 MILOSEVIC TRIAL DISCUSSION ARCHIVE |
| JURIST >> LEGAL NEWS - WORLD LAW >> Discussion >> Milosevic Trial Discussion Archive |
—————————————————————————————
Former Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic is on trial for war crimes in the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia at The Hague. This marks the first time a head of state has been personally prosecuted before an international criminal court.
Is Slobodan Milosevic getting a fair trial?
————————————————————————————
NOTICE: Comments posted to this discussion board are solely the responsibility of individual posters, and not of JURIST, its owner, operators, host or staff. JURIST reserves the right to block or remove posts that are in violation of law or that advocate illegal acts, that are obscene, disruptive, defamatory, threatening, harassing or abusive, that are in breach of intellectual property rights, rights of publicity or rights of privacy, that are advertisements or solicitations, or that are not related to the topic being discussed.
————————————————————————————
- discussion archive
- Friday April 04, 2003 at 12:04 am
Re: Governmental Committee for Media AnalysisNino Brajovic, President of the Press Association said:
"It would be far more natural if suspicions were investigated than to subject the public and the media to a reminder that media reports are to be analysed, by which means a high level of self censorship will be imposed both immediately and in the future". (Otherwise known as gagging the media, today and in the future). It is significant that the Government declaration says that the goal is the discovery of persons who are providing information which the Government considers intelligence related, or more precisely information which is of high significance to security. I don't see that there is any blame to be attached to the media."
Is someone in the Government referring to critics of the government (or whistle blowers) or was it just another Freudian slip.
Hardly a simple matter of analysing negative commentaries against Djindjic, is it!
And it's all going to be done NOT by professional investigators but by The Ministry of Culture and Information! What culture that breeds and fosters remains to be seen. So far it's no doubt the culture of Cooperation... "Yes, sir, yes, sir, three bags-full, sir... ". Whatever the case, the provision of any information to Milosevic (or Seselj) could well be curtailed and tantamount to treason and breaches of national security.
David
Australia - Friday April 04, 2003 at 3:48 am
Dan,The Government of Serbia did confiscate computers from Sloboda members. My website puts me in direct contact with Sloboda, and I can tell you for sure that the computers were confiscated, this is an absolute fact.
Not only are they taking the computers, but they are also arresting Sloboda members, including Sloboda's president, and falsely accusing them of ties to Zemun.
It seems that anybody who that quisling government dosen't like is "tied to Zemun." What an amazing coencidence.
Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States - Friday April 04, 2003 at 4:27 am
Mr BoraMe and my friends (I am mafia or what? who you presume you know???) do not break laws apart from to buy illegal CD from the market. Thanks. Maybe Canda society isnt criminalised as in Serbia but doesnt make all of us criminals. Thanks.
You are the one who is defending Kostunica position it is up to you to explain it. I dont defend Djidnjic policy. You are Kostunica supporter. Thats fair but that does not make me support Djindjic. Only thing to say is that Djindjic never pretend to be honest while Kostunica does. This way Kostunica honesty is more in question.
Next time drug dealer tries to sell me drugs I will show them copy of constitution and tell them in hard way 'You must obey this, no excuses Mr Kostunica says it' and all countrys problems will be solved.
By way do not assume I am criminal because I dont support Kostunica its not nice or civilized behavour
Thanks Vera for at least agree with something. But as maybe you also think most of those idiots deserve us to be rude about them. But Vera on more serious point your English is better and maybe some people would like to know about alegations appear in DAN newspaper in Montenegro today.
Im thinking of Andy and others. Today headline in DAN (on the internet) is Mihajlovic connected with Djindjic murder. They say that Milosevic also agree with this theory and talk about how Mihajlovic visit British embassy to speak with MI6 and so on. Anyone who can read Serbian should try to see it
http://www.revijad.cg.yu/dan/
Course its just gossip but question I ask is why didnt I think to visit montenegrian web site before. They are in some way excluded from state of emergency. Keep in mind that the newspapers also have agenda. Usually total pro Djukanovic / Djindjic or completely against Djindjic / DOS / Djukanovic.
But fool Mihajlovic to plan number of murders in last many years including invoved in Djindjic one? Just can not believe it.
Arandjel P V
Srbija - Friday April 04, 2003 at 6:57 am
"Later in 1992, as the civil war in the former Yugoslavia became increasingly topical, I started to work primarily on operations in Serbia. During this time, I became acquainted with Dr Nicholas Bernard Frank FISHWICK, born 1958, the MI6 officer who at the time was in charge of planning Balkan operations. During one meeting with DR Fishwick, he casually showed to me a three-page document that on closer inspection turned out to be an outline plan to assassinate the Serbian leader President Slobodan Milosevic. The plan was fully typed, and attached to a yellow "minute board", signifying that this was a formal and accountable document. It will therefore still be in existence. ... ... This plan contained a political justification for the assassination of Milosevic, followed by three outline proposals on how to achieve this objective. I firmly believe that the third of these scenarios contained information that could be useful in establishing the causes of death of Henri Paul, the Princess of Wales, and Dodi Al Fayed. This third scenario suggested that Milosevic could be assassinated by causing his personal limousine to crash. Dr Fishwick proposed to arrange the crash in a tunnel, because the proximity of concrete close to the road would ensure that the crash would be sufficiently violent to cause death of serious injury, and would also reduce the possibility that there might be independent, casual witnesses. Dr Fishwick suggested that one way to cause the crash might be to disorientate the chauffeur using a strobe flash gun, a device which is occasionally deployed by special forces to, for example, flash, gun, a device which is occasionally deployed by special forces to, for example, disorientate helicopter pilots or terrorists, and about which MI6 officers are briefed about during their training. In short, this scenario bore remarkable similarities to the circumstances and witness accounts of the crash that killed the Princess of Wales, Dodi Al Fayed, and Henri Paul. I firmly believe that this document should be yielded by MI6 to the Judge investigating these deaths and would provide further leads that he could follow."
