 MILOSEVIC TRIAL DISCUSSION ARCHIVE |
| JURIST >> LEGAL NEWS - WORLD LAW >> Discussion >> Milosevic Trial Discussion Archive |
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Former Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic is on trial for war crimes in the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia at The Hague. This marks the first time a head of state has been personally prosecuted before an international criminal court.
Is Slobodan Milosevic getting a fair trial?
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- discussion archive
- Sunday December 28, 2003 at 4:40 am
IN WESLEY CLARK'S 'OPINION'...Slobodan Milosevic "was essentially the motivating force and the guiding force in most if not all of the issues and activities in former Yugoslavia during this period both in war and in peace. And...he chose to...admit...that he...had influence, power, if not control over the Bosnian Serbs. And that is... the essence of what I'm stating here..." (1).
I...asked him: "If you have so much influence over these (Bosnian) Serbs, how could you have allowed General Mladic to have killed all those people at Srebrenica?"
And he...said, "Well, General Clark, I warned him not to do this, but he didn't listen to me."
And...I viewed that as an admission that he had foreknowledge of Srebrenica...an acknowledgement of (his) foreknowledge of what was going to happen at Srebrenica..." (2).
This is supposed to be 'evidence'?
Or just the opinions and 'views' of a ret. NATO-General, Wesley Clark? It seems to me, that even if it were not "the wrong essence" or partly "a blatant lie", one could not possibly draw the conclusion that Milosevic knew "everything", - or even that he "knew" about a plan for Srebrenica...
Now, - what do you think?
(1) Transcripts, 30478, line 21 - 30479, line 4
(2) Transcripts, 30494, line 25 - 30495, line 20
Godfred Louis-Jensen
Copenhagen
D E N M A R K - Sunday December 28, 2003 at 1:35 pm
Truly political power comes out of the barrel of gun!
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La - Sunday December 28, 2003 at 3:23 pm
Mr. Jovanovic you for sure remember the old Serbian proverb: "Babi se snilo ono sto joj je milo." (A grand mom is dreaming about what she likes best.)
Pera Bora
Ottawa
Canada - Sunday December 28, 2003 at 3:33 pm
Hague court clears Belgrade of non-cooperation charge
B92, Sunday Dec. 28" THE HAGUE, BELGRADE -- Sunday - Hague Tribunal judges trying Slobodan Milosevic have dismissed a prosecution demand that the court order Belgrade to provide access to state archives.
The prosecution had also called for the court to report Belgrade to the UN Security Council for failing to meet obligations to the court.
Ruling on the demand, the judges said that the Belgrade authorities had done all in their power to respond to requests fro documents.
Foreign Ministry representative Vladimir Djeric said today that the decision was a landmark.
He told B92 that it resolved the dispute over cooperation with the Tribunal. "
Could this be a theatrical attempt of the court to dispel the well-deserved charge of anti-Serb bias? Most probably not. It looks like Carla is really mad for not having her rear kissed by even the (outgoing) quisling Serbian regime. The judges still have a sense of reality and have avoided (for now) the ridicule to which Carla has been trying to lead them.
Pythagoras Crotoniatis
Greece- Sunday December 28, 2003 at 5:17 pm
This is the first peace of good news regarding the trial of Mr. Milosevic. I think that the dis-honorable judges have decided that enough is enough and that they do not want to go hunting ghosts for the rest of their lives. My guess is that if they have accepted the position of the prosecution the next request would be to postpone the end of the presentation of the prosecution case until S&C comply with this latest request of the prosecution i.e. indefinitively. If the judges were clever they will dismiss the case at this point since it was total failure. This will not happen since judges until now have actively participated and contributed to this mockery of justice. As Mr. May is underlining very frequently everything is subject to the interpretation of the dis-honorable judges. They now have to focus very hard to dis-allow proper and effective defense of Mr. Milosevic. This is there only chance.
Pera Bora
Ottawa
Canada- Sunday December 28, 2003 at 5:35 pm
The empire is worried that any more pressure is going to increase the SRS and SPS support in YU. So they now have to ease off a little. That's all.
Apart from that, the job is done, they have what they want and it's now just a matter of keeping it quiet. They have to wind up the prosecutions by 2004 according to Russian and US bickering in the UN. No point opening any more cans of worms.
The "judges" will decide no matter what, and they have plenty of closed sessions and secret witnesses to decide whatever they want, no matter what Milosevic brings up. They simply rule it as irrelevant and restrict what he can bring up so that it suits them.
They have turned the whole thing into a complete farce, turning it into an even more complete farce will not matter.
After all, they have the greatest propaganda weapon in world history to give it a semblance of humanitarianism and justice for the oppressed people of the world... the "free", "democratic" media of the West!
In the end, Nazi Germany did OK with their version of the same thing. Today's Germany, although not Nazi, runs Europe.
Why wouldn't the New World Order get away with the same strategy on a more global scale? After all, there is no Russia to kick their ass like they kicked Nazi Germany's. In fact, there's no opposition at all. Not even International Law!
David
Oztralia- Sunday December 28, 2003 at 8:42 pm
This evening at the dinner with my American friends we discussed elections in Serbia which have a rather predictable result. Of course the question raised was how can Serbs vote for the war criminal?In a debate which ensued I advocated that Milosevic is a criminal but not for the crimes he is accused in the Hague. At that moment one of my American friends said :
"Yes, he is guilty of not defending Krajina!"
I was rather dumbfounded. How come this American feels that Milosevic should have intervened militarily and attacked Croatia at the time of the operation “Storm”?
I wonder what the rational people on this Forum think of that.
Would a Serbian intervention in Krajina resulted in an all out war with NATO heavy participation or would it have been easy for Serbs to trash the Croats completely?
D. Jovanovic, Physicist
USA- Sunday December 28, 2003 at 9:17 pm
Terms of Endearment“Get your fucking face off of TV”
bawled General Hugh Shelton, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, down the telephone line to General Clark during Nato’s attack upon Serbia.
