MILOSEVIC TRIAL DISCUSSION ARCHIVE
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————————————————————————————— Former Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic is on trial for war crimes in the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia at The Hague. This marks the first time a head of state has been personally prosecuted before an international criminal court. Is Slobodan Milosevic getting a fair trial? ———————————————————————————— NOTICE: Comments posted to this discussion board are solely the responsibility of individual posters, and not of JURIST, its owner, operators, host or staff. JURIST reserves the right to block or remove posts that are in violation of law or that advocate illegal acts, that are obscene, disruptive, defamatory, threatening, harassing or abusive, that are in breach of intellectual property rights, rights of publicity or rights of privacy, that are advertisements or solicitations, or that are not related to the topic being discussed. ———————————————————————————— discussion archive Wednesday December 04, 2002 at 3:19 am The suggestion that May should step down was put months and months ago. Maybe he would like to. I mean, the amici seem to consider resigning (wonder what kind of show is to ensue when Tapuskovic resigns!!) But we all know that May has been installed as a judge thanks to his being an amicus of Mr Blair, and I doubt very much whether Blair would ever forgive him for abandoning him. The replacement would most probably be a non-Brit, although the next presiding judge would probably be Robinson. We hear contradicting news about whether Yugoslavia is going to drop the case at the ICJ against some Nato countries or not. This self-contradicting must of course be part of the plan, the way we have seen the Serb nationalist scumbag Mr Massage act. One day saying this, next day saying that. The idea is to confuse people, so that nobody knows where we are going. And ultimately the case will be dropped in midst of all that confusion. And of course it will. Another similar condition has been imposed before Yugoslavia will be admitted to the Partnership for Peace: the Yugoslav citizens must drop all the reparation demands ensuing from the Nato bombing. It seems a crazy idea that Yugoslavia should actually reimburse Nato for the expenses it incurred because of the bombing, but according to the traditional international law it is possible that the winner of the war requires the lost party to pay war reparations. The two problems with this figure are, first, that this was not a war but a humanitarian intervention, and second, Yugoslavia wasn't strictly speaking the loser. I must confess that I have misgivings about the French carrying out any massacre in Zvornik. Didn't the tape that was played in the Krstic trial suggest that French was spoken in the Serb troops. I think the French have a reputation for being pro-Serb. That has been shown in Kosovska Mitrovica, which belongs to the French zone. Some French captain leaked target information to the Serbs during the bombing. Etc. And I must be totally honest. Would the French be capable of carrying out any highly demanding killing job? The Foreign Legion must have lost every battle it has been involved in. No, give me the SAS. That would square much better with the British monkey business to get Milosevic ousted. At least too many chains of command would be avoided, one of which understands only French. But of course the French involvement would evokes memories of the Jackal (which even missed De Gaulle by the way), and that is why the people buy it. Mr Massage, come here and fight like a man. I know memory lapses can happen to everyone, as you say, but it is more likely to happen at a heavy consumption of alcohol. I know who have read what this discussion is about (which is why you avoid the topic), and since I know that you have hard remembering what it was, let me just remind you that you haven't even once touched on the real topic. No, you just go on with your political slurs, as if anybody's political affiliation were any of your business. But I think such a Serb nationalist scumbag has demonstrated that to such Serb nationalist scumbags this trial is all about politics. And that to you Einsteins is the reason it should go on. That is why you bother to intrude into such "important" discussions like this. But do you scumbag even consider the possibility that the political nature of the trial is exactly the reason why it should stop? Or can you give any specific crime of which Milosevic should be convicted? I think your comment on Seselj is telling: he is good for Serb pride only behind bars. Only behind bars? That must be the new democratic vision of the Yugoslav government. If can't kill your rivals, jail them. Well we already know that the government calls itself the opposition, which rhymes well with the schitzophrenic crap that we have hear from you. And as you said, we should listen. Believe me, we are. Jari Nousiainen Finland Wednesday December 04, 2002 at 4:35 am About the paraffin test. We know that the Yugoslavs found out that the victims had fired shots. This result is conclusive, not inconclusive. From Gogol's explanation I gather that what passes the paraffin test would pass the more technical methods, but not the other way around. In other words, if the Yugoslavs found with the paraffin test that most of the victims had carried arms, the more technical methods might have confirmed that all of them did. But if there were unarmed civilians among the victims (which is a sort of melange of the versions put forward by Ranta, OSCE and the Yugoslav), then it is still unclear who fired the shots. It is something of a "surprise" that the US knew right away that the killers were Serbs. Consider this extract from an earlier article in Helsingin Sanomat. Obviously the Serb complicity is borne out by the fact that the Serb research team took possession of the bullets they found inside the bodies, but that is all: "The provenance of the weapons used in the killings has been checked thoroughly, right down to the batch numbers of the assault rifles. The only missing link is that the rifles themselves have never been found. In addition the actual bullets found inside the victims were not in the immediate possession of the research team, since the Serbian pathologists who took part in the initial post mortem operations did not hand over the bullets to the Finns. This had apparently been something of a surprise. The Finns had nevertheless photographed all of the bullets." Oh great. All we really know that the shots were fired from AK-47. I am sure that is a big help. This "provenance" has been determined by the shells that were found on the ground. The ballistic analysis showed that the 22 men found in the gully were shot from the distance of less than 30 metres. Now how the hell does that suggests a crime against humanity? You have to know if the guys had guns, and that is what Ranta finds so unimportant, even if she insists this