MILOSEVIC TRIAL DISCUSSION ARCHIVE

Is Slobodan Milosevic getting a fair trial?
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• discussion archive

• Tuesday April 01, 2003 at 12:00 am
  I followed the forum daily, although I was too busy to properly address the most interesting issues raised; even now I'm pressed for time, but I can not resist to put in a few words. I found a little time to watch the 'trial' today.

  But, first things first: Dennis, welcome back. Your quick mind is a joy to follow.

  The glorious 'war on Iraq' (or rather the glorious demolition of buildings of Baghdad at the moment, preceded by the glorious ride along the desert highways in a Lawrence-of-Arabia-style, accompanied by the glorious throwing of boxes into the crowd of grateful natives) being on everyone's mind, I truly liked the posts here. I believe the 'coalition' can prevail without completely destroying everything either by conventional or nuclear bombs only if the Iraqis prove to be more civilised (or stupidly restrained, I would say) than their brothers in pain, the Somalis, by not resorting to public corpse-dragging of the dead enemies though the streets as the latter people did, which proved to be efficient, since the civilised Westerners saw reason and fled from that country. But, then again, who knows? If the 'coalition' should persist in its arrogance, the Iraqis might do just that, and worse. What are they to do? Their country is under a vicious attack, their people are being killed and crippled, and the valiant Westerners are shocked at the lack of chivalry from the Iraqis? Maybe Bush should have challenged Hussein to a foil-fencing, or a darts game instead? No, he preferred to play with live toy soldiers and it's turning ugly. Well, since it is so difficult to explain anything to an average American other than in the most simple of terms, let me say it with that old but so accurate slogan: YANKEE, GO HOME!

  Any parallels with our case? Unlike us, the Iraqis at least have the opportunity to kill some of the invaders. But, with us there was no 'winning of hearts and minds' hypocrisy, our civilian infrastructure was being deliberately destroyed and it was getting worse day after day, so our 'regime' proved to be more civilised than the bombers, decided to put a stop to the misery of the civilians and agreed to let the UN occupy Kosovo. While we were being bombed, all other countries just stood by and watched and/or cheered. This time around the watching is not so pleasant and the cheers are few and far between. Hopefully, some will even get mad and do something about it eventually.

  Interesting developments on our home-front battle against some criminal gangs: now the ruling group decided to really demolish possible political opponents, by accusing all and sundry of participating in the plot to assassinate Saint Djindjic, 'presidential candidate' Stambolic and possible others: after the Zemun gang, the Red Berets, the prosecutors and judges, now they're targeting the Army, the media, all the political parties outside DOS (Kostunica being the main target), and Milosevic & family, for good measure. Not to forget the Republika Srpska officials. I think Walter has pointed out the right question to be asked: Cui bono? or Who benefits? Some here would claim "motif is not needed'. Pal, when you answer the question of 'Who benefits from the crime?' here's also the motive. The motive of the crime is the benefit someone expect to derive from the crime. Well, in this case the list is a bit longer: DOS, the ICTY Prosecution, Paddy Ashdown, NGOs etc. etc. DOS is the main beneficiary, as a whole (they would have been already disintegrated if Djindjic stayed alive; now they are 'united') and individually (all of them are practically non-entities who would have never risen to prominence in any normal situation). As I said, the main target of their persecution is Kostunica, the most likely winner at any future elections. Their spin against him is quite simple: since it has been 'revealed' that the Zemun gangsters and ex-Red Berets killed Stambolic by order of Rade Markovic, and since Markovic was still kept within the Security when Kostunica became the President - there you have it! Kostunica aided and abetted the killing of Stambolic! And that hateful Kostunica also refused to immediately sack all the Army generals, who are now all under investigation - there you have it! Kostunica is a part of the plot. The ICTY is being helped to a side-dish, by the mud-slinging 'revelations' against already politically removed Milosevic in order to boost their collapsing 'case'; in return, there will be more of those convenient indictments, the immediate possible candidates being all those who are embarrassment for knowing too much, such as Jovica Stanisic, Frenki Simatovic, Nebojsa Pavkovic and the list is to continue.

  What bothers me presently is the total choking off of the media, and not the police patrols in the streets. I like to be able to get to my own conclusions by reading and listening to the variety of reports, and not to be spoon-fed by the same bland propaganda. By having more than one version of events presented, one is able to discard the most wildly unbelievable from the both extremes and somehow glimpse what really happened (yes, the truth is just simply that, what really happened, and not some philosophical category with many dots …….at both ends………).

  Even with the strict DOS-commissars' control accompanied by the slavish auto-censorship in our media, it was possible to find some serious flaws in their spin. For example, few days ago the ruling group triumphantly stated that the 'smoking gun' has been found, the one with which Djindjic was shot, in the form of a 'Heckler und Koch' sniper rifle, buried somewhere in the New Belgrade. They forgot that a few days after the shooting, i.e. before the censorship was imposed, NOVOSTI Daily published a good analysis of an arms expert based on the slug retrieved, according to which the shooting weapon was a domestic rifle 'Zastava' with a telescopic sight. After that, NOVOSTI Daily was admonished, allegedly for writing a piece describing the arrest of one member of the Zemun gang. I don't think this was the reason, why on earth it should be; more likely, it was this rifle analysis. The article had several photographs of different rifles, all described briefly; also the assassinations of politicians throughout history were cited, the Kennedy and the Djindjic shooting being literally the only successful examples of sniper assassinations of politicians (De Gaulle allegedly ducked to kiss a decorated man and was missed by the Jackal; Chirac's potential assassin with a rifle was prevented before the shooting). Not only the man compared the old type 'Carcano' Italian rifle that was used in the Kennedy assassination to our rifle, he also explained that, according to doctors, Djindjic was hit with only one bullet, somewhere between the chest and abdomen, but the calibre was so large that the wound was enormous, blowing up the lower part of his heart and killing him instantly. Not only that, this same bullet subsequently hit also his bodyguard standing close behind him in the lower abdomen, leaving him to fight for his life after two major surgeries, so powerful the calibre was. Only over the next days the story of two wounds on Djindjic became the 'Official Truth'. My question is: how could have he been shot both in the chest and in the back from the same office window to which he was facing when shot? Is this the story of JFK all over again? No wander the media were muzzled afterwards: some journalists were talking to doctors and then wrote what they've heard, for crying out loud. But, with the media now effectively quenched, we are happy to learn that the state of emergency will take as long as it takes (the same as the Iraq 'war').

  And Milosevic 'trial' was again for the most part in the private session, because they had a protected witness. This way, the Chamber can calmly come up with the guilty verdict, based on the 'overwhelming evidence' provided by the anonymous witnesses whose testimony nobody heard. When the session became open, May wanted to know what Milosevic has to say re his health. With controlled disdain, the latter explained that their previous discussion in absentia was pointless and malicious, since he never refused any medication, he only complained to the jail physician about the side-effects of the current one (dizziness and insomnia), so his old medication, the one his Belgrade doctors recommended, was prescribed by the jail doc already at the time of that discussion. Only then, his blood pressure became normal and he had a good night's sleep, for the first time in 2 days. He submitted the signed expert's opinions on both drugs. He finally connected this attempt to disrupt his defence through a disobedient patient story and the requests to revoke his self-representation for the umpteenth time with the current Belgrade media lynching of himself and his wife re Stambolic. He accused the Prosecution of being involved in that, clearly benefiting from his being harassed: persecuted at home, his wife is unable to visit him and lend him her support. The same goes for his Party friends and members of the 'Sloboda' association, who were arrested. All this accumulates with the tensions aimed to further disrupt his health and ability to defend himself. He requested that he be allowed to give the statement to the press about this issue. May rudely interrupted him, claiming these are all 'Belgrade issues that have nothing to do with this trial'. Have they not?

  What was the question you've got here, Andy? "But let me ask you something if you found out that Milosevic was involved in this or Curuvija murder would you feel different about Milosevic and Hague?" This type of reasoning was exactly what was the idea behind this whole mud-slinging campaign: all possible murder cases have been already 'proved' in our media over this weekend, by no other than two Ministers and one Vice-President of the Government, they being the prosecution, the judge and the jury, and damn the investigation, trial and stuff. After that, would the shocked, uninformed, scared and brainwashed people here 'feel different about Milosevic and Hague', let me ask you? The reasonable answer would be: no, even if Milosevic 'was involved', this has absolutely nothing to do with the ICTY case. But, who can be reasonable, when it's so much easier to use guts or tear glands than brain?

  Andy also got a wise advice to 'keep Hague and dirty politics in Yugoslavia separate'. Not possible, they're one and the same, one feeds the other. The ICTY shapes our present politics, defines the positions of all the players towards the past, present and near future and towards each other and in return serves as a potent outside tool and deterrent in the political battle. But, in the case of Milosevic, a term 'overkill' clearly applies.
  
  Vera Martinovic
  Belgrade
  Yugoslavia

• Tuesday April 01, 2003 at 2:28 am
  

  Yes Vera, you're right.

  The dirty politics in the ICTY feeds the dirty politics in YU and vice versa.

  Those of us outside YU can't stop the dirty politics in YU because that's the affair of the YU people. But we can do our best to stop the dirty politics in the ICTY, because that is EVERYBODY's affair!
  
  David
  Australia

• Tuesday April 01, 2003 at 3:45 am
  

  Good to read you Vera, once again.
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Shangri-Lah

• Tuesday April 01, 2003 at 3:51 am
  

  The Iraqis are fighting an invader. NATO did never seriously consider that option and Chernamierden, Yeltsin betrayed Yugoslavia.
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Shangri-La

• Tuesday April 01, 2003 at 4:05 am
  

  I notice one hour time difference with the ICTY usual time in Shangri-La, is the EU time already advanced to Summer Time?
  
  G C
  Shangri-La

• Tuesday April 01, 2003 at 4:10 am
  

  The Arabs, as a nation are showing more solidarity with their Iraqis brethren than the Slavs did with the Yugoslavs. This eventually will prove essential in the failure of the neo Imperialists, neo Colonial powers.
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Shnagri-La

• Tuesday April 01, 2003 at 4:12 am
  

  David,

  I am reading a countryman of yours and liking it, Alan Moorehead. I wonder what he would have said of the late conflicts of the XX century and the present one.
  
  G C
  Shangri-La

• Tuesday April 01, 2003 at 4:16 am
  

  I also finished, in case anyone cares, reading Günter Grass Crabwalk which puts (at last) his life in a good perspective, proving once again history does not vanish, despite all the efforts to force it out of the collective memory of nations.
  
  G C
  Shangri-La

• Tuesday April 01, 2003 at 5:30 am
  Maybe I'm beating a dead horse here but here is one more nail in Mihailovic's coffin of lies.

  The deadline to get on the ballot in the 2000 elections was 00:00 (12:00 AM) on the night of August 24th/morning of the 25th.

  Ivan Stambolic didn't go jogging until 9AM on the morning of the 25th. This was 9 hours AFTER the deadline had already expired.

  Ivan Stambolic couldn't have ran in the elections even if he had wanted to, because

  the deadline for him to submit his candidacy had already expired!

  So not withstanding the fact that Stambolic showed no desire to run for president, the motives that Mihailovic spoke of are proven beyond any doubt to be false because Stambolic's candidacy was an IMPOSSIBILITY!!!!
  
  Andy Wilcoxson
  Washington, United States

• Tuesday April 01, 2003 at 6:15 am
  Indeed Andy! But Stambolic could have been pissed off that Dos didn't give him backing and was preparing to get even with them by blowing the whistle on the "behind the scenes" machinations.

  Question: Guess who would have benefitted from his disappearance? Answer: Dos and their backers, local and foreign. Plus there was the added advantage that Milosevic could be blamed.

  Mihajlovic's statement is so blatantly false it simply defies logic and REEKS of cheap bull. Pretty desperate in my book. He must think his constituents are a bunch of cretins.
  
  David
  Australia

• Tuesday April 01, 2003 at 6:18 am
  

  Andy,

  Do you know who are the five members of the Committee for the Defense of SM arrested in Belgrade?
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Shangri-La

• Tuesday April 01, 2003 at 6:45 am
  Point was when seprating Hague and politics. If Milosevic might be guilty of one does not necesarily mean the other is also guilty. Thats the point. If someone putting too much belief in one man because he is innocent of a crime he's accused of in front of the world its for me a mistake. Anyway so the position is the same? Whatever Milosevic accused of we are to support him? No thank you!

  David

  DOS leadership didnt ask for death penalty to be reactivated. DemoCristians (small party) asked for it probably to attract support from Kostunica / Seselj supporters on right.

  You are making overestimation of Milosevic influence on today Yugoslavia. It is correct that DOS trying to abuse State of Emergency for advantage but Milosevic and trial not so important for public. Estimate for watchers of the trial are very small. Also fact ignored by ones saying how DOS want to do something bad against SPS / JUL to hurt them in election. Good theori but problem is that JUL have NO supporter and SPS is also dead. It is SRS that is danger for DOS. SPS / JUL / Milosevic is history. Most Serbs interest is not having image from world of being genocide maniac or barbarian from stone age. If they forbid Radical Party then we know what is going on. I agree with Ana on this point. Radicals may be not for me but they have right to exist as party system

  Mr Bora your faith in Kostunica is too much. He may be more trust than Djindjic but he still likes to tell stories of how he didnt know that Milosevic was sent to Hague - just same. About executions of Communists that is just unbelievable. I never heard such thing.

  Maybe Im without faith but Milosevic, Djindjic, Kostunica are they really so different? No but same time would be good to see how Kostunica or Djindjic would do with situation in 1989. Under Kostunica maybe criminal paramilitary like Legija would not have success. With Djindjic you could never tell.
  
  Arandjel P V
  Srbija

• Tuesday April 01, 2003 at 6:50 am
  Please are we really saying that DOS pre October 2000 could or would have assasinated Stambolic?

  This is serious subject. If all we have is motiVE to convict DOS and nothing else do we also convict MIlosevic for Curuvija on motive alone? Of course not. Lets keep hate for DOS out of this.
  
  Arandjel P V
  Srbija

• Tuesday April 01, 2003 at 7:23 am
  Gogol,

  The President of Sloboda, Bogoljub Bjelica is currently in jail. Uros Suvakovic is also in jail and he is also a member of Sloboda, in addition to being the managing editor of the SPS newsletter "SMISAO." Goran Matic (former information minister) is in jail too. Matic is the Vice-President of the JUL and was until recently a Federal MP.

  Other Sloboda and SPS-JUL members have been arrested and later released. The Serbian government has also been confiscating property, such as computers, from Sloboda and SPS-JUL members.

