MILOSEVIC TRIAL DISCUSSION ARCHIVE

Is Slobodan Milosevic getting a fair trial?
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• discussion archive

• Sunday February 01, 2004 at 12:48 am
  

  "Because the whole war was in the final analysis motivated by establishing and preserving of economic privileges of the ruling elites. "

  The statement shows a laudable socialist interpretation of the situation. True enough!

  However, it also displays a complete lack of understanding of the bigger picture!

  Firstly, NOT everyone here is a Serb or a Serb nationalist. Only a fuckwit like Arben would draw that conclusion as he no doubt has wet dreams over decapitating a few Serbs if he ever leaves school and gets the chance to grow up.

  For Goran's info, Milosevic, if he had done as he was told by the "West", would still be in power! Just like the numerous compliant and obedient, ass-kissing dictators are being maintained by the same "democratic West". Alternatively, he could have taken a "redundancy package", much larger than any money he could pilfer from YU treasury, and gone to live on the Riviera. And make no mistake Goran, the "democratic West" offered quite a bit in order to avoid having to go through the expense of forcing Milosevic out. Nevertheless, Milosevic didn't sell out or he'd be in Belgrade kicking your ass or on the Riviera sunning his own!

  For the information of Serbs in YU who think the diaspora supported Milosevic, you are patently wrong. The Serbian diaspora generally WANTED MIlosevic out because he was a communist in their eyes. They even wittingly supported western efforts to get him out of power. NOW, they seem to have realised the true agenda of the West but it's a little too late. Now they realise that the goal of getting to Milosevic was in fact an anti-Serb campaign for the purpose of getting into the Balkans and "establishing and preserving of economic privileges of the ruling elites".

  But not of the Serbian ruling elites, Rip van Winkle! More precisely of the WESTERN RULING ELITES! Wake up and smell the coffee, it's been served thousands of times in history to countless well-meaning suckers such as yourself... Name a colonial power and you'll find plenty of countries that have had their lifeblood sucked out of them for the benefit of the "ruling elites" of the colonising power.

  YU is a small but strategically important fish. Too small to be a friend to these elites especially because these elites do not understand the meaning of friendship. There's NO such rubrik in their Profit and Loss statements. And they DO NOT WANT EVERYONE as friends because they are not as easily exploited unless they are morons. If the whole world was their friend, they'd have no-one to provide cheap labour for them, they'd have no-one whose resources they could put their paws on when they want to, they'd have no one where they can dump their garbage on, they'd have no-one they could plunder.

  In short, THEY NEED ENEMIES! It helps keep their capitalist cycles going, AND THAT MY FRIEND IS THE ONLY INTEREST THE RULING ELITES HAVE.

  You just happen to have what they want at the moment and that is a brilliant geostrategic location from which to wage an economic (and eventually military) struggle for the European continent, including Russia as foremost. It is not in their interest to allow the EU and Russia to get closer militarily or economically. It is not in their interest anymore to allow the EU to compete with the elite's economy. The Cold War is over, their only objective in the Balkans is to maintain their foothold from which to control their own interests. And that means creating a HOT ZONE in the Balkans from which they can launch their economic and/or military firestorms.

  YU is theirs now and so are Europe's overland route and commerce lines to the Middle East, including the Danube.

  Shut the gate mate, the horse has bolted! Try transplanting your social justice and fairness story to America and your new masters and see how far you get. You'll get a seat right next to Milosevic.

  If Milosevic was supposed to have committed a crime against the YU people, the YU people should try him themselves. Letting the ICTY and the "ruling elites" do it is surrendering your independence and destiny to them, and kissing their ass. That will come back to haunt you much more so than any Milosevic ghosts you might dream up.

  No pasaran, amigo, unless you help them! And you're doing a splendid job, perhaps unwittingly, if I may say so myself.
  
  David
  Oztralia

• Sunday February 01, 2004 at 2:17 am
  

  How can a politician that has nothing modern and emancipative to offer be an obstacle to advanced capitalist countries? Why hundred years has been wasted in Stalinism, petty-bourgeois nationalism, social democracy, gender politics, protest politics, middle-class radicalism and so on? Why after all Milosevics, Saddams, Gaddafis, Castros, Homeinys, Lukashenkos, Mao ZeDongs, Che Guevaras, Stalins, Pol Pots, was US imperialism on the beginning of the 21st century able to wage a wave of new colonial wars? Despite two world wars, deep crises, imperialism still intact. Why?

  Obviously because none of the above mentioned politics represent scientific and historically viable answer to the savageness of capitalist system, which generates the wars and all other misfortunes.

  Your outlook is deeply pessimistic. You identify few pathetic petty-bourgeois nationalists, worried only about their personal well-being, as a future of mankind. Contrary to such a demoralized outlook, the only real force stronger than imperialism is the international working class. Politics for change and emancipation should therefore be concentrated on independent political movement of the international working class on socialist program and taking the lessons of the past century. If you really want to be anti-imperialist as you so vocally declare, you are welcome to help in this way, and being in Australia there are things you could do. There you have active Socialist Equality party (SEP), which is the part of the International Committee of the Fourth International, whose World Socialist Web Site is at present the only weapon for building the real alternative to the present state of tyranny and slavery. I suggest you to acquaint yourself with their daily analysis and help in every way possible. Misleading people into support for patriarchal, archaic and corrupted petty-bourgeois demagogues is actually the greatest assistance imperialism can get.

  Under different name, I have already posted what will in my opinion be the most important event in 2004, the presidential campaign of SEP in USA. Let me quote:

  ｡ｰThe SEP intends to conduct this campaign not simply on a national, but on an international level. We want our campaign to represent the interests of masses of working and oppressed people all over the world, whose lives are profoundly and disastrously affected by the policies pursued by American imperialism. Given the global impact of the United States, it would be entirely appropriate to allow the citizens of every country to participate in the election of an American president. As that is not yet possible, the SEP candidates will utilize the elections to develop a conscious sense of international unity among American working people and their class brothers and sisters all over the world. ｡ｱ(You can find it on www.wsws.org)

  That's the way how the real opposition could be waged. By offering the superior alternative, instead of a blind alley of bankrupted petty-bourgeois nationalism.

  Your help is welcomed!
  
  Goran Mihajlovic
  Yugoslavia

• Sunday February 01, 2004 at 4:09 am
  

  Ian Davis has introduced an important and meaningful topic of comparison between Canada-Quebec situation and Yugoslavia. To him, and other Canadian friends, I post the following few excerpts from the important statement from the World Socialist Web Site:

  The socialist standpoint on the 1995 Quebec referendum on secession

  link

  Oppose Quebec separatism and the defence of Canada!

  Unite French- and English-speaking and immigrant workers against Chretien and Parizeau!

  Separatism and the politics of nationalism and ethno-linguistic chauvinism are a trap for the working class. They deflect workers' anger at the misery produced by capitalism away from the profit system and, by splitting the working class, render it helpless before globally-organized capital.

  In opposing the separatists, workers must give no support whatsoever to their bourgeois opponents organized in the No Committee. To separatism, the No Committee counterposes reactionary Canadian nationalism and defence of the federal state, the instrument through which the bourgeoisie has exercised itsdomination for more than 125 years. The working class has no more interest in propping up the Canadian state than it does in supporting the establishment of a capitalist Quebec.

  The separatists and their allies in the trade union bureaucracy claim that all political options are subsumed in the two rival bourgeois camps, that opposition to separatism equals support for the federal state. This is a crude attempt to straitjacket the working class, to prevent it from adopting an independent class viewpoint. Indeed, the referendum law itself seeks to legally muzzle those who advocate that the working class oppose both bourgeois camps and advance a program that corresponds to its own independent class interests. The law, which was drafted by the PQ under Rene Levesque and upheld by subsequent provincial Liberal governments, threatens any working class party or trade union that intervenes in the referendum campaign independently of the big business Yes and NO committees with severe legal penalties.

  All these concepts serve to obscure the class divisions that beset Canadian and Quebec society. The two fundamental and opposed camps into which Canadian society is split are not the federalists and Quebec separatists, are not the Québécois and English-Canadians. No, the real divide is between the tiny minority of capitalists who control the wealth and the vast majority, the workers, who possess only their ability to work.

  Quebec workers are victims of class, not "national," oppression. The problems they face—chronic unemployment, declining living standards and a deterioration in the qualityof life—are common to workers across Canada.

  Were the working class armed with a socialist program it could take advantage of the profound crisis wracking the Canadian bourgeoisie and its state to take the offensive. But because of the betrayal of the traditional labor organizations, the working class is in grave danger of being polarized along national-ethnic and linguistic lines.

  If workers do not resolutely oppose all the rival big business factions in the constitutional crisis, they will be sucked into this inter-capitalist power struggle and be pitted against each other on regional and national-ethnic lines, just as surely as workers from different companies and even different plants have been pitted against one another in the corporate struggle for market share and profits. The dangers such a development would constitute for the working class have been graphically demonstrated by the nightmare in the former Yugoslavia.
  
  Goran Mihajlovic
  Yugoslavia

• Sunday February 01, 2004 at 7:58 am
  

  A little Lenin anyone?

  [ON THE NATIONAL AND THE COLONIAL QUESTIONS]
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Shangrei-La

• Sunday February 01, 2004 at 8:04 am
  

  The characteristic feature of imperialism consists in the whole world ... being divided into a large number of oppressed nations and an insignificant number of oppressor nations, the latter possessing colossal wealth and powerful armed forces. The vast majority of the world's population ... belong to the oppressed nations, which are either in a state of direct colonial dependence or are semi-colonies..

  V.I.Lenin
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Shangri-La

• Sunday February 01, 2004 at 8:11 am
  

  Marxists are opposed to all forms of national, linguistic and racial oppression and we will fight against all forms of national oppression. But Lenin never said that Marxists must support the national bourgeoisie or the nationalist petty bourgeoisie. On the contrary, the fundamental premise of Lenin's position on the national question was of absolute class independence.

  from Onte e Hoxe
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Shangri-La

• Sunday February 01, 2004 at 8:14 am
  

  Class Equality resolves the National question of all Peoples!
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Shangri-La

• Sunday February 01, 2004 at 8:47 am
  I admire your irony Gogol, check this out> http://english.pravda.ru/mailbox/22/98/387/11928_space.html
  
  Mrya Antonov
  Rossija

• Sunday February 01, 2004 at 10:42 am
  To all those well intention individuals who suggest various solutions to the worlds problems I respectfully submit the following...Horse hockey.

  It's all been tried before. 'There is nothing new under the sun' boys and girls, only new names, wrappings and other various trappings.

  You see the problems you seek to fix are not systemic, but in fact it's and human thing. In short, we are born wrong.

  You can repackage every idea the 'Great thinkers' of the human race has ever had and it amounts to dung as some sinful group of human debris still has to adminster it. We're born wrong.

  Talk all you like about what you would do 'if you were King', but I don't buy it for a moment. People are people and very few ever act for nobility sake and even those that appear to most often have alterior motives.

  Someone in here once posted a quote from the Gospel of John in an attack on the Jewish people. John 8:44 while directed at the political heads of a religious farce applies to all of mankind from Adam to Ascroft whether he likes it or not. We're born wrong.

  Denying God's revelation concerning our nature and the unique predicament it places us in leads to insanity in otherwise intelligent people.

  This was his obvious intent. Acknowledge him or be doomed to chase your tale down though history. After all it is HIS STORY you know.
  
  Joel Aksamit
  Cleveland
  Mo

• Sunday February 01, 2004 at 10:54 am
  Americans donｴt have any history and their "country" is built upon a terrible genocide. What happens when a tre year old lunatic greedy boy rules the world?
  
  Sasha Mikoyan
  Altai oblast

• Sunday February 01, 2004 at 11:46 am
  Joel Aksamit: I sympathize with your problem! What an injustice! You have obeyed and followed Him, but nevertheless didn't escape the destiny of being "led to insanity in otherwise intelligent people" Such a sad situation! Even He would get a headache! Maybe that痴 why He died, but failed to inform you.
  
  Goran Mihajlovic
  Yugoslavia

• Sunday February 01, 2004 at 12:14 pm
  Joel Aksamit: Since im an infantile dreamer who see money in the horizon and belives in western-utopia, i sympathize with your problem! What an injustice! You have obeyed like i obay my new masterｴs every litle wink, and followed Him, but nevertheless didn't escape the destiny of being "led to insanity in otherwise intelligent people" Such a sad situation, but iｴm gonna be rich because my master say so, letｴs go west!
  
  Goran Mihajlovic
  Yugoslavia

• Sunday February 01, 2004 at 1:55 pm
  

  Mrya

  I know about the landing in the Moon. Aware of the scientific and space shortcomings the Americans tried to give the credit of Russian accomplishments to German sciences instead, a story was circulated about an American satellite saying to the Sputnik, Jetz wir sind allein, so wir k�nnen Deutsch sprechen

  
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Shangri-La

• Sunday February 01, 2004 at 3:10 pm
  Unfortunately, I have been too busy with my work for the last two months to participate here. And not only did I have my usual workload unusually enlarged, I also started to take a small part in directly helping the Milosevic defence, with translations and research. After being able to lay my hands on the original documents from the ICTY, my low opinion of them had sunk to new lows. The sheer quantity of material is their only hope. I have been following the discussion here, witnessing some great recent contributors (and I don稚 mean those foul-mouthed, confused or na�ve, of course, but those like John North). Regular participants are regularly good.

