MILOSEVIC TRIAL DISCUSSION ARCHIVE

Is Slobodan Milosevic getting a fair trial?
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• discussion archive

• Friday August 29, 2003 at 12:46 am
  The Erdemovic transcript (Aug. 25) is now avaliable.

  Upon looking at it I noticed a major inconsistancy in the story that I had previously not noticed when simply listening to the proceedings.

  When Erdemovic got to Srebrenica for the first time on July 11, 1995 he found that there were only 200 civilians there in total.

  However, when he returned on July 16th (5 days later) he said that he took part in the killing of 1,200 civilians from Srebrenica.

  A question that needs to be asked here, but that didn't get asked, is where did this other 1,000 civlians come from? After all, how could he have killed them if they weren't there to be killed in the first place?

  Something is fishy in Srebrenica.
  
  Andy Wilcoxson
  Washington, United States

• Friday August 29, 2003 at 2:47 am
  Hi, I've just recently finished reading the transcripts of Dr. Audrey Budding's testimony and crossexamination. For the first time in this trial the OTP brought a witness who was of Milosevic's calibre, both intellectually and morally. It was immedialtely apparent that they respected each other and were willing to allow for an honest difference of opinion. I personally felt that Milosevic came out stronger from the joust. If only somebody could put a green baize cloth over May, this trial could turn out to be really riveting. Dr. Budding was a true intellectual as opposed to ersatz ones like Paddy Ashdown and Ibrahim Rugova. Can anyone imagine any present day political leader matching wits with her with the same depth and flair as Milosevic? Blair , Clinton and Bush cannot hold a candle to him, which is why I will be very surprised if NATO's leaders will allow themselves to be grilled without their own lawyers present to butt in at each inconvenient question.
  
  Seshadri Raghavan
  India

• Friday August 29, 2003 at 6:19 am
  Dear Vera Martinovic,

  Again I thank you so much for your valuable accounts of the ICTY "trial", including that of August 28, 2003 at 11:54 am.

  Kindly allow me in response to your reference to the "investigation that you (I - glj) rightfully invoke", to stress that this should comprise only "forensic" investigation (as in the case of Racak).

  What is required IN ANY CASE is a comprehensive (police) investigation, a report aimed at clarifying all points outstanding, knitting them together into a credible theory as a basis for any charges.

  In some way I do deplore having been seen to reiterate this "all the time", as the need for proper investigation prior to a trial was always obvious to me (I believe, that I have once, if only briefly been describing in the JURIST debate the reaction of a very distinguished Danish lawyer, to whom I once reported my impressions of the sad state of affairs at the ICTY in this respect).

  I reckoned, that this was obvious for any serious observer. Inspired by your little hint(s), I shall now seek to follow up on this in my native surroundings, - which much to my longstanding annoyance are otherwise keeping quiet in face of this scandalous "trial" against mr. Milosevic "and others".

  Kindest regards,
  
  Godfred Louis-Jensen
  Copenhagen
  D E N M A R K

• Friday August 29, 2003 at 6:26 am
  CORRECTION to my response to Vera Martinovic, second clause to read:

  Kindly allow me in response to your reference to the "investigation that you (I - glj) rightfully invoke", to stress that this should comprise NOT ONLY "forensic" investigation...

  (but a comprehensive (police) investigation, a report aimed at clarifying all points outstanding, knitting them together into a credible theory as a basis for any charges).
  
  Godfred Louis-Jensen
  Copenhagen
  D E N M A R K

• Friday August 29, 2003 at 1:09 pm
  

  So, del Ponte is out of Africa, an African will take the role of prosecutor for they colonial masters. It must be more convincing if there is any one to convince. Of the whole gang at the ICTY Carla is the most popular with the media, they told us she is Swiss that she was tough prosecuting financial crimes (most appropriate for Switzerland) and that most Swiss involved in the judiciary there were happy to see her go to The Hague.

  But, what about the other stooges, for example judge Kwoon (OCCUPIED) beside being Korean what do we know of him? What is his legal background, was he famous for fighting trade unions or uncovering Korean official corruption or perhaps he advocates the prosecution of US soldiers, those skillful rapists and murderers, in Korean courts? We, don't know.

  And Robinson (COLONIAL) what do we know? He has already disagree with some of the court decisions but without making any difference since this tribunal need no consensus to reach a decision; two judges are enough no matter the argument. Is it that no fair, eh?

