JURIST - Discussion Archive: Milosevic Trial

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Former Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic is on trial for war crimes in the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia at The Hague. This marks the first time a head of state has been personally prosecuted before an international criminal court.

Is Slobodan Milosevic getting a fair trial?
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discussion archive
Monday December 01, 2003 at 1:02 am
Walter
re : That is what most whores do including Robertson and Blair.
You're spot on, pretty much as usual. I just never manage to figure out how come they get paid and the small, ordinary people are the ones who get f***** all the time.

David
Oztralia
Monday December 01, 2003 at 3:29 am
Vera: thank you again for your exceptional summaries. Since you are an expert in things Sorosian, I was wondering if you might be able to comment on a possible Sorosian connection in the recent Georgian 'uprising' against Shervardnadze - I hear it is a link in the same chain of meddling as support for the oppositions in Serbia and Ukraine. Thanks.

P M
USA
Monday December 01, 2003 at 5:23 am
Did anybody here watch the "trial" on November 27th?
I missed it and neither the ICTY transcripts nor the archive at Bard College has been updated to include the proceedings. Could somebody tell me what I missed?
Vera,
You're great! Your analysis of Ed Vulliamy was CLASSIC!
I don't know how you Serbs do it. It amazes me that you can keep a sense of humor amid such a tragedy.
P.M.
I read in the Christian Science Monitor last week that the U.S. Gov't spent $1.3 billion dollars in Georgia on so-called "democracy building projects." Georgia only has a population of 5 milion.
To be honest I'm surprised I thought that Eduard Shevardnadze was the U.S. man in Georgia. In 1999 the National Democratic Institute gave it's so-called "medal of freedom" to Shevardnadze, and Hilary Clinton.
At any rate, Shevardnadze supported the aggression on Yugoslavia in 1999 when he was getting his freedom medal. But by Novemnber 14th of this year he was saying "I can only say one thing: I'll never follow the fate of either Milosevic or Ceausescu."
DOS should take a look at Shevardnadze and so should the Kosovo Albanians. You can be the U.S. Government's golden boy one day and tossed out like yesterday's trash the next.

Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States
Monday December 01, 2003 at 6:29 am
Ed Vulliamy is a War-Criminal, as are all such "journalists" who jumped on the anti-Serb bandwagon and made up stories to feed NATO/Western propaganda, or who were just too lazy to question "official" pronouncements as anything other than solemn truth, so repeated each other ad-infinitum. Hell, they even end up quoting themselves, multiply times removed, a good mimick of "independent" sources, when there really aren't any.
Ed VILLAINRY, more like.
Hope he chokes on his grilled sea-bass and pale Belgian beer.
Here's a post that to my knowledge was made repeatedly to that live discussion with the scumbag Ed 'Villainry' Vulliamy, that got repeatedly deleted: ;-)
"Dear Mr. Vulliamy,
I feel it can only be a short time that, owing to your sterling services to journalism, especially as it relates to Balkan issues, that the P.M will see fit to recommend to Her Other Royal Majesty that you are Knighted.
Hence with all due respect and clairvoyance, I hope you don't mind if I hereafter refer to you as Sir Edward?
- Similar to the post:- Roland77 - 07:58am Feb 18, 2002 GMT, and hopefully expanding at least slightly on it:-
- FIRST, Sir Edward wrote IMMEDIATELY after ITN's and his visit to Trnopolje, and quoted also above by Roland77:-
" ... Trnopolje cannot be called a 'concentration camp' and is nowhere as sinister as Omarska: it is very grim, something between a civilian prison and transit camp. The Yugoslav Red Cross has a small station here, and there are meagre cooking facilities. ... ", Guardian, Aug. 7, 1992. http://www.guardian.co.uk/itn/article/0,2763,191240,00.html
___________________________
- SECOND, 8 YEARS LATER, concerning the SAME visit, Sir Edward wrote:-
" ... If it is still of any remote interest, I will say this: I now know the compound in which these terrified men were held captive to have been surrounded on one side by recently reinforced barbed wire, on two sides by a chain-link fence patrolled by menacing armed thugs and on a fourth side by a wall. But so what? This was a camp - I would say a concentration camp - and they were its inmates. ... ", Guardian, Mar. 15, 2000. http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,3974080,00.html
___________________________
- THIRD, in this SAME article, Edward, don't mind if I call you Edward, do you? I mean all that Sir Edward stuff seem awfully long-winded; OK, Edward asks:-
" ... What does it take to convince people? ... "
. . . Edward ! #!*&*###%@, !
- So to some questions, Edward:-
- Is this just like the case of the old joke about older people becoming more intolerant of loud disco music: "How come the only thing that gets better as you get older is your hearing?"
- Translated to your "CANNOT be called a 'concentration camp'" (1992), then "I would say a concentration camp" (2000), is it a case that not only your hearing 'got better', but also your memory, and to the miraculous extent that you remember a situation better 8 years after the fact than you did 2 days afterwards?
- If this is remarkably the case, Eddie, don't mind if I call you Eddie, do you? I mean after all, Edward seems terribly pompous, OK, Eddie, have you considered leaving your brain for scientific research for the benefit of mankind when you die?
___________________________
- By the way, Eddie, I wonder if you recall exactly when the mere 'wire fence' referred to in the 1992 article transformed itself apparently forever thereafter into a:- " recently reinforced barbed wire, on two sides by a chain-link fence patrolled by menacing armed thugs "
- Or perhaps it's the case, Eddie baby, don't mind if I call you Eddie baby, do you? OK, Eddie baby, perhaps it's the case that that transformation was too recent for you to recall. I apologize if that came across as some kind of trick question, it wasn't meant to be, honest.
- And, Eddi baby, I guess those menacing armed thugs you missed the first time, well, would you say that was another wholly remarkable and scientifically fascinating aspect of your brain whereby the more a dramatic a feature, and shorter the time since it's observation the more difficult it is for you to remember? But with the passage of time, and the publication of other articles on the subject all becomes clear?
- Do you think those possible quirks of your cerebral cortex described above have in any way contibuted to the unfortunate increase in those evil Serb and Milosevic apologists and conspiracy theorists?
- When you got the drunken confession from Kovacevic, did you tape it, or did it occur a sufficiently long enough time before you testified that your memory of it was unimpeachable?
- Finally, do you think journalists who may have had a hand in falsely provoking internecine war-fare should be tried as War-Criminals themselves?
- Thank you for answering my questions, and given the appararent remarkable nature of your cerebral cortex, I would like to finish by saying that for the benefit of mankind, the earlier it can be scientifically investigated, the better.
- Well, toodle-pip Eddie #!*&*###%@, I'm off to chitter-chatter over grilled sea bass and pale Belgian beer."

Dennis Revell
Etats-Unis
Monday December 01, 2003 at 7:05 am
Oh, yea, for some reason, Villainry's "handle" in the forum linked to above has changed to: "[deleted user]". No idea why.

