MILOSEVIC TRIAL DISCUSSION ARCHIVE
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————————————————————————————— Former Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic is on trial for war crimes in the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia at The Hague. This marks the first time a head of state has been personally prosecuted before an international criminal court. Is Slobodan Milosevic getting a fair trial? ———————————————————————————— NOTICE: Comments posted to this discussion board are solely the responsibility of individual posters, and not of JURIST, its owner, operators, host or staff. JURIST reserves the right to block or remove posts that are in violation of law or that advocate illegal acts, that are obscene, disruptive, defamatory, threatening, harassing or abusive, that are in breach of intellectual property rights, rights of publicity or rights of privacy, that are advertisements or solicitations, or that are not related to the topic being discussed. ———————————————————————————— discussion archive Thursday January 29, 2004 at 12:50 am Dakic, I've read all of Scott's books, and recommend them highly. Do you know the story of King Marco. I include links below if you don't. Rememberance King Marco left his legacy in Bosnia Ian Davis Waterloo Canada Thursday January 29, 2004 at 3:16 am Thanks for replies! I will comment on them soon. The reason I am late is that bureaucracy on my University has let us for the whole day without internet, and I only hope that tommorow would be everything fine again. So there is no mistery. Arandjel Pasic and me are different persons, and there are some points on which I disagre with him. I will reply to Ana and others very soon. Goran Mihajlovic Yugoslavia Thursday January 29, 2004 at 4:15 am The Hutton verdict forbodes little good for the Milosevic verdict. Fot example why was the 'intelligence' in the following link not included. But it did not fit the propaganda line. How can people be so naive to think that when governments try to win over the public they resort to halftruths and deceptions. Mostly in the form of selective information which suits them best. Looks like the world is getting more naive with the years. That doesnt look to good fore the future. The quality of what is now known as free press (which it is not; it is self censoring and self serving press), will get only worst. People unite, were getting fucked by our governments!! http://middleeastreference.org.uk/kamel.html Peter Varavejke Belgium Thursday January 29, 2004 at 5:53 am Goran -- RE: What good has Milosevic done during his decade long rule? Cannot say as I have no connection whatsoever with the land or its people, let alone Milosevic past politics. Having said that, I cannot see the benefit of answering your question, even by the most informed. Milosevic is already "history". He was so intensively personified that his actions, real and imagined, have been already turned into legends and myths. Beside, one can only wonder whether doing something good for Yugoslavia was at all possible after 1989. What can be said is that one cannot but admire his stunning determination to fight unfairness, illegitimacy and indecency. Against all odds, he managed to do the unthinkable - take Justice to Court. He will be remembered as the Serb who fought those who took the name of Law in vain, reminding the New World that Justice remains the first and most profound issue, of universal concern, too precious to be left at the discretion of the appointed few. I cannot think of a better legacy... John North Canada Thursday January 29, 2004 at 6:53 am No Ian Bu I shall read it:) Dakic Ana Serbia Thursday January 29, 2004 at 7:25 am TODAY: The ICTY, Cesspool of the World.- Carla del Ponte, the ICTY Chief Prosecutor is considering in a last bid to win her case against Slobodan Milosevic, to bring Adolph Hitler to the witness stand. Aware that Adolph Hitler has been dead since May 1945, the prosecutor is negotiating with the Trial Chamber to accept the viewing of the Fuehrer's skull, bullet hole and all, together with a short statement written by Mr. Nice and his team of War Crimes experts, about Adolph Hitler's view on Slavs in general and Serbs in particular. Sources report judge May and Kwoon leaning excitedly about this possibility. Judge Robinson is reported anxious and worried. Gogol Charlemagne Shangri-La Thursday January 29, 2004 at 8:16 am Gorane in one of my post I was not answering to you but Dejan. I said your name but I meant Dejan. I think you can figure it out Sorry. Dakic Ana Serbia Thursday January 29, 2004 at 9:22 am I wish hereby to second the answers by John North's (January 29, 2004 at 5:53 am) and Pera Bora (January 28, 2004 at 2:51 pm) to the 'question' raised by Goran Mihajlovic from 'Yugoslavia' (January 28, 2004 at 1:17 pm). It seems as if sensible, open minds tend to gather in Canada, rather than further south (unless you go as far as Panam, of course). PS: Incidentally, - may I ask "F Y" when (on which date) did Dakic Ana post "whatever" here (in the 'Milosevic Trial Discussion') that she "heard somebody talking about on the bus"? Well, - I suppose not... Godfred Louis-Jensen Copenhagen D E N M A R K Thursday January 29, 2004 at 9:59 am Aware that Adolph Hitler has been dead since May 1945, the prosecutor is negotiating with the Trial Chamber to accept the viewing of the Fuehrer's skull, bullet hole and all, together with a short statement written by Mr. Nice and his team of War Crimes experts, about Adolph Hitler's view on Slavs in general and Serbs in particular. That was probably the funniest thing I've read on this forum yet. Thanks gogol! P M USA Thursday January 29, 2004 at 10:44 am Ana you have made recently some mind opening posts. No wander that you are undergoing a multi-personality attack. Pera Bora Ottawa Canada Thursday January 29, 2004 at 10:45 am Knave or Psychopath? During his tantrums over the BBC’s exposure of his “sexing up” of the Dodgy Dossiers used to convince the British public to support an illegitimate war against Iraq Blair has set about destroying the remnants Britain’s democratic systems which have diminished under his reign. Following the bucket of whitewash thrown over the possibly threatened sequestration of Dr Kelly’s pension - possibly leading to his demise - both the Chairman and the Director General of the BBC have also ‘gone’: Both refusing to apologise fully for reporting Blair’s deception. The late apology demanded and subserviently rendered by their replacements is both abysmal and worthless. But anyone with the observational powers of only a child can see that Blair has performed as massive a deception on the British people over Iraq as he did over Kosovo where his ought right lies of ‘death camps’ and ‘rape camps’ cannot be blamed on faulty intelligence. Many of Britain’s soldiers in Iraq have complained that as they began the attack they did not have the necessary CBN protection suits to survive a counter attack from even battlefield CBN weapons let alone Iraq’s Forty-five minute WMD’s as featured in Blair’s Dodgy Dossiers. There are two conclusions, which may be drawn from these facts: Either Blair knew that Iraq had no weapons of mass destruction - as the BBC has claimed - when he informed the British public that their existence was a serious threat to Britain and thus the justification for the British attack: Or he deliberately put British soldiers in mortal danger by not ensuring they had adequate protection. In short either Blair lied or he risked sending thousands of those British soldiers without proper protection suits to a certain and horrific death. As Teflon Tony crows over his duplicitous victory and his onetime henchman Campbell - porn writer, self confessed gigolo and “gutter press” journalist - demands ever more resignations at the BBC I hope the many craven New Labour members ponder this self evident truth. In any case they are due to get their cum uppence at the next election for pinning their hopes on this duplicitous megalomaniac who has spread so much horror around the globe with his cluster munitions to no good effect. This is a sad day for democracy. Peter Taylor Herts/UK Thursday January 29, 2004 at 11:34 am Peter , personally the best way for any decent person left in the BBC is to resign , just only of self respect for not getting contaminated with the lowest of the lowest dishonour and inmorality . !shame on you Hutton¡ lord? my ass!! M P Panama Thursday January 29, 2004 at 11:59 am OOPS, - that Shukri Buja... Peter Taylor! Excuse me, - I note with regret that I missed your posting of January 25, 2004 at 5:43 pm. Hence I need a 'time out', - but hope to return to your initial (and very sensible) question on "how can there have been a massacre at Racak if the man in charge of the operation (Major Radosavljevic) has not been and never will be indicted for such a crime"? (Has it maybe got to do with the significance of the "chain of command"? Anyway, secretly I shall continue also to ponder whether I can possibly interpret the words of the Indictment to mean that Milosevic is indicted specifically (or expressly, explicitly?) with "ordering" the Serb army/policemen to e.g. remove "a group of approximately 25 men" (discovered in the village of Racak) to a nearby hill, and then shoot and kill them? Since I - we? - never believed for one moment that the notorious killings "at" Racak (on or about 15 January, 1999) in fact occured that way, it is also a (different) question whether the policemen (and Major Radosavljevic!) were obeying their orders? I will reconsider also the (specific) meaning of Clause 16 of the Second Amended Indictment: INDIVIDUAL CRIMINAL RESPONSIBILITY Article 7(1) of the Statute of the Tribunal 16. Each of the accused is individually responsible for the crimes alleged against him in this indictment under Articles 3, 5 and 7(1) of the Statute of the Tribunal. The accused planned, instigated, ordered, committed, or otherwise aided and abetted in the planning, preparation, or execution of these crimes. By using the word "committed" in this indictment, the Prosecutor does not intend to suggest that any of the accused physically perpetrated any of the crimes charged, personally. "Committing" in this indictment refers to participation in a joint criminal enterprise as a co-perpetrator. The purpose of this joint criminal enterprise was, inter alia, the expulsion of a substantial portion of the Kosovo Albanian population from the territory of the province of Kosovo in an effort to ensure continued Serbian control over the province. To fulfil this criminal purpose, each of the accused, acting individually or in concert with each other and with others known and unknown, significantly contributed to the joint criminal enterprise using the de jure and de facto powers available to him. Until then I remain Godfred Louis-Jensen Copenhagen D E N M A R K Thursday January 29, 2004 at 12:10 pm AP V your message has me laughing. How much is US debt predicted right now and in few years time under your great Bush? Billions and billions like you know. I'm sure you live really bad in the United States. Ha ha ha what stupid example. What about living standards in Serbia and Slovenia? Give me break Pera Bora I focus on where people are saying wrong facts or to tell things they might not know. If you look back in last few months here you will see that. I am happy to stop somebody saying wrong things if they are Albinos, Albanians, Serbs or Somalians. That does not make anybody bad wolf. I remember very well the propoganda used and still used today to do with Vojvodina to frighten and manipulate Serbs into thinking that Vojvodina will become part of Hunagry. The wounds are fresh so you excuse me if I dont like to imply that some people claim a Vojvodian nationality as a first step to break up of Serbia (assisted of course by evil outside countries and enemies of Serbia). It was rubbish at that time and is rubbish today. You mistake me when you talk about disapointing me. I dont look for enemies outside Serbia or imagine people against me or my country with a project to make it bend on knees. I work to make friends with outsiders and especially with people from former Yugoslavia. It is very sad but true that so many have hate inside but I try anyway. I didnt see any anti semetic comment anywhere Mr Bora. Do you think this is evidence of another US / Russian/ European plot to destroy Serbdom? Whilst we are on ridiculous subject of paranoia and multiple personality can you tell me why you think Goran and me is the same person? I note there is strong rationality in your brain you should use it more. Walter Trkla you protest too much you said 'The crowds in Belgrade that you write about and claim that everyone was against Slobo shows to me that the propaganda has you hooked.' Either it is not good English or you tried to say that the crowds were not there. I was there and it was not propoganda. So what do you know about it? What you really wanted to say was how stupid you think those Serbian people are to make such protest. Thats ok but dont make other excuse about TV networks. Whats its worth I think dinasors like you will be forgotten not crowds that were red with blood beaten by the police. I feel sorry that you say such things about Serbian sons and daughters. Maybe you care more about your Western media. That is luxury. Serbian people care more about their future. Many of best people at protests in 1996 left country. At least next generation of diaspora will be more realistic about Milosevic and bad he did for Serbs Arandjel Pasic Jug Thursday January 29, 2004 at 12:22 pm Here, Mr.Godfred Louis-Jensen: Wednesday January 28, 2004 at 1:33 pm "Gorane, absolutely nothing that is good for Serbian people, he should be charged with incompetence by the Serbian people. But the fact that he is incapable should not be an excuse for Clinton and rest to bomb Serbia to stop genocide that never happened, to lie regarding Racak, to arm and let Croatians expel half a million Serbs.... There were only 250 000 Serbs in Krajina.... F Y US Thursday January 29, 2004 at 12:38 pm I just hope that one day in the future when Grate Britain and the rest of the Western World become again fee societies a new award for martyrdom and sincerity named “Kelly” would be established, followed by another one called “Blair” for the most distinguished and accomplished liar and cheet, followed by another one called “Lord Hutton” for the most accomplished cover up artist. Governments have taken not only media under their control but courts as well. There is no more independent media or courts around. My grimmest prediction is that we are moving towards the Third World War fast (Syria, Iran, .. Cab boom!!!). God help us all if this comes true. This entangled web of lies and deceits and self serving predictions can’t be untangled on it self easily and painlessly. I am astonished how uninterested and unengaged the public is. Let me quote Njegos: “My tribe is fast at sleep;” or “Pleme moje snom mrtvijem spava.” After these latest developments I will never again blame Germans for not seeing what is coming when Nazis took over or during their rule. We in the West are starting to consider us as a chosen race and most of us think that we have a right, coming out of our wealth, to tell others, less fortunate, what to do and if they do not to force them to do as they are told. Many people in the West are not aware that very soon even here we will be not asked for our opinions before we are asked to obey unconditionally. I have made this post on the BBC site, as well. URL: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/talking_point/34410 P.S. The above posted statement is a crux of my reasons for posting on this