MILOSEVIC TRIAL DISCUSSION ARCHIVE

Is Slobodan Milosevic getting a fair trial?
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• discussion archive

• Wednesday August 20, 2003 at 5:12 am
  Someone wrote:

  "According to UNMIK's own stats there were 246 murders in Jan-Dec 2000. According to Indepedent sources (Yugoslav, NGO's, and even Adem Demaci) more than 1,000 murders took place in the first 18 months of military occupation. Some have suggested that as many as 2,000 civilians were murdered after Kfor took responsibility for the safety and security of the people of Kosovo and Metohija."

  If the above is correct, then it follows that we need another bombing of Kosovo as the number of dead "Albanians" prior to NATO intervention was even smaller. Where are you Tony and Bill and George W? What's wrong with humanitarian "assistance" this time round? Or is the current situation acceptable because it's the "right" (our) bastards giving the wrong bastards a lesson, as in the cases American administrations have sponsored all over Latin America and a host of other places throughout the world?

  Gogol

  You haven't got it right! If you really want to make an impression about Guantanamo, you have to elevate it to the status of the non-existent concentration camps of the Serbs.

  Jared Israel says you're a Holocaust denier because you mention a REAL camp. Tony Blair, Bill Clinton, Madeline F..kwit and Co leave you for dead as Holocaust deniers with their depictions of NON EXISTENT concentration camps run by Serbs and the Nazi analogies. Hence I have to conclude that you don't even rate a mention in that respect!

  Take note Mr Israel, and perhaps you might apologise to Gogol, least of all as your inference about Gogol in the first place is illogical, even if we strain syllogistic practice to breaking strain!

  And by the way, Mr Israel, aren't you tired of referring to anyone who has anything even remotely negative to say about Israeli practices in the Middle East as Jew bashers, Anti-Semites, Holocaust deniers and similar? Maybe you should see another spin doctor as the medication/treatment doesn't seem to be curing you of the prejudices and hate for which you so roundly criticise others.

  Most sane people don't like violent extremists of any colour. I would be prepared to entertain some of your positions to SOME extent, except it seems to me that you have a distinct colour preference. And please don't bother to justify or explain as I've heard a zillion versions of the same. Jew bashers or Moslem bashers, they're all the same colour in my book :-(

  Mr Jovanovic

  Whatever happens, Milosevic has done himself and the Serbian people proud! (Except for the ass kissers who are currently in power). I'm sure he was aware that he could have sold out and lived the rest of his life on the Riviera, but he didn't. I guess some things are more important and are worth dying for.

  Still, it may turn out down the track when the sleepwalkers wake up that Milosevic was the first to stand up to the NEW World Order.

  BTW, did you know that Hitler himself used the phrase New World Order to describe his plans for Europe and the Far East? It was a popular Nazi term. Seems like the Nazi's the USA rescued from Europe to battle the Soviets, Galen and Co, have left their legacy on the Leaders of the "Free World" in more ways than one. Goebbels like propaganda, the Reichstag Fire Trials, unlawful imprisonment, new anti-democratic powers to fight "subversives/terrorists", destruction and occupation of countries under false security threat or humanitarian pretences, etc, etc.

  Here we go again! Who says history doesn't repeat itself?
  
  David
  Oztralia

• Wednesday August 20, 2003 at 5:25 am
  Correction... Galen should read Gehlen
  
  David
  Oztralia

• Wednesday August 20, 2003 at 6:44 am
  The Hague Tribunal has given President Milosevic the gift of isolation for his birthday.

  The Tribunal has prohibited him from receiving visits from the representatives of the Socialist Party of Serbia (SPS).

  This is a calculated strategy by the Hague Tribunal that is designed to cut President Milosevic off from the people who are the best equiped to help him prepare his defense.

  The SPS has offices, regional boards, and members all over Serbia. The SPS is a substancial organization.

  The SPS is the only organization in Serbia that has both the desire and the resources necessary to do the work of preparing defense witnesses, and obtaining other materials that President Milosevic needs inorder to properly present his defense.

  The Tribunal's excuse is pathetic - they are banning the SPS because they say that somebody from the SPS spoke to the media about one of their visits to the President.

  The Tribunal has effectively put a one-sided gag order on these proceedings. Carla del Ponte can say anything she wants to the media whenever she has a mind to say it.

  But, if anything President Milosevic says gets into the media, there is Hell to pay. The hypocrisy of these people is absolutely amazing.

  The fact that the tribunal even has a rule prohibiting an accused person from speaking to the media, even if its through somebody else, proves the political nature of the tribunal.

  Why should the defense be gagged, punished, and prohibited from speaking to the media, while the prosecution can freely speak to the media?

  This is pure bullshit. That bastard court is doing everything it can to, hamper President Milosevic's defense and hide the truth.

  P.S., I agree with Pasha Ponomarenko's suggestion that a Yahoo group be started for discussions on ICDSM matters.

  The "trial" is going to start again on Aug. 25th, and when the trial is going on this page should be devoted to exclusively that and not to all of this stupiduty in the ICDSM.

  Quite honestly I think that we are destroying this discussion. Nobody except for people who are associated with the ICDSM gives a damn about any of this stuff.
  
  Andy Wilcoxson
  Washington, United States

• Wednesday August 20, 2003 at 7:19 am
  Dave,

  Regarding numbers (MUP statistics) see

  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/decani/message/,

  second from the bottom paragraph.

  Cheers mate!
  
  Pasha Ponomarenko
  \'Straya

• Wednesday August 20, 2003 at 7:21 am
  Sorry,

  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/decani/message/76682
  
  Pasha P.
  Oz

• Wednesday August 20, 2003 at 7:43 am
  Wilcoxson,

  some would find it quite appropriate that something calling itself a "discussion" board would play host to polemics, as I believe somebody put it, since polemics are generally part of what's called "discussion." And I gather from the Jurist notice at the top of this page that Jurist invigilates the discussion site for the appropriateness and relevance of contributions, so perhaps we don't need self-appointed invigilators or moderators to do their job for them.

  And you're wrong again (and as usual) in saying that only ICDSM members "give a damn" about the fate of ICDSM or its goings-on, b/c I'm not a member of ICDSM, and I very much give a damn, because I regard Mr. Milosevic as a maligned anti-imperialist figure who deserves the principled support of Western progressives, and I care about his cause and an organization formed to defend it being debased and manipulated by a gang of four-flushers and slanderers. But it looks like somebody's trying to do something about that finally, and that's good. And I have little doubt what a search of this discussion board's archives would show about which participants *started* the polemics on ICDSM and the attacks on ICDSM members, and about who was very willing to keep throwing punches and dusting it up, so long as they felt assured of getting the upper hand. In any case, you're nothing if not multi-faceted in your hypocrisy.
  
  P WP
  Bas Canada

• Wednesday August 20, 2003 at 8:17 am
  OPEN LETTER

  To President Slobodan Milosevic, Detention Unit The Hague

  HEALTH, COURAGE AND CERTAIN VICTORY

  Those words were heading an e-mail undersigned by President Slobodan Milosevic, that I have just been receiving.

  Although the e-mail proper was in Serbian (which I do not read, alas!) I do believe, that I got the message. In any case I hereby return your kind reminder not to despair,

  with gratitude and admiration

  Godfred Louis-Jensen, architect

  c.c. The Danish Prime Minister, Anders Fogh Rasmussen (stm@stm.dk)
  
  Godfred Louis-Jensen
  Copenhagen
  D E N M A R K

• Wednesday August 20, 2003 at 9:11 am
  

  BELGRADE -- Wednesday -- The Hague Tribunal is reported to have banned members of the Socialist Party of Serbia and the Sloboda (Freedom) Movement from visiting Slobodan Milosevic, according to Sloboda Association member Vladimir Krsljanin.

  Speaking at a press conference on the occasion of the former Yugoslav and Serbian President's birthday, Krsljanin produced a letter from the international tribunal's administration addressed to Milosevic, which states that the ban, to be implemented until further notice, is a result of a media statement given in breach of court regulations.

  The statement was made by Socialist Party delegation members Milorad Vucelic and Zoran Andjelkovic during their last visit to the Scheveningen detention centre, where Milosevic is being held. They gave the statement to press despite being forewarned that such a move was against tribunal rules.

  Krsljanin protested: "This is hideous manipulation and an injustice because it is not in line with the rules of the tribunal".

  He stressed that a "legal battle" for the decision to be overturned would ensue.

  The press conference was followed by the holding of a "Free Serbia" debate and the screening of a documentary entitled "Defeated Hague", which were to mark Milosevic's birthday.

  --Meanwhile,in Kosovo, the crimes continue. An eighty-year-old Serb woman was attacked in Gnjilane this week by assailants posing as Kosovo police, Serb media in the province report.

  Vukosava Ivkovic, who lives alone, is the only Serb woman living in her neighbourhood in Gnjilane.

  The assailants, who have not been identified, harassed and assaulted the victim during a scheduled two-hour power outage in the town. The assault was confirmed by medical staff at Pristina Hospital where she was treated and released.

  www.b92.net
  
  Dan B
  Canada

• Wednesday August 20, 2003 at 9:34 am
  
  David here is some data which confirms the two thousand figure you mention:

  BELGRADE, August 19 (Tanjug) - Since the arrival of KFOR and UNMIK in Kosovo-Metohija on June 10, 1999, Albanian terrorists have carried out 6,535 attacks killing 1,201, injuring 1,328 and kidnapping 1,146 persons, Serbian Interior Ministry (MUP) has announced.

  The report goes on to say that of the 1,146 kidnap victims 166 have been found murdered and 871 are still missing. This undoubtedly means they have been murdered. So the total amounts to 2,072.

  This is probably not the full story. These figures are sourced by the MUP who would have good communications with Serbs remaining in Kosovo but would not have good information from the almost ten times larger populated ethnic Albanian regions. The report claims only 109 Albanian killed. In contrast the figure of ‘more than a thousand Albanians killed after the arrival of KFOR’ is attributed to Bujar Bukoshi and supported by Faik Jashari who claims 200 Albanians killed by the KLA just eight weeks after the arrival of KFOR: and later! Given this is true, the figure comes to some 3,000.

