 MILOSEVIC TRIAL DISCUSSION ARCHIVE |
| JURIST >> LEGAL NEWS - WORLD LAW >> Discussion >> Milosevic Trial Discussion Archive |
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Former Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic is on trial for war crimes in the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia at The Hague. This marks the first time a head of state has been personally prosecuted before an international criminal court.
Is Slobodan Milosevic getting a fair trial?
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- discussion archive
- Sunday April 27, 2003 at 12:40 pm
Andy, Thank you. It looks like all the ones in Serbian have the numbers removed along the left margin. Is there some way to traslate the Serbian language version into English? I used to have "Babel Fish" but it no longer works.I have a real hard time reading the English version because of those numbers. Especially when there are a couple of pages left out to accomodate for the translations.
When it says "Unredacted Version", does that mean just the word "Redacted" is left out or does it contain the Testimony that was Redacted? (Guess you can tell I am not a Lawyer)
Rebecka Justice
Portland
OR - Sunday April 27, 2003 at 12:59 pm
Osama Bin Laden to Reconcile Russia and USA 04/26/2003 16:34http://english.pravda.ru/world/20/91/368/9858_osama.html
Russia and USA must cooperate closer to fight terrorism
Osama bin Laden has reminded the world of his existence again. To be more precise, it was not him, but the Washington Post newspaper that reminded of the 9/11 prime suspect. The newspaper has recently published a long article that was called "How Jihad Made Its Way to Chechnya." The article particularly cited one of Bin Laden's messages that was meant for a Bosnia-based activist of Benevolence International Foundation. This "Islamic charity fund" actively sponsored terrorists, including Chechen terrorists too.
So, Bin Laden wrote in a letter that it was time to attack Russia.
Does anyone has a reference to that Washington Post article mentioned above?
D. Jovanovic
USA - Sunday April 27, 2003 at 8:13 pm
There was an article in today's New York Times glorifying our arm superiority. Here is my letter to them:Sir,
Regarding your article: American Power Moves Beyond the Mere Super
By GREGG EASTERBROOK
The one primary fact is forgotten: WAR ON TERRORISM! Consider the military preparedness of Israel vis-à-vis the Palestinians. And yet the suicide bombing has rattled Israel to the core. What good are these modern super weapons against a determined bunch of people who hate us so much to give their lives killing our people.
What good is a guided smart bomb against a terrorist bringing his belt with explosives and nails into the Disney World?
What good is our airpower against people who poison our water systems?
We have obsolete armament! D. Jovanovic
D. Jovanovic
USA - Sunday April 27, 2003 at 10:03 pm
To Andy: I did a small research into the transcripts re that deleted question by Milosevic to the witness Alija Gusalic, and it is quite easy to guess what the missing question might be, the one that had been redacted after the question "Is it true that you went to the 'Radojka Lakic' elementary school?" It is not something that Gusalic did at that school as an adult, but rather what happened when he was a child attending the school (the translation is poor, the question was isli u skolu, meaning 'attend', and not odlazili u skolu, posecivali skolu, meaning 'went' or 'visited'.After establishing that, I remembered that Gusalic was furious later on when Milosevic said that the violence in Bijeljina started with a bomb attack against the café 'Istanbul', perpetrated by a person who was a mental patient and an alcoholic (it was the attack to which our witness Gusalic responded the next day in an even more ridiculous way, riding on a horseback and holding a hand grenade, intending to throw it into the Serb café 'Serbia'). The answer of Gusalic was telling: "I heard about that. Apparently, when you're talking, everyone was a mental patient that graduated from special schools." Milosevic: "No. Quite the opposite. Only the individuals, specific individuals that I mentioned." (Check the transcript of 1 April, page 18320).
So, the redacted question by Milosevic obviously was whether it was a fact that the witness, after attending the 'Radojka Lakic' elementary school for a while, had been found to be a child 'with special needs' (as the PC rules would want me to call it) or a child who was insufficiently mentally developed to continue attending regular elementary school, and therefore was transferred to a special school for such children, from which he finally graduated. See what May found to be the 'improper question'? A simple fact that the witness to the Prosecution is a mentally challenged person, who is unfit to testify. Therefore, the Chamber ordered the question revealing that fact to be redacted from the transcript. But, they forgot to purge the transcript thoroughly, i.e. they were sloppy in their quest to hide the facts, I'm so sorry.
There are also some further proofs to that: on page 18332 there's a short exchange showing how Gusalic escapes into his inadequacies when it suits him. Milosevic: "And do you know who Djuk Smail is?" Gusalic: "I don't know. I'm not good at remembering names. I don't even know my children's names." Milosevic: "You don't know your children's names?" Gusalic: "No." Milosevic: "Oh, fine. I don't know, Mr May, as you have cautioned me and said that I asked improper questions, there are some other questions which in your opinion could be - have been along these lines, but the witness himself says he doesn't know the names of his children, and the improper questions that I asked are relevant in order to assess the credibility of this person's testimony, a person who was ---" May: "I don't think he means that literally he doesn't remember his children's names or whether he forgets them from time to time. It's a common enough experience for anybody. If you want to raise something along these lines, we better go into private session." Milosevic: "Well, yes. Let's move into private session just for a second." May: "Yes." [Private session]
See? At least three things are apparent from this. First, the redacted 'improper question' was indeed regarding the mental capacity of the witness. Second, Gusalic is out of his wits and unfit to testify. Second, May is out of his wits and unfit to sit the bench. He obviously thinks that it's 'common enough' to forget the names of your own children! Perhaps, if you are over 80 and with Alzheimer, or if you have 120 children, or if you are judge May.
Nice was scared a bit by all that nonsense and the distant possibility that his witness might look too unreliable because of his weak mind, so after the cross-examination he seized the opportunity in the last question of his re-direct and he asked Gusalic: "My last question about your state of memory. You've explained to the Judges that in fact of these events you have a good and strong memory..." Gusalic: "…of course I remember everything very well…" And that was sufficient. The weak-minded man diagnosed himself as fit, his 'testimony' was tendered into evidence, the 'improper question' was redacted from the transcript, the Prosecution and the Chamber were happy and tra-la-la… A serious and due legal process, no question about it. Somewhere along the lines of the Alice-in-Wonderland trial.
