 MILOSEVIC TRIAL DISCUSSION ARCHIVE |
| JURIST >> LEGAL NEWS - WORLD LAW >> Discussion >> Milosevic Trial Discussion Archive |
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Former Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic is on trial for war crimes in the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia at The Hague. This marks the first time a head of state has been personally prosecuted before an international criminal court.
Is Slobodan Milosevic getting a fair trial?
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- discussion archive
- Thursday April 17, 2003 at 7:35 am
Did anybody see the "trial" today. All I got on the feed was black.I am especially churious to know what Milosevic said, if anything, about this alleged accusation from Pavkovic that he ordered a helicopter for the assassination attempt on Vuk Draskovic.
Did anyobdy see the "trial" transmission today?
Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States - Thursday April 17, 2003 at 8:26 am
Simple arithmeticAre we not all heartily sick of the dishonesty of Blair? The most recent example being his accusation of the execution of two British soldiers on which he was forced to retract. Let us examine some of the pronouncements of this Nato ‘Moral Leader’ before his attack on Serbia:
“Britain stands ready with our NATO allies to take military action…to avert what would otherwise be a humanitarian disaster in Kosovo. We cannot contemplate, on the doorstep of the EU, disintegration into chaos and disorder… [t]o walk away now would…be a breach of faith” (Blair, Statement in the House of Commons, March 23, 1999).
This is an amazing example of Blair’s dishonesty and bad faith. What was causing the disintegration into chaos and disorder: Britain along with Bin Laden, Germany and the USA was supporting the armed incursion of Kosovo by KLA terrorists including Mujahedin. Simply withdrawing support for this KLA terror campaign - which since 9/11 has been Blair and his fellow criminals avowed intent - would have put an end to the “chaos and disorder”.
“I feel very strongly that, as President Clinton has said, this is a battle over the values of civilization” (Blair, Interview).
Four years on let us examine “the values of civilization” in Kosovo under Nato domination for which Blair was happy to kill and injure thousands of Serbs in 1999. Some one third of a million of Kosovo’s minority populations have been exiled or internally displaced and now live in ghettoes. Thousands, including loyal Kosovars, have been murdered and injured under the new regime. More than one hundred Christian churches have been destroyed. Tens of thousands of properties and businesses have been destroyed or stolen. Not one of the senior KLA leaders responsible for this murder and mayhem has been indicted by the ICTY.
“The aim of the military strikes…is crystal clear…it is to curb Milosevic’s ability to wage war on an innocent civilian population. 250,000 of them are homeless, 2,000 killed since last spring. These are our fellow human beings. We are doing what is right for Britain, for Europe. That is simply the right thing to do” (Blair, Broadcast to the Nation, March 26, 1999).
We may add to the statement above Blair and his minister’s accusations, after the bombing started, that tens of thousands of Kosovars had been slaughtered by the Serbs. But now the truth is emerging. Only 4000 bodies discovered and no mass graves states Jose Pablo Paraybar, Head of UNMIK’s Missing Persons and Forensic Medicine Unit, 16 April 2003.
Today when Britain’s Chief Police Commissioner, Sir John Stevens, declares that there is evidence that British Police and Army personnel colluded in a campaign of murder in northern Ireland. The truth we see prevails eventually in spite of Blair’s dishonesty. In Paraybar’s report we see that of the 4,000 bodies at least 1249 were of Kosovars minority populations which were attacked by the KLA. This leaves at most 2,751. A former ‘Prime Minister’ of Kosovo, Bujar Bukoshi, has claimed that many Kosovars were murdered by the KLA and this is estimated to be more than a thousand. This leaves no more than 1,750 which may be the responsibility of Serbian security forces and at least 2249 the responsibility of the KLA. Its simple arthimetic.
You may wonder why the KLA Leaders are not in the Hague instead of ruling Kosovo and why only 145 bodies have been identified in four years of investigations, much less than one each week. Do you get the feeling that in spite of the so called court of justice in the Hague, the ICTY, some people like Blair are not very keen to get to the truth?
Peter Taylor
Herts/UK - Thursday April 17, 2003 at 9:27 am
Today s "trial" lasted only half an hour, and then suddenly electrical installations broke down, so thay all moved into another smaller courtroom which is much smaller and there were not enough room for journalist so they could not watch internal transmission. It is said that they will be able to watch it next week. So the whole testemony was hidden from public. What does it indicate? De Stefano denied that he funded Serbian Volunteer guard, he also said that he knows ever memeber of the staff and that secretaries were in charege of taking phone calls as well as ushering visitors in the office of Ražnatovic. The staff was not familiar with business as well as other confidential matters. Another false witness. Also the Kariæ family denied their participation in the funding. The Hague "court" took off their gloves and shows who they really are. Bunch of bullies.
LANA BURIC
SERBIA - Thursday April 17, 2003 at 12:55 pm
Peter,I think you're terrific.
Is anyone listening to you in Britain?
Anna P
California - Thursday April 17, 2003 at 1:09 pm
The Bush administration has made it very clear they want a tribunal in Iraq to judge the Iraqi Baath party leadership which they tell us is similar to the NAZI party. Poor amateurs of history, they also tell us they don't want International tribunals, like the ICTY, so far and detached from their people and country, so expensive and run amuck without purpose . . .
The more things change the more it is the same.
Gogol Charlemagne
Shnagri-La - Thursday April 17, 2003 at 3:28 pm
Peter in every war the first casualty is our own national values. Freedoms that we hold dear are compromised. Freedom of speech, press and even religion are trampled by propaganda and outright lies. People are apprehensive to speak their mind fearing retaliation by their employer. Aggression against Yugoslavia and now Iraq will make it easier for aggression against the next victim. The lies are now being justified with humanitarian this and humanitarian that and in the minds of many “the values of civilization” that were trampled are forgotten. The armless boy who has been taken for treatment in Kuwait is like the precision bomb that found its mark. The liars now want us to forget the thousands of the so-called precision bombs that missed their target including the one that cut that boys arms and killed his mother and sister. To forget and “walk away now would…be a breach of faith”. Where are you Jari?
Walter Trkla
Kamloops BC
Canada - Thursday April 17, 2003 at 4:32 pm
Mr. Trkla,May I used your post and quote it with or without aattribution?
D Jovanoavic
USA - Thursday April 17, 2003 at 5:13 pm
Of course Mr. Jovanovic. No attribution needed.
Walter Trkla
Kamloops BC
Canada - Thursday April 17, 2003 at 6:15 pm
Where is Jari? We miss Jari. Has he been arrested?
Marko Mirkovic
Canada - Thursday April 17, 2003 at 6:43 pm
The New Right in the "New World Order" up to date used a complex veb of missrepresentation and fallacycies in its game of a mass American public and global deception. It started under President Reagan, yes, President Clinton, used simmilar demonisation of the Former Yugoslavia, but was "fortunate" to find the "smocking gun" for his military action on Yugoslavia, remeber "humanitarian intervetion" to save the KLA - yet, the same KLA was debated by USA Congress - Senat included, and acknoledged that it was a terrorist organisation.