Dennis Revell
Etats-Unis
Monday December 01, 2003 at 9:19 am
Dear Moderator, I'd like to add to the chorus of voices requesting you to continue this forum in its present format. We'd rather have the baby along with the bathwater rather than no baby at all.If you could only see to it that you archive the discussion every five days or so it will solve the access problems of those users not having broadband connections.Thanks

Seshadri Raghavan
India
Monday December 01, 2003 at 9:28 am
For a thoroughly nasty and misogynist rant, read Vulliamy's 'profile' of Mira Markovic here, http://observer.guardian.co.uk/milosevic/story/0,10639,518417,00.html
In an aside, Vulliamy claimed '...Slobodan (Milosevic) studied Mein Kampf and videotapes of Hitler's speeches' I contacted the Observer's readers editor and asked for evidence for such an outrageous and sensational claim. I was repeatedly fobbed off and given a list of sources - books by Marcus Tanner, Tim Judah etc. - none of which contained this allegation.
Can other Jurist contributors contact
Stephen Pritchard
Readers' Editor
The Observer, 119 Farringdon Road, London, EC1R 3ER
Tel: 020 7713 4656 Mon-Fri Fax: 020 7713 4279
Email: reader@observer.co.uk
and ask him to provide proof that Milosevic 'studied Mein Kampf and videotapes of Hitler's speeches' or withdraw tha allegation.
Keep up the good work.
Gerard

Gerard Killoran
UK
Monday December 01, 2003 at 10:47 am
Last week we had Miroslav Deronjic as a witness and he generated a lot of press on the alleged link between the Milosevic regime and Bosnian Serb forces. At that time the forum was down so the only material i found was the AP article with the usual 'political correctness'. Dis someone see the proceedings and can they elaborate?

Peter Varavejke
Belgium
Monday December 01, 2003 at 11:39 am
It is safe to assume that several participants in this 'Milosevic Trial Discussion' - including Dennis Revell - have had some fear that JURIST might one day simply 'kill' the thread.
Long time ago Dennis Rewell posited that 'they' were looking to do so, - with some evidence to back such feeling up e.g. in the impossibility of finding the 'Milosevic Trial Discussion' from any other of the JURIST web-pages etc. He even recommended that someone start a YAHOO group to act as substitute, which may not be a bad idea in any case.
I suggest that the proposal is now taken up for resolution.
While I certainly favour the 'old-fashioned' format over a maybe technically improved, but 'compartmentalized' and seemingly sterilized new JURIST discussion board, I would like to briefly point out that there is a need for reorientation no matter what:
The 'Kosovo' part of the 'trial' has long since ended as far as the Prosecution's case is concerned (September 11th, 2002); and while there is no doubt in my mind that mr. Milosevic has already 'won' by several horselengths there are in fact quite few (even of 'us'?) who appreaciate this, - and there is still an enormous job to be done in obtaining his release, - and in preparing the defence case as well.
This discussion board can continue contributing towards these goals - but only if we are always clear in our minds on matters relevant (in other words I just wonder if evaluation of say a war criminal like Ed Vulliamy (or other "journalists who jumped on the anti-Serb bandwagons") is really pertinent to the case of mr. Milosevic and Yugoslavia/Serbia?
May we need the determined efforts of a sensible and honest MODERATOR here?

Godfred L;ouis-Jensen
Copenhagen
D E N M A R K
Monday December 01, 2003 at 1:49 pm
Moderator,
I actually like the new version of the discussion. Perhaps while all of the "bugs" are being worked out you can maintain two paralell discussions: this one as it is now, and the new one.
The interface is sort of confusing on the new discussion and I think that is why a lot of people don't like it. It takes a few clicks to get to the page that lists all of the threads. If that was the first page that came up and it was always easy to get back to it then I think that a lot of problems people are having would be solved.
I also think that it would be useful if you could sign in on the same screen as you're posting from.
Anybody should be able to read the discussion without having to log on. But if somebody sees something that they want to respond to then they should be able to log on right there on the same screen as they are posting from. A field for the username and a field for the password should appear right there on the same screen that you post your message from.
I like the fact that you can see how many times a thread is being viewed, and the fact that users must to register in order to post.
The registration process makes it more difficult for provocateurs to sabotage a discussion, because the moderator is able to retaliate by simply banning the provocateur and deleating his or her posts.
So even at the risk of being unpopular, I would like to cast my vote in favor of the new discussion.

Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States
Monday December 01, 2003 at 3:25 pm
I also liked the new forum! With the tread system you can follow a discussion on a particular topic if youre not able to join the forum daily and intensively. I often dread browsing through the post on ICDSM for example or completely lost track of interesting discussions. For those who liked the old version, it shoulnd be that difficult to provide a page on the new forum which just presents all posts in a chronological order. I dont think splitting the forums would be a good idea. Slobodan Milosevic to run for election: http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,8039543%255E401,00.html

Peter Varavejke
Belgium
Monday December 01, 2003 at 3:26 pm
And teh HTML is much more user friendly to!

P V
Belgium
Monday December 01, 2003 at 3:36 pm
An option: We could for example ask the moderator for a 'sticky' general tread to take over the role of this forum but still have the possibility to start new treads on particular topics.

P V
B
Monday December 01, 2003 at 3:43 pm
A spelling chekker would be nice too! :)

P V
Belgium
Monday December 01, 2003 at 4:44 pm

Horror of horrors
The so-called СRacak massacreТ was so evil that it warranted the destruction of Serbia according to the messianic Blairites. But that was only the Blairite/Albright view. Factually Racak was a KLA terror stronghold from which ambushes were launched resulting in death and injury to Kosovo policemen and civilians. Thus warranting the legitimate attention of counter insurgency forces.
What goes around comes around: Commeth Samarra:
According to spokesmen for the illegitimate occupying coalition forces and their compliant media - in Jamie-Shea-like speak: Сthe bringers of peace to IraqТ - forty-six СinsurgentsТ were killed today in Samarra when coalition convoys were ambushed. But that is only the СJamie-Shea-likeТ view. Factually below are comments by doctors and a policeman at the scene:
Samarra hospital accident and emergency department anaesthetist Bassem Ibrahim said "we received the bodies of eight civilians, including a woman and a child".
Hospital director Abed Tawfiq told AFP "more than 60 people wounded by gunfire and shrapnel from US rounds are being treated at the hospital".
The town's police chief Colonel Ismail Mahmud Mohammed said about 20 of the wounded sustained their injuries while worshipping at a mosque during sunset prayers.
He said the insurgents, who had attacked US forces, had withdrawn when the Americans had returned fire, and charged that the troops had done so indiscriminately with all weapons in their arsenal.
"There was an attack and a exchange of fire between the Americans and the resistance lasting half an hour. The resistance withdrew, then bombardments started using all manner of weapons in all directions and without any discrimination," said Mohammed.
"Eight civilians were killed, including a child, and 45 wounded, some 20 of them in a mosque during sunset prayers," he said.

