 MILOSEVIC TRIAL DISCUSSION ARCHIVE |
| JURIST >> LEGAL NEWS - WORLD LAW >> Discussion >> Milosevic Trial Discussion Archive |
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Former Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic is on trial for war crimes in the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia at The Hague. This marks the first time a head of state has been personally prosecuted before an international criminal court.
Is Slobodan Milosevic getting a fair trial?
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- discussion archive
- Wednesday April 23, 2003 at 4:47 am
Very good analysis of both Milosevic and Djindjic erashttp://www.zmag.org/ZNET.htm
click on Grubacic
mile p.
france - Wednesday April 23, 2003 at 4:54 am
VIVE LA FRANCE!
Dennis Revell
USA - Wednesday April 23, 2003 at 10:54 am
The state of emergency ended yesterday in Serbia, it is briefly reported. I wonder how truthfully.
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La - Wednesday April 23, 2003 at 1:01 pm
Apparently the SRS is saying that de-facto the state of emergency is still in effect.Apparently the laws they passed during the state of emergency enable the government of Serbia to continue the practices that the originally needed the state of emergency to engage in in the first place.
BTW: RTS says that it can't continue with broadcasts of the parliament because it costs too much. So now what the government does it does hidden from public view.
Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States - Wednesday April 23, 2003 at 3:33 pm
Thank you Dennis Revell and thank you Anna P for kind words and understanding. At my age of 73 these are best gifts!
D. Jovanovic
USA - Wednesday April 23, 2003 at 6:54 pm
Joel,I know what you're saying about your predicament, I experience it here as well. My point was about Kathryn supporting her military (killers) because they're just following orders and because they are just decent folk going about their jobs, as if their jobs involved day care at the local pre-school kindergarten. My second point is that she expects other Americans to do the same or else they can go back to where they came from.
Anything less is considered hate of America or unpatriotic.
Nico T, Anna P and Dennis and Mr Jovanovic summed it up more nicely than I could manage and it would be a good patriotic and American thing if Kathryn read their posts and paid some attention to the points therein. She might just get the point that criticising republicans or democrat administrations is not sufficient if she REALLY loves America as she claims.
She cannot criticise her administrations and yet wholewheartedly support, under the jingoistic banner of patriotism and love of country, the military agents who implement their policies. And she certainly has no right to try and gag, however subtly, those who feel the need to redress her lack of a logical approach no matter how well intentioned she is.
David
Australia - Wednesday April 23, 2003 at 6:59 pm
DOS failures blamed on Slobodan Milsosevic!
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La - Wednesday April 23, 2003 at 7:00 pm
Forget about love, I just settle for respect!
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La - Wednesday April 23, 2003 at 7:34 pm
David,Thanks for the kind comments. I think you write very succinctly, yet eloquently -- much better than I do as I am long out of practice. Your messages are always logical, sensible and clear. I, for one, enjoy your postings.
Anna P
California - Wednesday April 23, 2003 at 7:37 pm
...as I am sure most people do.
Anna P
California - Wednesday April 23, 2003 at 8:01 pm
In a development that could hurt his defense case, the Serbian government this week disbanded a team of hardline Milosevic loyalists who had been supplying him with key secret service documents for his defense.Can anybody provide any information on this? It comes from Yahoo! news
Dan B
Canada - Wednesday April 23, 2003 at 10:33 pm
Dan BIt's called "cooperation with the Hague Tribunal". Djindjic went part of the way, got a smack in the chops for it and refused to go any further till the NATO countries came up with the goods. They refused to come up with the goods so Djindjic took a dive.
Enter a more cooperative echelon! Powell drops in to provide further instructions and to give the Martial Law an air of legitimacy and support. One way or another, the THEFT of Kosovo from Serbia and the destruction of YU will be justified as Milosevic's doing in the fake context of the criminal enterprise of a Greater Serbia.
Then we can all sleep peacefully in the knowledge that were it not for the democratic forces in the West, another "Hitler" may have won the day in the Balkans. Thank God for Martial Law in the name of democracy and freedom. The state of martial law may end, but the regulations and laws passed during it will perpetuate it de facto.
I'm so thrilled that democracy and freedom and human rights are winning. Especially in Guantanamo!
It's shades of the late 1930s in Germany, the democratic election of Hitler and the democratic but necessary laws passed by the Nazis to save and protect Germany.
Anybody who says they didn't see this new democracy coming in the last 10 years is either comatose or a fool! The actors are different but the script is the same.
David
Australia - Wednesday April 23, 2003 at 11:30 pm
The state of emergency here has been finally lifted, after 42 days. The results of it are the arrests of some criminals (not our criminals, mind you; these go on with their business as before, and even participate in carrying the coffin of Djindjic at the funeral). More significantly, some political opponents and some journalists have been also arrested and are still kept incommunicando. Others have been scared into submission. During the state of emergency there were some laws enacted, which practically prolong the state of emergency: those arrested may be now legally held in custody for 60-90 days without a lawyer and a proper court decision. The only problem with those thousands arrested so far is that some kind of case will have to be presented against them at the court eventually and it might prove to be a tricky thing, since many have been already 'convicted' of the most hideous and improbable crimes by the eager press, so some retractions have already started to appear.As regards the ICTY and its perfect synchronization with our local dirty politics, the benefits were manifold. The first is, of course, the 'solving' of the Stambolic case (the killing of the former President of Serbia). The media and the politicians have already put the blame on Milosevic. That nondescript Vice-President of the Serbian Govt. Korac and the Federal President Marovic stated that this 'finally kills Milosevic politically', if not for any other reason then for just being in the office when that happened. This proves at least two things: these puppets are still petrified that Milosevic might have some respect left for him among the population, so they try to heap as much blame on him as possible. And this proves they are again just slanderers: there's no sign of sending any investigators to The Hague to question Milosevic about the case. The same happened when those numerous 'mass graves of Kosovars' were found in Serbia: the media conveniently thundered about it for a few weeks, just at the time when Milosevic was to be dispatched to The Hague. After that, nobody spoke of it anymore and for 2.5 years of DOS being in the office there was and still is no further investigation. What else could be concluded than these both cases were just smoke and mirrors?
