 MILOSEVIC TRIAL DISCUSSION ARCHIVE |
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Former Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic is on trial for war crimes in the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia at The Hague. This marks the first time a head of state has been personally prosecuted before an international criminal court.
Is Slobodan Milosevic getting a fair trial?
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- discussion archive
- Wednesday December 10, 2003 at 5:45 am
Tuesday December 09, 2003 at 11:01 am
The tribunal video websites have not been updated now since Wednesday last week (English and Serbian version). Any info on that?
Dan B
Canada
There are a number of technical issues, most notably problems with the telco-telco migration of our Hague-Amsterdam DSL's (the archive servers are located in Amsterdam, the Belgrade archive is fed from Amsterdam).
By day's end the Serbian archives should be up-to-date again, the English archive will hopefully be up-to-date again on Friday, we are working on a make-shift solution.
Frank Tiggelaar
Tribunal Live
Frank Tiggelaar
Amsterdam
Holland - Wednesday December 10, 2003 at 6:57 am
Yes, David you've got it(Tuesday December 09, 2003 at 10:07 pm).
ivko rig
- Wednesday December 10, 2003 at 8:28 am
AN EMERGENCY CALL FOR PROTEST!On Monday, December 12, 2003 retired U.S. General Wesley Clark will appear before the tribunal in The Hague (ICTY) as a prosecution witness in the 'trial' of Slobodan Milosevic!
For his rôle inside NATO, which under his command beginning on March 24, 1999, waged a 78-day bombing campaign, the current U.S. presidential candidate was subsequently tried and convicted in Belgrade of war crimes.
Now he presents himself as a "witness for the prosecution," - which appears quite striking when one considers how and to what extent the U.S. dominates the ICTY.
They finally carried it out!
More clearly than ever before now the direct influence of the U.S. regime comes to the surface:
It is the U.S. that literally dictated to the Hague tribunal the terms under which Wesley Clark will testify. Following the direct conditions from Washington no public and no media will be allowed inside. The only people who will observe the proceedings will be two representatives of the U.S. government. And not only this:
The U.S. government has the authority to decide which parts of Wesley Clark's testimony will remain secret. The other parts will be presented to the U.S. government, which will then have a time period of 48 hours to censor also this part.
There are thus many reasons to protest before The Hague Tribunal on Monday, 15 December:
Protest against the dictatorship of imperialism! Protest against the attack on international law! Protest against the attempt to punish the Yugoslav people for resistance against neo-colonialism! Protest against the court appearance of war criminal Wesley Clark!
As these proceedings are scheduled to begin on Monday, December 15 at 9.00 a.m., a protest meeting will be held in front of the tribunal building at 8.00 a.m.
Following the protest meeting the International Committee for the Defense of Slobodan Milosevic (ICDSM) will hold a PRESS CONFERENCE at 9 a.m. in the Hotel Bel Air (next to the tribunal building).
Canadian lawyer Tiphaine Dickson, a legal assistant to Slobodan Milosevic, will give a press statement and answer the media's questions.
(emergency call relayed by)
Godfred Louis-Jensen
Copenhagen
D E N M A R K - Wednesday December 10, 2003 at 8:30 am
Warmonger Blair on launching his illegal attack upon Serbia:“Let me set out too some of the background to the story about the region and the man who has brought it so much death and barbarism. Milosevic came to power in 1987 by exploiting Serb nationalism … He gave to the world the hideous term "ethnic cleansing" as over 2m people were driven from their homes, mainly by the Serbs”.
The man who has truly brought so much death and barbarism in recent years is Blair. He could have used his influence on successive US presidents to take the path of peace but has chosen to encourage them in wars: wars that might otherwise have been avoided. Today it was revealed that the coalition forces of which he is a principal leader murdered 15 children last week by indiscriminate bombing. Tens of thousands have been the victims of his illegal aggression not least of which have been the Serbs.
Blair could have chosen to fight terrorism in Kosovo: instead he supported it in spite of his much vaunted declaration to “wipe out terrorism wherever it occurred”. He despises “Serb nationalism” but encourages Albanian nationalism.
“In January, following the massacre of 45 civilians at Racak, we demanded that Milosevic cease the repression and take a constructive part in peace talks. He pretended to comply but in reality, as we know, he did not do so.”
More spin, deception and distortion: Racak was Blair and his cronies’ pretext for war. There was no massacre at Racak as the refusal of the ICTY to indict the commander of Serb forces there, Major Radosavljevic, demonstrates. Moreover the Anglo/US excuse for its many massacres - even those of 15 children - is that it is fighting terrorism. But the Serbs were fighting terrorism in Kosovo: terrorism which included Mujahedin and which was supported not only by Blair but also bin Laden and al-Qaeda! That is why the ICTY must place the blame for Kosovo firmly on Milosevic and the Serbs. The pretence that Blair and others do not support Islamic terror must be preserved. Just like medieval church leaders and their courts could not allow Galileo to reveal the truth that ‘the earth revolved about the sun’ contrary to there teachings.
Deaths caused by the Serbs in Kosovo may not be excused by claiming: ‘It was a fight against Islamist terror’ unlike Blair a leader of the child murderers. Likewise the leaders of the KLA and its new variant forms will never be called to account for their Blair supported continuing acts of terror against the Serbs. This is what passes for justice at the ICTY where del Ponte would have us believe she is dispensing justice.
”Justice is all that those poor people, driven from their homes in their thousands in Kosovo, are asking for, the chance to live free from fear. We have in our power the means to help them secure justice and we have a duty to see that justice is now done.”
In spite of Blair’s fine words almost five years on a third of a million of Kosovo’s minority populations are still “driven from their homes” in exile or live in fear in Kosovo.
Like Blair and his cronies’ show trial of Milosevic Blair’s hollow words are a cruel deception: empty of principle, truth and justice.
Blair’s silence on the many atrocities committed by the KLA and Anglo/US forces and his failure to demand action against those immediately responsible is a measure of his guilt.
Peter Taylor
Herts/UK - Wednesday December 10, 2003 at 11:22 am
Six children more , murdered by U.S. air force in Afghanistan , I wonder what kind of markings the pilots draw on their fuselages , pacifiers? . God ,do something to stop this insanity !
M P
Panama - Wednesday December 10, 2003 at 11:55 am
CORRECTION TO 'AN EMERGENCY CALL FOR PROTEST':On Monday, December 15, 2003 retired U.S. General Wesley Clark will appear before the tribunal in The Hague (ICTY) as a prosecution witness in the 'trial' of Slobodan Milosevic!
As these proceedings are scheduled to begin on Monday, December 15 at 9.00 a.m., a protest meeting will be held in front of the tribunal building at 8.00 a.m.
Following the protest meeting the International Committee for the Defense of Slobodan Milosevic (ICDSM) will hold a PRESS CONFERENCE at 9 a.m. in the Hotel Bel Air (next to the tribunal building).
Canadian lawyer Tiphaine Dickson, a legal assistant to Slobodan Milosevic, will give a press statement and answer the media's questions.
(correction to posting at 8:28 am by)
Godfred Louis-Jensen
Copenhagen
D E N M A R K - Wednesday December 10, 2003 at 12:14 pm
David, I like your latest post very much!!!