site. Pera Bora Ottawa Canada Thursday January 29, 2004 at 1:02 pm My ass at your service mr Godfred Louis-Jensen F Y US Thursday January 29, 2004 at 1:19 pm URL: http://www.b92.net/english/news/index.php?start=10& Arandjel, when I was referring to false accusations of Anti-semitism this is what I was referring to. I strongly believe that this is not a mistake but has a huge propaganda value for the parties that you were so kind to list. Please, do not correct me on this one. I agree that we have different opinion on it. Scandalous” claim of anti-Semitism in elections | 12:11 | B92 STRASBOURG, BELGRADE -- Wednesday - Serbia-Montenegro’s delegation at the Council of Europe Parliamentary Assembly has described as scandalous a report by the Council’s monitors on last month’s parliamentary elections. The report was submitted yesterday, causing outrage from the Belgrade representatives. Delegation chief Radoje Prica singled out one section which claimed that parties standing for election displayed anti-Semitic tendencies. Prica says the delegation had been shown an early draft of the report which praised the conduct of the elections and Serbia’s progress in transition. A new version, first seen by the Belgrade delegation during a meeting of the Council’s Legal Commission, raised objections to the fact that Hague Tribunal defendants were included among the candidates of some parties. “We were particularly surprised to hear claims of the revival of nationalism and anti-Semitism among all parties. This is ridiculous, and especially ridiculous is the claim that there was support for several anti-Semitic parties and that anti-Semitism and nationalism are on the rise,” he said. Belgrade’s ambassador to the Council of Europe, Sladjana Prica, played down the report, saying it had no weight as a legal document. However, she added, the response from the delegation at yesterday’s meeting was appropriate, given that the opinions expressed in the report could influence Council policy-makers. A representative of local election watchdog the Council for Free Elections and Democracy told B92 that it had not noted any anti-Semitism. Mark Todorovic said that a certain degree of vilification had been observed during the campaign, but that it had been less than in previous elections. “I would like to see the justification for making these claims,” he added. Journalists in Strasbourg sought an explanation from the Council bureaucrat who wrote the report, but he avoided responding when asked on what grounds the claims of anti-Semitism in Serbian political life were based. No anti-Semitic parties, say local Jews | 13:32 | Beta BELGRADE -- Wednesday - The Alliance of Jewish Communities in Serbia-Montenegro has dismissed claims of growing anti-Semitism in Serbia. Alliance official Aleksandar Gaon told media this morning that no anti-Semitic arguments had been noted in the platforms and statements of party leaders during the campaign for last month’s parliamentary elections. “There is anti-Semitism in some forms, some articles, statements and interviews, but by individuals, not party officials. This is a democratic society and anyone may say whatever they want to,” he said. P.S. Any body can choose to correct people on anything. I prefer to correct people on major issues. For example I am thinking that yesterdays duel between Ana and A.Q. was not very productive and that differed peoples attention from more important issues and findings. I have not posted anything on that because I taught that it would be useless. When I do not respond to some direct questions it means that I do not have time to engage on minor issues when more important are around waiting to be addressed. I am using my brain to the best of my capabilities. I am sorry that I have not met your standards. Pera Bora Ottawa Canada Thursday January 29, 2004 at 1:47 pm Still celebrating chinese new year, my penis is very large at this moment thats your fault mr.Bora you naughty boy you really turn me on. Arben Quosja Chicago USA Thursday January 29, 2004 at 2:02 pm I remember your mother was always ready to help people out in such situations . Want Some more Lika Thursday January 29, 2004 at 2:26 pm http://www.setimes.net/html2/english/020618-SVETLA-002.htm Croatia Census Finds Substantial Drop in Ethnic Serb Population (HINA, DPA, Reuters - 17/06/02; Institute for War and Peace Reporting - 14/06/02) Croatia's National Bureau of Statistics announced Monday (17 June) the results of a population census conducted last April. The first headcount since the end of the 1991-1995 war for independence in Croatia found a 6 per cent drop in the country's population, which now totals a little less than 4.5 million people. But census results also suggest a steep decline in the number of ethnic Serb residents, compared with pre war figures: from almost 600,000 in 1991 to about 201,000 people. Some 93 per cent of residents identified themselves as Croats. Ethnic Serbs now make up a little over 4.5 per cent of the population, down from 12.5 per cent in 1991. All national minorities in the country total less than 332,000, or almost 7.5 per cent. Dakic Ana Serbia Thursday January 29, 2004 at 2:49 pm Ana, Your post shows how remarkable results has International Community accomplished in preserving “multi- ethnicity” in the territories of Former Yugoslavia. This is direct result of what they call Humanitarian Intervention. The biggest obstacle for this to be reversed is the ICTY with its unbalanced treatment of the Serbs which amounts to cover up and direct involvement in prosecution of people because they are Serbs. This is quite a formidable war crime. USA did in Serbian Krajina better job then Ustasas and German Nazis. Carla are you blind? Pera Bora Ottawa Canada Thursday January 29, 2004 at 2:50 pm 600000 - 201000 = 399000 Serbs "ethnically cleansed" from Croatia to be precise and this is based on Croatia census done by Croatians themselves. I guess its closer to half a million than to quarter of million. I just can’t remember on what bus I heard this and I feel very ashamed that Serbs made Croatians do this (just like I feel very ashamed as a Serb that Serbs made Ustasa kill almost 600000 Serbs in Jasenovac - based on Simon Wiesenthal Center - http://motlc.wiesenthal.com/resources/courage/p20.html http://motlc.wiesenthal.com/gallery/pg19/pg5/pg19533.html ) Dakic Ana Serbia Thursday January 29, 2004 at 3:09 pm Ethnic Group Population Kosovo 1981 % of total population Albanians 1,226,736 77,4 % Serbs 209,498 13,2 % Muslims7 58,562 3,7 % Roma 34,126 2,2 % Montenegrins 27,028 1,7 % Turks 12,513 0,8% Croats 8,717 0,6 % Others 4,584 0,2 % Yugoslavs8 2,676 0,2 % TOTAL 1,584,441 100 % Dakic Ana Serbia Thursday January 29, 2004 at 3:33 pm Today Albanian 88% Serbian 7% Other ethnic groups 5% Dakic Ana Serbia Thursday January 29, 2004 at 4:21 pm Godfred: Thank you for presenting Article 7(1) of the Statute of the Tribunal: Now at last I see the source of your confusion. It is the Humpty Dumpty factor introduced into this revised version of the indictment by Carla in Wonderland using the de jure and de facto powers available to her: or some such equally exotic mumbo jumbo. Do you know they actually get paid a bundle for doing this stuff! You remember Humpty Dumpty? He was the fat geezer with the pointy-head and schoolboy cap who replied - in a rather scornful tone - to Carla’s … sorry no … Alice’s question thus: “When I use a word it means just what I choose it to mean, neither more nor less.” So I get it: when the indictment says “committed” it does not actually mean “committed” it means whatever Carla wants it to mean on that particular day. So what if she’s having a bad hair day? Tough? They’re not daft at Nato you know. This is how they pick these people: They call them in one at a time and ask: “What do two and two make” until the reply comes back “What do you want them to make?” However none of this helps your case in denying the “ordering” of murder by Milosevic for Carla has not gotten round to redefining “ordering”. I believe she’s currently busy with “Genocide”. And worse it does not matter which of the many indictments one refers to they all make the same specifications about Racak: shuffled around in the document under different references to make it look like its new work. Nice work if you can get it. But surely there’s hope for you yet in the form of a future revision! Lets face it all these manifold indictments and revisions are crap. Why do they need so many? They may be solid gold crap - in view of the millions of dollars spent on them - but they are still crap. Doh! that’s it: the bottom line. Does anyone know how one gets such a lucrative job helping to draft these indictments? Just to show I’m serious I’ve knocked one off for free in view of del Ponte’s tardiness - almost five years - in realising her promises to nail the leaders of the KLA for their many and ongoing crimes against humanity. Here’s a sample of its contents for the region of Racak: 98. Beginning on or about 1 January 1999 and continuing until the date of this indictment, forces of the KLA and Nato, acting at the direction, with the encouragement, or with the support of Hashim THACI and Anthony BLAIR … have murdered hundreds of Kosovo and Serb civilians. These killings have occurred in a widespread or systematic manner throughout the province of Kosovo and Serbia generally and have resulted in the deaths of numerous men, women, and children. Included among the incidents of mass killings are the following: a. On or about 15 January 1999, in the early morning hours, in the vicinity of the village of Racak (Stimlje/Shtime municipality) police officers were attacked in an ambush by forces of the KLA. Including an attack a few days earlier three police officers were murdered and one severely injured. Also several civilians were injured. In the ensuing battles with the KLA terrorists police, who attempted to take cover from the KLA terrorists, were shot throughout the vicinity of Racak. A group of approximately 20 policemen died while attempting to load casualties into ambulances when the KLA attacked them with heavy mortars, anti-aircraft guns of heavy calibre, RPG’s and a variety of small arms including Kalashnikov machine guns. Later a further 17 police were ambushed and killed and mutilated. In yet another ambush a further 7 policemen carrying out their duties were ambushed and killed. Altogether, the forces of the KLA killed approximately 47 Kosovo policemen in and around Racak. (The names of those policemen killed are set forth in Schedule A, which is attached as an appendix to this indictment.) … 100. By these actions Hashim THACI and Anthony BLAIR … planned, instigated, ordered, committed or otherwise aided and abetted the planning, preparation or execution of: Deportation, murder, persecution. A list of names of the 47 police officers murdered in the vicinity of Racak follows immediately in Schedule A. Easy peasy: money for jam! When can I start? Peter Taylor Herts/UK Thursday January 29, 2004 at 4:46 pm I see Alexa P Vucelic aka AP V is up to his juvenile antics, impersonating me yet again. He wishes he could be Albanian but, to no avail. AP V, inorder to be Albanian, you must first be a human being. You seem to be preoccupied with other people's sex organs. You should have become a priest. You certainly have the psychological profile for it. Dobro noche Arben Qosja Chicago USA Thursday January 29, 2004 at 6:29 pm 1. Milosevic should be found guilty at the ICTY of doing no good for YU over 10 years. NATO and co should be found NOT guilty of doing YU no good over 10 years. End of case. 2. More importantly, Balkans will be maintained as a hot zone to replace the Middle East when the Israel/Palestine matter is solved soon. ICTY role is to PREVENT any possibility of reconciliation by blaming a single part, namely Serbs, to justify TROOPS in the region. The EU will eventually not want US troops in EU so where better to relocate them than to the new colonies of Albania and the former YU republics? What people like Arandjel and Goran miss is that the Balkans, not just Serbia, will be a dumping ground for waste from EU and US commercial operations in Europe. You guys will be a glowing light for the rest of the world, you'll even end up glowing in the dark by the time the empire is finished with you. Good luck, I hope you manage to stop it with your honest, decent and naive thinking. Milosevic failed but he's still battling, maybe you'll do better! David Oztralia Thursday January 29, 2004 at 10:06 pm In what ways did Milosevic failed Serbia? Would another leader have kept Serbia largely removed from the violence in Bosnia and Croatia. Would another leader have succeeded better in holding YU together. Would others have managed the economy better, given the problems that the collapse of Russia caused YU. Would better propaganda have altered the positions of the various players. Would other leaders have avoided NATO's war on Serbia, and if so, would the occupation of Serbia rather than an occupation of Kosovo, have been a fair price to pay for peace. Was Milosevic to blame for the sanctions on Serbia being largely enforced, or was this yet one more force undercutting your economy. Given the facts, and trying to be reasonable about what can be expected from a reasonable leader, would one conclude that Serbia was blessed with having an able and intelligent man at the helm, or deserving of better. Would Serbia have faired better if George Bush had been at the helm, faced with steering the ship of Serbia through storms. My gut feel is probably not.. on the one hand under George Bush, you'd have been printing money you didn't have, and on the other you'd have been saying to Bosnia, Croatia, Kosovo, the US, Germany, etc "Bring it on". If it is thought that George Bush could have done more damage to Serbia than Milosevic, should I then applying your logic argue that George Bush is equally deserving to be found guilty, merely on the grounds that Serbia (or for that matter the US) really deserved better. Behind all of the political retoric, what actually are the facts as seen by Serbs? I don't think this is a question which is well served by my side good/your side bad. The real issue is, in Milosevic's place, what would you have done differently? Ian Davis Waterloo Ontario, Canada Thursday January 29, 2004 at 10:19 pm Not only does America deserve better than it elects; it also jails some better than it elects. I applaud the courage of Kathy Kelly. Then conquer we must, when our cause it is just, And this be our motto: "In God is our trust." Ian Davis Waterloo Ontario, Canada Thursday January 29, 2004 at 10:32 pm Ana as regard to the Number of Serbs in Croatia: In 1981 there was 11,5 percent of Serbs and 8.24 % of Yugoslavs, Others 3.61% out of 4,578 million inhabitants in Croatia. Serbs: 11,5 % out of 4,578,000 = 526, 470; Yugoslavs: 8.24% out of 4,578,000 = 377,227; Others: 3.61% out of 4,578,000 = 165,265; It is fair to say that half Yugoslavs were of Serbian origin; what is around 188,000. (And after 1990 they declared them so) Then the number of Serbs in 1981 would be close to: 714,470 (526,470 + 188,000) If you add to that number average birth rate in Croatia and Slovenia (as lowest one in Yu) during 80 ties you got number to close to 900,000 Serbs living in Croatia on the beginning of nineties, without others 165,265 (mostly people from mixed Serbo-Croatian marriages). The data could be verified here: From the link provided above: ”A census was held in the former Yugoslavia in early 1991. Although the data are available, they are not used here, since the tense interethnic situation at the time seems to have biased the results…..” Pero Peric Canada Thursday January 29, 2004 at 10:42 pm

