MILOSEVIC TRIAL DISCUSSION ARCHIVE
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————————————————————————————— Former Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic is on trial for war crimes in the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia at The Hague. This marks the first time a head of state has been personally prosecuted before an international criminal court. Is Slobodan Milosevic getting a fair trial? ———————————————————————————— NOTICE: Comments posted to this discussion board are solely the responsibility of individual posters, and not of JURIST, its owner, operators, host or staff. JURIST reserves the right to block or remove posts that are in violation of law or that advocate illegal acts, that are obscene, disruptive, defamatory, threatening, harassing or abusive, that are in breach of intellectual property rights, rights of publicity or rights of privacy, that are advertisements or solicitations, or that are not related to the topic being discussed. ———————————————————————————— discussion archive Friday November 01, 2002 at 3:38 am Yes, a prime example of a half-truth: "Krajina Serbs helped the Bosnian Serbs around Bihac." The population group that the Serbs went to help were Bosnian Muslims, followers of Fikret Abdic, who wanted to retake Bihac, which had been captured by the Bosnian Muslim government. So what do we have? Fighting between Muslims and Muslims - alliance between Muslims and Serbs. Now, obviously this is not a "general knowledge quiz" (as long as Milosevic is the winner), but let us come back to the chronology. "On December 22, 1990 Croatia promulgated the new constitution, and the Krajina Serbs declared autonomy." Could these events be interconnected? Did the new constitution guarantee the equal rights of the Serbs, which as Pero points out, they had since the State of the Slovenians, Croats and Serbs? Well, surely they should have had equal rights. Even the "international community" demanded that. Indeed, Croatia went so far as to agree to incorporate the Serbian autonomy to the legislation, but it had a ingenious method to circumvent it: it drove the Serbs out. So the Serb autonomy stood in the legislation all right, but there were no Serbs to apply it to. And what was the excuse for driving out the Serbs? I guess the excuse was that the Serbs had declared autonomy in contravention of the new Croatian constitution. That is to say, before the international community came to their aid. And that is to say, in contravention of the same constitution which deprived them of their rights. You are not going to believe this. The Serbs had their own UN-protected safe havens in Croatia, the way the Muslims had ones in Bosnia. Only, the were called UN protected areas (UNPAs). Now, why would the UN go to such lengths to protect the Serbs, if the Serbs were clearly the genocidal bastards that they are made to be? I quote: "UNPROFOR is deployed in certain areas in Croatia, designated as United Nations Protected Areas (UNPAs), in which the United Nations Security Council judged that special interim arrangements were required to ensure that a lasting cease-fire was maintained. The UNPAs are areas in which Serbs constitute the majority or a substantial minority of the population and where inter-communal tensions have led to armed conflict. There are three UNPAs: Eastern Slavonia, Western Slavonia and Krajina." Later the UNPROFOR mandate was enlarged as follows: "On 30 June 1992, the Security Council, by its resolution 762 (1992), authorized UNPROFOR to undertake monitoring functions in the 'pink zones' - certain areas of Croatia controlled by the JNA and populated by then largely by Serbs, but which were outside the agreed UNPA boundaries." Clearly, the JNA is at fault here, because UNPROFOR had to support it. And to cut a long story short: "On 22 January 1993, the Croatian Army launched an offensive in a number of locations in the southern part of UNPROFOR's Sector South and the adjacent pink zones'. The Croatian Government stated that it took this action out of impatience with the slow progress of negotiations in respect of various economic facilities in and adjacent to the UNPAs and 'pink zones'." And now the 1000-dollar question: Who is the guilty party? Why, the JNA of course. The refined Croat mind argues that because one of UNPROFOR's objectives was to ensure "the withdrawal of the JNA from all of Croatia and the demilitarization of the UNPAs", the Serbs are to blame. Don't say that the demilitarization was slow and this justified the Croat attack. The Serbs could say that of the safe havens in Bosnia. The difference is that nobody listens to them. Read the whole document at http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/dpko/co_mission/unprof_b.htm . And to show that ICTY is really a UN organ (just kidding), it is worth noting that whenever the UN devises a plan of some kind, it is the ICTY that punishes those it was meant to protect (unless they are Muslims). It is now the Serbs that get indicted for the Croat offensive. At least there is some consistency here: the ICTY indicts the Serbs for fighting the Albanians, whose terrorist activities were condemned from SC resolution 1160(1998) onwards. It is astonishing that the Croats now tell us to "get real" (or maybe it is the Australian school system). When will it be their turn? They say they are not Slavs and that Croatia is not part of the Balkans. If this is the premise, why should anyone believe anything they say? Or what kind of sources can you invoke to support the claim that the Croats are not Slavs and Croatia is not part of the Balkans? Everyone who knows anything about the Croats and Croatia knows that Croats are Slavs and Croatia is in the Balkans. The Croat delusions remind me of the arguement that Arkan was the biggest bastard in the Balkans because "about 38 shots" (?) were fired at him. This supposedly shows that the popular conception of Arkan is right! (And then somebody accused me of using tea leaves!) What makes the war in the Balkans so gripping is that it is the "little differences" that make the greatest fights. I am sure that I am dismissed as an idle dreamer, but to me the Croats, the Muslims and the Serbs are all the same! (It is time somebody spoke out!) That means that the stupidest war of the 20th century (at least in Europe) was the war for Croatian independence, only surpassed in its stupidity by the war in Bosnia. What makes the Croats so special? Is it that the Croats wear the wedding-ring in the left hand and the Serbs in the right hand? If so, it should be obvious that Germany couldn't be behind the Croatian independence, because many Germans wear the wedding ring in the right hand. I am not sure in which hand the Muslims wear it. I guess it is in the right hand, because the Croats and the Muslims formed a Federation in Bosnia. Oh the incomparable Teutonic maturity that the Croats have! To me the Croats have the most oriental outlook in Europe, if the wedding-ring was the cause of all the fighting. It reminds me of a story in the Arabian nights. It is called "What a drop of honey brought about". And why can the Muslims and the Bosniaks now pretend that they are the weak and sympathetic party, after all they have done? The reason is simple: there are many more Serbs than Croats and Muslims. Of course the Croats and the Muslims had to form a Federation in Bosnia to stand up to the Serbs, who were numerically stonger! And now the luminous Western idea is that Serbs have to oppressed outside Serbia (let alone in Serbia), because there are so many of them outside Serbia. The wedding-ring can't be the real problem. I would go as far as to say that of course the difference between the Serbs and the Croats is not the wedding-ring! It is not the alphabet. It is the money. The Croats have money - at least compared to the Serbs. Money was the reason that even the Croats tried to solve the Kosovo crisis: the war in the Balkans cost them money! On the other hand, money explains why the Croats remain so singularly unmoved by the bombing of the Serbs and the claims that the Serbs now make. Of course the Serbs won't get the reparations for damages awarded, because the Serbs have always been poor! The devastation in Serbia only underlines the intrinsic difference that exists between the Croats and the Serbs: the Serbs are poor. By the same token, it is ridiculous to complain about the lack of freedom of speech in Yugoslavia. Look at us! Where could we discuss these things, if it were not on this forum? The freedom of speech is not curtailed only in present-day Croatia, but everywhere in the West. That must be the Croatian gift to the Western civilization. So the Serbs must have seen immediately where the Croat mind was heading. They had got the necessary experience in WW II. Once the Croats started to see non-existent differences between the Serbs and the Croats, at least differences that too little to justify anything that happened afterwards, the Serbs knew that the Croatian independence was sure to happen sooner or later. I think it is plausible that this is why SR Krajina was declared shortly after Tudjman won the elections. Or was it at the instigation of the independence of SR Krajina that Croatia declared independence? I doubt it very, very much. And if we are allowed to argue from the perspective of what happened later, then dig this. The whole lump of Krajina, Banija etc. decided to join the Federation of Serbia and Montenegro on May 12, 1991. So don't tell me that the Serbs didn't want to preserve Yugoslavia. Serbia and Montenegro was all that was in practice left of it. It was the Croats who dropped their Yugoslav guises. Mesic didn't even want to be sworn in as a Yugoslav president (maybe because such a position would have been interpreted as continued oppression of the Croats by the Serbs). I don't know if Milosevic was a war-monger or a peace-maker. To me he seems to be the latter. But as everybody knows, that doesn't matter. It is not the war that is on trial here, but the war crimes. It is futile to accuse him of inconsistency. The point he is trying to make is that it is his accusers who can't make up their minds about him. First they used him as a peace-maker, and now that he is no longer needed, he is discarded as war-maker. Who is contradicting himself? His accusers. And to quote the Latin phrase again: allegans contraria non est audiendum, he who alleges contrary things must not be heard. Only, if that maxim were followed, ICTY couldn't function as a UN body, because it is now hunting those the Security Council, the most important UN organ, was trying to help when the war started. Jari Nousiainen Finland Friday November 01, 2002 at 4:05 am LATEST: Hearing cancelled, Mr. Milosevic complaining of exhaustion at the detention center, in the words of judge May (NATO) who was sick on Wednesday himself. Judge May issues an order, the trial chamber being concerned about the accused, about the completion of the trial and wants in seven days submissions from the parties on the future conduct of the case in order to expeditiously bring it to its conclusion. Prosecutor Mr. Nice (NATO) seems very ready to comply . . .amici Tapuskevic says Mr. Milosevic should be included in the decision prompting Mr. May (NATO) to clarify Mr. Milosevices rights. Is the end nearer? Gogol Charlemagne Conn. USA Friday November 01, 2002 at 4:15 am Mesic? "Croatia’s President Mesic gives evidence" Click HERE Gogol Charlemagne Conn. USA Friday November 01, 2002 at 5:01 am An excerpt from Gogol's link (one of the many that would be worth quoting): "The indictment against Milosevic regarding Croatia conveniently only covers 1991-92—thus preventing discussion on Croatia’s ethnic cleansing of the Krajina and US involvement." Jari Nousiainen Finland Friday November 01, 2002 at 6:26 am This, what you quote above Jari, did not prevent the prosecution to introduce and use documents dated in 1994 and 1995 as I pointed out few days ago. While it is clear the judges want to shorten the trial altogether, the scorpion seized the opportunity this morning to sing the virtues of the 92bis procedure, which allows the introduction of evidence in written form without cross-examination, a practice the judges have ruled out reinforcing the right of Mr. Milosevic to cross examen the people behind their statements. This Mr. Nice (NATO) would like to shorten the trial by giving all evidence in written form and presumably including the NATO newspapers and the NGO's its finances ! Gogol Charlemagne Conn. USA Friday November 01, 2002 at 6:34 am I just don't undertstand the judges, all what they have to do is to tell Carla del Ponte the following: Since February 12 the prosecution has produced nothing near to prove the indictement. The indictment it self can't be produced as evidence as you have in various occasions tried to do with various witnesses, therefor this case is simply dismissed and Mr. Milosevic is set free! Gogol Charlemagne Conn. USA Friday November 01, 2002 at 6:50 am I can also submit to this tribunal that perhaps Mr. Milosevic could be in better health and not so exhausted if he was, as he should not under detention but free on bail or other wise to conduct his self defence, where he could have an office, legal staff in The Hague, enjoy the company of his choice and be given some of the benefits of the doubts nstead of been treated as if he had already been convicted. Gogol Charlemagne Conn. USA Friday November 01, 2002 at 7:52 am Great post Jari. I am amazed at the depth of your knowledge and your great ability to put it on paper. Gogol your link on Mesic is well worth reading. Thank you.A point concerning Fikret Abdic and his forces around Bihac should be made. My understanding is that all three ethnic groups supported his aims and were members of his army. According to Mesic’s testimony money was being siphoned off from Dalmatia’s tourist industry to Serbia. Some I am sure was but now it is siphoned off to Germany and other international hotel chains. At least the Serbs had some claims to it since the development of Dalmatian tourism industry was built on the back of the Serbian and Croatian farmer. Dalmatia, after WWII was one of the poorest parts of Yugoslavia. If one looks at who emigrated from Yugoslavia in the last century one will find that majority are from Dalmatia and the Dalmatian Islands. They left because of poverty. The only way to get from place to place in Dalmatia prior to WWII was by boat or by donkey. WWII Dalmatian joke: A donkey was blocking a narrow path for a jeep in which Tito Rankovic, Kardelj and Djilas were riding. Tito ordered Rankovich and Kardelj to get the donkey off the road. They pushed and shoved and were unable to move the animal. They came back to the jeep apologizing. At this moment Djilas came to their rescue. Bending close to the donkey’s ear without anyone seeing Djilas touched the donkey’s ear with a burning cigarette and the donkey took off up the hill. The foursome continued their journey with Tito asking Djlas what was it that he whispered in the Donkey’s ear that made him take off up the hill. Djilas said that he could not tell him because he was concerned about how Tito would react to the answer. Tito assured Djilas not to be concerned, there would be no repercussions for his answer. Djilas replied, “I asked the donkey if he wanted to join the Communist Party and that is why he took off”. As I stated Dalmatia was the poorest part of Yugoslavia. Its tourist development was paid for by the agricultural sector of Banat, Backa Slavonia and central Serbia. Industrial development in any developing nation is initially paid for by agriculture and Yugoslavia was no different. Mesic’s narrow view of who paid for what does not examine this aspect nor does it examine who purchases Croat and Slovene industrial products. For Mesic, like most politicians, blaming others inflames nationalism and wins support for your cause. Alberta, one of our provinces, is experiencing a severe drought and the farmers are crying because of the losses that they are experiencing. Because Alberta is our main oil producing region the premier of this province is up in arms over the Prime Minister’s signing the Kyoto Protocol. The premier blames Ottawa for the lack of subsidies for the drought hit farmers but refuses to do anything about the oil industry that cause of the drought in the first place. The farmer swallowed the premier’s logic and to them Ottawa is to blame just like the Croats swallowed Mesic’s logic and believe Belgrade is to blame. Blaming the other fellow works. McCarthy, Hitler, Mesic, Milosevic and Bush know this. Milosevic is the scapegoat for national interests of others. Walter Trkla Kamloops BC Canada Friday November 01, 2002 at 8:55 am From Jari's post [on the reasons for separation of Croatia from Yugoslavia - it applies to other republics and regions as well] "The wedding-ring can't be the real problem. I would go as far as to say that of course the difference between the Serbs and the Croats is not the wedding-ring! It is not the alphabet. It is the money." True. I think one should add to the list of major separation forces also the religion (Croats, Slovens - Catholics, Izetbegovic's Bosnians and Kosovars - Moslems, Serbs - Orthodox Christians). D S USA Friday November 01, 2002 at 10:45 am Taken from http://www.freeserbia.com/bnews/bnews.php?language=english10/31/2002 18:30 CET -- Milosevic TrialCandic: JNA Supplies With ArmsThe Hague - In the continuance of the trial, former FRY president Slobodan Milosevic read letters where former Prime Minister of Republic Srpska Krajina Borislav Mikelic denied the statements of today’s witness Slobodan Lazarevic. Mikelic denied that the Supreme Defense Council of Republic Srpska, that he was a member of, was commanded by Yugoslav general army headquarters and its head general-colonel Momcilo Perisic. He also denied the army and citizens were allowed to retreat across Croatian territory. Mikelic stated in his letter that Lazarevic was just a translator and the he had no official function. Lazarevic said during testimony that the government, police and RSK army got their orders from Belgrade, that is, Milosevic’s cabinet, State Security Service and VJ general headquarters.Bosnic denied he had anything to do with Lazarevic. He said Lazarevic was an emigrant, so he was not in position to work for counter-intelligence service of the Yugoslav army’, and that he got arms from anyone. Bosnic also stated his relations with JNA and RSK police were poor. He said RSK police had contacts with Croatian police. Lazarevic repeated he was in very good relations with Bosnic and that he got the arms necessary for ‘elimination’ of Croatian extremists. To Milosevic’s question whether the description of Pejovic, a ‘colonel’ of Serbian Volunteer Guard, as a blonde, 40-year old man was correct, Lazarevic confirmed. Milosevic replied that Pejovic was called ‘Peja the gipsy’ by his friends because of his dark hair and dark complexion. ‘You never saw the man’, concluded Milosevic. The witness replied he met Pejovic at least three times and that he was always neatly trimmed, so he concluded he must have been blond. Milosevic also said the exchange of bodies between Muslim and Serbian side that the witness spoke about, ‘never took place’ and that Lazarevic never visited ‘Pauk’ headquarters in Petrova Gora. The accused demanded that Lazarevic presented his diplomatic passport, the one he allegedly had. ‘You deceive the court saying you had some significant function’, said