 MILOSEVIC TRIAL DISCUSSION ARCHIVE |
| JURIST >> LEGAL NEWS - WORLD LAW >> Discussion >> Milosevic Trial Discussion Archive |
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Former Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic is on trial for war crimes in the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia at The Hague. This marks the first time a head of state has been personally prosecuted before an international criminal court.
Is Slobodan Milosevic getting a fair trial?
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- discussion archive
- Monday August 11, 2003 at 1:59 am
John Marat, I am watching "what I get" - aware of the need for care."It is already clear...that in their third text on Ramsey Clark on June 14, 2003 Varkevisser and Israel stated that Ramsey Clark had been removed as co-Chair of the ICDSM by Milosevic," you claim, - maybe a little too crudely (August 10, 2003 at 10:09 pm).
What in fact Varkevisser and Israel wrote, was this: "He (Ramsey Clark) was removed following a decision reached with the agreement of President Milosevic."
So...was it "by" or "with the agreement of" the President?
Maybe not quite? Or not at all?
Many of us cannot know of course! I certainly can't. While you may indeed be right in your assumptions, I wonder what you do know? Actually I was asking for clarification, John Marat - and in fact several "trial discussion" participants were doing just that. I don't think any of us have an interest in mere "speculation", - which could be endless.
At the suggestion of Andy Wilcoxson I send Varkevisser the OPEN LETTER requesting clarification (August 06, 2003 at 4:43 pm). Was that maybe not the right thing to do, you think? Well, - Varkevisser would know!
Godfred Louis-Jensen
Copenhagen
D E N M A R K - Monday August 11, 2003 at 2:57 am
Godfred Louis-Jensen keeps insisting that nobody clearly stated that Clark had been removed. But as he knows, there are at least a half dozen references in the Jurist archives from mid to end of June regarding Clark's removal. One person disputed his removal - that was Dan B. who wrote: on Monday June 23, 2003 at 1:07 am
"The Interview of Clark for the JUNGE Welt, was send around By Vladimir Krsljanin. So can anyone clarify why ICDSM is no longer connected with Clark, but www.sloboda.org.yu is sending this interview.."- Dan B.
To which I then replied: "Monday June 23, 2003 at 1:25 am To Dan B - Regarding why Mr. Krsljanin would post an interview with Ramsey Clark after Mr. Milosevic has removed Clark from his position at ICDSM, wouldn't the best person to ask to ask be Mr. Krslanin?" John Marat
Since it WAS clearly stated that Clark was removed, and since Krsljanin never objected, as he surely would have objected if the assertion was a lie, did not object on the Jurist, nor on Sloboda, nor on the icdsm.org website, it is obvious that the assertion is true.
www.icdsm.org is down, but you can still see the membership list as it was changed at the end of May at the mirrored site, www.icdsm.com Clark is reduced to being just a member http://www.icdsm.com/FreeSlobodanMilosevic.htm
John Marat
USA - Monday August 11, 2003 at 8:23 am
"MED LOV SKAL LAND BYGGES"These are the very first words of the introduction to an ancient Law ("Jyske Lov") given by the Danish King Valdemar II in 1241 and (partly) still operational in Denmark untill about 1900 (the meaning being: Society must be build on the Law).
Dear Peter Taylor, - right! Ref. your August 10, 2003 at 2:05 pm: I regret (if) being too "loose in my statements", - it is no excuse of course, that I am no "anglophone" (but when the rest of the World has gotten command of the Danish language, then the situation will improve). We might pick up the Serb language all of us (incl. Judge May of course!) - in order to secure that mr. Milosevic is getting a fair trial?
Ref. your August 06, 2003 at 12:11 am: How do you (build a bridge to) guide him to (see) the truth (of the Kosovo debacle)? Well, - I believe that YOU are (and have consistingly been) doing very well in suggesting (useful) questions: "Do anyone know if that is true?" In fact I know no other way, really (one point is of course to make other people ask the questions themselves (as suggested by M. Donne in a posting on August 04, 2003 at 11:26 pm).
