 MILOSEVIC TRIAL DISCUSSION ARCHIVE |
| JURIST >> LEGAL NEWS - WORLD LAW >> Discussion >> Milosevic Trial Discussion Archive |
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Former Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic is on trial for war crimes in the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia at The Hague. This marks the first time a head of state has been personally prosecuted before an international criminal court.
Is Slobodan Milosevic getting a fair trial?
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- discussion archive
- Tuesday February 04, 2003 at 12:26 am
Frank,Since your website (domovina.net) does the internet feeds for the ICTY can you tell me if those feeds are ever edited or inadvertently terminated prematurely?
I am especially churious about the end of the day on Jan 30th with the Milosevic trial. Was the feed terminated early, or did the ICTY just go into closed session and stay there until the end?
Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States - Tuesday February 04, 2003 at 2:32 am
Frank says that he fails to see the connection between the violation of human rights and the Dutch control over the detention unit. Frank, you don't have to keep repeating that you don't see the connection. I am sure that everybody following this list already knows that. That only confirms my evaluation of your stupidity. But as long as you pay your taxes to Holland, I am sure you have the right to have whatever illusions you do about the efficiency of the Dutch government.I am thankful for the info on the comic character called Mr T. That is the first valuable bit of info you have posted so far, and I can see you are pretty proud of your accomplishment.
And am I not pressuring Mr Clark to sue Cuba? Well, why the hell would I do that? There is a clear rotten case going on in The Hague, so why would I now suddenly change the subject, as you do, when I am getting hot? Such a change of subject would be exactly what your compatriot Jan Klabbers criticized me for, and I decided to learn the lesson. Obviously the Dutch are finding fault with non-Dutch even at the risk of contradicting themselves, provided they can save their own asses.
Talking about shady characters, why did Mr T have to mention Mr Boyle?
Similarly, I am not surprised that Mr T is offering me a 3,000 page report. I should read that and later. Why, have you read it, Mr T? So shut up. You are a clear example of the tribunal's mentality: the more pages, the guiltier the Serbs are. Aren't you mixing up two entirely different things?
I haven't even read the NIOD report. In fact, I don't even know how many pages it has, but judging by the summaries, it was not what you were expecting. Otherwise, why would the Dutch parliament have arranged the inquiry, which you now regard as a farce.
I have read some bits of your UN General Assembly report on Srebrenica, though. Remember? That was the one that ruled the theories about self-inflicted Muslim injuries in Sarajevo poppycock (contradictory what Michael Rose found out). And it didn't say anything about the alleged klling of 7,000-8,000 Muslim men and boys in Srebrenica.
Jari Nousiainen
Finland - Tuesday February 04, 2003 at 2:55 am
• To be fair I think it was I who first started calling Mr. Frank Tiggelaar as a Mr. T. and trust me it has nothing to do with the African American actor and comic character even though you are amusing sometimes. I am not sure what is crime in the Dutch courts and what is punishment. It seems to vary from time to time and from day to day. What is legal today seems illegal tomorrow. You seem to sign international treaties and in the next breath you break them. Your government gives your representatives immunity but denies that immunity to others. Your soldiers provide protection for one ethnic group and let that same ethnic group kill Serbian women and children in and around Srebrenica. Is this Dutch justice? Seems to me it is more like Turkey, then again they are your allies and by 2020 the nation will be Muslim with a few Frieslanders thrown in the Dutch justice system will make old South Africa very proud.Mr. Tiggelaar writes “It is a misrepresentation of the facts to claim that a Justice Ministry spokesman is 'killing court cases' where he merely points out that the Dutch judiciary has no jurisdiction over the ICTY Detention Unit, much like the US judiciary has no jurisdiction over UN Headquarters in New York.” First of all it has a moral duty to investigate the charges of mistreatment and unlawful abduction. Who has silenced your elected government officials whom I would expect are one check and balance in your legislative, executive and judicial branches.
Recently a Russian attaché driving impaired killed a Canadian citizen and used diplomatic immunity to try and escape responsibility for his crime. The government and the media made sure that the attaché faced a court in Russia. So Mr. Tiggelaar, please don’t tell me that the Dutch don’t have jurisdiction, what they don’t have is consistency in applying the law and moral integrity to find out the truth.
Mr. Tiggelaar uses the United Nations to make an analogy between the location of ICTY and the United Nations. I wonder Mr. Tiggelaar where have you been for the last fifty years. You know full well that there were nation wide protests against decisions by the UN that Americans did not like. United States manipulates the UN, its agencies and its Secretary General. If the Secretary General is not an “Uncle Tom” they replace him and like Hammarskjöld they even kill them. When that doesn’t work they refuse to pay their dues, some billion plus. Kind of like if I don’t like the game I take my ball home. Your government has been silenced by the big Phubba in London and Washington.
Mr. Tiggelaar writes that “cases were dismissed for lack of evidence” convenient. He continues saying “but it is incorrect to state that the Dutch judiciary will not deal with allegations of war crimes.” The question is not will they deal with them but will they use consistency and moral integrity in applying the law to find out the truth.
Mr. Tiggelaar writes that “Holland has spent EUR 600 million in BiH after Dayton”. Sir this is blood money, you by your policies in the breakup of Yugoslavia and participation in NATO will never pay for your culpability. I hold you and your government personally culpable since you and your citizens voted in the “International Criminals” and then you and your courts are silent and you sir have become a do “gooder” just to wash the blood off your hands.
Mr. Tiggelaar also writes “The EUR 10 million just contributed to the Potocari graveyard/memorial and DNA”. I p--- on your monument, not because I disrespect the Yugoslav dead of all ethnicities but because you are chest-beating and build monuments to yourself.
It is interesting that Croatia is not suing Bosnisa and Bosnia is not suing Croatia for damages. I guess they are calling is a saw off or maybe it is a joint criminal enterprise.
Mr. Tiggelaar suggest that we “ask Mr. Clark to press charges before a court in China, Russia, Belorussia, India, Cuba, Ukraine, Iraq, Libya or North Korea.” At least Mr. Tiggelaar we know who is behind the courts in those countries and at least we know there is certainty in their decisions. It is interesting that you see the Milosevic trial as an example of rule of law and due process. A lynching in North Korea, I would assume, would cost one bullet while the lynching of Milosevic is costing millions in the end the results are the same. North Koreans are at least honest more than I can say for NATO nations.
Mr. Tiggelaar writes to Pero“All *I* can do is give you the 'raw material' from the Hague and a pointer now and then to what the media are making of it all.” It is interesting that anything Mr Tiggelaar points to is in one direction. As for the song thanks it reminded me of “Hej Sloveni jos ste zivi dux nasih dedova”
Pero thank you on the article on Oligarchy it was great.
Walter Trkla
Kamloops BC
Canada - Tuesday February 04, 2003 at 3:20 am
If I have understood correctly, Yugoslavia claimed recently in Bosnia v. Yugoslavia that it was not a member state of the UN, which is exactly what the ICJ supposed when it threw out as inadmissible the Yugoslav plea for provisional measures in Legality of Use of Force. So if most judges have indicated they would rule "in Yugoslavia's favour", that would mean the bombing damage would be thrown out of the ICJ altogether. But let us wait for details.But of course, the question whether the bombing was legal or not is quite independent of the question whether Yugoslavia was a member of the UN or not. The recent ICJ case law is the clearest indication that the UN is in deep trouble.
As long as the Dutch courts are playing the games that they are, it is improbable that Yugoslavs would get justice in the so-called civilized European courts.
Let us see. The preliminary ruling in Legality of Use of Force, which declared inadmissible the Yugoslav plea for preliminary measures, is now held as a decision that the bombing was legal. The funny part is that such preliminary rulings should never pre-judge the case, especially when the request for preliminary measures is declared inadmissible, as it was here.
The free circulation of inadmissibility goes on between the Dutch courts and the ECHR too. The ECHR rulings in the Naletilic and later in the Milosevic cases are supposed to confirm that the Milosevic trial is impartial, even if the same reservations should be made here: these were, after all, decisions on inadmissibility. Such decision are not supposed to pre-judge the actual case. That means that the ECHR "case law" on the subject should not keep the district court in The Hague from ruling that Milosevic is detained in The Hague illegally.
In fact, the district court in The Hague must have realized in a second case before it, in early 2001, that its decisions amounted to a denial of justice. So it made a sort of obiter dictum saying that Milosevic should have complained the "Commanding Officer" about his detention according to Rule 84 of the Rules of Detention. So, in effect, the honourable judge was suggesting that Milosevic should request a provisional release at the same time as he was make a complaint to the Commanding Officer, say, about the shortage of soap and clean towels.
OK, maybe I should criticize the human rights situation in Cuba instead. That would make Mr T feel a whole lot better, because the Dutch system, which he is financing with his taxes, is so full of shit. But why would I do that, when they are glaring human rights violations closer to home?
The Secretary-General has the right to revoke the immunity of the ICTY, but I think the Dutch government would be in the best position to give him the push, because the Dutch government is the closest to what is going on. That was in fact what I was suggesting to the Dutch Ministry of Justice. But the spokesman answered with a non-sequitur saying that the agreement between the ICTY and the Dutch government limits the Dutch responsibility to a minimum. He didn't address the revocation of immunity which is regulated by that same agreement (which was actually the topic of the correspondence).
In order to pursue the criminal responsibility of the ICTY, the immunity should be revoked. Unless and until that is done, it is hard to proceed with the civil cases. The mistrials in regard to the release of Milosevic go to illustrate the point, altough it is no use crying over spilt milk, considering the release is only possible before the trial has begun.
And what is the connection between the detention centre and Dutch war crimes? Well, the crimes, like torture, that are going on in the detention centre would be ultimately Carla's responsibility. However, if Carla is accused with a crime, that would undermine her report which concluded no investigation should be conducted into the Nato war crimes, thus including the Dutch war crimes. Clearly, the Dutch government has a symbiotic relation with the ICTY prosecution after Carla's general absolution report.
However, no matter how symbiotic the relation, the Dutch courts could still break the deadlock. There would be masses of evidence to conclude the bombing was illegal, including the report by the Dutch CAVV and AIV, which the Dutch minister requested in October 1999. Instead, in the Dedovic case the district court of Amsterdam considered ex officio Carla's report. As long as the situation is this, it is improbable the Dutch courts would consider ex officio the crime of aggression by the Nato governments.
And as long as they don't do this, the situation is comfortable for the Dutch tax payers: no civil liability for the government, no criminal responsibility for the ministers or the Nato personnel. No criminal responsibility for the ministers or the Nato personnel, no hanky-panky going on on Carla's part. No hanky-panky going on on Carla's part, no reason to question her report which concluded there is no reason to doubt Nato when it says no war crimes were committed by Nato or its personnel. And best of all, no reason to doubt the Dutch case law that the Dutch courts have come up thus far.
I really think it is time to kick Ramsey Clark out of the bed. He was appointed Milosevic's legal advisor by the tribunal, although he was too old to cross the ocean. He is a former Attorney-General. The case against ICTY and Nato seems to work on paper, and if it does, the rest is up to the political will.
J N
Finland - Tuesday February 04, 2003 at 3:37 am
I have indeed been mixing up two entirely different things. Norriega was President of Panama.