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- Thursday January 29, 2004 at 10:44 pm
  Sorry the link should work here:

  Census 1981
  Pero Peric
  Canada

- Thursday January 29, 2004 at 11:47 pm
  I have a passion for finding what I consider useful sources of information. Assuming that I'm not alone in this, there are a large number of URL's people might want to examine/bookmark that are linked from:

  2003 Koufax Awards Finalists.

  In particular, those interested in Iraq, may find Informed Comment a useful site. Looks like Juan Cole may win best expert blog this year.
  Ian Davis
  Waterloo
  Ontario, Canada

- Friday January 30, 2004 at 12:22 am
  One more time Arangel and ‘polako” slowly so you can understand what I said in my post that has offended you. If you support the government that was bought with American dollars, the government that sent Milosevic and some of the generals who put their life on the line to The Hague you should be ashamed. Everyone should have the right of lawful, peaceful assembly and protest. I support that.

  You accuse Milosevic of breaking the law and yet you support a government that came after him that broke every law of former Yugoslavia and Serbia. There is no justice in any society where the guardians of the legal system break the law in order to enforce it be they Milosevic, Kostunica or the quisling Gjingjic. The NATO inquisition is another example where a “crime is anything that a group in power chooses to prohibit.”

  What you don’t seem to understand is that not everyone was against Milosevic. You fail to understand that I said that the media can use the same crowd to misrepresent the event. They can make a small fight into a riot. They can make a Racak into a massacre. They can make a Croatian provocation into a Serbian act of aggression.

  I don’t need to explain to you anything about Serbian sons and daughters since I lived through a much worse horror than you and in the process lost a father, four uncles and five cousins in a small village of six families. We survived eating stinging nettle and acorns. So cry me a river that things are hard. Place the blame where it belongs and don’t preach to me about the Western Media. Orwell’s 1984 is becoming more prophetic. Read Bipartisan Empire and you will see how the Big Brother cares about you.

  Arandjel you write “Serbian people care about their future” and in the next sentence you tell me that the best left the country. Over 85, 000 draft dodgers fled the country when it needed them the most so don’t tell me about their realism. They should have been realistic prior to 1990. They should have worked a little harder, compromised a little more and they should not allow someone else to solve their problems.

  The passionate controversies of this as you call “dinosaur” are viewed as stupid preoccupations by the genius of Arandjel. Arandjel “knowledge alters what we seek as well as what we find” and you will discover honor and pride only when you get off of your knees.
  Walter Trkla
  Kamloops
  Canada

- Friday January 30, 2004 at 3:17 am

  I still cant use internet regularly, so at this point just want to make a quick prelude:

  "...so much that would have been taken for granted by socialists and artists alike sixty or seventy years ago -- an elementary hostility, for example, to bourgeois morality, patriotism, the forces of law and order, religious superstition -- is virtually unknown in intellectual circles today. "
  from "The Aesthetic Component of Socialism By David Walsh"
  Goran Mihajlovic
  Yugoslavia

- Friday January 30, 2004 at 3:39 am

  Ian Davis

  Try reading my post again for a proper interpretation. Milosevic didn't "fail Serbia"! He lost the battle to keep YU and the Balkans independent. Seems to me he made a pretty good fight of it, but with the NWO and even a substantial 5th column from Serbia itself, he was up the creek without a paddle. If anyone expected any more of him they must be looking for a new Messiah! The fact that it took the bloodsuckers 10 years to destroy Serbia speaks volumes for his efforts, particularly with the immense power arraigned against Milosevic. Most other places would have collapsed long, long ago.

  Now that it has finally collapsed, the same 5th column can bask in western style democracy and the warm after-glow of getting rid of a "tyrant" and in the industrial and nuclear waste dump which the Balkans and Eastern Europe are earmarked to become. There won't be too many Milosevices left to put up a resistance and it may take another 500 years before they shed their shackles again.

  Walter Trkla

  Your most recent post is a beauty! Pity it will fall on deaf ears and a brain laundered by Soros and co. It seems a huge task to get some people to understand that Milosevic should NOT be in the Hague "because he did no good for YU". It seems an even bigger task to get them to understnad that it is not Hague's role to punish Milosevic for doing YU no good. And it seems an even bigger task for some to understand that a verdict at the Hague against Milosevic is a NOT GUILTY verdict for Nato, for acts both before, during and after the bombing. It is a license for NATO/NWO to conquer, destroy and colonise whichever state or nation or country it chooses WITHOUT legal basis and on a FAKE morality basis. First they do the destruction, THEN the legal basis follows courtesy of the ICTY and Hague puppets. And if things don't fit within the new law, then just change it as you go along to suit, as per the ICTY farce.

  Arandjel

  Here's another tip from yet another not so prehistoric dinosaur... Don't let the vEMPIREs suck on your blood and tell you it's for your own good. Killing Milosevic via the Hague is NOT going to improve things for you at all, unless of course you get off on that. What it will do is justify the flood of fake propaganda charges against the Serbian people and allow the EMPIRE to suppresss their freedom loving instinct for time immemorial because of their "well documented and legally proven disposition" for racism, genocide, crimes against humanity and all the other things Serbs have been blamed for in the last 10 years! You have little idea of the anti-Serbian, NOT just anti-Milosevic media campaigns in the West for the last 10 years. Your support against Milosevic and the former Serbian leaders at the ICTY is like writing a blank cheque for your new masters and spitting on the centuries old traditions and heroism of your people in achieving independence. Good luck to you.
  David
  Oztralia

- Friday January 30, 2004 at 3:51 am

  PS Arandjel... Do read some of Nebojsa Malic in his Balkan Express column in Antiwar.com . It might just give you an idea about how things work in the wild west and where you fit in. He doesn't miss much for a YOUNG dinosaur who's seen it from both sides!

  'Nebojsa Malic Column'
  David
  Oztralia

- Friday January 30, 2004 at 6:36 am
  How much money has soros spent on drugs and neoliberal propaganda for these "students"? how many times will a naive mind be fooled? Goran! stop smoking that crap
  ... ...
  ...

- Friday January 30, 2004 at 6:59 am

  What good has Milosevic done during his decade long rule?

  I agree with Ana’s reply: "absolutely nothing"

  As to those who have found their hero in Milosevic, I must say that it is nothing new under the sun that sections of middle class identify themselves with petty-bourgeois nationalists, Stalinists, guerillas, and so on, like: Castro, Mao ZeDong, Saddam, Gadaffi, Milosevic and a long list of their ilk. But it is surprising how no lessons are taken from history, and indeed, from what we can observe in front of our own eyes. Not long ago, once an outspoken enemy of the West, colonel Gadaffi has surrendered his weapons to USA and is hoping to become their ally. Saddam was trying in vain to cut a deal, and when arrested, the first he said, if we can trust the news, is that he wants to negotiate. Castro is putting all his hopes in tourism and in foreign investment. And so long and so forth.

  Milosevic was a right wing politician who dreamed to find an accommodation with multi-national capital. He was selling his country as much as he could, including telecom, and he would sell everything to extend his rule. In court he tries to prove that he was a good friend with all those western politicians, representatives of imperialism. Contrary to how one of participants on this forum portrays him: "his stunning determination to fight unfairness, illegitimacy and indecency. Against all odds, he managed to do the unthinkable - take Justice to Court.", he was throughout interested only in saving his own skin. His wife, "socialist" Mira Markovic in an interview to the western press, once asked Bush to release her husband, as it would be a "truly nice move", or something like that. The problem is like with Saddam that they are not interested any more in dealing with him.

  He still tries to destroy Yugoslav people by constantly supporting Seselj and his fascist party, who are now near to winning the government. He would prefer the Satan on power in Serbia, if only he perceived that it would help his interests. That's the truth about Milosevic. And what is there to be proud of fascists winning elections in Serbia. Is that something worth to be proud of?

  Somebody wrote: “on the other hand we will never know the scenarios, conspiracies, foreign interferences, geopolitical interests, economical interests that motivated Slobodan Milosevic to take such decisions”. What a recipe for apologetic attitude toward any ruling elite. How it is difficult to all those people on power to keep their slaves in chains. We poor servants could never understand how much they sacrifice for us.

  Now, remains something to be said about what could be done differently by different government than Milosevic’s. I leave that part for the next time, but I am really amazed how you people, on the beginning of the 21th century perceive that nothing could be done in a country that even professors on universities still don’t use internet, and so on. Obviously the greatest thing that could be done was to base ones politics on the struggle for equality and living conditions of the working people, instead of nationalism and embracement of big capital. Being part of the international struggle of working class, making a good example, instead of balancing between imperialism and bankrupt Stalinist and nationalist regimes around the world.

  Goran Mihajlovic
  Yugoslavia

- Friday January 30, 2004 at 7:15 am
  Gorane I agree with most you said but question still remains: what is he charged with? If he was charged with what he has done that would be OK. But he isn't and he is charged with things he has not done in order to cover illegal secession and destruction of Yugoslavia. And in that process Serbian people is also charged. You see I find fascinating that US government is able to close session in ICTY to be able to edit court records before releasing them and all this to protect interest of USA. Current Serbian government is so afraid to be identified with Milosevic that they do not even have representative that is going just to observe trial and protect Serbian interests. This trial will have impact on the future of our country and those interests MUST be protected. Our government has to have somebody observing trial and reporting to the Security Council every irregularity. Because today maybe Kostunica (or anybody else in any country of the world including Croatia and Albania and Kosovo) would be good, but tomorrow if he does not comply, he might be charged as well with "joint criminal enterprise".
  Dakic Ana
  Serbia

- Friday January 30, 2004 at 7:17 am
  Pero Peric, Thank you for your link I could not find it:)
  Dakic Ana
  Serbia

- Friday January 30, 2004 at 8:24 am

  Now even The New Yorker likes the American EMPIRE
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Shangri-La

- Friday January 30, 2004 at 8:40 am

  In response to Ana -- Yes, perhaps I missed to explicitly state, maybe because I thought it to be obvious, that this trial is staged by imperialism and is serving their purposes. The interest of the international working class is to expose both the imperialists' intrigues and those of their petty-bourgeois agencies, like nationalists Milosevic, Tudjman, Kostunica and all the others from the same gallery. In all that, I identify myself with the cause of socialism instead of with this or that state or nation, and wish to note that there is no such homogenous entity as “Serbs”, “Americans” and others on the first place, since they are all composed of opposed classes of exploiters and exploited, both of which are much closer with their brothers across the borders, than with an opposing side inside respective countries. In the same token, I don't think this trial will have such a great impact on the destiny of people in Yugoslavia. There are much more profound processes going on in the world, and I believe that there would be major changes soon, connected with the emergence on the world scale of the new movement of the working class for genuine socialism, as present situation can not last for long and the poisoning impact of Stalinism, social-democracy and nationalism is being recognized by ever more people.