How many more such actual massacres must we witness in which innocent Iraqi civilians are murdered and mutilated by BlairТs coalition forces - forces that attacked Serbia ostensibly because of the СRacak massacreТ - before Racak is accorded its proper place in history: not a massacre but the legitimate destruction of a KLA terrorist stronghold by legitimate counter insurgency forces operating on their own sovereign territory. This legitimate attack on a terrorist cell was led by Major - now General - Radosavljevic a Serb General who has not and never will be indicted for this so-called massacre that never was.
Yet Serbia was attacked and Milosevic indicted principally because of the Racak myth. History will not ignore this contradiction even if the ICTY continues to do so.
PS: Is Blair mad?
Several British writers have questioned his sanity over the course of the past year. So much so that it has become a topic of genuine medical concern. Commenting on remarks that Blair is a psychopath - Сdemonstrated by his charm, insincerity and talent for dramaТ - psychiatrist Dr Alan Beveridge writing in the Journal of the Royal Society of Medicine states this:
УThe most prosaic explanation for these qualities is that he is a lawyer, merely using the tricks of the trade to argue a case. He has the lawyerТs ability to defend positions without necessarily believing in them.Ф But he concludes, on the alternative hypothesis that Blair is actually mad, without interviewing him УI donТt knowФ.

There must be a plausible explanation for BlairТs messianic conviction that dropping cluster bombs on Serbian citizens in support of KLA terror is a humanitarian act.
So whether the Serbs have been the victim of a self deluding madman or a duplicitous lawyer remains an open question. Either way itТs not much consolation! LetТs hope that by the time Blair gets to MilosevicТs current age China - remember the embassy - has enough clout to force Blair into the ICTYТs successor, the ICC, for a taste of his own medicine: Finally to be committed to the appropriate asylum.

Peter Taylor
Herts/UK
Monday December 01, 2003 at 5:10 pm
My two cents:
Forums (discussion) and censorpship are bad bed fellows.
Vive la libertщ!

Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La
Monday December 01, 2003 at 7:50 pm
American Leaders and language:H E R E

Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La
Tuesday December 02, 2003 at 1:09 am
If Ashdown and Robertson got knighthoods for "services rendered" in the destruction of YU, I don't see why Vuillamy should be left out. The other two actually had it as their job to spew garbage about the Serbs, Vuillamy's job as a journalist was to uncover the truth.
Hence, having gone "above and beyond the call of duty", Vuillamy had gone to much greater lengths to serve the Realm and should be knighted/tapped on the shoulder (with a guillotine not a sword preferably) BEFORE all the others.
He truly deserves a "knighthood", along with keelhauling, tarring, feathering, hanging, pillory and other such delightful awards one's imagination can muster.
What a slimeball! And he's not alone either, unfortunately.

David
Oztralia
Tuesday December 02, 2003 at 1:18 am
As for Milosevic running for the elections in Serbia....
If the US elections had a dead rep/senator running on an election ticket in the US, why wouldn't Serbia have a live person running?
Not a problem. Where do I sign up to vote for the guy?!!!

David
Oztralia
Tuesday December 02, 2003 at 1:39 am
Peter Taylor:
"There must be a plausible explanation for BlairТs messianic conviction that dropping cluster bombs on Serbian citizens in support of KLA terror is a humanitarian act. "
The most plausible explanation is that he's just a rotten, unmitigated LIAR, crook and powerhungry ratbag, like the ICTY gentlemen who follow his and their other masters' agendas. One does not require a Phd in Psychology or Psychiatry to figure that out.
One does however need such an academic qualification to figure out the pathology underlying such "virtues" and how on earth such people manage to sleep at night. Rehabilitation no doubt is impossible.

David
Oztralia
Tuesday December 02, 2003 at 3:53 am
A litany of lies exposed for all America to see:
http://www.house.gov/curtweldon/july16speech.html
No genocide in Kosovo, no WMDs in Iraq... Pretext after pretext after pretext. Why?

David
Oztralia
Tuesday December 02, 2003 at 10:08 am
A.- Geopolitical control . B.- War economy , have to use stored equipment and weaponry before exp. date to keep huge contracts rolling . C.- Appropiation of other countries wealth . D.- All the above .

M P
Panama
Tuesday December 02, 2003 at 10:16 am
I was leaving out "humanitarian reasons" , have to kill few thousand not necesarly military , civilians will be fine , and have the world solve the 10 problems we created , by us taking care of one .

Me Again
PTY
Tuesday December 02, 2003 at 11:04 am
Where would I find infomation on the support for the Bosnian Serbs by other nations?

n k
uk
Tuesday December 02, 2003 at 11:18 am
Did the Serbs in Kosovo ever employ the indiscriminate and overwhelming fire power described in the following article? It is by a US soldier, actually involved in the fire fight in Samarra, and thus constitutes a first hand account of that battle.
http://www.sftt.org/cgi-bin/csNews/csNews.cgi?database=Special%20Reports%20Hack.db&command=viewone&op=t&id=92&rnd=16.346899020788562

Ian Davis
Waterloo
Ontario, Canada
Tuesday December 02, 2003 at 11:20 am
Jurist forum ; as per the rest of the world when CNN , ABC , NBC , FOX , AMANPOUR , BLOOMBERG , SHEA , DEL PONTE , MAY , BLAIR , ROBERTSON , ALBRIGTH , CLARK and many others wash the brown spots from their noses .

M P
Panama
Tuesday December 02, 2003 at 12:13 pm
BBCnews:
"Bosnian Muslims committed war crimes including a ritual beheading, the Hague tribunal was told at the start of a landmark trial. Two ex-army commanders are the first senior Bosnian Muslims to appear before the tribunal."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3254890.stm

Dan B
Canada
Tuesday December 02, 2003 at 2:54 pm
Today at the Hague "Tribunal":
http://www.slobodan-milosevic.org/news/smorg120203.htm

Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States
Tuesday December 02, 2003 at 2:58 pm
Dan B, thank you for the link.
In the BBC article actor prosecutor Ekkehard Withopf says: "This trial...will show war crimes were committed by both sides of the conflict in central Bosnia".
Why does he say "both sides", which is not correct, everybody will agree with? My answer is: he is afraid of implicating his masters in the conflict.
BBC say: "Former Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic is on trial for alleged war crimes offences in Bosnia and elsewhere."
Why don't they mention "genocide", as usual? My answer: if they want to have "both sides" guilty then it is not the right thing to have a "genocide".
When I put the two together I have an indication that actor prosecutor Ekkehard Withopf and BBC have the same masters. Nothing new. I will believe they are getting more objective when they say that this shameful farce in The Hague should be ended, a legal international court established, and that there are more than three guilty sides for the war crimes in the conflict(s).

ivko rig
Europa
Tuesday December 02, 2003 at 3:41 pm
Hehehehe... The US govt wants to know what questions will be asked of Weasley Clark before it lets him testify! That's like a fact finding mission finding the facts before it has begun to find the facts.
Coupled with the notion that May only wants questions asked according to what questions he wants asked, we have a true court here!
Especially when we have a right to edit the undesirable answers in the end as well! LOL. Not a problem.
The facts are as we want them to be. And if you don't like it.... whistle Dixie.
So much for the end of the Cold War and totalitarianism. So much for the fairness of this farce at the Hague! Bring back communism, fascism, imperialism and other known forms of totalitarianism, I say. At least we'd all know what we have to deal with instead of the chocolate box our "free and democratic media" are feeding us.
"All that glitters is not gold". Similarly, all that's brown is not chocolate, no matter how pretty the wrapper and no matter how good the promotional campaign.
And that's what the ICTY is, a not so pretty wrapper and a not so pretty promotional campaign to conceal the "chocolate box" and it's nasty after taste which is yet to come for many more of us. Yuk!

