MILOSEVIC TRIAL DISCUSSION ARCHIVE

Is Slobodan Milosevic getting a fair trial?
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• discussion archive

• Sunday April 20, 2003 at 2:50 am
  It has been suggested that Jessica Lynch was a fabricated preplanned PR stunt, designed to raise troop moral. In support of that claim it is noted that someone purchased the jessicalynch.org domain name, on March 17th, two days before March 19th, when Bush effectively declared war on Iraq, and 4 days before war began on March 21st, 2003. It has also been suggested that Jessica Lynch was never one of those reported missing or captured. Perhaps all coincidence, but perhaps not.
  
  Ian Davis
  Waterloo
  Ontario Canada

• Sunday April 20, 2003 at 6:55 am
  Kathryn Love Where was Susan Sarandon and the Hollywood left when Clinton bombed Yugoslavia on behalf of fascist and Islamic extremist? That's right. They were cheering him on, throwing fund raisers and smearing any and all attempt to expose his sorted past. Those fools don't have a clue about any of these issues and only 'act' like they do in and attempt to further their own self interest. Don't expect me to feel sorry for them when their 'convictions' come back to bite them on their backsides. Ever read the book "Compromised: Clinton, Bush and the CIA"? These cats are laughing at us in the 'smoke filled rooms'.
  
  Joel Aksamit
  Missouri

• Sunday April 20, 2003 at 10:47 am
  Joel Aksamit:

  If you knew what you were talking about you would know that Susan Sarandon and Tim Robbins both protested the bombing of Kosovo. If you had read my post carefully you would have known this.Do you feel sorry for others who protested against the war and are being threatened?

  Where were you when Clinton bombed Kosovo? What did you do to help the Serbs? Did you shrink like so many others?

  I am getting really fed up with those who complain about the celebreties who did or did not protest the bombing of Serbia when they did absolutely NOTHING to help Serbia.I almost begged people who would not move a muscle.

  Do not blame everyone else for what you yourself did not do.

  I do not ask you to feel sorry for anyone but our country that is being turned into another MacCarthy era.

  I would ask you how you feel about the money grabbing Bob Dole who pleaded with Clinton from day one to bomb Serbia proper.

  You are only on this forum to bad mouth Clinton because he is a Democrat.. What is it? Why are you so afraid of Cllinton? He is gone. GET OVER IT.

  If you are a true American try to think about where this country is headed.

  
  
  Kathryn Love
  SJC
  USA

• Sunday April 20, 2003 at 11:00 am
  Vera:

  “Spick” is an ugly name to describe the hispanic people.I was very sorry to see that you used that term to describe them. Your post was racist.

  I am sorry that you described the US men and women in a way that degraded you as well as them. If these men and women live in shacks and trailer parks, what fault of it is theirs? Just as you would defend the JAL I will defend these men and women who were there only to do their job.

  The doctor called Jessica uneducated only because she was young and did not receive higher education. He also appeared to have fallen in love with her when he was sad to think he might never see her again.

  I hate snobbery from where ever it comes.

  
  
  Kathryn Love
  SJC
  USA

• Sunday April 20, 2003 at 11:20 am
  

  I have to warn anyone attemtpting to adquire an eduction by watching corporate cartels supported PBS, a.k.a. Pbublic Broadcasting System, but I challenge PBS to elghten the American public about Islam and Arab civilisation with aprogram about IBN KHALDUN who during the 14 century his work had:

  Ibn Khaldun's chief contribution lies in philosophy of history and sociology. He sought to write a world history preambled by a first volume aimed at an analysis of historical events. This volume, commonly known as Muqaddimah or 'Prolegomena', was based on Ibn Khaldun's unique approach and original contribution and became a masterpiece in literature on philosophy of history and sociology. The chief concern of this monumental work was to identify psychological, economic, environmental and social facts that contribute to the advancement of human civilization and the currents of history. In this context, he analysed the dynamics of group relationships and showed how group feelings, al-'Asabiyya,give rise to the ascent of a new civilisation and political power and how, later on, its diffusion into a more general civilization invites the advent of a still new 'Asabiyya in its pristine form. He identified an almost rhythmic repetition of rise and fall in human civilization, and analysed factors contributing to it. His contribution to history is marked by the fact that, unlike most earlier writers interpreting history largely in a political context, he emphasised environmental, sociological, psychological and economic factors governing the apparent events. This revolutionised the science of history and also laid the foundation of Umraniyat (Sociology).

  
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Shangri-La

• Sunday April 20, 2003 at 2:36 pm
  Kathryn Love:

  Kathryn, absolutely fair points about the US barking right's "opposition" to the bombing of Yugoslavia, which was solely on the basis that anything Clinton did was bad, and to be used to attack him. Don't get me wrong, I think Yugoslavia made him just as much a War-Criminal as Afghanistan and Iraq have made Bush II.

  I made these points at length with regard to the "Free"Repugnant web-site a long time ago, in order to deter Jari from placing too much reliance on citing them, as he appeared to be doing. It was a genuine attempt to help him and prevent him from being led astray, and a successful one, as he checked them out further, and acknowledged that this was the case.

  In my view, former Yugoslavs ;-) should exercise caution concerning their new-found "friends" from the American right. There were more than enough of those rooting for the bombing of Yugoslavia that it would have happened anyway, had their been a wholly Republican Administration in place. Albanian-American Terrorist-In-Chief, Joe DioGuardi, and his Albanian-American "Civic" League would merely have concentrated more of their lobbying efforts on Republicans, in order to get the USAF rented out as the KLA's very own airforce.

  With regard to Vera's apparent racist use of the word "spic", please be aware that this may be a simple language problem. Vera's English is excellent, but I suggest that in her mode of speaking there could be purely a cultural misunderstanding. Those four letters, are after all, merely a foreshortening of the word HiSPanIC, which itself is perfectly acceptable. A bit, perhaps, like when Jackie Chan followed Chris Tucker into the black bar in the movie "Rush Hour", hears him say "hello, negro" to someone, and then proceeds to do the same himself. Cue bar-room brawl of Wild-West proportions.

  Apart from that, in my view, Vera is absolutely correct in her characterisation of the general "educational" level in the USA, and in particular, those at lower levels in the US military.

  Here's part of a "conversation" I had, in "another place" a while ago with an NRI (Non Resident Indian). I have italicised the portions most relevant to Vera's points:-

  Best thing they (NRIs) can do to thwart the US global hegemony thing is for "NRIs" to stop expending their no doubt relatively well rewarded talents in the US, return to India and pay back through work the expense of the education to the state of India, rather than donating it to the US; which is, of course, therefore itself quite happy to have the educational system from Hell, as it can so easily steal the talent produced by and at the expense of foreign countries.

  This is just another face of the US hegemony you express a desire to escape from.

  ...

  and:

  The US is a terrific sponge, absorbing as it does expensively and well trained talent from around the world, not just India. India is probably the main problem in this regard, however, being as it is, and pardon me for saying this, the most technologically advanced and best educated English speaking "third-world" country on the planet (excuse the "third-world" part!).

  A visit to Las Vegas, the Grand Canyon, etc, relatively cheap housing and land (compared to most other Western countries), cheap petrol (gas), large unaccustomed automobiles, a few months or years of exposure to the light-weight distorted mainstream media pap, the likes of CNN, Fox, MSNBC and so on, complete the fairy-tale absorption.

  A vicious cycle. An absorption that contributes to US economic well-being, and US appropriation of also foreign (non-US) material resources (theft, really), which in turn contributes even more to US economic well-being; attracting yet more "absorbees" ... ad infinitum ... . All this, of course, to the extreme detriment of those foreign countries involved, whether in terms of loss of trained personnel or ripped-off natural resources.

  And to be fair, accepting that Indians are basically pretty much like any other group of people, then it has to be accepted that they're just going to have about an equal proportion of selfish [mild expletive ;-)] in their 'ranks', educated or otherwise, who will be quite happy paying exhorbitantly through the nose for the education of their US resident kids as well as their health-care, without consideration for a moment of the fact that but for their Indian provided education and health-care, none of this over-consuming milk-and-honey living would be possible.

  All of which enables the US to save vast amounts of money it would otherwise have to spend creating it's own decent educational system; and simultaneously provides it with a largely uneducated, and therefore compliant easily led (as in by the nose) mass of people to follow Pavlov-dog like the latest tawdry, if not criminal, foreign policy insanity; and the use of that same compliant undereducated mass as potential cannon-fodder in the US's military.

  You've got to feel sorry for them in a way:-

  "[mild expletive meaning "poor";-)] education? [Ditto mild expletive] employment prospects? Poor? JOIN THE US MILITARY! We'll house, feed, train you, and give you that medical coverage you couldn't afford and with a bit of luck, you won't get killed or maimed on one of our various foreign policy misadventures".