J N
Finland - Tuesday February 04, 2003 at 3:42 am
The ICJ ruling has just come out. I should have seen it coming: The judges concluded that the Yugoslav application for revision in Bosnia v. Yugoslavia was INADMISSIBLE!
J N
Finland - Tuesday February 04, 2003 at 5:24 am
Were North Korea or Greenland , oh well Danish colony, in charge and influential to impose sanctions, curtail trade, starve populations, even gather a 1000 bomber planes and get away with it, then the North Korean and Greenland's courts will be in high demand to settle international cases among civilized nations.
But please do not forget the article I posted from the WSJ showing the pitiful condition of the nascent ICC which has not such powers!
Gogol Charlemagne
Conn., USA - Tuesday February 04, 2003 at 8:34 am
If one reads the ICJ Judges decisions in the Use of Forces Case (aka Yugo vs. NATO)......it is reasonable to conclude that 4 of the 9 Judges felt that NATO bombings were a grave act of aggression and should have been shut down immediately.In addition, it is fairly clear that at least 2 of the other 5 Judges agreed that the NATO bombing was naked agggression, but felt uncomfortable issuing a demand for immediate shut down. These ICJ Judges leaned towards the Yugoslav position but wished to have more information and not risk the ICJ credibility in a rush to Judgement against NATO states.
Anyone wishing to understand the ICJ Judges POV should go to the ICJ official site and read the individual Judges opinions for themselves.
The Yugoslav lawsuit against the war making states of NATO is slowly wending its way through the ICJ. So far we know that 4 of 9 Judges favour Yugoslavia's position. And close reading of the other 5 Judges indicate that at least one of them will join the other 4 for majority of ICJ Judges ruling that NATO states are guilty of the supreme war crime....the crime of aggression.
As for the Bosnian, Croat & Dalmatian ICJ cases, while the SDA, HDZ, and other war mongers may believe the self serving agit-prop of the HumWarrior position.....The rest of the World has seen the utter emptyness of the HumWarrior perspective by the farcical prosecution in the Milosevic hearings over at the ICTY.
It is great news to hear that the ICJ will hear the Iztebgovic case against Yugoslavia, for the unlike the laughing stock ICTY, the ICJ has real standing and real independence.
And please note since 1945, there has been only one state which has been found guilty at the ICJ for the crime of aggression........
Frank T. any guess which state was the most exgregious aggressor state in the last 50 years, the only state to be found guilty of aggression by the Internatiol Court of Justice ?
AP V
NY
NY - Tuesday February 04, 2003 at 8:35 am
Bosnia filing a claim against the FR Yugoslavia for genocide over the so-called "siege of Sarajevo."What bullshit.
Alija Izetbegovic is clearly the protagonist of the Bosnian war.
It is unconcinable that a nation that starts a war would think that it has the right to sue anybody over damages that the war it started itself incurred on it.
That would be like me going out and deliberately causing a traffic accident and then suing the person that I hit for my medical bills because I got hurt in the accident.
If anybody should be given money the FRY should be given money for all of the refugees that it had to accomidate as a result of Izetbegovic's war.
Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States - Tuesday February 04, 2003 at 12:48 pm
I am still guessing what Mr T meant by Hej sloveni sta bi. Unless and until the prosecution plays that song in the courtroom, I don't know if it has the effect Mr T would like. What does he meant by "your great leader"? Is Mr T being unprofessional? Actually, I wonder why the prosecution hasn't played the song, if it so clearly indicts something Mr T doesn't like.And Mr T, I never said I wouldn't consider pressing charges in China, India or Russia. You are really busy making yourself an idiot of epic proportions. These countries must represent about half of the world's population (though I am not sure), so if we want to talk about international community, let's talk about them. By including Russia, you may have made a mistake, though, because Russia is a member of your dear European Court of Human Rights (actually Council of Europe). That is why the Chechens threaten to take Russia to the ECHR. Remember? Other members include the Ukraine (which you mentioned), Azerbaijan, Moldova, Armenia and Turkey, the bulwark of human rights. That is a sterling recommendation for the ECHR even by your standards, isn't it? I am not sure why India was included. Maybe because India has resisted the Western policies in the Balkans.
Mr T, I don't have to wait for some report of 3,000 pages to voice my opinion. That only shows why the reports have to be so long, to shut up the critics. If I want to know about the parliamentary inquiry, I ask you. In fact I did that when I wanted to know more about the Michael Rose testimony. You never answered. You had announced the testimony here, although you didn't know if that would interest anybody, but obviously it didn't interest you, judging by your silence. Some rumours started to circulate suggesting that Michael Rose never testified.
A word about the Dutch jurisdiction over the detention unit, and the comparison to the UN Headquarters. Suppose someone gets shot in the UN Headquarters in New York. Wouldn't you say the New York police would try to investigate the shooting? Now suppose a shooting takes place in the Detention unit in Scheveningen. What happens next depends on what the ICTY staff says. If it says that a detainee shot a guard, the Dutch police will investigate it. If the staff says the detainee shot himself, will the police then investigate it? Do the police consider the possibility that one of the staff could have shot the detainee?
What I was driving at was to show that the Detention Unit is not some plot of foreign territory in Scheveningen. It is Dutch territory. If a shooting takes place, it is up to the Dutch police to investigate it, no matter what the ICTY staff says. I think the staff has got away too easily by claiming a detainee committed a suicide. It will all come to light one day, Mr T. The Dutch have still to learn to show remorse in time.
And Walter is right, the Dutch have a moral responsibility to question the things that go on in The Hague. Remember, the Kok government stepped down over the NIOD report out of moral considerations. Someone the Dutch morals favour the Muslim side.
Even if the ICTY staff enjoys diplomatic immunity, there are still other means beside a criminal investigation for the host country to react. One of them is to declare somebody persona non grata. This solution may have fallen into disrepute though, when Yugoslavia declared William Walker persona non grata, thus evoking an angry reaction from James Rubin (though Walker belonged to OSCE). Bombs started falling a couple of months later.
I don't know what Mr T is driving at by saying that the Dutch have paid so much to the post-Dayton Bosnia? Does that give them the right to bomb Serbia? Besides, the money is directed to very Western-friendly projects under the watchful eyes of the Special Representative (of what?), so they may be some positive fallout for the contributors. Besides, as Gogol said, the Western markets are based on the assumption of destroying and rebuilding. Saying that the Dutch paid so and so much money makes it sound as though all the destruction was some kind of joke. And none of this removes the fact that the bombing was a crime.
I am so proud, together with Pera, that the military prosecutor in Arnhem investigated the alleged crimes by the Dutchbat but found nothing. That again shows that the parliamentary inquiry was just a show. But it was a show that distracted the attention from those crimes that there is enough evidence to prosecute. You have the CAVV and AIV report.
And the reason for the bombing. It may all boil down to the question whether the Special Police Units in Kosovo violated human rights, and whether these Units were under Milosevic's direct control. I have pleaded that such anti-terrorist activities presuppose the rules a bit. Nato certainly bent the rules more than a bit when it started the bombing.
Jari Nousiainen
Finland - Tuesday February 04, 2003 at 1:10 pm
I am not kidding but the new philosophy on sciences is that if you can't prove it wrong it is right!.
You see why American universsities are so good?
Gogol Charlemagne
Conn., USA - Tuesday February 04, 2003 at 2:27 pm
Moderator, could you please make the page shorter? I am sure many participants can't load it at slow modem speeds. Thank you.
Gogol Charlemagne
Conn. USA - Tuesday February 04, 2003 at 5:21 pm
What our friend Frank has demonstrated with posting a song: "Hej sloveni jos..."; is how exceptionally he knows and understands Bosnian/Croatian/Serbian language (See, how politically correct I can be, ordering these names by the alphabet and not my feelings) and that he is an expert in who is who in Belgrade and at what time what songs were popular and the reason for their popularity. This is surely an exceptional accomplishment for a Dutchman. Add to that that he as a Dutchman who knows that somebody called Pasha Ponomarenko living in Australia should/can/may understand a song in Serbian. This qualifies him as an unusual Dutchman again. When we add to that his persistent and unquestionable support of the ICTY and hatred towards Dutchbat we must conclude again that he is really the exceptional Dutchman. He is such a big humanitarian that he does not care what is going to happen to some of his own Dutchman. He does not even care if laws are broken in order to prosecute Dutchbat.
Pera Bora
Ottawa
Canada - Tuesday February 04, 2003 at 8:07 pm
Catch 22There are only two rules for the ICTY. Rule One: Nato makes the rules. Rule Two: The rules are whatever Nato says they are.
Humpty Dumpty Blair:
`When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, `it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less.'
`The question is,' said Alice, `whether you can make words mean so many different things.'
`The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, `which is to be master - - that's all.'
From Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Carrol
So for example when Blair says it is right and proper to support Islamic terror in Kosovo with cluster bombs, including al-Qaeda and Mujahedin: So it is.
And when Blair says it is a just and honourable thing to oppose, hunt down and kill without mercy Islamic terrorists in Afghanistan with tanks and the mightiest air armada the world has ever known, including Mujahedin and al-Qaeda: So it is.
And when Blair says that it is a crime against humanity for Serbian security forces in Kosovo to combat with tanks these insurgent Islamic terrorist forces who were randomly killing Serb police and civilians: So it is.
When Blair says we will not tolerate the ethnic cleansing of Kosovars by Serbs: So be it.
And when Blair cannot give a toss about the ethnic cleansing of Kosovo’s minorities by the KLA: So be it.
When Blair says it is a lawful thing to fly bombs into public buildings in Belgrade killing and injuring the civilian workers there: So it is.
And when Blair says it is heinous and unforgivable sin for Islamic terrorists to fly bombs into public buildings in New York killing and injuring civilian workers there: So it is.
When Blair says it is a just and honourable thing to support Islamic terror in Kosovo by dropping 500 cluster bombs throughout Serbia: So it is.
And when Blair, through his association with the ICTY, claims it is a war crime for the Serbs to have attacked Bosnian forces with cluster bombs: So it is.
When Blair says it is right and proper to wage war on Iraq if it is in breach of UN resolution 1441: So it is.
And when Blair says it is wrong to launch a war on Israel for its multiple breaches of UN Resolutions over many years: So it is.
Racak Mark Two?
Tomorrow will bring Colin Powell’s presentation to the UN of evidence of Iraq’s weapons of mass destruction and links with al-Qaeda. We shall see if these revelations are any more convincing than those of Walker upon the events at Racak. These declarations serve the same purpose: to convince reluctant electorates of the justification for war.
In spite of the fact that inspectors have immediate access to any site they care to visit in Iraq they have not found evidence of weapons of mass destruction. Blair’s claim, as the Great Enabler twists the arms of his European colleagues like he did over Kosovo, is that such weapons or their components are being moved about to avoid detection. But the US boasted last week that their spy satellites had discovered the relocation of uranium fuel rods in North Korea. Thus inspectors could be directed via helicopter within minutes to intercept such movements in Iraq but none have been so directed? It is impossible for Iraq to develop weapons of mass destruction with the inspectors in place and allowed to visit any site as warned by spy satellite information.
Catch 22: According to Anglo/US interpretations if the weapons inspectors find weapons of mass destruction then Iraq will be in breach of UN Resolution 1441 and military force may be used. If the inspectors cannot find weapons of mass destruction then Iraq must have hidden them and is thus in breach of UN Resolution 1441 hence military force is justified - whether or not such weapons actually exist?