David
Oztralia
Tuesday December 02, 2003 at 4:27 pm
David, Thanks for the link. The speech of Mr. Weldon clearly demonstrates how the Clinton administration was lying. But it shows even more, how low moral standards of American politicians are. Mr. WeldonТs message is not: УOh god our democratic president lied to us and our republican president lied to us! LetТs punish the liars!Ф Unfortunately his message is: УDear opposition partners stop attacking my president about being caught lying I have plenty of proof that your president lied a lot more. Only if we agree to overlook, lies that we are feeding to our people we can continue our common goal of conquering the World.Ф Shame on me! I am lying. American politicians do punish their presidents when they are publicly caught lying about their sex life!

Pera Bora
Ottawa
Canada
Tuesday December 02, 2003 at 5:27 pm
Pera
The moral standards get even worse when you look at Biden, Lantos, McCain, Dole and the rest of the pro Kosovo independence pushers in the US Congress.
It just so happens that the Albanian, drug pushing lobbyists are the main contributors to their campaign funds. And that says that they represent BIG MONEY, not the people of the US. They go to the highest bidder. Now that's democracy in action for you! Where can I buy a ton or two of "democracy" for my couple of grand?
Those who pay the piper, call the tune. Same applies to the ICTY and its funding sources such as the US govt, Soros's crowd and their petroleum rich collaborators and friends from the Middle East.

David
Oztralia
Tuesday December 02, 2003 at 6:15 pm
To set moral standarts , it's mandatory to have moral authority . To have moral authority it's mandatory to be and act moraly . Q.- Was it moral the bombardment of the Yugoslav territory ? . Is it moral the occupation and killing of civilians in Irak ? . Fill in the blanks .

Enough For today
Panama
Tuesday December 02, 2003 at 8:11 pm

Spot the real massacre:
Both forces having been subjected to ambushes which of the following two operations was illegitimate, cowardly and disproportionate: Serb Major Radosavljevic's attack on fortified KLA positions in Serbia's provincial town of Racak or US Colonel Rudesheim's lashing out at anyone and everyone in occupied Iraq's city of Samarra?
As a joint leader of the 'coalition of the willing' Blair, like Milosevic appearing before ICTY on account of Racak, should now appear before the ICC to account for these Samarra murders and mutilations. Why because impartiality is a basis of justice and Blair vociferously demands justice.
As Milsosevic once wisely remarked: "Be careful what you wish for".

Ian\'s broken link above
Repaired
Tuesday December 02, 2003 at 8:25 pm

For the third time of trying:
A US soldier's admission of the Samarra massacre: source http://groups.yahoo.com/group/decani/message/78390

Ian\'s broken link above
Repaired
Wednesday December 03, 2003 at 5:30 am
Ahh've been thinkin' of writin' to Brenda:
Dear Britannic Majesty,
Well, I don't know if that's the correct form of address for you, but that's what it says in my passport.
It also says that you request and require all those it may concern to provide all aid necessary. Obviously this hasn't been required reading of Osama bin Laden, and if it ever was, Her Other Britannic Majesty, the PM, has certainly scuppered any chance that Mr. bin Laden would have taken the slightest bit of notice of it. I mean with all the PM's brown nosing your recent guest, the US President, and supporting to the hilt all his nefarious enterprises. Thanks also to Mr. Bliar, about 1 billion Muslims worldwide are now probably of similar mind as bin Laden with regard to providing all necessary aid to British citizens. Can't say I blame them.
Speaking of the President, you must have noticed, as I did, the unwavering distortion of history, to the point of inversion, he insisted on promoting in his speech at the Banquet house, comparing lack of action against the already despoiled and wrecked country of Iraq with appeasement of Hitler.
This must have been especially galling to you, as your dear departed Mother (and Father), and yourself, actually had the courage to live through some of the horrors and dangers of the Blitz, inflicted on London during Hitler's war; eerily similar to the horrors and dangers inflicted on Iraq by Bush and Bliar's Coalition of the Killing, and Bliar AGAIN, but with Clinton, during the bombing of Yugoslavia - common factor: Bliar. As your mother quipped when Buck House got hit in the Blitz: "I'm almost glad we were bombed - now I can look the East End in the face."
Especially galling to have WW II history preached to the British, by a ruthless intellectual midget who could find neither Germany nor Iraq, nor the UK on a map without guidance from one of his generals. And this from the unelected leader of a country that having arrived late for two wars, has since appeared determined to arrive early for all the rest.
Galling thrice to you must have been the assumption that anything that that unelected President didn't know, that you and the rest of the British people must be unaware of too. I'm speaking of the origins of the UK entering WW II. You and I know, along with extremely few Americans, that Hitler invaded Poland partly on the lying pretext that that country harboured hostile intentions towards Germans and Germany. Ring a bell?
Of course that pretext was just as ridiculous for such a lightly armed country compared to NAZI Germany, as Bush and Bliar's identical pretext was in the case of Iraq.
I'm probably making a large assumption here that you actually bothered to watch Bush's speech on the Tele. In retrospect, I shouldn't be too surprised if you gave it a miss; having had enough of the windbag liar over dinner and tea and biscuits at Buck House.
It was, of course, the Americans who helped many a NAZI to escape justice by spiriting them away to South America when their continuing presence in Europe after WW II became "embarassing" (eg: Klaus Barbie, Otto Skorzeny). No doubt some of those were of great service, in an advisory capacity at least, to some of the CIA backed death-squads that Latin America became notorious for. It was also a sympathetic American guard who slipped the poison pill to Dutch Uncle Goering in Nuremberg, so he escaped the hangman. Sympathetic to WHAT?!?
Kind of made me wonder lately if the only things the US authorities, (and Mr. Bliar), had against the NAZIs were A) they wanted to kill all the Jews, B) the 'Z' in NAZI, and C) they weren't Americans. They all seem to have adopted and improved upon the old NAZI propaganda and BlitzKrieg techniques with extreme gusto.
And so specifically to Mr. Bliar. Several years ago you saw fit to dissolve the Australian Government; a surprising move to me at the time, to say the least. I'm afraid I was not amused. However bad that Government may have seemed to you, I would like to point out that its leadership was not guilty of A) Treason and B) War-Crimes. There are powerful legal and moral arguments that Bliar's Government is. If I did something that I knew would lead to the the unnecessary deaths of members of Your Armed Forces, then I assume I would be deemed guilty of treason. This is exactly what Bliar did. War-Crimes? The main conclusion of the Nuremberg Tribunal was that the waging of unprovoked war itself is the ultimate war crime. Not unreasonable, as all other war crimes can reasonably be expected to follow.
Could you not therefore see your way to dissolving the current British Government of liars, traitors, war criminals, crooks and shysters? If ever a Government deserved to be dissolved, it's this one.
Some very preliminary indications of how you may do this in cooperation with the the British Armed Forces, and others; with a view to early elections, may be found here:
http://dennisrevell.home.att.net/Politico/OpenLetterToBritArmedServices_July12_03.htm
Your Majesty, I would like to think I could bump into an Iraqi, or a Serb, or any ex-Yugoslav who still wishes they were, and be able to "look them in the face" as your mother once said about East Enders. I would not like to have to be bombed to be able to do so.
Many thanks for your attention.
Sincerely,
Dennis Revell ... etc ...
P.S: The conspiracy theory on the web about Prince Phillip having his bosom pals in MI6 whack Diana et alia, presumably because, reading between the lines, the mother of the future King of England marrying a "dago Muslim", as Phillip might say, could not be countenanced: well, this conspiracy theory really does "look like it was made by an Indian". It does seem strange, though, that Diana died in circumstances eerily similar to the scheme that that MI6 fruitcake Nick Fishwick hatched to terminate Milosevic. Small world? Is Fishwick a xenophobe? Do you reckon he might have gone 'private'?
Any thoughts? Anyone got her E-Mail address?