Pera Bora
Canada - Wednesday December 10, 2003 at 12:29 pm
The transcripts for November 18. 19, and 20, 2003, when Borisav Jovic testified in favor of "the Accused", are still not available, whereas transcripts for Nov. 24 and 26 are already online.More "technical issues"?
Matthias Gockel
Germany - Wednesday December 10, 2003 at 2:29 pm
“Crime, terror flourish in 'liberated' Kosovo”It’s taken some four years for the truth about Kosovo to begin to be printed in mainstream western media: but at last being printed it is! Last week it was the Sunday Mirror in collaboration with Channel Five TV, this week it is Canada’s National Post. This is positively rapid progress: It took the Vatican some four hundred years to admit it was wrong to persecute Galileo. Is there hope in our lifetime for Milosevic? It’s up to you media guys to keep up the good work: not including, I fear, the BBC.
I like to think that the conduct of the thugs who now ruin/rule Kosovo has become so disgusting over so long a period that those hard nosed journalists not in the pockets of the lobbyists can no longer swallow and relay the nauseating Blairite spin which has pervaded the past four years of commentary upon Kosovo. The NP lands some telling blows on Blair’s friends in the Balkans:
Attacks on Serbs in Kosovo, a province of two million people, have risen sharply. According to statistics collected by the UN criminal tribunal for the former Yugoslavia at The Hague, 1,192 Serbs have been killed, 1,303 kidnapped and 1,305 wounded in Kosovo this year. In June, 1999, just after the NATO bombing, 547 Serbs were killed and 932 were kidnapped.
These atrocities by the KLA are worse than those of pre-war of the Serbian Security Forces alleged by Blair for which he destroyed Serbia. Now he says nothing and does nothing about the disaster which - in winding up Clinton and arm twisting his fellow Nato leaders - is largely his making. The coward hides: ruing the pictures of love-ins with the likes of Thaci and ritual decapitations by Thaci’s KLA.
Last week, Harri Holkeri, the province's UN leader, suspended two generals and 10 other officers, all members of an ethnic Albanian offshoot of the Kosovo Liberation Army, an insurgent group that emerged in the late 1980s to fight Serb security forces. Mr. Holkeri made his decision -- the strongest UN response to violence in the province so far -- after a UN inquiry into the Kosovo Protection Corps (KPC). Although the civilian defence organization is supposed to help local residents, over the past four years, its mostly ethnic Albanian military officials have been involved in violent confrontations with Serbs. The inquiry found last April's bomb attack on a Kosovo railway was the work of the KPC.
The KPC is Kosovo’s police force as established by Blair’s bosom buddy KLA leader Thaci.
"The whole process of rebuilding Kosovo-Metohija as a democratic, multi-ethnic society failed due to both the inability of the UN mission and [NATO] forces to protect Serbs and other non-Albanians from large-scale ethnic cleansing, this time primarily against Serbs," said Dusan Batakovic, a Serb diplomat and leading expert on Kosovo … the situation is deteriorating rapidly.
"NATO forces made a real mess of Kosovo," said James Bissett, a former Canadian ambassador to Yugoslavia. "The bombing of Yugoslavia was a dreadful failure on humanitarian grounds. It failed to stop ethnic cleansing, which has continued after the so-called peace treaty."
In addition, "Balkan Taliban" -- Muslim ethnic Albanian paramilitary groups -- have vandalized Serb cemeteries and destroyed many of the region's Orthodox Christian monasteries and churches.
Kosovo a total failure.
Moreover, Kosovo has turned into one of Europe's biggest hubs for drug trafficking and terrorism. Al-Qaeda has set up bases in the province, which has become an important centre for heroin, cigarette, gasoline and people smuggling. The Albanian mafia and paramilitary groups, which security officials say are closely tied to al-Qaeda militants in the region, also oversee smuggling. More than 80% of Western Europe's heroin comes through Kosovo, where several drug laboratories have been set up, Interpol officials say.
And what good came of it all at last? Tens of billions of GPB’s spent on Blair’s wars as Chancellor Brown revises annual borrowing up to 37 billions, tens of thousands of lives lost, hundreds of thousands injured and millions of lives otherwise destroyed while terrorism is on the rise. Kosovo is but one example of the result of Blair’s illegitimate and unwarranted meddling in other countries affairs!
ICTY Prosecutor del Ponte continues to claim that she still sees no evidence for her to carry out her duty.
Peter Taylor
Herts/UK - Wednesday December 10, 2003 at 2:41 pm
Frank Tiggelaar,Thank you. I would also like to draw you attention that many of the Tribunal.freeserbia videos of the trial start too late. The segments, which are the archived, start now in the middle of the examinations. Can you please see what the problem is. Also, many of the videos are not time coded, and other are, it would be easier for everyone if they were time coded. Thank you
Dan B
Canada - Wednesday December 10, 2003 at 5:45 pm
Milosevic "Trial" Todayhttp://www.slobodan-milosevic.org/news/smorg121003.htm
Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States - Wednesday December 10, 2003 at 5:51 pm
Frank Triggelar I'd just like to join Dan B with the same request to try to do smt. about non time coded videos.
milan c.
netherlands - Wednesday December 10, 2003 at 6:06 pm
Matthias Gockel,Have you e-mailed webmaster@icty.org and told them about the missing transcripts?
Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States - Thursday December 11, 2003 at 5:56 am
Re Dan B and Milan C question/remark
We are aware of the time-code problem and have worked with Real to solve it, but to no avail. On Nov 10 I changed our net to record the archives locally (that is in The Hague) instead of on the RealServer (whish is in Amsterdam). The (English) files we thus recorded are fine, time-code is OK.
As I explained yesterday we are desperately short of bandwidth out of the Hague presently following a screw-up by our telco. This leaves us in a position where we have 1 GB of good English RV-files (11/11 - yesterday) but lack the bandwidth needed to upload it to the archive server.
To accommodate those who follow the trial on a daily basis I have just created a 'missing files' page on my home system holding most of the files you cannot presently access on Bard's server.
Disclaimers: It's the raw stuff, without Bard's usual fine-tuning of start- and end-point,
It runs on a small server capable of handling 10-12 streams at the same time only,
not checked against the schedules whether all files are there (plz email omissions to frankti@xs4all.nl)
URL is http://2002.xs4all.nl/domovina/html/slobo_tmp.html
We are working on a permanent solution. The files without time-code will be re-digitized from tape and re-uploaded, but this is going to be a lengthy process as we only have a tape-deck available for this purpose when there are no court sessions.
I have passed on the note about the Serbian files starting late to the maintainer of that part of the system.
Frank Tiggelaar
Amsterdam
Holland - Thursday December 11, 2003 at 6:17 am
Can anybody tell me how many secret witnesses were from the beginning of the trial, how many closed sessions were there, who called the most of the closed sessions and who most objected them? I think it would be good to do such analysis, if you give me numbers I can do analysis. I think that would speak volumes in the simple terms about ICTY and it could reach more people if so presented - why is justice so blind?
Dakic Ana
Serbia - Thursday December 11, 2003 at 6:51 am
Andy Wilcoxson, yes, I have mailed the webmaster at icty.org, thanks for the advice. I have not received a response. After Rade Markovic had testified in July 2002, there were no transcripts of his testimony for more than a month. Maybe the reason was the summer break, but they still managed to put up the transcripts from the week before Markovic's testimony - break or no break. The videos of the Jovic sessions were quickly available. Given the importance of this witness, the delay is truly astonishing (or rather not astonishing at all, given the nature of this "court").