On a more personal level, the wife of Milosevic was also already convicted by the media re Stambolic, a warrant is out for her arrest and thus she's unable to visit her husband anymore. Two prominent members of his Party and some from his support association were arrested. This might contribute to break the man, as our rulers and Judith Armatta from the CIJ reason gleefully. The ICTY will be able to produce a guilty verdict more easily. All of them reason further on that their NATO masters would be pleased with this help to justify their dirty little war and would show its appreciation to them in hard cash.
The second benefit of our current political situation for the ICTY is the announced 'solving' of the Vukovar Hospital-Ovcara case (more than 200 dead found) . According to our Minister of the Interior, together with other mobsters there is a group of the alleged perpetrators of these killings arrested as well. While announcing that, he also invited the remaining two of the 'Vukovar Three' (the indicted JNA officers who had nothing to do with the case, as it was known from the beginning) to voluntarily surrender to the ICTY and 'prove their innocence'. One of them, Miroslav Radic, did that and will join Mile Mrksic who is already in The Hague (Veselin Sljivancanin is still at large). So, the ICTY will have another actor/victim to perform their show trials a bit more. One almost feels sorry for those ICTY officials: what will they do when all those Balkan beasts are processed and their self-important circus packs up and leaves town? Will they go back to their small county courts?
Yes, Pasha, the arrest of Naser Oric (a Muslim military commander, a self-confessed and boastful murderer of many Serbs around Srebrenica, who even showed home-made videos of his handiwork to foreign journalists, and who abused the UN safe haven for his incursions) and his pending processing at the ICTY is significant. His arrest was long overdue and his guilty verdict should not be a problem. The problem is his indictment: too limited to only some of his crimes. Why? And the problem is that Oric is a small fry and his indictment is meant just to create a pretence of impartiality. Only if Alija Izetbegovic and Stjepan Mesic are indicted for the 'joint criminal enterprise' I will start to think that the ICTY might be a real court after all. And only if Clinton, Blair and other NATO leaders are indicted for waging an aggressive war, I will be ready to revise my criticism of the ICTY. Since all this is highly unlikely, I stick to my original opinion and even venture to predict that Naser Oric is not going to get a fair trial there.
To Andy: yes, I can remember there were some accusations publicly exchanged involving Draskovic couple and the planned use of force, but I was unable to find anything in writing. The thing is, it was the wife of Vuk Draskovic, Danica, who was the violent one. She always referred to her husband as a weakling and she is notorious for smashing a glass bottle against the head of a person at a social gathering who made a mistake of crossing her. She tried to incite the husband to turn otherwise peaceful street protests into violent ones by killing few policemen, which he refused to do. However, one policeman got trampled to death by the mob and one protester was shot. Therefore, when the couple was arrested, the story goes that the enraged police took the opportunity to beat her up real good. The husband supposedly got his share as well, although he didn't deserve it so richly. And if this beating really happened, one would expect they would sue the police and remain in bitter opposition even more than before; but no, Draskovic later even joined the Government! Colourful people these two, but too shifty even for politics.
Vera Martinovic
Belgrade
Yugoslavia - Thursday April 24, 2003 at 1:08 am
Andy,since you inidcated in the past that you were is some kind of contact, i am not sure if i am correct, can you give us any updates on the current standing of SLOBODA?
Dan B
Canada - Thursday April 24, 2003 at 5:13 am
Dan B.,My last contact with SLOBODA was on April 8th. I don't know if my contact is in jail or what has happened to him. I know that he was arrested once and then released, and that his computer was confiscated by the Government of Serbia and returned after about a week.
I'm going to contact some other members of the ICDSM to see if anybody has heard anything from anyone at SLOBODA recently.
The last time I heard from my contact he sent me an announcement saying that SLOBODA was going to hold a press conference at the Belgrade Media Center.
I know he intended to publically criticize the so-called "state of emergency," and I haven't heard anything from him since.
Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States - Thursday April 24, 2003 at 5:49 am
WhitewashPristina, 22 Apr (Tanjug) - The coalition Povratak is strongly opposed to the ethnic Albanian idea to reintroduce in the parliamentary procedure the initiative for adopting a resolution on the protection of the fight of the Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA), Povratak whip in the Kosovo parliament Dragisa Krstovic said Tuesday.
Krstovic said that the Serb deputies are opposed, even in combination with the international community, to the "legalization of the KLA war, because KLA members are responsible for the murder and kidnapping of several thousands Serbs and the expulsion of 230,000 Serbs."
Serb leaders who fought terror in Kosovo are hunted down and face war crimes charges in the Hague: for a total of less than 2,000 deaths. KLA leaders who conducted a reign of terror in Kosovo, murdering more than 2,000 in the process, are to be excused?
Analysis of the UNMIK report by Baraybar in conjunction with statements by Bujar Buksoshi, a former Albanian ‘Prime Minister’ of Kosovo, confirms the figures.
Bullshit
Protecting the KLA, which included Mujahedin financed by Bin Laden and who chopped off Serb captives’ heads for fun, is an example of what Blair - a major power behind the throne - calls his war on terrorism.
Peter Taylor
Herts/UK - Thursday April 24, 2003 at 7:32 am
Does anyone have an explaination as to why the transcripts of the trial have stopped. Is this to allow propaganda a chance to soak in before one has a chance to see for themselves what has really transpired. Surely these idiots know that anyone with the patients and desire to find out the truth doesn't take these daily indictments against Milosevic and all that is Serbian very seriously. They should put them in the midst of the cartoon section. Somewhere between 'Beetle Bailey' and the 'Far Side' perhaps.
Joel Aksamit
MO USA - Thursday April 24, 2003 at 7:52 am
Joel,The transcripts are unavaliable because the ICTY claims that there is something wrong with the UN Server which prevents them from posting the new transcripts. You know "Technical Difficulties" again.
Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States - Thursday April 24, 2003 at 8:13 am
Vera,Thank you for the information on Vuk Draskovic. It seems like this man was an ally of everybody in Serbian politics at one time or another - and then had a falling out with them all. His own volunteers even turned against him.
He appears to be a political oppourtunist who will ally himself with anybody who he thinks can get him into power.
When asking who would have a motive to want to bring harm to Vuk Draskovic it is perhaps easier to ask who would not want to harm Vuk Draskovic.