  Since I知 in the translating mode now, here痴 my translation of an article from yesterday痴 Belgrade daily VECERNJE NOVOSTI, an interview with a Bosnian Serb Simo Zaric who had served his 6-year sentence passed by the Tribunal for being a local official during the civil war (who actually helped alleviate some war troubles). He gave an interesting insight into the murky world of the Scheveningen detention centre and into the attitude of the inmates towards Milosevic (whom they supposedly hate for doing no good or not doing enough or whatever). He also gave a firsthand peek into the ICTY with its dirty plea-bargaining, lying witnesses and judges who wouldn稚 play ball so they had to leave (note how Zaric gives examples of these judges being fair even to some Muslims accused - the man is obviously nationality-blind). No high politics here, only a view of a simple man caught up in the big machinery. And not a broken man, either. Quite the opposite: a proud straightforward man. And married to a Muslim woman, apparently (again, nationality-blind and convicted of helping ethnic cleansing). Something just doesn稚 click here.

  [start quote] ON THE HAGUE CRUCIFIX - Vid Blagojevic - 31 January 2004 - SAMAC [a town in Republika Srpska] - Simo Zaric did consent to speak to VECERNJE NOVOSTI about his days at The Hague and about the court he called political. - I have nothing to hide: if, God forbid, a war should break out anew, I would do everything the same way, even if I ended up at The Hague once more - he said at the beginning of our conversation. - It was hard to endure 1.664 days in prison, particularly when you know you池e not guilty.

  - I drew strength from the support of my family - wife, children, mother and sisters. They came to visit, they wrote me letters. A huge support also arrived from my fellow citizens of Samac, the whole Posavina [a region of the Sava river valley], Republika Srpska and even from the Federation of Bosnia & Herzegovina and ex-Yugoslavia. There were thousands of letters that I received, and I answered each one of them - Simo Zaric begins his story.

  Conditions at The Hague were bearable when food and hygiene are concerned. Free time should be aplenty in prison. However�

  - Each morning we got up at 7 a.m. and went to bed at 8.30 p.m. on weekdays. On weekends, the taps was at 5 p.m. We were in complete isolation twice a day while the guards were eating. The rest of the time we spent in the canteen or kitchen, as we called it. Only the detainees from the same floor can use the area. Here we played chess, dominoes, and card games, watched TV, talked about the simplest human things. We could not walk between floors - Simo describes a day in prison.

  HOW TO CONQUER TIME - DURING imprisonment I致e read more than 500 books, I致e written thousands of pages of the diary that I kept daily and I致e published a book 徹n The Hague Crucifix� - Zaric continues. I致e dedicated a lot of time to the proceedings as well, that was held for more than two years, so that sometimes the time was scarce. Part of it we spent walking, taking part in sport� A man who knows that he should conquer time knows how to organize a prison life for himself. It is far more difficult to conquer for men who become withdrawn and develop psychological problems.

  All the accused Serbs were forgotten by many of those not expected to do that. Simo Zaric wishes to emphasize they were not abandoned by everyone.

  - It would be a sin to forget the support that we had from the SPC [Serbian Orthodox Church] representatives. The Church gave us moral, spiritual and human support - points out the former prisoner at The Hague. - We had priests who visited us every month and held prayers. Bishop Luka and Amfilohije Radovic came many times. Their spiritual presence meant a lot to us. When reading religious literature, in each of these books I found how one has to be kind, moral and righteous in life and all those messages are most human and most wonderful. I regret that I致e started to be engaged in this kind of literature and personal spiritual rebirth only after my destiny had brought me to The Hague.

  Zaric was spending his prison days with detainees from his floor: Momcilo Krajisnik, Dragan Obrenovic, Dragan Nikolic - Jenki, Generals Dragoljub Ojdanic and Mile Mrksic, Mario Cerkez, Milorad Krnojelac, Ranko Cesic, Milan Martic and Milan Mrdja.

  - I had the opportunity to meet Mr Milosevic several times and I found him to be a very natural man and I believe that he had surprised everyone with his naturalness and spontaneity - speaks Zaric. - Destiny of a detainee at The Hague is a very strange one, here you have very brave people, people who hold their face and dignity dear. On the other hand, there are those who fall under certain pressures both from the OTP and a certain atmosphere at the court.

  GOOD JUDGES UNDESIRABLE - I BELIEVE that Milosevic is defending on principle a strategic component related to the Serbian national corpus. I have an impression that Krajisnik will not succumb to any influences either and I base this belief on our talks that we held for days. Those certainly not succumbing to pressures are Martic, General Ojdanic and others who had already underwent a court procedure - Simo Zaric is categorical.

  -These people have guts to speak up in the language of truth and, to make it clear, they do not defend crimes and nobody does support crimes, but these people have the need to speak up in the name of the Serbian national corpus with the purpose of preserving its identity.

  A judge at The Hague who speaks up in the language of justice, morality and truth gets removed immediately. Zaric substantiates these examples:

  - Judge Lindholm had gathered his strength to defend law and had the courage to defend the truth in my case, by requesting my acquittal. In the pleiad of such people there is by all means the Australian Judge Hunt. Then there is the esteemed Judge Wald, otherwise an American lady, who had acquitted brothers Kupreskic or Judge Cassese who had acquitted Papic and Zejnil Delalic. None of them is a judge at The Hague anymore. Judges who gather their strength to resist pressures and mentorship imposed on them leave very quickly. Judge Hunt said in his farewell statement that if The Hague Tribunal were to be recognized by the manner of conducting its appeal proceedings and dispensing justice, it would be a black spot in the world痴 legal system. The one who ends up at The Hague will be convicted not with justice, but because he had passed through a political prism. The OTP disregards facts obvious even to a small child. There are 杜illion� arguments to support that, but Zaric says he will stay close to the 鉄amac case�.

  MY GREATEST VICTORY - PEOPLE who testified in our case came prepared by a secret service of the Muslims, AID, on what and how they would speak against us - maintains Zaric. - They were mainly secret witnesses and I am a disciplined man and shall not reveal their names. What痴 essential is that these testimonies were rigged. And the OTP builds upon such invented statements later on and then the battle for the truth gets really difficult. Witnesses for the Prosecution do not even blush when their statements are refuted with arguments. Unlike them, witnesses for the Defence of various nationalities came to testify publicly, not hiding from anyone. In my case, 35 witnesses appeared and more than 80% were the Muslims and the Croats from Samac. They knew best what was he like and who is in fact Simo Zaric.

  By the end of the conversation Simo Zaric wishes to say that his greatest victory is in enduring it all and being able, although a pensioner before all this had even started, to begin a new life. This new life, as he says, will be dedicated to family, to his native village Trnjak in the Municipality of Odzak (Federation of Bosnia & Herzegovina) and his desire to bring back and breathe a new life into it. If a party appears or if one exists that will satisfy his views, perhaps he will become politically active.

  The Hague Tribunal had passed long-term custodial sentences on five people from Samac. Simo was imprisoned for being a distinguished member of the community, Miroslav Tadic is imprisoned for working in the municipal commissions for exchange, and so forth. That justice doesn稚 dwell at The Hague could be best seen from the fact that Amor Masovic, the President of the Commission for Exchange of the Federation of Bosnia & Herzegovina, is being proposed for the Nobel Prize, and Miroslav Tadic is sentenced to eight year痴 imprisonment.

  In addition to them, a native of Samac was also Alija Izetbegovic, then there was Sulejman Tihic, but the 屠ustice of The Hague� has never reached them.

  FATIMA IS - FATIMA - DRAGAN Lukac, currently executing a high office in the security of Bosnia & Herzegovina, as a witness for the Prosecution alleged there was an event when Simo Zaric renamed his wife Fatima to Jevrosima at some kind of secret religious s饌nce during the war.

  - After my wife, myself and many other witnesses had stated that this was a blatant lie, Mr Lukac said without a shred of remorse that he still maintained this to be true. Therefore I cannot believe that such a man could currently execute any office at all. [end quote]

  Well, I certainly can believe that. But it痴 beyond belief what kind of thin gossip the OTP peddles as evidence. The woman痴 ID still says 擢atima�, but the witness sticks to his guns. However, people get jailed on the basis of such rubbish, so it痴 hardly funny.
  
  Vera Martinovic
  Belgrade
  Yugoslavia

• Sunday February 01, 2004 at 3:10 pm
  Unfortunately, I have been too busy with my work for the last two months to participate here. And not only did I have my usual workload unusually enlarged, I also started to take a small part in directly helping the Milosevic defence, with translations and research. After being able to lay my hands on the original documents from the ICTY, my low opinion of them had sunk to new lows. The sheer quantity of material is their only hope. I have been following the discussion here, witnessing some great recent contributors (and I don稚 mean those foul-mouthed, confused or na�ve, of course, but those like John North). Regular participants are regularly good.

  Since I知 in the translating mode now, here痴 my translation of an article from yesterday痴 Belgrade daily VECERNJE NOVOSTI, an interview with a Bosnian Serb Simo Zaric who had served his 6-year sentence passed by the Tribunal for being a local official during the civil war (who actually helped alleviate some war troubles). He gave an interesting insight into the murky world of the Scheveningen detention centre and into the attitude of the inmates towards Milosevic (whom they supposedly hate for doing no good or not doing enough or whatever). He also gave a firsthand peek into the ICTY with its dirty plea-bargaining, lying witnesses and judges who wouldn稚 play ball so they had to leave (note how Zaric gives examples of these judges being fair even to some Muslims accused - the man is obviously nationality-blind). No high politics here, only a view of a simple man caught up in the big machinery. And not a broken man, either. Quite the opposite: a proud straightforward man. And married to a Muslim woman, apparently (again, nationality-blind and convicted of helping ethnic cleansing). Something just doesn稚 click here.

  [start quote] ON THE HAGUE CRUCIFIX - Vid Blagojevic - 31 January 2004 - SAMAC [a town in Republika Srpska] - Simo Zaric did consent to speak to VECERNJE NOVOSTI about his days at The Hague and about the court he called political. - I have nothing to hide: if, God forbid, a war should break out anew, I would do everything the same way, even if I ended up at The Hague once more - he said at the beginning of our conversation. - It was hard to endure 1.664 days in prison, particularly when you know you池e not guilty.

  - I drew strength from the support of my family - wife, children, mother and sisters. They came to visit, they wrote me letters. A huge support also arrived from my fellow citizens of Samac, the whole Posavina [a region of the Sava river valley], Republika Srpska and even from the Federation of Bosnia & Herzegovina and ex-Yugoslavia. There were thousands of letters that I received, and I answered each one of them - Simo Zaric begins his story.

  Conditions at The Hague were bearable when food and hygiene are concerned. Free time should be aplenty in prison. However�

  - Each morning we got up at 7 a.m. and went to bed at 8.30 p.m. on weekdays. On weekends, the taps was at 5 p.m. We were in complete isolation twice a day while the guards were eating. The rest of the time we spent in the canteen or kitchen, as we called it. Only the detainees from the same floor can use the area. Here we played chess, dominoes, and card games, watched TV, talked about the simplest human things. We could not walk between floors - Simo describes a day in prison.

  HOW TO CONQUER TIME - DURING imprisonment I致e read more than 500 books, I致e written thousands of pages of the diary that I kept daily and I致e published a book 徹n The Hague Crucifix� - Zaric continues. I致e dedicated a lot of time to the proceedings as well, that was held for more than two years, so that sometimes the time was scarce. Part of it we spent walking, taking part in sport� A man who knows that he should conquer time knows how to organize a prison life for himself. It is far more difficult to conquer for men who become withdrawn and develop psychological problems.

  All the accused Serbs were forgotten by many of those not expected to do that. Simo Zaric wishes to emphasize they were not abandoned by everyone.

  - It would be a sin to forget the support that we had from the SPC [Serbian Orthodox Church] representatives. The Church gave us moral, spiritual and human support - points out the former prisoner at The Hague. - We had priests who visited us every month and held prayers. Bishop Luka and Amfilohije Radovic came many times. Their spiritual presence meant a lot to us. When reading religious literature, in each of these books I found how one has to be kind, moral and righteous in life and all those messages are most human and most wonderful. I regret that I致e started to be engaged in this kind of literature and personal spiritual rebirth only after my destiny had brought me to The Hague.

  Zaric was spending his prison days with detainees from his floor: Momcilo Krajisnik, Dragan Obrenovic, Dragan Nikolic - Jenki, Generals Dragoljub Ojdanic and Mile Mrksic, Mario Cerkez, Milorad Krnojelac, Ranko Cesic, Milan Martic and Milan Mrdja.

  - I had the opportunity to meet Mr Milosevic several times and I found him to be a very natural man and I believe that he had surprised everyone with his naturalness and spontaneity - speaks Zaric. - Destiny of a detainee at The Hague is a very strange one, here you have very brave people, people who hold their face and dignity dear. On the other hand, there are those who fall under certain pressures both from the OTP and a certain atmosphere at the court.

