 MILOSEVIC TRIAL DISCUSSION ARCHIVE |
| JURIST >> LEGAL NEWS - WORLD LAW >> Discussion >> Milosevic Trial Discussion Archive |
—————————————————————————————
Former Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic is on trial for war crimes in the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia at The Hague. This marks the first time a head of state has been personally prosecuted before an international criminal court.
Is Slobodan Milosevic getting a fair trial?
————————————————————————————
NOTICE: Comments posted to this discussion board are solely the responsibility of individual posters, and not of JURIST, its owner, operators, host or staff. JURIST reserves the right to block or remove posts that are in violation of law or that advocate illegal acts, that are obscene, disruptive, defamatory, threatening, harassing or abusive, that are in breach of intellectual property rights, rights of publicity or rights of privacy, that are advertisements or solicitations, or that are not related to the topic being discussed.
————————————————————————————
- discussion archive
- Monday April 07, 2003 at 3:01 am
For me the most enduring image of this Iraq war is the photo of an Iraqi man surrounded by six coffins of various members of his family blown up as collateral damage, and asking " Over which coffin should I weep ?"
Seshadri Raghavan
India - Monday April 07, 2003 at 2:34 pm
I have no other sources of information about what is going on in Serbia other than what I read on the web. And I read B92 and Politika, Serbiana and Glas Javnosti.What I read on B92 is hard for me to believe. They claim that Kostunica, Bosnian Serbian Army and Red Berets are all involved jointly in Djindjic assassination. I just can not believe that. On one hand the assassin has confessed and claims that Legija gave him the instruction that there should be more assassinations and in that confusion for Red berets to take the power. Now how likely is that Kostunica would be involved in something like that?
Is Serbia heading into dark ages? Such fabrication and conspiracies were not promulgated even during the Tito’s regime.
Somebody please enlighten me!
D. Jovanovic
USA - Monday April 07, 2003 at 5:51 pm
Pierre-Richard Prosper, U.S. ambassador for war crime issues, said possible punishments for those convicted range from incarceration to the death penalty.
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La - Monday April 07, 2003 at 8:15 pm
Andy W. methinks you got it wrongI would bet that the U.S. Government killed more Iraqis in that 3 hours than all of the Albanians killed by the KLA for the entire 2 years of the Kosovo war
AP V
NY
NY - Monday April 07, 2003 at 9:45 pm
Mr. Jovanovic I share the same concerns. It looks as if the new government in Serbia is trying to blame a group on unrelated people for the killing of Mr. Djindjic. Putting Mr. Kostunica and Mr. Milosevic in the same "criminal category" is ridiculous and baseless. The only common link that they have is that they are political opponents of the new government. I now think that they both have nothing to do with this killing. I am thinking that the new government and the West have all the reasons for it and that they did it as a joined criminal enterprise.
Have you noticed that today two journalists of the journal DAN were arrested. They have published two articles. One article is giving different version of the killing of Mr. Djindjic from the official one. The other article is accusing, now the second man in the Democratic Party (Mr. Cedomir Jovanovic), of being a drug edict. These two journalists are accused of having ties with the Zemun Clan and that they have conspired with it. Their alleged task and crime was to publish the false information in the press on the assassination of Mr. Djindjic with a goal to confuse the investigators. Have you ever heard in your life that journalists can confuse the police investigators? Please note that they are not accused of leaking confidential and vital information on the investigation.
Mr. Cedomir Jovanovic is spreading ridiculous hints about connections of Mr. Kostunica with the Zemun Clan and friendship with Mr. Pavkovic. He was instrumental in justifying ban from the Parliament of the members of parliament from the Democratic Party of Serbia.
Have you noticed that after assassination of Mr. Djindjic the West started treating Serbia a little bit better. One of examples is the fast track acceptance of Serbia and Montenegro in the Council of Europe. I taught that they are afraid of the alleged war criminals, since they taught that the alleged war criminals have organized assassination of Mr. Djindjic. So in order to make life easier for the ruling politicians in Serbia they decided to minimize pressure on Serbia. Now I think that the ruling part of DOS plus the leadership of Montenegro had an arrangement with the West. Mr. Djindjic will be killed, all the alleged war criminals will be delivered to The Hague with out any questions asked. All the Serbian national interest will be trashed. All the information that Serbia had on Iraq's military will be delivered to Mr. Powel. I had a lot of disagreements with what Mr. Djindjic did but now it looks like he had at least some national pride in him. He became the most powerful man in the land and the main obstacle to the absolute enforcement of the USA policies in Serbia. To my positive surprise Mr. Djindjic quite boldly and recently disagreed with USA policies in Kosovo. This just contributes to my speculation.
The idea is that the new rulers of Serbia, a bunch of political and personal nobodies, is trying to ensure to stay in power (close to money) for the long time. There is an assessment that their plan of privatization of the industry in Serbia is criminal in nature and implementation. Their idea is that they will be loved and supported by USA as an award for their betrayal.. The USA government will turn a blind eye. They even do not have to think or plan. Everything is going to be done in Washington. Their only task is to somehow tie all their opponents with the Mr. Dindjic's assassination and send them to jail for ever or execute them as soon as possible.
I have already said in one of my previous posts that I have heard personally form one of the leaders of Otpor that the plan was to assassinate most of the leading political opponents, with the focus on ex-communist, as a part of the 5th October Revolution. He blamed Mr. Kostunica for not allowing for this plan to go true. I do not have a reason not to trust this Otpor leader. He was awarded a position of a Diplomat for his role in the 5th October Revolution.