Matthias Gockel
Germany - Thursday December 11, 2003 at 8:11 am
David I dont think an expert would make your quote below.'In order to conceal their plans for a Greater Serbia, they conned the Austro Hungarians into attacking them so the Austro Hungarians would lose the war and Serbia could expand into Austro Hungarian territory by stealth. Fortunately Nazi Germany was awake to them and took back what belonged to its cousins in WW2.
If you are / were an expert you would know that historically Kosovo and Vojvodina are 2 completely different cases. Ironically Serbia has a much stronger historical claim to Kosovo than Vojvodina. Look at your history and you will see that Hungary and not Serbia has a greater claim to Vojvodina.
Although I largely agree with what you've written I've yet to hear a powerful case made for the retention of Vojvodina by the same historical standards used for the claim for Kosovo.
If you or anybody would like to make this case please do but the Serbs I have spoken to admit that the claim to Vojvodina largely rests upon the fact that Serbs are the majority there today. That is the argument relied upon by Albanians in Kosovo and Croats in Krajina...
Sam Stevens
Eng - Thursday December 11, 2003 at 9:12 am
Sam Stevens,Hungary lost World War I. It signed the Treaty of Trianon, and therefore it has no claim to Vojvodina.
Serbia is only one of many nations that Hungary lost territory to in World War I. Hungary also lost land to Czechoslovakia (Slovakia), Italy, Poland, Austria, and Romania.
The ethnic composition of Vojovodina is really a secondary argument. An influx of Serbian refugees coming from Bosnia and the Krajina has only recently changed Vojovodina's ethnic composition into being a majority Serb composition.
Nobody expelled or mistreated the Hungarians, the Hungarians are still living in Vojovodina and do not appear to be inclined towards violence.
Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States - Thursday December 11, 2003 at 9:28 am
Andy Wilcoxson - thanks for the reply. One could also claim that Serbia lost the war in Kosovo and signed Kumanovo although that would be my secondary argument.Neither does it make any difference that bits of Hungary were given to other countries. Either the principle is right or not.
However I agree that the composition of Vojvodina is used as a secondary argument by Serbs. My question is why is there not a primary argument?! What is the basis for the historical claim of Serbia on Vojvodina? What is the historical claim of Albanians on Kosovo? Either we ask both questions or neither.
BTW it is my understanding that Vojvodina has had influxes of Serbian (mostly refugees) time and again since the first world war.
Ironically I believe that Serbia has a greater claim to Kosovo but will lose it and a much lesser one to Vojvodina but will keep it.
Sam Stevens
Eng - Thursday December 11, 2003 at 9:48 am
Andy .... "The ethnic composition of Vojovodina is really a secondary argument. An influx of Serbian refugees coming from Bosnia and the Krajina has only recently changed Vojovodina's ethnic composition into being a majority Serb composition." I agree. Let me just remind you that after world war II Tito resettled Serbs from Kupres, Lika, Kraina in Banat into German houses. This was called eight offensive. Tito, to make Croatia more ethnically clean, resettles Serbs from Croatia into areas "ethnically cleansed" from Germans. What ustasa did not finish, he continued with 1/3 expelled. This was not the case with Albanians in Kosovo. They were allowed to run away from Enver Hodza in Albania as refugees and given Serbian homes to settle in. That is why you had before WWII 70% Serbs Living in Kosovo and now less than 10%.
Dakic Ana
Serbia - Thursday December 11, 2003 at 9:51 am
His expert knowledge of the age-old Serb 'Joint Criminal Enterprise' against Austro Hungarians et Al. Davis offered to ICTY's mr. Nice, I thought, - rather than to Sam Stevens or Andy Wilcoxson?With but a few days to go before the appearance of war criminal Wesley Clark at the Hague maybe we should concentrate on the current NATO war over Kosovo?
Godfred Louis-Jensen
Copenhagen
D E N M A R K - Thursday December 11, 2003 at 9:54 am
Sam Stevens,Resolution 1244 does not relinquish any Serbian territory, in fact it guarantees Serbia's territorial integrity. Much to the displeasure of the Albanians, Kosovo is still part of Serbia today.
Under the the Treaty of Trianon Hungary relinquished the territory of Vojovodina to Serbia.
That is the difference. Hungary surrendered its territory after World War I, and Serbia didn't surrender any territory after the NATO aggression.
Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States - Thursday December 11, 2003 at 10:05 am
Dakic Ana would you like to make a primary argument for Vojvodina? I would be interested to hear it.Let me just add that it is a matter of fact that Serbs left Krajina not just at / during WW2 but also at / during / after WW1. There is also evidence to suggest that some migration occured during peacetime.
The paralel you draw between Albanians going to Kosovo and Croatian Serbs going to Serbia is intersting. Both have heavily influenced the ethnic make up of the current population today. Of course the Serbs were much more like refugees and the Albanians more like economic migrants. Nothing wrong with either but both are in the end settlers.
The question is then is it defensible to make an arugment that Serbia should retain Kosovo and Vojvodina? And on what grounds? I ask the question with genuine interest and an open mind.
Sam Stevens
UK - Thursday December 11, 2003 at 10:09 am
Somebody has to give back to Mexico ; California New Mexico and Arizona not mentioning Texas that was independent for over a decade before it "joined" the union .
M P
Panama - Thursday December 11, 2003 at 10:15 am
Andy your point is well taken. I am not very familiar with 1244 as I am with more historical matters.However, I would ask you if resolution 1244 allows foreign troops to be stationed in Kosovo? (ie Serbian territory) If so then I disagree most strongly with your comment that it (1244) 'guarantees Serbia's territorial integrity'. I would argue that it guarantees Serbia will not have any territorial integrity. A country does not have to surrender any particular piece of territory in writing if it allows foreign armies in. If they are in it is obvious who decides the future of Kosovo.
My question still stands though. What is the primary or historical argument for Serbia to retain Vojvodina?
Sam Stevens
Eng - Thursday December 11, 2003 at 10:21 am
SamI personally believe that Kosovo should be split that Balkan borders should be changed and that the best way to solve current crisis is to have all Balkan meeting that shall resolve that issue. I believe that people left behind should have all rights as citizens, no more no less. What would that mean? Majority of Kosovo goes to Albania, Bosnian Serb republic goes to Serbia, due to almost half million refugees from Croatia - Croatia should make decision if they want to receive back Serbs or compensate for them in territory, Herzegovina goes to Croatia. As for Muslims - they should decide what is their nationality for once eg, Serbs, Croats, Turk because nobody in Balkans takes seriously Bosnjak nation coined by Madeline Albright. Even if we want to go so far - Bosnia was a part of Serbia and Bosnian Kings were crowned by Nemanjic crown. 1/3 of Macedonia goes to Albanians. So bottom-line shi.. or get of the pot. I would have preferred Yugoslavia as it was - good old days, but since nobody cared to save it to benefit of all people - I have to side with my nation. But you can NOT build multinational Bosnia on the ruins of multinational Yugoslavia.
Dakic Ana
Serbia - Thursday December 11, 2003 at 10:23 am
MP if you are ridiculing the idea of using history to decide territorial claims then you might as well support an independent Kosovo. If not then I dont understand the point.As I understand in about 100 years time if Kosovo remains with Serbia Albanians will be the majority. If current population total is the claim then what's to stop Albanians renaming Serbia if / when they are the majority?