  GOOD JUDGES UNDESIRABLE - I BELIEVE that Milosevic is defending on principle a strategic component related to the Serbian national corpus. I have an impression that Krajisnik will not succumb to any influences either and I base this belief on our talks that we held for days. Those certainly not succumbing to pressures are Martic, General Ojdanic and others who had already underwent a court procedure - Simo Zaric is categorical.

  -These people have guts to speak up in the language of truth and, to make it clear, they do not defend crimes and nobody does support crimes, but these people have the need to speak up in the name of the Serbian national corpus with the purpose of preserving its identity.

  A judge at The Hague who speaks up in the language of justice, morality and truth gets removed immediately. Zaric substantiates these examples:

  - Judge Lindholm had gathered his strength to defend law and had the courage to defend the truth in my case, by requesting my acquittal. In the pleiad of such people there is by all means the Australian Judge Hunt. Then there is the esteemed Judge Wald, otherwise an American lady, who had acquitted brothers Kupreskic or Judge Cassese who had acquitted Papic and Zejnil Delalic. None of them is a judge at The Hague anymore. Judges who gather their strength to resist pressures and mentorship imposed on them leave very quickly. Judge Hunt said in his farewell statement that if The Hague Tribunal were to be recognized by the manner of conducting its appeal proceedings and dispensing justice, it would be a black spot in the world痴 legal system. The one who ends up at The Hague will be convicted not with justice, but because he had passed through a political prism. The OTP disregards facts obvious even to a small child. There are 杜illion� arguments to support that, but Zaric says he will stay close to the 鉄amac case�.

  MY GREATEST VICTORY - PEOPLE who testified in our case came prepared by a secret service of the Muslims, AID, on what and how they would speak against us - maintains Zaric. - They were mainly secret witnesses and I am a disciplined man and shall not reveal their names. What痴 essential is that these testimonies were rigged. And the OTP builds upon such invented statements later on and then the battle for the truth gets really difficult. Witnesses for the Prosecution do not even blush when their statements are refuted with arguments. Unlike them, witnesses for the Defence of various nationalities came to testify publicly, not hiding from anyone. In my case, 35 witnesses appeared and more than 80% were the Muslims and the Croats from Samac. They knew best what was he like and who is in fact Simo Zaric.

  By the end of the conversation Simo Zaric wishes to say that his greatest victory is in enduring it all and being able, although a pensioner before all this had even started, to begin a new life. This new life, as he says, will be dedicated to family, to his native village Trnjak in the Municipality of Odzak (Federation of Bosnia & Herzegovina) and his desire to bring back and breathe a new life into it. If a party appears or if one exists that will satisfy his views, perhaps he will become politically active.

  The Hague Tribunal had passed long-term custodial sentences on five people from Samac. Simo was imprisoned for being a distinguished member of the community, Miroslav Tadic is imprisoned for working in the municipal commissions for exchange, and so forth. That justice doesn稚 dwell at The Hague could be best seen from the fact that Amor Masovic, the President of the Commission for Exchange of the Federation of Bosnia & Herzegovina, is being proposed for the Nobel Prize, and Miroslav Tadic is sentenced to eight year痴 imprisonment.

  In addition to them, a native of Samac was also Alija Izetbegovic, then there was Sulejman Tihic, but the 屠ustice of The Hague� has never reached them.

  FATIMA IS - FATIMA - DRAGAN Lukac, currently executing a high office in the security of Bosnia & Herzegovina, as a witness for the Prosecution alleged there was an event when Simo Zaric renamed his wife Fatima to Jevrosima at some kind of secret religious s饌nce during the war.

  - After my wife, myself and many other witnesses had stated that this was a blatant lie, Mr Lukac said without a shred of remorse that he still maintained this to be true. Therefore I cannot believe that such a man could currently execute any office at all. [end quote]

  Well, I certainly can believe that. But it痴 beyond belief what kind of thin gossip the OTP peddles as evidence. The woman痴 ID still says 擢atima�, but the witness sticks to his guns. However, people get jailed on the basis of such rubbish, so it痴 hardly funny.
  
  Vera Martinovic
  Belgrade
  Yugoslavia

• Sunday February 01, 2004 at 4:02 pm
  

  I strongly believe that this site is playing very important role in filling gap created by refusal of the media houses to properly and fairly cover the trial of Mr. Milosevic. Lack of serious political and legal analyses makes this site very valuable information source about events that would be otherwise hidden from the interested public that is visiting it. The amount of document transcripts and video material produced on the daily bases in The Hague is huge. By shearing responsibility in reading, watching and analyzing these sources interested participants are improving their knowledge and understanding of this trial and sharing the burden of digesting the news.

  My impression is that the participants that are arguing that the trial is unfair are winning because arguments against there position are not existent. Parties that are loosing the battle on the argumentative bases are changing the course of the discussion. They are most often trying to change the issue that is discussed, or to drag people into discussing certain minor issues, or to change its theme or to convert the discussion into fruitless exchange of obscenities words. Their cause is lost and what they are doing is waste of time.

  Participants of this site that want to convert it into socialist discussion group are doing great mis-service to all others. There are numerous very good sites that are oriented toward discussion and exchange of opinions on the issues of concern for the socialists. In an attempt to over flood this site with their articles they are sabotaging very useful discussion that is going on. So, please, let this unique site play its unique role. To me this site, except for being main source of valuable information and analyses, is a sanity measurement tool of the activities that are going on in The ICTY and what I think about tragedy that is still going in the countries of Former Yugoslavia. Any honest democratic institution would be honored to have such a measurement tool or overlooking board. I think that this is why Jurist have started this site and I am grateful to them for the grate work that they are doing..

  The measurements are needed on the daily bases. Thanks to the discussion that is going on I have conclude that what is going on in The ICTY is INSANE.

  Who is afraid of the truth?

  Vera velcome back!
  
  Pera Bora
  Ottawa
  Canada

• Sunday February 01, 2004 at 6:02 pm
  Good to have you back, Vera. I hope you'll find the time to contribute more regularly once again. Thanks for the very interesting translation. I think everyone on this board will be happy to hear that you're now helping the Milosevic defense.
  
  Robert Hessen
  Seattle
  Washington

• Sunday February 01, 2004 at 7:18 pm
  Goran, you seem to operate from the presumption that the socialist position on any subject is the correct one; all others being no more than an attempt to hide the truth from the masses. I am a little uncomfortable with that as a base line, because it differs very little from the willingness of masses everywhere to follow the party line rather than to examine carefully and criticize the party line. I have seen masses here lead down very wrong paths through nothing more than their own willingness to be so led by others wiser than themselves.

  I do not agree with you on your premise that all would be well if workers took over the world. To the extent that I've thought about it, I would instead recommend that workers do what workers do best -- specifically work, and that appointed leaders do what leaders do best -- specifically lead.

  I readily acknowledge that not all leaders are to be trusted, and thus think it should be the workers job to keep their leadership honest, be those workers the police, the courts, the whistle blowers, the cleaners of leaders offices, etc. I also strongly approve of spending limits on political campaigns, and a newly introduced system in Canada which makes it much harder for corporate interests to buy the affection of politicians.

  I do not personally advocate more power to the worker, but rather less corrupting power being the privy of the wealthy. I want a more equitable society which works; not a society where the poor become wealthy and the wealthy poor. Under those terms the more things change the more they will stay the same.

  Thanks for the material posted on Quebec separation. The Quebec government [and I would think the majority of the separatists] would have been considered much more radically socialist than the rest of Canada. Indeed Quebec has a long tradition of being very sympathetic to strong socialist leadership.

  But between Quebec and the rest of Canada there is a game played, which those in Quebec fail to see very clearly. They see the wealthy oppressors in times past as being the rich anglophone (ie. English speaking) land owners, lumber barons, factory barons, etc... and they have a tendency to emotively see their second class status within Canada then, and their defeat at the hands of the British then, as the fault of Anglophone Canada today. Quebec even celebrates yearly their understood status as "victim" of it all.

  But what they do not see very clearly is that the only reason why they were not oppressed as much by French land owners, and French factory barons, was because it was hard to climb to the top back then if one was French. They also fail to see clearly that these same land, factory, and lumber barons, were doing to the English masses in Ontario precisely what they were doing to the French masses in Quebec. To them the Quebec/Ontario border was no more than a line on a map. To a large extent Ontario has moved on because to us, the past is only one force shaping the future, the present being the other. But to many in Quebec past wrongs explain present identification as victim, and by explaining it, deny the opportunity for the present to be a force any different from the past in helping shape future.

  This is much as you have posted, but with a subtle difference. This is not something the system has inflicted on the masses, but something that the masses have inflicted on both themselves and the system.

  I have always been quite convinced that Canada hung together, or Canada hung separately. In Quebec, the dynamic is one Quebec versus nine other provinces. But the bigger picture is that while one in four Canadians lives in Quebec, Canada is itself only ten provinces next to 50 states, and for every Canadian there are ten Americans.

  Once Canada had started breaking apart, I think that the reality would have been that provinces competed with provinces to exit Canada faster, the better to join the US, just as the federal republics in Yugoslavia were falling over themselves to join the EU.

  Even the politicians in Quebec while advocating separation, used as part of their argument in favour of separation that if things were not better after separation, then Quebec could always join the US.
  
  Ian Davis
  Waterloo
  Ontario, Canada

• Sunday February 01, 2004 at 7:43 pm
  Welcome back Vera.

  It is encouraging that there are principled judges who understand the meaning of

  independent judiciary, rule of Law, and due process. These judges who accepted a position at The Hague came uninformed but they did not allow power to corrupt them. I guess it is true that power tends to manifest human nature in order to serve a higher calling. In Mr. May痴 case he abuses power in order to serve his masters.

  Ian there are some who provide evidence that Hitler was reacting to events and opportunities provided by others for his actions. A.J.P. Taylor, for example, names Chamberlain as the man who provided him with the opportunity to make war. Chamberlain was opposed to Baldwin痴 indecisiveness and he did not believe in multilateralism as the Munich Conference indicates. His policies were bilateral. His decisions by consensus at the expense of smaller nations and the Soviet Union do not absolve him of responsibility for WWII. We can see these policies at work presently in Britain and America.

  Like the Bush administration in Congress, Chamberlain took the lead in pressuring the parliament for more armaments even to the point of selling some of these armaments to the Germans. The British soldiers were surprised to be under attack by British made tanks at Dunkirk. The Soviets saw these sales and accommodations of Hitler as anti Soviet, therefore, it was not surprising that the Soviets signed the Russo German Non Aggression Pact.

  He was also an apologist for the Nazis as were some lords and ladies in the British establishment. He saw German grievances as legitimate which included East Prussia, Sudetenland, Polish Corridor and other areas where millions of German citizens lived under foreign rule. I would conclude, somewhat similar to present day Serbian grievances.

  Chamberlain, and many non Marxists, accepted the Marxist view, of economic determinism as a cause of German grievances since the Germans were shut out of world markets and foreign trade by the fathers of the League.. Somewhat similar to the policies of IMF, The World Bank and the West in their coordinated plan to destabilize and partition Yugoslavia.

  Chamberlain accepted the view that the Germans were victims of Clemenceau痴 revanche. His hope for 菟eace in our time� was based on the idea that once German legitimate grievances were met they would be pacified. He was wrong in Ireland and he was wrong in India as neither was pacified. He misjudged Ireland, India and Germany since the two former nations wanted independence and the latter wanted world domination as can be seen in Mein Kampf.

  To what extent did Chamberlain open the door for Hitler痴 policies is a moot point but it is certain that as the door was opened, and Chamberlain did give the door a big push, Hitler did not hesitate to walk through it? Since there is no 鼎lass Equality� today as Gogol, David and Goran write and since there was no class equality prior to WWII 創ational questions� were not solved nor will they until such time when the world achieves both political and economic equality.

  Was Chamberlain guilty for using the policy of pacification in order to satisfy national grievances and wanting what was best for Great Britain? No! That was the policy of the day that failed. We can judge someone in retrospect but he should not be convicted. Furthermore, the majority of the ruling class was with him including Edward VIII.

  Most nations at that time were acting in self interest and Britain and France used the policy of appeasement for self interest. The fact that it opened the door for Hitler, he did not expect it to point toward Great Britain. Did Chamberlain want war? Not against Britain I am sure but his hands are not clean in Hitler痴 Drang nach Osten.

  I am not sure Ian if you are aware that during the Quebec referendum plans were in place by the Anglophone ministers to replace Chr騁ien and seize all the ministries from the Quebec ministers. Also I am not sure if you are aware that Northern Quebec, Ottawa Valley and parts of Montreal had no intention of staying in Quebec. I was sure at that time as I am sure today that people in these areas would have taken up guns to stay in Canada.

  Parizeau became concerned and started squawking about Quebec borders being protected by International Law. This was very similar to the Yugoslav issue and I was shocked that our government wanted unity for Canada but helped to partition Yugoslavia. Any fool, of course, would want unity over partition but national self interests makes fools out of even the most informed.