Dennis Revell
USA - Friday April 04, 2003 at 7:16 am
So Arandjel, how does a collaborator of Milosevic's, who was a link between military security, civilian security, political parties and student organisations, manage to become Minister of the Interior (chief law enforcement officer) in a "democratic" Dos government under Djindjic?When you get rid of the rotten and corrupt politicians on all sides, then you might get your country back too. Otherwise it's a case of one gang of criminals getting rid of another.
Perhaps the people should NOT APPROVE a new constitution which denies them that power. At the very least the people should REFUSE a Constitution which allows the politicians to disempower the people so much.
The drawing up of the new constitution is your best chance to start afresh.
David
Australia - Friday April 04, 2003 at 8:41 am
DavidI could not agree with you more. But what can I do? The idiots who assasinated Djindjic if they were connected with 'patriotic front' gave perfect excuse.
Media right now is terrible. Constitution is under consideration. Media will continue to be this way for some time obey masters.
There is still not any sign of people to get impatient with the situation even if most of Zemun clan is caught. Maybe I can share two rumours with you. One I read few days ago about how Siptar and Kum were caught. Branko Bridge in Belgrade was closed down same day when they were found. Report says maybe they arrested, interrogated (introgation is my theori), then killed/ After that they were put in that small house in country.
Second one that Bagsy went there and killed them, my theori is that if he did do this police might know about it and gave him freedom as reward. We will see but something very suspicous about Bagsy role in this.
Few points emergency means in already gossip society we know less than before and police as usual abuse situation for politicans.
Second one constitution will be approved whether people want or not. Personaly dont have solution since old one didnt work. Its not actually constitution that problem is implemtion and way government abuses it.
Arandjel P V
Srbija - Friday April 04, 2003 at 8:49 am
Arandjel, I thought you had to have a referendum on the new constitution. Can't the students and academics and so on start a movement for a proper constitution which the politicians can't change? A constitution with basic rights and safeguards for the people. One that only allows a state of emergency if Parliament AND President approve maybe?
David
Australia - Friday April 04, 2003 at 9:10 am
DavidI agree, Or at least being forced to justify “state of emergency” in front of the parliament in two weeks time.
Dakic Ana
Serbia - Friday April 04, 2003 at 9:49 am
You're right Ana. What's the difference between what Milosevic did and what they're doing? In fact, Milosevic probably had more cause to declare a state of emergency. Don't tell me the "democrats" are going to smash the people worse than Milosevic? That just wouldn't do, would it? If the people want democracy, they have to work for it. Or was their idea of democracy just to get rid of Milosevic and get a Mihajlovic or whoever?
David
Australia - Friday April 04, 2003 at 10:12 am
Humanitarianism?Why Iraqi women and children are being slaughtered and the arms and legs of survivors being ripped off with cluster bomblets as in Serbia.
Forget Blair’s impassioned insincerity:
There are many things driving President Bush and his administration to invade Iraq, unseat Saddam Hussein and take over the country. But the biggest one is hidden and very, very simple. It is about the currency used to trade oil and consequently, who will dominate the world economically, in the foreseeable future -- the USA or the European Union.
Iraq is a European Union beachhead in that confrontation. America had a monopoly on the oil trade, with the US dollar being the fiat currency, but Iraq broke ranks in 1999, started to trade oil in the EU's euros, and profited. If America invades Iraq and takes over, it will hurl the EU and its euro back into the sea and make America's position as the dominant economic power in the world all but impregnable.
It is the biggest grab for world power in modern times.
America's allies in the invasion, Britain and Australia, are betting America will win and that they will get some trickle-down benefits for jumping on to the US bandwagon.
For those who believe this is all nonsense there is a simple test. Let us see if France and Russia’s existing unique contracts to dispense Iraqi oil survive the Anglo/US administration of post-war Iraq?
Blair and his cronies have rigged the ICTY so he will never appear there but there is no reason why he should not appear before the ICC to account for his war crimes in Iraq.
Peter Taylor
Herts/UK - Friday April 04, 2003 at 11:02 am
Referendum you are joking?There was never referendum here. Its not to do with Burke concept either, its do with attitude of politicans who think they have right to make all decisions. (maybe that is old burk concept after all)
Nobody ask the people here. Student and academic have history of being against each other in last decade anyway. But instead politican use media to try brainwash, then we follow, then they get what they want. Its easy really. Thats why situation is sad. But again I know these fools. Its other ones I worry for who think 'this one is really honest' or 'he is thinking only of the people'. When I hear this then I start to get depressed and little bit angry. Good thing is there so much evidence to show that their faith not justified. Bad thing is they dont listen anyway.
Point is David that situation is not similar with Milosevic for reason that people still support State of Emergency. Soon as I hear some questioning from people in street then you will be first to tell. If people went into the streets that would be interesting. The real test would come for me and nation I believe. Are DOS better than Milosevic or would they use uniform and ununiforme police to beat the crowd? If there was protest now I would go and if they beat me again god knows I would never forgive them.