  GO ARMY!

  It's one hell of a paradigm the US has worked out ... or for most of the rest of the world, India especially, a paradigm of hell ...

  ... positive responses received from this particular and other NRIs.

  ... and don't we know what troubles other diasporas have caused ...
  
  Dennis Revell
  USA

• Sunday April 20, 2003 at 2:46 pm
  David (et alia):

  Yea, speaking of body parts, and it being worth an Iraqi's arms and legs to be "liberated" by the "coalition" (as in "Coalition of the Killing"), if it wasn't so darned gruesome and criminal, I'd be laughing my head off, to mention just another body part.

  Good repartee, though.
  
  Dennis Revell
  USA

• Sunday April 20, 2003 at 2:49 pm
  Yesterday, on the book writers interview program on TV I first watched Watson discuss his book and answer questions and little bit later I watched the writer of the book “American Empire”. Unfortunately I got on a tail end of the program.

  I found his view very acceptable and very pragmatic. He also said that the aggressive militaristic policy in foreign affairs started with Clinton, which I agree. He expressed also many other points of view which I also agreed with.

  I wonder whether anybody knows whether he is of Serbian origin? His biography on the web does not mention
  
  D. Jovanovic
  USA

• Sunday April 20, 2003 at 2:51 pm
  My Godd, I forgot to say, his name is Andrew Bacevich and he is a professor of political science at the Boston University.
  
  D Jovanovic
  USA

• Sunday April 20, 2003 at 2:59 pm
  Speaking of books: Bill O'Reilly's got one at the top of the "Paperback's Best Seller" list. The book's called:

  "NO SPIN ZONE

  ... there are no words ...
  
  Dennis Revell
  USA

• Sunday April 20, 2003 at 3:04 pm
  
  
  HTML Correction
  Hopefully

• Sunday April 20, 2003 at 3:05 pm
  
  Lessons in unprincipled pragmatism

  Rory Bremner, political satirist and impersonator, spoke on today’s BBC ‘Desert Island Discs’ programme. He related an event that is character revealing.

  During Labour’s election campaign in 1997, out of the blue, Cherie Blair invited Bremner round for tennis. Bremner had been very successful in satirising the Conservative Prime Minister of the day, John Major, and was being invited to join the New Labour election campaign. Realising the implications of the offer Bremner told the Blairs that if they came to power he would have to turn his satire in their direction: Whereupon he claims Blair replied: “How does ‘Lord Bremner’ sound”. The veracity of this may be confirmed by listening to BBC Radio 4 at 9am BST next Friday when the programme will be repeated.

  Do the words: ‘false pretences, deception, bribery, abuse of privilege’ ring any bells? Is this the selective ‘morality’ of those who glibly set in motion the processes that tear the lives and limbs from young children and murder their mothers for bogus reasons?

  Blair stomps around the world stage imposing - with US power - his ‘truth and moral certitude’ on others because he knows he is “right” and this he does in our so-called democracy in spite of the wishes of the majority of his party. But the truth - that is where the words correspond with the facts rather than Blair’s spin - is gradually being exposed. Compare for example Blair’s words on ethnic cleansing in Kosovo with those in this letter by Norman F Ness in The Washington Times yesterday.

  In 1961, when Tito's Albanian communists ruled Kosovo, the percentage of Serbs living in Kosovo was 27 percent, while Albanians numbered 67 percent. In 1991, the Serbian population had been reduced to only 11 percent, while Albanians had increased to 82 percent. This should prompt the question: Who was being ethnically cleansed and by whom? Answering this question might have prevented the U.S.-led NATO intervention in Kosovo that has wreaked so much havoc.

  It is of interest to compare Britain’s troubles in Northern Ireland at the end of the twentieth century with those of the Serbs in Kosovo. The casualties are comparable in number but events in Kosovo occurred over a much shorter timescale because of the greater intensity of the KLA attacks.

  There are two particular atrocities by British forces still the subject of investigations decades after these events; because of cover-ups and obstructions: ‘Bloody Sunday’ when 14 unarmed Civil Rights marchers were shot dead by British soldiers and a ‘Campaign to Murder’ IRA suspects in which the British army and police colluded with Loyalist paramilitaries. The Irish Catholics in Northern Ireland were treated worse than the Kosovo Albanians. The Irish Catholics did not have even a right to vote in local elections - hence their march for civil rights. There is another significant difference. England or later Britain had invaded Ireland’s sovereign territory throughout the last millennium annexing six counties in the north just after WW1. In Kosovo, according to the letter above and other sources, Albanians have been infiltrating Serbia’s sovereign province of Kosovo throughout the past millennium.

  Back to numbers: Of the some 3,000 killed in Northern Ireland during the more recent troubles some 2,000 were the Catholic victims of British regular and paramilitary forces. Discounting the 500 killed by Nato’s bombs - in Kosovo alone - of the some 4,000 killed in Kosovo’s recent troubles less than 2,000 were the victims of Serbia’s regular and paramilitary forces: According to analysis based on UNMIK’s recent report by Baraybar.

  A number of questions arise from these recently revealed truths: First. If, as there was, no question of Britain being attacked by foreign powers and its Leaders subjected to trial for killing some 2,000 Irish Catholics while quelling a recent terror campaign in Northern Ireland why has Serbia and its Leaders been picked out for such treatment?

  Second. Is it legitimate for extremists within a foreign minority ethnic group - within a province of a sovereign state - to decide they are going to convert that region, by force of terror, to their own language and culture on the basis that they are a majority population in that region: And then to drive out those subjects of the overall majority population and other minorities? Is it legitimate for foreign powers to prevent that sovereign state from using its security forces to prevent such a catastrophe? If the example of Kosovo is to stand then it is a recipe for worldwide anarchy: Hispanics in Texas, Muslims in West Yorkshire …

  Third. Baraybar’s recent UNMIK report on mispers in Kosovo gives a measure of the fairness of this so called court of justice the ICTY: May, Milosevic’s trial judge, accepted statistician Patrick Ball’s obviously flawed two days of testimony commissioned by friends of the court - that the Serbs had slaughtered 10,356 Kosovars. There are good reasons described above why this evidence should have been dismissed at its presentation. The inference of the recent UNMIK statement that after four years of searching less than 2,000 Kosovar bodies have been found which may possibly be the victims of Serb security forces and militia. This evidence from a sister UN body contradicts and destroys Ball’s so called ‘scientific proof’. Shall we now at last hear the ICTY - a so-called court of justice - admit this fact?
  
  Peter Taylor
  Herts/UK

• Sunday April 20, 2003 at 3:16 pm
  Peter:

  What's a "misper"?
  
  Dennis Revell
  USA

• Sunday April 20, 2003 at 3:17 pm
  Oops, ferget it, "missing persons", right.
  
  Dennis Revell
  USA

• Monday April 21, 2003 at 1:51 am
  "Get OVER it?"

  Get OVER it??

  Clinton may be gone, but I'm not going to ever get over what he did. Nor the fact that it was MOSTLY Democrats that backed him -- and fiercely. I just wish he was REALLY gone. Like behind bars forever gone...
  
  Anna P
  California

• Monday April 21, 2003 at 2:01 am
  Dennis,

  Thanks for your post from last Thursday, April 17, 8:35pm (sorry, I just come back form holidays).

  >

  >Pasha Ponomarenko: Friday April 11, 2003 at 7:11 am

  ... Serbs proceeded to massacre thousands of Srebrenica's Muslim inhabitants?

  Where'd d'ya get that gem from? CNN?... etc

  >

  I appreciate your irony ;-))), but read my message you cited above more carefully please (as well as one before it): it's all about Naser Oric's capture and not about twisting the truth by BBC (did not you see www-address provided?).

  I also pointed at somewhat interesting title for this material "NATO warns Karadzic and Mladic", which says nothing about Oric himself. It looks like Karadzic and Mladic were fighting on the same side as Oric, and his arrest is a strong warning for them.

  Lack of comments on this obvoiusly important and relevant to this forum matter looks strange for me... :-(

  Cheers!
  
  Pasha Ponomarenko
  Australia

• Monday April 21, 2003 at 4:40 am
  
  More on Blair’s dishonesty

  "We must make clear to the Germans that the wrong for which their leaders are on trial is not that they lost the war, but that they started it. And we must not allow ourselves to be drawn into a trial of the causes of the war, for our position is that no grievances or policies will justify resort to aggressive war. It is utterly renounced and condemned as an instrument of policy."