  Goran, separatist movement in Quebec like that in Croatia had as much to do with the stigma of conquest and the feeling of inferiority complex as with economics. Nether was satisfied with playing a partnership role even though most of the time it was Quebecers or Croats who had more people in the ministries than their population warranted. I think that Canada and Quebec are richer by the results of the referendum while Croatia and Yugoslavia are poorer by their division.
  
  Walter Trkla
  Kamloops BC
  Canada

• Sunday February 01, 2004 at 8:44 pm
  Who still remembers, these days, two famous Canadians Elijah Harper and Clyde Wells who recently saved Canada by defeating the Meach Lake Accord on Consensus.
  
  Pera Bora
  Ottawa
  Canad

• Sunday February 01, 2004 at 10:10 pm
  

  Apart from the fact that one cannot discern any coherent political perspective from illogical and self-contradictory statements of most of the participants, one must admit that they sometimes do manage to underscore the utterly reactionary and bankrupt outlook of this forum. The case in point: “…the willingness of masses everywhere to follow the party line rather than to examine carefully and criticize the party line. I have seen masses here lead down very wrong paths through nothing more than their own willingness to be so led by others wiser than themselves. I do not agree with you on your premise that all would be well if workers took over the world. To the extent that I've thought about it, I would instead recommend that workers do what workers do best -- specifically work, and that appointed leaders do what leaders do best -- specifically lead…”

  In that respect, forum will be assisted by yet another petty-bourgeois Serbian nationalist Vera Martinovic. Her narrow nationalist outlook, engaged in extensive waste of time on trifles, and all that coming from the place which is dieing into fascism, apparently gives her the feeling of such an intellectual supremacy that she can, from her Munchen pub in Belgrade，look from above on us “confused or naive.” Would she mind to teach us what is the way out from the basement of Serbian politics?
  
  Goran Mihajlovic
  Yugoslavia

• Sunday February 01, 2004 at 10:20 pm
  Vera Martinovic: Nedojebana pichko beogradska, malogradjanska, matora.
  
  ........ ..........
  ........

• Sunday February 01, 2004 at 11:44 pm
  At this moment this is not a socialist web site yet.
  
  Pero Peric
  Canada

• Monday February 02, 2004 at 12:34 am
  Walter, I am aware that the following would have been flash points should Quebec have voted yes to separation. (1) the Ottawa region of Quebec declared that if Quebec separated from Canada that they in turn would immediately separate from Quebec. [Aside: the driving concern here was a near universal concern for those on the Quebec side of the Ottawa river about massive losses in property values, should the Ottawa region cease to be part of Canada]. I am aware that the Quebec government declared that it would put down any such attempt using all necessary military force. (2) I am aware that Northern Quebec (near 100% cree) voted 97% against separation and would have insisted on remaining within Canada. Under the Indian act the Canadian federal government would have beeb obligations to forcefully defend the interests of the Cree, should their rights subsequently be threatened by a hostile Quebec government. (3) I am aware that secret instructions by the Quebec government was given to the army stationed in Quebec that following a yes vote, the army would no longer take orders from the Queen, but only from the newly established Quebec state, and this would have seen the army effectively at war within itself. The order itself was an act of treason, sensibly ignored, given the outcome of the vote. (4) I am aware that large tracts of land claimed by Labrador was ceded to Quebec in recognition of Quebec's membership in Canada and that borders here would have been disputed after separation. (5) I am also aware that Quebecs policy was to walk away from its responsibility for supporting Canada's national debt, and that the English Economist proposed that Canada should pay 80% of claims on Canada bonds etc. with claimants instructed to get the other 20% from Quebec if they could. (6) This issue here was made more complicated by the fact that 24% of Canadian funding had been invested in Quebec, and some argued that therefore Quebec should be considered responsible for at least 24% of our national debt. (6) I am also aware that France had secretly agreed to immediately recognise Quebec as a new nation, following a yes vote, and were behind the scenes insisting that the Quebec government must immediately declare unilateral independence, despite assurances by the Quebec government to Canada that a yes vote would only authorise the Quebec government to negotiate the terms of separation.

  I'm probably very much in the minority here, but I've always believed that Canada came very close to the very civil war than no one believed possible here. As such it is natural for me to identify with the plight of Yugoslavia, and to see in Yugoslavia civil war echoes of the Canada that wasn't. What has seemed always extremely ironic is that Canada effectively supported the right of Kosovo (a region of Serbia) to unilaterally separate from Serbia, while ignoring the Canada's own supreme court which following request for clarification from the Canadian government ruled that unilateral separation by Quebec (the equivalent of a federal republic) constituted an illegal act under international law.

  If I am wrong on any of these points feel free to correct me.
  
  Ian Davis
  Waterloo
  Ontario, Canada

• Monday February 02, 2004 at 12:54 am
  On the subject of Meech Lake the central issue was the degree to which giving provinces ever greater powers would weaken the federal government to the point where Canada would break up as a consequence of trying to appease those whose at least secondary agenda was to hasten the break up of Canada.

  I'd hazard a guess that Yugoslav's of every persuasion would see echoes of Yugoslavia's consitutional problems in The Constitutional Crisis and The Meech Lake Accord.
  
  Ian Davis
  Waterloo
  Ontario, Canada

• Monday February 02, 2004 at 1:50 am
  Deda Pera nam se opet ukakio! Lele!Debeli matori srpski nacionalista usred Kanade uneredio. Kako ce da nam u takvom stanju objasni kako je Srpska Radikalna Stranka jedna bezazlena pojava za uveseljavanje prekomorske Srbadije sa virecim prazilukom iz dupeta?
  
  Veseli Jova potomak cara Dusana
  Savez Svih Srpskih Zemalja

• Monday February 02, 2004 at 4:00 am
  HTML Correction
  
  HTML Correction
  U.S.A.

• Monday February 02, 2004 at 4:00 am
  Again
  
  HTML Correction
  U.S.A.

• Monday February 02, 2004 at 6:16 am
  Great article Vera !

  certain it will make it to Andy's site and henceforth to many others.

  keep up the good work
  
  AP V
  NY
  NY

• Monday February 02, 2004 at 6:53 am
  

  Forget Chamberlain, it was that alcoholic with some literary talents, more American than English, who was influencing British Foreign Policy all along. The struggle within the British establishment was how to best preserve the (mercantile) Empire. Have you ever asked yourselves why many an American president are Rhode scholars? As todays multinational corporations expand their global markets as they join forces by conglomerating, etc., so did the British Empire by becoming the recently officially acknowledge American Empire. The Imperial class in Britain rejoice not to have the burden of being the keepers, the Yanks do it, clumsily but effectively!

  The British Army will fight to the last drop of blood of the French soldiers, used to be (how quaint) the slogan, now just replace French by GI and be welcome to the new Imperial Order.

  The US Army has been recently ordered to expand by 30,000 troops to be recruited most likely from the cannon fodder class, namely illegal aliens, the American lumpen proletariat. While the pack of electable presidential candidates avoid talking about the war. One of them, who dully voted for it, now claims he did not mean it. Sounds familiar: I did not inhale or it was not sex and of course he is hiding the w.m.d.

  
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Shangri-La

• Monday February 02, 2004 at 8:10 am
  Joel Aksamit: I sympathize with your problem! What an injustice! You have obeyed and followed Him, but nevertheless didn't escape the destiny of being "led to insanity in otherwise intelligent people" Such a sad situation! Even He would get a headache! Maybe that痴 why He died, but failed to inform you. Goran Mihajlovic YugoslaviaJoel Aksamit: Since im an infantile dreamer who see money in the horizon and belives in western-utopia, i sympathize with your problem! What an injustice! You have obeyed like i obay my new masterｴs every litle wink, and followed Him, but nevertheless didn't escape the destiny of being "led to insanity in otherwise intelligent people" Such a sad situation, but iｴm gonna be rich because my master say so, letｴs go west! Goran Mihajlovic Yugoslavia Americans donｴt have any history and their "country" is built upon a terrible genocide. What happens when a tre year old lunatic greedy boy rules the world? Sasha Mikoyan Altai oblast Just the mere mention of my LORD and man's fallen nature illicits three incoherant rants by two otherwise most likely intelligent people and silience from the masses.

  Isn't there an amen out there? Perhaps your embarrassed for your Lord?

  That might explain alot.
  
  Joel Aksamit
  Cleveland
  Mo/USA ......and land without history

• Monday February 02, 2004 at 8:29 am
  Be humble, go out and do better, hug an native american, recognize him as your brother and stop sending out your imperial troops to kill those who dont includes "the american way of life". We can live without you, you canｴt live without us. Amen.
  
  ... .....
  ...

• Monday February 02, 2004 at 9:53 am
  My letter to New York Times today: Sir,

  The trial of Slobodan Milosevic, former president of Yugoslavia is in its almost third year in The Hague. The trial was labeled to be 典he trial of the Century� Indeed trying an elected leader of a country in the court of International Justice is a rare phenomenon. We are to expect the similar trial of Saddam Husein of Iraq in a near future.

  Yet, the trial of Slobodan Milosevic occupies very rarely the printed pages of this newspaper. The correspondent of New York Times who presumably follows this trial is Ms. Marilise Simons. Therefore the today痴 article was one of these rare occasions used tom inform the reading public about the proceedings.

  However the article entitled: "Another Serb Defendant Stays on His Best Bad Behavior" is used for a very different purpose. By identifying Milosevcic trial, which has used two years by the prosecutors to prove the crimes committed by the accused, is identified with the trial of an other individual, Vojislav Sheshelj whose trial has not yet begun.

  Ms. Simons writes:

  典HE HAGUE - Slobodan Milosevic is being upstaged. For the past two years, the former Yugoslav president has noisily challenged the international tribunal that is trying him for war crimes, by pontificating, denigrating his judges and dismissing his trial as a mere anti-Serb farce. But a fellow Serb, the ultranationalist politician and warlord Vojislav Seselj, is now outdoing the former strongman in insolence. Taken together, their behavior illustrates some of the difficulties this court faces in doing its work. Frustratingly slow at times, it deals with Croat, Muslim and Serbian defendants accused of atrocities in the 1990's wars that broke up Yugoslavia.�

  Anybody who has followed even sporadically, as I did, the trial in The Hague, has gotten quite different impression from the one Ms. Simons is trying to evoke. Whereas Sehelj pre trials shenanigans may be interpreted as being obstructionist band sometimes frivolous, Milosevic defense was methodical, thorough and often curtailed by the court.

  Ms. Simons ends the article by quoting a statement from a director of Human Rights Watch:

  迭ichard Dicker, a director of Human Rights Watch who follows the tribunal, said the repugnant language served to illustrate the kind of racism and hatred with which Serb politicians incited their public for years and which "are at the core of much of the violence" in the former Yugoslavia.�

  The demonization of Serbs is complete under the skillful tutelage of this newspaper, The New York Times.
  
  D. Jovanovic, physicist
  USA

• Monday February 02, 2004 at 10:17 am
  D. Jovanovic,

  Re Saddam Hussein expected to go to trial as you noted in your excellent letter to the New York Times: I heard mention the other day of Saddam being 'confused, etc.' which makes me suspect that he might be declared incompetent to stand trial, ending up spending his days in a mental institution. I belief he likely knows far too much to be allowed to speak publicly. I sincerely hope I am wrong.
  
  M Donne
  Canada

• Monday February 02, 2004 at 10:27 am
  Dear Jason King

  , I spent about 16 yrs of my life working for 哲濡O痴, and perhaps what stands out most in my mind is how much the NGO workplace culture rewarded mediocrity, and punished competence and enquiring minds. Thank you for reminding me of that, and for confirming how right I was to take my severance.

  And thanks also for your discount tour of the Balkan peoples� ethno-psychology. It was most helpful and very healing. We need no further evidence of how much you池e 鍍rying to help.�

  Hard to figure why the Serbs would be less well-disposed toward you Americans than are the Croatians, for example. Surely they must have realized by now that the draconian sanctions to which they were subject for a decade thanks largely to Uncle Sam - which caused their babies to be born with lower birth weights and cranial diameters - , and the DU-laden ordnance dropped on them, were all for their own good, and helped open the gates for 鼎ivil Society.�

  That痴 interesting too about the lower 堵rade� you give to Serbs for tolerance. I know how you 哲濡O school marms like to give out report cards to various countries and peoples on how tolerant they are. (boy, does that bring back memories.) I guess that explains why, since Kosovo was 都elf-determined� with the aid of NATO cluster bombs, most of the non-Albanian population has been driven out by pogroms under NATO担/UNMIK痴 watch, while 10痴 of 1000痴 of ethnic Albanians have lived for decades in Belgrade and environs with no fear for life and limb. I guess it explains why Hitler痴 Mein Kampf was a best-seller in Croatia in 1999, and why the Croatian Krajina has been essentially depopulated of Serbs. I guess it explains why the neo-fascist HDZ won the republic elections in Croatia in 1990, and promptly began bringing Croatian Axis war criminals out of exile, appointing them to plum posts in the government and diplomatic corps, paying higher pensions to fascist Ustashe murderers than to Partizan veterans, while the republic痴 HDZ president continued to revise the Holocaust. Those were the elections in which Croatia痴 Serb minority voted overwhelmingly for the League of Yugoslav Communists, thus registering their chauvinism and backwardness, I gather.