At the time when Draskovic's life was threatened Milosevic would be the last one to want to kill him. Draskovic's credibility was shot to hell by the year 2000. It would be good for Milosevic if Draskovic was the opposition's candidate instead of Kostunica.
I think that Draskovic was shot at to prevent him from running and splitting the anti-Milosevic opposition. That's my hunch. Draskovic only benefitted Milosevic. Draskovic was so discredited and such a clown that he was the best opposition you could want if you were Slobodan Milosevic. Killing Draskovic would be the last thing that Milosevic would want to do.
Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States - Thursday April 24, 2003 at 8:29 am
For those of you familiar with American politics. Slobodan Milosevic wanting to kill Vuk Draskovic would be like George W. Bush wanting to kill Ralph Nader or like Bill Clinton wanting to kill Newt Gingrich.In politics if your opposition is split, or if your opposition is viewed as foolish then that benefits you. Vuk Draskovic is a fool and he split the opposition, so he was the best of both worlds for Slobodan Milosevic.
Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States - Thursday April 24, 2003 at 9:05 am
Dan B,The Serbia-Montenegro Supreme Defense Council composed of the unelected S&M President Marovic, the unelected Serb President Micic and the unelected Montenegrin President Vujanovic.
On April 15th this group of un-elected "democrats" who comprise the supreme defense council decided that they would disband the Commission for Cooperation with the Hague Tribunal. That commission provided documents and assistance not only to Slobodan Milosevic but to every citizen indicted by the Tribunal.
This shows how the Serbian people's greatest enemy is now their own government. What kind of Fascist bunch of despots actively tries to deny their own people, when they are accused of crimes, information that could help their defense?
You can rest assured that when the ICTY hands down their pre-determined "verdicts" against Serbian leaders that the powers that be in Zagreb, Sarajevo, and Pristina will seize on those verdicts and use them as an excuse to demand war reparations from Serbia and the Republika Srpska.
If Serbs all lived in solid gold palaces then paying unjustified war reparations wouldn't be any hardship for them, but unforunately most people in Serbia aren't rich, and can't afford to pay unjustified war reparations to people who don't deserve them.
By disbanding the Commission for Cooperation with the Hague Tribunal the government isn't only selling Slobodan Milosevic down the river, but they are selling everybody in Serbia down the river.
Sure Slobodan Milosevic is only one man, but he won't be the only one who gets punished.
Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States - Thursday April 24, 2003 at 10:34 am
Well, looks like several people understand that the actions of the US Government in Serbia and Iraq are dead wrong. Somebody feels it is the Soldiers fault. Why? They are following orders, just as they have been brain washed to do. Mostly, they are young kids that know no better than what their Commanders all the way up to the President tell them. I was 66 years of age before I gathered the Intelligence to wonder what in the heck we were doing in Kosovo. I was 68 before I read the Pentagon Papers. In between, I have 'learned' many more hideous facts about ALL of the past American Administrations. I am almost 70 now, and am very ashamed to realize I just wasn't paying attention... ALL ALONG. I have an excuse of sorts. We are drilled all our lives to believe we have a Free Press. When I learned during Kosovo that that was a lie, I was devastated. It is very difficult to give up your beliefs of a lifetime. Trouble was, I was raising 7 kids and working, sometimes two jobs, all my life. Makes it difficult to stop and think about WHAT we are hearing from the Media and our Presidents. Since I got Pneumonia just before the start of bombing in Kosovo, I was what I guess you would call a Captive Audience, so I started out believing everything I was told. Then, on the second day of the Reporters being in the Camps, they said, "We have Interviewed Hundreds of Thousands of Muslim Women who state they were raped by Serbian Soldiers." ???? This was of course also stated by Clinton and NATO. My mind was numb. Hundreds of Thousands of Muslim Women? Just how many people did they have doing these Interviews??? It has been a very long journey from there. Try doing an Internet search for the following: "History of US Intervention abroad". It is a VERY LONG list. "Depleted Uranium". This is a Nuclear Weapon we have used over and over in the past decade and a half. It has a half life of 4.5 Billion years, and has already affected the lives of over 70,000 US GIs, not to mention the peoples and Real Estate we have used it against. Bush said we had to bomb Iraq to get rid of 'their' WMDs??? Ours make anything they could come up with look like a child's toy. I have a list of the lies told by Clinton, but will stick with Bush II, for now. "We have PROOF that Iraq has Chemical/Biological/Nuclear Weapons." Sure would have been nice if he had Presented that PROOF. NOW, we are told that the PROOF must be found???Well, if we already HAD it, WHY does it need to ge found? "Iraq gassed the Kurds, their own people." No they didn't! Do an Internet search on "Iraq gassed the Kurds". You will find what this country has known for some time. Iran gassed the Kurds. Now would someone please tell me that I am being unpatriotic or some such thing? "Why don't I leave America if it is so bad?" For the same reason that many decent Germans tried to defy Hitler. Bush I and II, Clinton, etc., and their Administrations are NOT America. The Iroquois Indians gave us an outline for Democracy. We have twisted it all out of shape. Hopefully enough Americans will educate themselve enough to bring back the original model.
Rebecka Justice
Portland
OR - Thursday April 24, 2003 at 11:07 am
Maybe some of the people who believe our Elected Representatives are infallible and that we should stand behind the 100% would read some of the very well "documented evidence" on 9/11? One trouble is we receive so much new info everyday that it is difficult to keep it all in mind. http://emperors-clothes.com/indict/calif1.htm This leads to a succeeding article etc. Kind of puts the whole 9/11 scenerio in a nutshell. Not an easy read if you are of the opinion that our Presidents can do no wrong.
Rebecka Justice
Portland
OR - Thursday April 24, 2003 at 11:52 am
Rebecka:Thursday April 24, 2003 at 10:34 am
Good honest post, but:
I think everbody's made clear that they blame the leaders first, and part of their toolkit of mass-destruction: the "soldiers", somewhere further down on the list, rather than it all being "the Soldiers fault".
On the other hand, in the self-proclaimed land of great individuality and freedom of thought (sic): in a "democracy", the "Soldiers" can't expect a free pass, in fact even less so than Hitler's Wehrmacht, Luftwaffe, or SS could: NAZI Germany didn't pretend to be a democracy, you see.
Some here, including me, draw the line at fawning admiration of, and excuses made for the US military ( - or any other military for that matter ), who are, as the Antipodean Dave has said, not kindergarden care-givers (nice one, Dave), but killers-on-command.
