 MILOSEVIC TRIAL DISCUSSION ARCHIVE |
| JURIST >> LEGAL NEWS - WORLD LAW >> Discussion >> Milosevic Trial Discussion Archive |
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Former Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic is on trial for war crimes in the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia at The Hague. This marks the first time a head of state has been personally prosecuted before an international criminal court.
Is Slobodan Milosevic getting a fair trial?
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- discussion archive
- Monday December 23, 2002 at 1:07 am
Gogol, it doesn't seem to be appathy. These are the third elections this year in Montenegro. Municipial ones took place on 15. May, and the parliamentary on 20. Oktober, and in both the turn-out was about 77 %. The situation in Montenegro hasn't changed, at least not as radically as the wish to go to the polls have. But there have been some developments therer which seem to be changing the political atmosphere in Montenegro. These are connected with illegal people trafficking in which a large number of high ranking officials seem to be involved. The Vice Attorny General was put in prison about three weeks ago, some well informed people say that even the Attorny General himself is involved in the affair. Some other criminal (read dirty) businesses are also coming into daylight. The Police Minister who pulled the trigger has allready been put out of the game; the new (old buddy Milo Djukanoviæ) Prime Minister, who is trying to form the new governement these days, doesn't want him in his government, for he didn't inform him of his intention to arrest the Vice Attorney General.The difference between the turn-out in these and the previous elections equals the percent of voters who support political parties which have been for a few years calling attention to the fact that Montenegro has become a criminal enterprise (one of the most prominent politicians among these has often been mantioned as a possible traveller to The Hague and still seems to be supporting Miloševiæ). So, we can speak about "active passivity" and learn to live with paradoxes. I believe the same happened in Serbia, and I wasn't surprised at all.
To my opinion there is an even more important reason: Javier Solana. Montenegrins are proud people (not only in the meaning of "proud" in the tourist guides) and a lot of them cannot take the fact that someone who put "fire-balls" onto them a few years ago is now becoming one of the most important politicians in their country (J. Solana "helped" create a new constitution for Serbia and Montenegro).
Yugoslavia is a thorn in the gentle Europe's flesh again, indeed.
Guys, I'm far from being happy about what's going on having in mind the beginings of the WW I & II and the present situation in the world of ours.(Paranoid, I know.)
Jagoš Mirkoviæ
Ljubljana
Slovenia - Monday December 23, 2002 at 2:24 am
The Hague refers to the "Bosnian-Croatian-Serbian" language. When I ask students what language they speak, if they answer "Bosnian" I reply in Bosnian-Croatian- Serbian, simultaneously, "I speak Bosnian, too, and Croatian, amnd Serbian and Montenegrin...". They laugh. PC BS. The University, in fulfillment of its requirement for doctoral students to pas a reading trest in two foreigh languages, allow Bosnia, Croatian, and Serbian as different languages. The Muslims, Catholics and orthodox find one thing to agree on: they laugh at the stupidity and elect two of thes "languages." On 29 June 1914, the NY Times headline ran: "HEIR TO AUSTRIA'S THRONE IS SLAIN WITH HIS WIFE BY A BOSNIAN YOUTH TO AVENGE SEIZURE OF HIS COUNTRY" Before the anti-Serb propaganda war started, a Bosnian" was anyone from Bosnia, Ctholic Croat, Serb, Muslim or other... j p maher (My surname is originally O'MEACHAIR, a Tipperary moniker)
john_peter maher
USA - Monday December 23, 2002 at 2:46 am
The University in question is Calgary. Muslims, Croats and Serbs are united in laughter, at least, when the take their exam in the "two" languages. Now hear this: Literary Croatian is Serbian. Bosnian" is Serbian. "From Guide to the Slavonic Languages by R.G. A.DeBray. Lecturer in Comparative Slavonic Philology at the School of the Slavonic and East European Studies, University of London. 1951 London: J. M. Dent & Sons Ltd. New York: E. P. Dutton & Co. Inc. Gaj, Ljudevit (1808-72) chose the je- version of the sto dialect..., the same dialect (i.e Herzegovinian Serbian) as chosen by Vuk Karadzic and one of the most widely spoken in the Yugoslav lands. Gaj introduced a phonetic spelling exactly corresponding to that introduced by Vuk for Cyrillic. Thus he helped the Croats to give up their local dialect as a literary medium and enter a wider field. .. The final seal to this work was set by the Vienna Literary Agreement (Becki knjizevni dogovor) in 1850, when all the leading Yugoslav scholars of the time, including both Vuk and Gaj, and agreed on the final adoption of a common literary language on the following basis: the adoption of a single dialect in its unadulterated form rather than a composite language embodying the features of several dialects; this dialect was to be the je-version of the {to dialect, already mentioned above, the most widely spoken dialect except in Serbia. ... Since 1918 we have witnessed a period (till 1951) in which the fusion of the main dialects can be regarded, for all practical purposes, as complete; the language can be written in the Latin alphabet or in Cyrillic, in either the e- or the je-variety of the sto dialect, which are mutually intelligible straight away...' The genuine Croats are the ~ajkavski Croats on the islands (their word for 'what?' is ca ) and the kajkvski speakers of Zagorje. The latter seem to be Slovenes in origin." Another harpo-slav, Thomas F. Magner quotes mid-19th century Croat scholars to this effect. (A Zagreb Kajkavian dialect. 1966: page 3. Penn State U. Press.) It is a desideratum for demographers and church historians to ascertain the percentage of Croats who are descendants of Catholicized Serbs. Just so, the Norwegian Lutherans of today are the descendants, as every Norse kid knows, of earlier Catholic Norwegians, and earlier on the heathen Vikings. Stoltenberg was basically right in saying "They are all Serbs". -- In Ireland the Normans became "hiberniores hibernis ipsis" "more Irish than the Irish themselves (Giraldus Cambrensis). Meanwhile, back in Bosnia, let us note that the Cyrillic script of the 15th century (Battle of Kosovo + 11) was termed "bosancica". For the Roman Catholic Church, Bosnia was mission territory, and the best way to convert the natives is in their native tongue. Andric in his doctoral dissertation noted that the Franciscans used Cyrillic letters until the late 19th century, well after the formulation of Gaj's latinica. See: Ivo Andric. 