  Here we must credit the good work done by Jared Israel and Gregory Elich in producing such reports. Some Jews even fought alongside the Serbs. In contrast we have the actions of Cohen, Albright, Rubin and their propaganda machine Ruder-Finn. From a cursory glance I do not like what I see of the ADL: But why should Albright and associates give them so much ammunition: Now is the time for Albright and associates to correct their crimes against the Serbs and if they will not then for the rest of the Jewish community to do so on their behalf.

  Courtesy of the BBC Rubin continues to broadcast that the Serbs committed Genocide in Kosovo. The BBC in its latest absurdity recently claimed that the Serbs had slaughtered 8,500 Kosovars.

  When you add to this those killed during the air bombardment by bombs and the KLA - Nato killed some 400 in just five raids: two tractor convoys, the Istok prison and two coaches - we must have a figure in excess of 4,000.

  Now we can se why the Milosevic indictment is for only some 550 victims. Of the some 4,500 graves exhumed some 4,000 are the victims of the KLA/Nato Alliance. Now we can see why the ICTY has stated it is no longer interested in the body count.

  What we can’t see is why the ICTY ignores the much larger number of victims of the KLA/Nato Alliance? This is a report KLA/Nato/ICTY do not want you to verify.

  This is not Justice!
  
  Peter Taylor
  Herts/UK

• Wednesday August 20, 2003 at 10:29 am
  
  Double helpings

  GNJILANE -- Tuesday - An eighty-year-old Serb woman was attacked in Gnjilane this week by assailants posing as Kosovo police, Serb media in the province report.

  ”Posing” as the KPC: that’s a laugh given its record. I believe one report claimed the assault was a rape - can anyone confirm that?

  But this is not the first time this elderly lady has been attacked: they want her out of her home. She was injured in a bomb attack three years ago.

  There is another report of a sixty-year-old Serb man badly beaten up today. Last week a Serb was shot and mortally wounded while fishing. Two Serb children were murdered while swimming in a machine gun attack in which four were injured including two seriously. The party attending the injured was beaten up by an Albanian mob while the KPC stood by. Albanian physicians mistreated the injured. A second machine gun attack caused no injuries

  A few weeks ago three Serbs were chopped to death in their beds with an axe. A Serb teacher was shot to death while cycling to his home. And all the other assaults I forget to mention while the media pretends all is peaceful in Blair’s New World Order.

  While Blair Swans around his paradise island this is the nightmare world his meddling had produced in Kosovo alone. Wake up New Labour supporters and get rid of these latter day do-gooders who do no-one but themselves any good: chuck them out bag and baggage: Blair, Straw, Hoon, Cook, Roberstson, Short … the lot.

  These assaults will continue until del Ponte does her much promised duty and indicts Blairs chums the leadership of the KLA.
  
  Peter Taylor
  Herts/UK

• Wednesday August 20, 2003 at 10:35 am
  Peter Taylor,

  The ADL (American Defense League) is part of Boris Pribich's little empire. He runs numerous websites that masquerade as organizations: Serbian Defense League, American Defense League, CompuSerb, etc...

  Boris Pribich is a self confessed Nazi, who claims to be a Serb. I however, have heard rumors that he is really an Ustasha who escaped to the U.S.A. after World War II.

  In my opinion Boris Pribich and his websites are part of a propaganda campaign designed to paint the Serbs as Nazis.

  To the layman who has probably heard rumors that Serbs are Nazis, Boris Pribich's "Serbian" websites would only serve as confirmation of those rumors.

  It would be far better for the Serbs if that Nazi Pribich were to condemn the Serbs rather than make statements that appear to support them.
  
  Andy Wilcoxson
  Washington, United States

• Wednesday August 20, 2003 at 10:39 am
  Peter Taylor,

  Tanjug said that she was gang-raped by Albanian terrorists. Here is their report:

  Serb elderly woman raped
  Tanjug - August 19, 2003

  13:53 GNJILANE - The Gnjilane police announced on Tuesday that they are searching for the rapists of a Serb elederly woman, who are believed to belong to an Albanian terrorist organization.

  Vukosava Ivkovic from Gnjilane had been transfered to the Pristina hospital with serious injuries, but her health condition is still unknown.
  
  Andy Wilcoxson
  Washington, United States

• Wednesday August 20, 2003 at 11:19 am
  Peter Taylor,

  The assault was indeed a rape, at least according to the Beta News Agency. They reported it yesterday.
  
  Dan B
  Canada

• Wednesday August 20, 2003 at 12:16 pm
  Mr. Jovanovic in my opinion stand to be honoured for plainly admitting that he (too!) does not understand "all the polemics in this site." (August 19, 2003 at 12:43 pm).

  Neither do I, mr. Jovanovic!

  But I do get some of it, however. And while like yourself I "do not believe that Milosevic is guilty of any charges presented so far" (by the ICTY), I trust that the US, England "and others" will eventually simply be forced "to absolve him of these charges," - even if today that appears "next to impossible".

  Never say never...

  Might this distinguished "trial discussion" panel attempt to clarify the likely future course(s) of the "Milosevic trial", - which in my opinion include its abandonment by the end of the Prosecution's case.

  In order to employ the (limited!) resources that "we" have to fullest advantage, it is obviously necessary to have an idea of where the "trial" is taking us, the public.

  For one thing: Do we rationally envisage a "defence case" as lenghty as the prosecution?
  
  Godfred Louis-Jensen
  Copenhagen
  D E N M A R K

• Wednesday August 20, 2003 at 1:00 pm
  Mr. Israel,

  Again you demostrate your inability to tell the truth about anything.

  You state that Nico Stejnen worked alone on the legal papers filed in the European Court. Not true. Although he did the majority of the work and should be commended for it others were involved including myself,and the well-known Canadian human rights lawyer, David Jacobs, in Toronto. If my memory serves me, others were also involved. Stejnen sent us drafts of his papers for critique and revision. David Jacobs spent some considerable time on it. I spent over a hundred hours on that project. I think Ramsey Clark also had some input but I cannot swear to that now at this late date. Further you are aware of this as I had several telephone conversations with you about that project at the time and the work that was being done and by whom.

  Let's address another one of your lies. You did not lead the press conference on February 22, 2002. You almost destroyed it. The world press showed up. We had a gloden opportunity to present the case for Milosevic. But due to your overweaning ego, you jumped the gun and began talking to the press before the conference had begun, despite the pleas of Nico Varkevisser, myself, Paul Davidson, Vladimir Krsljanin and others that you were killing the press conference. You went on hysterically for over twenty minutes until a couple of us stopped you becuase the danger was that the press would have all they wanted after you had finished your hysterical tirade and would leave when you stopped. Which is exactly what happened. Soon after you were stopped so we could begin the conference, a large number of the press corps left.

  When the press conference began with what was left of the press corps you were just one of several participants. In fact the conference was dominated by the members of the legal committee; myself, Jacques Verges from Paris, Professor Aldo Bernadini from Rome, Nico Stejnen from Amsterdam. All of us spoke at that press conference. And Jacques Verges spoke at length and spoke eloquently about the dangers of the ICTY and in defence of Milosevic. Professor Bernadini spoke. I spoke. Nico Stejnen spoke. We answered questions. You were not the draw for the press. Jacques Verges was.

  Your personal attacks on the members of the ICDSM would be bad enough for us as individuals. But that is not the important thing. What is important is the defence of Slobodan Milosevic. By choosing to publicly attack the members of the ICDSM who have spent so much time and effort in that cause you have actively tried to destroy the only organization dedicated to that cause.

  You could have called Ramsey Clark and presented him with your views and asked for an explanantion privately. You did not. You could have called Jacques Verges and asked him about your views on him. Instead you hid in the weeds and sniped at them. You have no sense of honour or fair play.

  Now you attack me, which is ubelievable in light of the fact that I gave you several thousand dollars to keep your website going when you claimed to be in financial distress and which money you took from my credit card, once with my permission, the second time without my permission and without informing me, until I saw my credit card bill and saw that you had abused our friendship to take more money out of my credit card while I was in Tanzania at the Rwanda Tribunal. Where I come from that amounts to theft. When I challenged you on that you said that since we were "friends" you didnt think I would mind. Well, I minded but becuase I thought of you as a friend I let it go. But you still have my money.

  And as far as having the assistance of a lawyer,(as opposed to having a lawyer acting as lead counsel) yes I openly stated my opinion that he would be wise to have one to assist (and I underline the word "assist") him in court and you also supported that idea. Which is why you arranged for the trip of another Candian lawyer to go to The Hague to meet Milosevic last December to discuss the idea, and then left that lawyer stranded there much to their distress. Too many people know the truth about events Mr. Israel for your campaign of lies to succeed.

  Christopher Black Chair, Legal Committee ICDSM
  
  Christopher Black
  Toronto
  Canada

• Wednesday August 20, 2003 at 3:13 pm
  To brand Serbs as nazi is like accepting that the sun raises form the west , only an identity confused Mad. not to bright and associates in there pygmy criterion can imagine such a Pharaohnic lunacy .
  
  Milan Prika
  Rep. of Panama

• Wednesday August 20, 2003 at 3:18 pm
  P.S. Miss Albright does "BOLJE GROB NEGO ROB" rings a bell?
  
  Milan Prika
  Rep. of Panama

• Wednesday August 20, 2003 at 4:56 pm
  
  KPC gang rape and its consequences:

  The human rights organisation, Amnesty International, has called for an urgent independent inquiry into documented evidence that British troops based in Kenya over the past 30 years have raped up to 650 women.

  “What is appalling is the scale of the problem, the scale of the silence and the scale of the apathy. We're talking here of at least 650 allegations from Kenyan women of rape, more than half of them are of gang rape by British soldiers, over a period of time going back some 30 years, and there is evidence to suggest that as far back as 1977, very clearly in 1983 and at subsequent points since then, the allegations have been brought to the attention of the local officials, have been brought to the attention of the British officials, British Army officers there in central Kenya and nothing has been done.” Irene Khan, Secretary General, Human Rights Watch.