The pity is, and as you are aware, is that too many have to reach your revered old age before the scales fall from their eyes. Too late for them, and more importantly, too late for the victims of US foreign policy. Perhaps working Americans too hard is itself part of the very policy to keep them in the dark.
Dennis Revell
USA - Thursday April 24, 2003 at 12:21 pm
BTW, if you want to create a paragraph, type:left angle bracketpright angle bracket (same as shift,pshift.)
( ... can't be bothered with the html code to make this look neater ... )
D R
USA - Thursday April 24, 2003 at 12:42 pm
The NEw York Times writes today: Mystery Witness Faces Milosevic at Hague Trial
A few days late, and what else?
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La - Thursday April 24, 2003 at 1:58 pm
Can somebody tell me what exactly this says. It is apparently a letter from Slobodan Milosevic.JUGOSLOVENSKOJ I SVETSKOJ JAVNOSTI
Borba koju ovde vodim tice se istine i slobode. To zna cela planeta.
Ovaj nelegalni sud dozivljava svakodnevni fijasko. I to u svom sopstvenom poluvremenu. U poluvremenu u kojem nastupa njihova lazna tuzba i njihovi lazni svedoci. To traje vec drugu godinu. Oni ne smeju ni da misle kako ce izgledati moje poluvreme, u kojem govorim ja, u kojem govore svedoci koje ja pozovem.
Protiv mene su upotrebili sva sredstva politickog, medijskog, psiholoskog i fizickog pritiska. NEUSPESNO.
Sada su pristupili brutalnom progonu koristeci se bezocnim lazima. Taj progon je i fizicki i pracen je medijskom kampanjom.
A cela javnost vidi da su pocinioci zlocina, koje su pohapsili, upravo isti oni kojima je aktuelna vlast odavala priznanje za "doprinos" pucu od 05. oktobra, koji su, sa carapama na glavama preskakali ogradu rezidencije, koji su me uhapsili i kidnapovali za njihov racun.
Brutalnom progonu moje supruge i sina pristupili su iskljucivo zbog mene. Zato sto ne mogu da me slome. Zato sto sam svakako moralni pobednik. Zato sto je istina na mojoj strani.
Zbog tog progona, ja vec trecu godinu nisam video sina, a od skora ni suprugu. To im i jeste cilj, da mi onemoguce svaki kontakt. To pravo ovde nikome nije, niti moze biti, uskraceno. Zato su i odlucili da ga meni uskrate na ovako necastan nacin.
Trazim da prestane progon moje supruge i sina jer je iskljucivo politicki motivisan i u funkciji onemogucavanja borbe koju vodim i pravdanja zlocina nad Jugoslavijom i njenim gradjanima.
Hag, 23. aprila 2003.
Slobodan Milosevic
Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States - Thursday April 24, 2003 at 3:48 pm
OK here is the fast translation. Mr. WilcoxsonTo Yugoslavian and the world public
The fight I am leading here is about truth and freedom. The whole of the planet knows that. This illegal court experiences a daily fiasco. And that in its own halftime. This is in the halftime in which their faulty accusation and their false witnesses. This has been going on the whole year. They do not dare think how will my own halftime look like, in which I speak, and in which speak the witnesses which I will call.
They have employed all means of all media , psychology and physical pressure. UNSUCCESSFULLY!
Now they have engaged in brutal hunt using incredible lies. This is an action both physical and media campaign.
The whole world sees that the alleged criminals, which they have arrested, indeed the very same ones who have been commended for “contributing” in the puc of October 5, those who with stockings on their head have jumped over the fences of my residence and who have kidnapped me for their account.
The brutal persecution of my wife and my son they have taken up exclusively to get to me. Because they can not break me. Because I am already a moral victor. Because the truth is on my side.
Because of this persecution I have not seen my son for the last three years and my wife from the recent times too. That is their aim, to disable any my contact with them. That right is not withdrawn from anybody here and it may not be. They have decided to do that by this immoral way.
I demand that the persecution of my spouse and my son be stopped because it is politically motivated and disables me to carry on the fight against the justification of crimes committed over Yugoslavia and its citizens.
Hague April 23, 2003 Slobodan Milosevic
D. Jovanovic
USA - Thursday April 24, 2003 at 4:38 pm
Another quick translation. -------- The battle I am fighting is for truth and freedom, the whole world knows this. This illegal court is engaging in a daily fiasco, and this is happening during their prosecution time. And this is the time when they bring their false accusations and their false witnesses. This is now going into its second year. They dread to think about what I will say when I present my defence and when I call my own witnesses. They have used political, media, psychological and physical pressure against me, but they have been unsuccessful. Now they have started a brutal persecution using blatant lies. This persecution is also physical and supported by a media campaign. The public can see that those who actually committed crimes are those who have now been arrested by the present [Serbian] government. This is the government that came to power during the putsch of 5 October with the help of these criminals, and which praised them at the time, and even used them to kidnap me from my official residence. They now brutally persecute my wife and son because they cannot break me. This is because I am the moral victor. The truth is on my side. Because of this persecution I have not seen my son for 3 years and have now seen my wife for some time. It is their intention to prevent me from contacting my family. Every prisoner here has this right to see their family except me. They have decided to strip me of this right in a very dishonest way. I ask that this persecution of my wife and son is stopped because it is politically motivated and makes it impossible for me to defend myself.
Tamara Zegarac
London
UK - Thursday April 24, 2003 at 5:43 pm
Rebecka,A heartfelt message, which is appreciated. I'm just glad to know that some people CAN see that things don't add up the way they are shoveled at us. There must be more like you.
Anna P
California - Thursday April 24, 2003 at 5:44 pm
Vera,If my Serbian were half as good as your English, I'd be very happy. Another well-done analysis.
Anna P
California - Thursday April 24, 2003 at 5:48 pm
Andy,I always suspected, ever so slightly, that Vuk Draskovic shot himself for sympathy or some misplaced idea that it would give him credibility -- it wasn't a serious wound, after all. However, if he's as cowardly as it seems, and his wife is a bit of a tyrant, perhaps she shot him. Perhaps, actually, we shouldn't give a flying fig about either of them. Draskovic is a dispicable opportunist, as you've pointed out.
