MILOSEVIC TRIAL DISCUSSION ARCHIVE
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————————————————————————————— Former Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic is on trial for war crimes in the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia at The Hague. This marks the first time a head of state has been personally prosecuted before an international criminal court. Is Slobodan Milosevic getting a fair trial? ———————————————————————————— NOTICE: Comments posted to this discussion board are solely the responsibility of individual posters, and not of JURIST, its owner, operators, host or staff. JURIST reserves the right to block or remove posts that are in violation of law or that advocate illegal acts, that are obscene, disruptive, defamatory, threatening, harassing or abusive, that are in breach of intellectual property rights, rights of publicity or rights of privacy, that are advertisements or solicitations, or that are not related to the topic being discussed. ———————————————————————————— discussion archive Wednesday July 17, 2002 at 9:28 am The celebrated nineteenth century historian, Lord Acton, wrote “Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.” That is the danger facing the world in an era devoid of any countervailing superpower. Blair and his cronies would never have attacked Serbia during the pomp of the USSR. In my opinion Me-too Tony has been availing himself of US power for his own unprincipled reasons: The KLA and its offspring know who is supremely responsible for them securing the loan of Nato’s air force: hence the proposed unveiling of Blair’s statue in Pristina later this summer. It is never a principled action to support a terrorist organisation. In a unique position to prevent the unprincipled attack on Serbia demanded by Albright, Blair instead upped the anti and thus tilted the balance in favour of the KLA. He upstaged an impeachment weakened President Clinton and dismayed many other European leaders. In his next sentence Acton wrote “Great men are almost always bad men.” Peter Taylor Herts/UK Wednesday July 17, 2002 at 11:44 am The so called "Nüremberg Trials" were conducted in an International Military Tribunal not as bad as the Bush Administration proposed Military Commissions but never the less designed to glorify victor's revenge. Since Stalin and Churchill would have executed most of the Nazi upper leadership without much ado, the Americans, the new players in the block and the great winners of the war wanted to show their "faith" in justice, their justice that is to say the New World's justice. Judge May(NATO) of the ICTY often referres to Mr. Milosevic case as "in cases like these, we should do this, or that" and I wonder what "cases like these" is he referring to since the Nüremberg and Tokyo (yet another set of rules and criteria) nothing of this kind has taken place in the world of international justice. Gogol Charlemagne Conn. USA Wednesday July 17, 2002 at 5:26 pm ICTY International Court of Traducers and Yes-men. A few days ago a Bosnian court, operating under the overall jurisdiction of the ICTY since 1996, convicted Bosnian Serb soldier Sretko Damjanovic to nine and a half years imprisonment. This is how his sentence was determined: by the amount of time he had already served after being convicted, at least in part, on false testimony. This is justice? How very convenient for the ICTY. This was his fourth sentence after several trials for the same crimes. Previously he was sentenced to death for genocide including the murder of two Muslim brothers Kasim and Asim Blekic, both later found to be alive. He was then sentenced to 40 years. This was commuted to 20 years when a third of his alleged victims was found to have been killed by someone else. What manner of men is it that can bear false testimony likely to lead to the execution of the accused: What manner of men is it that remain silent while someone is falsely accused of their murder: What manner of court system is it that allows its witnesses to perjure themselves on so serious a matter without redress? It is a court system trying Milosevic, which is supported by Blair and his cronies and the vast majority of the western media. And we know what manner of men that doth that make them all. Sources: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/decani/message/68154 http://news.serbianunity.net/forums/read.php?f=3&i=27610&t=27610 Peter Taylor Herts/UK Wednesday July 17, 2002 at 7:52 pm 1. I did not claim that America is an open, democratic society, Walter ... although I left the possibility open. If you re-read my posting, I considered the possibility that we have rotted through. 2. Jari, V. Putin's withdrawal of recognition of smaller political parties doesn't indicate a government/country more open -- "liberal" -- than the West. I respect Putin, but he seems quite ready to revert to authoritarianism if/when he sees it as necessary for Mother Russia's good ... as he sees that. The Milosevic trial has terribly discredited the West's institutions of law and justice in the eyes of the East. Lou Coatney Macomb Illinois USA Thursday July 18, 2002 at 4:23 am I am not holding a brief for the Russians, but to get this thing in perspective let me point out the following. In Russia you can get assassinated, not because of what you say, but because of what you have. One of the places where you can get assassinated because of what you say (and in which language you say it) is the US-created hellhole in Kosovo. The Western media cannot stand the thought that after Glasnost, the Russian media has more liberty than it does itself. So every time a Russian media-mogul gets in trouble, this hits the headlines in the West. It has even been said in this discussion that our media is more tightly regulated than in Cuba. The Milosevic trial is a case in point. It is amazing that the Americans still think of the Russians in terms of the old Soviet stereotypes. In this perspective it is equally amazing that they haven't criticized Russia for not ratifying the ICC statute for fear of Chechenia indictments, while the US has unsigned the same statute. Revoking the recognition of some smaller parties doesn't mean authoritarianism. The two major de facto two-party systems, the US and the UK, should know that the small parties can be a problem. Even V. Putin's cutting the red tape doesn't in itself mean authoritarianism. I just don't think he's that kind of guy. The Russians or other Slavs would be an indispensable element in saving the credibility of the Milosevic trial. As Lou correctly pointed out, this trial is discrediting the Western legal institutions, though not only in the eyes of the East, but also of the West itself. Is it any wonder that the UK is now limiting (according to the Telegraph, I believe it was) the use of jury in criminal trials and restricting the rights of the accused in general? As Gogol suggested, the Americans set up the Nuremberg trials to portray their faith in justice. Stalin was fixated with his "no man-no problem" crusade, so he was not much use. I have never heard that the Soviets played any part at Nuremberg. That image has stuck. The Western leaders now want to play WW II war heroes, and when the Nuremberg stage is reached, the Russians are automatically excluded. It doesn't work this time. The perception is that the Russians are excluded only because they might see the Serbian point of view. So much for "justice". Another difference with the Nuremberg trial is that the crime of war of aggression was deliberately left out of the ICTY statute. No wonder, the ICTY itself was conceived as part of the US aggression. Take another look at the statement made by Warren Christopher (which is quoted at the URL I pasted above: http://www.aikor.de/InterTribunal/doku/twcarr4.htm ). The Secretary of State Christopher said in March 1993: "If the Bosnian Serbs do not sign, we will take measures to tighten sanctions against Serbia and Montenegro, increase humanitarian aid to Bosnia, take further steps for establishing an international war crimes tribunal and, hopefully, have a resolution enforcing the no-fly zone in Bosnia next week. The US is also considering a lifting of the embargo on delivering arms to Bosnian Muslims". All the threats were carried out. It strikes as odd that humanitarian aid was singled out as part of the American game plan. It should also strike as odd that a "mediator" issues threats at all, although we have become accustomed to that thought by now, if the mediator is an American. A third difference with Nuremberg is that Germany was completely beaten. One legal theory even says that Germany ceased to exist as a state. Was Yugoslavia beaten? By no means. Nato called it a victory. But so did Milosevic. So the ICTY is victor's justice only in the sense that it decides the victory. War is a continuation of politics by different means, and now the judicial system is a continuation of war by different means. Milosevic wasn't beaten until he was transferred to The Hague. But that is exactly the reason he had to be transferred. The German leaders were beaten before the trial, so they could stay in Germany. Mr Prosper's suggestion that Milosevic should be transferred back to Serbia is more generous than the setting in which he himself was working in. The Rwanda tribunal is not situated in Rwanda but in Arusha in Tanzania, as far as I know. I hope Mr Prosper can persuade the rest of the administration. This would show that Mr Bush is "a practical man", as he says he is, and one who is willing set aside past grievances for the sake of achieving a common goal. As one SFOR general has said, the new world order that we envisaged a few years ago has turned out to be a disorder. We should reinforce success, not waste resources reinforcing failure. Jari Nousiainen Finland Thursday July 18, 2002 at 11:08 am I have no words to express my gratitude for what you're doing with your effort to help the truth come out. It's hard to express what pain do all the Serbs carry in them from the 90s on. What can be more destructive to a person then to accuse him of a crime that he was a victim of? To say to victim of a horrible crime that he is guilty for showing resistance. That he should appologise to his tormentors and ask their forgiveness. That he should provide proofs that he is guilty, so that everybody can see that he's sorry. If he, god forbid, starts explaining this injustice, he's called rasist, slobo's man etc. What is left for this man to believe in? That a world is a very cruel, cold place. That there is no justice, just interests of the strong. We may be ten times more persuasive and good and educated and right, still world will believe some uneducated, fed with hatred and anti-serb propaganda from childhood, albanian drug dealer playing victim. I would like to answer the lady who commented on the fact that Serbs have forcefully sent Lilic to Hague, she was wondering if it is at all worth it to support Serbs when they are behaving like that. Understand, please, that we've fought the whole world for 10 years. With each year passing it was getting worse and worse for our country. The more the West was destroying us, the more they threatened us and demanded from us and more lies and filth they served to the world. As long as we didn't cooperate, we would be molested by 'righteous hawks' like Madlen Albright, Tony Blair etc and the world would applaud them thanks to bad image they've presented of us. If we didn't give up, we would probably be like Avghanistan by now. Our economy is in shambles, reputation is ruined (we will be considered savages for next 50 years). There are lot of muslim citizens in Serbia who are already making plans of separating another part of our territory - Sandzak. In southern Serbia Albanians by force tried to separate some villages and join them with Kosovo. Propaganda in Montenegro is so high anti-serb biased that the people there are very eager to say bye-bye to Yugoslavia, although our nations were traditional allies. Northern province of Serbia - Vojvodina, largely populated by Hungarians is also having an appetite to separate. Every national minority in Serbia nowadays wants to use the bad image of Serbs in the world to achieve some kind of authonomy or separation. So how we could in this position afford ourselves to keep confronting the biggest power in the world? We have no wish to become extinct like american indians just to have people realize 300 years later how unjust it was. We have to play by the rules of America, but keep inside us the real truth. And hope that some day the balance in the world changes so demonization of the Serbs stops. Only then it would be possible to have a real war crimes court which I sincerely would support, since it could prevent politicians from starting wars like the ones we've had. Bogdan Oparnica Belgrade Yugoslavia Thursday July 18, 2002 at 2:46 pm More on Liars. Kosovo Viceroy Steiner’s recent conjecture that the 1500 Serbs and other minorities abducted in Kosovo must have been murdered is proving sadly true. Speaking this Tuesday of ten Serb bodies found hidden in Pristina the Head of the joint UNMIK and Serb forensic team had this to say: “Identification was completed on July 11 and 12, and we established that all the victims, excluding one woman who died of natural causes were first kidnapped and then killed, in 1999, upon arrival of KFOR in Kosovo-Metohija,” How can Blair, his cronies and his compliant Western media continue with their one-sided myth of ‘The nasty “lying Serbs” versus the can-do-no-wrong KLA and its offspring’ in the face of these continuing horrific revelations? Three years is well past the time when Mr Blair, his cronies and his compliant media, who are principally responsible for this situation, ought to start doing something to correct it. Where are the remaining 1490 or so bodies and who murdered them? Concerning the other hundreds of known murders, since KFOR’s arrival, when is del Ponte going to indict the leaders of the people responsible. The “Hell hole” created in Kosovo by Nato needs action not excuses manufactured in the ICTY (International Court of Traducers and Yes-men). More than three years after Nato took control there are still terrorist actions being carried out on the few remaining of the minorities. Just a few days ago the congregation at the Zociste Monastery was subjected to verbal abuse and stoned. The Monastery was set on fire after the congregation had left. Elsewhere close on 150 Churches, Monasteries and other religious sites have been destroyed or damaged. Cemeteries are regularly desecrated and the bones of the deceased scattered for dogs and other animals to abuse. George Carey, senior Bishop of the Church of England sanctioned the bombing of Serbia - a Christian Archbishop would you believe? Now he has nothing to say on the dreadful abuse of his fellow Christians? The so-called Christian Mr Blair should put down the copy of the Koran, which he occasionally likes to parade around with - God knows why (he takes the book for a walk) unless its more of his famous spin, and start doing something to repair the damage in Serbia for which he, among all the Nato leaders, is principally responsible. Kosovo is a Province of Serbia. Source on murdered Serbs: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/decani/message/68199 Sources on continuing terror attacks: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/decani/message/68131 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/decani/message/68164 Peter Taylor Herts/UK Thursday July 18, 2002 at 6:02 pm Yes Bogdane I understand that the last ten years have been devastating for the Yugoslavs, especially the Serbs. I am sure you understand your history and I don’t need to remind you of centuries of Turkish oppression and centuries of working for the Turkish overlords. I don’t need to remind you of thousands of Slav children, mostly Serbian, who were kidnapped and taken back to Turkey to serve as Janissaries. ### In WWI one in three adults lost their life and WWII was no kinder. I lost my father in that war and I remember as a child gathering bird’s eggs, stinging nettle, and acorns for food. The people endured the hardships of hunger, being barefoot and covered in lice. ### I was adopted by my uncle who lived in Canada. An address was attached to my jacket “c/o Chris Trkla Yellowknife NWT Canada. You may say it is easy for me to say what I will write in this next paragraph. Yes it is but it is still the truth. ### Why is it that every generation from that part of the world must flee? And why is it that every generation must find an excuse for not enduring and fighting injustice. Yes you endured many days of NATO bombing and you continue to endure the lies by the media. Yes you endured economic sanctions and you are still enduring them. My questions are “How can you justify a nation living on its knees so that the economy will be better?” How can you justify having people like Djindjic leading your province?### “Better to live one day on your feet than a lifetime on your knees”. “Bolje grob nego rob” --- “Better a grave than a slave”. Where are the protests in the streets of Belgrade? There should be protests in every village, every city against the traitors who are selling out your nation and its people to this illegal Tribunal. There must be people in the Serbian, Muslim and Croat community who have not lost the Yugoslav vision? Why is it that the separatists are listened to more than the unifiers? Why is it that in the Diaspora these three communities, for the most part, continue to socialize with one another? What kind of leaders do you have that will send its own people to a Tribunal created by Madeleine Albright? What kind of people will remain silent while their nationals are taken to The Hague just for defending their country? The Israelis would not do it. The Croats did not do it. The Muslims in the Middle East would not do it. Is there a Buk Brankovich genetic trait in the Serbian character? It seems that every generation has its Brankoviches. Bogdan try and answer some of these questions for I am lost in my ability to understand how a proud nation that endured the Ustase extermination camps at Jasenovac, the execution by the Nazis of 1700 children in Kragujevac, can be subdued by American economic sanction when it was not subdued by Nazi bullets? Walter Trkla Kamloops BC Canada Thursday July 18, 2002 at 7:04 pm The picture is not so glim as Walter Trkla thinks: Slobodan Milosevic is standing alone at The Hague defending himself and Yugoslavia and the World is watching. It is true the World is a rather complicated universe of contradictions but the example of Mr. Milosevic, even when the trial is under reported and distorted at that, will inspire many. Serbia is facing elections, they will not be free elections becasue Serbia and Yugoslavia is now run not by her people but by outside interests. Mr. Milosevic was abducted to The Hague by decree in violation of the Yugoslav constitution and law just before the Yugoslav Suprem Court ruled on the legality of the decree. At that time the International Criminal Court was not born yet and the triumphal West claimed to be the champion of international justice. Now of course it is easy to call for the sacrosaint national jurisdinction and ask for the sending back to Belgrade Mr. Milosevic to have a "fair" trial and forget about the so called "Nüremberg Principle". In fact back in 1945 Colonel Howard Brundage who had been deputy chief of the US War Crimes Office and the interrogator of Ribbentrop left the NMIT in disagreement with the US Prosecutor Robert Jackson over the extent of the indictement spreading well beyond the jurisdiction of a military court and war crimes. He also dennounced establishing a precedent that would allow victors in any future conflict to indict and try any defeated nation. (!) At the end of World War One an atempt was made to make Germany responsible for the war. I believe this is still today an open question. War crimes trial were conducted in Germany under pressure from the allies. Until then war crimes trials had been conducted jointly by defeated and victors since a war crime had to meet the criteria which applied to all belligerant nations. Obviously the World has changed and not for the better. Gogol Charlemagne Conn. USA Friday July 19, 2002 at 12:58 am As the prosecution is about to wrap up its case it is striking how short it fell of the stated goal. Carla’s decision to bag some of the charges in order to speed up the trial (i.e. convict Milosevic) only proved her disregard for the legally due process, in which ALL CHARGES would have counted. If she had a real case that is, which she does not. The move was an evidence of desperation, not of confidence. This is after 6 months of near monopoly on information available and boundless resources at her disposal, backed by the most powerful military, intelligence, legal, financial, and media support she could master. The result? Dismal to say the least. What shape the prosecution will be in AFTER Milosevic calls HIS witnesses? In addition to those already planned it would be prudent of Milosevic to call the following players to the witness stand: WARREN ZIMMERMANN, the last U.S. ambassador to Belgrade, responsible for sabotaging the Lisbon agreement, signed by Izetbegovic in March 1992, and whose endorsement of the referendum on the Bosnian independence contrary to the already signed agreement was the major factor that triggered the Bosnian war. THOMAS DEICHMANN, a former defense witness in the Dusan Tadic trial in 1996, and author, among other things, of “The Picture that Fooled the World” in which he proved the fraudulent nature of the infamous ITN videotape of the Trnopolje “concentration camp” that started the PR avalanche of equating the Serbs with the Nazis. JAMES HARFF, Director of Ruder Finn Global Public Affairs, who masterminded the Serb-Nazi parallel in the U.S. media in August-September 1992 for his client at the time - the Bosnian government. JACQUES MERLINO, former Associate Director of French TV2, whose book "Les Verites Yougoslaves ne sont pas toutes bonnes e dire”, Albin Michel, 1994, contains the interview with Harff, and is the sole source of the above dirty handiwork. JADRANKA CIGELJ, an operative of Croatian Information Center in 1993, instrumental in generating the “mass rape” myth, who frequently posed under various names as a multiple “rape victim”. CIC was set up with overseas funds of a wealthy and nationalist Croatian Diaspora, infamous for harboring World-war II-era nazi war criminals. The chief purpose of the CIC has been to channel pro-Croat information to Western reporters, governments, and organizations with the aim of shaping public opinion in their respective countries. One of its publications was "Genocide - Ethnic Cleansing in North-Western Bosnia" edited by CIC-director Ante Beljo. The book has been published in English, German and French. In addition to reports of Serb atrocities in the 1991-92 war it provides accounts of Croatian suffering during World War II. Very few Western journalists seem to have been aware of the fact that all the “Foreign Press Centers” in Croatia functioned as branches of CIC that posed as a non-governmental organization, when in fact if was the successor of the Ministry of Information. This public relations machine, by the words of Thomas Deichmann, has been “a highly professional operation and it has played an important role since the beginning of the war in the Media- and Information Center in Zagreb.” A large, English-speaking staff offered help of all kind to visiting Western reporters and to assisted them by arranging interviews. In December 1993 Jadranka Cigelj became the vice-chair of the Croatian branch of the International Society for Human Rights (ISHR), with its main office in Frankfurt Main, Germany. The ISHR predecessor organization had well documented historic links with the Nazi authorities during World War II and later with the CIA and the BND, the German secret service. During the Bosnian war Serbian rape camps became a commonplace notion in mass media promoting the image of Serb soldiers as mass rapists. The total of all documented cases amounts to not more than 50 raped Muslim women in a three-way civil war where there were rape victims on all sides. As a sad footnote to a failed public relation campaign in the mid-90s trumpeting the Serbian “mass rape” of as many as 50,000 Muslim women, only 16 women took the witness stand in the Hague in March 2000, their identities sealed by the court. The “mass rape” trial resulted in meager three convictions for individual rape. The mass rape charge was briefly resurrected in the media during the Kosovo war, then promptly abandoned. According to the reports investigating alleged rapes, - the New York Times had to admit by July 1999, - there had been not a single documented case of actual rape as attested to by a victim herself, despite vigorous soliciting for such, but rather massive amounts of circulating second- and third-hand stories. PETER GALBRAITH, the former U.S. ambassador to Croatia, instrumental in not only arranging for the U.S. military and logistical support in preparation of the Krajina offensive (Gotovina) in 1995, but also in charge of allowing the massive influx of Iranian weapons and foreign mujahedeen to Bosnia via Zagreb, as part of an illegal and clandestine plan by the Clinton administration 1993-1995. ALIJA IZETBEGOVIC, to be questioned on the role of his secret service in staging the “breadline massacre” for PR benefit, and the two subsequent market bombings, each carefully timed as to serve as pretexts to major policy moves by the U.S. and NATO in the war. His knowledge of deliberate sniping of Bosnian commandos on their own civilians for PR benefit. His knowledge of and participation in willful sacrificing of Srebrenica on the eve of the Krajina attack and the joint Muslim-Croatian offensive in August 1995. NASER ORIC, military commander of Srebrenica, mysteriously recalled by Sarajevo along with a dozen of his senior officers in May 1995, in preparation of the above sacrificial PR move in Srebrenica, as to leave the town undefended, after provoking the BSA into an offensive. ABDULLAH BASIC, liaison officer of the 2nd Corps of the Bosnian Army, on the Sarajevo policy of preventing Srebrenica’s population to leave the enclave, in effect from March 1993. CARLA DEL PONTE, who, as a former Swiss prosecutor of Mafia in Switzerland with ties to Germany, Italy and the Balkans, should possess first-hand knowledge of the narcotics-smuggling network of the Albanian mafia, instrumental in financing the armed insurrection in Kosovo in 1998-1999. CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR of CNN, on her practice of deliberate misrepresentations, distortions, exaggerations, inventions, rumors, innuendo, and outright lies throughout her Balkan reporting in the 1990s, thus providing valuable PR ground for anti-Yugoslav western policies via public support her work generated. The list is to be continued. Andre Huzsvai Boston U.S. Friday July 19, 2002 at 1:19 am Brothers & Sisters -- I don't know in history a small nation under the boot that was able to save life and honour simultaneously. Probably Bogdan is right that Serbs have to dance to an imposed tune. The only antidote is to try to create a strong wave of protests similar to the Serbian epics that helped them survive Turkish rule. These modern Serbian epics, would describe exactly what you all say and be spread in every manner, in songs, in jokes, in angry lyrics, in stories. Each Serbian child should drink it with his Mother's milk. This is perhaps a way to save the Serbian soul. Mickiewicz wrote a poem about the Poles who made Poland survive during the time of its political nonexistence by: "In the darkness of night, spread poison with silent speech." A lesson of conspiracy that lasted 200 years. William & Nikole M Canada Friday July 19, 2002 at 4:42 am I found the article which I thought said that of the 2000 or so bodies found in Kosovo 400 Serbs and 300 Albanians have been identified. I was wrong. It says: "...over 400 Serbs and 300 other non-Albanians" and continues: "and does not distinguish between combatants and civilians." The article was written by Scott Taylor in the Halifax Herald. The article and, many other articles that are just as interesting, can be found at http://www.ulaval.ca/iqhei/maintienpaix/revuedelapresse.html . It is a site kept by Université Laval (in Quebec City in Canada), so it offers a comprehensive list of articles in both French and English. The point is that the truth is out there. (Université Laval is no "Mickey Mouse" university, by the way, but a highly respected institution in the "Francophone" world.) What was missing in the prosecution's case? As has been pointed out a few times earlier, where are the 100,000 bodies, for starters? I think the prosecution has wasted its time sketching informal command structures and provoked the emotions by producing harrowing stories. Just where is the evidence that there was a systematic execution campaign? Or if you can't produce this sort of evidence, where is the order that Milosevic gave? In order to get either the superior or the subordinate convicted, there has to be an explicit order (just to continue the superior-subordinate analogy.) A lot of the media fuss has focused on the documents, supposedly found in the Yugoslav archives, that the prosecution might use, because they are so damning to Milosevic. It seems that if the trial is really a continuation of war by different means, then the disinformation campaign hasn't been forgotten either. I don't know what Mr Prosper's reasons were for suggesting that part 2 would be conducted in Serbia. Judging by the list of useful witnesses that Andre has produced, Mr Prosper may have a gut feeling that this trial isn't going the way it should, so Serbia is the place to bury it. But even here, disinformation is part of the game. Just look around. I believe that part of the Bosnia charges have been withdrawn. However, the ICTY website keeps remarkably silent. By way of comparison, Arkan is still indicted according to the website. It has to be borne in mind that he was assassinated on January 15, 2000. The only hint that he might be dead is the decision taken by the tribunal a year later, January 17, 2001. And even then, it only says that it is "satisfied that existing circumstances no longer weigh in favour of non-disclosure of the indictment to the public, and that the interests of justice now weigh in favour of disclosure of the indictment to the public". In other words, now the guy is dead, the "interests of justice" dictate that his indictment should be placed on the website. Maybe the "interests of justice" also dictate that Milosevic has to be charged on as many counts as possible, so they can be displayed publicly. Never mind that the charges have been withdrawn later. It might indeed be better for the prosecution to get Milosevic killed, because then only the charges would be made public, not what happened to the charges later. This is not the place to clear your name, that is for sure. Jari Nousiainen Finland Friday July 19, 2002 at 4:45 am The URL of Scott Taylor's article is http://www.herald.ns.ca/stories/2002/06/24/f127.raw.html . Sorry, I forgot. J N Finland Friday July 19, 2002 at 5:00 am You have all reminded me of good old days when the Serbs were acting like heroes, fighting the giants for the right cause. Only this time it is different in so many ways... First of all, in all of the battles we used to wage in the past (against Turkish empire, Austro-Hungarians, Germans) we had allies. We would never have succeeded in defeating any of these enemies on our own. Also, important thing is timing. We couldn't do anything against the Turks when they were at the peak of their power. It is only when their empire started to fall apart that we've managed to get rid of them. Now we are litteraly left alone in the world. Of course, we have had a verbal support of Russia and China, some sympathy of the Greeks and that's it, none of these nations would lift a finger to help us, they were afraid to lose sympathy of the west. 17 of the world's strongest countries were against us. All world's catholics, protestants and muslims were against us (really a rare case of those religions uniting against a common enemy). Technologically, we had no way to kill a single American while they were capable of completely destroying the entire country (we had no missiles that can reach that high). All of our neighbours were racing each other to offer help to NATO to punish foolish Serbians. I guess, were there a wish from Americans to enter Yugoslavia by infantry, they wouldn't even need to bother to send their own troops, there were so many poor countries who would gladly offer their soldiers for the cause. It is not our life that we've saved, but the future of our children by giving up. Look at Cuba, North Corea, Iraq. That's the price you pay for disobedience. So what if one day they Americans leave them alone? What did they achieve? Would anybody really say 'thank you' to them? How they will feel when they will see all of their neighbours have advanced 100 years in front of them, and they need to beg America to give them credits to be able to survive? Anyway, countries in gheto like that tend to develop such a cruel and corrupt ruling systems that they are more hated than a real enemy. Somebody mentioned Ustase. Good example just how cruel the price was We had to pay for our heroism. When Germans offered just to pass through Yugoslavia in second world war, our king complied, because he understood the consequences. However, our proud people stood up and fought the