Carla Berg
Austria - Thursday April 17, 2003 at 6:55 pm
Walter
Having liberated the child of its arms and half its skin, the least the humanitarian "West" can do is fly him to Kuwait to see the magnificent zoo there. And they might throw in a couple of prosthetic, bionic arms as well. A proud humanitarian record indeed!
Peter
Some people like Blair don't want the truth. It's a little inconvenient at this point given that the NATO bombs didn't actually kill enough Albanians to justify the bombings and blame Milosevic and the Serbs for a genocide. But don't worry, our free, democratic and enlightened media will fix the problem.
The bigger problem is that it is always twenty years too late and people like Blair are enjoying the benefits of their fat-cat pensions for "a job well done".
David
Australia - Thursday April 17, 2003 at 7:02 pm
Problem with electrical installations...Don't they have professional technicians in den Haag? There are Highly Professional Judges and Learned Lawyers emloyed in the Tribunal according to themselves, and as May has pointed out, they cost a lot of money. Why don't they spend just a fraction on some technical experts and equipment?
Is there a single day without problems with microphones, noices in headsets and a billion other disturbances ?? Just a few; No interpretation. French in the english channel. Transcripts not running on their screens. Voice distorsion makes it impossible for the native speakers to hear. Etc. Etc.
Every time a video or audiotape is playesd there are technical problems. And the videolink was a dissaster. And now also the UN server has problems so that the ICTY web-site can't be updated..
And where are the missing unredacted transcripts of Babic's testemony?
Also in the Bard archive there are missing parts and failing links and missed days that probably never will get fixed ?
Are you aware, Frank?
Ann-Marie Laios
Sollentuna
Sweden - Thursday April 17, 2003 at 7:05 pm
For Congressional record on NATO intervention in Yugoslavia (Senate) May 3, 1999 see http:/www.fas.org/man/dod-101/ops/docs99/s990503-kosovo05.htm and Congressional Record, may 5.1999 http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/ops/docs99/h990505-kosovo01.htm "Duke, the KLA is supported by Osma bin Laden,the terrorist that blue up our embasises..read the rest. for the best of American peoples future, as well as the future of the world.
Carla Berg
Salzburg
Austria - Thursday April 17, 2003 at 8:35 pm
Pasha Ponomarenko: Friday April 11, 2003 at 7:11 am... Serbs proceeded to massacre thousands of Srebrenica's Muslim inhabitants?
Where'd d'ya get that gem from? CNN?
Where are the remains? Presumably 2 (by now skeletal) hands imply 1 or 2 people? I mean, at least.
Have "thousands" been DNA identified yet? Or is it the same pathetic situation as with the much more recent KosovO dead? And when they are, who could trust the traceability of their origins? From Srebrenica, or from the general melee of a civil war all around Bosnia? I wonder if they had has many freezer trucks running around Bosnia as alleged there were around KosovO and Serbia? All headed to Srebrenica, may be?
I don't believe a word of it for a moment. More western BS precision-guided PR.
Dennis Revell
USA - Thursday April 17, 2003 at 9:15 pm
Great posts, Peter; I think you're wonderful too. ;-)Small World, I've been in recent touch with some anti-"war" Taxi drivers ;-) in Bedford, just next door to you, right?
Their web-site "Britons Versus Bush" has decided to try some kind of "mini-campaign" around the Open Letter to Blair, a link to which I stuck here a couple or so archives ago:-
Brits vs. Bush: An Open Letter to Tony Blair
(an indictment of the Prime Minister)I guess with Jari's much lamented apparent permanent departure, and to keep the forum alive, perhaps we could suggest to the Mods. that they re-name the forum something like:- "Legal implications of Western foreign policy (mis;-)adventures: Milosevic, Iraq ... ?".
( ... runs for cover ... )
I think I've given my E-mail address here before, it can also be found in the link that I gave.
Dennis Revell
USA - Thursday April 17, 2003 at 9:17 pm
There were no sessions today in the ICTY, according to the display on TV B92, which appeared instead of the transmission this morning, the reason being some technical mishap in the courtroom one. So, the examination-in-chief of the secretary No. B-129 will hopefully continue tomorrow. By what I saw of it yesterday, let me just give you one indication of its 'veracity': there's absolutely no way that a boss of the Arkan-type would tell a secretary (and not even his personal secretary, let alone one of the staff secretaries) any info that she doesn't need to know. Such a Balkan macho man, deeply patriarchal and bossy, and with shady businesses going on to boot, would not chit-chat with a hired-help woman in his office about not doing anything without the consent of the Serbian State Security, about receiving money from the Security, Army or specific sponsors, about not ever taking prisoners, about his secret missions etc. etc. Such a woman may be involved in counting money and putting it into envelopes, but she surely could not and need not know where the money comes from. The second thing undermining her 'testimony' is the way she gave her answers: like so much rehearsed ready-made sentences. Her voice was slightly electronically distorted, but this couldn't cover the flatness of her intonation, the formality of her formulations and she finished many of her answers with little telltale inquiries directed to Nice: "Would this do?", "Do you find this satisfactory?" I would be very much surprised if she was a secretary in any staff at all, more likely she was simply coached to tell the story.Last week I was busy with an urgent multi-page translation, then there were few days without the access to this site (what happened?) and then I was engaged for days with around-the-clock interpreting for a team of French and British businessmen wanting to purchase our most famous marble quarry - thus my absence from the forum. Reading your posts again after some time just confirmed my original thought about you, people: no matter what are your business and private interests, nor what position you take in relation to the subject matter here, you're individuals who think and not just vegetate. Unlike the bunch of businessmen I spent my last 3 days with: guys who know everything about, say, assets turnover or share capital, but preciously little about anything else. Don't misunderstand me: some of the most exciting human beings I met were also businessmen, but these particular guys, when we had a lull in business talks, while driving to other venue, they would discuss the differences in their respective pension plans for a relaxing chat! They were the most boring and square and uninteresting group of males a woman could ever meet. So, reading again your posts was a refreshment, believe me. And one of the Frenchmen even tried to 'discuss' with me the 'problems' our country had (don't you just love the understatement), and probably feeling the need to explain the position of his country towards the aggression against Iraq as opposed to the aggression against us (when France not only did not complain about it, but actually participated in it), he said in a way of justification something about how 'your President did pretty terrible things then'. I simply asked him: "How do you know what he did?", which ultimately led him to acknowledge that all his info on the topic came from the mainstream media.
Since I was away from the forum for a while, there are some issues I want to address. First, to Vesa V: You got me all wrong. Both Djindjic and Arkan, for example, wore Armani suits, but this didn't make them reliable, honest nor capable politicians; quite the contrary. Kostunica wears crumpled cheapos, but this doesn't make him any less honest nor any more capable, unfortunately. I only mentioned his suits to point out he doesn't care for money one bit and therefore cannot be accused of conniving with criminals. Yes, you're right, he's our best choice currently, but he definitely lacks organizational skills and this may prove fatal for his political future and may prevent his re-election. But, better him than those other creeps who are available at the moment.
Some spoke of looting and war. War brings out everything in men, the worst, the absurd and the best. The worst being, of course, the violence. I'll give you two stories, the source of both being my mother and the place for both Vukovar. The first story is of looting, which is the absurd face of war.