  A score or more of these alleged rapes have occurred while Blair has been Prime Minister. And yes the complaints have been ignored!

  The most nauseating aspect of this affair is the Blairs’ trumpeting of the Serbs alleged rapes in Kosovo. Blairspeak House of Commons, April 1999:

  He told the Commons that the "murder, rape and terror" Serbian President Slobodan Milosevic had perpetrated in Kosovo had "justified Nato's military action".

  Then there is his wife Cherie reported in their pal Rupert’s Sun to be “horrified about the (imaginary) rape camps” in Kosovo.

  So Mr and Mrs Blair, as you swan about your freebie island paradise, would you mind explaining why rape - however little there was - by paramilitaries during a civil war in Kosovo was a Causus Bellum whereas rape by British soldiers enjoying a jolly in Kenya has been a matter of no concern?
  
  Peter Taylor
  Herts/UK

• Wednesday August 20, 2003 at 5:20 pm
  Our troops properly deserved a balanced diet of occupational sex. Understandably men, splendid men as they are, British behaved bringing civilization to remotes lands, are entitled to natures inclinations. I am proud, I am fit, I am British!
  
  Tony Blair
  Great Britain

• Wednesday August 20, 2003 at 5:31 pm
  I underztand hier ist a ganev using The Trial of the Century to pay his bills: thiz iz most unthical but yet in tune with zionists prinziples. Opening regional offices to collect more mesuma is our second nature. It iz too bad Americans don't like to defend Slobo, we could be rich!
  
  Zeeb Zabotinsky
  Greater Israel

• Wednesday August 20, 2003 at 5:36 pm
  PUT AN END TO THE INTRA-ICDSM ROW AND IMPLEMENT AN EFFECTIVE MEDIA STRATEGY

  The opposing views within ICDSM have been elaborated in painful detail by several protagonists. I reiterate the following suggestions, which have more or less been offered by other cool-headed and deeply concerned participants of this forum.

  1. All personal attacks through the pages of the "Jurist", ICDSM or any other forum must be stopped once and for all. Remaining grievances should be either addressed privately or written in a strictly civil manner. Issues of ICDSM strategy should be privately debated among ICDSM members and Milosevic and a unified position should be presented in public. This is everybody's obligation not only to Milosevic but also to the people of the former Yugoslavia, to justice and to history.

  2. An effective media strategy is needed to counteract the well-funded and well-packaged sinister propaganda by CIJ / Judith Armatta, IWPR / Emir Suljagic and other outlets of the financial empire of Soros & like-minded pseudo-globalist crooks. It is a shame that when naive journalists (from AP, Reuters etc) seek information about the trial, the only people they get to talk to are the likes of Armatta and Suljagic. Why is there rarely any true, honest legal expert available to make statements to the press? Make no mistake: The mainstream press is very powerful and as it is now exposing Blair's lies on Iraq, it has the potential to expose the infinitely more grotesque lies manufactured against Serbia. Without mainstream media exposure of these lies, a politically and legally scandalous verdict against Milosevic will likely have an easy time.
  The details of an effective media strategy should be worked out by ICDSM and Milosevic. In my opinion, the spokeperson(s) of such an effort (i.e. people who will adress the mainstream press) should not be overt Milosevic fans. They should instead be politically astute legal experts with good credentials and untainted by allegations of sympathies to extreme causes. There are surely many such people working for the cause of Balkan justice. What is needed is unity and planning.
  
  Pythagoras Crotoniatis
  Greece

• Wednesday August 20, 2003 at 7:23 pm
  Indeed Pythagoras, difficult as both sides must find it not to rise to each others baits they run the risk of sounding like the Peoples Front of Judea (Official) from Monty Pythons Life of Brian.
  
  Neil Craig
  UK

• Wednesday August 20, 2003 at 7:30 pm
  I want to second Pythagoras Crotoniatis' suggestion. It would be excellent if the ICDSM had someone on hand who followed the Milosevic trial on a daily basis and could quickly turn around summaries that would then be sent to the media.

  I think this forum can offer an excellent candidate for this position. Vera Martinovic's daily trial summaries have been outstanding for their wit, accuracy and legal insight. Were the media to receive her summaries on a regular basis to counteract the poisonous lies of IWPR and CIJ, they might just start to pay attention to this "trial." Her accounts differ so starkly from theirs that even the laziest reporter may feel he has to do a little bit of work.

  It's a long shot. But there's no harm in trying. Vera may be busy. But somebody here or at the ICDSM could help her out, perhaps by taking turns with her or by editing her copy.

  With US and British prestige at their lowest point ever, this is the moment that people just might start to pay attention to the struggle of the man who saw the threat from post-Cold War Western imperialism before anyone else did-- Slobodan Milosevic.
  
  Robert Hessen
  Seattle
  Washington

• Wednesday August 20, 2003 at 8:37 pm
  PRESIDENT MILOSEVIC UNDER THREAT OF TOTAL ISOLATION!

  Having been informed that the "International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia" (ICTY) has "decided to deny until further notice" any requests from members of the Socialist Party of Serbia "and associated entities, such as the SLOBODA/Freedom Association", for visits to President Milosevic at the Detention Unit, I hereby relay copies of 3 documents forming a recent correpondance between the SLOBODA/Freedom Association and the ICTY Court Management concerning this drastic limitation of "visitation rights" at the Detention Unit in The Hague, which - at the eve of his defence case - may eventually cut President Milosevic from all visits.

  The correspondance comprise 1) Application for visit, dated 11 August, 2003, 2) ICTY reply, dated 12 August, 2003 and 3) Protest against the ICTY decision, dated 19 August, 2003, as follows:

  1.

  (COPY of application (or: request) for a visit starts)

  Ms. Monica Martinez

  Chief of OLAD

  Registry, ICTY

  The Hague

  The Netherlands

  U R G E N T

  Subject: Application for a visit of Mr. Bjelica to President Milosevic

  Dear Ms. Martinez,

  We apply hereby for a visit of the Chairman of the “Freedom” Association Mr. Bogoljub Bjelica to President Milosevic. We make this application with the consent of President Milosevic. The visit would take place at earliest convenience. Having in mind the health situation of Mr. Milosevic and the amount of his current activities in the preparations for the continuation of the process, we would appreciate very much if you could agree the exact date for the visit in direct communication with President Milosevic.

  Since several months have passed since our last visit, we are sure that there will be no difficulties in approving this visit. Our legal interest and our commitments remain as before.

  For your reply or any further information our contacts remain: phone +381 63 8862 301 or fax +381 11 630 549.

  Belgrade, August 11th, 2003

  Appreciating your cooperation, I remain

  Yours sincerely

  Igor Raicevic

  Chairman of the Assembly of "Freedom" Association

  (COPY of application (or: request) for a visit ends)

  2.

  (COPY of ICTY refusal (or: denial) of any requests for visits starts)

  ICTY COURT MANAGEMENT

  12 August 2003

  Dear Mr. Milosevic,

  This letter is written in reference to the most recent visit of a delegation of the Socialist Party of Serbia ("SPS") to visit you at the United Nations Detention Unit, on 17 July 2003. The members of this delegation were:

  - Mr. Zarko Obradovic

  - Mr. Ivica Dacic

  - Mr. Zoran Andjelkovic

  - Mr. Dusan Bajatovic

  - Mr. Milorad Vucelic

  Prior to this visit, the SPS were expressly advised that as visitors, they were obliged to comply with the relevant rules and regulations of the Tribunal governing visits and communications with detainees. In particular, they were cautioned that the dissemination to the media of any information disclosed to the media in any form is prohibited and could result in the limitation of visitation rights to you in future.

  Subsequent to the visit, two articles were published in the media in Belgrade, which quoted from Mr. Vucelic and Mr. Andjelkovic respectively in relation to the details of the visit. Despite the existence of some factual inaccuracies, it is clear that the only possible source of the information referred to in the articles was the SPS delegation.

  In view of the flagrant nature of this breach of the rules and regulations of the Tribunal, I have decided that it would be in the interests of good administration of the Detention Unit to deny until further notice any requests from members of the SPS and associated entities, such as the Freedom Association, for visits with you at the Detention Unit.

  Yours sincerely,

  (signed)

  Hans Holthuis

  Registrar

  Mr. Slobodan Milosevic,

  United Nations Detention Unit

  cc: Mr. Branislav Popovic International Secretary of the Socialist Party of Serbia Per facsimile: +381 11 627 170/+381 11 187 316

  cc: Mr. Bogoljub Bjelica Chairman of the Freedom Association Per facsimile: +381 11 639 152

  Churchillplein 1, 2517 JW The Hague, P.O.Box 13888, 2501 EW The Hague, Netherlands

  (COPY of ICTY refusal (or: denial) of any requests for visits ends)

  3.

  (COPY of letter protesting the ICTY refusal starts)

  Mr. Hans Holthuis

  Registrar

  ICTY

  The Hague

  The Netherlands

  U R G E N T

  Re: Your unjustified decision of August 12 and our application for a visit of August 11, 2003

  Dear Mr. Holthuis,

  In your letter to President Milosevic, dated August 12, the copy of which we have received by fax on August 15, after our phone intervention to accelerate your respond to our August 11 application, and which has been delivered to President Milosevic only yesterday, August 18, you threat with total isolation of President Milosevic. After he has been deprived of family visits, now you want to cut also the visits of his closest associates. Except it is outrageous, your decision is totally legally unsustainable. Here are the reasons:

  1. It is not true that your rules prohibit that any information about the visit can be disclosed to the media. Rule 63(B) of your “Rules on Detention” and Regulation 33(B) of your “Regulations to govern the supervision of visits to and communications with detainees” only says that: “Permission may be denied if the Registrar has reason to believe that the purpose of the visit is to obtain information which may be subsequently reported in the media.” So even if someone says some detail to media it still does not mean that it was the purpose of his visit. Then, even if some individual does something you dislike, it still does not mean that you should punish the whole organization. And finally, the spirit of all your other relevant rules implies that the discretion right given to you should have only meaning to prevent influence of media on the processes before the ICTY.