Sam Stevens
Eng - Thursday December 11, 2003 at 10:24 am
Foreign armies stationed .......I think I have started to understand the Irish problem .
M P
Panama - Thursday December 11, 2003 at 10:32 am
Dakic Ana fair enough viewpoint although you dont mention Vojvodina.I have to say that telling people that they have to decide between two nationalities will never work. Particularly so when you take into account that the two nationalities you offer to Bosnian muslums are Serbian and Croatia - their wartime foes. You must know that it is unreasonable and impossible to achieve.
Could you give me a reference to do with Bosnia (including hercegovina) being a part of Serbia? The books I have read suggest that although Serbia had the strongest claim to Bosnia it was not part of Serbia.
Sam Stevens
Eng - Thursday December 11, 2003 at 10:34 am
MP I think you must be a complete cynic. Ireland and todays Kosovo are utterly different for too many reasons to go into here.
S S
Eng - Thursday December 11, 2003 at 10:42 am
Like a "funnel law" the wide part for me and the narrow for you . Btw your initials brings me unpleasent memories .
M P
Panama - Thursday December 11, 2003 at 10:51 am
Has anybody ever seen a Scotish or a Welsh pasports ?
M P
Panama - Thursday December 11, 2003 at 10:54 am
Yes Im sure you dont get many jokes about you get for being a Western capitalist. (Milan Panic)For obvious reasons SS are not good especially when you consider that my first name is Samuel.
Sam Stevens
Eng - Thursday December 11, 2003 at 10:57 am
As far as I know they dont exist and never have. Everything is EU now anyway and before they had British ones.Must go. I really would appreciate more imput on the questions I raise. Thanks.
Sam Stevens
Eng - Thursday December 11, 2003 at 11:19 am
Keep on reading it's a good habit ,but take it easy , first 20 years are hard after that you start learning , as far as Milan Panic , who cares , succesful entreprenour (looks like at least)as a politician a loser . such is life anyway .
M P
Panama - Thursday December 11, 2003 at 11:19 am
As for Vojvodina I agree with you. Difference is that minorities in Vojvodina have civil rights, while minorities in Kosovo under Albnians do not. As for Bosnia try this link http://members.tripod.com/cafehome/serbdom-eng.htm. I shall put only one segment out:Ban Matej Ninoslav (from old Slavic to Serbian) - 1232-1235
In the name of the father, son and the holy ghost! I, God's slave, Matej, branch of Ninoslav, great viceror of Bosnia, swear unto the prince of Dubrovnik Dubrovnik's Zan Dandole (Gianni Dandolli) and all the regions of Dubrovnik. I swear just as Ban Kulin swore before me: For the Vlachs to walk freely as they did in the time of Ban Kulin, freely without deciet and evil...thus if a Serb decieves a Vlach, may he be held in the Ban's court.
(Letter to the Dubrovnikers)
Dakic Ana
Serbia - Thursday December 11, 2003 at 11:25 am
The annals of the Frankish chronologist Einhard, 9-th centuryA source older than that of the the is that of the frankish chronicler Einhard . In his anals, so precious to Serb history, he describes the uprising of the Pannonian prince Ljudevit (818-823). In his work, he claims that Ljudevit ran from Sisak and went "among the Serbs". Accordingly, Serbs must have lived somewhere around Una, maybe even to the west, likely where the modern Serbian Krajina (region of Lika) lies. "Liudevitus Siscia civitate relicta, ad Sorabos, quae natio magnam Dalmatie partem obtinere dicitur, fugiendo se contulit" , that is: [Ljudevit (prince of Lower Panonia 822. - prim. CafeHome) having left the city of Sisak, ran toward the Serbs, for whom the people say inhabit the greater part of Dalmatia). Franjo Racki, the Croatian historian, says, that as the Roaman province of Dalmatia stretched from the Adriatic to Panonia, under those Serbs, who are mentioned by Einhard, we must look ate all those lands between, and the people inhabiting them, ie: Bosnia to be considered Serbian lands, inhabited by Serbs.
Dakic Ana
Serbia - Thursday December 11, 2003 at 11:26 am
Sam Stevens,The question is then is it defensible to make an arugment that Serbia should retain Kosovo and Vojvodina? And on what grounds?
I would say that it is defensible on legal grounds. With the Treaty of Trianon, Hungary gave Vojovodina to Serbia, and under Resolution 1244 Kosovo is legally a part of Serbia.
In practical terms Serbia has no real control over Kosovo. The foreign troops who are occupying Kosovo control it. But that dosen't change the fact that Kosovo is both legally and historically part of Serbia.
Are you suggesting that Balkan borders should be redrawn according to ethnic lines? i.e., All Albanian majority areas to Albania, All Serb majority areas to Serbia, All Croat majority areas to Croatia, and All Hungarian majority areas to Hungary? Is that your idea?
Are you suggesting that Vojovodina should goto Hungary because it is Hungary's historical territory? In that case would you suggest that Transylvania should go to Hungary too? As far as I can see if you believe that Hungary has a claim to Vojovodina, then you must also believe that it has a claim to Transylvania.
Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States - Thursday December 11, 2003 at 11:28 am
Mr. Stevens you only need to look at Atlases prior to 1960’s as well as books about the Crusades and Medieval Europe in order to see the location of Old Serbia. Andy no one surrenders territory willingly only by force and Hungary was no exception. I am not sure which Serbian bishop stated that the land belongs to those who graze their sheep upon it????
John Sims
Canada - Thursday December 11, 2003 at 11:29 am
Sam Stevens,You do not need to be an expert to know that using any of your two kinds of arguments is dangerous.
If you use historical argument the question is how far back in history we should go, and even if we agree on that point will we agree on what history will we take as a relevant one knowing that there is not only one history but more of them or more versions of the same one if you like it better. These differences do not exist only in laymen's world but also in expert's. To use them as an argument for any kind of claims for reshaping the countries would mean the whole world would probably go through the similar experience as Yugoslavia. Using the ethnical (or any other kind based in people's identity) composition as an argument for reshaping countries would again lead to the same consequences. This one being much more dangerous for it is constantly changing, and in our lives' part of history ever faster.
Instead, I suggest that we give back some life to the argument or principle that there should be no disintegration of existing countries (which was widly accepted after WW II) and try to build up the world in which it would be of little importance what country you come from.
Too idealistic? Maybe. But interesting enough Milosevic's "original sin" was exactly the idealism from the above paragraph. If you want to challange this do not use arguments from later than 1988 for the following reason: later than that he could not realise his political vision because reality went into the opposite direction. Of course we can discuss his reactions to what was going on in Yugoslavia later but not for masterminding anything (if not elsewhere it was clearly shown on this forum). However, if Yugoslavia were still existing I would most probably hold Milosevic the most responsible one for masterminding its survival.
Sam, I believe David did not want to show any kind of expertise in his post from Tuesday December 09, 2003 at 10:07 pm. I cannot know what his intention was but can say that I enjoyed it the way I enjoy the finest pieces of irony. And think that irony is one of possible answers to the shameful illigal procedeengs in The Hague, if one do not want to go insane.
ivko rig
- Thursday December 11, 2003 at 11:57 am
If I was an optimist, I would propose civil war.