  For a while now I致e been noting the curious incidence with which you 哲濡O types give approving grades for 鍍olerance� to countries whose rulers are prostrating themselves before IMF-ordered 途eforms� and squandering their impoverished citizens� treasuries on weapons purchases which assure their 田andidature� for NATO. So never mind Croatia痴 pogroms and revival of fascist symbols and institutions and collaborators. They were keeners on 撤artnership for Peace� so they must be more tolerant.

  I wonder what exactly the link is between the 哲濡O report cards on 鍍olerance� and 塗uman rights� and the degree of neoliberal immiseration and effective foreign control the country in question is willing to impose on its people? Now that Globalization痴 airforce has pummeled the last vestiges of socialism and public wealth in the former Yugoslavia to rubble, it痴 time for Globalization痴 well-paid social workers in the 渡on-profit� and 砺oluntary� sectors to come in with the band-aids and pious ministrations and help the client/patient-population 電o group� and start to assume the collective responsibility they have for getting themselves bombed.

  I知 as flummoxed as you in understanding why the Serbs wouldn稚 look on with admiration at the people among them with plum gigs paid in hard currency and outfitted with a retinue of drivers, cooks and translators, and sent to them with supporting grants from the governments who dropped all that ordnance on them. They should try harder to look past their personal financial and medical catastrophes and see that you, the 妬nternationals�, the only folks around them living in comfort apart from the Mafiosi, at least are there to help!

  The Serbians should get over the fact that they once had one of the region痴 best health care systems. That痴 history, and the least they could do is step aside and let well-paid Westerners and their 哲濡O痴 take over where their own public health system once was. And there痴 no reason why all the U.S. lawyers sent over there to rewrite the country痴 legal system and tell 鍍he locals� how to conduct their trials and investigations should have to take 殿ttitude� from Serbs. If they壇 just get with the program they could have a criminal justice system on a par with the one in your country, which has the world痴 largest prison population, most of it comprised of members of ethnic minorities. It痴 time for the Serbs to learn American-style tolerance. And it痴 totally appropriate that American lawyers and experts be over there helping to rewrite the legal codes in Serbia and Republika Srpska so that privatization of public assets to Westerners will be allowed, and can be accelerated. This goes right to the core of the most fundamental human rights, doesn稚 it? Surely they should have picked this up from all the workshops, role-playing exercises, and puppet shows. This is what civil society advocacy should be all about. After all, moneybags are people too! And they池e just trying to help. We池e 徹ne World�, so let痴 slap on a Sting album and move forward.

  I知 wondering how you would grade the following passage for 鍍olerance�. In particular, I知 wondering whether such august journals as The European or its like would have published something like this in print, if, for example, instead of the word 鉄erbs�, reference was being made to some other group. Let痴 run this same passage substituting words like 笛ews�, 鄭lbanians�, 釘lacks�, and 鄭sians� for 鉄erbs� and then you can give your reflections. I thought of this quote when I read your scrawlings, since I thought Sir Peter basically spoke for you and your kind, albeit much more forcefully and without your condescension:

  "The Serbs, are two-dimensional people with a craving for simplicity and an ideology so basic it can be understood without effort. They need enemies, not friends, to focus their two-dimensional ideas. Life for them is a simple tune, never an orchestration, or even a pleasant harmony. Animals make use of their resources with far greater felicity than these retarded creatures, whose subscription to the human race is well in arrears"

  "Sir" PETER USTINOV, actor, playwright, director, painter, and oh yeah, I almost forgot, Chair of UNESCO, in The European, 1993.

  And yet still they池e not grateful to the internationals! Oy.
  
  Jim Yarker
  Canada

• Monday February 02, 2004 at 11:01 am
  

  Drazco,

  Good letter to "The NYT", would they print it?
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Shangri-La

• Monday February 02, 2004 at 11:48 am
  Re Canada/Yugolavia parallels, it would seem the 'just watch me' interview with PM Trudeau during the October, 1970 crisis, is not far from Milosevic's stand about the situation in Kosovo in 1987.

  "In October, 1970, two cells of the Front de Liberation du Quebec (FLQ), a revolutionary organization promoting an independent and socialist Quebec, kidnapped British Trade Commissiner James Cross and Quebec Justice Minister Pierre Laporte. Armed forces were sent into Quebec to help the police and the federal government invoked the War Measures Act, temporarily suspending civil liberties." (About Canada Online) "...the right to arrest and detain people on suspicion alone. Trudeau also outlawed the FLQ and told police to arrest those with 'extreme-left' literature, posters, stickers or pamphlets. Eighty-five percent of Canadians agreed with invoking the act." (CBC archives)

  "Canada looks more like a police state than a democracy eight days after the kidnapping....On Parliament Hill, a reporter confronts PM Pierre Elliot Trudeau: 'What is it with all these men and guns around here?' With army tanks and men in full gear, Trudeau boosted national security. But the military's presence makes some Canadians feel a whole lot more insecure. How far will the prime minister extend law and order? Just watch him." (CBC archive)

  "Impromtu interview of ...Trudeau with Tim Ralfe of the CBC and Peter Reilly of CJON-TV on October 13, 1970: Q: Sir, what is it with all these men with guns around here? A: Haven't you noticed? Q: Yes, I've noticed them. i wondered why you people decided to have them. A: What's your worry? Q: I'm not worried, but you seem to be. A: So if you're not worried, what's your...I'm not worried. Q: I'm worried about living in a town that's full of people with guns running around. A: Why? Have they done anything to you? Have they pushed you around or anything? A: They've pushed around friends of mine. A: Yes? What were your friends doing? Q: trying to take pictures of them. A: Aha. Q: Is that against the law? A: No, not at all. Q: Doesn't it worry you, having a town that you've got to resort to this kind of thing? A: It doesn't worry me. I think it's natural that if people are being abducted that they be protected against such abductions. What would you do if a Quebec minister - another Quebec minister were abducted or a federal minister? Q: But isn't that one of the...A: Is your position that you should give in to the seven demands of the FLQ and...? Q: No, not at all. My position is completely the opposite. A: What is your position? Q: My position is that you don't give in to any of them. A: All right. But you don't protect yourselves against the possibility of blackmail? Q: Well, how can you protect everybody that is going to be a possible target without a much bigger military force, without putting somebody on everybody in the country, and turning it almost into a police state? A: So, what do you suggest - that we protect everybody? Q: How can you protect them all? A: Well, you can't protect them all but are you therefore arguing that we shouldn't protect any? Q: That's right. A: That's your position? Q: Right. A: All right. So Pierre Laporte wasn't protected and he was abducted. If you had hindsight, would you not have preferred to protect him and Mr. Cross? Q: Well, second guessing is pretty easy, but you can't do it. A: Well al right, but I'm asking you to first guess now. Q: No, because it's impossible. A: It would have been impossible to protect cabinet ministers of the provincial government or diplomats? Q: I would suspect so, with all the diplomats there are in this country. A: Well, we've go a big army. Q: You're going to use it up pretty fast at this rate. A: What do you mean at this rate? Q: Six and seven. (Reilly now questioning) Q: If I could interpolate something here. You seem to be thinking, in your statement in the House this morning - you seemed to be saying that you thought the press had been less than responsible in its coverage of this story so far. Could you elaborate on that? A: Not less than responsible. I was suggesting that they should perhaps use a bit more restraint which you're not doing now - you're going to make a big news item of this I am sure. Q: Well, the papers - it is a big news item. A: Yes, but the main thing that the FLQ is trying to gain from this is a hell of a lot of publicity for the movement. Q: A recognition. A: Yes and I am suggesting that the more recognition you give to them the greater the victory is, and I'm not interested in giving them a victory. Q: ...the proposition that perhaps it would be wise to use less inflammatory terms than "bandits" when you talk about a bunch of people who have the lives of two men in their hands? A: You don't think they're bandits? Q: Well, regardless of what I think, I don't think I would be inclined to wave a red flag in their face if they held two of my friends or colleagues with guns at their heads. A: Well, first of all, I didn't call them bandits. I called the people who were in jail now bandits, who had been tried before the law and condemned to a prison term and I said that you people should stop calling them political prisoners. They're not political prisoners, they're outlaws. They're criminal prisoners, they're not political prisoners, and they're bandits. That's why they're in jail. (Ralfe now questioning)Q: But with your army troops you seem to be combatting them almost as though it is a war, and if it is a war does anything that they say have validity? A: Don't be silly. We're not combatting them as if it's war but we're using some of the army as peace agents in order that the police be more free to do their job as policemen and not spend their time guarding your friends against some form of kidnapping. Q: You said earlier that you would protect them in this way but you have said before that this kind of violence, what you're fighting here, the kind of violence of the FLQ, can lead to a police state. A: Sure. That's what you're complaining about, isn't it? Q: Well yes, but surely that decision is yours, not the FLQ's. A: Yes, but I've asked you what your won logic is. It's to let them abduct anybody and not give any protection to anyone - call off the police, that seems to be your position. Q: Not call off the police. Surely the police's job is to catch people break the law. A: Yes, but not to give protection to those citizens who might be blackmailed for one reason or another? Q: Which must be half of the poplation of the country, in one way or another. I explained it badly I think, but what you're talking about to me is choices, and my choice is to live in a society that is free and democratic, which means that you don't have people with guns running around in it. A: Correct. Q: And one of the things I have to give up for that choice is the fact that people like you may be kidnapped. A: Sure, but this isn't my choice, obviously. You know, I think it is more important to get rid of those who are committing violence against the total society and those who are trying to run the government through a parallel power by establishing their authority by kidnapping and blackmail. And I think it is our duty as a government to protect government officials and important people in our society against being used as tools in this blackmail. Now, you don't agree to this but I am sure that once again with hindsight, you would probably have found it preferable if Mr Cross and Mr Laporte had been protected from kidnapping, which they weren't because these steps we're taking now weren't taken. But even with your hindsight I don't see how you can deny that. Q: No, I still go back to the choice that you make in the kind of society that you live in. A: Yes, well there are a lot of bleeding hearts around who just don't like to see people with helmets and guns. All I can say is, go on and bleed, but it is more important to keep law and order in the society than to be worried about weak-kneed people who don't like the looks of...Q: At any cost? How far would you go with that? How far would you extend that? A: Well just watch me. Q: At reducing civil liberties? To what extent? A: To what extent? Q: Well, if you extend this and yousay, ok, you're going to do anything to protect them, does this include wire-taping, reducing other civil liberties in some way?
  
  M Donne
  Canada

• Monday February 02, 2004 at 12:02 pm
  

  B92

  The UN痴 chief prosecutor has warned that Belgrade痴 refusal to hand over documents is jeopardising the case against Slobodan Milosevic for genocide in Bosnia. Carla del Ponte has said several times in recent months that it will be very difficult to prove the genocide charge against the former Yugoslav president. Del Ponte denied trying to justify the prosecution痴 possible failure to prove the charge, saying she had merely wished to warn those in possession of the necessary documents that their refusal to cooperate was jeopardising the case. The chief prosecutor claimed to know exactly which documents were missing and where they are.
  
  Dan B
  Canada

• Monday February 02, 2004 at 12:11 pm
  Just Watch Me interview conclusion

  A: Yes, I think the society must take every means at its disposal to defend itself against the emergence of a parallel power which defies the elected power in this country and I think that goes to any distance. So long as there is a power in here which is challenging the elected representative of the people I think that power must be stopped and I think it's only, I repeat, weak-kneed bleeding hearts who are afraid to take these measures. Q: Excuse me, sir, you have been largely silent on this whole case and understandably so. If you had anything to address to the abductors at this point, what would it be? A: I think Mr Bourassa stated the position yesterday, and I repeated it in the House, with which we agree completely. There is only one thing now that we are prepared to talk to them about. It's a way in which Mr Cross and Mr Laporte can be effectively released. This mechanism has to be dealt with first and foremost.

  Thank you, sir.

  Source: John Saywell, Quebecj 70. A Documentary Narrative, Toronto, University of Toronto Press, 1971, pp. 71-74 (Originally published in the Canadian Annual Review, 1970)

  
  
  M Donne
  Canada

• Monday February 02, 2004 at 1:04 pm
  I thought it instructive to compare PM Trudeau's 'Just Watch Me' interview with the following article, noting particularly, Trudeau's use of the term 'parallel power'.

  (David of Oztralia -Jan 20/04 @ 1:48am - referred to some of the contents under 'The Kosovo Memory Hole', 'What Really Went on in Kosovo Before the War', or 'Did the Media Get it Right but Couldn't Remember?'

  The New York Times, Nov. 1, 1987

  Headline: In Yugoslavia, Rising Ethnic Strife Brings Fears of Worse Civil Conflict by David Binder.

  Portions of southern Yugoslavia have reached such a state of ethnic friction that Yugoslavs have begun to talk of the horrifying possibility of 'civil war' in a land that lost one-tenth of its population, or 1.7 million people, in World War II.