To D.Jovanovic: You can find the article from the Washington Post titled 'How Jihad Made Its Way to Chechnya' at http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A39482-2003Apr25.html
Vera Martinovic
Belgrade
Yugoslavia - Sunday April 27, 2003 at 11:12 pm
DJThe suicide bombers were paid, enabled, and taught by the likes of Iraq. I say taking them out is on the right track.
J P
USA,Wis - Monday April 28, 2003 at 4:16 am
Rebecka Justice,When it says "unredacted" that is for the transcripts when Milan Babic testified. And yes those unredacted transcripts contain material that is not in the redacted ones.
I left both versions on the website so that they could be compared with one another.
Vera,
Thanks for your research. I think you're right. Milosevic's remark about the prosecutor "abusing the witness and getting false statements from him" could also mean that the prosecutor is taking advantage of the fact that the witness is retarded.
It is obvious from watching the video that Mr. Gusalic isn't playing with a full deck.
The whole exchange is almost amusing. Here is a man who admits going to a coffee bar with a grenade that he intends to throw at it. That by itself should call into question this man's mental state.
Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States - Monday April 28, 2003 at 5:43 am
JP stuns us all again, well he stuns me anyway, with astonishing logic and powers of analysis. He says:"The suicide bombers were paid, enabled, and taught by the likes of Iraq. I say taking them out is on the right track."
Emphasis on the phrase: " ... the likes of ... ". On that basis, recalling Tim McVeigh and the Oklahoma City bombing, "taking out" every white red-necky NRA supporting gun-lovin' ex-member of the US military who is suspicious of the US Government must also be "on the right track".
On second thoughts, JP, what am I saying, couldn't agree with you more. Sorry for wasting your time. Good thinking.
Dennis Revell
USA - Monday April 28, 2003 at 7:00 am
What an unbelievable statement Mr May has made:---" May: "I don't think he means that literally he doesn't remember his children's names or whether he forgets them from time to time. It's a common enough experience for anybody.
Is May a fool or is he just pretending to be one? Or has he just forgotten that he's supposed to be a judge rather than a prosecutor? Where does he get the nerve to even TRY to salvage a witness's testimony in that crass and obvious manner? If such comments are not indicative of bias and cause for a mistrial nothing is!
Where are all the international law experts to provide professional legal commentary on such points? Where is the legal community expressing outrage at what is going on in the name of international justice? Sitting idly by and watching the grass grow and the river flow, that's where! What an embarrassment to the human race they are. Is there no-one with any balls left in the international legal community at all? How about an open letter of protest by these so called scholars about the despicable way May is conducting this farce?
David
Australia - Monday April 28, 2003 at 7:09 am
More and more secret witnesses... no wonder! If they keep dredging out all these mental defectives they'll end up with May himself on the stand. He may have trouble remembering his wife's (or boyfriend's) name but no doubt he'd be a real asset to the Other side. Provided he appears as a secret witness and they close the sessions at the right times!
David
Australia - Monday April 28, 2003 at 7:39 am
JP
You've done it again with that logic business. LOL
Saddam supported "suicide" bombers, but who supported the "homicide" bombers in Bosnia, Croatia, Kosovo, Afghanistan, Iraq, Korea, Vietnam, Guatemala, El Salvador, Panama, Grenada, Cambodia, Laos, Haiti, Nicaragua, Costa Rica, Libya, Indonesia, Phillippines, Japan, Lebanon, Congo, Uganda, Angola, Somalia and a few dozen other places around the world in the last 50 or so years?
At least you're on the winning side mate! LOL And everybody loves a winner, or maybe not? LOL
Here's a link you won't find on Fox News. Even if half of it were right, it's a hard to beat reord:
http://free.freespeech.org/americanstateterrorism/ChronologyofTerror.html
Just so you have a clue or two for your next post, mate. :-)
David
Australia - Monday April 28, 2003 at 8:57 am
Another secret witness Mr. "C-48" who was the general manager of the Royal nightclub in Novi Sad between 1992 and 2000.Mr. "C-48" didn't have direct knowledge of anything. All of his testimony was what he says he overheard other people saying at the nightclub where he worked.
In order to testify about the things that he says he heard other people saying he had to read from notes that were allegedly based on his diary.
When asked where is the actual diary is at now he said "I would like to deal with that in closed session."
It was pathetic, this witness testifying about things he says he overheard other people saying that were written down for him in notes that Mr. Nice seemed better acquanted with than the witness. Mr. Nice was constantly telling the witness to "put your finger on this passage, so that you won't lose your place."
This idiotic witness says he "worked for the DB of Serbia," but that "they never gave him an ID card or anything." The only concrete thing he said he did was that he let some members of the DB into his friend's house so that they could plant a bug there.
If he worked for the DB how come he continued to manage that nightclub? Wouldn't bossing bus-boys and waiters around be a little bit beneath him?
But I guess if he hadn't managed that nightclub he wouldn't have been in a position to overhear all of those important "high level meetings" that were being held at the nightclub while he was there.
I have to wonder again what is the point of the protection on this witness? Everybody who worked at or was a regular at the Royal nightclub in Novi Sad during the mid to late 1990s would know who the general manager of the club was, and therefore would know the identity of the witness... that is if the witness is telling the truth about who he is.
I don't believe this guy for a second. He can't testify without reading from notes and being coached by the prosecutor. This guy is obviously just talking out of his ass.
Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States - Monday April 28, 2003 at 9:45 am
David wrote: "What an embarrassment to the human race they are. Is there no-one with any balls left in the international legal community at all?"Where are tha balls of: Professor Anthony D'Amato, Northwestern University School of Law and
Professor Marjorie Cohn, Thomas Jefferson School of Law We are approaching the first half of the game but since February 2002 i did not hear any comment from them. Isn't a bit strange ??
serjoe b
italy - Monday April 28, 2003 at 9:55 am
An interesting question at this point would be why c-48 so conscientiuosly made notes of what was said at a louncheon. Did he do that on anybodys request? And why the need to call it a 'meeting'?
Also, he said that somehow they would try to get Milosevic there, to the restaurant, but that he cuould not 'be ordered' to come!
So for what purpose? Not to meet with Stanisic and Kertes, he could speak to them at any time.
It seems rather that c-48 was some sort of double agent who was supposed to pass on what was said by people from the DB.