It was at the end of those three months of street fighting in 1991, when zenge [members of the ZNG - Zbor Narodne Garde = Croatian National Guard Corps] started to withdraw from the town, leaving the buildings full of civilians from which they fought and fleeing the town during the night. People felt the end was near, although there were still sporadic shootings. My mother dared to peek from the basement of her apartment building where they spent all that time and she looked down one of the main streets which was totally devastated and full of toppled trees, rubble and gutted houses. She saw an older, respectably looking woman walking along the street, coming to one of the small villas with a huge round opening in one of its walls, so that the whole inside of a nicely furnished dining room was visible. The woman came into the house through that opening and shortly afterwards came out, carrying two dining chairs. These were heavy, tall chairs, which she carried with difficulty, holding them back to back and awkwardly trying to avoid dragging them. From time to time, she put her load down and paused. There were gunshots along the street. The woman just calmly proceeded with her looting. What on earth would she need those two chairs for? She would probably need some decent food much more than these absurd odd pieces of furniture. She could get killed the next moment, with all that shooting around her. She was obviously not a criminal.
The second story is of the best in men coming out in war. It happened in the basement of that apartment building, where all the people from the apartments descended to hide from the shells and bullets. Their apartments were occupied by zenge, damaged by fighting, looted. They were downstairs in a tall basement, sleeping on the floor and eating potatoes from their winter stocks. There were some 40 people there, mostly pensioners and of all nationalities: Serbs, Croats, Slovaks, Hungarians…, just like the whole town of Vukovar was a mixture of almost equal percentage of the Croats and the Serbs, with few percentages of other nationalities. So much for the official tale of the Croats besieged in Vukovar by the savage Serbs: people inside Vukovar were of all nationalities and zenge who fought against the JNA [Jugoslovenska narodna armija = Yugoslav National Army] mostly came from other parts of CRO to the town, only a small part of them were locals. So, that graceful 3-storeyed building at the very bank of the Danube was in a way a portrait of the whole town. Each of those decent, elderly people tried to cope with the terrible misfortune the best way they could: some helped organize cooking, those who were the strongest went regularly on the missions to bring water from a well in the courtyard of the Vukovar Hospital across the street (there was no running water anymore), some smoked excessively and traded food for cigarettes even with zenge who occasionally came to check the basement, to shoot from its tall windows or to take away someone (two Croat boys were hiding with their parents there, avoiding to join zenge; one managed to remain hidden, the other was found, taken away, put to the battle and was killed the next day, as his father was soon informed; the man cried every night after that). There was this nice couple of neighbours, Croats, whose son was a famous novelist living in Zagreb and thus his parents were a sort of celebrities themselves among these modest people. Only, the old man didn't cope that well with the situation: he brought a 5-litre can of home-made brandy from his apartment, kept it near his sleeping mat and constantly drank. His wife was utterly embarrassed, but didn't say a word to him. The man was always drunk, excessively merry or slumped dozing. One evening three zenge entered the basement. These were wild and dirty men, fighting for months already, edgy and dangerously looking. They came to check who were the Serbs in the basement, to take them away and to shoot them (the same happened at the nearby basement, people from that building spread the news at the water well). The helpless pensioners just all stood up and waited when those armed guys asked who were the Serbs among them. And then that drunk neighbour stood up, approached zenge with the joviality of a drunkard, hugged two of them and spoke to them in the purest local Croatian dialect: "Boys, let's drink something, will ya…leave the fucking job aside…I've got the nicest brew here…" He talked and talked, all the time dragging them towards the exit, pushing the plastic can into their arms, explaining how and when he made the brandy. The people in the basement heard all four of them babbling and toasting in front of the building for a while. Soon the neighbour returned alone and without the can. For the next few days he just skulked on his cot, sober. No zenge came anymore and four days later the JNA came and released all people from all the basements and took them to the nearby Serb villages, where they could eat and rest for few days. (Some of the pensioners just died a day or two afterwards, as soon as the tension that helped them survive stopped; and no one even had caught cold in that basement during those terrible months.) Then, they could decide where they would go and the JNA provided the buses. My mother wanted to come to Belgrade to me. Her now sober neighbour with his wife wanted to go to his son in Zagreb. They all hugged each other saying goodbye and thanking each other for sharing water, food and brandy.
Vera Martinovic
Belgrade
Yugoslavia - Thursday April 17, 2003 at 9:31 pm
What a terribly moving story (2nd one), Vera.You should send it to those b******s, Blair, Clinton, et alia.
... emphasise on ... Croat "soldiers" coming along to murder Serbs, JNA coming along to free everyone, and letting them go on their way.
Dennis Revell
USA - Thursday April 17, 2003 at 9:32 pm
What a terribly moving story (2nd one), Vera.You should send it to those b******s, Blair, Clinton, et alia.
... emphasise on ... Croat "soldiers" coming along to murder Serbs, JNA coming along to free everyone, and letting them go on their way.
Dennis Revell
USA - Thursday April 17, 2003 at 10:36 pm
Gee whizzz...!
All these secret(ary) witnesses with all that wealth of DIRECT evidence! Amazing how the janitors and cleaners were so well informed about the inner workings of the Milosevic regime.
That Arkan sure must have been a sucker to spill the beans to the secretary witness B-192. I'm surprised he didn't give her a written and signed affidavit to give to the ICTY as well.
David
Australia - Thursday April 17, 2003 at 10:50 pm
Mr Nice...
Give me a call, I have some crucial info that Slobo and Karadzic and Mladic conspired for a Greater Serbia.
They said they had run out of Lebensraum and once they'd enlarged Serbia to cover the whole of Europe, the US was next in line.
But first they clearly said to me, and I "saw it with my very own eyes", that they were going to organise a huge Criminal Enterprise using puppet regimes to bomb the Bosnians, the Albanians, the Afghanis, the Iraqis, the Syrians, the Iranians and the North Koreans.
Then, they would make sure the Palestinians had no more weapons of self-destruction because it was crucial to the stability of the Balkans and the Middle East.
As for the mass graves, they told me that would be no problem as they would all be shipped out of the foregoing countries in large freezers on oil tankers and dumped with any excess depleted plutonium. That's after they'd been shredded and mixed up to confuse the media and the International Justice system.
Mr Nice, as you can see, I have important evidence about this Criminal Enterprise of the Serbs and it would be in the interests of justice and humanity if you could arrange for me to testify as I just want the truth to be known.
I would appreciate it though if you would make sure Mr May prevents that Milosevic bloke from asking me any questions that might adversely affect my sensibilities or confuse me. I don't want to testify about anything but what I want to testify about because everything else is irrelevant.
PS My literacy level is a little deficient (apart from my intellectual deficiency) so if you could speak to Tony and George W to arrange a healthy donation towards its improvement you'd be striking a real blow for democracy, mum's apple pie and freedom. Around .00001% of the Iraqi war chest should do it.
David
Australia - Thursday April 17, 2003 at 11:03 pm
Sorry for the boy, and other victims, including our soldiers, but a major event is in the making. Iraq and the Islamists must now deal with the reality that the US will no longer accept terrorist activities here or internationally.Below is an example of the US unshackling yet another part of the world.