Milosevic.In the last part of cross-examination, Milosevic asked Lazarevic ‘how long he worked for British intelligence’. ‘I must laugh now… Of course I never worked for the British intelligence’, replied the witness. Prosecutor Dermoth Groome had an additional question whether he ever worked for British or any other intelligence. The witness denied. Amicus Curiae Branislav Tapuskovic noticed that Lazarevic wears a uniform of British army officer on two photographs. The pictures, taken during 90’s in republic Srpska Krajina, were distributed to prosecutors. Lazarevic said he was a collector of uniforms and that he wore that uniform on a private party in his apartment and during unofficial banquet in Slunj, where the photographs were taken. He added he had Yugoslav army insignia on the British uniform and no one of the present Yugoslav army officers had any objections to that.Milosevic claimed the witness participated in numerous frauds in Belgrade after his return from RSK in 1995. He said the wanted circulars were issued after him, and Lazarevic denied. He precised he lived in Belgrade until 1999 at the same address and was always available to police. He replied positively to Milosevic’s question whether he lived in Belgrade representative office of British LSA company. Commenting Milosevic’s suggestions that Lazarevic witnessed for material benefits, prosecutor Groome asked the witness whether he lived better at the moment, at his new location where he resided for reasons of protection, than he used to live before, in Belgrade. ‘I had much better living standard in Belgrade. I left ‘Porsche’, ‘Mercedes’, everything I had in Belgrade and left with a small suitcase’ replied the witness, adding that he worked as a surveillance officer at an international airport outside FRY’. Lazarevic said he ‘believed in Serbian cause with all his heart’ in 1990. He thinks of himself as of a ‘loyal Serb’ even nowadays.The prosecution called Mustafa Candic as a witness in the continuance of trial. He is a former JNA major who worked in Counter-Intelligence Group (KOG) of Air Force and Anti-Aircraft Defense (RV PVO) in Zemun. Prosecutor Geoffrey Nice reported Candic was noted as protected witness C-034 prior to that moment. At the beginning of the trial, Candic said he was positioned in KOG as JNA captain in 1988. He left the service and the army in 1992, after he saw with his own eyes that JNA sided with the Serbian nation in Croatia and Bosnia’. He precised he was promoted to the rank of major in 1990 and appointed to be one of four assistants of KOG head, colonel Tomislav Cuk. Candic said he was a member of KOG sector for interior enemies. His area of responsibility was Kosovo and 19 municipalities in northeast Bosnia, but he was also authorized to conduct investigations on other locations. According to pre-trial memo from the prosecution, Candic should, among other things, speak about ‘propaganda unit within RV PVO that was used to create propaganda: to induce hate, fear and violence between ethnic groups in Croatia, with the final intention of acquiring general purposes of the accused and other participants in the joint criminal enterprise’. The document precised that propaganda unit had a code name ‘Opera’.Witness C-034 should also speak about officers of JNA Security Management who were involved in Serb leaders’ activities in Croatia, like Milan Martic, Goran Hadzic, Milan Babic and Radoslav Brdjanin. Among other things, they ‘secured weapons and coordinated military activities of defense structures in Croatia through those leaders’. ‘Those political leaders coordinated their military strategies directly with the accused or his agents’, said the memo of prosecution, referring to witness C-034. In the continuance of the trial, Candic said he learned in KOG center in Bihac about the special executive action ‘Proboj 1’, which was supposed to arm the Serbian population of Lika, Banija and Kordun. The witness said the action was managed by lieutenant-colonel Dusan Smiljanic and his deputy major Cedo Knezevic, both from KOG second department. He added the action was conducted through KOG associate and leader of Serbian Democratic Party ‘who came in person with their demands for arms and ammunition for actions against Croats’. Candic precised the arms were taken from BiH Territorial Defense depots. His personal estimates say that about 20 000 pieces of arms were distributed. He added there were exact records about arms distribution, and that a report was sent to JNA Security head, general Aleksandar Vasiljevic. Michael Thomas London UK Friday November 01, 2002 at 12:06 pm We've written about Krajina Serbs, however no one so far said about Serbs that lived in Croatia, and had roots from Krajina. Nobody so far said were ethnical cleansing started in the last war. Well it started in Slovenia. When they proclaimed independence they fired most of the Serbs. Some of them stayed but vast majority left. These who stayed had to sue whomever fired them and years later some of them were “rehabilitated”. Then it was Serbs from Croatia who had to leave. First they got fired. There were circulating faxes first to radio stations, all of them get wiped out, and they became centralized in Zagreb by Croatian Radio. Couple existing TV disappeared and continue to broadcast under “Croatian TV”, then all newspapers have changed their editors and management. In schools Cyrillic and Serbian language was banned. People of Serbian nationalities cannot teach Croatian language and History, subjects like philosophy, sociology, psychology, geography and logic in many schools were rolled out. Shuffling was meant and eventually offered to Serbs firing. Then when HDZ controlled media, they started wide campaign against police, JNA and secret services claiming that there was no national proportion in these sensitive services, that Serbs outnumbered Croats. (Of course they outnumbered Croats since they were majority in Yugoslavia – however not in the management positions. – At that moment in JNA chief of staff was Anton Tus – Croat – one that would be really useful as an honest witness on this trial) Police and Secret service were under Croatian jurisdiction but army was Federal. (Yet they were claiming that JNA was aggressor – so they intentionally put themselves against JNA i.e. against Yugoslavia – there was nothing unusual Ivane since HDZ was financed mainly by Croatian emigrants and neo ustashi who saw JNA as enemy since 1941.) In Zagreb was a soccer game Dinamo(Zagreb) versus Crvena Zvezda(Belgrade) -May 1990- It was traditionally on their duel that “Zvezda” supporters who were Serbian came in great numbers, so, HDZ organized attack on the Serbian supporters, Dinamo supporters were using rocks and bottles to throw them on Zvezda supporters, police intervened and in one moment even Dinamo’s player in the front of cameras kick a policemen. Later that incident was used for weeks to justify firings Serbs from police, since Croatian media explained that police did not protect Croats).Then they promised 2000 DM salary for any policemen who join Croatian police.(The average workers salary was then at around 300 DM).Boljkovas as minister of Internal Affairs said – “It is our army”When they established control over security forces: Police, Secret Services and TO (It was a part of the army that was not under federal jurisdiction, they started killings of Serbs. Then during 1990 – hundreds of thousands of Serbs and Yugoslavians left Croatia to many foreign countries – nobody never will know even close number – and nobody considered them as victims of ethnical cleansing.Since humiliation and killings widespread the first deployment of JNA was constitutional and approved by Yugoslavian presidency to divide Serbs from Krajina from Croatian police. If Milosevic was a warmonger and if he had control over the army and if he had a plan for Greater Serbia, he would during 1990 when they (Federal Government) had enough information about crimes that were committed by Croatian various armed groups and official police forces, including smuggling of guns from Hungary into Yugoslavia as sovereign state, they would (Federal Government) under the pressure from Serbian population proclaim imminent war situation and proclaim public mobilization What they had obligation under Yugoslavian constitution and under criminal low to do. But they did not. Then most of the Serbs from Croatia would not leave country they would join armed forces since such a call was as well sanctioned through laws, then as well many Croats would think which forces to join. Milosevic was as well obliged to do so to protect SFRJ integrity. Milosevic was as well obliged to do so to protect Republic of Serbia. Milosevic was as well obliged to do so to protect Serbian people. Milosevic was as well obliged to do so to protect UNPA Zones like Jari pointed it out (UNPROFOR had to support JNA in order to protect Serbian population). Tudjman was not strongly supported in Croatia. He buildup public opinion through media, (most likely designed in the west – not sure it was only the PIR companies since some of the Croatian TV spots from 10 years ago appeared during Kosovo war on CNN in a very similar fashion) and spreading violence through the country. Federal government lacked determination, and they were afraid to use force, among other things it was obstructed by Mesic, like he says, but that would imply that he had more influence on the Federal government than Milosevic did. – Anyone opinion? LEGALLY When I spoke about it with my friends – that Serbs did not use what they had available all of them say that would only speed up a western intervention. Anyhow Serbs in Croatia were in much grater numbers than Serbs in Krajina. Krajina for Serbs in Croatia was more like a symbol of the Serbian existence and equality. Krajina mostly was a poor region rarely inhabited; its inhabitants were leaving that region for centuries. In last century most of its people were forced to leave, even after 1945. There was something like a saying “Eight Offensive”; in WWII for any offensive that was launched by Germany and Ustashe Serbs had to leave their home. There were only seven offensives during WWII – “Eight Offensive” refers to Communist party politics to reallocate Serbian population from Krajina to Serbia mainly Vojvodina. So Serbs were seeing “Krajina autonomy” as their recognition of the nation.Croats new it. – and you know the end. Ethnical cleansing started in Slovenia and proceeded how the war was spreading Croatia, Krajina, Bosnia, Kosovo.Well it did not happened where Milosevic was a president. He must be tried for it since he must have some secret plan for it. What about those who did not have a secret plan – they just committed ethnical cleansing. The conclusion is: he must be tried since he must have had a secret plan. Others? – No; they did not have a secret plan they just did it. Pero Peric Canada Friday November 01, 2002 at 12:24 pm Correction: The paragraph should be: "Federal government lacked determination, and they were afraid to use forceLEGALLY , among other things it was obstructed by Mesic, like he says, but that would imply that he had more influence on the Federal government than Milosevic did. – Anyone opinion?" Pero Peric Canada Saturday November 02, 2002 at 1:45 am There was a mention about a Canadian lawyer to be hired by Milosevic team( Pravda article).Anybody can give some more info. Vasile Vasile Ianos NJ Saturday November 02, 2002 at 3:29 am Walter....huh...???australia?????what you don't know of i suggest you don't speak of.now....i have admitted i don't know a lot of.....Yugoslavia.I know of what I think....i won't say it again.Obviously you are all on a crusade...fair enough.i respect that.I think the ICTY is silly and no-one should be indicted..because it is silly trying to legalise the war.it is also unfair on the serbs to be doing it in this way.i suggest to you..that although you all know what went on....that you don't really know....and are all just a bit fed up with the imperialists of USA and NATO controlling everything.vera said it herself....she was there..and her relatives were in vukovar and they didn't know what happened....so apparently nobody does. and it is all lies spread by pro-croats against the serbs.jari..don't try and play logic into it.....nationalism is a sickness as walter said.....if this is so....then the logic used by all sides was rather skewed (and all sides were nationalistic)....and to try and explain it logically, or legally as they do in the ICTY is just plain lunacy.oh hey....is the 3 fingered serbian sign of victory uniquely serbian...or is it Yugoslavian???cos the serbs were doing it a hell of a lot during the war. ivan kokotovic sydney australia Saturday November 02, 2002 at 11:59 am The right of the public to know about the health condition of Mr. Milosevic following the near or heart attack he suffered on Friday November 1 is being denied by the media and the Tribunal So many so "called human rights" organisations involved in following his case are incapable to dennounce the fact Mr. Milosevic is denied the most basic rights during his illegal detention. It is time to protest this practice, silence is not an option! During last weekend demonstrations against the planed war against Iraq by the United States, where over 200,000 people participated many speeches were given, many international issues were dennounced, many past and futures injustices were dennounced but one major issue was not addressed: THE CRIMINAL AGGRESSION OF NATO AGAINST SOVEREIGN YUGOSLAVIA AND THE UNJUST AND ILLEGAL TRIAL OF YUGOSLAVIA'S PRESIDENT SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC The so called "left" has fallen pray of the criminal propaganda system! Gogol Charlemagne Conn. USA Sunday November 03, 2002 at 3:49 am Pero....so there were no Croatians living in Krajina???and...oh yes I remember that Dinamo vs Red Star game....Arkan was the bodyguard of the Coaching Staff from Red Star.You know....most of the Bad Blue Boys were probably the first on the front line for Croatian forces.While most of the Red Star supporters club were signed up into Arkan's Tigers.The Red Star supporters were not so innocent as you would have me believe.I also remember it was Zvonimir Boban who fly-kicked the policeman...He did so because the policeman was chasing a Dinamo supporter. So...you now say Milosevic was obliged to protect the Krajina Serbs...hhmmm...just like in 1995 hey.Also.....when did Tudjman offer the Krajina Serbs a peaceful reintegration settlement into Croatia? on a number of occasions.Perhaps in the month preceeding "Oluje"?????Remember..this was contested land...Croatia saw it as theirs....the Serbs saw it as theirs....an autonomous Krajina within Croatia....which allowed the resettlement and return of Croatians...under the auspices of UNPROFOR would have been a good option at the time....Tudjman offered it to them.....although we know he really wanted the Serbs out.....why didn't the serbs take up his offer???I don't hate Milosevic...I just think he is too implicated and too clever to be as innocent as everyone here believes.Having said that....I don't think he should be at the ICTY....and I don't think it should exist.because everyone...was implicated. Ivan Kokotovic Sydney Australia Sunday November 03, 2002 at 12:55 pm Koko, you lived in the antipodes for too long! Tiphaine Dickson is yet another player kept away from the main public, another continent, another people and yet the same JUDGES and the same CRIMINALS as is the case with Mr. Milosevic. Click HERE more an early but not out dated reference. Gogol Charlemagne Conn. USA Sunday November 03, 2002 at 1:22 pm Currently we are raising (CLICK HERE ) to bring Quebec Attorney Tiphaine Dickson to meet with President Milosevic at The Hague. We hope she can work out of the Netherlands, assisting President Milsoevic in the preparation of evidence and helping organizethe upcoming defense part of the "trial." Gogol Charlemagne Conn. USA Sunday November 03, 2002 at 1:27 pm Over two weeks ago I requested from thre office of our district Congress Representative a detailed account of how much money the US Government has directly contributed to financing the ICTY. No replay so far. Gogol Charlemagne USA Sunday November 03, 2002 at 9:27 pm Futher to the Gogal's link above,Here is Part II. Ian Davis Waterloo Canada Sunday November 03, 2002 at 9:41 pm Ivan my answer to your post was lost in cyberspace and I am sure that most of the people who post here are pleased about that since they must be tired of our bickering. So here I go again. Serious readers this is just an answer for Ivan. Australia ?????? It is a fact that water in a toilet swirls in the opposite direction south of the equator and it is a fact that your posts seem to swirl in the opposite direction from most of us who post on this page, but that is OK. Maybe you are on a higher moral ground but please provide us with evidence. It is a fact that Australian immigration laws were anti Oriental as recently as several years ago. It is also a fact that the record of Australia’s treatment of its indigenous population is appalling. In the last twenty years many touring rugby teams from Australia have come through Kamloops and some of the players and coaches have stayed at my place and you know Ivan there was not a single student or teacher on the tour who was an Aborigine. Why??? Do they only compete in boomerang throwing contests??? Both Australia and Canada have been criticized by the UN for their appalling treatment of their native people. Maybe, Ivan you and I need to become activists to promote equality in our own countries and let the Yugoslavs settle their own differences???? On the other hand, the UN has also stated that Canada and Australia are on top of their list as examples of the best place to live. I hope to visit Australia soon so I can see its beauty for myself. Ivan I am not crusading, I just happen to see things differently from you. I guess that is due to how we have been brought up and what we have read. I came to Canada when I was ten years old (1952). My uncle brought me up to judge Croats, Muslims and Serbs by their character rather than by their ethnicity and that is the standard that I use with everyone I meet. Ivan, you state that Vera “didn't know what happened” in Vukovar and I am sure we don’t know what has happened elsewhere. This is exactly what people are saying on this page and yet the media writes as if they were there and the propaganda (movies) and so on portrays events as documentaries when in reality most of the information is anecdotal. A cameraman can selectively show the same event from his own point of view and you and I will not know the difference unless we take time to investigate. I saw the same clip re the Red Star-Dynamo game but what I saw was a police officer trying to keep spectators off the field when Boban did his nationalist duty. I am sure you know about Prosenecki (Father Croat mother Serbian girlfriend Serbian) who wanted to play for Yugoslavia but after death threats to him and his family he played for Croatia. He was abused by his coaches, called a bastard and when he was no longer wanted he was cast aside like a (govno na cedilu – sheep dropping on a cheese cloth). Yes the three finger salute was used by the Serbs both in defeat and in victory just like the Croats used the V for victory sign. I guess they were both being polite and refrained from using the middle finger. I have seen Divac use the three finger salute when he