It is quite logical for the DB to collect information about the 'underground world'. And more logical that they had asked him to inform about the criminal activities at the club, rather than inform on his two friends as he claimes. And anyway,in the end, he seems rather to have spyed on the DB instead!
The notes (if they existed) were apparently not quite readable, and it seems like he cold now interpret them himself in any fashion that fits the prosecution.
Looking forward to the crossexamination, maybe things will be clearer then.
Ann-Marie Laios
Sollentuna
Sweden - Monday April 28, 2003 at 11:14 am
DAYou're confusing yourself. The question was 'how to deal with suicide bombers'? Not, how many countries you can name without consulting an Atlas.
As one example on your list, consider Somalia. A failed country, on TV daily, 'starving children', 'warlords', 'overworked Irish missionaries' trying to distribute food! Uncle Sam was shamed into helping and did, with loss of life. Unfortunately a character challenged president then gave us 'Blackhawk Down' and failure. He then went on to disgrace our country in the Balkans.
Disingenuous of you to muddy our history with babble.
J P
USA,Wis - Monday April 28, 2003 at 11:33 am
It looks like that they are no longer updating the Freeserbia.com Hague video-section. At least they haven't since the 16.April
Dan B
Canada - Monday April 28, 2003 at 12:27 pm
I wonder if anyone knows if May 16 stands as the date for Mr. Milosevic to begin his defense, or has the internationl troika ruled in favour of the prosecution extending their time to present their very convincing case.
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La - Monday April 28, 2003 at 12:30 pm
I read something mentioned here about American history this might be useful reading to understand such a phenomenon. HERE
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La - Monday April 28, 2003 at 12:37 pm
Thank you Ms. Martinovic for the Washington Post reference.I had to see for myself how a “national” policy has imperceptibly changed in relation to the war in Chechnia. I have a close friend whose daughter works for OSCE and who was sent to Chechnia to investigate “abuses” of Russian troops against the Chechen population. That was a year ago.
Apparently now the tune is changed. Now US understands that it is the Islamic militants who in most cases instigated the conflict.
I wonder when it will be also announced that the Bosnian Muslims were in fact supported by Islamic jihad trying, and succeeding” to establish a foothold in Europe.
D. Jovanovic
USA - Monday April 28, 2003 at 12:58 pm
JP, It would seem you are the one confusing himself.The ONLY reason the Military was sent into Somalia was to GET Aidid. We weren't Shamed into anything.
Clinton was told the forces and backup sent in would not be enough to do the 'job', but went ahead anyway. (Did you know that Aidid's son was WITH the Marines who went in???) He later went AWOL and took his daddy's place.
Isn't Democracy just grand? What other country would allow the son of the person they were going to assassinate, to travel with the assassins?
The entire story is online at http://inquirer.philly.com/packages/somalia/
Black Hawk Down by Marc Bowden
At any rate, please spare us the description of how our leaders have anything even remotely resembling a heart.
>"Uncle Sam was shamed into helping and did, with loss of life."<
David gave you a comprehensive list. Try looking at the conditions of some of those countries under the "benevolent?" wing of the United States. AL of them were better off BEFORE we tried to Democratize them.
Just the Balkans will do nicely. They had MORE rights BEFORE NATO went in. For instance, Schools in this great 'Democracy do not allow for lessons in the language of other Nationalities spoken within our borders. Yugoslavia did.
Another glaring difference. ONLY White men become President here. An Albanian was elected President of Serbia at one time... There are more. Hopefully you will do some research.......
Rebecka Justice
Portland
OR - Monday April 28, 2003 at 1:19 pm
Gogol, Great article.I especially liked this statement. "So they devised a republic in which only a very few white men of property could vote. Then, to make sure that we never had any democracy at work at the highest levels of governance, they created something called the electoral college, which can break any change that might upset them."
Once again:Ben Franklin got the IDEA of a Democracy from the Iroquois Indians, however the blueprint wasn't completely followed because the Iroquois model would NOT have allowed the Government to go to war whenever they liked.
The main reason the Iroquois had developed THEIR Democracy was to STOP whe Wars. We would do well to get back to the Indian Model.
Rebecka Justice
Portland
OR - Monday April 28, 2003 at 5:08 pm
The looting of the Baghdad museum was front-page news in the Mainstream Media. The looting by American Marines and imbedded news reporters and their shipment of stolen property back to America did not get any play on the main networks. Spoils of war I guess.Under Canadian law an accused is entitled to a public trial. In a recent case a mistrial was called when the courtroom door was locked and public was not able to get in. The lawyer asked for a mistrial stating that his client was denied a public trial and the public was denied access to justice. The judge agreed and ordered a new trial. Mr. May likes the inquisition process where you see no evil, hear no evil, and speak no evil. Mr. Jovanovic good luck on your hip replacement.
Walter Trkla
Kamloops BC
Canada - Monday April 28, 2003 at 6:25 pm
RJDavid has had some bad days and is running on an empty tank. Hope he finds a gas station soon.
How can you, living here, say our involvement was to assassinate Aidid when in reality it was to feed starving people and give them chance at freedom?
Once again , we got the idea of a Democracy by living and applying lessons learned from shortcomings of governments in history. The big jump was when the founding fathers asserted that 'freedom is a God given right', not something doled out by the government.
Much was taken from the Greeks, Romans and the English. The Indians, including the Iroquois, were scalping each other for the last 10000 yrs. When they polluted one area, they simply moved to another. Your pc Iroquois model may play well with 'first graders' but Ben was an educated man, i.e. no Indian. But lessons, I guess can also be learned from a wolf pack or goose gaggle.
GC's link to Vidal reaffirms my assessment, the guy is a shock writer, and continues being off point and a nuisance.
J P
USA,Wis - Monday April 28, 2003 at 6:52 pm
JP, How sad that your education was interrupted at such a young age. I don't have much time right now but hope you will read the information at the following 3 links. There are Many, Many, more if you don't like these.http://www.iroquoisdemocracy.pdx.edu/
http://www.ratical.org/many_worlds/6Nations/
http://w3.one.net/~mweiler/ushda/iroconst.htm
Since you feel it is acceptable to insult other posters, please accept the criticism of your lack of knowledge as an insult. :)
Rebecka Justice
Portland
OR - Monday April 28, 2003 at 7:37 pm
..."our involvement...in reality it was to feed starving people and give them chance at freedom.."What are you smoking, JP?