Dennis Revell
Etats-Unis
Wednesday December 03, 2003 at 5:37 am
dammit

D R
E-m-U
Wednesday December 03, 2003 at 11:50 am
Ladies and Gentleman of this Forum,
It seems that some of you are participating on the УnewФ version of this Forum.
Would somebody be so kind to instruct me hoe to get on it. I have been clicking on the posted sign: now you can jump to the new discussion group, but to no avail.
Please post step by step instruction to follow.

D. Jovanovic, physicist
USA
Wednesday December 03, 2003 at 12:02 pm
D. Jovanovic,
Goto this link:
http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/phpbb2/viewforum.php?f=2
The link that the moderator gives dumps you onto a confusing page where it is hard to find the discussion in the first place.

Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States
Wednesday December 03, 2003 at 12:56 pm

Three years on Е
KLA faces trials for war crimes on Serbs Inquiry turns on Albanians Tom Walker, Diplomatic Correspondent, Sunday Times 3 September 2000.
INTERNATIONAL war crimes investigators are for the first time focusing on atrocities against Serbian civilians that were committed by the Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA).
Sources close to prosecutors in The Hague confirmed last week that its forensic experts were checking five sites where war crimes were allegedly carried out by members of the KLA. Their findings could lead to a request to Nato's Kfor troops to arrest several senior figures in the new Kosovo Albanian elite, including possibly Hashim Thaci, the KLA's former political leader, or Ramush Haridinaj, one of his main political rivals.
United Nations sources have already revealed that Agim Ceku, the guerrillas' former commander, may be the subject of a secret "sealed" indictment for his activities while fighting for the Croatian army against the Serbs.

We remember the many and oft repeated promises of Madam del Prosecutor to indict the leaders of the manifest KLA terror campaign in Kosovo - and weТre still waiting! Almost five years on and del Ponte still prevaricates with the principal excuse that she has no evidence.
No evidence: Apart from the testimony of her own prosecution witness K6 to murders by the KLA what will historians make of her neglect of these facts: Especially her neglect of the genuine massacres of Serbs at places such as Orahovac, Glodjane and Klecka while she makes such a fuss about the legitimate destruction of a KLA terror cell at Racak.
Paradoxically the Racak assault is recognised implicitly as legitimate by the ICTY because they have stated that Serb General Radosavljevic, the man conducting the Racak operation, will never will be indicted for this much examined attack on a well fortified KLA position. Contradictions do not come any more blatant than this: Serbia was subjected to a 78 day bombing campaign and Milosevic indicted principally on the pretext of the myth of the СRacak massacreТ.
You can tell a lot about a peoplesТ characters by the company they choose to keep. Do not miss the pictures of Сlove-insТ shown in the URL links above between СThe SnakeТ and Blair, and Albright, and the group including General Jackson, General Clark, and Bernard Kouchner. If you do view these photoТs be warned that feelings of nausea may linger.
Thanks to our spineless media, especially the BBC, the British public by and large know nothing of these facts. A true court of justice would remedy this omission. Will the ICTY become a true court of Justice: is the СTrial of MilosevicТ fair? Not as long as Madam Prosecutor continues deliberately to neglect this evidence.
Yet more damning evidence ignored by del Ponte: KFOR, UNMIK and the ICTY have photographs of members of the KPC, as former members of the KLA, sporting the severed heads of Serbs soldiers. Yet these monsters remain Kosovo policemen and their commanders are KosovoТs political leaders. This is a measure of the truth of BlairТs СcivilisingТ behaviour and avowal to Сwipe out terror wherever it occursТ. But what else can one expect from a man who is convinced that dropping cluster bombs on civilians is an act of humanity! Is Blair mad or what?

Peter Taylor
Herts/UK
Wednesday December 03, 2003 at 3:35 pm
David, I agree with your moral assessment of USA. We often forget that three areas of the world, where USA and CIA have full involvement, are the main producers or cross roads for international drug trade. I am thinking of Afghanistan, Columbia and Kosovo. If these were decent democratically ruled areas it would be very difficult to explain why drugs are pouring out of them or being distributed through them. So my prediction is that in particular for these three areas including Albania that there is no hope for democracy. My point is that drug cartels are run by Columbians, Afghans or Albanians; they are run by American mafia which is deeply involved with the USA government and CIA. Kosovo has bought its УfreedomФ (anarchy i.e. chaos) on the spoils of drug trade and interest of American Congress and Senate to support its future development

Pera Bira
Ottawa
Canada
Wednesday December 03, 2003 at 3:47 pm
Indeed yesб have you ever seen the eyes from a fish that has been pulled out from 100 ftms depth ? will those eyes lie to you , definitely Tony has gone "loco" long time ago , and now he's in cojuts with "quick draw Mc Graw" !what a wanderful world б where are the real statesmen gone ?

M P
Panama
Wednesday December 03, 2003 at 5:20 pm
Why has the trial video archive not been updated the last two days? It is the only way I have of seeing the trial. Anyone know what's going on there?