1990. The Development of Spiritual Life in Bosnia under the Influence of Turkish Rule. Translators-editors Zelimir Juricic & John F. Loud. Duke University Press. Durham NC & London.The dissertation was originally published in German at the U. of Graz under the title Die Entwicklung des geistigen Lebens in Bosnien unter der Einwirkung der tuerkischen Herrschaft. Diplomas in Dalmatia were issued in Cyrillic until the 1960s. On 20 April 1994, I spoke -- in Serbian -- with a young man at Northeastern Illinois University (Chicago). The Muslim activists had plastered the halls with notices of a talk to be given by a student Krvavac and Dr. Hasim Cosovic. (He's a chiropractor. His office, which I pass frequently, must be a front, as there never seem to be any patients going in, sitting in the waiting room, or coming out.) After the chiropractor told the assemblage that 60,00 Muslim women had beeen raped by those busy Bosnian Serbs, I hung around for a little conversation. One student, having heard of my occasional appearances challenging Serb-bashers, told me I was going to get beaten up. I disarmed the moment by asking him -- in Serbian -- "what language do you speak?". His answer was "o, pricas!". Ti znas nas jezik." -Whether he spoke Serbian or Bosnian at that moment I have yet to determine. A blonde lady, ca. 50 years old, of big stature joined the group. The young man had, after some reflection, answered me that his tongue was "bosnjacki". The large lady was disgusted with his word, and made the correction "bosanski!". Finally, Radovan Karadzic is by birth a Serb from the Serb land Monte Negro. His language is, not Ian Williams' nonsensical and incompetent "hybrid Serbian/Bosnian accent", but a western variant of Serbian, a.k.a. Serbo-Croatian. He is Bosnian by virtue of his address through his whole working life, until Yugoslavia was busted up by the New World Order, the Godzilla of Western Civilization. Radovan Karadzic is also a descendant, by the way, of the Vuk Stefanovic Karadzic mentioned above. He taught the Serbian language to Jacob Grimm, who introduced Vuk to Wolfgang von Goethe, who was a great admirer of the brave Serb people in its struggle, like that of the Irish, against genocidal neighbors and their satellites in Croatia and Islamic Bosnia-Hercegovina.
john_peter maher
usa - Monday December 23, 2002 at 3:35 am
I love this stuff. We are now even exploring new dimensions of ethnic cleansing: killing pigs and horses. On the other hand, I am sure that Mesic didn't look at their chromosomes to determine if the animals were Serb or Croat, so how do they know? If depriving someone of their livelihood is ethnic cleansing, then surely the bombing the industrial plants in 1999 was ethnic cleansing.Gogol, I think there is an obsession, and a rather childish one at that (remember Blair), among the Western politicians with WW2, although it is true what you say. Otherwise, I don't think we would have to endure Elie Wiesel.
Also, it is true that the Jews and the Serbs have a lot of things in common. But what are these "things in common" exactly? That both have been stigmatized? That both have been in the concentration camps? Is that really the core of the Jewish-Serbian friendship? That doesn't seem to me any assurance of a beautiful friendship.
But I agree with you, Gogol. I think that the US has found itself out of depth as the world's only remaining superpower. It has been out of its depth ever since the Gulf War. And it is here that the US needs the WW2 rhetoric. The West cannot be wrong: the US and Britain won the Secodn World War!
So everything that happened in Yugoslavia had to be explained as something worst since the WW2. And when the West ultimately paid the price for everything it had screwed up in the 1990's on September 11, 2002, they started talking about Pearl Harbor. Give me a break!
These things are not too hard for anyone to understand. The Western appeasement towards the Muslims, i.e. Muslim terrorists, has been a colossal failure. That's it.
But if that is so simple, why aren't there more voices shouting it from the rooftops? Why do we hear all kinds of nonsense conspiracy theories instead? The reason is that the Western governments, i.e. Washington D.C. and London, are doing everything to cover their tracks. And that brings us to their mistake number six: Iraq.
Does it make sense to make treaties with the Muslims? And I mean Muslims as Muslims, i.e. hardliners? I have been told that since the Muslims broke the Treaty of Hudaibiya in A.D 600 (or so), it has been permissible for the Muslims to break treaties concluded with infidels. So there is an explanation. And as everybody knows, spoken agreements are even worse. As Sam Goldwyn said: A spoken agreement is not worth the paper it is written on.
There may have been some Western-Muslim hanky-panky going on even before the final step, the Dayton Agreement, was taken. But the Dayton was the ultimate test. And indeed, the US had to bribe the Muslims to keep the agreement: it committed itself to provide military aid to the Bosnian Muslims, if the Muslims would just sign the damn agreement. Only, a couple of months ago, we learned from STRATFOR, behind a lot of white noise, that the Bosnians had forwarded the aid to Iraq. And even this admission is most likely a red herring: giving aid to Iraq may not be so bad, even if it is in flagrant violation of the arms embargoes, but it is the attitude of the Bosnians that is the problem. They were sure to know that the US would not be too happy with the military aid going to Iraq. In other words, if the Bosniaks were willing to do that, what would they not be willing to do against the American wishes? Yes, I mean Osama - the connection between him and the Bosniaks could even be deduced from the official STRATFOR version.
So, as bad as it was, the Bosnian military aid to Iraq had something positive about it: it would function as a red herring to divert the attention away from something infinitely worse. And luckily, the US can always count on the British government. In case the Bosnian-Iraqi connection might prove too much of an embarrassment to the US, the Brits could do their part and make a mountain out of a molehill, i.e. an international scandal out of the Bosnian Serb arms trade with Iraq.
It is here that the Milosevic trial proved useful - it was about time. Yes, that trial has been a fiaco, but that is good. So these clever bastards thought: Nobody knows what the trial is actually about, or at least, which charges would stick, so let us use this uncertainty to our advantage and link Milosevic to the Iraqi rearmament. We have a lot of leverage in the old CNN reports that Milosevic was cooperating with Saddam. To get more leverage, let us highlight the fact that Iraqi military attaches may have visited Milosevic's officials while he was in power.
In other words, the West screwed up and brought 9-11 on itself in the process, but why blame ourselves? We have Milosevic in The Hague. Go blame him. Nobody knows what the farce is about. That is one good thing about having farces: nobody knows what they are actually about.