Meanwhile the real terror threat is overlooked and the bloody assault upon Iraq will recruit thousands more martyrs to the Islamic terror cause. Surely the great danger is from fissile material - of which Iraq has none - being stolen or illegally traded in Russia and its nuclear satellites, North Korea, Pakistan, India, Israel, South Africa and even the USA and Britain: god knows we harbour enough al-Qaeda sympathisers. China too has fissile material and not a few scores to settle - how about the Chinese embassy in Belgrade for starters?
As the media flatterers and parasites fawn upon their masters they make repeated references to Nato’s ‘successful’ operation in Kosovo. Do they know the catastrophe that has befallen Kosovo or are they lying in their teeth?
Don’t look for sense where there is none
There are words of sense to be read as Anglo/US aggression prepares to repeat its recent Balkan slaughter of innocents in Iraq but not from Humpty Dumpty Blair:
"Blow, blow, ye winds, with heavier gust!
And freeze, thou bitter-biting frost!
Descend, ye chilly, smothering snows!
Not all your rage, as now united, shows
More hard unkindness unrelenting,
Vengeful malice unrepenting.
Than heaven-illumin'd Man on brother Man bestows!"See stern Oppression's iron grip,
Or mad Ambition's gory hand,
Sending, like blood-hounds from the slip,
Woe, Want, and Murder o'er a land!
Ev'n in the peaceful rural vale,
Truth, weeping, tells the mournful tale,
How pamper'd Luxury, Flatt'ry by her side,
The parasite empoisoning her ear,
With all the servile wretches in the rear,
Looks o'er proud Property, extended wide;
And eyes the simple, rustic hind,
Whose toil upholds the glitt'ring show-
A creature of another kind,
Some coarser substance, unrefin'd-
Plac'd for her lordly use thus far, thus vile, below!From ‘A Winter Night’ by Robert Burns
Peter Taylor
Herts/UK - Tuesday February 04, 2003 at 10:20 pm
Hi Pera, as far as I understand, the original version of "Hej sloveni..." is much older (19th century?) than that "non-orthdox" text Frank referred to. He did not mention that in his original message assuming that "everyone knows this", and this led to my confusion (I do not speak Serbian though can understand some). With respect to Frank's attitude towards ICTY, he just tries his best to do HIS JOB as a representative of mainstream media at this forum. Do not take it toooooooo seriously! ;o)))
Pasha Ponomarenko
Australia (Ukraine) - Wednesday February 05, 2003 at 12:12 am
I wonder how far will the Serbian nationalism drag his own nation into deeper desperation where in Belgrade (sometime a real metropolitan) people have to wait in line for a litre of sun flower oil and be led by the mafia i.e. paramilitary gangsters. In the other hand I am sure that Milosevic will be still good for Serbs and Serbia since he would feed their nationalism and make them mark narratives for their grandchildren, how they were in war with the rest of the world and they won,of course just like they won the Turks. And this makes me think that the Serb nation is the most modest, they are happy with a bottle of "rakia" in the morning, telling bullshit stories about the rest of the world and watch at Milosevics'picture hanging in the wall. Serbs have all the reasons to defend their ego and Milosevic, but I have a question how can you all as human beings deny the fact that in Bosnia they killed thousands of inocent people and in Kosovo as well. People in Kosovo were cut from all the institutions and public lives just because they were not Serbs. Serbian paramilitary and military forces committed arbitrary crimes that show an animal instinct, and no one ever reacted in Belgrade against that, not againts Milosevic but against violence towards civilians. Now you tell me how human Serbs are to deserve attention from the world for anything else accept dehumanization. Milosevic should be released and headed to Belgrade because his nation deserves him.
Rita Usno
NY
USA - Wednesday February 05, 2003 at 2:30 am
"Now you tell me how human Serbs are to deserve attention from the world for anything else accept dehumanization.""The Serb nation is the most modest, they are happy with a bottle of "rakia" in the morning, telling bullshit stories about the rest of the world and watch at Milosevics'picture hanging in the wall."
These statements are nothing more than racebating and only serve to demonstrate Rita Usno's racist tendancies.
I urge the moderator to remove Rita's post because it is racist and defamatory towards Serbs in general. It is also completely irrelevant to the topic of discussion which is the trial of Slobodan Milosevic.
Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States - Wednesday February 05, 2003 at 2:46 am
I am bet the Americans are doing their best to decide which nation deserves which leader. How can anyone deny that they are willing to killing thousands of innocent people to get their will? Milosevic wouldn't be in The Hague, if Nato hadn't done that in Serbia. Nothing makes the bombing right. Some people think that we shouldn't prosecute the Nato crimes, or even talk about them, because some people's feelings would get hurt (like Mr T's, who has worked so hard).But judging by the so-called Milosevic trial, one of the nations that have not deserved Milosevic are the Dutch. Making cracks about a nation deserving Milosevic shows how political this trial is, which is the reason it should stop.
I am not sure if anyone denies that Serbs killed innocent people. At least, no-one is denying that the Bosnians did the same to some of their own to get the world's attention, so what the Serbs may have been doing by "killing innocent people" was to serve the Bosnian interests. Nato was more than glad to make the Serbs pay for it.
It is interesting that Mr T mentioned Russia and China in the list of pariah states, where it would be absurd to press charges. I am not sure whether Mr T means to press charges against that country or against Nato, but what he means is, of course, that since you couldn't press charges against that state in their own courts, they shouldn't be allowed to press charges against Nato either. In short, the Chinese and Russian courts are too much like the Dutch ones.
But the interesting thing is that Russia and China are permanent members of the Security Council. Now we have one reason why the bombing had to be called a "humanitarian intervention". That served as a pretext to bypass the Security Council vote. What would Russia and China know about a humanitarian catastrophe? They are a humanitarian catastrophe. Oddly enough, this would be a strange admission of guilt on the Western part, which used human rights as a pretext to bring the Soviet Union down and which now admits that the humanitarian situation in Russia is such as to justify ignoring the Russian vote in the Security Council. That in turn shows that the US uses the human rights only to bring down other states.
To show how undeserving the Chinese are of humanitarianism the Americans bombed the Chinese Embassy as a reminder and killed innocent civilians. The human rights situation in China and Russia is so dismal that Chinese and Russians should be killed even when they deserved diplomatic immunity (unlike the ICTY staff who use the immunity to kill other people).
So, in this persective, the Russian and the Chinese courts would be ideal fora for suing Nato (in principle). They would understand that the Nato bombing was aggression. The Chinese even had to pay for that aggression, so that would put them in the same group with the other bombing victims. It is entirely irrelevant if the bombing of the embassy was intentional or not, because the bombing of the country was intentional.
Jari Nousiainen
Finland - Wednesday February 05, 2003 at 3:15 am
Gogol has been asking for some comment on the WSJ on the ICC. One interesting thing in the article is that the likely German candidate was "politically disastrous", because he compared Bush to Hitler. And yet, the German nominee was supposed to mark the German progress since the Hitler era.There is one thing about the ICTY which should be realized now that the ICC has begun its activities (in name). The establishment of the ICTY by a Security Council fiat was rationalized, as we remember, by the Secretary-General with the urgency of the human rights violations in former Yugoslavia. But was that the real reason? The Americans are now planning a similar tribunal in Iraq. Even a Security Council blessing would be unlikely this time, but the creation of a judicial organ by an executive one would probably be considered enough justification for the Bush administration to create such a tribunal by fiat all by itself.
But the situation is quite anomalous. We have the ICC, so why establish a separate organ in Iraq? Ari Fleischer was asked this question, and he answered: "What worked in Serbia will work in Iraq."
That is a far-reaching comment. The Americans refuse to sign the ICC Statute because it is so political. Instead, they prefer a separate tribunal. The reason is that it worked in Serbia. But insofar as anything worked in Serbia, it was the political nature of the tribunal. That suggests that the political nature of the ICC is not even an excuse not to sign it. And that shows that the reason that the ICTY was created by a Security Council fiat had nothing to do with urgency. The fact that the Americans are now creating a separate organ for Iraq shows that the Americans used even the Security Council resolutions to promote their own interests. The ICTY has the same pedigree as the Saddam tribunal, and consistency would require that you can't approve of the one without the other.
That shows that the guilt has to be determined outside the ICTY. Also, the recent avalanche of "inadmissibility" decisions from the ICJ suggests one shouldn't trust even the ICJ. On the other hand, the inadmissibility doesn't mean that as long as something cannot be proven wrong, it is right, as Pera suggests. It only means that that court is not willing to take the case, which is a reason for the plaintiff to find another court which will. I would be willing to go as far as China to seek justice which the West European courts are denying.
The trouble with China is, of course, that it is perceive as partial country in the hypothetical dispute. In other words, the situation would be similar to the Milosevic trial, which is going on in one of the aggressor countries.
There is another possibility beside Zimbabwe, which I suggested: South Africa. A short while ago Mandela made a politically disasterous remark saying that the US was leading the world to a nuclear holocaust. Let us not forget that Mandela's ANC is part of the Belgrade Forum as well.
South Africa would be perceived as an impartial venue. Even the ICTY prosecution wanted to hear about the South African truth commissions. Mandela's remarks drew an angry response from the conservative press. It is clear that making more of that kind of comments would indeed bring on us a nuclear holocaust, but sometimes you have to pay a price to see justice done. Now who is willing to take the job?
J N
Finland - Wednesday February 05, 2003 at 4:27 am
I cannot believe this:USA IN ROT
ANUS TRIO
ANUS RIOT.
Where do they pick up their nicks?
J M
S - Wednesday February 05, 2003 at 5:16 am
Another interesting acquaintance is www.proislam.org. Their list of Anti-Islam personalities (or actually "targeted individuals", as the address suggests) is especially enlightening. Visit http://www.proislam.com/targeted_individuals.htm . Here you will find Vladimir Putin's name. Michael Savage is attacked by these Muslims because he is against women and gays! Parvin Darabi is attacked for something she said about the Serb attacks in Kosovo. Etc.
J N
Finland - Wednesday February 05, 2003 at 5:19 am
Oo, it was proislam.COM. The Townhall colums were down, so it will take a while before I will find the angry comment on Mandela's holocaust speech.
J N
Finland - Wednesday February 05, 2003 at 5:55 am
Andy, on Jan 30th there was a technical problem in the xs4all network; the connection between the Hague and the Amsterdam-based RealServers broke down - and hence the recording-to-disk for Bard stopped (recording is done on the servers). I have applied for a DVCam tape to create the missing Internet footage for Bard - hopefully late next week.
Frank Tiggelaar
Holland - Wednesday February 05, 2003 at 6:06 am
Pasha
I am sorry I assumed you, and others, were aware that 'Hej sloveni' was the national anthem of the Yugoslavia that ceased to exist at 00:00 this morning. A search on Google will give you text, composer information and a translation.
Frank Tiggelaar
Holland - Wednesday February 05, 2003 at 6:29 am
Mr. Nousiainen
You are right saying that the Dutch state has a problem enforcing legistlation. The most obvious example is (soft) drugs. International treaties signed by Holland forbid cannabis, yet there have been over 300 'distribution outlets' in Amsterdam for the past 30 years - overtly and unpunished.
Having said that, it may interest you to know that the European Court of Human Rights ruled yesterday that the treatment of prisoners in Holland's maximum-security prison is unacceptible. The ECHR's website contains a Press Release with more details.