  Then of course there is the arrest warrant against Mira Markovic.
  
  Andy Wilcoxson
  Washington, United States

• Tuesday April 01, 2003 at 7:56 am
  

  Arandjel

  1. Vlatan Batic asked for a moratorium on the death penalty. Is he not the Dos justice minister?

  2. What I am saying is that Dos may have had a greater motive to get rid of Stambolic than did Milosevic. In other words, I am contrasting Mihajlovic's statement, and his implication that Milosevic had a motive, with a motive which by definition has to be more logically feasible than Mihajlovic's.

  3. You yourself said that "lack of motive is not proof of innocence". Therefore what does presence of motive give you? Innocence? I'm not convicting anybody by describing and distinguishing the possible motives of the various parties. I'm simply arguing the same case as you are: That Mihajlovic's clumsy attempt at ascribing a motive to Milosevic is not sufficient to convict Milosevic. Specifically because Mihajlovic LIED as many here have shown by the mention of specific dates.

  4. The Hague show is of great significance to NATO members, because firstly it can explode their cause for bombing YU, and secondly if Milosevic manages to get his witnesses and mounts a stiff defence, NATO's friends in the YU government could have serious problems.

  It's interesting that you say we should keep "hate for Dos" out of this. Who hates Dos? A simple analysis of the possibilities, with some feasible speculation, doesn't imply any hate for Dos. Certainly NOT in the same way that you for instance demonstrate your hate for Milosevic. We don't necessarily all function on the same basis as you do.

  Note that Kostunica is also a member of Dos, or at least was, and I for one haven't mentioned him. The criticism here has to do with what certain Dos representatives like Batic, Mihajlovic and Zivkovic have said and done, NOT who they are. One of the things they seem to be doing is lying and cheap spin-doctoring. And I for one don't like smoke and mirrors, at least not the cheap and vulgar kind.
  
  David
  Australia

• Tuesday April 01, 2003 at 8:08 am
  Arandjel,

  The bottom line is this. You don't know who killed Curuvija and I don't know who killed Curuvija.

  What I do know is that Mihailovic is fabricating a motive for the killing of Ivan Stambolic, and that he us using that fake motive in order to arrest the DOS's political opposition.
  
  Andy Wilcoxson
  Washington, United States

• Tuesday April 01, 2003 at 9:07 am
  Arandjel,

  It is naïve to think that you can find and “honest” politician and this is valid regardless what country you live in. However, I did notice that Serbian people run into an “opportunistic” mode that usually ends up wit something like this: “ Oh, everybody is rotten, there is nothing we can do” and so on and so forth. The goal is to work with what you have and to take small but persistent steps. We should not care that we can not find “honest” politician. We should try to find the least dishonest a take it from there. We should try to make our small surroundings pleasant. We should try to do anything we can do, in our small way, because at the end every single bit count. We can not except results over night. Maybe new people should work with old - there are a lot of decent people in SRS, SPS and Jul. We need politician like Kostunica to bring country together, to heal old wounds and try move forward. At the end, the goal of each Serbian should be Serbian lands
  
  Dakic Ana
  Serbia

• Tuesday April 01, 2003 at 9:10 am
  Andy

  That is right we dont know who killed Curuvija yet. But if you keep applying motive as primary factor you must do it in all cases not just one that suit Milosevic.

  David you are arguing for nothing on this point. One member of DOS (a small party) is not the 'DOS leadership' as you put. That was incorrect statement. Then straight after you make point difference between DOS members about Zivkovic, Batic and Mihajlovic. One member of DOS is DOS leadership but 3 paties of DOS (including biggest are DOS 'representatives').

  Of the rest of your post I agree but there it goes again. Anyone who says something against Milosevic (like me) hates him right? At the same time nobody hates DOS. Give me break! People do hate DOS here and with reason. Policies hurt.

  We are angels and they are devils. Just same tactics that NATO / West use on Yugoslavia. Do you not see that we are better than to use these tactic?

  As for knowing way I function, well dont know you would know this.
  
  Arandjel P V
  Srbija

• Tuesday April 01, 2003 at 9:12 am
  Gee Andy, that was short and sweet :-)
  
  David
  Australia

• Tuesday April 01, 2003 at 9:18 am
  

  Yes, Arandjel.

  You're absolutely right. Your logic is flawless.
  
  David
  Australia

• Tuesday April 01, 2003 at 9:23 am
  Ana I dont agree that there were decent people in JUL. Even old JULists admit it was never popular and just there to support SPS and help friends of Mira Markovic jump in front of few good SPS left. It was not surprise that people in SPS were upset about JUL. There was some maybe in SPS and SRS probably no.

  Kostunica can bring country together its true but only if he's big enough man to take responsibility for sending Milosevic to the Hague. People deserve to know the fact before they vote, even if that make them vote for Radical party they have right to know. If he did such a thing he would have my vote imediately. Until then he is just the same as the rest. Liar and political coward. My vote goes to courageous and liar not liar and coward. But no I dont vote for Djindjic either.
  
  Arandjel P V
  Srbija

• Tuesday April 01, 2003 at 10:48 am
  I need to make a correction. I was mislead by an article I found on Lexis that was written by the Beta News Agency.

  The election deadline in 2000 was not at midnight on August 24th. That report was erronius.

  I checked the archive of the Serbian Ministry of Information's website and found that the real deadline was at midnight on September 3rd. So Stambolic was gone before the deadline afterall. But still it is still unlikely that he had an intention to run.

  I apoligise for not double-checking that information before posting it here.
  
  Andy Wilcoxson
  Washington, United States

• Tuesday April 01, 2003 at 10:58 am
  Arandjel,

  "If you apply motive as a primary factor you must do it in all cases not just the ones that suit Milosevic."

  I agree, but you have to remember, I only became suspicious of the DOS after Mihailovic so clearly lied about the motive behind Stambolic's killing. Why should Mihailovic lie unless he has something to hide?
  
  Andy Wilcoxson
  Washington, United States

• Tuesday April 01, 2003 at 11:49 am
  

  White Terror continues in Serbia:

  General Nebojsa Pavkovic Arrested
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Shangri-La

• Tuesday April 01, 2003 at 12:37 pm
  

  Now that the Balkans looks like Central America the gloves are off, first the NATO media ignores the White Terror and repression in Serbia, second at the ICTY judge May (ANTO) barks like a Nazi dog, irritable shows no concern about Mr. Milosevic's health and last but not least it is perfectly acceptable for the court, for prosecutor Nice (NATO) to introduce a self confessed terrorists as a witness who complains the hand grenade he threw in the cafe did not explode it, " I really regret it did not exploded it" he repeated in court. Reactions? None.
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Shangri-La

• Tuesday April 01, 2003 at 12:46 pm
  State of Emergency means dictatorship. - It carries lies in its essence.

  Anyhow for some DOS supporters it means democracy.
  It is really interesting to see that Serbia is one of rare countries that we cannot see protests against war.
  Is it really will of Serbian people?
  
  Pero Peric
  Canada

• Tuesday April 01, 2003 at 1:24 pm
  Two points.

  1: As a member of the Council of Europe (of which I believe S&M is), the death penalty is not allowed. Period. And hence, the continued existence of Abdulla Ocalan in a dodgy Turkish prison.

  2: The BBC has made a subtle shift from 'Srebrenica, the worst massacre in on European soil since WWII', to 'Srebrenica, one of the worst massacres on European soil since WWII'.

  News just in - Nebojsa Pavkovic, the ex-Gen has been arrested for 'links to criminals'.
  
  Alexei Gorbulski
  Brussels
  Heart of Nato

• Tuesday April 01, 2003 at 1:27 pm
  

  U.S. Steel buys Serbian steel mill $$$!
  
  Alexei Gorbulski
  Brussels
  Heart of Nato

• Tuesday April 01, 2003 at 1:32 pm
  Arrest of Pavkovic is hypocritic.

  After all DOS side did so much to 'steal' him from Kostunica and now they want to sell him up as used produce. Probably he had good relationship with Djindjic before but now Djindjic is gone some who didnt like him when he crossed to DOS want to punish him. It is cheap.

  Andy Mihajlovic was lieing long before and will continue to lie long after. Nobody serious listens to what he say anyway. The man is the joke in Serbian politics but I think we killed this subject now. There will be more news soon about this.

  By way its good that you check that information you gave. Thank you.

  Anyone have something about trial?
  
  Arandjel P V
  Srbija

• Tuesday April 01, 2003 at 2:09 pm
  The Islamists as a 'nation' are supporting one of its' benefactors, Iraq. They unite worldwide for strength and have not been held accountable for patron States condoning and sponsoring terrorism, and their agenda.

  The Slavs did the opposite, Chechs/Slovaks/Slovenia/Croatia/Eastern Europe/ Russia, and don't have an ideology that binds them other than yearning for a better life on their own sovereign terms.

  The Islamists have a civilization destroying agenda and yearning for more of nothing for everyone. W will not forget and forgive the WTC/Pentagon and neither will 70+% of the American people supporting the war. Seems he knows the 'Saddams' and is bent on taking them down one by one. It's not a war against Iraq, it's a war against the Islamist 'terrorist' movement of which Saddam is an dangerous enabler.

  Iraqis in the US are supporting the overthrow of Saddam and voice how destructive but necessary it is.

  In the Balkans, to NATO's shame they hopped in bed with the Islamists to destroy what was left of Yugoslavia.
  
  J P
  USA.Wis

• Tuesday April 01, 2003 at 3:28 pm
  JP,

  I do not support Saddam, but as a matter of principle, I'd like you to give me one example of when he was involved in any kind of terrorism, whatsoever, against the U.S. Do not quote WTC again as there is absolutely no evidence that Saddam was involved. None. Now give me some other examples, please.
  
  Anna P
  California

• Tuesday April 01, 2003 at 5:15 pm
  

  Here is what B92 tells of Hgue process today. Is there a more objective version?

  Judge May accuses Sloba of “witness harassment” | 15:02 | Beta

  THE HAGUE -- Tuesday - Former Yugoslav president Slobodan Milosevic cross-examined prosecution witness Alija Gusalic in The Hague today, angering presiding judge Richard May with his questioning techniques. Milosevic was questioning Gusalic about the outbreak of armed conflict in the northeast Bosnian town of Bijeljina in 1992, but the prosecution witness insisted that he knew nothing of Muslim preparations for war in the town as he had been in hospital at the time. Gusalic was wounded in March of 1992 whilst attempting to throw a grenade through the window of Bijeljina’s café Srbija. The attack followed a similar grenade attack a day earlier at the town’s caffe Istanbul, in which seven people were wounded, including Serbs. Gusalic admitted attempting to throw the grenade because he feared that uniformed men in the café Srbija were preparing to attack Bijeljina. Milosevic did not refute the protected witness’s claim that he was systematically tortured at the Batkovic prison camp near Bijeljina, although he tried to discredit Gusalic’s testimony by bringing into question his mental capacity and physical health. Judge May omitted that part of the proceedings from the public arena, calling Milosevic’s line of questioning an attempt at “witness harassment”, although the judge did permit the questioning of the witness’s credibility in an ensuing closed session.
  
  D. Jovanovic
  USA

• Tuesday April 01, 2003 at 5:21 pm
  

  Mr. Pavkovic was never Mr. Kostunica's man. Very early in his presidency Mr. Kostunica tried to remove him from power using legal means, as a president of the Yugoslav Military Supreme Council. But he was denied this by Mr. Djukanovic president of Montenegro and Mr. Milutinovic president of Serbia. Vote at the council session was 1 against Mr. Pavkovic and 2 for him. At the moment when this happened Mr. Milutinovic was doing everything as requested by Mr. Djindjic? It took Mr. Kostunica quite a number of months to find opportunity when by law he was allowed to remove Mr. Pavkovic from power using an executive order. During this period he was constantly harassed by Mr. Djindjic and CO why he has not yet removed Mr. Pavkovic from power. When removal happened Mr. Djindjic and CO attacked Mr. Kostunica as a bunch of wild dogs. They were questioning legality of his move. Yes at that time Mr. Pavkovic was their man and he was never Mr. Kostunica's man.

  Mr. Djindjic was very capable, corrupt politician, with some residue of spine, and with unreasonable urge to stay in power. The problem for Serbia is that all other guys that were following him are incapable and have no spine at all. Bringing this bunch of incapables to power and hiding behind their "support" is Mr. Djindjic's final and greatest sin.

  The followers of Mr. Djindjic will follow any wink from Washington, Europe and ICTY. In a funny way, Mr. Djindjic became real obstacle for these three, lately. He grabbed all the power that he could, so he was responsible for all the decisions. He knew that in order to be elected, next time, he had to oppose at least something. So he has started to criticize American policies in Kosovo. He became reluctant to send more Serbs to The Hague. There are signs that he started thinking that he should get rid at least of some Mafia.

  The new leaders of Serbia are confusing fight against Mafia and their political opponents. They are amending a law on cooperation with the ICTY so that it will allow an additional number of suspects to be sent to the ICTY. They sacked General Aco Tomic, who caught Mr. Perisic selling Yugoslav secrets to the USA government. Stay tuned new humiliations are coming soon.

  Yes I trust Mr. Kostunica more than the ICTY and its followers. Serbia should be run by its president and not the ICTY, Washington and Europe. Mr. Kostunica is not the president of Serbia because of Mr. Djindjic. He has grate ideas about the new Serbian Constitution but he will be excluded from the process of making it. Guess why? Serbia has good people to take over but I do not see them among
  
  Pera Bora
  Ottawa
  Canada

• Tuesday April 01, 2003 at 5:25 pm
  the current government leaders.
  
  Pera Bora
  Ottawa
  Canada

• Tuesday April 01, 2003 at 6:19 pm
  Executive power?

  How somebody can hold accountable executive power? It is only in the case that executive power did not obey legislative powers, or in the case when executive power proclaim a coup. In any other case it is a shame on the nation to prosecute executive power representatives.

  I guess DOS does not understand this anyway. They know only to listen (and take money?).
  
  Pero Peric
  Canada

• Tuesday April 01, 2003 at 6:19 pm
  Anna P
  For starters
  He pays Palistinian suicide bombers $25,000 a crack.
  He launched Skuds at Israel during Gulf 1, when they were not even involved.
  He is a sworn enemy of Israel, a country we support, therefore, so as you do to others so you do unto me , you do to me .

  He 'gassed' the Kurds, again so you do unto me , you do to me .

  This has gone on long enough, it must be dealt with. If not us, than who?
  
