 MILOSEVIC TRIAL DISCUSSION ARCHIVE |
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Former Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic is on trial for war crimes in the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia at The Hague. This marks the first time a head of state has been personally prosecuted before an international criminal court.
Is Slobodan Milosevic getting a fair trial?
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- discussion archive
- Monday April 14, 2003 at 10:10 am
Dear friends of this Forum,The absence of Forum on the web for the past few days made me realize how much I missed it and a dialog and the thought exchange with you all.
In that regard I pondered what would happen if indeed somebody decides to close this Forum?
Can somebody suggest the way how can we , the participants maintain contact and perhaps organize our own self supported website?
D. Jovanovic
USA - Monday April 14, 2003 at 10:18 am
In the discussion Forum of the New York Times I was trying to define my position vis-a-vis the whole past ten years of history in the Balkans. Here is what I wrote:
I hope you understand that ALL sides in that civil war committed atrocities. Given the opportunity all sides did it: Bosnian Muslim, Bosnian Serbs and Croats. We are, after all all the same, same ethnicity same language. That made that civil war all the more cruel.
What I hate is the one sided interpretation of the conflict promulgated by the West and especially U.S. This is done for their special political ambitions and designs. Witness now the present propaganda at work in this Iraq war. However, what has happened in the WWI, 1941- 45 was something else. It was NOT a civil war. Serbs in the early 1941 were not armed and not able to resist. That was the true genocide. Herding people and killing them. By the percentage of Serbs in Croatia, it appeared to be much worse than the pogrom of Jews in Germany. And, moreover, more ordinary Croatians were aware of it than the Germans in Germany. Hence I attribute more burden of guilt to the Croatian people then I would to Germans regarding the Jews. This civil war casualties were blown out of proportion and Croatians for clever psychological reasons have found the way to exonerate themselves from that horrendous past sin. By showing the Serbs in the bad light, in a singular way, the Croats , are finding justification for their previous true crime.
D. Jovanovic
USA - Monday April 14, 2003 at 11:34 am
Ms. Love,There are two reasons Mr. Nausianien is absent from this discussion Forum. Firstly, there is a lull in the ICTY proceedings and seemingly all the legal issues have been thoroughly trashed.
Second, the Forum’s discussions have become more about nationalistic issues in general rather than being strictly confined to the Milosevic trial. In this domain, I am sure Jari finds himself less confident in his expertise.
I, in fact, worry that powers that be will find this to be the reason to abandon this Forum as a facility to publicly criticize US conduct not only in the Balkans but also in the war in Iraq.
D. Jovanovic
USA - Monday April 14, 2003 at 1:21 pm
Drasko
The best approach is to have each other email address and when time comes reconvene somewhere else.
gogolc@hotmail.com
My computer crashed coincidentally with the temporary closure of this forum. I lost 100% of all my notes on the trial and many other treasures because my overconfidence in technology. Now I am looking for a Mac back up program.
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La - Monday April 14, 2003 at 1:28 pm
Mr. Milosevic continues enduring long close sessions, private sessions which he denounces when allowed to do so like today when he said: "Mr. May because this close session you have managed to hide from the public the fact this witness has confessed to have committed war crimes"
Is this enough? Certainly not, since another witness was also involved in the plotting for his assassination!
May, has no problem having this parade of confessed criminals, murderers, etc., fugitive of justice giving evidence.
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La - Monday April 14, 2003 at 1:34 pm
DJALL sides committed atrocities
I disagree. Individuals ( Milosevic) are not responsible for what other individuals do on their own initiative.
Following the 'tribunal' I have not discerned that Milosevic committed ANY atrocities. That is the problem the 'prosecutors' have. They have presented much 'testimony' but no believable 'evidence'. Anyone watching, and I mean anyone, would agree. Hence the media 'blackout'.