  The current hostilities pit separatist-minded ethnic Albanians against the various Slavic populations of Yugoslavia and occur at all levels of society, from the highest officials to the humblest peasants. A young Army conscript of ethnic Albanian origin shot up his barracks killing four sleeping Slavic bunkmates and wounding six others. The army says it has uncovered hundreds of subversive ethnic Albanian cells in its ranks. Some arsenals have been raided. Ethnic Albanians in the Government have manipulated public funds and regulations to take over land belonging to Serbs. And politicians have exchanged vicious insults.

  Slavic Orthodox churches have been attacked, and flags have been torn down. Wells have been poisoned and crops burned. Slavic boys have been knifed, and some young ethnic Albanians have been told by their elders to rape Serbian girls.

  Ethnic Albanians comprise the fastest growing nationality in Yugoslavia and are expected soon to become its third largest, after the Serbs and Croats.

  Radicals' Goals

  -The goal of the radical nationalists among them, one said in an interview is an'ethnic Albania that includes western Macedonia, southern Montenegro, part of southern Serbia, Kosovo and Albania itself.' That includes large chunks of the republics that make up the southern half of Yugoslavia.

  Other ethnic albanian separatists admit to a vision of a greater Albania governed from Pristina in southern Yugoslavia rather than Tirana, the capital of neighboring Albania.

  There is no evidence that the hard-line Communist Government in Tirana is giving them material assistance.

  The principal battleground is the region called Kosovo, a high plateau ringed by mountains that is somewhat smaller than New Jersey. Ethnic Albanians there make up 85 percent of the population of 1.7 million. The rest are Serbians and Monenegrins.

  Worst Strife in Years

  As Slavs flee the protracted violence, Kosovo is becoming what ethnic Albanian nationalists have been demanding for years, and especially strongly since the bloody rioting by ethnic Albanians in Pristina in 1981 - an 'ethnically pure' Albanian region, a 'Republic of Kosovo' in all but name.

  The violence, a journalist in Kosovo said, is escalating to 'the worst in the last seven years.'

  Many Yugoslavs blame the troubles on the ethnic Albanians, but the matter is more complex in a country with as many nationalities and religions as Yugoslavia's and involves economic develpoment, law, politics, families and flags. As recently as 20 years ago, the Slavic majority treated ethnic Albanians as inferiors to be employed as hewers of wood and carriers of heating coal. The ethnic Albanians, who now number 2 million, were officially deemed to be a minority, not a constituent nationality, as they are today.

  Were the ethnic tensions restricted to Kosovo, Yugoslavia's problems with its Albanian nationals might be more manageable. But some Yugoslavs and some ethnic Albanians believe the struggle has spread far beyong Kosovo. Macedonia, a republic to the south with a population of 1.8 million, has a restive ethnic Albanian minority of 350,000.

  'We've already lost western Macedonia to the Albanians,' said a member of the Yugoslav party presidium, explaining that the ethnic minority had driven the Slavic Macedonians out of the region.

  Attacks on Slavs

  Last summer, the authorities in Kosovo said they documented 40 ethnic Albanian attacks on Slavs in two months. In the last two years, 320 ethnic Albanians have been sentenced for political crimes, nearly half of them characterized as severe.

  In one incident, Fadil Hoxha, once the leading politician of ethnic Albanian origin in Yugoslavia, joked at an official dinner in Prizren last year that Serbian women should be used to satisfy potential ethnic Albanian rapists. After his quip was reported this October, Serbian women protested, and Mr Hoxha was dismissed from the Communist Party.

  As a precaution, the central authorities dispatched 380 riot police officers to the Kosovo region for the first time in four years. Officials in Belgrade view the ethnic Albanian challenge as imperiling the foundations of the multinational experiment called federal Yugoslavia, which consists of six republics and two provinces.

  'Lebonizing' of Yugoslavia

  High-ranking officials have spoken of the 'Lebanonizing' of their country and have compared its troubles to the strife in Northern Ireland.

  Borislav Jovic, a member of the Serbian party's presidency, spoke in an interview of the prospect of 'two Albanias, one north and one south, like divided Bermany or Korea,' and of'practicallly the breakup of Yugoslavia.' He added: 'Time is working against us.' The federal Secretary for National Defense, Fleet Adm. Branko Mamula, told the army's party organization in September of efforts by ethnic Albanians to subvert the armed forces. 'Between 1981 and 19877 a total of 216 illegal organizations with 1,435 members of Albanian nationality were discovered in the Yugoslav People's Army,' he said. Admiral Mamula said ethnic Albanian subversives had been preparing for 'killing officers and soldiers, poisoning food and water, sabotage, breaking into weapons arsenals and stealing arms and ammunition, desertion and causing flagrant nationalist incidents in army units.

  Concerns Over Military

  Coming three weeks after the ethnic Albanian draftee, Aziz kelmendi, had slaughtered his Slavic comrades in the barracks at Paracin, the speech struck fear in thousands of families whose sons were about to start their mandatory year of military service.

  Because the Albanians have had a relatively high birth rate, one-quarter of the army's200,000 concsripts this year are ethnic Albanians. Admiral Mamula suggested that 3,792 were potential human timebombs. (continued)
  
  M Donne
  Canada

• Monday February 02, 2004 at 1:26 pm
  M. Donne, thanks for the above. Trudeau says it all. I came to Canada in 1976, and Trudeau was very much a personal hero of mine. He knew instinctively that truths needed to be said, and was willing to say them no matter how unpopular that would make him.

  As a newly arrived immigrant from England he taught me (and much of the rest of Canada along with me) what it hence forth would mean to be a Canadian. It was a lesson I never forgot.

  Were Trudeau alive to day I rather suspect that his opposition to Canada bombing of Serbia would be at least equal to my own.
  
  Ian Davis
  Waterloo
  Ontario, Canada

• Monday February 02, 2004 at 1:28 pm
  (continued: before Milosevic came to power)

  He said the army had 'not been provided with details relevant for assessing their behavior.' But a number of Belgrade politicians said they doubted the Yugolav armed forces would be used to intervene in Kosovo as they were to quell violent rioting in 1981 in Pristina. They reason that the army leadership is extremely reluctant to become involved in what is, in the first place, a political issue.

  Ethnic Albanians already control almost every phase of life in the autonomous province of Kosovo, including the police, judiciary, civil service, schools and factories. Non-Albanian visitors almost immediately feel the independence - and suspicion - of the ethnic Albanian authorities.

  Region's Slavs Lack Strength

  While 200,000 Serbs and Montenegrins still live in the province, they are scattered and lack cohesion. In the last seven years, 20,000 of them have fled the province, often leaving behind farmsteads and houses, for the safety of the Slavic north.

  Until September, the majority of the Serbian Communist Party leadership pursued a policy of seeking compromise with the Kosovo party hierarchy under its ethnic Albanian leader, Azem Vlasi. But during a 30-hour session of the Serbian central committee in late September, the Serbian party secretary, Slobodan Milosevic, deposed Dragisa Pavlovic, as head of Belgrade's party organization, the country's largest. Mr Milosevic accused Mr Pavlovic of being an appeaser who was soft on Albanian radicals. Mr Milosevic had courted the Serbian backlash vote with speeches in Kosovo itself calling for 'the policy of the hard hand.' We will go up against anti-Socialist forces, even if they call us Stalinists,' Mr Milosevic declared recently. That a Yugoslav politician would invite someone to call him a Stalinist even four decades after Tito's epochal break with Stalin, is a measure of the state into which Serbian politics have fallen. For the moment, Mr Milosevic and his supporters appear to be staking their careers on a strategy of confrontation with the Kosovo ethnic Albanians.

  Other Yugoslav poiticians have expressed alarm. 'There is no doubt Kosovo is a problem of the whole country, a powder keg on which we all sit,' said Milan Kuchan, head of the Slovenian Communist Party.

  Remzi Koljgeci, of the Kosovo party leadership, said in an interview in Pristina that 'relations are cold' between the ethnic Albanians and Serbs of the province, that there were too many 'people without hope.'

  But many of those interviewed agreed it was also a rare opportunity for Yugoslavia to take radical political and economic steps, as Tito did when be broke with the Soviet Bloc in 1948) (continued)
  
  M Donne
  Canada

• Monday February 02, 2004 at 1:37 pm
  

  ICTY:

  Please be advised that the hearing on Tuesday 3 February 2004 in the Milosevic trial has been cancelled due to the ill health of the accused.

  
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Shangri-La

• Monday February 02, 2004 at 1:43 pm
  (short conclusion to 'before Milosevic came to power' - sorry about the split, I misplaced the tail end)

  1948.

  Efforts are under way to strengthen central authority through ammendments to the constitution. The League of Communiists is planning an extraordinary party congress before March to address the country's grave problems.

  The hope is that something will be done then to exert the rule of law in Kosovo while drawing ethnic Albanians back into Yugoslavia's mainstream.
  
  M Donne
  Canada

• Monday February 02, 2004 at 3:23 pm
  

  Carla del Ponte may be put on trial before the ICC for crimes commited against humanity.:

  URL: http://www.icc-cpi.int/php/index.php

  URL: http://www.icc-cpi.int/php/show.php?id=home&l=EN

  URL: http://www.icc-cpi.int/php/show.php?id=basicdocuments

  The full version of the post is posted on Andy's iste. It contains some of the relevant Articles from the ICC statut.

  URL: http://disc.server.com/discussion.cgi?disc=217548;article=190;title=Slobodan%20Milosevic%20Trial

  Last week I have started reading Statut of the International Criminal Court (ICC). I have concluded that since the Satatut of the ICC has come into effect on 1st Julay 2002 it is applicable to the trial of Mr. Milosevic and all other inmates in The Hague.

  For example: the statut allows for criminal prosecution in the following cases:

  ｷ Article 8 War crimes: (vi) Wilfully depriving a prisoner of war or other protected person of the rights of fair and regular trial;

  ｷ Article 7 Crimes against humanity: ( h) Persecution against any identifiable group or collectivity on political, racial, national, ethnic, cultural, religious, gender as defined in paragraph 3, or other grounds that are universally recognized as impermissible under international law, in connection with any act referred to in this paragraph or any crime within the jurisdiction of the Court;

  Who can then be proseccuted for this crimes:

  ｷ Article 27 Irrelevance of official capacity

  1. This Statute shall apply equally to all persons without any distinction based on official capacity. In particular, official capacity as a Head of State or Government, a member of a Government or parliament, an elected representative or a government official shall in no case exempt a person from criminal responsibility under this Statute, nor shall it, in and of itself, constitute a ground for reduction of sentence.

  2. Immunities or special procedural rules which may attach to the official capacity of a person, whether under national or international law, shall not bar the Court from exercising its jurisdiction over such a person.

  After reading parts of the ICC statut it appears to me that it is possible to complain before The ICC that the president of the Internationa Criminal Tribunal for Former Yugoslavia, his prosecutrors and judges are in a process of comminting abouve listed crimes. It can be argued that while Serbs are primary victims that other nationalitis living on the teritories of the Former Yugoslavia are secondary ones.

  There are numerous methods that are used against Serbian defendants in the ICTY in order to make them guilty. They are very well identified by articles of Jared Israel, Serge Trifkovic, Nebojsa Malic, other analists of the ICTY trials and numerous participants of the Jurist Discussion Group on Fairnes of the Trial of Mr. Milosevic. The unfairnes towords all Serbian defendants in the ICTY is at its worst, so they are primary victims of the listed crimes.

  The crimes allegedly commited by Serbs are differently cathegorized than the crimes commited by other nationalities. For example, in the case of the alleged crime at Medac Pocket the government of Croatia is not accused of this crime. In the case of the alleged crime at Racak the Serbian government and its officials are indentified as main coulprits. So one can argue that since in the Racak case the leadership is accused for the crime the lower rank officials and military and police chiefs are thenks to that approach absolved of thheir role in comiting the crime. In the case of Medac Pocket it is the oposit. The leadership walks free and the lower reank officials get accused. The unfairnes of this procedure does not require additional proof. One even can argue that Bosnian, Croatian and Albanian defendants are unfairly treated because they are not only prosecuted as executioners of the crimes but also as ones that have initietid crimes on their own. So this is why I am treating them as secondary victims of the crime of inhumant treatment by the ICTY.

  When esencially a government is accused of war crimes, crimes of apparhade and inhuman acts there is tendency to assume that the population of the contry is indirectly responsible for the crimes, as well. This has enormous negative consequences for the country and its people (sanctins, putting parts of the country as the whole or only its parts under the international control and rule, denial of access to humanitarian aid, international organizations, international funding, harasment of its people in diaspora and so on and so on )

  In the opposite case the population goes free of charge.

  It becomes clear that even if only the president of Serbia is misstreated in the ICTY and he is accused of more crimes than he has comommited people of Serbia will suffer consequences. In the international arena they will be exposed to treatments amounting to appartheid. The development of the country will be slowed down which amounts to the crime of genocide.

  The beauty of this approach is that what ever officials at the ICTY do is subject to the scrutiny of the ICC.

  Lawyers, Law Societes, Profesors of Law, Governments, Parliaments, NGOs and organized citizens required to put actions in place in order to put on trial Carla del Ponte, Judge May et al before The International Criminal Court for the crimes against Serbian people as a primary victim and all the other peoples of Former Yugoslavia as secondery ones.