This is bold speculation for now. Time will tell. I am very sad about this development. I was looking at DOS as a bunch of a brave new democrats that will guaranty Serbia's fast pace in the democratic future and recovery. Boy, how naive I was.
Pera Bora
Ottawa
Canada - Monday April 07, 2003 at 10:02 pm
Smoking gun" WMD site in Iraq turns out to contain pesticide 08.04.2003 [03:26]
http://www.iraqwar.ru/iraq-read_article.php?articleId=2167&lang=en
Pera Bora
Ottawa
Canada - Monday April 07, 2003 at 10:07 pm
Those who trample human rights in Israel are having a field day: Look at the behavior of theAmericans in Iraq, they say. Every time troops open fire at a checkpoint, every killing of a civilian, every picture of siege and plight, leads to merriment here. The United States, the cradle of democracy, the leader of the free world, is behaving like us.
Read more at:
http://www.iraqwar.ru/iraq-read_article.php?articleId=2171&lang=en
Pera Bora
Ottawa
Canada - Tuesday April 08, 2003 at 1:29 am
AP V,In my estimation Serb bullets probably killed about 2,000 people during the Kosovo war. That being said, I believe that the VAST (over 90%) majority of those 2,000 people were members of the terrorist KLA.
Just look at the Milosevic "indictment" and the schedules of "atrocities" at the end of the Kosovo indictment. You can see that the vast majority of people listed are of fighting age (males age 13 - 70 and females age 15 - 50).
If you think that 15 and 16 year old girls weren't terrorists in the KLA take a look at the example of Elinda Muriqi, a 16-year-old girl from the United States who told CNN that she had joined the KLA "to shoot some Serbs."
http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/europe/9904/17/kosovo.kla/
I don't know what sort of parent lets their 16 year-old daughter run-away and join a terrorist group, but it apparently happens in some places, and it says as much about the group that accepts her as it does about her parents.
I also can't understand what sort of people shoot at the police and then hide behind their own children so that the police can't retaliate.
http://www.balkanpeace.org/cib/kam/kams/kams12.shtml
Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States - Tuesday April 08, 2003 at 1:48 am
I would also like to point something out. Just because the names listed in the indictment are mostly people of fighting age, specifically men of fighting age that dosen't mean that I think the VJ or the MUP killed all of them. I think that a lot of names on the indictment are of people who were actually killed by the KLA.
Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States - Tuesday April 08, 2003 at 10:16 am
Mr. Pera Bora,Thank you for your comments. But I still do not understand the behavior of the people presently in power in Serbia. If they are former communists I would perhaps understand, but they are not.
I understand the outrage at the mafia. But to ascribe the mafia support of Kostunica seems most unlikely to me. He lives in a normal apartment in Belgrade, does not seem to acquire any wealth, I am told, and what would be his motivation to support mafia or vice versa?
D. Jovanovic
USA - Tuesday April 08, 2003 at 12:14 pm
D. Jovanovic,I think that "3/12" is to the government of Serbia what 9/11 is to the Government of the United States. And the Zemun gang is to Serbia what Al-Qaeda is to the United States.
All the government of Serbia has to do is "link" their political opposition to Zemun and they can oppress them with impunity. At this point all of the opposition parties have been accused of having links to Zemun the SPS, JUL, SSJ, and SRS have all been accused outright and it has been implied that the DSS has links as well.
Linking somebody to a criminal group isn't hard. All that has to be done is to bribe or blackmail a known criminal into saying that there was a link between them and the person targeted for political persecution.
Seeing the way that the Government of Serbia is going around arresting the lawyers of the accused criminals, and the way they are purging the judiciary, it is hard to believe that anybody can get a fair trial in Serbia these days.
Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States - Tuesday April 08, 2003 at 1:29 pm
I have stated before we have to look at who benefits from this assassination? The assassination was the smoking gun as Andy states above. It justifies rule by decree. Rule by decree means you send your countrymen to The Hague and anyone that questions that winds up with his teeth down his or her throat. Silencing political opposition by terrorism so that in the next round of election they will be in disarray insures Markovic’s election.This action also provides service to the bosses in NATO. Eliminate Milosevic’s support and the guilty verdict will be achieved.
US military said that they don’t target journalists. It is interesting that hey were able to hit the room of the Il Gezirha reporter in Baghdad. Freelance reporter on CBC May Walsh stated that she never saw any guns or militia in the Il Rashid hotel. She also stated that she was in the parking lot of the hotel when the room was hit and at no time did she see or hear gunfire from the rooms in the hotel. CNN of course had their version, which was that the tank was responding to gunshots from the hotel. The seed is planted that killing the reporters was self-defence.
Ms. Walsh also stated that the restaurant that was hit by several bombs was open every day for business. Reporters ate at this restaurant and there were several homes close by. Ms. Walsh reported that three homes were demolished and she witnessed bodies of women and children in the rubble of these homes. She also stated that fathers and other male family members were looking for survivors. How does one justify hitting a restaurant and homes with this kind of weapons and than jailing someone else like Milosevic for not using proportional force?????
Walter Trkla
Kamloops BC
Canada - Tuesday April 08, 2003 at 2:44 pm
Thank you gentlemen,For your response. I sort of hoped and perhaps believed that the Serbs, and I mean all Serbs, after being so malined and attacked have taken pride in their honesty and tradition.
Now I am slightly ashamed.