  J P
  USA.Wis

• Tuesday April 01, 2003 at 6:40 pm
  

  Anna P

  Hussein is guilty of "economic terrorism". He is sabotaging OPEC by wanting to sell oil at prices and quantities which don't suit the US, and he is also keen to accept Euros instead of US dollars as payment.

  Alex

  $23 million for a steelworks with NO liabilities? A bargain! It's less than the salary the CEO of US steel gets. Shame there's only one of them. I'm sure there'll be plenty of other bargains though. I like it, first you wreck the competitors and then you take them over for a song, no doubt for the benefit of the YU people. Just like Iraq, eh?

  JP

  Give me a clue why NATO would hop into bed with radical Islamists to destroy YU?

  Gogol

  The terrorist witness no doubt has great credibility as far as Nice and May are concerned. On humanitarian grounds he needs protection from "character assassination" by Milosevic. I'm sure there'll be more witnesses dragged out of the sewer before the "trial" is over. The Central America analogy is excellent. It's something US administrations REALLY know how to deal with. It's like being on home turf for them.

  Andy

  Remind me to remind you not to take anything Beta says for granted :-) Your point about Mihajlovic is still valid, and in the light of the possibilities raised here doesn't alter much regarding Milosevic's motive or Mihajlovic's lying. The very least that can be said is that BOTH sides may have had a motive. Nice guys come last. As Arandjel suggests indirectly, courageous liars tend to come first, the cowardly liars come second and the honest liars come third. The people always come last.

  Does anybody know how many DOS politicians have been arrested? If Milosevic had the Zemun gang and Djindjic had the Surcin gang, then presumably henchmen from both political sides should be in jail. Or is one side lily white?
  
  David
  Australia

• Tuesday April 01, 2003 at 8:06 pm
  David
  It was a carry over policy from how the US hopped in bed with Bin Laden to hold Communism at bay. They used the same tactic to help breakup Yugoslavia.
  
  J P
  USA.Wis

• Wednesday April 02, 2003 at 12:18 am
  For those who didn't watch the testimony of Alija Gusalic, it is difficult to convey the impact of his appearance: the man is clearly 'mentally challenged', I think that would be a politically correct expression, and it was at times painful and revolting to watch and listen to him. He sneered idiotically at the most inopportune places. He couldn't remember any detail, even when prompted lavishly by Nice. Here are some examples. Nice: "Did the Muslims have any weapons?" Gusalic:[confusion, no answer] Nice: "Mostly hunting weapons?" Gusalic: [finally a sneer of comprehension and an answer] "Mostly that kind." Nice: "Did Dragan Mauzer form a unit? What was their name?" Gusalic: "Yes, and they were called… mauzerovci… [a grin of apology for the wrong answer] Nice: 'It's OK if you do not know… by which animal his unit was called; we'll come to that later." Talking about the leading of a witness! This one badly needed to be led. He badgered May asking him unnecessarily (the pitcher and a glass sitting in front of him all the time): "May I take a drink of water? May I?", only to get a tired, disgusted answer: "By all means, do!" The idea of bringing him as a witness casts doubts there's any stock of half-valid witnesses left (I've read yesterday that Plavsic will testify against Milosevic, after she herself stated before she went to The Hague: 'I will not testify, because there's nothing to testify about.') What was the idea of Nice to bring Gusalic? In addition to being out of his wits, he also didn't have to say anything remotely connected with Milosevic and what he did say was embarrassing and damaging for himself.

  Gusalic was the second witness for the Bosnia & Herzegovina stage of the case and he was really unbelievable: when questioned by Nice, he told a story of his small town Bijeljina from March 1992, before the real fights began, but with local paramilitaries already preparing on both sides. To get the idea of the type of questions Nice put, here's one: "The tension grew and it was reflected in the fact that the café 'Serbia' became unavailable to everyone?", meaning that the local Serbs had their own place where they guzzled their beer, as opposed to the local Muslims and their respective hang-out. The events heated up after the Muslim Gusalic got pissed by a bomb attack on a Muslim-held café called appropriately 'Istanbul', so next day he went on a horseback into a Serb-held café appropriately called 'Serbia', and when he was refused a beer, returned to 'Istanbul', took a hand-grenade from the publican and still on a horseback started back towards 'Serbia'. Nice tactfully inquired: "Did you intend to throw the bomb?" "I didn't exactly mean to throw it; but the place was full of armed men and now I regret I didn't", said the aborted bomber. Instead, he was shot in the leg by the Serbs from 'Serbia' who obviously saw from afar the poor devil approaching with a grenade in his hand, and on a horse to boot. Nice wanted to know 'whether the horse died?', which was for some reason of utmost importance to the Prosecutor. Gusalic sneered his sneer and said: "I've never saw him again."

  After such a wildly hilarious and bizarre story (Gusalic senselessly grinning to each question, during his answers and in between), his story became the one of a victim, or as Armatta from the CIJ in the 'Camp Survivor Confronts Milosevic' painted him 'a special target of Serb brutality' . While recovering from the wound and in hospital, he was allegedly visited by some Serbs, threatened and beaten. Another group of visiting Serbs told him not to worry and to go back home. At home, he got threatening mail, so he went into hiding, but was subsequently arrested, escaped, arrested again and later on, when real fights started, he endured months of imprisonment, beatings and maltreatments in Batkovici Detention Camp, then was transferred to Doboj, where he had to dig trenches and carry the dead and wounded of the Republika Srpska Army, then he was back in Batkovici after almost a year, to be finally exchanged in another three months for some Serb POWs. The sufferings he endured were detailed to the clumsy prompting of Nice.

  Milosevic submitted two documents. One was the report from the International Red Cross after their visit to Batkovici, stating that 'the prisoners did not complain of ill treatment and in general appeared to be in good health'. The other was a Reuters report, describing Batkovici as a collection centre for Muslims and Croats who had been involved in combat activities in any way and the visiting reporter wrote that there was 'no obvious rancour between the prisoners and the Serbs'.

  May was surprised that Milosevic didn't went into any details about the 'very serious evidence of what happened in the camps'. Why should he? Local Serbs and local Muslims giving hell to one another. No 'command responsibility' attached to the accused here, May. A total flop for the Prosecution, this one. Probably intended as a tear-jerker, but for that the witness should have been at least coherent and presentable, and not this loony bomber who 'didn't exactly mean to throw it'.

  Here's a telling quotation from the aforesaid CIJ piece, shedding light on the reasons why it's impossible to 'keep Hague and dirty politics in Yugoslavia separate' and how they feed on each other: "One is tempted to wonder whether Milosevic's sources in Serbia have dried up lately. If today's cross examination is any indication, recent events in Serbia may have at least an indirect impact on the Milosevic trial. Perhaps witnesses will experience fewer threats as well." Some favourable developments for the ICTY by courtesy of DOS regime. Most revealing.
  
  Vera Martinovic
  Belgrade
  Yugoslavia

• Wednesday April 02, 2003 at 2:51 am
  

  JP USA Wis

  YU was a communist threat to the USA? Are you kidding me or what? :-)
  
  David
  Australia

• Wednesday April 02, 2003 at 3:28 am
  Can we now expect that maybe some of the "detainees" in Belgrade may be encouraged to testify against Milosevic (or Seselj for that matter) in exchange for protection and "light" sentences by Belgrade? Or at the very least they might be encouraged to stop providing info and witnesses for Milosevic and Seselj?

  The Prosecution definitely needs better witnesses than the psychiatrically challenged neanderthal Gusalic who was on yesterday.

  It may also be that Karadzic and Mladic show up in the purges and are arrested, because after all they were in cahoots with Legija and the rest of the criminal enterprise, weren't they? Still, even with Martial Law in force, it may be difficult to expedite Karadzic and Mladic off to the Hague without a lot of ruckus.

  It's refreshing to see that the Belgrade democrats are perfectly in tune and finally cooperating with foreign democrats/republicans like Colon Powell who just happens to be visiting on Wednesday. Is he delivering instructions on how to implement martial law democratically?

  At the very least, Belgrade can now claim a serious attempt at cooperation with the ICTY, even if ALL of the above scenarios turn out to be non events. It remains to be seen whether they get the next batch of 60 pieces of silver or they get another smack in the face like Djindjic got?
  
  David
  Australia

• Wednesday April 02, 2003 at 3:34 am
  

  German Media Giant Dominates Balkans LOL! The West doesn't care if the media is owned by a few people. The EC warned Berlusconi to separate himself from his media empire within a 100 days of being in office. Nix, nada, zilch. Meanwhile, Rai's most satirical programme has been axed and Rai itself is sinking into the economic depths. TGFT Internet.
  

  Pavkovic arrest source

  And Mr. Powell is dropping in to Belgrade. No prizes.
  
  Alexei Gorbulski
  Brussels
  The Heart of Nato

• Wednesday April 02, 2003 at 7:36 am
  J P USA.Wis

  He 'gassed' the Kurds, again so you do unto me , you do to me.

  Historians now know that many of the USA's past conflicts were based on lies. Sadly, the full list of these lies would fill many pages covering conflicts over several decades, and spanning every part of the globe. Please, realize that we usually don't learn the whole truth about our wars until many years later, when the damage is already done. Could this be happening now? I’ll let you answer this question.

  It is the myth that Saddam Hussein committed genocide, which the President still clearly believes, because it has been pounded into him by the war hawks. Dr. Stephen Pelletiere, CIA’s senior political analyst on Iraq during the Iran-Iraq war, and a professor at the Army War College, address this issue in detail: A WAR CRIME OR AN ACT OF WAR?

  Further on, look at an investigative report in this week’s issue of for The New Yorker magazine, WHO LIED TO WHOM?, where Seymour Hersh begins to unravel the mystery of how the President was bamboozled into believing Iraq was secretly trying to import uranium from Niger for a clandestine nuclear weapons program.

  I’ve got no intention to debate the bamboozlizing issue of Iraq at this forum. Let’s focus on bamboozlizing process in the Hague.

  
  
  Dusom Sarajlija
  USA

• Wednesday April 02, 2003 at 8:21 am
  What if Hussein "slaughtered" the Kurds like Milosevic "slaughtered" the Albanians in Kosovo? Where was the US administration then? Not a peep out of them! What do you say to that JP?

  The same as when the Turks fried the Kurds with mustard gas? Or when Hiroshima and Nagasaki had a slight collateral damage problem? Or when Vietnam was ploughed with carpet bombing and doused with Agent Orange?

  Sure doesn't rate with a walk in Central Park, does it?
  
  David
  Australia

• Wednesday April 02, 2003 at 8:49 am
  The degree of arrogance May seems to show towards Milosevic is just amazing. Again he has avoided the question of the other side bombarding Milosevic with hundreds of thousands of pages and videos etc. I can appreciate he wants the trial over as it's an embarrassment to both him and the other side, but can he really not see what an embarrassment he himself has become with his blatant attitude and childish behaviour?

  It seems any question or objection Milosevic raises, valid or not, is irksome. What happened to the olde British tradition of gentlemen? Have they got rid of all those since Blair came in?

  Then again, maybe May secretly wants a mistrial so he can avoid pronouncing a verdict which would be an even greater embarrassment? On his performance this far he's not fit to run a toilet queue, let alone a trial.
  
  David
  Australia

• Wednesday April 02, 2003 at 10:30 am
  Mr Bora

  'Mr Pavkovic was never Mr Kostunicas man'. That is not correct He was for more than a year while he useful. Fact that Pavkovic was Kostunicas personal chief of staff. Just days after the October revolution Djindjic looked for dismisal of Pavkovic and Kostunica defended him and kept him in position for long time. Two of them even were friends. You probably dont believe it but its fact that quick check on internet will tell you. On 27th December 2001 Kostunica even rejected Pavkovic's offer of resignation after Pavkovic felt pressure from Djindjic.

  Of course Kostunica change his mind when Pavkovic turned back on him. Even better for that Kostunica lovers can tell us why Djindjic is so bad to rule by decree when Kostunica used decree to dismiss Pavkovic!

  Kostunica Djindjic not so different? Except one bad and other honest? Please! I accept Kostunica is little but only lil more honest and more unifier than Djindjic but let us be honest about him.

  By way Kostunica is not President of Serbia because he was not smart not because of Djindjic. Kostunica thinking he could win alone. He was wrong. When Serbia voted in DOS and Kostunica they voted for all together not just Kostunica.

  He should remember who put him there in first place. Us. And we are people not Kostunicas, Titos, Milosevics or Djindjics supporters.
  
  Arandjel P V
  Srbija

• Wednesday April 02, 2003 at 11:03 am
  David
  YU was a communist threat to the USA? No, just the opposite. The USSR had already disintegrated, but Milosevic, among other things was painted as a Communist, so the same tactics , aiding Islamists, were also used to force disintegration of Yugoslavia. The benificiary being Germany.

  What if Hussein "slaughtered" the Kurds like Milosevic "slaughtered" the Albanians in Kosovo?

  Point is, my reading of the 'tribunal', Milosevic did not slaughter anyone, yet we were dupped that he did.
  
  J P
  USA.Wis

• Wednesday April 02, 2003 at 11:07 am
  Although not relevan to this Forum, I must post this:

  A journalist's account of the killing of a car full of Iraqi civilians by US soldiers differs widely from the official military version, says Brian Whitaker

  Tuesday April 1, 2003

  The invasion forces suffered another self-inflicted disaster in the battle for hearts and minds yesterday when soldiers from the US 3rd infantry division shot dead Iraqi seven women and children. The incident occurred on Route 9, near Najaf, when a car carrying 13 women and children approached a checkpoint.

  A US military spokesman says the soldiers motioned the vehicle to stop but their signals were ignored. However, according to the Washington Post, Captain Ronny Johnson, who was in charge of the checkpoint, blamed his own troops for ignoring orders to fire a warning shot. "You just f... killed a family because you didn't fire a warning shot soon enough!", he reportedly yelled at them.

  In another checkpoint incident this morning, US forces say they killed an unarmed Iraqi driver outside Shatra.

  Meanwhile it has emerged - as a result of detective work on the internet by a Guardian reader - that the explosion in a Baghdad market which killed more than 60 people last Friday was indeed caused by a cruise missile and not an Iraqi anti-aircraft rocket as the US has suggested.

  A metal fragment found at the scene by British journalist Robert Fisk carried various markings, including "MFR 96214 09". This, our reader pointed out in an email, is a manufacturer's identification number known as a "cage code". Cage codes can be looked up on the internet (www.gidm.dlis.dla.mil), and keying in the number 96214 traces the fragment back to a plant in McKinney, Texas, owned by the Raytheon Company. Raytheon, whose headquarters are in Lexington, Massachusetts, aspires "to be the most admired defence and aerospace systems supplier through world-class people and technology", according to its website (www.raytheon.com). It makes a vast array of military equipment, including the AGM-129 cruise missile which is launched from B-52 bombers.