Shortly after the end of Nato’s aerial war against the Serbs in support of Islamist terror Clark was fired having exasperated the Pentagon with his grandstanding loudmouth displays, leaks to the media and routine violation of the military chain of command.
During Clark’s recent appearance in the Hague court, supposedly to give ‘evidence’ for the prosecution, Milosevic reminded everyone of Clark’s less than distinguished record. Consequently Clark spent the next half hour or so reading out glowing tributes to himself from fellow war criminals Cohen and Albright. Obsequious Judge May fawningly indulged these ‘political speeches’ while rudely condemning and refusing such alleged attempts by Milosevic.
The labyrinthine legal contortions effected to constrain Milosevic’s cross-examination of Clark’s ‘evidence’ will become a classical example of show trial technique. Historians will ridicule them as examples of the self-mesmerising philosophy of the court’s promoters such as Blair who is fluent in nonsense. The pillars of justice, truth and impartiality, being temporarily subjugated to this current self-serving philosophical fad of ‘relative truth’, which cannot last in a truly civilised world: Nato/KLA speak truth: Serbs speak lies.
Amice curia member Kay’s intervention on behalf of Milosevic was a model of sanity in this otherwise Hague-Court world of madness.
Yet another year goes by with yet another del Ponte broken promise to indict KLA leaders “by the end of the year”. Surely she has now run out of excuses and credibility? Authentic photographs of grinning KLA terrorists - now Kosovo’s police force - clutching the severed heads of Serbs or stuffing them into sacks cut no ice with del Ponte while Judge May bans such evidence from his court.
A final thought: Is Oxford University responsible for the current plight of the Serbs? Clinton, Blair, Clark and other ‘relative’ Islamist terror supporters, ad hoc supporters of sovereignty and mad cluster bombers all studied at this once prestigious seat of learning!
These comments might have been more coherent and appropriate at the time of the report of Clark’s ‘evidence’ but have been delayed because of the technical difficulties at the Jurist site: The Systems Manager’s lot is not, for long, a very happy one.
Peter Taylor
Herts/UK- Sunday December 28, 2003 at 10:27 pm
Mr. Jovanovic I agree with your American friend. The chances of a victory were as slim as defending Kosovo, and a chance of the NATO involvement was great. The battle would be probably lost, but it would be honorable thing to do and, may be, a better truce would be signed as a consequence. Yugoslav army at the time was much stronger than when he tried to defend Kosovo. He had better chance this time than later on. If he tried to defend Krajina and Serbs in Bosnia he would become a war criminal for the West (as he is now) but for sure he would become the Serbian hero. This way he is a war criminal for the West and traitor of the Serbian cause for the Serbs like me. Not an honorable position to be in. For me his most miserable failure was that he refused to get directly involved in Krajina and Bosnia and had a firm control over irregulars responsible for a lot of the war crimes. What he did? He helped but no he has not. He went against the West but no he helped them to "bring peace" under which most of the Serbs from Krajina and Bosnia were ethnically cleansed. Just remember ethical cleansing of Serbs from Sarajevo as a direct consequence of his acceptance of the Dayton "peace agreement". Yes, NATO used him do deliver Krajina and Bosnian Serbs to them. The irony is that they are now prosecuting him for not delivering the Serbs of Krajina and Bosnia to NATO.
Does this statement of mine changes my position on the trial? No. The trial is the travesty of justice and truth. Is this trial going to make Mr. Milosevic a martyr for the Serbian cause and a hero? Certainly it will, and may be, after all, he deserves it. He had guts to stand against the West in the West's darkest hours. He was not a perfect person in his role but his was very difficult role to play, and one that can be played just once. He made his moves and stayed by them. His opponents agreed to truces, treaties and never stayed by them. The very crucial issue of this trial is:" Is Mr. Milosevic a rabid nationalist and has he acted as one"? The simple answer is not. Look at Serbia "proper". It is the most ethnically mixed area in the Balkans. It has no history of genocidal actions before, during and after the rule of Mr. Milosevic and his "criminal collaborators." But the people that he went against were and are rabid nationalists, including NATO and their leadership that had and still does not have any respect for the Serbian rights and lives. Rabid miss treatment of the Serbs continues in Krajina, Bosnia and Kosovo with full cooperation of UN, USA, GB and NATO. Compared to their leaders Mr. Milosevic is an angel, martyr and a hero
Pera Bora
Ottawa
Canada- Sunday December 28, 2003 at 10:34 pm
D. Jaovanovic,Would you kindly expand on your statement: "... I advocated that Milosevic is a criminal but not for the crimes he is accused of in the Hague." I.e., why do you call Milosevic a criminal?
Thank you,
M Donne
Canada- Monday December 29, 2003 at 12:48 am
I am a US Army officer and agree that this is an illegal trial that is about Clinton and his cronies for show.The Yugslavian constitution forbids taking anyone outside of their country to be tried. Milosevic was the leader and should still be of Yugoslavia. I am hopeful that if enough of the trial is publicized in the media that Milosevic will be freed and the courth will be disbanned.
g ghearing
TN- Monday December 29, 2003 at 1:18 am
D. Jaovanovic & Pera Bora,I vaguely remember something Milosevic once said about a telegram sent to Gen. Mrksic.
It was something along the lines that if the Krajina Serbs could hold out for a couple of days then Yugoslavia would be able to send them some help.
Do either of you remember anything about that? I only have a vague recollection.
Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States- Monday December 29, 2003 at 1:25 am
G. Ghearing,Since you're an officer in the U.S. Army perhaps you would be kind enough to tell us what sort of a reputation Wesley Clark has among the members of our military.
Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States- Monday December 29, 2003 at 2:37 am
Read Col. David Hackworth website about Clark.
Kathryn Love
Orange Co.