D. Jovanovic
USA - Tuesday April 08, 2003 at 2:48 pm
Sorry, in my haste I mis-spelled maligned!
D. Jovanovic
USA - Tuesday April 08, 2003 at 7:07 pm
The enemy is not Serbia, Bielaruss, Ukraine, Slovakia, Iraq, Afgahnistan, Palestine, Syria, Iran, North Korea, Indonesia, The Philippines, Malasia, Timor, Colombia, Venezuela, Brazil, Argentina, Bolivia, Ecuador, Cuba, Lybia, Sudan, Somalia, Angola, Sierra Leone, Zimbawe, the nemy of the peoples of the World is for everyone to see.
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La - Tuesday April 08, 2003 at 10:33 pm
All links from http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/issue_milosevic.htm report:Headline functionality has been disabled. Please contact the administrator of this website to report this fault.
Someone might wish to fix this.
Ian Davis
Waterloo
Canada - Tuesday April 08, 2003 at 11:41 pm
The Hague Inquisition actually accused the editor of the newspaper DAN and is asking for the authorities in Belgrade to extradite him!3 of their correspondents were arrested in Serbia (Belgrade, Novi Sad, Kragujevac), the jist being in Montenegro, 'safe'...
An "accidental" fire in their printshop caused 50,000 euros in damage.
One of their journalists, Rajka Raicevic, was senteced to 3 months in jail by a court in Montenegro.
Their website at
http://www.dan.cg.yu has been a target of Serb state hackers who initially added bogus stories (to make the paper look bad) and then blocked the whole site altogether.All this, aside from the official ban in Serbia and fines brought against their distributors in Serbia.
Such is the punishment for speaking the truth. I remember coordinated state-media anti-DAN campaigns in Serbia before but that was nothing compared to this, now! I doubt they would be giving them such a harsh time if they were TRULLY talking complete gibberish as they stand accused of by the Belgrade undemocratic régime.
Igor Jaramaz
Canada - Wednesday April 09, 2003 at 12:07 am
On Monday and Tuesday TV B92 resumed the 'trial' transmissions, but it was an exercise in futility from the Prosecution's side. They started to bring forth an array of code-named witnesses, all talking about the beginning of the civil war in Bosnia & Herzegovina, and namely about one municipality at its northeastern border, Bijeljina. The problem was, of course, the anonymity of those men. One would expect that, testifying like this, they would have terrible, important secrets to reveal and therefore they feared their lives would be endangered by doing so. Nothing could be more farther from the truth.B-1003, an ex-policeman with his image electronically blurred, apparently a Muslim (but that was hardly relevant here; it was as irrelevant as his whole testimony) was not even present in the town when the one-day armed hostilities between local Muslims and Serbs in Bijeljina broke out at the beginning of April 1992 (he said himself that he had seen the events on TV!). Yet, he 'testified' about these events. I'm sure that anyone with press-clippings from these days could testify with more detail and accuracy. All that is well known: after the Muslim extremists harassed the local Serbs by shooting from behind their erected blockades, the Serbs asked Arkan's volunteers to help, they have prevailed, some sort of temporary order was established, the Muslims gave over some 500 rifles, surrounding villages agreed to remain calm, some Muslims even took part in Serbian military units… So, what was his 'testimony' about? I really cannot tell, since the large part of his testimony was once again in private session. Judging by what Milosevic said back in the open session, this mystery remained unsolved and he was equally puzzled by repeatedly getting the imprecise answers, asking the witness in exasperation 'what are you testifying about, when you don't know who fought where nor when?'. Milosevic even suggested to May that this constant resorting to privacy is just a ploy to artificially inflate the importance of this unimportant witness.
The next 2 witnesses were not only protected, but also video-linked. How's that for importance? One may think these guys must be at the very least heart-transplanting surgeons, unable to leave their patients for a few days to come to The Hague. Or, maybe they are simply criminals without passports, testifying from jail. Hell, even a State President, two Ambassadors and a future Bosnian Viceroy deigned to appear personally, but not these two. So, who were they and what was so important they had to tell? B-1486 seems to be from a Muslim village of Janja, whose inhabitants had 'no problems with the Serbs from surrounding villages' but who had to move out because of the 'psychological pressure' from the influx of the Serb refugees from other parts of Bosnia. The other protected witness via link promised to be more significant: B-104 was apparently an ex-member of a helicopter squadron of the YU Army and he started boldly by stating that they actually fought in Bosnia, so he got my attention. However, later on it turned out he himself never fought there, he only 'heard from people' that some of the Army did fight in some operations somewhere in Bosnia. This witness is to continue tomorrow and perhaps he will stop embarrassing himself and start telling something that he does know firsthand.
So, this is how the 'Bosnian stage' began to unfold, like a long but half-empty sausage, tackling the first of the announced 14 municipalities. When will somebody connect some of it with Milosevic, since this seems to be the Prosecution's case? This way, it could go on for years more. And, the CIJ people claim that even the Croatian stage 'has not been completed'. Who knows, maybe even some new Kosovo witnesses appear. Could be, with all that purging currently going on in Belgrade.