  2. Nobody in Serbia is aware that any of the members of SPS delegation gave any public statement that can influence the process.

  3. You are very well aware that listing the Freedom Association among the “associated entities” with SPS has absolutely no legal meaning and is bellow the level of anyone who claims to be a lawyer. SPS is a political party and Freedom Association is a non-governmental and non-partisan organization. These two entities are completely legally independent one from each other. Following the same logic of who is “associated” with whom you can also ban visits of all Serbs and finally of all human beings.

  So, after he has been in many respects deprived in comparison with other detainees when the visits are concerned (he was the only one kept in total isolation so long at the beginning of his detention; he is the only one whose family can visit him for only three days in a month; now his wife can not visit him at all; he is often not informed about the requests of the people who apply to visit him; many visitors were denied access with false justification that he didn’t request to see them, in spite he made written requests etc.) President Milosevic is now cut of the visits from the only home organization which protects his human rights and from his closest associates, which also seriously affects his right to defense.

  We expect you to change your wrong decision immediately. Otherwise, we will be forced to take other legal and public measures in order to protect law and justice.

  Belgrade, August 19th, 2003

  On behalf of Freedom Association

  Igor Raicevic, Chairman of the Assembly

  (COPY of letter protesting the ICTY refusal ends)

  Comment:

  In continuation of the above correspondance it has been suggested that it may also be "time to attack the fact that President Milosevic is prohibited to talk to media, when at the same time both the Tribunal and its Prosecution have several spokespersons who talk to media all the time!

  The criminal political mechanisms of the Hague machinery, which in the panic of total defeat try to destroy the victor, should be totally exposed and stopped."

  Certainly the explanation offered by ICTY for 'denying' further requests for visits - namely that "members of the SPS delegation gave statements to media" - appear to merit urgent legal and public reaction.

  This may well kick start, I suppose, the new 'media strategy' suggested by Pythagoras Crotoniatis and others...

  (I too do certainly second the idea of employing Vera Martinovic as an anchor(wo)man in such an effort).

  c.c. Various Finnish, Swedish, Norwegian, Icelandic and Danish media.
  
  Godfred Louis-Jensen
  Copenhagen
  D E N M A R K

• Wednesday August 20, 2003 at 9:57 pm
  Mr. Israel (Tuesday August 19, 2003 at 4:36 am), you may continue to insist on your re-wording of Gogol's thoughts, as is your wont (rather, your will). I'll try to say no more about it, allowing other readers here to judge Gogol's words. If you want to see a holocaust denier behind every pillar and post, so be it.

  I will, however, say a little more about your charactisation of JP's post as "elegantly put". Perhaps I misjudged you, you didn't at least say correctly put, but elegantly put. If you examined many of JP's previous posts, I believe you'll find that there is little that was correctly put.

  My rapid fire knowledge of French is unfortunately limited to "Bonjour!", "Merci beaucoup", "Comment ca va?, and so on. I wonder therefore if Mr. Wilcoxson would be good enough to reperform his translation service on Jo Crow's response to my post: Tuesday August 19, 2003 at 6:10 am, as he so did for P WP. I see the word "Bravo" there, so I guess it's at least vaguely flattering. It'd be nice to be clear about it, though, especially as so much stuff put here recently (eg: about ICDSM) isn't.

  Peter Taylor (Tuesday August 19, 2003 at 7:21 am). One of my points was my own lack of time. I also assumed that you might also want to make any such material for publication as complete as possible - replete with references - and so on. If you're happy with your original 'article' posted here 'as is', then that's OK by me. Just E-Mail it to me, (check my webpages for E-Mail address(es)), in order to save me hunting it out again amongst Jurist's unfriendly archives.

  Please note that unlike some here, I don't exhort people to send me money (fat chance, but anyone's welcome to ;-); nor do I have access to useful credit card numbers (again if anyone wants to change this regrettable situation, please feel free ;-). I would output even more were such the cases, but to be honest, I get more than pissed off at times with all this real death stuff, as opposed to real life stuff.

  Godfred (Tuesday August 19, 2003 at 8:43 am), hello again. Whereas there might be an element or more than, of mind-meld between thee and me, the mind-meld I was referring to was that between the Emperor's Clothes web-site, so extremely wittily now re-dubbed by P WP of Lower Canada, as TheIDF'sNewFatigues.com, and those howling yelping jackals who run the FreeRepublic website.

  Btw, Godred (I think it was you), you incorrectly ascribed the release of MI6's plot to kill Milosevic to David Shayler. Shayler was MI5, the release was by Richard Tomlinson, who was MI6. Sorry, seems a minor correction, but there's so much BS flying around here at the moment, just thought I'd try to keep at least one thing accurate.

  Incidentally, P WP, I had occasion to use the following sentence a little way back in the archives now, in relation to TENC:

  "Emperor's Clothes has no clothes."

  any sense. I am now struggling to discern any meaning in sentences such as: ""My" Prime Minister's got no Prime Minister", "My bedside table's got no bedside table", and so on.

  Milan Prika (Tuesday August 19, 2003 at 1:38 pm). Hi there. Nice to see the one from ... er ... was it Ecuador, or Peru? wherever, who seemed to have great difficulty in completing a game of tic-tac-toe, seems to have made a welcome disappearance. I think among other things she extolled the great virtues of the English language in spreading "civilisation" (sic), and yet remarkably insisted in posting in Spanish most of the time. Go figure.

  P WP (Tuesday August 19, 2003 at 5:41 pm):

  Je ne suis pas américain. Je suis britannique. J'ai été aux USA assez longtemps à naturaliser, mais j'ai figuré que je n'étais pas vraiment disposé à supporter la douleur d'avoir la moitié de mon cerveau sucé dehors par mon nez avec une paille.

  ... avec les excuses la plus sinceres à la langue française, et ces Américains excellents, comme Jo Crow, qui sont inclus regrettablement dans mon stéréotype inexcusable. Hé, mais il est drôle, et moi ne pourrait pas lui résister. Le comédie excuse presque tous, mais pas un guerre-crime de meutre de masse basé sur des prétextes faux.

  I too am extremely interested in ICDSM affairs and shinnanegans. This forum seems as good a place as any to clarify these. More than enough passes behind closed doors in this World.

  " ... pervasive climate of pro-Muslim, pro-Arab, pro-Palestinian sentiment in Dubya's America, and its stultifying effect on free discussion ... . ;-) I like it.

  David (Wednesday August 20, 2003 at 5:12 am). As well as rescuing Klaus Barbie when his continued presence in Europe post WW II became "embarassing", the Americans also rescued Hitler's favourite Jack-boot, Otto Skorzeny (the guy who rescued Mussolini), whisking them both off to South America. No doubt Herr Skorzeny was extremely useful to the CIA there as they developed their Death-Squad "diplomacy". EinsatzGruppen, anyone?

  I started to think a long time ago that the main thing wrong with the NAZIs from the American Foreign Policy point of view is that they weren't Americans. Alternatively, did the precursors of the CIA adopt Gehlen's SS spook network (to put the boot in against the Soviets at every opportunity) or was it the other way around?

  Another little snippet, you see on dcumentaries on US TV about how Dutch Uncle Goerring dropped the poison pill at Nuremberg, rather than facing the hangman. I don't recall yet seeing one that mentions that the poison pill was passed to him by a 'sympathetic' American guard. Sympathetic to what, I wonder?

  I tried to impress Jared Israel as to the illogicality of his conclusion that Gogol made any holocaust denying statements, but as he chose to reply repeating his misinterpretation, I figure it's a lost cause. To be expected, I guess, when EC starts high-fiving FreeRepublic afficionados.

  Well the big-guns have certainly come out to play here, haven't they? Names that were just once those oft occurring during frantic web-searches as the scales fell from eyes over Yugoslavia. Chris Black is now added to the list. Hello, Mr. Black. Who's next, Ramsey Clark? John Laughland? James Bissett?

  And now Tony Blair. ;-)

  Name dropper. Who, moi?

  Btw, Mr. Blair, now that you have deigned to contribute to a public forum, there are several outstanding communications from myself and others that you haven't yet replied to. Would you be so good to attend to these at your earliest convenience:

  Iraq - Open Letter to Tony Blair

  Brits4Peace follow-up to Open Letter to Tony Blair

  Second Open Letter to Prime Minister Tony Blair

  Some of them are getting rather long in the tooth now, albeit still more or less completely relevant, as none of the points have been answered.

  There's a "good" chap. ;-)
  
  Dennis The Menace
  Etats-Unis

• Wednesday August 20, 2003 at 10:56 pm
  Dennis,

  No, - it wasn't me, who "ascribed the release of MI6's plot to kill Milosevic to David Shayler."

  Who then? Quite frankly I do not know what you are talking about (in that respect), - but do I enjoy it!

  Pleased to see you onboard...
  
  Godfred Louis-Jensen
  Copenhagen
  D E N M A R K

• Thursday August 21, 2003 at 12:25 am
  Indeed, Godfred, it was our friend Peter Taylor, as a quick Google revealed:

  http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=jurist+%2Bshayler

  Apologies.

  P.S: this seems almost as good a way as any to search Jurist's unfriendly archives: just do a Google on relevant words.
  
  Dennis Revell
  Etats-Unis

• Thursday August 21, 2003 at 12:29 am
  Severe limitations imposed on mr. Milosevic's visitation rights, which now threaten the Presidents communications so vital for his defence case, are hardly news, - as will be remembered from Nico Varkevisser's introduction to an early ICDSM press conference in Amsterdam:

  RAMSEY CLARK SLAMS HAGUE 'TRIBUNAL', 2 August 2001.

  http://www.iacenter.org/hague_rc.htm
  
  Godfred Louis-Jensen
  Copenhagen
  D E N M A R K

• Thursday August 21, 2003 at 2:00 am
  The only comments that Mr. Zoran Andjelkovic, and Mr. Milorad Vucelic made to the media were that President Milosevic insisted on being questioned about the murder of Ivan Stambolic and the attempted murder of Vuk Draskovic in public and on television.