Calif.- Monday December 29, 2003 at 2:46 am
Mr. Jovanovic you have listened to too many lies about Milosevic and have concluded that he must be guilty of something. This is what the American manipulation of the media does even to decent people. Respectable people start believing the lies. Milosevic has not been convicted of any crime and yet he is treated as a criminal. There are more people in the world that think George Bush is world’s number one criminal and he is free and continues his criminal activity and justifies it in the name of September 11th. The “fear factor” works well in AmericaBush senior was a partner of the Bin Laden family at the time of Sep, 11th. Accomplices? You bet they are. If Sep. 11th did not happen American foreign policy would have invented it. The billions of dollars spent to manipulate Sep. 11th is criminal. American government hides its criminality in September 11th and justices its criminality around the world.
The contract for the reconstruction of the American military billet that was destroyed in Saudi Arabia went to the Bin Laden’s. The Saudi and Bin Laden financed Bush Sr.’s campaign with suitcases of money. The money was given to law firms who in turn gave the money to the Bush campaign. This method of contributing was to circumvent American laws on campaign contributions. Are these criminal acts? You bet they are and if Bush should ever be convicted the next president will pardon him. That is the American way.
Some 131 pages of Clark’s testimony were reduced to 40 pages under Rule 89 (F). “The witnesses don't even write their own witness statements. The prosecutor writes them, and then turns around and submits their version of what the witness said as "evidence" under their Rule 89(F). As if that wasn't bad enough President Milosevic isn't even allowed to cross-examine all of the witnesses who's testimony is being used against him”
The rules of Mr. May’s court are applied to Milosevic but not to prosecution witnesses like Clark. Clark’s evidence was stage managed by Mr. May and the American Government. Note Mr. Nice comment to Mr. May “We considered that yesterday with the witness, his lawyers, but more importantly perhaps the United States government lawyers.” This sums up who is in charge of this court.
One can understand that in order for the trial to proceed questions to witnesses should deal with their evidence. Since I am not a lawyer, I can’t understand why the accused is not allowed to question, for example Clark, on evidence of others. For example, Clark knows about Neumann’s evidence and the court has admitted Neumann’s evidence from his testimony in other trials at The Hague, which by the way Milosevic could not cress examine. Since Neumann’s evidence is part of the record it should be open to cross examination of any witness that worked with Neumann?????
Mr Ghearing don’t hold your breath about this trial being publicized. America wants to destroy every vestige of collectivism, socialism and public ownership. Milosevic is in The Hague because he refused to privatize what the West ordered him to privatize. The new colonists have privatized some industry in Kosovo without authorization from Serbia and Serbia has appealed this to the UN.
This trial has nothing to do with international law. The trial is about McDonaldism, Wendyism, Coca-Colaism and Mexicanizing the Western economy. To do this the West replaces the opposition in the target country with Quislings that follow orders from their masters in the boardrooms of America. Media does not question this because they are members of those boardrooms.
Walter Trkla
Kamloops BC
Canada- Monday December 29, 2003 at 3:12 am
Too true Walter!
Pera Bora
Milosevic couldn't get involved in Krajina or Bosnia as the West proclaimed them to be "legitimate" states. Any direct intervention would have been "aggression" against a member of the UN. They would have had a field day with that. That's what they're claiming even now when it is clear Milosevic couldn't do much but assist on humanitarian and logistical level.
As to whether Milosevic is a crook or not, I wouldn't really know. In any event, it doesn't really matter as far as the ICTY is concerned otherwise half of the American politicians and half of Europe's politicians would be at the ICTY.
If he was a crook, if he robbed the YU people in any way, then they should have tried him, not the ICTY! They clearly didn't have much on him so they packed him off to the ICTY and did a Pontius Pilate/Sanhedrin job on him.
And we all know what sort of injustice that lead to, don't we?
In any event, the Empire wins on the "might is right" principle.
David
Oztralia- Monday December 29, 2003 at 6:43 am
ICTY'S justice priciple is a very simple one "it is not a matter of been innocent or guilty it's just all the contrary?" (CANTINFLAS)
M P
Panama- Monday December 29, 2003 at 11:11 am
Congratulations to Slobodan Milosevic on winning a seat in the Serbian Parliament -- even though he was not allowed to campaign!!Seems the Serbs were not about to turn out in numbers needed to legitimize an election unless/until Slobo was on the ticket. Cudos all around!
M Donne
Canada- Monday December 29, 2003 at 12:09 pm
M. DoneI owe you an explanation why I called Milosevic a “criminal”. Firstly, it was for the sake of maintaining the sensible conversation with my fellow Americans.
Secondly, many of my friends from Serbia, did call Milosevic a “criminal” but mostly for his financial alleged malfeasance. Having not lived in Yugoslavia at any time during Milosevic rule, I have no first hand knowledge about that either.
If that statement of mine caused some anger on some people part I apologize.
D. Jovanovic
USA- Monday December 29, 2003 at 12:11 pm
Thank you Mr. Trkla. I hope you will not mind if I show your post to some conversants at that diner.
D. Jovanovic, physicist
USA- Monday December 29, 2003 at 2:56 pm
Milosevic's only crime was not sending the Yugoslav army full force into Zagreb when our nazi friend Tudjman declared seccession. This would have killed a few thousand people & saved a few hundred thousand. It would also have allowed Tudjman to be brought to trial & prove that Chancellor Kohl & the German cabinet were involved in planing this war from day one. If being to willing to go the extra mile for peace can be a fault, & against genocidal nazis like our current rulers it can, then that alone is his fault.
Neil Craig
UK- Monday December 29, 2003 at 3:34 pm
Then again, maybe he didn't have the power to crush Tudjman. The JNA was a motley bunch with zillions of nationalist defectors and traitors.Imagine what a field day the Vatican and Germany (aka the EC) would have had: "Communist Dictator Crushes Fledgling Croatian Democracy!" That would have invited a DIRECT and IMMEDIATE attack on Serbia by NATO, with all the "righteousness" of fighting the last Cold War tyrant. Somewhat akin to fighting Stalin. And that would have meant an invasion of Serbia too, just like in Iraq.
As it is, the Serbs can deal with the Serb 5th column now.
David
Oztralia- Monday December 29, 2003 at 3:44 pm
The PRESENT
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La- Monday December 29, 2003 at 6:40 pm
As far as I can determine, Milosevic's corruption charges arose from alleged attempts to funnel aid monies for Croation & Bosnian Serb defence.