  And gospodin May (NATO), we know he likes politics (hard to believe), that he is a Laborer (it may explains why Blair is such a Schuft ) and that is it. Oh, yes he practiced some sort of administrative Law in provincial England, not very much for the task of international law, I say.

  So, if the ICTY and its sister in Rwanda are truly closed by the year 2010, the media would have had roughly 18 years to study this cast of characters as much as Madonna and her sexual (aha Mr. NIce (NATO)) inclinations, but like anything about this court and trials we are kept in the dark or lead to make assumptions because in fact we don't know very much of any substance except it is a colossal (and expensive) farce.
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Shangri-La

• Friday August 29, 2003 at 1:49 pm
  Today's "trial" report:

  http://www.slobodan-milosevic.org/news/smorg082903.htm
  
  Andy Wilcoxson
  Washington, United States

• Friday August 29, 2003 at 6:26 pm
  

  Who is Dominique Yugo?

  His name appeared first in the Srebrenica massacre, but at that time he was not known as Dominique Yugo, but rather Jugoslav Petrusic. After an investigation by the Yugoslav government at that time, it was confirmed that Mr. Yugo that he was an alleged member of the French secret service. It was also revealed that he had been under their command for the last ten years under whose he committed numerous terrorist attacks, assassinations and liquidations in the Former Yugoslavia, in Srebrenica, in Kosovo, in Algeria, Belgium, Spain and Zaire. Petrusic was arrested with several other men. The men are as follows: Milorad Pelemis, Branko Vlacko, Rade Petrovic and Slobodan Orasin. Goran Matic, the minister of information at that time, revealed that the men had been in Kosovo and had commited numerous crimes against the Albanian population there. He also confirmed that the Hague tribunal named the men in various indictments in connection with Srebrenica and the massacre there. All arrested were of Serbian nationality. The men were members of the 10th Sabotage Detachment of RS. It was a paramilitary formation. This division became famous when one of its former members, Drazen Erdemovic, pleaded guilty in the Hague (1996) to crimes committed in Srebrenica. Another major claim was that Yugo was responsible for the murder of Hamid, a Muslim in Zenica, who was killed under the orders of a high ranking official from the French intelligence service named Patrick For. He also was accused of the murder of the Chief of Paramilitary formations in Sarajevo Juke Prazina and once again, like in Srebrenica, the name Philip Morion appeared. After some research, I have managed to find out that Yugo was sent by the French equivalent of the Ministry of State Security, to discuss the release of the French pilots. The French newspaper “Mond” stated that at that time, Jan Chari, a high official of the French DSGE was in Bosnia. The paper states that Yugo was responsible to find the exact location of the soldiers. After the massacre in Srebrenica, the divison decided to leave and make their way to Zaire. They were each paid appx. $3,000/month to stop the overthrow of Pres. Mobutu.

  A few days after all these accusations were made public, Yugo’s wife decided to take the 15 minutes of fame and claim that her husband was not a “spy, a criminal, and a rat of war”.

  Guy Mwanatambwe recalled the horrors of being held captive by Serb mercenaries paid by his country's government. "We were imprisoned here by the mercenary Yugo, a colonel who locked us up for 10 days. There was a hangar here. That's where they guarded us," Mwanatambwe said. Col. Dominic Yugo was the apparent commander of a band of mercenaries from the former Yugoslavia hired by Zairian President Mobutu Sese Seko to protect Kisangani from a rebel attack. But according to Mwanatambwe, instead of shielding the city's residents, Yugo spread terror instead. Last weekend, rebels captured the city, dealing the government a humiliating loss. In Kisangani, the Serb mercenaries arrested Zairian men and accused them of collaborating with the rebels. One 22-year-old detainee was sexually assaulted, and most were electrocuted, beaten and interrogated, Mwanatambwe said.