  Our media do not print this news. British do!
  
  D. Jovanovic
  USA

• Wednesday April 02, 2003 at 11:26 am
  So Arandjel,

  Who do you see leading Serbia? I would like to hear from you solution and not just criticism. I nobody is “good” what do we do? Jump of the cliff? We come to previous statement: we can not find honest politician, however let’s work with what we have. Other issue is; if we are so smart why don’t we d something like run for office and see how well can we do. Bottom line - it is easy to constantly criticize everything and say its no good. Lets - for a change - find something positive and good and work with it. I see to many “reviews” not enough proposals.
  
  Dakic Ana
  Serba

• Wednesday April 02, 2003 at 11:27 am
  The Viceroy for Bosnia has spoken:

  Mr Ashdown also ordered that the words "state", "independence" and "sovereignty" be erased from the Serb republic's constitution. - Ashdown clips Bosnian Serb wings

  The idiocy continues with ""Too many people in the Serb Republic believe that the Serb Republic is a state rather than an entity," he said, quoted by the Bosnian Serb news agency SRNA. "Had the Serb Republic truly accepted its role as part of Bosnia-Hercegovina, none of this would have happened."

  Maybe the fool should ask some of his former constituents what they think the difference between 'entity' and 'state' is. A triumph of hot air over substance, or as meaningful as belly fluff.
  
  Alexei Gorbulski
  Brussels
  The evil heart of NATO

• Wednesday April 02, 2003 at 12:53 pm
  No Ana bottom line is that we must reject concept of leader that will save us. Through history people have too much faith in Tito, Milosevic and now Kostunica. Nobody will save Serbian people. They must do it themselve.

  Nobody suggest to jump off cliff or comit suicide, although self declared hero did this in front of parliament also.

  People of Serbia deserve better than politicans they have. Who is good for me? To be honest some are good but then they get into power and start to become like one before. There is a guy in OTPOR i known since I was small. He used to be in GSS good but we talk all time about how money comes from US to OTPOR. OTPOR may start as good organisation but when CIA start get involved they lose respect from me. Goran Svilanovic was once on a time good but of course he's too much traitor for many people. Zarko Korac was good but look at his comment on State of Emergency and others think he's traitor or worse say he's homosexal (he's married I think). Mihajlovic ha ha ha! Covic always talking so European, thoughtful, clever, leftish but still liar and corrupt. He is dangerous but party is small. Seselj, crazy, missed by Serbian politics, sometimes complete honest, sometimes complete liar, warmonger. His supporters all like to shout like him and get angry very quick. Toma Nikolic nasty, some say war criminal.

  SPS finished party. Ivica Dacic, capabel but never listens, he preaches and is not normal person. Baki. Baki, Baki Andjelkovic. Kind of joker, questionble philosophy, corrupt? bit annoying but least is human being, laugh at himself when he gets excited. Sympathetic in some way but from distance.

  Batic, St Protic, better than most. Batic used to work as lawyer helping gypsys. Smart ones trying to get Serbia independent as election tactic, same thing for death sentence, anti communist, less corrupt than majority.

  Micunovic ok, vain, respected by most but loves to be conciliation. If Kostunica had been man enough to go for unified DOS / DSS candidate this would be man to vote for. Its still question if he would have enough support.

  Kostunica slow, not smart, more honest than most, patiot but still liar. One who strength is honesty should not lie or only quality he has is patrioty. That why he so scared to admit role in export of Milosevic to Hague. It would make his only plus honest and patriot disaperar. Some good people in DSS but leadership of Marsicanin and others bad policy and tactic.

  Yes Vesna Pesic was ok too (respect but patriot forces never trust her) but cannot believe she didnt go to Djindjic funeral. She is down in respect for me.

  So that the one. Its Micunovic who is probably better than all of them

  Almost forgot Labus. He's ok for most people but his economic scare people. He is more honest, less corupt than majority but hated by 'patiotic forces'. Ilic accused him of not being Serb. Ilic Serbian patriot, corrupt, not cultured, sometimes very honest sometimes just liar. He is example of wrong kind of man in politics. God knows its good he is not smart enough to be dangerous.

  Ana who do you think is best Serb politician? By way its not so much different here than other places. Most people who post probably feel same way about their politicans. It is always to try to pick least bad one. Am I right? Im not too much depressed about them becaue I know them. Ones who make me depressed are one who have illusion about one or another.

  Apology for taking much space.
  
  Arandjel P V
  Srbija

• Wednesday April 02, 2003 at 2:01 pm
  Arandjel

  I, for one, do not have illusions or disillusions about any politician. I think of them as the people hired to do a job. There is a list of job requirements and the list of resumes of people applying for the job. We as a people select the best based on the resumes presented in front of us. How many of us made our qualifications little more appealing to get a job? It does not necessarily mean that we are lying but we are making some facts standing out. It is same with politicians. And as same with us they go trough review and people decide if they did a good job or not. As I recall Kostunica beat Labus twice in the elections. Djindjic did not had a gut to run and I am sorry for it since that was the race I would like to see.
  
  Dakic Ana
  Serbia

• Wednesday April 02, 2003 at 2:22 pm
  So who do you think is a good politician Ana? I dont ask for as much as I put but committ little more please!

  Kostunica did beat Labus but Labus is also popular with some Kostunica supporter. He is seen as much better than Djindjic by 'democratic' forces. If Kostunica agreed to support Labus I would have voted for Labus for unity. It was a mistake by Kostunica.

  What possible motive do you have want to see Kostunica beat Djindjic? Still 50 percent would not vote and it would be waste of money people cant afford. Everyone knows that Kostunica was more popular, much popular. Djindjic knows this using your job application theori Why would anybody want to apply for job they wont get?

  That I do not understand on one side you talk about politicians to do job but then you talk about gut.

  Are you saying you support Kostunica? If you are say loud and clear.

  Course the same is with me. Im not always honest. (But in my long post above it is honest) But much better one is one who says this not one who says something for image. Kostunica whole image based around honesty and patriotism. It leaves nothing for me when not only he let Sloba go to Hague but then just blame Djindjic which was so easy to do ,consider Djindjic was not liked anyway and seen as traitor. That is not my idea of being a man.

  If Kostunica was to say tomorow he sent Sloba to Hague I would 'forgive' him. But Im strange voter probably not typical in this way. Other ones might not forgive him. Not because he did this because some people know it, but because he admitted it and they cannot pretend he is great patriot leader any more.
  
  Arandjel P V
  Srbija

• Wednesday April 02, 2003 at 2:35 pm
  http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,927849,00.html

  This is very good article on Iraq. Arunditi Roy is great. Very good bit is

  'Operation Iraqi Freedom? I don't think so. It's more like Operation Let's Run a Race, but First Let Me Break Your Knees. So far the Iraqi army, with its hungry, ill-equipped soldiers, its old guns and ageing tanks, has somehow managed to temporarily confound and occasionally even outmanoeuvre the "Allies". Faced with the richest, best-equipped, most powerful armed forces the world has ever seen, Iraq has shown spectacular courage and has even managed to put up what actually amounts to a defence. A defence which the Bush/Blair Pair have immediately denounced as deceitful and cowardly. (But then deceit is an old tradition with us natives. When we are invaded/ colonised/occupied and stripped of all dignity, we turn to guile and opportunism.)'

  Where is everyone? Maybe I wait somebody is sure to say something nasty to me?

  Salim se.. Laku noc!
  
  Arandjel P V
  Srbija

• Wednesday April 02, 2003 at 2:42 pm
  Arandjel

  I do not want to commit to one or other politician. I shall decide on whom is better when the election time comes and I do NOT have to tell you whom I voted for. That is why we have curtains at the election boot. Who I voted for is for me to know and for politicians to guess. It is not vise to expose your hand - you never tell before hand that you want to hire. That is one of the reasons that I am against public opinion surveys especially before elections because you can use statistic to generate results and then it becomes a self-fulfilled prophecy. I am a citizen and I vote. I do not belong to any party and so far I do not want to. If and when I decide to run shall commit. Not before.That is the way of democracy otherwise it becomes labeling.

  Also, people should be careful to state their voting opinions because it makes harder for them to go back on what they say. Once you open that door you have to justify everything you say. It is a good thing to hod back a little. However I do have one agenda: Serbian Interests. The fact that I love my nation does not mean that I hate some other or that I am incapable of loving any other. It just means that I shall try in any small way I can contribute to representing and defending Serbian Interests.
  
  Dakic Ana
  Serbia

• Wednesday April 02, 2003 at 2:56 pm
  JP,

  1. I suggest Israel takes care of its own problems with Saddam - they are not directed at the U.S. and that means that we are not "at war" but we are an invading army.

  2. When he gassed the Kurds, the US didn't make a peep of an objection against Saddam. No comment at the time, but now we use it to justify present action based on something completely different. The U.S. also gave him a nod and a wink when he indicated to the U.S. government (in advance) that he would invade Kuwait and then turned the tables on him and used it as an excuse for the first Gulf War. <3>Wars are almost always fought for economic reasons dressed up as humanitarian reasons.

  4. After the lies upon lies upon lies that were heaped up in the media by the U.S. government about Yugoslavia and Kosovo, why should I believe any U.S. government propaganda now? The fact is I don't -- believe nothing they tell you without finding your own evidence to prove it.

  5. Dropping a bomb on somebody's head seems to be the only way to resolve anything anymore. Too bad Bush doesn't have his own child or children in the military in Iraq, nor does Rumsfeld. I say that any "leader" who advocates war should be prepared to put his own offspring at risk in that war before asking everybody else to do that. As the mother of 2 sons, I'd let the U.S. government send my sons on a deplorable mission like Kosovo or Iraq over my dead body only.
  
  Anna P
  California

• Wednesday April 02, 2003 at 3:12 pm
  Thanks, D. Jovanic, and Vera.

  Great to hear from you again Vera. Loved the bit: " ... the truth is just simply that, what really happened, and not some philosophical category with many dots …….at both ends……… ... "

  ;-)

  Busy right now, but I also posted (I think) a link earlier disputing Saddam gassing his own people:-

  http://www.polyconomics.com/searchbase/11-18-98.html

  And a more recent one:-

  http://polyconomics.com/showarticle.asp?articleid=1920

  I'm been composing an open letter to Tony Blur (sic). Anyone want a look-see, suggest improvements, may be even want to co-sign it, or steal it or bits of it and send a version of it themselves, send me an E-Mail ( gijxixj@hotmail.com - don't ask ). Actually some of it references me being Brit., so, come to think of it, it'd have to get chopped some for non-Brits, easy enough. I'd post it here, but it's not exactly on topic. ;-) It's also a bit long ... surprise surprise ... something I'm wrestling with a bit at the moment.

  Oh, what the hell, I'll put one paragraph here, for a "taste":

  "I remind you that the Milosevic case in the Hague has firmed up the concept that Command Responsibility goes right to the very top. In the case of Iraq, that means YOU. Neither you, nor George W. Bush were born yesterday, so you must know that neither British nor American Marines are trained to be boy-scouts. Hence, if things do get very difficult for the "coalition" forces in Iraq, they will be as prone to commit war-crimes and crimes against humanity as the forces of pretty much ANY other country, if, indeed, they haven't already done so, which seems unlikely. Still, I guess you're hoping that the fog of war and victor's justice will cover that up for you nicely, as it has over KosovO - so far."
  
  Dennis Revell
  USA

• Wednesday April 02, 2003 at 4:27 pm
  

  Qote from the post of Mr. Aranjel P.

  "Arrest of Pavkovic is hypocritic."

  "After all DOS side did so much to 'steal' him from Kostunica and now they want to sell him up as used produce. Probably he had good relationship with Djindjic before but now Djindjic is gone some who didnt like him when he crossed to DOS want to punish him. It is cheap."

  My post:

  If there are leads showing that Mr. Pavkovic is involved in killing of Mr. Djindjic his arrest is not hypocritical. I am afraid that it may turn out that Mr. Djindjic was courting wrong people. If this turns out to be true such behavior of Mr. Djindjic would be hypocritical for sure.

  Mr. Kostunica inherited Mr. Pavkovic from Mr. Milosevic government. Law did not allow him to remove Mr. Pavkovic personally. Mr. Pavkovic was a head of staff of the Yugoslav Army not a personal head of staff of Mr. Kostunica. This is quite a substantial difference and it is strange that somebody living in Srbija does not know the and understand the difference. Statement that they were friends and that a year is a long period is quite remarkable on its own.

  There is a big difference when one uses exceptionally an executive order when it is prescribed by law and the other one using this method all the time in order to bypass laws and regulations and brag publicly about it.

  I never taught that a politician or a person can save a country. I always taught that the strongest democratic counties are based on the rule of law. Mr. Kostunica is my choice because he insisted on building such a state. In all the elections that took place in Serbia recently he won. As soon as DOS was elected he requested a start of work on a new constitution and following that modernization of other laws., but this was ignored in the name of expediency. As soon as they were elected Mr. Djindjic was obsessed by garbing as much power as he could. He tried to save Serbia on his own.

  When I am choosing a politician I go by certain criteria. The most important one is honesty. If Mr. Kostunica is just a little bit more honest than Mr. Djindjic (Personally I think that there is a big difference here.) it is good for me. I like politicians who obey laws and who are patriots. I prefer politicians that are leaders and not pushers.

  My opinion is that people that come out to cast their votes all the time are ones that care about their country regardless for which party they vote. Majority of them always voted for Mr. Kostunica. Ones that ignore the elections do not count.

  The three Serbian politicians that I like the best are:

  Mr. Kostunica, Mr. Micunovic and Mr. Labus. Mr. Labus would be much higher on the list if he was more patriotic.

  As many posters pointed out, on this board, one of the most inexcusable sins of Mr. Djindjic was when he unconstitutionally, using manipulations of his followers, banded participation in the parliament of DSS members of parliament for months. Both Mr. Micunovic and Mr. Labus stand out because they share this opinion with other posters and me. Mr. Labus to his credit lost support of Mr. Djindjic when he publicly said that if elected he would return DSS members of the parliament to the parliament against wishes of Mr. Djindjic. The above post is not my interpretation of what I think that majority of people thinks in Serbia. I think that all the posts on this board are personal opinions of the posters them selves.
  
  Pera Bora
  Ottawa
  Canada

• Wednesday April 02, 2003 at 4:34 pm
  Arandjel P V : He should remember who put him there in first place. Us.