Arandjel P V
Srbija - Friday April 04, 2003 at 1:52 pm
Pera Bora.Regarding more than 50% vote; I just reposted what Mr. Pasic was saying.
Obviously I agreed with him on the majority of vote.
It could appear that society with less then 50% voters of electoral body is more orderly established, but in fact it is selected democracy and it is more plutocracy and oligarchy. I would agree that one could see more order and efficiency, in such a societies, but no democracy.Such a society has more sophisticated means to deprive own/other population of its rights, like you and Walter pointed out in couple of previous posts. (Enron, Global Crossing, Nortel Telecom, JD Uniphase, World Com, Wars etc)
In order to use these "instruments" one has to make majority of population apolitical first and the rest brainwashed, then society is left with only selected to make crucial decisions. I don’t see the difference between imposing wealth threshold (i.e. possessing $ mil US in order to buy rights to vote) or having more than 50% unwilling to vote. I would say it is only an elegant way to avoid calling a spade a spade.
For example if you impose threshold on Western legislators that only those of over $50 million US can be members - Would you get anyone from the current assemblies out? - Obviously no.
So there is no real life and ordinary people representatives. (No DEMOS KRATIA).In late 70s I was teasing my neighbor back home in Belgrade that with a new law on income taxes he would have had to pay income tax. He replied - “I am not worried about it since these who were going to impose income threshold, they have more income than I do, and they are not going to tax themselves”.
Peter Taylor I agree with you on the currency issue, and the grab for world power. One of the maps on Yahoo shows all oil operations in last decade:
Mr. Jovanovic
If you go on yahoo or google search you can find plenty of material related to Saudi Arabia debt. It all started in nineties.
Pero Peric
Canada - Friday April 04, 2003 at 3:05 pm
Serb Police Issue Warrant for Milosevic Wife
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La - Friday April 04, 2003 at 4:27 pm
If you add to Gogol's link this one then... My wildest dreams...
Djindjic began the painful process of putting his country on the path toward rejoining European civilization. It can only be completed after tribunal at The Hague is dissolved.
http://www.washtimes.com/commentary/20030401-22110423.htm
j m
s - Friday April 04, 2003 at 5:13 pm
Pero Peric, as we all know there is no ideal democracy. Every one has his own Shangila image of it, as Gogol is pointing it out. To build something functional one has to make choices. I have made mine and you have make yours. Usually in the counties where a rule of fewer than 50% of votes is applied the majority of the people adopts the rule or majority of their representatives. My view is that this has nothing to do with dishonest CEO-s. My acceptance of this rule does not mean that I support the following one that you are mentioning: "For example if you impose threshold on Western legislators that only those of over $50 million US can be members." If you want to organize a coalition of Canadian Citizens that would fight this rule I will join in. I was never trying to sell the Canadian Constitution to others.
As I have said I have accepted the results of the last Serbian elections regardless of the fact that I do not like the rule of more then 50%. Mr. Kostunica and his party and followers accepted too. They had some other complaints, as well, but once when the Supreme Court ruled on them they accepted it.
My dispute with Arandjel is not about this issue. It is much deeper one. It is about: Can a constitution or a fundamental law of a country or organization be applied selectively and arbitrarily. Does misuse of the Serbian constitution and other laws by Mr. Milosevic make all previously listed laws invalid. The other key question is: Can self-proclaimed democrats, once elected, decide not to follow existing laws and start replacing them with interim measures, as they please or see them fit, instead of bringing in proper laws and applying them. Nobody can tell me that there was no time for this and that they had no sufficient majority in the Parliament to do it or that the existing constitution and laws have prevented them from doing it. This is my view of this dispute. At this very issue Mr. Djindjic became for me big disappointment and a falling star.
The reason that we are blessed with the ICTY is because the charter of the UN was not followed. The war on Iraq is possible because the Constitution of the USA was ignored and ... The devastating resolution of the Former Yugoslavia is a direct consequence of disrespect of its constitution. The rule of Mr. Milosevic in Serbia was not devastating because of the bad Constitution and because the other laws were bad but because they were not adhered to. The failure of the ruling part of the DOS is caused by disrespect of the constitution and other laws. In all the above cases relevant laws were or are applied selectively and arbitrarily. There is no law or a constitution that can solve these problems. It is up to the people to accept to follow them or not. When I ran into politicians like Mr. Kostunica, Mr. Labus and Mr. Micunovic that them selves insist on this principle I have great respect for them. Can I request of them to follow them 100%. Yes I can set any standard that I want. Would they? No they are human? Of these three I have seen that they are tying to and in most cases they are.
I actually think that the whole issue: Is Mr. Milosevic getting a fair trial revolves around these fundamental issues?
As Jary is saying when something that is illegal becomes legitimate we are dealing with DECONSTRUCTION.
We are going around these central issues in a spiral as any other group of honest democratic people trying to find and resolve a route cause of a problem. I hope that most of the time we are moving towards the center of the spiral.
Pera Bora
Ottawa
Canada - Friday April 04, 2003 at 5:34 pm
Government ministers approved a law change Friday to make it easier to extradite war criminals to a U.N. tribunal in the Netherlands, a top official said.
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La - Friday April 04, 2003 at 5:47 pm
Since when government ministers can make or change Law?