was a "crime against humanity"! Besides, we heard the testimony from the Belgian (?) forensic experts who said that the ballistic analysis can only tell if the shots have been fired from a few centimetres or not. But obviously this research team is catering to the Western tastes. First they dismiss the paraffin test, carry out know test to replace it (or if they did, they never told us) and conclude that the shots were fired from 30 metres, even if that result is inconclusive! The importance of this close range is of course that the victims were deliberately shot instead of being some "collateral damage". The problem is that the KLA fought also in civilian clothes, so it was hard to tell. You really need to know if they were carrying guns. But let us suppose that somebody staged something. Why didn't the Serbs throw weapons into the gully to stage the victims as combatants? It would have been easy to make them "fire" shots after they were dead. The corpses were tampered with anyway, because they were thrown in the gully. And besides, why would the Serbs throw them in the gully in the first place? Letting them lie around the terrain would have seemed much more natural. On the other hand, the gully suggests a mass-grave, and it can't have been in the Serb interests to stage themselves as perpetrators of a massacre! Whoever did this knew Walker would be there in no time, so they had to consider who the scene would look like. J N Finland Wednesday December 04, 2002 at 5:08 am Seems strange to me that the Serbs would go to great lengths to conceal their "crimes" by shipping dead Albanians so they could bury them in Belgrade while on the other hand, they were quite happy to "invite" NATO to bomb them by throwing dead Albanians into a gully in Racak.Gee whiz... I've gatecrashed many a party, but these guys really take the cake, not to mention a slice of probably the richest mineral and fertile land in south east Europe. The role of the ICTY and its stooges, May etc., is simply to add a veneer of leglity to it. David Australia Wednesday December 04, 2002 at 7:31 am And so they are trying again today. Judge May (NATO) is now protecting Croatia which Mr. Milosevic is accusing and leaving little doubt about it of breaking the accepted Cyrus Vance plan, the UNO plan. C61 was at a loss when Mr. Milosevic read the UNO Secretary General report on the plan and its provission to keep the krajina under the protection of the UN blue helmets, outside of Croatian jurisdiction until a resolution could be reached. Before that C61 came under scrutiny again about his alleged misapropiation of the US$169,000 collected from the Serbian diaspora. C61 knew nothing about it and prosecutor Frau Hildegard Uertz-Retzlaff objected to the introduction of a written declaration by Mr. Milosevic given by the official at the time in charge of finances and working directly with C61. Judge May (NATO) realising practically anything has been introduced by the prosecutors including the 52 tapes of intercepts of unknown origine etc., resorted to allow the marking of the document for later oral arguments. Waht a magnanimus fellow this May (NATO)! Gogol Charlemagne Conn. USA Wednesday December 04, 2002 at 10:22 am Here are few excerpts from the front-page article of yesterday's POLITIKA re YU lawsuit against NATO, analysing the news: Federal Government has decided FRY is to pursue its lawsuit filed with the International Court of Justice at The Hague against NATO countries regarding the bombing of Yugoslavia in the spring of 1999, which will undoubtedly cause unfavourable comments in NATO circles in Brussels and probably additionally complicate the accession of Yugoslavia to the Partnership for Peace process. However, the Federal Government has decided to take such a step probably guided by the economic interest, since there is another lawsuit filed by the state of Bosnia & Herzegovina against FRY with the same International Court of Justice, charging our country with aggression and genocide in B&H. The Yugoslav party in the case B&H vs. FRY before the International Court of Justice at The Hague has based its defence on the fact that our country was not a member of the UN within the time frame covered by the lawsuit and therefore the International Court of Justice is not competent in the case. The defence lawyers of NATO countries have based their case on the fact that Yugoslavia was not a member of the UN at that time and therefore the International Court of Justice is not competent in the case. Thus, the same argument used by the Yugoslav party defending itself against the charges of B&H with the same Court. A precedent in one case becomes the basis of the process in another case, or rather, if the Court admits the Bosnian lawsuit against FRY, it will have to admit the Yugoslav lawsuit against NATO as well. The fact that the Federal Government has decided not to drop the lawsuit after all means only that Belgrade draws a logical and legal connection between these two cases and that the Partnership for Peace is a nice thing, but 200 billion dollars damages is a much more serious thing for this country and for its future generations. While we are already reading POLITIKA, here's something for Canadian participants in this forum: A Canadian Army unit of 900 men, that was a part of the UN peace corps in the south of Croatia in 1993, was awarded a special recognition. These soldiers, 'risking their own lives', as reported by the Canadian news agency, took part in the operation of rescuing Serb civilians against the onslaught of the Croatian Army in the region of the Medak Pocket. The task of Canadian soldiers, accompanied by French troops, was to place themselves between the clashing parties within the territory in crisis. According to the Canadian sources, they had sustained Croatian artillery attacks for full 15 hours, trying to protect Serb civilians. Four Canadian soldiers were wounded in that action. Could someone provide some links? Vera Martinovic Belgrade Yugoslavia Wednesday December 04, 2002 at 11:00 am http://globeandmail.com/ then search under medak (in the issue of 2 Dec 2002) vesa v. france Wednesday December 04, 2002 at 12:52 pm Vera, the battle at Medak pocket was I have read the largest Canadian action since Korea. It went unreported and unacknowledged in Canada for 4 years, primarily it is suggested because we would have been embarrassing our american allies had we dared suggest that we had actually been protecting the very people the US was vilifying. The incident is described in detail in Scott Walkers book... Inat (I think). Our government did finally recognise the bravery of the Princess Patrick Regiment in this action, four years later. One of the soldiers involved in helping Serbs in the Balkans, [a member of the Princess Pat's] was later killed by "friendly US fire" in Afghanistan. This is the tribute written of him. I think it worth reading: http://www.balkanpeace.org/rs/archive/apr02/rs210.shtml Ian Davis Waterloo Ontario Wednesday December 04, 2002 at 