incredibly stronger Germans, while Croats,Slovenians and Muslems were throwing roses at German tanks. As a result, Germans, who have crushed our regular army in 7 days, have allowed Croats to commence a worst kind of ethnical cleansing that wiped out around 800.000 Serbs in Croatia and Bosnia. They did not just kill them, all of those men,women and children, they had to torture them with any method they could come up with. Each Serb I know have lost someone from his family in that cleansing. OK, now that is the price we've paid. What have we got? An admiration from the West? From our dear allies we've got bombing of Belgrade in 1945, that was actually worse than the previous German ones, that they even didn't ever bother explaining why. We've got communist Croat ruler Tito, that have send 100.000 Serbs to concentration camps just based on political accusations. We had a part of Serbia given to Croatia to confort their nationalism, doesn't matter, right, it's just declarative, we were one country then? We trully believed in the idea of Yugoslavia. We sacrifised a lot to it. We have tried to make our nation look smaller so the rest of the nations in Yugoslavia don't feel endangered with it. We have given authonomy to Vojvodina and Kosovo. We have forgiven Croats and tried to forge brotherhood and unity with them. We have accepted a lot of Albanians to Kosovo, as they were fleeing from their own country. We have given them what they never had in their homeland. We were all of the time sending money to Kosovo trying to raise that part of our country to the level of other parts. How can anyone in their sane mind think that we were the ones to want the Yugoslavia to fall apart after the way we have fought for it? According to West, it seems that simple - it was all Milosevic. He is a super-power human who can fool a whole nation without any particular reason into a self-destruction, ethnical cleansing and confrontation with a whole world without ever even mentioning it in any of his speaches. As long as we stood by him, they had right to punish us. I could go on and on, but I have no time right now. My bottom line is that we might have done good for the mankind in the past by fighting the evil ones, but the mankind betrayed us each time we've done that. So I say - no more irrational heroism. Make your moves wisely. Don't argue with the strong. Be silent. Strenghten your economy. Improve your diplomacy. Make economic ties. Someone asked why generation after generation leaves this land? It's not the war my friend, it's the bad economy and no perspective. You don't see too many people leaving Israel, do you? Anyway, I think the war in Yugoslavia would never happen if there wasn't a severe economic crisis. When people are panicked, they look for a strong leaders and that's where nationalists get their chance. It's easy to see that the wars in the modern world are always waged on the territory of the poorest countries. So I say - you want to stop the suffering of Serbian people? Forget about the SPS, Sloba, Mladic etc. Think about the economy. Once we have the money to buy Stealths and S-300, to pay the global media to spread our propaganda, then and only then we can hope that West will not meddle with out internal affairs. Bogdan Oparnica Belgrade Yugoslavia Friday July 19, 2002 at 5:58 am I have to say in answering Bogdan Oparnica's posting that the first thing the West did against Yugoslavia was to wage economical war, with sanctions and the like. The US Congress passed in November 1990 Foreign Operations Appropiation Law 101-513 ending aid and credit to Yugoslavia wit devastating consequences. Many such other meassures were to follow from the EC, US and UNO. It was the recall of the Yugoslav debt by American banks that precipitated the desintegration of the federation; while Belgrade was asked to repay loans and debt the republics were promised credits! The collapse of the USSR was the signal for the expasionist West to move towards Yugoslavia and Nato's aggression in March 1999 brought the dismissal of B. Yeltsin and the rise of V. Putin to the Kremlin. Present US plans to attack once again Iraq will be Putin's acid test. Gogol Charlemagne Conn. USA Friday July 19, 2002 at 6:58 am It is hard to forget about Slobo and SPS, when the American aid is tied to the "cooperation" with the tribunal! I don't know how much good it would do to protest, because the whole scheme has been cleverly "decentralized", so that nobody has the full control of the situation. The scheme is so cleverly devised that no-one, not even its initiators, can figure it out. Breaking things is easier than putting them back together. Everybody understands the need for economic cooperation, but there are too many players now for any progress to be made soon. There are donors' conferences and so on, which are only bound to muddle the picture even further. The plan has been "multinationalized". Asking one's tormentor for forgiveness is a method used in "re-education", i.e. brainwashing. The plan must have been to give the Yugoslavs some good old "schock therapy" so they would be more open to the Western way of thinking, including the multinationals. Now it is admitted that the result is even more disorder, but those responsible are nowhere to be found. If this were a real trial, at least those accused would have their reputations restored and get their lives back. Jari Nousiainen Finland Friday July 19, 2002 at 7:12 pm This is just in: Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty July 18, 2002 OUSTED YUGOSLAV GENERAL DEFENDS MILOSEVIC... General Nebojsa Pavkovic said on 17 July in Belgrade that former Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic "never ordered anyone to commit crimes in Kosovo," AP reported. Pavkovic, who added that he is willing to go to The Hague to testify in Milosevic's trial, was fired by Yugoslav President Vojislav Kostunica last month. Pavkovic did not deny that war crimes were committed in Kosova [sic] by Serbian forces in 1998-99, but said "no commander ever ordered the killing of civilians or expulsion of [ethnic] Albanians." That contrasts with the testimony the same day from a Yugoslav soldier at The Hague, who said in court that Serbian forces were ordered to kill villagers in Kosova and "cleanse" the province. Pavkovic added that he secretly met with UN war crimes chief prosecutor Carla Del Ponte in April. PB ... FILES LAWSUITS AGAINST KOSTUNICA Pavkovic also said on 17 July that his lawyer has begun filing lawsuits for slander against President Kostunica because the Yugoslav leader and his top aides accused him of corruption, AP reported. Pavkovic said Kostunica's comments the previous day in the daily "Cacanski glas," in which he was quoted as saying that Pavkovic has a "soaring business career" and "tendencies to amass real estate during wartime." Pavkovic challenged Kostunica to provide evidence supporting the claims. "I do not accept these allegations," Pavkovic said. "These are just ordinary lies." PB/DW Andre Huzsvai U.S. Friday July 19, 2002 at 7:35 pm Do you remember Patrick Ball’s testimony at the ICTY in March: no matter it’s in the trial transcripts. Ball claimed that he had proved by mathematical analysis that the Serb Army had murdered “10,356” Kosovo Albanians and, presumably because he was testifying against him, that Milosevic was responsible. It is true that mass graves have been found all over Kosovo but guess what. Surprise, surprise, the bodies being dug out of them are not Kosovo Albanians they are Serbs murdered by the KLA. This trial becomes more farcical by the day. Pathologist and university professor Dr. Slavisa Dobricanin, the director of the Office for Exhumation and Identification of the Coordinating Center for Kosovo and Metohija, has confirmed that a joint team consisting of membersof that organization and UNMIK has completed autopsies at the Center for Identification in Orahovac Following his comments on the recent autopsies on nine Serbs kidnapped, murdered and hidden by the KLA he added that there is a total of 170 graves in Dragodan but that, starting next week, in Orahovac they will be working on the identification of bodies from "well-known locations throughout Kosovo". First on the list is the identification of exhumed bodies from Suva Reka brought there from throughout Kosovo and Metohija. The Serbs claim that these also are the bodies of Serbs kidnapped and then murdered by members of the KLA. ‘Hundreds of Serb bodies from mass graves throughout Kosovo.’ Just pause for a moment to take this all in. After all the proclamations by Blair, his buddies and a compliant Western media of the slaughter of hundreds of thousands of Kosovo Albanians, now revised to ten thousand, it must be a huge shock to discover that it was not the Serb Army that was murdering thousands of Kosovo Albanians but the KLA and the Nato air force that was murdering thousands of Serbs! Where now are the screaming headlines in the Western media? Can anyone hear the previously outspoken Blair or ‘Bomber’ Carey, the Archbishop of Canterbury, banging on about the KLA murderers? Perhaps even Ms Laura Lipsey might like to retract her intemperate tirade upon the Serbs as liars in the light of these huge and hugely disgraceful lies by almost everybody but the Serbs? The moral of this revelation is: beware of a mathematical theory especially when it is all Ball’s. Source: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/decani/message/68220 Peter Taylor Herts/UK Friday July 19, 2002 at 8:06 pm To be fair to Patrick Ball and also to demonstrate the irrelevance of his testimony, he told the court that there were three hypothesies and that the only one which his calculations made probable was: the Albanians had been killed by the Jugoslavs, no by the KLA nor by Nato bombing. March 13-14 was his testimony: HERE There were during the cross-examination some amusing and embarrasing moments for P. Ball. Worth reading stuff. Comparing once again the ICTY with the Nüremberg International Military Tribunal, here is another important difference. There were four judges, France, England, USSR, the USA and a President. To convict a majority of 3-1 was required. A tie 2-2 was broken by the President. Today, we have three judges and no president, only 2-1 is required to convict. So far, I have found judge Kwon of South Korea to be objective enough judging by his questions and comments. Robinson (Jamaica) and May (UK) are ganged together and have shown litle liking for Mr. Milosevic rights. Gogol Charlemagne Conn. USA Friday July 19, 2002 at 11:15 pm RFE reporting on Serbs facing their past. ///Sonja Licht heads the Fund for an Open Society Yugoslavia. She is there to tell the Serbs they are demons.Licht believes a true accounting of the past in Serbia may be decades in the future. But... she said, “There is always a light at the end of the tunnel [in Serbia],and now it is slowly growing brighter.”///This article goes on to say how some Serbs are now facing their past, but at the same time the article criticizes the Serbs for watching the Milosevic trial and seeing only what they want to see, i.e., Milosevic getting the best of the witnesses.// I hope Licht is right, that the future is brighter for the Serbs and that at long last the truth comes out. I am sure the truth is not what Licht wants.///Meantime Carla Del Ponte is back in Belgrade demanding more Serbian war criminals for the Hague.///How many times has she demanded the Muslims or Croats turn over war criminals? I must say that at the time of the Bosnian civil war, I heard many of the USA politicians who were running back and forth to Bosnia, on tax payers dollars, return and to the media express their dislike of ALL SIDES COMMITTING ATROCITIES. Now these same politicians seem to only remember that the Serbs committed the atrocities. //Two representatives are now calling for the independence of Kosovo. Gilman of New York and Lantos of California were the two calling for the independence. They along with Senator Biden, no fan of Serbs, were attending the Albanian American Civic League and Foundation in New York City. Does this give you any clues?///Also, my answer to Belgrade. You are losing friends who stuck by you through all your troubles by turning in your fellow Serbs. Kathryn Love SJC USA Sunday July 21, 2002 at 1:59 am Here is something odd: Just by chance I found something quoted from this forum in soc.culture.quaker and I'm reproducing it here. So I'm posting a post that quotes a post! --I read the following at: http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/issue_milo_discuss.php It praises surrender, and repudiates ideals. I found it strangely moving because for a second I saw the world through very different all be it embittered, eyes. It gives a spin on pacifism that I hadn't thought of before. I can't simply cite it because it is in a very long list of postings. I think it food for thought.. Ian ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Friday July 19, 2002 at 5:00 am You have all reminded me of good old days when the Serbs ........ Nikole J Canada Sunday July 21, 2002 at 3:05 am To Jari and Peter, Your running commentary (together with others)is doing a good job to counter the consistant misrepresentation by the Western press. Keep it up. The lack of any sensible opposition to you speaks volumes! The Western press is running scared on this one judging by what has been available lately ( see latest trash by New York Times saying that Show trials are good). They will feed anything they want to the peasants (sorry about the term but that is what the media think of it's subscribers) There propaganda is not as effective as it was in pre internet days. Julian Rochell Norway Sunday July 21, 2002 at 12:17 pm Nikole J. What is odd about my choosing to share something I read here with a wider audience? Everything posted here is already in the public domain. I cited the source, and explained that it would be difficult to cite where in the source the text I wished to refer to could be found. If there is something odd, it is that I did not cite the author. But I figured that any who wished to know who the author was could find it here, and that the author might well not wish to have his name posted elsewhere. What is equally odd is that I choose to cite it at all, given my reticence to allow the things that obsess me to make me a bore to others. I consider that what we did to Yugoslavia, the greatest wrong Canada and Britain have done to any nation in my lifetime. It made a lie of who were were and what we stood for. And now we betray our principles even more, by making a mockery of justice. What a tangled web we weave, when at first we do deceive. I thought this post an admirable post.. and well worth sharing with Quakers who have a strong opposition to war, and who more than most would grasp that relevance of it. It raised an astonishing number of issues of fundamental relevance to the west, and challenges in a fundamental way our belief in our right to attack other nations at will. Ian Davis Waterloo Ontario, Canada Sunday July 21, 2002 at 1:29 pm Ian -- this is my second attempt at posting a reply to you. I am so sorry that my words offended you. It's a great misunderstanding. I found it odd that Bogdan's post turned up in the Quaker forum only one day after appearing here in Jurist. They turned up in an unrelated search. I found your words so impressive that I wanted to reprint them here. If I'd paid attention I'd have realised you are a regular correspondent here. If you are a Quaker then I'm impressed with their understanding of the issue. Nikole J Canada Sunday July 21, 2002 at 4:56 pm Julian, The New York Times ... or PRAVDA? I sometimes wonder how soon the purge would have come, if Gore and Lieberman had been elected. It may still be possible, the way GW has been transforming into them. Lou Coatney Macomb Illinois USA Monday July 22, 2002 at 12:01 am The quote of the day: "...while Boot's criticism of Colin Powell's opposition to American intervention in Bosnia is forceful, his assertion that 'it took remarkably few sorties by NATO, principally U.S. warplanes - combined with a Croation [sic] ground offensive - for the Serbs to agree to a peace treaty' is misleading. It neglects the atrocities - ethnic cleansing, summary executions, indiscriminate shelling of civilian populations - the the Croation [sic]Army committed against the Krajina Serbs, with the tacit blessing of Washington." Review by Benjamin Schwarz in the July 21, 2002 issue of The New York Times Book Review of "The Savage Wars of Peace. Small Wars and the Rise of American Power", By Max Boot, 428 pp, New York, Basic Books. Andre Huzsvai U.S. Monday July 22, 2002 at 4:10 am The media hasn't been too gentle with the Serbs. Look what Ariel Sharon is doing, and compare it with what Milosevic did (allegedly). This is the comparison many people make to show that some special group controls the media. Yes, I mean the Jews. In fact, the Jews threatened to call off their subscriptions en masseto New York Times, if the newspaper didn't change its critical reporting of the Israeli operations. Some major Chicago newpaper was also threatened with a similar boycott. CNN was threatened with a removal off the air in Israel, if CNN didn't stop its anti-Israel reporting and if Ted Turner didn't stop his anti-Israel comments. I don't know what became of these threats, but they show us two things. First, it shows that nobody is the media's pet. There are enough books on Jewish media control to fill a whole library, but the recent events have shown that any conspiracy theory definitely has its limits Second, it shows that the media thrives on violence, and it is easy to turn the public opinion against the more institutionalized, and hence apparently more systematic, party (which is less likely to engage in random killings than the "freedom fighters" on the opposite side). The Serbs don't have the same demographics as the Jews (at least not in the US), so if the Jews need to make a special effort to persuade the media, what chances do the Serbs have? What chances do the Serbs have when the Jewish opinion has been persuaded against them? That's what makes James Harff's admission so interesting. What may break the tradition media equation is the Internet. James Harff may say that his PR firm is not paid to be moral. We are not paid at all, so at least we have no reason to be immoral. It is easy to idealize the Nuremberg trials, but the fact is that Nuremberg trials had one major problem in common with the ICTY. It broke the nullum crimen, nulla poena rule, which means that it defined the crimes after the fact, more or less in the same way as the ICTY is doing now de facto. So actually the ICTY may have adopted the worst things about the Nuremberg trials. What this boils down to is this: Judge May can keep saying "in cases like this we do this...", but in fact, if it is the Nuremberg trials that he is referring to, he must mean that "in cases like this" you don't need "cases like this". Also, it can be argued, as was argued by the British economist J.M. Keynes at the time, that the Versailles Treaty that was made with Germany after WW I wasn't what a peace treaty should have been like in the first place. J.M. Keynes also said that the doctrine of self-determination was simply a pretext to war. This now applies to the former Yugoslav republics. So after all, the current Balkans debacle is just another version of the age-old maxim divide et impera. The new development is the mockery of justice that the "doctrine" now entails. There is one thing I have wanted to know the whole time but was afraid to ask. Does Tony Blair carry the Koran in public literally? Jari Nousiainen Finland Monday July 22, 2002 at 5:26 am Many of you may have seen these two recent articles by now, or at least know the story, but the truth may not have been told too many times. The first one is about William Walker's Racak testimony: http://www.wsws.org/articles/2002/jul2002/walk-j20_prn.shtml The second is about the Srebrenica massacre, in which Nebojsa Malic has really surpassed himself (this is meant as a compliment): http://www.antiwar.com/malic/m-col.html . J N Finland Monday July 22, 2002 at 6:18 am And then comes that trusted IWPR again! Doesn't the following report strike a chord with the current war on terror, with its "penetration of inner circle" and changing the procedural rules? http://www.iwpr.net/index.pl?archive/tri/tri_274_1_eng.txt . J N Finland Monday July 22, 2002 at 7:37 am Hot from the ICTY: Lilic refuses to testify at Milosevic trial 12:46 THE HAGUE, Monday - Former Yugoslav President Zoran Lilic, who was forcibly brought to the UN war crimes tribunal as a witness, this morning refused to testify against Slobodan Milosevic, demanding Yugoslav President Vojislav Kostunica and the Supreme Defence Council release him from an obligation to protect state secrets. "I am ready to testify before this tribunal should a relevant authority, which means the president, lifts the ban on keeping military secrets," Lilic, who was president from 1993 until 1997, told the court. The Yugoslav government agreed on Thursday to release several former close associates of Milosevic from the obligation to preserve state secrets when called to testify before the tribunal. But Lilic claimed the government had acted beyond its jurisdiction, insisting only the state president and the Supreme Defence Council had the right to lift such an obligation. "Anyone in Yugoslavia can file a complaint against me. I could be accused of revealing state secrets and that is severely punishable," said the former president. Lilic claimed that by refusing his requests, the Yugoslav authorities had made public their opposition to him testifying. The court postponed his testimony until Friday, criticising the prosecution for failing to disclose all the details on Lilic’s obligations in Yugoslavia. The witness was apprehended in Belgrade and forcibly transferred to The Hague some ten days ago, after the UN court issued a subpoena for his testimony. Judge Patrick Robinson said the subpoena had been issued too early. “I rather resent being used in this way,” he told the prosecution. Prosecutor Geoffrey Nice replied that the subpoena had been necessary to ensure Lilic’s appearance in court, claiming the witness was “of great importance.” Nice suggested postponing the court’s scheduled three-week recess, due on July 26, after another two days of testimony were lost last week when doctors warned Milosevic’s blood pressure was too high. (Reuters/B92) Gogol Charlemagne Conn.USA Monday July 22, 2002 at 12:07 pm Doctors warn of strain on Milosevic’s health THE HAGUE, Monday - Doctors at the UN tribunal in The Hague have recommended judges slow the pace of the Milosevic trial due to the strain on the former Yugoslav president’s health, B92 learns today. The trial, which is expected to last two years, has repeatedly been interrupted to allow Slobodan Milosevic to recover from bouts of the flu and, more recently, high blood pressure. The former president, who is conducting his own defence, was given a thorough check-up by tribunal doctors, in the presence of his family doctor from Belgrade. The prosecution had earlier voiced suspicion about Milosevic’s delicate health. (B92) Now, they know. Gogol Charlemagne Conn.USA Monday July 22, 2002 at 3:50 pm JURIST requests that participants in this forum not repost lengthy third-party articles or materials here. Altogether apart from the copyright difficulties that this practice presents, such re-postings make the discussion hard to follow and take up valuable page space. If you'd like to recommend an article or a posting elsewhere, please limit yourself to the URL and a very general description. Thank you. JURIST Moderator Monday July 22, 2002 at 7:33 pm I have seen a report of complaints by UN officials in Kosovo about the tranfer of bodies from Albanian cemeteries into Kosovo. Is it possible that these are the bodies which were found in the Danube? It was a Kosovo Albanian owned truck. Peter Taylor Herts/UK Monday July 22, 2002 at 7:39 pm Blair and the Koran. ‘Google’ “Blair Koran” to see the scores of references to Blair’s love affair with this religious book. I remembered a media report that he was seen reading the Koran during a flight to a winter holiday in Portugal in 1999/2000 and upon another flight on a more recent occasion: the details of which escape me. At least on these two occasions he carried the Koran onto and off the plane. Reports claim that he is the “proud” owner of two copies in different translations. Reports also claim that he has read it through three times: so it is my speculation that he has taken it along on other journeys. :- )Delano reports “Asked about atheist or agnostic children, Mr Blair's teeth flashed, as he started to beat us around the head with his personal copy of the Koran.” http://www.thebrainstrust.co.uk/article.17.2005.html The point is that he boasts about the fact that he reads the Koran. Yet more spin from the cluster bomber who claims to have reversed ethnic cleansing in Kosovo? Another ‘fact’ he loves to boast about especially to Muslim audiences. Of course in one sense he has reversed ethnic cleansing in Kosovo: 200,000 or so of the minorities in Kosovo have been driven out by the KLA and its offspring under Nato control. That is supposing there was any ethnic cleansing in the first place. Peter Taylor Herts/UK Tuesday July 23, 2002 at 3:34 am The freezer truck stories are odd. It is ridiculous to suggest that there were 100,000 or even 10,000 thousand bodies and the Serbs took them by truck to the Danube. In any case, the body count is a mess. According to Scott Taylor's article there were 2,000 bodies, as a result of the bombing campaign. The identified bodies include 700 non-Albanian bodies (Serbs and others). How many Albanians have been identified? Add the "missing" 1,500 Serbs to the 700 non-Albanians, and the total would be 2,200 non-Albanians. By some stretch of imagination, this total might account for the figure of 2,000. But then there would be no Albanian bodies in Kosovo! However, the 1,500 "missing" Serbs may be excluded from the figure of 2,000, becase many Serbs were killed after the bombing, whereas the 2,000 bodies only relate to the bombing. But then again, how would they know? I think the point is that the prosecution should have made crystal clear how many bodies there were and what nationalities or ethnic groups they belonged to. In pre-ICTY days you might have used the expression "beyond reasonable doubt". The fact that the prosecution is still coming up with these freezer trucks suggests that they are in a panic. As it now seems plausible that the number of Albanian bodies found in Kosovo is far less than expected, it is not implausible that the Serb authorities might have taken all the Albanian bodies to Serbia proper as a precaution. This doesn't mean that they were killed by them, in which the crime would be reduced to tampering with the evidence. They may have been killed by the KLA. Besides, we hear of Albanians, but we don't hear of Albanian civilians. The discovery of the freezer trucks and the Albanian bodies along the Danube is explained in a way that suggests that the Albanian bodies were missing in Kosovo, so the authorities started searching for them in Serbia proper. As you know, the reports go something like this: these Albanians are believed to be those missing from Kosovo. If they are believed to be missing from Kosovo, that would suggest that every Albanian found is "missing" from Kosovo, which in turn suggests that there are "too few" Albanian bodies in Kosovo. Anyway, supposing that some dirty tricks were used by the Serbs, the fact that Stojilkovic was mentioned in the same indictment as Milosevic shows the ugly side of this kind of "procedural economy". Now it is Milosevic's fault too, even if it weren't! There are bodies, yes, but the freezer truck stories only show that the prosecution isn't interested in producing the whole story. It condones the crimes if they cannot somehow be attributed to Milosevic. I adhere to the slogan that the prosecution is the one who is obstructing justice. And then to this Lilic scandal. The plan to get him to testify is a travesty when one bears in mind what reservations the US administration had as Richard Holbrooke was asked to testify. Of course Lilic can't reveal state secrets without proper authorization. It is scandalous that this discussion takes place now that he is in The Hague. Even the witnesses in the terrorist cases in the US aren't treated this way, no matter how Nice playes on the analogy. For one thing, Lilic can be punished in Yugoslavia, as he says, and the ICTY won't be there to help him. Remember how easy it is nowadays to sue anyone in the political establishment in Yugoslavia. Even Kostunica is now threatened with a libel suit for something he said in another context. The example of ICTY has eroded the political stability in Yugoslavia. And yet, political stability was what the whole operation was all about. Jari Nousiainen Finland Tuesday July 23, 2002 at 7:36 am Dragan Karleusa repeated under cross examination the bodies found in the Danube were and are not identified. His testimony fell apart under Mr. Milosevic and Mr. Kay cross examination. Gogol Charlemagne Conn. USA Tuesday July 23, 2002 at 8:16 am More on the freezer trucks: Unpleasant witnesses http://www.xs4all.nl/~freeserb/comments/2001/e-btn06062001.html THE MEDIA ON MASS GRAVES IN SERBIA http://archiv.medienhilfe.ch/News/2001/SER-IWPR-HR06.htm Officials Detail Milosevic Attempt http://www.freeserbia.net/Articles/2001/Attempt.html Coming Face to Face with Crime http://www.aimpress.org/dyn/trae/archive/data/200106/10621-001-trae-beo.htm Dead Travel http://www.cdsp.neu.edu/info/students/marko/vreme/vreme101.html Hardoz Nails UK Tuesday July 23, 2002 at 10:46 am Mea culpa, Moderator. Had no time to trim the report. Here’s the new Kosovo item in a nutshell. Courtesy of Rick Rozoff. “The Damned of Kosovo” A film that breaks the silence. Has every potential to further deflate the prosecution's Kosovo case against Milosevic. By Michel Collon and Vanessa Stojilkovic Highlights: ”Chased from her apartment in Pristina, Maria would not have had a life except that she looked Albanian. Her nephew, an interpreter for the UN, was savagely murdered. Silvana's husband was kidnapped, and she hasn't had any news about him for two years. Stanimir's home was burned down. What do they have in common? They are Serbs and live, or rather survive, in Kosovo.” Collon: “An accumulation of suffering that no one could imagine here: bombing attacks, assassinations, expulsions and the destruction of homes, kidnappings and families in anguish, constant threats . . . The situation is overwhelming: A veritable ethnic cleansing that has run off a large part of the non-Albanian population and has terrorized those who've stayed... ”The presence of NATO troops …has not only not stopped the violence, but the film shows several exclusive documents that reveal NATO's complicity with the authors of this violence: the militias of the KLA separatists.” "The film encompasses about twenty interviews that gave the victims a chance to speak out… …It was absolutely necessary to pass on their tragic message to break the media silence that currently surrounds Kosovo.” For info contact michel.collon@skynet.be Spanish version: mespinar@nodo50.org Andre Huzsvai U.S. Tuesday July 23, 2002 at 11:42 am A must read, Confessions of a freezer truck driver (Vreme). The article that broke the story telling the story of Nikola (also K12) and the alledged freezer truck plan. Note that it is witness K12 who refused to testify citing psychological pressure. My gues: K12 and his story were a propaganda stunt gone wrong in the end. To make it appear that the transport of bodies in freezer trucks was common and organized under Milosevic. He did however helped to get Milosevic in the Hague. http://www.worldpress.org/Europe/216.cfm Peter Varavejke Belgium Tuesday July 23, 2002 at 12:42 pm Hocus pocus Thanks to Gogol Charlemange for the reference to the trial transcripts on the evidence of Dr Patrick Ball. When his evidence was presented the only information available was in second-hand media reports. Trial transcripts appear on this website with a delay of several weeks if not months. Ball was engaged by the court to present a scientific case proving that Milosevic had implemented a policy of ethnic cleansing and genocidal killing. Happily for Blair and his buddies such a case if successfully conducted would absolve Nato and the KLA from any responsibility for the catastrophe that has befallen Kosovo since the military intervention of Nato. According to Ball the bulk of the data for his research was presented to him by the Albanian government and the Prosecution. Much of this data is not available for general review. According to the transcripts Ball is a hostile witness being on record as having made comments assuming the guilt of Milosevic. Likewise his finances come from ‘hostile’ sources: So much for the background to this ‘scientific’ research. Ethnic cleansing: In hocus pocus speak Ball’s evidence depends upon ‘regression analysis’. In essence this is a study of the errors between the data presented to him by the Albanian government and the Prosecution: And data generated by his assumption that deliberate attacks by the Yugoslav Army (hereinafter know as the VJ), made in order to expel the Kosovars, caused a massive exodus out of Kosovo. In hocus pocus speak Dr Ball refers to this as ‘analysis of residuals’. Every self-respecting book on statistics warns us that regression analysis cannot prove cause and effect. But where Ball is distinctly dishonest and unscientific is in not explaining that his conclusions apply equally well to the equally valid assumption that the KLA advised, even coerced, the evacuation of Kosovars whenever and wherever the VJ attacked its positions; often with a good measure of local Nato bombing for encouragement. Some Kosovars have confirmed this latter assumption. Statistics can never prove anything. What statistics can say is: “If the KLA ‘evacuated’ the Kosovars whenever and wherever it was attacked by the VJ in order to clear the area for Nato bombing then the data given agrees with this assumption within measured levels of probability. But Ball did not make this claim. What is the more likely: That the Serbs would risk the world’s condemnation by a deliberate act of massive ethic cleansing inevitably leading to war crimes charges: Or that the KLA would clear the ground for Nato air attacks and embarrass the Serbs in the process? The ‘Operation Horseshoe’ scam supports the latter case. Genocidal killings. Garbage in garbage out: Ball may have fed tons of data provided by the Prosecution into his computer programs but this does not warrant his conclusion that the VJ murdered 10,356 Kosovars. The transcripts reveal that only 1,912 bodies have been identified as ethnic Albanian. They have been identified simply by name. Who named them and how does the name identify them as ethnic Albanian? Apart from the miss-identified among these victims there are presumably combatants, those murdered by the KLA, those killed by Nato bombs and those killed in accidents - the vast majority of coalition casualties in Afghanistan were accidental. Ignoring these qualifications - that probably at least half of these 1,912 were not killed by the VJ - this still leaves a shortfall of 8500 missing or unidentified Kosovar bodies according to Ball’s statistical analysis. Embarrassing: when hundreds of Serbs, abducted and murdered by the KLA, are being dug up all over Kosovo. What is needed are facts - the truth: What is the truth for example about Kosvar bodies found in Serbia: Is this another Nato scam or a Serb cover up? While Nato bribes the Serbian government with billions of dollars, while the Nato court presents bogus and biased testimony, while the Nato court shows extreme bias in not indicting a single war criminal from among the KLA leadership, we will never know the truth. One of the many anecdotes ascribed to Winston Churchill, Britain’s wartime leader - not to be confused with Tony Blair, is that he wrote “Round objects” upon a report presented to him. When the document was returned the Cabinet Secretary rang Churchill and asked “Who is this Round and what is it he objects to?” I hope that Judge May has likewise written “Round objects” on Ball’s report: but I fear he has not. Peter Taylor Herts/UK Tuesday July 23, 2002 at 12:57 pm Peter If Dragan Karleusa, a police officer received death threats because of his involvement in the case, one has to wonder if the "psychological pressure" Nikola (K12) refers to was of the home grown Serbian variety. This is a man who's ID had been revealed prior to his testimony in the Serb media. I quote from the article you referred to: "Nikola told his story and showed his photographs, but kept them tightly in his grip; his interlocutors asked for a few days in order to verify the authenticity of the photographs before they could give guarantees of Nikola's security and move him from Croatia into some third country. Nikola asked that they first get him and his wife out of Croatia before he would give all the details of his story, and share all the pictures he had taken. Though it took the diplomats some time accept Nikola's conditions, in the end the persuasive power of the photographs won them over. Quietly and discretely, Nikola and his wife were moved into an EU country where they live under the protection of a very efficient secret service." This is a man scared for his and his wife's life. Hardoz Nails UK Tuesday July 23, 2002 at 1:48 pm To Hardoz: I did not know that K12 his name was leaked, do you have references to that. On the psychological pressure: this is what witness K12 said in court: A. I did do my military service, and I think I said that yesterday. 