  ”This declaration was made by U.S. Supreme Court Justice Samuel L. Jackson, America's senior representative at the 1945 Nuremberg war crimes trials, and the tribunal's chief prosecutor.” Eric Margolis, The Toronto Sun 20 April 2003

  
  
  Peter Taylor
  Herts/UK

• Monday April 21, 2003 at 8:13 am
  K Love - I've been reading this forum for about a year now without posting. I have agreed with much of what you say, however it has become obvious that you are on a mission to revise history to match your liberal bent. If the liberal left protested the wars in the Balkans they did so very quietly while defending Clinton like a pack of wolves. You talk about McCarthyism. These cats lied and smeared anyone who question their President at this time. As for you ascertion that I am only here to bash Clinton, this is a classic tactic of the left, divert attention from the debate and attack the messenger with unfounded statements. The book I mentioned was an indictment of both Bush and Clinton and shows that both horses are owned by the same stable. Some much for your theory. Buy the way what the heck does Bob Dole have to do with this? Another diversion perhaps?
  
  Joel Aksamit
  Mo USA

• Monday April 21, 2003 at 9:27 am
  I wish you guys would get off this Democrat/Republican bashing game. The Republicans didn't bomb YU. The Democrats did. The Democrats didn't bomb Iraq. The Republicans did.

  Both parties answer to the same masters, who incidentally ARE NOT the people of the USA. Both parties will fulfill whatever the agenda of the day is, and the current one is the New American Century which started at the end of the Cold War. Clinton's cigars and George W's literacy levels are just distractions.
  
  David
  Australia

• Monday April 21, 2003 at 10:42 am
  Vera and David,

  Thank you for the information on Draskovic and the "Serbian Guard."

  Do either of you know anything about a group of Serbian Guard members who in 1992 accused Draskovic and his wife of being engaged in illegal arms smuggling with a view to starting an armed conflict inside of Serbia itself?

  Draskovic's plan being to start a civil war inside of Serbia and to seize power by force?

  I see from reading old press reports that Draskovic was one who, in the early 1990s, liked to make threats of violence against his opposition.

  P.S. Kathryn,

  I don't think that Vera is a racist. I think she simply didn't realize that "Spick" was a racist slur.

  If she was racist against anybody you would think that she would be racist against Albanians, before she would be racist against Hispanics, but she dosen't refer to the Albanians as "Siptars" she calls them "Albanians."
  
  Andy Wilcoxson
  Washington, United States

• Monday April 21, 2003 at 10:57 am
  

  Vera wrote;

  The level of argument using 'Muslims have contributed zilch' and 'sitting in the dirt, sharing a pot of stewed goat, with not a utensil in sight' could be nicely turned around on you. How about your own low-class white trash/black/spick/non-resident GIs (judging by those killed, wounded and captured, these must prevail in the US military), what kind of the country they represent and in which clapboard shacks/trailers they live and what is their education? How do you like them apples?! As the kind Iraqi doctor who treated the famous Jessica from the 'Saving Private Lynch' tale said: 'she was uneducated, although a nice girl'.

  Are you in seeing the spec in the others eye missing her point? It is not Vera who is using the slurs, she is indeed reflecting on the culture which produces it and feels entitled to judge the others, in this case the Arabs and Muslims cultures.
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Shangri-La

• Monday April 21, 2003 at 12:48 pm
  Ana: My Mother and Aunt, both passed in the year 2000,they said the same things as you concerning Clinton. They also included a different politician, such as Dole, every other day. They cursed and screamed at the TV every day. There was not a day from morning until night that I was around them that I did not hear this.I do not know Serbian but I have an ear for nasty words and they were sure using them. I was always hoping that something good would happen for the Serbs that somehow there would be a miracle and everyone would wake up. That somehow their last days here would be different. I understand you because up until their last minute on earth they were concerned for the Serbian people.

  Dennis: I live in California. I know what the Mexicans think of “Spic.” I could tell you the great harm this word did to one Mexican family. You do not have to give me lessons on Hispanics I have been friends with them for many years.

  “White trash, blacks, spics?” This is not racist? Not only is the word “spics” racist the use of “white trash” and “blacks” smelled of racism.

  A very poor, poor, analogy of what if.....

  My grandfather, father, brother, sister, cousin, nephew, all served in the United States Military........all Serbian Americans and my husband’s brother who never came back served.I am very proud of all of them and those who do not like it....too bad. I will defend everyone of those servicemen. There are many Serbian Americans in the United States Military are they (uneducated/ white trash/living in trailer parks?). You attack them, you attack my family.

  There are people like that Joel guy who says he reads but does not post. How many of those who read and do not post could be Mexican or Black or lower income Whites?

  If I misinterpreted Vera’s post, and I cringed when I read it, then there were a lot of people sitting at the table where I was yesterday who also misinterpreted it. We were all disappointed because we do not want any sign of “racism” from the Serbs who were being accused of this for many years now.

  Gogle: Go to the PBS website and you will find they have a video regarding Islam. This was shown on television shortly after the WTC. It gave their history and it certainly portrayed a beautiful one. However, the film tried to soft pedal what the Ottoman Empire did.

  This is the first time there has been a leap from not liking the American government’s foreign policy, but liking the American people.... to smearing young men and women and who knows if they like what they are doing now. It is best to take your anger out on the government and their foreign policy, not on those people who are in the military for a chance of a “trade,” “education”, or just “security.” Many have left the military and gone on to higher education using the GI Bill.

  
  
  Kathryn Love
  SJC
  USA

• Monday April 21, 2003 at 1:03 pm
  One more comment for Gogol.

  What do you think the Serbs think of the US for bombing them? Why would Americans feel differently toward the Muslims for the WTC?

  Not all Americans are against Muslims believe me. I have told the initials from Wisconsin some time ago that he “painted a lovely picture of himself.” I doubt that there are many people in the US that have anything in common with the initials.

  There were many Americans who were in large anti war protest marches across this country. One was a Republican friend who is now afraid of Bush. Do you really think there are many people who believe Muslims are uneducated, ignorant , etc., etc.? We have here many Muslims who are practicing medicine in our hospitals, teaching in universities, working in research labs and some very successful in their own self run companies. No one really believes this rubbish but the initials.

  Do you think there are any Muslims who defend the Serbs?

  
  
  Kathryn Love
  SJC
  CUSA

• Monday April 21, 2003 at 1:13 pm
  There are some in the US military that are not nice people just like the JAL. You put a gun in the hand of someone and you do not know what will happen.

  Right now, I feel sorry for every man and woman who are now serving in Iraq.

  
  
  Kathryn Love
  SJC
  USA

• Monday April 21, 2003 at 1:48 pm
  

  It was the government, the state, the nation in its highest form which waged war against a sovereign nation Yugoslavia.

  There is no analogy between the activities of a state with all its legal machinery and the activities of an outlaw organization acting in the name of Islam.

  The fact is that racism and intolerance exists in many societies of this world and it is clear, at least to me, the US government exploits it to achieve for its very own goals, hence comments like the one's emanating from Wisconsin,

  The lower social classes are serving in the US armed forces. There is no national service in the US and when the patriotism so highly claimed by the US government was challenged by NY Senator Wrangle by asking to have the sons and daughters of the richest people of America contribute in the battle by serving alongside the poor in the army this was rejected as nonsense. The message is clear.
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Shangri-La

• Monday April 21, 2003 at 4:13 pm
  KL We have here many Muslims who are practicing medicine in our hospitals, teaching in universities ...
  Muslim Doctors are needed in Iraq and they should build a University and staff it They need them more than us. I have no animosity for the downtrodden Muslims, but I do have for a Culture than has keep them down for 1400 yrs. To play the 'racial card' against me or Uncle Sam won't work.

  GC.... culture (US) which produces it and feels entitled to judge the others, in this case the Arabs and Muslims cultures.
  Life is full of 'judgments', you makes them, you takes you pick. I'm all for making that a 'right' world wide.

  the activities of an outlaw organization acting in the name of Islam
  And that is the dilemma, the 'outlaws' are not outlawed but justified, supported and instructed by Islam .

  US government exploits it to achieve for its very own goals
  W's, hence the US's position is that Islam is a viable peace loving 'religion' . I fail to see the 'exploitation'. Fallaci takes the opposite position. I agree with Fallaci.

  NY Senator Wrangle ....rejected as nonsense
  Wrangle, the kook, wants to apply a quota system to filling available military slots in the middle of a war. Right now its a 'career' choice that is working well given the 'minuscule' size of military required. Bigger war, then maybe a draft. IMO, front line troops are 'black' and 'white' in proper proportion. Also, on average, 'marines' comes from a successful educated family background. But to keep harping on mute points is what ultra liberal Wrangle is about.
  
  J P
  USA.Wis

• Monday April 21, 2003 at 4:59 pm
  I completely agree with Gogol: A rogue organization with a grudge against the U.S. attacking the WTC and Clinton/Blair's sovereign governments attacking the country of Serbia ARE NOT SIMILAR EVENTS.