  -EXACTLY! - US and a bunch of DOS activists who split amongst them selves that $100.000.000 ......... and in case You personally didn't get any of that Dow - not even a computer.........- You may be forgiven but the rest of them are the scum of Serbia Nation and that's how the history will remember them...........

  Point is, my reading of the 'tribunal', Milosevic did not slaughter anyone, yet we were duped that he did. J P USA.Wis : - Point is, my reading of the 'tribunal', Milosevic did not slaughter anyone, yet we were duped that he did.

  - YES! -JP - We were duped by our own government that started the demolition of Yugoslavia as early as 1989 and big part of us are being duped any time our government comes up with a new "target of opportunity" -I. E. - ANY country that doesn't have sufficient Air Defense, is strangled by sanctions for years ( That makes them more defenseless and increases the #'s of the 5th column)........ and has some lucrative Natural resources.........

  and it doesn't matter if one is being duped from the left or as a Graduate of Limbaugh Institute For advanced Conservative Studies.........
  
  vytas abrutis
  phila,PA
  USA

• Wednesday April 02, 2003 at 5:01 pm
  AP
  I suggest Israel takes care of its own problems with Saddam
  Remember when Israel wFrance/England took possession of the Suez Canal? When after attack Israel took possession of the Sinai Peninsula? Had total control of the its' West Bank and Gaza? In all cases they were forced to relent the areas back to their sworn enemies.
  Doing so, IMO, places an obligation on our part for their security.

  Wars are almost always fought for economic reasons dressed up as humanitarian reasons.
  I'd say 'for perceived survival' , short or long term. I see no economic benefit in Iraq.

  After the lies upon lies upon lies that were heaped up in the media by the U.S. government about Yugoslavia and Kosovo, why should I believe any U.S. government propaganda now? The fact is I don't -- believe nothing they tell you without finding your own evidence to prove it.
  I agree, 100%.

  Dropping a bomb on somebody's head seems to be the only way to resolve anything anymore.
  I just found out, they are dropping precision 'cement' bombs to destroy planes in their bunkers. Now, who ever went to such extremes to avoid collateral damage?
  FYI, 'leaders' Sr. Bush was a twice downed WWII pilot, Rummy and W were fighter pilots as was McCain. In my case I didn't support the mission in the Balkans but mission in Iraq is justified. VA
  Rush's original position, followed what Pat Buchanan was pushing, ie stay out of the Balkans. Now he is backstepping. Talk radio is more up and up, but still they don't like to take up causes that they lost the first time around.
  
  J P
  USA.Wis

• Wednesday April 02, 2003 at 5:19 pm
  JP,

  I think the Iraqi woman who had the memorable experience of watching her two daughters have both their heads blown off their bodies by overzealous "coalition" troops will be very glad about the lengths sought to avoid collateral damage.

  "I see no economic benefit in Iraq." So you're in a minority of ONE. What an absurd statement.

  W was a fighter pilot??! Since when? Are you talking about him playing a computer game or what?
  
  Anna P
  California

• Wednesday April 02, 2003 at 5:32 pm
  JP,

  Since you apparently do not dispute that the U.S. backed Saddam and turned a blind eye during any alleged atrocities he committed and now uses those alleged atrocities as justification for attacking the whole country of Iraq (and to hell with the consequences), presumably you approve of this kind of foreign "policy." How do you justify it, though? Saddam is just one of many such despots that was postioned where he is by the U.S. and turned on when it became expedient. Who's next -- any ideas? How about this idea -- let's not support the ends justifying the means as foreign policy any more and maybe that way we can avoid in the future having the U.S. behaving like a hypocritical empire builder in the guise of a democratic society.
  
  Anna P
  California

• Wednesday April 02, 2003 at 6:14 pm
  In between the bouts of dealing with less than bright Alija Gusalic (who, when asked to remember a certain fact, replied that he can 'hardly remember his children's names' and when asked to read out a part of his own statement, pleaded of being unable to do so, because he has 'finished only eight grades'), May also announced what is to be expected in the days to come in terms of procedure. He listed about a dozen new witnesses, almost all with coded names of that anonymous protected species, of which one (B-071) already started and again in closed session. But, more significantly, May announced that in the next few days, beginning with today, there will be more talk on administrative issues, these including the health problems of Milosevic and those two recurring demands from the Prosecution: to exclude the cross-examination for the witnesses under the Rule 92bis (those who testify in writing) and to significantly prolong the time for its case. One is to expect that, when given the opportunity to speak on any of these issues, Milosevic will rise again the issue of the link between the Belgrade regime current 'efforts' and the ICTY, and that is something that the said regime would want to avoid being broadcasted. And what happens? TV B92 announced this morning that due to a 'technical malfunction' it will be unable to broadcast the Milosevic 'trial' for the whole of this week! Hopefully, these inconvenient administrative issues will be over by that time, and with it also a danger that someone may actually hear Milosevic speaking on TV, live, for 5-10 minutes total, about the foul play of the Belgrade 'rulers'. So much about the insignificant number of people here who follow the 'trial'. DOS obviously knows better and is mortally afraid of even this small opportunity for Milosevic to publicly denounce their machinations. One can politically or personally despise or hate Milosevic, but when he comes across as coherent and logical, even his opponents are bound to listen. He is not a ranting Alija Gusalic, to the infinite chagrin of the ruling group. Remember how Djindjic complained two months ago to the press that the ICTY has in fact turned itself into a political pulpit for Milosevic, who uses every opportunity to mention the 'Belgrade puppet regime'. Therefore, B92 got a hint to cork it up for one week, just as a test. The next expected step is a permanent discontinuation of the 'trial' transmissions.

  Did you know that VREME weekly and B92 are now being targeted by the local NGOs (specifically, by Sonja Biserko, the President of the Helsinki Committee for Human Rights in Serbia, in her interview to TOL-Transitions On Line, titled 'The Writing On the Wall', dated 28.3.03.) for their lack of vigour in propagating the ICTY among our Nazified natives who require de-Nazification? Here's the relevant quote: "There has recently been a division among the most prominent human rights campaigners of the Milosevic era, and it could be said that they are now divided into two camps: Vreme, a respected magazine, and B92, a well-known independent radio and television station, on one side and certain non-governmental organizations, such as the Helsinki Committee and the Humanitarian Law Center on the other. The latter claim that the media have not given fair coverage to ICTY, or covered investigations into war crimes committed by Serbs. The former deny this, but argue that life in Serbia could not and must not come to a halt while the past is being examined." (To check the whole article, visit www.tol.cz) As far as I can tell, B92 is to be blamed only because recently it had some broadcasts about the plights of those few Serbs still remaining in Kosovo. And, of course, for still broadcasting the Milosevic 'trial'. After today's announcement of the convenient 'technical malfunction' within TV B92, it is to be expected that Biserko will rate this media outlet much more favourably. By this small example one can glimpse at who is the real power behind the throne and how they keep media in check.
  
  Vera Martinovic
  Belgrade
  Yugoslavia

• Wednesday April 02, 2003 at 6:52 pm
  AP
  http://www.weathersage.com/dailyplanet/waves/bush.htm

  I approve of a foreign policy that checks Islamists bent on detroying civilization as we know it, period.. And Iraq under Saddam, meets that description. Milosevic does not.
  
  J P
  USA.Wis

• Wednesday April 02, 2003 at 6:59 pm
  Vera, I have run today into a news item that dioceses a role of a new formed Commission for Investigation of Verbal Attacks on Mr. Djindjic in protecting his name and legacy. Is this true or not? I have seen that NUNS, quite rightfully, is opposing existence of such a monster.
  
  Pera Bora
  Ottawa
  Canada

• Wednesday April 02, 2003 at 7:05 pm
  JP,

  What about the "Islamists bent on destroying civilization as we know it" that we put into power? What about why we keep putting them into power in the first place? Who is, in fact, actually destroying (or at the very least changing) civilization as we know it - e.g. Saddam or the US that put him there?

  Nevermind. It's a rhetorical question now. This discussion is somewhat off track from the forum's purpose. You're not going to change my mind with anything you've said so far, and I'm not going to change yours.
  
  Anna P
  California

• Wednesday April 02, 2003 at 7:07 pm
  It's all about "cooperation"!

  Cooperation with foreign interests in getting rid of problematic people,

  cooperation in establishing a socio-economic-political system which suits foreign interests,

  cooperation with the ICTY in thwarting Milosevic's defence,

  cooperation in getting Mladic and Karadzic,

  cooperation in stopping the exposure of NATO's bombing of YU as a criminal enterprise,

  cooperation in justifying the theft of Kosovo,

  cooperation in hiding the REAL killers of YU and finally,

  cooperation in hiding the real agenda of the New World Order... global economic colonialism...aka Globalisation!

  "Onward Christian soldiers... !" The army marches on its belly (full of McDonalds and non-French fries, this time).
  
  David
  Australia

• Wednesday April 02, 2003 at 7:11 pm
  Whatever happened to free competition and the abuse of monopoly power laws?
  
  David
  Australia

• Wednesday April 02, 2003 at 7:14 pm
  

  An Interesting Russian site on Iraq war. It has pages in English too. Hopefully it will not be under constant attacks by the "freedom of speech enforcers" (hackers) working for the USA government like Al-jazeera is.

  http://www.iraqwar.ru/

  http://www.iraqwar.ru/index.php?userlang=en

  http://www.iraqwar.ru/iraq-read_article.php?articleId=1494&lang=en
  
  Pera Bora
  Ottawa
  Canada

• Wednesday April 02, 2003 at 8:06 pm
  

  -Before Osama Bin Ladin was invented by the CIA Afghanistan was a secular state, with equal rights for men and women.

  -Before Iraq was put under unreasonable sanctions Iraq was a secular state.

  -Before an American intervention in the Former Yugoslavia Bosnia and Kosovo had very, very , very few Islamists. Hardly any. When Mr. Izetbegovic was in jail for being an Islamist the West criticized.

  -When Iranian Shah was fighting Islamists we said poor Islamists. He is mistreating them in jails and throwing them out of the country. Let people demonstrate. Let people abolish his rule. Let France protect poor Mr. Homeini. Now days we have Bush Zoo Garden for Taliban fighters in Cuba. It looks that Taliban fighters will be joined with some Iraqis soon.

  -Real Islamists are not interested in destroying our civilization, majority of them even does not know where we are and how to get to us. They have hardly money to survive and not to finance our destruction. They do not have tools or knowledge to do that. They are interested in being left alone in their countries. Koran may be preaching jihad and asking for destruction of infidels, but there is nothing in it about how to make nuclear, biological or chemical weapons. Ones that harmed USA were trained by USA in USA and borrowed USA technology to harm USA because USA was interfering with their own business. Their message to Americans is leave us alone and we will leave you alone.

  USA got one thing right this time. If you offer USA food instead of USA bombs, UN sanctions and USA rule you will be loved even by Islamist. Yes they are that poor and that cheep and very, very grateful when one is friendly to them. But to offer first UN sanctions followed by USA bombs followed by USA food followed by USA rule will never work. Stop crying JP-ina. Do a right thing, learn to respect others in their homes and they will respect you in your home. Iraqis are asking for jihad against USA and GB nobody else, and let me repeat nobody else. It is very simple JP-ina.
  
  Pera Bora
  Ottawa
  Canada

• Wednesday April 02, 2003 at 8:17 pm
  

  Iraqi POWs Will Get Day in Court, but Which Court? Wed April 2, 2003 04:44 PM ET URL:http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=focusIraqNews&storyID=2497376
  
  Pera Bora
  Ottawa
  Canada

• Wednesday April 02, 2003 at 9:04 pm
  Saddam's VX gas
  
  Dennis Revell
  USA

• Wednesday April 02, 2003 at 9:20 pm
  Vera, Can you tell us if this latest witch-hunt in Bergrade will have any significant impact on Milosevic's defence/readyness to cross-examine witnesses. Nice said today that the Tribunal had been contacted by people that have decided to now come forward. Any info on that or anything about 'Sloboda'?
  
  Dan B
  Canada

• Wednesday April 02, 2003 at 9:52 pm
  PB Not to disagree with everything you say, I feel like comments are in order .

  Before Osama Bin Ladin was invented by the CIA Afghanistan was a secular state, with equal rights for men and women.
  Secular, I don't know about that. I do think that it has been controlled by the 'mullahs' from time immortal. Women having half a vote and half a husband doesn't sound equal to me.

  -Before Iraq was put under unreasonable sanctions Iraq was a secular state.
  It still is and will be after 'reconstruction'. So? I agree that secular is a good thing, but not everything . After all Hitler, Mussolini, and Stalin were secular.

  -Before an American intervention in the Former Yugoslavia Bosnia and Kosovo had very, very , very few Islamists. Hardly any.
  By what I've read, Muslims in Kosovo was ~70+%. In Bosnia, they were ~40% versus 30% Croat and ~30% Serb. In that the Muslim activists were inspired by the Islamists mullahs, I consider them one and the same, but then again that's only what I think.

  -When Iranian Shah was fighting Islamists we said poor Islamists. He is mistreating them in jails and throwing them out of the country.------ It looks that Taliban fighters will be joined with some Iraqis soon.
  Our Democratic President Carter screwed up. Although the Shah was a friend, Carter dumped him.
  The Taliban at gitmo are not ordinary draftees protected by the Geneva conventions, they are zealots recruited worldwide to flock to Afghanistan to promote Jihad. They may be incorrigible. I don't believe that the Iraqi soldier falls in that category.

  -Real Islamists are not interested in destroying our civilization, majority of them even does not know where we are and how to get to us.
  I read over and over again, whether in India, Timor, Nigeria , Phillipines, Sudan or East Timor, that after prayers at a mosque, and sermon by a 'mullah', they go out a raise hell violent with infidels. The first step in curing that is having a secular government.

  What's with the -ina inserted after JP? Is a diminutive of some sort?
  
  J P
  USA.Wis

• Wednesday April 02, 2003 at 10:06 pm
  JP

  I have to ask this: What is your definition of Civilization? So that we know what we are talking about.
  
  Pero Peric
  Canada

• Wednesday April 02, 2003 at 11:01 pm
  

  Pero Peric

  Civilisation is what the colonialists brought to the Red Indians. Or what Cortez brought to Latin America. Or the black slaves the colonialists brought to America so they could enjoy "the dignity of work" since there weren't enough willing Red Indians left to pick cotton. Civilisation is what the British Empire brought to India and the Middle East.

  Civilisation is what the Super Powers are now bringing to YU, Iraq, El Salvador, Guatemala, Haiti, Grenada, etc, etc... The dignity of work and democracy!
  