2 Please tell him, tell the Judge that I have had enough of this 3 psychological processing for two days now, and I've been confused even 4 more and more. I cannot testify on anyone's behalf today, and leave me 5 alone. I'll go crazy this way. And -- Nevertheless, if tens of trucks crossed the border with bodies the prosecution should be able to find other leads, but thats apperently not the case. This fact and the tone of the Vreme articles did me conclude that this was a psy op operation of a very effective secret service. Peter Varavejke Belgium Tuesday July 23, 2002 at 1:52 pm Peter If Dragan Karleusa, a police officer received death threats because of his involvement in the case, one has to wonder if the "psychological pressure" Nikola (K12) refers to was of the home grown Serbian variety. This is a man who's ID had been revealed prior to his testimony in the Serb media. I quote from the article you referred to: "Nikola told his story and showed his photographs, but kept them tightly in his grip; his interlocutors asked for a few days in order to verify the authenticity of the photographs before they could give guarantees of Nikola's security and move him from Croatia into some third country. Nikola asked that they first get him and his wife out of Croatia before he would give all the details of his story, and share all the pictures he had taken. Though it took the diplomats some time accept Nikola's conditions, in the end the persuasive power of the photographs won them over. Quietly and discretely, Nikola and his wife were moved into an EU country where they live under the protection of a very efficient secret service." This is a man scared for his and his wife's life. Hardoz Nails UK Tuesday July 23, 2002 at 2:25 pm Peter I can't find the original article but have a reference to it: Pressed by judges on why he could not testify, K12 said it could "jeopardize other people." Judges asked to look at a magazine that had apparently been mentioned in closed session. Further details of K12's identity were not clear. But a story last year in the Belgrade weekly Vreme quoted a Serbian truck driver who said he was drafted in February 1999 to drive a sealed refrigerator truck back and forth from Serbia to Kosovo. The story was published in June 2001, just after Serb police discovered mass grave sites near Belgrade and said they were believed to contain bodies of dead Kosovo Albanians. After driving a dozen such lorries, the driver known in Vreme under the false name "Nikola" said he had unsealed the truck to find corpses, mainly of civilians, piled up inside. http://amsterdam.nettime.org/Lists-Archives/nettime-l-0206/msg00022.html K12 also claims, through his lawyer that he was under pressure from his brother: Attorney of the witness K12, Rebecca Helmskerk, said the defense had filed a complaint to the way the case was processed. She said she had a “long and serious talk with her client, who still has problems with his brother”, and elaborated later at the closed session. http://www.freeserbia.com/bnews/bnews.php?language=english Hardoz Nails UK Tuesday July 23, 2002 at 4:26 pm Israel fired a missile into an apartment building in Gaza. Among the dead, nine (9) children. The Whitehouse disapproves so says the media. Disapproves? That is all?///// What would have happened if this had been done by the Serbs in Bosnia or in Kosovo? Remember the bread line massacre that was set up to get the Serbs bombed?My God, if the Serbs had done this, they would have been blasted to pieces the following day.// We all know the outcome of this trial. Just observe what is happening in the middle east. CNN, and most of the media very seldom mention what is happening there. The same Jews who wrote one article following the next chastising Serbs are very silent about their own. Kathryn Love SJC USA Tuesday July 23, 2002 at 4:42 pm This is important. let's get our facts straight. The truck which was found in the Danube was Kosovo Albanian owned. Is it being claimed that "Nickola" was driving a stolen truck back and forth from Kosovo into Serbia: Or is this a different truck. Is it being claimed that there was a fleet of such trucks. Eight thousand five hundred bodies would require some 1000 two way trips during a heavy Nato aerial bombardment. Or is this just another Trepca mine smoke screen??? Peter Taylor Herts/UK Tuesday July 23, 2002 at 5:10 pm The "refrigerator truck" case was put in place to show Serbian public opinion that the ICTY had a case against Mr. Milosevic. It was all designed by the new clique in Belgrade to get public support to abduct him on St. Vitus Day of last year to the ICTY. Instead of letting the Serbian justice investigate the inccident as it started, the whole thing was taken and run by the "working group" with witness Dragan Karleusa in charge. He tried today to walk the thin line without telling as it was, avoiding having the fundamental question answered: why was his function necessary, what was his role on the whole affair. He served well Mr. Milosevic during cros-examination by not been able to substantiate any of the prosecution's claims, he himself having nothing to claim or to add except that there are no conclusions from the whole "investigation". As pointed out by Jari Nousiainen, the prosecutors are desperate. Judge Robinson(COLONIAL) told the prosecutor toady without any comments: "This is your 100 witness" Gogol Charlemagne Conn. USA Tuesday July 23, 2002 at 5:23 pm Hardoz, dont you psy ops me :)! In my first post i write: 'A must read, Confessions of a freezer truck driver (Vreme). The article that broke the story telling the story of Nikola' (it must be clear that Nicola is an alias) and i provide a link to this article. My claim was that is was a propaganda piece, to influence Serb public opinion and to expedite the transfer of Milosevics to then Hague. Now you bring up the same article to counter that claim. Ill repost the link because your's didnt work (both of them): http://www.worldpress.org/Europe/216.cfm Peter Varavejke Belgium Tuesday July 23, 2002 at 5:28 pm Peter Taylor... I think you will find the truck in the Danube had Kosovo plates, that does not mean it was Albanian owned. Nowhere does "Nickola" say this was his truck. "Timocka Krimi Revija" also carried a report that it had interviewed a retired police officer who claimed to have transported 1000 bodies. I'm not too sure what your 8500 bodies refers to but; we have potentially 3 trucks(min) capable of transporting 8500 bodies in 36 days, assuming 80 bodies per trip. The time frame of this clean-up operation has been quoted at 3 months. Part-time work even in time of war IMHO. Hardoz Nails UK Tuesday July 23, 2002 at 5:37 pm The freezer truck story (if it's indeed the SAME truck)defies common sense and presents a logistical nightmare from the point of view of those now charged with the deaths of Albanians involved - the Serbian police. Why in the world would they dump the truck in the Danube - a very inconvenient and highly visible spot, to be sure - if they knew that sooner or later they would have to extract and relocate the bodies, when from a purely operational standpoint this scenario would mean inviting maximum publicity and making the "coverup" virtually impossible? As though the Serbian police made an extra effort to incriminate themselves - by preparing a present for Carla down the road. Sure there could have been quiter and less clumsy ways to dispose of the Albanian bodies. This is assuming that the Serbian police killed them, which is increasingly in doubt. The official reports refer to the victims having been killed "with blunt and sharp objects" (??!!)Since when would Serbian police, armed to teeth, use "sharp and blunt objects" to kill dozens of Albanians "dressed in traditional Albanian garb" (as if traveling to a folk festival)? Someone obviously tried to make certain that the bodies would be identified unmistakably as Albanians, even after decomposing. Nota bene, the logic of hiring K-12, an outsider by the non-driving police, who later could conveniently implicate them when the time is ripe still does not hold. Was there a fleet of freezer trucks? In that case where are the other drivers - outsiders, no doubt, since Serbian police don't know how to drive. Or did K-12 drive the rest of the trucks himself simultaneously? If it was such a massive undertaking, where are the witnesses? Or could it be the case that a single story of a truck dumpedby human traffickers and containing bodies of Albanians killed by methods not resembling the modus operandi of the Serbian police was simply used to create a myth paving the way to Milosevic's extradition? Did Carla keep the truck story on the backburner, just in case Lilic and Markovic won't rap? Andre Huzsvai U.S. Tuesday July 23, 2002 at 5:46 pm Peter Taylor... I think you will find the truck in the Danube had Kosovo plates, that does not mean it was Albanian owned. Nowhere does "Nickola" say this was his truck. "Timocka Krimi Revija" also carried a report that it had interviewed a retired police officer who claimed to have transported 1000 bodies. I'm not too sure what your 8500 bodies refers to but; we have potentially 3 trucks(min) capable of transporting 8500 bodies in 36 days, assuming 80 bodies per trip. The time frame of this clean-up operation has been quoted at 3 months. Part-time work even in time of war IMHO. Hardoz Nails UK Tuesday July 23, 2002 at 6:07 pm Peter... Sorry but this link works in my browser: http://amsterdam.nettime.org/Lists-Archives/nettime-l-0206/msg00022.html my quoted text was from an article posted on June 3, 2002.... The other article was posted on freeserbia.com on 06/24/2002 18:03 GMT+2 , if you have the time please check the archive... The text I quoted was from the first URL above and the source was quoted as Reuters... Vreme only publish in Serbian, so we can not be sure what the original content was, unless you have access to a translator, I'd like to see just how the original lines up against the English translation. Here's the URL to the original F.Y.I.. http://www.vreme.com/cms/view.php?print=yes&id=235705235705 ...Regards Hardoz Nails UK Tuesday July 23, 2002 at 6:16 pm Peter... Please remove 235705 from the end of the last url...sorry...regards Hardoz Nails UK Tuesday July 23, 2002 at 6:51 pm Hardoz, Nevermind Peter Varavejke Belgium Tuesday July 23, 2002 at 6:52 pm "'Timocka Krimi Revija' also carried a report that it had interviewed a retired police officer who claimed to have transported 1000 bodies." A retired police officer willing to testify about 1,000 bodies he transported(Albanians, I presume)would be a far more impressive witness than anyone involved in the refrigeration affair thus far. Well, WHERE IS HE? Someone ought to alert Carla - maybe she still has a chance. Andre Huzsvai U.S. Tuesday July 23, 2002 at 6:54 pm To Mr Nails. First a correction for my error in arithmetic: It would require not 1000 two way trips to remove Patrick Ball’s missing 8500 Kosovo Albanians but only 100 or so using refrigerated trucks like that in the Danube. The 8500 bodies comes from Patrick Ball’s evidence to the court that 10,356 Kosovo Albanians had been killed by the VJ but only 1,912 bodies had been identified. The truck in the Danube was Kosovo Albanian owned. It was owned by an abattoir that claimed it had been stolen from them. If the time frame for the clean up operation was three months then it could not have taken place during Nato’s 78 day aerial bombardment? Your first URL adds nothing to the discussion about trucked bodies as far as I could see. Your second URL states nothing about trucked bodies at all. However it does report a Ms Selami swearing blind that she had seen a refugee convoy bombed by the Serbs killing 80 people. In fact the court agreed that Nato had admitted responsibility for the bombing: although she continued to claim it had been done by the Serbs. Such is the quality of the prosecution witnesses presented by the ICTY. To all and sundry: there must be someone who can find out what is going on. Where are all those prize winning investigative journalists: Just what is the truth of this body trucking matter? Peter Taylor Herts/UK Wednesday July 24, 2002 at 4:49 am Robin Cook stated publicly during the bombing that the Serb soldiers stripped Albanian men naked and made them lie in front of their canons as they were shelling the Albanian civilians. We know what happened to the story that Albanians were incinerated in Trepca. Taking into account a track record like this, should we believe the freezer truck story? Besides, if the Racak massacre was watertight, why would the prosecution spoil its case by a story it has even fewer chances of proving? This is 86 bodies we are talking about. All indications are that the prosecutors are just dying to attribute them to the Milosevic/Stojilkovic team. I didn't know that almost 2,000 bodies were identified as Albanians. It does, however, remind of an equation Jared Israel once laid bare: 2,000 bodies have been found in Kosovo, the KLA estimates its losses at 2,000. This would at least account for the rapid identification of the bodies. As Scott Taylor pointed out, no distinction has been made between combatants and non-combatants in accounting for the 2,000 bodies. Add to this the 700 non-Albanians, which are quite likely civilians, because the Serb forces kept their own tally. The total would then be 2,700. Add to this the 1,500 missing Serbs, and the total would be 4,200. All these three figures(2,000/2,700/4,200) have been flashed in public. The biggest headache for the prosecution is that the first figure is the same as the KLA-estimated losses. I say it once again: this is the figure that doesn't differentiate between combatants and non-combatants, and now we know why. That is why the prosecution is desperate to claim the 86 Albanian on the Danube. And this reminds me of Milosevic's words at the beginning of the trial: "You have nothing!" This sums up the trial so far. I think Mr Ball bore testimony to the flimsiness of the prosecution's case, nothing else. And as Nebojsa Malic pointed out in his latest column, the Krstic case was based on pure conjecture concerning the Srebrenica massacre. In criminal law, the sentence cannot be based on conjecture. If I didn't already understand that "in cases like this" a lot depends on the "methodology", I would also raise some doubts as to the 400 bodies that have been identified in the Podrinje region (according to Malic). A couple of years ago the figure was 60-70. Probably the figure varies according to the identity and nationality of the victims, just as it seems to do in Kosovo. Jari Nousiainen Finland Wednesday July 24, 2002 at 5:03 am By the way, the psychological pressure applied to Nikola by Serbia is a red herring. Lilic is afraid that he will be prosecuted in Serbia after his testimony for revealing state secrets. Nikola has all the more reason to be afraid, especially if he is not telling the truth. Besides, if he is not telling the truth, it should be the tribunal's business to punish him, which it probably won't, considering that Nikola seems to have been promised a better life in the West. J N Finland Wednesday July 24, 2002 at 7:38 am JN...Why is "the psychological pressure applied to Nikola by Serbia is a red herring"? Hardoz Nails UK Wednesday July 24, 2002 at 8:39 am Peter Taylor...The Serb media seems reluctant to dig too deep: http://archiv.medienhilfe.ch/News/2001/SER-IWPR-HR06.htm The question is why? Hardoz Nails UK Wednesday July 24, 2002 at 8:51 am Peter Taylor... The clean-up possibly started before Nato's 78 day bombbardment. One witness states he saw the truck sink on the night of March 20th and 21st 1999. http://www.freeserbia.com/e-sadrzaj/komentar/2001/e-komentar06062001-2.html Hardoz Nails UK Wednesday July 24, 2002 at 10:04 am Hardoz from youre article it looks like the serb media went to great lenghts to bring the story. The whole month of june 2001 was peppered with freezer truck stories and mass graves in Serbia. Read the beginning your free serbia article: "One can't help wondering why the case "Depth 2" was opened just at the time DOS was battling the Socialist People's Party of Montenegro over the Law on cooperation with the Hague tribunal. It might be a sign of pressure on the coalition partner, but also a sign of the upcoming extradition of Milosevic to the Hague. "You have to see the Nikola (K12) story in that light. Did you notice the tone of the Vreme article; Nikola is for example speaking of concentration camp east of Pristina. First time I hear about that and im following the trial for a while now. Here is another one of K12 his quotes: "It was clear to me where the corpses came from, but I did not understand where they ended up once I delivered the freezer truck in Bor. I assumed that they were burned in the copper melting furnaces." Smells like Trepka to me! K12 or Nikolas testimony is only s story, to make it aappear that the transport of bodies was commonplace during the war. The prosecution can't make it hard in court. Even the one freezer truck that was found is shrouded in mistery. Were are the bodies, the other people who helped trasported them? The bodies were reportedly buried at Batajnica, but these are still not identified. There are many other question: the hole in the truck for example; did people tried to get out of it? The alledged victims were struck with blunt objects; whats with that? Another interesting point: the police officer who testified yesterday and today on the discovery of the truck said that none of the bodies had previously been buried! Peter Varavejke Belgium Wednesday July 24, 2002 at 12:00 pm Peter...I take your points re the timing but when during the period 1999-2001 would it seem convenient to publish the descovory of the bodies? As for Trepica, how are we to know bodies were not transported from there to Serbia? It would explain the stories that Albanians were taken there for disposal. As for the lack of those involved comming forward to give evidence of their involvement, why would they? Whats the significance of the bodies not previously being burried, had the truck been sunk in May or June 1999 I could see your point but it was not, it was much earlier when aledged small scale murders were happening, no need to bury if you can clean as you go maybe? Hardoz Nails UK Wednesday July 24, 2002 at 12:50 pm Mr. Nice looked very nervous today. link: "U.N. prosecutors questioned the former head of the Yugoslav security services - one of Slobodan Milosevic's closest aides - but failed Wednesday to draw a direct link with the former president in the wartime chain of command." Gogol Charlemagne Conn. USA Wednesday July 24, 2002 at 12:52 pm I have below translated a portion of the Vreme `article that Hardoz posted the link for: to start with the article describes the scenery of the Gorge and how there is a place labelled Smugglers Alley because it is used by petrol smugglers and how lucrative the business is, since the sanctions were imposed on Yugoslavia. Etc.. Here is the paragraph I translated: ("Pomislio sam da je policija postavila zasedu svercerima, te sam odmah pogledao i na rumunsku stranu ne bih li ugledao tako?e neka svetla ili signale, sto bi sigurno znacilo da je u toku zajednicka akcija nase policije i rumunske vojske organizovane radi suzbijanja sverca goriva", kaze Branislav Petrovic´. "Srec´om, na rumunskoj strani bilo je mracno. Ugasio sam motor i posmatrao sta se doga?a na magistrali. Dva manja vozila, dzip i cini mi se drugo, vec´e putnicko, stajala su na magistrali, a bela velika hladnjaca okretala se polako spustajuc´i se pomenutim putem prema Dunavu. Bila je tiha noc´, cuo sam neke ljude da govore meni nepoznatim jezikom i video da se hladnjaca ubrzano krec´e prema zavrsetku puta, odnosno obali visokoj oko metar iznad vode. Kad se survala u Dunav, tako je grunulo da je ceo ?erdap odjeknuo. Hladnjaca je polako tonula i posle nekoliko minuta nestala u dubini. Dzip i ono drugo vozilo zurno su odjurili prema Donjem Milanovcu. Neko je odlicno znao ovaj teren, odnosno mesto gde je valja potopiti da zauvek nestane. Kad se sve umirilo, pohitao sam u Tekiju i nastojao da sve zaboravim, pretpostavljajuc´i da se dogodilo nesto o cemu je bolje c´utati. Da sam otisao u policiju i prijavio, sigurno bi me pitali: A sta c´es ti noc´u na vodi? Svercujes, a! Mozda bih i zatvor zaglavio. Zato sam c´utao i nikom nista nisam govorio...") And here is my translation: “I thought that police was looking for smugglers, so I automatically looked over to the ~Rumanian side to see if there are any light or signals which would for sure indicate a joint action of our police and Rumanian army organized to prevent the smuggling of petrol”, said Branislav Petrovic. “Luckily the Rumanian side was in darkness. I switched the motor off and watched what is happening on the motorway. (He uses a word magistrala, which in Yugoslav terms means a major road, but is often made of one track each way NM). Two smaller vehicles, a jeep and I think the other bigger one was a passenger (saloon) car were stopped on the magistrala whereas a white big freezer truck was turning slowly while descending down the afore mentioned track (he uses a word ‘put’ which literally means road NM.) towards Danube. The night was quite, I heard some people speaking in to me unfamiliar (actually nepoznat - unknown NM.) language and saw that the truck has speeded up towards the end of the road, the river edge that is about meter above the water level. When it toppled into Danube, it made such a loud noise that it echoed throughout Djerdap. The freezer truck sunk slowly and within a few minutes disappeared into the river. Jeep and the other vehicle hurriedly speeded (sorry, folks, that is how Serbs speak!) towards Doji Milanovac. Someone new this area, or rather where it (freezer truck) could be sunk for ever. When everything went quite, a went (Now here he uses Croatian word for going/have gone/went which is ‘pohitati’ or ‘pohitao sam’ - I went. Serbian wording would be ‘otisao sam’. This may or may not mean anything.NM ) to Tekij and tried to forget all of it guessing that something happened there `about which is best to keep quite. If I went to the police and reported, they would most definitely ask me: And what were you doing on the water in the night? Smuggling, eh? I could have even ended up in prison. That is why I said nothing, to no one…” If I have time I will translate some more. Neka Mira London UK Wednesday July 24, 2002 at 1:06 pm RE: Trepca one more time: It is a matter of record that On October 12, 1999 Kelly Moore, a spokeswoman for the Hague war crimes tribunal had to admit that the investigators had found “absolutely nothing” at Trepca. Rather than 1,000 bodies down the mine shafts, there were none at all; and the vats had never been used to dispose of human remains. Shortly afterward, writes Gwyn, the tribunal reported on its work at the most infamous of all the mass graves of ethnic Albanians, at Ljubenic near the town of Pec. NATO officials had claimed that 350 victims had been hastily buried there by the retreating Serbs; five bodies were actually found, As Gwyn pointed out: So far, not one mass grave has been found in Kosovo, despite active search by forensic teams, including experts from the FBI and the RCMP. Andre Huzsvai U.S. Wednesday July 24, 2002 at 1:21 pm RE: the Vreme account. Branislav Petrovic was quoted referring to the language o spoken by the mysterious people dumping the truck in question as "unfamiliar" or "unknown", i.e. NOT Serbo-Croatian. Any guesses? P.S. the electronic submission format is screwed-up. Andre Huzsvai U.S. Wednesday July 24, 2002 at 3:45 pm Neka...Thanks for taking the time to translate...this is something I have not seen in English..interesting thanks. Hardoz Nails UK Wednesday July 24, 2002 at 3:50 pm Andre...language could be from any of the foreign mercenaries reported to be operating in Kosovo...just a thought. Hardoz Nails UK Thursday July 25, 2002 at 12:17 am Mercenaries in Kosavo? Hardoz, the lalest is binLaden is alive and well in Pristina, under NATO protection, for fear the AL Quida conection to wars in the Balkans will be connected to the CIA. Pertti Lindroos Quesnel B.C. Canada Thursday July 25, 2002 at 12:45 am A must read: The Saturday, July 19, 2002 issue of the New York Times (Arts and Ideas section): The Show Trial: A Larger Justice? - Some Legal Theorists Are Arguing That a War Crimes Tribunal Like That Trying Slobodan Slobodan Milosevic SHOULD be a Show., By Daphne Eviatar. I don't want to repost the whole number here, causing a new run-in with our moderator, and thus far I have url for it. It's available from the NYT archive for a fee, and boy, is it worth a few bucks!The item is both fascinating in its insolence and stomach-turning at the same time. Highlights: ".. a small but growing number of legal theorists are making the unsettling argument that a 'show trial' is precisely what a war crimes proceeding should be. An effective war crimes trial, they argue, should be a performance that's carefully orchestrated to teach history to a world audience." In his new book, 'The Memory of Judgment: Making Law and History in the TRials of the Holocaust,' Lawrence Douglas, associate professor in the department of law, jurisprudence and social thought at Amherst College [argues] that a post-genocide trial shouldn't be just about applying legal rules to the narrow facts of one individual case ... it should aim more broadly, offering a stage for survivor testimony and creation of an official historical record.... Mr. Douglas admits that there are risks, including sacrificing the truth and the defendant's rights. But trials always involve risk, he said, adding that even a flawed trial where some facts get skewed can bring out a LARGER TRUTH [emphasis mine - A.H.]..It's a bit like a television mini-series, Mr. Douglas explains. The picture of history that's going to come out isn't nuanced, but that's not necesserily bad.' A trial can be staged with didactic purposes without degenerating into a political farce, he says, so long as the judge-director makes good use of legal procedure." "Mark Osiel, a professor at Iowa Law School and author of 'Mass Atrocity, Collective Memory and the Law,' envisions trials in the aftermath of large-scale brutality as a 'transformative opportunity in the lives of individuals and societies.'" To Mr. Osiel, a trial is like a theater. Lawyers and judges should thus heed the 'poetics' of 'legal storytelling.' The judge should use the law 'to recast the courtroom drama in terms of the 'theater of ideas' where large questions of collective memory and even national identity are engaged.'