  And the reason there was not so much of a backlash against Muslims living in the U.S. is that the Bush government WENT OUT OF ITS WAY to publicize what good people most Muslims are. This is THE OPPOSITE of what the Clinton/Blair governments did, namely they DEMONIZED ALL SERBS. The day that Clinton or any one of his cronies bites the dust, I'm going to throw a party.

  One wonders why Bush is so gung-ho to protect Muslims or pretend to be their friend since it doesn't follow the usual pattern of attack, but no doubt money, power and influence have quite a lot to do with it, or the maintaining of same, anyway. I'm sure everyone recalls that the ONLY plane that rose to our skies just after the WTC attack was the one carrying the SAUDI FAMILY MEMBERS HOME.
  
  Anna P
  California

• Monday April 21, 2003 at 7:14 pm
  Kathryn:-

  Monday April 21, 2003 at 12:48 pm

  "Dennis: I live in California. I know what the Mexicans think of “Spic.”

  I know what they think of that word too. What's your point? I never implied that the word "Spic" was anything other than a racist slur. I merely postulated on the possibility of a cultural misunderstanding with regard to Vera's use of that word. Notice that she did not use the "N-word". Nor, as far as I can remember has she ever used racist terms in regard to all those people of Albanian origin.

  "I could tell you the great harm this word did to one Mexican family. You do not have to give me lessons on Hispanics ... "

  Well, I believe your need for "lessons" in that regard now becomes debateable, given your vehement stringent response to my post, which was merely an attempt to pour oil (not Iraqi oil - only Americans can get at that now) on waters that may not need to have been troubled.

  As if there isn't enough real racism in the World, without looking for it where in all probability, it is not.

  "“White trash, blacks, spics?” This is not racist? Not only is the word “spics” racist the use of “white trash” and “blacks” smelled of racism."

  Indeed, of that trio, ONLY one is racist: the foreshortening of the word Hispanic. The term "black is in no way racist, that is how most of the World refers to members of the negro race, without offence. You might argue that the PC reference should be "African Americans". I hope you would not, as that would indicate a depressing parochialism on your part. Most of the World's negroes are, of course, not Americans.

  To say that the reference "blacks "smells of racism" is complete nonsense.

  The term "white trash is more arguable. The fact is, however, that it is an apt description of many white people in the US (and elsewhere for that matter). You can examine the psychologies of the likes of those people who dragged James Byrd to his death, virtually the whole WHITE populations of towns like Tusla (not Tuzla, perhaps they should be "twinned" ;-) and Vidor, both very predomintly red-neck racist WHITE TRASH towns in George Bush's "home" state. You forget that Vera is white, I am white, and in all probability, you also are white.

  "A very poor, poor, analogy of what if.....

  Well, the poorness or otherwise, of an analogy isn't solely for you you to judge. Nor I for that matter.

  "My grandfather, father, brother, sister, cousin, nephew, all served in the United States Military........all Serbian Americans and my husband’s brother who never came back served.I am very proud of all of them and those who do not like it....too bad. I will defend everyone of those servicemen. There are many Serbian Americans in the United States Military are they (uneducated/ white trash/living in trailer parks?). You attack them, you attack my family."

  Good thing that post-WW II Germans managed to overcome any such similar feelings they most probably had concerning attacks on their relatives in the NAZI Wehrmacht. Otherwise, where would modern Germany be today? - not that, mind you, it doesn't still have huge faults, many of which I feel can still now be traced to NAZI sympathisers, if not descendents, in the German BND.

  "There are people like that Joel guy who says he reads but does not post. How many of those who read and do not post could be Mexican or Black or lower income Whites?"

  I've really no idea. I have neither used, condoned or supported the use of racist terms, either here or elsewhere. Ever. If you feel so strongly about it, perhaps you could form a lobby group to get the US airforce to bomb Vera's house. It might work, it's been done before. Contact Joe DioGuardi, former Republican Congressman; he's the expert in such matters.

  "If I misinterpreted Vera’s post, and I cringed when I read it, then there were a lot of people sitting at the table where I was yesterday who also misinterpreted it. We were all disappointed because we do not want any sign of “racism” from the Serbs who were being accused of this for many years now."

  And, on the whole, as we should all know here, falsely accused. In any case, I didn't say you "misinterpreted Vera's post". I said that, perhaps, because of cultural differences, Vera had misinterpreted what was acceptable in terms of description of a certain racial group.

  "This is the first time there has been a leap from not liking the American government’s foreign policy, but liking the American people.... "

  May be here it's the "first time", but I assure you elsewhere it's not. See later, but in a democracy (sic) the "Boss" is the PEOPLE, no? They are, in theory, the President's boss, no? Shouldn't the $buck$ stop there?

  " ... to smearing young men and women and who knows if they like what they are doing now."

  I also think you're rushing headlong here into poorly considered misunderstanding, again. I specifically said:-

  "You've got to feel SORRY for them in a way:-

  Poor education? Poor employment prospects? Poor? JOIN THE US MILITARY! We'll house, feed, train you, and give you that medical coverage you couldn't afford and with a bit of luck, you won't get killed or maimed on one of our various foreign policy misadventures".

  "It is best to take your anger out on the government and their foreign policy, not on those people who are in the military for a chance of a “trade,” “education”, or just “security.” Many have left the military and gone on to higher education using the GI Bill."

  
  
  Good. So you are in 100% agreement with me on the reasons why the large if not the vast majority of people enter the US military:

  " ... JOIN THE US MILITARY! We'll house, feed, train [educate] you, and give you that medical coverage you couldn't afford and with a bit of luck, you won't get killed or maimed on one of our various foreign policy misadventures".

  So, what do you expect? Do you think that those at the sharp and unpleasant end of the US's awesome military machine are going to think, "Oh, it's OK, these guys (and gals) don't really mean it, they only joined up and are now trying to kill us in order to get health-care and an education, because, in terms of equitable access, the US has the health-care and education "systems" from Hell"? (true).

  Or, do you expect that they'll think "Oh, it's OK, it's not the Republicans bombing us (Yugoslavia) or not the Democrats (Iraq), because the "other side" is in power"?

  In both cases, of course, a majority of both those Parties was in favour of the relevant aggression.

  Well, if so, that would take disingenuity to new heights. In all such cases it is America that is committing outrages against ... whoever ... and, correctly, that is exactly what that "whoever" thinks.

  The US self-vaunts its own "democracy" to extremis. If this "democracy" were really true, then the "Boss" is not the President, his Administration or their advisors. In this mere conjecture, the President's boss is the PEOPLE. So, for those people who really believe in that, rather than the Corporate/Media ownership of the US Government, the $buck$ stops with them.

  ___________________________________

  Kathryn:-

  Monday April 21, 2003 at 1:03 pm

  "Do you think there are any Muslims who defend the Serbs?"

  Hard to know what you're getting at with your remarks to Gogol here. If you mean that there are Muslims who defend the Serbs (and there in fact are), then all well and good.

  On the other hand, if you mean that you think there are not, then the obvious response is that two wrongs do not make a right, and other such Ghandhi-like sentiments.

  ___________________________________

  Kathryn:-

  Monday April 21, 2003 at 1:13 pm

  "There are some in the US military that are not nice people just like the JAL. You put a gun in the hand of someone and you do not know what will happen."

  Well, if you'd watched any of the somewhat gung-ho documentaries concerning Marine training on the Discovery Channel, and elsewhere, you'd pretty well know that your "not nice people" comment applies to pretty much all US Marines. They have virtually all traces of individuality brainwashed out of them, and are trained in brutality bordering on hatred. I guess that's seen as the only way to get people to indiscrimately kill strangers they have never met, and that have never done them personally any harm; something the US military is getting to do more and more of as time passes.

  "You put a gun in the hand of someone and you do not know what will happen.

  Tell that to the NRA.

  "Right now, I feel sorry for every man and woman who are now serving in Iraq."

  That's fair enough. But, not a word of sympathy for the thousands of Iraqi military estimated to have been killed, and the many more wounded? And, all within the borders of their own country at that?

  Guess what? I'll bet a dollar to a cent that a great number of that Iraqi military were there for exactly the same reasons that a great number of US military were/are: better benefits.

  Finally, I'll point out that those now dead Iraqi soldiers were live Iraqi CITIZENS before they were dead Iraqi soldiers. As such they had Iraqi citizen mothers, fathers, wives, husbands, sons and daughters; some also now dead; gloriously "liberated" from their arms, legs, and heads.
  
  Dennis Revell
  USA

• Monday April 21, 2003 at 7:18 pm
  Sorry, Jurist Mod., I posted two almost identical posts.

  The first one got some italicisation accidentally omitted, which I beleive makes it much less clear.

  Would you be so good as to delete the first one? Thank you.