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La - Friday April 04, 2003 at 5:52 pm
That Mira Markoviæ was accused not a long time ago of illigally assigning an appartment to a nanny is a fact. (Little conspiracy theorist in my mind: they were testing the situation in Serbia for a trial, but not of hers, rather the one of her husband, and if Serbs would stand it, and if the courts would be able to carry out the task. The result: negative.)
That in Djindjiæ's murder you can smell a rat is a fact. (Little conspiracy theorist in my mind: the only purpose of Djindjiæ's murder is to get Serbia ready for the trial.)
That Mira Markoviæ is accused once again, this time of a much more serious crime is a fact. (Little conspiracy theorist in my mind: The test repeated).
j m
s - Friday April 04, 2003 at 6:19 pm
Just listening to 'talk radio' out of Milwaukee, Wis. Host Mark Bellings is critizing a Wisconsin Representative, Klectsha, for making the following statement, para phase " this is the first time we bombed a country ( Iraq) with no justifications".Mark said " what about Kosovo? Milosevic and Kosovo did absolutely nothing to justify the bombing, yet that's what Clinton and the Democrats did". The next caller chimed in saying essentially the same thing, Milosevic did nothing to get bombed, and he can't be comparable to Saddam!
May not seem like a lot, but this talk show has a big market in the area, and there are still 'many' convinced the Kosovo bombing was not only illegal but shamefull.
Question, are there 'radio talk shows' in Serbia, England, or Australia (David)?
1st week of April and we have winter storm warning, everything is at a standstill, even the 'kids' are not going to school.
J P
USA.Wis - Friday April 04, 2003 at 7:00 pm
Ex-CIA director: U.S. faces 'World War IV'
http://www.iraqwar.ru/iraq-read_article.php?articleId=1773&lang=en
Pera Bora
Ottawa
Canada - Friday April 04, 2003 at 7:24 pm
JP,
Kosovo is a dead issue in Australia. Kosovo now is well on the way to "democracy" and that's all there is to it. A closer look at it says that all is not well but the media are silent on it. Now that there are no Serbs left, democracy should follow easily. :-)
As for Dos doing what it likes regardless of the law, that's apparently ok with the foreign interests. Dos are "democrats" and they are doing what those interests want. It's the same old "sons of bitches" argument the US administrations have followed in numerous places throughout the world but at least "they're OUR sons of bitches". Milosevic wasn't and he has to pay the price.
Same goes for anyone else. Look what a free ride Pinochet got, and he was a bit worse than Milosevic except the corporate media and its masters didn't blow it up because it suited them to keep him in power and whitewash their support. Even now when everything is more or less exposed, he's still being protected by UK and USA.
That's why Dos can now do whatever it likes and get away with it. And the same goes for a host of Arab states which are a lot less democratic than Iraq.
The administrations lie to the people so that their "sponsors" can achieve their own, not the people's, objectives. And the people fall for it and are ready to die for the bullshit spewed forth by people like G. W. BU(ll)SH(it).
Get the message JP, the MAJORITY of USA people don't vote because it doesn't matter who is in power, it makes little difference to them. They have been effectively disenfranchised by both parties. Same goes for YU, and that tells you something is seriously wrong in YU just as in the USA and some of the other alleged democracies. Money rules and that's that.
David
Australia - Friday April 04, 2003 at 8:04 pm
Majority rule means that one half + one imposses its will on the other half of the less than 50% of the electorate voting every four years in the first tuesday of November. That is why people do not vote. The rich rules over the poor.
But don't despair if you like America you should invest on America:
Invest on America, buy a Congressman
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La - Saturday April 05, 2003 at 1:37 am
DavidThere's a mountain of difference between Clinton and W. Also between one time Senate leader Daschle and now Republican leader Frist, and that what was, is not that what is.
20% voting is better than none. You David, can't seem to relate to the 'flyover' American psyche. To understand it you need a trace of optimism . Invest in America, we think the economy is going to explode!
J P
USA.Wis - Saturday April 05, 2003 at 1:48 am
Pera BoraWW4 ? Woolsey from CIA is saying in your link that they have plenty of democracy to bring to the Middle East, including Egypt and Saudi Arabia.
Blair says none of the Middle East countries have anything to fear by way of attack and it's ridiculous to suggest otherwise.
So who's lying? Both, would you believe!
David
Australia - Saturday April 05, 2003 at 1:57 am
JP
Might be a bit risky investing in America at the moment. If 20 guys can wreck its economy so readily, I'd hate to see what 200 could do. What's a flyover psyche, BTW? Is it something to do with B52s, B1s, F18s, etc?
Gogol
Investing in congressmen and senators and politicians in general is the safest of investments. Once bought, they stay bought! The buyers might change, but they always stay bought. It's a great, steady, predictable and consistent investment climate.
David
Australia - Saturday April 05, 2003 at 2:52 am
Arandjel,What would be the point for the SPS, JUL or SRS to kill Djindjic? What would be the point of killing a puppet and leaving the hand that controls the puppet intact?
Don't you think that this whole series of events since the 12th of March has been moving rather quickly ... almost as if it were planned in advance?
Amazingly it turns out that the only political figures who have been arrested for so-called "ties to organized crime" are from opposition. Apparently everybody in the DOS is as pure as the driven snow. Eventhough everybody knows and Velimir Ilic even admitted that the DOS "could not have carried out the overthrow on October 5, 2000 with academics, university professors and eminent public and cultural workers, but rather with people with a murky past and behaviour."
The DOS itself could not have come to power without the help it received from organized crime. Zoran Djindjic himself was friends with Stanko Subotic Cane of all people and even went flying in his private jet.