Anna P
California - Thursday April 24, 2003 at 6:00 pm
Vera Please contact me at the following address zegmail@yahoo.co.uk.
Tamara Zegarac nee Martinovic
London
UK - Friday April 25, 2003 at 1:09 am
- Friday April 25, 2003 at 1:30 am
Rebecka JusticeGreta post, frank and to the point. The reason you should not leave America is that you wouldn't really want to surrender the country to the likes of Bush and co. Muhammad Ali didn't go to Vietnam to kill Viet children so they killed his career. Eventually his stand was vindicated and now he is somewhat of a national icon. That is ONE good reason to follow one's own conscience and conviction instead of abandoning ship because it's all too hard. More glory to him and people like you who one day will restore America to its real greatness and true ideals.
David
Australia - Friday April 25, 2003 at 1:31 am
- Friday April 25, 2003 at 5:26 am
HTML Correction
Hopefully - Friday April 25, 2003 at 10:41 am
The President of Sloboda-Freedom has been released today. Bogoljub Bjelica, who had been arrested under the government emergecy, had been held under the clause of potential endangerment to citizens and the state. They were not able to tie him to anything.
Dan B
Canada - Friday April 25, 2003 at 11:27 am
D. Jovanovic and Tamara Zegarac,Thank you for your translations. I don't know anything about the personal life of the Milosevic family. Frankly, I don't consider it any of my business.
What I do know is that Marko Milosevic and Mira Markovic, wouldn't be persued as aggressively by the Serbian authorities if they were not Slobodan Milosevic's family.
I am not saying that they are guilty. I don't know what exactly they're even accused of, since the accusations are so vague and wide-ranging. What I do know is that their accusers have no credibility.
Remarks from the Serbian Media calling Mira Markovic "the Red Witch" and the "Lady MacBeth of Belgrade" are obviously an attempt at a crude propaganda campaign. These remarks are frequent, but details and in-depth analysis of her alleged crimes are no where to be seen, all they do is call her names.
The same media technique is used in Serbia against Mira Markovic as was used in the United States against Milosevic himself.
Milosevic was called, a dictator, a despot, a fascist, a genocidal butcher, the butcher of the Balkans, the new Hitler, etc...
Milosevic was called all of those names by so-called "journalists" but those propagandists who call themselves "journalists" never provided any real in-depth research to back-up all of their name calling.
Now we see Milosevic at the Hague cross-examining his accusers and he has humiliated all of them.
Slobodan Milosevic is calm and dosen't react emotionally when he gets accused. He methodically and calmly analyzes the accusation and then methodically destroys it. Milosevic gives his accuser the rope and his accuser always ends up hanging himself with it.
Dan B.
You were asking about SLOBODA. I got word from them today. I be receiving a press release from them today concerning the letter from Milosevic and giving an update on their status. I will post it on my website (www.slobodan-milosevic.org) as soon as I get it.
Anna P.,
You could be right about Draskovic sooting himself inorder to get public sympathy.
It seems that they aren't going after Milosevic about Draskovic though. They only reported once that Pavkovic had alleged a government consperacy to kill Draskovic.
The Serbian Government seems to be focusing its attention on the Stambolic accusation.
They just announced today that they are filing criminal charges against Milosevic over the Stambolic killing. They say that he was in a consperacy 8 other people to kill Stambolic.
Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States - Friday April 25, 2003 at 11:37 am
Would someone explain how to separate paragraphs on here? I tried the space between and it didn't work. Thanks for any help.
Rebecka Justice
Portland
OR - Friday April 25, 2003 at 1:11 pm
The editorial in New York Times today argues for the formation of the Court of Justice for Iraqi “criminals”. They list this as the criteria: “The best choice is a special tribunal established by the United Nations with judges from Iraq, if qualified jurists are found, and from other countries - with as many from Islamic nations as possible. The current tribunal in Sierra Leone is a possible model. To avoid the appearance of partiality, judges should not come from countries that participated in the war. The involvement of the United States should be minimal. The tribunal should be in Iraq if witnesses can be adequately protected there from retribution, and nearby if they cannot.” I wonder whether any of this is applicable to the Hague court?
D. Jovanovic
USA - Friday April 25, 2003 at 1:36 pm
HTML Correction
Hopefully - Friday April 25, 2003 at 1:47 pm
Message on creating paragraphsFor contributors who wish to make their text easier to read by breaking it up into paragraphs:
Prefix the sentence intended to start the new paragraph with the following group of three characters:
<P>
On most keyboards the < character is created by an upper case comma key.
The > character is usually created by an upper case full stop.
Example: Prepare your text thus:
First paragraph. <P>Second paragraph. <P>Third paragraph.
The text published on this forum will then appear thus:
First paragraph.
Second paragraph.
Third paragraph.
PSIt may be easier to form the paragraphs while creating/editing your text so that it is obvious where to place the <P> code. But remember that a paragraph will not be formed in the published text unless you also place the <P> code before the sentence starting the new paragraph.
Peter Taylor
Herts/UK - Friday April 25, 2003 at 2:05 pm
Thank you Peter.
Rebecka Justice
Portland
OR - Friday April 25, 2003 at 2:35 pm
Dennis, Sorry my original post was so unreadable. Hopefully I will do better this time. >P< On the kids we are sending abroad to fight, I have to stop and think how brainwashed we are as a Nation. When the majority of MATURE Educated individuals can be made to believe, these different peoples are our enemies and pose a threat to US, I am afraid I don't blame undereducated GIs for falling for the line. >P< Part of the problem is we are so 'busy'. There doesn't seem to be much time to sit and 'think', until you reach retirement. For some, not even then. We accept what we are told as Gospel, because we don't stop and think about what they are saying. >P< Bush said he 'had' Proof that Iraq had Chemical weapons. That Proof must now be found??? Who lost it. If you have something, WHY do you need to FIND it? >P< Every other day we are told they FOUND it. Then within a day we are told it was another false alarm. (They really count on the short attention span of the masses.) Put the seed there and all they remember is it was found. >P< I am definately NOT Anti-Military. WWII comes to mind. I am Anti every single Military action we have engaged in since, plus a whole slew of them before WWII, going back 500 years. >P< Amazing what you can learn when you find out how long you have been lied to and decide to check out the FACTS. >P< I agree with your last paragraph, but I believe if you think it over, you will realize that it is a lot to expect a bunch of kids, mostly from the wrong side of the tracks, to realize that all the rhetoric is lies. They are told these people are a danger to America and they believe it. They have far too much company in the American masses.