Gore Vidal
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La - Thursday December 11, 2003 at 12:10 pm
Crime, terror flourish in 'liberated' Kosovo
Ethnic cleansing, smuggling rampant under UN's aegis, writes Isabel Vicent National Post
Wednesday, December 10, 2003
Kosovars painted signs in 1999 thanking NATO forces for liberating their province.
Four years after it was "liberated" by a NATO bombing campaign, Kosovo has deteriorated into a hotbed of organized crime, anti-Serb violence and al-Qaeda sympathizers, say security officials and Balkan experts.
Though nominally still under UN control, the southern province of Serbia is today dominated by a triumvirate of Albanian paramilitaries, mafiosi and terrorists. They control a host of smuggling operations and are implementing what many observers call their own brutal ethnic cleansing of minority groups, such as Serbs, Roma and Jews.
In recent weeks, UN officials ordered the construction of a fortified concrete barrier around the UN compound on the outskirts of the provincial capital Pristina. This is to protect against terrorist strikes by Muslim extremists who have set up bases of operation in what has become a largely outlaw province.
Minority Serbs, who were supposed to have been guaranteed protection by the international community after the 78-day NATO bombing campaign ended in the spring of 1999, have abandoned the province en masse. The last straw for many was the recent round of attacks by ethnic Albanian paramilitaries bent on gaining independence through violence.
Attacks on Serbs in Kosovo, a province of two million people, have risen sharply.
According to statistics collected by the UN criminal tribunal for the former Yugoslavia at The Hague, 1,192 Serbs have been killed, 1,303 kidnapped and 1,305 wounded in Kosovo this year.
In June, 1999, just after the NATO bombing, 547 Serbs were killed and 932 were kidnapped. Last summer, in one of the more grisly massacres, two Serb youths were killed and four others wounded by ethnic Albanian militants while swimming in the Bistrica River, near Pec. The violence continues despite an 18,000-strong NATO-led peacekeeping force and an international police force of more than 4,000. Serbs, who now make up 5% of the population of Kosovo, down from 10% before the NATO campaign, are the main targets of the paramilitary groups.
The bombing was partly launched by NATO countries to end the ethnic cleansing of Albanians by Serb security forces in the region. In its immediate aftermath, many Serbs left Kosovo to settle in other parts of Yugoslavia, now known as Serbia and Montenegro. Last week, Harri Holkeri, the province's UN leader, suspended two generals and 10 other officers, all members of an ethnic Albanian offshoot of the Kosovo Liberation Army, an insurgent group that emerged in the late 1980s to fight Serb security forces.
Mr. Holkeri made his decision -- the strongest UN response to violence in the province so far -- after a UN inquiry into the Kosovo Protection Corps (KPC). Although the civilian defence organization is supposed to help local residents, over the past four years, its mostly ethnic Albanian military officials have been involved in violent confrontations with Serbs.
The inquiry found last April's bomb attack on a Kosovo railway was the work of the KPC.
"The whole process of rebuilding Kosovo-Metohija as a democratic, multi-ethnic society failed due to both the inability of the UN mission and [NATO] forces to protect Serbs and other non-Albanians from large-scale ethnic cleansing, this time primarily against Serbs," said Dusan Batakovic, a Serb diplomat and leading expert on Kosovo.
Dr. Batakovic and other Balkan experts, who attended a conference in Toronto last month to discuss Kosovo's future, say the situation is deteriorating rapidly.
"NATO forces made a real mess of Kosovo," said James Bissett, a former Canadian ambassador to Yugoslavia. "The bombing of Yugoslavia was a dreadful failure on humanitarian grounds. It failed to stop ethnic cleansing, which has continued after the so-called peace treaty."
In addition, "Balkan Taliban" -- Muslim ethnic Albanian paramilitary groups -- have vandalized Serb cemeteries and destroyed many of the region's Orthodox Christian monasteries and churches. "This is a strategy of cutting Kosovo Serbs off from their historical and religious traditions," said Dr. Batakovic in his report to the North American Society of Serbian Studies conference.
Moreover, Kosovo has turned into one of Europe's biggest hubs for drug trafficking and terrorism.
Al-Qaeda has set up bases in the province, which has become an important centre for heroin, cigarette, gasoline and people smuggling.
The Albanian mafia and paramilitary groups, which security officials say are closely tied to al-Qaeda militants in the region, also oversee smuggling. More than 80% of Western Europe's heroin comes through Kosovo, where several drug laboratories have been set up, Interpol officials say.
During the wars (1991-99) that led to the breakup of Yugoslavia, drugs and other commodities were smuggled through Bulgaria and Turkey to Western Europe.
Now, more than 5,000 tonnes of heroin pass directly through Kosovo every month. In a recent article in Serbia's Vreme magazine, Kosovo was referred to as the "republic of heroin." "The Albanians have become the alpha and omega of the drugs trade in southeast Europe," said Marko Nicovic, chairman of the International Police Association for the Fight Against Drugs.
"There are two reasons for this. The first is the fact that Kosovo is now under the control of the Albanian mafia lobby and the criminal police do not operate there. This is literally a paradise for all kinds of crime, especially narcotics." The Albanian mafia also control trafficking in cigarettes, weapons, gasoline and women. Dozens of young women from impoverished towns and villages in the region are forced into prostitution rings centred in Kosovo, security officials say. Many of the women are taken by mobsters to work in Western European countries. There is little consensus on the way ahead. Many Serbs and moderate ethnic Albanian politicians would like a decision on Kosovo's legal status -- should it remain a province of Serbia or become independent?
Many ethnic Albanians are calling for independence, but their more extremist elements would like to fold the province into a Greater Albania that would see ethnic Albanians take over the mostly Albanian regions of neighbouring Macedonia as well. The Serb government in Belgrade wants Kosovo to continue as part of Serbia. Although it is four years since the NATO bombing, talks on Kosovo's future began only recently. Serb and ethnic Albanian leaders met in Vienna in October to discuss transportation and the return of Serb refugees to Kosovo. "At this point, the chances for Kosovo remaining in Serbia are pretty slim," Mr. Bissett said. "There is a powerful Albanian lobby in the United States that is determined to make Kosovo independent."
Moreover, many Serb leaders know that to attract the much-needed aid and investment, they will need to give way on Kosovo, experts say.
In the meantime, the situation is expected to get worse, with renewed threats of violence against both the United Nations and Serbs in the province.
"It's a terrible situation," said Mr. Bissett. "If the United Nations and other organizations can't handle Kosovo, you wonder how they are going to do with something like Iraq."
http://canada.com/search/story.aspx?id=e1a583c8-5192-41ab-9e14-c8b472edc4eb
Dan B
Canada - Thursday December 11, 2003 at 12:28 pm
John Sims,I agree that Hungary was probably not happy to loose all of that territory after World War I.
But what are you suggesting? Do you think that Romania, Slovakia, and all of the other countries who Hungary lost land to in World War I should give that territory back to Hungary? Or is it only Serbia who should give back Vojovodina?
Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States - Thursday December 11, 2003 at 1:16 pm
Dan B.,According to statistics collected by the UN criminal tribunal for the former Yugoslavia at The Hague, 1,192 Serbs have been killed, 1,303 kidnapped and 1,305 wounded in Kosovo this year.
Amazing. Thank you for the Article.
Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States - Thursday December 11, 2003 at 2:11 pm
Welcome Andy,This article appeared in one of Canada's largest papers, The National Post. It is remarkable that they published this.