  I'm making the assumption that you won't be inclined to delete them both. ;-)
  
  Dennis Revell
  USA

• Monday April 21, 2003 at 7:25 pm
  Well worth saying twice, Dennis. ;-)
  
  Anna P
  California

• Monday April 21, 2003 at 7:49 pm
  Anna:

  ;-)

  And if I were CNN/Fox/et alia, I'd go on to repeat it another 62,398 times, exactly.
  
  Dennis Revell
  USA

• Monday April 21, 2003 at 8:08 pm
  As a newcomer I was particularly thrilled with the excellent piece by Peter Taylor (Simple Arithmetic. Thursday April 17, 2003 at 8:26 am) May I second this question raised by Californian Anna P. on "who might be "listening" in Britain", - if anyone at all?
  
  Godfred Louis-Jensen
  Copenhagen
  Denmark

• Monday April 21, 2003 at 8:13 pm
  First, every empire must have a name: This one is THE PERVERT EMPIRE!!! Morally pervert! Second, The Pervert Empire did kill Serbs because, 1. IT WANTED TO and 2. IT COULD. I wanted to because American Forain Policy is in part driven by local politics. There are about 100 million catholics in America. Pope's goal is to exterminate Serbs. This has has been the goal of the ROMAN PAPACY for a thousand years. And it will be a Pope's goal until ALL SERBS ARE EXTERMINATED. Period. Such is the hatred that catholics have for the Serbs that ultimateely this is going to be a defintion of a catholic: Someone who hates Serbs. Second, The Pervert Empire Could kill Serbs because the Serbs could not figth back. If Serbs vepons to fight back, they would not be in a situation that they are now. What situation? Pope is just waiting for another moment in history to accomplish his goal of exterminating ALL of the SERBS. And it will happen, if the Serbs do get ready to defend themselfs. Finally, is SM getting a fair trial? Let me put it this way. SM shoud be tried by Serbs for NOT DOING ANYTHING THAT HE IS ACCUSED FOR! He should have done everything that he is acused for and MORE! PS. Vera, I love you!
  
  Uvek Sarajlija
  Detroit
  MI, US

• Monday April 21, 2003 at 8:34 pm
  Boy, are the Free Masons ever in trouble then!

  ;-)
  
  Dennis Revell
  USA

• Monday April 21, 2003 at 10:32 pm
  Kathryn, of course it's no fault of those underprivileged in the US to live in shacks and trailers and be uneducated; it's the fault of their government which chooses to do nothing to remedy their situation, but instead goes around the globe pretending to 'educate' other peoples by bombing them. The richest nation in the world chooses not to solve its own problems, it's own more than 'pockets of poverty', general insufficient education and selective human rights implementation and at the same time has the gall to preach about all that to others at gunpoint. And my calling these poor US people bad names? It's not me using these derogatory names, it's your own society who calls them that way and no amount of political correctness can hide it nor deny it. This was my clumsy attempt (obviously, since you failed to understand it) to turn the tables on our friend from Wisconsin, who made snotty remarks about Muslims and I tried to show how easy it is to do the same with his own people. And I only mentioned private Lynch to point out the educational gap between her and that Iraqi doctor whom she was sent half the world across to 'educate'. Guess what? He doesn't need to be educated by her, neither in science nor in humanity. She had no business being there.

  I'm sorry if I offended you in any way. It's good to feel patriotic about your country, but you have to be critical about it as well. My point is, the US can bomb me into smithereens, but it can not educate me, because it can not teach me that way anything worth knowing. And what's more, I don't want to know anything this country could teach me. Other countries and other cultures have their own ways and habits, and that's just the beauty of it. Of course, certain great individuals from the US can teach everyone some good things, but the country as a whole not anymore. At its beginnings it was a great social experiment of individuals seeking to be free from oppressive kings and corrupted politicians of the mouldy Old World. Now it's becoming a tyrant itself, glorifying its rich and making them the rulers, leaving its poor to rot and numbing all those in between into submission and even complacency, bullying other countries and lacking wisdom. It's a huge population there and I hope they will find the strength in themselves to change that dangerous direction. Thank you for trying to understand and I hope this was not overly snobbish to you - this is just my opinion about things.
  
  Vera Martinovic
  Belgrade
  Yugoslavia

• Monday April 21, 2003 at 11:36 pm
  If Vera's comment was racist, then where does that leave JP's comments? More like Vera's comment served to illustrate and to enlighten JP about what could be said about his own people in the same manner in which he made comments about others.

  I don't think Vera needs to apologise to anyone for impacting on their sensitivities. If someone believes an uneducated female soldier is worth more than an Iraqi doctor purely because she is American, then they get what they get... a pretty concise illustration of what their attitude is about. And that is precisely what Vera's comment offered, no more and no less.

  Any other imputation is a question of excessive sensitivity, excessive dishonesty or an excessive lack of lexical facility .

  As for Serb racism, history has well documented Serb attitudes to racism, and the present day eloquently attests to that! Serbia is STILL the most multicultural of the Balkan states, unlike some of the others who have an elaborate history of racial intolerance.

  How 100,000 plus Albanians managed to survive in Belgrade during the NATO bombings without problems is a mystery only to those who know little of the Serb mentality. I would love to hear from anyone who has evidence that any non-Serb YU citizens were driven out of Serbia on racist grounds or that Serbian demography has changed to that effect. The facts speak for themselves. No amount of spin doctoring and no amount of ICTY "evidence" can change that.

  The proof is in the pudding: Which former republics or regions of YU have changed their demographics and substantially reduced their ethnic minorities?

  If we're going to talk about racism, ethnic cleansing and human rights abuses, let's just start with those countries which have much better and much longer traditions of extermination and slavery. Serbia ranks at a distant end in that respect. And I don't think anyone really needs to apologise for that!
  
  David
  Australia

• Monday April 21, 2003 at 11:41 pm
  Bravo Vera!

  Fifty years ago I came to America, starry eyed and eager to be educated. And I was educated at the best place , University of Chicago, by Enrico Fermi, Gregor Wenzel, Maria Goeppert Meyer, Chandrasekhar, and many many others.

  I am presently friends with a dozen Nobel prize winners in Physics and I have a rather comfortable life at my old age. One of my daughter is university professor and the other is an M.D. I have grandchildren, two glorious boys ages five and three.

  I came to this country with one suitcase. Nobody did or could have helped me from Yugoslavia , materially or in any other way. What I have is all from my own work.

  Now you would think that I should be happy about this, my second country where I have been living three quarters of my whole life. But I am not.

  I applaud your words., and I agree with most what you say. And I will print them out and show them to all of my friends.
  
  D. Jovanovic
  USA

• Monday April 21, 2003 at 11:55 pm
  

  If this doesn't beat all - a Californian, who can hear this oh-so terrible derogatory reference "spic" used everywhere 24/7 (if she ever gets out of her politically correct home) sees Vera's post as "racist". Vera's objection to a blanket condemnation of Muslims is not applauded by this politically correct California patriot, but rather attacked, all because she had the audacity to point out American soldiers, overwhelmingly supplied by the lower social classes, were not likely to "shock and awe" those backward Muslims with anything besides brute force. Such polemics on the part of the California patriot are too tainted by hypocrisy to fool anybody as simple denunciations of bigotry or snobbery. It's difficult to say which was more telling: the attack on one of this board's most valued contributors for raising objection to what was a blatant denigration of Muslims (which the Cali-patriot doesn't appear to find offensive at all), or the question "Do you think there are any Muslims who defend the Serbs?". No, there aren't any Muslims who defend the Serbs. Just like there aren't any Serbs who converted to Islam. It's all a product of somebody's imagination. Those witnesses at the ICTY (some of which Vera quoted) claiming Muslims were fighting alongside Serbs in various places throughout the former Yugoslavia were all lying.

  It seems that the board has fallen for somebody's ridiculous baiting; generating a lot of unnecessary banter, and which seems to have only satisfied those looking for a meaningless distraction from the boredom of watching PBS television. Such behaviour demonstrates all the symptoms of alienation so common to post-industrialist societies, with victims seeking to distance themselves from reality, seeking comfort in political correctness; wearing the flag as a diaper, and of course spending far too many hours "online" or in front of a TV. Once again the discussion here has been hijacked through blanket denunciations of ethnic and religious groups and other forms of provocations; all of which is regarded by those needing an internet fix for their psychic condition as "generating controversy", and therefore a "good thing".