  Slobodan Milosevic has stated this publicaly and in open session at the Tribunal. The tribunal is lying when it says "it is clear that the only possible source of the information referred to in the articles was the SPS delegation."

  An alternative source could have been the tribunal's own public transcripts, specifically the March 31, 2003 transcript.

  SEE: http://www.slobodan-milosevic.org/news/aptr080503.htm
  
  Andy Wilcoxson
  Washington, United States

• Thursday August 21, 2003 at 2:01 am
  The only comments that Mr. Zoran Andjelkovic, and Mr. Milorad Vucelic made to the media were that President Milosevic insisted on being questioned about the murder of Ivan Stambolic and the attempted murder of Vuk Draskovic in public and on television.

  Slobodan Milosevic has stated this publicaly and in open session at the Tribunal. The tribunal is lying when it says "it is clear that the only possible source of the information referred to in the articles was the SPS delegation."

  An alternative source could have been the tribunal's own public transcripts, specifically the March 31, 2003 transcript.

  SEE: http://www.slobodan-milosevic.org/news/aptr080503.htm
  
  Andy Wilcoxson
  Washington, United States

• Thursday August 21, 2003 at 7:41 am
  Peter Tayolr et. al., Thsk for digging up the statistics which establish beyond-a-shadow-of-a-doubt that Kosovo and Metohija is more dangerous than before.

  Please note that the post-occupation statistics invariably show approx. a 50/50 ratio between "murders" and "kidnapping". (some 1,100-1,400 murders and 1,200 - 1,800 kidnappings).

  Since some of these unsolved "kidnappings" are more than 2-3 years old with no ransom demands from the kidnappers.......one can reasonably conclude the post-occupation stats effectively halves the murder rate.

  
  
  Max Sinclair
  NY
  NY

• Thursday August 21, 2003 at 11:26 am
  

  I will reply later to the personal slanders against me, issued by Chris Black in lieu of political answers yesterday. Christopher Black's lies areintended to rebut by smear my accurate statement that the Legal Committee of the ICDSM was a fiction, especially since February 2002, and Chris Black's Chairmanship likewise.

  Christopher Black and others have made several concrete claims: 1) Chris Black says that he, Dave Jacobs and Ramsey Clark of the "lawyer's committee" helped Nico Steijnen, who conducted *all* legal actions for Milosevic.

  2) Various people have claimed that Jacques Verges was involved in Nico Steijnen's case before the European Court. I have been unable to reach Steijnen, but I do have the email he sent out in response to the original "proposal" made by the clique led by Vladimir Krsljanin and Klaus Hartmann that now claims to have taken over the ICDSM and expelled me and Nico Varkevisser.

  Notice that 1) Steijnen says "I am waiting now already a couple of years for some ICDSM-support for my legal work on behalf of President Milosevic."

  2) Steijnen is especially contemptuous of Verges and Clark, who he says "only make statements, but do not react on appeals for co-operation" (i.e., they don't answer his messages) and "in fact they do nothing at all, else than, occasionally, usurp the work that I have done on his [Milosevic's] behalf, before the European Court of Human Rights."

  3) He rejects the "national committees" touted by Klaus Hartmann and Vladimir Krsljanin as the supposed basis of their new ICDSM. He astutely notices that they have a political (not defense) agenda. He has detected the presence of Ramsey Clark's IAC. The IAC's style is so loud and arrogant that even Steijnen, who is mono-obssessed with legal matters, smells the rat.

  Perhaps now Mr. Black will say that three years ago Nico Steijnen robbed him. Or perhaps he will threaten to sue Steijnen, as he threatened Andy Wilcoxson when Andy criticized Ramsey Clark and Vladimir Krsljanin.

  ----- Original Message ----- From: Sagittarius To: Klaus Hartmann ; Aldo Bernardini Cc: Ruza ; office@globalreflexion.org Sent: Friday, July 25, 2003 2:46 PM Subject: Re: ON THE FUTURE WORK OF ICDSM

  COMMENTS BY NICO STEIJNEN

  I only will comment on the question of legal defense, since all the other questions are irrelevant to me.

  1. I am waiting now already a couple of years for some ICDSM-support for my legal work on behalf of President Milosevic. What may I expect from the ICDSM in the next future on this issue ?

  2. Mind you that there is a big difference between legal action against the human rights violations of Mr. Milosevic and participation on the organisation of his defense case before the tribunal.

  So what should be our priority now ? We cannot do all, overstretch ourselves only in solemn declarations and perform nothing at all. We should set priorities.

  3. For all legal work a good communication with Mr. Tomanovic and Ognjanovic is needed. This communication doesn''t work at all, till now.

  4. There is, with regard to cooperation in the field of legal action, no communication with Ramsey Clarke and Verges. They only make statements, but do not react on appeals for co-operation.

  5. They claim both, periodically, in public statements to do legal work for Mr. Milosevic, but in fact they do nothing at all, else than, occasionally, usurp the work that I have done on his behalf, before the European Court of Human Rights.

  6. We don''t need new national branches, doubtless politically tied up to some agendas. The only thing we need now is a tough legal working group of skilled people, acting politically independent, dedidated to the legal defense of mr. Milosevic.

  (And, besides since it is not my field, a profesionally operating fund raising organisation, that is able to sell Mr. Milosevic' struggle, all over the world, as a project, worth to support financially.)

  I am sure that this is all completely in line with the expectations of Mr. Milosevic himself.

  best regards,

  Nico Steijnen

  
  
  Jared Israel
  US

• Thursday August 21, 2003 at 11:32 am
  Andy Wilcoxson,

  You may me right in which were "the only comments that Mr. Zoran Andjelkovic and Mr. Milorad Vucelic made" subsequent to their visit in the Hague (August 21, 2003 at 2:01 am).

  However there may be more to it: In view of the possible consequences for the defence case of mr. Milosevic I'd suggest that mr. Holthuis, the ICTY Registrar, for a start be forced to document, which "two articles were published in the media in Belgrade, which quoted from Mr. Vucelic and Mr. Andjelkovic respectively in relation to the details of the visit."

  Exactly which information was, in the view of mr. Holthuis, "quoted from Mr. Vucelic and Mr. Andjelkovic respectively in relation to the details of the visit" (in "flagrant breach" of which rules and regulations of the Tribunal)?

  To me mr. Holthuis statement, that "they (the visitors) were cautioned that the dissemination to the media of any information disclosed to the media in any form is prohibited" sounds nonsensical, - or at least surprisingly flawed as a basis for a decision of such wideranging consequence for the defence case of mr. Milosevic.

  This particular matter appear to be for a trained lawyer to pursue...

  Will it be thus pursued?
  
  Godfred Louis-Jensen
  Copenhagen
  D E N M A R K

• Thursday August 21, 2003 at 11:39 am
  Dennis

  No, I doubt you will hear from John Laughland or Clark. I wasn't intending to get into this scrap either but the straw that broke the camel's back was Jared Israel's attack (supported by his page boy Andy Wilcoxscon) against the very founder of the ICDSM, Dr. Velko Valkanov, and against Vladimir Krsljanin, whose dedication to and hard work on behalf of Milosevic and the ICDSM has kept the whole thing going and who, for his troubles, was arrested and detained by the fascist quislings in Belgrade just a couple of months ago.

  While Jared Israel sits in comfort in Newton, Mass. and Wilcoxscon in Bellingham, Washington, others like Krsljanin put their lives on the line for Milosevic.

  Others, such as Zdenko Tomanovic and Misha Ojdjanovic, the two Yugoslav lawyers from Belgrade, assisting Milosevic on a daily basis in The Hague (which again puts the lie to Israel's assertion that Milosevic does not want legal advice) have been working now for over 18 months without pay and are exhausted. They need help. These two lawyers are the real legal heros of this drama. Their dedication and commitment and their willigness to work without pay and in the face of threats from the US government and the DOS regime are almost unparallelled among lawyers in the world. I wish I had their fortitude and courage. Their struggle alone deserves to be told.

  The attack on Krsljanin and Valkanov, for me, was the point at which, unfortunately, the gloves came off.

  But there is not much more to say about this now. As others here and elsewhere have said it is time to move on to positive actions in support of Milosevic and against the ICTY and the ICTR.

  Robert Hessen, Pythagoras Crotoniatis - Your suggestions are good ones. The problem is resources. These ideas have been discussed and we would like to institute them but it is a question of personnel and money. Whether people accept it or not, there are no funds available to us. Everyone on the ICDSM has committed their time and absorbed large expenses gratis. No one is being paid for our involvement. Not a penny. However the need for funds is paramount. Zdenko and Misha need money to hire investigators, to hire experts for testimony at the trial, to provide them with some sort of stipend so they can provide for their families who are suffering hardship. Money is needed for translations and for employing to someone to follow the trial and keep the press and world apprised of developments. To this end the ICDSM is engaged in trying to raise funds to achieve these objectives. Not an easy task.
  
  Christopher Black
  Toronto
  Canada

• Thursday August 21, 2003 at 11:40 am
  Well I really am not sure what to make of the exchanges between some participants.

  What I am certain of is that some of what has been said here in the past has been exposed as being mistruths. I dont have time (nor the inclination) to go back and check but I certainly feel misled by Andy / Jared into believing that ICDSM was divided into subsections. Maybe that was my own conclusion I dont know.

  Christopher Black I wholeheartedly agree with your statements about Guantanamo. That is the consistant position to hold. One must apply the same rules of fairness to everyone no matter how distasteful. Personally I dont have much time for Milosevic, the politician and the SPS agenda but thats by the by. The focus must be upon justice. It is something that everyone can agree upon. I urge everyone to stick to this point because it will win over more people. To coin an analogy it should not be about us all on the Titanic making an almighty stink (or loud screams) as we go down. All of us aboard the ship of justice should be making an almighty stink but also using buckets to prevent us from sinking. We have to get more people aboard this ship to help the cause. I dont agree that Milosevic has already won as some participants have stated. I think that the battle is still on and we need more manpower.