I suppose this is a road open to Mr. Milosevic's lawyers as well, if they feel his human rights are violated.
Frank Tiggelaar
Holland - Wednesday February 05, 2003 at 8:25 am
Serbian(s)... show an animal instinctRita..........Thank you for your illuminating contribution to this forum. Keep it up, perhaps the Tribunal, Domovina, or IWPR need new writers.
AP V
NY
NY - Wednesday February 05, 2003 at 9:35 am
Sorry if I gave the impression of a racist, Andy. But since I don't know if you were ever in Kosovo or Bosnia, so I can not ask you a question. Nevertheless, NATO bombing or any kind of bombing is not right, but Milosevic and his people certanly started bombing and massacring first and there are deeper and confidential evidence for that in the Tribunal as well. As about the Chinese Embassy, they were bombed because they had amunition and Serb military equipment in their basements and the detectors to the military equipment are very sensitive... but who could assume that the Chinese besides donating to Mira Markovic a China town in every corner og Belgrade they would help her cover the brutal actions as well. Peoples' lives in Bosnia and Kosovo were destryed by Milosevics'regime not by NATO bombing. You should have started a column like this one when he was leading the genocide, and comment how is it possible that in the middle of Europe there were rape camps, a city of dead bodies and gosts like Vukovar,mass killing of kosovar children found in the mountains by the investigators of ICTY and so and on. By the way in New York 14th of Feb. there will be a symposium in honor of the bosnian women survivors from thos rape camps that some of you don't like to belive they exsisted. In peace, Rita
Rita Rita
USA - Wednesday February 05, 2003 at 9:50 am
Integrity of values at the UNO;
Powell Without Picasso
There is one type of banner which comes to mind.By MAUREEN DOWD
WASHINGTON
When Colin Powell goes to the United Nations today to make his case for war with Saddam, the U.N. plans to throw a blue cover over Picasso's antiwar masterpiece, "Guernica."
Too much of a mixed message, diplomats say. As final preparations for the secretary's presentation were being made last night, a U.N. spokesman explained, "Tomorrow it will be covered and we will put the Security Council flags in front of it."
Mr. Powell can't very well seduce the world into bombing Iraq surrounded on camera by shrieking and mutilated women, men, children, bulls and horses.
Reporters and cameras will stake out the secretary of state at the entrance of the U.N. Security Council, where the tapestry reproduction of "Guernica," contributed by Nelson Rockefeller, hangs.
The U.N. began covering the tapestry last week after getting nervous that Hans Blix's head would end up on TV next to a screaming horse head.
(Maybe the U.N. was inspired by John Ashcroft's throwing a blue cover over the "Spirit of Justice" statue last year, after her naked marble breast hovered over his head during a televised terrorism briefing.)
Nelson Rockefeller himself started the tradition of covering up art donated by Nelson Rockefeller when he sandblasted Diego Rivera's mural in the RCA Building in 1933 because it included a portrait of Lenin. (Rivera later took his revenge, reproducing the mural for display in Mexico City, but adding to it a portrait of John D. Rockefeller Jr. drinking a martini with a group of "painted ladies.")
There has been too much sandblasting in Washington lately.
After leading the charge for months that there were ties between Iraq and Al Qaeda, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld chastised the media yesterday for expecting dramatic, explicit evidence from Mr. Powell. "The fixation on a smoking gun is fascinating to me," he said impatiently, adding: "You all . . . have been watching `L.A. Law' or something too much."
The administration's argument for war has shifted in a dizzying Cubist cascade over the last months. Last summer, Bush officials warned that Saddam was close to building nuclear bombs. Now, with intelligence on aluminum tubes, once deemed proof of an Iraqi nuclear program, in dispute, the administration's emphasis has tacked back to germ and chemical weapons. With no proof that Saddam has given weapons to terrorists, another once-crucial part of the case for going to war, Mr. Rumsfeld and others now frame their casus belli prospectively: that we must get rid of Saddam because he will soon become the gulf's leading weapons supplier to terrorists.
Secretary Powell was huddling on the evidence in New York yesterday with the C.I.A. director, George Tenet. Mr. Tenet was there to make sure nothing too sensitive was revealed at the U.N., but mainly to lend credibility to Mr. Powell's brief, since there have been many reports that the intelligence agency has been skeptical about some of the Pentagon and White House claims on Iraq. It was Mr. Tenet who warned Congress in a letter last fall that there was only one circumstance in which the U.S. need worry about Iraq sharing weapons with terrorists: if Washington attacked Saddam.
When Mr. Bush wanted to sway opinion on Iraq before his State of the Union speech last week, he invited columnists to the White House. But he invited only conservative columnists, who went from gushing about the president to gushing more about the president.
The columnists did not use Mr. Bush's name, writing about him as "a senior administration official," even though the White House had announced the meeting in advance.
They quoted "the official" about the president's determination on war. That's just silly.
Calling in only like-minded journalists is like campaigning for a war only in the red states that Mr. Bush won in 2000, and not the blue states won by Al Gore.
When France and Germany acted skeptical, Mr. Rumsfeld simply booted them out of modern Europe, creating a pro-Bush red part of the European map (led by Poland, Italy and Britain) and the left-behind blue of "old Europe."
When the evidence is not black and white, the president must persuade everyone. There is no red and blue. There is just red, white and blue.
Today's NYT for fair use only
Gogol Charlemagne
Conn., USA - Wednesday February 05, 2003 at 10:05 am
Croatian army chief determined unfit to stand trial
Did I hear someone say 'Pinochet'?
Pluz:
Kosovar Abuse Victims in Jeopardy
Alexei Gorbulski
Brussels
Soviet Socialist Republic of Belgium! ;) - Wednesday February 05, 2003 at 10:56 am
The US said that the bombing of the embassy was a mistake. They were not trying to justify it. I would be surprised if they were no court cases in China about this. As everybody agrees, the bombing was not right. Those who started it are war criminals, and as long as they are free, we are nothing but a bunch of failures.
J N
Finland - Wednesday February 05, 2003 at 10:58 am
To: ModeratorI support Andy Wilcoxon's suggestion that Rita's post (starting with "I wonder ...") should be removed. The post is racist, paranoid and full of nonsense.
Pythagoras Crotoniatis
Athens
Greece - Wednesday February 05, 2003 at 10:59 am
Rita:When did Serbs started bombing first?
Some people are completely blind and deaf. Of course for you there is no value in documents what Milosevic presented related to Croatian official orders to attack JNA, as well as documents related to the Bosnian Inernal Ministry of Affairs.
Or you mean that Ante Markovic, Anton Tus, Stane Brovet, Konard Kolsek, Marijan Cad, Martin Spegelj, Zvonko Jurjevic and Stipe Mesic represented Milosevic and Serbs when Markovic issued unconstitutional order and others carried out deployment of JNA on the Slovenian border (btw JNA was already deployed constitutionally to protect SFRJ border at the time).
Do you know that the night before Markovic issued order he met with James Baker in Belgrade?
Do you know for killings in Nova Gradiska, Pakrac, Pakracka Poljana, Grubisino Polje, Karlovac, Gospic, Ogulin, Plitvicka jezera, Dabar, Karlobag, Zadar. Attack on JNA tank in Split etc. Do you want Names and Dates? - ask Carla
Do you know that most of these above mentioned crimes were carried by Croatian police and ZNG?
As for Bosnia do you know for wedding in Sarajevo?
If you don't know what is Genocide - read about it - as far as I can see this only happend to Serbs in Krajina and Kosovo. Please, give me your arguments that it is not.
To make clear a song that Frank Tiggelaar reffers to:
“Hej Slaveni sta bi” was written and sang by “Indexovo Pozoriste”. The song sarcastically describes the position of the Serbian people in the international relationship and directly criticized Milosevic at the time.
Song lists titles of the other international (communist) anthems and in fact ironically shows while everybody else in ex in Yugoslavia had own anthem the Serbians were still internationals (as I see it) and song list countries which Tigelaar said - which recognized Yugoslavia at the time.
The relation between “Hej Slaveni” and that song is just in title and there is to emphasize the time and sad position of the Serbian people. “Hej” in Serbian could mean “appeal”. In this case, appeal to something that does not exist (related to the South Slavs).
Song was quite popular and the group as well; they had many plays and always criticized politicians in power. I guess that shows the freedom of speech.
Pero Peric
Canada - Wednesday February 05, 2003 at 11:03 am
Haha, what happened to the 1789 tort act ?
Gypsies' Suit Against I.B.M. Is Given Green Light by Swiss Court
From today's NYT for fair use only.By PETER S. GREEN
RAGUE, Feb. 4 ? A Swiss court has cleared the way for hearings in a $12 billion lawsuit against the computer giant I.B.M. by a group of Gypsy organizations, which are arguing that the company helped the Nazis automate the Holocaust.
About 600,000 Gypsies, mainly from Central and Eastern Europe, are thought to have been killed by the Nazis and their allies during the Holocaust, and the Gypsies have long argued that they are its forgotten victims. In a ruling made public this week, a Geneva court said preliminary hearings in the case could go ahead on March 20.
Despite a wave of recent settlements in Germany and Switzerland involving surviving victims of the Holocaust and their descendants, Gypsies have been largely excluded from compensation payments and other funds.
"The point is not to make a profit from the Holocaust," said Pastor May Bittel, a Swiss Gypsy who is president of Gypsy International Recognition and Compensation Action, an association of more than 600 Gypsy organizations, which brought the lawsuit.
"We want this business to be exposed, and we want our people to taste justice after so many years," Pastor Bittel said in a telephone interview.
If successful, the suit could bring payments to the few living Gypsy Holocaust survivors, and could finance health, social and educational projects for the estimated 1.2 million survivors and their descendants in Europe.
As a group, Europe's Gypsies are the poorest of its poor, and a recent United Nations report said that in parts of Europe Gypsies live in poverty approaching that found in sub-Saharan Africa.
The Gypsies are basing their case largely on accusations in a controversial book by Edwin Black, "I.B.M. and the Holocaust: The Strategic Alliance Between Nazi Germany and America's Most Powerful Corporation," published in 2001. Mr. Black argues that before and during World War II, I.B.M. provided the punch-cards and early computers that allowed Nazi Germany to organize the attempted extermination of the Jews and Gypsies of Europe.
I.B.M., which is based in New York, allegedly ran the operation to help the Nazis from an office in Geneva, according to the Gypsies' lawsuit.
Brian Doyle, a spokesman for I.B.M. in New York, said the company believed the case was "without merit." A previous lawsuit by Jewish Holocaust survivors against I.B.M. was dropped when the plaintiffs' lawyer said he feared the suit would block a settlement with Germany and Switzerland on other Holocaust compensation.
I.B.M.'s founder, Thomas J. Watson, received a medal from Hitler in 1937.
"With these machines, the Nazis went much more quickly and killed far more people," said Pastor Bittel, "and I.B.M. designed the material for the Nazis and it knew full well it was aiding the Holocaust."
Reviewing Mr. Black's book in The New York Times, Gabriel Schoenfeld said Mr. Black was "struggling to force his evidence into a box in which it does not fit," although he added that the book showed there was "room for a serious study of I.B.M.'s complicated and by no means innocent relationship with Nazi Germany."