  If I am right in my esecial assumption and understanding of the ICC statut this can explode in the faces of many politicians especially in the NATO countries. Indirecly it may affect USA, as well.

  It may be possible to use the ICC to obtain documents of the NATO countries and NATO its self and their secret services for the trial of Mr. Milosevic and other victimes of the ICTY.

  The date of start of the application of the ICC statut is fixed. 1st Julay 2002. Criminal laws of member countires do not have this limitation, so they are obliged to prosecute war crimes and crimes c ommited against humanity commited before the 1st Julay 2002. The same applies for the ICTY. These courts does not want to prosecute these crime. I hope that the following argument, using Canada as an eaxample, is walid. Canada was a part of the bombing party that bombed Last Yugoslavia. Canadian courts are refusing to prossecute its government officials for the crime. The crime can not be prosecuted by the ICC directly. The courts in Canada are commiting a crime of not prosecuting their leaders for bombing of Yugoslavia. This letest crimes is happening as we speek. So, one can complain to the ICC and argue that ICC should issue an order to the Canadian courts to start prosecuting the crime of bombing Last Yugoslavia or else.

  Following this logic many other asspect of the special war against Former Yugoslavia and Last Yugoslavia and existance of genocide, apartheid, environment polution, unemplymen (distruction of industry), law birth rate (induced general poverty of people) can be covered by additional complaints to the ICC which can result in substantial reparations granted to the all affected people of all the nationalities of the Former Yugoslavia.
  
  Pera Bora
  Ottawa
  Canada

• Monday February 02, 2004 at 3:55 pm
  MP I cant help you with your child comments without any serious opinions but at least this one. 'Serbia has no room for "izdajice"'

  I agree that is why SPS got only 8 percent. Traitors of national interest get what deserve. Does a primative (opa patriot) believe that his people dont have traitors and every other country does have traitors? Any man who believes that is a fool. Understand?

  Pera Bora keep going backward and you will fall over. I can see your selective memory is working about what you said about Vojvodina. First its only retaliation because somebody said something to your first then you remember something different. Its interesting the way we like to remember when reality is different:

  'Statement that some new invented nationalities of Vojvodina and Montenegro hate Serbs is Bull.' - Pera Bora

  Your denial causes me to ask you yet again Mr Bora without excuses what are these new invented Vojvodina and Montenegrian nationality you are talking about? Did you invent them by yourself?

  Please dont be such cry baby when somebody disagrees with you. I respect your right to opinion. I never said anything to give you reason to need any permission from me. In other post you advise participants not to talk with people on other issues. ie dont engage with me or Goran because our opinions on Milosevic. You can hide behind 'stick to the trial' position. Funny thing how you are allowed to talk about invented nationalities in Vojvodina but you stop others from talking about issue connected to trial. So you see you are one who is trying to deny permission to others not me. 'Vojvodina will be lost one day' there you are again exactly kind of stupid talk we heard during Milosevic and it didnt happen. Lost to who exactly? Where is your evidence? I dont think you will reply to this because there is no evidence. You are stirring the pot about Vojvodina nobody else.

  O another bit hypocricy did you complain when Jared Israel or Andy Wilcoxson put links with their websites here? And you complain about Goran? Ha. You know WSWS may not have answers but they look like saint next to SPS.

  Pero Peric person earn respect not through the telling of sad stories true or not. They earn respect by caring about suffering of others, not by trying to say 'o I suffered more than you so cry and suffer all you want' My God is this some kind of competition to see who suffered most? Its ridiculous. Some perspective and less self righoutness.

  2 As far as know many European countries are allowed concious objection. They also allowed to do national service in which way they want. Even in Serbia law is changed now and people can work in hospitals which is better to save life than to kill as I see. In England for example there is no national service at all. Pero dont forget key point Serbia was not at war. This is also Milosevic's point. Nobody attacked Serbia. I said it before I would have gone to Slovenia to fight for Jugoslavia but when Slovenia was allowed to leave Jugoslavia died.

  3 So Mr. Pasic I am asking for the sovereignty what was forcefully taken from us? Thats ok but then go and fight for it. You dont have right to force anybody else to fight in state that left Jugoslavia and supported by the West. If you want a kamikaze mission then dont expect to take whole country with you.

  4 I agree with you on this point. In 1991 what you said is right and you really have my sympathy on this. If only we could have made confederation or if we must do it force Slovenia to not leave in first place then maybe things would have been different. I wish we had the chance but you know who wasnt interested. Before war started Yugoslavia still had many supporters. IF JNA hit Slovenia hard it would have been accepted by them. After Slovenia was gone it was too late.

  5 And do you really think that we are animal warriors since we still have 杜ythical pride�? Playing with the words? I didnt say we are animal wariors did I? I am hurt from people acting like this to give people excuse to believe we are this way. That is question not for me but for nationalists. But my reply is we are not animal wariors even if some Westerners and strange people from our ethnic group expect us to act this way killing for historical injustice, myth for revenge or territory. I only wanted peace not war. If that makes me guilty according to Mr Trkla then he can cry me a river.

  Andy Wilcoxson remember what I told you about SPS collaborating with DSS? You are learning about Serbian politics. Im sure Sloba is pissed about this.

  Goran I dont agree with you about Vera (even if she does not agree with me about a lot). She provides critique of trial. She does make political points sometimes that I do not agree with but c'est la vie. Your last message starting to sound unnatural like you have party line. You cant expect open mind when your own mind is not open. Though I dont think there are much open minds here. Most already made up their mind up.

  Walter Trkla please quit your love affair with West rubbish. It really sound like you are abusing yourself in public. Who is the one who chooses to stay in West anyway? Dont you think it is hypocritical to give me lecture when it is you that never returned not me? You think I didnt think about leaving or I didnt have opportunity. I chose to stay and Im happy with that choice. I like living with Serbs. I enjoyed being a Jugoslav more when things were good but never mind. I wont do self pity thing any more. I see how bad it looks. By way I agree with what you say about the US. Same thing for England and so. Are you confused? (Wait minute if he doesnt like Milosevic or nationalist view he must like West... but he says he does not... malfunction.. malfunction ah does not compute!...Logic part access... he must be liar... malfunction corrected ). So you see its your sad brain process for everyone to see betazoid or no. I must be Ferengi? Help me please I dont even like capitalism. How can you think at all when you see world in such simplistic way I dont know. You seem like educated guy but somehow your experiences did you damage. Im sorry for that.

  J Askamit we are not born wrong. Most of us get screwed by our experiences. Nurture not nature. Peace not war. Individual not group. Brain not weapon. Compromise not spite. Understanding not bitterness.
  
  Arandjel Pasic
  Jug

• Monday February 02, 2004 at 4:54 pm
  Arandjel , you live in "Fantasy Island" , if this is the new bend over Serbian thinking I'll rather die "animal" warrior as you say and it would've a beautiful way to die , even if I don't succede at least I won't fail trying to preserve my heritage . And as far as I am concern you are far very far from the general feeling.
  
  M P
  Panama

• Monday February 02, 2004 at 6:31 pm
  Boy, my posts from yesterday and today are getting some real attention. I must have struck the nerv.
  
  Pera Bora
  Ottawa
  Canada

• Monday February 02, 2004 at 7:35 pm
  Can't fit the text onto my monitor. Anyone else with the problem? I'm using 'netscape. When I use Microsoft, the text ends with an error message on the Jan 27 th post. What's up?
  
  J. P
  USA,Wis

• Monday February 02, 2004 at 8:51 pm
  J Askamit we are not born wrong. Most of us get screwed by our experiences. Nurture not nature.

  Have any children AP? I have and I don't remember ever having to teach them to behave poorly. Seems to me that there is a 'natural' inclination for them to do so from the time they learn to crawl. You have too 'train them up......and when they grow old they will not depart'. People who don't know this raise those little angels you see throwing fits in public places.

  Peace not war.

  How many wars, hospital beds and graveyards do you need to concede my point.

  Individual not group.

  "the needs of the many outway the needs of the few" Spock.

  Brain not weapon.

  What great accomplishment was the Nobel Peace Prize name for?

  Compromise not spite.

  Spite is not good but be careful what you compromise.

  Understanding not bitternes.

  Tell that to Sasha Mikoyan. This poor misguided individual thinks me responsible for the misdeeds of the nation in which I was born... past and present it seems.

  What ethnicity is Sasha Mikoyan. Arben are you playing again?
  
  Joel Aksamit
  Cleveland MO
  USA

• Monday February 02, 2004 at 11:35 pm
  Pasic:

  I do not see why you are repeating:
  "Thats ok but then go and fight for it. You dont have right to force anybody else to fight in state that left Jugoslavia and supported by the West. If you want a kamikaze mission then dont expect to take whole country with you."

  I already posted here:
  "I could not care less you did not want to fight for the 叢art of Croatia� - what I care is your negation of Serbs� sovereign rights over Drina. If we never united 1918 with Serbia we would have these rights. So Mr. Pasic I am asking for the sovereignty what was forcefully taken from us? And we paid that in human lives Mr. Pasic as Trkla pointed to you."

  So I do not expect to take the whole country with me you could have seen it from my previous post. And which country?

  I will bold what I already posted.
  "I could not care less you did not want to fight for the 叢art of Croatia�" Pasic I could not care less then and now either. - Where did you see my intention to take the whole country with me?

  Please read this one more time but very carefully:

  "If we never united 1918 with Serbia we would have these (constitutional) rights. " Why do you think I want to take the whole country - and unite with whom today, You, Draskovic, Zivkovic, Canak, Micunovic.....? What I said is a fact that I had once upon a time fatherland, house, family, friends, and as a citizen of a country equally recognized piece of land, and I would tell that fact to German, Englishman, Russian, Croatian... and they should not feel that I want them to go with me on some "kamikaze mission" as you said.

  I am happen to be the same nationality as you are, however we are still from different countries; I respect your's - you do not respect mine - thats why I posted what I posted.

  Montenegrians are the same nationality too. But in my opinion if never it gives them a right today to ask for recognition, since they, in a full fate(King Petrovic) ceded their Kingdoom to King Karadjordjevic.

  How come you can not see that we Serbs in Bosnia and Croatia, did the same thing as Montenegrians did and YOU are gambled it and still lecturing us.

  
  
  Pero Peric
  Canada.

• Tuesday February 03, 2004 at 1:26 am
  

  Just wondering: Is it possible today to beat this line in Washington Post, 20th September, 1992 - "The Serbs are a breed of their own. They lie and wage a war." -- no kidding, eh?

  BTW: somebody must have informed the judges at The Hague Court that Germany's blitzkrieg (1941) against Yugoslavia was code-named..."The Court Punishes".

  
  
  John North
  Canada

• Tuesday February 03, 2004 at 1:29 am
  >Jim Yarker ref to Ustinov's slur reminded me of some excellent business opportunities:
  1. "Durakovic Asaf, a surgeon from Washington, a native of Sarajevo and a man with medical degrees from four countries, including Britain and Canada, has now confirmed ugly, frightening rumors that the Serbs are trading in human organs from their victims to make money for their war effort. To demonstrate the full horror of this, human organs have to be taken from living bodies." The Star Phoenix", October 13, 1992, "Horror stories show why Serbs called new Nazis" P Jackson is editor of "The Calgary Sun"
  2. "Serbian doctors were accused yesterday of conducting vile experiments on women prisoners. One Bosnian woman is said to have died after an attempt to make her give birth to a dog. She was allegedly forced to have an abortion and a dog's embryo was placed in her womb" German MP Stefan Schwarz, Daily Mirror, 4 January 1993
  3. "Experiments on humans are being conducted again, like in the Third Reich under Mengele, Serb doctors implanted dog embryos in Bosnian women" S. Schwartz, CDU deputy, Bundestag: Die Tagesthemen, January 1993

  Please provide any information you might have, however vague, to any evidence supporting the claims above. This is serious business - if true, Serbian biomedical technology must be decades ahead of the West. I assure you that many biotechnology companies are ready to pay millions to get their hands on notes - on anything, even remotely, describing the science or technology involved.

  
  
  John North
  Canada

• Tuesday February 03, 2004 at 1:37 am
  Arandjel you accuse Pera of fear mongering about Vojvodina but I would say sir that you are na�ve. The issue of Vojvodina and Transylvania in Romania has been discussed by the Hungarian government openly and they want to nullify the Treaty of Trianon. There is an organization in Hungary actively seeking the return of these territories. The Serbs in Hungary have been Madjarized and they don稚 have the same rights as the Hungarians in Serbia. This organization in Hungary is similar to the one in Munich which wants the return of Sudetenland to Germany. Germany has refused to pay reparation to Czechoslovakia until the Czech痴 return Sudetenland or pay the Germans for the confiscated property. The Germans who were illegally expelled should be compensated.

  Arandjel will only be happy when Serbia becomes once again the Belgrade Pasaluk. Arandjel loves 廃eace not war� but if Slovenia was 派it hard� it would have been over. Arandjel does not like Capitalism but he prefers the wellbeing of the 琶ndividual over group� Arandjel does not need enemies, he will fight with himself.

  Peace is always preferable to war and only you Arandjel seem to think that many of us who post here wanted war for some mythical reasons.GARBAGE IN GARBAGE OUT.It is obvious to me that Arangel is no accessing the four lobes of his Forengi brain.