Many others have been contributing. In consequence and with reference to John Marat's suggestion, that "there are...references in the Jurist archives...regarding Clark's removal" (and his assumption, that I "know") may I say: This "trial discussion" material is now very rich indeed, - in fact I do believe, that "it is all there". No stone seems (to me) to have been left untouched - over a very wide field indeed (I came across the following the other day: "Friday May 03, 2002 at 3:08 am. Let me mention some of the most salient points...We have come a long way from the question if Milosevic gets a fair trial. Jari Nousiainen, Finland").
What is (in my opinion) urgently required to get the full use of this "trial discussion references" is drawing summary conclusions. Should I maybe also "know" whether that is being taken care of? I don't, I am afraid (but I cannot exclude the possibility, that it is being taken care of anyway).
Excuse me for this "short-hand writing", but it is the same thing with the "trial" itself: It is all there in the transcripts "allready". The conclusions are there, - ready to be drawn! And here it is quite clear that mr. Milosevic will be taking care of that, - it is the President's defense.
Godfred Louis-Jensen
Copenhagen
D E N M A R K - Monday August 11, 2003 at 11:26 am
Guesswork:Did Dan B. take John Marat's advise (of June 23, 2003 at 1:25 am) to consult mr. Krsljanin - prior to stating (on August 01, 2003 at 12:09 am) that:
"I (Dan B.) guess Ramsey Clark is back!"
Godfred Louis-Jensen
Copenhagen
D E N M A R K - Monday August 11, 2003 at 1:32 pm
No I did not. We do know that he is back, the question we are dealing with now, Godfred, is if Milosevic knows he is back.
Dan B
Canada - Monday August 11, 2003 at 2:02 pm
I dont believe we can take the silence of Krsljanin on the subject of whether Clark is removed or not as confirmation that he was.If we were to apply this to the Milosevic trial - as the prosecution hopes the analogy would apply to all the 'evidence' presented against Milosevic that he does not address. Milosevic will refute the evidence presented against him in due course. Will Krsljanin?
If you also apply trial logic to what participants not directly involved in decision making have said here. Well it is all heresay. John Marat, Dan B or Godred knows nothing more than the rest of us but it is clear that some support one part of the ICDSM. I think most people are only interested in justice but perhaps Im wrong. If this isnt about justice but about something else then perhaps the fight for that kind of justice is better off without me.
Clarification is becoming more urgent by the post. What we dont need is gung ho Lieutenants going into bat for their own team.
Alf Bentley
UK - Monday August 11, 2003 at 3:16 pm
I, for myself,would just like to know what is going on. Was CLark removed by Milosevic, and if so, why is he back as chairman
Dan B
Canada - Monday August 11, 2003 at 4:36 pm
Alf, whoever that is, says:"I don't believe we can take the silence of Krsljanin on the subject of whether Clark is removed or not as confirmation that he was.If we were to apply this to the Milosevic trial - as the prosecution hopes the analogy would apply to all the 'evidence' presented against Milosevic that he does not address. Milosevic will refute the evidence presented against him in due course. Will Krsljanin?"
The comparison is absurd. Krsljanin is closely associated with Clark's IAC. He calls criticism of Clark "gangsterism" and grounds for expulsion from the ICDSM. Obviously if Clark had been falsely removed as co-Chairman, as he was right ON THE ICDSM WEBSITE, Krsljanin would have thrown a fit -as when he wrote, regarding Wilcoxson's criticisms of Clark, that "This effort by destructive elements is nothing less than a form of political gangsterism" and so on. Yet he said nothing about the removal of Clark. Why? Because he was afraid of how Milosevic might reeact.
Milosevic is selective in responding to THOUSANDS of documents brought by the Tribunal. Krsljanin is silent in regard to one single statement - that Clark was removed. Krsljanin's ally, Klaus Hartmann, wrote in his original draft of their proposed rules for the ICDSM, that President Milosevic had told him that "one president might be more adequate for the International Committee, otherwise including just members." This was Hartmann's half-honest way of admitting that Milosevic did not want Clark restored.