Dan B
Canada - Thursday December 11, 2003 at 2:39 pm
Sam Stevens: the Serbian medieval statest were not consolidated until later. There was Raska and Zeta, so you could, in a way, consider parts of medieval Bosnia as a 'third Serbian state', with the other parts being part of a unified Croatian state until the ascendance of Hungary.
P M
USA - Thursday December 11, 2003 at 2:45 pm
Sam Stevens: I agree with you. There is no doubt that if we take the last 8 centuries or so, the Hungarian claim to Vojvodina is much stronger than the Serbian. The Serbian population arrived mainly in the 17th century with the Velika Seoba Srba - ironically Serbs fleeing Turkish-Albanian-Muslim terror in Kosovo. However, this is not to say that there wasn't a Slav presence in what is today Vojvodina even before the Hungarians came into Europe. Almost certainly there were Slavs (and possibly Germans) there, but were they Serbs? You also have to look at imperial arguments - why should Hungary have a stronger claim over Transylvania, for example, than Romania? Afterall, the Romanians lived in that territory before the Magyars arrived in Europe. Then again, the Hungarians have ruled it for almost a millenium before they lost it. Who should get it? You get similar arguments to the Palestinian situation. Jews have not been a major factor in that are since the 7th century A.D. to the 19th century. However, there is no doubt that they did live there 2000 years ago. So, who should get the area of Israel-Palestine?
P M
USA - Thursday December 11, 2003 at 3:21 pm
P MI agree. If we do leave history alone and focus on preset what do we do now? I believe that Yugoslav mess would not have if US, Europe and UN gave us and the rest of the world a strict rule on nation building. What are they? Who has the right to recognize independent states? Is up to individual countries or blocks or UN? Who has the final word? And where nation building stops? If the rules are strict and spelled out you could see a lot of changes around world - Corsica, Ireland, California... It sold not be up to Island and Germany and US lobby to decide a future of the nations.
Dakic Ana
Serbia - Thursday December 11, 2003 at 5:38 pm
Hi Andy, According to my info, the numbers are correct, except for the part "this year". These figures have been provided by the Ministry of the Interior of the Republic of Serbia through the local Red Cross organization and the ICRC, UN police and the Hague Tribunal’s investigators.If you do a search, this number is the total since the arrival of KFOR.
Dan B
Canada - Thursday December 11, 2003 at 7:21 pm
SamShould Wales, Scotland, and Ulster be set free of the English dominated British Army ?
AP V
NY
NY - Thursday December 11, 2003 at 8:03 pm
Correction of National Post (Canada) report:This comment:
According to statistics collected by the UN criminal tribunal for the former Yugoslavia at The Hague, 1,192 Serbs have been killed, 1,303 kidnapped and 1,305 wounded in Kosovo this year. In June, 1999, just after the NATO bombing, 547 Serbs were killed and 932 were kidnapped.
Should read:
According to statistics collected by the UN criminal tribunal for the former Yugoslavia at The Hague, 1,192 Serbs have been killed, 1,303 kidnapped and 1,305 wounded in Kosovo: these are totals since Nato’s attack, published this year. The bodies of several hundred of the 1,303 kidnapped have been recovered and these are included in the total killed. In June, 1999, just after the NATO bombing, 547 Serbs were killed and 932 were kidnapped. These numbers are included in the totals given above.
Also according to the testimony of Kosovo Albanian political leader Bujar Bukoshi more than one thousand ethnic Albanians were slaughtered by the KLA in this period.
Some four and a half thousand bodies have been located and the vast majority of them appear to be victims of KLA violence. In spite of the ICTY’s own statistics, tunnel-visionned del Ponte maintains she can see no evidence for indicting the KLA leadership.
The National Post (Canada) article was preceded on Sunday by an article in the Sunday Mirror (UK) exposing the New Variant KLA’s willingness to supply the IRA with weapons and explosives in order to kill and maim British citizens.
Two swallows don’t make a summer: but maybe - just maybe - we will now see the ‘mislead’ western media reporting the truth about Blair’s chums in the Balkans: the thugs who now rule Kosovo?
Lots of humble pie will have to be swallowed before Ball’s “10,356” victims of Serbian Security forces are admitted to be mainly some 3,500 victims of the KLA in a true total of some 5,000 victims. To these must be added some 500 to 1,000 victims of Nato’s bombs in Kosovo alone.
But hope springs eternal. At least the historians can’t fail to get it right and condemn this abortion of justice: the ICTY Trial of Milosevic.
Peter Taylor
Herts/UK - Thursday December 11, 2003 at 9:23 pm
Since Mr. Wesley Clark is coming to the Hague this Saturday, I did some research and found an interview he gave. In it he talks about General Neumann and their encounter with Milosevic. Neumann claimed, on the stand, that Milosevic told him in 1999 "that Yugoslavia's problems would be solved if ethnic Albanians were murdered."General Clark talks about the same subject in the interview, stating "He recounted to us that he knew how to deal with the Albanians, that in 1946, the Albanians that he called "murderers and bandits," were handled by "killing them all, although it took several years, we killed them all."
In the Hague, the prosecution asked General Neumann. Here is the question from June 14, 2002:
Q. Very briefly, General. At the bottom of page 151, there is reference, third to the last paragraph, which starts with the words: "And so the paper was completed ...," et cetera, et cetera. And then the next paragraph refers to Milosevic bringing in "... brandy in for himself, Milutinovic and me, and for once I joined him. He grew philosophical...began to discuss the economic future of Serbia." And then he - I'm skipping - he abruptly changed subjects and he said, and I propose to quote:
You know, General Clark, that we know how to handing these Albanians, these murderers, these rapists, these killers-of-their-own-kind. We've taken care of them before.' His face turned red, and his voice rose in strength as he condemned them. This is the paragraph out of some public statement. He wasn't really speaking to us, I thought. "`In Drenica in 1946, we killed them all. We killed them all.' Naumann and I were just staring at him. "He must have thought we didn't believe him, so he began to qualify the accomplishment. `Oh, it took several years but we eventually killed them all.'"
How, if at all, does that accord with your recollection?
I think that is not -- not too far away from what I stated, and it confirms what I had said. The wording is slightly different but all in all I think it's identical.
Then, Mr. Milosevic had his chance.
JUDGE ROBINSON: [Previous translation continues]... "same to them as we did in Drenica in 1945 or 1946." "What was that, Mr. President?" "We got them all together and shot them." You must deal with that.
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'll come to that, Mr. Robinson. And if you really wish me to, I'll come to it straight away. Actually, I don't know whether even a small child can have any doubts as to the absurdity that we're dealing with.
To read the full cross-examination: http://www.un.org/icty/transe54/020613ED.htm
The broadcast of the testimony of General Clark will be delayed and shown on Friday 19 December 2003 starting at 9.00 a.m. Media wishing to contact General Clark’s public relations staff over the 15 and 16 December 2003 can reach them on the following number: + 44 7974 982591
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/kosovo/interviews/clark.html
This is a lot of info for today, so it will be my last post for Thursday.
Dan B
Canada - Thursday December 11, 2003 at 9:55 pm
Quote of the Day goes to Mr. George W. BushBush scoffed at a question seeking his reaction to Schroeder's statement on Thursday that international law must apply to the awarding of the contracts.
"International law? I better call my lawyer," he said.