Give us all a break.
Anna P
California - Monday April 28, 2003 at 9:37 pm
JP, I have a few minutes so thought it best to TRY to educate you somewhat.>How can you, living here, say our involvement was to assassinate Aidid when in reality it was to feed starving people and give them chance at freedom?<
Simple, that was the reason given for going into Somalia. Of course, you may have been in outer space.....
>Once again , we got the idea of a Democracy by living and applying lessons learned from shortcomings of governments in history. The big jump was when the founding fathers asserted that 'freedom is a God given right', not something doled out by the government.<
fuunny thing is, the Governement is taking away our rights, right and left.
>Much was taken from the Greeks, Romans and the English. The Indians, including the Iroquois, were scalping each other for the last 10000 yrs. When they polluted one area, they simply moved to another. Your pc Iroquois model may play well with 'first graders' but Ben was an educated man, i.e. no Indian. But lessons, I guess can also be learned from a wolf pack or goose gaggle.<
Hopefully you have taken the time to read the Links I gave you. I am an educated woman BTW, and I AM part Indian. You might also check which people started the 'scalping'. Hint:It wasn't the Indians. They were too civilized.
>GC's link to Vidal reaffirms my assessment, the guy is a shock writer, and continues being off point and a nuisance.<
The only nuisance seems to be someone who definately doesn't know what he is talking about. He goes by the handle JP. Maybe he should joing those 'first graders'? Or better still, go back to Kindergarten. I hear you can't flunk that. :)
Rebecka Justice
Portland
OR - Monday April 28, 2003 at 10:06 pm
JP is at it again. The native people of North America learned the scalping procedure from the English. The Beothunk Indians who lived in Newfoundland were eliminated by 1750 by the English. Every Beothuk was worth fifty cents. How did you prove that you killed one? Yes JP you guessed it they took scalps. The native people paid the Europeans in kind as they were quick learners. The last Beothuk was a woman who died in the mid 18th century.When Columbus arrived the native population in the Americas was close to 100 million. They were hunted, assimilated, starved, poisoned by European diseases, and purposely infected with smallpox. First the Europeans tried to enslave them but they couldn’t catch them so thousands were killed off in the thirteen colonies for their land. By the turn of the twentieth century there were less than one million natives on the two continents. As for their intelligence taught the Europeans how to survive in the harsh environment of the New World and they were killed off for their kindness.
JP freedom was not something that Europeans brought to North America. We brought disease, slavery, alcohol and reservations as we plundered their resources just as we plunder weaker nations today.
JP America is a society of many sheep that is why they have a government of wolves. Your education system by its mediocrity breeds sheep that is why the majority of Americans were going BAAAAA as your government trampled international law.
In America 12000 people are killed annually by guns while another 12000 use guns to commit suicide. In the last twenty-five years close to 700 thousand Americans were killed by guns. That is more than was killed in all the wars America participated in the last century. JP what the hell have you got to be proud off?
Walter Trkla
Kamloops BC
Canada - Tuesday April 29, 2003 at 12:29 am
Bravo Walter! Sometimes I think the Education system in this country was PURPOSELY dumbed down so people wouldn't have enough sense to question what this Government is doing.Can I elaborate on the small Pox for Jps's benefit. You see, JP, the benevolent Government of this country gave the Indians blankets infected with Small Pox, KNOWING the Indians had no immunity, and they would die.
On another point Walter made. If the Indians hadn't taught the Whites how to live off the land, they would have all died. You REALLY need to sue the Education system that let you down so badly.
The idea of wiping out the Indian race of People began shortly after the whites arrived and has been going on every since. Check out "Wounded Knee" for an example of barbarity. Unarmed, Women, Some carrying babies)and Children running for two miles through the snow trying to escape. Very few did. Most of the men had been killed right where the massacre started, trying to give the women and children time to escape.
The bodies were left on this 2 mile square battlefield for 4 days. Think about it......
The Holy men of a lot of different Nations knew, long before Plymouth Rock, that the White men were coming and that the Indians would be finally defeated.
Now, REMEMBER, they knew this would happen hundreds of years before it did, BUT they also KNEW it will eventually be the Indians turn again. They call it the "Circle of Time."
Think about something JP. In the last 30 or 40 years, more and more people are learning the Indians were right about Mother Earth, while our Government just goes ahead with the destruction of same with Depleted Uranium, etc.,
Then, just recently, we learned that, WOW! Those Indians were right about the medicinal power of Herbs. Thank Heaven. At the rate Health Insurance is going up, very few are going to be able to afford it.
The Indian Circle of Time is likely to kick you square in the rear, JP.
Rebecka Justice
Portland
OR - Tuesday April 29, 2003 at 1:41 am
Here is how Croatian on another Forum described the testimony of a witness "C-48"Protected witness C48 (described as manager of the restaurant in Novi Sad). He was manager in the restaurant owned by Veselin Vukotic, payed by SDB for killing. Witness worked for SDB on the case "ethnic cleansing Croats from Vojvodina"...
He gave testimony about intelligence meetings in restaurant: Milovan Popivoda, Jovica Stanisic, Frenki Simatovic Mihalj Kertes, Milorad Vucelic Radovan PAnkov, Goran Hadzic, Arkan etc, etc...
At those meetings, Stanisic and Vucelic told them for planed actions by Milosevic and they actually transfered his orders to the lower levels...
He also said that Serbian intelligence sent a lot of heroin in Croatia in that time by Serbs in Orasje and Zeljko Sobot (killed in Croatia few years before in the fights between two gangs...) In the year 2000 in the Komercijalna Banka (Bank of Commerce) in Belgrade was discovered 600 kilograms of clear heroin. Action was planed to blame Albanians for heroin and to "poison Croatian Youth", who were the greatest strenght of Croatian forces. The action "heroin" was planed as part of "special war" against "enemies"... "
Is there any element of truth in this quotation?
Please help, I would want to answer this fellow.
D. Jovanovic
USA - Tuesday April 29, 2003 at 2:16 am
D. Jovanovic,C-48 didn't actually see any heroin being sent to anywhere. The only thing C-48 actually says that he did personally was to let some members of the DB into his friend's house. He didn't have any direct knowledge about anything. He says he only heard about things from other people. If memory serves he claimed to have overheard the stuff about the heroin from Jovica Stanisic.