The NY Times ^ | April 14, 2003 | ELIZABETH BECKERASHINGTON THE NYT - A Nation at War: CONTRACTS Firm Wins $62 Million Deal to Restore Education in Iraq By ELIZABETH BECKERASHINGTON, April 14 - Creative Associates International Inc., a firm based in Washington, has won a $62 million contract from the United States Agency for International Development to improve primary and secondary education in Iraq. The first goal will be to open Iraqi schools on schedule this fall, with enough equipment and supplies for all students. In the long term, the firm will retrain teachers and school officials and introduce teaching methods to "lay the foundations for democratic practice and...
The non committed for 'freedom' for the Iraqis are now being held to deeper examination.
Exactly how does the US profit from the billions about to invested in Iraq?
J P
USA.Wis - Thursday April 17, 2003 at 11:15 pm
JP
You really are incorrigible, man... The billions invested are a DROP IN THE BUCKET compared to getting control of the oil and being able to control oil prices and distribution. That gives MASSIVE MASSIVE leverage against other industrialised nations and enables US to control the economy of the world.
It's called COLONIALISM! You invest bucks in the short term and make MEGA BUCKS in the medium to long term. Pure, simple and unadulterated commercial business strategy! Eliminate or nullify the competition. You spend money to make money. Unless of course you think the US business world are all Mother Theresas and the milk of human kindness, in which case I have to give up on you :-)
David
Australia - Thursday April 17, 2003 at 11:20 pm
Very funny, JP.You are a wit.
That $62 million would, of course, be much better spent on education in the US; preferably with some of it towards the education of future leaders, looking at the current lot of mean-minded War-Criminals the US currently has.
The Iraqi educational system knocked the socks off that in the US for a greater proportion of the population than in the US. That's even during the US inspired brutal sanctions.
Have you noticed just how many Iraqis protesting against the US in Iraq (gutsy people) actually speak English? How many GI Joes there speak Arabic?
One article even mentions the translation device, that US forces could use to command surrenders, and all that: "Come out with your hands up", and all that, in Arabic. Brilliant. The only trouble is, it couldn't translate the replies for the interlopers. Witty post, though.
Dennis Revell
USA - Thursday April 17, 2003 at 11:24 pm
Oh, no,is it stuck on bold Test.By the way, what's all that about to the victor goes the spoils.
So it was an American company that got the "education" contract ... interesting ...
Dennis Revell
USA - Thursday April 17, 2003 at 11:27 pm
... and not a Qatari, Jordanian, Egyptian, or FRENCH company that got the contract ... interesting ...
Dennis Revell
USA - Thursday April 17, 2003 at 11:27 pm
Dennis
They speak broken English, that means they are sufficiently uneducated :-) Haven't you noticed how Sahaf pronounces "clothes" as "klo-des"? :-)
BTW I hear Jari and Hasaf have retired to Sombor without Walter, Milan and Me. Traitors!!! :-)
David
Australia - Thursday April 17, 2003 at 11:30 pm
... or Kuwaiti, or UAE, or Bahraini Company ...
Dennis Revell
USA - Thursday April 17, 2003 at 11:34 pm
We need to teach them to speak FLUENT English even if it costs them an arm and a leg! :-(
David
Australia - Thursday April 17, 2003 at 11:40 pm
DavidIn 1973 I went on my first real vacation to Florida, with 5 little kids, the wife and the in-laws in 2 cars.
Right after we got to Florida, the Saudis decided with OPEC to embargo oil. We had to wait and search for a gas fill up before we could go back. I remember GM stock was selling for $119 going and $38 when we got back and the stock never did recover. Then our economy went into the tank and I got laid off.
Point of the story is that we developed other suppliers, North Sea, Venezuela, Mexico, the North Slope etc., etc., etc. We are just one dam good customer.
If you haven't lived history then do some reading and get rid of that silly 'war for oil and profit' kick. Actually the world is awash with oil and there is no profit to be made in Iraq. Its a fact that its more cost effective to take on the terrorist in Iraq than to take them on in Manhattan.
J P
USA.Wis - Thursday April 17, 2003 at 11:43 pm
Otherwise, how else can we explain to them why it's cost them an arm and a leg?
David
Australia - Thursday April 17, 2003 at 11:50 pm
That's it JP, I give up on you :-) You've got me beat mate :-) Just one little thing... who actually CONTROLS, directly AND indirectly the supply of oil? Imagine when the US is finished reeducating the Iraqis to the "American" way of life, I'm sure the Iraqis will be happier to do business with the French, Germans and Russians than the US? I think not. And I'm sure the Iraqis will be happier to sell their oil in Euros than the US$? I think not. You must be speed reading the history books and missing a few clues there mate :-)
David
Australia - Friday April 18, 2003 at 12:18 am
Who actually CONTROLS oil ..I'm not an economist, but I would say Mr. Supply & Demand does when he's not held hostage. Uncle Sam just gets in line like anyone else, and bids.
J P
USA.Wis - Friday April 18, 2003 at 12:18 am
JP
$62million @ $30/barrel = how many days of oil supply if the supply is lets say just a paltry 10 thousand barrels a day per well? Then divide that by 300 and you'll get the picture = A FEW DAYS" SUPPLY!
Here's a link that might throw some light on the matter for you, note that it is US Govt info, not mine:
http://usgovinfo.about.com/library/weekly/aairaqioil.htm?iam=savvy&terms=opec+%2Bproduction
Don't read too fast in case you miss a fact or two :-)
David
Australia - Friday April 18, 2003 at 12:21 am
A few hours supply that should have read!
David
Australia - Friday April 18, 2003 at 7:59 am
Not forgetting that the vast bulk of that $62 million will end up right back in the American economy, with taxes paid on salaries, etc, back with the US Govt.There's no such thing as American aid - it's a euphemism, and merely another technique for pushing US foreign policy aims.
Not a cent of the recent $1 billion "aid" package to the US's lackey Turkey will actually leave US shores: I watched the recent relevant session of Congress on C-SPAN. Apparently what it is good for is to guarantee a further $8 billion dollars worth of loans from other sources.
I don't pretend to know how that works in detail: if someone asked me to loan them $8 billion on the basis that the US "guarantees" $1 billion (assuming the US doesn't fall out with them, as the enemy "du jour", and freeze all their US held assets), I'd tell them to sling their hooks.
Quite a while ago, the US was in hock to the tune of $60,000 for every man, woman and child in the US. Almost certainly much more now. I do understand in more detail that that can only be maintained by the US's awesome military might, allowing them to go get other people's stuff virtually at will, or at least set the conditions for them to "buy" that stuff (as in, "we want to buy it, here's the price you'll sell it to us at, ... or else there'll be 'serious consequences' ... ").
I'd be interested to know just who's getting the interest on that $1 billion that the US "guarantees" to Turkey, every cent of which remains on US shores.
Dennis Revell
USA - Friday April 18, 2003 at 8:10 am
Vera,You're absolutely right about Ms. "B-192." Why would Arkan tell this woman about all of his "secret plans." She wasn't involved in any of those "secret missions" that she seemed to know so much about.
Generally when one wants to do something in secret one dosen't give secret information to non-essential people (like the secretary), and essential people (who are involved in the plans) are only given information on a "need to know" basis.