  Goran Mihajlovic
  Yugoslavia

- Friday January 30, 2004 at 9:28 am
  From wich point are you going to change the word, Goran? from space? That intercontinental citicen-of-the-world-rubbish is exactly what Soros expect from you! Good boy!
  ... ...
  ...

- Friday January 30, 2004 at 9:29 am
  World
  ... ...
  ...

- Friday January 30, 2004 at 9:58 am
  Peter Taylor,

  Re: Your posting of January 29, 2004 at 4:21 pm

  Well done! Should you be in need of a reference I would only be happy to comply...
  Godfred Louis-Jensen
  Copenhagen
  D E N M A R K

- Friday January 30, 2004 at 10:09 am
  Goran - I would agree that Radical Party is a nationalist party.

  However could you clarify notion of fascism, so we would know that we are using the term that we all understand?

  I am in Canada, and most likely I do not have enough information to see the whole picture on Serbian political stage. What I think I know, Radicals are today the only major political party in Serbia, among others "big four", which did not receive money from these $100 milion approved by kongres, and these DM70 approved by Bundestag to support democracy in then Yugoslavia from Budapest.

  It might be that my lack of information see your perception of Radicals as labelling; and that you are in fact trying a priori to disqulify them as political oponents.

  I am perceiving that there could be more people who might share my opinion; in order to avoid such a confusion would you please kindly explain why do you think Radicals are fascists?

  Pero Peric
  Canada

- Friday January 30, 2004 at 10:42 am
  Dakic Ana,

  Have you been to Kosova lately, or should I ask: have you EVER been to Kosova. Your population statistics about Kosova are EXTREMELY incorrect. Actually, Albanians make up approximately 95% of the population (and growing). All thanks to Milosevic!
  Arben Qosja
  Chicago
  USA

- Friday January 30, 2004 at 10:50 am
  And by the way, nobody can fuck pigs, boys and small animals like me! All thanks to our Albanian acient tradition
  Arben Qosja
  Chicago
  USA

- Friday January 30, 2004 at 10:54 am
  But not you, Ana i wouldn´t touch you, not because of your pigserbian origin but i prefer men and lambs.
  Arben Qosja
  Chicago
  USA

- Friday January 30, 2004 at 10:58 am
  Arben can I go to "Kosova" as a turist to visit?
  Dakic Ana
  Serbia

- Friday January 30, 2004 at 11:00 am
  BTW the cualit of your posts is getting better every day. Keep up!
  Dakic Ana
  Serbia

- Friday January 30, 2004 at 11:07 am
  The previous post is not mine but that of the sick and vulgar Serb named Alexa Vucelic of Mansfield, Ohio. Recently released from the Ohio State Mental facility for pederasty. To the Moderator: Is there any way to prevent vile creatures such as MR. A. Vucelic aka PM V from debasing the discussions on this forum by impersonating others.
  Arben Qosja
  Chicago
  USA

- Friday January 30, 2004 at 11:25 am
  NOT ANY OF THIS IS POSTED BY ME, i write only serious stuff!
  Arben Quosja
  Chicago
  USA

- Friday January 30, 2004 at 11:31 am
  Arben, is it your "ancient albanian tradition" or are you just another gay-lunatic?
  D D
  Florida

- Friday January 30, 2004 at 11:33 am
  What´s the difference?
  Mary B
  Ohio

- Friday January 30, 2004 at 11:37 am
  Discussion of what Milosevic is guilty of? Almost every article about Milosevic states that he "started four wars in the former Yugoslavia." An honest person could find out that this is false just by tracing the major events of the last 15 years. Who might be interested in doing that? The journalists are too involved in bolstering their own reportage of the past. The man in the street still doesn't know who is who. Anyway, you wouldn't need a tribunal to find that out. Any time I see it written, I write a letter to the editor.
  Nikole J
  Canada

- Friday January 30, 2004 at 12:38 pm
  Arben, I've spent a lot of time in Kosovo, but I've never been to Kosova, thank God. Nor is it a place that one can visit without a military escort. The reason there are so many Albanians relative to Serbians in Kosovo was initially due to the high birth rate among the Albanians, contrasted against the normal birth rate among Serbians. That plus the policy of harrassment of the Albanians toward the Serbs for decades in order to push them out of Kosovo and Tito's punitive policy about Serbs who leave Kosovo not being able to return. The recent additional rise of the ratio of Albanians in Kosovo to Serbs and other minorities there has been thanks to NATO. But even the NATO members who have been there or are there now can't stand you, yet it would be losing face to broadcast that too widely now. But I know how they feel. I have been in direct communication with one of the early 2nd in command of NATO in Kosovo and, believe me, the Albanians are not popular with the soldiers on the ground. If things were different, they might have my sympathy, but as it is...tough luck.
  Anna P
  California

- Friday January 30, 2004 at 12:43 pm
  Arben apart from that odd sexual behaviour of yours, have you been cutting of any heads recently?
  D D
  Florida

- Friday January 30, 2004 at 1:01 pm

  I can not agree with posters that are saying that Mr. Milosevic has done absolutely nothing during his rule of 10 Years. The crux of the case against him and Serbs at the ICTY and explanation why Serbs are guilty of everything is that Serbs are intolerant bastards who are incapable of living in peace with their neighbours of other nationalities or fates.

  Contrary to this, now days, common cliché Mr. Milosevic has preserved multi-ethnicity and multi ethnic society in all the territories that he and his government ruled under impossible conditions as long as he had full control over them. None of the other leaders of former republics of Former Yugoslavia have accomplished it. None of the leaders of “modern” democratic new states that are overlooked and over pushed by the USA have been able to come close to his record even after many years of their liberation of “Serbian Occupation” Under Mr. Milosevic’s rule, even when Albanians sold out their country to the West, he was able to prevent outrage followed by revenge against them. When this happened Albanians deserted their army and joined occupying force. Serbians in Kosovo haven’t deserted civil defence units, like Kosovo Albanians. It was Serbs and other non-Albanians who were digging out Albanians and their children buried under the rouble produced by NATO bombs. It was Albanians who were picking targets and leading NATO bombers towards their targets. Many Albanians and their children were brought by choppers to the Central Military Hospital in Belgrade to be re-sawed into normal human being after being teared apart by the “Humanitarian Bombing”. Flying a chopper under NATO bombers was quite formidable and risky undertaking done by the Serbs.

  NATO gods have by their inaction in Krajina, Slavonija, Sarajevo, Mostar ,… and Kosovo legitimized revenge against Serbian people. When they decided to destroy Yugoslavia they decided to destroy Serbs because they new that Serbs are glue of Yugoslavia. When you want to destroy a country you destroy its glue.

  If NATO gods wanted ideal country with nation-less citizens in the Balkans they could have accomplished this in the following steps: First they should have gone to the Yugoslavs like for example Mr. Markovic and kindly ask him: “Sir, please how can we abolish communism and preserve country of Yugoslavia” Once when this was accomplished they could have proposed to the citizens of Yugoslavia to adopt new nationality of being Europeans and the next step is …..bla, bla.

  And the big winner is: “Everybody!”

  NATO gods have not done that. That was beyond their imagination. Their first step in “fixing” Yugoslavia was to go to extreme nationalists to ask them: ”Please can you be so kind to help us in destroying Yugoslavia”. They bypassed all the hopeful Yugoslavs and stopped even to consider their identity and interests when Former Yugoslavia was sent to the chopping block and negotiations were held haw to re-saw it. (This is when I decided get re- born form the Yugoslav into the Serb.) It was done exactly according to the Bible. The story is: ”Gardens of Babylon were built very successfully until God came and enriched its builders by distributing to them different languages. After that everything became chaotic and the job was never completed.”

  Who are the rulers of this new nationally purified states of Former Yugoslavia Worst nationalists of their kind. They are kin to continue ethic cleansing of Serbs and continue to purify their territories even more. No action is taken against them by the gods from NATO or the ICTY. Their economies are in ruin not much different then in Serbia, except for Slovenia. Now when we know how utterly economy is destroyed in Kosovo I feel fee to say that Mr. Milosevic was running booming economy in Kosovo. Terrorists are terrorist they do not know to rule, or run anything like economy or follow simple rules like respect thy neighbour.

  And the biggest winner of them all is Albanian Mafia. Please pay attention not Kosovan or Kosovar or Kosovo Mafia but Albanian Mafia. Replacement of Mr. Milosevic as a ruler of Kosovo with Albanian Mafia is quite “an accomplishment for the NATO and the ICTY”

  . Let’s compare directly Mr. Milosevic rule and his accomplishment in preserving economy and multi-ethnicity and multi-ethnic tolerance with Current Western/KLA rules and their destruction of economy, multi-ethnicity and multi-ethnic tolerance in Kosovo. One can only conclude:

  “And the big winner is Mr. Milosevic!”
  Pera Bora
  Ottawa
  Canada

- Friday January 30, 2004 at 1:20 pm
  Amen
  Dakic Ana
  Serbia

- Friday January 30, 2004 at 1:54 pm
  Srebrenica Prosecution Blow

  Trial witness admits giving evidence he gleaned from fellow inmates.

  By Karen Meirik in The Hague (TU 340, 23 January 2004)

  When Miroslav Deronjic, the former president of the Bratunac branch of the Serbian Democratic Party, SDS, took the stand this week to give evidence against Vidoje Blagojevic and Dragan Jokic, the two Bosnian Serb officers on trial for the their role in the Srebrenica massacre, the prosecution hoped he would be an important witness for their case. However, it appeared as if those hopes were dashed when Blagojevic’s defense counsel, US attorney Michael Karnavas poked holes into Dernonjic’s testimony and forced him to admit that some of the evidence he provided for the prosecution he had gleaned from talking to fellow detainees in the tribunal’s detention unit. Deronjic, himself an indictee, was testifying against his former comrades as part of a plea agreement he struck with the prosecution. In exchange for pleading guilty for his role in the destruction of the village of Glogova and the execution of at least 65 Muslims there in 1992, and agreeing to testify against his fellow Bosnian Serb indictees, tribunal prosecutors said they would recommend that Deronjic receive a maximum sentence of ten years. Although he was not indicted for the crimes committed in Srebrenica, prosecutors believed that by virtue of his position in the Bosnian Serb leadership, he likely knew a lot about it. Following the Serb takeover of the enclave in July 1995, Deronjic was appointed the civil affairs commissioner in both Bratunac and Srebrenica. As part of his obligation under the terms of his plea agreement, Deronjic provided a written statement to the prosecution detailing what he knew about the Srebrenica massacre. Exactly what his statement said is unclear, because although the statement was not confidential, the tribunal did not make it available for the public to see. However, it was clear from prosecutor Peter McClosky’s questioning that Deronjic had provided information about what happened on July 11-12 during the Bosnian Serb takeover of the enclave. In four days of unusually hostile questioning, though, Karnavas called into question Deronjic’s reliability as a witness as well as the prosecution’s methods. “It seems strange to me that the indictment talks only about Glogova, while most of the prosecutions interviews were about what happened in Srebrenica,” Karnavas said. He went on to ask Deronjic how it came to pass that he know so much about the Srebrenica operation, and in so doing, forced Deronjic to concede that he gleaned information from other detainees. “I got the information from a couple of the men who were there and who are also her in prison. We talked about the dates and discussed if it was this date or another,” Deronjic said. Karnavas also elicited a confession that Deronjic himself was partially culpable for what happened in Srebrenica. After a particularly aggressive session of questioning, Deronjic admitted that although he did not have “ de jure” authority over the military in eastern Bosnia, in fact, he did have “de facto” authority over it. He claimed that he was the most powerful man in Bratunac in 1995. Deronjic will be sentenced for his own crimes next week. Karen Meirik is a member of the IWPR project team in The Hague.
  Dakic Ana
  Serbia

- Friday January 30, 2004 at 2:11 pm

  Groan:” I am really amazed how you people, on the beginning of the 21th century perceive that nothing could be done in a country that even professors on universities still don’t use internet, and so on.”

  Gorane, how you have come to the above conclusion? Are you reading posts on this board? If an answer is yes, for how long? This statement of yours, as far as I am concerned, has nothing to do with the discussion that is going on this board.
  Pera Bora
  Ottawa
  Canada

- Friday January 30, 2004 at 2:42 pm

  Former Prime Minister Vladimir Meciar, whom the West has attacked for being too authoritarian and for corruption, declared his candidacy in Slovakia's presidential elections due in April.