They say that Legija killed Djindjic. What possible influence could the SPS, SRS or JUL have had over Legija? Legija lead the operations to arrest Milosevic and Legija helped Djindjic on October 5th.
This is also interesting, it is a press release from the SPO saying that Djindjic had made some sort of public statement saying that Legija was his friend does anybody know about that statement?
GAVRILOVIC HASN'T BEEN KILLED
Friday, 31 August 2001
According to the statement of Zoran Djindjic, DOS Presidency has determined that there is no connection between the Serbian Government with criminals and Mafia.
This means that the DOS Presidency found unture Djindjic's public statements that Legija is his friend, that he has been a longtime acquaintance of Stanko Subotic, whose plane he used to go to the first official visit to Moscow recently and that he is not a lofty politician but a man who keept is touch with the bosses of Mafia groups.
What the Serbian premier admits and what everyone in the country knows is now being denied by the ruling coalition's Politburo. DOS Presidency might as well soon conclude that Momir Gavrilovic has not been killed, that Legija, Stanisic, Mihalj Kertes never existed, that there is no such thing as Surcin, that Vladimir Jovanovic a.k.a. Japanac does not exist, although he used to be arrested because of his participation in an attempted assassination of SPO president last year in Budva. DOS Presidency will establish that "Japanac" does not have an official card of the Serbian Ministry of Interior, which he arrogantly flashed this summer to the Montenegrin police.
In spite of these and meny other facts, Vojislav Kostunica and his party, who verbally fight against criminalized Government of Serbia, have decided to support that Government. Hence, they are against crimes and Mafia, but they are also for the support to crimes and Mafia.
http://www.spo.org.yu/archives/200108.htm#20010831_1
Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States - Saturday April 05, 2003 at 3:02 am
The point I was making in my last post if it wasn't perfectly clear is this.The DOS has clearly been involved with criminals and is tied to the mafia itself, so why is it that no high officials of the DOS have been caught in the dragnet of this so-called "crusade against organized crime"?
The answer is that this isn't a crusade against crime at all. This is a blatant power grab that is using a "crackdown on crime" as its pretext.
They can bribe any criminal off the street to say that they were tied (or not tied) to anybody.
Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States - Saturday April 05, 2003 at 3:27 am
It seems the authorities in Belgrade are accelerating the privatisation and sale of YU factories while there is a ban on workers or union meetings. Maybe they don't need to ask anyone anything anymore! I wonder how many of them they can "privatise" before the Martial Law ends and the fait accompli is in place?
David
Australia - Saturday April 05, 2003 at 7:49 am
David, you said:-"... CIA ... have plenty of democracy to bring to the Middle East, including Egypt and Saudi Arabia.
Blair says none of the Middle East countries have anything to fear by way of attack and it's ridiculous to suggest otherwise."
I suggest that the only way to know whether Bush Admin. or the Blair Govt. is telling the truth is when they state diametrically opposite views on a single logical issue.
In fact these days, that's probably the only time one of them is telling the truth. Question is - which one? Bush Admin this time, methinks. Someone should keep score.
Dennis Revell
USA - Saturday April 05, 2003 at 9:53 am
DavidIt's what we call 'flyover country', where the Americans live, between the all the Democratic 'kooks' on the east coast and the just plain 'kooks' on the 'left' coast.
It's the part of the country that 'wrestled' the presidency away from the Democrats. W is from 'flyover' America.
J P
USA.Wis - Saturday April 05, 2003 at 10:01 am
DRHow about 'suggesting' that Lybia's Kadaffi and his 'cute' body guards take a long vacation.
It bugs me that, after placing a radio bomb in an American airliner, he's still spouting off.
J P
USA.Wis - Saturday April 05, 2003 at 11:32 am
Take a look at the following Messrs May and Ashdown. Then tell me about Kosovo, the concept of proportionality and your ICTY show. Mr May, you might consider that Mr Ashdown was a commando and is well aware of what his allies' and his own army's policies are. That makes him ONE BIG LIAR at the ICTY. Are you going to commence perjury charges against Mr Ashdown, Mr May?
Oh, and BTW, you might just note the little tit bit about all the refugees. If the Allies' forces don't have to answer for this show, why are you forcing Milosevic to answer for the same in Kosovo? That is why your little show is such an exercise in hypocrisy, or is it just a racist thing with you where the British and the Americans can never do wrong? How about if you deduct the similar issues out of the prosecution's case and cut their time down to just specific cases of Milosevic's own responsibility. You might just finish the case by next week rather than next century.
"A U.S. Marine commander said on Saturday American troops would use overwhelming force to crush any resistance if ordered to storm Baghdad and that the battle would cost many civilian lives."
"We're not going to tip-toe into the city, it will be a forceful knock-out punch every time we go in," said U.S. Marine Captain Matt Watt, commander of Lima Company, a unit of mechanized infantry trained in urban warfare."
"We have to go in forcefully, and when we go in forcefully it just creates a lot of collateral damage."
"Watt said Marines would do their best to avoid killing Iraqis who were not involved in the fighting, but said such a fight for the city would inevitably result in a large number of civilian deaths."
"It's very difficult for us to know who are the soldiers and who are the actual civilians, if we are to take the enemy out it may unfortunately be at the cost of a lot of civilian lives, unintentionally."
"Watt said that if Iraqi soldiers fired from a building, Marines would respond with artillery and air attacks -- even if there were civilians still inside the structure."