I find it most interesting that some so-called "technical difficulties" blacked-out the trial the day after the Serbian government accused Milosevic of using the VJ to try and kill Vuk Draskovic.
I remember after the Stambolic accusations Mr. Nice suggested (on March 31) redacting Milosevic's reaction to the accusations from the trial transcript.
Mr. Nice said, "If it is determined that the accused is making remarks for outside consumption; the court may wish to consider redacting his remarks from the transcript."
I wonder if this wasn't the point of the "technical problems," so that the tape of the proceedings could be edited.
Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States - Friday April 18, 2003 at 9:28 am
Dennis,FYI, it wasn't only Wanniski, but NYT as well (by omission, probably :-)), that published a devastating report written by the utmost authority on the subject of Halabja.
A War Crime or an Act of War?<
By Dr. STEPHEN C. PELLETIERE, CIA's senior political analyst on Iraq during the Iran-Iraq war, a professor at the Army War College from 1988 to 2000, headed a 1991 Army investigation into how the Iraqis would fight a war against the United States, author of “Iraq and the International Oil System: Why America Went to War in the Persian Gulf.”
January 31, 2003, Friday
MECHANICSBURG, Pa. - It was no surprise that President Bush, lacking smoking-gun evidence of Iraq's weapons programs, used his State of the Union address to re-emphasize the moral case for an invasion: "The dictator who is assembling the world's most dangerous weapons has already used them on whole villages, leaving thousands of his own citizens dead, blind or disfigured."
The accusation that Iraq has used chemical weapons against its citizens is a familiar part of the debate. The piece of hard evidence most frequently brought up concerns the gassing of Iraqi Kurds at the town of Halabja in March 1988, near the end of the eight-year Iran-Iraq war. President Bush himself has cited Iraq's "gassing its own people," specifically at Halabja, as a reason to topple Saddam Hussein.
But the truth is, all we know for certain is that Kurds were bombarded with poison gas that day at Halabja. We cannot say with any certainty that Iraqi chemical weapons killed the Kurds. This is not the only distortion in the Halabja story.
I am in a position to know because, as the Central Intelligence Agency's senior political analyst on Iraq during the Iran-Iraq war, and as a professor at the Army War College from 1988 to 2000, I was privy to much of the classified material that flowed through Washington having to do with the Persian Gulf. In addition, I headed a 1991 Army investigation into how the Iraqis would fight a war against the United States; the classified version of the report went into great detail on the Halabja affair.
This much about the gassing at Halabja we undoubtedly know: it came about in the course of a battle between Iraqis and Iranians. Iraq used chemical weapons to try to kill Iranians who had seized the town, which is in northern Iraq not far from the Iranian border. The Kurdish civilians who died had the misfortune to be caught up in that exchange. But they were not Iraq's main target.
And the story gets murkier: immediately after the battle the United States Defense Intelligence Agency investigated and produced a classified report, which it circulated within the intelligence community on a need-to-know basis. That study asserted that it was Iranian gas that killed the Kurds, not Iraqi gas.
The agency did find that each side used gas against the other in the battle around Halabja. The condition of the dead Kurds' bodies, however, indicated they had been killed with a blood agent - that is, a cyanide-based gas - which Iran was known to use. The Iraqis, who are thought to have used mustard gas in the battle, are not known to have possessed blood agents at the time.
These facts have long been in the public domain but, extraordinarily, as often as the Halabja affair is cited, they are rarely mentioned. A much-discussed article in The New Yorker last March did not make reference to the Defense Intelligence Agency report or consider that Iranian gas might have killed the Kurds. On the rare occasions the report is brought up, there is usually speculation, with no proof, that it was skewed out of American political favoritism toward Iraq in its war against Iran.
I am not trying to rehabilitate the character of Saddam Hussein. He has much to answer for in the area of human rights abuses. But accusing him of gassing his own people at Halabja as an act of genocide is not correct, because as far as the information we have goes, all of the cases where gas was used involved battles. These were tragedies of war. There may be justifications for invading Iraq, but Halabja is not one of them.
In fact, those who really feel that the disaster at Halabja has bearing on today might want to consider a different question: Why was Iran so keen on taking the town? A closer look may shed light on America's impetus to invade Iraq.
We are constantly reminded that Iraq has perhaps the world's largest reserves of oil. But in a regional and perhaps even geopolitical sense, it may be more important that Iraq has the most extensive river system in the Middle East. In addition to the Tigris and Euphrates, there are the Greater Zab and Lesser Zab rivers in the north of the country. Iraq was covered with irrigation works by the sixth century A.D., and was a granary for the region.
Before the Persian Gulf war, Iraq had built an impressive system of dams and river control projects, the largest being the Darbandikhan dam in the Kurdish area. And it was this dam the Iranians were aiming to take control of when they seized Halabja. In the 1990's there was much discussion over the construction of a so-called Peace Pipeline that would bring the waters of the Tigris and Euphrates south to the parched Gulf states and, by extension, Israel. No progress has been made on this, largely because of Iraqi intransigence. With Iraq in American hands, of course, all that could change.
Thus America could alter the destiny of the Middle East in a way that probably could not be challenged for decades - not solely by controlling Iraq's oil, but by controlling its water. Even if America didn't occupy the country, once Mr. Hussein's Baath Party is driven from power, many lucrative opportunities would open up for American companies.
All that is needed to get us into war is one clear reason for acting, one that would be generally persuasive. But efforts to link the Iraqis directly to Osama bin Laden have proved inconclusive. Assertions that Iraq threatens its neighbors have also failed to create much resolve; in its present debilitated condition - thanks to United Nations sanctions - Iraq's conventional forces threaten no one.
Perhaps the strongest argument left for taking us to war quickly is that Saddam Hussein has committed human rights atrocities against his people. And the most dramatic case are the accusations about Halabja.
Before we go to war over Halabja, the administration owes the American people the full facts. And if it has other examples of Saddam Hussein gassing Kurds, it must show that they were not pro-Iranian Kurdish guerrillas who died fighting alongside Iranian Revolutionary Guards. Until Washington gives us proof of Saddam Hussein's supposed atrocities, why are we picking on Iraq on human rights grounds, particularly when there are so many other repressive regimes Washington supports?
Dusom Sarajlija
USA - Friday April 18, 2003 at 9:53 am
J P USA Wisc.,
How about this angle on the subject of Iraq:
In November 2000, Iraq adopted the Euro as the means of payment for its oil exports when the Euro was valued at 0.80 US$, side-stepping the flak when the US$ devalued. The instability in the Gulf States has been rising and Washington has feared that if all the OPEC countries adopted the Euro instead of the US$ for their oil exports, then the countries that buy oil would sell off the US$ holdings in their central banks and buy Euros to make the transactions.
Basically, it means that the US$ would devalue by up to 40%, according to some analysts, which would spell a global meltdown and bankrupt the United States of America, along with all the countries whose economies are controlled by the IMF, dependent on the USA and on oil imports.
Iraq was the only country in the region over which Washington did not have any influence. With the instability in the other Gulf States, Washington feared that only if it acted quickly, making itself a stakeholder in the region, controlling Iraq’s 10.7% of world oil reserves directly and then spreading its tentacles through the other countries in the region, some of which are already dominated, it would be able to keep OPEC under control and keep the US$ artificially inflated, saving the US economy.