A lot of other disadvantages can be turned to our advantage, too, thought the architects. So George W. Bush is dumb. Great! As soon as the people notice that there is no or little connection between Osama and Saddam, we can stage George as the culprit and blame his bad judgment. Yes, give us the conspiracy theories, we love them. The more George is seen fumbling, the more the previous administration and the driving force behind it will be whitewashed retroactively. Also, George's obsession with his father's outdated dream works perfectly, because it will wipe out the whole episode that went on between the Gulf War and the September 11 attacks, and this is the episode people must not see.
And then the titillating part. Saddam just might have weapons of mass destruction. There is even a greater possibility that the US will find them after they have installed their puppets in Baghdad, just like corpses were found in the Danube after Milosevic was gone. And in all likelihood the US will be successful in installing a new regime in Baghdad. If it doesn't, let us remember all these weapons we have. Why do we have all these weapons, if we don't use them?
But the best part is that there is so much truth in all that is said. Saddam is an a-hole. He would love to wipe out Israel. He has been pouring I don't know how many millions to the Palestinian terrorists and their families. And after all the necessary hard talk about Israel is over, would the people really relish the carnage of 6 million Israelis that could easily unleash?
Jari Nousiainen
Finland - Monday December 23, 2002 at 10:56 am
In an article “National Post Saturday Dec 21st) a British Journalist Paul Martin is suing the CBC and its reporters Neil Macdonald, Evan Dyer, Anna Maria Tremonti for defamation. Mr. Martin claims that the CBC and its reporters broadcast claims that Mr. Martin’s reports on the Hezbollah were deliberately concocted and untrue. Mr. Martin has quoted Sheik Hassan Nasrallah the Hezbollah terrorist leader as “threatening suicide attacks” world wide.Neil Macdonald, Evan Dyer, and in particular Anna Maria Tremonti have concocted many stories about the Balkan wars. There is no honor among thieves and reporters. What goes around comes around.
Walter Trkla
Kamloops BC
Canada - Monday December 23, 2002 at 12:25 pm
Good show Jari and bravo, Feliz Año Nuevo !
How is it in Serbo-Croat and in Finnish?
Gogol Charlemagne
Conn. USA - Monday December 23, 2002 at 12:26 pm
G C
USA - Monday December 23, 2002 at 12:35 pm
Hi Gogol. The same in Finnish? Merry Christmas is "hyvää joulua" and Happy New Year is "onnellista uutta vuotta". Well, you asked!Seems we are having a real white Christmas this year. And how is the weather in Belgrade? Just to keep up the conversation.
"Hallo Belgrade, your points please." You know, Yugoslavia has won the Eurovision song contest once, Finland has never been even close, even if it must have been participating since year zero of the post-WW2 era.
OK, that is not strictly relevant for this discussion, but remember what I said earlier.
J N
Finland - Monday December 23, 2002 at 1:04 pm
Let it to the Balkan (Turkish for mountain) when it comes to folklore!
Gogol Charlemagne
Conn. USA - Monday December 23, 2002 at 1:09 pm
Spring wheather here in Connecticut, the birds don't know what to do, Florida or Canada?
Gogol Charlemagne
Conn. USA - Monday December 23, 2002 at 2:01 pm
Jari, excelent. I believe sometimes there is nothing you can do about something but speak about it over and over again, and I also believe that it CAN have an effect (butterfly effect!?). Some did it successfully with their lies, with the truth it MUST be easier.Here is a link to an article by an American historian whose book "A People's History of the United States" I strongly recommened to those who are still in doubts.If you don't like reading thick historian books you can start at the end of 19. century.
http://www.progressive.org/dec02/zinn1202.html
Jagoš Mirkoviæ
Ljubljana
Slovenia - Tuesday December 24, 2002 at 10:28 am
Happy Holidays to all the posters and the readers. Jari, Gogol, Walter, Vera, Peter, others - thank you for the many, many informative posts, and thank you to JURIST for hosting the forum.
D S
US - Tuesday December 24, 2002 at 11:14 am
Merry Christmas (= Srecan Bozic) to all concerned. And a Happy New Year (=Srecna Nova godina). Here we have a slightly warmer, rainy spell after the sub-zero and snowy previous week and more snow is expected soon. So, perhaps the Orthodox Christmas (7 January - both Serbian and Russian Orthodox Churches have kept the Julian calendar) will be white. Anyhow, I'm a heathen myself but shall be compelled to attend some family events.Luckily, as an antidote to the latest stifling presence from Malaysia, we got some sharp, nonsense-removing Irish breeze - thank you, Mr Maher, for your valuable contribution and for addressing also my amateur interest in linguistics.
Vera Martinovic
Belgrade
Yugoslavia - Tuesday December 24, 2002 at 12:46 pm
Season Greetings and thanks to all for the engaging postings. Special thanks Vera, for on the spot analysis, you have the basics for a great 'script' putting all of this in context.18 F with a trace of snow in Wisconsin, USA.
J P
Wi, USA - Tuesday December 24, 2002 at 1:05 pm
We are at about 52 * N 123*W. Global Warming combined with El Nino the snow has not arrived and Christmas will not be white. I wish all of you a happy holiday and may the New Year be full of kindness and unselfishness.Jagoš thank you for the link to Howard Zinn’s article, however, we need to play this article forward in our address books for it may spark some who love knowledge to use their mind and speak out against injustice wherever it occurs.
Walter Trkla
Kamloops BC
Canada - Tuesday December 24, 2002 at 1:31 pm
Happy festivities for all!
The following article appeared on the NY Times yesterday:
"It's very hard to say how many bodies there really are," he said. Just 1,800 of the 4,500 body bags stacked in a morgue in the northern town of Tuzla contain a complete body, he said, adding, "The rest are just bits and pieces of co-mingled remains."
Gogol Charlemagne
Conn. USA - Tuesday December 24, 2002 at 2:18 pm
Happy Holidays to all of you.
Pero Peric
Canada - Tuesday December 24, 2002 at 5:24 pm
Click on the above.
Gogol Charlemagne
Conn. USA - Tuesday December 24, 2002 at 5:48 pm
"What's the point of having this superb military that you're always talking about if we can't use it?"Click above
Gogol Charlemagne
Conn. USA - Tuesday December 24, 2002 at 6:04 pm
Christmas is cancelled.Staff at some 430 British Red Cross charity shops have been ordered to take down Christmas decorations because they could offend Muslims! Out go Christmas trees with twinkling lights, Rudolph the red nosed reindeer who has a very shiny nose, Santa, his sleigh and presents along with scenes of the nativity. British Muslim are bewildered especially those traders who have stocked their shop shelves with such artefacts for sale.