M Donne
Canada- Monday December 29, 2003 at 8:06 pm
Mr. Jovanovic (or anyone else who might know): Please tell me the Serbian term for AMINO ACID. It's not in my Serbian-English dictionary. Thanks!
Anna P
California- Monday December 29, 2003 at 8:09 pm
Apologies for going off subject in the previous posting. I do have a relevant question about the trial. From what I am reading, it is implied that Milosevic acknowledges a massacre at Srebrenica. Is that in fact the case? I'm still missing seeing any definite evidence of that. What is actually accepted as having gone on there?
Anna P
California- Monday December 29, 2003 at 11:26 pm
Ana if you go to http://www.krstarica.com/dictionary/english-serbian/ you will find a Serbian/English English/Serbian dictionary. Amino acid = amino kiseline or amino acid=jedinjenja koja pored karboksi according to this dictionary?????? According to Wesley Clark Milosevic in one of his braggadocio moods told him that he had warned Mladic about behaving himself at Srebrenica. After seeing Clark’s testimony it is clear to me that Clark is not only a braggart he is a gutless liar. Read his testimony and you will see that it is “Much ado About Nothing”
walter trkla
kamloops bc
canada- Monday December 29, 2003 at 11:47 pm
It's all about Clark's PERSONAL perceptions and extrapolations. Hardly qualifies as EVIDENCE!
David
Oztralia- Tuesday December 30, 2003 at 8:00 am
General Clark wants the Democratic Party nomination as candidate for the presidency of the United States of Petroleum. The Democratic Party (nothing to do with democracy) is split, one side supporting Clinton's line and that is general Clark bid and the other, perhaps not so clear, is Dean's supported by vice president Gore. It is all the same, but Clarks intervention in the trial (human rights) was crucial in building his image as internationalist, multilarist something Dean can't show. Many fear Dean as too aggressive!
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La- Tuesday December 30, 2003 at 9:13 am
Milosevic condemned Clark's testimony re their one-on-one conversation as a "Blatant lie". A week later, Howard Dean denied Clark's claim that, again in a one-on-one conversation, Dean had asked him to be his running mate. Earlier, Clark had stated that 'someone' at the Whitehouse had, in a one-on-one phone call, asked him to find a way to tie Iraq to 9-11. The Whitehouse denied the phone call. Is there a pattern emerging?
M Donne
Canada- Tuesday December 30, 2003 at 9:16 am
The Kosovo Conundrum
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La- Tuesday December 30, 2003 at 12:59 pm
One of the agressors in the American terror-bombing of Yugoslavia (Javier-culpable-Solana)is now trying to interfear(did i spell that right?)in the elections of a sovereighn country. The neo-liberal market-economy-fascists of EU is not satisfyed with the slow progress of the "democratic" quisling forces in Serbia obviasly, this time the serbs will not obey to any treats ,bombs or promises what so ever. Time to let Ruder-Finn work for us now?
Dr Frankenstein Erectus-maximus
Öckerö island- Tuesday December 30, 2003 at 1:00 pm
Carla hurry up , c'mon you got to find the guy guilty of something , er....stealing chicken , breaking into a back yard , anything . Maybe you haven't heard the news the guy has won a seat in the parliament and so far you have won nothing , scarry situation "manita" as a chicano will say .
M P
Panama- Tuesday December 30, 2003 at 1:05 pm
Complementary: The perfumed asshole Clark was a real give-away in deed, he made a bigtime joke of himself as well as for the united bluff of america.
Dr Frankenstein Erectus-maximus
Öckerö island- Tuesday December 30, 2003 at 3:23 pm
Javier Solana's role in YU? Democracy as "WE" like it! Never mind the people's choice.
As for Slobo, Carla can't even manage to find a single chicken he's supposed to have ripped off.
But they can find lots of blood and bone, courtesy of the extreme Islamic "intifada" in Bosnia and Kosovo. So why not pin that on him instead?
David
Oztralia- Tuesday December 30, 2003 at 4:02 pm
Thanks, Walter. I need to discuss an amino acid with someone in Serbia by phone -- something that might help someone who is ill there -- and I didn't want to be struggling for the right words. I have tried those online dictionaries in the past and found them to be all but useless. I'll try the one you suggested in future. Thanks again.
Anna P
California- Tuesday December 30, 2003 at 4:14 pm
Sorry if I wasn't clear in my question about Milosevic and any acknowledgment about Srebrenica. I certainly did not mean to so much as imply that I give any credence to Wesley Clark, dispicable man that he is. It's just that in postings here and references posters have made to other sites there seems to be a certain acceptance that something happened there, but nobody is ever clear on what. OK, I understand that nobody knows exactly what -- but is there any kind of logical consensus about what actually was done there and to whom? I have yet to see any clear evidence and yet I keep hearing that "something" did happen. What was that something? How many might have been killed and who were they? I ask these questions because the Srebrenica thing hangs over Serbs as a kind of permanent condemnation of the nation. It would be in the interest of all Serbs if this matter were investigated thoroughly, by Serbs, and the findings published without any reservations. Serbs have to be seen as not hiding anything, and in the process of investigating such possible crimes, it might actually turn out that Serbs find out something that will exonerate them. In any case, it needs to be cleared up once and for all so that the definitive facts can be produced and this conjecture and slimy propaganda can be stopped.
Anna P
California- Tuesday December 30, 2003 at 4:21 pm
I have been in touch with someone in the know about such things, asking why the Serbian government doesn't finally get some Public Relations going worldwide for Serbia. Isn't it high time? If the Albanians can do it, why don't the Serbs!? But apparently this is not likely to happen any time soon because Serbs are so unlucky in their government officials that not one member of the government ever looks further ahead than next week. They have no vision and no imagination about how to salvage the reputation of the Serbian nation -- a quite noble nation -- and I for one am disgusted by that. Serbia needs to get some PR going! Come on!