scores a three pointer for the Sacramento Kinks but I am sure his intent was as nationalistic as Boban’s flying kick. I know two men here in Kamloops who speak from experience. One tells a story that his Croatian neighbors took him outside of town and used him for target practice, not to hit him but to see how close they could shoot. His wife was Croatian and she and his two daughters had to flee to Split to her family home in order not to be mistreated. The other man told me how on the front line at night the Serbs and Croats called to each other across the no man’s land asking about how the food was and how their families were because they knew each other. During the day some even met and exchanged t-shirts and went back to continue their front line patrols. Of course Ivan they are all implicated, including Milosevic, Tudjman and Isetbegovic and Clinton and Blair and so on and so on but why are only the Serbs in the docket?????? I believe in conspiracies Ivan and I believe Tudjman was eliminated so there would be one less problem for NATO. Many of us on this post are simply asking questions and as far as I am concerned a good question is always better than a good answer. Walter Trkla Kamloops BC Canada Monday November 04, 2002 at 3:58 am DS, let us add to the list another factor: football. So now we have on our list the following items: wedding-rings, money, religion and football. The differences between the Muslims, Croats and Serbs are about as deep as Red Star and Dynamo. I arrived at the football analogy in the weekend even before I read the posts above. I think a lot of the sectarian violence can be reduced to plain football hooliganism, with or without football. I didn't know about Tiphaine Dickson. Seems a great choice. You know who she is instantly likened to? The "Lady at The Hague": Madam Louise Arbour from Montreal. Both are Quebecers. Both are women, so now the prosecution is deprived of the female bonus. And besides, Dickson has worked at the Rwanda Tribunal, just like Chris Black, another Canadian. And first and foremost, Milosevic now seems to take his defense seriously. Another thing I didn't know was the near heart attack of Milosevic. The Headquarter Agreement between Holland and ICTY doesn't seem to state anything about the medical care, so apparently the medical care is no-one's responsibility. The doctors are Dutch, but appently the Dutch government can shift the blame to ICTY and vice versa for any round-the-clock-halogen-lamp-induced death. Ivan, maybe Tudjman offered the Krajina Serbs a deal, as you say, but then I would be eager to hear details. Even if the Serbs turned the offer down can in no way excuse the mass deportation and the attack on the UNPROFOR-protected zone. But what happened at the Federal level, one would really have to centre on the Croats in the Federal government. We hear a lot of how Milosevic had the "official and/or effective control" of Yugoslavia. As Pero pointed out, one forgets that the JNA chief of staff was a Croat (Anton Tus). And the prosecution can parade such non-entities as Zoran Lilic (is he still alive?) and argued that Milosevic had the real power. But they can't say that Milosevic could bully Mesic! Indeed, with Mesic at the helm (from May 16, 1991 until the breakup), it is obvious that the Croats were running Yugoslavia in her last days. And indeed, they are just as much implicated as everybody else. So why do the Croats get away so easily? Marinic's case was deferred to local courts. Why is that? Part of the explanation can be deduced from the indictment. It says in § 2: "From at least 3 July 1992, the Croatian Community of Herzeg-Bosna ('HZ-HB') declared itself an independent political entity inside the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina". So this was another of those undesirable political entities that had to be eliminated, and once again, an indictment was the way to do it. It is admirable that the indictment is so open about it. But luckily, Herceg-Bosna ceased to be a threat last year when the international troops closed down the Bosnian Croat bank, which was allegedly financing the independence movement. So Marinic was not important any more. Well, Marinic indictment is a story in itself. Jim Landale said that since Marinic was still at large, the case could be deferred to the local courts. There is a paradox even in that statement alone, but even a bigger contradiction with the indictment which says in § 7: "Zoran MARINIC also known as 'SVABO' was born on or about 6 June 1963 in the Ravan area of Busovaca and continues to live in Busovaca" Landale also said that the ICTY is now after the big fish. Well, yeah, if by big fish you mean the Serbs. How else could you explain the unsealing of the indictments against Popovic, Beara and Nikolic? Nikolic was a 2nd Lieutenant. And the prosecution's new policy must be slender consolation to Erdemovic, who was a simple soldier. But the list of the well-treated Croats goes on. Ante Gotovina was released on bail (I think). Whereas Sainovic and Ojdanic won't (reportedly). Janko Bobetko was not competent to stand trial, because he is too old (83). What is going on? It is obvious that the prosecution's policy reflects the interests of any given moment. Del Ponte took 20 indictments to Belgrade, but apparently they won't be released until the presidential election. The indictments in themselves are obviously motivated by Del Ponte's irritation at Kostunica, who she says doesn't deliver Mladic to her. Now compare the reluctance of Kostunica, who even denies the Serbs committed war crimes, to the suave Croatian government. Did you get it? Stipe Mesic was willing to testify! The first head of state in office who has ever wanted to do that! So isn't it clear that Del Ponte and Mesic had a deal of some kind (not too hard to guess what kind)? You scratch my back, and I'll scratch yours. Even Dick Dickers admitted (in the WSWS link given by Gogol) that the Mesic testimony isn't enough to put Milosevic behind bars, but it is the thought that counts (and Dickers sure knows a whole lot of what the prosecution thinks is important). Now, Del Ponte's witch hunt after the Serbs has some amusing features. Now she has such a fixation with Mladic that she forgets that it is not Milosevic's fault that he is at large. Yet, the whole ICTY, one might say, was about the regime change in Belgrade. So the cure (Kostunica) seems to be as bad as or worse than the disease (Milosevic). Is it now time to battle the cure with the disease and be nice to Milosevic for a change? Milosevic's fault was one political mistake. A gigantic one. And he is doing it in The Hague (at least until now). He doesn't recognize the realities. He doesn't recognize the tribunal. But the reason he is in the tribunal is that he didn't recognize the new independent states as they became independent. And intertwined with this mistake: he didn't apply for Yugoslav membership in the UN as a new state (which Kostunica did and was accepted). So all the obscurities about the state succession are Milosevic's fault. That meant that Yugoslavia became an outlaw state for a very simple reason: it was not recognized. See what happened when Yugoslavia was finally accepted as a new state in the UN. The so-called "diplomatic recognition" also ensued. So these two things are closely linked. Milosevic failed in both respects. And what does one have to make of an army which belongs to a state that is not recognized? Isn't it like a joint criminal enterprise? Even if you regard (with good reason) yourself as defending your county, the "international community" won't buy it. Your a criminal just for that fact alone. Sure, the ICTY shouldn't let itself be led by considerations that have to do with the "justness" of the war, but it does. Hunting "war criminals" is the name of the game. Obviously, an unrecognized state cannot wage a lawful war, and the ICTY prosecution is instantly on the lookout for war crimes, while condoning those committed by more established entities. Nato can destroy all it wants with impunity, but heaven forbid that the Serbs should make one slight mistake! That is instantly a war crime. As I said, this is not the way ICTY should be doing business. There is a separate organ to deal with the legality of use of force, the ICJ, which in this case has been in effect eliminated. And the reason is basically the same, believe it or not, the problems pertaining to the Yugoslav state succession. So the Americans can bomb and cause collateral damage. HRW says that there were 500 deaths that could have been "avoided". That is a very important admission. It implies that Nato may not have caused these deaths intentionally, but at least there is some recklessness or negligence involved. What becomes of the matter? Nothing. After all, they are Americans, and Americans don't fight unjust wars. But does ICTY recognize such concepts as intentional, reckless and negligent? Sure thing. See the indictment of Popovic in § 39c: "The act or omission was unlawful and intentional, reckless, or grossly negligent." So clearly, something is not right in the prosecution's policy. Especially against the background of the 1994 agreement between the US and ICTY. But the problem is not just the prosecution's. As we know, the European Court of Human Rights ruled in Naletilic that the Statute and the Rules of the ICTY say that the ICTY guarantees a fair trial, so the ICTY trials are fair. However, the familiar principle nulla poena (no punishment without a legal provision) is openly violated, and the tribunal makes no bones about it. In the Erdemovic judgement it quoted post-WW-II Dutch case law: "On this point, the 1949 Netherlands Special Appeals court, seized of a line of defence based on the principle nulla poena sine lege in a case relating to a crime against humanity, expressed itself as follows: ...However, there is nothing absolute in that principle. Its operation may be affected by other principles whose recognition concerns equally important interests of justice." Well, well. How would the ECHR qualify that as a fair trial. The Dutch case law from 1949 precedes the European Convention on Human Rights o 1950, where the concept of fair trial was introduced. Besides, the nulla poena is recognized in the ICC Statute, so the ECHR could have applied a little anticipatory interpretation here (if it were not the ICTY's best and perhaps the only friend). If we want to go back to the post-WW-II case law, I think the Nuremberg trials ruled the establishment of the Croatian State in WW II illegal (I am not sure though). But this is already conceded, so let us not belabour the point. So there is a certain logic here, if one digs long enough. That is my crusade. What makes it so hard to discover the logic is the fact that everything is eclipsed by the hefty amount of bad faith. Obviously, the US and British governments think that everything is allowed in international relations, which is what makes the contribution of Bin Cheng's "requirements of good faith" so significant. And even without introducting the concept of bad faith, one could quite well argue that the US and Britain cannot argue that Yugoslavia was not recognized after the secession of Croatia etc. Their diplomatic representations continued in Belgrade quite normally. The rule is that diplomatic representation points invariably to recognition, even if from the lack of representation you can't deduce lack of recognition. So the US and Britain were precluded by estoppel (one of their own favourite legal terms) from withholding recognition from Yugoslavia. And that, in turn, comes down to the principle allegans contraria non est audiendus, he who alleges contrary things shall not be heard. Jari Nousiainen Finland Monday November 04, 2002 at 4:22 am Trial of Mr. Milosevic cancelled according to the4 ICTY web page. We, the world needs to know what is condition is! Gogol Charlemagne USA Monday November 04, 2002 at 6:57 am Walter....I like the name of that Kamloops.OK....i meant....when I said....you speak of what you don't know....in terms of myself.I have strong beliefs in the rights and priveledges of Aboriginal people and newly arrived immigrants.That is why when you say to me, "look at your own country" trust me I am..and I am ashamed to have people like our Prime Minister to call himself an Australian.The guy can't even say sorry to the Aboriginals for their mistreatment.It wasn't until 1967 that Aboriginals were citizens of this country.I work in a Community Centre in inner city Sydney, and daily deal with under serviced Aboriginal peoples...I have become friends with a few.OK..enough of that....now that you see you have me wrong with the Australian point of view..trust me guys I am way GREEN-LEFT.Also..the Australian Rugby League team has had many Aboriginal players. Some of the greats have been of such heritage. currently there would be one.but he switched to the rival code of Rugby Union.Our current Rugby Union side has at least one...if not two Aboriginals.Our country has 19 million people..of which less than half a million are of aboriginal descent.Thats a fairly good conversion rate.Not to mention that most aboriginal kids wanna play Australian Football (aussie rules)..with the league flooded with talented Aboriginal players....disproportionate to their numbers in the populace. In the Northern Territory...there is mandatory sentencing....that is a youth can be jailed indefefinately..without trial for an extended period of time..for a first offense...designed to keep young aboriginal kids in line with the harsh penal codes.more than 50% of deaths in custody are of aboriginals..mostly suicide...none of these issues is being addressed by a federal govt...more interested in polluting our environment to get more GDP....to bolster up or defense so we can keep out the boat people and terrorists.As with Yugoslavia....i am in agreement with your points...it is lopsided in the media....i have always said so....i just believe that your balanced opinion..is still not balanced, however well it is crafted...that is what i am trying to point out. your dismissal of evidence seems too frequent and ultimate to be the real truth...despite holding as its constitution the truth.i also have some main sticking points in the discussion..however.it is good that this is what it is...a discussion....it isn't bickering.i am glad you can accept my points... as much as i accept yours.i hope your real wish is for the best possible outcome of the whole Yugoslav mess..and that is peace.it can only be achieved by letting the nations there pursue peaceful existence. Ivan Kokotovic Sydney Australia Monday November 04, 2002 at 10:07 am Go to this page http://emperors-clothes.com/gilwhite/d1.htm for more on Milosevic's health. Walter Trkla Kamloops BC Canada Monday November 04, 2002 at 12:12 pm Ivane, I appreciate you post here. We need to see different opinions. – I would like you to clarify some things about Bleiburg too. The thing what I wrote about Milosevic was obliged to protect Krajina Serbs. - That was UN Security Council resolution. The fact that Tudjman offered autonomy to Serbs – Tudjman was not authorized to do so.– That’s why there was a whole international community involved in it. Croatia would never attack UN and Krajina if there was no conspiracy and US in fact run the show.– Krajina existed before Tudjman and it had its achievements in all constitutional elements of a state. Now one cannot go back and regress one nation or national minority current status. That is to say one cannot go and take German’s sovereignty then offer to German some type of contract. Do you see what was wrong in Tudjman’s offer?– The fact that you admit that Tudjman did not want Serbs in Krajina was obvious to Serbs as to Croats – that was the part of the problem too. UN was there to make sure that Serbs in Krajina were protected. Only media in Croatia showed it differently. Again it was US game to attack Krajina and UN – but they had to make sure that Milosevic will not intervene as he was obliged to do.– – Dayton – legalized ethnical cleansing.– – Again as I said the any offerings from Croatian side regarding Serbian rights was only to two regions Knin and Glina, not the whole Krajina. Elimination of these regions means elimination of the national rights, so that implies: What Croats’ true intensions were behind these offerings?– Croatia in ex Yugoslavia was constitutionally the state of the Croats and Serbs. Croats wanted to secede from Yugoslavia (Illegal act), they want Croatia to have AVNOJ’s borders, but not AVNOJ’s national recognitions, they wanted if possible to take a part of Bosnia, and they did not want Serbs in the Constitution – – – That is my argument: it was not up to Tudjman or any other Croat to decide how much autonomy one can have, and take from AVNOJ only what they wanted. – Why the Europe and World allowed to be done that way – It’s for somebody to think.– – You said that there were Croats in the Krajina too. – Any census about Serbs in Croatia has to go from the 1914 and be based on the State of Slovenians Croats and Serbs from 1918 – Why – otherwise you would legalize genocide. (There is no need to list everything what happened to Serbs since then).– Again – Krajina was just a symbol of Serbian national recognition in Croatia. In my posts you’ll see that I am not pointing Krajina as a main problem. It was things surrounding Krajina issue. The main problem was inside Croatia. – Croats considered Serbs in Krajina as aggressors – so aggressor is the enemy and you don’t give him any rights except when you have to. – That’s fine,– Serbs inside Croatia who did not take the part in the “aggression” should not be considered enemy and should enjoy equal rights to any citizens, but they were expelled in hundreds of thousands. Why? – Obviously their only guilt was - they were Serbs and this is what makes such politics as unjust. – and when you add to it all Croatian insignia one get a full picture.– Then under these circumstances the rebels’ activities in Krajina could be considered legally as reprisals and a protection of its own population. (Which is under Geneva Convention a legal means to turn aside a grater crime).– – The story about Croats refugees from Krajina was exaggerated and used to cover hundreds of thousands Serbs expelled from Croatia. – – Think about it; where and how many Croats lived in Krajina? Krajina had around 200 thousands people altogether, before war. – – In Croatia there was 600 thousands Serbs excluding Yugoslavians (add at least 200 thousands of Yugoslavians in Croatia that were of Serbian origin), now you have 100 –150 thousands Serbs in Croatia including Krajina with no Yugoslavians at all. (This was outcome only of the last war).– – There are other interesting facts about Croats and Serbs in Krajina. Hebrang, Krajacic and Bakaric new quite well for the Krajina problem. It was their idea for eight offensive. Even after 1945 (after Mile Budak’s activities) Slunj was mainly populated by Serbs. Some of them were moved to Serbia during eight offensive and later many finished on the “Goli Otok” , then they founded “army field” and they displaced thousands of Serbs, still they have not been satisfied and 1957 additional 257 families were moved to Vojvodina. Slunj became municipality in Krajina with Croats as majority (not great majority but majority) and it was the municipality that split nationality vise Krajina in two regions. Tudjman offering to Serbs two regions as Serbian autonomy was only idea, which he inherited from those three that I named above. – As one might notice – Tudjman’s offerings were really not a true base for any negotiation.