... to maximize their pedagogic impact, such trials should be unabashedly designed as monumental spectacles.", etc. I stop here before throwing up. My first reaction was to cry out loud: "Comrade Vyshinskiy, come back! All is forgiven!", but a more sober review yielded the following observation: That this is a show trial, we knew all along. What's really fascinating is that some in the legal profession are warming up to the idea of characterizing it as such, unavoidable as it is ONLY NOW, in lieu of the prosecution's failure to prove its monumental case. Slipping back to theater lingo apperas to be a clever marketing ploy aiming at making the "show" essence of the ongoing proceedings both legitimate and more palatable for the general public, rewriting the rules one more time. Would love to hear Marjorie Cohn's reaction on the matter. Andre Huzsvai U.S. Thursday July 25, 2002 at 12:57 am Oops! That was Saturday, July 20, 2002 NYT. Mea Culpa. Andre Huzsvai U.S. Thursday July 25, 2002 at 1:31 am Ian Davis. As a Canadian I feel the same shame. The use of the US air power on a state in conflict to asseret it"s will made me wish we had Trudeau back. He would not have been a party to that illegal act. P ertti Lindroos Lindroos Canada Thursday July 25, 2002 at 3:55 am It is the fashion in legal egg-head circles to apply the hyper-intellectual literary theories to law, so I am not a bit surprised that the trial is now called theater. Not a bit. One law professor is of the opinion that law doesn't involve a quest for truth, rather, he qualifies his "methodology" as a quest for style. Those who are interested in the truth are called "hobbyists", as I was. By now, the very word "methodology" should be enough to make us puke. This is just a Greek word for what was called in the zmag article provided by D.S. to Stalin's show trials. Anyone for Glasnost in America? Anyone have an answer to the perennial question: why do "they" hate us? I can't believe that we are having this discussion on freezer trucks. Earlier I said it may seem ridiculous to suggest that the Albanian bodies in Kosovo are far fewer than expected. Now who is ridiculous? Of course the bodies found in the Danube have to be accounted for. But maybe they were dumped there for that very purpose. As the body count in Kosovo failed to yield the desired number of bodies, the problem had to be fixed, of course. The KLA may have become aware very soon that its smear campaign against the Serbs was failing, because those damned Serbs just wouldn't kill enough civilians! So supposing that a truck could be driven from Kosovo to the Danube, the truck journeys could have been done even during the bombing, or at least after the bombing. Remember who the Russian tanks could drive from Bosnia to Kosovo unhindered. But it could have been done later, as the fact that freezer trucks were used suggests. The fact that freezer trucks were used at least suggests that the bodies were meant to be identified. There are enough indications that they were deliberately meant to be identified as Albanians. The fact that they were left along an international waterway points to the same conclusion. Even the Trepca myth was better. If you want to dispose of the bodies, why not incinerate them instead of taking them across the country where they will certainly be found? At least they should have been mutilated to slow down the identification. If the disposal was not done in Trepca, it could have been done anyplace in Serbia. Don't they have crematoria for that purpose? Why does everything have to be done in their famous industrial plants? The bad thing about the industrial plants is that they were destroyed in the bombing. So the plants are not the place to locate the incineration story. But of course the Serbs are so clever that they knew the plants would be bombed so they disposed of the bodies there! And the fact that nothing can be proven, proves the devilishness of the Serb plan. But why is this so ridiculous? If the 86 are someday identified, it will be too little too late (to use a wonderful Americanism). You cannot extrapolate 86 bodies to account for 10,000 bodies, even if they were Albanians. As far as I know, the bodies have undergone no serious forensic research, which is an absolute must before they could even be admitted as evidence. (Are they evidence in this trial?) And to repeat that same old question: what has this got to do with Milosevic? Of course it is now easy to say that Stojilkovic organized the whole campaign, because he isn't here to defend himself. It is the tribunal's practice to let people die as charged (I wonder if the indictments can still be "amended" after the person's death.) But of course, maybe he killed himself because of a bad conscience. Funny that he didn't say so in his suicide note. And because Stojilkovic is gone, Milosevic will carry the blame, because they were charged in the same indictment. Why is psychological pressure applied by Serbs a red herring? Because this "psychological pressure" could be a result of his lying rather than of his telling the truth. Jari Nousiainen Finland Thursday July 25, 2002 at 4:27 am What bothers me the most at this stage, when we know the prosecutor has not been able to present any credible evidence to support her case, after more than 100 witnesses, is why does the trial chamber continues to go along? Further the western media continues to act as if the trial was a forgone conclusion in finding Mr. Milosevic guilty, despite the fact the trial is not covered by any half decent newspaper. It is time for the concerned proffesionals, academics, orgnizations, etc. to begin expressing the outrage this mockery of a trial represents for the cause of justice. Gogol Charlemagne Conn. USA Thursday July 25, 2002 at 4:54 am "Why does it go along?" A very good question. Why doesn't the prosecution stick to one definite charge it has some chance of proving? The original Kosovo indictment was far superior, from a technical point of view, to the subsequent fumbling that we have seen under Del Ponte, because it contained only a few charges. As Richard Holbrooke said, any charge is enough to lock him up for life. It should be obvious at this point that the prosecution will not settle for locking Milosevic up for life. The purpose is to exculpate Nato. So, everything that might have gone wrong now has to be attributed to Milosevic. That is why there must be a charge for every stage of the Balkan wars, from Croatia to Kosovo. We may not be able to change script of this play. But at least we can refuse to swallow the story and treat it just the way it was meant to be treated: as fiction. Jari Nousiainen Finland Thursday July 25, 2002 at 5:27 am Just before the Domovina.net audio and video stream from the ICTY was interrupted this morning, judge May in pre-trial hearing for Bosnia, was telling Mr. Nice that as requested by the prosecutor the next phase of the trial will last another 2 and half years from now! Judge May wants to restrict the numbers of witnesses and bring the volume of municipalities covered for Bosnia to a "manageable" level. He is also ready to extent the Kosovo case prosecution's dead line beyond April 10 since "new develpments" have taken place, presumably Mr. Milosevic sick days. Meanwhile the last few witnesses were and are brought to the trial under subpoena. I am glad Finland is not a NATO member! Gogol Charlemagne Conn. USA Thursday July 25, 2002 at 6:24 am Come to think of it...What happens to the joint Nato operations in the future, now that the US is not party to the ICC Statute and other major Nato partners are? The US might commit acts that could be regarded as war crimes (for political reasons or not). The Rome Statute of the ICC still ascribes individual criminal responsibility to a person who "for the purpose of facilitating the commission of such a crime, aids, abets or otherwise assists in its commission..." in Art. 25(3)(c). Doesn't that mean anybody who takes part in US-led operations where war crimes have allegedly been committed? Or does this work the other way around, so that the US umbrella exculpates even the European partners? If one result of the Milosevic trial is the American unsigning of the ICC Statue, a further result would be the dissolution of Nato for all practical purposes. Doesn't the apathetic response to the current Nato "war on terror" under Art. 5 of Nato treaty show you that the glory days of Nato are gone? Jari Nousiainen Finland Thursday July 25, 2002 at 8:53 am It is said “Two wrongs do not make a right”: I say four wrongs cannot make a right. Wrong 1: Palpable but yet to be proved in a court: secret cemeteries in Serbia? The Danube freezer truck story is of little significance compared to the security forces training site, 13th May military compound at Batjonica, to which the trucked bodies were allegedly removed. If such a site with mass graves exists, possibly containing also missing Serbs, then Milosevic stands condemned whether he knew about it or not. No Head of State can be excused when his Ministers condone and possibly organise secret burials in secret cemeteries. This statement applies equally to the KLA Leadership, and the Nato powers that promote them, for the secret graves of the missing abducted people in Kosovo. However the possible trickery of the Western powers with war crimes of their own to hide and billions of dollars to spend in bribes, generated by the tens of billions of dollars to be gained from colonising the Balkans, cannot be discounted. Nato is already on record as having bribed the Serbian government for the kidnapping of Milosevic. UN officials have complained of the transport of bodies from Albania into Kosovo: this traffic may be quite innocent but then again it might not. A Kosovo Albanian abattoir in Prizren close to the Albanian border owned the truck in the Danube. The first forensic requirement is to identify the origin of the bodies in this truck. The second forensic requirement is to establish when this truck went into the Danube: Was it in March 1999 as claimed or in May 2001. A third forensic requirement is to confirm and then establish the identities of the alleged hundreds of other victims in this alleged secret cemetery in a Serbian military site: if it really exists. Where are the investigative journalists to ensure that this is done? Wrong 2: This war was started by the KLA with covert Nato backing. Whatever crime Milosevic may have committed in combating the insurgency this does not exonerate the KLA for the major responsibility for the catastrophe in Kosovo. It does not exonerate the KLA for the murder of hundreds of Serbs, other minorities and even Kosovo Albanians. It does not exonerate the KLA for the abduction, torture, murder and hiding of 1500 members of the minorities in Kosovo: the vast majority of which it still refuses to locate. It does not excuse the KLA for the ethnic cleansing of 200,000 Serbs and others from their centuries old homeland. It does not excuse the KLA and its offspring for forcing the remaining Serbs and others into ghettoes and for destroying or stealing 120 of their Churches, monasteries and other religious, commercial and civilian sites. Wrong 3: Whatever crime Milosevic committed while carrying out his duty to resist Nato’s attacks this does not excuse Nato’s own criminal acts. Nato’s covert support for the terrorist attacks of the KLA was a criminal act. Nato’s attack on the reduced Yugoslavia in 1999 was a criminal act. Nato’s indiscriminate deployment of cluster bombs, from a height of three miles, was a war crime. Nato’s flying bombs into public buildings was a war crime. Nato’ destruction of civilian infrastructure was a war crime. Wrong 4: Whatever crime Milosevic committed during his fight to protect the sovereignty of his Nation this does not justify the antics of the ICTY. This effectively Nato owned court is a charade of justice. Its repetitive presentation of false or irrelevant witnesses makes a mockery of justice. Its failure to penalise the many cases of perjury is a licence for its witnesses to lie. Its bias in not indicting a single member of the |KLA leadership for thousands of acts of terror is manifest. Its failure, over a period of four years, to call to account those responsible for the abduction, torture and murder of 1500 Kosovo Serbs and others is shocking. Let us never forget the purpose of the ICTY as revealed by these facts. Its purpose is simply to pin all the blame for the catastrophe in Serbia (Kosovo is a Province of Serbia) upon the Serbs in general and upon Milosevic in particular. Only in this way can Blair and his chums fashion for themselves some sort of wobbly excuse for their own dreadful criminal acts. Peter Taylor Herts/UK Thursday July 25, 2002 at 1:39 pm The Western ‘democracies’ and their ‘free and honest’ press. A headline in bold type in the World section of the Daily Telegraph (UK) today screams “Milosevic ‘knew of Kosovo atrocities.’” I have read the article through several times and nowhere do I see any evidence from the witness Markovic that makes such a claim. The same article may be read on this site published by the Electronic Telegraph. Also on this site a report yesterday in the New York Times claims “ Witness Links Milosevic to Plan to Cover Up Crimes in Kosovo.” The only evidence given by the witness Dragan Karleusa is hearsay evidence which is not accepted in a proper court. In contrast the following statement made a few days ago went unreported in the Western media available to me. “Pathologist and university professor Dr. Slavisa Dobricanin, the director of the Office for Exhumation and Identification of the Coordinating Center for Kosovo and Metohija, has confirmed that a joint team consisting of members of that organization and UNMIK has completed autopsies at the Center for Identification in Orahovac.” Following his comments on the recent autopsies on nine Serbs kidnapped, murdered and hidden by the KLA he added that there is a total of 170 graves in Dragodan but that, starting next week, in Orahovac they will be working on the identification of bodies from "well-known locations throughout Kosovo". First on the list is the identification of exhumed bodies from Suva Reka brought there from throughout Kosovo and Metohija. The Serbs claim that these also are the bodies of Serbs kidnapped and then murdered by members of the KLA. A report of hundreds of Serb bodies from mass graves throughout Kosovo and it is ignored by the Western media?. Above we had examples of dishonesty by Commission here we have dishonesty by Omission. What is it with these Western reporters: are they ashamed to admit to their previous miss reporting, possibly taken in by the KLA: are their reports censored: are they under threat of losing their jobs or even their lives? A few days ago the editor of Britain’s Daily Mirror newspaper, Piers Morgan, complained that Cherie Blair had asked his bosses to sack him because he had printed criticisms of the government led by her husband, Prime Minister Tony Blair. That says it all. Peter Taylor Herts/UK Thursday July 25, 2002 at 2:33 pm The western media is intimidated. This is possible because of the decline of political ideas, diversity of opinions, critical thinking and the triumphalism of bourgeois decadent values. Philosophical trends are very suitable for this new old thinking. You don't have to prove anything or say anything meaningful. It is sufficient as Patrick Ball believes, to show that your hypothesis could fit, that it could be plausible withtout having to establish an absolut fact. Others are saying that any theory holds to be true unless you can prove it wrong. What a happy new world, where the search for the truth or the fact is not longer necessary. The trial chamber besides perhaps judge Kwon, indeed the whole ICTY operates in the abstract concept of looking into the future by ignoring the past. The bombs will fall again. Gogol Charlemagne Conn. USA Thursday July 25, 2002 at 2:45 pm The BBC is also keeping the spin up in their article 'Milosevic 'fully aware of Kosovo atrocities'' in which Markovic says that the interior ministry had submitted daily secret reports on the situation to him and other government officials. The BBC thus concludes that these reports contained the stories of alledged attrocities. The BBC does not know whats in these 'secret' report. Nor do we. Does the prosecution know? http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/2151800.stm Peter Varavejke Belgium Thursday July 25, 2002 at 2:51 pm Pertti...yes both sides had mercenaries: http://www.russiajournal.com/printer/weekly183.html Hardoz Nails UK Thursday July 25, 2002 at 2:56 pm B92 in Serbia seems to be reporting much the same as the BBC: Milosevic closely informed on Kosovo operations 19:04 THE HAGUE, Thursday - Serbia’s former secret police chief told the trial of Slobodan Milosevic today that the ex-president had been well aware of alleged army and police atrocities in Kosovo. Rade Markovic, who was appointed state security chief by Milosevic, said the former Yugoslav president had been effective boss of the unit in its operations in the province. Testifying for a second day at the UN war crimes tribunal in The Hague, Markovic said the interior ministry submitted daily secret reports on the Kosovo situation to Milosevic and other members of the Serbian government, sidestepping the normal chain of command. “Vlajko Stojilkovic was duty-bound to inform Slobodan Milosevic daily on the activities of the interior ministry,” he said, in reference to the ex-interior minister who committed suicide minutes after Yugoslavia adopted legislation on cooperation with the Hague-based court. Markovic said he had applied to Milosevic “directly” when the state security service required funds to finance its activities, illegally transferring money from federal accounts to its own bank. (AFP) http://www.b92.net/archive/e/ Hardoz Nails UK Thursday July 25, 2002 at 4:57 pm I am a bit skeptical about russiajournal (Mr. Nails' recnet reference) based on the follwing reference to it: http://exile.ru/105/withputin.shtml w w US Thursday July 25, 2002 at 5:06 pm Nobody has shown any conclusive evidence the alleged atrocities had or have taken place. Now they are going to try the other way around: the evidence is "buried in the secret reports". Will Mr. Nice (NATO) produce one single written report describing the "atrocities" to prove their factual existence? For over 9 years the UNO inspectors looked for the "evidence" of the weapons of "mass destruction" in Iraq. The fact the inspectors could not find them was not due to the fact these weapons did not exist, but according to the new philosophy, it proved they were hiden! I am affraid bombs will fall again inevitably since only the purification of fire satisfies the high priests of world security . . . Gogol Charlemagne Conn. USA Thursday July 25, 2002 at 5:55 pm W W ...there are other references to Russian volunteers/mercenaries. BELGRADE (Agence France Presse) A first group of Russian volunteers arrived Sunday in the northern Serbian town of Novi Sad to defend Yugoslavia, the official Tanjug news agency said. http://www.seebo.net/russiavols.html Hardoz Nails UK Thursday July 25, 2002 at 7:02 pm Hardoz Nails it is time you signed on this web page with your real name. Why hide behind a pseudonym? You don’t need to be skeptical about Russian volunteers on the Serbian side. I know that many Russians did in fact participate in B & H and in fact there is a monument to one of them in Bileca Herzegovina. #### As to the bodies in the freezer truck in the Danube one must be an idiot to think that the SERBS used this method to hide their supposed atrocities in Kosovo. The next thing we will be told is that the SERBS dug up the “magistrala” (highway) between Zagreb and Belgrade to hide the bodies from Bosnia. You need to be an idiot to use the Danube as a hiding place since the Danube is the busiest waterway in Europe, at least up to the or before the bombing of the bridges at Novi Sad. The freezer truck is one more pile of mud in the murky waters of the Milosevic trial. The favorite method of hiding the truth is to muddy the waters with ‘he said she said’ or with just one more scenario that presents confusion. ### Some questions to legal experts out there? Can Milosevic call no evidence once the persecution has ended its farcical presentation??? Can Milosevic use the court to apprehend witnesses , like in the Markovic case, if they refuse to appear? For example if Milosevic wishes Clinton to testify will he be able to apprehend him if he refuses to be examined???? Walter Trkla Kamloops BC Canada Thursday July 25, 2002 at 7:42 pm Walter..Privacy is my right as it is yours. I know Russian's fought along side Serbian forces in the Balkans. I brought it up as Andre asked for any guess's as to the "unfamiliar" or "unknown" language Branislav Petrovic heard. Most people here hold differing views from myself on this discussion topic, we DON'T know the truth of any of it and probably never will. We guess, assume and interpret facts to suit our own political agenda's...does that make us idiots, I'd say not, but you obviously know better. Hardoz Nails UK Thursday July 25, 2002 at 8:49 pm Mr. Hardoz Nails I have no political agenda nor do I have a monopoly on the truth. I have lived some of the experiences that I write about and I have observed the events in former Yugoslavia as well as in other parts of the world where Canada has participated. I have also spoken to members of the Canadian armed forces, both soldiers and high ranking officers in the army and the air force and I have posted their conversations with me on this web page. Some of these persons were former students in my history classes and some were members of my high school graduation class whom I met at reunions. I have no political agenda other than the truth be it about Yugoslavia, Iraq, Vietnam, Panama, El Salvador, Columbia or the Middle East. I am concerned that my country Canada participates in wars against sovereign nations by circumventing the political process. This web page request your name so if you want to participate don’t hide behind a pseudonym. You want to find me come to Kamloops my name is in the phonebook and like my former students who served in Bosnia and Croatia you will be welcomed. Walter Trkla Kamloops BC Canada Thursday July 25, 2002 at 9:00 pm Hardoz Nails if you read my post you will note that I did not call people who believe that the Serbs used the Danube to hide bodies as idiots. I said the Serbs who supposedly did this must be idiots. Personally I don’t think that Milosevic or his secret service had anything to do with the Danube truck. This is one more shovel of mud in the already muddy waters of the Milosevic trial. You know well that the best way to hide the truth is to present many scenarios so that you and I can debate until the “cows come home” and in the end we will not be any wiser. This is a tactic to hide the truth. Walter Trkla Kamloops BC Canada Friday July 26, 2002 at 12:17 am RE: Slobodan Milosevic is at serious risk of a heart attack and needs more time to rest, according to a report issued after a U.N. medical examination of the former president. "Milosevic is a man with severe cardiovascular risk which requires future monitoring," presiding judge Richard May said at the Yugoslav war crimes tribunal Thursday. Details of the medical report, ordered by the court in June after Milosevic spent several weeks in bed, were not released. The tribunal recommended that Milosevic, who has led his own defense against war crimes charges, appoint legal counsel to reduce his workload. Responding angrily in court, Milosevic said he had never sought medical examination "not even when I suffered high fever." He again refused to appoint a lawyer saying the court "should not harbor any illusions that I am asking for anything." Note how the prosecution who a few weeks ago nearly ridiculed Milosevic for falling ill every time when allegedly his cross-examination of witnesses did not go well, now shows this sudden concern for his health. He should "rest" and "hire a legal council", you see. What I notice as happening is that THEY are fighting to wrest more time for themselves, withdraw and regroup their positions, exactly because things do not go well for THEM. Appointing a "legal council" would be a de jure recognition of the "court" it does not deserve, and an officially appointed "legal council" would have to share defense materials with the prosecution with regard to the upcoming witnesses. Milosevic appears to be just fine, thank you. Andre Huzsvai U.S. Friday July 26, 2002 at 12:31 am RE: Russian "mercenaries". It is a matter of record that there were Russian volunteers both in BH and in Kosovo during the tumult, including cossacks, panslav nationalists of all stripes, and professional soldiers. "Mercenaries" are usually paid hire. To what I happened to know, none of the Russians was paid for his services. By the way, during the 1991-1995 wars all sides welcomed outside volunteers. But one glance at their nature speaks volumes. The Bosnians were importing cutthroat mujahedeen bankrolled by Saudis and Iran. Croatia was flooded with neonazi skinheads primarily from Germany and Austria who were in for the thrill of fighting under WWII-era fascist flags, including ones with a swastika, for Croatia was the only European country at the time where the display of swastika was NOT illegal. Is anyone still bothered by the past presence of the Russians? Andre Huzsvai U.S. Friday July 26, 2002 at 12:39 am RE: Branislav Petrovic and the "funny language". Hardos appers to imply a Russian connection. Nonsense. No Serb would render spoken Russian "unrecognizable" or "unknown". For reasons of language history and the shared cultural background rooted in Eastern Orthodoxy and Old Church Slavonic, the Russian is way too close to Serbo-Croatian to allow for such hypothesis. Andre Huzsvai U.S. Friday July 26, 2002 at 3:30 am First, as to Rade Markovic. It is true that according to the latest B92 report Markovic said Milosevic knew about the alleged atrocities (actually I think he said Milosevic could have known). The day before B92 had reported that "prosecutors failed to draw a direct link with the ex-president in the chain of command for operations in Kosovo". The difference is of course the type of individual criminal responsibility. Now that it is shown that Milosevic didn't order the alleged atrocities (Art. 7-1 of the Statute), it must be shown that he knew about them (Art. 7-3). As to Art. 7, it should be obvious on a closer reading that Art. 7(3) can't apply to Milosevic, because he was not the "superior". If it did, all who knew would have to be punished, including Human Rights Watch. And the point of the whole exercise: what atrocities was he supposed to know about? The prosecution has shown that Milosevic knew of the atrocities, so this is supposed to show that they were atrocities. What an interesting reasoning! Just a reality check. Is the contention now that 10,000 bodies were taken by freezer trucks and dumped along the rivers? I just want to make sure I have understood this correctly. We had an interesting exchange about the removal of 10,000 bodies during a 78-day bombing campaign. It would require the removal of 100+ bodies a day. What else does it require? It requires that the Serbs knew that the bombing would last for 78 days. There is a mathematical wonder at work here. If they killed 10,000 civilians during the first couple of days, they had to make the bombing last for about three months, so they could remove all the bodies at a rate of about 100 bodies a day. If they didn't know how long the bombing was going to last, the Serb forces had to be given a quorum of 100 killed civilians a day, so the bodies could be removed without any lag. Two problems. If such a quorum was given, we should have heard about it by now. Anyway, if there was a massive removal campaign, the less likely clue would be a freezer truck in the Danube! Second, the Serbs did not want the bombing to continue. They didn't even want it to begin. When the bombing did begin, they took the matter very fast to the ICJ, and the provisional measures to get the bombing stopped had all the likelihood of being indicated. As anyone who has been on the Danube knows, the freezer truck(s) should not have been dumped in the Danube. That is an internationalized waterway. There is even an international commission for the Danube, which maintains the traffic on the river (one of the oldest international organizations by the way). Any ship of any nation with an echo sounder would have noticed immediately the curious piece of junk in the river. Bombing the bridges didn't make the place any more suitable, even if the international traffic was temporarily cut off. Everybody knew that the bridges would be rebuilt: Milosevic even boasted of the reconstruction of one major bridge. And at that point the whole waterway had to be checked, probably by the international Danube commission. So, if the bodies were dumped there, they were meant to be found, and that sheds a very curious light on the whole freezer truck story. Anyway, where is the forensic investigation? Remember that the forensic experts investigating the Racak massacre appeared as witnesses in the trial. (By the way, why didn't Helena Ranta, the head of the international forensic team on Racak, appear as a witness?) Where are the forensic experts now? If there are none, that would suggest that no investigation was done. Jari Nousiainen Finland Friday July 26, 2002 at 9:08 am Walter..I respect your knowledge and will endeavour to read more of your posts from the archive. I have no interest in who people are in this board but rather what they have to say. I have supplied a working e-mail to post here and should the moderators feel I'm breaking the rules no doubt I'll hear from them. I will ofcourse cease posting to this board as I value my privacy, two years ago I had a nasty experience after using my own name in a Yugoslav topic Usenet forum, my phone number and address was published, my home was vandalised and my wife abused on the phone, so I'm sure you will understand my position. I apologise if I miss-read your post. One thing I have noticed in this board, wrongly maybe, is the assumption that its the ICTY/Nato that's "muddied the water", has Milosevic not too had the opportunity to create his own smoke screen, after all he had a year in office after the indictment was issued. Are we to believe that he sat idly by and awaited his arrest? Regards Hardoz Nails UK Friday July 26, 2002 at 9:17 am Andre.. what sugestions do you have for this "funny language"? English is well know to most Europeans, Albanian would to be known to a Serb as would all other Balkan languages. Hardoz Nails UK Friday July 26, 2002 at 9:22 am All the while some of the participants in this discussion question the numbers of victims in Kosovo war of 1999,can theer be any doubt that people HAVE BEEN killed, wounded, expelled, maltreated and the like in vast enough numbers ... I mean, let´s take Racak ... we/I don´t know what really happened there, apart from the fact, which everybody seems to overloook, that 40 or so people have actually been murdered! It is a nasty bit of dogmaticism to insist on decomposing blown up numbers or incidents in media and elsewhere, with the result of blurring the issue that people 8and esp. albanians) in Kosovo have been, at times and by many in serbia, treated as worthless shit - and they still are, notably by Milosevic himself. It really doesn`t help Milosevic that albanians pay back with the same attitude. Look to Amnesty international or Human rights watch reports, or for those of us who are from YU, look into your soul. Now i can agree that ICTY is a problematic court, and that it operates on the grounds of almost racial criteria (why only ex-yugoslavia and ex-yugoslavs), but don´t let this blurr the issue that Milosevic era was a period of gross neglect of the value of human life and human dignity. He was the president, and he had enormous authority, but never really used it to prevent the abuses. Another thing: do you really believe that Milosevic et al could be tried at the serbian court? There is in other words some good coming out og ICTY: all the questions raised! Ex-Yugoslavia reconsidering itself is an issue that should be kept apart from the issue of ICTYs legitimacy and motives; let us not kid ourselves about what happened , not in terms of politics, but in terms of killings and abuses. And if you want a bit of cynism: if serbs don´t treat albanians as worthy of respect, than they´ll get the same in return. Nebojsa Matic Nebojsa Matic Oslo Norway/Serbia Friday July 26, 2002 at 9:42 am "peacekeepers" as the main customers of sex slave trade in BH and Kosovo: http://www.nationalpost.com/world/story.html?id=827E41FA-8880-45E3-8B35-83ECA450929B Andre Huzsvai U.S. Friday July 26, 2002 at 9:48 am RE: "funny language". The whole story is mysterious to the extent that there is no room for further speculation as to the nature of the language. Unless of course the Serbian police posed as extraterrestrials from Star Trek and reverted to "clingon" for conspitatorial reasons. Andre Huzsvai U.S. Friday July 26, 2002 at 9:51 am Walter and Hardoz: no reason to get personal about the name - it's such a waste of time. The alias is fine. Sure, "Hardon Nails" would be more fun, it's okay as is. Andre HUzsvai U.S. Friday July 26, 2002 at 9:58 am Rade Markovic today claimed some 400 members of the Yu force's were prosicuted for war crimes in Kosovo, as anyone seen reports of the verdicts? Hardoz Nails UK Friday July 26, 2002 at 10:08 am Andre..I think you have solved the language mystery... its obvious to me now, the MUP are all trekies :) Hardoz Nails UK Friday July 26, 2002 at 10:32 am Nebojsa: The animosities in Kosovo were the result not of "Serbs treating Albanians as sh**", but rather of the ever growing secessionst appetites of a bullying majority in Kosovo, spoiled by its lavish "minority" status in FRY prior to 1991 - a dream deal by any known "minority rights" standards. The problem of ethnic Albanians in Kosovo, as a numerous community that did not accept its status of the national minority and denied loyalty to Yugoslavia, became particularly tense and acute after disintegration of the Yugoslav federal state in 1991. Albanian extremists had consistently been refusing to settle the problem by means of the concept of human and civil rights, challenging the legitimacy of the unity of Yugoslavia. Proponents of the New World Order, and the U.S. above all, due to the geo-strategic significance of Yugoslavia and their own interests, openly supported such Albanian aims, exploiting them to achieve their own ends. In spite of the demographic explosion in Kosovo, the Albanian population was not as overwhelming as the Albanian separatist leaders claimed. The Albanian national minority refused to take part in the census in order to be able to speak about the figure of 1.700.000 Albanians in Kosovo - a figure they found by using the extrapolated birth rate. The main characteristics in Kosovo were the absence of dialogue and a deep division between the ethnic groups. In spite of the fact that the Albanians achieved an enviable standard of living and a demographic explosion (the highest birth rate in Europe) in Yugoslavia, the Albanian separatists did not want the normalization of the life in Kosovo and rejected every kind of dialogue which could contribute substantially to the normalization of the situation and to the lessening of the tensions. The high degree of autonomy and of national rights did not satisfy the Albanian nationalists. They organized a separatists’ rebellion in 1981, with “Kosovo Republic” as their main slogan. The slogan "Kosovo Republic" represented the main strategy of the Albanian separatism - the transformation of the Autonomous Province of Kosovo into a Republic that would have the right of secession. The Albanian separatist leaders in Kosovo never mentioned the question of the rights of national minorities, let alone the question of human rights and liberties. They openly and unequivocally requested an independent state. The Albanian separatist leaders organized elections in 1991, and established institutions of the “parallel authorities” which represented a “state alternative” to Federal Yugoslavia. The selective non-recognition of the state authority in which they lived and worked was reflected in the refusal to serve in the army, and non-participation in the elections - had they participated in the elections, the Albanians would have had, bearing given the population, more