  So the message is do not get diverted. Its time for a bit of moderation and reason. Lets ask somebody like Vera if she can possibly get more media coverage in Serbia and beyond for the cause. She has shown herself to be apolitical so more people will listen to her.

  Let us also try to find principled mainstream / alternative journalists to give us a fair hearing in our own countries. We must be honest - the tactics thus far have not been efective even though the cause is just. We all have to accept some of the blame for that.
  
  Alf Bentley
  UK

• Thursday August 21, 2003 at 11:59 am
  DR: my apologies for construing your locale as also being your nationality. Duly noted. On the off-chance that Andy’s no longer disposed to provide pro bono translation for us, a quickie gist of what joe wrote you is: Dennis Revell: you write too well. Bravo! We don’t have the right to ask, but I hope you will pardon us Americans a little. It’s not easy to find the truth here and it takes a lot of time to get well informed about how the world works. One must read and read and read and forget entirely all that one’s learned in school and on TV. Anyway, I agree with you, unfortunately. The real Left is dead here [in America]. What exists is a sophisticated structure to hide the truth and confuse people who want to know the truth and do good. We can no longer have confidence in Chomsky, Israel [methinks he refers to the dude, not the country - tr], etc. They’ve probably already been bought and sold by persons unknown. That’s how it is. It’s too bad. That’s life

  I took the liberty b/c I pretty much agree with you and joe that much of what passes for the Left in the West has a lot to answer for with respect to the Balkans and what was essentially its support for imperialism’s line. There’s a great article by Petras which deals with how the West’s designer left has stabbed the institutional left in Cuba and Serbia and elsewhere in the back at this link, btw:

  http://www.rebelion.org/petras/english/petrasmay12003.htm

  and also Michael Parenti’s piece on l’après-communisme: http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/27c/046.html

  I didn’t want to pursue the subject further, the better not to test the patience of the site’s moderator, since one could argue it’s off-topic, except that it’s well to wonder whether Milosevic would even *be* in an N W O slammer right now and Serbia fed to these comprador dogs if all the Western left and peace movement had really stood up for Yugoslavia (the way Ramsey Clark and IAC did).
  
  P WP
  Bas Canada

• Thursday August 21, 2003 at 12:09 pm
  

  I will reply later to the personal slanders against me, issued by Chris Black in lieu of political answers yesterday. His lies, some silly, some vicious, were an amazingly bold and arrogant bluff (the style, by the way, of Ramsey Clark's IAC) intended to rebut by slander my accurate statement that the so-called Legal Committee of the ICDSM was, at least since the start of the "trial", a fiction, and his Chairmanship likewise.

  Christopher Black and others have made several concrete claims: 1) Chris Black says that he, Dave Jacobs and Ramsey Clark of the "lawyer's committee" helped Nico Steijnen, the man who conducted *all* legal actions for Milosevic. 2) Various people have claimed that Jacques Verges was involved in Nico Steijnen's case before the European Court. I have been unable to reach Steijnen, but I do have the email he sent out in response to the original "proposal" made by the clique led by Vladimir Krsljanin and Klaus Hartmann that now claims to have taken over the ICDSM and expelled me and Nico Varkevisser.

  Notice that 1) Steijnen says "I am waiting now already a couple of years for some ICDSM-support for my legal work on behalf of President Milosevic."

  2) He is especially contemptuous of Verges and Clark, who he says "only make statements, but do not react on appeals for co-operation" and "in fact they do nothing at all, else than, occasionally, usurp the work that I have done on his [Milosevic's] behalf, before the European Court of Human Rights."

  3) He rejects the "national committees" touted by Klaus Hartmann and Vladimir Krsljanin as the supposed basis of their new ICDSM. He astutely notices that they have a political (not defense) agenda. The IAC's style is so loud and arrogant that even Steijnen, who is mono-obssessed with legal matters, smells a rat.

  Perhaps now Mr. Black will issue a statement that three years ago Nico Steijnen robbed him. Or perhaps he will threaten to sue Nico Steijnen, as he threatened Andy Wilcoxson when Andy criticized Ramsey Clark and Vladimir Krsljanin.

  ----- Original Message ----- From: Sagittarius To: Klaus Hartmann ; Aldo Bernardini Cc: Ruza ; office@globalreflexion.org Sent: Friday, July 25, 2003 2:46 PM Subject: Re: ON THE FUTURE WORK OF ICDSM

  COMMENTS BY NICO STEIJNEN

  I only will comment on the question of legal defense, since all the other questions are irrelevant to me.

  1. I am waiting now already a couple of years for some ICDSM-support for my legal work on behalf of President Milosevic. What may I expect from the ICDSM in the next future on this issue ?

  2. Mind you that there is a big difference between legal action against the human rights violations of Mr. Milosevic and participation on the organisation of his defense case before the tribunal.

  So what should be our priority now ? We cannot do all, overstretch ourselves only in solemn declarations and perform nothing at all. We should set priorities.

  3. For all legal work a good communication with Mr. Tomanovic and Ognjanovic is needed. This communication doesn''t work at all, till now.

  4. There is, with regard to cooperation in the field of legal action, no communication with Ramsey Clarke and Verges. They only make statements, but do not react on appeals for co-operation.

  5. They claim both, periodically, in public statements to do legal work for Mr. Milosevic, but in fact they do nothing at all, else than, occasionally, usurp the work that I have done on his behalf, before the European Court of Human Rights.

  6. We don''t need new national branches, doubtless politically tied up to some agendas. The only thing we need now is a tough legal working group of skilled people, acting politically independent, dedidated to the legal defense of mr. Milosevic.

  (And, besides since it is not my field, a profesionally operating fund raising organisation, that is able to sell Mr. Milosevic' struggle, all over the world, as a project, worth to support financially.)

  I am sure that this is all completely in line with the expectations of Mr. Milosevic himself.

  best regards,

  Nico Steijnen

  
  
  Jared Israel
  US

• Thursday August 21, 2003 at 2:09 pm
  P WP:

  Thanks for the translation. But although Jo's French was perfect (so it seemed to me), it was also simple enough for me to understand every word.

  My "appeal" to Andy Wilcoxon was just a shot in the dark to see if I could con one of the New Israelites into repeating Jo's most flattering and very much appreciated words.

  One of the New Jared Israelites, that is.

  Decided it was a remote possibility, so lapsed into (poor) French myself anyway, in the bit that was none too polite to those from Lower Lower (sic) Canada.
  
  Dennis Revell
  Etats-Unis

• Thursday August 21, 2003 at 7:02 pm
  AP, August 19, 2003 Muslim charity founder sentenced Arnaout had ties to bin Laden, prosecutors alleged CHICAGO, A Muslim charity leader linked by prosecutors to Osama bin Laden’s terrorist network was sentenced Monday to more than 11 years in federal prison for defrauding donors. The man, Enaam Arnaout, 41, a Syrian-born U.S. citizen who says he has met bin Laden but opposes terrorism, was calm as the sentence was imposed by U.S. District Judge Suzanne B. Conlon. The government’s investigation of Arnaout and his Benevolence International Foundation, based in suburban Palos Hills until it was shut down in 2002, has been a major component of the war on terrorism. Attorney General John Ashcroft traveled to Chicago to announce the charges against Arnaout when he was indicted. Arnaout (pronounced ARR-not) pleaded guilty to a racketeering charge, admitting that he diverted thousands of dollars from the foundation to support Islamic military groups in Bosnia and Chechnya. Conlon sentenced Arnaout to 11 years and four months in prison. He must serve nearly 10 years before he is eligible for parole. She gave him a term longer than the eight to 10 years called for in sentencing guidelines because, she said, because the $200,000 to $400,000 he funneled to military groups deprived needy refugees of important aid. Conlon had declined a prosecution request to boost the sentence to 20 years on the basis of Arnaout’s ties to members of bin Laden’s al-Qaida network. She said the links supplied grounds for suspicion but did not constitute evidence that he backed terrorism. She ordered Arnaout to pay $315,624 in restitution and recommended that it be turned over to the United Nations for refugee work. DEFENDANT MAINTAINS INNOCENCE Arnaout, looking tired after more than a year in solitary confinement, spoke briefly before the court, saying he had been kidnapped by the government. He insisted that he was innocent. "I came to this country to enjoy freedom and justice," Arnaout said. "I came to have a peaceful life." Arnaout claimed to have answered all the questions put to him by prosecutors in their investigation of al-Qaida. His attorneys said he met bin Laden in the 1980s when the terrorist mastermind was part of the U.S.-supported struggle of Afghan fighters to expel the Soviet army. But they say he has had nothing to do with bin Laden in recent years. Prosecutors say he lied about his associations with bin Laden and his supporters. Among other things, they said one of bin Laden’s top aides, Mamdouh Salim, traveled to Bosnia with papers showing that Salim was a board member of Benevolence International. They also said that Arnaout hired a man described by U.S. Attorney Patrick Fitzgerald as "a famous member of al Qaida" to serve as the charity’s top man in Chechnya.
  
  Dakic Ana
  Serbia

• Thursday August 21, 2003 at 8:01 pm
  

  Just a simple question: who represents Enaam Arnaout, who is his defence council, did he speak up?
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Shangri-La

• Thursday August 21, 2003 at 8:05 pm
  

  Boots for Chechnyan rebels and uniforms for Bosnian troops.
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Shangri-La

• Thursday August 21, 2003 at 8:08 pm
  

  "Support of Bosnian and Chechen fighters did not constitute an act of terrorism,"
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Shangri-La

• Thursday August 21, 2003 at 8:09 pm
  

  "The government convicted him before he was found guilty. They labeled him a terrorist," Duffy told the judge during the Arnaout's sentencing hearing. "You would think he was Osama bin Laden the way they treated him."

  
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Shangri-La

• Thursday August 21, 2003 at 8:15 pm
  

  A small detail

  If Arnout got 11 years for boots and uniforms fraud, I wonder how much Enrom should have got? 60 seconds!
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Shangri-La

• Thursday August 21, 2003 at 8:36 pm
  

  "Once a country accords certain rights on the basis of an international convention, it can't go back on that," Fermon said.