  Retired Swedish Brigadier General Bo Pellnas, who was head of Military Observers in Croatia, now says that the US should not be trusted. Pellas says that he learned to distrust the US-provided evidence during peacekeeping service in the former Yugoslavia. The article can be found in the Swedish Afonbladet. TBC Who is Dominique Yugo? His name appeared first in the Srebrenica massacre, but at that time he was not known as Dominique Yugo, but rather Jugoslav Petrusic. After an investigation by the Yugoslav government at that time, it was confirmed that Mr. Yugo that he was an alledged member of the French secret service. It was also revealed that he had been under their command for the last ten years under whose he commited numerous terrorist attacks, assasinations and likvidations in the Former Yugoslavia, in Srebrenica, in Kosovo, in Algeria, Belgium, Spain and Zaire. Petrusic was arrested with several other men. The men are as follows: Milorad Pelemis, Branko Vlacko, Rade Petrovic and Slobodan Orasin. Goran Matic, the minister of information at that time, revealed that the men had been in Kosovo and had commited numerous crimes against the Albanian population there. He also confirmed that the Hague tribunal named the men in various indictments in connection with Srebrenica and the massacre there. All arrested were of Serbian nationality. The men were members of the 10th Sabotage Detachment of RS. It was a paramilitary formation. This devision became famous when one of its former members, Drazen Erdemovic, pleaded guilty in the Hague (1996) to crimes commited in Srebrenica. Another major claim was that Yugo was responsible for the murder of Hamid, a muslim in Zenica, who was killed under the orders of a high ranking official from the french intelligence service named Patrick For. He also was accused of the murder of the Chief of Paramilitary formations in Sarajevo Juke Prazina and once again, like in Srebrenica, the name Philip Morion appeared. After some research, I have managed to find out that Yugo was sent by the French equivalent of the Ministry of State Security, to discuss the release of the French pilots. The French newspaper “Mond” stated that at that time, Jan Chari, a high official of the French DSGE was in Bosnia. The paper states that Yugo was responsible to find the exact location of the soldiers. After the massacre in Srebrenica, the divison decided to leave and make their way to Zaire. They were each paid appx. $3,000/month to stop the overthrow of Pres. Mobutu. A few days after all these accusations were made public, Yugo’s wife decided to take the 15 minutes of fame and claim that her husband was not a “spy, a criminal, and a rat of war”. Guy Mwanatambwe recalled the horrors of being held captive by Serb mercenaries paid by his country's government. "We were imprisoned here by the mercenary Yugo, a colonel who locked us up for 10 days. There was a hangar here. That's where they guarded us," Mwanatambwe said. Col. Dominic Yugo was the apparent commander of a band of mercenaries from the former Yugoslavia hired by Zairian President Mobutu Sese Seko to protect Kisangani from a rebel attack. But according to Mwanatambwe, instead of shielding the city's residents, Yugo spread terror instead. Last weekend, rebels captured the city, dealing the government a humiliating loss. In Kisangani, the Serb mercenaries arrested Zairian men and accused them of collaborating with the rebels. One 22-year-old detainee was sexually assaulted, and most were electrocuted, beaten and interrogated, Mwanatambwe said. Retired Swedish Brigadier General Bo Pellnas, who was head of Military Observers in Croatia, now says that the US should not be trusted. Pellas says that he learned to distrust the US-provided evidence during peacekeeping service in the former Yugoslavia. The article can be foudn in the Swedish Afonbladet.
  
  Dan B
  Canada

• Friday August 29, 2003 at 6:59 pm
  

  Dan

  The French paper was not "Mond" but Le Monde or The World in English . . . Canadian, are you sure?
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Shangri-La

• Friday August 29, 2003 at 7:17 pm
  Alastair Campbell is resigning for "family" reasons . What is wrong with this people?, do they think we are champignons that live in the dark and are fed with horse shit? . gi'me a f... break PLEASE¡
  
  Milan Prika
  Rep of Panama

• Friday August 29, 2003 at 7:32 pm
  Your right. left off the E in monde
  
  Dan B
  Canada

• Saturday August 30, 2003 at 12:22 pm
  Milan Prika

  This is a good thing but I understand it is English tradition to say that they resign to spend time with families. It is fashion for our ones to say they will spend time on the 'business'. Good bye to Beba Popovic and Campbell. Please never come back. You are both enemies of democracy.

  I wish they had to come to face criminal charges. But people like this always live with all luxuries.

  This is some interesting information about Srebrenica that I did not know before. Thanks to Dan B. There was some other reports in newspapers in Belgrade about that they found more bodies in Zvornik. They say that some of them could come from Srebrenica but they are having analysis at the moment.
  
  Arandjel Pasic
  SCG (still getting used to the new country)

• Saturday August 30, 2003 at 9:28 pm
  And some more unidentified bodies in Tokyo. At first they thought they could be from Srebrnica but later on they denied that possibility. But still they could be from Zvarnik.

  One more news that could be of your interest: they found a mass grave in London yesterday. At first they thought they could be from Zvornik but later on they said it was more likely they were from Srebrnica. The news hasn't been confirmed yet.
  
  ivko rig
  (still getting used to the new century)
  the it

• Saturday August 30, 2003 at 10:16 pm
  A snippet from columnist Geo Will, 8/31/03.