– By the way as far as I know “Z-4 plan” was signed by Krajina representatives days before “Oluja”. On the soccer game in Zagreb there were no Arkan’s “Tigers” as you mention. Tigers were Croatian armed group that occupied a north part of the stadium and tried to attack Rote Stern supporters on the South side of the stadium. I am not saying that Rote Stern supporters were angels. I am saying that both supporters were used as means toto provoke police reaction and use it as excuse to expel Serbs from Internal ministry of affairs. Is it Serbian or Yugoslavian Sign “three finger”.Yugoslavia was composed of many nations and everybody had a right to express its national feelings inside “communist borders”. Yugoslavia was not unified state, which means it was composed from many different groups and signs, which represented these groups. There was no one torch in the Yugoslavia it was six, each representing characters of one nation. Yugoslavia meant “three fingers as well as “two fingers” as long as we contributed to the common state. – That’s why we had Republics with each having all relevant insignia. Having a sport player attacking a policeman requires no comment. – In this case it showed only how much hatred was spread over there. When Divac uses “three fingers” It does not express the same thing – it expresses his willingness to show which national group he belongs to. – Same thing as flag that he plays under. Have no objections to see Divac playing “Uzicko kolo”I have no objections to see any Croat to play “Drmes” – I would join. Pero Peric Canada Monday November 04, 2002 at 12:35 pm Passed on for Tribunal Live watchers/listeners Press Advisory . Avis pour information(Exclusively for the use of the media. Not an official document) The Hague, 4 November 2002 P.I.S./PA066 MILOSEVIC TRIAL ADJOURNED TUESDAY 5 AND WEDNESDAY 6 NOVEMBER 2002 On Tuesday 5 November and Wednesday 6 November 2002, there will be no trialproceedings in the case The Prosecutor v. Slobodan Milosevic due to medicalreasons. Please note that the Trial Chamber was not scheduled to sit on Thursday 7and Friday 8 November 2002. Frank Tiggelaar Amsterdam Holland Monday November 04, 2002 at 12:58 pm Let us rehearse the story of the peace-keeping forces for the benefit of dummies like me. Let no-one tell us that we are not capable of a balanced view, no matter how boring it may be. The Dutchbat, the lightly-armed Dutch battalion, which could not protect Srebrenica from the attack by Mladic, was part of the same UNPROFOR that we came across in Croatia. UNPROFOR's mandate was initially confined to Croatia, but encouraged by the positive results and discouraged by the deteriorating situation in Bosnia, the Secretary-General sent military observers to Mostar (in Bosnia, or actually Herzegovina) on 30 April 1992. In the defense of the Secretary-General, let it be remembered that this was before the Croatian Army launched an offensive in UNPROFOR's Sector South and the adjacent "pink zones" on January 22, 1993. In retrospect, the Secretary-General's optimism is enviable, but at least it was contagious: it persuaded Gligorov. Gligorov was the President of Macedonia. Macedonia, in turn, had declared independence in September 1991. On 11 November 1992, Gligorov requested the deployment of United Nations observers in Macedonia, concerned as he was about the possible impact of fighting elsewhere in the former Yugoslavia. UNPROFOR was the name of the troops. Maybe the question is: Why didn't any fighting take place in Macedonia, even if UNPROFOR was deployed there? This time, however, the mission was different. In fact, UNPROFOR's mission was unique in the whole history of the UN's peace-keeping missions in that the troops were deployed even before any hostilities took place. The Macedonian part of UNPROFOR is better known by its later name UNPREDEP. Indeed, on 31 March 1995, the Security Council decided by resolution 983 (1995) that "the UNPROFOR within the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia shall be known as the United Nations Preventive Deployment Force (UNPREDEP)". Gligorov made his request in November 1992. In December 1992, George Bush Sr. threatened to intervene if Milosevic started a ruckus in Kosovo. No doubt the Croats felt the wind changing against the Serbs and started the offensive against UNPROFOR in Croatia the following January. Even if Macedonia's worries about the Serb attack were premature, especially in light of the fact that the Albanians were later the real headache, Gligorov made a wise PR move. It prevented Macedonia from descending to the limbo with the rump-Yugoslavia. The danger of the descent to limbo was real. Macedonia's application for UN membership was on hold, because Greece opposed the name of the new state, Macedonia. (Eventually, on 8 April 1993, the General Assembly admitted to UN membership the State being provisionally referred to as the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia pending settlement of the difference.) Even if the Croatian army had attacked UNPROFOR in Croatia in January 1993, the optimism continued unabated. The Dutchbat was authorized to keep an eye on Srebrenica by Security Council resolution 836 (1993) on 4 June 1993. Much has been made of its ultimate failure of Dutchbat because they told not to shoot at the Serb troops and especially because of the light equipment used by the troops. However, the whole objective of the Dutchbat is somewhat blurred. Resolution 836 is the one which said the Security Council was "gravely concerned at the persistent refusal of the Bosnian Serb party to accept the Vance-Owen Plan and calling upon that party to accept the Peace Plan for the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina in full." The resolution stated in § 6 that UNPROFOR's mission in the safe areas was "the prompt implementation of the provisions of the Vance-Owen Plan in areas where those have been agreed by the parties directly concerned". The Vance-Owen Plan would have meant that Bosnia would have been partitioned in 10 cantons. The Croats, the Muslims and the Serbs would have all got three cantons, and Sarajevo, the tenth canton, would have been ethnically mixed. The Croats were particularly happy about the plan, because they got three cantons, even if they made up only 17% of the population. Karadzic signed the Plan on 2 May, 1993, only to see it rejected by the Bosnian Serbs a couple of weeks later. A new plan was drawn in Geneva: the so-called Owen-Stoltenberg Plan. This would have meant that the Serbs would have got 52% of the territory, the Muslims 30% and the Croats 18%. The Muslims were not too happy about this, because they made up 44% of the population, while the Serbs only made up 31%. So it is not surprising that the Croats and the Muslims rejected the Plan on 20 August 1993. This was a couple of months after the adoption of resolution 836 (1993), whereby the Dutchbat was supposed to implement the Vance-Owen Plan. Three days later the Croatian Herceg-Bosna declares independence. On 1 March, 1994, a week after the Croat-Muslim ceasefire, the Croats and the Muslims agree on a federation, which consists of 4 Muslim cantons, 2 Croat cantons and 2 ethnically mixed cantons plus Sarajevo. On 5 July 1994, the Contact Group (which includes Russia and the US among others) put forward a proposal, which would have given the Serbs 49% of the Bosnian territory and the Croat-Bosnian federation 51%. The Serbs rejected the plan in a referendum on 28 August 1994. The rejection is a riddle. If 49% wasn't enough, there seems to be every reason to speak of a drive for a Greater Serbia. I don't know why the Bosnian Serbs rejected it. However, the Federal government of Serbia had already cut its links to the Bosnian Serbs on 4 August 1994, as it was clear that the Bosnian Serbs would reject the plan. On 23 September, 1994 the Security Council rewarded the Federal government by lifting the sanctions and instead imposed extra sanctions against the Bosnian Serbs until they would accept the partition plan. This much seems to be clear: Karadzic and Milosevic were ready to sign any paper. The latter was even willing to cut his links to the Bosnian Serbs. It is the Bosnian Serb population that rejected the plans. Why they did it is not clear to me, but I think I understand that this intransigence ultimately gave rise to the Greater Serbia rhetoric. Everything that has been said above happened before the fall of Srebrenica in July 1995. The story goes like this. On 6 to 8 July, 1994 the Serb troops under Mladic approached the safe area of Srebrenica. Some Dutchbatters were taken as hostages and taken to the Serbian territory. The Muslims had asked the Dutchbat to give back the arms that the Dutchbat had been confiscated, but to no avail. A lot has been said of the Dutch pusillanimity, but in fact the Dutch Commander Karremans did ask on 6 July for air support. His requests remained unanswered. Why? The common explanation is that the higher echelons in the UN and NATO were not up to date. This is where conspiracy theorists like us surmise that the whole disaster was deliberately staged to deflect the attention from the US-aided operations in Croatia. In that case, we will never know. But in Karreman's defense it must be said that he repeated his requests often enough. Finally, on 10 July Karremans did receive a positive reply, but the promise was never delivered. The next day, on 11 July, Karremans repeated his request, but then Nato replied that the aircraft had been too long up in the air and had to return for more fuel. In the afternoon the same day some action was finally seen: two bombs - no more, no less - were fired at the Serb positions. Mladic was of course not too happy about this and threatened to kill the Dutch hostages, which led the Dutch to request an immediate stop to the bombing. In the meantime, tens of thousands of Muslim had fled to the Dutch base camp in Potocari. Closing scene: Karremans having a toast with Mladic. (Source: NOS nieuws.) It is the failure of the peace-keeping forces in Srebrenica, intentional or not, that urged Nato to demand heavily armed troops in Kosovo. In fact, OSCE had a verification mission in Kosovo on the basis of the agreement made with Yugoslavia on October 16, 1998. They were not armed. To drive home the point of heavily armed troops, the Racak massacre took place on 15 January 1999. William Walker was immediately declared persona non grata. The US administration was not too happy about this. See http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/ops/docs99/99011913.htm . But the point was made: the international presence in Kosovo had to be really tough, especially in light of a similar failure in Srebrenica. Jari Nousiainen Finland Monday November 04, 2002 at 1:11 pm Passed on for Tribunal Live watchers/listenersPress Advisory . Avis pour information (Exclusively for the use of the media. Not an official document)The Hague, 4 November 2002P.I.S./PA066MILOSEVIC TRIAL ADJOURNED TUESDAY 5 AND WEDNESDAY 6 NOVEMBER 2002On Tuesday 5 November and Wednesday 6 November 2002, there will be no trial proceedings in the case The Prosecutor v. Slobodan Milosevic due to medical reasons.Please note that the Trial Chamber was not scheduled to sit on Thursday 7 and Friday 8 November 2002.Frank TiggelaarAmsterdamHolland Wonderful piece of information telling us there will be no trial until Monday November 11, assuming the ICTY does not celebrate Armistice (1918) Day, which is very likely. So, now that we know the schedule of the trial can we also know the medical condition, the gravety of the accused Mr. Slobodan Milosevic? Gogol Charlemagne Conn. USA Monday November 04, 2002 at 3:55 pm For weeks there were hardly any articles about Mr. Milosevic's trial. Some very important witnesses were testifying, caught lying, but nothing interesting to report. And suddenly Mr. Milosevic gets sick and floodgates are opened. Articles are boring as boring as they can be. They would love to see him death before the end of the trial. It is so sad where the world justice system and new Word Order democracy and media are going. Pera Bora Canada Monday November 04, 2002 at 5:56 pm It is claimed by the ICTY Milosevice's health is protected by privacy. Would they disclose his death, if such event took place or is it also a "private affair"? Gogol Charlemagne USA Monday November 04, 2002 at 6:46 pm A number of official documents (most of them in English) relating to Mr. Noussianen's account of what happened in Srebrenica can be found in Domovina Net's archives, bottom page. Frank Tiggelaar Amsterdam Holland Monday November 04, 2002 at 8:20 pm American troops in Macedonia sent by President Clinton well before the US recognised Macedonia as an independent state. Read HERE More confusion and the propaganda repetitious theme: one evil, one cause, one good deed. Gogol Charlemagne Conn. USA Monday November 04, 2002 at 8:37 pm Washington did not simply sit on the sidelines, however, making self-serving propaganda through its media. It simultaneously laid the groundwork for eventual military intervention by U.S. troops. This began in 1992, when the Clinton administration sent 300 troops in Macedonia, as part of the UN "peacekeeping" mission there. They were later increased to 500. Today U.S. troops are part of the 12,000-strong NATO force there. Throughout these years, Washington humiliated its competitors in France, Germany, and Britain that had sent thousands of troops to Bosnia. The French and British troops came to be increasingly seen by many in Yugoslavia and in bourgeois public opinion in the United States as responsible for the ongoing killing to a degree, or at least as unable to bring peace and to stop the slaughter. Why wasn't there a Madrid agreement, a Lisbon, a Paris, a Stockholm, Belgrade, or Hague agreement? Because Washington sabotaged them all. Who remembers any of these potential accords? No one. Who remembers the politicians like Carl Bildt, the former Swedish prime minister, assigned to bring them to fruition? No one. Washington humbled the authors of those plans and the powers behind them - Bonn, Stockholm, and Paris. Everytime an agreement seemed close to be struck, there was another slaughter to derail it. Read more: HERE Gogol Charlemagne USA Monday November 04, 2002 at 9:37 pm From Jari’s post: “DS, let us add to the list another factor: football. So now we have on our list the following items: wedding-rings, money, religion and football.” In my opinion, the fact that the Moslem world is behind Izetbegovic’s Moslems and Kosovars, that Vatican is behind Croats, and that Greeks are behind Serbs has everything to do with religion and nothing to do with the sports orientation. D. S. USA Tuesday November 05, 2002 at 6:21 am DS, football is religion. The fighting started from violence between different armed gangs. That is what an ex-Yugoslav once told us in an interview on TV. What made the violence get out of control was the premature recognition of the breakaway republics. Consequently, the gangs had not only weapons but also a cause. And despite all the Mickey Mouse arms embargoes, they got support from abroad. None of this should have been a surprise. Probably none of it was. I believe in the theory that the US let the UN and its Nato partners march to the hellhole so the UN and the Europeans could make fools of themselves. Part of this is very sane foreign policy. Colin Powell used it in the latest Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Let others try to sort out the mess and let Colin Powell enter only after he can be sure of success. The US "credibility" is at stake. Only, this time it didn't work. In the Balkans it did reasonably well. One point really needs a particular explanation, though. How can UNPROFOR arrive in Croatia to protect the Serbs, when the US policy clearly had some loftier goals, like making short work of the Serbs? I think Gligorov had more savvy than the rest of the ex-Yugoslav leaders. He knew how to pull the strings both in the US and the UN to get his little country on the worldmap and up from the limbo where the rump Yugoslavia was sucking it. The US was only too willing to swallow the "bait", because in Macedonia the US and the UN could finally find a common tune. It is a pity that two months after Gligorov made his request for peace-keeping forces, Croatia had to attack UNPROFOR. Contrast the American policy to the Dutch. It is no wonder the Americans had an easy job making fools of the European peace efforts. The Dutch think that everything that hurts is the truth, and that is why they keep flagillating themselves over Srebrenica. In fact, the peace-keeping forces are always lightly armed, as the Dutchbat was in Srebrenica. It has been the rule that the peace-keepers should have just enough arms to defend themselves. Nothing extraordinary there. Mr Tiggelaar's Domovina link tries to show that the Dutch government only has itself to blame for the disaster, because the Dutch assumed the whole chain of commands in the events that led to the massacre. Of course, I haven't read the book, but this theory doesn't explain the capricious Nato air support. And in fact, the theory now put forward has as its premise the well-known figure of 8,000 Muslim men, which we can be pretty certain isn't accurate. In fact, the NOS Nieuws that I referred to didn't mention any massacre. It made all the more ado about the Muslim refugees. And how about the American monopoly in the chain of command? Let us take another look at the Racak massacre. Remember, William Walker was the chief of the OSCE Kosovo Verification Mission. Thus he was independent of the US government. As if. When Yugoslavia tried to expel him, James Rubin took the liberty to express "outrage" in the name of the US government. OSCE finally managed to get Walker installed, but of course, the matter wasn't in their hands. Even Ahtisaari admits that Walker's mission laboured under Walker's preconceptions of what was actually happening in Kosovo. Miraculously, his preconception chimed in with that of the US government. But none of this exonerates the Serbs in Srebrenica of course. Even if there were no massacre, the Serbs were certainly wrong in taking the Dutchbat soldiers hostage. It is absolutely inconceivable that Mladic shouldn't have know about this. However, what has this to do with Milosevic? The prosecution's point in parading the former Federal president Zoran Lilic is to show that the real power belonged to Milosevic, while Lilic was the Federal President. The prosecution is shooting itself in the foot. Lilic was president from 25 Jun 1993 to 25 Jun 1997. All the peace initiatives in Bosnia from the Federal government's side took place in this period, when Milosevic allegedly had the effective control of Yugoslavia. During this period, the Federal Government was trying to pressure Bosnian Serbs to sign the 49%-51% plan, which was put forward by the Contact Group. Finally, the Federal government cut all ties with the Bosnian Serbs. The UN rewarded it by lifting the sanctions. And to belabour the point, by the prosecution's admission, the real power belonged to Milosevic. Conversely, the real power in Yugoslavia belonged to Stipe Mesic in 1991-1992, which is the time period of the Croatia indictment. The prosecution is at a loss. Even if I am willing to concede that the Bosnian Serbs were prepared to entertain some dreams of a Greater