This edict by Mr Scrooge of the British Red Cross (-: soon to be renamed the British Red Splodge :-) seems to have overlooked the fact that for the vast majority in Britain Christmas has become a secular or pagan celebration of the new god Mammon. Fir trees, reindeers and Santa Claus were not much in evidence in Bethlehem in the year dot.
for the third year running has also been cancelled in Kosovo for some quarter of million Orthodox Christians exiled and ghettoised by Tony Blair’s ‘moral’ campaign. It would be nice to hear a “Sorry” from Anglican Christian Tony and Catholic Christian Cherie for their fellow Orthodox Christians whom they have so cruelly used and abused.
I shall make it my New Year resolution to pester Human Rights Watch to devote the same high energy, gallons of printers’ ink and Gigabytes of ASCII code to the plight of Kosovo’s minority populations as they did in support of the KLA’s terror campaign.
Peter Taylor
Herts/UK - Tuesday December 24, 2002 at 7:01 pm
Peter,
The Wall Street Journal says today Christmas is a judeoa-christian value.
No comment.
Gogol Charlemagne
Conn. USA - Tuesday December 24, 2002 at 10:04 pm
Happy holidays from NYC.To D Jovanovic; bad choice for an example of Croatian writers that you can easily understand; both Simo Matavulj and Ivana Brlic Mazuranic were Serbs from Croatia.
Miroslav Radulovic
USA - Wednesday December 25, 2002 at 1:13 pm
Thank you Mr. Radulovic. Would you believe it! I did not know that Matavilj and Mazuranic were Serbs. But they wrote in what would be considered Croatian , didn’t they? How about Pauci and Gospoda Glembajevi? Is that CRoatian?
D. Jovanovic
USA - Wednesday December 25, 2002 at 4:13 pm
Two Men Killed in Bombings in Macedonia and Kosovo
Gogol Charlemagne
Conn. USA - Thursday December 26, 2002 at 1:31 am
I just came across this picture, it may fit the history of Yugoslavia. http://www.webwm.com/kosovo/i/cartoon.gifI recently visited the IWPR website and it seems that they have once again brought up the issue with the freezer trucks and once again QUOTING the crime magazine!!
Dan A.
Canada - Thursday December 26, 2002 at 11:44 am
I am in the midst of reading the book by Sir Michael Rose, British general in charge of the UN troops in Bosnia 1994-1995. The book is titled:” Fighting for Peace”, and is published in 1998 i.e BEFORE the NATO bombing of Yugoslavia. Anybody reading this eyewitness account from the highest and best informed position of the true situation in Bosnia and particularly Sarjevo, will deduce how deceitful and duplicitous Bosnian Muslim government was.The proposal that the shelling of Sarajevo should end by a seize fire an making Sarajevo demilitarized is described thusly:
“Handing over the security of Sarajevo to the UN would also reduce the possibility of any financial gain that control of all movements in and out of the city generated for party leaders,( Bosnian Muslim ).In the view of some extremist in the SDA, it was better to keep shells falling on their people in the hope that the US would one day enter the war on their side, and to conceal this inhuman tragedy they continued to blame the world for allowing the “slow-motion” genocide to take place in their country.”
Being written by a soldier and not a politician this book is a powerful proof how the whole Hague “crime accusation” are perverted and explained to the world.
D. Jovanovic
USA - Friday December 27, 2002 at 12:47 pm
The Moderator apologizes for the recent disruption to this forum. Irrelevant postings and responses to them have been removed. Technical problems in Pittsburgh prevented earlier intervention.
JURIST Moderator - Friday December 27, 2002 at 1:07 pm
Gogol,Note the article's omission that at least 600 of the 1,500 bodies id'd were soldiers of the 28th BiH killed in a fair fight according to forensic testimony at the UN Tribunal (Krsti hearings)
Also note that article omits key facts regarding military status and id of the remaining 900 bodies id'd.
Article also omits key fact that most of remaining un id'd bodies were found in loyalist and moderate villages in which Nasir Oric's death squads operated.
Finally note that article fails to mention that full and complete forensic reports have yet to be released. These reporst continue to be supressed by the HumWarriors over at the Tribunal.
A.P. Vucelic
NY
NY - Friday December 27, 2002 at 1:34 pm
The last vigorous attack by the verbal-hacker or by the verbal-computer virus just tells me how important this discussion group has become and that certain GO-s, NGO-s and individuals are desperate to get us muted.
Our friend Mr. Sorosh has deep routs in Malaise. Few years ago he almost caused Malaise economy to collapse. When asked about this in one of his interviews he said: "I accept that what I did is morally wrong but at the time there was no law in Malaise that would prevent me to do it. Malaise now has changed its laws and the same thing can not happen any more. I am glad that I helped them realize that." Gogol has recently posted several interesting posts about this "humanitarian" who openly admits that what is morally wrong is acceptable, since it is not illegal. The whole New World Order intervention in the Balkans is defended on the grounds that what they did is "illegal but legitimate". These two concepts immoral but legal and illegal but legitimate are products of the deconstruction effort run by the empire. Unfortunately they are the pillars of the New World Order legislation, justice and economy.
We also know that Mr. Sorosh contributed significant amounts of money towards financing of the ICTY. No wonder that empire is striking back!
Moderator thanks for protecting the integrity of the discussion.
Pera Bora
Ottawa
Canada - Friday December 27, 2002 at 4:35 pm
Pera,
I know you mean Malaysia when you write Malaise which is French for Malay and disconfort, uneasiness, sickish feeling, indisposition, general negative feeling.
I hope you don't mind my remarks.
A.P. Vucelic
Years have gone by and the money to achieve a political goal is coming to an end, and so is the urgency of the political goal. Now it is just necessary for the Great Powers to keep the region from uniting again and I am affraid this can be achieved with very little effort. It is un-thinkable to see all this NATO military presence in the old Yugoslavia unchallenged.