Matthew Phillips
USA
Wednesday December 03, 2003 at 5:42 pm
Pera Bira
And don't forget the Vietnam story as Vietnam was a link from the Golden Triangle to the China Sea, a major shipping/distribution route for drugs. The Nth Viet took control and the US didn't like it.
Seems the US likes to control all the "natural resources" which make BIG money across the globe, as well as their distribution. Drugs, weapons, oil, etc, etc. All in the name of democracy and "free trade"! So how come they all cost so much, as in the arms and the legs of so many non-US and US citizens?
I guess their explanation is that if they didn't do it someone else would. Which is the same as saying if the cops don't behave like crooks then the crooks will. Might as well have crooked cops then and be done with it. Welcome to the New World Order!
But if you have crooked cops, you HAVE TO HAVE a crooked judiciary too or the cops are going to get busted by the courts.
Enter beacons of "justice and law" such as the ICTY and it's crooked operatives! Or the US politicised Supreme Court. Anyone have an election they want rigged? Or maybe an independent foreign leader removed? Or a country and a people destroyed?

David
Oztralia
Wednesday December 03, 2003 at 5:48 pm
Nothing new, more lying witnesses and closed sessions, and of course an impatient judge May (NATO) and, as always, a whitewashing judge Kwon (OCCUPIED). How much longer . . .

Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La
Wednesday December 03, 2003 at 6:11 pm
Andy Wilcoxson
Thanks for your summaries on www.slobodan-milosevic.org I find them to be pretty accurate and faithful summaries of proceedings.
More generally, can someone explain to me why the Chamber goes in to closed sessions to discuss the lack of truthfulness in a witness statement, apart from wanting to avoid embarrassment and lack of credibility!
Enough is enough! The farce is becoming even MORE blatant each time they sit.
May's bias is unbelievable! His protection of the Other Side's case is mind boggling!
The quality of the bulk of the witnesses is beyond any credibility. A sickening embarrassment for the Other Side's case. Liars, thieves, criminals, terrorists, rotten politicians, illiterate morons... You name it, they've got them on the stand. No wonder May and Nice want them in closed sessions. Can't have the public realising they are less than dependable story tellers can we?
It remains to be seen how they all compare to Milosevic's witnesses. No doubt, the evidence in closed sessions will be used to convict Milosevic as NOTHING in the open sessions says he has ANY case to answer. In fact, there is clear evidence that there are plenty of others such as Schroder, Kohl, Clinton, Albright et al who have a much greater case to answer.
On the basis of the open session evidence, May is not going to have any choice but to dismiss the case when the Other Side finishes presenting it; ssuming May has HALF a brain and half a scruple! On the evidence to date, he doesn't look too convincing.

David
Oztralia
Wednesday December 03, 2003 at 6:17 pm
Dear mr. Jovanovic,
I wonder if Andy Wilcoxson's kind reply to your request for "step by step instructions" suffices for you to enter the new, compartmentalized JURIST "Chastity Keepsake" Discussion Forum?
Frankly I didn't have the guts to even admit that I was having the very same difficulties as yourself, - but now I've rather miraculously found the following bit of an exchange:
A: Despite this being a small hassle, I think in the long run it pays off, because we will not have people who will continue to harass the board. Hopefully everyone will sign up here so we can continue the discussion...
B: I agree..., - hopefully this new format will discourage those who wish to sabotage this board.
Thank you, Moderator!
Thank you, Moderator? One week later A is still pondering his next remark, - and no one have come to his rescue. I wonder who is REALLY 'harassing' this "Milosevic Trial Discussion"?
And now on to something entirely different: I never felt competent in dealing with any aspects of the "Bosnia/Herzegovina" part of the 'trial' , - but would indeed be grateful for comments on the perspectives set by the sentence of Captain Momir Nicolic.
I understand, that mr. Nicolic was given 27 years in prison for his role in the 1995 massacre at Srebrenica, where - as we have been repeatedly and meticulously told - "more than 7,000 Muslim men and boys were killed in the worst mass slaughter in Europe since the Second World War."
Mr. Nikolic originally pleaded not guilty, but changed his plea and agreed to testify against three other defendants in exchange for the Prosecution agreeing to drop the more "serious" charges against him, which included genocide.
I understand that as part of this agreement the defendant gave important testimony against his commanders - and others accused of war crimes. The Prosecutors dropped charges of genocide in exchange for a guilty plea on persecution, - still the Presiding Judge Liu Daqn ruled that Mr. Nikolic played "a proactive role" in the genocide and increased the term, arguing that:
"By his own account, he appears to have taken a very active -- even pro-active -- role in ensuring the operations went forward and were, in his words, 'successful'"
Not being a lawyer I wonder:
Was Captain Nicolic getting a fair trial? An what does this spell for other defendents...
I suggest that such questions deserve -in fact demand - 'threads' of their own in the new 'compartmentalized', and thus less frivolous JURIST discussion board, - if we ever manage to operate, or even to enter its compartments...
What do you think, mr. Jovanovic?

Godfred Louis-Jensen
Copenhagen
D E N M A R K
Wednesday December 03, 2003 at 8:07 pm
Only roten souls and miserable minds are capable of playing with human natural freedom desire . what else can be expected from that misscarriage of justice aka ICTY , poor stupid trusting a gang of inmoral human alike creatures that belong to the sewer of human evolution . One thing is for sure , the ICTY will be a must subject in all law schools in the 21st century on how low justice can fall , lower than a snakes' belly

M P
PANAMA
Wednesday December 03, 2003 at 10:21 pm
Thank you Mr. Willcoxson,
I registered, but have yet to learn my ways how to post and read and participate in the discussion

D. Jovanovic, physicist
USA
Wednesday December 03, 2003 at 10:38 pm
David, I never realized that Vietnam was as well linked to the drag trade.

Pera Bora
Ottawa
Canada
Wednesday December 03, 2003 at 11:46 pm
When it was impossible to get into the forum for days, I realised again how closed off from the rest of the world the trials of Milosevic and all the other defendants are. I guess I'll repeat it. It ought to be a headline article:

How can this possibly be a fair trial? Nobody observes or writes about it consistently or even occasionally except Andy W. on his web page and this forum. There are three judges who answer to themselves if not to the sponsor of Milosevic's trial and an immense amount of "evidence" is presented in closed session. When they come out with their verdict who will be able to challenge it? It's based on secret "evidence" because there's been little real evidence in the open sessions. We've all read the descriptions of trial sessions that come out in the daily press.

Lately the press is ringing with the exciting news that Wesley Clark will testify. The conditions of his testimony -- no surprise questions, "helpers" (guards???) in the court, etc., no release of his answers until approved by the U.S. Government -- have not excited any analysis or criticism by the so-called press.

Nikole J
Canada
Thursday December 04, 2003 at 12:10 am
Godfred, Captain Nikolic, at the face value, is an ideal witness for the ICTY prosecution. He is an insider. A high ranking officer of an army that allegedly committed genocide. He was personally involved in the allegedly genocidal military operation in Srebrenica. He was willing witness. He promised goodies, but he failed to deliver them. He cried today, after being cruelly punished for not being capable to provide high quality lies. The question is why he lied instead of delivering devastating truth about so called massacre of Srebrenica? Dis-HONORABLE prosecutors and judges of the ICTY will never dare to ask this question? They do not want to know the truth. They are only interested in high quality lies.