To D.Jovanovic: There's no way Kostunica could be involved in organizing murders. Why, I really believe he's incapable of organizing a birthday party. He's a prototype of a distracted professor, who always looks as if he has slept in the suit he's wearing. He lives in a modest downtown flat with 19 or 29 cats (I forgot which number he mentioned) and never wanted to move to the Presidential palace during his term in office. So, in addition to being distracted and slightly odd, he's obviously not interested in materialistic side of things. His only sin is being always sort of a highbrow intellectual and a bit scornful towards his ex-DOS comrades for their limited mental capacity. One can hardly blame him for that, but these guys remained offended. And, he became popular because of his personal honesty and goofiness, which is something these would-be politicians and true crooks perceive as a real threat. Thus the smearing campaign. But, they forget that all what they're smearing him with is simply unbelievable. Yet, they go on. I even read today that Kostunica will be brought in for questioning. Wrong move on their part, he'll probably become more popular because of that.
My personal problem with Kostunica is his limp stance when it comes to standing up for his convictions. I remember his fiery speech on trampled legality upon his return from abroad after Milosevic was kidnapped by Djindjic. He politically despised Milosevic for decades, yet he defended the Constitution. And the next day he delivered another TV speech, in which he actually gave an amen to what he so utterly opposed, without even resigning his post in protest, which was the least he could do. He offered a lame excuse how he will remain and try to solve problems, or some such thing. A meek man cannot remain with crooks and hope to change them. He finally distanced himself from the rest of this bunch of shady businessmen and drug addicts, so there's still hope for him.
Gogol, thanks for those heart-breaking photos of Guernica. I thought to be toughened enough with the horrors of the Iraq daily TV footage, but with these old stills I just helplessly cried.
Vera Martinovic
Belgrade
Yugoslavia - Wednesday April 09, 2003 at 12:27 am
VeraI spent 2 days w/ Kostunica while he was in NYC a while back. My impression is that he he deeply serious about teaching rule-of-law, but utterly incapable of building a political apparatus.
Goofy may be a bit harsh, but not too far off the mark
Andy
There isn't the slightest evidence that the Government killed 2,000 KLA. If one delves deeply into each and every incident where people were killed in KosMet 1998-1999, you'll find very few KLA KIA.
Don't forget when tallying KLA KIA to add the 175-275 KLA killed by Clinton's bombers.........
AP V
NY
NY - Wednesday April 09, 2003 at 12:52 am
AP V,I should try looking at my own website before I open my mouth next time:
http://www.slobodan-milosevic.org/kosovo-deaths.htm
I was just relying on my own faulty memory. I heard 2,000 KLA killed in action somewhere but you're right and I'm wrong about the actual numbers, the numers simply don't add up to 2,000.
My original point was that the Americans killed more Iraqis over a period of 3 hours than all of the (small handfull of) Albanians killed by Serbs over the course of the whole 2 years of the Kosovo war. And that it was hypocritical for the Americans of all people to accuse the Serbs of genocide in Kosovo.
Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States - Wednesday April 09, 2003 at 4:42 am
Vera,
So did I when I learned about them in my childhood. Many went to Moscow where they grew up and lived. I have to say about 3,000 Yugoslavs fought in the International Brigades, which Tito importantly participated in organising. Half of them gave their life fighting fascism in Spain. Today's events in Serbia ring many a bells in my mind, the whole World situation in fact.
Giogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La - Wednesday April 09, 2003 at 6:55 am
Spot the differenceSERBIA: Milosevic’s forces in 1998/99 defended their sovereign territory from insurgent KLA forces who were waging a terror campaign in parts of Serbia which they sought to ‘Albanianise’. These insurgent KLA forces included Islamic terrorists such as Mujahedin and had the covert support of al-Qaeda and the Western powers such as Britain, Germany and the USA.
To prevent Milosevic’s forces from securing parts of Serbia from KLA domination Blair, without UN sanction, egged on Clinton and other Nato powers to wage a 78 day bombing campaign killing and maiming thousands of innocent Serbs and Kosovars. Civilians were deliberately attacked notably at the RTS television complex and terror weapons such as the cluster bomb were indiscriminately deployed against them. It is instructive to note that the Spanish Air force refused orders to attack Nis with cluster bombs but Britain or the USA did. Thus power in the Kosovo province of Serbia has been transferred to the terrorist forces of the KLA. Consequently some third of a million of Serbia’s citizens have been displaced, their properties stolen and thousands killed and injured by this terror regime installed by Blair.
Two notable outcomes of the Blair/Clinton war is that a compliant or at least controlled government has been installed in Belgrade and the USA has established a major base in the region, Camp Bondsteel, from which it may exert control over corridors for the transfer of oil from the Caspian Sea basin.
Having failed to murder Milosevic by bombing his home Blair and his cronies bribed its compliant government in Belgrade to kidnap him. For using tanks and artillery to attack KLA positions taken up in towns and villages Milosevic was accused of using disproportionate force and thus crimes against humanity and is now on trial for his freedom for the rest of his life.
IRAQ: In the late 20th Century the Western powers, principally the USA, supported Saddam Hussein’s tyrannical hold over the Iraqi people and supplied him with arms including Weapons of Mass Destruction or their means of manufacture with which they encouraged him to attack Iran thus causing millions of casualties.
No longer compliant, having favoured France and Russia to dispense Iraqi oil, Saddam Hussein is now accused of having Weapons of Mass Destruction which endangered Britain and the USA though none have so far been found. On this unfounded pretext and without UN sanction Blair and Bush have launched a war on Iraq. Their strategy has been truly shocking and awful.