  David
  Australia

• Wednesday April 02, 2003 at 11:04 pm
  At bargain basement wages.
  
  David
  Australia

• Wednesday April 02, 2003 at 11:45 pm
  Vera

  many thanks for your reportage........

  and to all others, please try to find it in your hearts to eventually forgive us for our country's murderous war.
  
  AP V
  NY
  NY

• Thursday April 03, 2003 at 12:14 am
  That's ok, AP V NY NY. Take it easy, we all know it's not the ordinary American people who kicked it off.
  
  David
  Australia

• Thursday April 03, 2003 at 12:18 am
  

  JP when I am talking of Islamists I am not thinking about ordinary Muslims, I am talking about people obsessed by Islam. So most of your comments missed the point since most of the Muslims are not Islamists especially ones from Yugoslavia (Bosnia and Kosovo). I know, I lived there for 40 years. I still have some friends from both comminutes.

  In order to find out that Afghanistan was really for some time secular state and that women had for a period of time equal rights with men you would have to look in history and find out for your self. Your comment on Afghanistan shows that in this area you are not educated properly. You have too strong opinion on Afghanistan for the amount of work invested in learning about Afghanistan and Afghans.

  Comparing Saddam with Hitler sounds like a joke, comparing him with Slaljin may be, but may be not he never had work camps like Staljin, and there are other major differences. You guys had a chance to nuck Staljin but you have not. Was this a meter of principle of something else like weapons of mass destruction?

  I believe that every person is entitled to a fair trial, like Taliban fighter that was born in the USA. I guess we have a different opinion on this. What you think about Iraqis compared to Talbans does not meter. Form what I have heard to day on TV the USA administration is thinking how to try them, and some will be sent to Guantanamo.

  Leav India, Timor, Nigeria , Phillipines, Sudan or East Timor to deal with their problems on their own. (It is interesting that Saudi Arabia and Pakistan are not on this list of yours.) Don't bomb them. Help educate them and develop them and they would be grateful to you. The fighting technique that the mullahs are teaching their followers out of Koran are laughable and with these fighting skills they cannot destroy our "modern civilization" with which some of us are so eager to force feed the others. If we stop our arm traders to sell them our arms, and if we stop our special forces and CIA training them they will be no mach to us. Even if they form a coalition of the Willing they can not invade Africa, Europe, Asia, Australia or the both Americas.

  The key question about the war on Iraq is who is going to make the most money out of it? Just check into activities of families Bush, Perle, Chainy and CO. You my friend will pay for war and this guys will not, since they will make tones of money on it
  
  Pera Bora
  Ottawa
  Canada

• Thursday April 03, 2003 at 12:22 am
  PP

  That's a hard question but I think the following is what I mean

  In short, a civilization is a group living within a designated area that makes advances in any fields of knowledge.
  
  J P
  USA.Wis

• Thursday April 03, 2003 at 12:34 am
  David I like your definition of civilization.
  
  Pera Bora
  Ottawa
  Canada

• Thursday April 03, 2003 at 12:46 am
  JP

  Thanks, David almost had me fooled with his eerily accurately sounding definition of "civilisation".

  So, civilisation is just a bunch of geeks sitting around trying to figure out Einstein's General Theory of Relativity, and how bees fly.

  That's a relief.

  Always thought Gandhi was a bit harsh when visiting England, and he was asked what he thought of Western Civilisation: "I think it would be a very good idea"
  
  Dennis Revell
  USA

• Thursday April 03, 2003 at 1:25 am
  PB

  I have only spent a few months at one time in Turkey. My macro knowledge is very limited and is why I enjoy reading comments from 'peers'.

  W keeps saying Islam is religion of peace and like you I would tend to agree. When I was in my teens I knew a Muslim family from Lebanon and other than those I met in Turkey that's the limit of my personnel contact. But as I see, Chechnya, Bosnia, and Kosovo, have been infiltrated by Islamists and by religious code and intimidation are 'protected' by the Muslims. In most cases the Muslims have no choice. Worse, through control of the schools the number of Islamists is growing. It's also my opinion that Muslims shun others living in the area. This I have read of this assimilation complaint from the Europeans, Australians, Canadians and Americans to where the Muslims have migrated.

  I wasn't comparing Hitler, Saddam or Stalin other than they ran secular countries. I could have include W and just about most country leaders.

  Saudi Arabia and Pakistan are on my list and those countries that now require special scrutiny when entering the US.

  If some of the POW are 'foreign' or a member of a 'terrorist' organization and not a member of the army, I suspect they might go to Gitmo for debriefing. Other than that, the average conscript, including the Republican guard will be allowed to go home

  You say with their fighting skills they cannot destroy civilization. I have to disagree. With 20 'terrorists' suicide pilots they decimated the economy of the USA and the world. With 'open' societies world wide, germs, viruses, nuclear bombs, and state sponsored 'terrorist' running around, it has 70% of Americans concerned.
  
  J P
  USA.Wis

• Thursday April 03, 2003 at 2:08 am
  Hell, JP, what sort of economy is it if 20 Arabs (Saudis NOT Iraqis) can decimate it in a few hours? It's taken the US administrations decades to wreck other peoples' economies!

  I wish you'd get it right... Radical Islamism is a genie which the US let out of the bottle and promoted to screw communism or whoever they wanted to screw because it suited them. The chooks are home to roost now and they don't like it because it stands in the way of their control of the Middle East and the MEGA ZILLIONS of bucks that can be made from its oil and the rebuilding contracts.

  George Bush wants $75 billion for the Iraqi war. The UN says about $10 billion would be needed to rebuild Iraq. So $65 billion will be spent on the video arcade bombing and on the ground killing adventure, and that includes "AID" (graft!) to impoverished countries to support the war. George knows he and his dad and his mates will make a killing financially. The money won't go back to the American people who are going to pay for it but to George's Club. It's called Corporate Welfare (!) and if you haven't noticed it, it's in full swing as per the Government handouts to the large corporations. They have their snouts in the public money trough, JP, and it's all perfectly kosher.

  Just ask yourself for example why a stainless steel bolt, an ordinary stainless steel bolt, can cost the US government $150 when it comes to the armaments industry. Throw in the kickbacks from the "defence" contractors and you'll begin to understand why it PAYS to have wars, provided you have a well developed and overcapacitated armaments industry.

  Sorry for sidetracking here folks... Back to the Milosevic trial...
  
  David
  Australia

• Thursday April 03, 2003 at 2:19 am
  Of all the Serb detention camps they picked the one in Batkovic!

  I remember having read an International Red Cross report from 1992. or 1993. reporting the situation in the camp:

  - The prisonners had to partake in forced labour however were allowed to return to their homes during the evening (remember this was miles from any front line so they couldn't even flee anywhere)

  - They had a TV in a room somewhere where they would eat (and watch TV at the sime time I presume)

  - The prisonners used the same lattrines as the prison guards.

  I remember having read this and the only reason why I remembered the village of Batkovic (near Bijeljina) was because I was surprised at what kind of detainment conditions were being compared to concentration camps from WWII (or WW I in the Serbs' case in Austria-Hungary especially in Bosnia). This was all in the so-called "Black book of Bosnia-Hercegovina" published with the obvious intention of bringing to light human rights reports which were damaging to the Serbs. I will find the book again and get the exact date and number of the Red Cross report...
  
  Igor Jaramaz
  Canada

• Thursday April 03, 2003 at 2:31 am
  Iraq - Open Letter to Tony Blair
  
  Dennis Revell
  USA

• Thursday April 03, 2003 at 3:06 am
  For those who are interested, here's a link to a number of Milosevic interviews:

  http://www.siri-us.com/backgrounders/Archives_Kosovo/Kosovo-Milosevic.html

  Judge for yourselves.
  
  David
  Australia

• Thursday April 03, 2003 at 3:08 am
  Pera Bora,

  Yes you heard right, there will be an Inquisition in Serbia and the chief inquisitor is the widely-despised Petar Lukovic who has to resort to foul language in his editorials so as to get more attention. Anyone found to have criticized DJindjic will now automatically become an accomplice to his killing.

  Arandjel,

  I don't agree with many of the things you write but this one just topped them all. You actually claim that Ivan Stambolic was a threat to Slobodan Milosevic? Maybe he would have gotten the votes of old communists like Zarko Korac, Latinka Perovic, Sonja Biserko, Natasa Kandic, Vesna Pesic, Vojin Dimitrijevic and Petar Lukovic but that crowd never really supported Milosevic anyway. Milosevic having a remote interest in seeing Stambolic killed would be an understatement. The old Titoist pre VIII plenum (September 1987 when Milosevic took over the LC of Serbia) guys, most of whom I mentionned above, were and still are totally defunct characters when it comes to modern Serb politics. Were it not for uncle Tom's and incompetenet politicians the likes of Stambolic, Milosevic's rise to power would not have been so easy. Milosevic took over the whole League of Communists of Serbia in terms of years after he befriended Stambolic whereas other apparatchiks spent 20 years in public functions of all sorts. Slobo just came there and conquered, this was because Tito left Serbia with a leadership made up of idiots after the 1970's. Somebody had to accept the 1974 Constitution and not even a Serb Communist with half a brain would!

  Gavrilovic's case is indeed interesting. He was killed near 15 John Kennedy Street (if I remember right? I have a friend who I visited a few days later a few numbers down) on August 3rd of 2001 right after he had a meeting with Vojislav Kostunica. He was DJindjic's personal friend and had helped evacuate him to Herceg-Novi during the bombing. As soon as the news was heard that he was assasinated after having talked to Kostunica Zarko Korac and Dusan Mihajlovic, on behalf of the government of Zoran Djindjic held a press conference and were sweating like pigs asking all kinds of confusing questions such as "We want to know what Gavrilovic talked about with Kostunica if he did". Nobody had even accused them of anything and they were already being quite defensive, which is often a telltale sign of guilt.

  As far as Ceca's arsenal is concerned it isn't anything you would go to prison for in Canada or the US, let alone warrant such behaviour by the police. I believe they found only 21 pistols and revolvers (if she has permits for those, heck she must have lots of bodyguards), some 7,62 mill ammo (but no gun, in effect, you can't kill anyone with bullets), nightsticks, handcuffs, some Hechler&Koch scopes (but no gun - big deal I can buy those without a gun permit in Serbia, Canada or the US) and a crossbow/arbalest (samostrel in Serbian so as not to confuse you and teach you a new word or two) which is in effect a hunting weapon and not anything you could carry as a concealed weapon. As well, most of this gear, along with Vukovar plates (where her former hubby Arkan was stationned during war, actually he was in Erdut, which uses Vukovar plates) were all hidden in some sort of a bunker. This means that they were either millitaria (memorabilia) or some sort of emergency cache. Ceca didn't have to have weapons in her house, she had some very nasty friends in high places (like so many Serb 'pop' singers) so nobody dared mess with her and thus the very meagre array of 'weaponry'.

  And yes I claim that the killing and kidnapping of Stambolic served DOS more than it did Milosevic. Just look at the result, Stambolic was never a threat to Milosevic politically, Kostunica was a much bigger one and even Sloba knew this.

  As far as some JSO member confessing to having killed Stambolic goes, you too would confess to having killed Ivan Stambolic, were you in his shoes (torture involving sleep depravation the oldest KGB tactic, electrical shocks, truncheoning or as we call it 'kundacenje' and classical threats involving family members). Aside from being ugly, torture has the adverse effect of getting the wrong guy to take the fall for the crime. Besides, I wouldn't trust anything the news media in Serbia says these days, they are obliged by law to report what the government says and can be fined if they contradict it. They also claimed that Legija is planning to rat out Mladic and Karadzic which I guess is the final act of demonization (they just forgot to mention that he still beats his wife as well). Covic came out and admitted that this was a lie but then had to back down.

  As far as the Curuvija killing goes, he was most probably killed by some mob clan or whoever it was that tried to kill his brother Jovo when he publicly demanded from Dusan Mihajlovic that his brother's killing be solved.

  No Milosevic did not make a politician out of Mihajlovic. He was just a 'cop' (pandur) in Slobo's days. Then he was embraced by the opposition during the protests of 96. He then founded his New Democracy party (recently renamed Liberal party or something like it), got some mandates from the opposition by partaking in the Zajedno coalition and then switched back to the SPS/JUL coalition in power. He is just a corrupt turncoat and his presence in the Ministry of internal affairs (MUP), which is supposed to arrest creeps like him, tells us a lot about the late Djindjic, his rump DOS coalition and THEIR ruling methods.
  
  Igor Jaramaz
  Canada

• Thursday April 03, 2003 at 3:46 am
  

  Dennis

  Re your Open Letter to Blair: Hats off to you, mate! Come down and we'll set you up as PM here. We sure could use a brain or two here. LOL
  
  David
  Australia

• Thursday April 03, 2003 at 5:20 am
  
  Out of the mouths of babes …

  A mother complained on the BBC Five Live chat show this morning that her child had written in an essay at school, about the rights and wrongs of the war on Iraq: “Blair is a selfish person”. This she blamed on the BBC after being assured that he was not taught this at the school. Clearly this Mum is upset that her hero Blair is described in this way. These ‘bar stewards’ always wow the Mums.

  The BBC announced this morning that British artillery was firing L20 shells into Basra from its AS90 guns. With a maximum range of 18 miles and an L20 shell canister containing cluster bomblets this is not a high precision weapon. The chance of causing civilian casualties when deployed in cities is high and the chance of causing deaths and severe injuries to children even higher because of the personnel mine effect due to the 5% failure rate on impact. No warning is given to the civilians to vacate these areas before the attacks.

  The principle charge against Milosevic in Kosovo is that he used disproportionate force when he used artillery and tanks to attack KLA positions even thought the Serbs took care to ask the civilians to leave before attacking the KLA. He is charged with killing under 391 persons. Kosovo was being invaded by the KLA and the Serbs had a right to defend themselves.

  Remember Ashdown’s testimony against Milosevic: "The British government has never used tanks, artillery, looting and burning to drive people out of their homes ..." Well it has now - although the looting is down to the uncontrolled civilian population caused by these atrocities.

  More from Ashdown’s testimony: "I have never denied, either in my evidence or so far as I know, in any other speeches or articles that I've written, that there was KLA activity, that innocent Serbs were suffering. But none of this, none of it, justifies or excuses the use of excessive, outrageous force by your armed forces, under your control, in an indiscriminate, punitive manner across the whole of the civilian population (of ethnic Albanians in Kosovo)." What “justifies or excuses the use of excessive, outrageous force” by armed forces under Blair’s control in Iraq?