Gogol Charlemagne
Conn., USA - Wednesday February 05, 2003 at 11:44 am
Correction, again it should be right now:
The Link: Croatian Invasion 1995Moderator, Could you please remove my previous two post with a wrong link.
Thanks
Pero Peric
Canada - Wednesday February 05, 2003 at 12:11 pm
Dear Rita, When it comes to Bosnia and Kosovo, did you read any statistics? How many of those who died are actually solders that died in battle? As for Kosovo, did you EVER heard about 1998 and café “Panda” in Pec where Albanian terrorist killed around 20 children ages 12 to 17? I did not see CNN reporting on it. And I did not see your president condemning it. When it comes to Bosnia and ESPECIALY Srebrenica did you EVER heard of Naser Oric and Bloody Christmas when Serbian village Kravica was attacked (using UN safe haven Srebrenica as a base). On Christmas morning, January 7, 1993, 3,000 Muslim fighters led by Naser Oric attacked. A fierce battle ensued and thanks to the courage of Serb fighters in the village, many civilians managed to make it out of Kravica. Everyone who remained in Kravica was slaughtered. The final score of "the bloody Christmas" was 46 dead and 36 injured soldiers and civilians. According to the testimony of the survivors, even dogs and cats were shot while all houses in the village, numbering 690, were looted and set on fire. Grave markers at the Orthodox cemetery were destroyed and desecrated, and even the bodies of the deceased were not spared from looting and desecration. And this is just one of the examples. I do not sit with bottle of rakia and Slob picture on the wall. I do not like him or support him. But that does not stop me from defending truth. As a Serbian whose family fought First and Second WW against Germany, whose family stood up on March 27, 1941 an said “Better grave than a slave “ to Germans, whose family lost 97 members in two wars, I have every right to stand up and hold my chin up. As for you, coming from a nation that celebrates Truman who is responsible for Hiroshima and Nagasaki, that celebrates Vietnam and bombing of Cambodia, anything bad you say about Serbs I take as a compliment.
Ana Dakic
Serbia - Wednesday February 05, 2003 at 12:22 pm
Thanks, Pero, for giving us the background of the song "Hej Slaveni sta bi". This could indeed be the trump card the prosecution will use to show that Milosevic indeed committed the alleged genocide. By the way, why settle for the killing of 7,000-8,000 Muslim men and boys in Srebrenica? It would be much more impressive to put the number at, say, 10 million. The evidence would support such a claim just as well as the more conservative 8,000. The human remains hardly meet the 1,200 target of the Erdemovic judgment.But that is exactly why we have "Hej Slaveni sta bi". Indeed, this song connects Milosevic to the genocide, which would seem hard to prove otherwise, judging by Ms Rita Rita's general slurs about rakia-sipping Serbs, which she softens into the more politically correct indictment of Milosevic, which is still the same thing.
"Mr T" syndrome again: we should not question the claims made by those who have put so much time and effort into perpetuating the tales of a genocide. That is a personal insult to them. Ms Rita Rita said something of a symposium. See?
Then they start suggesting that I should write about the human rights situation in Cuba or the Serb-inflicted genocide. Maybe they need some fresh blood to rehash their old "bullshit stories" (which they should start looking much closer to themselves), which have not one shred of evidence to support them. But the story gets the better the more people there are to tell it.
Well, why don't you start writing and holding symposia about the Nato-inflicted "genocide"? No talent or previous experience is needed here, because the "thing speaks for itself".
OK, Alexei warned us about the spin of the Chinese embassy. Unlike other "collateral damage", this time the sensors had detected military equipment in the basement. Funny that it took so long to think about this explanation. And even if there were military equipment (which probably means knives and forks), are we now free to bomb the Scheveningen detention center, because are sensors are detecting some things we don't like?
Good, though, that we brought up the Chinese. You know, the whole problem is this. The bombing was illegal. Everybody knows that. Few draw the logical conclusion that the perpetrators are war criminals who should be jailed and their states should be made to repair the damage. The US government knew it was at a predicament. Ahtisaari tells us that this was why the Americans had to indict Milosevic, i.e. to give some retrospective justification to the whole mess. And that is the problem we are wrestling with right now. A court case after court case is thrown out, because the Milosevic trial has given rise to some documents which the courts like to pull out of the hat. Even the ICJ fears to tread on this hallowed ground.
Now the trick is to turn the secret formula around. It is not true that the indictment sanctifies the bombing. We must show that the bombing contaminates the indictment. The problem is that the indictment and the trial are supposed to speak for themselves. People can come up with the wildest claims about genocide, rape camps and babies buried in mountains. I would never have believe some really believe that. Wonder what the symposium will be like. Hey, you forgot about the incineration of the Albanian in Trepca.
In normal circumstances it would be enough to argue before a court that the bombing was an unlawful act and therefore the perpetrator has to repair the damage. Now the individual criminal responsibility messes up the picture. The only way to break the deadlock is to produce a court case establishing the criminal responsibility in regard to the bombing. That is why I am thinking about the Chinese. They may have such a case, but we will never be likely to hear about it. There would be no reason to resort to universal jurisdiction, because the Chinese were the victims of the bombing in a diplomatically protected area in Yugoslavia. This could have some interesting implications. What the Chinese might need reminding of is the "concurrent jurisdiction" which would give the Chinese court the power to indict the perpetrators. Despite the ideological differences, people might recognise the force of such a judgment, because the Chinese do have a real legal interest in the decision.
J N
Finland - Wednesday February 05, 2003 at 12:38 pm
And I am almost sorry to bring up the old comparison again, but if the situation of ethnic minorities what the "intervention" was about, one has to wonder why Nato never "intervened" in Turkey, which has remained a proud member of the Council of Europe all this time, unlike Yugoslavia, which was thrown out. I had forgotten all about this oldie, which is submerged in the trendy rhetoric about Israel and Turkey being the only democracies in the Middle East.By the way, once the bombing is shown to be illegal, the Kosovo case starts crumbling first. This indictment covers acts which allegedly took place after the bombing had started. In fact, the indictment covers explicitly the period from January 1999 onwards.
The Racak "massacre", which took place before the bombing, just manages to make the indictment. There is at least one thing that makes the Racak massacre very quaint even by the looks of it. When Yugoslavia declared Walker persona non grata, why did Rubin react? What was he trying to prove? That Walker was a bona fide OSCE official just doing the job of verifying massacres? No, Rubin confirmed just what the Yugoslavs were alleging: that Walker had some ulterior motives to conclude there was a massacre. Now that ulterior motive has a name: James Rubin. The phone call to Holbrooke hardly points in a different direction.
J N
Finland - Wednesday February 05, 2003 at 1:00 pm
The Google search showed that some CIA agent had sued the US for the bombing of the Chinese embassy in Belgrade. This is getting interesting. The lack of law suits in the US in regard to the bombing is a mystery to everybody, so what happened to this one?
J N
Finland - Wednesday February 05, 2003 at 1:02 pm
JN, don't talk about the Recak massacre unless you were there, because those massacres happened in Kosovo every day the last four months before Nato bombing, I reported on them by the way. I reported also in the hospital bombing in Belgrade as well and inocent civilians were there as well. Noone is saying that bombing was right but my question is how can you justify horrors that Serb authorities did to Albanian nation in Kosovo? There were 50.000 troops and 300 guerrillas how can this be measured? Wake up my friend, I am getting the impression you are forgeting about the importance of peoples' lives trying to prove Nato bombing wrong. Its probably easy for all of you to talk since you were reading the NYTimes in in your bed while people were killed massively by Milosevics'army. Pithagoras, nomizo oti esis ehete alla provlimata ta skeftese, malon to provlima tu Kipru. May peace be with all your disturbed minds!
Rita Rita
USA - Wednesday February 05, 2003 at 1:09 pm
Ana & Pero,I would just ignore Rita if I were you. She is obviously just a racist. Sure she tries to deny it now, but she said what she said and proved herself beyond any doubt to be a racist.
You can see by the way she writes that she's poorly educated, which is typical for a racist. If there is one thing that is as sure as death and taxes it is that there is nothing you can say that will influence a half-witted biggot.
Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States - Wednesday February 05, 2003 at 1:43 pm
Oh dear, an 'expert' journalist! One must do away with those lying politicans and rely on the worlds' second worst profession!Am still waiting for NATO to produce 10,000 dead.
Alexei Gorbulski
Brussels
Soviet Socialist Republic of Belgium! ;) - Wednesday February 05, 2003 at 1:47 pm
300's?
The KLA, whose strength has been estimated at between 10,000 and 20,000, began an armed campaign against Serb rule in Kosovo last year after the province's ethnic Albanian majority had suffered years of repression at the hands of Belgrade.
From CNN
Gogol Charlemagne
Conn., USA - Wednesday February 05, 2003 at 1:47 pm
G C
USA - Wednesday February 05, 2003 at 1:49 pm
Rita:Yes the massacres are happening every day, today is February 5 2003 and read what is happening in South Serbia:
13:48 - Last night in the village of Levosoje, a hand grenade has been thrown at the house of Branislav Milosavljevic , a member of Bujanovac police force, Bujanovac press center announces. Preliminary investigation has shown that the bomb was of Chinese make. There were no casualties in that incident.
09:00 - A member of the Security and Informative Agency (BIA), the former state Security Service Seljver Fazliju has been killed last night in Bujanovac. Two masked assailants opened fire from automatic weapons on Fazliju. Nebojsa Covic, the chief of the Coordinating Body for the South of Serbia condemned the murder of Fazliju, father of three. According to present information, assailants escaped towards the village of Veliki Trnovac.
And Rita if you were listening to the KLA Komander in Racak who was witnessing at Hague he said that they (KLA) had only aroung racak between 1300 and 1400 men.
How many troops there are now in Kosovo, you said there were 50000 YU troops in Kosovo?
Yes I can agree with you from your previous post that you reported on all crimes, now I know how.
BTW did you visit the link that I pointed to:
I was not in my bed reading NY Times as you said, forgetting about human lives, but you who reported, on those crimes forgot to report on many that I know, real crimes and real people
In one of my posts above I listed some of the cities where crimes took place, and if you are a real reporter go in investigate a little I pointed you to right direction.
I would not post this as Andy suggested but when I read your post about reporting I had to do it since such a reporting as yours made many people miserable, and contributed to the genocide, what my links refers to.
Rita who pays you?
Pero Peric
Canada - Wednesday February 05, 2003 at 1:51 pm
Come on Alexei, what do you have against those beatiful dolls in shop windows the trade mark of Holland?
Can't buy me love!!!
Gogol Charlemagne
Conn., USA - Wednesday February 05, 2003 at 1:55 pm
Now, this is real a stupid statement also from CNN:
The Serbs' brutal response to the offensive prompted NATO's bombing of Yugoslavia earlier this year, which drove all Serb forces from Kosovo in June and established a de facto international protectorate in the province.
So killing went on, under the protectorate internationally happy.
Gogol Charlemagne
Conn., USA - Wednesday February 05, 2003 at 3:38 pm
Pasha, in my last post to Frank, I tried to indicate that his political position and deep knowledge of Slavs and their languages and who may understand whom and especially cultural scene in Belgrade and lack of interest if justice is done to his compatriots in Dutchbat clearly indicate that Frank is a Bosnian Muslim by birth and that he is hiding behind a Dutch name. This morning, his reaction to final dissolution of Yugoslavia and knowledge when and who has written "Hej sloveni..." just additionally supports my suspicions. Frank, has said that he is an activist behind domovina.net web site. In English this site would be named: homland.net. Frank, when you guys chose the name "domovina.net" for which part of the former Yugoslavia the homlend.net does stand for?