Obviously if Israle and Varkevesser had lied, all hell would have broken loose. The truth is, the antagonists here are not Israle and Varkevesser vs. Krsljanin. They are Clark vs. Milosevic. The covert US operative who works through the Islamic fundamentalists trying to take control of the public face of the man who has resisted the fundamentalists secretly sponsored by the US. If Krsljanin/Clark win, the Bosnian Serbs will have been killed twice. By the way, in case someone from Emperor's Clothes is reading this, a leader of gama al-Islamya was just arrested for terrorism in Bosnia. Why doesn't EC write about this??? (Gama'a is Clark's beloved group, led by Sheikh Rahman.)
John Marat
USA - Monday August 11, 2003 at 4:57 pm
Milosevic is a convicted man. I believe the ICSDM would be the first to admit that. Why do we need the ICDSM then? Just a simple question. Hypocrisy isn't necessarily limited to those who want to convict Milosevic.Milosevic is falsely accused, but does that make him perfect? Mr Krsljanin keeps silent, but maybe he feels it his duty to defend Milosevic, who may have given mixed signals. We know that Ramsey Clark has been in direct contact with Milosevic, because this is what A.W. objects to: "I am especially concerned with the direct personal involvement of Mr. Ramsey Clark with President Milosevic."
Milosevic's wishes may not be so easy to decipher as some SPS partisans would like, and Mr Krsljanin may have good reasons to keep his mouth shut. That is just the impression I have got.
On the other hand, I have difficulty accepting that someone who has written two open letters suddenly retreats to diplomatic silence when he is called to account for his statements. Besides, Ramsey Clark is not the first one to be accused of being a US agent. I believe the first one was Jared Israel, so there may be many levels to this question.
J W
Canada - Monday August 11, 2003 at 5:09 pm
First........a inappropriate discussion consumes a lot of space here on a different foreign policy matterNow..........there seems to a be too much effort spent on the ICSM internal squabble.
Note to all....this site is trolled by many neutralist and not-so neutralist people of influence.........if you feel then need to air dirty linen in cyber space....please do it on a site which affords more privacy.
thks
AP V
NY
NY - Monday August 11, 2003 at 6:23 pm
I'm afraid your right AP. This rambling on of every idle thought is pointless and in most ways counterproductive.Trolls usually show themselves, and can be flush out in the open by pushing the right buttons if one wishes to confirm that which is already strongly suspected.
It's pointless however unless you have enough evidence to clearly convince the majority of these good hearted people.
joel aksamit
USA - Monday August 11, 2003 at 6:24 pm
AP V: Yes, - but the request for clarification appear to be justified by the need for financing the defence...If boring, that is still a legitimate aspect of 'trial fairness', isn't it?
As for people trolling - what is the alternative?
Godfred Louis-Jensen
Copenhagen
Denmark - Monday August 11, 2003 at 6:50 pm
Regardless of Milosevic being found guilty or not I am pleased that this false trial is taking place. At least now we know what is truth and what propaganda. For years Serbs were demonized for "alleged" crimes( like demolishing Dubrovnik). But now we know what happened there, what happened in Kosovo (Racak) and I can not wait to hear his de fence on Srebrenica. So trial did have a purpose. Now after all these years I can say to anybody (CNN, BBC SKY) on big Serbian sod off.
Dakic Ana
Serbia - Tuesday August 12, 2003 at 6:32 am
Trolls such as those who have a serious problem with muslums. Or trolls who support a political party (Socialst Party of Serbia) or an odd philosphy or agenda. (the god of lost causes and / or an agent in disguise?)Yes, there are trolls within the group supporting justice for Milosevic but there are trolls within every group. And its not dirty linen. That suggests something to hide and I would like to think that there is no reason to hide anything. This is not a political party and there is no reason (for us jurist participants) to present a united front.
The most important thing is that the ICDSM is united and transparant so we can be sure that Milosevic is getting the support he deserves. For some months Ive heard the rumours about people visiting him and misinforming him but it amused me because he can run rings around these kinds of people as he has done most of his life. Now I seriously wonder what he is being told.
Alf Bentley
UK - Tuesday August 12, 2003 at 10:45 am
Although not from Serbia, like Dakic Ana I am looking forward to mr. Milosevic's defence.For all the ICTY's falseness this "trial" has indeed been serving a useful purpose: I read Dakic Ana's poster (August 11, 2003 at 6:50 pm) as a very positive summary conclusion.