"If we start taking a lot of fire, we will simply level the building area, we'll destroy it with indirect fire and air and tanks. Then we'll go in with ground forces. That's when you get civilians who choose not to leave, and they're going to die in the process."
"There's a lot of them (refugees) moving around, that's going to be a bigger problem as we get closer to the city," he said, adding that Iraqi forces who deliberately mingled with civilians would be to blame for their deaths."
http://www.reuters.co.uk/newsArticle.jhtml?type=focusIraqNews&storyID=2513340
David
Australia - Saturday April 05, 2003 at 11:42 am
Oh, and BTW, Mr May, please note that Milosevic didn't go half way across the world into somebody else's house to protect his country and people from terrorism!
David
Australia - Saturday April 05, 2003 at 1:49 pm
Mr. Jovanovic I was trying to find the article where the Saudi debt was discussed, however, at present I have not been able to locate it. Nevertheless, if my memory serves me right here is some of the things discussed. There are some 4000 princes in Saudi Arabia who divide the budget and a very small portion reaches the average citizen who dares not complain. Even though, per capita income is one of the highest in the world the question one must ask how is that income divided and what happens to it. The princes invest much of their share of the oil revenue in the West. Most of what Saudis use, producer goods and consumer goods are purchased in the West or Japan from western subsidiaries. The purchases are not cash and carry but on credit. Is it any surprise that average male female literacy rate in Saudi Arabia is about 30%. It is evident that the huge GNI (200 billion) is not spent on social good but on King Farouk type of lifestyle (women, palaces, Monte Carlo, falconery and safe investments in America) and on military equipment to keep control of the population.In the last thirty years the Saudis have been the main players ((Financiers of military activity, terrorism and religious revival) in the Muslim world particularly in Afghanistan, Somalia, and the Middle East. All this costs money.
This nice neat package was in place to control oil and bring down the Soviets. They have achieved the Soviet demise but the oil is not yet secure. Condolice Rice former Chevron executive is in place to secure Central Asian oil for her former bosses. The route to the Gulf must be secured. Russian route for the pipeline is not practical as the Russians can call the shots and America will not be capable of bullying them in the same way they bully the smaller states.
The Bush connection to the Taliban and bin Laden is well documented. USA who has 5% of the world’s population uses 40% of the oil supplies. Bush oil interests are even as we speak tied to the bin Laden family. The Taliban interests were championed by CIA connections, the niece of the former head of the CIA Richard Helms. The financing of the Taliban and bin Laden was done through banks (Bank of Commerce and Credit International) established by Bush Sr. and his policy advisors and business partners. These banks no longer exist but many smaller branches, remnants of the originals, still launder money for world terrorism. The sponsorship of the Taliban, Mullah Omar, bin Laden and the Sep. 11th terrorists are the creation of Bush Sr’s oil, financial and military ties with the terrorists. Bush Sr. lost the election but he had saved two kingdoms Kuwait and the Saudis. Saudis did not forget this at the time when White House needed help with Harken Oil. The old Saudi partners came with suitcases of money.
Demands to investigate these connections have been quashed by yours truly Bush Junior. Chaney has asked Senator Daschle not to investigate the intelligence failure. Chaney and Bush Jr. know that the trail of Sep 11th leads directly to Bush Sr. and Saudi Arabian princes. Former head of the FBI anti terrorism division John O’Neill killed in the WTC bombing has told Jean Charles Brisard that all the answers to bin Laden, terrorism and oil connections can be found in Bush Sr’s dealings with Saudi Arabia. Bush Jr. does not want the answers because his father might wind up in Guantanamo. In this case the sins of the father and the guilty knowledge of the son are one and the same
Walter Trkla
Kamloops BC
Canada - Saturday April 05, 2003 at 2:21 pm
Thanks to the swift and effective protest of the concerned the new Inquisition in Serbia will not be created. The government is now saying that it never intended to form the Inquisition. People have "misunderstood" them. This is an important victory for the people that understood them properly and cared to protest.
Pera Bora
Ottawa
Canada - Saturday April 05, 2003 at 8:39 pm
Mr. Trkla,Thank you for the post. I mostly agree with you that oil is behind most of the current American policy. We, in America, can not allow to have a shortage of that substance as it is the life blood of our economy.
I am a particle physicist, ( perhaps more popular label would be Nuclear physicist), and as such fully understand the energy demands the world has on this comodity-oil. We are the largest consumer of this limited resource. The emerging economies of China, India and not to mention Japan, Germany etc. all badly need the same thing in ever so larger quantities.
The country who controls the oil is effectively the ruler of the world.
I do not see any immediate replacement for this commodity. The only answer would be Nuclear energy and by some application of electrolysis the hydrogen as a transportable fuel. One can not imagine sufficiently small nuclear reactors to fuel planes or cars. Fusion is not so close and in many ways it is similar to Uranium fuel. However, 50 years from now, when we deplete the oil resources Uranium will be the next material in demand. Interestingly enough, Russia has abundance of both. As to the debt which Saudi have incurred, I should not be surprised. When a small country like Yugoslavia had a debt of 20 billion, an oil rich country like Saudi Arabia can easily incur such a debt only eight time larger. What of these latest jet purchases, Saudi have bought and so badly need for their “defense”!