Gogol Charlemagne
Conn. USA - Friday December 27, 2002 at 4:43 pm
Soros is banned in Malaysia and will not dare to set foot in Thai-land where he is seen as the man who brought the country's economy down.
It is interesting to see the devices these international especulators have used to "soften" the social-economic ground of many countries for the investors of the international community to see the opportunities for investment.
The French have convicted him and I would like to see other countries doing the same: a little bit of INTERNATIONAL JUSTICE will do no harm!
Gogol Charlemagne
Conn. USA - Friday December 27, 2002 at 4:45 pm
Gogol, thanks for correcting me. Unfortunately I am a lousy speller. Today I decided not to look into the dictionary and I picked whatever spell checker offered for misspelled name of Malaysia.
Pera Bora
Ottawa
Canada - Friday December 27, 2002 at 4:59 pm
English is not my native language and I wish people would have corrected my mistakes over the years instead of passing them in silence. The fact is that correcting is an effort and most people don't care and perhaps they should not but yet I think truly a land of inmigrants should have a more sensible attitude towards the linguistic problems of adaptation.
I wish the EU would have adopted, there still is time, Latin as the lingua franca of the Union.
Gogol Charlemagne
Conn. USA - Saturday December 28, 2002 at 3:39 am
Soros gave the same excuse "immoral but legitimate" in one his books for breaking the English pound (which was what made him famous). Of course he doesn't go too far to explain his understanding of the relationship between morality and law, just far enough to give the impression of being intellectually honest. That way he can push forward his hybrid values of "open society", which only boil down to furthering the free movement of capital in the world. ICTY must be one of the organs to safeguard the values which the free movement of capital requires.Now that you mention it, it is interesting to consider the reverse side of the same maxim. Soros says what he did was "immoral but legitimate". Conversely, the NATO bombings were "illegitimate but justified" (or whatever the accepted formula is these days). Clearly there is some deconstruction going on here.
The Far Eastern country, of which I dare not mention the name, contributed heavily to the ICTY when its economy was in full bloom. (Maybe Soros had something to do with that!) Maybe the purchase of plots of land in Northern Albania took place about that time. However, now the economy has collapsed, the desolate economic situation gives rise to extremist movements. Maybe the country in question then used the leverage it had created in the Balkans during the fat years to further extremist movements there during the lean years. At least the government of that country has gone out of its way in its recent official statement to support (or "understand") the activities (or "anger") of some extremist movements. However, the rationalization the specific country used to support the tribunal escapes me. Certainly this country had much more extensive human rights violations going on on its own soil than on the other side of the globe. And after all is said and done, I believe that what happened in Kosovo was admirably summed up by Ahtisaari in his memoirs. According to the information that he had, the anti-terrorist squad of the PJP (Posebne jednice policije, or something like that) or the Special Police Units were accused of human rights abuses. In regard to the sweeping accusations of genocide etc., which he mentioned in the preface - written after Milosevic was ousted - he has no specifics. I guess it just sounded good (at least at the time).
Pera, I agree with you that this discussion is becoming more important, and there are some circles that would like to get it muted. However, I am not sure if we are dealing here with some organization or some individual fruitcake - or both.
I guess I am leaping from one subject to another, but for some reason I have the urge to quote words that are ascribed to George Bernard Shaw. The quotation was read at the funeral of the South African journalist Schalk Pienaar:
"If you don't say a thing in an irritating way, you must just as well not say it at all, since nobody will trouble themselves about anything that does not trouble them. They killed Socrates because he was a human gadfly."
There is a fine line between that kind of insight and the kind of disruptive behaviour we have witnessed. Some people think it is just as noble to bring something down as it was to build the whole structure in the first place, so the one who destroys something that others have built deserves just as much praise as those who built it. And under that flag of noble causes there is nothing else than a cheap way to get attention. I am doing my best not to use the word deconstruction here again, although I think a great deal of that "school of thought" is driven by the same cheap variety of human vanity. What we have witnessed earlier in this discussion could be written off as "cheap cynicism which passes for wisdom", as Dostoyevski would have called it. This time, however, the attack is demonic.
Jari Nousiainen
Finland - Saturday December 28, 2002 at 3:40 am
J N
Finland - Saturday December 28, 2002 at 7:00 am
Some Asian realities:
HERE
Gogol Charlemagne
Conn. USA - Saturday December 28, 2002 at 10:38 am
“Some people cut off their toe to fit their shoes while others ride the tiger”. There is a very interesting article on anti-Semitism, a topic recently discussed by this forum, at emperorsclothes1@aol.com. I am not sure who asked the question, “Who does Plavsic speak for?” and “What is the relationship between the Serbs and the Jews”? The first question was not tackled by any Serbs on this forum while there were some attempts to look at the second question.I think Plavsic speaks for Plavsic. As I said in a previous post she is nuttier than a fruitcake but if I am wrong and she did participate in expelling innocent people from their homes she needs to pay the price. When those who saw injustice being done and said nothing need to look into a mirror and realize “that man must change himself before society can change”. Muslims, Serbs and Croats all need to look at themselves and if they don’t nothing will change.
Does Milosevic speak for me? Yes, on many issues, because, he sees the same injustices that I see. His crime in the eyes of NATO was that he wanted to protect the nation. The first injustice that he has addressed is the NATO involvement in the breakup of Yugoslavia. I have no problem with a United Europe but I do not subscribing to Stalinist model of breaking eggs to make an omelet at least not someone else’s eggs.
As to the second question Jews vs. Serbs , I think there are some similarities. They both suffer from a persecution complex and rightly so since both experienced centuries of persecution. The reasons wee different but the results were the same. As to Rubin, Albright and Kissinger are they any bigger whores than their servants Djindjic, Labus the nose and Djukanovic the Mafiosi???? U svakoj psenici ima kukolja” or “In every wheat field there are weeds.
Walter Trkla
Kamloops BC
Canada - Saturday December 28, 2002 at 10:52 am
Does the last paragraph in this article imply the reason for the breakup of the Yugoslavs was Socialism? Maybe there is more truth here...is this why Serbs were the enemy of the world?U.S. to unfreeze $100 million in Yugoslav assets Associated Press
WASHINGTON - The United States acted Friday to unfreeze about $100 million in Yugoslav assets in a sign of improving relations with the Yugoslavia's reformist leaders.
Two months ago, the Bush administration forgave two-thirds of Yugoslavia's debt, or $353.7 million.