Dusom Sarajlija
USA - Friday April 18, 2003 at 11:10 am
Anna: I don’t believe the truth about Kosovo will ever be recognised by the British public without a massive campaign by an established media giant to counter the propaganda which has gone before. And I don’t see where this is going to come from: certainly no the BBC. Many brilliant and courageous individual journalists like John Pilger, to name just one of the British variety among many throughout the world, have made exceptional contributions but with little apparent success. I make my comments here in the forlorn hope that in the short term some media body of huge influence may recognise the truth and take up the cause. However I do believe with David that by persistence the truth will emerge - eventually.Clearly the vast majority here in the UK do not yet know what has gone on in Kosovo especially since Nato’s attack. How else could Blair and his ministers have been able repeatedly to refer to Kosovo as an example of successful intervention quoted to justify the ‘regime-change attack’ upon Iraq. WMD’s, what WMD’s?
Dennis: (-: Careful: my wife may look over my shoulder :-)
Yes Bedford is just a few tens of miles up the A1 road in the next county: a fine old English town.
Good luck with the open letter. Many in the New Labour parliamentary party did not support Blair’s actions over Kosovo and some half of them opposed his attack upon Iraq. In a couple of weeks we shall see how Labour supporters in the country reward Blair’s treachery. Local elections are held on 1 May. Many erstwhile supporters have declared in the various media they will not vote again for the party until Blair is removed. We shall see.
Walter: I agree. War between sovereign states is evil and only ever possibly justified in my mind in self-defence when under attack - but even then still evil.
Blair was in a unique position to prevent the attack upon Serbia and possibly Iraq. We were entitled to expect this one time pacifist and CND marcher to act on principle. Instead we got warmongering, cluster bombs, DU ammunition and even a threat of a nuclear attack on Iraq along with the now infamous New Labour spin.
Nothing ever justifies the telling of lies to convince a reluctant electorate to support an unprovoked attack upon another sovereign state. Nothing ever justifies the deployment of cluster bomblets over civilian populations.
Peter Taylor
Herts/UK- Friday April 18, 2003 at 11:11 am
DennisThe people who make the interest on the paper loans are the ones who issue them, namely the Federal Reserve which is a consortium of private banks(shareholder banks like Chase, Morgan etc) and which is actually The Federal Reserve Banking system of the USA! They also underwrite US govt spending and the govt pays them back from the revenues it takes from the people by way of taxes etc. They print the money, lend it to the Govt and collect the interest and principal when due. In effect, they are the owners of the American government whose formal role is to appoint people like Greenspan to the Board. The catch is that they tell the Govt who to appoint instead of vice versa.
Look up Federal Reserve on Google and you'll get a real eye opener!
If they pull their money out the American government simply collapses as was the case when J P Morgan had to lend money to the Govt to bail the country out of bankruptcy.
They got rid of the gold standard as it placed limits on their lending capacity and that's why the whole bank system is not worth the paper its money is printed on. There's just no asset backing to the currency by way of gold or other reserves. It's all just paper and electronic transactions. Not to mention that the amount of gold sold on the stock exchanges is about 4-5 times more than physically exists. If the "owners" of the gold wanted delivery of it, 3 out of 4 wouldn't be able to take delivery because it just ISN'T there to be delivered. It does not exist! It's smoke and mirror stuff. The public are more and more in hock to the real owners, to the financiers who print the money to supply the loans and who hold mortgages over the assets purchased through the loans. Every now and then they cash in their chips and we all end up with recessionary flu, bankruptcies and similar. Then when prices crash they go back in at bargain prices until they regenerate the production cycles and booms.
It's a rough explanation but I'm sure you get the idea.
David
Australia- Friday April 18, 2003 at 11:46 am
PeterSometimes the truth never comes out. I'm sure a lot of people still think, and history still teaches that the mediaeval crusades were for religious, noble reasons. How else do the kings and nobles get the peasants to die for their masters' interests? It's the oldest trick in the book and the modern day peasants still fall for it. Just give them a noble cause and they'll kill for it and die for it, no problem.
Blair knows the spiel, he was born and bred for it. And maybe one day he'll pay for it as well.
David
Australia- Friday April 18, 2003 at 5:40 pm
Does anybody have any information about which (if any) group of paramilitary volunteers Vuk Draskovic was associated with during the Croatian and Bosnian wars?
Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States- Friday April 18, 2003 at 8:49 pm
AndyIf my memory serves me correctly, Draskovic was best mates with Seselj until they had a MASSIVE falling out. You might check that angle out.
David
Australia- Friday April 18, 2003 at 10:33 pm
The 'trial' is suspended due to the Easter holidays until 28 April, and then again on 30 April (a Queen's day in Holland; is it not a confirmation that the local rules sometimes do apply to this institution after all and that it is not quite true that the host country has nothing to do with this international monster?).So, the cross-examination of the 'secretary' B-129 was already held in some smaller courtroom, without journalists and without transmission, and the recording of the cross-examination will be 'probably' shown to the journalists sometime next week (which means, while the proceeding is adjourned), as our press reports. Was the Prosecution so scared of what Milosevic might ask the woman that in addition to 'technical problems' also the recording will not be available to the general public?
To get the taste of what it's like to live here trying to do something so ordinary as to chat on the Internet during this current state of emergency, here's the translation of a small article from POLITIKA:
"From the Valjevo Municipal Court - HE MOCKED THE STATE ON THE INTERNET - Valjevo, 9 April - We found today from the Investigating Judge of the Valjevo Municipal Court, Mile Aleksic, that on the recommendation of the Municipal Public Prosecutor of Valjevo he ordered Mile Peric (45), a Professional Associate with the Research Institute PETNICA near Valjevo, to be remanded in custody for 8 days. In the words of Aleksic, Peric is under reasonable suspicion of having committed the offence of harming the reputation of the Republic of Serbia and the personalities holding responsible public functions. During the interrogation, he stated that he did mail posts to a site, using it to present his ethical and political beliefs and to express his attitude relating to the political and social reality of our country, this being his own personal literary criticism of the society. On the open Internet page, Peric spoke with disdain and affront about the State of Serbia, the introduction of the state of emergency, the late Prime Minister Zoran Djindjic, the DOS government and other current issues and happenings in Serbia and the whole country. He particularly spoke about the banning of TV MARS from Valjevo, of which he himself used to be the editor once, closed for its inappropriate behaviour during the days of mourning in Serbia on account of the assassination of the Prime Minister Zoran Djindjic."
Chilling! My own posts more than qualify for the same treatment. And note the language. These 'democratic' puppets clearly regressed into the murky past of commissars. Compared to them, Milosevic was progressive and enlightened.