Pera Bora
Ottawa
Canada - Wednesday February 05, 2003 at 4:11 pm
Dear Rita, This is what your “innocent” Bosnian Muslims from Srebrenica were doing behind UN back. If you have any guts open this link http://www.webheaven.co.yu/usa/hague94.htm or http://www.webheaven.co.yu/usa/hague95.htm
Ana Dakic
Serbia - Wednesday February 05, 2003 at 4:48 pm
The google search is really excellent.
Domovina Net is a project of Croatia and Bosnia Infopages in Europe
http://www.domovina.net/Site/info_eng.html
Pera Bora
Ottawa
Canada - Wednesday February 05, 2003 at 5:18 pm
The International Court of Justice (ICJ) ordered the United States to halt executions of three Mexican nationals sentenced to death by its courts.
Will they obey?
Gogol Charlemagne
Conn., USA - Wednesday February 05, 2003 at 6:03 pm
The following quote is taken from the URL:
http://domovina.xs4all.nl/credits.html
As the project's coordinator (Frank Tigglar), I would like to express my gratitude to the organisations and individuals who help make Tribunal Live - Tribunal Uzivo a daily reality. They include the organisations mentioned above, but also the ICTY's Public Information Services, Internet Unit, IT Services, and the ICTY Outreach Programme. Special credits must go to Nic at XS4ALL Internet, Frédérique and Armin at the ICTY, Stanimir at FreeSerbia, Danielle at Bard, and Mensur at RFE/RL.
Frank Tiggelaar Tribunal Live - Tribunal Uzivo Domovina Net
Frank is the Editor of the www.domovina.net, as well
Pera Bora
Ottawa
Canada - Wednesday February 05, 2003 at 6:24 pm
Thank you Andy (the tin expert on education level)! Pero and Ana,I just want to thank you for the web sites, they are indeed helpful. I was in many places in the Balkans though during those years and I have more or less seen what has happened throughout the years. I happened to check this web site for another reason but it seems that I flew into discussion since I felt a part of the stories are just against the US and Nato invasion to enlight Milosevic and he certanly wasn't any good for his nation. So, I am wondering in which basis Andy writes if he had never been in any of the YU wars? And how good is he informed from the Media that is controlled by the United States, and to rely on information from the media that plays by the rules of US politics,and he does not support that politics...it seems contradictive to me. But in the states there are a lot of "good educated" people that live on top of ideas written by someone else. However,there were victims from all nations and you have to face that, after you accept reality you might change the future for better in you country. Besides, Yugoslavia doesn't exist anymore...so why bother.
Rita Rita
USA - Wednesday February 05, 2003 at 6:29 pm
Rita,The Serbian animals are gone yet the civilian murder rate in Kosovo and Metohija has risen fourfold. Could it be possible that HumWarriors beloved KLA has been murdering Albanians all along ?
Every day there are shocking new revelations coming out of the ICTY hearings. Check out the reports posted here. You'll learn quite a bit.
It was at the ICTY that we learned that the KLA commander at Racak gangpressed a few dozen villagers.
It was at the ICTY that we learned at least 1/3 of the bodies found in and around Srebrenica were members of the 28th BiH killed in a fair fight
It was at the ICTY that we learned that the unelected Iztbegovic regime issued written orders to paramilitary units to start attacking government offices and soldiers.
It was also at the ICTY that we learned that in addition to the 2 highly publicized bombing attacksd against Kosovo refugees, there were many more instances in which refugee columns were bombed and strafed by US and English war planes.
Finally, we learned at the ICTY that the extremist HDZ paramilitaries occupying Dubrovnik engaged in a wild orgy of racist violence before sallying forth to attack surrounding villages.
Today at the ICTY, we learned that the head of the Vukovar hospital sucked the blood from civilians dragged in from the streets. We also learned that HDZ paramilitaries apparently in a excess of patriotic zeal collected civilians hostages.
The HumWarriors would do well spending their time reading reports posted here. The revelations are truely shocking.
AP V
NY
NY - Wednesday February 05, 2003 at 6:30 pm
Pero, I am laughing with your comment "Who pays you" It is a clear indication that you people of the Balkans/Serbia are used to corruption and probably assume that everyone else is too. To ease you pain, I will tell you that noone is paying me. Enjoy your day!
Rita Rita
USA - Wednesday February 05, 2003 at 6:36 pm
Yeah its ICTY where you'll probably learn how Milosevic is innocent and he'll be released, I seriously hope so. As I said Serbia needs a leader as him to crack them totally down. Or, did I get you wrong? I think you are trying to prove Milosevic is innocent. Take care buddy, don't go to far.
Rita Rita
USA - Wednesday February 05, 2003 at 7:05 pm
Dear Rita, You said that you saw what was gong on in FORMER Yugoslavia. So did I. As a doctor, I saw a 72-year-old Serb refugee from Vukovar that had to hide for three months in septic tank so that he is not killed by Vucovar Croatian forces. I so a Muslim family " ethnically cleansed" from Bosnia by Bosnian Serbs that took shelter in Belgrade a CAPITAL OF SERBIA (isn't it ironic, don't you think?). I also so census from 2001 in Croatia, Bosnia, Serbia and Kosovo and I saw that Serbia was the ONLY one that kept its national profile as before war. I also saw and heard CNN reporting from SPLIT in May of 1991 during which time Croatian ustasa and their supporters strangled a JNA solder from Macedonia. As the Croatian crowd was shouting "ZIDOVI, ZIDOVI" (Jews, Jews) I was wondering why CNN is not translating. I saw a Serbian girl from Bosanski Brod being raped by Muslims for three months. I saw a lot. And more I saw more I started to despise your kind. A kind worse than a war profiteer called a antiwar profiteer. I believe in law. I believe in justice. I want everybody responsible to pay for his or her crimes. EVERYBODY not just Serbs. BTW, you should visit another web site http://www.cdsp.neu.edu/info/students/marko/vukovar.html
Ana Dakic
Serbia - Wednesday February 05, 2003 at 7:15 pm
Rita please, [p]We are [i]Serbian animals[/i] or [i]disturbed minds[/i] as you said, why you are wasting time wiht us?[/p]
Vedran Tosic
Netherlands - Wednesday February 05, 2003 at 7:23 pm
Ups, sorry for my HTML skill.
Vedran Tosic
Netherlands - Wednesday February 05, 2003 at 7:48 pm
Rita,
well you said you were reporting from Serbia. - My question was simple who paid you for reporting? - That does not have to do anything with corruption.As regard to corruption you should start from something that is closer to you Enron, WorldCom, Global Crossing...
I never said Milosevic was innocent; as I do not know that, but evidence that is produced do not convince me yet he is guilty.
On the other hand there are many crimes, and I told you were; that could be easily proved and nobody investigate them, that drives me into conclusion that this trial is one sided and is covering something, something that is very huge and dangerous.
I am not saying that Serbs did not commit crimes, and nobody on this forum does; what I am saying that, I cannot understand that Serbia itself has 800,000 thousand refugees, with mixed ethnic groups and all other ex Yugoslavia states including Kosovo are completely ethnically clean, and yet only Serbs are indicted for ethnical cleansing.
Any State president makes public appearances and reviews laws. As far as I see it I don’t know any racist law in Yugoslavia and I did not see any of his speeches as nationalistic and chauvinistic or he made intention to go to war.
I guess any President makes clear in public appearances what his attentions are: Like Jeljcin going to war in Chechnya, like Clinton to bomb Yugoslavia, like Izetbegovic in his book and in public speeches, like Tudjman etc.
If you want link to these I can provide it on your request and give you even more examples.
I am sure that Austria won’t go to war soon, since they don’t say so.
And regarding war in Croatia in 1991, if JNA did not follow current constitution and laws Which laws it should have been following? - Tudjman’s. Izetbegovic’s or perhaps yours.
Pero Peric
Canada - Wednesday February 05, 2003 at 7:48 pm
Dear Rita, since I was in many places in the Balkans during, before and after the conflicts and I saw what I saw with my impartial eyes (NOT WITH A SERB EYE LIKE MOST OF THE PEOPLE HERE GIVING COMMENTS!!!) I can tell u that I totaly agree with you and if the serbs and milosevic are suffering for the post war conditions what can I say.... EVERY BODY GETS WHAT THEY DESERVE!!!!!! or better, EVERYBODY GETS WHAT THEY ARE LOOKING FOR!!!!
Francois Delon
Belgium - Wednesday February 05, 2003 at 8:08 pm
FrancoisAre the Albanians getting what they deserved ?
Since NATO unleashed the KLA/KPC upon the people of Kosovo, the civilian murder rate has risen fourfold
Some 2,000 civilians have been murdered in Kosovo and Metohija since Belgium soldiers took responsibility for the safety and security of the area.
Is it your position that those Albanians murdered by KPL under the operational control of Belgium and Kfor officers............"DESERVED WHAT THEY GOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
Are you proud that forces under the operational control of Belgians murdered anti-KLA Albanians ?
AP V
NY
NY - Wednesday February 05, 2003 at 8:12 pm
To: RitaGREEKS UNDERSTAND THE KOSOVO ALBANIAN CLAN-BASED VIOLENT SOCIETAL STRUCTURE
As you note, we Greeks do care about Cyprus. Greek Cypriots have been ethnically cleansed from northern Cyprus. We also care about Serbs, Roma, Jews, other minorities and loyalist ethnic Albanians who have been cleansed from Kosovo since 1999. We are keenly aware that the root of the Kosovo problem is the extremely repressive, backward and violent northern Albania / Kosovo code of Lek - based societal structure, ruled by powerful, bloodthirsty clan leaders who functioned as KLA leaders and continue to function as heroin barons and sex slave traders, as is well known to KFOR and to every European police force. Kosovo Albanians are continued to be terrorized and killed by Thaci, Haradinaj and their like. If you are Albanian, it is your clan leaders, not the Serbs, who are your true enemy.
Pythagoras Crotoniatis
Athens
Greece - Wednesday February 05, 2003 at 9:06 pm
PCyou forgot to mention Major General Rustem Mustafa (aka Commander Remi) and his deputy Commander Gashi.
Remi and the paramiltaries under his command were repsonsible for killing dozens of Albanians prior to the bombing. Remi's criminal spree prior to the bombing has been well documented and has been reprinted in numerous websites.
Acording to his press officer, Remi's unit also rounded up some 160,000 Albanian civilians during the bombing campaign and expelled them. A group of Albanian civilians who apparently refused to be expelled was found murdered.
After 2 1/2 years of running amok in Kfor occupied Kosovo, Remi's murderous antics were too much even for his Kfor handlers. Remi and Gashi now languish in prison. The charges........killing Albanians.
AP V
NY
NY - Wednesday February 05, 2003 at 9:10 pm
I hope that Mr. Delon and Mrs. Rita would be allowd to testify in the ICTY as soon as possible. The high quality, reliable witnesses are necessary immediately, as Mr. Nice has pointed out, otherwise the prosecution case will crumble soon. The court case that I am watching in the Hague is totally different from what they are talking about.