C-48 did however say exactly what that Croat said he said. But so what? Anybody can say that they heard somebody else saying anything. I would point out that C-48 was reading from notes throughout his testimony.
Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States - Tuesday April 29, 2003 at 2:23 am
RJThe Iroquois counted pilgrims coming off ships by making notches in sticks. I don't know if they counted by twos, tens or twelves. Same with the Navajos. They really have to be admired for surviving 1000s of years and maybe for their family loyalty system, but I'm afraid that's as far as you can take it.
AP
What was our involvement IYO in Somalia?RJ
go back to Kinder Garden, I hear you can't flunk that
Well actually when I went to school there was no KG or pre school or head start. But believe it or not I did manage to flunk the 1st grade. Seems the nuns couldn't understand that little Slav kid. So I spent my first year honing english and listening. The humiliating part was that I spent the next 12 yrs of schooling in the same grade as my younger sister, who incidentally got better grades. But with persistence I did finally make it.
J P
USA.Wis - Tuesday April 29, 2003 at 2:44 am
Mr. Jovanovic, I can confirm each and every word your friend from Croacia said. It's much closer to the full and accurate picture than the report we saw here earlier. Maybe you haven't been following the news from your former homeland, but many of the things you forwarded from your Croacia friend have independent confirmation. For example, the 624 kg of heroin in a vault in Komercialna Banka is "old news" in Belgrade, as seen from the several 2001 news stories: Such as this, and this, and this... Interesting thoughts by a Belgrade journalist Milos Vasic: "The question is: What can a state security service possibly do with 660 kilograms of pure heroin? Heroin has only one purpose, which is to be sold on the street and make children die.... The only conclusion I can make is that some big drug dealers were running this country and that the state security service is a drug cartel with free use of some 660 kilograms of heroin they intended to sell...."
Francisco Vasquez Garcia
Almeria
ESP - Tuesday April 29, 2003 at 3:01 am
JP, It is Kindergarten. All one word, and not a 'garden'.I had wondered why you chose 'first grade' in the first place. Now I see. ;) There was also the fact that you never mentioned the name of the guy we were after in Somalia until I did. Aidid!
Actually I could give you a couple of more insights into your character, but it is a waste of time since you are obviously trying to downgrade it as we converse.
For someone who denigrates the Educational level of Indians, you sure don't seem to be doing too well in that category yourself. Ever heard the old saying, "he who lives in a glass house should not throw stones"?
Rebecka Justice
Portland
OR - Tuesday April 29, 2003 at 3:31 am
Mr. Jovanovic, will you please share the link to other forum you mentioned? I am interested in comments regarding UN meeting on Kosovo status and current balkan situation. Jari, you are missed!
c l
USA - Tuesday April 29, 2003 at 5:12 am
A few facts about C-48:1. He was convicted and served prison time for armed robery.
2. He did not receive a salary or any identification materials from the DB of Serbia. So it looks like he never actually worked for them.
3. He is a Croatian Citizen.
4. He claims to have been the director of the Royal Casino/Nightclub in Novi Sad, but his name never appears on any of the registration documents for that business.
C-48 says that somebody else, a 3rd person, was listed as the director of the Royal because if the Government of Serbia were to find out about the massive tax evasion that the Royal was engaged in he as its director could get in trouble.
C-48 also said that tax evasion was normal and that they got away with it because of their "connections" so what was the point of putting somebody else's name on the registration forms if "tax evasion was not a crime" and "normal in Serbia" as C-48 claims?
Special Note: I don't know how much of this will make it into the transcripts because the prosecutor is asking for things to be redacted and Judge May has told the media and the public not to publish the information that C-48 is a convicted criminal who served time in prison and that he is a Croatian citizen.
Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States - Tuesday April 29, 2003 at 5:20 am
So C48 is yet another petty criminal out to make a name for himself as if he were Joe Valachi or someone of importance. The private session is merely supposed to protect us from the fact that he was a nobody, thereby lending greater "weight" to his evidence.What with all the janitors, cleaners, barmen and high calibre figures the Other Side has been presenting, May should have no problem in coming up with the appropriate verdict.
Given the number of PRIVATE SESSIONS recently, just about every witness has had extensive protection from May not with respect to their IDENTITY but regarding their evidence and credibility, this has turned into a nice little PRIVATE TRIAL instead of the originally envisaged PUBLIC one!
Key evidence is being suppressed from the public arena and is dealt with in secret by so called "professionals". Good for you, May! You finally worked out how to get the right verdict without a public fiasco and much public embarrassment. Secret evidence, secret hearings, secret witnesses followed by public judgements and public sentences!
Is there no one who can rid us of this meddlesome idiot? The pervert is corrupting the course of justice. Or is it the corrupt perverting the course of justice?
What say you to all this legal scholars and guardians of the justice process?
David
Australia - Tuesday April 29, 2003 at 5:29 am
Rebecka:The Wehrmacht and Luftwaffe were most certainly "ordinary soldiers", the Wehrmacht just meaning the armed forces of (NAZI) Germany, renamed from the Reichswehr in 1935, the Luftwaffe being the air-arm, like the USAF. The SS? Well, I don't think it's completely unreasonable to at least roughly equate them to Special Forces.
I have made it very clear that in my view, the primary and main blame goes to the policital "leaders". All else that I tried to do was try to give the viewpoint of an aggressed-against people, including their aggressed-against armed forces, who are also people. A viewpoint that I find reasonable. Why should they give a hoot about the fact that the US military largely comprises people who otherwise would get no or inadequate health-care and ditto for education? And that that is indeed one of the main reasons that people join the US military?
It's surely up to more educated and reasonable people to rebel and change this situation, and not, as you seem to imply that I think, that it is all the fault of young gullible kids who decide to "GO ARMY!". I regard that situation, by the way, as the purposeful structuring of "society" to ensure several very cynical ends, not least of which is to ensure a plentiful supply of personnel to the US's voracious military; whilst at the same time being able to make the useful PR claim that "it's an all volunteer force".
I believe that some of those more educated and reasonable people used to be called Democrats, but as Tim Robbins characterised in his recent brilliant speech at the Press Club (shown by C-SPAN): "Where have all the Democrats gone?"; even managing to cover the earlier Yugoslavia situation by continuing: "Long time passing."