If Milosevic used disproportionate power in Serbia by attacking KLA positions in towns and villages with tanks and artillery how do we describe Blair and Bush’s indiscriminate use of cluster bombs and cluster shells launched into major towns and cities? In particular how do we describe the deliberate deployment of four two thousand pound bombs on a restaurant in a Baghdad residential area killing and injuring scores of Iraqi civilians - simply because they thought Saddam Hussein might be dining there? This is undoubtedly a major war crime - not to mention the “unintended” attacks upon markets killing and injuring some hundreds more.
If Rajac was a massacre then these events are horrific massacres.
Two notable outcomes of the Blair/Bush war is that the USA now controls Iraq and thus together with its hold over Kuwait and Saudi Arabia has domination over between two thirds and three quarters of the earth’s oil reserves.
Is this trial of Milosevic fair: Not unless Blair and the KLA Leaders also stand trial for their war crimes in Serbia at the ICTY.
Peter Taylor
Herts/UK - Wednesday April 09, 2003 at 9:51 am
I do not want my president to be this blood thirsty as a maniac:President Bush, in Belfast for a war summit with Tony Blair, said: “I don’t know whether he survived. The only thing I know is he’s losing power.” US and British officials are convinced that Saddam was in the building, although he is known for staying as short a time as possible in any one place.
The complex included al-Saa restaurant and flats. Intelligence chiefs had suspected the Iraqi leadership of using al-Saa, or a bunker underneath it, as a command centre. At least 14 people were killed in the strike, including nine members of a family and two children, according to residents. Brigadier-General Vincent Brooks, the US Central Command spokesman, said: “As to who was inside and what their conditions are, it will take time to determine. We may never be able to determine who was present.” Whether or not Saddam survived, Mr Bush insisted that the Iraqi President had lost his grip on Iraq. “I can’t tell you if all ten fingers are off the throat, but finger by finger it’s coming off and the people are beginning to realize that,” he said.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,5944-639777,00.html
This quote with the picture of a young boy “wanting his hands back” does it for me!
D. Jovanovic
USA - Wednesday April 09, 2003 at 9:58 am
Mr. Taylor,You are absolutely and unquestionably right! I only hope that the rest of fair and intelligent world sees it too.
Or have we turned into hypocrites, pragmatists and lairs all?
D. Jovanovic
USA - Wednesday April 09, 2003 at 10:14 am
ICTY as "witness protector". ICTY prosecution's responsibility for the murder of Milan Levar.As noted in posts above, ICTY indicted the editor of Montenegrin newspaper Dan for revealing the identity of witness K32, a Muslim Yugoslav army soldier (and former deserter) who testified on July 17, 2002 about alleged killing of civilians in the village of Trnje (or Medvedje - the "witness" had changed his mind).
Unfortunately there is no judicial authority willing to indict Carla Del Ponte and the prosecution gang for failing to protect Milan Levar, a Croat who exposed the massacre of Serb civilians in Gospic, received plenty of death threats for 2 years and was eventually killed on August 28, 2000. As far as I know, neither have they done anything to find his killers. Their blatant hypocricy and criminal negligence must be exposed in the press.
Pythagoras C
Greece - Wednesday April 09, 2003 at 10:25 am
Thank you Ms. Martinovic.I only hope that there will be people as honest as Kostunica and in addition energetic enough to take over the reign in Serbia.
D. Jovanovic
USA - Wednesday April 09, 2003 at 12:15 pm
The key question regarding this journalist is who told him who witness K-32 was?How would a journalist from DAN be in a position to know who K-32 was unless somebody connected with the tribunal told him?
In that case shouldn't it be the person who leaked K-32's identity to the journalist, rather than the journalist who reported what he was told that should be subject to contempt?
We can see from some previous reports from "Free Serbia" that the information about the protected witnesses isn't very secure.
Consider the example of C-013 who Free Serbia reported on January 30, 2003 was "a police officer in Vukovar until spring 1991. Then he was secretary of interior affairs in SAO Slavonija, Baranja and Western Srem. After the war he worked at Croatian police." Based on that information anybody who really wanted to could figure out who C-013 was.
Obviously the tribunal is leaking the information, and it should look at it's own conduct rather than prosecuting journalists for reporting the information that they uncover to the public.
Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States - Wednesday April 09, 2003 at 1:09 pm
Too-clever-by-half Trust-me Tony to get his just deserts
Peter Taylor
Herts/UK - Wednesday April 09, 2003 at 1:18 pm
Peter Taylor,A very succinct description of events. Thank you.
I find it obscene, especially now, that Blair and Bush are playing at "peacemakers" in Northern Ireland. They have no scruples at all.
Anna P
California - Wednesday April 09, 2003 at 1:55 pm
The Minister of Justice of Serbia (Mr. Vladan Batic) said that the USA have promised 4.5 million dollars in aid in order to help cover costs of the crackdown on the organized crime in Serbia. It is a shame that Serbia does not have enough money to cover these costs on its own.
Comment: Does this mean that the USA has same special interest in what the results on the crack down would be?
The Vice President of Serbia (Mr. Cedomir Jovanovic) said today: "In the eyes of opposition I see fear. No wander that they are afraid we are today delivering to them the bill that we were not able to deliver to them on the October the 5th of 2000.
Comment: Why this bill was not delivered on the October the 5th remains to be seen? Is everybody that is in opposition responsible for the criminal activities alleged to the former regime? Can all the alleged criminal activities be associated with the former regime? What was the minister of the police and justice doing from 5th October 2000 till the killing of Mr. Djindjic.