J P
USA.Wis - Monday April 14, 2003 at 2:08 pm
JP,I agree that there is no proof that Milosevic committed any crimes. My statement should be taken "globaly" to avoid being labeled as being in denial.
D. Jovanovic
USA - Monday April 14, 2003 at 2:15 pm
All Users,In light of the temporary absence of this site I have decided to try hosting a discussion on my website again. I should have it ready in about a week.
For those of you who don't know my website is:
www.slobodan-milosevic.org
Bookmark the site that way if this discussion ever gets shut-down you will know where to come and we can continue the discussion on my website.
For anybody who is interested I have obtained the English transcripts of 18 interviews that Slobodan Milosevic gave between 1991 and 1993. This is the first time that I know of that these interviews have been posted on the web! You can see that he said the exact same things 10 years ago that he says today. His story hasn't changed one bit, it is totally consistant. This is a sure sign that he is telling the truth.
8 Interviews:
http://www.slobodan-milosevic.org/news/smint041303.htm
10 Interviews:
http://www.slobodan-milosevic.org/news/smint041203.htm
Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States - Monday April 14, 2003 at 3:17 pm
Reading the following, I believe Yugoslavia (Serbs) should always remember what their neighbors did to them. KathrynGovernment Agrees with Deblocking of Yugoslav Assets in U.S.
The Slovenian government has decided to accept the proposal of the U.S. to unblock deposits of the former Yugoslav National Bank at various banks in the U.S. Some US$ 225 million of assets have been frozen by the U.S. administration as part of international sanctions against the now renamed Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.
The government will now inform the U.S. administration of its decision, Gregor Krajc, head of the Government PR and media office, said after the cabinet session that took place on Thursday, 10 April. The U.S. gave the five successors to former Yugoslavia until 15 April to decide whether to accept the proposal to unblock the assets.
The cabinet has decided to okay the proposal following the U.S. guarantee that the assets would be divided in accordance with the umbrella agreement on succession, signed on 29 June 2001 in Vienna. Of the US$ 225 million of currently frozen assets, Slovenia expects US$ 36 million plus interests.
Croatia and Slovenia initially opposed the U.S. decision, claiming that the FRY funds that were to be unblocked also include some assets that had belonged to the former Yugoslavia and are thus subject to the succession agreement.
Mr. Jovanovic: Regarding Jari. I have been reading this forum for a very long time and Jari continually posted while the trial was not in session during Mr. Milosevic’s illness.
No Jari and others did not feel the forum was for nationalistic purposes but rather to discuss the trial. However, some of the nationalistic views could be connected to the trial.
As I have posted on the SUC forum since 1999 I have seen there are those who if they cannot have confrontation will lose interest. There were a few who even admitted to it.
You can believe what you want, but I know what I saw.
Yesterday, Lawrence Eagleburger, who was US Secretary of State under George Bush Sr., told the BBC:
"If George Bush [Jr.] decided he was going to turn the troops loose on Syria and Iran after that he would last in office for about 15 minutes. In fact if President Bush were to try that now even I would think that he ought to be impeached. You can't get away with that sort of thing in this democracy."
The above quote is taken from a report on BBC television, but has so far not appeared on their Website. The quote is mentioned near the bottom of an article in today's Independent. It is also referenced in today's Mirror and Pakistan Tribune.
I hope Eagleberger is right but the Republicans can turn on a dime. It sounds as though the group of Chicken Hawks are out to get control of the Middle East. They have Iraq, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and are looking for more.
IRAQ OCCUPATION: I think the looters were the people who were brought in by media and west to surround the statue of Hussein and pull it down in the staged performance for the cameras. On the “What Really Happened” website there are photos of this staged performance. Out of millions of people in Baghdad just a few hundred in the square celebrating. Is that why they were allowed to break, steal and burn everything in sight?They cooperated? I got to the point where they made me sick.
I saw Thomas Friedman on television this morning, and talking about making me sick......this guy is so full of himself. He tells the American people what he wants them to hear and they believe him.