You say later: "This is not to say there are not going to be a few like Lt. Calley in any given war, ... ". Well, on the evidence, there are possibly more than a few, but even then, there doesn't have to be more than a few, if they are in command positions:-
OVERWHELMING FORCE - What happened in the final days of the Gulf War? (Seymore Hersh, New Yorker, May 22, 2000, pp. 49-82)
This isn't the Vietnam War, it's Gulf War I. Who can say what atrocities will be revealed in 10 years time concerning Gulf War II?
You go on to say: " ... but having met a great many GIs while living in Colo. Spgs., I guess I got a little different opinion of these "paid killers".". Your use of double-quotes around the words paid killers is lost on me. That they are killers is indiputable, even if they haven't killed on command yet, they would if ordered. They are also paid. Paid Killers needs no double-quote marks.
"IMO, It is also debatable whether or not the US is a Democracy"
Not very debatable, in my view. The US absolutely is not a democracy. Unless that word were to be redefined as a system where "elections" are held based on lies and huge distortions, inflicted on a population a large proportion of which are purposely "nurtured" to have poor education and deficient powers of analysis, and worked too hard to boot ("Arbeit Macht Frei"), lies and distortions promulgated by Corporation bought-and-paid for "parties", and supported by the also Corporation owned mainstream media. ... etc ...
You say: "Dennis, You are entitled to your opinion. I will keep mine.". Fair enough. Small steps. At least you made a start, after you were relieved of the "Frei" that all that "Arbeit" was providing to you, of course.
"The way I look at it, we NEEDED those ORDINARY soldiers during WWII. We still do! No country can disband their Military and hope to survive. I reserve my wrath for those who 'use' those kids so dishonorably."
Of course. But the reason is that Governments world-wide have chosen universal militarism over universal education, none ever more so than the USA. In proportion to what weighting they have given to this choice, they are all traitors to their own people, whom they would prefer to send out and kill and be killed, rather than educate them all, or substantially. Any idea of universal demilitarisation, as intimated by the Einstein quote I gave earlier, falls apart if just one country decides not to comply. It's somewhat beyond my imagination that an intelligent man asked by someone else to go out and kill for them, and risk getting killed in turn, would comply. Sensible response? YOU FIRST (Dubya/Tony - takes yer pick).
Fair point about WW II, of course. If those in the German (and similarly for Japan and Italy) military had decided to use more intelligence than, to paraphrase Einstein, a spinal cord would fully suffice in providing ("having been given a large brain by mistake"), then, however, they would have told Hitler/Mussolini and Hirohito: "YOU FIRST, and sling your hooks", and the horrors of WW II would not have occurred.
In regard to the current and seemingly perpetual jingoistic war-drum beating of the US, it's ironic that Rumsfeld made his scathing reference to "Old Europe". The fact is the US's power elite are primarily white European descended (ask Russell Means), and quite clearly haven't learned the lessons and aversion to War, at least when cavalierly started, that all the horrors and spilled blood endured by the real "Old Europe" have taught them. The USA IS "Old Europe", in the very worst possible way: Colonialist exploitative, militarily brutal Old Europe. That's your homework for the week, JP, an essay expanding on this theme. On second thoughts, take the rest of the year.
As there seems to be a bit of a "hit" here on Indian themes (no PC BS, PLEASE), in relation to the previous paragraph, as Russell Means says, not that I necessarily agree with him on everything, (before I'm accused of doing so): FOR AMERICAN TO LIVE, EUROPE MUST DIE!
Dennis Revell
USA - Tuesday April 29, 2003 at 6:06 am
Maybe some of the GIs should fight for their rights to education and work in the US rather than for the right to go abroad and fight and kill others who are even less privileged. Maybe it's just easier to bomb and shoot barefoot Somalis and Afghans than it is to fight for one's basic rights in the US? Spare me the sad luck stories about how the GIs are there for an education and for work reasons.If you're going to fight, fight for the right things that should belong to YOU in your own country, not for things that belong to someone else in someone else's country!
You awake JP? LOL
David
Australia - Tuesday April 29, 2003 at 9:28 am
Free to be ResponsibleRussell Means
Dennis Revell
USA - Tuesday April 29, 2003 at 9:53 am
C-48 and his diary is a lovely case.Mr. C-48 allegedly kept a diary but there is no proof that he ever had a diary.
Instead of the actual diary itself C-48 had notes that he had allegedly transcribed from the diary.
When asked if he could obtain the actual diary itself Mr. C-48 requested to go into private session. When they came out of private session it was apparent that the diary had been conveniently "destroyed."
To make matters more interesting C-48 wrote his notes on another diary which caused Mr. Kwon to wonder if Mr. C-48 had been attempting to make his notes look like the alleged "original diary" that was conveniently "destroyed."
C-48 said that he heard Milosevic talking about the alleged "greater Serbia plan." So Milosevic asked on what date he had heard him saying this. C-48 explained that he didn't write any dates in his diary and so he didn't know when Milosevic was there, but he thought it was some time in late March of 1993.
Unfortunately, for Mr. C-48 Milosevic was never in Novi Sad in March of 1993 and so C-48 could not have heard Milosevic saying anything in Novi Sad in March of 1993 because Milosevic wasn't there to say it.
C-48 lied about being an DB agent since he was never employed by the service. He never got an identifiaction document from them and he never got paid by them.
C-48 lied about even having a diary in the first place. Why should somebody make notes from a document and then destroy the original document? It's just too stupid to be true.
C-48 is a criminal, but every time the topic turned to C-48's criminal past the so-called "trial" went into closed session. Why should it be a secret that C-48 is a criminal? We don't even know who C-48 is! So what difference does it make that he is a criminal? The only point of going into closed session is to deny information to the public that has bearing on the credibility of the witness.
They also went into closed session each time the destruction of C-48's alleged diary came up. Why should the circumstances surrounding that be a secret? Did his dog eat it, is his explanation so stupid that the tribunal was afraid of being embarassed?
In a nutshell C-48 was a secret witness, with a criminal past who testified about things that he claims to have heard other people saying. The basis for his testimony came from a diary that he wrote in but no longer has. All he has is some notes that he says he copied out of the alleged diary and that is where his testimony comes from.
Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States - Tuesday April 29, 2003 at 11:04 am
A Racak which did not make the news in today's (US) press.