  Blair is the supreme authority responsible for this deployment. Blair and Bush’s ‘Coalition of the Willing’ is again invading a sovereign country and has no legitimate reason to do so in the absence of UN authority. Blair’s war has caused some ten thousand casualties in just two weeks including some one thousand civilian dead and this is only the beginning of the bloodbath. Unless Blair is now tried as a war criminal this ICTY trial of Milosevic in the Kosovo phase is based on nonsense.

  With patience the removal of the West’s tyrant in Baghdad could have been effected without this appalling slaughter of the innocents.
  
  Peter Taylor
  Herts/UK

• Thursday April 03, 2003 at 5:26 am
  Igor

  The New Democracy Party was made up mostly members of secret police. It had no support. It was party even more small than GSS. Mihajlovic would never have got anywhere if he didnt have support of SPS leadership. They decided with JUL course to make electoral deal. Mihajlovic first became minister in SPS government. Some say Milosevic created ND. I dont say this (I have not evidence) but message is there.

  I said they were beating them in jail. So? You think they used to give sweets to people in jail in Milosevic time I suppose?

  What is the result of Stamoblic killing exactly to serve DOS? Yeah so DOS had Stambolic killed because they know in 2003 March Djindjic will be assasinated and then they could use Stambolic assasination to hurt Milosevic? Thats funny one! How bout Djindjic deaths helps DOS so Zivkovic pulled trigger. Welcome to Twilight Zone!

  Gavrilovic case is interesting of course but another case should be looked at. Vuk Draskovic who was once Serbias hope. Half of people arrested are ones he accused all way through. He may be without credit now and political nobody any more but its important fact.

  You are right about Milosevic and Stambolic to some level. Milosevic was smart and Stambolic stupid. Stambolic still had control of media, secret police and army. When Milosevic got in power he used this well. Stambolic looked like he was in shock that Milosevic could do this to him. But it is politics. But type of old communist is who I was talking about who might vote for Stambolic - maybe not more than 3-4 percent of SPS supporters but enough considering Kostunica was very close (and alredy selected) but again I dont say that is motive. Only thing I say is that DB / JOS were involved like in most assasinations in Serbia in last 5 years so include Curuvija

  Mr Bora my opinion about elections are if less than 50 percent vote then something is wrong with system not with people who dont vote. Political culture needs changes not numbers to let poltican rule without wide support.

  We in Serbia did not have state of law. Mafia had gone into every part of society, judges, public prosecutors, lawyers, police, secret police, paramilitary orgaisation. What is the point of respecting constitution if nobody else is doing it? Unless somebody tried to change it there is no good saying I believe in rule of law because other ones do not. This is the problem with Kostunica who sits and lecture about respect the law.

  What I do not understand 'Mr. Kostunica inherited Mr. Pavkovic from Mr. Milosevic government. Law did not allow him to remove Mr. Pavkovic personally.'

  Tell me who could remove Mr Pavkovic? Tell me why was Djindjic pressing to get rid of Pavkovic for over a year and why Kostunica resist? Article below is one at that time.

  http://news.suc.org/bydate/2000/Nov_08/6.html

  And if Kostunica was not allowed to remove him then how did he do it later on? He used decree. He was hiding behind law on this point. Pavkovic was useful to him because Djindjic had almost everyone else. It is not contravesy point believe me and more than that it is understandable why Kostunica keept Pavkovic.

  What worrys me more is Kostunica attitude agree sending MIlosevic to Hague. What you think about that?
  
  Arandjel P V
  Srbija

• Thursday April 03, 2003 at 6:52 am
  I think no one should ever vote for Kostunica again, Arandjel. You've made your point. You don't like him.

  What do you think about how May is treating Milosevic?
  
  David
  Australia

• Thursday April 03, 2003 at 8:59 am
  RE: S&M in CoE. They weren't, but they are now:

  Serbia-Montenegro Joins Council of Europe
  
  Alexei Gorbulski
  Brussels
  The rotten heart of Nato

• Thursday April 03, 2003 at 10:00 am
  Sorry David I wont talk about that point any more. Nothing is forever in politcs - if he does some changes I could support him.

  Havent seen much of trial since many weeks. Here there is no television. But May has high hand attitude but to all of them from what I see. Like Vera feels to me like B92 might stop transmission of trial, if I understand correctly. I am guilty of getting bored of trial I have to say. Its not good thing but this is probably common feeling since death of Djindjic. Probably why B92 might cut 'show' or least reason they will use. Now I rely on mix of Veras report and B92, CIJ, IWPR. Sad that there is not some agency / organisation doing fair transmission to make more balance. And yes of course particular CIJ and IWPR very biased but B92 is little better but still disapoint when they talk about Red Witch and other propoganda. Its shame somebody from TOL do not do covering trial they are bit better with reporting. But at least I am reading transcript of important testimony. This is in fact best way for me.
  
  Arandjel P V
  Srbija

• Thursday April 03, 2003 at 10:12 am
  And now something personal:

  The reason I take part in this discussion is not that I am supporter of Milosevic. Reason that I have is that for last 11 years I have been bombarded by anti Serb propaganda. I was supporter of Milosevic in Hague not because I believe in its justice, but because the records shall be opened and facts shall be presented. After all propaganda (Like “Harrison flowers” movie) I started thinking that maybe it was truth that Serbs did committed genocide. But now after listening, reading for a year about trial I am so glad and proud to be Serbian. We do not have lots of money and we do not have Arabs or Catholics working for us. But at least now we do know the truth (even though CNN will not publish it). I defend Serbian Interest because of the cartoons like these:

  http://compuserb.com/canadiandefenseleague/
  
  Dakic Ana
  Serbia

• Thursday April 03, 2003 at 10:18 am
  For those who speak Serbian

  IZ INATA
  
  Dakic Ana
  Serbia

• Thursday April 03, 2003 at 10:43 am
  Dakic Ana,

  Stay away from compuserb.com. A man named Boris Pribich runs that site. This man is a Ustasha. He is a Croat who masquerades as a Serb. He is a self-admitted Nazi.

  CompuSerb.com and the so-called "Serbian Defense League" deserve nothing but the most severe condemnation. The aim of those sites is to paint the Serbs as Nazis.
  
  Andy Wilcoxson
  Washington, United States

• Thursday April 03, 2003 at 10:48 am
  Thaks Andy

  Actually, I was just looking for picture of that dog. That picture was published in Canadian daily newspapers in 1999. In the middle of Eric Margolis article. My search pointed me to that site by your warning is well appreciated. Thanks again, I did not know about that site.
  
  Dakic Ana
  Serbia

• Thursday April 03, 2003 at 11:00 am
  Pasic

  You wrote:
  “Stambolic still had control of media, secret police and army. When Milosevic got in power he used this well.”

  I doubt that at the time Stambolic still had control of media, secret police and army. As I remember a man in charge at that time was Dobroslav Culafic. Who did not go well with his comrades Bosko Krunic and Marko Orlandic. Milosevic already got support from Culafic and Jovo Popovic among many others.

  You wrote:
  “Stambolic looked like he was in shock that Milosevic could do this to him.”

  He might have looked shocked but, then he was the only one that did not understand what was going on.
  And what Milosevic did to him? - Better read SANU memorandum from 1996 and read book “Sistem I Kriza” from 1984 and comments on it from Ema Derossi Bjelajac, understanding that you’ve already read Constitution from 1974.

  You wrote:
  “Only thing I say is that DB / JOS were involved like in most assasinations in Serbia in last 5 years so include Curuvija”

  You easily make accusations: somebody already asked you for whom they worked (Legija)?

  You wrote:
  “Mr Bora my opinion about elections are if less than 50 percent vote then something is wrong with system not with people who dont vote. Political culture needs changes not numbers to let poltican rule without wide support. “

  You are just supporting such a society.
  
  Pero Peric
  Canada

• Thursday April 03, 2003 at 11:05 am
  http://www.zmag.org/sustainers/content/2003-04/01grubacic.cfm

  very good article on why there were no big anti-war protest in Belgrade
  
  vesa v.
  france

• Thursday April 03, 2003 at 1:04 pm
  

  http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/03/international/worldspecial/03TURK.html?tntemail0

  Mr. Powell flew on to Belgrade for talks with the new prime minister of Serbia, Zoran Zivkovic, who took over the job after the assassination last month of Prime Minister Zoran Djindjic. The irony of Mr. Powell's visit, not lost on anyone in his entourage, was that hours after telling Turkish audiences of his hope that one day soon a war-ravaged Iraq would become a democracy reconstructed by the United States, the secretary found himself in a downtown still partly in ruins from the American bombs that landed there in 1999.
  
  Pera Bora
  Ottawa
  Canada

• Thursday April 03, 2003 at 2:25 pm
  The testimony of Bosnian “plenipotentiary” Ashdown was claiming that undue force was used in fighting the Albanian terrorists in Kosovo.

  I recommend reading this article published in British press:

  http://argument.independent.co.uk/commentators/story.jsp?story=393458

  It describes the horror of cluster bombs dropped on villages in Iraq. The standard US defense is that it is Iraqi army that uses civilians as human shields. This is absolute hypocrisy.

  I wonder whether the brutality of current war will have an impact on Milosevic trial?
  
  D. Jovanovic
  USA

• Thursday April 03, 2003 at 2:35 pm
  

  Look who is distroying Iraqi oil ifrastructure. I taught that the USA government has said that any attack on the Iraqi oil infrastructure is a war crime.

  U.S. commandos destroy Iraqi pipeline to Syria

  http://216.26.163.62/2003/ss_syria_04_02.html
  
  Pera Bora
  Canada
  Ottawa

• Thursday April 03, 2003 at 2:46 pm
  Ana Dakic,

  Ja, takodje - iz inata.

  When you're Serbian and you care this much it becomes a virtual obsession to find out the truth, but getting other people to care is another matter. I think we should all be writing to newspapers and making comparisons between Clinton's Kosovo and Bush's Iraq. (Especially when Kosovo is held up as an example of a successful campaign by that turd Blair.) For example, the West knows now, very well, that the market place massacre in Sarajevo was not committed by the Serbs but they never retracted that original message. They did, however, get ideas from it and when an American bomb recently massacred 60 persons in a market in Iraq, the first thing the U.S. did was to say that it was the Iraqis doing it to their own people to demonize the coalition forces in the eyes of Iraqis (as the muslims actually did do to their own people in Sarajevo). The trouble is that the market in Iraq was not attacked by Iraqis and there is proof now that it was an American weapon made in Texas that caused this "collateral damage." However, we won't hold our breath, will we, for the U.S. to retract this phony story either.
  
  Anna P
  California

• Thursday April 03, 2003 at 3:15 pm
  Mr. Peric I disagree with you. I believed in the rule of above of 50 % for many years. What I realized later is that there is less democracy in the societies where more than 90% of people vote then in the society where less then fifty percent of people vote. My main concern when it comes to the election is whether everybody has a chance to cast a vote under the equal conditions. If a party like reminder of DOS decides to boycott an election because they know that they will loose it they are hiding behind the law. If a party is saying that they have a support of the majority of the people and at the same time does not have its own candidate in the election something is terribly wrong. I think that I am allowed to question morality of this way of "hiding behind the law". My filling is that in the countries, in which the rule of less that 50% of voters is acceptable, are taking mentioned possibility of abuse of the law seriously and that they have adopted the rule of less then 50% in order to deal with this concern. Having said that I accepted the results of the elections in Serbia, because I think that a low should be respected regardless of my liking of it. It is up to people of Serbia what they like the best. I would like to be able to persuade at least some of them that my view is most useful to them. You have the same chance to influence them as me. That is perfectly O.K. I know quite a number of decent people here in Canada that never goes to cast their vote. I do not see anything wrong with them. It is their choice.
  
  Pera Bora
  Ottawa
  Canada

• Thursday April 03, 2003 at 5:46 pm
  

  Mr. Arandjel P wrote: We in Serbia did not have state of law. Mafia had gone into every part of society, judges, public prosecutors, lawyers, police, secret police, paramilitary orgaisation. What is the point of respecting constitution if nobody else is doing it? Unless somebody tried to change it there is no good saying I believe in rule of law because other ones do not. This is the problem with Kostunica who sits and lecture about respect the law.

  My comment:

  Mr. Arandjel at what point your and your friends will decide to respect laws and what laws you guys are going to chose to respect. Only ones that suites you guys??? If you and your friends in Serbia do not respect laws what criteria are you using to decide who is criminal and who is not? Mr. Kostunice has no problem, he is requesting for the laws to be respected by all, ones that do not respect laws and are mocking them have a problem they are simply criminals. No excuses please. You in Serbia have laws and in order to become law respectful people you have just to start respecting these laws that you already have otherwise you will not have a state of law. And let me tell you there are a lot of people that are respecting laws in Serbia now and every body except them is a criminal. One of the reasons that I was against Mr. Milosevic is that he had a liberal approach to respecting laws. To my biggest disappointment Mr. Djindjic and C.O. had even less respect of laws. The respect of the constitution should start with the politicians first. Especially ones that were selling them selves as saviors of the nation like Mr. Djindjic.

  Mr. Arandjel P wrote: Tell me who could remove Mr. Pavkovic? Tell me why was Djindjic pressing to get rid of Pavkovic for over a year and why Kostunica resist? Article below is one at that time..... ... Pavkovic was useful to him because Djindjic had almost everyone else...

  My comment:

  Can you first explain to me why Mr. Djindjic asked for Mr. Pavkovic's removal and at the same time was courting him in order to turn him against Mr. Kostunica. Where is moral ground in this??? Why Mr. Dindjic had to be exclusive person to whom all the Milosevic's Henchmen (the ICTY terminology) would be subjugated or otherwise thrown out of the government??? By constitution Mr. Pavkovic was to be subjugated to Mr. Kostunica and Mr. Djindjic wanted him out or subjugated against constitution to him. Where is moral ground in this??? Unless this was an unconstitutional grab of power that suited you and your friends and you approved of it for this simple reason.

  Mr. Arandjel P wrote:

  What worrys me more is Kostunica attitude agree sending MIlosevic to Hague. What you think about that?

  My comment:

  The only proof about THAT that I have seen was some "funny", severely shortened transcript of illegally taped phone call conversation that allegedly have happened between Mr. Djindjic and Mr. Kostunica given to the press by Mr. Djindjic. If I were you I would be more worried about new Inquisition in Serbia. Sorry not you. You are not criticizing the New God it's me, it's me. I cann't travel to visit Serbia I was throwing stones at the New God.

  Sorry guys this is a side issue. I will not comment on my political positions and preferences in Serbia any more. I made my self clear on the points that I care for.
  