  The exchange above, in its own way, reminds us once again of the sort of petty controversies imperial publics have always entertained themselves with while refusing to recognize the immorality which is bombing persons to politically "liberate" them, or "raise their democratic and humanitarian standards". These ambitious, lofty projects, initiated with the best of intentions (of course), and for no purpose other than to demonstrate the outright benevolence and moral superiority of the aggressor (or so those in diapers believe) are typically decorated with racist remarks and other forms of degradation directed towards the enemy, entertained by the by the "enlightened" society as a whole, including the liberators' shock troops. And this obvious contradiction would probably go without any notice whatsoever on the patriotic homefront (as most revel in this xenophobia and chauvinism) were it not for the intervention of a sizeable and excessively influential faction, quite common to the societies of benevolent hegemons throughout history, which apparently sees such behaviour as a sort of stain, however minor, on an otherwise meticulous undertaking. It's this faction, often mistakenly regarded in the US as "liberal", for which we can credit the development of ridiculous lexicon of terminology intended to diminish the significance of such blemishes, and even while acknowleging these trivial stains are really important only to those heretics who don't need diapers. For it is this faction which prefers to regard bombing as "humanitarian"; murdered civilians as "collateral damage" and sees destroyed infrastructure as something "we will rebuild" (or at least Bechtel). They wince when they hear the target of "liberation" referred to as "animals" or "sand-n****rs" and wish they would be referred to as the "oppressed hostages of a brutal dictator" or "sand-N-words" instead, but only for fear that those without diapers, or the French, would heap too much scorn. How they detest it when they sense those European types are acting uppity yet again. And how happy they are when the networks and the official spokespersons accept their view of the situation, and agree to play this trivial game of deceit. For this faction of pretentious hypocrites, the ultimate empowerment is watching an entire society dance to their tune and respond to their ridiculous "politically correct" iconoclasty.
  
  Nico T
  C

• Tuesday April 22, 2003 at 12:48 am
  Yea, but hell, Nico, look at the literary efforts bordering on greatness this unnecessary banter eventually gave rise to.

  ;-)

  ( ... thinks ... as if Vera would be in any need of lil' ol' me to interject with (possible) explanations and (needless) defences ... get real ... )

  D. Jovanovic:

  I've got this kind of "paper" on General & Special Relativity I've been wondering if I could get placed somewhere (seriously, man!). It's not heavyweight or anything, purely amateur, in fact, though I don't think it's infantile. Wonder if you might help/give advice as to where I might be able to get it placed? Kind of "what level" (if any!) of scientific "rag". If you give me an E-Mail, I'll point you to a place on the Web you can have a look at it.

  (if there's anything to it, please don't nic it. ;-))

  Impressive mentors you had: Fermi, Wenzel, Meyer, Chandrasekhar, all great "Americans", with great ?American names?

  Have to go a bit further back, of course, to have had acquaintance with that other great "American", the guy who invented alternating current, and much other stuff: Nicola Tesla. ;-)
  
  Dennis Revell
  USA

• Tuesday April 22, 2003 at 2:10 am
  Vera: Thank you for your response.

  First, I do not care what JP says or thinks. He is just one of the angry white men that Michael Moore talks about.

  Vera you are a Serbian reporting from Belgrade. What you say will go a long way. Your posts are on many forums. If JP had made those remarks, I would not have thought twice about it.I quit reading his posts a long time ago. As a Serbian from Belgrade it is important that you put your best face forward. I have been very proud of you in the past. Your post on what happened in Vukovar with your Mother during the war was very interesting. I copied it and read it to everyone who would listen.I always looked forward to your posts. To me your post on our US Military is very racist and as I said before the people at my table who follow this forum were aghast and they were all Serbians.Please remember that you above anyone else on this forum are being held up to a higher standard.

  There are a few on the forum that criticize their own country, United States, a little too much.One is so filled with hate I feel sorry for the individual.Anger like that can make you ill. I have criticized many times but this is my Country and I do not hate it...if I did I would move to Canada or Greece. I have been an active supporter of the anti war groups on behalf of Iraq, as I was an active anti war supporter against the bombing of Bosnia and Serbia. I am sorry but I cannot work up a lot of hate, I just cannot.

  The men and women in the JAL they are your people but in away they are mine too. The men and women in the United States Military are my people...Blacks, Whites, Hispanics, Asians, Indians.That is one of the things I like about this country. We all have a different face.

  There was an article that came out in June of 1999 by Eve Ann Prentice. This article told about her narrow escape from death while in Kosovo. A couple of paragraphs:

  “We compromised and hid by the entrance. The sound of Four explosions was hideously menacing. It seemed then as if the attack would never stop. We called to the others in our party but there was no sight or sound of them. We decided to stay put for at least a half hour after silence finally descended,. After about 20 minutes, we heard a car close by.

  “Seconds later, two enormous Yugoslav Army soldiers popped their heads over the edge of the culvert, held out their hands and scooped me up. One smiled a big grin and hugged me like a father. Almost carryin me, they shepherded me to their vehicle, where all but one of our party was already ensconced. We could not find Nebojsha.”

  I love that article and I would never ever put them down.Real men who served their country.

  Those who have no concern for the men and women in the United States military, obviously never served or had anyone in their families who did.

  If you want to dislike Americans, please dislike the ones who send these young men and women off to get killed, but do not, or have not ever gone themselves.

  I do not know what you are talking about when you say that this young girl “Jessica” could not educate the doctor in Iraq. I have never said such a thing. I am very aware that Jessica went into the service because she wanted to further her education and would take advantage of that after her service. This was all reported in the Los Angeles Times. How in the world would a young girl with a high school education be better educated then a doctor? She is just a sweet young girl and I wish her the very best and a speedy recovery.

  Mr. Jovanovic:There are many Serbian people from Yugoslavia who have not been here very long, and believe me, they are very happy to be in the US. I just talked to one today.They want very badly to go on living here. Do not feel you do not want to live here when you have had opportunities to do well, just because the politicians have a lousy foreign policy? You have paid your taxes and made contributions to this country and you would give it up because of people like Clinton and Bush? Come now you must remember that this is your country too.

  When you have three thousand people killed, who were innocent, and they were fathers, mothers, sisters, brothers, husbands and wives, you can be damned certain that the relatives are going to be very angry, just as angry as you were when Yugoslavia was bombed. Don’t say your hurt was worse than theirs. You sound ridiculous.

  Dennis says “If you feel so strongly about it, perhaps you could form a lobby group to get the US airforce to bomb Vera's house.” After reading this I lost all respect for you. How old are you? Are you out of elementary school? I am sorry folks but I cannot muster up enough hate to make myself sick over, Clinton. As far as I am concerned he is old news. Adios. Spanish you know, just like a few of my relatives.

  
  
  Kathryn Love
  SJC
  USA

• Tuesday April 22, 2003 at 5:34 am
  So Kathryn, you don't care what JP thinks, says or does, but you do care about what some of the other participants from the US think, do or say, provided they are originally from abroad, namely Serbia? Here are a couple of points you might consider:

  1. Your support for your servicemen and women is misplaced. They are not sent out to get killed, they are sent out to KILL! They have no defensive capacity. They are the aggressors. Your support for them under those circumstances is akin to supporting a criminal actor in the perpetration of a criminal activity. Pure and simple. It matters little if they are just "following orders" for the purpose of maintaining their lifestyles as servicemen/women. You might distinguish this from servicemen/women who are defending their homes and their countries against aggressors from abroad.

  2. In a "democracy" such as the one claimed by the US, YOUR representatives represent your nation and its majority of people. It readily follows that if you have a democracy which you are so proud of, it is YOUR nation or people who are committing such an act, irrespective of whether YOU personally agree or disagree with it. You might distinguish such concepts from people under authoritarian regimes where the will of the people is not expressable. Note the overwhelming number of your representatives who support the attacks against YU and Iraq.

  3. People who have come to the US with illusions and dreams about the benevolence of the US as a humanitarian country with strong humanistic principles may validly conclude that they have left their countries for an ideal which is simply a mirage, particularly when their original countries and people are bombed and obliterated for less than noble reasons or for entirely FAKE reasons. You might expect a reasonable degree of revulsion on discovery of such unpleasant truths. In which case YOU would like to send them back to their original countries or elsewhere, primarily because they fail to take the same degree of pride as you do in what their adopted country is doing.

  4. I take pride in being Australian, but I do not always take pride in what my government does or what my military does, and I NEVER support our military attacking anyone just because "it's their job"!

  5. You might consider that if people are revolted by what the US nation is by definition doing, they don't wish to be a part of it and feel a need to divorce themselves from such action. Otherwise, they write a blank cheque of support to whatever excesses are committed in the name of patriotism and other jingoistic nonsense. <6>You might also consider that if a family member of mine does something heinous, I would disapprove and express such disapproval vehemently, no matter how fond of them I was. Such disapproval in no way reflects my commitment or caring for them, and as you say you don't care what JP says but you fail to voice your disapproval! And it is precisely such views as JP's that are problematic, more so than of people like Vera on whose views you more so concentrate. In fact, you ascribe even HIGHER STANDARDS to her behaviour than anyone else's! That's like saying that the victim must bear a higher standard of behaviour than the aggressor.