Anna P
California- Tuesday December 30, 2003 at 4:36 pm
Good point David! Javier-soon killed by death-Solana and George -i´ll buy them and drug them-Soros foundation is having a hard time convincing and driving those stubborn demon-Serbs into our neo-liberal fascist community of EU. The drugdealing and trafficking terrorists in Kosovo and southern Macedonia will soon with a little patience have their big-Albania, but i cant just understand why they now are attacking those wich are supposed to realize it, their feeding hand? Anyway Carla(is it a she or a he or what?) is desperate obviously, Slobo in spite of her restrictions and an endless amount of american support dont seem to have any planes to rot in his small prisoncell. Slobo, keep up the good work and may the health be with you to do so! They cant keep you in custody forever you know. Hasta la victoria final!!
Dr Frankenstein Erectus-maximus
Öckerö island- Tuesday December 30, 2003 at 4:56 pm
Anna- how much effort and money do you think it will cost to tear down that concrete media-worldwide lie campaign against those who are not in favor of the imperial goodwill, the serbs that is? Not only Ruder Finn i think.
Dr Frankenstein Erectus-maximus
Öckerö island- Tuesday December 30, 2003 at 5:12 pm
Ms. Ana P.I am sorry not to be able to tell you the Serbian name for Amino acids. I did not have it in my Organic Chemistry class in Belgrade. Probably: AMINO-Kiseline.
These organic molecules, and there are twenty of them, are the building blocks of proteins. Their order and number determine the property of the given protein. For each of these acids there is a four letter code in the DNA.
If you look up “Sastav Proteina”, you will find the answer.
D. Jovanovic
USA- Tuesday December 30, 2003 at 5:14 pm
The Vicar of Stoke Rivers, DevonThe following extract is from a letter sent to a provincial English newspaper The Western Daily News. It is from a Christian minister - probably ex British Army - stung into action no doubt by Warmonger Blair’s most recent deceptions leading to his latest military adventure in Iraq:
The BBC's opinion notwithstanding, the Serbs of Kosovo were no invaders or interlopers or occupiers of land not their own. On the contrary, they had at least as historic a right to a presence in that province as any other ethnic group in that place, their churches and gravestones bearing more than adequate testimony to that fact.
Ignoring the facts, the new world order began a bombing campaign on March 24, 1999 that lasted for 78 days. Belgrade was hit for the first time on April 3. Pounded into submission from the air, the Yugoslav Federal Parliament ratified NATO terms for a cease-fire.
The Federal Yugoslav Army was, and remains, undefeated in the field, but was compelled to leave its Kosovo province by the cease-fire terms. The venue NATO selected for the signing of the cease-fire agreement, namely Kumanovo in northern Macedonia, was highly significant and was surely meant to add to the humiliation of the Yugoslav army, for it was at that place in 1912 that Serbia obtained its victory over the Turks which ended the first Balkan war.
The 40,000 men of the Yugoslav Third Army and reserve were given a mere seven days to remove themselves and all their military vehicles from Kosovo, and that with all their command and control facilities bombed to nothing.
With their only protection from the NATO-equipped Kosovo Liberation Army now gone, ordinary Serbian families, men, women and children, were left with no choice but to flee into Serbia proper. I have a message from God for those who lead NATO: whoever assumed the role of the civil authority for the Yugoslav province of Kosovo and then permitted violence and the looting of Serbian property was a passive anarchist and looter, an accessory during and after the fact.
The new world order advanced its cause by launching its hi-tech terror weapons on civilian power stations, water treatment plants, motor car factories, oil refineries, the Danube bridges, a television station, and at least one hospital.
Then, with the civilian population on its knees, it calmly announced aid, but with provisos. Promise reconstruction money as the hostile West will, I suspect that Belgrade's civic buildings are as NATO left them - in ruins. In the new world order risk to life is transferred from military personnel to civilians.
Thus we in the UK, who can justly be proud of a glorious past, now have a new kind of 'victory': that of the loss of 2,000 Yugoslav civilian lives and of at least 5,000 military ones, for the loss of nil of our own.
I do not call that a victory, I call it an obscenity, and any honourable soldier would call it by the same name.
The National Post (Canada), The Sunday Mirror, The Western News and other elements of the British media have recently begun to expose the Blairite lies about the Serbs and Nato’s illegitimate attack upon Serbia. Even Britain’s Channel 5 TV is beginning to broadcast facts about crimes of the KLA. Ex BBC reporter - the BBC would never broadcast the truth about the KLA - Donal MacIntyre in a recent programme ‘Semtex for Sale’ revealed the KLA’s willingness to supply Britain’s enemies the IRA with weapons and explosives with which to kill and maim British citizens.
Gogol’s reference above to Nebojsa Malic’s recent hour long statements on a US radio programme shows that even in the USA the truths about the West’s crimes in Serbia are gradually being revealed to an ever wider audience. But, as he warns, will those taken in by the likes of Blair have the courage now to admit their mistakes? Let us hope that 2004 will see more men in positions of influence, like the vicar, striving to set the record straight: demanding that those truly responsible for the destruction of Serbia be brought to justice: starting with the leaders of the KLA’s campaign of terror.
Unlike his former Archbishop, Bomber Carey, who sanctioned the attack on Serbia and makes no protest now about the destruction of Serbia’s Christian churches by the Islamist KLA the Devon Vicar actually cares about humanity. The Reverend Geoffrey Wyatt concludes with this statement:
What the North Atlantic Pact did in Yugoslavia was the exact opposite of Christian, and I will no longer sit idly by while the man or woman in the street, trying to make a living and wondering from time to time what life is all about, is brainwashed day and night into believing that might must be right, or worse, that it is Christian!
Peter Taylor
Herts/UK- Tuesday December 30, 2003 at 5:18 pm
Ms. Ana P.This web site gives you the name and chemical structure of all twenty of them
http://www.chemie.fu-berlin.de/chemistry/bio/amino-acids_en.html
D. Jovanovic, physicist not chemist
USA- Tuesday December 30, 2003 at 6:21 pm
What I think Milosevic new about Srebrenica is what every Serb and Muslim new: If Serbs took over Srebrenica, there would be a blood bath due to all the crimes Naser Oric committed prior to fall. That does not make it right, but in my belief, Mladic tried best to protect people. What really happened, how much it has to do with revenge killings and how much with set up, I do not know. I do not pass it by the Mujahedins to kill its own to achieve objective.