than 30 out of 250 deputies in the Serbian Parliament, around 12 out of 178 deputies in the Federal Parliament, and some 80% of the deputies in the Parliament of Kosovo. It is quite obvious that the members of the Albanian national minority would have had practically the entire power in the Province. They separatist goals were reflected in non-payment of all state taxes and duties. At the same time, they regularly paid to the “parallel authorities" 3% of their income that was often a pure and simple blackmail of their compatriots. They also established “parallel schools” exclusively for the members of the Albanian national minority. The teaching was performed according to nationalist and separatist programs, in non-adequate premises. The level of the knowledge acquired was best shown by the fact that their diplomas were not recognized anywhere in the world. Generations of the Albanian youth were handicapped educationally at the very start, and the “parallel schools” resulted in the final ethnic division among the young, in the closing of the young members of the Albanian national minority in the dogmas of extreme nationalism and separatism and the creation of the notion that common life with Serbs is impossible. The demonstrations and requests to return to the school buildings had as objective only the seizure of the buildings, and not the acceptation of the valid curriculum - as a matter of fact, they wanted to continue the “parallel schools” in the school buildings. The boycott of the educational system of the Republic of Serbia, which guaranteed and assured conditions for teaching in Albanian prevented the application of the Declaration on the Rights of National, Ethnic, Religious and Language minorities, adopted by the UN General Assembly in 1992. The manipulation of the young for the achievement of separatist objectives violated the UN Declaration on the Rights of Children and the International Convention on the Rights of Children. Such a behavior represented a violation of the provision 37 of the Final Document of the 2nd Meeting of the Conference on Human Dimension of the OSCE (Copenhagen, 1990), and of the Paragraph 9 of the Preamble, of the articles 20 and 21 of the Framework Convention of the Council of Europe on the Protection of National Minorities. These provisions do not allow to the minorities any activities that would be contrary to the principles of the UN Charter, of the OSCE, and especially to the principle of respect of the territorial integrity, of the Constitution and the laws of the countries in which the minorities live. At the same time, the Albanian minority used all the benefits given by the state and the system they did not recognize, but which were suitable for them, including health insurance, employments in public and private sectors, all rights in the field of information, passports, vaccination of the population, etc. The Albanian national minority had the Albanian Drama, a Section of the Academy of Science, an Authors’ Association, a Musicians’ Association and over 100 cultural and artistic associations. These institutions were financed by the Republic of Serbia. As we know the appetite grows with eating - the more you give the more they want. Andre Huzsvai U.S Friday July 26, 2002 at 10:41 am Peter Taylor...Re the 9 Serb victims and the western media. I read this story on Tanjug, but before you bash the western media on this story, perhaps you could point me in the direction of any other media that covered this story? Hardoz Nails UK Friday July 26, 2002 at 2:32 pm Inept prosecution or innocent man? Just a straw poll guys. Your thoughts please. Hardoz Nails UK Friday July 26, 2002 at 4:50 pm "Inept prosecution" or "innocent man"? Here: "Rade Markovic told the trial that no policy of ethnic cleansing existed during the 1999 conflict. The key prosecution witness told the International War Crimes Tribunal on Friday that the Yugoslav army and Serbian police had strict orders to protect Albanian civilians during NATO bombing. "He also denied that his former boss had ordered Serb forces to hide evidence of mass executions of Albanians. "The man who had led Serbia's secret police during the Kosovo conflict said: "I never got any order, nor did I hear about any order or plan to expel Albanians." He said he had no information on any alleged war crimes committed in Kosovo, and that those who committed such crimes were prosecuted. In addition Milosevic himself said several times that "every crime must be immediately punished." Looks like Carla just shot herself in the foot. If she's smart enough she won't insist on Lilic's testimony - a repeat of Markovic's performance may well send her packing. Andre Huzsvai U.S. Friday July 26, 2002 at 6:43 pm QUESTION? Rade Markovic today claimed some 400 members of the Yu forces were prosecuted for war crimes in Kosovo, as anyone seen reports of the verdicts? AN ANSWER: This has been written on in the Serbian newspapers, not in the Western ones. I am sure that this is the truth that will come and get Carla once when Mr. Milosevic starts his difference and present documentation on this. Prosecution is fishing and their case is collapsing key witness after key witness. The trial is becoming boring and will continue like this until Mr. Milosevic starts his defense or dies from induced hearth attack which will come as a blessing to the prosecution and World Community at large. Pera Bora Ontario/Canada Friday July 26, 2002 at 7:35 pm The whistle has blown to end the first periode in this new blood sport called war crimes tribunal. Not the best start for the new league. The media coverage promised by CNN and BBC, left the arena early as Slobo delt Carla a few body blows in the opening minutes. Instead of being a good bull and letting the picadors lance him into submission as planned, Slobo goared a few horses and chased the wouldbe matadors off the feild of play. Sorry for mixing metafors but, sportsfans, the score is Slobo 10, Carla 0, or Game one 6- love. I'll use football to score the next periode, quater, chuker, whatever. Pertti Lindroos Quesnel B.C. Canada Friday July 26, 2002 at 7:54 pm Misrepresentation: the BBC joins in. “Peter Taylor...Re the 9 Serb victims and the western media. I read this story on Tanjug, but before you bash the western media on this story, perhaps you could point me in the direction of any other media that covered this story? Hardoz Nails. UK” In reply to your comment, reprinted above, may I ask is your inference that because Tanjug is the only publisher then this report must be untrue: Or is your inference that because no Western media has covered it the report must be untrue? You have made my point exactly: I cannot point you in the direction of any Western media source for this report. You will note that the report was published jointly on behalf of UNMIK thus you may verify it at source. There are two basic types of misrepresentation practised by the Western media. The misrepresentations described above are ones of omission. The misrepresentations described below ones of commission. Following Wednesday’s Daily Telegraph headline “Milosevic ‘knew of Kosovo atrocities’” the BBC reports under the headline “Milosevic ‘aware of Kosovo atrocities’”. Nowhere in the reports of his direct speech did Rade Markovic make such a claim. Both the telegraph and the BBC reports are available on this website and I defy anyone to show me where Markovic testified that “Milosevic knew” or was “aware of Kosovo atrocities”. To confirm this fact today Markovic testified that Milosevic was not responsible for atrocities in Kosovo and had given orders to prevent them. He also claimed that he had been offered a deal to give false testimony. New Labour controls the BBC. Prominent New Labour supporters Gavin Davies and Greg Dyke are Chairman and Director General respectively. Another New Labour supporter, Lord Currie, has been appointed head of the communications regulatory body. Don’t expect to see any news from the BBC, Mr Nails, which reflects badly on Cluster Bomber Blair’s government. BBC newsreader John Humphrys revealed this week that his publications were subject to censorship. Recently Blair’s wife demanded that the Daily Mirror editor be sacked for publishing criticism of the New Labour government. New Labour has a lot to hide: For starters one thousand five hundred bodies of the Kosovo minorities abducted, tortured, murdered and hidden by its chums in the KLA. What is the agenda, I always wonder, of those who seek to hide, omit, deny or distort the truth? Peter Taylor Herts/UK Friday July 26, 2002 at 8:39 pm Peter Taylor..I cast no doubt on the truthfulness of the story, I have no reason to think it untrue. My point was you bash the so called western media for not covering the story but make no mention of it not being covered in any other regional media. I believe that the world in general has lost interest in things Balkan and war, to my mind only the Serbian media covers the trial on a more or less daily basis. As for "misrepresentation" B92(Serbia) carried basically the same headline, so I would guess that makes this particular interpretation of Rade Markovic words not peculiar to the western media. What is the Serbian media's agenda, where is the deep investigative journalism re mass grave in Serbia? So I'll turn your word back on you: What is the agenda, I always wonder, of those who seek to hide, omit, deny or distort the truth? Hardoz Nails UK Friday July 26, 2002 at 8:48 pm Peter Taylor.. On an off topic note, how do you manage your very readable formating on this board, paragraphs, bold text ect. Hardoz Nails UK Friday July 26, 2002 at 9:07 pm The media, which used to be called the press involving writers of a certain culture and conviction, now the media, is just a broad machine of propaganda serving several masters, all part of a plutocracy. Agenda? In this case to keep the truth, the truth which Mr. Milosevic defends and seems to be ready to give his life for when he tells the court: "I never asked to stop the procedings because my poor health", to keep the truth to reach the docile masses of Europeans and less so, I supose of Americans. Propaganda, yes, the propaganda that fed the masses with the notion of a new European "holocaust" after years of Disneylysing it, where universities were offering degrees on holocaustic studies without knowing what the Rennaisance or the Enlightment are. How alarming to see every intellectual of the left and right, previous crime organisers in Central America, all joining forces to denounce a "genocide" in the darkness and mistery of the Balkans. This trial is not all about Mr. Milosevic but about the holly alliance of the most powerful and rich nations of this planet against the small and independent, the lucky nations that because their historical process are able to determine and shape their present and future and which NATO finds intolerable that a David can face up to a Goliath unmasking his clay feet. Is it all what is left of European civilisation, when allows itself to be dragged to a criminal aggression against a small and nearly defenceless sovereign nation? Gogol Charlemagne Conn.USA Saturday July 27, 2002 at 4:45 am The formatting information was give by Jari in an earlier post but I will repeat it hear. Prefix a sentence with the characters “ ” to form a paragraph prefix text with “” to bolden and switch bold off with “” Prefix text with “” to italicise and switch it off with “” The problems in Serbia are for others. My concern is the criminality of the British Government and the lack of ethical standards in theWestern, mainly British, media. Peter Taylor Herts/UK Saturday July 27, 2002 at 4:53 am Quoting the characters did not work. In order: P in angle brackets. B in angle brackets. Switch of by prefacing B with / I in angle brackets. Switch off by prefacing I with / Peter Taylor Herts/UK Saturday July 27, 2002 at 11:54 am I entirely subscribe to the ideas and outraged expressed in this article.LINK Gogol Charlemagne Conn. USA Saturday July 27, 2002 at 6:49 pm Yesterday saw the latest of the umpteenth of thousands of terror attacks on the minority populations in Kosovo since Nato took control more than three years ago: A mortar grenade attack on the monastery of Visegrad. Tony’s chums in Kosovo, the KLA and its offspring, continue their ethnic cleansing while Tony’s cronies in the media make sure the prols don’t hear about it by keeping shtum. Is del Ponte ever going to indict anyone for thousands of horrific crimes committed by Kosovo’s manifestly real ethnic cleansers? What a joke court. Source: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/decani/message/68399 Peter Taylor Herts/UK Saturday July 27, 2002 at 8:24 pm Jared's excellend summary of the Markocic performance is a must read: http://emperors-clothes.com/milo/rade.htm Andre Huzsvai U.S. Sunday July 28, 2002 at 12:52 pm Why all the sudden the interest in Milosevic's heart condition. Are we being primed for something to happen? How else will NATO and the US escape this debacle? T M USA Sunday July 28, 2002 at 12:52 pm Why all the sudden the interest in Milosevic's heart condition. Are we being primed for something to happen? How else will NATO and the US escape this debacle? T M USA Sunday July 28, 2002 at 2:21 pm On 26 June while Mr. Milosevic was sick and away from the court, the chamber had a hearing, among other things Mr. Nice(NATO) the manager so to speak of the prosecutor's team, complained to the court about the fact Mr. Milosevic was sick now for the second time since the beginning of his trial 12 February. "I am sceptical" he said "about his health" Judge May(NATO) ordered a medical inquiry to be conducted about Mr. Milosevic health by a medical panel and to present its finding to the court by 17 July. Earlier in the trail Mr. Milosevic had complained about his detention conditions, not only the telephone was not working on several occasions, but the air conditioning system did not work and he did not get enough time to walk and get fresh air. Then he became sick. On 17 July we, the public I mean, learned from the media that the 18 and 19 July hearings were cancelled because he had high blood pressure and the prison doctors wanted to bring his pressure down and change his blood pressure medication. It is obvious the report from the medical commission had alarmed the trial chamber and the prison doctor and were acting in a hurry. It wasn't until the hearing on 25 July one day before recess that judge May(NATO) announced the findings about Mr. Milosevices health condition, judge Robinson(COLONIAL) asked Mr. Milosevic to name council for his defence and added "your health is of tantamount importance for the chamber" which can be interpreted in more than one way. In any event May(NATO) ordered futher health inquiry and said that after its findings the chamber will determine what to do. Pravdaquoted some sources saying the judges are ready to stop the trial all together and technically I think this is possible, but will it satisfy NATO? Gogol Charlemagne Conn. USA Sunday July 28, 2002 at 9:30 pm To Mr Nails: I had to rush off to a meeting yesterday so my reply to your post on Friday was brief. However I cannot let you get away with some dishonest arguments. You state “My point was you bash the so called western media for not covering the story but make no mention of it not being covered in any other regional media.” What I said, as you may read above, was that a statement by Dr. Slavisa Dobricanin “made a few days ago went unreported in the Western media available to me.” I did not mention “it not being covered in any other regional media” for three reasons. First it is not true: At least Tanjug covered it. Secondly I have no means of knowing what other regional media may have published it because I don’t have access to their media and I do not speak Russian, Chinese, Japanese, Hungarian, Bulgarian, Rumanian … Nor I suspect do you! Thirdly and most importantly what relevance would the fact be that other media didn’t cover a story that the Western media ought to have covered but did not? In case your logic is confused I will tell you: None at all. As for your indirect claim that B92(Serbia) is not part of the Western media I will give you the benefit of the doubt and attribute this to ignorance rather than dishonesty. B92 is part owned and financed by the West. Does the financier George Soros ring any bells? Legal control of both the Help B92 website, and the Free B92 website were, and are, ultimately exercised by the board of KPN Telecom. The CEO at KPN Telecom is Wim Dik, a former Netherlands Secretary of State for Foreign Trade. More realistically, daily control of the content of the websites probably rests with Maurice Wesseling, director of XS4ALL Nederland BV, a subsidiary of KPN Telecom. As I said before: What is the agenda, I always wonder, of those who seek to hide, omit, deny or distort the truth? You are very good at turning words but instead of turning my words back on me I suggest you ponder who it is you think you’re kidding: While we all ponder whether you are a New Labour spin-doctor, a BBC thought-policeman or some other kind of axe grinder. Peter Taylor Herts/UK Monday July 29, 2002 at 12:28 am T M: I share your concerns. It appears that a sudden heart attack with a deadly outcome would be the prosecution's only way out in the face of utter disgrace. May be a frivolous parallel, but it reminds me of the scene from Bob Fosse's "All That Jazz" where the producers, directors and lawyers of the upcoming Broadway show discuss all pros and cons of staging or cancelling it in view of the health condition of the star choreographer, and come to the conclusion that their best money-saving option would be if they just let him die of a heart attack without making any effort to prevent it from happening. Does life imitates art again, as in the "Wag the Dog?" Andre Huzsvai U.S. Monday July 29, 2002 at 3:02 am Jared Israel's and Nico Varkevisser's article on Rade Markovic is excellent. There you get a glimpse of what happened to "Nikola": he was promised a false identity and a luxurious life, just like Markovic. Remember that "Nikola" too was offered a new life in the West. This is how the prosecution gets its witnesses. The Rade Markovic case is very interesting. If he was Milosevic's henchman in Kosovo, why did he come to The Hague as a witness and not as an indictee? Why was he kept in prison in Serbia on charges that had nothing to do with Kosovo? I have said it before but I will say it again. The prosecution doesn't believe its own charges. If there were 10,000 killed in Kosovo, why isn't one of the Kosovo charges genocide? The 7,000 to 8,000 alleged victims in Bosnia justified a genocide charge. And more about Rade Markovic. He said that war criminals were charged and punished in Serbia. This is the first time I hear that there were 400 of them. However, the news in itself is nothing new. I read it in the Decani mailings. As it is impossible for me to remember the news service it was from, I cannot swear it was a "Western" source, but I believe it was, because it said: "These are believed to be the first war crimes convictions in Serbia relating to Kosovo." If I am not totally mistaken, it didn't mention the figure of 400, which would also point to a source friendly to the West. The Rade Markovic testimony also shows how short the prosecution's memory is. The previous day they heard in effect that Milosevic was outside the chain of command in Kosovo. The next day the prosecution wants to prove Milosevic's "command responsibility" on the basis of Art. 7(3) of the Statute. But let's be generous. Maybe it doesn't matter that he was not a "superior" in the sense of Art. 7(3). He might have been in the position to stop the alleged atrocities. But wasn't that exactly what he was doing in the first place? He wasn't part of the command structure of the KLA either, but he did everything he could to stop the atrocities committed by them. But maybe Milosevic's power should be confined to Serbs. How was he supposed to prevent the alleged atrocities committed by them? I guess the only option would have been a surrender to the aggression (or humanitarian intervention, as it was called). However, this would bring on the "Bosnia" logic again. Why didn't he surrender earlier? Besides, what excuse would have there been for Nato not to stop the bombing? It was said very well above: the prosecution is fishing. How long are they allowed to go on fishing? Doesn't producing false witnesses by obscure methods carry any penalty? I guess not, if Rade Markovic's account of torture is ruled "irrelevant". It was asked above if Nato will allow this trial to be stopped. This is again a very good question. Maybe the trial stopped Nato. I suggest that the Milosevic trial was what triggered the American unsigning of the ICC Statute. For the Americans, the Milosevic was the end of the new world order. For the Europeans and the Canadians, it was the start. Under these circumstances, there is no way Nato is going to survive. Any joint operation would put the ICC members at risk of indictment. Also the "moral hangover" component caused by the Kosovo bombing was quite different. If the trial were televised, it would reawaken those feelings of guilt, this side of the Atlantic (or the Channel). The Americans can go on applying their literary theories to this trial and praising its didactic value, but in the end it is most likely only the Americans themselves that will be "re-educated" by their own propaganda. So there is the "Ketyn" incident that triggered Glasnost and brought down the Soviet Union. Only, it wasn't the US that fell but Nato. The problem is this: why would Nato want this trial to go on to exonerate itself? Nato has ceased to exist for all practical purposes (that's why it now can enlarge itself out of existence). So this trial would be a show trial in more ways than one. First, everything is meant to exonerate Nato. Second, Nato doesn't have to be exonerated. Maybe the trial is only meant to act as a springboard to the new world order for those who still believe in it (regardless of the trial). Del Ponte's prosecution is horrendous. If the trial is allowed to continue and if a sentence is reached, the appalling level of dilettantism shown by the prosecution can only act in its favour. Maybe the judges want to make the prosecutors feel good about themselves. Maybe the judges want to feel good about themselves. Maybe the trial is meant to keep May and Del Ponte from doing anything more catastrophic somewhere else. If there were a jury in this trial, the outcome would be very different. Now we are the jury. Jari Nousiainen Finland Monday July 29, 2002 at 5:19 am Andre: In reply to your detailed reminder on the freedom and prosperity for the albanian society in Kosovo, I´d like to point out two things 1.All the benefits of an independent, prosperous society backed by serbia proper is more true for the pre- Milosevic era: after him, things started deteriorating. Of course the albanian apetites grew bigger, as you point out, but it should have been obvious that serbia should not have answered this with oppression, even if in its own right. It is not human, and it doesn`t work. 2. when i say that albanians "were treated like sh** ... " i mean that the popular concept of albanians in serbian eyes has always been the one of savages unworthy of human treatment; add to this the brutality of serbian society (read police) from before, a brutality and the view on human life that has of course effected serbs as well, you can only imagine the treatment many albanians got. To put it mildly. Now the real savagry of albanian extremism: isn`t it easier to cope with that with your hands clean (as much as possible)? Nebojsa Matic serbia/norway Monday July 29, 2002 at 6:02 am Nebojsa,do You suggest that the Serbs became racists towards Albanians when Milosevic came to power?? Is he guilty also of transforming the serb mentality?? How do You explain then that Roma are treated in Yugoslavia better than in other "civilized western countries?? Serjoe B Italy Monday July 29, 2002 at 7:42 am "Andre.. what sugestions do you have for this "funny language"? English is well know to most Europeans, Albanian would to be known to a Serb as would all other Balkan languages. Hardoz Nails UK" /P/ What if the people in the freezer truck were illegal migrants? (There was a case of a truckload of dead Chinese people arriving at Dover last year). I think that to a Serb from that region Hungarian, Romanian and Bulgarian would be known languages. I am not sure about Albanian thought. Would he be able to distinguish it between Turkish and Greek for example? I don't think so.. Neka Mira UK Monday July 29, 2002 at 8:09 am The media in my community will print letters to the editor but they reserve the right to edit the material for brevity. The only article that the local media “Western Canada” dealt with was Milosevic’s opening statement but they called it a diatribe. There were articles in the “Globe and Mail” out of Toronto when Paddy Ashdown was a witness, one was titled “Milosevic Meets His Match”. The “National Post” out of Toronto has had articles on the Trial of the Century but in most cases for every positive slant three were negative. I have not seen a single article on the blatant dishonesty of most of the witnesses for the prosecution. The truck in the Danube has been on TV at least three times. The report was a condemnation of Milosevic without any evidence to tie the truck to him or his secret service. ### Recently I saw an interesting, if somewhat one sided two hour presentation on the History Channel titled “Moral Combat NATO at War”. It was hosted by Lloyd Robertson a well known CTV anchor out of Toronto. Robertson premised the program with a comment that Yugoslavia invaded Kosovo as if it was some foreign nation rather than a province of Yugoslavia. I would say that Kosovo is somewhat similar to Northern Ireland. Like in Northern Ireland where religion, economic inequality and political control are claimed grievances of the IRA they are likewise the same grievances of the KLA. As to Serbs treating the Albanians as S***, as Nebojisa claims, this does not justify acts of murder by Serbian police or the KLA. Nebojisa,I don’t agree with you that the Albanians were treated any differently from other groups in Yugoslavia. The tactics that the Albanians used to create an ethnically pure Kosovo is a matter of historical record. Taci on this program admitted that he instructed the KLA to kill policemen, postmen and innocent civilians with specific design to provoke the police. Police in any society will protect their own and they are trained to serve the state and the amount of force they use is never proportional. ### This program also had some interesting things which were new to me. Ruben (Husband of Christiana Amanpour) admitted on this program that the Yugoslavs were fighting a terrorist organization. Even though, this admission which is somewhat late, nevertheless, is an admission which he hid during his diatribe as a mouthpiece of Clinton. The other interesting thing was the revelation on this program that France played a pivotal role in supplying the Yugoslavs with NATO secrets and targeting plans. The American general Wesley Clark and the German general Neumann wanted to teach the Serbs a lesson by bombing the so called “dancing bridge” but the target was vetoed by Frame. This program also showed the lack of NATO interest in protecting the minorities, what is left of them, in Kosovo. The program showed a Serbian family burned to death in their car by Albanians as NATO troops looked on refusing to interfere. The driver of the car was a mathematics professor who had been a guest lecturer at Berkley. He was shot in his car and the car set on fire. His wife and another member of his family, while trying to escape from the burning vehicle, were beaten unconscious in front of NATO troops who refused to interfere. The Western Media has not reported any of this.### The media in Canada has not dealt with Judge May and his constant badgering of Milosevic. The Media has been silent on the lack of due process in the trial. LOUISE ARBOUR has become the darling of the Media and the legal community is silent on her selection as a Justice of the Supreme Court of Canada. It does not speak well for our justice system when one is selected to the highest court in the land as a reward for one’s loyalty to NATO. What are her credentials for this post? She was on the Supreme Court of Ontario and she was the head of a Commission that investigated abuses in the Prison for Women in the Kingston Penitentiary. Her recommendations were implemented and now we are blessed with Halfway Houses in our communities that house sexual predators. To be fair, some of her recommendations for non violent offenders and native women are innovative. She has been nominated as a Canadian choice for judgeship on the ICC. If this is the best we can do our legal profession is in deep trouble. ### As I stated before, I have no political agenda. My interest in this Trial concerns Canada’s participation as an aggressor nation rather than a peacekeeper. We were respected in the past for our efforts in peacekeeping operations but now we have become an appendage of American foreign policy, a sort of a surrogate, which the Americans use to show that they are not alone. Personally I don’t like what we have become.#### Andre, I think, mentioned that the issue of someone using a pseudonym should not concern me. A post under a pseudonym lacks credibility. One of the requirements of this page is the use of ones own name and using anything but is dishonest. The gentleman in question indicated that he is from the UK. He also indicated that his family was harassed because he was speaking out on issues that others found objectionable. His fear of harassment is understandable but I am sure that in the UK there are ways of dealing with harassment without hiding from it. Walter Trkla Kamloops BC Canada Monday July 29, 2002 at 9:16 am To Serjoe B.: Of course Milosevic did not alter the serbian mentality, but he could have tried to do so - having been the authority he was - it was needed! Let´s take an example: how many serbs in Kosovo (not to speak of serbia proper) knew albanian, or albanian culture? I remember the State Television (RTS) answer to the killings and terrorism in Kosovo in the year(s) preceeding the bombing: one - 1 - thirty seconds still-film calling for peace, with a small threat wrapped up in the message (the image of a burnt out house contrasted to the image of two-three couples during an evening stroll by the river : now that is what i would call a laconic answer to a draconic challenge. There was no real dialogue between the serbs and the albanians, and the serbs should take their responsibility as well.Had there been a real dialogue, maybe serbia would not have had to fall pray of international "mediation", ICTY withstanding, at all. Nebojsa Matic serbia/norway Monday July 29, 2002 at 9:34 am RE: Nebojsa and the "clean hands" concept. Even in this department the Serbs would win hands down: There were instances of KLA abducting, killing Serb civilians, including children, and burning them in makeshift krematoriums BEFORE the NATO air war. By contrast, there were tens of thousands of Alabanian refugees seeking protection in Serbia proper, including Belgrade, and survived the hostilities unmolested AFTER the bombing commenced. ### Walter quoted Rubin as saying in the “Moral Combat NATO at War” that "Yugoslavia was fighting a terrorist organization." At the same time he is on the record as having said that "I wouldn't hesitate calling him [Thaci] a friend" (June 1999). Now which is it? Or he did not really know what he meant or that he did not meant what he said (in either case) much like it is the custom of his wife at CNN? Andre Huzsvai U.S. Monday July 29, 2002 at 11:13 am On stereotypes: Now who do you suppose did this: “UNITED NATIONS, July 25 (Reuters) - Fifteen armed men kidnapped, raped and beat six women working in a Bosnian nightclub before releasing all but one, the United Nations reported on Thursday.” ? Source: http://www.serbianna.com/news/07_28/10.shtml And read something which never appeared in BBC programmes reporting falsely the slaughter of hundreds of thousands of Kosovars by the Serbs: Source: http://www.srpska-mreza.com/library/facts/decapitation.html Peter Taylor Herts/UK Monday July 29, 2002 at 12:29 pm Walter...My pseudonym is an obvious problem to you, why you should be more interested in who I am rather than what I have to say is in this board is strange to me, I wonder just how many other contributors to this board have you verified and passed fit to post? Knowing who I am so I can be verified via some directory is pointless unless you intend to invite yourself round for Tea at some later date.// I post to this board because most of the contributors hold very different views to me, its much easier to learn in this kind of environment than a board where almost everyone shares similar thoughts, ideas and theories.// I would like to share your thoughts and knowledge and share mine with you all here, I would hope posters here would politely correct me when I am wrong and have the good grace to agree with me if I am right. Of course if its a club your running here where you dislike dissenting views I will leave.// Peter Taylor...I will respond to your points in a day or two when I have more time. Hardoz Nails UK Monday July 29, 2002 at 2:45 pm I am not sure if this will work but I’ll give it a go: Apologies if not. To form a new paragraph in your text place the following group of three characters immediately in front of the text where you want the new paragraph to begin:

Example. In your editor or editing prepare the text as follows. (You may separate the two sentences if it helps in your editing or text entry but this alone will not create a paragraph in the published text)

This is my first paragraph.

This is my second paragraph.

This is how it will appear when published on the web:

This is my first paragraph.

This is my second paragraph.
Peter Taylor
Herts/UK

- Monday July 29, 2002 at 2:50 pm
  Sorry: the three characters in order are left angle bracket (<),p and right angle bracket (>)
  Peter Taylor
  Herts/UK

- Monday July 29, 2002 at 4:53 pm
  The ICTY is not posting the transcript of the trial once again. They are stuck on July 4.

  LINKBard College or is it University does not have the footage of 25-26 July, they were not minor days.

  The media is silent again. Not even the incident between Croatia and Serbia on the Dabube is given any relevance compared with the Perejil Island incident defused by the diplomatic "intensity" of the Obelisk.
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Conn. USA

- Monday July 29, 2002 at 5:46 pm
  Never let us forget Germany’s role in this Balkans millennium disaster:

  Point&click
  Peter Taylor
  Herts/UK

- Monday July 29, 2002 at 9:00 pm
  RE: Bard College does not have the footage of 25-26 July. Bard's webmaster is on holiday at present - holidays in the US educational system do not match the ICTY's recess period. I had a quick look for you at Domovina Net's 'dumping ground' on the Bard server (the diskspace where our encoders/servers record sessions during the live broadcasts). If you copy/paste following URL's into your browser's Location Box, you can watch the English sessions July 25th: rtsp://hague.bard.edu/autoarchive/icty_env.200207250201.rm rtsp://hague.bard.edu/autoarchive/icty_env.200207251320.rm rtsp://hague.bard.edu/autoarchive/icty_env.200207251423.rm July 26th rtsp://hague.bard.edu/autoarchive/icty_env.200207261320.rm rtsp://hague.bard.edu/autoarchive/icty_env.200207261720.rm rtsp://hague.bard.edu/autoarchive/icty_env.200207261950.rm Please keep in mind that these files are raw dumps, i.e. with leading and trailing blank footage still in place. Frank Tiggelaar Tribunal Live Coordinator http://domovina.net http://radiodomovina.net
  Frank Tiggelaar
  Amsterdam
  Holland

- Monday July 29, 2002 at 9:00 pm
  RE: Bard College does not have the footage of 25-26 July. Bard's webmaster is on holiday at present - holidays in the US educational system do not match the ICTY's recess period. I had a quick look for you at Domovina Net's 'dumping ground' on the Bard server (the diskspace where our encoders/servers record sessions during the live broadcasts). If you copy/paste following URL's into your browser's Location Box, you can watch the English sessions July 25th: rtsp://hague.bard.edu/autoarchive/icty_env.200207250201.rm rtsp://hague.bard.edu/autoarchive/icty_env.200207251320.rm rtsp://hague.bard.edu/autoarchive/icty_env.200207251423.rm July 26th rtsp://hague.bard.edu/autoarchive/icty_env.200207261320.rm rtsp://hague.bard.edu/autoarchive/icty_env.200207261720.rm rtsp://hague.bard.edu/autoarchive/icty_env.200207261950.rm Please keep in mind that these files are raw dumps, i.e. with leading and trailing blank footage still in place. Frank Tiggelaar Tribunal Live Coordinator http://domovina.net http://radiodomovina.net
  Frank Tiggelaar
  Amsterdam
  Holland

- Tuesday July 30, 2002 at 2:46 am
  Nebojsa, the Kosovo question is as old as 1389. The persecution and expulsion of Slavs and other non Muslims has continued to this day despite all attempts at understanding. The Greek community in Southern Albania is treated as second class citizens in a region where they have lived as long as the Illyrians. The Slavs in Albania are not allowed to use their Slavic names. Albanians, on the other hand, in my own lifetime have been included in the cultural life of Yugoslavia while at the same time their culture was protected. The song and dance groups that toured North America included an equal representation of Kosovo Albanian culture. As was mentioned by others on this page Kosovo Albanians had the same rights as all other cultural groups in former Yugoslavia. Yes, you are right when you write that Siptars were seen by all other Yugoslavs as culturally inferior. The Shiptars that I encountered on my holiday visits to former Yugoslavia were mostly sellers of produce and laborers but that did not make them culturally inferior just economically poorer. For you to suggest that this in some way is Serbia’s fault or Milosevic’s fault is not accurate. To educate or feed even two children on a salary of a Yugoslav worker is hard enough, but feeding ten or even fifteen (the size of most Albanian families) would be impossible. The Albanians blamed the Yugoslavs for their poverty, even though; they used more tax dollars per capita than they contributed to the national budget. ### Hardoz, my problem with a pseudonym concerns my view of honesty. Use of a pseudonym is like receiving an unsigned letter. To me it represents a hidden agenda. You are right that Peter, Jari, Andre, and Gogol could very well be pseudonyms, however, I find their posts consistent and supported with evidence both when they agree and disagree with my point of view. It is not for me to determine who may post on this page. This page is not a club but the director does ask for your name and if you don’t want to give it that is up to you. I hope that I have been polite and if you feel that in some way I have offended you please accept my apologies. Enough said about pseudonyms I think? ### Peter your post concerning Bosnia is supported by the National Post. Last week the Post had an article on how young women are smuggled from Kosovo or through Kosovo and are employed as prostitutes in massage parlors in Western European countries. ### Gogol, I wonder how Spain can claim Gibraltar when they invade and claim an island a stone throw from the coast of Morocco? What incident are you referring to re; Serbia and Croatia on the Danube??? Milosevic Trial and his illness has been an issue for a long time. The press started to prepare a scenario that Milosevic was ill and suicidal. The press connected this to Milosevic’s family history of suicide. I was concerned that this was an orchestrated plot to kill him and claim that he committed suicide. His Canadian lawyer, Mr. Black from Victoria BC, was also concerned about this media interest. Several letters, by Mr. Black, were published in Canadian newspapers denying Milosevic’s depression. Mr. Black accused the press of promoting a possible assassination of Milosevic and he said that these reports were nothing more than a prelude to this self fulfilling prophecy by the press.
  Walter Trkla
  Kamloops
  BC Canada

- Tuesday July 30, 2002 at 4:08 am
  Let me come back to the question if Nato would have something against stopping the Milosevic trial. I don't think so. I do think that the biggest obstacle would be Human Rights Watch. Jared Israel has been quite right in pointing this out: Richard Dickers isn't just running the show, he is the show. (Richard Dickers is the Director of the International Justice Program at Human Rights Watch.) Just check what a hostile comment Dickers gave on Pierre-Richard Prosper's suggestion that ICTY should end its activities in a few years - http://www.hrw.org/press/2002/02/intjust0228.htm . (Prosper is the US ambassador-at-large for war crimes issues.)

  That piece of news on James Rubin was a revelation. Earlier, he has admitted that the KLA may have committed some terrorist acts, which is in line with the UN Security Council resolutions, but he denied that committing terrorist acts would make the KLA a terrorist organization!

  Frankly, I don't see the point in arguing whether Milosevic made the Serbs racists. I think Jared Israel has promised a reward for anyone who can find one racist comment in all of Milosevic's speeches. What we do have reason to believe, however, is that the Albanians are not above racism either, which has been demonstrated in this forum, too. Besides, in his book "About Kosova", Miftar Spahija (I hope I get the name right) argues that the Turks tried to get the Albanians to move to Turkey so the Turks would get some European genes in their genetic pool, so they could look less Asiatic! Also, in a lavishly illustrated book about Gypsies, which was translated from Serbocroat to English in 1989, the rapid growth of the Gypsy suburbs around Belgrade was attributed to the "ethnic cleansing" by the Albanians! So they you have it in a "Western" publication!

  On the other hand, the Albanians had their own autonomy in Kosovo. That doesn't mean that the Serbs had to get to know the Albanian language, only that the Albanians had to use their own language. Compare this to Vojvodina. The Serbs couldn't have got to know all the numerous languages spoken in Vojvodina. In this light, one should appreciate the fact that many Kosovo Serbs did learn the Albanian language, even if the standard Albanian language was changed somewhere along the road.