  7. That leads me to conclude that well intentioned as you may be, you do have things "arse about face" as we would say here downunder. No amount of criticism of people like Vera is ever going to stop your nation from indulging in what it seems to do best these days... "unfriendly corporate takeovers" at the point of a gun. Maybe that's why some people find fault with the attitude of the American "majority" who support such objectives and strategies. Maybe you could discuss this with some of your representatives in Congress and redirect your criticisms to those who act on your behalf, for that is the only way to stop these takeovers. It's in the hands of the American people and, in a democracy, ultimately it is the people who answer for their government's actions, be they republican or democrat.
  
  David
  Australia

• Tuesday April 22, 2003 at 7:37 am
  The Pope strongly condemned both sides of the conflicts. Isn't that right K Love? Of course so did William Walker.
  
  Joel Aksamit
  Mo USA

• Tuesday April 22, 2003 at 8:11 am
  David - What real choice we have. Any man or woman with a degree of integrity will be demonized by his fellow politician and a willing media long before they make it past the State and in some cases the County level of politics. This is the real problem. A society that believes what they read and hear in the mainstream and have little time or inclination to educate themselves outside of this realm are easily led done the road of partisan politics and we have all seen where these roads meet. Sorry, I would like to elaborate further but I am late for work.
  
  Joel Aksamit
  Mo USA

• Tuesday April 22, 2003 at 8:50 am
  
  Joel: Your comments remind me of a storey told by Alistair Cooke many years ago in one of his weekly BBC programmes ‘Letter From America’.

  Cooke’s theme being corruption in US politics he talked about the tactics of a Southern State Senator defending his record and denigrating his rival by going about the State delivering his campaign speeches in which he refers to his rival in these terms:

  “Did you know that Handsome cogitates and his sister is a thespian?”

  I forget the actual names so Mr Handsome is my alias.

  According to Cooke the denigrator won.

  All of which leads I suppose to Churchill’s observation that democracy is the worst form of government - until you consider all the others.
  
  Peter Taylor
  Herts/UK

• Tuesday April 22, 2003 at 9:21 am
  

  The meaning of the word democracy is a little over stretched in today's America.
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Shangri-La

• Tuesday April 22, 2003 at 2:02 pm
  
  Republicans preparing to acquit Milosevic?

  "Saddam Hussein is now taking his rightful place alongside Hitler, Stalin, Lenin, Ceausescu in the pantheon of failed, brutal dictators, and the Iraqi people are well on their way to freedom," Rumsfeld said at a Pentagon briefing reported 9 April 2003

  If not there is surely some glaring error in this list? Where is the name ‘Milosevic’ so heavily stigmatised as ‘The Great Dictator’ by Blair during his US interview with Jim Lehrer of Online NewsHour on 23 April 1999:

  he's a dictator and he's done some very terrible things

  We have to target his military machine and the whole apparatus of power, of dictatorship of Milosevic and the state-controlled media is one part of that.

  It is a dictatorship … he has this dictatorship in place through things like the state run media and we've got to be prepared to tackle that whole apparatus of power and really bring it home to him.

  a bloody dictator who is engaged in a policy of racial genocide

  Perhaps Bush is preparing to ditch Blair too now that he has control over three quarters of the earth’s oil reserves?. After all Blair’s dodgy dossier with ‘evidence’ of Weapons of Mass Destruction is very embarrassing given the current difficulty of establishing this casus belli.

  It’s nice to dream.
  
  Peter Taylor
  Herts/UK

• Tuesday April 22, 2003 at 5:55 pm
  Ms. Love,

  I feel I owe it to you to explain my state of mind better. Yes, I love this country, my second home. My daughters were born and educated here, my grandchildren were born here. I will probably never go to Serbia even to visit. But I will also not go to England or Europe for that matter.

  Let me illustrate my current disgust with the politician and people in the power, the media and the total propaganda machine at work.

  This morning the TV “Morning news” was preoccupied by the Petterson murder case. On and on in went on all news channels for more than 15 minutes. However the mass demonstration of Shia in Iraq of million people or more had only 30 second notice. And then to top it all a “Senior Foreign policy adviser by the name of Wendy Sherman came on and said: Of course US will not like to have a religious state become of Iraq, we think a true democracy has to be a secular state.” It will take a long time to change their views, perhaps a year or two!”

  Now do you believe that a nation of tens of millions will be “converted” to a secularism in two years? But she said it with a serious face and Katie Curic let it pass if not agreeing with her.

  That is the type of thinking which is served daily to America. Superficial and dismissive attitudes about the war we just had and the mess we just made and switching to a singular human tragedy of a murdered woman and her unborn child. How many unborn children and mothers have we killed just a week ago?

  Well, that makes my blood boil. Some of it is due to the fact that it is Serbian blood after all. But some of it is absurdity and hypocrisy of it all.

  That is the same machinery which lied from president Clinton on down about the war in Kosovo. The methodology was the same and the lying was the same.

  And the men on the street was imbued with the news he sees and the “facts” explained and does not think further than his nose. The indoctrination is so strong that even some of my intellectual friends could not see or understand my protestation during the bombing of Serbia and Kosovo. They believed the media, Christian Amanpour, Albright, Secretary Cohen and of course the President.
  
  D. Jovanovic
  USA

• Tuesday April 22, 2003 at 6:51 pm
  It's the difference between wanting at least the truth to come out, even if we cannot expect justice in our lifetimes AND shrugging it off: Oh, well. Can't do anything about it now, so let's put it behind us and move on. The first is of a person of integrity, the second is a politically-correct pragmatist with a feel-good mentality.

  No real Serb could ever put aside what was done to his or her people, be it by the Turks, Hitler, the Ustashi OR Clinton and, mark my words, neither will a real Iraqi.

  Mr. Jovanovic,

  It is people like you and I who came here (or watched our parents who brought us here) filled with hope for a phony promise that feel the pain caused by where this country is going. Sure you achieved something -- a lot. I daresay someone like you would have achieved it wherever you had decided to land. But it's because you believed so much and hoped so much for your adopted country that you are now so dashed by its mentality steeped in mediocrity and a dangerous lack of inquiry by the man in the street into the actual facts. It is only by caring so much that you can be so hurt, whether by your lover or your country.

  It is because you are who you are that you look beyond what the media spews at you and see for yourself what really goes on. Even if you had been born here, I venture to guess you would have the same inquiring mind and good conscience -- because of who you are.

  It is not contradictory to be in conflict with yourself because you can love your home country, the U.S., yet criticize it and object to it constantly falling so far short of how it presents itself to the world.

  The only hope for the U.S. are citizens like you. It is the flag wavers who will destroy this country -- they are well on the way to doing it.

  
  
  Anna P
  California

• Tuesday April 22, 2003 at 7:26 pm
  Kathryn:

  Tuesday April 22, 2003 at 2:10 am

  "To me your post on our US Military is very racist ...

  Gawwwwd, has this not been flogged to death, already.

  " ... and as I said before the people at my table who follow this forum were aghast and they were all Serbians."

  Yes, but were they "Shocked and Awed"?

  "Please remember that you above anyone else on this forum are being held up to a higher standard."

  Oh yea? Says who? Do you think it's fair to apply pressure on another poster like that? Some might see it as an attempt to make them keep quiet on certain things. Anyway, I can't speak for the others, but for me, what a relief it is that the pressure's now off (see later). ;-) Phew!

  "There are a few on the forum that criticize their own country, United States, a little too much."

  ... and you'd be the arbiter of just what "too much" would be then? How do you manage to discriminate the fine line between "just enough" and "too much"? Just where would that line have been for a 1930's German, who had some doubts about the then regime, whether or not they had friends or relations in the Wehrmacht?

  Anyway, don't be coy. Exactly who are you referring to? I, for one, am on the edge of my seat. Who's criticising their "own" country, the US, "a little too much"?

  "One is so filled with hate I feel sorry for the individual."

  Well, that homes in on it a bit. It's now an individual. Come on, Kathryn, spit it out, who is it?

  "Anger like that can make you ill.

  Wish you'd tell us who. Anyway, whoever it is, it sounds dangerous, but it's nowhere near as dangerous as getting in the sights of the Fascists currently running US foreign policy, and who implement their barbarism with the help (willing or otherwise, but I suspect the former) of your military friends and/or relations. But, I guess that those on the receiving end are just foreigners, so that's OK.

  "I have criticized many times but this is my Country and I do not hate it...if I did I would move to Canada or Greece."

  No one here's said they hate the US. I, for one, love the Grand Canyon, and the Sequoia National Park, etc. Criticism of US social and political structures, however, and including that part which causes poorer Americans of whatever skin-hue, and whether or not related to you, to enlist with the US military, aka US killing machine, is completely fair game; until and when Ashcroft decides to stamp such frippery out, of course.