Kathryn Love
SJC
USA - Monday April 14, 2003 at 3:24 pm
SERBIA AND MONTENGRO: UN Court Refuses to Appoint Lawyer for Milosevic 2003-04-11 09:44:51The UN war crimes tribunal turned down a request by the prosecution for the appointment of legal counsel to help Slobodan Milosevic in his defence. Chief UN war crimes prosecutor Carla del Ponte filed a motion in November arguing that the pressure of defending himself has taken a toll on the former Yugoslav president's health and delayed the trial, reported BolkanTimes.
www.seeurope.net
Kathryn Love
SJC
USA - Monday April 14, 2003 at 4:21 pm
It's good to see all available opportunity is provided here to anyone who would like to express their opinions on the Milosevic trial and other legal/political issues, and not just the same handful of persons going over the same points time and again and up to a dozen times per day. This perhaps comes as a disappointment to those who, aside from internet chat rooms, only have the emptiness which is American television to occupy their waking hours, but for the rest of us it's a fine chance to see input from persons who otherwise would have their posts pushed to the archive log as soon as they were submitted. It's somewhat disappointing that those who support the development of victor's "justice" and imperialist exploitation of the UN for their various acts of armed robbery have not taken the opportunity to make their views known. Apparently, they are too busy cheering on more war crimes elsewhere to take notice of Milosevic, another deposed leader of yet another formerly independent country. It's also telling that those who are interested in defending the actions of the treasonous remnants of the DOS coalition, and who call themselves the "government" of Serbia, have so miserably failed to do so. Much in the manner of those who come here only to defend the US, and its proxies, and their organized murder of unarmed women and children throughout the world.The events of the past couple of weeks in Serbia, while nowhere near the level of devastation in Iraq, are absolutely shocking. State terrorism; tyranny and murder. All of the things Milosevic and the Socialist Party of Serbia were accused of are now very much the order of the day in Serbia, controlled by a pro-NATO puppet regime. It would be interesting to know just how many Serbian citizens actually believed this organized gang of thugs, once known as DOS, would last a term without fragmenting and resorting to the sort of violent tactics which brought them to power in the first place? How much comfort do pro-Western Serbs take in witnessing the irrefutable proof that European and US political leaders approve of all of this: Serbs killing Serbs - which is exactly as they arranged. Serbia, upon descending into civil strife, is cheerfully admitted to the Council of Europe, with full applause and fanfare. It is impossible to overstate how much of European history has been completely devastated in the process, or whatever was left untouched by the events of the past few years.
This refutation of their own "official" and largely mythical history by the European members of NATO hardly comes as a surprise since it's been going on for the better part of the past 50 years. The admission of a nation under severe draconian laws into the Council of Europe is simply par for the course in the post-Cold War era; what with Yugo-Commie Republics recognized by the New World Order as "independent" states without even attempting to negotiate their secession, and descending into massive civil strife in the process. Yugo-Commie Republic of Croatia, for example, was admitted to the Council of Europe only hours after that organization's report condemned the "independent" state for a wide variety of human rights abuses, a horrific record which remans even to this day, while the prized membership in the club of "civilized" nations remains ever so intact. Yugo-Commie Republic of Croatia had already been granted membership in the United Nations, only months after initiating its most recent effort to wholly exterminate the same populations already subjected to genocide in WWII - and thereby tidily resolving whatever questions concerning "Allied" attitudes to WWII crimes in the post-war era the various mythical histories had largely failed to answer.
Nico Tarzanovic
CAN - Monday April 14, 2003 at 5:16 pm
Thank you Mr. Wicoxson and Mr. Charlemagne,For providing your web-links and email addresses.
Unfortunately I can not reciprocate due to my affiliation with government lab and for other reasons.