The answer to the above-asked question is simple and strait forward. The Srebrenica massacre and genocide never happened. If it happened, captain Nikolic would not have to lie, instead he will deliver the truth. He lied that he has personally ordered a massacre of 1000 Muslims in Kravica. Just stop and think about it. We know that 1000 Muslims were allegedly massacred at Kravica. We know that the Serbian army did this. But high-ranking officers of the Serbian army can not name the culprits among them selves. Suddenly, one of them desperate to please the ICTY prosecution volunteers that he order and organized the massacre. Then he lied that he saw other two Serbian officers, accused of involvement in the massacre, in Kravica at the day of massacre. An interesting question is where he was on the day of the massacre and what he was really doing. Nobody among prosecutors or judges will ever dare to ask or try to find out. Why? Because they are afraid of a truthful answer.

Today Mr. Nikolic is a broken man. He has betrayed him self and he has thrown a stone on his people out of stupidity and despair. The question for so called humanitarian organizations of the world is what kind of "negotiating devices and procedures" prosecution used to brake this once honorable man. The tragedy is that nobody, except us at the forum, will dare and continue to ask this question.

An Irony is that on one sunny day, in the future, Mr. Nikolic may be recognized as a man who served a fatal blow to the gang at the ICTY and made them laugh of the World. Boy, they deserve much worse. It is pity that Mr. Nikolic has not had strength to laugh at prosecutors and judges today. He could have been a hero.

Pera Bora
Ottawa
Canada
Thursday December 04, 2003 at 6:59 am
It is to the high priests of international Law, whether in Universities, Media, or other institutions to denounce this mascarade of Justice at the United Nations created and "run" International Criminal Tribunal for Yugoslavia. The international media is "ignoring" it, well disciplined and following orders from the powers at large. This is the fascist world in which we live in.

Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La
Thursday December 04, 2003 at 7:31 am
I think its great that Mr. Nikolic was sentenced so heavy. It shall make others think twice before making deals with prosecution in order to please ICTY. There is no guarantees with ICTY, which might mean that deals are off and there shall not be any more so called "insiders". So if that is a case - like with Babic - who is going to testify as a Serb?. As the Serbs say; "ko sa djavolom tikve sadi o glavu mu se lupaju"(if you plant pumpkins with devil, they will break into your head).

Dakic Ana
Serbia
Thursday December 04, 2003 at 8:08 am
Nikole J,
Indeed, the conditions of his testimony may not have excited any analysis by the so-called press - and Carla Del Ponte's spokeswoman isn't exactly "press", I guess?
Well, I never met Florence Hartman - and wonder if she isn't worth it?
She really sounds so sweet when suggesting that "it's always better when you have everything in public and out in the open, but (with regard to retired Gen. Wesley Clark's testimony in The Hague on December 15 and 16) nothing is the best we - the United Nations - could get."
Now I hear Gogol grumble: "This is the fascist world in which we live...," - but I wonder (as usual):
Failing "the high priests of international law", then who (of you?) will act as 'anchorwomen/men' on this particular celebration? I guess Andy Wilcoxson of course, - and Peter? Or all of us? It's not too early to start preparing...
Ref. Google News: Tom Hundley, CHICAGO TRIBUNE. December 4, 2003.
Dakic Ana! The very harshness of the sentence - which was somehow above the 15-20 years "agreed" - earned Captain Nikolic the right to appeal...
I remain convinced, that some "high priest" should look quite deeply into this matter, too - I think it's worth it!

Godfred Louis-Jensen
Copenhagen
D E N M A R K
Thursday December 04, 2003 at 9:03 am
Pera Bora
The French Connection... From the Golden Triangle to Marseilles via Laos and Vietnam (turn left at Panama for Albequerque)! 60% of the world's heroin supply. Route roughly followed the Ho Chi Minh Trail which went along the Laos/Vietnam border which the Viet communists later used to smuggle arms and equipment south to Saigon.
The Viet war was to consolidate and control the drug trade as the distribution route was taken over by the communists and the CIA who were involved in the drug trade in the region to finance their activities in IndoChina and elsewhere got short shrift.
That's also why Laos is the most bombed country in the history of mankind, along with Vietnam! A very little known fact.
It's called protecting the US national interest. Just like the Albanian Connection route from Middle East and Central Asia via Turkey Kosovo and Albania en route to Western Europe. BIG BIG BUCKS and no CIA accountability to Congress for covert operations. Factor in the oil pipeline as well and the BIG BIG bucks become MEGA MEGA bucks!
Milosevic was in the way in Serbia, he refused to give up control of Kosovo and YU. That's why he's been relocated to the Hague and why Bondsteel is settled in for the long term. The mujahideen are also ensconced there as Josef Bodanssky from the Congressional Task force on Terrorism will confirm for you.
And that's no surprise, the US admin want their reliable bedmates from Central Asia to continue their cooperative venture in the Balkans, much like in Afghanistan where opium production has skyrocketed under US auspices.
That is what Clinton referred to as America's national interest in the Balkans. That is also what he refers to when he speaks of US national interests in Columbia and the war on drugs.
Silly me! And I always thought they cared about the humanitarian rights of the Muslims.
The ICTY was just the cover story to finish off the glossy pretexts for the killing of YU and the theft of Kosovo and the protection of US "national" interests. Paid of course by money stolen from the American taxpaying people and laundered drug proceeds via NGOs such as Soros' Endowment for Democracy and similar.
So much for the war on drugs, and so much for the war on terrorism.

David
Oztralia
Thursday December 04, 2003 at 9:12 am
D. Jovanovic,
Goto this link:
http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/phpbb2/viewforum.php?f=2
Click "log in" at the top of the page and then enter your username and password.
Click on one of the topics to read the thread or click on the "new topic" button at the bottom of the page to start your own thread.
If you want to post a response on one of the threads then click the "post reply" button at the bottom of the page and you can write a reply to the post that you're viewing.
If you ever get lost then go back to this link
http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/phpbb2/viewforum.php?f=2
Moderator,
I also second Peter Varavejke's suggestion that the moderator set-up a "sticky" general discussion thread.

Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States
Thursday December 04, 2003 at 9:14 am
Today's "trial" summary:
Administrative matters were briefly discussed, and then the "trial" went back into closed session for the rest of the day inspite of strong objections raised by Slobodan Milosevic.

Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States
Thursday December 04, 2003 at 1:10 pm
Gogol,you're absolutely right. We live the (neo) fascist times. In the prevous fascist times media (mainly TV) wasn't there with such an impact

milan c.
nl
Thursday December 04, 2003 at 3:19 pm
The ICTY has rejected a request for the trial of three former Serb leaders to be joined with that of four top army and police generals indicted in October for war crimes in Kosovo, B92 reports (December 04, 2003, at 19:23).
The four generals - current Serbian Public Security chief Sreten Lukic, his predecessor Vlastimir Djordjevic, former armed forces chief of staff Nebojsa Pavkovic and former general Vladimir Lazarevic - were indicted on charges almost identical to those against three former Serb leaders currently awaiting trial.
Prosecutors had argued that their indictment should be merged with that against former Serbian president Milan Milutinovic, former Yugoslav deputy prime minister Nikola Sainovic and former defence minister Dragoljub Ojdanic.
The Trial Chamber ruled that the request was premature, since none of the four generals have yet been detained. TodayТs ruling left open the possibility of a repeat request once all four accused are in tribunal custody.