Vera Martinovic
Belgrade
Yugoslavia- Saturday April 19, 2003 at 7:02 am
Once one spring time, years after having left my Southern Iberian homeland I came to visit my family. There was in the country in those days also some form of state of emergency, somewhat of a diluted strength but giving the police more power than is desirable to sleep soundly at night. My younger brother, at the time a student, did not come home for several days and we did not have news from him. We were all worried. My father was fearful, mother worried and I wondering what to do next. After several days at last he came home albeit in the company of several suit dressed gentlemen They took my father aside and delivered to him their ritual sermon about youth, students and corrupting foreign ideas so dangerous for the nation. Then they went and checked my brother's room, taken aghast by the number of books in a foreign language, French as it was one of the agents, took one book by Stendahl, LE ROUGE ET LE NOIR and with great solemnity said: "I don't understand Russian but this book does not belong here" and took it away.
My brother's crime? Not much really some anti American, anti Vietnam war comments with another student. This little state of emergency lasted 39 years and was financed mostly but consistently by American largesse. It cost money to keep Russian books out of young students bookshelves. No wonder Baghdad's library was burn undisturbed by the Storm Troopers, a.k.a US Marines. Halliburton's education division will educate the children of the Caliph. The poor fools!
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La- Saturday April 19, 2003 at 7:16 am
Europe, since American and the Saxon Imperial Order claims to emanate from Europe and its obsession with civilization, Europe was in the dark Age, literally, when Baghdad had 8 miles of public lighten streets at the same time.
And the barbaric Muslims were busily translating from Hebrew and Greek all the ancient philosophers, poets, historians, mathematicians, doctors, a whole civilization just for the sake of culture and natural desire for knowledge, the legions of translators funded by public (what a crime!) money while the European sank into the abyss of ignorance and religious intolerance, pockets of which you still find in areas of North America and selected corners of Europe and in the remand of the Saxon Empire.
Oh, Yank the poet will say, please teach me a lesson!
Gogol Charlamgne
Shangri-La- Saturday April 19, 2003 at 11:33 am
JP The reconstruction of Iraq by American Corporate interests could be one of the greatest redistributions of wealth in history. The billions in untendered contracts come from the taxpayers in the U.S. & from taxpayers of the contribution countries of the UN. That is, the wealth of all the small taxpayers of most of the world is mostly going directly to American Corporations. Lynne
Lynne Skyes
Victoria
BC, Canada- Saturday April 19, 2003 at 11:43 am
PBS, with Islamists money and 'liberals' is attempting to reinvent the human experience. Re recent 'documentaries' on the fall of Yugoslavia and Muslim 'history'. Some want others to swallow it hook line and sinker. No thanks.On the level of major accomplishments, Muslims have contributed zilch. Translating from Greek/Hebrew into Arabic was a waste of time for a population raised to fight and inspired by praying to a stone. City streets lit with flares may be novel, but a loser. PBS made a big deal out of Arabs 'inventing' the chair, woodworking etc. Anyone that ever sat on a stump, and took it home had a chair. And you see Bin Laden sitting in the dirt, sharing a pot of 'stewed goat', with not a utensil in sight.
It's hard to say what the Arabs or Persians would have accomplished had they not been sat on by Islamists. We do know however what was accomplished in the western world when Greek and Hebrew were translated into the 'romantic' languages.
Why didn't the Islamists translate the 'hieroglyphics' of the Egyptians? It took a 'bloke' to decipher it, and we still can't figure out how the Pyramids were built.
There are 'pockets' on intolerance in the 'west' but only 'pockets' of tolerance in the ME. The Caliphs in their heyday imported 'childred' to educate and lead their armies. But now we'll educate them right where they are to throw off the harem seekers. The first order of businness is 'let there be light'.
J P
USA.Wis- Saturday April 19, 2003 at 11:55 am
LSThe $68 billion approved by congress is all US money, ie my taxes. I certainly hope that it's spent efficiently and not just funneled through 'France' for a 'rake off'. I'd like some of it funneled through Serbia.
If 'France/Germany contributes, who do you think they would get to do 'work'?
Funneling money through the UN would be a day late and a loser.
J P
USA.Wis- Saturday April 19, 2003 at 1:31 pm
Mr. J.P from WisconsinThis is from today’s New York Times
April 19, 2003 Sunnis and Shiites Unite to Protest U.S. and Hussein By JOHN KIFNER and CRAIG S. SMITH
BAGHDAD, Iraq, April 18 - The struggle for power in postwar Iraq came sharply into focus today as Shiite and Sunni Muslims united in a demonstration that railed against both the United States and Saddam Hussein, while an Iraqi exile backed by the Pentagon emerged from well-guarded seclusion in an exclusive club to stake a claim to a role in Iraq's future.
How do you interpret such reaction of the majority of people of Iraq? Sunni are 60%, Shia are 20% only Kurds are left as supporting US “invasion”.
Do you believe that this $66 million benevolence will help sway these people?
D. Jovanovic
USA- Saturday April 19, 2003 at 2:16 pm
Since the occurrence of 9/11 there have been many changes in the United States.
Ask any anti war protestor and they will tell you what happens when they dare to speak out against “the war.” Susan Sarandon and Tim Robbins who also spoke out against the bombing of Kosovo, and were left unmarked by the “right” in this country for it, are now being maligned by the media owned and controlled by the “right.” I know what Vera means when she says, “chilling.”
The following is from the “Edward R. Murrow” website.
*************** Edward R. Murrow was my last hero. When this nation was drowning in cowardice and demagoguery, it was Murrow who hurled the spear at the terror. The spear was his See It Now television broadcast on Senator Joe McCarthy.
Murrow did not kill off McCarthy or McCarthyism, but he helped halt America's incredible slide toward a native brand of fascism. Unbelievable. You had to live through the times to know how fearful -- indeed, terrorized -- people were about speaking their minds. The cold war with Russia, the threat of a hot war with China, security programs and loyalty oaths -- all had cowed the citizens of the most powerful nation on earth into keeping their minds closed and their mouths shut. The Senate of the United States. in order not to appear Red, chose to be yellow. It was the Age of McCarthyism. Edward R. Murrow helped bring it to an end.
Joseph Wershaba, Journalist
END OF QUOTE.
Thank God for all the anti war protestors, “Hollywood crowd,” and all of the people who have the heart and courage to say “no” to the warmongers. 9/11 had nothing to do with Iraq’s oil.
I read where one of the muslim clerics said, “we do not want a democracy that allows us to say what we think, but does not give us any say over our destiny.” Well said......
Kathryn Love
SJC
CA- Saturday April 19, 2003 at 6:30 pm
DJI don't know how many it will sway. It may need to be done in combination with 'martial law'.
The USSR controlled the '*stans' for 70+ years and running, given Chechnya is now up for grabs. It shouldn't take us more than half that. I believe W when he says we'll win no matter how long it takes. Granted, massive deprograming is required.
My problem is the 'peace marchers' electing another 'liberal leader' in which case we'll all go down the 'drain'.
KL
The fanatic Muslim clerics will not be allowed to determine their destiny, and ours. we know where that was going. To the year 450 by their calculations. The Muslim clerics evidently all don't know they are losing phase one of this 'war'. It may be they need a little more hammering.
J P
USA.Wis- Saturday April 19, 2003 at 6:37 pm
test
J P
USA.Wis- Saturday April 19, 2003 at 7:19 pm
Mr. JP, “Massive reprogramming” can not be achieved with peaceful democratic means. You obviously have not lived under communism or during McCarthy era in the US. I have. I came to the US just at the end of the latter. I think it is naïve to hope that we have some other magic formula other than the brutal terror with which to accomplish this “reprogramming” Perhaps if you study some of the communist methods, you might reconsider your recipe?