  Also, I don't see the relevance of arguing what language the "unknown language" refers to. Hasn't this witness been shown to be unreliable, anyway? If he isn't unreliable, he can't swear under oath that he heard some particular language when he isn't absolutely sure which language it was.

  Further, I don't see the point in arguing whether the 400 war criminals were mentioned in the Western press. Everybody understands that the Western press had no interest in reporting that. Why shouldn't the Serb press not be reliable, at least in this respect? In denying the reliability of the Serb press you are only getting ahead of your conclusion: Milosevic controlled the press and made it report non-existent war crimes trials.

  It was asked above whether the catastrophe is due to bad prosecution or a bad case. This is a valid point. But does there have to be a difference? I think that if the prosecution has no case, there are more professional ways to deal with the fact than torturing the witnesses. And I do think that the case has gone wrong because the prosecution is trying to make a case even when it has none.

  You can say that the trial is a fiasco but that it is the good intention that counts. After all, Milosevic was a nightmare. But if you admit that the trial is a fiasco because there is no case, what intention is so good as to justify the trial, let alone the conviction? Further, producing false witnesses by bribes (or worse) is no bagatelle, so don't treat it like one. (I think Mr Prosper is aware of what is going on when he accuses the tribunal of "corruption and mismanagement".)

  It was noted above that even if no bodies were dumped anywhere, there had to be civilian casualties. This is a valid point. Now that we have toyed with the figures, the number of civilian casualties does seem dubiously low. What is the Serbs' secret? Compare this to Israel. Even the Israeli Defence Force cannot avoid civilian casualties with all its deadly precision (I'm not talking about F-16's). The difference is that the Serbs went to extraordinary lengths to separate the combatants from their "human shield", i.e. civilians. I don't deny that the Israelis try to do that too. However, the complicating factor in Kosovo was the Nato bombing, which triggered the chain reaction of civilians fleeing from all violence. Once the Serb forces had "smoked" the civilians out, what place did the civilians have to go to? In a situation like this you can hardly blame anyone for acting irrationally. They ran to warn their neighbours, and the mass exodus was the result.

  I think the Serbs may have underestimated the panic factor pretty badly. No-one denies the mass exodus. What remains to be discussed is the reason.

  It seems safe to say at this point that there was no campaign of ethnic cleansing. However, the mass exodus has to be accounted for. I guess in a normal court the judges would weigh the undesirable result (exodus) to the greater evil that it was meant to avert (civilian casualties). However, the Statute of the ICTY doesn't mention this possibility, as far as I can see, and I think it is here the prosecutors should have struck, if they had wanted to uphold some semblance of integrity. Instead, the prosecution produced stories of atrocities (which were most likely individual incidents and may have been punished by the Serbs) and made us assume that the mass expulsion was an integral part in the whole repertoire of atrocities. This is the price you have to pay for producing a didactically valuable (=no substance) trial.
  Jari Nousiainen
  Finland

- Tuesday July 30, 2002 at 7:35 am
  Many thanks for the links to Frank Tiggelaar.

  I have to say, there was no need for a war in Kosovo between the KLA or Albanians, if that is what the KLA is all about which I really don't think so.

  I think in this occasion, in the case of Yugoslavia and the NATO, NATO as military representative of political-economical Euro-Atlantic bloc, conspiracy theories are perfectly justified and match perfectly well events in Yugoslavia, Europe and the USA.

  The US Congress fired the first salvo against Yugoslavia by in 1991 cutting financial access to credits and calling in the international debt to Yugoslavia.
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Conn. USA

- Tuesday July 30, 2002 at 8:46 am

  Peter Taylor surprised us with:

  [1.] Legal control of both the Help B92 website, and the Free B92 website were, and are, ultimately exercised by the board of KPN Telecom. The CEO at KPN Telecom is Wim Dik, a former Netherlands Secretary of State for Foreign Trade.

  [2.] More realistically, daily control of the content of the websites probably rests with Maurice Wesseling, director of XS4ALL Nederland BV, a subsidiary of KPN Telecom.

  Re 1. Wim Dik resigned as KPN's CEO more than a year ago. It is true that KPN owns xs4all's shares, but it is not true that KPN's board has legal control over xs4all's activities. By contract, this control rests solely with xs4all's management.

  Re 2. Maurice Wesseling left xs4all three years ago; he has been running the Bits of Freedom project since.

  The assumption that 'daily control of the content of the websites probably rests with Maurice Wesseling, director of XS4ALL Nederland BV' is simply wrong. xs4all allow their subscribers to publish anything they want save:

  1. material that violates copyrights

  2. the publication of pornography

  3. if a publication has been found illegal by a Dutch court

  In other words: individual subscribers are responsible for the content of their websites, not xs4all. This is also true for the initiatives xs4all sponsor, such as B92, FreeSerbia, Bits of Freedom, HIV-Net, Domovina Net, and others.

  Frank Tiggelaar

  <frankti@xs4all.nl>

  Frank Tiggelaar
  Amsterdam
  Holland

- Tuesday July 30, 2002 at 10:00 am
  RE: B92 in 2000. Source: Jared's interview with B92 staff. The full text of the interview can be read at http://emperors-clothes.com/interviews/emperor.htm >>>On May 17th, 2000 the Yugoslav government closed Studio B92, controlled by Vuk Draskovic's Serbian Renewal Party in Belgrade. The charge was that Studio B Television "has been calling for armed terrorist and criminal actions against the Republic of Serbia and its citizens." This charge was backed by a surprising source - two articles by geopolitical analyst Paul Treanor argued, with documentation, that Radio B292 was in fact controlled by powerful Western interests which aimed to bring Yugoslavia down. >>>Shortly after Studio B92 was closed, Jared tracked down B292 staff members at a temporary office in Belgrade. He interviewed two people, Gordan Paunovic, who ran B292's web page, and Sanda Savic, the news editor. The interviews were an attempt to shed light on the charges raised by Mr.Treanor, and related directly to the question: Was the Serbian opposition in fact funded by the U.S. government agencies (USAID), as well as private ones, such as the Soros Foundation? >>>The interview with Mr. Paunovic revealed that the radio station has been receiving funds from Soros’s Open Society Fund, Press Now, and the Royal Netherlands Foundation. There was evidence of serious funding by the U.S. government, as recorded by the July 29,1999 hearings on supporting the so-called independent forces in Serbia. The hearings took place the day after the Senate voted to provide 100 million dollars to the “independent” opposition, and include the following Senators Biden and Mr. Gelbard: >>>"SEN. BIDEN: "What can we do about inside Serbia? For example Draskovic continues to deny access to Studio B, which is supposedly, as I understand it -- he's not? >>>"MR. GELBARD: No, he's actually given access to Studio B -- excuse me; given access of Studio B to Radio B-92. And my understanding is that Radio B-92, one of the independent voices, has just reopened as Radio B-292. We want Draskovic to open up Studio B to the rest of the opposition, and that's a message that he'll be getting from us in the next few days." >>>Another vocal advocate of aiding the Serbian opposition, Robin Cook admitted at a press conference broadcast on CNN that the British government helped B92 to get satellite access in cooperation with BBC after the Yugoslav government's exclusion from Eurosat [the European Satellite TV link] that the B292 did not protest, contrary to previous assertions that they did. >>>The May 23, 2000 interview with Sanda Savic, News editor of Radio B292 further confirmed that they have been using BBC satellite within the framework of an “.. old arrangement. They give us more time on satellite now. Every day we are broadcasting two hours in the morning, two in the afternoon and two at the evening. Six hours a day.” Savic said that B292 has been trying to make some agreement with other radio stations, “not in Serbia”, on which subject she “couldn't tell more.” She could not satisfactorily answer the question as to who owns the station, giving highly contradictory answers. “No one” she claimed first, only to say next “ We are not private. We are not a city organization. We are just, I don't know. It's private owner.” “Who is the private owner?” the interviewer asked. “No one.” - followed her answer. “It's just a part of Association of Independent Electronic Media in Serbia. We don't have a legal status. We are just part of an Association.” In fact, the website that was set up when radio B292 came around is owned by KPB Telecom through its subsidiary XS4ALL NederlandBV. Sasa Milkovic, Editor in Chief of B292, who could have provided the sought information as to the legal status of the radio station, its ownership, and financial funding had been attempted to be contacted numerous times but he was always too busy to talk.
  Andre Huzsvai
  U.S.

- Tuesday July 30, 2002 at 11:48 am

  Walter Trkla surprised us with:

  [..]### Gogol, [..] I was concerned that this was an orchestrated plot to kill him and claim that he committed suicide. His Canadian lawyer, Mr. Black from Victoria BC, was also concerned about this media interest. Several letters, by Mr. Black, were published in Canadian newspapers denying Milosevic’s depression. Mr. Black accused the press of promoting a possible assassination of Milosevic and he said that these reports were nothing more than a prelude to this self fulfilling prophecy by the press.

  A few question spring to mind reading these paragraphs:

  1. Who would develop 'an orchestrated plot to kill him'?

  2. Since when is Mr. Black 'his Canadian lawyer'? As far as I am aware Milosevic has not appointed any lawyers because he considers the ICTY to be an 'illegal court' and hence sees no need to appoint defence counsel.

  3. On whose behalf does Mr. Black send letters to newspapers? He is not Milosevic's lawyer, so it cannot be on behalf of the accused himself. He is not in any way appointed by the tribunal - like the amici curiae - so he cannot speak/write on their behalf. All I can think of is that Mr. Black writes letters to the media in his capacity of chair of the Int'l C'tee to Defend Slobodan Milosevic, an organisation the accused wants nothing to do with. It seems therefore safe to assume that Mr. Black is mainly promoting the (publicity-)interests of Mr. Black with his letters-to-the-editor.

  As for the conspiracy-to-murder-Slobo theory: The ICTY Detention Unit chief Tim McFadden has an impeccable record in the Northern Ireland prison system. If you want to know more about how 'Scheveningen' operates under McFadden, then give a listen to the interview I had with him for RFE/RL's 'Tribunal iza scene' series some months before Milosevic arrived in the Hague. The raw material in English is at http://radiodomovina.net/mcfadden_eng.ram

  Radio Slobodna Evropa's edited items in BHS and Shqip are available from http://radiodomovina.net/010420_hh.ram and http://radiodomovina.net/mc_fadden.ram respectively

  Also of interest in this context is an interview with Outreach Programma coordinator Liam McDowall from the same series. http://radiodomovina.net/mcdowall.ram

Frank Tiggelaar

Frank Tiggelaar
Amsterdam
Holland

- Tuesday July 30, 2002 at 12:26 pm
  Andre

  It is on record the B92 is a Social Company, owned by its employee's. I assume its something like a Co-Op here in the UK.

  http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/B92june10.htm
  Hardoz Nails
  UK

- Tuesday July 30, 2002 at 12:31 pm
  Fran

  Is this Mr Black the same Mr Black who edits "The Emperors New Cloths"?

  http://emperors-clothes.com/editors.html
  Hardoz Nails
  UK

- Tuesday July 30, 2002 at 12:32 pm
  After watching the footage of 25 July I tend to believe the court is in no mood to stop the trial because Mr. Miloseivces health. One thing it was not in the footage and I assume it was said during close session -but then how does the piblic knows?-was the ordering to further medical examinations.

  The impression remains the trial is lead by Mr. Nice(NATO). I am sick and tired of hearing about this "international" tribunal when the court room is dominated by two Britishers and one British Colonia judge, in fact both May and Nice have had slips of, well freudian slips, about "this Crown Chamber" or "the Crown seeks"

  What Crown Prosecutor Mr. Nice(NATO) wants is for Mr. Milosevic to be effectively shut up and have him represented by council appointed by the Crown Chamber. Presumably by some one who does not know much about British common law, the least common law in the World, and that the Saxon inspired rules of this ICTY is made of.

  I wonder what South Korean Law is like?
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Conn. USA

- Tuesday July 30, 2002 at 12:33 pm
  Peter Taylor

  I think Frank has answerd your points re B92

  Thanks for the formatting tips
  Hardoz Nails
  UK

- Tuesday July 30, 2002 at 3:07 pm
  Frank your question “Who would develop an orchestrated plot to kill him? The same people who tried to kill him in his home in Belgrade. The same people who killed over two thousand innocent women and children in Serbia. The same people who practiced environmental terrorism that is threatening the Danube watershed and future generations of Serbian children due to depleted uranium. The same people who bombed Serbian economic infrastructure and causes billions in damage. The same people who wanted to bomb the so called “dancing bridge” into the Sava River just to teach the Serbs a lesson. The same people who sent a rocket into the TV complex in Belgrade. The same people who on the daily basis starve thousands of Iraqi children because of trade embargos. You know very well who those people are. They sit in government offices in London, Berlin, Washington, and Ottawa and so on while some others are on a lecture tour promoting their name in history. Mr. Black is a member of the International Committee to Defend Mr. Milosevic. This committee consists of over two hundred intellectual’s world wide. Mr. Black is a member of this committee. Mr. Black on several occasions attempted to meet with Mr. Milosevic at Mr. Milosevic’s request. The Tribunal refused this request. Mr. Black has met with Milosevic’s defense team in Belgrade and Mrs. Milosevic has requested Mr. Black’s help in the defense of her husband. The fact that Mr. Milosevic does not recognize the Tribunal nor does he recognize the amici curiae has not stopped the Tribunal from imposing their will on him. The Tribunal is a legal farce. Leading lawyers in Canada (Greenspan from Toronto) and the United States (Alan Dershowitz Harvard Law School professor) have stated that this Tribunal is a lynching. The Tribunal has broken every rule of due process and its main aim is to exonerate NATO. The conspiracy to murder Mr. Milosevic is not far fetched. Several detainees have died in your so called former Nazi retreat. You draw attention to Nr. McFadden’s impeccable record in the Irish prison system. Many members of the resistance movement in North Ireland have met their end in these so called humanitarian detention centers. Many inmates have spent years in British jails on trumped up charges. Many suspected IRA members have been eliminated by the British Special Forces as suspected members of the IRA. The motto kill first ask questions later doesn’t speak very well of innocent until proven guilty. My point here is that those who support democratic principles should not violate them when it serves their interests.
  Walter Trkla
  Kamloops
  BC Canada

- Tuesday July 30, 2002 at 3:35 pm
  Frank Tiggelaar, has Radio Free Europe reported on Appendix B of the Rambouillet Treaty ... and how we forced the war on the Serbs? Or are you only part of our blindly self-righteous propaganda machine propelling us into World War 3?
  Have you read the "archived discussion" here?
  I used a LOT of RFE research in my own work on the Katyn Massacre, which I believe was the Silver (truth) Bullet which brought down the Soviet regime ... but what have we done with our victory?
  Before the Chinese or any other great power can trust us with the strategic hegemony our anti-missile technology can give us, they must be able to believe that we will use our domination for truth and justice in the world ... for the common good ... not just for ourselves. Otherwise, they will want to use the weapons they have while they still can.
  Milosevic can hang, for all I care, if he's guilty of knowingly permitting Kosovo atrocities; but Clinton, Albright, et al started this unnecessary, war crime war in the first place and should be right there alongside him, or we have mocked and betrayed what we promised the world.
  Do you believe in Lincoln's "With malice toward none and justice for all," Frank? Will RFE expose Appendix B and the mafias' Kosovo operations?

  (My Katyn thesis, which includes key RFE publications, can be read via my webpage at http://LCoat.tripod.com/index.htm )
  Lou Coatney
  Macomb
  Illinois USA

- Tuesday July 30, 2002 at 5:03 pm
  Mr Nails: Welcome to the “club” but not so fast:

  I take it on trust that I am guilty of the mistakes pointed out by Frank Tiggelaar. This was by quoting from a report, which was obviously, now, out of date: it is not always easy to detect the date of Internet postings. Possibly too this report contained errors.

  However none of these errors alter the fundamental point I was making that B92 has strong links with the West and thus “toes the party line”. Especially in view of Andre’s additional information posted above.

  I have told you of my agenda with which you obviously disagree: may we know your agenda?

  So that you are in no doubt let me repeat my cause again. Prime Minister Blair came to power as a former Christian, pacifist and CND campaigner. Before September 11 Blair acting as Nato’s ‘moral’ leader supported terror campaigns in Kosovo by the KLA including elements of the Mujahedeen and al-Qaeda. After he espouses Bush’s view that global terrorists and those who support them are to be hunted down relentlessly: but he still says and does nothing about the continuing terrorism in Kosovo.

  Before September 11 Blair sanctioned the flying of bombs (cruise missiles) into public buildings in Belgrade. After Blair condemned the flying of bombs into public buildings a heinous act. Blair sanctioned a wicked and cowardly action when the RAF dropped cluster bombs from three miles high hitting hospitals, schools and housing estates. The feeble excuse that manifestly empty barracks had been built by the Serbs in residential areas will not impress mangled Brits if the growing superpower China one day decides to drop cluster bombs on Kensington barracks.

  Blair claimed Nato’s action was to prevent ethnic cleansing but it has manifestly caused ethnic cleansing. There are so many examples of unprincipled behaviour, massive lies concerning the Serbian security forces, massive lies of omission concerning KLA terror all broadcast or omitted by a compliant media … I could go on and on. There are two principles that statesmen ignore at their peril. Never support terrorists. Never attack a non-threatening sovereign state.

  This court the ICTY is not a court of justice. The unfair treatment of Milosevic, the bias against Serbs, the lack of sanctions for perjury, the demonstrable lack of the many of the normal principles of a court of justice. The unjust purpose or the ICTY is obvious as has been demonstrated many times on this board.

  In short my claim is that Mr Blair needs to be called to account for his actions and the ICTY needs to be reconstituted on the principles of justice.

  Sadly I believe this forum is comparable to Speakers’ Corner in Hyde Park. It is tolerated as long as it remains ineffective. Appeals to mathematicians, lawyers, journalists, pathologists and other professionals have evoked no response. But as Churchill used to say we’ll KBO.

  No doubt everyone posting here has their own agenda, but with the exception of a very few occasional rednecks and psychopaths, the debate has been conducted in an honest and friendly manner.
  Peter Taylor
  Herts/UK

- Tuesday July 30, 2002 at 5:50 pm
  Fo more on the testimony of the prime key insider prosecution witness Markovic read:

  http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/723990/posts
  Peter Varavejke
  Belgium

- Tuesday July 30, 2002 at 9:52 pm
  Peter Taylor

  Thanks for the friendly post

  My agenda?

  Can't say I have any political agenda, I think of myself as apolitical though I have a dislike of both the far right and the far left.To be honest I've never categorised myself

  I'm no intellectual, in fact I have a deep distrust of intellectuals, I think it come from my farther being a Barrister, but that's another story.

  With regard to the discussion topic I am in agreement with many here that the Serbian people have been misrepresented to the world however I do believe Molosevic guilty as charged. Don't ask me to explain my belief, its visceral.

  I'm suspicious of most of Milosevic's support/Nato critics as the balk of this IMO comes from the political left (old fashioned socialists, communists and Marxists) traditional enemies of Nato or the NWO if you will.

  If I acknowledge, which I do, that much of what comes out in the western(read NWO) media is biased or misleading then I must also acknowledge that much of what comes from the "other" media is just as tainted. Take "The Emperors New Clothes" Christopher Black and Jared Israel, the self styled defenders of Milosevic (http://www.predsednikmilosevic.com/) how credible can ENC be as a real news site given their declered aim to free Milosevic? However IMO it is very effective as a mouth piece for various Free Slobo,bash Nato,NWO and anti-globalisation pressure groups.

  Having read your post I can see your no globalist, I think I have very real leanings towards globalisation and many forms of global governance (not US led) so yes I support the International CTY in name, but not in its current form, unfortunately we must go through the painful learning process of getting it right, do the huge failings of Del Pontes case make Milosevic not guilty? NO! but in the rush to criticise, point out mistakes and score political points I fear this has become a side issue.

  As a supporter of global governance I must support the view that Blair et al should answer the allegations made against them in a court of law but, I won't be blinded by this demands' lack of progress as its used by those who seek to justify Milosevic's release(its a playground argument), the topic here is Milosevic and his trial, the question, will it be fair? No I don't think so, but then again I don't think there is such a thing as a fair trial, I do however believe in justice (imperfect in all its forms) it is this that I hope for, even if it proves me wrong.

  I admit I have a problem with your approach re western media, I have tried to fathom by what yard stick do you measure its lack of ethics, hence my pointing out that no other (omitted in my post) *available to me* media apart from Tanjug reported the story of the 9 Serb victims, a simple search using "Dr. Slavisa Dobricanin" returned no results that I could find in respect to this item, I assumed the name would be spelt the same in most language's or a least show up on any English language site of the "foreign media", it did however show up with ref. to Racak in many non western sites.

  The effectiveness of this forum should not be underestimated, even if it were closed we would find another in which to communicate and with communication we find common ground.

  Well Peter, there its is, my rambling thoughts at 2:30am, I'll not proof read this before posting (sorry but I think it'll e more honest) therefore some of it may not make complete sense and may well contain contradictions, but I think it will give you a flavour of what I'm about and whether or not I have a secret agenda.

  Well I'm off to Millbank now and later I've got to cast an eye over tomorrow's BBC lunch time news script ;)

  P.S. I have written to B92 for their stance on Soros and the other points you raised, I'll not hold my breath.
  Hardoz Nails
  UK

- Wednesday July 31, 2002 at 12:50 am
  Regarding the questions raised by Frank Tiggelaar: He asks, "Who would develop 'an orchestrated plot to kill' Milosevic?' That would be The Hague "tribunal". Does this sound extreme? Read Prof. Francisco Gil-White's article concerning the supposed suicide of Slavko Dokmanovic while in custody at The Hague. It is entitled "MURDER IN THE HAGUE" and can be read at http://www.psych.upenn.edu/~fjgil/Dokmanovic.htm Considering what NATO has done to Yugoslavia, which is much worse than killing one man, even a leader of courage and intelligence; considering that NATO spokesperson Jamie Shea said NATO controls the tribunal (see "Official Statements Prove Hague 'Tribunal' Belongs to NATO" at http://emperors-clothes.com/docs/h-list.htm ); and considering that the 'trial' is going so badly that virtually all TV coverage has been eliminated - therefore the possibility that NATO (a violently expansionist military organization that sponsors the most ruthless terrorists, e.g. the Kosovo Liberation Army) would kill this thorn in their side is not absurd. Would that it were absurd. 2. Tiggelaar says, "Since when is Mr. Black 'his Canadian lawyer'? As far as I am aware Milosevic has not appointed any lawyers." Mr. Tiggellaar's awareness is limited. Mr. Milosevic refuses to appoint Council *within* NATO's kangaroo court, in which he is a kidnap victim. By the way, this "kidnap victim" stuff is not hyperbole. The facts are outlined in "THE TREASON OF KOSTUNICA" at www.emperors-clothes.com/analysis/treas.htm Mr. Milosevic requested that the ICDSM - his authorized support group - set up a Lawyers committee 1) to advise him 2) to take legal actions outside the Tribunal and 3) to publicize the illegality of the case. The lawyers have worked very hard, though in truth none of us at the ICDSM have done enough. The crimes of the West against Yugoslavia go beyond tragedy and really, those of us in the West who are trying to set things right will never do enough. Chris Black, who has several years' experience at the Rwanda "tribunal," has given a few dozen press conferences as head of the Lawyers Group. . I am a vice-chairman of the ICDSM, so I am not speculating when I say that we and our Lawyers sub-group work directly with Mr. Milosevic and also with his aides. By the way, we are not paid. (We do raise money on our own, but so far this has lagged way behind out-of-pocket expenses, so we appreciate any help from supporters!) We have a website - www.icdsm.org - where one can noodle around and find out more. By the way, the Lawyers Committee has sued the Dutch government representing Mr. Milosevic. 3. Mr. Tiggelaar suggests that Black must be speaking: "in his capacity of chair of the Int'l C'tee to Defend Slobodan Milosevic, an organisation the accused wants nothing to do with." Black is not Chairman of the ICDSM; he is head of its Lawyer's group; and the group was set up at Milosevic's request. I have spoken with Mr. Milsoevic twice by phone. He asked me to convey his warmest thanks to all of you who work without reward or even recognition to feret out the truth and inform Westerners about Yugoslavia. He says you are proof that truth can't be silenced. You see, he does not blame us all. The Serbs have a very big heart. Someone asked if Chris is on the editorial board of Emperor's Clothes, at www.tenc.net I am proud to say, he is. Jared Israel Editor, Emperor's Clothes www.tenc.net
  Jared Israel
  MA, USA

- Wednesday July 31, 2002 at 3:41 am
  I think Hardoz put the finger on something very important, although I disagree with him completely. He asked: "Do the huge failings of Del Pontes case make Milosevic not guilty? NO!" Before that, he said: "Unfortunately we must go through the painful learning process of getting it right."