The frozen assets were blocked in 1992 in support of U.N. sanctions against Yugoslavia for the Balkan country's role in bloodshed in the republics breaking away from the socialist state. The goodwill move takes effect in 90 days.
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I believe in one of my posts I did point out a risk of having obvious pseudonyms on the forum which could eventually lead to unballanced individuals rambling on about nothing or trying to shut down the forum.
Kathryn Love
SJC
USA - Saturday December 28, 2002 at 11:18 am
Vera,
I briefly read a rather illogical story about the British Ambassador incident at a Serbian Orthodox Church in Belgrade when a number of Protestants together with the ambassador tried to celebrate 24 December and was turned away by a number of worshipers asking them to leave. It sounds like a serious provocation to me.
Another topic,
I wonder why the trial of collaborator Moncilio Perisic is now postponed while the Americans release partially the seized Yugoslav assets.
Gogol Charlemagne
Conn. USA - Saturday December 28, 2002 at 11:19 am
G C
USA - Saturday December 28, 2002 at 11:20 am
Ok so I see someone tries to make me sleep. OK so comment was made by Serb posters on my English but I really cannot understand relavance of the lady's post above. It shows the point that it is not important if psedonym used or not if somebody wants to make us bored. I think point made about Serbs and Jews is interesting but isnt just Serbs with persecution complex but Croats too or more clear inferiority complex that makes them so extreme. I do not agree with Vera again (maybe she will understand me this time) that Mesic is some kind of crazy anti Serb monster who hate Serb genes, think about that, why would the man mix his genes with his Serbian wife to have children if he thought that true. Mesic also one of the more fair Croat politicians even if I dont like him so much.Walter Trka about Sloba. I made mistake one time of voting for Sloba but never again. Everybody is making mistake if they believe that Milosevic believes in anything. He never did. Believe me he would be happy to be still President of Yugoslavia and friend of the West. Milosevic found himself in bad situation during time of Kosovo and chose to become antihero after that. Remember we have whole ten years to judge his rule and what he did. What he says at Hague now is another thing.
Plavsic confession is worth discusion specially with strange discussers with boring topics. If somebody post her confession or I will maybe find it...
Davor Markovic
Sombor
Yug - Saturday December 28, 2002 at 11:30 am
What I was reading the incident at church was provokation by group of right wing people. They stopped Patriach Pavle and British Ambassador from going inside. They not worshippers but protestors, nobody know who they are. Some newspaper made connection with right wing groups but I dont know. They were shouting about Catholics should not come inside and how they dont want reunification with Orthodox and Catholic church. I do not understand who these people are and why they do this. One of them even made threat against ambassador. All of this is very illogical protestant and catholic is not same church is it?
D M
Sombor
Yug - Saturday December 28, 2002 at 3:22 pm
Hello Jari you have my sympathies when dealing with signora Yi Ling Lu; i thought one was supposed to ignore her / it? I don´t, but may be you do, know when the tribunal ajourns again ? And, by the way, a prosperous and a healthy and a happy new year to all of you here on the plenum! Me? I am getting tired and confused amidst the pros and cos regarding the serbian and Milosevic´ responsibility and guilt during the wars of Yu, and their accountability thereafter -- add some vine and dine to it -- and i am not asking for help, either. Did he ever say i am sorry if ...
a very real Nebojsa Matic
Oslo - Saturday December 28, 2002 at 3:26 pm
Walter: Plavsic was not the only one expelling innocent folks from their homes, if indeed she did do this. All three sides were doing the same. I watched the news throughout the time of the Balkan Civil Wars. The congressmen who went over to the war front all came back with the same observation, “all sides committing atrocities.” Gingrich most notably stands out in my mind when he said, “They are all committing atrocities, and the Muslims and Croats are responsible for killing more of the UN personnel then the Serbs are.” The big question is, “Why” are the Serbs the only ones being tried? What happened to the congressmen who blamed all three? I remember when the Croats turned on the Bosnian Muslims and when these two were fighting, the Croats ran from the Bosnian Muslims to the Serbs for protection. Does anyone remember that?The whole question here is when was it decided that only the Serbs would pay the price.
Could it be that the Muslims are protected by Saudi Arabia and the Croats by the Vatican?The Vatican is very aware of the war crimes committed against the Serbs during the Second World War,yet they never condemned Croats. The Catholic Pope said the Serbs should be bombed in Kosovo. Interesting?
As for the comparison between the Jews and the Serbs, I find this rather strange. In the United States most never knew what a Serb was. Not even teachers. If you said you were Serb, they thought you meant Syrian. I know this to be true from experience. All I ever heard about a Serb when anyone knew what one was, was good things, “kindness” and “consideration.” All the demonization of the Serbs took place during the Balkan Civil Wars, maybe because the Serbs had the wrong friend, Russia, or did not have the right friends, the Vatican, and/or Saudi Arabia.
We all have our own opinions as to what happened here. I only know that throughout my lifetime up until the Wars, not one unpleasant word was ever said about the Serbs.
About pseudonyms. If you are doing nothing wrong, give your own name.
Kathryn Love
SJC
USA - Saturday December 28, 2002 at 5:09 pm
Nebojsa Matic, if you be one and the same thanks for http://www.antiwar.com/malic/m-col.html
Ian Davis
Toronto
Ontario, Canada - Saturday December 28, 2002 at 5:27 pm
Kathryn I know very well that all sides committed acts of violence against each other. In fact we all know who committed the acts first but two wrongs don’t make a right.Six month before the JNA advanced against Dubrovnik all the monuments in the old town were sandbagged and plywood was placed on windows. JNA units were attacked in Split and many other cities throughout Yugoslavia. The world knows who did the attacking and Mesic supported the lawlessness. We all know who worships at the feet of Zvonko Busic the highjacker and killer of police officers in New York.
You are right, Kathryn when you say that the Serbs did not have a patron. To some it matters not that you are a “son of a Bee” as long as you are my “son of a Bee”.
Why prosecute and blame the Serbs for the events that unfolded is not a mystery. Serbs wanted Yugoslavia to remain united the others including NATO wanted what they have today. Prosecuting them justifies the partition. No matter how much the Krajina, Bosnian, and Kosovo Serbs demand justice international propaganda has painted them as undeserving of justice. Every NATO attack followed some atrocity attributed to the Serbs. Each atrocity was a fabrication by NATO and their minions. Why would the Serbs invite NATO to attack them at the time when the next straw would break their back?