Dakic Ana
Serbia- Tuesday December 30, 2003 at 7:21 pm
Anna PYour question: “Is there any kind of logical consensus about what actually was done there (in Srebrenica) and to whom?” reminds me of a recurring historical pattern of ‘What was done and to whom’.
The murder of British officials quartered in Dublin and occupying Ireland in the early nineteenth century was followed by the massacre of Irish citizens largely by the Black and Tans: an army corps recruited mainly from British prisons.
The killing of customs officers attempting to force their way into the Davidian sect compound in Waco was followed by the massacre of the entire company including mainly women and children. It is claimed that Wesley Clark had a hand in this massacre?
The horrific atrocities committed on Serb civilians in the precincts of Srebrenica by Nasser Oric and his henchmen including Mujahedin - which accounted for the murder of 3,200 Serbian souls - were followed by the attack on Srebenica’s Muslim men by Bosnian Serb army personnel and paramilitary forces including Croats.
There are many examples of ‘cycles of violence’ and none more obvious than those that recur regularly in Israel and Palestine and now in Iraq. Indeed it was a specifically declared policy of the KLA to make propaganda use of this phenomenon by initiating such ‘cycles’ in Kosovo.
While I do not condone what happened I say you need not feel ashamed. The Serb kill ratio - even given inflated figures - is far lower than in all the other examples I have alluded to: those of the sanctimonious hypocrites who now torture the Serbs in order to cover their own sins. No other country on earth would tolerate such butchery of its citizens without a massive response against the perpetrators among the Muslim men of Srebrenica or those who embraced them. Ask the Israelis: ask Cohen, ask Albright ask Clark: all of who support Israel and its uncompromising actions against Mujahedin terror.
As for the numbers involved how many of the 4,000 or so recovered Srebrenica bodies are the 3,200 civilian victims of the Muslim fighters? And how many of the 4,500 recovered bodies in Kosovo are victims of the KLA? The ICTY seems determined not to find out!
Peter Taylor
Herts/UK- Tuesday December 30, 2003 at 7:26 pm
CorrectionThe following passage:
The murder of British officials quartered in Dublin and occupying Ireland in the early nineteenth century was followed by the massacre of Irish citizens largely by the Black and Tans: an army corps recruited mainly from British prisons.
Should read:
The murder of British officials quartered in Dublin and occupying Ireland in the early twentieth century was followed by the massacre of Irish citizens largely by the Black and Tans: an army corps recruited mainly from British prisons.
Peter Taylor
Herts/UK- Tuesday December 30, 2003 at 7:27 pm
Anna P, the Serbian Unity Congress now has an office in Washington, D.C., including a Public Relations & Antidefamation dept. Small steps, but a start. http://www.serbianunity.net/projects/index.html?Suc_Session=00535e3537
s mays
Kansas city, usa- Wednesday December 31, 2003 at 1:51 am
Serbia can't afford a PR war with the KLA. The KLA GNP from drugs and white slavery and other tasteful activities is probably higher than the Serbian GNP.As for Srebrenica, it seems pretty clear that of the supposed 7000-8000 Muslims killed, plenty are actual Serb victims of Naser Oric, plenty are Muslim victims of Naser Oric (those who didn't want to fight) and plenty are Muslim and Serb victims of the paramilitary/mercenary/mujahideen groups inserted by the secret services of France, Britain and the US to provide a "causus belli" against the Serbs.
They wanted dead bodies and the more the merrier. And they needed to cover up the Oric slaughters which were from the UN safe haven for which THEY were responsible.
Serbs have nothing to be ashamed about! Plenty of Muslims found refuge in Serbia proper and plenty of them were treated with dognity and respect.
No number of Carla Del Pontiuses nor ICTYs can ever negate that!
As for the propaganda, you just have to live with it, content with the knowledge that it is NOT the truth no matter how much spiel the paid propagandist come up with.
When Serbia starts dealing in drugs like the CIA and the KLA, then it might be able to buy the corrupt assholes in US Congress like, Biden, Liebermann, Dole, Lantos, MCCain and several other KLA backers. And those same assholes will then direct the media and whatever is necessary to cleanse the Serbs' name.
The catch is that Serbia needs to be the higher bidder, as those political sluts are indeed for sale! A few billion in drug and white slavery and other criminally obtained money would go a long way to a night in the White House and at Lantos's, Liebermann's, Biden's et al dinner parties.
And it doesn't matter ONE bit whether they are Democrats or Republicans. Tammany Hall still lives in the US political culture. And there's plenty of rotten politicians still for sale, just as there have always been.
David
Oztralia- Wednesday December 31, 2003 at 7:37 am
RE: "Serbia can't afford a PR war..." To paraphrase JFK, fear not the path of truth, for the lack of funds. What YU needs to do, in my opinion, is to stop being defensive! Bluntly - stop taking it 'personally' - nationally, if you wish. The US has attacked 44 countries since August 1945, a number of them many times. The pretext was always sold on humanitarian high grounds. You cannot convince the self-righteousness that you are right. The YU crisis was exploited by the US to set a precendent for its New Doctrine. The Hague Court is there to demolish the UN, not Milosevic & comp. The aim was to make UN violate its own chart and thus damage it beyond repair so that 'real wars' can be waged fast and hard. In between the Hague, Guantanamo, and soon Bagdad, the idea of justice will vanish: the Bermuda Triangle of democracy itself. Forget not that the modern notion democracy was developed in the US as a weapon against the Soviet Union. Now that the soviets are gone, it has become obsolete. If YU continues to be defensive without any reference to the current developments worldwide, it will appear to be 'out of context', a victim that can do no more than whine. Remember - Serbia was always the sure SYMPTOM of a grand scale horror waiting to happen. The 1900-1914 history is being now repeated using higher tech means. Talking about cycles of violence? How about the 100-year one? It is our duty, as world citizens, to shape YU into a CASE for unveliving what lies BEHIND the NATO attack on Serbia - the ressurrection of the drive toward global violence. No, there are no 'dark forces' beside it, but the usual incompetence and stupidy. I believe that the US was, is and will continue to be animated by good intentions - the kind that pave the worldwide road to hell. Now, that the US is alone and almighty, it is INEVITABLE for it to go out of control due to a severe lack of feedback.