Pera Bora
Ottawa
Canada - Wednesday February 05, 2003 at 10:33 pm
The JURIST Moderator seems to forget to split up the current discussion page from time to time: the archive segments regularly cover only 2-3 days, but the recent page numbered as much as 11 (from 26 Jan. to 5 Feb), therefore us with lower speed were unable to download the whole page for days. Now he finally did the splitting. Please, Moderator, keep that in mind. Thanks.Meanwhile, there was some vigorous, though yucky defence of the Official Truth available on this forum recently. Does this mean that the Official Truth is feeble and needs to be defended? That not even those skilful PR firms and all those mainstream media busy demonising for more than 10 years didn't do their job properly after all? That there are still some people who have doubts and refuse to be persuaded? Good.
Frank, please come up with something other than that 'your hero' slur. If you believe this is all about Milosevic being someone's hero, than you really don't understand a thing. And avoid mentioning this financing of a monument, it is in bad taste and cynical. Almost as cynical as naming your site 'Domovina' (this means homeland). Whose homeland, Frank, sorry? This is the word that is the same in all versions of the language which in the ICTY newspeak bears the monstrous name of BHS, so it is obviously being usurped. The same usurpation as carving one's domovina by destroying somebody else's domovina, and with a little help from your fair country.
Yes, Andy, there's something fishy in the FreeSerbia abundant knowledge about the protected witness C-013: as far as I saw, his former position was never mentioned in the open segments of the session, apart from the most broad 'a member of the police'. There was certainly no mention of him being the 'secretary of interior affairs of SAO Slavonija, Baranja and Western Srem'. Other two outlets that publish their reports about goings-on at The Hague (IWPR and CIJ hosted by B92 site) never mentioned that, too. The only reference that the CIJ gives of C-013 is that he was 'a member of the local Serbian police in the Vukovar area', and the IWPR said that 'before the war in Croatia, he worked for the police in Vukovar'. So, these two were obviously more prudent than FreeSerbia, and they were not shut down. My guess is that all three are getting inside info from the ICTY on a regular basis, as well as guidelines on what is the current issue to be emphasized in their reports, only that the scribe from FreeSerbia got mixed up a bit.
Re closed vs. open sessions, it is certain that the final verdict would be doubted by the public if the 'tribunal' keeps ordering too many private sessions and it seems that even such a small public as this which actually follows the Milosevic trial is still too much people aware of the scam (or who don't 'have an informed sense of Milosevic's guilt or innocence' - this is an understatement from the CIJ). Therefore, it is necessary to build up a reason for the lack of credible, strong witnesses: it is the intimidation of witnesses, and by no other than the accused! Listen to the CIJ's Judith Armatta's shrewd explanation of this scheme: "Of greater concern is that the Tribunal itself will lack key evidence, as witnesses withdraw or decide against coming forward. When investigating who is the source of the leaks, it would be well to keep in mind who stands to benefit from them." Well done, CIJ, the accused is smeared and guidelines followed to a point. Mirko Klarin in the latest IWPR piece followed the lead.
After the flat-voiced, obviously under-duress witness C-013, and the scam with the no-show threatened witness, the Prosecution came up with one Charles Kirudja, a former UNPROFOR civil official in CRO and B&H and he took almost 3 days. His mealy-mouthed talk may deceive into believing he speaks the truth, but such an impression quickly fades away. He describes something that resembles to be positive for Milosevic or the JNA or the Serbs, and then twists and turns it upside down, leaving ugly hints. One example: When asked in the examination-in-chief what were his observations based on his meetings with Milosevic, Kirudja said he was surprised how well informed of the political details Milosevic was, never in need of any assistants as other politicians do. This may sound even as a praise, but when Groome jumped to it, asking suggestively whether Kirudja warned of that 'danger' in his reports, he said he 'would like to be precise' (his favourite formula), that he didn't use the word 'danger' but yes, he did note that. The man is a Nigerian and a Muslim, unable to detach himself from his religion and to even pretend to be unbiased. He took sides from the day one, going to such lengths to even hire a Muslim interpreter in Belgrade (to his admitted surprise, such persons were living undisturbed in this city, even Muslim refugees from B&H!). He wildly exaggerated in his reports whenever the supposed victims were Muslims: he used the expression 'concentration camps' because somebody told him so and when his superior, the Indian General Sadish Nambiar, warned him to be careful what he's writing, consented to 'detention centres'; but he was happy to state that later on 'photographs came up' with 'skeletal man' which 'proved' he was right. See how all this is neatly connected: some obscure overzealous official puts the word in his report, never bothering to visit the alleged atrocity and verify, then some photos are taken of one skinny and ten paunchy men in front of chicken wire fenced area and there you have it - a proof! (Btw: the skinny one took off some serious weight for only 10 days of his detention; the others didn't.)
Kirudja wasn't just hypersensitive to the sufferings of his fellow Muslims, he also took trouble to smear their opponents, the Serbs. Almost everyone of them he met during his missions was painted black, and if that was not possible, the witness would praise his qualities and ascribe to him evil intentions. All that was skilfully hidden throughout the testimony by the flowery manner of speaking of Mr Kirudja, a true specimen of a UN official: able to talk incessantly and say little if anything (see Kofi Annan as the case in point). But, while Kirudja threw such mud on all the Serbs, little could he imagine that one of them would come up much later as the important witness for the Prosecution: Slobodan Lazarevic, self-proclaimed YU spy, more probably a British spy. In his written statement before the ICTY investigators few years ago Kirudja portrayed Lazarevic as a poor human material, always out to obtain something for himself personally, and he was 'under the impression way back then that he would make a good mercenary'. When Milosevic quoted that to Kirudja, May tried to protect the credibility of that 'important' witness by saying it's for them to decide about that 'member of the KOS'. Milosevic didn't let May to get away with that: "Mr May, you have stated here that Lazarevic was a member of the KOS. This is just something that he himself claimed to be. One later witness, a Muslim, testified there was no KOS at that time anymore." May mumbled this would be dealt with later. Milosevic proceeded to pound Kirudja with that, stating Lazarevic was probably lying both the UN and the local Serbs, being actually on the side of some third party and made him admit that Lazarevic was a material to make a good mercenary, 'that's what I said, not that he was one', the slippery Kirudja wiggled. When Milosevic asked whether it could be concluded Lazarevic was a man of low moral qualities and not to be trusted, Kirudja slipped by saying that indeed he gave his statement much earlier and Lazarevic testified here in September but yes, Lazarevic led them onto the false trails within the sector, the UN interpreters told Kirudja that the man interpreted wrongly, he wanted once to arrest one of the UN interpreters and he was a material to make a mercenary. May got extremely nervous, saying 'we can not go on about this any further' and Milosevic remarked icily that 'there is not a single individual to whom so much space was devoted ' in Kirudja's statement, but 'very well, we shall not deal anymore with that witness of yours'.
The stronghold of Kirudja's testimony was to be the statement that the Serbs in Krajina deceived the UN and circumvented the Vance Plan by actually keeping their forces under the guise of police. The problem with that is Kiruja's own explanation of the UNPROFOR's task there: according to him, they were there only to 'observe' how the local police is keeping order. If so, then why were they called the 'UN Protection Forces' and the areas in question the UNPAs = UN Protected Areas? Kirudja was forced to admit the Serbs did observe the Plan by placing all the heavy weaponry under the 'double key', and have taken them back only after they were attacked by the Croats. And here his dangerous, despicable bias surfaced again: yes, the Croats did attack the protected areas, but 'they have explained to us' for instance about the Maslenica Bridge attack, that it was 'previously taken by the Serbs'. So, according to sugary Kirudja, all's well with such a vague explanation why the defined UNPA zones could be freely attacked by the Croats and it's not OK for the Serbs to feel threatened and unprotected and to defend themselves after being attacked. He actually had the nerve to say that Maslenica was far to the south, so maybe the Serbs shouldn't have taken over their weaponry from other spots, far away. This is typical of a bureaucrat: to question the obvious by nitpicking about technicalities. What should they have done, according to the red-tape Kirudja? Take over their weapons only if these had been placed at the bottom of the first pier of Maslenica Bridge? Or rather not to take over their weapons at all, in order to stick to the Plan? Those clerks just love paperwork and despise messy life and unruly living men who meddle into their cleverly designed schemes. And Kirudja had the nerve to say that the Serbs should have turned to the UN for help, not to try to defend themselves. Fishy Kirudja conveniently forgot what he had said earlier: that the UN was unable to protect, that they only observed. So they did: they observed (with the honourable exception of Canadians at Medak) as the Serbs were being killed and expelled.
When he moved on to the events in B&H, Kirudja really lost all sense of proportion. Every hint of trouble befalling the Muslims was immediately, i.e. without any verification, depicted in his reports as the concern that the 'unspeakable atrocities may be unfolding'. On the contrary, when the trouble hit the other side, the other yard and stick were applied. The things that the representatives of the UNPROFOR saw with their own eyes and informed Kirudja of it (like the massacre of the soldiers during the JNA's organized displacement by the Izetbegovic's forces in Sarajevo on 3 May 1992), were shrugged off as something that they were 'unable to do anything about'. Well, how about putting it in the official report? Or calling it an atrocity and trumpet it through the world press? The attack of the Croatian regular forces on the Serb village of Sjekovac, the very first armed incident in B&H and the one ending in a real atrocity (all the villagers killed) was dismissed with 'there were so many reports, I was unable to hear just about everything'. Or else, as the talkative Kirudja would put it 'life is like that; you can not see everything.' I already mentioned his disagreement with his superior, General Nambiar, about the 'concentration camps' wording of his reports. When Milosevic played a video showing the General stating he got no reports of genocide whatsoever, Kirudja again tried to find a loop: maybe the General was technically correct, but not factually, because Kirudja and his crew were civilians and the General was talking about his forces reporting him! The nitpicking clerk at it again, but the fact is that the General Nambiar was a supreme commander of all the UN forces in all of the ex-YU at that time, including those in Serbia and in Macedonia, and including civilian officials such as Kirudja. Judging by the rush to report of concentration camps, I don't doubt for a sec that Kirudja also tried to report of genocide, but the General overruled him. Kirudja also described at length about the attempts by two Serbian Town Mayors, one from B&H and the other from CRO, to organize the safe passage for Muslims who wanted to go to Austria or Slovenia - this was, naturally, reported as ethnic cleansing. With all due respect to the witness, what has anything that he said got to do with Milosevic, except that they met few times and Milosevic was kind enough to explain to Kirudja, as he himself testified, the Constitution declaring Serbia to be 'the State of its citizens' as opposed to the Croatian example, the CRO being 'the State of the Croats'?
CIJ pronounced Kirudja an unrecognized hero of YU wars, as opposed to its villains and to Kirudja's cold-hearted superiors. But, closer to the truth would be his own remark about the comments he got from his fellow UN officials when he told them he was to testify at the ICTY: better not to meddle anymore in this thing. So true. Should have been applied a decade ago for the whole ex-YU and for all the meddling we suffered.
Vera Martinovic
Belgrade
Yugoslavia - Thursday February 06, 2003 at 12:04 am
Mr. Delon and Mrs Rita,Tito ran the most succesful nation in eastern Europe for decades. The winter games are not awarded to deadbeat nations.