  Of course the failings of Del Ponte "make" Milosevic "not guilty"! Especially when it is agreed that the failings are due to the lack of a case. That is called due process. But suppose this trial is a learning process, what have we learned? That the rules of a due process should be sidestepped to get at the "truth"? You admit you don't think there is such thing as a fair trial. So obviously we are meant to learn nothing about the concept of a fair trial. What are we supposed to "learn", then?

  Then he went on: "But in the rush to criticise, point out mistakes and score political points I fear this has become a side issue." I don't know how he can defend the freedom of Western media, when he criticizes us for "criticizing" even on this forum! And he can't deny the fact that there is a near-complete news blackout in the Western media. He mentions expressly the slanted picture of the Serbs the media conveys. On the other hand, he wonders how someone else can suggest that the Western media is unethical! Maybe he uses his own "playground argument" by pointing out that the Serb media under Milosevic must have been even worse.

  I have to go along with Walter. This is exactly what you get when someone uses a pseudonym. Now we are kept secong-guessing if he has an agenda, and if he does, if he his agenda is political, and if it is, what it is. And now he keeps second-guessing our agendas. Now we know that he does something for the BBC, which would explain some of the things he says, etc.

  This is getting childish. You asked us to tell you to go, if you're not welcome. I think you should go. If you don't want to explain why you think Milosevic is guilty as charged, because it is "visceral", as you say, I think you are just wasting our time.

  Thanks for the Free Republic article on Rade Markovic to keep this discussion on track. I have had time to read it only half-way through because of the latest disruption.

  I think here you have another of those "playground arguments" again. Just because someone thinks Milosevic is guilty as charged, although he cannot explain why because it is visceral, this somehow excuses bribing and torturing witnesses.

  I think Markovic knows a thing or two about torture, so he wouldn't make the allegations lightly. If the tribunal would like to know if he was tortured, I think they could find it out, but I also think the tribunal prefers not to know.

  Maybe it is some kind of excuse to these quasi-globalists that this is done under the auspices of an organization called Human Rights Watch. Those who have read Orwell should know better (or no, don't tell me Orwell was a socialist).

  We have speculated on some politicians' love affair with the Koran. Just a reminder: Hitler said Islam was the only religion he could respect.
  Jari Nousiainen
  Finland

- Wednesday July 31, 2002 at 4:41 am
  Could Mr BBC point out which forum he has in mind when he says that we will find another forum if this one is closed down (which he might not object to)? I haven't visited the similar forum on the BBC website (I get too much of the BBC crap anyway), but from what we have been told here, it wasclosed down, so maybe Mr BBC Nails knows what he's talking about (as to the closing down part, that is). Maybe he would give us an explanation why it was closed down, or is it too much to ask that he start making sense?
  Ramses II
  Finland

- Wednesday July 31, 2002 at 6:40 am
  Jari

  You ask "What are we supposed to "learn", then?" I'd say that ad hoc international tribunals don't work, have we improved the idea with the ICC?

  You asked"On the other hand, he wonders how someone else can suggest that the Western media is unethical!" I say I did not say the western media was ethical, but rather intended to imply it as "unethical" as other media

  I say "If I acknowledge, which I do, that much of what comes out in the western(read NWO) media is biased or misleading then I must also acknowledge that much of what comes from the "other" media is just as tainted." You read this as "the Serb media under Milosevic must have been even worse" How do you arrive at this? My ref. to the BBC and Millbank was a tongue in cheek comment to Peter Taylor, who had earlier suggested I was either a New Labour spin doctor or BBC thought policeman, intended to be a moment of brevity, no truth in it.

  Where did I specifically excuse bribery and torture of anyone? Though I must admit our legal systems are rife with it, i.e.. plead guilty and you'll receive a lesser sentence and what's keeping people locked-up (remanded in the UK) prior to court but torture?

  Yes my thoughts on Milosevics guilt are visceral, a gut feeling is often the way people start along a learning process, at the end of that process they may or may not prove themselves right.
  Hardoz Nails
  UK

- Wednesday July 31, 2002 at 7:17 am
  Why did NATO not seek approval from the United Nations Security Council to launch a military operation against a member nation?

  You, supporters of NATO, don't you know that the role and mission of the Security Council is to avoid and to stop war?

  Why was that fact not denounced by the so called free and democratic press, like the "Washington Post", "The NY Times", "The Times" of London" and literary hundreds of world newspapers at the service of the same interests, and why should "The Emper. w/C" be considered a match for the whole of that venal and powerful press?

  Look into the US Congressional Record and you find the bases for the policies which ended destroying Yugoslavia, wheter Socialist or democratic, pro-western or non- aligned, destroying the very essence of the Union of the Southern Slavs so that "divide and rule" satisfies the Obelisk and other capitals.

  In politics like in many other things in life there is no middle!
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Conn. USA

- Wednesday July 31, 2002 at 7:21 am
  Ad hoc international tribunals don't work, so a permanent court will? Because it won't adhere to a fair trial? And is not a fair trial intended to prevent cases of torture and bribery, so don't ask where you excuse ("specifically") bribery and torture. So are you now saying that the Serb media was notworse than the Western media, which is only "as" unethical as other media?

  Yes, you are speaking tongue in cheek. At least for the part that you will leave if requested. You won't. I think you are becoming complete waste of time.

  Don't flatter yourself with the idea you have more guts than brains. I think you have neither. At least you have the guts to admit that you are no intellectual, but is that an excuse for not using your brain? I guess the conviction of Milosevic will be a pretty visceral thing, so at least you're right there.

  And the story that "takes the biscuit" (which is an expression I learned from Ashdown's testimony): Who would organize a plot to kill Milosevic? You don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure that out. I had been on this planet and not with the trekies, you might remember that Nato bombed intentionally Milosevic's house. When the bomb didn't kill him, they said they were just kidding. And don't forget the reports that the French tried to assassinate Milosevic. It is easy to forget things, especially when you are in denial that they ever happened. Ramses is very displeased with this.
  Ramses II
  Finland

- Wednesday July 31, 2002 at 7:57 am
  Thank you Jared for the information on Mr. Black’s role with the Lawyer’s committee that he represents. The article on Slavko Dokmanovic that you pointed out is a must read. A comment for Mr. Hardoz: Governments have often provoked violence to serve their own ends and they have often used assassination when other methods of elimination were closed to them or not working as they envisioned. Governments (In this case governments of NATO countries) may find it necessary to eliminate Milosevic. Trials and prison sentences are time-consuming and uncertain. Moreover, they will permit the victim some favorable opportunities to speak.I would like to see what Mr. Milosevic has to say when he presents his witnesses or if he gets a chance to present at all. I will be as critical of his witnesses as I have been of the prosecution witnesses who in most cases perjured themselves.
  Walter Trkla
  Kamloops
  BC Canada

- Wednesday July 31, 2002 at 8:17 am
  "Thanks Gogol, good points.

  Why did NATO not seek approval from the United Nations Security Council to launch a military operation against a member nation? "

  From what I've read, because it would not get it.

  "You, supporters of NATO, don't you know that the role and mission of the Security Council is to avoid and to stop war?"

  I am aware of this fact, I also aware that their ultimate recourse to prevent war is war

  "Why was that fact not denounced by the so called free and democratic press, like the "Washington Post", "The NY Times", "The Times" of London" and literary hundreds of world newspapers at the service of the same interests, and why should "The Emper. w/C" be considered a match for the whole of that venal and powerful press?"

  A myriad of reasons and all of them wrong. I used the ENC as an example of the "other" media not to show it as an equal to western Media. I guess what I'm trying to convey is that I have never read, watched or heard an unbiased media(re Yu) all media ignore certain aspects of a story/event, the western media being the more prolific, I contend that the "other" media's bias slips by us because of this, it points out the western bias, who points out its bias? After all what we all want from the media is the truth not what we want to hear, is it not?

  "Look into the US Congressional Record and you find the bases for the policies which ended destroying Yugoslavia, wheter Socialist or democratic, pro-western or non- aligned, destroying the very essence of the Union of the Southern Slavs so that "divide and rule" satisfies the Obelisk and other capitals."

  Is there a URL, preferably with out "political" commentary for the records in question?

  "In politics like in many other things in life there is no middle!"

  So where do the radicals from each wing of politics to find common ground?
  Hardoz Nails
  UK

- Wednesday July 31, 2002 at 8:26 am
  Walter

  Assassination has been used by many Governments and I agree your theory holds water but in a high profile case like this I think it improbable. I too eagerly await the defence witness's. Do you think he'll call Blair, Clinton et al and if so will he be doing a Del Ponte in doing so?
  Hardoz Nails
  UK

- Wednesday July 31, 2002 at 8:53 am
  The paths to Hell are paved with good intentions. Mr Nails: You are correct in your assumption that I am no ‘globalist’: If this means a policy of “The end justifies the means” is substituted for time honoured principles of international conduct. If this means trampling over the principles of justice. If this means forcing through policies at a cataclysmic rate. :-)This is an international forum: I advise you to use a ‘smiley’ as prefixed to this sentence when you write “tongue in cheek”. :-)I can mangle a metaphor with best of them. To switch off Bold text you need to append the following four characters (<), (/), (b) and (>).
  Peter Taylor
  Herts/UK

- Wednesday July 31, 2002 at 9:17 am
  Jared et al

  I have read that in signing Dayton Milosevic accepted the legality of the ICTY, is this true, and if so how can he now claim it illegal? Do you have an article(ENC) that covers this apparent 1995 acceptance of the ICTY Vs the current view he and you hold?
  Hardoz Nails
  UK

- Wednesday July 31, 2002 at 9:26 am
  The Illegality of the ICTY was dealt with on this forum way back in April.

  Let's not go over it again.

  Read the posts and URL's given at that time.
  Peter Taylor
  Hertfordshire

- Wednesday July 31, 2002 at 9:39 am
  In his yesterday's post Hardoz ”the Barrister” (I like it a LOT more than “Nails”) is quite wrong in asserting that the criticism of the NATO policies and war in the Balkans, the globalist expansionism, and the current pseudo-legal circus at The Hague comes mainly from leftist and Marxist quarters. In fact, many people agreeing on the above issues in opposition to the handiwork of the Imperial Master Nation and to Those Who Know Best would otherwise disagree on great many more matters. Yet they locked arms at anti-war rallies in Boston, New York, and Washington during NATO’s bombing of Yugoslavia. Hardoz ”the Barrister” may not be familiar with the fine nuances of the current U.S. political landscape dominated by the two-party cartel that usurped all political and financial power, but conservative Libertarians were on the forefront of the opposition of the New World Order’s Diktat to the remaining havens of sovereign and independent nation-states, Yugoslavia among them. Rockford Institute, the bastion of “paleo-conservatism”, the Lord Byron Foundation for Balkan Studies, “Chronicles - the Magazine of American Culture” - hardly “leftists” all have been consistent and principled opponents of the U.S. role in the Balkans. Pat Buchanan, not a Marxist by any stretch of imagination, a known and eloquent proponent of non-interventionism (mocked as “isolationist”) was the ONLY U.S. political figure in the 1990s who called the NATO war on Yugoslavia “illegal.” And when you have Pat Buchanan and Noam Chomsky agreeing on something it ought to give you a pause, for it’s not a flake matter that would prompt them to share a stage. As someone who came not from the Left, I gave up on labels once the rather powerful issue of injustice done to Yugoslavia brought me together with those who came from the opposite corner, and find them to be more honest, dedicated, decent, and reliable folks then most of the over-comfortable, intellectually lazy, brainwashed rich proletarians who were trained by the media in the service of the political cartel not to distinguish between good and evil, and truth and lie any more. The fact that Milosevic doesn’t recognize the court and refuses a lawyer, does not render Chris Black a non-entity and a subhuman to poke fun of. I don’t know anything about Chris Black’s political persuasion, but it’s clear to me that this “self-styled Milosevic defender” risks a lot and does not gain anything by battling the hydra of disinformation with a few other associates on a shoestring budget. As for the Boston-based Jared Israel whom I have a good fortune and a distinct honor to personally know - he a tireless pursuer of truth, a devoted crusader against media lies, one who always says what he means and always means what he says, a truly inquisitive mind who knows his facts cold, and who can hold the whole U.S. media in check by himself. I have nothing but total respect for him - even if he may be a leftist - which I do not know, nor does it matter any more. P.S.Don’t barristers always check what they put in writing? - yesterday's was rather incoherent, and I did not get most of it, even though I read it three times.
  Andre Huzsvai
  U.S.

- Wednesday July 31, 2002 at 9:41 am
  Back to reality

  Six explosions damage five Serb houses and injure two US soldiers in Kosovo.

  Islamic terror and ethnic cleansing continues unabated in Kosovo while Blair continues to ignore it.

  Source:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/decani/message/68469 Point&ClickHere
  Peter Taylor
  Herts/UK

- Wednesday July 31, 2002 at 10:16 am

  For an insight into Blair's new Islamic chums in the Balkans: Chums who are about to unveil a statue of him in Pristina for lending them his airforce: Read the URL below.

  This is Blairs preferred Culture. One for which he decapitated Serbian priests, blew the arms and legs off womem and children (including ethnic Albanians) with his cluster bombs.

  Source: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/decani/message/68474
  Point&ClickHere
  Peter Taylor
  Herts/UK

- Wednesday July 31, 2002 at 10:23 am

  > "Why did NATO not seek approval from the United Nations Security Council to launch a military operation against a member nation? " From what I've read, because it would not get it.

  Interesting reason: can you imagine any legal system in the World operating on this principle? That if the Law is an obstacle, the Law is ignored?

  This you could argue is nothing new and now once again we are witness to it all, under a new crusade, the one on terrorism, or bombing once again Iraq whithout UN approval.

  You can't have it both ways, either you live within the Law or you're outlawed. Can't get away with murder and pretend your kangaroo court is holly.

  Justice and Law can't be negotiable by definition.
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Conn. USA

- Wednesday July 31, 2002 at 10:44 am
  I shall take no further part in this forum as I don't feel welcome here, so much for free speech. I would like to thank Peter Taylor, Walter Trkla and Gogol Charlemagne for their patience,good manners and willingness to enter into dialogue with me. These people I regard as good and honest, and extremely persuasive, but this is tempered by the attitude of others here and if this to be the face of the anti-NWO political option I'll stick with the devil I know. Peter, Walter and Gogol my mother used to say "manners maketh the man" and you are indeed men worthy of listening to.

  Thank you and good bye.
  Hardoz Nails
  UK

- Wednesday July 31, 2002 at 11:24 am
  Hardoz, I'm sorry that you feel that you are being forced out - I never had any problem having ANYONE in forums like this: dissent is good for the dynamics of opinion exchange. But you are always welcome back under a different alias - we won't know. Yours,
  Andre Huzsvai
  U.S.

- Wednesday July 31, 2002 at 11:38 am
  Hardoz “High profile case hard to hide” : Remember Kennedy but we know he was killed by the Mafia or maybe Castro did it or Lee Harvey Oswald and the KGB did it or could it be that Jacqueline did it because she was angry at his dalliances. #### Who should Milosevic call as witnesses - Andre has posted a good list above. Blair would be a good start followed by Clinton. The first question to Clinton should be “Define sex please?” He should also call Castro, Arafat and Saddam. I am serious about the last three they would be a great source of SIMILAR-FACT EVIDENCE also as experts they could be called to give EVIDENCE OF OPPENION. I am sure even Mr. May would agree to their expertise. I am sure that they would have many facts to validate their opinions. #### Carla has not shot herself in the foot. She is doing as well as she can with what is given to her. She will be rewarded just as Louis Arbour was rewarded. The immense resource at Carla’s disposal vs. what is available to Milosevic and she produces one perjurer after another tells you something about her case. If Milosevic calls similar witnesses he will shoot himself in the foot. He needs to call former Canadian ambassador to Yugoslavia (Name escapes me now), General Louis McKenzie, Uncle Tom Kofi Annan, Butros Butros Gali, and many others who have first hand knowledge on why the international community conspired to break up Yugoslavia.
  Walter Trkla
  Kamloops
  BC Canada

- Wednesday July 31, 2002 at 12:44 pm
  Ambassador James Bisset maybe. http://www.iacenter.org/warcrime/staylor.htm
  Ian Davis
  Waterloo
  Canada

- Wednesday July 31, 2002 at 2:42 pm
  This is just in: Courtesy of Rick Rozoff AFP Thursday August 1, 12:50 AM Bosnian presidential candidate jailed for war crimes [Not mentioned in this report is the fact that Fikret Abdic won the most votes in Bosnia's first presidental election, only to have the office wrested from him by Alijah Izetbegovic, theocrat, WW II era nazi collaborator and the West's man in Sarajevo. Abdic is a federalist, whose West Bosnia was a model of multi-ethnic, mutli-confessional cooperation - everything the US and its NATO allies were pontificating about at the time and everything they helped destroy in both Bosnia and Croatia. The peaceful republic was invaded and destroyed by the US-supported Izetbegovic regime, with what brutality and bloodletting we all know. But it's not Alijah Izetbegovic and his monstrous henchman Nasir Oric who are charged by the so-called ICTY with war crimes - but the victim of such crimes. Again. - R.R.] A Croatian court sentenced a Bosnian Muslim candidate in October presidential polls in Bosnia to a maximum 20-year jail term for war crimes committed during the Bosnian war. Fikret Abdic was found guilty of "war crimes against the civilian population and prisoners of war" committed around the northwestern Bosnian town of Bihac during the country's 1992-95 war. He was sentenced by a court in the central Croatian town of Karlovac. Abdic was sentenced in connection with the deaths of 121 civilians and three prisoners of war and the wounding of more than 400 civilians in the Bihac region. Under Croatian law, Abdic can appeal the verdict and is entitled to pursue his candidacy for a seat in Bosnia's tripartite presidency until all appeals have been exhausted, electoral officials said. The head of Bosnia's election commission, Lidija Korac, told AFP that only those who have received "final, unappealable judgements," are banned from running in the elections. Abdic can therefore "run for the presidency until the judgment is confirmed by the Croatian Supreme Court," she said, and will remain on the candidates' list until the court makes its ruling. Abdic's chances of winning the support of the majority of the Muslim electorate are rated at close to zero. Abdic's 20-year jail term reflected his senior position, Judge Jasminka Jerinic-Musnjak said, handing down the sentence. The court wanted the sentence to reflect the court's condemnation of war crimes and "notably those committed by those who held top positions in power." During Bosnia's 1992-95 war, Abdic created and headed an "Autonomous Region of West Bosnia" while his militia fought Bosnia's mainly Muslim army. He fled to Croatia in 1995 following his military defeat. Sarajevo had repeatedly asked Zagreb to extradite him for trial before a Bosnian court but the case was eventually handed over to Croatia following an legal cooperation agreement between the two countries. Abdic, known as "Babo" (Papa) by his followers, pleaded not guilty at his trial, repeatedly describing the trial as a "rigged political process." A businessman who made millions in the pre-war communist era, he was the most popular Muslim politician before he split with former Muslim leader Alija Izetbegovic.
  Andre Huzsvai
  U.S.

- Wednesday July 31, 2002 at 6:10 pm
  Wednesday July 17, 2002 at 3:21 am

  " We are conducting this conversation on an American website. This is what I meant when I said that this may be all that is left of the fairness of the trial. I think that should answer Lou's criticisms, if there were any. Try to find something similar in Europe.

  Jari Nousiainen Finland "

  - Well, there is something similar in Europe - the Guardian Talk Forums, and you have a much deserved fan there who sometimes reposts your stuff there.

  - The most appropriate thread is called "KosovO and the Balkans" (Milosevic 'Trial' threads seem not to last long - albeit I havan't quite yet decided that's not because the Guardian Servers are somewhat flaky - and do annoyingly crash more often than they should - on their 'return' there are often missing threads.)

  - Why don't you go over there and have a look sometime; it's too easy for you here ... most folks (including me) agree with you ... it's a bit different on the Gu.

  - Hey you'll walk all over them though; hell, if I can it's certain you can!

  ;-) _
  Dennis Revell
  USA.

- Wednesday July 31, 2002 at 6:24 pm

  DO things really change?

  In the X century or there abouts, the Germans wanted to Christianise the Slavs tribes settled between the river Elbe and Oder. How could those people be trusted if they were not Christians? Much blood letting followed, in fact this policy of "trust" conviced to nascent Poles to embrace Christianity to avoid death.

  NATO's expansion East is a precondition for investment, trust and all the good things the Western democracies will "delivery", just a matter of "trust" isn't it?
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Conn. USA

- Wednesday July 31, 2002 at 6:56 pm
  Ian thank you for the address and the name of the former Canadian ambassador to Yugoslavia James Bisset . Unfortunately the government wants him silenced and the media ignores him because he speaks from experience. There are many web pages throughout former Yugoslavia where discussions “diskusije” are allowed. Of course you need to speak Serbo-Croat. For example www.trebinje.com is a great site and it will publish in English..
  Walter Trkla
  Kamloops BC
  Canada

- Wednesday July 31, 2002 at 9:34 pm
  Dennis -- do you have a URL for the guardian talk forum. I have become most disillusioned with the guardian.. consider for example http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,764030,00.html

  We are told Milosevic has a bad heart; is trying the judges patience; it's another routine day when the day was far from routine. We are told that Milosevic glowering from the dock, is flanked as ever by two burly uniformed UN guards. We are then given statements by Richard Dicker, who as observer for Human Rights Watch, is horribly biased. Then the reporter harps back months to the moment in time when things were electrifying, collaborating Milosevic's link with crime, only to discover it was no more than Paddy Ashdown, crowing at his own brilliance in being able to fortell a future planned by his own government. Then we are told that Milosevic casts supercilious glances at the press, and uses a hectoring, bullying tone during his long cross-examinations (which in fact are often very short examinations given the rules imposed on him by the court). Then we are told that appearances may be deceptive, masking the [good] work of the prosecutors in eliciting damaging statements from ostensibly disappointing witnesses, among whom is listed Markovic. Compare this to http://emperors-clothes.com/milo/rade.htm

  A child would laugh at such reporting, and an adult should grasp that it is blatant character assassination. I'm left thinking the guardian is talking to an audience more interested in a lynching than seeing that justice is done. Hardly "cricket" that.

  How do I actually watch the events of July 26th. The video archive at: http://hague.bard.edu/video.html says that the court was not in session that day.. If one wants the truth,the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, one has to go to the facts, and this is one case when I don't know how to.
  Ian Davis
  waterloo
  Ontario, Canada

- Wednesday July 31, 2002 at 10:21 pm
  Correction: Monday July 29, 2002 at 9:00 pm gives links to the requested days.
  Ian Davis
  Waterloo
  Ontario, Canada

- Wednesday July 31, 2002 at 10:24 pm

  Jared Israel surprised us with:

  [..]"Who would develop 'an orchestrated plot to kill' Milosevic?' That would be The Hague "tribunal". Does this sound extreme?[..]

  Yes, this does sound extreme - against a background of the dozens and dozens of indictees held at the ICTY's Detention Unit over a seven-year period without loss of life.

  "[..] concerning the supposed suicide of Slavko Dokmanovic while in custody at The Hague [..]"

  I hold the Dutch judicial and medical systems in high regard - and not because I happen to be Dutch. Investigations by **Dutch** authorities confirmed Dokmanovic committed suicide.

  "[..] and considering that the 'trial' is going so badly that virtually all TV coverage has been eliminated [..]"

  Your complaint is correct, but should not be addressed to me. In 1997 I set up, and still run today, the 'Tribunal Live' service which allows anybody on Internet to listen to the proceedings in the three courtrooms in the Hague in up to four languages; I also introduced and oversee the live video webcasts from the Milosevic trial. And, btw, I am not paid for this. If you speak with Mr. Milosevic again, say 'nema na cemu' on my behalf in reply to "his warmest thanks to all of you who work without reward or even recognition to feret out the truth and inform Westerners about Yugoslavia."

  I was aware of Mr. Black's role, though I stand corrected where you explain that he is the Chair of the ICDSM Lawyers Group and not of the ICDSM organisation as such.

  I don't want to enter a word-game, but I think that someone who does not represent a defendent *in* court can be called *his lawyer* (cp the French title 'advocat a la cour').

  Since you are in contact with Mr Milosevic and his legal advisors, could you shed some light on why Mr Milosevic defends himself before the ICTY? I'd say a more logical strategy for a defendent not recognising (the authority of) a court would be not to speak at all, i.e. to completely ignore it like the defendents in the 1947/48 Nuremberg trials did.

  Frank Tiggelaar

  Frank Tiggelaar
  Amsterdam
  Holland

- Wednesday July 31, 2002 at 11:55 pm
  Frank Tiggelaar, you miss his point. The tribunal may be illegal but it is Slobo's world forum. If judge May were to set him free after Carla's prosecution rests, he would not go home. He wants to show the world that it was NATO to blame for the distruction in the Balkans.
  Pertti Lindroos
  Quesnel
  B.C. Canada