Now after all these years "we" know what happened! We know what is the truth about "Kosovo", - not least with regard to the incident at the village of Racak in January 1999, - which was used as an excuse for NATO's war.
As there is no way mr. Milosevic could be found guilty as charged, I cannot be exactly pleased with this false trial. But since it is taking place anyway, disregarding our joint efforts, I applaud Dakic Ana's conclusion and do suggest, that once mr. Milosevic's defence begins this "trial discussion" be both renamed and reframed:
Is NATO getting a fair trial?
Godfred Louis-Jensen
Copenhagen
D E N M A R K - Tuesday August 12, 2003 at 3:25 pm
Milosevic's trial is important not because it is a real trial of his innocence or guilt but because he is using it as a platform to bring out & disprove all the allegations made against Yugoslavia. I do not think the Nato leaders can be looking forward to Milosevic getting to put the "defence" case. There are strong parallels here with the trial Petain made of various left wing French politicans whom he accused of undermining France & thus letting in Hitler. The trial had to be halted because the defendents were easily able to show that Petain & the French military had a stonger case to answer. I am certain Milosevic is well aware of the precedent. I suspect clinton & co weren't he would never have reached court.
Neil Craig
UK - Tuesday August 12, 2003 at 6:18 pm
Imperial nation building in the Balkans gone astray:http://www.nytimes.com/2003/08/12/international/europe/12MONT.html?ex=1061723784&ei=1&en=7261b03f1521def7
Peter Varavejke
Belgium - Tuesday August 12, 2003 at 6:38 pm
Why is Milosevic on trial?According to the indictments: principally and specifically for the deaths of under 600 Kosovar civilians during “a brutal crackdown” on KLA terrorists - including Mujahedin backed by al-Qaeda - in Serbia’s sovereign state of Kosovo: Although it is not known with any certainty who killed these people and how they had been killed let alone if Milosevic had ordered or condoned these killings. The fraudulent added charges of Genocide in Bosnia and Croatia - areas for which Milosevic as President of Serbia had no command responsibility and for which he had been commended for his influence as a peacemaker four years earlier - were added later when the intended charge of Genocide in Kosovo had to be dropped for lack of evidence.
Why are Blair and Bush not on trial?
According to various reports more than 600 Iraqi civilians have been killed by Anglo/US forces - so far - during their brutal crackdown on insurgents in Iraq: a country Anglo/US forces have absolutely no right under international law to be occupying. The conquerors claim to be fighting a war on global terror: their declared principal opponents being Islamic terrorist groups such as al-Qaeda and Mujahedin who operated in the Balkans against the Serbs - and still do.
U.S. military officials also were criticized for a string of recent shootings of Iraqis, including two police officers who were killed by U.S. troops Saturday.
In one incident, U.S. forces killed several Iraqi civilians Thursday evening, reportedly as they drove their vehicles in a darkened neighborhood in northern Baghdad. The troops apparently were conducting a raid at the time.
"The American forces have lost all control," said Raad Al-Azzawi, whose 20-year-old son was killed in Thursday's shooting. "The American forces kill randomly without any reason." Chicago Tribune, 12 august 2003
Sickening hypocrisy does not begin to describe this contradiction and there is more. While Blair claims “humanitarian” reasons for his intervention in Iraq and Kosovo his fraud is revealed by the fact that he has made no intervention whatsoever on behalf of a quarter of a million of Kosovo’s minority populations dispossessed for more than four years: Thousands of them having been murdered and injured by this terrorist insurgency.
While Blair enjoys his carefree freebie Caribbean holiday in air-conditioned apartments and Anglo/US oil giants ship out millions of barrels of Basra crude every week at heavily discounted prices Iraqis do not have fuel for their vehicles or cooling systems in temperatures in excess of 120 degrees. A truly humanitarian act - seemingly unknown to Blair - would be to ship in fuel to replace that lost because of “The Joint Criminal Enterprise’s” destruction of Iraq’s refineries.