D. Jovanovic
USA - Monday April 14, 2003 at 8:11 pm
Atrocity:The 12 year old boy in Iraq who lost both of his arms and his parents when a US bomb hit his house (he called it a shack and does not know why it was targeted.) He was badly burned and he wanted to be a doctor. He asked very timidly, “can you get me some arms?” If I ever meet God, I am going to have to bawl him/her out. Why? Why do you let these things happen?
Kathryn Love
SJC
USA - Monday April 14, 2003 at 8:42 pm
Croatia to block former Yugoslavian deposits in US banksZagreb (Bluebull) - Croatia intends to block USD 225 mln deposited by the former Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (SFRY) with American banks, which the US is to unfreeze this month. Croatia will insist on the blocking until reaching a final solution to problems of the succession to the former SFRY.
The US plans to unfreeze in April the USD 225 mln of foreign exchange holdings, which the central bank of the ex-SFRY deposited in American banks and which Washington blocked within sanctions imposed to the Slobodan Milosevic regime and the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.
Croatia thinks that those funds cannot be unfrozen as long as the interested parties, i.e. countries-successors, do not solve the succession problems completely, and Zagreb has already blocked USD 40 mln, deposited by the former SFRY's central bank with American banks, which the US unfroze last December. /md
"ANA" WANTS 2,500 HA OF "ALBANIAN LAND" THAT BELGRADE GAVE TO MACEDONIA,
Skopje, April 14 (MIA) - The so-called Albanian National Army (ANA) Monday took responsibility for the weekend explosion which damaged a railway bridge in northern Kosovo on the border with Serbia, admitting that two of its members died in the action. "Special forces of the Adem Jashari division have blown up the metal railway bridge, which links this Albanian occupied territory with Belgrade", ANA said in a statement posted on its web-site.
"Mitrovica is Albanian land and we will not allow it to remain occupied by the Serbs. ANA has decided to cut all links of the Albanian lands with Belgrade", the statement said.
"Time has come when the international factor should correct the mistake of giving the northern part of Kosovo Mitrovica to the Serbian authorities. It is a time for the 2,500 hectares of ethnic Albanian land, which the genocide authorities of Serbia has given to the artificial power of Macedonia, to be returned to the Albanians. The relevant international factor should hear the reasonable voice that the Albanians in their ethnical hearths are decisive and ready to make sacrifice in order to unite the Albanians into one unique nation on the Balkans," reads the press release.
BBC News Online environment correspondent
The US says it has no plans to remove the debris left over from depleted uranium (DU) weapons it is using in Iraq.
DU shells can go straight through the side of a tank
It says no clean-up is needed, because research shows DU has no long-term effects.
It says a 1990 study suggesting health risks to local people and veterans is out of date.
*******Omitted
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Many veterans from the Gulf and Kosovo wars believe DU has made them seriously ill.
One UK Gulf veteran is Ray Bristow, a former marathon runner. In 1999 he told the BBC: "I gradually noticed that every time I went out for a run my distance got shorter and shorter, my recovery time longer and longer.
"Now, on my good days, I get around quite adequately with a walking stick, so long as it's short distances. Any further, and I need to be pushed in a wheelchair."
Ray Bristow was tested in Canada for DU. He is open-minded about its role in his condition.
But he says: "I remained in Saudi Arabia throughout the war. I never once went into Iraq or Kuwait, where these munitions were used.
"But the tests showed, in layman's terms, that I have been exposed to over 100 times an individual's safe annual exposure to depleted uranium."
------------------------------------------------------------------------ San Ramon braces for big anti-war rally
A protest by hundreds of anti-war activists in San Ramon Monday could result in mass arrests and cause an early morning nightmare for East Bay commuters. Demonstrators are expected to blockade the entrance to ChevronTexaco's headquarters at 6001 Bollinger Canyon Road at 6 a.m. If the crowd grows too large, police will shut down the road in both directions, from the freeway to the Iron Horse Trail. The road is used by workers to reach area office parks and job centers in Alameda and Contra Costa counties. The Contra Costa County sheriff's department and several other area police departments plan to be on hand in large numbers to keep the protest from getting out of hand, such as at recent events in Oakland and San Francisco. The sheriff's department will coordinate with participating local police to manage the crowd and morning traffic. Officials have been communicating with protest organizers to avoid any violence. San Ramon plan a large anti war rally today:
Anti-war activists are targeting ChevronTexaco because they believe the oil giant will profit from the war in the Middle East by processing millions of barrels of Iraqi crude oil at its Richmond refinery.