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La - Tuesday April 29, 2003 at 11:07 am
The troika has approved the prosecution phase of the trial to last for 55 working days longer. Just the amount of working days lost due to Mr. Milosevic illness. The prosecution asked for their phase to be extended to the end of this year (2003). Until now this was denied. Judging form the deteriorating quality of witnesses one would wonder why the prolongation of the trial is needed at all.
Pera Bora
Ottawa
Canada - Tuesday April 29, 2003 at 11:21 am
I doubt they have enough witnesses to fill so many days. But you never know blind and mute witnesses are next!
I assume 55 more days brings us to after the summer recess.
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La - Tuesday April 29, 2003 at 11:48 am
Dennis,Fair point about WW II, of course. If those in the German (and similarly for Japan and Italy) military had decided to use more intelligence than, to paraphrase Einstein, a spinal cord would fully suffice in providing ("having been given a large brain by mistake"), then, however, they would have told Hitler/Mussolini and Hirohito: "YOU FIRST, and sling your hooks", and the horrors of WW II would not have occurred.
Mighty big IF, since your scenario never happened. Of course it would be better for all if ALL people decided they weren't going to have armies.
Since that is NOT going to happen, I have to wonder what your alternative is?
I learned a long time ago that one shouldn't lump an entire people, or even a group of people under, as having some trait or other. To decide that all of these kids are only in this to do some killing is ludicrous.
It is great to look at it from the point of view that IF all the kids of all the countries would just say NO, there would be no war. I agree! Trouble is, realistically, that is NOT going to happen.
I would be the happiest person on earth IF war came to an end. In my estimation, the people of America are not much better off than were the people of Nazi Germany prior to and during WWII. Instead of the Jews, Roma, etc., this country is trying to exterminate the Indians. The only consolation is that to date, this country hasn't gotten it's extermination techniques refined to the extent Germany did.
To make a bunch of kids the scapegoats, when the Educated people of this country can't get their act together and just say NO, is unfair to say the least. You know we are wrong in these "actions". To claim that these kids should also know, is riduculous.
Too many people with far more education than most of these kids, have bought the Administration line. The young men and women of this country have been lied to all of their lives. The educated people allow this to continue. If those kids had understood the lie and refused to fight in WWII, the Nazis (So much more advanced in extermination techniques) would have rid this country of all but blue eyed blondes by now.
As far as Russel Means is concerned, he did what he had to do to keep his people from being exterminated. I agree with his tactics 100%. He had no other choice if the people of Pine Ridge were to survive.
I can even understand that there are people who feel there should be no war at all. If this were a perfect world, there would be none. Unfortunately, this is not a perfect world.
Finally, it doesn't make one whit of difference whether the Republicans or Democrats are in power. Never has. Never will. We need to get back to the Iroquois model of Democracy.
Rebecka Justice
Portland
USA - Tuesday April 29, 2003 at 3:24 pm
I am not sure how nany of you have read the testimony of Professor of law (Osgoode Law School) Michael Mandel in the House of Commons Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Relations. If you have not it is well worth the time and can be found at http://news.serbianunity.net/bydate/2000/Feb_24/10.html
Walter Trkla
Kamloops BC
Canada - Tuesday April 29, 2003 at 5:48 pm
Thanks Vera for posting your report(s).
AP V
up at the Lake this week
NY - Tuesday April 29, 2003 at 8:05 pm
For the first time I was able to try to browse the video archives. If it weren't so sad I would laugh. Choosing randomly among transcripts, I've watched three and so far have yet to SEE a witness! They are all blurry cubed transmission identified by numbers. God help S. Milosevic
Nicole J
Canada - Wednesday April 30, 2003 at 4:20 am
Francisco,Are we talking about the same heroin here?
C-48's claim was that Heroin was to be sold in Croatia at below market value so that Croatian soldiers and youth would become junkies and be less inclined to fight.
This Heroin you are talking about was in those vaults 5 years after the war and in the articles you posted it says that the Heroin was intended to be sold in the West for a profit.
It seems like different heroin with a different purpose dosen't it?
At any rate C-48 didn't participate in any of the drug trafficking himself. He says he only heard about it from other people. So his testimony is just hearsay anyway.
Given the fact that the media was writing about some unaccounted for heroin found in those vaults it is possible that C-48 only heard about it from the media and concocted this story of his for the benefit of the prosecutor.
Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States - Wednesday April 30, 2003 at 5:24 am
Gogol,
No doubt there will be a new batch of witnesses coming from the martial law situation in Belgrade. Something along the lines of: go to the Hague and give them this spiel which is specially prepared for you or you go straight to jail, do not pass go and do not collect $200.
If May REALLY wanted to speed up the trial, he could vet the witness list and eliminate crap such as C48 and the last 4 or 5 witnesses who had NOTHING to say but what they allegedly HEARD from bar conversations and at the local markets. He must be so thoroughly embarrassed by the Prosecution's efforts he's even had to go out on the limb and censor information from the public to protect the witnesses' and the Prosecution's credibility.
If I were May I'd allow another 55 hours rather than 55 days. What a waste of time and space these guys Nice and May are! And if I were Soros and Co, I'd insist on getting my money back from them.
David
Australia - Wednesday April 30, 2003 at 6:09 am
David
If I were May (NATO) Slobodan Milosevic will be free long time ago.
If I were Soros, I think I will be a beggar in Jakarta or perhaps kill myself.
Queen's Day in Holland is celebrated but May Day is not by the ICTY UN Court. A telling story.
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La - Wednesday April 30, 2003 at 7:40 am
Soros and Co are miffed about not getting their money's worth - and Djindic's assasination shows just how upset they are !
AP V
NY
NY - Wednesday April 30, 2003 at 10:37 am
Soros was probably really happy to hear about how the regional chairman of the Association for Independent Media in Novi Sad gambled away the money that he was given by the U.S. Embassy and the Soros Foundation at C-48's casino."Independent media" is an interesting term. I had always understood independent to mean not requiring or relying on others. How can something be considered "independent" if it requires funds from George Soros and the American Embassy in order to function?
Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States - Wednesday April 30, 2003 at 12:57 pm
Andy The information you talking about is interesting. Did not know that Isakov has been in ANEM and that he has gambling problem. It is not much likely that Isakov worked for DB but they did blackmail on him. Stanisic knew everything. If there will be man who will hurt Milosevic at Hague it will be Stanisic. If Stanisic will go to Hague western media will say same thing and of course forget many stupid witnesses but with Milosevic own connections with officials giving information cut whole situation in Serbia has made Milosevic life more difficult.Somebody said something about Oric. Oric same Oric who was once bodyguard of Milosevic. Au company Sloba keeps! But as Nico V (or is it T?) Slobas PR man at ICDSM says at Jared Israel webpage, Sloba only met Legija one time, when Legija came to arrest him. (Very strange because we all saw Sloba and Legija on tape and unless I made mistake Sloba did not say it was fake).
Im hope that Kathryn has not been upset by critisism. If it is worth anything my own opinion is similar to rest of people here on military point but same time if Kathryn comes from military family it makes possible to understand her view. What is not necessary is for group of people to all put boot in in such a way. Concern other point made by Vera. It was just picture or example not something Vera personally believe in my opinion.
But to make more point is about to be open. As is subject from before as someone here said to me. If you say your view about something then people go for you. At the same time same people will not express positive view but only criticise. Vera's letters are not imo meant most to put case for something but case against something. This is good but what about other ones who post here? Do they exist only to criticise and not to say their own view because they afraid or because they dont have view?
Arandjel P V
Srbija - Wednesday April 30, 2003 at 1:23 pm
Arandjel P V.Please get somebody to translate/edit your thoughts into a cohesive text. I for one can not understand you at all!
D Jovanovic
USA - Wednesday April 30, 2003 at 2:42 pm
Mr Jovanovic Even with my bad English its not so hard to understand.To clarify Oric was bodyguard of Milosevic.
Stanisic if he goes to Hague it will be a problem for Milosevic also that information stopped to reach Milosevic after assasination.
Nico V, spin doctor for Milosevic at E.C. website makes claim that Milosevic met Legija only one time. It is rubbish as we know. Only hope other people at E.C. are more honest.
Because of Kathryn background I would hope people would be more understanding of her position.
Finally no respect to people who only criticise when somebody puts opinion. Much more respect to someone who has courage to say their opinion even if I disagree with them.
Arandjel P V
Srbija - Wednesday April 30, 2003 at 3:30 pm
Arandjel,A forum discussion is precisely that -- a discussion. This means that one person says something and someone else responds to it and then someone responds to that, and so on and so forth. I don't understand your distinctions between someone declaring an opinion and someone else responding negatively, as you call it, to that opinion. That ("negative") opinion is also an opinion. What's this fine-toothed comb you are drawing through the discussions? Nobody wanted to attack Kathryn, but many people did not agree with her on one or two issues that she often repeated. Are they not supposed to say ANYTHING? Just let it pass? I think you are barking up the wrong tree if you have criticisms of this forum. You didn't die or anything because you were criticized in what you intially said. In fact we hashed it out, which was all to the good, and you know that you are as welcome here as anyone else. We all have something to learn in the discussions. If someone's opinion is looked upon unfavorably, then either that person can change our minds, if the opinion is valid enough, or others can change his or her original opinion. What is so bad about that? Nothing.
Anna P
California - Wednesday April 30, 2003 at 4:40 pm
Talking about 'negative' comments, and George Soros:== George Soros ==
Billionaire
Humanitarian
Philanthropist
Leading Luminary of the Helsinki Human Rights Groups
The man who broke the Bank of England, Portugal, Malaysia, and apparently wherever the hell he wants to.
Total Bastard
TED KOPPEL: "... I mean if you could have profited by destroying Malaysia's currency, would you have shrunk from that?"GEORGE SOROS: "Not necessarily because that would have been an unintended consequence of my action. And it's not my job as a participant to calculate the consequences ..." Copyright © ABC News
... and ...
Soros makes no bones about the interventionist nature of his role in Ukraine. At one point, he remarked, jocularly, "If this isn't meddling in the affairs of a foreign nation, I don't know what is!" ...Connie Bruck, The World According to Soros, The New Yorker, 23 Jan '95, p. 70.
Allegations that the (Soros') China Fund was a tool of the CIA surfaced in '87: Washington post 8/8/89 a4
http://web.inter.nl.net/users/Paul.Treanor/HRW.html (who is HRW?)
Sorry it all this is too negative, you'all.
;-)
Dennis Revell
USA - Wednesday April 30, 2003 at 5:15 pm
Arandjel I hope you are wrong about Milosevic’s sources being silenced. NATO vs. Milosevic is hardly a fair trial. I wish you could be more specific in your posts and provide evidence for what you write. Most of what you say is hearsay or innuendo or he said she said.You seem to insinuate “Kathryn comes from military family it makes possible to understand her view”. Does that mean than that her view should be accepted? I don’t think so! Your views and anyone else on this forum must be able to defend their position with evidence just like Milosevic is doing with those false witnesses. Do you expect him to treat them with kid gloves just because they are old or mentally challenged? Milosevic from what I have seen so far is been more of a Gentleman than any of the witnesses brought against him. He is being tried for defending Yugoslavia against illegal aggression and if he did not do that his own people for the same thing would have tried him. He is on trial for political reasons, by an illegal court and by a judge who is a fool and a prosecutor who is a liar. Under these conditions most men would have told Mr. May to kiss his you know what but that tells you something about Milosevic that he is a better man than those who are his persecutors.
Walter Trkla
Kamloops BC
Canada - Wednesday April 30, 2003 at 11:46 pm
Well said Mr. Trkla!
D. Jovanovic
USA - Wednesday April 30, 2003 at 11:48 pm
I am following the events in Iraq and wondering. Does anybody sees the parallel with the events in Kosovo? For example American soldiers fired into civilian demonstrators killing twelve and wounding three dozen on one ocassion and shortly thereafter in another city killed two and wounded eleven.
Now In Kosovo , let us take Racak. Three an armed combatants killed five policemen and the troops retaliated in an armed fight lasting a day. The outcome, some forty people killed and not established whether these were combatants.
The outcome: In the first case it is explained to the American people that soldiers fired in self defense. They were fired upon. And the whole incident is more or less brushed aside.
In Racak, where there was clearly an armed conflict the situation was declared a “massacre”. The American “official” William Walker, a diplomat, brazenly called that an unspeakable crime.
D. Jovanovic
USA