  History has its ways . . .
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Shangri-La

- Friday January 30, 2004 at 3:02 pm
  Mr Bora there is nothing to correct. I know the report you talking about. While we are looking under the bed for real or imagine enemies maybe you can explain to me motive of the US / EU/ and everybody else to say that there is anti semitism in Serbia? Was this one man or woman thinking that he alone could smear the very clean world image Serbia has in last how many years?

  I would say that your opinion is based in fantasy. Its was probably an idiot who wrote report who does not know what day it is. Or maybe the guy is alien from Mars?

  Im sorry if you see Vojvodina as a minor issue. I dont see it this way or do thousands of refugees who live there. They are very sensitive to people stiring up pot - they already lost their homes. Moronic talk about Vojvodina joining Hungary was propoganda and remains propoganda. The aim was to make Serbs frightened and angry so they would fight. I will fight these cheap lies when I hear them because people died for such stupid propoganda.

  What people like Arandjel and Goran miss is that the Balkans, not just Serbia, will be a dumping ground for waste from EU and US commercial operations in Europe.

  David I appreciate your fight but this fight is not one that we (Serbs) win on our own. Do you think that Serbia its own can resist these operations you talk about? Dont tell me you think that if Milosevic were still President that he would not be doing similar reform that DOS was doing.. Look at Goran post above.

  Ian Davis. This isnt proper place to take point one by one on how Milosevic failed Serbia. But to make it short. He bankrpted country, he was strongest President of former Yug and he didnt stop war, he gave up Krajina, he stopped Bosnian Serbs too late and we lost that as well, we also lost Slavonia. Looks like we lost Kosovo. Did I forget the bombing in Belgrade? He was not democrat, he was opportunist who didnt believe in any philosophy apart from his own power, he used the media to manipulate people to hate but really hate our former brothers, He let militia mafia take control of battlefield and then all towns in Serbia (Arkan example). That enough for now but there is more lot more.

  What could he have done? Easy answer accept the stupid confederation. I supported proposal at this time. Some people did not. But you ask them now they will tell you they dont remember Slovenian proposal or that they wish we accepted confederation. Either Milosevic was completely stupid or really cyncial opportunist. In both cases he screwed Serbian people. The Serbian people are still angry. Look at election result for SPS with Milosevic head of the list.

  Gorane, Ana (I think you know already my feeling on trial - I would try him now in Serbia, actually there still is posibility this can happen charges include stolen money from state, attempt or killing of political opponents and so). I agree Goran on trial and other point. I dont consider myself Socialist but my opinion is closer to socialist ideas than nationalist ideas. What I find most impossible to believe is that some nationalists still think Sloba is hero after all he did to Serbs / citizens of Serbia. It is amazing really. Or not so when most of them dont live in Serbia.

  Walter Trkla law in Serbia dont make me laugh. You think there is law here where the mafia were running everything? Where was law when Stambolic and Curuvija was killed? Agents of law killed them! Where was law when blood was on streets during protests? I tell where law was. Law is government in Serbia. If you dont understand that you dont know anything about this country. Law is still government in Serbia. You think that only DOS broke the law? But its the dignity of sending Serbs away. Thats real problem for you but you hide behind law.

  You ridiculous assmuption that I support DOS is completely not correct. This ridiculous emotive language that people with an agenda use 'traitor' 'quisling' is cheaper than worst FOX journalist. I dont need a lecture in propoganda. Remember I watched it for over 10 years on my television. Not once month, every day new rubbish showing Milosevic peacemaker, Milosevic hero, defender of Serbs. Milosevic patriot who wont let anybody beat Serbs (then everybody beats Serbs). Finally Milosevic in that funny picture at the end when he was desperate to show how big crowds were. How pathetic that propoganda was.

  Mr Trkla how you dont get it because I didnt like Milosevic regime it means I love America or Germany, England? It is so simplistic and stupid to think that way. Germany looks after German interest, England England interest. I dont expect any foreign state to look for my interest. Serbia supposed to look after its own interest. Milosevic was captain of our ship when it went down. He takes responsibility. Stop.

  Over 85, 000 draft dodgers fled the country when it needed them the most so don’t tell me about their realism. They should have been realistic prior to 1990. They should have worked a little harder, compromised a little more and they should not allow someone else to solve their problems.

  What is that rubbish about? Mr Trkla I cant stand cowards who hide behind words. Will you say what you really think about people who didnt want to fight? You blame the people and not the leaders who wanted them to kill each other dont you? Be honest did you want men to die for Serbia plus part of Croatia? Or for Yugoslavia including Slovenia? At time of Slovenia nobody avoided army. When it clear that they were not fighting for Yugoslavia but for Serbia they did not want to do it. Do you remember who said that Slovenia can leave Yugoslavia? What are you talking about let somebody else solve their problems? Say clearly.

  Save the honour and pride speech for Klingon. Serbs are members of human race not animal warriors. You are a scoundrel Mr Trkla. You like quotation so you know what I mean. Maybe you had some experiences in your life that make you value mythical idea like pride and honor but fact is most people finish choking on their sinful pride. Problem is these people always have to try to bring other ones down with them.

  Moderator make page shorter or you wont get me or Goran for probably week.. Again.
  Arandjel Pasic
  Jug

- Friday January 30, 2004 at 3:18 pm
  Aranjel and Gorane i told you, you must stop smoking that shit and come out from that fog so you can see things clearer. you are not fooling anybody you know..
  ... ...
  ...

- Friday January 30, 2004 at 3:25 pm
  Arandjel , are you looking for someone to keep your nose brown? Germany maybe like Quisling Djindjic , or maybe you were for the Rambouillet dictat to have NATO troops on the streets of Belgrade with hungry prostituted Serbian girls offering their services to the occupiers , Milosevic saved you of this omen , are you proud of having YOUR former President been sold to your "Conquistadores" and been put under false arguments on trial in a foreign country? , if this is the case I feel very sory for you and the ones that think that way , Serbia has no room for "izdajice" and she has never had , remember Prinz Pable in WWII "bolje rat nego pact"
  M P
  Panama

- Friday January 30, 2004 at 3:40 pm
  The Serbs got what was coming to them. "Serbs them right." The Serbs deserve people like Milosevic and Seslej. These these "leaders" represent the mentality of most Serbs. I only feel sorry for the few moderate Serbs that know what is going on but fear to speak because they may be beaten to death for telling the truth.
  Arben Qosja
  Chicago
  USA

- Friday January 30, 2004 at 3:42 pm
  sorry should say "PAKT"
  M P
  Panama

- Friday January 30, 2004 at 4:05 pm
  Arben, Just how does it feel to be so full of it? Hyperbole and insulsts from you only serve to show how you suffer from the guilt of your people's past and current escapades in despotism. Serbs have never backed fascists, but Albanians and Croats...well, we all know the history, don't we? Some of us even experienced it.
  Anna P
  California

- Friday January 30, 2004 at 4:10 pm

  Arandjel, I never said that Vojvodina is a minor issue in the context that you are bringing up currently! If I remember correctly you were displeased because I used the name Vojvodjanin for the inhabitants of Vojvodina. I am not one that is stirring up any pot. It is EU/USA and their allies that are stirring the pot.

  I was not looking under the bed or listened to the public on the bus when I was talking about the latest attempt to smear Serbs. It was in the news. I am satisfied with my posted position since the Foreign Minister of SCG and SCG’s representative in the meeting were upset and reacted to it. I think that they were concerned, like me, that somebody in the EU is stirring the pot unnecessarily. Even Jewish community considered it necessary to address this issue and correct what was said on the record. For what reason this was brought up I do not know? I just think that this was not a minor mistake and that it warranted attention and reaction. I am proposing that this “Idiot”, as you call him, knows exactly what the date is and what he and his masters want to happen on some future date. I have no evidence that Europeans/ USA /et al are putting idiots in their commissions. Do you have it?. If the government of SCG starts ignoring such “naïve” omissions Vojvodina will be lost one day.

  I do not see why I would need your permission to express my opinion on this board?
  Pera Bora
  Ottawa
  Canada

- Friday January 30, 2004 at 4:16 pm
  HAHAHA....fuck you When the americans have done what they came for, their will be no serbs to talk about. Its a dirty filthy job, but somebody´s got to do it.
  Arben Qosja
  Chicago
  USA

- Friday January 30, 2004 at 4:32 pm
  Definitely , you need all kinds of people to make this world , good , bad , honest , thieves , brave , coward , generous , miser intelligent , stupid , straight , hosexuals , normal , abnormal , moral , inmoral and insignificant like Arben Qosja .
  M P
  Panama

- Friday January 30, 2004 at 4:39 pm

  Meanwhile the other empire

  Note the NATO expansion East is ignored as possible cause for the exercise. Predictable.
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Shangri-La

- Friday January 30, 2004 at 5:03 pm
  My God, I hate myself for allowing that people like Arben make me feel this way about Albanians. And I can not stand it, because I know for a fact that there are so many nice, honest, hardworking, open and friendly Albanians that Serbs can talk with, live with and just like among Serbs, there are so many people better that this. To everybody: do not let an idiot like Arben paint a hole Albanian nation.
  Dakic Ana
  Serbia

- Friday January 30, 2004 at 5:22 pm
  Anna P,

  My intention is not to insult anyone. However, when I read the nonsense that many people on this board spout, it makes me wonder what planet they are from.

  History shows how nationalisic the Serbs are. Even their epic poetry describes how vicious and cruel the Serbs are. Just read "The Mountain Wreath" by Negros. The same sort of cruelty was inflicted on the Croats, Muslim and Albanians as recent as five years ago.

  The most disturbing thing is the way the Serbs try, rather unconvincingly, to transfer their crimes onto their victims. Then, the Serb nation bands together to perpetuate the lies neccessary to cover up their dirty deeds. This type of behavior has been noted by many visitors to the Balkans over the past few centuries. Read some of Edith Durham's books on the Balkans written around 1900 . You will be amazed how on target her observations are. A common characteristic of the "Heavenly People" is to be extemely brutal during conflicts or wars with their neighbors, even commiting acts of barbaric disfigurement on women and children, and then whinning as if they were the ones to be butchered. Then, they get"The Serbian Academy of Arts and Sciences" to write an "official history" of what happened, using lies and deceit. Some of its "illustrious" members of this academy have been people like Vasa Cubrilovic and Dr.Cosic, a recent Presidet of Serbia, individuals notorious in their own right.

  The Serbian people have been hiding known war criminals like General Mladic and Karadzic, former President of the Republic of Srbska.

  The doctoring of photographs inorder to make their enemies appear barbaric, is another ploy the Serbs utilize. These phoney photos are floated on the internet, showing Croat and KLA soldiers holding heads of supposedly Serb military. These photos are so obviously fake that some of these "Serb heads" have appeared in many different photographs in an attempt to discredit Croatian and Kla soldiers.

  How does Serbia and its people ever expect the civilized world to accept them in the family of decent human beings?
  Arben Qosja
  Chicago
  USA

- Friday January 30, 2004 at 5:28 pm
  Lela Dimic, burned alive with her 6 month old baby. This is lie isn't it?
  Dakic Ana
  Serbia

- Friday January 30, 2004 at 5:30 pm
  On August 16 1999, a six months old baby was burned alive in her home together with her mother Lela Dimic in the center of Prizren
  Dakic Ana
  Serbia

- Friday January 30, 2004 at 5:30 pm
  Investigation of the Pakrac Valley Crimes Reopened AIM Zagreb, October 14, 2000 In early October 1991 Tomislav Mercep's death squadron disembarked in the Pakrac Valley: this gang consisted of people with dubious past, persons for whom the war and murders were the only chance to prove themselves, frustrated young men whom someone very powerful convinced of their importance and entrusted with the task of exterminating the Serbs in the Pakrac region; it was predominantly a group of killers whom the public called the Croatian knights, but who proved their valour by liquidating the Serbian civilians brought from the surrounding villages or by killing a twelve-year old girl Aleksandra Zec from Zagreb. On those foggy October days in 1991, Mercep's fighters broke into Serb houses in the villages around Pakrac, Garesnica and Kutina or took their victims to Zagreb, after which they tortured them in the dressing-room of the football club "Jedinstvo" in the Pakrac Valley.
  Dakic Ana
  Serbia

- Friday January 30, 2004 at 5:32 pm
  Stuff and nonsense! Edith Durham's opinion of the Serbs and Albanians is totally irrelevant. At any rate, considering the kind of crap she writes, I'd prefer to be on the receiving end of her vitriol than to be a fetishized 'little people' that the Albanians are in her mind. She doesn't consider Albanians to be dignified human beings equal to her. For Durham, they are more of a case study, an interesting freak show, a glimpse into the medieval world.