"ChevronTexaco has an impact globally and locally," said Carwell James, of the group Direct Action to Stop the War. "There will be no stolen oil refined here."
Kathryn Love
SJC
USA - Monday April 14, 2003 at 9:17 pm
Archives are accessible. The Jurist forum is one of the best.The forum is at its best when you have a lot of posters who debate in a civil manner. Also when there is someone who without a doubt has a very bright mind such as Jari.
I
Kathryn Love
SJC
USA - Monday April 14, 2003 at 9:22 pm
In other Forums I have given my views about DU ( depleted Uranium) or any Uranium, and the danger it represents. So I might as well do it once here:I am a particle physicist, which is a technical name for Nuclear Physicist. I am not an MD but know enough about radiological effects of radiation.
The controversy about the danger stems from the fact that indeed Uranium in bulk form produces minimal amount of radiation and is NOT dangerous.( A cashe of DU munitions in a cart would be of no danger to anyone.)
However, when used against the armor the Uranium munition burns and evaporates into tiny microscopic particles. These particles can be ingested or inhaled. A simple calculation shows that in a course of 24 hours such a tiny particle, ( size 10 microns) if logged in the lungs will destroy the small volume of the biological tissue which surrounds it. Probably several thousand cells. The body tries to expel it and thus moves it to another spot, and the process repeats.
This above is absolutely irrefutable!
D. Jovanovic
USA- Monday April 14, 2003 at 10:00 pm
In the name and to the benefit of the Iraqi people:
US rejects Iraq DU clean-up
URL: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/2946715.stm
Pera Bora
Ottawa
Canada- Tuesday April 15, 2003 at 5:20 am
Not another secret witness today!? Where do they find all these valiant witnesses who are prepared to bare their souls in the name of justice but under the cloak of anonymity? For all we know they may be telling May that they witnessed a batallion of Serbs raping and mistreating May's mother in Gospic, Dubrovnik or wherever while she was on holidays. And they all claimed "Slobo sent us".Seems to me that May is decidedly keen to flick into closed sessions even where it is not to do with the identity of the witness but more with witness credibility.
Nice try, Slug May, but we have you sussed out! You can hide, but you can't run, can you? Shame about the slime trail, eh? :-)
David
Australia- Tuesday April 15, 2003 at 7:11 am
As Mr. Milosevic told May (NATO) yesterday keeping the trial in close session hided to the public the nature of the last two witnesses:
One admitted committing war crimes and the second was a member of a conspiracy planning to take over the Yugoslav government and to kill Mr. Milosevic.
May (NATO) obviously like this kind of criminals giving testimony.
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La- Tuesday April 15, 2003 at 8:38 am
Will somebody please tell me the point of this last witness?What is proven by a witness who testifies about alleged acts pupetrated by persons he can't even begin to identify?
Not only did he fail to identify the purpetrator of a single crime, but he couldn't even say on whose behalf the unknown criminals acting. He couldn't say if they were the JNA, the RS Army or somebody else, he simply didn't know.
Did they fish this person out of a lunatic assaylum or something? He actually got angry because Slobo was "asking too many quesions."
But please if somebody knows what the prosecutor was trying to prove against Milosevic with this last protected witness I would appreciate it if you would tell me.
Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States- Tuesday April 15, 2003 at 9:41 am
It is a criminal enterprise this trial long beyond any reason, hoping Mr. Milosevic will suffer a fatal heart attack to end this farce. Shame on the ICTY, the UN and the criminals running this world.