For the people that speak Serbian read more at especially on categorization of the press:
http://www.novosti.co.yu/vest.asp?vest=13036&rubrika=Društvo
Pera Bora
Ottawa
Canada - Wednesday April 09, 2003 at 2:39 pm
Vera, I am reading quite a number of articles daily in Serbian on what is going on. I have never heard of a group called "Hague Brotherhood". Is this a new invention or I am wrong?
A Quote:
The group behind Zoran Djindjic's March 12 killing - called the "Hague Brotherhood" - hoped the assassination would create widespread chaos and planned to follow with a coup against Serbia's government, the officials said on condition of anonymity.
Pera Bora
Ottawa
Canada - Wednesday April 09, 2003 at 6:39 pm
There is a lot of interesting information about the events in Serbia and their connection with the Milosevic "trial" at http://www.icdsm.org/more/press4-3.htm
Robert Hessen
New York
N.Y. - Wednesday April 09, 2003 at 8:36 pm
The forgotten Geneva ConventionClick on the picture, read the caption and remember.
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La - Wednesday April 09, 2003 at 9:10 pm
Mr, Pera Bora,I just had a quick look at the link you gave. It is "Novosti" in Serebian.
To me it sounded like a blatant propaganda deiven by NATO money!
D. Jovanovic
USA - Thursday April 10, 2003 at 12:06 am
Mr. Jovanovic I agree with you.
Pera Bora
Ottawa
Canada - Thursday April 10, 2003 at 12:06 am
Mr. Jovanovic I agree with you.
Pera Bora
Ottawa
Canada - Thursday April 10, 2003 at 1:43 am
The Iraqis are stealing whatever they can get their hands on. I have to smile when I read about this and/or watch them on television. Why I smile about this is that not too long ago, Chalie Rose was interviewing someone, I am sorry I cannot remember who it was, but that person said the Iraqis were not like the people of the Balkans, they were cultured and educated and would behave differently. They certainly do behave differently.
Kathryn Love
SJC
USA - Thursday April 10, 2003 at 5:01 am
Kathryn
Indeed, the Balkan lot may have had much more stomach for the "up close and personal" stuff which NATO was so desperate to avoid. Note how NATO had no problem destroying their infra structure compared to the Iraqis which the "Coalition" so carefully preserved. Was that the punishment they got for saying GET LOST! to Nato?
What's with all these closed sessions and protected witnesses again?!
Get a spine, May. Pompous, arrogant, corrupt and unscrupulous slug!
STOP SUPPRESSING THE EVIDENCE! WE HAVE A RIGHT TO HEAR IT!
David
Australia - Thursday April 10, 2003 at 8:11 am
... bit unkind to slugs, methinks, David ...
Dennis Revell
USA - Thursday April 10, 2003 at 10:47 am
Kathryn,What we are seeing is that Iraq's streets are being taken over by criminals.
There are no police and so a bunch of young men are exploiting the situation to go on looting sprees.
They aren't only looting government buildings, but private property as well, hotels, foreign embassies, people's homes. We don't hear anything about this, but I would bet money that in addition to the looting these men are going around and rapeing the women as well. What is there to stop them?
I have noticed that in all of the footage of the "celebration looting" I've seen that women have been absent. This tells me that the women have something to fear by going out.
Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States - Thursday April 10, 2003 at 11:00 am
Vera,Mr. Kostunica owns only two cats not nineteen.
vesa v.
france - Thursday April 10, 2003 at 12:33 pm
And I forgot to add - with either two or 19 cats - he is still Serbia's only hope to build a civilized and moral community.
vesa v.
france - Thursday April 10, 2003 at 12:46 pm
And one more comment - more of cultural than political nature - even Vera who is one smart lady falls for general Yugoslave/Serbian/Montenegro concept that what you wear is what you are. And God help you if you do not fit the standard - if your suit is not freshly ironed that is the sign that you are "weird" and "goofy" I would care less wheater my leaders are wearing Armani outfits, more wheather they are moral and responsible human beings.
vesa v.
france - Thursday April 10, 2003 at 1:59 pm
Andy, you said:-" They aren't only looting government buildings, but private property as well, hotels, foreign embassies, people's homes.
Also hospitals, with patients present, so I've heard. Who's gonna stop them, armed to the teeth. Apparently armed 'protection' gangs stand outside the establishments that are being looted.
Dennis Revell
USA - Thursday April 10, 2003 at 3:20 pm
Kathryn, every people behave differently. What we are seeing in Iraq is actually very close to what was happening in the "liberated" Kosovo and in the subdued level is still going on. I have seen some of the worst scenes of looting in Kosovo, at the time of its "liberation" but this was hidden from the public as fast as possible. Due to the looting what ever stayed after the bombing of the fragile industry of Kosovo was destroyed by looting and mismanagement. Unfortunately NATO brought to power in Kosovo gangsters. This is why they can not establish democracy in Kosovo for years. I have heard that the head of the Iraqi Liberation Congress is wanted in Jordan for theft of millions. Who are the rest of the members of the future government of Iraq remains to be seen.
David, I am not sure that USA paid more attention in preserving infrastructure in Iraq than in Yugoslavia. I just taught that they did more lip service on that. We have not seen much of the scenes of fighting grounds in the "liberated" cities of Iraq. My impression is that they mercilessly bombed any building for which there was a slightest indication that there were soldiers in it. I think that we will never find out how many civilians died or were wounded and maimed in this conflict. On the other hand if you are right this is because they wanted to make less damage to their future property. What is sure it is that they have not attacked and destroyed oil industry in Iraq as they did in Yugoslavia.