12:57 pm Correction: Princess Patricia.. Ian Davis Waterloo Canada Wednesday December 04, 2002 at 1:07 pm Vera, I live by the Canadian border and I see the Canadian news. Here are some links for you regarding Canada's fight with the Croats. There was no mention of the battle at Medak Pocket in the Canadian media until 5 years later in 1998. I saw a report on the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation about this, and the soldiers weren't sworn to secrecy or anything. The fact of the matter is that the Canadian media chose not to report the story and the Canadian government chose not to talk about it. Those Canadian soldiers tried to tell their story, but nobody would listen to them. When I saw them on the CBC they appeared to be angry and bitter about the whole experience. One Canadian soldier told of how he killed a Croat soldier with a machine gun. The reporter said, "You killed a man, how does that make you feel?" The soldier replied, "They (the Croats) were butchering those (Serb) villages and shooting at us. I would shoot him again." The soldiers all seemed to be angry that things had been hushed up the way that they were. They tried to tell what had happened in Croatia, but everybody thought they were crazy because the media and the government were pretending that nothing had happened. Incidentally, according to the CBC report I saw, these particular soldiers who fought the HVO at Medak Pocket were shipped out of Croatia 2 weeks after the fighting. Here are some links: Link 1 Link 2 Link 3 Link 4 Link 5 Andy Wilcoxson Washington, United States Wednesday December 04, 2002 at 2:19 pm Kostunica is complaining about the West, going on about how cooperation had to be bilateral. He must be living in a dream world. Did he learn nothing from the Milosevic years? The job of Yugoslavia is to "comply", comply, and comply again, to take "unilateral concessions". The West gives orders and he follow them. This is not a dialogue between equals. It's funny to see his nationalism peak for elections, and then afterwards, he will speak of the need to be pragmatic and obey the necessary instructions for the greater good. Serbs have been fooled already by this at least twice, will they be fooled again? R. B. Canada Wednesday December 04, 2002 at 2:24 pm Correction; To make unilateral concessions, not take them. To add to this, if Kostunica, should he win, take a decisive stand against the Euro-Atlantic mob, even lining up publicly with Milosevic and Seselj, then he will show himself deserving of some respect. His history, however, shows that all of his resistance is of the passive variety and will end as soon as he's pressured. Lastly, it does not matter how much of a nationalist he is if he has been taken in by the IMF and their Serbian agents in G-17 Plus. That is, from an economic point of view, an extremely anti-nationalist policy and one that threatens permanent enslavement. R. B. Canada Wednesday December 04, 2002 at 2:31 pm Milosevic has turned down the psychiatric examination. Symbol Company Keyword You are here > HOME > NEWS > WORLD > Article TOP NEWS WORLD BUSINESS STOCKS & SHARES FUNDS PERSONAL FINANCE INTERNET TECHNOLOGY SCIENCE SPORTS ENTERTAINMENT ODDLY ENOUGH Advertisement feature Motoring information A different approach to the Executive car Stand out from the crowd 04 Dec 2002 16:58 GMT Milosevic refuses psychiatric tests THE HAGUE (Reuters) - Slobodan Milosevic has refused to undergo a psychiatric examination ordered by judges at The Hague warcrimes tribunal to gauge the toll his trial is taking on his mental health, a court spokesman has said. Judges last month asked a psychiatrist and a cardiologist to provide medical reports on the former Yugoslav leader. Milosevic has suffered bouts of high blood pressure, flu and exhaustion since his trial started in February. Milosevic is willing to be examined by a cardiologist, but not a psychiatrist, tribunal spokesman Jim Landale told Reuters. "He turned down the opportunity to have a psychiatric examination. He made it clear that he did not wish to have a psychiatric examination," Landale said. END I did not post the entire article much to do about nothing. Kathryn Love SJC USA Wednesday December 04, 2002 at 3:20 pm I was wondering about that psychiatric test . . .good for Slobo! No wonder judge May (NATO) was banging his fist on the bench yesterday. Serbia Faces Another Presidential Vote Failuresays Reuter . . . Gogol Charlemagne Conn. USA Wednesday December 04, 2002 at 3:26 pm C61 six days of him does not raise any interest in the western media. Wonder why? Gogol Charlemagne Conn. USA Wednesday December 04, 2002 at 5:11 pm Further re Medak Pocket.. story was in "Tested Mettle" not Inat. Also see: http://www.cda-cdai.ca/library/medakpocket.htm Ian Davis Waterloo Canada Wednesday December 04, 2002 at 5:32 pm FROM THE MOUTH OF THE HORSE * Asked to confirm that Mr. Milosevic had refused to be examined by a psychiatrist and that the Tribunal was in possession of the cardiologist’s report, Landale answered in the positive to both questions. He made clear that the Trial Chamber had the cardiologist’s report. * Leading on from this, a journalist asked what the procedure would now be as Mr. Milosevic had refused to see the psychologist. In answer, Landale made clear that the request for a psychiatrist’s report had come from the Trial Chamber and was not part of Mr. Milosevic’s defence. He stated that the Tribunal would not force any accused to undergo such tests but stated that it would have been beneficial for the Trial Chamber to have had such a report on Mr. Milosevic’s mental state of health, especially as it was something that had originally been raised by the Medical Officer at the Detention Unit. Landale added that the Judges would now proceed on the evaluations and submissions already in their possession. Gogol Charlemagne Conn. USA Wednesday December 04, 2002 at 5:34 pm Another journalist pointed out that there were new reports coming in from the former Yugoslavia of journalists covering the Tribunal having problems with Dutch visa and immigration regulations. These problems had occurred on a number of occasions in the past. The journalist added that when the Netherlands agreed to host the Tribunal, it could have expected that journalists from the area would wish to come to The Hague to cover the trials, adding that it could be argued that this was a natural right of journalists from the former Yugoslavia and that the Dutch authorities should make all necessary provisions to ensure that that can happen without unnecessary complications. The journalist wondered if this was also the opinion of the Tribunal and whether the Tribunal was aware of this problem. He also inquired whether the Tribunal had contacted the Dutch authorities about the problem. In answer, Landale stated that the Tribunal was aware of the problem and was concerned about it and keen to find a resolution. He stated that the issue had been taken up at a senior level with the Dutch authorities and that