Even more sickening were today’s presentations of Britain’s largesse in treating two Iraqi boys who were missing three legs and one forearm: victims of Blair’s coalition bombs. To be fair to the BBC it did remind us of the fact that hundreds more child victims of Blair’s bombs were being ignored. No mention at all was made of the neglect of Serb child victims of Blair’s “humanitarian” bombs.
Peter Taylor
Herts/UK - Tuesday August 12, 2003 at 8:41 pm
Why aren't Blair and Bush - and, say, the Danish Prime Minister, Anders Fogh Rasmussen, - on trial for war crimes in Iraq?On Tuesday 12 August, 2003 in the early morning hours U.S. forces raided 20 houses south of the city of Tikrit, - "Saddam's ancestral home" as it is usually being called by CNN. A former chief of staff of the Iraqi Republican Guard was caught along with a general and 12 other Iraqis in the three-hour raid, Lt. Col. Steve Russell, a U.S. Army spokesman, said. About 200 U.S. soldiers participated in the operation, he added.
Officials described the detainees as "members of a family closely associated with the deposed Iraqi leader."
Saddam Hussein is "deposed"? The captives were not identified by name though. The general was not among the top 55 suspects on the deck of playing cards distributed to U.S. troops. "But he had been sought for some time," Russell said.
U.S. Central Command said that 32 "raids against enemy targets" had been conducted over the last 24 hours.
MAY we look forward to a day, when they'll wish they hadn't said that?
http://edition.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/08/12/sprj.irq.main/index.html
PS: Why Bush and Blair are not on trial, we may not know. As for Anders Fogh Rasmussen he'll probably argue, that Denmark contributed only a freshwater submarine with 22 crew anyway. And a snow plough of course...
Godfred Louis-Jensen
Copenhagen
D E N M A R K - Tuesday August 12, 2003 at 8:41 pm
Why aren't Blair and Bush - and, say, the Danish Prime Minister, Anders Fogh Rasmussen, - on trial for war crimes in Iraq?On Tuesday 12 August, 2003 in the early morning hours U.S. forces raided 20 houses south of the city of Tikrit, - "Saddam's ancestral home" as it is usually being called by CNN. A former chief of staff of the Iraqi Republican Guard was caught along with a general and 12 other Iraqis in the three-hour raid, Lt. Col. Steve Russell, a U.S. Army spokesman, said. About 200 U.S. soldiers participated in the operation, he added.
Officials described the detainees as "members of a family closely associated with the deposed Iraqi leader."
Saddam Hussein is "deposed"? The captives were not identified by name though. The general was not among the top 55 suspects on the deck of playing cards distributed to U.S. troops. "But he had been sought for some time," Russell said.
U.S. Central Command said that 32 "raids against enemy targets" had been conducted over the last 24 hours.
MAY we look forward to a day, when they'll wish they hadn't said that?
http://edition.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/08/12/sprj.irq.main/index.html
PS: Why Bush and Blair are not on trial, we may not know. As for Anders Fogh Rasmussen he'll probably argue, that Denmark contributed only a freshwater submarine with 22 crew anyway. And a snow plough of course...
Godfred Louis-Jensen
Copenhagen
D E N M A R K - Tuesday August 12, 2003 at 8:44 pm
Poor Liberians were begging on their knees for U.S. help to stop the slaughter , at least for a moral obligation due that Liberia was invented by the USA . We will see what we can do when Mr. Taylor leaves , Mr. Taylor left and the new "Conquistadores" show 8 miles from their beaches , but it's just a delusion they don't give a flying f..... about them , there is no oil , geopolitically meaningless and if 1M got killed in Rwanda , another million can go , no problem we stll have our buttler in the UN and we can order him to create another tribunal , lots of bla ,bla , bla in the security council will do it . Gringos¡ Milosevic in Kosovo was fighting terrorism , the same kind and the same organizations that made you realize that you are also vulnerable and if arrogance does't let you see and accept these facts , you will betray the same principles your nation was founded on ,JUSTICE. So free yourselves from the shame your going trough and send the bastard back to Belgrade to be prosecuted by his people for whatever he can be blamed for and do something for Liberia , they do need your help .
Milan Prika
Rep. of Panama - Tuesday August 12, 2003 at 8:46 pm
Excuse me, Moderator, - would you kindly remove one posting "at 8:41 pm" - and this one as well?Thank you...