Kathryn my mother by adoption was born in Butte Montana (the home of Evil Kenevil) of Serbian parents. She is 92 and has lived in Canada since 1942. She never took out Canadian citizenship and continues to wave the stars and stripes. In America immigrants are treated as Americans first while in Canada you are from somewhere and than you are a Canadian. When she hears “God Bless America” you can see tears in her eyes. But during the last ten years I have heard her say many times, “That son of a bitch Clinton “ or “That son of a bitch Bush”. Does that make her an anti American? No, but even she can see the injustice committed by the American leadership in the name of the American people.
So why do I criticize America? I am not anti American, I just think that American foreign policy is wrong and that is what I criticize. War is big business and that is more important to many Americans than justice. American leadership speaks about justice but denies it to others.
Walter Trkla
Kamloops BC
Canada - Saturday December 28, 2002 at 5:29 pm
Somehow think that Matic is not Malic. Malic would not like to consider pro's and con's of Milosevic resposibility so on. Some of what he says is interesting but from very fixed position (and from very long distance).I found translation but its not my one so if its wrong in some place its not my fault.
Mr. President, your Honours, Madame Prosecutor, counsel I am thankful to have this opportunity to speak today. Nearly two years ago, I came before this Tribunal, having been charged with participating in crimes against other human beings and even against humanity itself. I came for two reasons: to confront these charges and to spare my people - for it was clear that they would pay the price of any refusal to come. I have now had time to examine these charges and, together with my lawyers, conduct our own investigation and evaluation. I have now come to the belief and accept the fact that many thousands of innocent people were the victims of an organized, systematic effort to remove Muslims and Croats from the territory claimed by Serbs. At the time, I easily convinced myself that this was a matter of survival and self defence. In fact, it was more - our leadership of which I was a necessary part - led an effort which victimized countless innocent people. Explanations of self defence and survival offer no justification. By the end, it was said, even among our own people, that in this war, we had lost our nobility. The obvious questions become if this truth is now self evident, why did I not see it earlier and how could our leaders and those who followed have committed such acts? The answer to both questions is, I believe, fear - a blinding fear that led to an obsession, especially for those of us for whom the Second World War was living memory, that Serbs would never again allow themselves to become victims. In this, we in the leadership violated the most basic duty of every human being - the duty to restrain one's self and to respect the human dignity of others. We were committed to do whatever was necessary to prevail. Although I was repeatedly informed of allegations of cruel and inhuman conduct against non-Serbs - I refused to accept them or even to investigate. I, in fact, immersed myself in addressing the suffering of the war's innocent Serb victims. This daily work confirmed, in my mind, that we were in a struggle for our very survival and that in this struggle, the international community was our enemy. And so I simply denied these charges, making no effort to investigate. I remained secure in my belief that Serbs were not capable of such acts. In this obsession to never again become victims, we had allowed ourselves to become victimizers. You have heard both yesterday and today the litany of suffering that this produced. I have accepted responsibility for my part in this. This responsibility is mine and mine alone. It does not extend to other leaders who have a right to defend themselves. It certainly should not extend to our Serbian people, who have already paid a terrible price for our leadership. The knowledge that I am responsible for such human suffering and for soiling the character of my people will always be with me. There is a justice which demands a life for each innocent life; a death for each wrongful death. It is, of course, not possible for me to meet the demands of such justice. I can only do what is in my power and hope that it is of some benefit - that having come to the truth, to speak it, and to accept responsibility. This will, I hope, help the Muslim, Croat, and even Serb victims not to be overtaken with bitterness, which often becomes hatred and is, in the end, self destructive. As for my own people, I have referred today to their character. I think it therefore important to explain what I am speaking of. There now stands in the centre of Belgrade, a great domed church, still under construction - a construction begun in 1935. Our people have persisted in building this church as a monument to a man who, more than any other, formed the character of the Serbian people - the great Sava. The path he followed was marked by self restraint and respect for all others, a great diplomat who gained the respect of his people and the world around them, a man whose character has become deeply ingrained in the Serbian people. It is the path and example of Sava that the great Serbian leaders have followed even in our own times demonstrating a noble endurance and dignity even in the most difficult circumstances. One need only point to Bishop Artemije Radosavljevic who to this very day is a voice crying for justice in what has become, for Serbs, the wilderness of Kosovo. Tragically our leaders, including myself, abandoned this path in the last war. I think it is clear that I have separated myself from those leaders - but too late. Yet, this leadership, without shame, continues to seek the loyalty and support of our people. It is done by provoking fears and speaking half truths in order to convince our people the world is against us. But, by now, the fruits of this leadership are clear - graves, refugees, isolation and bitterness against the world which spurns us because of these very leaders. I have been urged that this is not the time or the place to speak this truth - we must wait until others also accept responsibility for their deeds. But, I believe that there is no place and that there is no time where it is not appropriate to speak the truth. I believe that we must put our own house in order - others will have to examine themselves and their own conduct. We must live in the world and not in a cave. The world is always imperfect and often unjust, but as long as we preserve our identity and our character, we have nothing to fear. As for me, it is the members of this Trial Chamber that have been given the responsibility to judge. You must strive in your judgement to find whatever justice this world can offer not only for me but also for the innocent victims of this war. I will, however, make one appeal and that is to the Tribunal itself - judges, prosecutors, investigators - that you do all within your power to bring justice to all sides. In doing this you may be able to accomplish the mission for which this Tribunal has been created.
Davor Markovic
Sombor
Yug - Saturday December 28, 2002 at 10:00 pm
Mrs. Plavsic states that “it was clear that they would pay the price of any refusal”.Her refusal to testify. She is of course speaking of the Serbian people. She claims that innocent people paid a price by her inaction during the war and yet now she prostrates herself in front of a Tribunal that is punishing innocent people just as she did.My claim and the claim of most of the persons who post here is that all sides organized a systematic removal from the territory they claimed and yet only the Serbs are blamed . I stated in a previous post that two wrongs don’t make a right. She states “I easily convinced myself that this was a matter of survival and self defense”. I do not excuse victimization of others but I can understand why she or any other victim would fear extermination. As a young man of 20 I walked through a two graveyard in Lika where many who were buried there died on the same day. In Herzegovina, north of Bileca , there is a Karst pit (Jama) where over a hundred innocent Serbian people found their resting place at the hands of the Ustase.