D. Jovanovic
USA - Saturday April 05, 2003 at 9:04 pm
Lawyers (Nikola Djogunovic, Slobodan Milivojevic and Miodrag Gligorijevic) defending Zemun clan's leaders have been arrested!What a mistake to arrest people one by one! They should change Serbia into prison, and then free them one by one after having been checked. I am not joking! If it is true that the government shows what the people who elected it are like then Serbs ARE a very dangerous nation.
No One
Prisonia - Saturday April 05, 2003 at 9:29 pm
I have to share one more idea of mine with you. People outside Prisonia should protest against too many Prisonians being at large. People protesting should shout: ARREST THEM ALL, ARREST THEM ALL. OK, they don't have to shout it, a better idea might be for them to sing it. Yesssss, I love myself.
No. One
Prisonia - Saturday April 05, 2003 at 9:53 pm
More secret trials in the world's greatest democracies, ala ICTY:Hello! Where's the coffee?
David
Australia - Saturday April 05, 2003 at 10:11 pm
It seems this democracy business is getting more contagious by the day!Democracy is Contagious:
David
Australia - Saturday April 05, 2003 at 10:27 pm
Dennis, your open letter to Tony Blur neatly hits the nail with each sentence. Since you've invited suggestions: when talking about war crimes, perhaps you could consider including a warning that the initial war crimes of the 'coalition' have been already collected by Switzerland, and that the new names and information are being added on an hourly basis. The Swiss Foreign Minister, Ms Micheline Calmy Rey gave the interview to the Frankfurter Algemeine Zeitung on 31 March, stating that 13 days after the launch of U.S.-led invasion of Iraq, the Swiss Foreign Ministry has decided to document U.S.-British war crimes against Iraqi civilians on a separate section within its website. I stumbled upon this piece of info at http://www.islamonline.net/English/News/2003-04/01/article06.shtml ('Switzerland Documents US-British War Crimes in Iraq', 1 April).Arandjel, you would be surprised to know that we agree on many more things than just one. You have the right gut feeling about things. My only problem with your writing here is your painful inconsistency, which probably comes from being overly sensitive. Please, stay focused and reasonable and you'll be able to understand more.
Here are 2 more sites for you that publish the Milosevic 'trial' reports (both are in Serbian only, unfortunately): http://www.novosti.co.yu and then go down to the right to 'Dosije'; the second is http://www.freeserbia.org and then go to 'ostale vesti' at the top. Both sites provide short reports that are far less biased than the CIJ or IWPR; FreeSerbia almost exclusively describing the examination-in-chief, with only few remarks on the cross-examination; NOVOSTI giving mostly anecdotal, but informative description of both. You're right, the only real insight comes from reading the transcripts, but the ultimate veracity comes from watching the trial, although it may seem boring. Let me inform you: the ICTY makes the proceedings boring on purpose, by inflating the number of insignificant witnesses, unrelated documents and unimportant tapes and by jumping from one issue to another without ever probing to the core. That's called 'fog of war', and believe me, the ICTY is currently waging a war by other means, the war against the ex-YU that is not over yet.
Re DAN Daily, this is the Montenegrin paper whose distribution has been banned here under the current state of emergency rules. It's really tabloid-like, gossipy coverage, but after discarding 50% as totally unbelievable and further 20% as exaggerated, the chilling 30% of what they write is most probably accurate. This was enough to earn them the banning and this is enough to warn any thinking citizen against the 'official version'. For example, when they write about 2 Zemun gang bosses being killed by the police elsewhere and not while 'resisting arrest', it's enough to take a look at the short TV footage they showed of the alleged killing site: both corpses were decently placed face down on the ground, hugging a rifle each - too choreographed a scene to be realistic. And when they write about savage torturing of those arrested (Franki Simatovic allegedly already dead, Jovica Stanisic barely alive, Ceca Raznatovic with broken jaw and teeth knocked out), one can only remember the previous cases of the 'deaths in the presence of authorities' of few months ago: Tapi Malesevic, the famous painter brought in for the 'informative questioning' re alleged connections with people who allegedly killed a police chief, suddenly dying from heart attack while in custody (and the man never suffered any heart condition); the same goes for a young drug-trafficking suspect and another one arrested for the car theft. Awfully lot feeble-hearted people dying while 'questioned', don't you think? And about the 'fool Mihajlovic' not being able to plan anything or being involved in murders? Well, don't forget he managed to politically survive through several 'regimes', all the while developing highly successful various businesses which by definition had to be at least blessed by the criminal & political circles (this is a conditio sine qua non for any business in the recent Balkan history), it does not seem reasonable to discard him as too foolish. Don't forget that Djindjic has publicly earmarked him for sacking recently, over his incompetence in so many unsolved murders.
Another proof that our 'rulers' went too far: the ever-supportive IWPR has a commentary titled 'Dark Side of Serbian Revolution' in which they are actually accusing the ruling group of abusing the state of emergency to 'settle old personal scores'. The article condemns the intentions of setting a special commission for media, hints about the connections 'between current officials and the mafia' and lists the most obnoxious examples of media stifling and probable rigging of killings while resisting arrest. The article goes so far as to state that 'those in government… are using the state of emergency to strengthen their positions and business interests', eager to 'avoid taking responsibility for what has happened in Serbia during the last two years.' Wow! Who needs DAN Daily when we have IWPR. I believe the Devil has put all joking aside when even a staunch supporter such as IWPR has turned its back on our poor 'leaders'. Better regroup and about-face, guys, and quickly.