Serbia, this in no way excuses the treatment of Serbs in Croatia. So now we know what Tudjman offer to the Serbs was: equal rights in Knin and Glina. Just enough to make Tudjman look like a peace-maker. To his dismay, the Serbs reportedly accepted the offer! In fact, the sad fate of the Croatian Serbs must have led to the intransigence among the Bosnian Serbs. The 500,000 refugees from Croatia had to be placed somewhere. That was the real reason Kososo came to the spotlight, because the idea was that the Serb refugees should be placed there. Enter the US policy once again. The US was obviously trying to curtail the Serbs from two opposite direction, from Croatia and Kosovo. To flesh out the Kosovo onslaught, the US had to make a fuss in Macedonia, a state which it didn't even recognize. Big deal. The US said that it didn't recognize even Yugoslavia, where it still continued to have a diplomatic representation. No distinction between so-called de facto and de jure recognition here. Yugoslavia just was not recognized. Period. To make the lie even bigger, the formula "diplomatic recognition" was used. Maybe it was an American idea to sit on two stools, Croatia and Kosovo. At least Croatia didn't seem to mind this two-pronged strategy. Kosovo declared independence shortly after Croatia and Slovenia did. Croatia knew how to exploit it and started lobbying for the rights of the Kosovars. The US was busy outmanouevring Serbia. It is incomprehensible why Milosevic thought he could teach the international community something. He should have applied for separate UN membership for Yugoslavia with the breakaway republics. As long as he didn't, it made no difference whether Yugoslavia recognized Croatia, Slovenia and Bosnia. The message was that these are just sham recognition and Yugoslavia was the only legal successor of SFRY. It was easy for the US to pit the republics against each other. OK, Slobo may have made a mistake, but so did the UN. If Yugoslavia didn't continue the UN membership of SFRY, the Security Council hardly had any justification for setting up the ICTY. Does the Security Council really have such extensive powers as regards non-members? And now that Yugoslavia has been accepted as a new member, it should get an equitable representation in the ICTY, because its vital state interests are affected as long as former heads of state are shipped to The Hague as a matter of course. As to the three-finger greeting. Tito became the godfather of the ninth son of any Yugoslav family, in honour of the Jugovic family, which lost all its sons in the battle of Kosovo according to the Serb legend. So obviously the Serb customs were not banned even in Tito's time. As to Milosevic's health, it is my understanding that the Dutch government will be taken to court shortly for the complete neglect (or worse) of his medical care. Jari Nousiainen Finland Tuesday November 05, 2002 at 6:55 am There is something to be made clear: the Yanks wanted the UN and everybody else out of the ground to be free to bomb at will. The Europeans and the UN precisely by their presence in the ground hindered American policy since bombing exposed the UN to reprisals by Serbs or others since the UN troops included Nato members troops. In fact this was the European-UN card against US policy of "shoot first ask questions later". The repeatly staged Bosnian Muslims attacks on civilian markets, and eventually the fall of the "save heavens" and the construction of Srebrenica were the last stage before the major change in policy shifting from European to American in conducting the intervention in Yugoslavia. Kosovo, Racak and William Walker, a character already famous by his bloody involvements in Central America and now the president of a major "energy" company involved in Central Asia (!) was the redux of BiH. Gogol Charlemagne USA Tuesday November 05, 2002 at 7:13 am "A year before the break up of the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, on November 5, 1990, the US Congress passed the 1991 Foreign Operations Appropiations Law 101-513" A section of this Law suddenly and without previous warning cut off aid, credits, and loans from the US to Yugoslavia within months. ( . . .) The law also demanded separate elections in each of the six republics ( . . .), requiring the State Department approval of election procedures and results before aid to the separate republics would be resumed. The legislation further required US personnel in all internationa financial institutions such as the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund to enforce this cut-off policy for all credits and loans. There was one final provision. Only forces that the US State Department defined as "democratic" would receive funding ( . . .)At the time there was no civil war (. . .) From NATO in the Balkans IAC, New York Gogol Charlemagne Conn. USA Tuesday November 05, 2002 at 11:21 am Well, the UN may not have been quite useless in the US plans. I thought I was joking about the absence of violence in Macedonia despite the deployment of UNPREDEP there. As we all know, Macedonia got its share of internal trouble later on, and I don't think I am exaggerating when I say that this is mainly thanks to the continued presence of UNPREDEP in the country. Or how do you like this quote from SC resolution 1082 from 27 November 1996: "The original threat for which the preventive United Nations mission was deployed -- that conflicts elsewhere in the former Yugoslavia might spill over -- now seems remote. The primary threat today was coming from internal political tension. The UNPREDEP has accordingly devoted considerable attention to strengthening dialogue between the political forces and has assisted in monitoring human rights and inter-ethnic relations." Well, we know how that "dialogue" panned out. On the other hand, no-one should blame the Russian representative for lack of foresight. His statement is attached at the end. It says, among others: "From the Russian Federation's assessment of the situation, the operation should be drawn down, otherwise, there was a risk of the previous achievements of UNPREDEP being wiped out." A very good list of all the SC resolutions and thus an overview of the trouble 90's in the Balkans can be viewed at http://www.nato.int/ifor/un/un-resol.htm . Jari Nousiainen Finland Tuesday November 05, 2002 at 11:54 am By the way, the fighting that did materialize later on in Macedonia was attributed to the absence of UNPREDEP. You know, UNPREDEP had to be taken out of the country, because China vetoed the extension of the UNPREDEP mandate in protest against the Macedonian recognition of Taiwan. And before anyone accuses me of anti-Serb or anti-Croat bias, let me say that even if taking Dutchbatters hostage and the threats to kill them were bad, so were the renewed Croatian offensives against UNPROFOR-protected areas in Croatia. January 1993 was not the last time. The offensives later reoccurred in 1995. Maybe at other times as well. Just check the above list of the relevant SC resolutions. It's great. J N Finland Tuesday November 05, 2002 at 8:23 pm Mr. Milosevic was abducted from Yugoslavia. The Serbian Government decree issued for his deportation was illegal under Yugoslavian and Serbian law. The Yugoslav Supreme Court had consented fo hear a complaint against the decree. Because the Yugoslav Constitution article on Yugoslav citizens extraditions barrs such practice a Law of Co-operation with the ICTY has been passed earlier this year, Mr. Milosevic did not benefit from this law, nor of his Head of State immunity. Further, during his abduction on his way to The Netherlands in a NATO transport plane he was debriefed in Tusla at the NATO base there. Mr. Milosevic has tried repeatly to compell judge May (NATO) to look into the matter of illegal arrest. The court has refused his petition. Now, it is quite clear the detention conditions of Mr. Milosevic are quite inadequated for and formost his health which keeps deteriorating and not less importan to mount his defence. Mr. Milosevic has asked the court to allow him some decree of freedom outside of the detention at the ex-Gestapo jail where he is kept now. There are several possible less draconian and unhealthy options for the Tribunal to secur his safety as house arrest, or bail since the Yugoslav government has offered garantees for other Yugoslavs presently under indictment or awaiting trial . . . One thing is clear: the present conditions have to be improved! Gogol Charlemagne Conn. USA Tuesday November 05, 2002 at 8:38 pm MODERATOR, THANKS FOR FINALLY BREAKING UP THE PAGE; I HAVE NOT BEEN ABLE TO DOWNLOAD IT FOR 8 DAYS. YES, IT WAS ME WHO E-MAILED JURIST YESTERDAY TO COMPLAIN, SORRY. PLEASE, KEEP THE SEGMENTS SMALLER. The tale of the last witness who has completed his testimony, Lazarevic, may seem a bit stale now, but I think it deserves to be told. But, before that, something about the "pretty humane" conditions that Milosevic is subjected to. One of his counselling lawyers, Misha Ognjanovic, went to visit him this weekend, and here's what he said: "The greatest exhaustion to Slobodan Milosevic is brought by afternoon sessions, and they are practically no time gain to the court. Because, if there is an afternoon session, then there is the obligatory an hour-and-a-half lunch break. The afternoon sessions begin at 14:30 and end at 16:15. During the lunch break, Milosevic sits alone in a small room in the courthouse, without the possibility to have lunch as well. By the time he arrives at the detention unit, around 17:00, it is already too late for a fresh-air walk or a meeting with his legal counsels, due to the detention unit house rules." (POLITIKA, 5 Nov.) Breaking its long silence, the BBC NEWS of 30 Oct. came up with the coverage of the trial - the testimony given by Slobodan Lazarevic ("Milosevic Challenges Key Witness"). According to the article, the witness said "that Mr Milosevic controlled and financed the Bosnian Serb and Croatian Serb armies during the conflict in the early 1990s." But the article is in trouble to define Lazarevic: "a former Yugoslav spy", "said he worked as an under-cover agent", "a solid, serious-looking man who served with Serbia's military intelligence"... That is just the problem: Lazarevic was none of the above, so he couldn't possibly have any info on controlling and financing anything by anybody. Indeed, all the evidence he ever gave was "some officers told me", "it was common knowledge", "everybody knew that", "I heard it over the speakerphone when some officers spoke to Belgrade", "Colonel Zimonja told me". Well, here's the key name: Colonel Zimonja was the supposed "connection" of the witness inside the YU Army Counter-Intelligence Service, who "recruited" him 30 years ago (the witness knows nobody else in the Service!) and to whom he personally submitted reports once a week. The only problem was that Lazarevic miscalculated the age of his "connection": Zimonja was way too young back in 1968 to "recruit" anybody. Later on, he was studying in the USSR for 9 years and even later, he was the military attache in the YU embassies throughout Europe (therefore in no position to meet our wannabe-spy on a regular basis in his neck of the wood where he lived (Velika Kladusa and Vojnic). Even one of our zealous journalists reporting live from The Hague in session breaks for TV B92 couldn't just plant the usual "another strong witness" sop. Instead, she whined how the "Prosecution did a really poor job with this one, not previously checking the obviously easily checkable facts" and letting the "spy" embarrass them. So, Lazarevic never even claimed he was a military man, he just "liked to collect uniforms and wear them" around with various insignia, particularly the British Army officer's uniform, "because I thought this one suited me the best." He finished University in Sarajevo (English language) and became an interpreter long before the war, first in AGROKOMERC, until Fikret Abdic fired him for stealing from his office, then at the SAO Krajina HQ (to interpret when the UN, OSCE or Red Cross officials came; he referred to this as being "a liaison officer" - thus the deliberate misunderstanding about his non-existent military career). But it would not look good if a simple interpreter would reveal "some of the most incriminating testimony" (BBC NEWS), it had to be the "man who served with Serbia's military intelligence." Otherwise, Lazarevic could not be present at all those important inner-circle top meetings (without the UN, OSCE, Red Cross present and no interpreter needed), where speakerphone was used when communicating with Belgrade. Colonel Zimonja was a man whom Lazarevic "saw for the first time in his office in 1995", after the Operation Storm, when the flood of Serb refugees from CRO came to Belgrade, bringing our "spy" along. The whole story was obviously spinned then and there, backwards all the way to 1968. Clearly, another case of megalomania, another Ratomir Tanic case (Remember him? Conferring regularly with Milosevic in his cabinet about the plans for the ethnic cleansing, and not even knowing on which floor and in which wing of the palace the cabinet of Milosevic actually was?!) BBC NEWS, as always relying on their readers not to read transcripts or to watch the video of the "trial", wrote about Lazarevic: "Mr Milosevic suggested he was a nobody with no inside information and had been bribed to give fabricated evidence", but that Lazarevic "a solid, serious-looking man... stood up to the attacks". Let's see how he did that. (TO BE CONTINUED) Vera Martinovic Belgrade Yugoslavia Wednesday November 06, 2002 at 12:38 am The Kosovo phase of the trial was notable in its de-emphasis on physical and forensic evidence. The presentation of Dr. Baccard was not very convincing in proving prosecution claims. In fact, only one incident listed in the original indictment was a clear-cut case of execution; the shooting of six people in a Djakovica building, the kind of thing any gangster could have done. The evidence from Bela Crkva, for instance, was very consistent with KLA deaths as was the site near Vucitrn where a civilian column was allegedly attacked by Yugoslav forces; the witness testimonies were not very convincing in that case either. R. B. Canada Wednesday November 06, 2002 at 3:33 am Yes, it is indeed too good to be true: First the prosecution tries to persuade the Trial Chamber to hold closed sessions. Then Judge Kwon starts criticizing Nice, and suddenly Milosevic gets a near heart attack, and the trial is suspended for a week. It looks as if the prosecution is doing anything not to lose. Are they really such sore losers? Somebody tell them to relax: it's only a job. Don't take it so seriously. We have been trying to balance the 500 Nato-caused deaths "that could have been avoided" (in the words of HRW) against the casualties that might have resulted from Serb-committed war crimes. I speculated that HRW brought the Nato-induced casualties deliberately down to 500, because it knew that the Serb war crimes couldn't have accounted for more than 500 deaths in Kosovo. And indeed, the Kosovo indictment of Milosevic only speaks of 340 murders, which are listed in the schedules at the back. I noticed this 340 figure while I was reading Ahtisaari's memoirs again. The prosecution is wily. It lists the alleged murder victims by name, so the list gets longer. The numbers behind the names are only the ages of the victims - they don't denote any kind of death toll. The schedules are broken down by locality: Racak (A), Bela Crkva (B), Mali Krusa/Velika Krusa (C), Djakovica (D), Padalishte (E), Izbica (F), Dakovica again (G), Vucitrn (H), Meja (I), Dubrava prison (J), Suva Reka (K), Kacanik (L). The overwhelming majority of the victims are male, with the exception of the second incident in Dakovica and Suva Reka. That points to a combat situation, which of course does not exclude the possibility of war crimes (on the contrary). So clearly, Milosevic has the numeric advantage over Nato's "collateral damage". The prosecution has already listed the names of the victims Milosevic has to address in his defence. Again, he has the advantage, because 200-400 war crimes convictions have already been handed down in Serbia. The task is now to link the names of the victims and the guilty verdicts. Nato had to do something about its image, so the HRW rushed to help. The 500 figure is still too high. So Nato had to do everything to make it seem like collateral damage. You see, the 500 figure could still be qualified as genocide by the prosecution's new "Popovic" definition. So they had to bomb the Albanians as well to make the collateral damage sound more plausible. On the other hand, that reduces the number of the war crimes committed by the Serbs in Kosovo. Perhaps they were willing to take that risk, because they thought nobody would be likely to noticed it. Ahtisaari's memoirs also shed some light on the reasons Milosevic had to be indicted. One of the reasons was very simple: Nato had no Security Council authorization for its bombing. The indictment of Milosevic would confer the authority on Nato (ICTY is after all under the Security Council). I guess the indictment would also take the attention away from the Rambouillet Accords, where the KLA, which had been accused of terrorist activities in SC resolution 1160 (1998), became the only partner of the US in the talks in Rambouillet. Ahtisaari brings up another small but significant detail. The Serb army and Nato concluded a Military Technical Agreement before the Security Council adopted resolution 1244 (1999), which is the legal basis for KFOR and UNMIK. Milosevic protested to Ahtisaari that the Serbs had no authority to make such "military technical" agreements with Nato without the Security Council authorization. He must have had in mind the fact that the bombing campaign lacked a Security Council authorization. Ahtisaari may have missed the point. Anyway, he reassured Milosevic that the Security Council resolution will come as soon as the Serb forces sign the Military Technical Agreement with Nato and start withdrawing from Kosovo. The list of the relevant Security Council resolutions that I found yesterday is a gold mine. We may refer to some politician's memoirs and the prosecution may refer to some intercepted messages, but as long as ICTY is nominally under the Security Council, it cannot refute the relevant Security Council resolutions! And there is a wealth of good stuff (from Milosevic's point of view) in the resolutions. The link is http://www.nato.int/ifor/un/un-resol.htm . From the list we learn this, among other things. This serves as a background, although it may not be directly relevant for Milosevic's defence. UNPROFOR in Bosnia was different from normal peace-keeping missions in many respects. Perhaps the most notable difference was the establishment of No-Fly Zones on 9 October 1992. Later, on 4 June 1993, the defence of the safe areas was beefed up by allowing for the use of air power. The authorization of air power took place in SC resolution 836 (1993). This is a significant resolution, because it also authorized the deployment of the Dutchbat in Srebrenica. And this also the same resolution that urged the Bosnian Serbs to accept the Vance-Owen Plan. Apropos of Dutchbat. The Dutchbat was only authorized to use force in self-defence (§ 9). That explains their light equipment. Any more extensive manoeuvres were the domain of the air power (§ 10). So there doesn't seem to be enough justification for the Dutch to keep