it was in the interest of all parties to solve the problem as quickly as possible. He underlined the fact the ICTY held public hearings and that it was important for the population of the former Yugoslavia in particular to be able to follow the proceedings. He added that part of the Tribunal’s mandate was to contribute to the restoration and maintenance of peace in the region and that access to the Tribunal by journalists was essential in facilitating this. Gogol Charlemagne Conn. USA Wednesday December 04, 2002 at 7:20 pm A.P. Vucelic wrote: Gogol, freeserbia is a War Party agit-prop site, one doubts it is even located in serbia.......... FreeSerbia is based in Belgrade. The organisation partners with Amsterdam-based Domovina Net and XS4ALL Internet to supply the Serbian Internet community with FreeSerbia's technical staff also maintain one of Bard College's archive servers in Amsterdam which several people on this forum use. Frank Tiggelaar Amsterdam Holland Wednesday December 04, 2002 at 7:26 pm Glitch - 2nd paragraph should read: FreeSerbia is based in Belgrade. The organisation partners with Amsterdam-based Domovina Net and XS4ALL Internet to supply the Serbian Internet community with daily live and integral RealAudio/Video coverage from the Milosevic trial as well as a full RA/RV archive similar to Bard College's - with Serbian audio. The service runs on the Serbian 'light Internet', which in essence is a network linking most local ISP's proxy servers while offering no international connections. Fees charged for this network are about 20% of 'full' Internet access, an advantage which weighs in at 8-10 hour session days in the Hague. Frank Tiggelaar Amsterdam Holland Wednesday December 04, 2002 at 7:58 pm Do the journalists of free serbia have visas from the Dutch government to cover the trial or they just get a daily email in Belgrade from the ICTY press room? Gogol Charlemagne Conn. USA Wednesday December 04, 2002 at 8:18 pm I all be judge, I 'll be jury, Said cunning old Fury; I'll try the whole cause and condemn you to death! Alice in Wonderland Gogol Charlemagne Conn. USA Wednesday December 04, 2002 at 8:26 pm what more evidence do we need that freeserbia shills for the HumWarriors than Frank instantly leaping to their defense ? A.P. Vucelic NY NY Wednesday December 04, 2002 at 8:36 pm Vera, Your writting reminds me of Upton Sinclair's Boston , a detailed account of a famous trial in America . . . I have to tell you: I love it! Gogol Charlemagne Conn. USA Wednesday December 04, 2002 at 9:34 pm After a week in Toronto it is good to come back to Kamloops. I felt like a hick from the sticks as I walked Bay Street. I was the only one looking at the skyscrapers and bumping into people. My time at CBC, on a personal note, was productive. I was unable to see anyone of note to whom I could voice my complaint about the media bias. I spoke to two producers who gave me the well worn answer which I had received many times to my letters of protest. They said that no matter what they report on Yugoslavia; the Serbs, Croats and the Muslims protest equally that their side is not being represented fairly. They also protected the foreign correspondents as being impeccable in their fairness. The goal of CBC according to these producers was to provide the highest standard of fairness and objective reporting. I accused them of being an appendage of CNN and of not having a vision, they answered that they were dedicated to the highest standard of fairness to serve the varied interests that make up this nation of ours. I am afraid the nation is in trouble. An interesting link which provides an analysis of the Mesic-Milosevic encounter which my friend Ivan might find interesting can be found at http://www.zmag.org/sustainers/content/2002-11/24grubacic.cfm I have written on the Medak pocket in several posts which can be found in the archives. I have had discussions with Canadian soldiers who served in this theatre and I have summarized their observations in my posts. In a previous post I have also provided a CBC link to a program which summarized the events of the Serbian expulsion from Krajina. Walter Trkla Kamloops BC Wednesday December 04, 2002 at 10:19 pm About Free Serbia; I found their commentary on a December 1998 Milosevic interview to Newsweek, published in whole by Politika, to be rather a low blow. It claimed that Milosevic was insane based on the answers to the questions, since he did not see things the way the Euro-Atlantic zombies see things. By the way, Nebojsa Covic made a rather tasteless comment recently about Vojislav Seselj, mitigated somewhat by Seselj's record of tasteless comments of his own. Covic, former mayor of Belgrade and now agent of surrender to Albanians, said that Seselj would drop out of the presidential election because he will end up in prison, a place, Covic said, he likes because he "enjoyed" his experience in Zenica. So one thing that supposedly sets this "enlightened" regime from the likes of Seselj, being tasteful enough not to joke about rape, seems to be a quality that it does not have. R. B. Canada Thursday December 05, 2002 at 12:17 am Frank, FreeSerbia is based in the Netherlands (a NATO country) and the owner of FreeSerbia is a man named Michael Polman. Here is the WHOIS information on FreeSerbia as provided by the VeriSign registrar. I don't know about you, but the last time I checked Belgrade wasn't located in the Netherlands, and Serbs didn't have names like Michael Polman. Now quit coming here and making up dumb stories about Milosevic being a dictator, and FreeSerbia being based in Belgrade. Andy Wilcoxson Washington, United States Thursday December 05, 2002 at 3:12 am Maybe CBC is trying to be as objective as possible and gives the Croats, the Serbs and the Muslims a fair share of the reporting. The trouble is that the pro-Muslim reporting, which Frank T. here witnesses to, is flagrantly biased in itself. If Andy is right and Mr T is lying about the location of the news providers, how can we believe anything he says about what went on in the Balkans in the 90's? But they get their fair share at CBC all right. Besides, what has the fair share to do with anything? Doesn't CBC know that it is the Serbs that are prosecuted in the ICTY? Are they getting their fair share there? If not, why should they settle for a "fair share" in CBC? Thursday has traditionally been the day that the cockroaches creep out of the sewer and start looking for booze. Or maybe Thursday is the day that the Yugoslav government officials start working before the weekend. Anyway, thursday has been traditionally the day that Mr Massage makes his appearance in this discussion. Maybe his drinking bout has taken a little longer this time. Start being so naive. You make me nervous. If Mr Massage is any indication, Kostunica makes these promises about resuming the case at the ICJ just before the election. "200 billion dollars as damages", my ass. Mr Massage must be choking in his green slime when he thinks that somebody really