  Otherwise, if you want to discuss travel literature and foreign women writers in the Balkans, the other example would be Rebecca West, who views the Serbs VERY favorably.

  But, then again, I suppose that she too was part of the Serbian Academy of Arts and Scientists, that notorious cabal of genocidal intellectuals responsible for all the misery in the Balkans since its inception in the 19th century.
  P M
  USA

- Friday January 30, 2004 at 5:33 pm
  The crimes of the fascist Ustashe against the Serbs in the notorious camp of Jasenovac must be known - crimes that are the worst ones along with those committed against the Jews in the Holocaust."

  http://www.jasenovac.org/index.asp

  --Simon Wiesenthal
  Dakic Ana
  Serbia

- Friday January 30, 2004 at 5:35 pm
  For Nada Sakic, genocide was a family profession. By birth she was the sister of the first Commander of the Jasenovac concentration camp, Maks Luburic. By marriage she was the wife of Luburic's successor at Jasenovac, Dinko Sakic. Dinko Sakic, 76, still awaits his trial in Zagreb. By choice Nada Sakic was herself one of the commanders of the women's camp at Jasenovac' satellite camp of Stara Gradishka. The Jasenovac death camp complex encompassed some 150 square miles and was the third largest death camp during the Holocaust in terms of total victims. It is believed that some 700,000 people died at the eight sites that comprised the Jasenovac complex. The vast majority of the victims were Serbs, but at least 30,000 Romas and 25,000 Jews also are known to have been murdered there, as well as tens of thousands of antifascists of different nationalities. The names of some 20,000 children murdered there have been collected thus far by historians. Nada Sakic was personally responsible for the deaths of many of these children...

  http://www.jasenovac.org/libraries/viewdocument.asp?DocumentID=96
  Dakic Ana
  Serbia

- Friday January 30, 2004 at 5:36 pm
  According to the Simon Wiesenthal Center, out of 1,750,000 Serbs in the territory of the NDH, at least 600,000 were murdered, 250,000 expelled and 200,000 forcibly converted to Catholicism by the Ustase regime.
  Dakic Ana
  Serbia

- Friday January 30, 2004 at 5:45 pm
  Ana, the fact that Jasenovac was the third largest camp in Europe, in terms of numbers killed, is a well-covered secret. It was second only to Auschwitz-Birkenau and Treblinka. Mr. Zwann, however, would like us to believe that 100000-120000 people were killed in the camp (of which 25,000 were Jews and 30,000 were Roma) - so that leaves us with 45000 to 65000 killed Serbs - riiiiiiiiiiiiiiight, Mr. Zwann. Can you say Nazi apologist?
  P M
  USA

- Friday January 30, 2004 at 6:07 pm
  I was waiting for your predictable response. It is a well known Serb tactic to attack viciously everyone and anyone who might reveal the horrible dark truth about the Serbs. I think the French cartoon conveyed it best by showing a bunch of pigs running around madly knocking over outhouses. The word SERBS was written on the backs of the pigs.
  Arben Qosja
  Chicago
  USA

- Friday January 30, 2004 at 6:16 pm
  Introducing irrelavent arguements to deflect incriminating evidence against them has always been a favorite ploy of the Serbs. Guess what? NO ONE IS BUYING IT, especially the Hague!
  Arben Qosja
  Chicago
  USA

- Friday January 30, 2004 at 7:23 pm
  On August 16 1999, a six months old baby was burned alive in her home together with her mother Lela Dimic in the center of Prizren. Albanians did this!
  Dakic Ana
  Serbia

- Friday January 30, 2004 at 11:07 pm
  Arben Qosja,

  On what basis do you claim that the photo of the KLA holding that severed head is a forgery?
  Andy Wilcoxson
  Washington, United States

- Saturday January 31, 2004 at 1:15 am

  I found no reason to believe that the below interception is not genuine. Transcripts available to those who have completely lost their senses, including that of humor.

  http://www.archinect.com/discuss_cgi/groups/2783.html

  John North
  Canada

- Saturday January 31, 2004 at 1:28 am
  Goran, I don't understand why it is a crime to do no good. We had a prime minister here named Brian Mulroney. I have a book titled "The Mulroney Years".. every page is blank. If Mulroney's crime was merely that he accomplished nothing good, that would be unfortunate but not a crime.

  I can tell you that Mulroney doubled our debt in four years, he gambled with our nations future, talked of rolling dice, tried to come up with constitutional accords which in being rejected across Canada, were extremely damaging to national harmony. He sowed the seeds for a referendum which near destroyed Canada. We voted his party out of office. It went from being the government to having only one seat.

  But Mulroney didn't end up before some international court for these crimes. Mulroney didn't provoke all sorts of nations to start bombing Canada. Mulroney wasn't called all the things I have seen Milosevic called.

  You're going to have to tell me why Milosevic was worse than Mulroney. Saying he did no good is damning with faint praise -- nothing more. I haven't seen any of the people who came after Milosevic doing much good either. How much good have you done, or for that matter I.
  Ian Davis
  Waterloo
  Ontario, Canada

- Saturday January 31, 2004 at 1:33 am
  Pero, for a very insightful if lengthy sequence of articles clarifying the notion of what fascism is and how it surfaces in societies see Rush, Newspeak, and Fascism.
  Ian Davis
  Waterloo
  Ontario, Canada

- Saturday January 31, 2004 at 4:13 am
  Well done, Ian Davis (January 31, 2004 at 1:28 am).
  Godfred Louis-Jensen
  Copenhagen
  D E N M A R K

- Saturday January 31, 2004 at 4:57 am

  "I don't understand why it is a crime to do no good. We had a prime minister here named Brian Mulroney. I have a book titled "The Mulroney Years".. every page is blank. If Mulroney's crime was merely that he accomplished nothing good, that would be unfortunate but not a crime."

  The problem exactly is that you don’t understand that. What can be greater crime than wasting ten or twenty years of life of the whole population? Can you tell me the greater crime than that? And you are so surprised, as if that is a perfectly normal way things should be. One Mulroney spends you ten years, than one Milosevic another ten, than Chirac another ten, Clinton yet another, and that’s not a crime! What a big deal?

  One crucial thing that some participants of this forum apparently don’t understand is that apart from his possible direct legal responsibility for the war disasters, Milosevic without question bears immense political responsibility, and when somebody destroys his people even if it was all abiding to his law, like Maria Antoinette, then regardless of legal responsibility oppressed people usually raise revolution and prosecute such politicians based on the revolutionary will of the people. It is amazing how most simple and plain reason is absent from the mind of some apologists of today.

  If you ask me, despite the fact that Milosevic has done incomparably greater harm to the people than Mulroney, for me they are the same, I would not treat them differently. The same layer of selfish bourgeois lackeys of the ruling system. They all together deprive the whole humanity of the arrival of the greater civilization, which science and technology made possible. At the moment, everything is corrupted by capitalism, mankind is on its lowest, and she could be in paradise thanks to accumulated efforts of generations through history.

  As to Pera Bora’s: “Gorane, how you have come to the above conclusion? Are you reading posts on this board? If an answer is yes, for how long? This statement of yours, as far as I am concerned, has nothing to do with the discussion that is going on this board.”, I think I should be the one to ask you that question. I referred to repeated contentions of some that it was impossible to do anything substantially better than Milosevic did these ten years and more. Memory refreshed?

  And finally to Pero Peric. What one has to do more to qualify for fascist in your book? What is fascism for you? Was Hitler in 1933. only a good German right-wing nationalist, who only wanted to bring work and order, correct injustices done to Germans, catch the thieves and do many more nice selfless things?

  Goran Mihajlovic
  Yugoslavia

- Saturday January 31, 2004 at 5:34 am
  The only Genocide in the former Yugoslavia - however Calrla del Ponte decides to redefine the term - has been carried out by the KLA in Kosovo.

  > The fundamental human rights of Serbs and other non-Albanian communities in Kosovo-Metohija are jeopardized to the point where "we can talk about real genocide without any exaggeration", emphasized Russian MP Anatoly Korobeynikov, a participant in the winter session of the Council of Europe's Parliamentary Assembly currently being held in Strasbourg.

  The only Leaders in the former Yugoslavia not to have been indicted or considered for indictment before their demise are those of the KLA.

  What does that tell us about the ICTY?
  Peter Taylor
  Herts/UK

- Saturday January 31, 2004 at 5:38 am
  Ever heard of Echelon?) Russian sky is under Pentagon"s surveillance 01/30/2004 18:32 Complex electronic systems for operating air traffic endanger Russian national defense. On January 19 Russian Military central Command had secret meeting on air and space defense. The experts came to the conclusion that one of the elements of future Russian Air and Space Defense System, the dual-purpose National System of Operating Aircraft Traffic, can endanger the national defense for Russia. About 10 years ago lobbyists in the Russian government allowed foreign corporations to supply equipment for Russian National System of Operating Air Traffic. Companies from US, Italy, France, Great Britain and even Spain started operating at Russian air-fields, flight routes and the entire air traffic infrastructure. Russian producers of aircraft equipment also participated in international tenders, but only foreign companies received contracts. The reason was obvious: Russian factories could neither give solid commission to the official-"middleman" no to offer him a trip to a prestigious holiday resort abroad for "studying equipment". In 1991 Russian Military Central Command analyzed "Sand-Storm" operation. When this operation was in progress, the Iraqi National System of Operating Air Traffic (manufactured by a US corporation) was simply cut off by the satellite signal. Radars, radio stations, automatic operating systems stopped working. Both Iraqi military and civil aircrafts could neither take off no land. Russian military was alarmed by this, and in April 1993 Russian government issued special resolution on equipping the air traffic operating system. It contained the compromising decision on having minimum 60 percent of Russian-made equipment. This meant that all basic equipment, such as radars and automatic operating systems was supposed to be produced in Russia. Compact radio stations, computers and some mechanisms could be produced abroad. However, Chief of Administration on Using Air Space and Operating Air Traffic Lieutenant-General Mikhail Kizilov said that the government resolution had not been properly executed. Expensive automatic operating systems for air traffic in Siberia and some other remote regions have been purchased abroad. Foreign companies have contracts for modernizing air traffic operating systems in Yakutiya region and the city of Rostov-na-Donu. US companies have>Latest News Russian sky is under Pentagons surveillance Putin's Popularity Based upon Cognitive Consonance "Pseudoliberalism" has no place in Russian history textbooks A new clause in a guidebook FBI Wants Yeltsin and Chernomyrdin's Evidence After Questioning Senator Vavilov the profitable contract for checking-up the technical condition of the air traffic operating system in the region of the Far East (which is of special interest for the USA) and installing the new, US-produced system. Foreign manufacturers acted as allies during the tender for equipping Moscow air traffic operating system. One Russian company and foreign companies from five countries were competing for the contract. The outcome had been predetermined, and the important strategic center connected with air-defense systems and for operating air traffic covering the area of 5 million square kilometers, was supposed to become controlled by foreign companies and the intelligence of their home countries. The secret information of the air-defense system for the Russian capital area (having one-fourth of the overall country industrial and scientific resources) was supposed to be passed to the foreigners developing software, and in addition they charged much money for their services. In 1999 NATO and the US demonstrated new military tactic in Yugoslavia. No "Iraqi method" was applied, the USA had already had the technologies of copying data from Yugoslavian air-defense systems. Spy radio beacons had been installed in the equipment supplied by foreign companies to Yugoslavia. NATO cruise missiles and "smart" air-bombs were pointed at the targets with the help of the beacons signals. By that time Russia had already had plenty of foreign-manufactured equipment in its air traffic operating system. Due to the firm position of the Ministry of Defense Russian companies were granted contracts for modernizing Moscow air traffic operating zone. The Federal Air Traffic Service lobbying the interests of foreign companies, was abolished. After this the special federal program on re-equipping Russian air traffic operation system until 2010 was elaborated. Nevertheless, previously installed foreign electronics is still working within this system. Russia has advanced technologies allowing to make radical changes within air traffic operation without accepting the Western standards, foreign equipment or software. However, the source in Russian Defense Ministry says that in the regions of Siberia and Tatarstan installing of foreign double-purpose equipment is being actively promoted. Probably some regional governors refuse to believe that radars and automatic operating stations can also be the potential enemy"s weapon. The examples of Iraq and Yugoslavia did not convince them.
  Mrya Antonov
  Rossija

- Saturday January 31, 2004 at 6:29 am
  Gorane; One society is not constituted by one man, even though he/she might be a president of a country. There is/was allways people who blamed his/her own failure on somebody else. It is very convinient for you to have Milosevic as regular author of all failures.

  You got a non-stop culprit after Milosevic, again him - even more convinient - But who was a culprit who caused/brought him?