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20031211/ts_nm/iraq_usa_dc_10
Dan B
Canada - Friday December 12, 2003 at 3:40 am
Peter Taylor and Dan B.,I thought that statistic was a bit high for just this year too.
And if one wishes to speak about Drenica after World War II, then perhaps one should read this article:
http://emperors-clothes.com/articles/thompson/rootsof.htm
Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States - Friday December 12, 2003 at 4:12 am
SS http://balkanalysis.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=205 Vojvodina is a Hungarian province that was given to Serbia as spoils of war Today’s Vojvodina forms the eastern end of the old Military Frontier (Grenz, also Vojna Krajina), settled by Serb refugees from Kosovo and elsewhere. Its name indeed means “Duchy,” and it was known as “Serb duchy” (Srpska vojvodina) before World War 1. It declared a union with the Kingdom of Serbia in December 1918, well before the Treaty of Trianon “gave” it away from Hungary.
Aleksandar Jokic
OR - Friday December 12, 2003 at 6:54 am
It is all very well, that Sam Stevens is asking a question on whether or not 'it is defensible (for whom?) to make an argument that Serbia should retain Kosovo and Vojvodina...But what do such 'questions' have to do with the (current) ICTY 'trial' against Milosevic?
In my view this JURIST 'trial discussion' tends to waste precious time on matters which (although they are often 'interesting') have no bearing whatever on Milosevic's case.
Is that fair?
Godfred Louis-Jensen
Copenhagen
D E N M A R K - Friday December 12, 2003 at 7:50 am
All the questions that arise in regard of Serbia and its existence , its culture , and wathever has to do with its ethnical essence is a product of the negative image given to the world about Serbs to justify the unjustifiable , sometimes it gets to the boredom to answer questions that carry a hidden malevolent intention driven by the ignorance of the historic facts or distortion of the truth . And yes again and again we are distracted from the main issue . Is President Milosevic getting a fair trial? , but on the other hand , as a person of principles there are ongoing situations in the world that can not be overlooked and uncommented
M P
Panama - Friday December 12, 2003 at 9:46 am
The ICTY has slapped a gagging order on Milosevic ....... This reminds me of the gladiator that was burried to his neck to fight a lion , when the lion jumped on him and he bite off the lions nuts , the emperor yelled at him , play fair you b........
M P
Panama - Friday December 12, 2003 at 10:35 am
Albanian police say several servicemen have been arrested on suspicion of sexually abusing a 16-year old girl. The men are accused of raping the girl before selling her to a gang in Kosovo which forced her into prostitution.UN staff eventually rescued the girl and helped her to return to Albania.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3311967.stm
Dakic Ana
Serbia - Friday December 12, 2003 at 11:19 am
Freedom of Speech
at the ICTY
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La - Friday December 12, 2003 at 11:24 am
It seems all the oposition to DOS is at the ICTY. It is dificult to "play" democracy from there.
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La - Friday December 12, 2003 at 11:35 am
I wonder if that general is going to use his "testimony" for his political bid for the presidency of the United States of Petrolia. One never knows!
Gogol Charlemagne
Petroleum Free Shangri-La - Friday December 12, 2003 at 1:19 pm
Today we have learned of two new rules under which the ICTY tribunal operates:
1. One would think that the tribunal should deal with bringing justice to the countries of the former Yugoslavia, but today we have learned that they are there to maintain peace not law and order. Today, they have admitted that their role in the former Yugoslavia can be described as: Political Militarism.Under Cover of Jurisprudence”.(Reuter’s article posted by Gogol states :)
”The U.N. court said it had imposed the ban because it was concerned campaigning by war crimes suspects could undermine the court's mandate to maintain peace in the former Yugoslavia.”
2. One would think that a public witness is one whose testimony is presented as is to the public, but today we learn that there is a new rule 48 Hours delay Bis, that allows privileged governments to redact testimony of there citizens, so that this testimony can be presented to the interested public that has to accept it as real public testimony.
The fair tribunal indeed!!!
Pera Bora
Ottawa
Canada - Friday December 12, 2003 at 2:26 pm
If the UN court, the ICTY, was truly interested in maintaining the peace in Kosovo del Ponte would have indicted the KLA leaders years ago: 3000 murders ago.This is just another dishonest excuse to excuse unjust conduct.
Peter Taylor
Herts/UK - Friday December 12, 2003 at 2:31 pm
Whether we like it or not the ICTY is the brain child (as Adolph Hitler was) of bourgeois democracy.
Gogol Charlemagne
Petroleum Free Shangri-La - Friday December 12, 2003 at 3:30 pm
This is truly sad. Every honest person had an obligation to ensure that others know about the real nature of the ICTY. Turly sad,
Dan B
Canada - Friday December 12, 2003 at 6:45 pm
MP, (Friday December 12, 2003 at 7:50 am),Yes, - there are 'situations in the world' that can not (go) uncommented...
There is no way however that 'we' shall manage within the framework of this JURIST discussion to comment on 'all the questions in regard of Serbia and its existence, its culture, and whatever' - is there?
Neither is that necessary for the purposes of this 'trial'; the devil I believe is in particular (little) details, such as this one - dug up by Peter Taylor:
"There was no massacre at Racak as the refusal of the ICTY to indict the commander of Serb forces there, Major Radosavljevic, demonstrates." (Wednesday December 10, 2003, 8:30 am).
Right on the spot (as usual, I'd say!). Such facts are milestones which will eventually make it impossible for the ICTY to convict mr. Milosevic - I am convinced about that!
(Provided of course that these details are fully appreaciated for their potential, not merely sunk into the deep well of 'questions in regard of Serbia').
Godfred Louis-Jensen
Copenhagen
D E N M A R K - Friday December 12, 2003 at 6:55 pm
Be prepared for the worst and hope for the best!or how not to be like the ostrich which hides her head in the sand.
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La - Friday December 12, 2003 at 6:58 pm
Pera Bora,He is accused of "undermining the peace in Yugoslavia" with this speech:
http://www.slobodan-milosevic.org/news/milosevic120303.htmI think that the real reason for the communication ban is Wesley Clark. I think that they want to keep Milosevic cut off until after Clark's testimony is "old news."
Obviously the speech he made to the SPS wasn't aimed at inciting any sort of armed conflict. He was only expressing his views to the party about the upcoming elections.
I don't think this is about the Serbian elections, and his speech. I think that they're afraid that Wesley Clark will be embarassed by President Milosevic.
Anyway you can read my two cents worth here:
http://www.slobodan-milosevic.org/news/smorg121203.htm
Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States - Friday December 12, 2003 at 7:03 pm
Iraq: Law Creating War Crimes Tribunal FlawedBut not for Yugoslavia ...
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La - Friday December 12, 2003 at 8:42 pm
By gagging Milosevic & others the ICTY has somehow forgotten the notion innocent until proven guiltyThe longer the ICTY hearings go on, the more opportunities the ICTY has to discredit itself.
The latest move in gagging its prisioners is simply more evidence that the ICTY is only a star chamber
AP V
NY
NY - Friday December 12, 2003 at 9:44 pm
AN URGENT CALL FOR YOUR PROTESTS!ICTY/US/NATO Criminal Attack on Truth, Freedom, Judiciary, Human Rights and Free Democratic Will of the Serbian People
President Milosevic Cut from All Contacts with the Outside World; War Criminal Wesley Clark to Testify in Secrecy; Total US Takeover of ICTY; According to the Polls, the Opposition Will Win the Serbian Elections; Demonstrations at The Hague and ICDSM Press Conferences in The Hague and New York
PROTEST IMMEDIATELY! ADDRESS ICTY, UN, GOVERNMENTS!