D. Jovanovic
USA- Saturday April 19, 2003 at 7:43 pm
Methinks it's most of the Yanks, especially the Fox, CNN, and "Free"Republic afficionados and for certain those in the US foreign policy establishment, for sure, who need the de-programming.Not much reading of the articles at the Project for the New American Fascism web-site makes that pretty clear.
Dennis Revell
USA- Saturday April 19, 2003 at 8:45 pm
If there is any consolation in witnessing predictions fulfilled, then it is indeed most satisfying to watch Washington's former "allies" in the barbaric destruction of Yugoslavia sucking on their thumbs and wondering what hope, if any, remains for the UN, or the EU, as a check on American imperial and military power. "Old Europe" powers France and Germany, in particular, are finding it difficult to deal with the reality that the UN only exists as an arm of the US government. What's even harder for them to admit is that their unprincipled collaboration in the criminal aggression against Yugoslavia effectively sealed the fate of the UN as such. It seems that the majority of NATO members, and not just France and Germany, deluded themselves into believing that their collaboration in criminal aggression forced the creation of the High Commission in Bosnia and UNMIK in Kosovo, and that these offices were the only means of preventing those territories from becoming de facto satellites of the US.
A typical example of this self-delusion is quite apparent in an article featured on the website of Germany's state propaganda service, Deutsche Welle. In the ridiculous propaganda spiel, "Why Germany Voted 'Yes' To Invade Yugoslavia But 'No' To Iraq", there is no effort to seriously examine the issues, but only to defend the German government's position. The floor first goes to an SDP (Chancellor Schroeder's party) spokesperson who has the audacity to claim all the old propaganda about "mass graves" and "genocide" was true. And while this article was written a full month before UNMIK - currently headed by a German political hack - most recently admitted that this was all of this propaganda was a NATO fabrication, previous UN officials and forensic investigators had already made this clear several years ago, indeed only weeks after starting their work in 1999. The German government and Deutsche Welle are well aware of this, and yet they continue to lie.
The article then turns to the exclusive views of one German bureaucrat cum propagandist, Günther Joetze, who goes on to defend the policy of bombing foreign states to bring them up to what he calls "humanitarian and democratic standards". He qualifies his support by insisting that such a policy can only work in certain cases, such as Serbia, but not Iraq. He does not indicate whether this has anything to do with the fact Serbia was a multi-party democracy under Milosevic, while Iraq was a totalitarian one-party state under Sadaam, nor does this unpleasant fact appear to interest him at all.
The article then has Jotze hastily defend the strategy of checking the hegemon from within, as well as make the claim that the bombing of Serbia was a legitimate response to the "democratic will" of the German people. Or in other words, the state is obligated to aggression against foreign nations whenever the population is favorably disposed. Interpreted correctly, Jotze's view is that most of Hitler's invasions were justifed in this context.
It's too bad that articles like this are too often brushed aside as mere opinion pieces when in fact they serve as more serious indicators of the bankruptcy of German foreign policy. Nuff said.
Nico Tarzanovic
CAN- Saturday April 19, 2003 at 8:51 pm
The majority of international law experts say that the US, Britain and Australia are acting in breach of global legal instruments in attacking Iraq without a United Nations resolution, and risk facing serious criminal charges.
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La- Saturday April 19, 2003 at 9:10 pm
There are too many Muslims in this world with arms and legs, not to mention heads, right JP?What a bunch of useless people they are having contributed "zilch by way of major achievements"! What a waste of space they must be. I can't understand why you don't just simply eliminate rather than deprogram such human effluent? Obviously you have the power and you have the moral right on your side to determine their future. Might is right, especially when it follows God's given word and rectitude, right?
Get a clue, JP, and may the blessed Jesus himself also bathe you in his holy light, hopefully a laser guided one (I'm so over those primitive torch ones).
David
Australia- Saturday April 19, 2003 at 9:17 pm
What an excuse for a civilised human being!
David
Australia- Saturday April 19, 2003 at 10:10 pm
Tsk, tsk mate. Seems like the Iraqis in and more so abroad are celebrating Saddams' toppling. Once we get open news and education, things will change. Oh, there may be 'many' incorrigibles that will have to be 'ferreted out'.I'm all for the 'downtrodded'. How about when the French(?) had to go in a few years back to clear Mecca of Iranian 'terrorists' during the Haig(?). They didn't have a 'gittmo' then and probably got a bullet in the head or deheaded. Any collateral damage, did you complain, was it civilized?
J P
USA.Wis- Saturday April 19, 2003 at 11:25 pm
Andy, Vuk Draskovic and his party SPO [Srpski pokret obnove = Serbian Renewal Movement] gradually became a laughing stock in local politics for changing their political standing more frequently than some of them changed their shirts. Now, they are almost marginalized, undoubtedly the aforesaid behaviour contributed to that. And yes, almost all one-time opposition parties had their own paramilitaries in civil wars; the SPO's claim to fame was called Srpska garda = Serbian Guard, with its famous Commander Djordje Bozinovic - Giska, who was killed on the front near Gospic (CRO). He was a former mobster as well, so Vuk Draskovic had its fair share of crime connections like all others. To name just two more: Branislav Matic - Beli, a friend of Giska, a mobster who financed both SPO and the Serbian Guard, killed in August 1991; Aleksandar Knezevic - Knele, a friend of Giska, a mobster who was the personal bodyguard to Vuk Draskovic, killed in Hotel HYATT in 1993. This is all common knowledge, but people tend to conveniently forget. And yes, Vuk Draskovic and Vojislav Seselj used to be not only friends, but best men and political allies in the beginning, but Seselj, by far smarter and more capable, quickly realized the total lack of political nerve in Vuk. If you want to further search into the background of SPO, check the article in FreeSerbia titled 'Serbian Renewal Movement', dated 22 Aug. 1999 (http://www.xs4all.nl/~freeserb/politics/e-spo.html).I was afraid that my personal view of the US school system as limited to national history/geography was too harsh and prejudiced. Reading the posts of J.P. from Wisconsin I found out that my view was too lenient on the said system. Please, J.P., stop embarrassing yourself by demonstrating the depths of your ignorance. I find it hard to believe that someone dares to write about the Arab contribution to the world heritage without being aware of the 'trifles' such as mathematics and surgery, to mention just the most obvious. The level of argument using 'Muslims have contributed zilch' and 'sitting in the dirt, sharing a pot of stewed goat, with not a utensil in sight' could be nicely turned around on you. How about your own low-class white trash/black/spick/non-resident GIs (judging by those killed, wounded and captured, these must prevail in the US military), what kind of the country they represent and in which clapboard shacks/trailers they live and what is their education? How do you like them apples?! As the kind Iraqi doctor who treated the famous Jessica from the 'Saving Private Lynch' tale said: 'she was uneducated, although a nice girl'.
Vera Martinovic
Belgrade
Yugoslavia- Saturday April 19, 2003 at 11:31 pm
Maybe she too was from Wisconsin?
- Friday April 18, 2003 at 11:11 am