flagellating themselves. They had no duty or even the right to hand the Muslims back the arms they had confiscated, while Mladic was advancing. The NOS Nieuws is also quite clear that Naser Oric, who lauched attacks on the Serbs from Srebrenica, was a real problem. On the other hand, taking Dutchbat soldiers hostage was a dramatic measure, which may have been justified by the need to eliminate Naser Oric, which Dutchbat couldn't do. This was undeniably rather a quaint decision on Mladic's part, but perhaps not totally illegal as long as the Dutchbat soldiers were treated as prisoners of war (which doesn't excuse the threats to kill them). All in all, it is safe truism that the genesis of Bosnia is rather anomalous. Why break up a multiethnic state like Yugoslavia only to establish a smaller multiethnic state like Bosnia in the middle of it? Perhaps part of the reason is that the Western powers could govern the whole of former Yugoslavia from Bosnia through their "High Representative" (currently Ashdown). You see, the Dayton Accord was signed by Croatia and Yugoslavia as well, and this gave the "witnesses", including the US, the power to control what these co-signatories did later. We didn't have to wait for an example of this too long. A year after the signature of Dayton, Shattuck started criticizing Milosevic for not handing the war crimes suspects to The Hague. He also threaten to re-impose sanctions on Serbia, even if the Dayton Agreement could not serve as a legal basis for this. It may be Shattuck's personal quirk that the Dayton Agreement was a trap for Milosevic. Maybe he is alone in this view, but it points to the usefulness of Bosnia as a cauldron in the heart of former Yugoslavia. Jari Nousiainen Finland Wednesday November 06, 2002 at 4:08 am One has to be careful about what one says of Milosevic's health. It is not that all kinds of doctors are not buzzing around him, but until now he has not been examined by cardiologist. All we know is that his heart is probably damaged. The last thing that crosses the judges' mind is to release him. The prosecution didn't even bother to transfer Janko Bobetko to The Hague, because he was too old. But Milosevic is different, and none of the natural precautions have been taken by the tribunal, as Gogol suggested. I read that the "institution" of amici curiae was Wladimiroff's idea. Wladimiroff argued that the accused has the "right" to a counsel whom he doesn't want and who acts like a counsel, only this time without a client. His argument was that somebody has to ensure the "objective perspective" - which probably runs counter to the interests of the accused in view of the fact that he doesn't want any "objective perspective". This innovation was probably only meant to divert the attention from the violation of the defendant's right to "adequate facilities for the preparation of his defense" (Art. 21-4-b of the Statute). Apart from the health considerations, the "adequate facilities" are almost proverbial in Milosevic's case. The tribunal wanted to make Milosevic's life as hard as possible by using his refusal to appoint a counsel as an excuse. Chris Black was banned, because he transmitted some of the comments made by Milosevic to the Dutch press. Milosevic has consistently protested against his abduction and the illegality of the tribunal. The Trial Chamber replied that Milosevic must set his objections on paper, which he did. At the same time, the amici curiae set the same objections on paper too, but they called this paper a "preliminary motion", to be reviewed by the Trial Chamber according to the procedural rules of the tribunal. When the Trial Chamber did review this preliminary motion, the judges lumped the motion together with Milosevic's own objections, which were now also reviewed as a preliminary motion. That meant that Milosevic's objections were reviewed according to the procedural rules too. His whole point was to object to the legality of any of the rules of the tribunal. So he got outmanoeuvred at the outset. (Source: the article by Nico Steijnen in the Dutch Advocatenblad.) J N Finland Wednesday November 06, 2002 at 10:57 am Tribunal rules allow the judges to ban any defence lawyer they don't like. The Tribunal serves as a self-contained system where certain rules apply, all favouring those who finance it, the NATO powers; if these rules fail to serve their purposes, they can always be changed so that they do. It is a place where one is told to lose hope, all who enter. It is a place where defendents (or shall I use their word, "indictees") have no recourse to any law outside the system. It is a trap with no escape. R. B. Canada Wednesday November 06, 2002 at 12:16 pm (CONTINUATION)Although the witness claimed in both his live testimony and in his written statement that he exclusively "personally reported to Zimonja" for 30 years, when asked how to explain the fact that Zimonja was first in the USSR school and then in European embassies for decades, therefore unavailable to meet in Bosnia and CRO "once a week", the witness changed his tune: "I was sending my reports in writing, and our embassies forwarded them to Zimonja." This was the first serious crack in the facade of this witness, who started to get angry, to frequently drink water, to give sarcastic quibbles, rather than answer unpleasant questions. And it got worse. Lazarevic eloquently told how he "drove in his car with his wife" to check out one of those famous road blocks by local Krajina Serbs back in 1990 ("tree-trunk revolution"), "out of pure curiosity", only to discover "these were not local Serbs but the guys from Belgrade, receiving each DEM 100 a day." The same story in his written statement was: "Colonel Zimonja told me that some of those people at the road blocks came from Serbia..." Explanation? A mistake in the written statement. I would say, "testimony strengthening". To create a believable picture of a spy working under-cover in a small Bosnian place, Lazarevic weaved a real spy story: his "first serious assignment was to kill 2 brothers Brajdic", local Croat emigrees from Sweden, who came in preparation of the imminent wars. He formed a troika, was given weapons, but the whole action had been "aborted when 2 drunken JNA officers approached him in a cafe, started to talk aloud about the Greater Serbia project, so I was exposed". Milosevic asked him whether he was well known in the community; when the witness proudly confirmed it, Milosevic just quoted from his statement, where the same event was described differently: there was ONE captain who came to him, hugged and kissed him and called him "my Serb brother". Lazarevic weaseled out of this by claiming that "this must have been a bad translation". Both versions sadly disregard logic: why would a well-known local Serb be exposed as a Serb if somebody address him publicly as a Serb? The same pathetic wrestling with the inconsistencies continued re the whole arsenal issued for the "action" (statement) versus "a Scorpio with the silencer" (testimony). I think at that point the witness would have gladly eaten up his written statement page by page. Re claims how "Belgrade supplied weapons to Krajina", Milosevic asked the witness whether he's aware that the ex-YU arms production was mainly located in the central part of the country, namely Bosnia and Krajina, and that apart from food there was really no need for anything else as a help from Belgrade, and didn't he see on CRO TV how long it took to that Croatian General to drive in a Jeep through the endless arms&ammo depot in Knin after it was taken over in the Operation Storm? The witness arrogantly answered: "I have no clue." Milosevic said: "Well, that's exactly what I'm saying." (TO BE CONTINUED) Vera Martinovic Belgrade Yugoslavia Wednesday November 06, 2002 at 12:27 pm Vera, I would like to post your comments in the NYT forum, with full credits or as you may wish. Can I? Gogol Charlemagne Conn. USA Wednesday November 06, 2002 at 1:02 pm The Farce at the ICTY: Florence Hartmann, Spokeswoman for the Office of the Prosecutor, made no statement. Questions: * Asked for clarification as to the nature of the ‘contempt of the Tribunal’ which was raised in Furundzija’s motion, Landale replied that, in brief, it was connected to an alleged burglary at the offices of Furundzija’s defence council in Zagreb. * Asked whether there were any new developments in the Milosevic case concerning the accused’s health, Landale replied that all he could say was that Mr. Milosevic was being seen by a doctor every day. The Tribunal would find out in due course whether or not the trial would start again on Monday. * Asked whether Mr. Milosevic’s blood pressure was the reason for the postponement of the trial or whether other reasons had been given such as exhaustion, Landale replied that he believed there was an issue with both of those things, high blood pressure and exhaustion. Mr. Milosevic had complained about exhaustion on Friday. * Asked whether there would be a hearing in the Milosevic case on Monday, or whether it would depend upon the outcome of a medical examination, Landale replied that there was a hearing scheduled. He added that the Tribunal would find out in due course whether the hearing would be cancelled or would go ahead. As soon as the Press Office knew, the media would be informed, he added. * Asked for an update on the situation concerning Bobetko and whether a decision could be expected soon, Landale replied that the issue was pending before the Appeals Chamber. They would take whatever time needed to look at all of the submissions and come to a decision on those submissions. Landale added that he could not say when that would be, it was up to the Appeals Chamber to take as much time as necessary. If the Press Office received any indication of when the Appeals Chamber decision would be rendered, then the media would be informed. * A journalist mentioned the order by Judge May that submissions should be filed within seven days concerning the completion of the Milosevic trial. Asked whether the seven days expired on Friday, Landale replied that the deadline did expire on Friday. Whether the submissions were received early enough on Friday for them to be forwarded on to the media or whether they would be public documents, he did not know at this stage. Again when the Press Office received something it would inform the media. * Asked whether Milosevic himself was supposed to file a submission, Landale replied that Judge May had left that possibility open. * Asked whether redactions were the only changes made to the new Milosevic Croatia Indictment compared to the original Indictment of November 2001, Hartmann replied that reduction of municipalities was one of the four guidelines given by the Chamber. These guidelines were followed by the OTP. ***** Gogol Charlemagne USA Wednesday November 06, 2002 at 2:53 pm If I might add something concerning this Lazarevic fellow. This is Mile Bosnic's statement regarding the testimony that was given on October 30th: __________________________________ Mile Bosnic, former member of the Main Board of the SDS Krajina, president of the municipality of Slunj, deputy minister in the government of Borislav Mikelic. Denial: I know Mr. Lazarevic from Velika Kladusa, but not as an officer of KOS but as an interpreter in the Agrokomerc company of Velika Kladusa and an interpreter in the Kordun Corps. It is strange that he was an officer of KOS when, from the age 18 up until 1984, he was an emigre. Lazarevic had nothing to do with me with respect to weapons by the JNA and the police force because I didn't have any contacts with him whatsoever, nor did I ever, even from Lazarevic, able to receive military weaponry. That is a lie. No rifles, no bombs, no Skorpions, no Motorolas. Never did I get any of this equipment from the man. And no group in Velika Kladusa was ever established or armed. And by that score I was not able to take part in arming anybody or to receive weapons from anybody or to plan any operations of any kind. I left Velika Kladusa of my own free will and in my apartment no weapons were found, nor did I have any problems in Kladusa or need to arm myself and execute operations. Mr. Lazarevic probably knows that up until the second half of November 1991, I was not in contact with any JNA officer because I considered that their stand was neutral and that they were not helping us at all. He also knows that for these same reasons I was not on good terms, or rather, I was in a conflict with the gentleman from MUP (Milos and Toso Pajic), because they communicated with the MUP of Croatia, so I wasn't able to obtain weapons from them either directly or via somebody else. In October and November 1991, I was the director of Radio Television Petrova Gora, and therefore I had nothing to do with weapons there either, or the arming of Velika Kladusa or anywhere else. From the liberation of Slunj onwards. On the 19th of November, 1991 (that means after the military operation)I became president of Slunj, the mayor of Slunj, and I had nothing to do with weapons once again. The events in June 1992 occurred in Jelov Klanac, where the Ustasha terrorist group killed five civilians. Amongst them was a little girl, age 14. The burial took place with a police and army guard present. Between Cetingrad and Sturlic, a crime took place in November 24 1991, when 11 persons were killed, all of them from the Slunj locality. In May 1992, 15 people were killed from the Slunj area around Cetingrad. Having seen Lazarevic in The Hague and hearing his lies about myself and others, and the people I belonged to, the question looms again that I would like to ask Lazarevic: Did he flee from Kladusa because of his gambling debts or because he was persecuted as a Serb? I know why he fled, and this brings me to another question I would like to ask him: Did he sell out his religion for a good meal For a little bit of money and a new identity, has he agreed to be a liar at that so-called court? And what sum is he lying for? __________________________________ If we look at the transcript from October 30th we can see that Lazarevic described Bosnic as a friend: Pg. 12511, ln. 2: "Mr. Bosnic was a family friend and I could have seen him every day." So here we have Mr. Bosnic the friend of Lazarevic saying that he is a liar with a gambling problem. Bosnic issued this statement in regard to claims made by Lazarevic that he was engaged in an arms trafficking operation. You can see the relevant part of the statment in question at Pg. 12510 Lines 9 - 22 of the October 30th trial transcript. Andy Wilcoxson Washington, United States Wednesday November 06, 2002 at 3:44 pm Double-Dutch at the Hague Menagerie – Kangaroo Division “Asked if all the victims found so far had been ethnic Albanians, the Chief Prosecutor [Del Ponte] said yes, most had been Kosovo Albanians. A remarkable answer. She was asked if *all* of the victims found so far were Kosovo Albanians. Her answer, notice, contradicts the premise in the question -- for she answered ‘most’ rather than ‘all’ -- and yet her answer is prefaced with *agreement*: ‘yes, most …’ What a perfect example of Hague double-talk! And how in the world can Del Ponte know that *most* are Albanians without “confirming identification? Isn’t that incoherent?” More from Gil-White on the freezer truck hoax The figures quoted by Gil-White have since been revised in the UN OHCHR Kosovo Report October 2002. From these revised figures we have reason to believe that some 5,300 persons were abducted, murdered and hidden during the Nato bombing campaign of Serbia. Of that total it is possible that as many as 2,800 were the victims of Serb security forces and/or paramilitaries. The KLA was responsible for at least the remaining 2,500 victims: being some 1,360 of the minority populations and some 1,140 loyal Kosovars (according to the testimony of Bujar Bukoshi, Chairman of the New Party for Kosovo). Still only 2.100 bodies have been identified. But this is not the whole story. Nato bombs killed at least 500 persons according to HRW and this figure does not include police and other officials. Nor does it include some 40 victims, mainly children, of unexploded cluster bombs in Kosovo alone. Nor does it include those who have since died of the thousands of horrific injuries. Nor does it include the some 700 of the minorities openly murdered by the KLA and its successors since Nato’s occupation: A grim total of some 4,000 attributable to the KLA/Nato alliance. Not to mention the tens of thousands of horrific injuries, the billions of pounds worth of destroyed, damaged and sequestered property or the quarter of a million of the minorities exiled from Kosovo. Genocide? Now that the true figures begin to appear they paint a different picture to that presented by the prosecution at the ICTY. This does not square with the cynical pronouncements made by Cook, Robertson, Shea among others to the effect that the Serbs got what they deserved. More del Ponte gobbledegook: Earlier this year she promised indictments later in the year for the manifest crimes against humanity committed by the KLA. A short while ago, having resiled from this position on the pretext that she had no witnesses, del Ponte promised an indictment by the end of the year. It looks suspiciously like another rain check coming. Surely del Ponte is aware of the legal requirement upon her to make the indictments upon the basis of the fact alone? After all lack of evidence, clearly demonstrated by the prosecution case, did not stop the indictment of Milosevic. Milosevic did not start the civil war in Kosovo nor the bombing of Serbia. “This trial is part of the great effort to make the peace more secure. It constitutes judicial action of a kind to ensure that those who start a war will pay for it personally.” Robert H. Jackson chief American Prosecutor at Nuremburg. Peter Taylor Herts/UK Wednesday November 06, 2002 at 4:34 pm The ICTY great benefactor is going to trial. Read it HERE Is there justice after all? Gogol Charlemagne Conn. USA Wednesday November 06, 2002 at 9:14 pm (CONTINUATION) Towards the end of the first half of the cross-examination, the witness started to lose the last traces of rationality, so the dialogue went like this - Lazarevic:"You have pulled all the strings from Belgrade and also given orders for the ethnic cleansing of the Croats from Krajina." Milosevic:"Give me one example when somebody told you of receiving such an order from me." Lazarevic:"Everybody knows that." One of the key incriminating "evidence" given by this witness was the claim that the Serbs themselves were killing other Serbs in Krajina, in order to accuse the Croats and create distrust; for that purpose they have even set up a "dirty jobs" unit, which at one point mined a football field in Glina, to arrange killings (later on, however, this was completely forgotten i.e. nothing happened). Another little thing was amiss: the darned original statement said it happened at the football field in Topusko! Again, the typing error was to be blamed (although the first reaction was:"No, I did not say what's written there."). Another tackle by this witness was a heavy innuendo, for example: "General Mile Mrksic told me on one occasion all that he did in Vukovar." It turned out that the General spoke publicly, over a dinner with 30 people present, talking of the military aspect of the operation and certainly not of anything that this innuendo would like to suggest ("all that he did" = war crimes). Our truthful witness then said he was merely present