Today, recently US-imposed “Deputy Registrar” of ICTY David Tolbert, who effectively runs the Registry in presence of alive Hans Holthuis (The Netherlands), the Registrar, have made an illegal decision to ban all phone contacts and visits of President Milosevic with any person, except “his immediate family” and “recognized legal representatives (if any)”. A similar decision was made today in the case of Dr Vojislav Seselj. Alleged reason: Serbian elections!
http://www.un.org/icty/milosevic/trialc/decision-e/031211.htm
Sloboda has already challenged illegal grounds for such restrictions in its letter to Tolbert’s imminent boss, also recently appointed ICTY President Theodor Meron (USA). In spite he was obliged, Meron never responded to the Sloboda motion.
http://www.sloboda.org.yu/engleski/request.html
This is happening when polls and media reports show clear advantage of the opposition forces in the pre-election campaign in Serbia. Major event of this campaign was, of course, the fact that the left-patriotic ticket of the Socialist Party of Serbia is led by President Milosevic. His address to the Head Committee of SPS produced and is still producing a major impact on the people. So the reaction of the ICTY, the major weapon of the occupation of Serbia is an expected expression of fear.
http://www.sloboda.org.yu/engleski/SMelections.htm
Anyhow, this illegal and outrageous sign of desperation of war criminals’ puppets at The Hague, must not be tolerated!
This is happening just two days before “the testimony” of the convicted (by the Belgrade District Court) war criminal general Wesley Clark. The conditions (full secrecy and possibility that US government redacts the transcript!) for his testimony imposed by US Government is a completely open admission that ICTY has no independence and that it is run neither by its “judges” nor by the UN Security Council, but by the US Government.
http://www.un.org/icty/pressreal/2003/p802-e.htm
http://www.un.org/icty/pressreal/2003/PA149-e.htm
(note that the ICTY is putting President Milosevic into total isolation, advertising (!) at the same time, phone number of the General Clark’s PR representative! The number is: + 44 7974 982591)
What do they have to hide? The dirtiest part of the contemporary American history - the role of Clinton/Albright/Clark clique in building Al Qaeda, KLA and World terrorism; worst, cruelest and merciless war crimes in Yugoslavia.
http://globalresearch.ca/articles/CHO310B.html
Wesley Clark has to start his two-days “testimony” on Monday, 15 December 2003 at 9 a.m. in the ICTY at The Hague.
Since 8 a.m. a demonstrations will be held in front of the Tribunal.
Same morning, at 9 a.m. an ICDSM press conference will take part in the nearby Bel Air hotel. ICDSM attorney, Ms. Tiphaine Dickson (Quebec/Canada) will appear. Read a call for these events below (1).
A press conference is also expected to take place on 16 December in New York or Washington.
Let us not allow that ideals of the Peoples of the World, which founded UN organization be insulted by war criminals who use ICTY as a cover!
React immediately and address your appeals to ICTY, UN, your governments and the public!
Take part in the planned protest actions and organize your own!
Vladimir Krsljanin,
on behalf of
SLOBODA/Freedom Association and
International Committee for the Defense of Slobodan Milosevic
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address of the Tribunal (ICTY):
International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia
Churchillplein 1, 2517JW The Hague,
NETHERLANDS
Fax: +31 70 512 8637
Other useful contacts one can find at:
http://www.icdsm.org/addresses.htm
(1) Postings of December 10, 2003 at 8:28 and 11:55 am apply
(message relayed (largely) as received by)
Godfred Louis-Jensen
Copenhagen
D E N M A R K - Saturday December 13, 2003 at 12:52 am
WESLEY CLARK, WILLIAM WALKER - SPEAKING NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH?As the military aide to Ambassador Holbrooke during the Dayton Peace Accords, General Wesley Clark may have acquired 'firsthand knowledge of Milosevic's manner and methods'. Named NATO Supreme Allied Commander in 1997, Clark hoped to use this knowledge 'to snuff out the escalating conflict in Kosovo'...
In a FRONTLINE interview (1) the General was referring to a 'triggering event' at Racak:
When NATO reassembled in January, 1999, we warned the Secretary General about the grave threat to NATO's credibility. Before NATO could take action, we received a call from Ambassador Bill Walker one Saturday about the massacre in Racak. He told me, "I've been there, I've looked at it, and there's no doubt. This is not the first time I've seen dead bodies. I know what I am looking at."
I immediately called Secretary General Solana and said, "Here's the next triggering event."
(1) FRONTLINE interview, 2000.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/kosovo/interviews/clark.html
Indeed Racak was to serve as 'the triggering event'! Is it then not all the more surprising that when later asked by the ICTY Prosecutor about this very particular 'call' the supreme creator of 'the massacre', Ambassador Walker himself, had no recollection of talking to General Clark - or of any phone calls at all...
Ambassador Walker was testifying in the Hague on 11-12 June, 2002:
THE PROSECUTOR, MR. NICE: What summary can you give us of your recollection of making phone calls and your explanation, if any, for what's been said about them?
WITNESS, AMBASSADOR WILLIAM WALKER: I've been asked many times that question, and I sincerely have no recollection of myself talking to some of the people who have later said they talked to me. This would include people in Vienna with the OSCE and others...
If people claim I spoke to them either while I was at Racak or on the way back or before the press conference, I have no doubt. I don't question that. I probably did. But...I frankly have no memory, no recollection of -- of talking to any of these people. But this does not mean I did not. If they say I did, I'm quite sure they are not lying...
(2) Trial Transcripts, Page 6799, line 3 - Page 6800, line 5.
The Hague, 12 June 2002. http://www.un.org/icty/transe54/020612IT.htm
Walker may 'know what he is looking at' - but won't remember a phone call? Yet Clark does not hesitate to expedite his triggering hear-say to the very top of the NATO chain of command...
Godfred Louis-Jensen
Copenhagen
D E N M A R K - Saturday December 13, 2003 at 1:05 am
The latest 48 Hour bis rule is also accompanied by a 48 Year bis rule, as has been the case with many operations such as in the Bay of Pigs, the Tonkin Gulf, the Guatemala Harbour mine show, the Allende suicide, the Northwood Project and so on.
The sole reason there's a secret session is to avoid embarrassing Weasley Clark and the US administrations responsible for what has been done to YU and ALL its people.
Yes, it's in the "national interest" of the US NOT to reveal to its people the extent to which they are lied and what is ACTUALLY perpetrated allegedly in the name of the good people of America. Such a loss of faith by the people of America in their government could indeed be disastrous, but not necessarily for the American people themselves.
As for EXPERT historical testimony on behalf of Mr Nice's theory of a Joint Criminal Enterprise, please note that I would expect to be paid and rewarded just as handsomely as the preceding experts. Maybe a Madeline Allbright Scholarship or something along those lines, or an associate professorship at the Harvard or Yale School of Balkan History or maybe an honorary executive position at the IWPR. Failing that a post with one of George Soros' endowments could come in handy.
And some cash and identity protection wouldn't go astray either! Such rare historical knowledge and insight does not come cheap, Mr Nice, as you know full well.
David
Oztralia