believes that. Mr Massage knows that the government changes its policy even if it were harmful to itself. The purpose is to keep a safe distance between the naive populace (at home and abroad) and the clever ruling class. That is why the policy has to be changed every day, or at least every week, and at the very least before the presidential election. The article in Politika reminds me of the reasoning that was put in this discussion some time ago: the ICJ cases are based on contradictory premises concerning the jurisdiction, depending on whether Yugoslavia was a UN member state or not. But if Yugoslavia's current policy coincides with what has been discussed in this discussion, it must be naive and since the Serb nationalists are not naive, the policy must be meant to deceive the masses. Of course the government will drop the case at the ICJ after the election! Forget about your 200 billion dollars. You will never see it in your lifetime with this government even if the case were resumed, which it won't. The case Bosnia v. Yugoslavia revolves around jurisdiction in genocide cases. The Yugoslav government is trying to argue that the Genocide Convention didn't bind it because it was not a member of the UN. But genocide is different, that is exactly why Milosevic is now held in The Hague on genocide charges. Surely the ICJ will help the ICTY, as it has done before, to establish the radical effect of genocide, which will even break the conventional immunity rules. If genocide can break the immunity rules, it can surely break the reasoning based on whether Yugoslavia was a member of the UN. The government knows this, but it is lying. The hearing in this case was held on November 7, and as far as I know, the court is still deliberating. I wouldn't put my stakes on the Yugoslav government, because it will lose anyway, whatever the rules are. If the international community doesn't like the rules, it will change them. The international community may like this new lap dog government, but the trouble is that all the cases are about "what Milosevic did". It is my guess, and I am probably wrong, that the ICJ decides genocide supersedes such questions as whether a state was a member state of the UN and so on. Then it can go on claiming that in the Legality of Use of Force Yugoslavia had lost its UN membership. But I haven't kept up with the details of these cases. The Milosevic trial is enough to keep one busy enough. Just believe Mr Massage. Kostunica is the best choice. He is in the government and he is undemocratic, which is why he belongs to the democratic opposition. I wonder why Mr Massage hasn't changed his opinion of Kostunica yet. Once Mr Massage exits, Mr T enters. One word about that UN General Assembly report of 1999 on Srebrenica. The report said that the claims that Markale marketplace massacres were staged by the Muslims are nonsense. That means in effect that we must discredit Michael Rose and Akashi, who were working for the UN themselves. Rose is a simple man. He really put it succintly when he said that just by looking at the traces the shells had left you could immediately conclude that the shells had been fired from the Bosnian side. How could anyone doubt that the General Assembly knows these things better? Jari Nousiainen Finland Thursday December 05, 2002 at 5:48 am Andy Here is the whois information which people who know how to use the database get on their screens. Please refrain from personal insults like the one in your latest posting - they are not allowed under this forum's charter. Mr Charlemagne As I said in my posting, FreeSerbia gets a daily integral live feed from the Milosevic trial over the Internet; they have no reporters based in the Hague. Other than that, journalists with an accreditation to the ICTY do not need visa for the Netherlands. Two mistakes in a one-line posting is a bit much, don't you think? Frank Tiggelaar Amsterdam Holland Thursday December 05, 2002 at 6:06 am I'm not sure that people on this forum are really interested in what he has got to say, but former general Sir Michael Rose will appear before Dutch parliament's Srebrenica Inquiry Commission tomorrow. Domovina Net will webcast the session live at http://radiodomovina.net . Frank Tiggelaar Amsterdam Holland Thursday December 05, 2002 at 7:39 am Frank Tiggelaar must be a joker and a half! He slips us the following line: "I'm not sure that people on this forum are really interested in what he has got to say, but former general Sir Michael Rose will appear before Dutch parliament's Srebrenica Inquiry Commission tomorrow. Maybe he's doing it tongue in cheek, or maybe he just thinks we're all fools. Now, why wouldn't you be sure, Frank? Are we all supposed to be biased enough that whatever he says contrary to our views we wouldn't accept or what? Get a life, mate! David Australia Thursday December 05, 2002 at 7:43 am Frank, This is what a read from the latest press event at the ICTY: Another journalist pointed out that there were new reports coming in from the former Yugoslavia of journalists covering the Tribunal having problems with Dutch visa and immigration regulations. These problems had occurred on a number of occasions in the past( . . . ) Now you say freeserbia have not journalists at the ICTY and they "get" fed from it. Good enough I also get "fed" from the same feed, (probably not) here in the States. Your comment about "too many mistakes" is certainly remakable since I did not know we had a quota on them, but I am sure you will point out to me when I have exhausted it. A marvelous job, you have Franck, marvelous. Gogol Charlemagne Conn. USA Thursday December 05, 2002 at 8:15 am Gogol, Everybody is being "fed", even the mushrooms! And the current fad diet is the same as the one proscribed by people like Mr T, Mr May, Mr (not-so)Nice and so on. Our job is to eat and keep eating :-) so that we may grow and become even bigger mushrooms than they assume we are. The only problem is I (and many people here at least) seem to like a balanced diet. David Australia Thursday December 05, 2002 at 10:17 am Andy, I read your posting in reply to Frank claims about freeserbia (actually I see now why it is like radio free europe and radio sloboda ) and I can't find any insults which could be considered a violation of this forum's rules. I wonder if Frank is not suffering from a vigilante complex condition. Considering his job this could be serious. Frank, Jokes aside, I tried your radio link and it says it is under construction. The rest it is all in Serbo-Croatian which I can't understand. I hope the Dutch Parliament "feed" is not only in Serbo-Croatian. Gogol Charlemagne Conn. USA Thursday December 05, 2002 at 10:35 am Frank, Apparently there are 2 FreeSerbia sites www.freeserbia.ORG and www.freeserbia.COM . They are both the same site, except one is based in the Netherlands and the other is a mirror site with a Belgrade address attached to it. THE WHOIS for both sites: http://www.whois.sc/freeserbia.org http://www.whois.sc/freeserbia.com