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La- Wednesday April 16, 2003 at 7:28 am
test
d a
s- Wednesday April 16, 2003 at 9:09 am
Another secret witness today, so-called "B-129," a woman who was apparently a high official in the SSJ (Serbian Unity Party). She claims to have worked for the SSJ from 1994 until 1995.This woman denied any ideological affiliation with the SSJ and she worked for the SSJ for only 2 years, just for the pay check she said. But based on the information she had she would have had to be in the highest echelons of the SSJ.
Not only did she know intricate details about all of Arkan's Tigers' "top secret missions," but she also knew where the money was coming from and how much money there was, she knew about everything. How some woman with no ideological ties to the party, and only working with them for 2 years can get to know so much about the SSJ and have so much personal contact with Arkan seems suspicious to me. I don't think she worked for the SSJ at all and that is why she is a secret witness.
If she is who she says she is then the SSJ could figure out her identity. She enumerated her duties, for example she says she counted and distributed the money for the SSJ. The SSJ probably knows who did that job from 1994-1995, and so if she is telling the truth the SSJ (who she is implicating in crimes) will know who she is and her protected status is pointless as far as her protection from them is concerned.
Just like the previous witness "B-17001" the cook in the B-H Army who got shot at by persons unknown, this current witness has nothing to do with Slobodan Milosevic.
Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States- Wednesday April 16, 2003 at 9:38 am
Another interesting thing about Ms. "B-129" is the intercepts that Mr. Nice played."B-129" said that Arkan wouldn't do anything unless the DB of Serbia authorized it. But in the intercept Biljana Plavsic asked Arkan's secretary directly to send help. Why would Plavsic ask the headquarters of Arkan directly if Arkan was suborned to the DB of Serbia?
The only time that "B-129" placed the DB of Serbia outside of Serbia was when she said that they (in cooperation with the Serbian Volunteer Guard) were helping Fikret Abdic with the training of his men.
The bottom line about "B-129" is that she worked at the SSJ office in Belgrade and almost all of the information that she testified about was hear-say, things that she had heard from other people.
Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States- Wednesday April 16, 2003 at 10:26 am
Andy
The purpose of this last batch of witnesses is presumably twofold:
1. They demonstrate that Milosevic "must have known" about the minutest details of every crime perpetrated and has got rid of any of the really important witnesses who could have gone public.
2. Given Milosevic's admirable record in ethnic cleansing, the other side is having real difficulties finding credible witnesses whose positions and testimony can be verified by the general public.
The cumulative element of the evidence is witnessed by any Tom, Dick or Harry getting up on the stand and testifying about hearsay they heard from any Jack or Jill. There are so many of those it must of course be true! A million 5th columnists can't be wrong, can they? And if they were high level cleaners or janitors at the SSJ or some such similar organisation with intimate links to the Serbs, and therefore Milosevic, so much the better and more reliable their evidence.
It's called scraping the bottom of the barrel until the "democratic reformists" in Belgrade manage to extort some more evidence from their "nationalist" opposition via emergency law principles.
That's the new "MARTIAL Plan" for modern Yugoslavia. At least maybe the people will get lots of Truman's eggs again which they may judiciously despatch towards the ICTY and the reformists at high velocity.
David
Australia- Wednesday April 16, 2003 at 1:26 pm
UNMIK released some new numbers for Kosovo today:> 4,000 bodies exhumed since the end of the war.
> 145 bodies identified.
> 4,300 still listed as missing.
> 3,855 of the exhumed bodies are unidentified, and are most likely still considered missing.
> 909 of the missing persons are non-Albanians.
> Number of mass-graves found in Kosovo: 0
Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States- Wednesday April 16, 2003 at 1:36 pm
It should be noted that the list of missing persons is still being added to and that many of the people on the list vanished AFTER the NATO occupation began.
Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States - Monday April 14, 2003 at 10:00 pm