Rebecka Justice
Portland
OR - Friday April 25, 2003 at 2:36 pm
Still did something wrong.....:(
Rebecka Justice
Portland
OR - Friday April 25, 2003 at 2:39 pm
Oh, I think I see what I did wrong.Hope this fixes it.
Rebecka Justice
Portland
OR - Friday April 25, 2003 at 3:04 pm
Anna, Thank you. I have been really impressed with this forum for sometime. It is the only one I have found where people discuss the issues as adults.Most of my life I read Novels. Amazing since my favorite subject was History. Well, since Kosovo, I am making up for lost time, and have learned that Kosovo was just a drop in the bucket as far as Empire building is concerned for this country. (Guess none of our leaders are aware of the lessons of History. EVERY great Civilization came tumbling down, usually by over extension....)
We are the only nation who has used and CONTINUES to use, Nuclear Weapons. Just reading up on Depleted Uranium is enough to cause nightmares. And Bush says he has proof of WMDs in Iraq??? Pot calling the kettle black?
We have prisoners at Guantanamo Bay, some of them are kids. How long have they been held there, incommunicado, now? Indefinately. No representation, nor notification of families.
GWBush/Clinton/Bush I, ect., have no room to talk on the cruelty of other world leaders. (Read "The Pentagon Papers", for some very telling items on some of the earlier ones. With quotes straight from the horses as. er, mouths.
Rebecka Justice
Portland
OR - Friday April 25, 2003 at 3:15 pm
David, Thank you. There is no way I would leave this country. What those who have suggested I leave are really saying is they want a country where no one can question the deplorable actions of our 'leaders'?It seems more logical for THEM to leave. There are plenty of places where this is still the norm. Saudi Arabia would be one, with Turkey a close second and it doesn't look like we are intending on turning those two countries into Democracies anytime soon?
Of course, I believe we have never really been a Democracy. Ben Franklin got the 'idea' from the Iroquois. Now THAT was a Democracy. Trouble was, in it's Iriquois form, it made it too hard to go to war....
Rebecka Justice
Portland
OR - Friday April 25, 2003 at 3:27 pm
Friday April 25, 2003 at 2:35 pmRebecka:
I could hardly agree more with this post.
There's only one thing I would say in clarification of my position. I will not be more upset by the death of those mis-led US (or UK) soldiers, aggressors, than the deaths of aggressed against soldiers, in most recent history, Iraqi. In fact, I refuse.
The deaths of Iraqi soldiers, the aggressed against, is more upsetting.
Sorry I messed up my clumsy explanation of how to make paragraphs. Just trying to help.
Dennis Revell
USA - Friday April 25, 2003 at 6:25 pm
Gogol, Am I missing something here?The NEw York Times writes today: Mystery Witness Faces Milosevic at Hague Trial
After reading the article, it seems like SM and a lot of other members of the Serbian Government at the time, should be able to figure out exactly who she is.
My first thought is, maybe she is afraid the same thing will happen to her that happened to Arkan if she doesn't testify for the Prosecution.
By the time the US Government started villifying Arkan, their lies about the rest of Serbia were so transparent, that the charges that he was "nothing but a gangster" fell on deaf ears. Sounds more like he was a very big hero to the Serbian people. For good cause.
Rebecka Justice
Portland
OR - Friday April 25, 2003 at 6:45 pm
Dennis, You are entitled to your opinion. I will keep mine.>the "Soldiers" can't expect a free pass, in fact even less so than Hitler's Wehrmacht, Luftwaffe, or SS could: NAZI Germany didn't pretend to be a democracy, you see.<
None of those you mentioned were ORDINARY Soldiers. I have not been referring to those in command. Even at that, an American AF General REFUSED to be a part of the War against the Serbs in Kosovo. I forgot his name and have often wondered what happened to him.
The way I look at it, we NEEDED those ORDINARY soldiers during WWII. We still do! No country can disband their Military and hope to survive. I reserve my wrath for those who 'use' those kids so dishonorably.
I will continue to mourn the deaths of both sides of the Military AND all the civilians, especially the babies.
This is not to say there are not going to be a few like Lt. Calley in any given war, but having met a great many GIs while living in Colo. Spgs., I guess I got a little different opinion of these "paid killers".
IMO, It is also debatable whether or not the US is a Democracy.
Rebecka Justice
Portland
OR - Friday April 25, 2003 at 7:51 pm
Ms. Rebecka Justice,I very much like your posts. I, being 73 have also undergone a similar transformation, even without having a pneumonia. I have only a bed hip and I will soon have a replacement surgery.
Like you I now reside in Portland, in Laurel Hurst area, where my daughter is an MD. She has arranged for my surgery, so I am in good hands.
What is greatly appreciated that even a native Americans can see through the fog of perpetual propaganda and see the warts on ones own government. Perhaps more than just warts.
D. Jovanovic
USA - Friday April 25, 2003 at 10:01 pm
I just checked the ICTY website and it is fully recovered . April 30 is Queen Day a Dutch one, I assume, celebrated by having no hearings and May 1 is apparently not celebrated by the United Nations ICTY since the court sits. It is a strange UN, this UNO.
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La - Friday April 25, 2003 at 10:40 pm
From the Associated Press today:President Bush raised the possibility Thursday that any Iraqi weapons of mass destruction were destroyed before or during the U.S.-led war, suggesting for the first time that coalition troops may come up empty in their search.
What! No weapons?! They might have been destroyed before the war?! What the Hell do you mean Mr. Bush!? Are you saying that Iraq was telling the truth when they said that they had destroyed all of those weapons!?
I have an idea. Maybe since Slobodan Milosevic was so good at hiding all of those mass-graves in Kosovo, he hid them so good in fact that even after 4 years of looking they haven't found even one mass grave.
Maybe Sloba shared his secret hiding places with Saddam and Iraq's weapons of mass destruction are burried in those mass-graves along with all of those hundreds of thousands of Kosovo Albaians who Bill Clinton told us were slaughtered, but who nobody even bothered to report as missing.