Godfred Louis-Jensen
Copenhagen
D E N M A R K - Wednesday August 13, 2003 at 8:33 am
Neil Craig on Tuesday August 12, 2003 at 3:25 pm is suggesting, that "Clinton & co." were not aware that Milosevic would be able to show that NATO has a difficult case to answer (or else "he would never have reached court").That seems to me an interesting (and rather frightening!) thought, - and it may well be worth while to consider in depth any "parallels" with the said Vichy trials.
Are we necessarily justified in believing that mr. Milosevic is "well aware" of decisive aspects of this precedent?
Godfred Louis-Jensen
Copenhagen
D E N M A R K - Wednesday August 13, 2003 at 11:39 am
Fool’s ParadiseGod’s gift to New Labour is currently swanning around his Caribbean island paradise on holiday: no doubt congratulating himself on his ‘moral courage’ and contemplating the good his war-mongering - enabled only by outrageous propaganda and dodgy dossiers - has wrought for mankind.
In the real world the hundreds of thousands if not millions of victims of his follies have many reasons for a more gloomy view of Blair’s New World Order.
There are the thousands of limbless, brain-damaged, and otherwise injured or orphaned and homeless children of Serbia and Iraq - many the victims of cluster-bombs. They will have cause to rue Blair’s ‘moral courage’ for the rest of their lives. There are the tens of thousands of adults in Serbia and Iraq who grieve for lost or injured children and other relatives or nurse injuries and suffer hardship and poverty because their property has been damaged or destroyed. Above all there are the quarter of a million of Kosovo’s minority populations who have been driven out of their centuries old homeland. After more than four years they still languish in exile with no hope of safe return in the foreseeable future.
The grim reality of the human consequences of Blair’s futile “humanitarian” interventions - mainly by bombing - is starkly brought home in the following BBC report of yesterday:
A Kosovan asylum seeker who entered the country as a teenage stowaway in the back of a lorry has had his appeal to stay in Wales refused.
BBC Wales has learned that Edmond Pone, who is now 18, will have to leave his foster family in Ebbw Vale, Blaenau Gwent, despite saying he fears for his life in Kosovo.
Not only do the few remaining members of Kosovo’s minority populations fear for their lives under the gang of thugs Blair and his cronies have forced into power but even ethnic Albanians too. Many of whom - for example members of the KDI - did not want the Albanisation of Kosovo: But regardless of the consequences the Ambitious Mr Blair claims he has this god given gift to know what’s best as he bangs on and on about “The right thing to do”.
I hate that drum's discordant sound,
Parading round, and round, and round:
To thoughtless youth it pleasure yields,
And lures from cities and from fields,
To sell their liberty for charms
Of tawdry lace, and glittering arms;
And when Ambition's voice commands,
To march, and fight, and fall, in foreign lands.I hate that drum's discordant sound,
Parading round, and round, and round:
To me it talks of ravaged plains,
And burning towns, and ruined swains,
And mangled limbs, and dying groans,
And widows' tears, and orphans' moans;
And all that Misery's hand bestows,To fill the catalogue of human woes. The Drum by John Scott
Peter Taylor
Herts/UK- Wednesday August 13, 2003 at 12:11 pm
PEC -- Wednesday -- Unknown gunmen opened fire on a group of Serb children swimming in Kosovo this lunchtime, leaving 18-year-old Milos Jovovic dead and several others wounded. According to agency SRNA's Kosovo-Serb sources, the group came under attack while swimming in the River Bistrica close to the Gorazdevac settlement near Pec. The source said that five or six wounded children and one woman have been taken to Pec's hospital, adding that the attack occurred in spite of UNMIK members protecting the swimmers. Speaking to TV B92 in the immediate aftermath, a Gorazdevac local said: "I can only say that the children bathed and played at the river beach when an attacker sneaked close and opened fire on innocent kids from 50 metres away. At this point we can't say much about the nature of the attack or how seriously the children were wounded".
Dakic Ana
Serbia- Wednesday August 13, 2003 at 2:21 pm
(Danish)DEN 20. AUGUST FYLDER PRÆSIDENT SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC 62. DET VIL BLIVE HANS TREDJE FØDSELSDAG I FÆNGSLET.