John North
Toronto
Canada- Wednesday December 31, 2003 at 8:03 am
A little more
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La- Wednesday December 31, 2003 at 8:08 am
Amen John North
Dakic Ana
Serbia- Wednesday December 31, 2003 at 8:14 am
For John North:
Imperialism is the highest form of capitalism
V.I.L.
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La- Wednesday December 31, 2003 at 10:00 am
I am kind of "confused" are all this last 100 and some years events in regards of Serbia and Serbs , creating the concept of making us a different branch of the human race and by this we are subject to the bigotry and hate of the rest of the world , only because we are a proud nation that doesn't want to take shit from nobody . Hum¡¡¡ very interesting , I think I am starting to understand the Israelis .
M P
Panama- Wednesday December 31, 2003 at 11:02 am
Milosevic trial sets precedent: US granted right to censor evidence
Gogol -- I got this from the link you gave to this article on the Socialist Web page. The Socialists must have lawyers who agree that the Clark testimony was censored and is a precedent. But we all know that mainstream press isn't interested in the socialist take on this trial.
Aren't there lawyers or mainstream press out there who can report or have reported this very same headline? If the lawyers have not, is it because they are not following the trial and so don't even know that Clark was censored? Isn't there anybody who clearly has no connection to this trial outcome who would publish this headline? Where are the lawyers I want to know?
When you look in the Jurist's Google search to see what is being reported it is literally the same article from the AP or Reuters, reprinted in scores of newspapers. There is following this trial with energy. It's all lazy reporting. I know this has been said time and again but if any real jouranlists or reporters are reading this, wake up!
Nikole J
Canada- Wednesday December 31, 2003 at 11:04 am
Correction: Sentence in last paragraph should read:
There is nobody following this trial with energy
Nikole J
Canada- Wednesday December 31, 2003 at 11:24 am
John, excellent coment!!!
Pera Bora
Ottawa
Canada- Wednesday December 31, 2003 at 11:27 am
David, excekkebt coment.
Pera Botra
Ottawa
Canada- Wednesday December 31, 2003 at 11:30 am
My last post looks as if I have already started to celebrate.
Happy New Year to All.
Pera Bora
Ottawa
Canada- Wednesday December 31, 2003 at 11:59 am
Two indicted leaders in the NATO court get elected under international supervised elections in Serrbia!
Who elected the troika of clowns at ICTY guignol's?
Corruption and Law do not mix, Law ceases to exist, hence the JURIST"S silence.
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La- Wednesday December 31, 2003 at 12:02 pm
I wish you all a happy new awakening next year so we can throw them neo- liberal slaughter-fascists in Washington and EU back to hell! And a big perfumed flame-thrower up Clarks and his united bluff of america gouvernment assholes! VIVA LA REVOLUTION!
Admiral Kuznetsov
Severomorsk- Wednesday December 31, 2003 at 12:30 pm
EL MUNDO FUE Y SERA UNA PORQUERIA , EN EL 506 Y EN EL 2000 TAMBIEN , DA LO MISMO EL QUE LABURA DIA Y NOCHE COMO UN BUEY , QUE EL QUE ROBA QUE EL QUE MATA O ESTA FUERA DE LA LEY . "CAMBALACHE" (TANGO). !FELIZ AÑO NUEVO¡
M P
Panama- Wednesday December 31, 2003 at 1:01 pm
PR purchased with funds from white slavery and illegal drug sales will never replace the truth and I don’t think that we should just live with the lies. When the need was there the Croatian community opened their pockets and found the money not only for propaganda but also for weapons. The Serbs, on the other hand, did not respond in the same fashion. The Croatian community had an organization in place and was prepared for this conflict even before it started. Every Croatian family in Kamloops had to give a minimum of $100 a month for the cause. The Serbs, on the other hand, did not respond and open their wallets. It was shameful.When Saddam Hussein was captured thousands of Arab lawyers volunteered to defend him. We on this page are asking the international law community to speak out against this injustice while the Serbian lawyers are silent on the issue. I am speaking here of Serbian lawyers in the Diaspora.
Forward, without forgetting Where our strength can be seen now to be! When starving or when eating Forward, not forgetting Our solidarity!
Black or white or brown or yellow Leave your old disputes behind. Once start talking with your fellow Men, you'll soon be of one mind.
Forward, without forgetting Where our strength can be seen now to be! When starving or when eating Forward, not forgetting Our solidarity!
Bertolt Brecht
Walter Trkla
Kamloops BC
Canada- Wednesday December 31, 2003 at 1:05 pm
Quotation marks "Forward {---} Solidarity!"
Walter Trkla
Kamloops BC
Canada- Wednesday December 31, 2003 at 1:55 pm
Solidarity Song
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La- Wednesday December 31, 2003 at 1:57 pm
Or :
http://eislermusic.com/reviews/solid.htm
and click on the SOUND icon. Happy New Year to all.
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La- Wednesday December 31, 2003 at 2:25 pm
I think now is a good time to send a card to Milosevic with Congratulations & a 'hug'. For myself, I will add the phrase: "Victory at the Hague". These were the last words of Vlajko Stojiljkovic. The full text of his suicide letter can be found at http://emperor.vwh.net/icdsm/more/Vlajko2-i.htm. The concluding paragraphs state: "I have known Slobodan Milosevic since he was very young. I have always considered him a moral family man, educated, patient and dedicated to his people. He was modest, but strict, and beloved everywhere he went, a man of great charisma. I worked with him most closely in my official capacity as chairman of the Yugoslav Chamber of Commerce, the Serbian Chamber of Commerce, and the Minister of Internal Affairs of Serbia. Our families had good, friendly relations. He trusted me very much, and I always told him the truth. He always insisted on respect for the law, security of citizens, prevention of crime and security of the country.Slobodan is a symbol of struggle for peace in this region, a struggle for our state and national interests. He is a symbol of resistance to hegemony and world domination.