Or maybe Saddam burried all of his weapons with those thousands of Srebrenica "massacre victims" that nobody can seem to find, after almost 8 years of looking.
At any rate that Saddam Hussein must be one cleaver war planner. He knows he's going to be attacked so he very cleaverly gets rid of all of his most deadly weapons. Why on Earth would you want to use your weapons to kill the enemy troops who are invading your country, when you can destroy your weapons and let the enemy kill you instead?
Hey, it makes perfect sense to me. I'm a "good" American. I'll believe any consperacy theory, no matter how stupid it is, as long as it comes out of the mouth of my president or from that Christiane Amanpour. And whenever somebody dosen't believe the president or that pretty little Ms. Amanpour I will accuse them of being a consperacy theorist.
Yes Mr. Bush; Saddam destroyed his weapons before you could find them just so that you would look like an asshole. That must be it.
But hey Georgie boy, look on the bright side. You control all of Iraq's territory, you control everything that comes into Iraq. You might just be able to arrange to "find" some WMD's there yet. :o)
Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States - Friday April 25, 2003 at 11:34 pm
" ... pretty little Amanpour ... "?Well, it is Friday night, everybody deserves a drink sometime.
Rebecka:
I think we fundamentally agree. The (NAZI era) Wehrmacht were/are, I assure you, regarded as quite ORDINARY soldiers, the Luftwaffe as quite an ORDINARY airforce. Many of them could, and did, quite successfully, use the argument that they were "just following orders"; just like US forces can depressingly claim in Iraq.
That depressingly unintelligent claim takes nothing away from the monstrosities they were both party to.
Dennis Revell
USA - Friday April 25, 2003 at 11:41 pm
Couple of issuesRe: War Crimes of US soldiers
One needs to be able to distinguish between the crime of a War of Aggression and the simple war crimes such as murder. The responsibility for the War of Aggression rests on the shoulders of the political and military leadership. (note that would mean the entire Bush cabinet). Individual soldiers and even most Generals could not be held liable for participating in a War of Aggression. (aka Crime against Peace) These individuals could only be held responsible for violation of the rules of war.However, there is plenty of evidence that the rules of war were violated(and continue to be violated by the 'occupying powers') by soldiers and their officers.
A useful primar on the subject is Just and Unjust Wars by Walzer published circa 1977 it remains in print. It is a must read for anyone wishing to speak intelligently on the subject.
For US rules of occupation one can go to USFM 27-10 Chapter 6.....it is avaliable on the web and illuminates how US officers violated their own rules in the occupation of KosMet as well as the occupation of Iraq.
Regarding the attack on Vuk D. To those of us who are familiar with the US secret services mindset, this hit was a textbook destablization ploy cooked up in Langley with approval of State. I spent a number of years around those clowns and their fingerprints were all over the attack.
AP V
NY
NY - Saturday April 26, 2003 at 12:46 am
The Hague Tribunal is doctoring the transcripts. The transcripts are being redacted when Nice and May don't like what Milosevic says. Look at the two passages below, in one passage Nice suggests redacting the transcripts if Milosevic makes remarks for "external consumption."In the next excerpt Milosevic asks a question that Nice and May don't like. Nice asks May to redact the question from the transcript and May complies. The question gets redacted. When you go to that part of the video you see that the video tape has been crudely doctored, you don't have to be an expert at all to see it.
VIDEO at:
http://hague.bard.edu/video/icty_env.20030401.ram
Go to the 1 hour, 4 minute and 20 second mark of segment 2.
* * * * BEGIN EXCERPT 1 * * * *
On March 31, 2003 (Page 18257 of the transcript starting on line #7)
MR. NICE: I remind the Court that I never respond to the various allegations that are made by the accused. I'm not going to change the policy now. If at any time the Chamber thinks that these allegations may be simply for external consumption, it's always possible to redact the transcript. I'm not going to enter into any kind of a debate with the accused over that sort of allegation.
* * * * END EXCERPT 1 * * * *
* * * * BEGIN EXCERPT 2 * * * *
On April 1, 2003 (Page 18300 of the transcript starting on line #6)
SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC: I see. We'll come to that later. Now, tell me, please, is it true that you went to the Radojka Lakic elementary school?
WITNESS ALIJA GUSALIC: Yes.
SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC: [redacted]
MR. MAY: That is totally irrelevant. That's a most improper question.
SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. May --
MR. MAY: No, it is not a proper question, and the witness will not have to answer it. Now, kindly confine yourself to what is relevant and proper.
MR. NICE: May that passage be redacted from the transcript.
MR. MAY: Yes. Now, go on to something else.
WITNESS ALIJA GUSALIC: [Interpretation] You, Mr. --
MR. MAY: Mr. Gusalic.
WITNESS ALIJA GUSALIC: Shame on you, Mr. Milosevic.
MR. MAY: Mr. Gusalic, I can understand that you'll be annoyed, but try not to be. You will be protected from questions of that sort. You're not here to harry the witnesses or bully them, Mr. Milosevic. Now you'll confine yourself to proper questions.
SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC: Mr. May, I think that this is proof that Mr. Nice is abusing this witness. He is obtaining statements from him which are not truthful.
MR. MAY: You can ask the witness proper questions. Now, get -- move on to that.
* * * * END EXCERPT 2 * * * *
Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States - Saturday April 26, 2003 at 5:43 am
It's a great pity Jari is no longer contributing: I would dearly love to have his legal opinion on what constitutes "proper questions" in a court of law.What legal criteria does may obey in order to censure Milosevic's improper questions?
Peter Taylor
Herts/UK - Saturday April 26, 2003 at 6:12 am
In order to establish or question the credibility of a witness all questions are relevant. In a jury trial objections can be raised to keep the jury in line with the subject matter of the crime, in a trial without a jury it is futile to do so since the troika acts as judges in the broad sense and as jury in the narrow one, so what is the point of redacting the transcripts other than to falsified the record?
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La - Saturday April 26, 2003 at 10:42 am
When you look at the video you see that they didn't do such a good job of doctoring the tape and you hear that the last word in the so-called "improper question" was "children."So we know that Milosevic asked the witness if he went to a school and then he asked the witness something about children.
Maybe, and this is only my theory, maybe Milosevic asked the witness if he went to that school in order to molest the children there.