TILKENDEGIVELSE OM STØTTE SAMT FØDSELSDAGSHILSEN KAN SENDES SOM POSTKORT, BREV ELLER TELEGRAM TIL NEDENSTÅENDE ADRESSE:
(English)
ON AUGUST 20, PRESIDENT SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC WILL BE 62. THIS WILL BE HIS THIRD BIRTHDAY IN PRISON.
PLEASE SEND YOUR SUPPORT MESSAGES AND BITHDAY GREETINGS AS POST-CARDS, LETTERS OR CABLES TO THE FOLLOWING ADDRESS:
(Russian)
20-OGO AVGUSTA PREZIDENTU MILOSHEVICHU NAVESHITSYA 62 GODA. EHTO BUDET EGO TRETIJ DEN' ROZHDENIYA V TYUR'ME.
POZHALUJSTA POSSYLAJTE VIRAZHENIYA PODDERZHKI I POZDRAVLENIYA V FORME OTKRYTOK, PISEM I TELEGRAMM NA SLEDUYUSHCHIJ ADRES:
(Serbian)
20. AVGUSTA PREDSEDNIK MILOSEVIC CE IMATI 62 GODINE. TO CE BITI NJEGOV TRECI RODJENDAN U ZATVORU.
POSALJITE SVOJE IZRAZE PODRSKE I CESTITKE U OBLIKU RAZGLEDNICA, PISAMA I TELEGRAMA NA SLEDECU ADRESU:
PRESIDENT SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC
UN Detention Unit
Postbus 87810
2508 Den Haag
Pomp Stations Weg 32
THE NETHERLANDS
Godfred Louis-Jensen
Copenhagen
D E N M A R K- Wednesday August 13, 2003 at 5:30 pm
New developments:TO ICDSM MEMBERS AND SUPPORTERS After ICDSM adopted principles of its work and conclusions about the imminent tasks of our struggle, as well as about its organization, appreciating all the positive contribution of ICDSM members and all progressive and honest people supporting the struggle of President Milosevic, I am sure that I express the widest common view calling upon for:
1. Concentration on concrete work for the freedom of President Milosevic and people of Yugoslavia;
2. Cease of all public debate and personal attacks concerning the ICDSM internal issues, leaders and members.
Sofia, August 12, 2003
Professor Velko Valkanov
Founder and Co-Chairman of ICDSM
-------------
Dan B
Canada- Wednesday August 13, 2003 at 6:03 pm
The Petain precedent is really interesting. Milosevic doesn't have to be aware of this precedent, at least if he listens to some elements in the international committee that somebody (probably themselves) appointed to defend him. Some time ago, these same elements made a scandal about the Klaus Barbi trial and, "coincidentally," the defence attorney Jacques Verges. Suddenly Jacques Verges was called a fascist himself, and the members of the ICDSM got the message that they were to shun him.Ramsey Clark was appointed Milosevic's defence attorney by the tribunal, but obviously such an appointment isn't good enough for the ICDSM. On the contrary, Clark was criticized by the ICDSM for calling himself Milosevic's defence attorney. How dare he! The tribunal is an illegal organ, so obviously anyone appointed by the tribunal to be someone's defence attorney is illegal too. Still, the ICDSM has its candidate for defence attorney, too. Or does it?
The tribunal pays handsome soms of money to the defence attorneys, and these same attorneys still complain it isn't enough. That gives us some idea of the magnitude of the fund-raising effort the ICDSM is currently conducting. The tribunal-appointed attorneys at least had some chance of being heard, but can the same be said of the ICDSM? What do they need the money for? Yes, Milosevic is to be freed, but only on a specific agenda which coincides with that of the liberators themselves. Otherwise, no can do.
J W
Canada- Wednesday August 13, 2003 at 8:01 pm
JW,The story goes, that when in May 1905 Norway (under some duress!) ceded from Sweden - the stronger member of the then Personal Union - mr. Bjørnstjerne Bjørnsson, the renowned poet and writer send a gung ho telegram to the Norwegian Prime Minister, stating that "Now is the Time to stand Firm!"