  Clark's claim to presidential stature derives from directing NATO's 78 days of war at 15,000 feet over Serbia. It was the liberals' dream war: tenuously related to U.S. security, with an overriding aim, to which much was sacrificed, to have zero U.S. fatalities.

  Geo is widely read and also a legendary regular conservative on Sunday morning TV since I can remember. I believe it mirrors what most Americans, less Liberals , think of our participation in the Balkans. Is Judge May really going to legitimize NATO's behavior? If he does, his legacy will dishonor him, his family and his country, just as in the case of our General Clark.

  
  
  J, P
  USA,Wis

• Sunday August 31, 2003 at 12:10 pm
  
  By stating the war was "tenuously related to US security" I suppose Geo Will meant it actually endangered US security by aiding the spread of Islamic terrorism in the Balkans?
  
  Peter Taylor
  Herts/UK

• Sunday August 31, 2003 at 12:55 pm
  
  Some comments from the man who ‘Took Kabul’

  John Simpson was one of the few BBC reporters I admired but just look how low he has sunk since he (-: captured’ Kabul single-handed :-)

  Milosevic was overthrown by the Serbs' own efforts in 2000 and shipped off by them to The Hague, where he raves on behind bullet-proof glass about how the French secret service, not he, was behind the unthinkable massacre at Srebrenica.

  “Serbs’ own efforts”: Is that what passes for honest reporting by the BBC nowadays? No mention of the massive funds poured in by Nato governments to sway or bribe opposition groups or the covert and subversive operations of their spooks in interfering in the election proceedings of a sovereign state.

  “… he (Milosevic) raves on …”: Is that a true depiction of Milosevic’s demeanour at The Hague?

  Alluding to the Campbell/Blair “right thing to do” propaganda:

  It was over the bombing of Belgrade that Alastair Campbell first tried to curb the BBC's news reporting and get it "on message"; what he did to Andrew Gilligan a few weeks ago he did to me then. We first heard Tony Blair's impassioned crusading over Serbia's crimes; later the adjectives would be recycled and the goals memorably restated for Afghanistan and Iraq.

  “Serbia’s crimes”: No mention of the crimes of the KLA before, during and after Nato’s illegal assault?

  It is sad that these comments reveal that the BBC world affairs editor is so inaccurate and biased.
  
  Peter Taylor
  Herts/UK

  Sunday August 31, 2003 at 12:58 pm
  

  
  
  HTML Correction
  Hopefully

• Sunday August 31, 2003 at 2:36 pm
  This report from RTE Irish news.

  Forensic experts have unearthed the remains of almost 280 people from a mass grave in eastern Bosnia that could be the largest burial site from the country's 1992-95 war. The 40-metre grave, located in a mountainous area near Bosnia's eastern border with Serbia, is believed to contain the bodies of around 500 civilians from the area.

  But why does it take so long to find the bodies?
  
  Arandjel Pasic
  SCG (still getting used to the new country)

• Sunday August 31, 2003 at 4:04 pm
  Dec 02 1823 .- In his message to congress president James Monroe "informed" the powers of the old world (sound familiar) that American countries were not open for political influence and colonization and any effort to do so would have considered "as dangerous for our peace and safety" and the United States could not interfere in european wars or INTERNAL AFFAIRS and expected Europe to stay out of American affairs . March 24 1999 .- Who gives a shit? we have NATO , might as well use it and complete the control over all of Europe , Monroe? never heard
  
  M P
  R . of Panama

• Sunday August 31, 2003 at 11:26 pm
  Andy, while I much appreciate your efforts in providing daily reports of the trial, I would urge you to seek to report the facts and leave it at that. I think you undermine the main purpose of your effort when you let personal emotive opinions about the players creep into the commentary.

  The problem here is that the naive reader will conclude that you are profoundly biased towards some individuals and against others, and will read your reports taking this bias into consideration. They might well then conclude that your subjective opinions about the players involved, undermines your credibility as an objective observer and reporter.

  A secondary concern is that it is far better for the reader to make there own inferences about the players involved from the plain facts provided, because then they will consider the inferences made their own. When you rant about certain players, you invite the reader to think you uncharitable, and them the more generous for not thinking as badly of those you vilify as you do.

  When you can't say something good about someone, it is better to say nothing directly about them.
  
  Ian Davis
  Waterloo
  Ontario, Canada