In one of his articles written yesterday form Bagdad Mr. Robert Fisk is saying:
"At the Palestine Hotel, they smashed Saddam's portrait on the lobby floor and set light to the hoarding of the same wretched man over the front door. They cried "Allahuakbar" meaning God is Greater. And there was a message there, too, for the watching Marines if they had understood it."
Two days ago I saw Mr. Byden on the CNN. He stated that the new occupiers of Iraq would need 20 billion USA dollars every year, just to sustain the military required for keeping peace in Iraq. He asked other nations to help in this effort. How much money would be left over to rebuild Iraq and help people get back their lives remains to be seen. I am sure that these are not the only costs held against the Iraq. I guess that they will have to pay for every penny spent on this war, but they will be never told that.
Pera Bora
Ottawa
Canada - Thursday April 10, 2003 at 4:22 pm
"Kostunica won't call for Hague surrenders" - Beta (April 10)"BELGRADE -- Thursday. Vojislav Kostunica said today that he will not appeal to former Bosnian Serb leaders Radovan Karadzic and Ratko Mladic to surrender to the Hague Tribunal.
The former Yugoslav president told Belgrade media that he had not agreed to make such an appeal during his term of office and would certainly not do so now.
He also said that he would not respond to a call from federal President Svetozar Marovic for all parties to declare themselves on cooperation with The Hague. "
This important piece of news shows that Kostunica, despite his shortcomings, is a statesman who can always make a courageous stand in a difficult situation. I tried to send a message to Beta praising both Kostunica and Beta for publishing this piece, but the mail did not go through. I believe it is important for Serbian / Montenegrin media to have such input these days.
Pythagoras C
Greece - Thursday April 10, 2003 at 11:31 pm
Actually Vesa Kostunica had twenty (20) cats and sad to say eighteen (18) were arrested along with Eight thousand (8,000) people (all former Milosevic allies) for conspiracy to assassinate Djindjic. God only knows the fate of these poor cats whose only crimes appear to be loyalty to Kostunica.Someone on the forum stated Djindjic was not a fan of Milosevics. I forgot who made that comment. I am wondering why he was not and why the Serbian people turned on Milosevic. Were they always unhappy with him or did they turn after years of wars and sanctions? So far, forgive me if I am wrong, it appears that Milosevic had the brain power of Yugoslavia. It was suggested that Kostunica is a wimp, and being a wimp myself, I have to say that we wimps do not accomplish much, even if some like cats. I am not one of the cat lovers myself. I do not believe Milosevic started any wars in the Balkans for a “Greater Serbia.” I am quite sure the Croatian Serbs were being abused by Tudjman and his followers and I have read articles and know (for a fact) the Croatian Serbs were losing their civil rights. As far as I am concerned Milosevic did what he had to.
. My feelings for Bush....when I see him on the television I turn it off. I know there are many, many people in the United States who feel the same way as I do. I dislike his swagger, the people he surrounds himself with, and his policies. Now what was it about Milosevic that some disliked? Did Milosevic really lose the election or was it comparable to the Florida fiasco?
The tragic days of the Krajina. At that time, I was very unhappy with Milosevic, but I got over it when I remembered that Dole was forever begging Clinton to bomb Serbia proper. If Milosevic had tried to save the Krajina Serbs, Serbia proper would have been bombed.
I wonder why the Serbs do not remember the Krajina Serbs and the “sad humiliation” for all Serbs and stand united.?
Iraqi Looters:
My comment regarding the Iraqi people stealing everything in site was only because the guest on “Charlie Rose”called the Iraqi people cultured and educated and the Balkans not so. It was ridiculous for this person to make such a comment. I know that all countries have potential looters, as well as educated and cultured. Case in point, Los Angeles not too long ago when Los Angeles was in flames over an insensitive jury who acquitted the police after they were caught hammering away on one man. A fair fight? Twenty against one? However, the looters were not the Blacks of Los Angeles, the majority of the looters were poor Mexicans.the word is “poor.” If I were poor and got a chance to loot, maybe I would go for Hussein‘s bedroom furniture or something worthwhile, but a few tires? BTW instead of tearing up those pictures I might have saved one because in a few years that could be worth something.
Only I would like to point out that the Serbs who were characterized as evil, bloodletting, butchers, warriors, barbarians, ....never looted, or murdered when they declared their independence from Milosevic (was that a revolution)and the one building they damaged they apologized for. So stand up and take a bow. Like every place else, you are educated and cultured. Who built America? They came from all over the world.
Kathryn Love
SJC
USA - Thursday April 10, 2003 at 11:37 pm
I said Djindjic did not care for Milosevic and I meant Kostunica. Vesa you are right Serbia needs someone they can trust, who knows sometimes we wimps surprise ourselves.The Kings are playing the Lakers tonight. I am not a fan of basketball but good luck to the Kings.
Kathryn Love
SJC
USA - Thursday April 10, 2003 at 11:59 pm
The following site was given to me by a friend. If you want to know something about Iraq other than what you have been hearig from blah, blah, blah, try this http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/Ramsey Clark took out a full page ad in the San Francisco Chronicle to impeach Bush.
Kathryn Love
SJC
USA - Friday April 11, 2003 at 1:20 am
Actually Kathryn, when Milosevic was overthrown there were some incidents of vandalism, at RTS, at a lot of government buildings (remember the federal assembly building on fire) and the SPS headquarters were vandalized and looted.http://www.sps.org.yu/aktuelno/2000/okt/foto-01.html
However, private citizens weren't targeted for looting in Serbia the way that they have been in Iraq.