If the witness is a pedeophile that could be used by the prosecutor in order to blackmail the witness and extort false testimony from him.
That would explain President Milosevic's later statement of: "I think that this is proof that Mr. Nice is abusing this witness. He is obtaining statements from him which are not truthful."
Maybe by "abusing the witness" he means blackmailing the witness, since "abuse" can be any number of things including blackmail.
At any rate this is just my theory. I have no idea what the question was since the transcript was censored.
Between the "closed sessions," the so-called "protected" or secret witnesses, and now the blatant and outright censoring of the transcripts, the original question that this form was founded on seems obvious.
Is Slobodan Milosevic getting a fair trial?
Isn't it obvious?
I should point out that this may not be the only place where they doctored the transcript. This just happens to be what I found, and I foud it by accident.
Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States - Saturday April 26, 2003 at 11:07 am
D. Jovanovic, Hi neighbor! I live near St. Johns. All the best on your hip surgery.You are certainly correct in stating "more than just warts". I am almost finished with a book that makes me just sick about 'our' government. It is "In The Spirit of Crazy Horse", by Peter Matthiessen.
The book gives a brief background on the Oglala Sioux, and goes into detail regarding the trial and imprisonment of Leonard Peltier.
Two FBI Agents were killed on Pine Ridge Reservation and Peltier has been convicted of murdering them. EVEN though, the Prosecutor admits he doesn't know who fired the fatal shots. AND even though the Agents had NO right to be on the Reservation.
Documents released under the Freedom Of Information Act prove the FBI lied about many things during the Trial. IN THEIR OWN WORDS.
This book goes into detail regarding the Terrorist tactics of the FBI. Amnesty organizations and well known people the world over have insisted the Government at least give Peltier a new trial.
Most of his time is spent in Solitary Confinement. He has already been in prison twice as long as anyone convicted of a similiar crime, with no possibility of parole. He is allowed no family visitors.
"By the time I had finished the final page, I felt angry enough.... to want to shout from the rooftops, 'Wake up Amerca, before it's too damned late!" Nick Kotz, The Washington Post.
Rebecka Justice
Portland
OR - Saturday April 26, 2003 at 11:53 am
Dennis, I'm sorry. I can't agree, even fundamentally. You seem to feel that we should have NO Army. To me it seems like throwing out the baby with the bath water.No ordinary German soldiers were even indicted at Nuremberg?
The Wehrmacht were not ordinary soldiers. They were the Special Forces so to speak, and still, only their Commanders were indicted and tried.
There were many instances during that war where members of the Luftwaffe actually helped Allied soldiers to escape the SS.
> However, there is plenty of evidence that the rules of war were violated(and continue to be violated by the 'occupying powers') by soldiers and their officers. <
The rest of the post from which I took this excerpt, is in regard to OTHER THAN ordinary soldiers, and I have already agreed that there are a few like Lt. Calley in EVERY Army. There were also others with Lt, Calley who tried to stop him.
You haven't stated your views on disbanding the Military altogether??? You have also painted the entire Military with the same brush??? I remember Sgt. York and Audie Murphy, and many, many, more like them.
Unfortunately, a Military MUST "obey orders". The problem is still the leaders all the way to the President. That we have anything even remotely resembling a Democracy is thanks to those soldiers obeying orders in WWII.
Rebecka Justice
Portland
OR - Saturday April 26, 2003 at 1:49 pm
Does anybody see a certain similarity between Iraq now and Yugoslavia in 1990’s? Iraq has three major religious and ethnic factions: Shia, Suni and Kurds. Yugoslavia had three major religious factions: Serbs, Croats and Muslim( Bosniaks).I guess we have seen what a success US/NATO made in Bosnia, Serbia and Yugoslavia in general. Rather then integrating the factions US has aggravated the division and strife.
Now a military man is sent with a handful of Iraqi nationals imported from the US are trying to govern Iraq. And the people of Pentagon and State department have all but forgotten how much of a fiasco was Bosnia. How can they be so naïve?
D. Jovanovic
USA - Saturday April 26, 2003 at 2:16 pm
It sure would be nice if someone were to take the transcripts and put them in easily readable form.I for one don't have enough time on the internet to 'watch', the Trial and besides, I get more out of what I read.
I took a lot of Transcripts off line and have finished 3 of them in easily readable form. (Takes a loooong time.) In the Transcript form, they are too difficult for me to follow.
What I wish is that someone would do all of them and publish them, either on the Net or in an ongoing article.
The idea came to me that if more people had access to them, more people would read them and know what a farce this trial is. Maybe enough people would read them to make a difference.
Too bad some of our "Court TV segments don't realize what a gold mine it would be to show the trial on regular TV. (Of course I realize our Government would never allow it.) :(
Rebecka Justice
Portland
OR - Saturday April 26, 2003 at 2:29 pm
D. Jovanovic, From all I have read, there didn't seem to be any strife in Bosnia, UNTIL the US Government created it.In Kosovo, the only problem was the KLA. Our beloved CIA stated that the KLA was a Terrorist organization, so we help a bunch of Terrorists to take over a country???
I got in an argument on another forum when Bush stated "We will be out of Iraq in 6 months". Does anyone remember Clinton's promise that we would return Kosovo to the Serbs within 6 months? "The troops will be withdrawn from Bosnia within 6 months"?
We still have troops in Germany??? S. Korea??? S. Vietnam??? Canada???, England??? etc., etc., etc., Some 200,000 troops are serving abroad. You have to wonder if anyone in the Government has ever read about the downfall of other Civilizations who tried to rule the world.
Rebecka Justice
Portland
OR - Saturday April 26, 2003 at 7:36 pm
I wonder why ( when i enter my name on "Google" search) i get this:http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=vytas+abrutis&btnG=Google+Search ..... - try with Your own names too... - You might be surprized.....
vytas abrutis
phila,PA
USA - Saturday April 26, 2003 at 10:26 pm
Rebecka,You can read the transcripts on my website.
http://www.milosevic-trial.org/trial/index.htm
You can also search the transcripts there if you want to research a particular topic. Just type the topic into the search box and the relevant transcripts will come up.
Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States - Saturday April 26, 2003 at 10:29 pm
vytas abrutis,If you really want to see something interesting type your phone number into google and your name, address and a map to your house will come up.
Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States