For the sake of our future, and the future of our children, I wish him victory at the Hague!
M Donne
Canada- Wednesday December 31, 2003 at 4:30 pm
Gogol -- RE: "Imperialism is the highest form of capitalism" - True, but I believe that we have passed that phase (imperialistic capitalism) after the WW2. I have no idea how to call this new phase because of its highly stochastic nature. MP -- RE: "I am kind of "confused"" - I was referring to the past 100 years of war globalization. The Serbian track record is that of a very proud nation, confirmed by the late events - electing Milosevic against the 'realpolitik' pressure. It is, however, my fear that some Serbians will start feeling like the Israelis, which would be a disaster. As far as I know, Serbia has done nothing to be ashamed of - that's the point Milosevic is trying to make at the Hague, I guess. Happy New Year and my best wishes to all of you! Lets keep alive the hope that Reason will prevail.
John North
Canada- Wednesday December 31, 2003 at 4:32 pm
There´s no question about it, soon 3 years and not even the shadow of a evidence. But what will become of Carla? so much time so much hate, she can not sleep and will soon implode of all the accumulated anger she carries. I agree in deed with the hug, but lets not forget General Mladic and Dr Karadcic both falsely acused in the name of the neoliberal capitalist Empire.
Admiral Kuznetsov
Severomorsk- Wednesday December 31, 2003 at 4:46 pm
I've often felt that the Serbs and Israelis had much in common. I tend to belleve, however, that the Serbs would stand up for the Israelis if the time ever came that they needed to, unlike the Israelis who never made a peep against the NATO bombing, but seemed to accept the Clinonite references to Nazism as truth. How easily they forgot the Serbs who gave their lives for Jews in WWII! I hope it will be a happy new year...what are the chances?
Anna P
California- Wednesday December 31, 2003 at 4:51 pm
Srecna Nova Godina Happy New Year to all!! Keep in mind:" Srbima nema spasa ali nece propasti!" - "There is no salvation for Serbs but they shall not perish". So my hope is alive!!! All the best.
Dakic Ana
Serbia- Wednesday December 31, 2003 at 5:31 pm
Great posts, John North!
Great powers have always exploited the small nations, from Babylon to Rome to the Ottomans to the British to the US.
The colonising process is alive and well even today! The Pax Americana has become a Global Pax Americana now that Communism is dead.
Serbia's and many other countries' only hope is to battle on and retain their dignity as they are swallowed up by force and historical imperatives.
Milosevic so far has shown himself as a leader in that respect and for that, no matter what else, he deserves a hats off.
No amount of "hysterical" imperative by Carla del Pontius or Solana or Blair or Clinton or the rotten and prostituted media or whoever can deny that. And in that sense, he has been and is victorious.
You may lose your house, your money, your car, your land, your freedom or your job but when it all comes to the bottom line, when you manage to retain your self respect and when you manage to retain your dignity and think for yourself instead of becoming a sheep, YOU ARE NEVER A LOSER.
Happy New Year, Slobo! They may get you yet, but they cannot kill your spirit and the dignity you've displayed at the Hague.
And a Happy New Year to all you folk on the Forum here, including you who disagree with me.
David
Oztralia- Wednesday December 31, 2003 at 5:40 pm
Mr. Jovanovic, Thanks very much for your replies. I do know that you are not a chemist -- however, a scientist's knowledge often crosses over, beyond his own individual expertise. Actually, my husband is a biochemist, but not one who speaks Serbian. I hope you didn't go to much trouble. Again, thanks.
Anna P
California- Wednesday December 31, 2003 at 6:13 pm
For those interested, here's an example of how propaganda is created and disseminated.
Peter Taylor, have you missed this one about Tony Bliar?
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=03/12/30/1441259
David
Oztralia- Wednesday December 31, 2003 at 6:33 pm
And one more story about lies:
http://www.michaelparenti.org/Milosevic.html
David
Oztralia- Wednesday December 31, 2003 at 7:11 pm
Anna P -- "I've often felt that the Serbs and Israelis had much in common" - I'm not sure why you had that feeling. Maybe it is because I am not aware of any fascist inclinations/actions undertaken by the Serbs at any time - at least something comparable with this Israeli company policy. http://www.cbc.ca/cp/world/031223/w122328.html David -- "Happy New Year, Slobo! They may get you yet, but they cannot kill your spirit and the dignity you've displayed at the Hague." Let me join your cheers with: 1. Jail Wesley Clark! Free Milosevic! http://globalresearch.ca/articles/ICD312A.html; 2. Lets object to the abject - http://globalresearch.ca/articles/BLA312A.html Again, Happy New Year to you all! What are the chances, Ana P? They are very good, I trust, if more and more people are reminded that "In the End, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
John North
Canada- Wednesday December 31, 2003 at 9:19 pm
Any commonality between Jews and Serbs has been wiped out by Lantos, Liebermann, Eli Weasel and their likes! The Serbs NEVER spat at an underdog/victim like the latter did. No reflection on the decent Jewish folk!
Solomon of Sheba fame
Center Bank- Wednesday December 31, 2003 at 11:41 pm
Slobo svaka ti cast!!! Thay say that only hero is a dead hero. You sure prove them wrong!!! Slobo you will live forever,you will be remembered as the real SOLE MAN -for sure the only man that never sold his sole even under pressure that no man kind has ever had to endure. Undiscribable Injustice... Happy New Year
Milos Stojkovic
Ca.USA- Wednesday December 31, 2003 at 11:50 pm
OK so I dont spell worth a shit but thats erelevant.
Milos Stojkovic
USA - Sunday December 28, 2003 at 5:17 pm