Vera Martinovic
Belgrade
Yugoslavia - Saturday April 05, 2003 at 11:03 pm
ARREST THEM ALL
BREAK THEM SKIN
BREAK THEM BONES
BREAK THE LAWS
DO IT FOR THE CAUSE
BREAK THEM JAWS
BREAK THEM BACKS
BREAK THE RULES
THEY ARE FOR THE FOOLS
BREAK THEM LEGS
BREAK THEM ARMS
ARREST THEM ALL
No One
Prisonia - Sunday April 06, 2003 at 8:26 am
Blair the Magnificent“Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.” Biblical quotation.
Most of you will remember reports in 1994 of the horrific gang rape of a young Danish tour guide, Louise Jensen, in Cyprus by three British soldiers who then beat her to death with a spade. Now we have more allegations of rapes by British soldiers, so-called peacekeepers, this time in Kenya:
“For officers from the Special Investigation Branch of the RMP are travelling to Kenya tomorrow to interview four women who allege they were raped in incidents in 1983, 1992, 1998 and 1999 … They will be assisted by British solicitor, Martyn Day, who is representing the alleged victims.
They are among more than 200 women who claim they were brutally sexually assaulted by British soldiers in incidents which date back to the 1970’s, the most recent occurring in 2000.
Some of the allegations are of gang rape and at least six resulted in the birth of a mixed race child.” By Rosie Waterhouse, Daily Telegraph, 5 April 2003.
Blair acts out his ‘moral outrage’ on the word stage with a show of impassioned insincerity and moralistic fervour which is his trademark: While leading the slaughter and maiming tens of thousands of innocents in Iraq, especially with cluster bomblets, to add to the thousands in Serbia. He would do well to pause in his diatribe on the evils of Serbs and Iraqis for their rapacious and murderous ways and dwell upon the mote in his own eye.
“Police, Army and loyalists ‘colluded in policy of murder’” Sunday Telegraph, 30 March 2003.
Peter Taylor
Herts/UK - Sunday April 06, 2003 at 10:42 am
On this date, 6 of April 1941, Germans bombed Belgrade. It was to teach Serbs a lesson in “obedience”. Just a week before Yugoslavia rejected the treaty to let German troops in to travel to Greece and help Musolini’s forces in their fight with the Greeks. (Zagreb was not bombed)Approximately at the same date Belgrade was bombed by Americans in 1999 to teach Serbs a lesson. Serbs were fighting the insurgent terrorists in Kosovo. I do not count the yet another American bombing of Belgrade in 1944. At that time the Germans were occupying Belgrad. It was good excuse.
In the first bombing 12,000 people were left dead, in the second, 1944 American bombing about 18,000 people died and in the third “precision” bombing only about 600.
However it appears bombing is NOT a good way to teach Serbs a lesson. Serbs remain the same! I guess being 500 years under Turks and not giving in has made them what they are.
D. Jovanovic
USA - Sunday April 06, 2003 at 10:43 am
My Perspectives:During the German occupation of Serbia in 1941-44 there was a glossy weekly journal published by Germans called “Signal”. I well remember the pages of this weekly describing with the glee how that past week some 2000 Soviets were killed on the Eastern front.
I could not predict that sixty years later I will be reading in New York Times and on the web the similar news reports of some 2000 enemy ( Iraqi) killed in the battle. Temporas mutandum but the blood thirstiness of human kind does not!
D. Jovanovic
USA - Sunday April 06, 2003 at 7:29 pm
When I think of WWII my own personal experience floods back as if it was yesterday. The intense heat of our house as it burned down, the last time I saw my father, hiding in a clump of trees as the stuka dove with its engine screaming, the kind of scream only made by a stuka as it dropped its deadly cargo on Bileca, spent cartridges everywhere and DDT powder dumped on me are personal memories of a three year old.In a less personal way I see war as that little boy in Warsaw with his hands in the air, the little girl in Vietnam running down the road screaming as napalm burned her flesh, Emina and Bosko dead in a street in Sarajevo and today the Iraqi family, father, mother several children coming out of their modest home, hands in the air, fear in their eyes, mother in tears and an American soldiers guns pointing barking orders for them to get on their knees. The picture of that family in their yard, THEIR GODAMN YARD, will be American legacy Rumsfeld you fascist bastard.
Walter Trkla
Kamloops BC
Canada - Sunday April 06, 2003 at 7:53 pm
A little further in time
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La - Sunday April 06, 2003 at 10:17 pm
D. JovanovicInteresting that you would bring up Signal for just the other day I was describing to my wife how the establishment war reporting is similar to the Signal style
Vera, et. al.
for some answers how we operate in foreign lands, review the Diem assasination in Vietnam. It will prove illuminating vis a vie Djindic as DOS.
Essentially, we felt Diem could no longer deliver, so we quietly let it be known that Diem needed to go. When a few weeks later some locals approached us asking what we would think if Diem were killed, we 'delicately' gave our assent.
AP V
NY
NY - Sunday April 06, 2003 at 10:42 pm
'the US said that between 2,000 and 3,000 Iraqis had been killed in the three-hour incursion into the city on Saturday, by the 3rd Infantry Division and two squadrons of tanks.'The U.S. Government kills as many as 3,000 people in 3 hours. Admitting infront of the world that they are killing people at a rate of upto 1,000 people per hour.
I would bet that the U.S. Government killed more Iraqis in that 3 hours than all of the Albanians killed by Serbs for the entire 2 years of the Kosovo war.
And they have the nerve accuse Serbia of genocide in Kosovo...
Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States