at the table. Milosevic pointed out this is by no means anything like "General told ME" and that even a waiter serving soup could have made a statement that he heard the General talking about Vukovar. The second day of the cross-examination Milosevic read 2 written statements received by the ex-Prime Minister of SAO Krajina Borislav Mikelic and the former Mayor of Slunj Mile Bosnic: both have refuted yesterday's "testimony" given by Lazarevic in the most emphasized wording, stating that the man was never an Army Intelligence officer but a mere interpreter, who ran away from his gambling debts in Velika Kladusa; and the chain of command tendered by him in the form of a diagram is totally false. At this point, of course, May jumped in to help. I forgot to mention that during the first day of cross-examination May was absent, Robinson was the presiding judge and he did his job superbly, i.e. mostly kept his mouth shut. But not our May (who explained he was ill and who still looked a bit yellowish but eager as always to help the Prosecution); he interrupted Milosevic scores of times, especially when he was about to make a point, by asking dumb questions (or rather, playing dumb): "What is the connection here? We did not follow." And when these 2 statements of the Krajina high ex-officials (May always referred to them as "those people") were introduced, he doubled up his interruptions. The witness was instructed to answer each sentence ("Yes, I was known to play poker games with friends, but I ran away from brothers Brajdic, whom I didn't kill.") This didn't help much in watering down the damning info benefiting Milosevic from 2 people not very much in favour of Milosevic. Finally, May flatly refused to let these signed statements to be tendered as defence exhibits. To give you the idea how much this supposed officer knows about his fellow officers, here's the example of one Colonel Karan: he was mentioned many times as a source of important info, but unfortunately it turned out that the witness-fellow officer has no idea which branch of the Intelligence Colonel Karan was in: on page 19 of his statement he was KOS, on page 12 he was SDB. Lazarevic tried to dismiss the discrepancy with superior laughter, saying it was probably just another typo, and that Karan is really KOS. But, listen to his own written statement: "Colonel Mladjo Karan was a member of SDB, and he was very much disliked by KOS people, because of the rivalry of the two services." Does that sound like just a typo, a switch between KOS and SDB?! Sounds more like the guy is making all this up. If you think this is the dumbest explanation for a big inconsistency, listen to this: In a story of bodies exchange which he personally organized (100 dead Krajina fighters for 100 dead Muslims), the Serb side was 10 bodies short, so he tried with many local Serb commanders; some helped him to dig up 4 old corpses "with their hands tied at the back" (this was added just to spice the story, no elaboration). But still there were 6 missing and one of the commanders, a Colonel Pejovic, had 6 live prisoners and laughingly offered them, so our witness just marched away, appalled. Tomorrow morning he was delivered 6 fresh corpses. Innuendo again! The problem is this Colonel Pejovic, vividly described by the witness as a "heavy-set, tall blond man in his forties, very polite; we have met many times and co-operated really well before this." Milosevic innocently asked whether the witness knows the nickname of that man being "Gypsy", on account of his raven black hair and extremely dark complexion? The witness feigned surprise, but then offered a really great explanation: Colonel Pejovic had a really closely cropped crew-cut and a beret, so he was maybe wrong in describing him as being blond! And you know what May did to try to stop this exchange that was totally discrediting the witness? He had the nerve to say that "this is impossible to follow", so Milosevic had to patiently explain that the witness obviously has never seen Colonel Pejovic, let alone co-operated with him, and certainly not in any bodies exchange, which is not something interpreters organize. (TO BE CONTINUED) Sure, Gogol, you may use my writings as you see fit; I see them as public property now. As a matter of fact, I found 4 or 5 of my posts from here pasted into the "Kosovo and the Balkans" thread in GUARDIAN/TALK/INTERNATIONAL, without asking me; I don't mind it. But, nice that you asked. Vera Martinovic Belgrade Yugoslavia Wednesday November 06, 2002 at 10:26 pm ICTY is building the house from the roof down.Had no idea how and why Yugoslavia started to disintegrate , so they sent a delegation to Slovenia to ask President Kulan about it. This shows us why the judges are lost in the Balcan Maze. See B92.net . Nov 6 2002 . Vasile Vasile Ianos NJ Wednesday November 06, 2002 at 11:24 pm Vera, Your posts regarding Lazarevic are very good. Would you permit me to post them on my website (www.slobodan-milosevic.org) ? I will give you full credit. A link that you might find useful is: http://www.slobodan-milosevic.org/trial/trial.htm It has all of the transcripts and a search engine so that thigs can be more easily found in the transcripts. Currently the search engine searches the whole site, but I am trying to get it so that it will only search the transcripts. Andy Wilcoxson Washington, United States Thursday November 07, 2002 at 4:00 am I finished Ahtisaari's memoirs "Mission in Belgrade" yesterday, and I think these things are worth pointing out. We know that the High Representative in Bosnia is actually chosen by the Western powers, and at least in the case of Ashdown, the Bosnians have no say in the election. The British government lobbyed for Ashdown, and indeed with success. But this is not the first time the British lobbyed for Ashdown. They lobbyed for him also to the office of the UN Secretary-General's Special Representative in Kosovo! The French Bernard Kouchner got the job. To add a touch of irony to the whole business, the Dutch government lobbyed for minister Pronk. The same Pronk (Environment Minister) was the one whose idea it was that the Dutch government should step down over the newly published Srebrenica report. In fact, he was the first minister to tender his resignation. Imagine him being the Special Representative in Kosovo at the time. Albright lobbyed for Ahtisaari. She even asked him to reconsider the offer twice. Ahtisaari answered that he was the Finnish president and he would stay in office until the following March when his term would expire. Remember the Russian tanks rolling over from Bosnia to Pristina airport? Ahtisaari thinks this was just the preparation of a larger takeover of Kosovo by the Russian forces. He thinks that Russian special forces were preparing a massive airlift to Kosovo, so that they could secure a Russian zone in the north of Kosovo. I don't know if he has the Russian Spetsnats in mind. You remember that the negotiations on a possible Russian zone in Kosovo were locked at that time. Only, the hypothetical Russian plan was frustrated by the closure of the Romanian and Bulgarian air space, so an airlift was out of the question. That is why the Russian unit at the Pristina airport had to beg the British forces for drinking water! Ahtisaari has reason to believe that the Russians had such a plan. That would explain why Milosevic accepted the peace offer so easily. A Russian reaction would have been natural, because Chenomyrdin came under a heavy attack from all political parties in Russia. He was seen as a traitor. What is more, the Serbs now thought the Russian were traitors. The plan was allegedly devised because the Serbs didn't believe for one minute that Kosovars didn't want independence and that the international community wouldn't give it to them. An interesting twist is the parading of the Trepca and Zvecanin theories from a different angle. Ahtisaari explains that Milosevic didn't really give a damn about Kosovo, but he could see the benefit of securing the rich Trepca complex and the Zvecanin smelter along the river Ibar. As we know, resolution 1244 (1999) established the KFOR troops and the UNMIK troops. A word about the Chinese reactions. The Chinese were still sore about the bombing of their embassy in Belgrade so they abstained from voting. As an excuse the Chinese representative said that the resolution didn't refer in a way to the destruction caused by the bombing campaign nor to tany limits KFOR might have. Earlier, the Chinese representative had raised doubts about the propriety of mentioning the Rambouillet Accord in the resolution, but obviously that didn't affect the Chinese abstention. I think it was very interesting that Ahtisaari mentions that there are 340 murder victims listed in the schedules of the Kosovo indictment. He is certainly clearer than the prosecution. So it bears studying the incidents. As we now know the victims at the Dubrava prison (schedule J) were actually Nato bombing victims. The prosecution says the prison guards gunned them down as they were trying to escape in the mayhem caused by the bombing, but the question then becomes: Why did Nato bomb the prison? I haven't been following the trial since I don't know when, but I read in this discussion that Milosevic had some trouble accounting for Suva Reka in the cross-examination. On the other hand, R.B. says that Bela Crkva and Vucitrn may have been KLA-caused deaths. The indictments lists about 50 deaths at Bela Crkva (3 families and 4 other individuals). In Vucitrn I counted 103 victims. The schedule of the Dubrava prison contains 26 names. That would reduce of the number of "serious contenders" to about 170. If anybody has comments on the incidents that allegedly took place in different localities, "please feel free". The different schedules were Racak (A), Bela Crkva (B), Mali Krusa/Velika Krusa (C), Djakovica (D), Padalishte (E), Izbica (F), Dakovica again (G), Vucitrn (H), Meja (I), Dubrava prison (J), Suva Reka (K), Kacanik (L). I know that the Kosovo phase of the trial is over, but the defence phase will also start soon, so this "brainstorming" will not be to no avail. Of course the ICTY is a trap. If it weren't, the trial wouldn't be what it is. But just setting a trap doesn't mean that you can't be "outtrapped". I think the Security Council resolution are a very good means to bring "outtrapment" about. We learn from the resolutions that UNPROFOR was deployed in Croatia to protect the Serbs, so the Serbs were the victims, not the killers. We also learn that the Federal government of Yugoslavia cut its links to the Bosnian Serbs after they rejected the 49%-50% plan, and the Security Council rewarded the Federal government (in the prosecution's vocabulary: Milosevic) for cutting the links. We learn from the SC resolution that the Croatian forces attacked UNPROFOR zones again in August 1995 (a month after the alleged Srebrenica massacre). Judge May can dismiss the date of the signing of the Vance-Owen Plan as a "general knowledge quiz", but can he really do so if he makes the guys in the Security Council look like fools? For instance, Vance-Owen Plan in question is the stuff Security Council resolution 836(1993) is made of. But other official UN documents are useful too. As to the "joint criminal enterprise" in the Bosnia and Croatia indictment, we know that the Secretary-General commented on the individual criminal responsibility in his Report of 3 may 1993 and said: "The criminal acts set out in this statute are carried out by natural persons; such persons would be subject to the jurisdiction of the International Tribunal irrespective of membership in groups" (§ 51). If the "joint criminal enterprise" is a sanction-busting ring, look at the woes the ICTY benefactor Soros is now having in connection with alleged inside trading in France (Gogol's latest link). However, if the "joint criminal enterprise" is indeed a arms-smuggling ring, this is out of the bounds of the tribunal's jurisdiction. If the logic goes that the such a "contaminated tree" can only bear forbidden fruit and the participants are thus automatically implicated in the crimes allegedly committed by the guns they were smuggling, let us remember one thing. The bombing campaign lacked any valid authorization. According to some, such a contamination can only bear forbidden fruit and thus Nato is responsible for the whole damage caused by the bombing. No amount of "humanitarian intervention" and ICTY-induced indictments should obscure that fact. The principle ex re sed non ex nomine was established in the merits of the celebrated Chorzów Factory case at the PCIJ. Of course, one could argue that if Soros is found guilty of insider trading (in quite another context), how could the tribunal, which is largely reliant on his money, avoid being contaminated by the scam? If the "joint criminal enterprise" refers to the illegality of the use of force by a "failed state", the case should be referred to the ICJ. In so far as it already has, the cases pending at the ICJ have a lis pendens effect over the Milosevic indictment. These case are Legality of Use of Force (Yugoslavia v. Nato countries), Genocide in Bosnia (Bosnia v. Yugoslavia) and Genocide in Croatia (Croatia v. Yugoslavia). Only, accepting Yugoslavia as a process party at the ICJ gives the lie to the prosecution's (and Nato's) argument that Yugoslavia was a "failed state" in any legal meaning. Litigation at the ICJ is open only to States. As Art. 34(1) of the Statute of the ICJ says: "Only states may be parties in cases before the Court". Obviously, Yugoslavia met this requirement even before it was admitted to UN membership as a new member. But of course nothing should be left to the litigation proper alone. The Dutch government should approach the UN Secretary-General, who alone can revoke the immunity of the prosecution. Let the Dutch worry less about Srebrenica and more about the ICTY, because this outrage is something they can still change. Jari Nousiainen Finland Thursday November 07, 2002 at 4:18 am Oh yes, I forgot the Racak massacre (Schedule A). Some good stuff about sanction-busting. This is based on some recent STRATFOR report. I can't find the link in Internet, so here are some excerpts: "Governments in Belgrade and Sarajevo are moving quickly to limit the potential fallout from revelations earlier this week that state-run Bosnian Serb company Orao was selling spare military parts to Iraq through a Yugoslav company called Yugoimport." "Serbian connections with Iraq are largely historical, and their ties have been declining over the last few years as Belgrade has worked more closely with the United States. For Bosnia-Herzegovina, however, the connections with Iraq and other Islamic extremists appear more recent and might end up being much more substantial -- and therefore of greater concern to the United States and its allies. These concerns, fed by a vibrant secret arms trade and the presence of Islamic radicals in Muslim parts of Bosnia, could lead Washington to view the government in Sarajevo with increasing wariness. As a result, a significant paradigm shift could occur for U.S. policy in the Balkans, raising the stature of ethnic Serbs above that of largely Muslim Bosnians for the first time since the early 1990s." "Yugoslavia's political and military connections with Iraq were substantial during former President Slobodan Milosevic's rule. According to Yugoslav government sources, Iraqi military attaches were very active in Belgrade prior to Milosevic's fall, and though the exact nature of that activity is unclear, the most logical explanation is that Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein -- anticipating future problems with the United States -- sought to learn from Yugoslavia's experience in the Kosovo war, particularly its air defense strategies. " J N Finland Thursday November 07, 2002 at 4:35 am Clearly, the US and British governments have different views. The US cannot dismiss the threat of Muslim militants in Bosnia, whereas the British government is trying to make the Iraqi war look good to the European Muslims by seeking all kinds of links between the Bosnian Serbs and Iraq. Britain how said it can "help" Yugoslavia restrict illegal arms trade. It was Blair's lap dog Paddy Ashdown who blew the Orao story out of all proportions. This contradicts some pro-Serb signals that have been coming from Washington. The US may not like the British position, but it need the Brits anyway, because the opinion polls in America say that less that 30% of the population support the war on Iraq if the US is to go it alone. If the US finds a partner (read: Britain), the support will rise to a little over 50%. J N Finland Thursday November 07, 2002 at 6:37 am Jari: URL concerning the alleged Dubrava Prison massacre: http://emperors-clothes.com/articles/jared/sp-comment.htm Other sites indicate that the prison was repeatedly bombed after the visit by the BBC’s Jacky Rowland: The polymath war correspondent whose remarkable powers render forensic science redundant by divining causes of death in her novel process of casual observation. Surely whatever reason Nato claims for its repeated bombardment of the Dubrava Prison it is still a war crime? It also says a lot for Nato’s concern for the prisoners who were mainly, but not entirely, of Albanian ethnicity. We saw this same ‘concern’ by Anglo/US forces in Afghanistan when incarcerated prisoners of war were bombed and shot like sitting ducks, some with their hands bound. Why have we not seen testimony from Serb inmates of the prison? Hopefully Milosevic will be allowed to present such evidence during his defence – if he lives that long. Peter Taylor Herts/UK Thursday November 07, 2002 at 6:50 am Mr. Noussianen wrote: [..] The NOS Nieuws is also quite clear that Naser Oric [..] Mr Noussianen, which NOS bulletin are you referring to, please? NOS broadcast a few dozen bulletins every day, so I'd be grateful if you could be more specific. Thank you. Frank Tiggelaar Amsterdam Holland Thursday November 07, 2002 at 8:25 am pero - very well written, bleiburg....all i can say is... "koga jebe" i know of it as the beginning of about 5 or so years of great upheaval of many croat people, who found themselves at the end of wwII on the wrong side (ustasa). the partisan reprisal killings were monstrous and deliberate...yet no doubt partisan croats were involved in killing fascist croats there as well. it has all been written about quite persuasively by one nikolai tolstoy, i think.... anyway..apparently..close to 10% of croatia's people were liquidated by tito for being enemies of the state. many hundreds of thousands left.....such as my parents. the reason for so many croat's hardline stance in the diaspora today stems not from the insanity of the Ustasa regime.....rather the memory of their desertion and deliverance by british troops to the partisans...in bleiburg... i don't believe the statistics provided by yugoslavia, as it was in the national interest to hide the truth about these events. thus croats in the diaspora felt hard done by. nobody knew about the croats dying in bleiburg and on death marches, yet everybody knew about croat terrorists and fascists.. terrible rumours were spread...one was the ante pavelic had a bucket of eyeballs by his desk....as a momento of the people his troops had slaughtered. all the while UDBA made sure that democratically acting croats in the disapora were hounded and spied upon at every opportunity. the figures of croats killed were hidden...while tito made sure