  For your record fascism was/is used as a labelling - it was movement it wasn't one man. That man/labelling was invented for you to easily see bad or good guys, and to have somebody to blame for all yours/ours failures - while God (NVO) would do right.

  "When I said movement I mean it" - Do not be so naive movement is imperialism, komunism, fascism - and don't tell me that Seselj started any of it - and Milosevic is supporting it just for your/Serbian misery and for his interest.

  People here are discussing what should be done (justice) in order to avoid labelling which gives a licence to NVO to..whatever.

  Pero Peric
  Canada

- Saturday January 31, 2004 at 6:32 am
  Correction: NVO - should read NWO
  Pero Peric
  Canada

- Saturday January 31, 2004 at 6:51 am
  Goran Mihajlovic,

  Mr. Milosevic is 'accused' as "individually responsible for the crimes alleged against him" in the Second Amended Indictment under Articles 3, 5 and 7(1) of the Statute of the ICTY (ref. SECOND AMENDED INDICTMENT, Clause 16).

  Whether one accepts this 'accusation' or not, I think that it is safe to say that the ICTY Prosecutor, mrs. Carla del Ponte, and her henchmen and -women have waisted two years and other considerable resources in an entirely unsuccessful attempt at identifying these 'crimes'.

  Although this ICTY Indictment may well be mere 'crap' (as suggested by Peter Taylor, January 29, 2004 at 4:21 pm!) at least the 'trial' at The Hague does not involve accusations for "having done absolutely no good during his decade long rule?" (or, say, for having "wasted ten or twenty years of life of the whole population").

  You may well, personally, regard the actions, reigns of all the Mulroneys of this world as 'criminal', - but they are not, and cannot be charged as such under the Statutes of the ICTY (or under any national law, incl. that of Serbia).

  Could you maybe kindly explain to this forum how your political opinions (and odd questions!) may have a bearing on this JURIST discussion (on the imagined fairness) of the socalled 'Milosevic Trial' at The Hague?

  PS: I regard the documentary evidence for "NATO Crimes in Yugoslavia" (ISBN 86-7549-124-7), as provided by the Federal Ministry of Foreign Affairs under mr. Zivadin Jovanovic during the NATO war of attack on Serbia, as a brave and in fact excellent accomplishment - completed during the 'rule' of mr. Milosevic.

  Would you disagree?
  Godfred Louis-Jensen
  Copenhagen
  D E N M A R K

- Saturday January 31, 2004 at 7:46 am
  “What can be greater crime than wasting ten or twenty years of life of the whole population? “

  I have to disagree Gorane. You see Serbian problem (just like any other nation problem) is that we as a population do not get involved into day to day politics. Example: in Yugoslavia in earlier times, we had “Mesna zajednica” that was a base for recommending, electing pushing your candidate trough. How often any of us went to the meetings of “mesna Zajednica” especially if you lived in towns? Never. In Canada you have political parties, but how often did we as a citizens get involved into day to day politics, by forming our own party of joining other. It is a fault of population that someone is on the power for so long (remember Milosevic was able to form a government and he was elected compared to DOS today). When it came down to it even Milosevic was taken down using vote and enforcing it (5th October). So Population did remove him from the power. As for Mulroney he did even more damage than Milosevic when it came to Canada, but Canada is rich country compared to Serbia so “ population” did not feel it on their skins as much. I guess my point is that population allows people like them to come and stay on position of power by not engaging more visibly into day do day politics and using system that is already in place. You can change system; you can not change man.
  Dakic Ana
  Serbia

- Saturday January 31, 2004 at 7:53 am

  Mrya Antonov

  Interestingg information you posted. The question it comes to mind is if the national Russian industry is now free of unwanted moles.
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Shangri-La

- Saturday January 31, 2004 at 8:11 am
  I think so, this must be of the highest priorety whatever it cost since USA obviously are able to paralize national infrastructure with "a little help" from Am.multinational company. What about microsoft vs. echelon? the world must find an alternative for American hegemony.
  Mrya Antonov
  Rossija

- Saturday January 31, 2004 at 8:27 am

  For the slaughtered and destroyed people it is less important whether present imperfect international and national law is capable of bringing to account a person who was in absolute control of the country for more than a decade. I believe that people are much more interested in his real, substantial and political responsibility. That responsibility is not only for not bringing the working week to 30 hours, creating the most liberal education system, equipping the nation with computers, internet and skills to use them, but is primarily the responsibility for the nationalism and economic policy that resulted in slaughter and total destruction.

  In your opinion ICTY’s acquittal of Milosevic would fit into your understanding of justice. I don't share your opinion. For me acquitting Milosevic would be whitewashing and green light for others to repeat the same in different form. So, if you wish, you can take it as an imperfection of legal system if such people like Milosevic, Bush, Clinton, Blear, Izetbegovic and bunch of others, could just escape their responsibility and enjoy their millions, continuing to play the role in power politics. Do peoples’ lives have any value after all?

  Again, in your opinion, not only that Maria Antoinette would be declared innocent, but would be considered a hero.

  To make it perfectly clear, that does not mean the support for the imperialist kangaroo court. I tried to clarify some more broad and substantial issues involved, agreeing that exposing of fundamental legal violations of the ICTY is a very important task! The problem is that this forum turned into an apology for a man who, in my opinion, would certainly have to be taken to account together with Clinton, Blair, Kohl and others on a genuine court of justice.

  Goran Mihajlovic
  Yugoslavia

- Saturday January 31, 2004 at 8:52 am

  A really stupid statement, often heard is this:

  A little justice is better than none
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Shangri-La

- Saturday January 31, 2004 at 9:08 am

  It could better be said like this: A little justice is a big Injustice!
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Shangri-La

- Saturday January 31, 2004 at 9:48 am
  "The problem is that this forum turned into an apology for a man who, in my opinion, would certainly have to be taken to account together with Clinton, Blair, Kohl and others on a genuine court of justice."

  Yes but they are NOT charged, hense ICTY is partial, hense it become tool of NATO, hense should be closed, hense Milosevic should be charged in Serbian court (far more honest and established than ICTY) by his own people!
  Dakic Ana
  Serbia

- Saturday January 31, 2004 at 9:51 am
  Ps: and for the crimes he actually committed - otherwise a little justice becomes identical to justice served by Stalin and Hitler. Responsibility for the actions taken and crimes actually committed not for made up crime and criminal enterprises.
  Dakic Ana
  Serbia

- Saturday January 31, 2004 at 10:10 am
  30,000 abandoned their dug in positions

  2,541 actual KIA in a series of running battles

  70 identified

  AP V
  NY
  NY

- Saturday January 31, 2004 at 10:48 am

  I generally agree with Ana’s comment. Would only add that the “crimes he actually committed” are, in my opinion, very broad, as if he has stock holdings in almost every crime that is the result of the wars in Yu. Other stock-holders are the rest of the nationalist establishments and foreign powers. “They are NOT charged”. Yes again, hence the accent should be on demanding that all others be exposed and taken to account, and not that he should be absolved. So for me important is to emphasize the responsibility of both Milosevic and all others, and to expose them as a part of the same, and take lessons what capitalism and the rule of profit, and any other system based on exploitation and deprivation of others does to the people. Because the whole war was in the final analysis motivated by establishing and preserving of economic privileges of the ruling elites.

  But what is the only way to achieve the justice that Ana described? The answer is: creation of global mass-movement of the working class for the global change of ruling system of plunder and deprivation. Mere complaints on the details of daily procedure in the trial would not change much, if anything, in my opinion.
  Goran Mihajlovic
  Yugoslavia

- Saturday January 31, 2004 at 11:12 am
  Ms. Dakic,

  I had a two year experience on the New York Times Forum for Balkan and Russia. I have recently abandoned participating, even reading its content. Why? Because the Croatian and Albanian participants there were so hateful, venomous and ugly in their posts that their posts just provoked in me a hate for ALL Croats and ALL Albanians.

  I find that on this Forum a certain Albanian calling himself Arben, ( Is he really Albanian or is he Croatian?) does the same. The methodology is always the same: find the most outrageous falsehood and expand on it. These people also do not shy away from vulgarities.

  What is the medicine? Simple discipline of ignoring their posts and not reading them. It takes some training but it works. Slowly they will resort to more and more ridiculous and obscene claims and statements and this way destroy themselves.

  I invite everybody to try that.
  D. Jovanovic,physicist
  USA

- Saturday January 31, 2004 at 11:15 am
  "Insane in the brain" -happens to you when you smoke to much pot and listens to much Soros-crap. Goran repeats and are supposed to repeat the same naive lies he hear everyday in Europaradise
  ... ...
  ...

- Saturday January 31, 2004 at 1:04 pm
  Aranjel Pasic you finally agree that Milosevic should not have been sent to The Hague or at least you seem to agree. Your four sided FERENGI brain has accepted that much.

  I am actually not a Klingon but I do like them since they value their proud, tradition and they do value honor and as a result their culture has made them an interstellar military power to be respected and feared. It is an achievement for a FORENGI mind to understand the Klingon trait of HONOUR as you write “you value mythical idea like pride and honor”

  I am not a Klingon . I am a Betazoid and we live here close to Kamloops. We are a Civilization of humanoids telepaths and that is why you see my comments as “opinion based in fantasy”. Most of us Betazoids, particularly the ones who emigrated from Hertcegovina who were assimilated into the Betazoid culture did not develop telepathic abilities in adolescence as a result we are viewed as “cheaper than worst FOX journalist, “probably idiots” “alien from Mars” “Moronic talkers” “cheap liars” “stupid propagandists” “we hide behind law” “simplistic and stupid” “rubbish” “cowards who hide behind words” “scoundrels” and we never “Say clearly”. The FERENGI don’t understand us because they lack logic and they only care about money and they will kiss anybody’s ass for it. We, the Betazoids, are troubled individuals generally require extensive therapy to survive in society, since we lack the ability to screen out the telepathic noise of other people. So as you can see Arandjel, we Betazoids are, however, incapable of reading FERENGI, Breen, Dopterian or other reptilian minds, possibly the result of the unusual four-lobed construction of their brain.

  The Betazoids also like poetry and logic and we tend to quote a lot but we only do this to confuse the FERENGI since they only think of self interest. Betazoids, on the other hand, have joined the Federation of Planets because their main interest is elimination of greed and money and our main goal is universal justice and advancement of interstellar species. We recommend to the FORENGI on planet Earth that :

  A little learning is a dangerous thing;
  Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring:
  There shallow draughts intoxicate the brain,
  And drinking largely sobers us again

  Alexander Pope

  Some minor points for my friend the FERENGI. Prior 1998 Belgrade was the safest city in Europe now the Mafia runs everything. The Mafia that rules you sent Milosevic to the Hague.

  Yugoslavia prior to being dismembered by the WEST was a nation where western investment was based on contract law. Today no one wants to invest there because everything is stolen.

  In your posts Arandjel by innuendo you indicate your love affair with the West. I feel that you view of the West and particularly America is not realistic and I will tell you why. I think America’s current unofficial policy of continual war in place of traditional historical diplomacy, whenever and wherever they unilaterally deem necessary, has been around for many years. They were limited, to some degree, as to where they could practice this philosophy. But, the demise of the Soviet Union has accelerated and magnified this conservative perspective and eliminated their (America’s) need for allies. Now, any nation that doesn’t agree with America’s ideas, actions, and beliefs, is suddenly their “foe.” They sell this to their own public by emphasizing that the only country with the will and resolve to “do the right thing” is us, so we must be united. They have also attached this attitude to the “security” of the nation. Anyone, anyone who opposes, either internally or externally, is against America, AND, therefore, willing to jeopardize its security.

  Some people in other countries who are normally America’s allies are afraid to be thought of as opposed to America’s goals. I have had Canadians tell me that we shouldn’t be opposed to America and it’s policies because of their economic power and thus, their potential threat to our own well - being? Arandjel you are one of these people who want others to deal with what is Serbian business so if the hat Quisling fits wear it but I would not wear it with pride since it is a symbol of shame.
  Walter Trkla
  Kamloops BC
  Canada

- Saturday January 31, 2004 at 2:00 pm
  Resistance is futile- Nato
  ... ....
  ...

- Saturday January 31, 2004 at 5:46 pm
  Gorane, I respectfully disagree. Why would I change one master for another? Even if system is changed I have to take someone word that things are going to be better. I prefer to use system we have - democracy- and make laws enforceable and people regardless of the status accountable.
  Dakic Ana
  Serbia

- Saturday January 31, 2004 at 6:03 pm

  To acquit or not to acquit that is the question?