  Those little countries . . .
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Shangri-La

• Thursday August 21, 2003 at 8:43 pm
  

  Change of Wind
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Shangri-La

• Friday August 22, 2003 at 12:04 pm
  IT'S TIME FOR REASON...

  Alf Bentley, obviously the battle (for justice!) is still on, - all would agree with you on that! You are right in suggesting, that "we need more manpower", - and in that it is time for reason (August 21, 2003 at 11:40 am).

  It is also time to accept, that people like mr. Vladimir Krsljanin, as Christopher Black says, "put their lives on the line for Milosevic", and to act in accordance with the fact that Krsljanin and others in the SLOBODA/Freedom Association, along with lawyers mr. Zdenko Tomanovic and mr. Misha Ojdjanovic and others, who are assisting the President in The Hague, are "the real heroes."

  Mr. Milosevic apart these people - typically from Serbia - are, and must remain the anchormen in your Titanic drama - along with "someone like Vera" as you rightly mention.

  Yes, "we" may have been too slow in moving towards reason, - but "we" have been on the move though, Alf Bentley, - and at an increasing speed as you can surely see from the JURIST trial discussion.

  Since as a discussion participant - a member of the public (and no lawyer) - I have admittedly "stated" or at least offered my opinion that "Milosevic has (already) won", let me briefly stress that I never thought of that (fact!) as any reason for calling off the battle. While not (yet?) acquitted Mr. Milosevic may surely still be convicted by this false "tribunal" - even if it must be clear to anyone who cares to see, that the President is not guilty as charged in the Indictment.

  As I read the Trial Transcripts they only confirm my early impressions - or suspicions - in particular (but not exclusively) on the incident at the village of Racak, which was at the time so crucial for misleading the public and (as far as "Kosovo" is concerned) remain the only "count" against mr. Milosevic and others prior to NATO's war of attack in 1999. On that basis I do maintain, that "Milosevic has won" - and I agree with whoever in this forum wrote some time ago, that the silence in the (Western) press speaks volumes.

  The evidence is there! Hence it is crucial to battle any limitations imposed on mr. Milosevic's visitation rights, which now threaten the communications so vital for his defence case (August 20, 2003 at 8:37 pm).

  It is not difficult to imagine that now, facing the defence case, "the need for funds is paramount," as mr. Christopher Black says (August 21, 2003 at 11:39 am). You challenged me for relaying the SLOBODA's urgent appeal for funds in this forum - but don't you now agree, that this was not only correct and right, but also the least I could do?

  I sincerely believe, that all that is needed for mr. Milosevic to be seen to have won is already there, - except the funds required to make all the evidence operational! Hence the raising of funds must be at the heart of future actions of SLOBODA, and of ICDSM or anyone related to the just cause of mr. Milosevic, the Serbian people - and the misguided peoples of NATO countries (like Denmark).
  
  Godfred Louis-Jensen
  Copenhagen
  D E N M A R K

• Friday August 22, 2003 at 12:09 pm
  

  Chris Black accuses me of making personal attacks on members of the ICDSM. But Nico Varkevisser and I have not criticized the morals and personalities of Ramsey Clark and Jacques Verges. We've been writing about their political words and deeds. By contrast, Christopher Black attempts character assassination, culminating in his post calling me incompetent, egomaniacal, and even a thief. To achieve greatest damage, Chris Black accused me of overcharging him on one of two credit card donations he said he made to Emperor's Clothes. (Actually he made over fifteen separate donations but then what’s a fact?) The obvious purpose: to smear me while frightening people who might consider making a donation.

  Why would he invent this tale of misconduct 3 years past? Because unable to refute me and Nico on Verges and Clark, he resorts to flinging mud. Chris Black's behavior raises the question: has this man no integrity?

  We have already seen from Nico Steijnen's email that Black was lying about the "Legal Committee" helping Steijnen. Steijnen's own words: "1. I am waiting now already a couple of years for some ICDSM-support for my legal work on behalf of President Milosevic." So Black lied.

  *Is* he without integrity? Let's contrast two emails he sent out regarding Ramsey Clark.

  A few weeks ago, Andy Wilcoxson, one of the best activists about Serbia, and one who not only talks but has actually produced material refuting lies, wrote Vladimir Krsljanin of Sloboda and ICDSM. He asked Vladimir Krsljanin if President Milosevic had approved the reinstallation of Ramsey Clark as Vice Chairman, or if Krsljanin, Klaus Hartmann, Klaus Von Rausendorff et al had reinstalled Ramsey Clark in defiance of Slobodan Milosevic. A good question and one which Vladimir Krsljanin refused to answer, instead broadcasting an email calling Andy a gangster and threatening to expel him. Andy wrote again, same question. Chris Black responded twice in a blatantly thuggish attempt to intimidate this young man. The first reply has been posted on this list. Here's the second:

  [Chris Black's Letter to Wilcoxson starts here]

  -----Original Message----- From: Christopher Black [mailto:antinato@hotmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2003 12:18 PM To: andywilcoxson@comcast.net Subject: Re: A 3rd open letter to Vladimir Krsljanin

  Mr. Wilcoxson,

  You received the reply to your questions from me so why do you persist in this bullshit? Why haven't you responded to me or are you too afraid?

  Your attempts at sabotaging the ICDSM are now known all over the Internet. Your credibility is zilch. Your intentions are more than questionable. Your question is simply a false accusation with the clear objective of trying to sabotage the ICDSM. Everyone sees through it.

  Are you so stupid that you think you can continue this childish campaign. And everyone knows who is really behind this little campaign of yours.

  If you do not stop then we will take this as a campaign of defamation against every member of the committee and will take action against you in the State of Washington for defamation in which we will seek punitive damages. Be warned.

  Christopher Black, Chair, Legal Committee, ICDSM

  [Christopher Black's Letter to Wilcoxson ends here]

  Now let's consider what Chris Black wrote to Nico Varkevisser the day after Nico and I posted the first criticism of Ramsey Clark. Chris Black wrote: "I do not question the attack [on Ramsey Clark]." And that was only the beginning:

  [Start of Christopher Black's Email to Nico Varkevisser on Ramsey Clark]

  -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Christopher Black [mailto:bar@idirect.com] Verzonden: zaterdag 17 mei 2003 19:01 Aan: redactie@targets.org Onderwerp: Re: [indict-nato] Ramsey Clark Poses as Milosevic's Lawyer and Smears the "Client" on TV

  Nico,

  This is the first I have heard of Stejnen being in trouble. What is that all about? I cannot contact him as my address book along with everyhting else I had in my pc was wiped out by a worm. Had to get a new hrd drive and lost all my data. Can you advise? And why the attack on Clark at this particular time? I am not questioning the attack, just what prompted it to occur now. Has Clark done something else? By the way. Clark never defends his Hutu clients also who were royally screwed last month. Not one word about them when the situation for them is the same as for our friend at the Hague.

  Chris

  [End +of Christopher Black's Email to Nico Varkveisser on ramsey Clark]

  Note that Clark, who claims to lead the legal committee for Milosevic - the Chairman, no less -didn't know that The Hague Tribunal had been trying to disbar Nico Steijnen for almost a year.

  Regarding Clark, I don't know what kind of screwing Ramsey Clark allegedly gave his clients according to Chris Black, who works closely with Ramsey Clark at the Rwanda tribunal. But the charge is certainly of interest and is consistent with our own experience with Clark on several occasions during the fall of 2001 regarding Milosevic.

  But if Chris Black's unexplained charge is true, why does Christopher Black want Ramsey Clark to play such a big role in the Milosevic case against Milosevic's wishes? Indeed, why is he now employing gutter tactics to support Ramsey Clark, for whose work he has such contempt?

  Notice also that Christopher Black asks, "Has Clark done something else?" This refers to outrageous actions of Ramsey Clark regarding the Milosevic case in the fall of 2001, which of course Christopher Black knows all about. (He wrote Milosevic a letter about these actions at the time.) Again: given this, why is Black resorting to gutter lies and thuggish threats in the interests of Ramsey Clark?

  In keeping with the email to Nico Varkevisser, Christopher Black said nothing publicly against our Ramsey Clark articles until he about-faced with the attacks on Andy.

  Everyone can judge for himself the integrity of a man who writes *both* these messages, and who proposes, for his first legal action in the Milosevic case, suing Andy Wilcoxson.

  That Vladimir Krsljanin of Sloboda, and his pro-Ramsey Clarkclique so readily adopt thuggish threats and gutter lies, like the slanderous accusations against me, show a) the ugliness of their character and b) that they have their backs to the political wall. What else Christopher Black invent? He is capable of any lie. But doesn't all this raise the question: who is Chris Black?

  Or, as one might put it: who is your client, counselor.

  
  
  Jared Israel
  US

• Friday August 22, 2003 at 12:39 pm
  Sorry, I can't be sure, but I think it was from B92 yesterday, that I read Del Ponte states that the Milosevic trial will be finished by late 2004 or early 2005.
  
  M Donne
  Canada

• Friday August 22, 2003 at 2:15 pm
  Mr. Jared Israel,

  I must warn you, that even if by attacking Ramsey Clark for "posing as Milosevic's lawyer" you did not intend to "criticize his morals and personality", I saw you as doing exactly that (and have later been confirmed in that interpretation by e.g. mr. Wilcoxson's earlier, unwarranted statement of mistrust in the former U.S. Attorney General (ref. his letter of January 1st, 2003 to mr. Krsljanin).

  It my impression, that so did others.

  Do you honestly believe that these postings, such as your above attack on the character of Mr. Black and others ( August 22, 2003 at 12:09 pm), contribute in any way towards clarifying whether or not mr. Milosevic is getting a fair trial - let alone towards securing such noble goal?

  Even if your answer is "yes, I do", I'd suggest that you follow the advice of Pasha Ponomarenko (Monday August 18, 2003 at 7:38 pm) and "do it over email or open a designated page on YAHOO."
  