all knew about the evil croats...despite the fact that he himself was one. thus there was a sense of betrayal. i see the ustasa as betraying croats by giving dalmatia to the friggin' italians, and by abolishing the croatian sabor (which had been in existence since 1034, or something like that) it is a similar feeling actually among the croats and serbs, i think ... they felt they had been hard done by in yugoslavia... yet interestingly i have been given the impression here that it was croats who were willing to leave yugoslavia (which i believe to be true) yet serbs were willing to suffer in a yugoslavia they weren't so happy about. i know from some serbs here in australia that they hated the communists as much as i did. now however....bleiburg doesn't matter..nor should have it mattered at any time.... just like wwII shouldn't have mattered to the events that have since occurred. they aren't a continuation.... they never were.... unfortunately the wrong people in power, who rose to power from this misconception, made them seem so. i had a talk to my sister about it last week she, an Australian citizen, had been to yugoslavia once...when she was 4 years old and she voted in the croatian elections in 1990 at the age of 18. she chose the Hrvatska Stranka Prava. God help me....i have been washing my hands ever since trying to rid myself of the stench of HOS. ivan kokotovic sydney australia Thursday November 07, 2002 at 10:13 am Mr Tiggelaar. This is the link I have been using. "De moslimstrijders onder leiding van de meedogenloze Naser Oric laten zich in het geweld niet onbetuigd. Vanuit de enclave voeren ze raids uit op Servisch gebied waarbij veel slachtoffers worden gemaakt. De blinde haat tussen de twee bevolkingsgroepen wordt er alleen maar heviger door." The Muslim militants of the merciless Naser Oric raid the Serbian area from the enclave. This results in a number of casualties. The blind hate between the two population groups gets thus only fiercer. Jari Nousiainen Finland Thursday November 07, 2002 at 11:44 am I browsed the NOS summary a little more. I found quite interesting things I hadn't noticed before. This is how the text goes on. I think I can now use quotation marks. "The Dutchbatters are not necessarily sympathetic to the Muslims. Many Dutch soldiers have more respect (in secret or not) for the disciplined Bosnian Serb army than for the unruly army of the Bosnian government and the troops of such warlords as Oric. The Muslim fighters in the enclave keep the Dutchbat in the enclave quite busy. The situation often reaches the boiling point." "The suspicion towards the Muslims reaches its highest level when the Dutch soldier Raviv van Rensen gets killed. The Dutch soldier sat on a tank when it came under Serb fire. Rensen and his companions wanted to retreat, but the Muslim fighters demanded that the Dutch fight the Serbs with them. When the tank didn't stop, one of the Muslims threw a handgranade that injured Rensen fatally". The ongoing parliamentary inquiry and stuff like that show that the victims can get a lot of heat even in Nato. J N Finland Thursday November 07, 2002 at 12:12 pm Another article. This is the link to El Pais from the TENC comment on the Dubrava prison (given by Peter): http://emperors-clothes.com/news/sp-news.htm . One little thing in the article explains how the prosecution does the trick of shifting the blame on the Serb forces. At the bottom of the El Pais article we can see that more than 100 prisoners got killed. Yet Schedule A only contains 26 names. So the prosecution has abandoned those victims that were killed by the bombing and lists only those that got shot down by the guards. The 1000-dollar question (the second so far): What was the guards crime? Shooting prisoners? Wasn't that what Nato did - with even more devastating results? You mean the prosecution could have double standards? Come on! A quotable quote from the same article: "It gives the impression that the Serbs gave a choice to the families to leave their homes. If some member of the clan, for whatever reason, decided to remain, upon returning they were found dead from a shot or by whatever other method." J N Finland Thursday November 07, 2002 at 3:50 pm Saturday, July 31, 1999 Dutch U.N. soldiers seen giving Hitler salute in Bosnia, says paper THE HAUGE: Several Dutch soldiers posted with United Nations troops in Bosnia in 1995 regularly engaged in right-wing behaviour and gave Hitler salutes, according to press reports Friday. A small group of dutch soldiers had regularly given Hitler salutes and discriminated against both Muslim local people and soldiers in their own unit who belong to ethnic minorities, the daily De Volkskrant reported, citing top-secret Dutch military documents, reports UNI. Dutch military commanders in Bosnia reportedly did little to stop the group of right-wing soldiers. The report said that the officers apparently also expressed their prejudices against Muslims. The local population of Srebrenica - then a United Nations ''safe area'' - increasingly rejected the peacekeepers due to this behaviour, according to De Volkskrant. Dutch soldiers with the United Nations force in Bosnia came under fire for their actions during the fall of the Muslim enclave of Srebrenica to Serbian forces in the Bosnian war in 1995. Serbian forces took Srebrenica in the autumn of 1995 and scattered the local population. The U.N. peacekeepers - who were there to protect the people of Srebrenica - did not step in. An investigation later revealed that hundreds of Moslem men were murdered. According to De Volkskrant, defence minister Frank De Grave has turned the military documents over to police investigators. The Dutch military counter-espionage service had reportedly received word of the right-wing dutch soldiers' activities but not reported them to the defence minister, the paper said. When De Grave heard of the alleged cover-up, he urged the head of the Dutchmilitary counter-espionage service to step down, according to De Volkskrant. Gogol Charlemagne USA Thursday November 07, 2002 at 4:15 pm The aforementioned misbehavior of UN soldiers from democratic countries pales, however, in comparison with several decisions of the UN's top institutions that have major racist aspects. According to an official UN report, up to 20,000 Bosnian Muslims were killed in and around the "safe areas" that the Security Council had established for their protection, while knowing that the UN member states did not intend to provide the necessary forces to protect them. Click on it to read the full article. Gogol Charlemagne Conn. USA Thursday November 07, 2002 at 4:30 pm A lie here a lie there, some truth here some truth there, a Nazi here a Nazi there, but blame the Serbs everywhere . . . Gogol Charlemagne USA Thursday November 07, 2002 at 6:39 pm (CONTINUATION) To confirm his Army Intelligence status, Lazarevic stated he owned a diplomatic passport, so Milosevic simply aksed him to be so kind and produce it. The Prosecution jumped in, offering a smudged photocopy, which placed on the ELMO was proven to be a mere service passport for an interpreter accompanying a delegation going to one peace conference. Strange, I thought the Prosecution should know the difference; but no, they just included this stupitidy as the "exhibit", following the rule of "the more, the merrier". The spy story was needed to add weight to this flimsy witness, so his whole testimony was peppered with the relevant jargon (briefing, debriefing, "recruiting", hit job troikas etc.). But listen to another bubble bursting: The witness had described in detail how he was present as the "liaison officer" at all the numerous peace conferences in 1994 in Geneva, Austria and Norway, where CRO and Krajina tried to reach some agreement, "helped" by the EU politicos (while the Operation Storm was being prepared). The Krajina delegation would come to Belgrade each time, he would remain at the hotel, the military part of the delegation would go to the YU General Staff HQ (to Gen. Perisic) and the civilian part to Milosevic's cabinet, to be briefed and instructed to stall and obstruct the negotiations. But in his written statement the witness was miraculously present at all those briefings: "I would read out loud the agenda, and then the representative of the YU Govt. would instruct us..." The explanation of the discrepancy by the witness? "I have insisted this part to be expunged from the statement, because I have never said that." Milosevic: "Then, why this is still in your statement?" Witness: "You know, people make mistakes..." It was getting worse all the time: the President of SAO Krajina Goran Hadzic phoned YU President Lilic to consult during the conference in Geneva - but alas, Goran Hadzic was never part of the delegation at this particular conference! The witness was truthful once more: "Well, I could be wrong, maybe he wasn't there, I spoke relying on my memory..." Milosevic: "Is it true that the line of separation had been agreed then?" Witness: "Yes." Milosevic: "So, it is not true that nothing ever was agreed and that they got the instructions not to agree on anything?" Witness: "Well, yes... but that was not implemented later!" When testifying about another conference, the witness described how Goran Hadzic, addressed as "Mr President" in the hotel lobby by "the US Ambassador and some other Ambassadors, I think Canadian", responded that he's merely "a dispatcher", the innuendo being he was just delivering messages from a potent player behind - Milosevic. The same lobby talk, described in the written statement, was a one-to-one with the witness, the wretched Hadzic feeling his inadequacy in all that international whirlwind conferencing, sincerely complained to the attentive, sympathetic interpreter that he used to be "just a simple warehouse manager" before the war, i.e. dispatching goods! Now, that's a creative story twisting. The icing on the cake came at the end: Milosevic faced the witness with his last 4 years in Belgrade: jumping companies, first as an employee then as a founder, debts, frauds cum police record (one of his ventures was a FIVE STAR Co. selling time-sharing deals for fictitious apartments in Spain and Malta, collecting money in advance and then disappearing).The witness finished his YU career by running away with just one suitcase, leaving behind his wealth "earned" in those few years (house, Mercedes, Porsche...) Then came the confused decisions by May, first to exhibit the written statement of this witness under seal "because his new identity could be revealed", but then the troika conferred a bit, realizing that such a decision might look bad in their attempt to appear as doing justice, so they decided after all to exhibit it without seal, but first to leave out these identity-revealing parts. I hope those numerous discrepancies will not be left out as well. Lazarevic has been already given a new identity and is working as a Security Supervisor at an international airport somewhere. Who is then "Slobodan Lazarevic"? This person exists no more. And, I almost forgot to mention the cheap trick the Prosecution has already used before: the sudden switching from protected to unprotected status. Lazarevic figured as C-001 until his first day at the courtroom. Why the change? Officially, he needs no protection now that he has changed his name and has been relocated. Real reason? To make data collecting more difficult for the Defence. (The same trick was applied for the next witness who started his testimony before this break, Candic - originally C-034). The trick obviously didn't work for Lazarevic: he exposed the falsity of his testimony by overdoing it. Liars often talk too long and add too many details, to quote Prof. Gil-White. Andy, it's OK to use my posts if you want. I've visited your site - a really worthy effort. Vera Martinovic Belgrade Yugoslavia Thursday November 07, 2002 at 10:55 pm Attempts to eliminate the name “Yugoslavia” and replacing it with “Serbia and Montenegro” is an attempt to further destabilize the region. Eliminating the name also eliminates a symbol for some future association which I think is in the interest of the people if not the politicians and the international community. Yugoslavia’s close tie with the Middle East nations as well as with the nations of North Africa goes back, way before Milosevic, to the founding of the Non-Aliened Movement (Nehru, Nasser, and Tito). This movement became a thorn in America’s control of the UN. Since these nations voted as a block and since they outnumbered American supporters and since the Non-Aliened nations voted, most of the time, with the Communist Block, America’s only option was not to pay her dues to UN agencies that deviated from what America wanted. The other option was to punish the Nations that were the founders of the movement. As a result India and Egypt and to a lesser extent Yugoslavia drew closer to the Soviets. For Yugoslavia the ties to the Third World nations were mostly economic. These nations provided a market for manufactured goods from Yugoslavia that could not be sold in Western Europe. Also these nations had oil that Yugoslavia needed, while Yugoslavia manufactured weapons that they wanted. Yugoslavia also had expertise in its people such as, truck drivers, bulldozer operators, welders, construction workers, technicians and so on. One or two years in Iraq, Algeria or Libya provided a better life at home. Those that went to Western Europe and North America usually stayed while those that went to the Third World almost always came back home so the government encouraged this bridge building with the Third World nations. The ties with Middle East and North Africa were maintained even during the war. Tanks manufactured (I think Slavonski Brod for one million a piece) were shipped to Kuwait by agreement between Croatia and Yugoslavia and they shared the profits. “The defense industry also generated large export orders. For instance, Yugoslavia sold long-range 262mm Orkan MRLs to Iraq”, also “its main customers (70% of exports) are Iraq and Libya. Zavodi Crvena Zastava supplied weapons to both Iraq and Iran during the Iraq-Iran war, showing that Yugoslavia's non-alignment policy was just doublespeak “. America wanted to eliminate the weapons industry of Yugoslavia. First of all Yugoslavs sold weapons to both friends and foes of America and second the weapons industry in Yugoslavia was competition for America since “The Yugoslav Army is the largest Yugoslav industry. With annual exports of $3 billion, the Yugoslav Army, whose main offices are in Serbia, is twice as large as the second largest Yugoslav industry, tourism, which is based mainly in the coastal regions of Croatia. After the fall of the Berlin Wall, self-destruction of the Warsaw Pact and the end of the Cold War, countries that have been living off arms sales suffered a harsh economic crisis, as we have seen in the US and Serbia. California, for example, reported a fall in its growth rate of 30% and layoffs of 600,000 workers, mainly from California's large weapons plants.” (http://balkansnet.org/yugoslavery.html) One of NATO’s aims was to eliminate this weapons industry, however, the ties between the Middle East and other pariah Muslim nations continued even after the breakup of Yugoslavia. Recently, however, some 20 or so Croatian workers were killed by Muslim fundamentalists in Algeria and as a result the number of workers seeking a quick buck has declined. Here I go bickering with Ivan again. Ivan please break-up your post into paragraphs by using front pointing arrow, < followed by a letter p followed by a back pointing arrow >. You write “... i don't believe the statistics provided by Yugoslavia” but why should we believe the statistics that you provide. Please give me some evidence of what you claim to be facts. Ivan you also write “nobody knew about the croats dying in bleiburg and on death marches, yet everybody knew about croat terrorists”. I know about Bleiberg and I also know about the Croat terrorists who high-jacked planes and killed innocent workers in embassies. Name one incident of Serbian terrorism in the post WWII period please and I will never speak of Croat terrorists again. You write that “croats in the disapora were hounded and spied upon”. Yes they were and some justly so since they sponsored the Croat terrorism in the sixties and seventies. My best man was an RCMP officer whose main job was to track Croat terrorists in Canada. There were three Croat terrorist training camps in BC alone during the 1970’s so should this be swept under the carpet???? Ivan, you disappoint me with your racist statement about the Italians when you say that the Ustase “by giving dalmatia to the friggin' Italians” betrayed Croatia when in fact they lessened the evil committed by the Ustase elsewhere in Croatia. Italians refused to allow the kind of atrocities committed by the Ustase inn their area of control and it was the Italians that saved thousands of Serbs in Dalmatia from the extermination camps of Jasenovac, Gospic and Ploce.. Ivan, you also write that “wwII shouldn't have mattered to the events that have since occurred”. Wow!!!!! Ivan, the history that we have lived for the past fifty years is directly related to the events of WWII and we should not eliminate its lessons out of hand. Your sister, I would assume is an Aussie citizen and she had a right to vote on the future of Croatia while the Serbs in Croatia, as well as the Serbs from Croatia in the Diaspora had no such rights. This sums up my view of Croatian democracy at that time. To get back to the indictment and some comments about the events in Bosnia a British soldier (I.R. Thornton, Interpreter Sergeant, British Army Vitez Bosnia) writes in a letter to Time magazine “As a British soldier who has served widely in Bosnia for seven month now, I feel I must take issue with the reporting from this region (May 17) In the case of the Muslim town of Srebrenica, your articles have been scathing about the Bosnian Serbs and their shelling of the town. However, you have failed to address the question of where the Serbian Population of Srebrenica was. The Serbs made up 30% of the prewar population. Early in the conflict, they were forced out of their homes with whatever belongings they could carry and ordered to leave. As the Bosnian Serbs flee, Muslims fired wildly on men, women and children on the road. The story was told to British soldiers in Srebrenica by Muslims themselves and later by Serbs. Earlier this year, Bosnian Muslims launched their offensive in eastern Bosnia, bombing Bosnian Serb villages, raping women and destroying livestock. I realize that this makes me sound like an apologist for the Bosnian Serbs. I know what they are doing is terrible. But the press has a moral duty to report objectively. The media are creating a “Let’s do something: let’s bomb the Serbs; let’s arm the Muslims” rhetoric that is very dangerous. We in Europe understand the Balkan chicanery and cunning far better than the Americans do. We do not want to see ourselves further embroiled in a morass where there is no one side that is uniquely culpable. A British soldier sees three bodies of Croat children who have had their throats cut by Muslims soldiers. Does he want to see those Muslims with bigger and better weapons? Please be more objective.” To conclude the ICDSM, Jared Israel’s group needs our help so please go to the web page http://emperors-clothes.com and if you can contribute do so they need our help. You too Frank T. Walter Trkla Kamloops BC Canada