freeserbia.ORG (from the Netherlands) posted content on it's site BEFORE freeserbia.COM. freeserbia.COM didn't post any content until late in July of 2001. freeserbia.ORG was posting content back in 1999 therefore freeserbia.COM is a mirror of freeserbia.ORG (this can all be verified at www.archive.org) The only one of the 2 sites that lists its billing contact is freeserbia.ORG, and the billing contact has a Netherlands e-mail address. I also noticed that FreeSerbia's marketing contact on both sites uses the .ORG (Neterlands) extension on their e-mail address. It seems that anything that has to do with money goes via the Netherlands site. That says to me that FreeSerbia is a Dutch outfit and what they have in Belgrade is just an office. Andy Wilcoxson Washington, United States Thursday December 05, 2002 at 10:39 am In so far as this forum has a Charter, the personal insults are not prohibited by it. Otherwise you would be out, Frank, because you are an insult to our intelligence. Go tell your social nanny that we don't swallow your crap any more. I am not sure if you are interested in what Rose has to say, if it contradicts your previous links. So me where we have been wrong, and I will show where you have been right. Jari Nousiainen Finland Thursday December 05, 2002 at 10:48 am Now, Ranta said that they knew which weapons were used and they had tracked them down to the "batch number". However did they do that? By the bullets, of which they made photographs? Then Ranta tells us that these weapons have not been found. That is quite a feat. Knowing the batch number of a weapon you have not seen. You only know that the cartridges on the ground must come from AK-47. But whoa! Could they know the batch numbers because the weapons are missing? Oh, that would point to a registered weapon, mostly likely registered by OSCE Kosovo Verification Mission. Wasn't that what it was there for? Now who would use weapons registered by OSCE? Milosevic's henchmen who came all the way from Belgrade? Remember, Racak is Milosevic's crime. Or the KLA? I am not even sure the Serb army has AK-47, whereas the KLA most likely did. But why would the weapons be missing? If you are a KLA soldier, you can say that the weapon has been used in combat, that is what is was made for. The trouble is that they may be as many weapons as there are bodies. If you wanted to stage a massacre, you have to have bodies without weapons. In a massacre, there have to be more bodies than weapons. So if the Racak victims carried weapons, these weapons have to be destroyed. And that must be why Ranta knows their batch numbers, because they are missing. Maybe someone who knows more of these things could enlighten us here. J N Finland Thursday December 05, 2002 at 11:17 am During the Racak various testimonies it was established during cross-examination at bits and moments the KLA was armed with AK47 supplied from Albania. Pady Ashdown (NATO) testified being on the Albanian side of the border under Albanian police escort(!) and witnessing the transport by mule-trains of weapons, ammunitions and other supplies for the KLA. Mr. Milosevic himself had the witnesses admitting the Chinese (China had been the main supplier of weapons to Albania) origin of the empty AK47 casings involved in the Rack incident. A lot was made also about the way the victims were dressed. The KLA had uniforms and insignias the purporse being obvious but that was not always so. There were allegations the victims had their clothes changed and if I remember Ranta confirmed the injuries corresponded to the vestiment found on the corpses fact which of course does not exclude the possibility of shooting post mortem to that effect. Gogol Charlemagne Conn. USA Thursday December 05, 2002 at 1:24 pm This is interesting Andy Wilcoxson Washington, United States Thursday December 05, 2002 at 3:29 pm I would be more interested in what Gen. Mike Jackson has to say about Kosovo, I think. Lou Coatney Macomb Illinois USA Thursday December 05, 2002 at 7:32 pm The Last Republic Day Gogol Charlemagne Conn. USA Thursday December 05, 2002 at 8:13 pm Thanks to Vesa, Ian & Andy for the links re Canadian peacekeepers. I also found Walter's old posts. Enlightening reading. Once again I've got the confirmation of the chasm between soldiers in the field and those who send them there, officials and politicians with no personal courage (e.g. draft-dodging Clinton, Blair, Solana etc.), brave in fighting wars on paper and not bothering to think these are real people on all sides. And one other thing: funny how many of those involved in peacekeeping here, if they're allowed to stay long enough, develop a strange syndrome called 'understanding the situation' and even its more dangerous form named 'liking the Serbs'. The solution is to replace them in haste, so as not to spread the disease further. Note only few of more illustrious examples: General Satish Nambiar, Michael Rose, Jasushi Akashi… Recently I saw a fine documentary about Decani monastery in Kosmet and the Italian unit that's been guarding it; it was fantastic to see how those Catholic young soldiers slowly started to attend 4 a.m. Orthodox services, among severe monks in the sober 14th-century church; or Italian officers dining in the solemn refectory with patriarchs heading the long table and a teenage monk reading the Scriptures. I wander when the Italian unit will be sent home packing? Will another unit replace them or will Decani be blasted with explosive as those other 100-plus churches? This Free Serbia article that Gogol had pointed out in the first place was indeed an exception: unusually low level of bias for their standards, only some 30% of relevant things missing from Dec. 3 session, and there were even few points made by Milosevic and some inconsistencies by C-061 reported. No wonder Gogol thought it was worth reading. But this was really only an exception: all their previous reports of the trial were very biased, not reaching the BBC levels though, but solidly one-sided. So, we don't really have to know who's who in this establishment, who's paying, or where they're based; all we need is to read their articles about the trial and compare them to the trial video and transcripts. By the way, they did mention Tapuskovic-May clash, but missed to mark the unusually harsh tone of it. May was his usual cantankerous self and Tapuskovic was obviously fed up with the second consecutive week of C-061 painful parroting. For those who haven't seen it, here's the very end of their exchange. Tapuskovic wanted more than 1 measly hour of questioning, what with the truckload of documents and tapes introduced, but May was suddenly worried about the endurance of C-061: "We have to let this witness go, he's been testifying here for days…" Tapuskovic: "I guess it's more important that we get to the bottom of the issues, rather than letting the witness go." May: "We've already considered that. You have 1 hour." Tapuskovic: "In that case, I have to ask myself whether it makes any sense anymore for me