She also states that “Explanations of self defense and survival offer no justification”. She is absolutely correct but tell that to someone who was expelled from his home by the other side or whose family was massacred jut for being Orthodox.
Plavsic also states “I believe, fear - a blinding fear that led to an obsession, especially for those of us for whom the Second World War was living memory, that Serbs would never again allow themselves to become victims.” When one sees a young Macedonial soldier in Split pulled out of his military vehicle and his throat cut for the entire world to see the message is clear.
Plavsic states that “Although I was repeatedly informed of allegations of cruel and inhuman conduct against non-Serbs” and she did not respond. She as a leader was derelict in her duty and should have been removed. Leaders are supposed to lead not follow. She excuses her conduct when she states that “In this obsession to never again become victims, we had allowed ourselves to become victimizers”.
She claims that “There is a justice which demands a life for each innocent life; a death for each wrongful death. It is, of course, not possible for me to meet the demands of such justice.” She had that power as a leader to provide justice but she lacked the iron will to impose martial law in the area under her control. She claims fear as a factor in her inaction and this is understandable but it is not an excuse.
Plavsic than compares the plight of the Serbs in Kosovo by saying “One need only point to Bishop Artemije Radosavljevic who to this very day is a voice crying for justice in what has become, for Serbs, the wilderness of Kosovo”. At this point why did she not ask the international community to act and provide justice for the Serbs of Kosovo? Why did she not ask the international community to provide justice for the Serbs of Krajina?
She accuses Milosevic indirectly as a leader who is “provoking fears and speaking half truths in order to convince our people the world is against us”. Excuse me Mrs. Plavsic did the Croats get bombed? Did the Muslims get bombed? Did the KLA get bombed? You claim that they did the same thing that you did, so why give them guns to bomb you if the world was not against you? No, Serbia was bombed, the only region where all the other ethnic groups found a sanctuary.
Yes Mrs Plavsic I also “believe that we must put our own house in order” but not where NATO is judge jury and the prosecution. The Serbian people had a history where (alija te tuzi , alija ti sudi) the imam charges you and at the same time judges you. She concludes the above comment by saying that “others will have to examine themselves and their own conduct”. If the Tribunal is justice for you Mrs. Plavsic than it should also be justice for those you see as equally guilty on the other side.
Plavsic continues by saying that “The world is always imperfect and often unjust, but as long as we preserve our identity and our character, we have nothing to fear”. Yes character and identity is very important but where were you as a leader? Do you really believe that what is in the government in Belgrade today has anything to do with honor, justice and identity? Whores have more honor for they only sell themselves.
Plavsic than goes on and tries and exculpate herself in front of her people by asking the “judges, prosecutors, investigators - that you do all within your power to bring justice to all sides.” Ten years later and the Serbs are the only ones paying the price for acts started by others. The justice, Mrs. Plavsic, will be the same as sixty years ago where the victims once again are victimized.
Walter Trkla
Kamloops BC
Canada - Saturday December 28, 2002 at 10:25 pm
Del Ponte is not satisfied, she told the court "nothing has changes, She is not co-operating.."
Now, several days later and yet another failed election, we learn the Americans are giving back some of the embargoed assets, Djinjic is boasting about the need to accept The Hague drawling over the possibility of handing over another political opponent, the stoping of the trial of spy Moncilio Perisic, the lifting by the Serb government of the secret status of ICTY requested documents, the audacity of the English ambassador perhaps representing the Anglican Church of England attempting to entice the cooperation of the Orthodox Church of Serbia, is it Vichy or is it that something is rotten in the Kingdom of Denmark ?
Gogol Charlemagne
Conn. USA - Saturday December 28, 2002 at 10:25 pm
Davor Markovic, Stipe Mesic's wife is not Serbian, she is Ukrainian, or at least so he said to the Croat media. Whatever the case, you can not take into account his wife "being" Serbian, either she isn't and that's just a lie to cover up his bigotry or she truly is and he is ashamed of it and lies about it. Think about it. On another note, the protesters in Belgrade did not make comments about "reunification of Orthodox and Catholic churches" but rather about 'Unijacenje' which is Uniatism or the creation of Greek Catholics that is forcing Orthodox to accept the supremacy (and ifallibility of the pope), the use of unleavened bread, the existence of purgatory and the notorious filioque.
Igor Jaramaz
Canada - Saturday December 28, 2002 at 11:39 pm
Walter, sorry if I gave you the impression that I thought you were Anti American. I did not want to imply this at all. I was trying to point out that in America Serbs were never persecuted because most did not know what a Serb was. I can assure you that not even teachers knew. It was really quite exasperating when some were just flabbergasted if they heard “Serbian“ and nine times out of ten thought it was Syrian. If you were excused from school for the Serbian Orthodox Christmas, they were just baffled. Almost no one in the United States knows anything about Orthodoxy.They have no idea that it is a Christian religion.What I was trying to relate to you is while the Serbs were persecuted in Europe over the years, this was not so in the United States. If they did know what a Serb was they usually praised them.However, the Jews, were not persecuted in the United States, but unlike the Serbs everyone knows what a Jew is and sometimes in describing them the language gets heated. I am not saying anything against the Jews that is not already known. As you said, “there are weeds growing in wheat fields.”
The Balkan Civil Wars changed the Serb reputation. The Serbs were thrown to the wolves. I doubt that Clinton, or the United States government had anything against them. It just served their purpose.
I ,like your Mother, called Clinton many names. This does not make me anti American. Thousands and thousands of Serbian American families contributed to the success of the United States. Our Serbian American families served the United States in peacetime and in war. Most of us just ask “why?” why would you bomb those who always loved you, who were always your friends? Those who went through so much suffering?We will never be convinced that Serbia was wrong. Our faith tells us that in years to come younger historians will examine the Balkan Civil Wars and rewrite the history in truth.
As for Plavsic, she is a mystery or a mess, I do not know which. Did she do this only to get the lynch mob off her neck? I would not like to be her. She is a woman who sold her country out, and therefore, she has no soul. She is a shell.
Kathryn Love
SJC
USA