I guess the criminals who vandalized and looted on October 5th in Serbia are a better class of criminals than the ones who are rampaging through Iraq right now.
Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States - Friday April 11, 2003 at 5:06 am
Pythagoras,The puppets of Belgrade are obviously using this whole assasination story as an excuse to force through some more extraditions. The Hague had, at least up to now (I doubt public sentiment has change much, most Serbs are not that naïve) lost all credibility in the people's eyes. A poll from February 2002 actually claimed that less than some 10% of Serbia's citizens were in favour of the Karadzic and Mladic extraditions (this in in Serbia whose ethnic composition, without Kosovo, is only some 83-84% Serb which means that isn't only the Serbs that distrust the Hague but some minorities too), some 60% were strongly opposed to an extradition, the rest (30%) were either not concerned or said they had bigger problems to deal with.
As far as support from Greece goes, throughout all of these years the Serbian people has recieved so much support from the Greek people (from Canada to Greece) that I seriously doubt we Serbs even deserve it. I doubt that such a strong pro-Greek feeling exists among Serbs and that makes me feel ashamed to tell you the truth.
ΕΛΕΥΘΕΡΙΑ H ΘΑΝΑΤΟΣ
Igor Jaramaz
Canada - Friday April 11, 2003 at 6:33 am
According to RBC agency (Russia), Naser Oric was arrested in Tuzla and transported to Hague.
Pasha Ponomarenko
Australia - Friday April 11, 2003 at 7:11 am
The same information from BBC (I enjoy the titile):"Nato warns Karadzic and Mladic"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/2938715.stm with a curious title
...Mr Oric was seized in Bosnia, near the town of Tuzla on Thursday night. A secret indictment from the tribunal enabled the Bosnian Stabilisation Force (S-For) to make a surprise arrest.
He is charged with "violations of the laws or customs of war, to include murder, cruel treatment, wanton destruction and plunder".
Bosnian Serbs say he was responsible for the murder of more than 1,000 Serb civilians in villages near Srebrenica during the 1992-1995 war.
However he is a local hero to many Muslims in eastern Bosnia, where his image is a common sight on posters.
Mr Oric led the defence of Srebrenica against Serb forces, but left before they overran the town in July 1995 and proceeded to massacre thousands of its Muslim inhabitants...
Pasha Ponomarenko
Australia - Friday April 11, 2003 at 10:39 am
Ms. Love,I am not a wimp, but I agree with most of your views.
Only I did not vote for Gore. ( I voted for Buchanon because of his stance on Kosovo. As a matter of fact, I paid to have a small plane fly over the football game in Illinois and carry the sign: "Remember Kosovo, vote Buchanan".)
All other views of Buchanan I do not support.
D. Jovanovic
USA - Friday April 11, 2003 at 11:11 pm
So now the finger of blame for the Djindjic assassination is pointing at Kostunica and his party.This puts me in the unfortunate position of defending Kostunica, who I think is a fool and who I'm angry at over October 5th, but I don't believe for a second that Kostunica or the DSS was responsible for killing Djindjic.
If the DSS had wanted to kill Djindjic and then use his assassination as a pretext to carry out a coup'd etat (as alleged by the Serbian Government) they would have done it while Kostunica was still in office.
Djindjic was the most powerful man in Serbia, his assassination created a power vacuum. It would make sense if you are the DSS and you want to carry out a coup that you would want to have your president in a position to fill that power vacuum. But, Kostunica didn't hold any office or have any power when Djindjic was shot.
The fact that the Government of Serbia is concocting these outlandish and stupid consperacy theories about the killings of Stambolic and Djindjic leads me to believe that they have something to hide.
People only lie when they have an interest in concealing the truth. If any political consperacies are being executed here they are being executed by the Serbian Government itself.
The DSS didn't kill Zoran Djindjic any more than President Milosevic and his wife killed Ivan Stambolic.
Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States - Friday April 11, 2003 at 11:50 pm
BELGRADE, Serbia-Montenegro (AP) -- Former Yugoslav President Vojislav Kostunica rejected accusations his allies were involved in assassinating his political rival, accusing the government Thursday of a "communist-style witch hunt.''Mr. Jovanovic I believe you are not a wimp. I voted for Ralph Nader who I believe was the best candidate. He opposed the bombing of Serbia and he is not a warmonger. Ralph Nader and Michael Moore are two of the best we have to offer..
Rumsfeld is rather annoyed (snicker, snicker) at the media sheep who have at last gone somewhat astray and are reporting on the anarchy in Iraq. Rummy tells us that the media is showing the same pictures over and over when in fact there really are not too many looters....he says. I wonder, does he mean like the arranged photo op of the marines tearing down the statute of Hussein? Fifty people in a city of millions celebrating? Dumb and dumber.
I have to say that with the departure of the legal expert ”Jari“ this website has gone ker plunk (is that the correct spelling, “I don‘t knoww...“ as Bubbles would say). This site was going strong until a few came on and grabbed Jari by the throat and then when he departed they left. I think Jari made people debate and well you can see for yourselves.
I hope this site keeps going. It is good to keep Milosevic alive through the website otherwise ......you know what will happen. Very few will even care.
Time for Bill Moyer, the only one I can stand on television.
Kathryn Love
SJC
USA