to continue doing this." May: "You have 1 hour. Tomorrow at 9.00." Gogol, thank you, but your praise is too much (it must be your Iberian soul speaking): neither I'm Upton Sinclair, nor this is a famous trial, and certainly not 'the trial of the century'. I just know how to put few sentences together, and the trial is a lousy show. But it gives me an excuse to write about my country. I have to speak up, because this situation reminds me of a rape case: the victim has been brutally beaten and gang-raped, but now everybody keep saying it's her fault - her skirt was perhaps too short, she flirted with those guys, and hey, she even had sex before… Don't get me wrong, Milosevic is not the girl from my metaphor. The girl is my country. Milosevic is, I don't know, her teacher falsely accused to have raped her. He kept quarrelling with other school staff, was rude to some kids, his teaching methods were maybe outdated, but he just didn't do it. So, is the teacher getting a fair trial??! Vera Martinovic Belgrade Yugoslavia Thursday December 05, 2002 at 8:53 pm Vera, I will remember your metaphor in a few hours when the trial resumes. I am glad you write about your country in relation to the trial of Milosevic, I feel following his trial some times so hopeless by seeing and hearing his voice in Serbo-Croatian while nothing in that theater of fools has anything to do with Yugoslavia besides him, Tapuskovic and the two dedicated interpreters, everything else is NATO, well almost since Jamaica and South Korea are more observers than participants, heavy handed NATO pettiness. At the star of the trial there was a terrific, I think, interpreter she had a firy style, was very quick and she gave a very accurate feeling of how Milosevic addressed to court, the gentlemen, the gentlemen of the other side . . . Lacu noc Gogol Charlemagne Conn. USA Friday December 06, 2002 at 3:57 am C61 has dropped his protection, he is being cross-examined right now (30 minutes delayed) on the clear! Judge May (NATO) addressed him as Mr. Mamic (?) Gogol Charlemagne Conn. USA Friday December 06, 2002 at 4:07 am It is hard to make out the name, now it sounds like Mr. Babic when Mr. Milosevic addressed him. I would imagine all the evidence given close doors shall now be made public since C61 does not exists any longer. Gogol Charlemagne Conn. USA Friday December 06, 2002 at 12:22 pm It's Babic: http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=1862811 Babic has been named by U.N. prosecutors at the International Criminal Tribunal for former Yugoslavia (ICTY) as a suspected member of a "joint criminal enterprise" led by Milosevic. Good that this show testimony is over. The prosecutions tricks are getting dirtier and dirtier. I find this quite humiliating for them. Peter Varavejke Belgium Friday December 06, 2002 at 12:37 pm Also: Tribunal probes U.S. aid to Croatia http://www.washtimes.com/national/20021206-53201640.htm Peter Varavejke Belgium Friday December 06, 2002 at 1:50 pm It was obvious it was Babic from early on. To keep him a "protected witness" was clearly a trick to hide parts of the testimony. They should be ordered to release transcripts of the closed sessions. However, this Tribunal is still the Tribunal, and they make up their rules to suit their convenience. Since this is not convenient for them and their paymasters, it won't happen. R. B. Canada Friday December 06, 2002 at 2:19 pm Thanks for the link Peter. I've read the article, written By Jeffrey T. Kuhner in THE WASHINGTON TIMES Where do these people find and spoke about ethnical cleansing of 150 - 200 thousands Serbs from Croatia. Here is the census from 1981 in Yugoslavia: http://www.rand.org/publications/MR/MR1188/MR1188.annex1.pdf Pay attention to Yugoslavian and Others (Others were mostly from mixed marriage Serbo-Croatian) Above Yugoslavia average there was extremely high number of Yugoslav nationality in Croatia and Vojvodina. Mostly Serbs in Croatia identified themselves as Yugoslavians. There were a wast number of Serbs in Vojvodina who were forced to leave Krajina before the last war. Significant movement of Krajina Serbs to Vojvodina started in 1914-1918, then it was "quiet" period until 1941. The very forcefull period was 1945 - 1948, then additional one in 1957. However in 1981 there was 11,5 percent of Serbs and 8.24 % of Yugoslavians out of 4,578 milion inhabitants in Croatia. Now; census rules in Croatia do not allow input of Yugoslavian nationality. So today there are around 120 thousand Serbs in Croatia and no one Yugoslavian. Pero Peric Canada Friday December 06, 2002 at 3:23 pm Mr. Milosevic asked Milan Babic what he discussed in Geneva with Secretary of State Madeleine K. Albright, "did she conveyed to you President Clinton support for Croatia's operation Storm to take the krjina ?". Babic confirmed it was so. Gogol Charlemagne Conn. USA Friday December 06, 2002 at 6:26 pm Potpourri Kosovo: It was “Mad Madeleine’s war”, Clinton’s power but Blair was the catalyst. Without Blair’s gung ho, bullying and dishonest rhetoric - especially the Blairs’ massive lies about Serb murder and rape of the Kosovars - the rest of Nato’s European partners would never have agreed to it. So now its official: the British media en masse recognise that New Labour is not truthful. While the Blairs spend a quarter of a million GBP’s each on a couple of dwellings and deny the truth about the circumstances: the quarter of million people they dispossessed and impoverished from Kosovo get not even a Christmas good wish from these self-professed fellow Christians and Socialists. “All governments are economical with the truth: this one lies.” By George Jones, The Telegraph. “It (the denial of some circumstances surrounding the Blair’s purchase of two dwellings in Bristol for more than half a million GBP’s) suggests the words coming from Downing Street spokesmen cannot be trusted - rightly or wrongly, and that the prime minister, through his official mouthpieces, cannot be trusted to tell the truth.” By Nick Assinder, BBC. “New Labour is still wedded to a culture of spin and deception.” By Jason Beattie, The Scotsman … On being economical with the truth Two left boots You’ve read of Britain’s malfunctioning tanks, rifles, radios, attack helicopters … Now soldiers are training in trainers because of a shortage of combat boots! It has even been alleged that some soldiers have been issued two left boots. While Blair parades on the world stage as a major military power - always in the presence of a US President - his health service, education, transport and crime are amongst worst in Europe if not the third world. Now we know why - two left boots! An army marches on its stomach: No not literally We’re only here for the beer We know what General Jackson had to say ‘We’re only here for the - oil’ to paraphrase his comments before Nato’s invasion of Kosovo. Kosovo: the bottom line? Peter Taylor Herts/UK Friday December 06, 2002 at 6:29 pm Babic didn't sound that rotten back in the times of war. Doesn't it all sound