  You bet I have a love affair with the West and I have lot to be thankful to the West. First as a child they fed me and deloused me and when I came to Canada I was given many opportunities to succeed. The fact that I understand the political dynamics of the West I did not want to be an apologist for their hegemony and abuse of power. Hypocrisy only exists when one is in control of their destiny. Destiny made me a Canadian and a Yugoslav of Serbian decent and if by defending the truth and standing up so that my heritage is not besmirched you call this nationalism. Maybe you need to look up the definition of nationalism. Maybe as David from Australia said 菟ity it will fall on deaf ears and a brain laundered by Soros� so I am threshing empty straw(ppraznu slamu mlatim) and you should be debating AQ. I have given up self abuse when I was fifteen but it seems to me that you like being the victim and at the same time the accused. Must be that four lobed Ferengi brain and the lobesare not syncrinized.

  Arandjel writes that I 敗eem like educated guy but somehow� my 兎xperiences did--- me damage�. Arandjel, I wait with baited breath for every word you write and for you to be sorry but in the end since us Betazoids are incapable of reading FERENGI my education will depend on others on this forum so I wish you all the best.

  
  Serbia, poor and wretched�
  will you be able�as in time past,
  to renew your strength with a sudden crack?
  Or will you,
  discouraged and feeble,
  disappear among the mountains and nations�
  torn to pieces by apocalyptic forces

  Tanasije Mladenovic

  With Arandjel defending you the answer is yes.
  
  Walter Trkla
  Kamloops BC
  Canada

• Tuesday February 03, 2004 at 3:17 am
  Dobro jutro, good people! "individual not group" he he, what kind of "socialism" is that? Iｴv never heard about it,but it sounds sucipiciously like a statement from the Empire,s governor in the balkans, G.Soros. Freedom for you and your money,mr.Pasic
  
  Mrya Antonov
  Rossija

• Tuesday February 03, 2004 at 6:16 am
  Peter Bora

  very clever argument regarding the jurisdiction of the ICC over the ICTY.

  The Judges and OTP should realize they can (and will) be held accountable. Their violation of ICC statues will eventually catch up with them.

  War Crimes have no statue of limitation.
  
  AP V
  NY
  NY

• Tuesday February 03, 2004 at 11:33 am
  A very enlightening book:

  Unholy Alliance Greece and Milo啼vi�'s Serbia Takis Michas Foreword by Michalis Papakonstantinou As the only member of NATO and the European Union to support Slobodan Milo啼vi�'s regime in the conflict following the breakup of Yugoslavia, Greece broke ranks with its Western allies, frustrating their efforts to impose sanctions against Serbia. Distinguished Greek journalist Takis Michas covered the war in the Balkans during the 1990s and saw at first hand the effects of Greek support for Serbia. In this account, he follows Greek-Serbian relations and tackles the difficult question of how the Greek people could ignore Serbian aggression and war crimes. The pro-Serbian stance taken by Athens shocked many who assumed that all members of NATO would follow the lead of the United States and the United Nations. Instead, Greece supported Serbia from the outbreak of war in the former Yugoslavia in 1991 through the NATO bombing and occupation of Kosovo eight years later. Michas combines journalistic accounts with anecdotes and personal interviews to show a pattern of Greek support for Milo啼vi� and Radovan Karadzi� that implicates Greek politicians from all parties, as well as the Greek Orthodox Church, the Greek media, and ultimately the Greek people themselves. The evidence and conclusions presented will disturb those who believe that a new liberal order replaced the ideological standoff of the Cold War, but they will not surprise those who suspect that older allegiances have now claimed the loyalties of many of the world's peoples. _________________________________________________________ TAKIS MICHAS lives in Athens, where he works for the Greek daily Eleftherotypia. He is the author of two previous books and has contributed articles to the Wall Street Journal and the New Republic.
  
  George Samos
  Tarpin Springs
  Fl. , USA

• Tuesday February 03, 2004 at 11:43 am
  I believe there are many Greek war criminals in the Gov't and the Orthodox Church of Greece. It seems that there will be more indictments coming from the Hague, this time for Greeks. I have heard that many Greeks that were involved have already retained lawyers while awaiting indictment.
  
  George Samos
  Tarpin Springs
  Fl. , USA

• Tuesday February 03, 2004 at 12:03 pm
  Yawn

  Greece never "supported" Yugoslavia vs. NATO.

  For all it would have taken is a Greek veto of NATO's bombing campaign.

  NATO action requires unanimous vote. Any NATO member can veto NATO approval for any action.

  Greece ( or for that matter Spain, Italy, or Norway ) could have stopped NATO agression simply by voting no.

  The War Party would then have had to go it alone with a coalition of willing. The War Party would not have had the cover of NATO's legitimacy.

  
  
  AP V
  NY
  NY

• Tuesday February 03, 2004 at 12:51 pm
  AP, True but perhaps not true. NATO was also defined as a strictly defensive military organisation, which could only initiate hostility if a member state was first attacked. If NATO was willing to break that rule within its founding charter, what is to say what would actually have happened if Greece had used its veto. It might well have been the straw which broke NATO's resolve, but Serbia would I think still have been bombed simply because the US very much wanted to bomb Serbia. In fairness to the Greeks, the issue would have been what good and what harm would have resulted from employing their veto. And politically that issue would have involved examining Greece's interests, not Serbia's.

  I see no reason why Tony Blair would not have go along for the ride then as now, and it is likely that Canada would have also still have got dragged in. This all has to be put in a context of mass unfounded hysteria about how monsterous Serbs were, coupled with guilt trips about how we'd just let Ruwanda happen, and irrational conclusions that we were not going to make that mistake again.

  So we made different mistakes.

  I have a vague feeling that Poland also abstained? Is that true?
  
  Ian Davis
  Waterloo
  Ontario, Canada

• Tuesday February 03, 2004 at 1:30 pm
  Ian,

  I love Greek people I spent 8 years every summer there, but I have to disagree. When on March 25, 1941 Yugoslav government gave permission to Germans to pass trough Yugoslavia and go Greece to help Italians, people of Serbia and army got up and charged government because they believed that it is a right thing to do to oppose Hitler and support our comrades from Great War (WW I) Greeks and Great Britain. I find that NATO was no bigger treat to Greece than Hitler was to Yugoslavia - Serbia. That historical NO to Hitler cost Germans an easy victory in Russia (due to delay in attack and fact that they met Russion winter in summer clothes) and in cost Serbs 600 000 in Jasenovac. Tell me, would the world be a better place if Serbs did stay at their homes and just let Hitler go trough?
  
  Dakic Ana
  Serbia

• Tuesday February 03, 2004 at 2:37 pm
  George Samos,

  What is this "Serbian aggression" that you say the Greek people ignored?

  Serbia never attacked anybody; and since there was never any "Serbian aggression" for the Greeks to take notice of in the first place, how can you accuse them of ignoring it?
  
  Andy Wilcoxson
  Washington, United States

• Tuesday February 03, 2004 at 2:48 pm
  If Greece used its veto, then Clinton & Clark would not have been able to hide behind the coatails of NATO.

  Sure, the bombing of Yugoslavia would have still taken place, but w/o "legitimacy" of NATO

  It has also been suggested that if Greece had enough courage to not allow NATO overflights & NATO occupation forces to use Salonika as a base; it would have saved a few hundred lives.

  Greece acted shamefully in March 1999. It could have stood firmly against agression. Instead, Greece bargined away its honor in hopes to curry favour with Washington.

  Greece behaved as badly as Romania & Bulgaria did. Those 2 states sucked up to the War Mongers and allowed NATO bombing missions free flight over their "neutral" airspace. Again, if Romania and Bulgaria had protected their long term interests (ie the rule of law) instead of trying to curry favour with Washinton a few hundred lives might have been saved.
  
  AP V
  NY
  NY

• Tuesday February 03, 2004 at 3:13 pm
  "George Samos" = the primitive headcutting peasant, Arben
  
  ... ...
  ...

• Tuesday February 03, 2004 at 6:32 pm
  

  Greece?

  "In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies but the silence of our friends."

  Luther King
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Shangri-La

• Tuesday February 03, 2004 at 6:40 pm
  Ian,

  I agree with AP V's and Ana's take on Greece's government and its role. Fairness to the Greeks in this matter would require, I think, distinguishing between the Greek people on the one hand, whose opposition to Nato aggression was overwhelming, and who showed their solidarity with Yugoslavia in the form of massive protests and labour actions, and the Greek Nato goverment on the other, who were complicit. The Greek government didn't exercise its veto. Whether doing so had any assurance of success seems to me a secondary point. If governments or movements never undertake to challenge something without prior assurance or perceived likelihood of success, it's a rationale for total inaction. Why hold demonstrations? Why file complaints before courts or launch appeals? The veto would at least have been registered, and Nato's breach of the veto would have been a further breach of its charter and yet another reflection of the illegality of its actions. Other governments in E and SE Europe who were abetting the aggression while ruling over populations who were massively antiwar could have experienced acute pressure to follow suit, whether in Nato states or in the "para-Nato" of Nato candidate states in the region who were providing air facilities, assistance in transhipment of troops and mat駻iel, etc. We simply don't know all the ways it could have played out and what it may have catalyzed, because it was never tried.

  The Greek goverment allowed Greek territory to be used for the transhipment of war mat駻iel and transport of Nato troops. Greek railway workers blocked a train carrying Brit military vehicles from Salonika. Demonstrators confronted British army reinforcements in Salonika. The city's council voted unanimously against Greece providing logistical support for Nato's forces, and Greek ports and airspace were key logistical aspects of the operation. This was the Greek people doing this, not the Greek national government.

  I have little doubt PASOK didn't *want* the bombing campaign, but what they wanted doesn't change the government's complicity. I think what you wrote may explain the calculus they followed, I just don't think it justifies it.

  Certainly the Greek left, who paid its dues fighting fascism and hasn't forgotten the things Ana mentioned with respect to Yugoslavia and the antifascist struggle, held the government complicit, and complicit therefore in Nato's aggression and war crimes, not in "Serbia's".
  
  Jim Yarker
  Canada

• Tuesday February 03, 2004 at 6:47 pm
  Greece bargained away less honour than Canada. (a) It abstained while Canada supported the objectives of NATO. (b) Greece did place restrictions on use of Greek ports -- Thessalonica (sp), and the Greek people had massive protests against this war. I remember rioting at the American embassy.

  Dakic, it wasn't that NATO was a big threat to Greece. I was rather questioning how much influence the Greeks actually thought they could wield within NATO by using their veto, and how politically such an act might have caused them considerable long term harm (assuming they were able to remain in NATO) without actually achieving much real good to balance that harm.

  It would have been "The Greeks did what!".. followed immediately by "Well **!?** the Greeks too".

  Now I will agree that the Greeks could have been as courageous as the Turks, when they denied the US facilities to attack Iraq from Turkey, and added insult to injury by declining massive bribes (paid for with US taxes) totally billions. But being realistic, this didn't really help the Iraq much.
  
  Ian Davis
  Waterloo
  Ontario, Canada

• Tuesday February 03, 2004 at 7:00 pm
  My problem with all this critisism that Greece didn't do enough was that it did a lot more to protest this war than most other NATO countries.

  For myself, if the subject is that members of NATO should have used their veto to oppose the bombing of Serbia, then I'll read that as Canada should have used its veto. I'll not in favour of shifting the blame to Greece, in an attempt to absolve my own nation's guilt, just because there were all sorts of extenuating circumstances which would have made it extremely difficult for Canada to use such a veto. The bottom line is that there were all sorts of equally extenuating circumstances which made it equally difficult for Greece to use its veto. Greece at least abstained. Canada and Italy did not.
  
  Ian Davis
  Waterloo
  Ontario, Canada

• Tuesday February 03, 2004 at 7:16 pm
  

  AP thanks for your kind words. This idea resulted from my reading of posts on this board that have persuaded me that I am not the only one who feels that the jurisdiction process at the ICTY is totally flawed and that something should be done to correct it in a formal manner. The other moving factor behind this idea is that I understand suffering that is going on for everybody in the Balkans who is the victim of the latest series of Balkan wars.

  I think that when ICC was broth to life it is made to be the Supreme Court of the World痴 Justice System in the area of war crimes, apartheid and human right violations. I propose that they avoided the name Supreme Court in order to soften negative connotations that governments would construe from that very name. At the time nobody really understood that it even means that this court can and rightfully is Supreme Court or. Appeals Court for the ICTY too. The time has come to test this avenue of attack in practice.

  Let me just point to a statement in the ICC statute that I like:

  Article 8, (vi) : (Wilfully depriving a prisoner of war or other protected person of the rights of fair and regular trial.

  As a consequence a trial has to be not only fair but REGULAR.

  I am now in the process of informing, about this possibility, people that have much better understanding of the complexity and ins and outs of World Law systems and getting them interested. Probably somebody of them would engage and start acting towards testing this idea in the practice by filing complaints to the ICC. Any help or support from the posters of this board in spreading the text or contributions to the ideas expressed in it is more than appreciated
  
  Pera Bora
  Ottawa
  Canada