  Pera Bora
  Ottawa
  Canada

• Thursday April 03, 2003 at 6:48 pm
  

  JP, I think that Islam is not a religion of peace as defined by Koran. But I agree with you that most of the Moslems are very friendly and peaceful people, since they do not follow Koran from A to Z. I make big difference between Moslems and Islamists.

  I think that deadly concoction comes in place when one combines Islamists with the CIA (Afghanistan + Pakistan). The other deadly combination is when the USA and GB, some others earlier, go to the traditionally Muslim countries rob, them of their valuables and make them angry, so angry that they use their Islamists combined with our technology and our trainig against us. They never attacked our churches, our museums, our Holly Wood studious, our restaurants, our theaters and so on and so on. They never stole our cultural monuments and we did theirs. Do you think that they would be using planes instead of smart bombs if they had any? Do you think that we would dare to rob them of their valuables if they had smart bombs and advantage in the other military technology as we do? Only desperate people are using desperate methods like suicide bombers or pilots. Nobody likes to die. They have right to get at us when we are mistreating them. They are not stupid. When they decide to die to avenge their grief they prefer to do it in the bang as big as possible. You surely know the saying that we all are encouraged to operate one: The biggest bang for a buck.

  Most of the money that I have lost in the stock market is because I believed in lies professed by our North American CEOs. In my case, my Canadian CEO of Nortel was the most damaging one. After the fall of the Twin Towers stock market went down for four weeks and recovered in the next four. The cause of this big swing was more manipulation of the big investment companies. Do you stile remember Enron and its management's lies and others that followed. Have you noticed how high prices of oil are affecting your budget. I think that the last two years they have been pushed up artificially just to fill up the budgets of our governments and Oil Mafia that is currently ruling USA. Before that we had technological Mafia and I was prospering at that time. There are many other economical reasons that are driving our economy down of which none have anything to do with Islamists. Since 911 our air traffic is very safe, but our governments are telling us that it is not and we believe in it. We are getting Orange/Red alerts and nothing is happening.

  Just one more thing. Do you sincerely think that the inhumane treatment and torture that people are getting at Gitmo Bush Zoo Gardens can be called debriefing or it is another jocke?
  
  Pera Bora
  Ottawa
  Canada

• Thursday April 03, 2003 at 8:28 pm
  To Pera Bora: Alas, you got it right, our 'Government' really decided to broaden the investigation against all its real, potential and imaginary enemies and to recruit for the task not only the Ministry of the Interior, but the Ministry of Culture and Information as well. The latter body has been charged with forming the Governmental Committee for Media Analysis (the incumbent Minister Lecic claimed no member has been appointed so far, although the name of the obnoxious journalist Petar Lukovic has been mentioned as the candidate for its Chairman). The editors-in-chief got understandably nervous, so Lecic organized a briefing to inform them the future body is to collect articles and statements from the media published over the last few years (?!), which might help the ongoing Djindjic murder investigation. Later on into the briefing he actually broadened that scope onto the series of other murders and crimes. Even further on, he stated that all the material collected would be presented also to a group of independent journalists (who might be these?), to analyse it from the professional point of view. To translate all that into plain speaking: the target are both the public figures through their statements and interviews and the journalists and editors who reported and/or analysed it. First the Police will fish out all those to whom the Djindjic murder plot participation/incitement could be safely ascribed, then those with any possible mentioning of all other crimes and finally the journalists who wrote about all that. No wonder people are worried.

  But, there are small signs showing that reason is still not completely abolished here, like that NUNS (Independent Association of the Journalists of Serbia) negative reaction that you mentioned. And today the most respectable daily POLITIKA dared to print a tiny inbox containing the statement of SPO (Serbian Renewal Movement), the Party of Vuk Draskovic (BTW, the individual analysis of our politicians provided by Arandjel is rude but most of it is accurate). It's true that Draskovic is politically insignificant and probably the least fit for a politician (he should have remained a writer), but I applaud him for this, and especially for bluntly listing the all-too-well-known liaison dangereux between mobsters from both the Surcin and the Zemun clan and DOS after their '5 October revolution' that has brought them to power. And I applaud POLITIKA. Here's my translation of the little article:

  "SPO: JOURNALISTS NOT TO BE BLAMED FOR THE DEATH OF ZORAN DJINDJIC The forming of the Governmental Committee for Media Analysis, at the request of the Ministry of the Interior of Serbia, on account of the alleged connections with criminal circles, reminds one of the Zdanov-type method of control over journalists in times when they were mere transmitters of the news fabricated by the former regimes, it is said in the SPO statement. 'During this latest campaign against the media, under the auspices of the state of emergency, it should be remembered that the journalists were not the ones who have abolished serial killers and criminals after 5 October, that they were not the ones who declared the latter heroes, or who sat with them in the central box at the horse-races, who visited Kotobanja in Surcin, who celebrated the Serbian New Year with Legija and Red Berets in Kula, who enjoyed the séances in the Silerova Street with the ring-leaders of state terrorism and mafia bosses of Serbia', SPO declared."

  To Dan B: After Nice openly hinted in court that the new 'situation' here could provide him with more relevant witnesses and info (he does badly need those; so much for the presumed separation of dirty politics here and in the ICTY), nothing definite has materialized yet, except for a test balloon in the form of a story from an anonymous 'usually well informed source' stating that Legija had contacted the Prosecution, offering info on Karadzic & Mladic whereabouts in exchange for his protection and new identity. This was immediately debunked by no others than 'Government' Vice-President and Prime Minister: Covic said Legija has 'no such merchandize to deliver' (speaking as a true connoisseur) and Zivkovic said he hoped the Holy ICTY would not stoop to dealing with a criminal (as if that had prevented the ICTY so far - remember a 'baby-killer' witness who testified via link because he was a wanted criminal without a passport; and K2 witness, who confessed openly to have participated in the Arkan killing). And surely, the arrested Jovica Stanisic, Frenki Simatovic and Nebojsa Pavkovic, all on the ICTY list of suspects, are being gently persuaded to volunteer as witnesses, instead of becoming the ICTY indictees. As for people trying to help Milosevic from here, those arrested from the 'Sloboda' Association will find it difficult to go on doing that from their jail cell; the team of his lawyers is still at large, but the hunt has just started.

  Here's one telltale Freudian slip of the tongue (or, as our folk saying goes: Sto na umu, to na drumu = What's on your mind, comes in the open by itself). Our new Prime Minister Zivkovic participated yesterday at some important-sounding international conference on the US-Europe relations (where the US sent lower-level officials) in Athens, and mentioning Djindjic, he actually blurted out the following: "The system has remained intact, and it could be easily said that it had been even strengthened by this victim." Indeed!
  
  Vera Martinovic
  Belgrade
  Yugoslavia

• Thursday April 03, 2003 at 8:46 pm
  Welcome to the land of ‘THE BIG LIE”, the good old USA. Americans on this page don’t get offended; I am talking about your government. Today history of your country is sick but than again so are the ones leading you. They are the zoo keepers and they are washing your brains to be clean of any moral fiber just like their own.

  It is Iraqi children’s “Blood for Oil” war that they lie to you about. What an April fool’s joke they have played on you. The greed of corporate profit is all around us. The dot.com companies and mutual fund peddlers have no problem in robbing the elderly of their pensions through fraud and more lies. The Rumsfelds of the world are their messengers.

  The cost of this war some state will be $500 billion over 10 years. Given a multiplier effect at approximately 4 times, this equates to two trillion in economic wealth spin-off over that time. Using the same multiplier, the US investment in the military (presently $400 billion annually) creates $1.6 trillion in economic spin-off. Over 10 years, that is $16 trillion in economic wealth. It is about selling death.

  Of course the war is about oil-securing Middle East oil that is. In 1920 Britain used mustard and chlorine gas in order to hold onto Iraq. In 1928 they conveniently took Kuwait out of Iraq for themselves through the Saba family proxies. The Saba family not only allowed the British Petroleum Company to market the oil in the West for large profits, they invested their private profits in the West as well. Who will be the Judas in Iraq? The Judas’s are tripping over each other in Belgrade.

  The 1991 Gulf War was fought to secure the oil, as was the Iraq/Iran war, which Saddam Hussein fought for us. We provided the chemicals and the weapons, and he used them with our blessing. Or was it Iran that used the chemicals and it was a convenient lie to demonize Saddam, who by the way did not need our help in that department.

  To get Saudi Arabia on board, America fabricated a threat from Iraq and the Saudis bought it and allowed them to station troops on their soil. The threat to the Saudis was from their own people who had enough of Western robbery and were ready to topple the repressive regime. The leader of the movement was Osama bin Ladn and a dozen or so other Saudis. With American forces stationed there, the oppressive Saudi regime was saved, oil was safeguarded, and America had a base in the region. Nice neat package. The question is “did they open Pandora’s Box or did they rub Aladdin’s Lamp?’

  Saudi Arabia, the second richest oil producer in the world is in debt to the West for $160 billion. Why? Osama wanted to know this as well. This is due to the fact that not only oil leaves the region but most of the money as well. And where does it go? You got it-the good old USA. So you critics are right it not to safeguard the oil, 2.6 trillion dollars worth, for the Iraqis but to get it all for America and make sure that those other stooges, the Saudis, don’t renege on their loans. As for Iraq being a small potato in the oil world, you critics conveniently use current figures for Iraq, which only produces oil for food, a very small amount of what it is capable of supplying.

  As for Hussein being a terrorist threat, I would agree, he is by example only. Saddam is no democrat. In fact he is a dictator, no better, no worse than many dictators America has and continues to support around the world. His big mistake was nationalization of Iraqi oil in 1972. America did not want this precedent to change the status quo in the oil states of the Middle East.

  There is no evidence that he was involved in the attacks of 9/11. Osama hates Saddam, so you critics like JP, the conclusion on terrorism is a red herring. YOU ARE A VICTIM OF A BIG LIE. I don’t speak Iraqi, but I believe their mumbo jumbo more than what I hear from Rumsfeld, Bush, CNN and all the other poodles who salivate like Pavlovian dogs. Given the dynamics of the Middle East, if Iraq and Saddam did not exist, the West would have had to invent them.
  
  Walter Trkla
  Kamloops BC
  Canada

• Thursday April 03, 2003 at 9:36 pm
  

  Wow, Walter!

  Brilliant analysis! How come we can't get things like that discussed by the big media interests?

  Vera

  What an unfortunate Freudian slip by Zivkovic that was! So if Milosevic ordered the Djindjic assassination, Milosevic has actually done Serbia (and Dos by extension) a big favour according to Zivkovic? :-)

  The least they could do is send him some assistance at the ICTY in return, seeing as how the YU state normally would provide a Public Defender for anyone charged with a crime anyway. Now that would be a right proper example of cooperation.

  Evening out the odds at the ICTY in the interests of justice should also go down well with the Council of Europe too. :-)
  
  David
  Australia

• Thursday April 03, 2003 at 9:38 pm
  Mr. Trkla, Splendid post! Would you please elaborate on 160 bn debt Saudies have to US. Where that comes from?
  
  D. Jovanovic
  USA

• Thursday April 03, 2003 at 10:11 pm
  Thanks, David, re kind comments on my open letter.

  Looks like the Iraqi people will soon be liberated and treated to the sweetness, reason and light of non-stop CNN, zillions of Western NGO's. After all, that model worked so well in the former Yugoslavia. The delightful Mr. Chalabi, may well be key in teaching them democracy at some stage, I hope they enjoy puppet shows.

  Think you're being a bit hard on yourself and your fellow Aussies, though. I'm sure you have more than a couple of great brains down there; but sure I'll come down, naturalise and become your PM, for a crate of Fosters ;-) and on a non-negotiable manifesto of trying your current PM for War-Crimes.

  Methinks it might bear keeping an eye on Cuba at the moment, what with all the Iraqi distractions going on. Two Cubana airline hijackings in barely as many days, and I just heard a tiny snippet of something about a passenger boat full of passengers hijacked from some Cuban harbour.

  Here's how the US treats people who hijack airplanes at knife-point, when those airplanes are Cuban that is: the hijackers get bond!!! And how they treat those airplanes afterwards:-

  "The Monroe County Sheriff's Office seized the DC-3 on Friday, and set a date of April 28 for its auction to pay off part of a $27 million judgment against Cuba obtained by Ana Margarita Martinez, the duped ex-wife of a Cuban spy."

  Feels like I've just stood in something warm, steamy, sloppy and unpleasant, with a hugely offensive smell. I look down at my shoe, and there it is, the CIA.
  
  Dennis Revell
  USA

• Thursday April 03, 2003 at 10:36 pm
  Thank you Vera, I have read that the may have also confiscated the computers of some of the officials in 'sloboda'.

  I wonder if the media in Belgrade has reported anything on the effects this will have on his cross-examination/defence as Mrs. Armatta claimed

  "One is tempted to wonder whether Milosevic's sources in Serbia have dried up lately. If today's cross examination is any indication, recent events in Serbia may have at least an indirect impact on the Milosevic trial. Perhaps witnesses will experience fewer threats as well."
  
  Dan B
  Canada

• Thursday April 03, 2003 at 10:43 pm
  Does anyone have any background info on Perica Vuèiniæ and his Reporter magazine?
  
  David
  Australia

• Thursday April 03, 2003 at 11:08 pm
  

  Dan

  I would say recent events in YU wil have a DIRECT effect on the Milosevic trial. And more than likely witnesses will experience more threats as well, and not necessarily from Milosevic either.

  One should NOT UNDERESTIMATE the role of the "cooperation with the ICTY" requirement in the context of the current events. Powell keeps stressing this, because big things are at stake in the ICTY! Much bigger than Milosevic's fate. If Milosevic demonstrates that the YU wars were NOT because of him and because of the Serbs' "Greater Serbia Project", then someone else has to be responsible for the entire mess, including the bombing of YU.

  No prizes for guessing who! Nor for guessing to what lengths they will go to avoid the truth coming out, because that will flow on to events in other countries such as Iraq etc. Big, big problems if Milosevic is successful. And we can't have that, can we?

  Dennis

  Don't tell me! :-) ... "something warm, steamy, sloppy and unpleasant, with a hugely offensive smell" have managed to establish a link between Castro and hijackers! I guess it was bound to happen sooner or later. All that remains is the link to 911 and the mafia is back in Havana! They may even open up the "classified docs" about Castro's successful plot to kill Kennedy because Fidel suspected JFK of foolin' with his cigars and his woman? Could be a prelude to another "friendly" corporate takeover. Can we expect flowers and kisses on the streets of Havana now that there are no Soviet nukes in the way? :-)
  
  David
  Australia