Godfred Louis-Jensen
Copenhagen
D E N M A R K
Thursday December 04, 2003 at 3:21 pm
Secret Trials - Public Accusations:
http://www.slobodan-milosevic.org/news/smorg120403.htm

Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States
Thursday December 04, 2003 at 7:34 pm
S E R B I A H A S T O B E F R E E!
President Milosevic's phone address to the Head Committee of the Socialist Party of Serbia (SPS) on the elections:
Belgrade, 3 December 2003
Dear comrades,
I wish to greet you and to tell you that we all together have a duty to struggle for victory and to win. It is the interest of the whole people, of every family and each individual. And looking from the prospective of individuals, of families and of the people - everyone wishes to live in prosperous and developed, safe and happy country. In order to be all that, Serbia has to be free. That is why freedom is a goal that has to be above all other goals. That goal is reachable although it is hard to reach it. It is reachable since truth is the most powerful weapon. It is hard since great efforts, lot of work and firm unity are needed for that truth to access brain and heart of every citizen.
In these elections Serbian people has historical duty to choose the truth. Three years ago I warned citizens of Serbia what was going to happen if the exponents of foreign powers, i.e. of their governments, come to power. Everything happened exactly as I said - nobody can deny it today.
The Socialist Party of Serbia has duty and ability to gather and mobilize forces that will reverse the processes which are the sad reality of Serbia - in the interest of peasants, in the interest of workers, intellectuals, in the interest of Kosovo martyrs, in the interest of everyone who lives of his own work - as well as in the interest of Serbian people, national dignity and dignity of every citizen.
I have proposed Milutin Mrkonjic for Prime Minister because he is a builder who proved himself in the hardest time. Serbia needs a million of new employments, it needs apartments, hospitals, schools, roads, railways, bridges, it needs accelerated improvement of living standards, both social and individual, for all - from babies in nurseries until pensioners.
Serbia is in Europe; it has no reason to stand submissively in anybodyТs waiting room. There is no happy beggar or wealthy colony. Fast integration into contemporary World can be achieved only through our own successful development - not by mercy or decree of the outside factors.
That is why Serbia should vote for truth, should vote for Serbia.
In that name I wish to send you at least one more time a message that we all together have a duty to struggle for victory.
Until victory!

Godfred Louis-Jensen
Copenhagen
D E N M A R K
Thursday December 04, 2003 at 8:24 pm
www.seeeurope.net ....
"States won't cooperate," Del Ponte said recently. "They don't want the real truth to come out. It's politically disturbing."
"United States must set a better example. U.S. officials involved in wartime Bosnia should be allowed to testify with maximum transparency about what they knew. The U.S. government needs to release crucial imagery and signals -- intelligence information it collected during the capture of Srebrenica and the several days afterward, during which Serb forces committed the massacre. Intelligence experts such as Cees Wiebes of the Netherlands, who spent years investigating the fall of Srebrenica for a Dutch government-sponsored report, believe that the United States has such information. If it is not forthcoming, Congress should order an investigation of what our country knew about the massacre and when".
And blow the whole charade to pieces?! Dream on!

David
Oztralia
Thursday December 04, 2003 at 9:31 pm
OH? - THEY DON'T? NO! - THEY DON'T!
(1) "United States must...order an investigation of what our country knew about the massacre and when."
Right, - but who are you quoting, David?
(2) "They don't want the real truth to come out," sounds like Del Ponte.
Then what is "politically disturbing"?
A: The "real" truth?
B: Or: That they don't want it out?
IOW: It's DISTURBING, that States do not want it...
Or: "States do not want it, BECAUSE it is disturbing...
Well, - for whom, really?
Am I grateful for not being a lawyer...

Godfred Louis-Jensen
Copenhagen
D E N M A R K
Thursday December 04, 2003 at 10:33 pm
zzzzz

zzzzzz zzzzzz
zzzzzzz
Friday December 05, 2003 at 6:21 am
Seems that after 2 years , the small little red house in The Hague occupants are realizing that finding the squareness of the circle is kinda complicated . Now plan B has to be executed find the roundness of the square . This is what y call perservereance , Del Ponte for the Nobelбббб

M P
Panama
Friday December 05, 2003 at 6:51 am
What the Western media says about the coming Serbian election December 28, click H E R E

Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La
Friday December 05, 2003 at 9:17 am
There is only one person to blame for success of Radicals. That was the stupid decision of Zivkovic to hold Presidential elections even when everyone knew they would fail.
Why? It was a cynical attempt by Zivkovic, Jovanovic and company to show Serbia that even if DS could not keep hold of the Presidency neither could anyone else.
Too late but now Jovanovic has been marginalised and Zivkovic must suffer the indignity of having his deputy, Boris Tadic, head the democratic party ticket. Why? Because Tadic was never involved in any scandals and he is generally respected. DS must now salvage what they can. But make no mistake it was not the West who caused the Radicals to grow but stupid policies of current government.

B Petric
UK
Friday December 05, 2003 at 11:53 am
There are occurencies nowadays in Iraq which closely resemble the events taking place in Kosovo prior to the NATO attack on Yugoslavia.
Recent event in Samarra can be described both as a massacre and / or undue use of too great a military response.
In view of such events, and there are many more than just one mentioned, can Milosevic defense exploit these as examples of military decisions which are justified by the situation?

D. Jovanovic, physicist
USA
Friday December 05, 2003 at 2:23 pm
Just in case it goes unnoticed, last week events in Tbilisi and the overthrow of Eduard Shevardnadze is a carbon copy of what happened in Belgrade in 2000.
Next, Moldova.
"It's an unnatural thing to have foreign forces in their country. It can't really be a stabilizing influence,"
Ah! zzee Ruskies!

Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La
Friday December 05, 2003 at 2:25 pm
Forgot the LINK

Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La
Friday December 05, 2003 at 3:26 pm
Then the Chinese will say . Considering that the UN has lost the purpose it was created for , and in compliance with the new world order . We will exercise our right to bring the rebel province of Taiwan back to the Peoples' republic of China regardless of the means to pursue this right. Beijing July 4 .

M P
Panama
Friday December 05, 2003 at 5:18 pm
I doubt the Chinese would use such a lame excuse for attacking Taiwan, now that the docrine of pre-emptive defence, has been given legitimacy by the US.
What china will say is that they had reason to believe that Taiwan constituted a grave threat to mankind, and they have decided to preserve the peace by pre-empting that threat. They will point to Taiwans human rights record, or its weapons of mass destruction, or the need for regime change there, or the importance of exporting the chinese political system to Taiwan. But whatever China does it will go to great pain to ensure that it is clearly understand that China acts not in its own interest, but in the interests of liberating the long suffering Taiwanese people.

Ian Davis
Wateroo
Ontario, Canada