as if he was pressed to do this or blackmailed ?? As for Racak,if it wasn't Racak it would be for Machak. When they (new world order lords ) decide- the show must go on. Let's guess....Irak complies,no UN resolution explicitely use of - so, bombing is out of question ??? m. ciric netherlands Friday December 06, 2002 at 7:45 pm It's not polite to gloat, but let me just say - I told you so. C-061 is Milan Babic. He decided to act brave and remove the protection, but alas - only the last day of his testimony, after hampering the cross-examination by closed sessions for days. Though all transcripts are to become public now, we heard at the very end that the Trial Chamber is to deliberate whether to keep some of the investigation tapes secret after all. What is this? Those tapes are crucial (according to both Milosevic and Tapuskovic) in proving Babic guilty of perjury. Will the games never end? Uertz-Retzlaff will have her additional half an hour on Monday, but that would be of no avail to the Prosecution - Milosevic practically ruined the witness and Tapuskovic probably gave the Tribunal all the necessary info to indict him. In order to make up for all those days of closed sessions and covered identity, Milosevic had to squeeze all the issues in this one day and quickly recap everything with his questions. He managed partly, by summing all up under few major allegations that the witness had made. The first one was that the situation in CRO wasn't so desperate in 1990 and the beginning of 1991, but that the Serbs themselves had made it that way, organizing provocations instigated by Milosevic. To prove Babic wrong, Milosevic shortly described numerous examples of attacks on the unarmed Serb villages by the Croatian police, arrests and killings of civilians in towns, all happening months before any real fights, finishing each example with a rhetorical question 'So, the Serbian side is to be blamed for what happened?' The unfortunate Babic tried to escape in a similar way as the Albanian witnesses denied KLA activities: "I don't know those details", "I don't remember the specific details". But there were so many of these examples, one more gruesome than the other, many already publicly known, so Babic slowly changed his line: "I have been told about this case", "I heard that a large number of Serbs got killed". Of course, Milosevic didn't miss the opportunity to mention again the case of the witness' extended family member killed, only now the names were not hidden and an ugly story came out: someone informed Babic about an intercepted radio communication of the Croatian police, preparing a raid on one village, aiming to kill the most distinguished villagers, and specifically Babic's family. When Babic with the Serbs from Knin arrived to that village, it was already too late: his house had been burned, his father-in-law Boza Skrbic killed; fortunately, his mother and mother-in-law managed to escape. This was too much for Babic, of course, and when asked again the same 'So, the Serbian side is to be blamed for what happened?' he fell silent for a while, then feebly said "I don't know to which side do you refer…" Milosevic finally showed some mercy by moving to another question. The second allegation, broadly presented by Babic throughout his testimony, was that the YU Army had been controlled and manipulated by Milosevic to clash with the Croats with no real reason, through a series of provocations by the local Serbs against the Croats, into which the Army would step in heavily. Babic underwent the same pattern: as soon as the specific, concrete things were described, the broad allegations evaporated. Milosevic listed the examples of Croatian attacks against the Army. A transport helicopter trying to deliver food supplies to the Army barrack Promina blocked for months was shot down and the pilot Major Bukvic killed; barracks in Gospic blocked, without water and electricity, under fire, several soldiers and officers killed already the first day; the same happened throughout CRO; some small garrisons surrendered, soldiers were taken away without a trace or ended up in infamous Lora prison in Split; some tried to defend themselves (Major Tepic in Bjelovar, a posthumous hero, blew up a depot and himself when defence became impossible); many set out to de-block their barracks… To this torrent of examples Babic tried to remain vague as he was when testifying: "I've heard there were some blockings, but I don't know the details." Milosevic ridiculed him: "All right, you were not even interested in the events, you were more like a passive observer back then." And again, by the end there came the most gruesome example: the infamous case of killing soldiers in Karlovac, on the bridge over Korana; Croats butchered dozens of unarmed soldiers by firstly shooting them in their legs, then cutting their throats; one saved himself by jumping into the river. This being a publicly known event, Babic meekly admitted the slaughter happened. But Milosevic draw a full circle, briefly describing the bitter end of JNA in CRO: ceasefire negotiating (as the tape Tudjman-Kadijevic played the other day had shown), political decision to leave, long retreat under attacks, lootings, ambushed trains, killings… Thus, instead of unprovoked attacks of the JNA against the Croats, a totally opposite picture was revealed. As soon as Milosevic would establish something and make Babic confirm this, the latter would back out over the following issue, trying to minimize the impact of ugly facts. See this. Milosevic: "Already in 1991 there were more than 100,000 Serb refugees from Croatia who came to Serbia." Babic: "Yes, it was the first large Serb exodus, which coincided with the withdrawal of JNA from Western Slavonia." Milosevic: "There was an article in the 'New York Times' in 1993 talking about 10,000 mine-blasted Serb houses in Croatia, outside Krajina; Croatian Foreign Minister Mate Granic admitted to only 7,000; there were whole families in Zadar blasted together with their houses. Are you familiar with that?" Babic: "I know about the Zec family." [the notorious case in Zagreb, of a Serb family of four - father, mother, a teenage boy and a girl, abducted and brutally murdered by the Croat police, the event admitted even by Mesic] Milosevic: "So, you make 10,000 cases to come down to the Zec family, to this one tragic event?" Babic even had the nerve to imply that those poor Medak Pocket villages were somehow to blame for their own fate, 'because there was not a full demilitarisation implemented'?! And to top it all, he 'explained' that "the way Franjo Tudjman made war in 1993 and 1995 was the same way of making war of JNA in 1990 and 1991 under your command". Milosevic summarized things: "So, you are comparing road de-blocking done by the Army in Kijevo or Saborsko, when nobody got killed, with Medak Pocket and Operation Storm?" May lent a helping hand: "This is not a proper question." (?!) [Sorry, have to run; will continue tomorrow.] Vera Martinovic Belgrade Yugoslavia