  If Mr.Milosevic is acquitied in The Hague it is win win situation for all the Serbs in the world and at Home.

  Serbs in Diaspora will not be any more harassed by their friends, neighbors, losing jobs, etc. because they are held guilty for the crimes that Serbs never did.

  Serbs at home would get Mr.Milosevic on the plate and had all the time that they need until all the evidence that they have against him is exhausted. I would still expect that the trial be fair.

  If he is not acquitted for the crimes that he has not done it is very bed for all the Serbs and especially for the Serbs in Serbia, and especially for ones that are ethnically cleansed from Croatia, parts of Bosnia and Kosovo. Absurd allegation that they inflicted their tragedy and misery on them would be blown away forever and they will get right to sue for reparations.

  The curtail element of any free society is fair treatment by the courts for all. The courts and prosecutors are accountable, in free countries, for miss treatment of alleged criminals. At the same times it is understood that an act of crime is by it self very unfair act.
  Pera Bora
  Ottawa
  Canada

- Saturday January 31, 2004 at 6:34 pm

  I am sorry, I have to re-post, because my fist post has an important editing error.

  To acquit or not to acquit that is the question?

  If Mr.Milosevic is acquitied in The Hague it is win win situation for all the Serbs in the world and at Home.

  Serbs in Diaspora will not be any more harassed by their friends, neighbors, losing jobs, etc. because they are held guilty for the crimes that Serbs never did.

  Serbs at home would get Mr.Milosevic on the plate and had all the time that they need to prosecute him until all the evidence that they have against him is exhausted. I would still expect that the trial be fair.

  If he is not acquitted for the crimes that he has not done it is very bed for all the Serbs and especially for the Serbs in Serbia, and especially for ones that are ethnically cleansed from Croatia, parts of Bosnia and Kosovo. Absurd allegation that they have inflicted their tragedy and misery on them would stay forever and they will not be able to sue for reparations.

  The curtail element of any free society is fair treatment by the courts for all. The courts and prosecutors are accountable, in free countries, for miss treatment of alleged criminals. At the same times it is understood that an act of crime is by it self very unfair act.
  Pera Bora
  Ottawa
  Canada

- Saturday January 31, 2004 at 7:26 pm
  Goran, re your questions about fascism read the article I cited. I think it very important not just to be able to label what a mature fascist state looks like, but to clearly understand the circumstances under which fascism arises. It is also very important to understand that fascism as it does; not as it looks.

  Re doing no good, I don't think your frame of reference for judging things a fair one at all. You can't judge by consequences, only by acts.

  Our last prime minister Jean Cretien defeated an attempt by Quebec to separate unilaterally from Canada by a vote of 49.8% for, 50.2% against. Demographically the vote in favour of separation was overwhelming. Only three small areas (Outaouais/Montreal/Estrie) of Quebec voted to stay in Canada -- everywhere else in Quebec the vote was in favour of separation.

  By your rules the only difference between Jean Cretien and Milosevic is that one got lucky and went on to be one of our longest serving prime ministers; the other got unlucky and ended up seeing the country he served broken up by forces over which he had no control.

  Re what could be a greater crime than wasted opportunities: Well, planning and waging wars of aggression was considered by Neremburg to be the supreme war crime. I'd say lying about an entire people, stigmatizing Serbs as Jews were once stigmatized a greater crime. I'd say dropping bombs on schools, and hospitals, and passenger trains a greater crime. I'd say that having sex with interns in the oval office of the white house a greater crime than that you accuse Milosevic of; that of doing nothing much good. It quite possibly was the case that the situation was such that there couldn't be winners, only loosers.

  In such a situation is it a crime to be a politician?
  Ian Davis
  Waterloo
  Ontario, Canada

- Saturday January 31, 2004 at 7:36 pm
  Goran, one further point. Bearing responsibility for something is different from being a criminal because of something. I've opposed NATO's bombing of Serbia since before it even started. But I am a Canadian, and that bombing was carried out by my government. I can't run away from accepting responsibility for actions committed by my country. But the fact that I am ultimately responsible for something, doesn't necessary make me a criminal. As President of Serbia, I fully agree that Milosevic bears the responsibility for what happened to Serbia good or bad.. but he might have been as powerless as I to alter things happening which he opposed.
  Ian Davis
  Waterloo
  Ontario, Canada

- Saturday January 31, 2004 at 8:15 pm
  Wesley Clark's interview with "Democracy NOW!" proves the innocence of former Radio-Television Serbia (RTS) director Dragoljub Milanovic.

  See:
  http://www.slobodan-milosevic.org/news/smorg-rep013104.htm
  Andy Wilcoxson
  Washington, United States

- Saturday January 31, 2004 at 8:16 pm
  Ian some who post here see Milosevic as culpable for the acts of others because he did not judge the intentions of the Great Powers correctly and as a result the Serbian people paid a heavy price. The Serbian leaders and intellectuals, in times of crisis, saw the West as proactive with clear aims to dominate the Balkans rather than being reactive to events in that region. Similarly the leaders in the West saw the Serbs as having a desire to dominate the Balkans rather than simply reacting to the interests of the Great Powers. I have always felt that Milosevic was reacting to events beyond his control and trying to save what was not savable.
  walter trkla
  canada

- Saturday January 31, 2004 at 10:42 pm

  Ana said: “I prefer to use system we have - democracy- and make laws enforceable and people regardless of the status accountable.”

  So, after all, the system we have is democracy. How idyllic. This exposes very well that behind this forum is only the Serbian nationalism. Apart from that Serbian nationalism has met with the trouble, the world is otherwise an excellent place of democracy.

  I am puzzled what “Why would I change one master for another? Even if system is changed I have to take someone word that things are going to be better” has to do with anything I said here??! Except if it is the need of Serbian nationalists to obscure the real alternative to their tribal world outlook - socialism?
  Goran Mihajlovic
  Yugoslavia

- Saturday January 31, 2004 at 11:09 pm
  Walter, that would be like declaring Neville Chamberlain culpable for WWII, because he failed to judge the intentions of Hitler correctly. Most people today would say that Chamberlain misjudged things badly, but I think the majority would accept that Chamberlain acted in what he thought at the time the best interests of Britain. He genuinely wanted "Peace in our time". How could anyone familiar with WWI blame him for wanting that.

  I see evidence that Milosevic was a skilled politician; that he manipulated the political process; that he rose to power democratically; that he orchestrated a minor democratically engineered political revolution across Serbia putting supporters in key positions; and did everything in his power to stay in power, perhaps even longer than was right. But the charge that he was a dictator, or that he was the butcher of the Balkans, seem about as inflated as some of the things the republicans are saying about democrats right now.

  Prior to the trial I had percieved Milosevic as if anything one more inept politician;, a bumbling bureaucrat. What this trial has taught me is that Milosevic has some consumate skills; he is able to keep his cool under the greatest pressure; he has a prodigious ability to organise and remember facts; and he employs his keen intellect very effectively in inter-personal interactions. I rather suspect from what I've seen of his abilities over the last few years that what Milosevic couldn't achieve diplomatically as President of Serbia just wasn't achievable.

  More generally, I personally don't see much evidence to suggest that the Serbs did wish to dominate the Balkans, despite that being widely claimed and believed. It seems to me that the Serbs wanted to preserve Yugoslavia, just as the majority of Ontarians wish to preserve Canada. They also would be sympathetic to Serbs elsewhere, just as I am sympathetic to the plight of anglophones in Quebec, and resent the discrimination that they experience in Quebec. But that doesn't mean that Ontarians have territorial desires on Quebec, or a desire to impose political solutions on other provinces against their will. Nor do they wish to skew the political process further towards Ontario's benefit, at the expense of the rest of the country. Our interest is primarily in preserving the status quo.

  Likewise the Croats and the Slovens wanted greater powers for themselves, just as Quebec does, but proved more able to seize such power by force given political realities on the ground, and political support from abroad.

  What I say above is predicated on the perhaps flawed assumption that easily recognised political dynamics in Canada, would remain similar if transported to Yugoslavia. Is this a fair starting point for understanding the break up of Yugoslavia?
  Ian Davis
  Waterloo
  Ontario, Canada

- Saturday January 31, 2004 at 11:24 pm
  Arandjel , there are many different things in your post that we would agree and as well on many of them we wouldn’t agree on; however I really believe that your intentions are honest and for the sake of the other half of the Serbian population I would draw your attention to several of the points you made:

  1.

  ”…What is that rubbish about? Mr Trkla I cant stand cowards who hide behind words…”

  Mr. Trkla told you how much his family compromised then; and how many human lives from his family where lost.
  You are saying that he is a coward standing behind his words. Mr. Pasic little respect would be desirable here.

  2.

  ”…Will you say what you really think about people who didn’t want to fight?
  I think long time ago I replied to you already on that point. You choose (and thousands of the people that Mr. Trkla is referring to) to do whatever was convenient to you at any given time.
  You are still missing the point. In any modern state you have no choice to do it. You do whatever is ordered by state even though you were Muhamed Ali (the same example was already pointed to you). What I meant is that if you do not fulfill the orders you are going to jail for at least 5 years. And believe me “you” will be going to Afghanistan soon and if you refuse you will end up in jail.
  There are no these rights that you as service men can negotiate whether you want to go or not. Here is not the question whether is your duty to protect your own country your duty is and will be as any American, Canadian or Briton is - to go wherever, and whenever (Vietnam, Kosovo, Afghanistan, Iraq) government ordered, if you don’t you end up in jail like Ali did. Western people do not understand refusing orders. You will have to accustom to it.

  3.

  “….You blame the people and not the leaders who wanted them to kill each other dont you? Be honest did you want men to die for Serbia plus part of Croatia?…”

  I have a friend he is in engineer from Serbia, he is very intelligent and knowledgeable, I admire him. For ten years I was telling him that Serbs over Drina had sovereignty and a state before we united with Serbia and that was The State of Slovenes, Croats and Serbs. Last week we again talked about it and he said I know for the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes. I replied to him it is not that state it was the state where Serbs had sovereignty before Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes was formedAnd he replied I did not know that it was another state with a similar name The State of Slovenes, Croats and Serbs - Did not include Serbia nor Bosnia - So it took my friend (from Serbia) 12 years to really hear me that Serbs (where Trkla and myself are coming from) had its own sovereign state without Serbia before Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes was formed.

  I could not care less you did not want to fight for the ‘part of Croatia’ - what I care is your negation of Serbs’ sovereign rights over Drina. If we never united 1918 with Serbia we would have these rights.
  So Mr. Pasic I am asking for the sovereignty what was forcefully taken from us? And we paid that in human lives Mr. Pasic as Trkla pointed to you.

  4.

  “…When it clear that they were not fighting for Yugoslavia but for Serbia they did not want to do it. Do you remember who said that Slovenia can leave Yugoslavia? What are you talking about let somebody else solve their problems? Say clearly…”

  You obviously did not see Serbian car columns in July, August, September… of 1991 leaving Croatia (State of Croats and Serbs) towards Italy and Austria these people were not included in the numbers in 1995 - See the numbers in my previous post. Many of the Serbs then left abroad saying we know that Slovenes, Croats, Albanians and Muslim are fighting for their national independent countries respectively, but I/we have to leave since nobody among us Serbs knew for what we would fight for; was it Yugoslavia, Croatia, as the state of Croats and Serbs, Krajina, Serbia, what type of the Bosnia etc. You are saying that it was clear that it was for Serbia - Who told you that? Ask myself I was in the column.

  5.

  “…Serbs are members of human race not animal warriors. You are a scoundrel Mr Trkla. You like quotation so you know what I mean. Maybe you had some experiences in your life that make you value mythical idea like pride and honor but fact is most people finish choking on their sinful pride. Problem is these people always have to try to bring other ones down with them…”

  Again Mr. Pasic - The experience to lose members of a family, loose home, property and a fatherland is not a “maybe you had some experience.” - And do you really think that we are animal warriors since we still have “mythical pride”?
  Pero Peric
  Canada

- Saturday January 31, 2004 at 11:51 pm
  " This exposes very well that behind this forum is only the Serbian nationalism."

  Goran do you include in Serbian nationalists: Ivan Kokotovic, Andy Wilcoxson,Jari Nousiainen,Gogol Charlemagne, Pasha Ponomarenko,Frank Tiggelaar,Alexei Gorbulski,Pythagoras Crotoniatis,Francois Delon,Pertti Lindroos, Ian Davis, Robert, Dr Kathryn Love,vytas abrutis, Simon Joseph, Jared Israel,Christopher Black,Igor Jaramaz,Jonathan Wells etc?
  Pero Peric
  Canada