  Godfred Louis-Jensen
  Copenhagen
  D E N M A R K

• Friday August 22, 2003 at 2:20 pm
  Del Ponte's interesting statements to Corriere

  M. Donne refers to a B92 article of Aug. 21 highlighting Del Ponte's interview with Corriere della Sera.

  Quote from the article: " ... del Ponte has announced that the trial of Slobodan Milosevic should be concluded by late 2004 or early 2005."
  If B92's and Corriere's reporting is accurate, then Del Ponte's announcement is arbitrary and violates the current ICTY guidelines allowing the defense equal witness time to the prosecution's. In such case, legal pressure should be applied to ICTY to publicly reprimand Del Ponte. The problem is that with ICDSM in a dismal fratricidal state, there is no available channel through which such actions could be promoted.

  More interesting is her admission of difficulties in prosecuting Milosevic for genocide. It is always instructive to view Del Ponte as an apolitical egotistic psychopath who will do anything to satisfy the dominant obsession of this phase of her miserable anorgasmic life: convicting Milosevic for genocide. One hopes that these "difficulties" will lead her to more panic and blunders.
  
  Pythagoras Crotoniatis
  Greece

• Friday August 22, 2003 at 2:32 pm
  

  Insisting that the evidence against Milosevic at the time of the indictment was sufficient to mount a prosecution, Del Ponte said that she would never decide against prosecuting Milosevic simply because the charges would be difficult to prove before the court.

  RIEN NE VAS PLUS!

  That of course did not stop the troika from dismissing the case. How fair!
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Shangri-La

• Friday August 22, 2003 at 2:32 pm
  
  
  c g
  SG

• Friday August 22, 2003 at 3:18 pm
  Speaking to Italian daily Corriere della Sera, the ICTY's chief Carla del Ponte has announced that the "trial of Slobodan Milosevic" should be concluded by late 2004 or early 2005.

  So it "should"?

  It may be no less "interesting" that mrs. Clara del Ponte would at this stage - time run(ning) out - be caught insisting that the evidence against Milosevic at the time of the Indictment (22 May 1999 - and hence prior to the UN/NATO presence in Kosovo!) was "sufficient to mount a prosecution". Then why did she bother to add the Indictment(s) concerning "Croatia" and "Bosnia-Herzegovina", which are so heavily associated with "procedural difficulties" anyway?

  How reassuring, that "Del Ponte would never decide against prosecuting Milosevic simply because the charges would be difficult to prove before the court."

  May we laugh? Or may we look forward to her appointment as "chief prosecutor" of the ICC?

  I trust, that Pythagoras Crotoniatis is right in suggesting, that the ICTY guidelines are "allowing the defense equal witness time to the prosecution's"?

  But could we have this assertion confirmed by, say, someone from the "Legal Committee" of the ICDSM (in whatever state!)? Or by mr. Nico Steijnen? By the SLOBODA/Freedom Association or by all of these jointly, subsequent to some form of cooperation?

  Even if it were found worthwhile to pursue this particular point in order to pressure ICTY to "publicly reprimand" mrs. del Ponte, I wonder if such action would be a reasonable useage of limited financial resources? If "we" have to choose, is it then not rather more important, more reasonable to anticipate and even break the looming isolation of mr. Milosevic so obviously threatened through the action taken recently by the ICTY Court Management?

  My posting of August 20, 2003 at 8:37 pm, which include a copy of ICTY's letter dated 12 August 2003 from the ICTY Registrar, Hans Holthuis to mr. Milosevic, refers.

  In either case these matters could be handled by the SLOBODA/Freedom Association, I suppose - provided sufficient funds become available to keep this "Flagship" afloat (to use the rather appealing naval allegory introduced by Alf Bentley).
  
  Godfred Louis-Jensen
  Copenhagen
  D E N M A R K

• Friday August 22, 2003 at 3:54 pm
  Why has not the "Milosevic Trial News",

  (which is apparently supposed to support the struggle for fairness in this "trial", but picked up stuff like Michael Radu's article about Idi Amin, - the Ugandan dictator, a.k.a. "Big Daddy" or, more formally "His Excellency President for Life Field Marshal Al Hadj Doctor Idi Amin Dada, VC, DSO, MC, Lord of All the Beasts of the Earth and Fishes of the Sea and Conqueror of the British Empire in Africa in General and Uganda in Particular", a notorious murderer of 100.000 to 300.000 people and)

  which has a tendency to pick up utter crap reports if only they are hinting to the "trial" or mentioning the name of the former FRY President,

  picked up the Corriere della Sera interview with the ICTY Chief Prosecute - now seemingly more than 24 hours old? Could anybody please provide a link to a review maybe more comprehensiv than that given by the B92 article of Aug. 21st?
  
  Godfred Louis-Jensen
  Copenhagen
  D E N M A R K

• Friday August 22, 2003 at 4:58 pm
  

  Carla del Ponte will not be the prosecutor of the ICC. That post has already been taken by an Argentinean and you can see what the Argentines are planing regarding human rights

  Carlas has also lost Rwanda, a vacancy not filed yet.
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Shangri-La

• Friday August 22, 2003 at 5:50 pm
  Gogol,

  I do not really think, that Carla del Ponte matters, - in whatever position...

  However, as it must be considered most important to anticipate and even to break the looming isolation of mr. Milosevic (and others!) so obviously threatened through the action taken recently by the ICTY Registrar (to which my posting of August 20, 2003 at 8:37 pm refers), I do repeat that this matter could, and so it should, be handled by the SLOBODA/Freedom Association (which represents the President's incomparably most valuable expertice and direct day-to-day support) - provided of course that sufficient funds be available to keep SLOBODA afloat.

  Thus I hereby - again - RELAY the following:

  IMPORTANT INSTRUCTIONS FOR DONATION MONEY TRANSFERS

  Dear friends,

  Please, find bellow the information and SWIFT-Codes necessary to transfer money in different currencies to the German ICDSM bank account, which at the moment is the most efficient banking mechanism to put your donations on the disposal of Sloboda for the defense of Slobodan Milosevic.

  To make your donation by an international money transfer, just provide your local bank with the instructions valid for your currency.

  Sincerely,

  Vladimir Krsljanin, SLOBODA/Freedom Association

  1. Payment in EUR from inside EU

  Just use the IBAN (International Banking Account Number) DE 5150 8900 0001 0201 3409 for further credit to account of Mr. Peter Betscher, favor of: Volksbank Darmstadt eG, SWIFT-Code: DAVODE55

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  Payment via Bank of Montreal, Montreal (SWIFT: BOFMCAM2) favor of: Volksbank Darmstadt eG (SWIFT: DAVODE55) for further credit to account no. 102013409 of Mr. Peter Betscher

  9. Payment from Poland and Russia

  It is recommended to pay in EUR or USD using the following instructions:

  Payment in EUR

  Just use the IBAN (International Banking Account Number) DE 5150 8900 0001 0201 3409 for further credit to account of Mr. Peter Betscher, favor of: Volksbank Darmstadt eG, SWIFT Code: DAVODE55

  Payment in USD

  Payment via Bank of New York, NY (SWIFT: IRVTUS3N) favor of: Volksbank Darmstadt eG (SWIFT: DAVODE55) for further credit to account no. 102013409 of Mr. Peter Betscher

  For further questions, please contact Volksbank:

  Anja Folkerts

  Tel.: +49-6157-980-230, Fax: +49-6157-980-262

  Volksbank Darmstadt eG

  Hügelstr. 8 - 20, 64218 Darmstadt/Germany

  SWIFT: DAVO DE 55

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  Bankverbindung:

  LZB Darmstadt (BLZ) 508 900 00

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  Or Mr. Peter Betscher, who is in charge of the ICDSM account in Germany:

  e-mail: Peter_betscher@freenet.de
  
  Godfred Louis-Jensen
  Copenhagen
  D E N M A R K

• Friday August 22, 2003 at 8:15 pm
  Chris Black

  1) It is my impression that expert witnesses are paid for by the ICTY neither the defense nor the prosecution has to pay for the expert witnesses time

  2) Couldn't President Milosevic revisit the ICTY's decision which stopped ICTY funds from being used to pay his defense advisers/counsel ?

  
  
  AP V
  NY
  NY

• Friday August 22, 2003 at 10:16 pm
  

  To AP V

  Dear Sasa,

  Perhaps you have not followed the discussion, or perhaps the point was not made clearly enough: President Milosevic does not have "advisers/counsel". He employs two people who work for him doing research. They happen to be lawyers from Yugoslavia. They spend time reading: researchers. He insists on this distinction - never referring to them in the Tribunal as his lawyers, his advisers, or his defense counsel. Always as "my associates" - this is because he does not recognize that he is involved in a legal procedure. He is a man defending the truth about his country before a proceeding staged by kidnappers.

  If you re-read his exchange with Judge May, you will see, quite clearly, that it is the Tribunal that wishes him to have legal advisers and he who insists he wants none. That doesn't mean of course that he wants no help - he's not a fool. But he;s alos not a fool to accept that his associates are "advisers/counsel", which would of course constitute recognition that he was in a *legal* body. Hence the pressure from the start with so many people visiting him, such as Mr. Black, pressing him to change his tune and, in some form, accept counsel. Or adivsers. Or counselors. Or lawyers. Or attorneys. Or *something* that would constitute hidden reccognition of the Tribunal. Fortunately, the President is a stubborn and tough and sticks to his guns.

  This explains Milosevic's refusal to allow his assistants in the courtroom. Moreover, it is my understanding that President Milosevic has also refused to accept money from the Tribunal. Do you have information otherwise, Sasa? If so, please share the source, you know, the documentation. Perhaps I am mistaken. p>

  2) Regarding Mr. Black, he is not in contact with President Milosevic. He showed up to see him *once* since 2001. That surprise visit was almost a year ago. Surprising to us all, including the President, since the Tribunal had banned Mr. Black in 2001, and the ban was suddenly lifted without explanation, permitting his surprise visit.

  Here is a link to the exchange between President Milosevic and Mr. May in which the President clarifies the point you seem to have misunderstood entirely.I have posted it on TENC.

  
  
  Jared Israel
  US