  "I have been an active supporter of the anti war groups on behalf of Iraq, as I was an active anti war supporter against the bombing of Bosnia and Serbia. ... "

  I wonder if that extended to encouraging some of your friends in the military to attending anti-"war" demonstrations, and burning their enlistment papers in public, somewhat a la anti-Vietnam demonstrations of yore? And then just plain refusing to go, as at least 3 exceedingly brave British soldiers have done? Not an easy thing to do, I have to say, and the poorer of those that did it would, of course, have ended up imprisoned, just as some of them would anyway had they not joined the military for access to health-care, education, and other benefits.

  "The men and women in the United States Military are my people...Blacks, Whites, Hispanics, Asians, Indians.That is one of the things I like about this country. We all have a different face."

  But all neatly brought together by this sickly-sweet characterisation of yours into the equivalent of: "Ein Volk, Ein Reich", eh? How touching.

  In any case when those people are "wearing their military hats", those troops are definitely Bush's, Perle's, Wolfowitz's et alia's play-things, and no more "yours" or the American peoples' than Blair's play-things are mine, or the rest of the British peoples'. They are tools of death and destruction in the hands of mendacious and ruthless men. Do I blame those men more than their tools? Surely I do. That doesn't mean I have to love the tools.

  If a war is wrong, which side are you on? Has it always got to be circling the wagons time again, "America right or wrong" or as Bush Snr. once said: "I will never apologize for the United States of America - I don't care what the facts are"? And keep that pesky Michael Moore away from those circled wagons. American first and Human Being second, again? - or can it never be the other way around? Or is it all just expedient politicking, giving an uncontroversial expected war-time appearance of goose-stepping automaton-like into line? What do I know. For myself, in an equal war, with obfuscated causes, I 'd take no sides. In an unequal war, however, I have to say favouritism for the aggressed against, more especially if they're looking like the under-dog, and against the aggressor; as I was indeed wholly behind the expulsion of the aggressor Iraqi forces from Kuwait in 1991. ( - but then I knew less about that than I know now).

  " ... “Seconds later, two enormous Yugoslav Army soldiers popped their heads over the edge of the culvert, held out their hands and scooped me up. One smiled a big grin and hugged me like a father. Almost carryin me, they shepherded me to their vehicle, where all but one of our party was already ensconced. We could not find Nebojsha.”

  I love that article and I would never ever put them down. Real men who served their country."

  And if Blair had got his way, and US troops, your "friends/relations", had gone in on the ground, I would love to have known what your attitude would have been then. What with all the stories and propaganda about the JNA "not fighting fair and "civilised", that would inevitably have SPUN their way onto your TV screen. Perhaps even some of your friends/relations would have found themselves in real danger. No greater danger than young men in the JNA, on their own territory, would have found themselves in, I hasten to add.

  "Those who have no concern for the men and women in the United States military, obviously never served or had anyone in their families who did."

  What complete nonsense this is. Ditto analogy for those who never served, or had anyone in their families who did, in the Yugoslav/Iraqi/Venezuelan/Nicaraguan/ ... take your pick ... military. This is a board for geo-political legal considerations, specifically the Milosevic case, as far as I remember. These "touching" propagandist little homilies of yours on behalf of the US military are out of place.

  "If you want to dislike Americans, please dislike the ones who send these young men and women off to get killed, but do not, or have not ever gone themselves."

  They are by no means excluded. In fact, as far as I can see, that is the only place towards which any "hate" is in fact, directed. But to expect that the masters are hated, but the tools of destruction they wield (your beloved military) to be loved is disingenuity brought to ever greater heights. As in "I hate Hitler and his cronies", but "I love the Wehrmacht, the Luftwaffe, and yes, those brave volunteers in the "Special Forces", the SS)". Give us a break.

  ________________________________

  Mr. Jovanovic:

  In relation to the following comment from Kathryn:

  "Mr. Jovanovic:There are many Serbian people from Yugoslavia who have not been here very long, and believe me, they are very happy to be in the US. I just talked to one today.They want very badly to go on living here. Do not feel you do not want to live here when you have had opportunities to do well, just because the politicians have a lousy foreign policy? You have paid your taxes and made contributions to this country and you would give it up because of people like Clinton and Bush? Come now you must remember that this is your country too."

  Well, Mr. Jovanovic, you will be aware that you are in very good company in regard to such clap-trap:

  "I came to America because of the great, great freedom which I heard existed in this country. I made a mistake in selecting America as a land of freedom, a mistake I cannot repair in the balance of my lifetime.", ALBERT EINSTEIN, 1947.

  In relation to pro-military stances, Einstein, and I imagine that D. Jovanovic is a fan of his, as I am, also said:-

  "He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would fully suffice. This disgrace to civilization should be done away with at once. Heroism at command, senseless brutality, deplorable love-of-country stance, how violently I hate all this, how despicable and ignoble war is; I would rather be torn to shreds than be a part of so base an action! It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder."

  Hear! Hear! Albert.

  Mr. Jovanovic, in case you don't want to put your E-mail here, you can E-mail me at gijxixj@hotmail.com. Seriously, if you're willing, I would like your advice on that "nascent" paper that I mentioned earlier. If not, fair enough. C'est la Vie. The form of that hotmail address may not be lost on you, and indicate that I'm not "messing around".

  ;-)

  ________________________________

  "When you have three thousand people killed, who were innocent, and they were fathers, mothers, sisters, brothers, husbands and wives, you can be damned certain that the relatives are going to be very angry, just as angry as you were when Yugoslavia was bombed. "

  So say the relatives of the estimated 80,000 killed by US foreign policy in El Salvador, the 30,000 similarly despatched in Nicaragua ... ad almost infinitum. And that's not even mentioning the Palestinians, fighting with mere sticks stones and their own bomb-laden bodies against US supplied F-15s, helicopter gunships and Abrams tanks.

  Any way, just what have the dreadful events of 9/11 have to do with anything under discussion here? I suspect it's just the refuge of first resort, when you can't think of anything to say that's actually relevant.

  "Don’t say your hurt was worse than theirs. You sound ridiculous."

  Well, Mr. Jovanovic has said no such thing, at least not in the "live" thread.I guess it may be in one of the archives. Perhaps you'd care to point out which one? In any case, even if Mr. Jovanovic had said such a thing, validity for it could be argued: Yugoslavia never attacked a foreign country unprovoked. NEVER. It never interfered in the internal affairs of another sovereign country. NEVER. It never armed to the teeth and gave other support to a "Westernised" and stolen country in the Middle East, and gave them unwavering unquestioning support, nor did it create and fund Islamist extremists to put the boot in against the Soviets in Afghanistan, setting itself up for the almost inevitable and very predictable "blowback". NEVER. ... ad infinitum ... So the comparison between the unprovoked attack on Yugoslavia and the arguably not exactly unprovoked attack on 9/11 is just what, exactly?

  "Dennis says “If you feel so strongly about it, perhaps you could form a lobby group to get the US airforce to bomb Vera's house.” ... "

  Fair point (you make a little later about this). I hoped that this may be spotted as a joke. Especially in view of the fact that as Vera isn't sitting on a ton of oil, and currently is "led" by a Government totally compliant to the West, the actual chances of her home being bombed is next to zero. At least NOW it is.

  Even fairer point as you used it to home in on, and avoid answering the many other points that others and I raised, concerning your "America right or wrong" stance in relation to those events in which your beloved US military becomes involved. A not so neat sleight of hand on your part.

  "After reading this I lost all respect for you. ... "

  Really? Well that is upsetting, but you'll have to get in the queue.

  " ... How old are you? ... "

  Not too old to learn, neither too young to teach.

  " ... Are you out of elementary school? ... "

  Yes. Many years ago. When do you get out?

  " ... Adios. Spanish you know, just like a few of my relatives."

  Yea, I know it's Spanish; I know some too:-

  Si Senor, derdego
  Lotza lorez inaro
  Emarnt lorez, emar trux
  Fulla cowzan enzan dux

  Hasta la vista, bebé.

  Spanish you know. Drop the "H" when pronouncing it.

  ________________________________ Anna:

  D. Jovanovic has a lover?!? Good on 'im.

  ;-)
  
  Dennis Revell
  USA

• Tuesday April 22, 2003 at 8:12 pm
  Dennis,

  You really made me laugh, throughout your piece above. Thanks - it was welcome!

  And, although perhaps I ought to have used the less personal term "one's" instead of "your," no harm done. I am sure that Mr. Jovanovic has many admirers.
  
  Anna P
  California

• Tuesday April 22, 2003 at 9:09 pm
  

  Deeds and misdeeds

  Also in case the media might iignore the fact the ICC has finally a Prosecutor!
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Shangril-La

• Tuesday April 22, 2003 at 9:13 pm
  Wrong link, Gogol?
  
  Dennis Revell
  USA

• Tuesday April 22, 2003 at 9:17 pm
  

  No really, but this is it. HERE
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Shangril-La