Bjørnsson got an immediate reply: "Now is the Time to Shut Up!"
While this account just MAY be true, it was never verified. There is something for "us" to learn from that even so (although it would appear from professor Velko Valkanov's little written instruction above, that there may be regional variations to the basic theme).
We might agree that in a strained situation all are well advised in avoiding "personal attacks" i.e. "attacks concerning the ICDSM", - or maybe "attacks" altogether? - while indeed we would always reserve ample room for a lively public debate.
Concentration on "concrete work" also seems to be good advice - the truth is "concrete", isn't it? I remember quoting mr. Milosevic for saying at one point during the "trial", that "the only advantage that I do have here is, that I speak the truth". That remark may now be buried under thousands of trial transcript pages - yet it lives to make a lot of sense.
And that takes us back I suppose to the interesting "Petain precedent" introduced by Neil Craig, which may even be useful in illustrating the value of "public debate" (although I would suspect that conditions today are really way apart (and not necessarily preferable) from those of French Bourgeois society at the time). I do hope - and I think we can trust - that Neil Craig's lead is being taken seriously?
Imagine the "trial" halted out of the defendents ability to show the inherent weaknesses of NATO's case! That would surely save a lot of time - and money...
Godfred Louis-Jensen
Copenhagen
D E N M A R K- Wednesday August 13, 2003 at 8:10 pm
Kosovo: Boastful Blair’s nightmare creation"Near the farmer's market our Opel Kadet with Zrenjanin license plates ran out of fuel. I went to the KFOR checkpoint some 50 meters away to ask if they would give us a litre of fuel but the Italian soldiers turned us down, despite the fact that I speak Italian relatively well," said Jandzikovic.
"We were then attacked by a group of young Albanians - with fists and stones - while members of the Kosovo Police Service nearby failed to react," he added.
Jandzakovic said that "there were two boys in the car fighting for their lives" and added that he does not understand "what is happening to people."
"Somehow we managed, with a KFOR military escort, to get to Pec Hospital but once there we were mistreated even by the physicians, who refused to give immediate assistance to the wounded boys," said Jandzikovic, who returned to Gorazdevac without his vehicle, together with KFOR.
His shirt is soaked with blood and there are several bruises on his face.
ERP KIM INFO SERVICE learns that the child beaten by Albanian hooligans is now in critical condition in the KFOR military hospital in Mitrovica
All this and more is being kept from the UK population by the BBC and the rest of the so-called responsible media. A few weeks ago a family of three was chopped to death with an axe whist sleeping in their beds, the house was set on fire and their car stolen: after threats from Albanians if they did not vacate their property. At the same time a Serb teacher was gunned down in a hail of bullets whilst riding home on his bicycle. Yesterday another Serb was shot in the head while fishing and is now in critical condition. In contrast UK media reports claim there are no ethnically motivated attacks. According to UN spokespersons this is always explained away as the work of madmen!
During the past four years of Nato’s occupation such frequent atrocities have cost the lives of between three and four thousand people including loyal Kosovars. Milosevic has been indicted because it is alleged that his security forces were responsible for just a fifth of this number. It beggars belief that hardly any of these horrific crimes have been solved.
What does the world expect from Blair and his cronies daft idea to put terrorists in charge of the police force there: Police and general murderers, KLA, transformed overnight into policemen, KPC!
Del Ponte, apparently to be half sacked for incompetence by her half-baked employers, persistently fails in her duty to bring to trial the ringleaders of this nightmare world: Thus compounding the crime.
Nato criminally welches on its peace agreement, Resolution 1244, to allow the Serbs the necessary forces to protect themselves on their own sovereign territory which they have inhabited for centuries.
Milosevic is being subjected to a five year show trial for combating this terror. Is there no one out there with sufficient integrity, courage, influence and vision to expose and thus bring to an end Boastful Blair’s nightmare creation in Kosovo?
Peter Taylor
Herts/UK- Wednesday August 13, 2003 at 10:38 pm
P.T.thks for your insightful contribution. ( you could eventually include Clinton along w/ Blair)
AP V
NY
NY - Wednesday August 13, 2003 at 12:11 pm