Only the intervention by the CIA in giving arms to radical elements broke the peace. Serbs and Croats did not like each other but untill the US decided a total breakup of easten Europe was in their interest Greece relied on Yugslavia as its best market.
In Belgrade, Pristina, Sarajavo, people watched CNN and cringed that they were regarded as uninformed, when most speak atleast two languages and censorship is in the western media, not in the rest of the world.
Pertti Lindroos
Quesnel
BC Canada- Thursday February 06, 2003 at 12:17 am
Ana, Rita is not coming from a nation that celebrates crimes of Hiroshima, Vietnam and Cambodia. She is coming from a nation that celebrates crime of 'Panda'.
Robert, Dr
London
UK- Thursday February 06, 2003 at 12:47 am
To everobody here,I do not believe that Rita is a reporter, I suspect that she is a fraud.
I have access to the Lexis-Nexis database and the name Rita Usno never appears in it.
More over, I conducted a google search for the name Rita Usno and again came up with zilch.
Maybe Rita would like to produce some of her work so that we can see proof that she is really a reporter.
I also suspect that this Francois Delon is the same person as Rita. Rita has already demonstrated herself to be a biggot, and I think that Mr. Delon was just an invention that she came-up with to try and save her non-exsistant credibility.
I would like to invite the moderator to check the IP addresses of both Rita and Mr. Delon. I bet he will find that they are a match or that one or both of them are using proxy servers.
In the mean time, until Rita proves that she is really a journalist, you should just dismiss her biggoted rantings as the delusions of an illiterate half-wit from New York.
Don't waste your time responding to her. She is only after attention.
Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States- Thursday February 06, 2003 at 12:49 am
Djindjic is asking for help from Putin, Blair and Bush. He says Kosovo is in crisis. There is a Resoultion in Congress for Independence of Kosovo. Isn‘t that ironic. Kosovo in crisis and Lantos thinks they need independence.Rita Rita should be ignored she has not the courage to use her name, and therefore, she does not have any credibility. She only has courage when she is hiding behind a mask.
Keep this forum in the higher caliber. Do not participate in mud slinging with people like Rita, Rita.
We have intelligent people such as Vera, Jari, Pera, Peter, and on and on. We do not want those who try to lower the standard messing up this excellent forum.
Kathryn Love
SJC
USA- Thursday February 06, 2003 at 12:58 am
There is a woman who posts on the SUC forum. She uses different names and has been doing this during the bombing of Kosovo up until present. She has one purpose and that is to provoke. I feel she is unballanced. She live in Ohio. I believe she is Rita, Rita.Any future posters who have strange names, pseudonyms, and wants to provoke is probably her.
Not worthy of responding to her.
Kathryn Love
SJC
USA- Thursday February 06, 2003 at 4:10 am
A Chinese embassy near you might provide some information on the legal clean-up after the embassy bombing. I doubt anyone has ever read anything in the press about what happened, which doesn't mean nothing happened. It would be very strange if no legal steps were taken.For instance, such a bombing would be a perfect setting for diplomatic protection by the Chinese government on behalf of the bombing victims. If the matter was settled out of court between the Chinese the US governments, there wouldn't be much papertrail and thus not much material that one could use in the future Yugoslav lawsuits. But if a deal was, for instance, made not to indict the Nato leadership, such an agreement would be immoral and thus null and void.
On the other hand, if some court or even some administrative organ made a ruling in the case, the American system would make it possible for the Yugoslav bombing victims to sue the Americans too. The American legal system is based on the maxim stare decisis, which means that earlier decisions must be followed in similar cases later.
This would indeed be the most appropriate way of dealing with the problem. That would be far better than the defunct Yugoslav lawsuit in the ICJ. The ICJ case of Legality of Use of Force has so far been ruled inadmissible, even in its early stages. And the problem with the "merits" is that the US never recognized the jurisdiction of the ICJ in this case.
But the main obstacle is the one that the US intentionally created. Damages won't be repaired until the bombing is shown to be unlawful, and that won't happen as long as it is the victims that are punished as criminals. That is why the individual criminal responsibility has to be established on the Nato side too.
There are some bright spots. Once the "concurrent jurisdiction" is resorted to at the national level, one country doesn't have to indict all the people. China could take Clinton, Zimbabwe Albright, South Africa Blair etc. That would spead the risks more evenly and emphasize the fact that is individual responsibility we are dealing with.
How to get our hands on the suspects? The "concurrent jurisdiction" is the key. This is based on the ICTY Statute. I have been focusing on the effect that this jurisdiction would have on the immunity of the heads of state and ministers. However, the concurrent jurisdiction would also apply to common soldiers, too, who are not protected by the immunity.
On the other hand, in China's case, one could use the old principle aut dedere aut judicare, which means that if the Nato states don't punish the criminals, as they don't do in this case, then the interested state, that of the victims, has the right to request their extradition. In this case, no "concurrent jurisdiction" with the ICTY would even be necessary, except to scrap the immunity of the heads of state and ministers. For the rest, one would only have to follow the "normal procedure".
If that doesn't work, the government can request Interpol to issue an international arrest warrant, which is what happened in the Congo v. Belgium case in the ICJ. If that fails, one could also use the proven method of abduction.
As was pointed out, everybody gets what they deserve. The Belgians too.
Jari Nousiainen
Finland- Thursday February 06, 2003 at 4:26 am
Things are getting realy good here:
Gogol Charlemagne
Conn., USA- Thursday February 06, 2003 at 4:28 am
Aus Jede das Sein
The wind is turning.
Gogol Charlemagne
Conn., USA- Thursday February 06, 2003 at 5:03 am
Some time ago there was a heated argument about the French ICDSM. They have a website too with some interesting links. For the theory about the French culpability in the Srebrenica massacre, you can visit http://liberezmilosevic.free.fr/accueil.htm . The story still hinges on the claims made by Goran Matic, but two interesting names are dropped: Philippe Morillon and the Bosnian police chief Alija Delimustafic, in addition to the more familiar Naser Oric. The massacre theory focuses on the 1,200 killed, which were mentioned in the Erdemovic judgement.I promised the angry conservative comment on Mandela's speech. You may want to read it at http://www.townhall.com/columnists/wfbuckley/wfb20030204.shtml .
J N
Finland- Thursday February 06, 2003 at 5:15 am
Jari,
The Mandela link does not work.
Gogol Cahrlemagne
Conn., USA- Thursday February 06, 2003 at 5:21 am
Sorry, the link works OK on my machine. But if it doesn't, go to http://www.townhall.com/columnists/ . Or just go to www.townhall.com. Click on "William F. Buckley" in the list of contributors. The column is called "Mandela's contribution".No wonder Mr Buckley is upset, when the Daily Mirror calls Mandela "most admired statesman in the world". I guess the Iraqi campaign will not be the same without him.
J N
Finland- Thursday February 06, 2003 at 5:23 am
Right now I don't seem to be able to log on anything else than the ICTY and the Jurist. Is this another attack on the web?
G C
USA- Thursday February 06, 2003 at 5:28 am
The Iraqui campaign is in deep political trouble for the Americans following the reaction of the SC yesterday to Powell's revelations.
The PR circus did not stick and one can argue if these weapons are so hidden what practical value do they have?
G C
USA- Thursday February 06, 2003 at 5:37 am
Vera,
I was surprised to see you ommitted the passage refering to genocide when May (NATO) said genocide was a technical term. General Sadish Nambiar had issued a report and answered questions at a university forum in India, I believe, where he said there was no signs or reports of genocide. Then May (NATO) had to interject and remove the meaning of genocide as if general Nambiar could not in any way gauge such a thing. I suppose the next UN observer team should be only be made of judges!
Gogol Charlemagne
Conn., USA- Thursday February 06, 2003 at 5:42 am
I guess that the US knows that Iraq is hiding some big weapons, because the US was eager to arm Iraq in its war against Iran. If the UN cannot find them, then they are missing. When they cannot be found, there are two explanations: either Saddam is hiding them on the Iraqi territory for whatever reason, or - the alternative that the Americans fear - he has sold them to terrorists. But there is another dimension too. We know that the US armed the Bosnians too, and now it is known that the Bosnians gave the weapons to Iraq. The point is that the US may be correcting its own mistakes, and if so, how can we be certain it won't have to correct this one two years later - for instance by bombing Belgrade again to appease the angry Moslems?
J N
Finland- Thursday February 06, 2003 at 5:50 am
It is not arguement to say: you're a criminal because I made you one. Or, you still have the gun I gave you to commit murder and since you can't give it back to me you're a muderer. To what one can answer: I changed my mind and got rid of the gun by tossing in the Euphrates.
The point is simple, if the US or anyone else by that matter, makes a charge against some one, the burden of proof is on the siode making the charge and if the inspectors have fund little if anythign after a 10 years period it would be advisable to move to another topic: lets remove the sanctions for example, as sujested by some members of the SC yesterday.
G C
USA- Thursday February 06, 2003 at 6:05 am
The ICTY and domovina.net went down as well. Nothing easy here,
Gogol C
USA- Thursday February 06, 2003 at 6:14 am
I have mentioned the Belgrade Forum a couple of times. It was held in Belgrade in February 2000 under the auspices of the SPS, which was holding its 4th Congress. The Forum condemned the Nato aggression on Yugoslavia. For instance, by saying:"Since NATO aggression against the FR of Yugoslavia, nothing in the world and international relations is the same as it has been before. The FRY and its people are victims of the greatest crimes against peace and humanity. That is why they deserve solidarity, support and assistance. But, that plight and many victims have warned the world of far-reaching danger of the policy of US hegemonism, unmasked the face of those promoting' democracy and human rights and acting in line with doctrines of limited sovereignty and humanitarian interventions."
The concluding document - or whatever it is called - can be viewed at http://www.inaffairs.org.yu/89-90/html/en/reforms/ref-main_en.html . The Belgrade Forum also has a website on its own, but it wasn't working a minute ago.
These are not necessarily parties one would normally have dealings with (just let me say this), but the point is that some of the participants are the ruling parties in their own countries. These are mentioned at http://www.urbs.org/corint/ed.%20ingles/spot%203.htm .
Asia was represented by the rulings communist parties of Vietnam, Laos, China and North Korea. Africa was represented by the ruling the following ruling parties. Frelimo of Mozambique, ZANU-PF of Zimbabwe, ANC of South Africa and SWAPO of Namibia.
And indeed, the Ba'ath parties of Jordan, Syria and Iraq were there, as well as the PLO. Now, that explains why Milosevic is associated with Saddam (not that Milosevic seems to mind).
On the other hand, it would also explain why Mandela is willing to stick out his neck on Saddam's behalf. But most of all, it shows that there are countries that would be do something to condemn the Nato war crimes. The political statements are good, but we need your courts.
J N
Finland- Thursday February 06, 2003 at 7:13 am
Ana,I was wondering, re: '...As the Croatian crowd was shouting "ZIDOVI, ZIDOVI" (Jews, Jews)..'
It was my impression that 'jevrei' is 'jew', whereas 'zidov' is something racist like 'yid/kike'? I'm not sure if I misunderstood you or that my got my Serbo-Croatian is too rusty.
The reason I ask is that an acquaintance of mine spent a lot of time in the SFRY from the 1960s onwards and met a lot of the 'intellectuals' and those higher up the chain. I was told that among the Serbs, the jews were always referred to as 'jevrei', but amongst the Croatians they were sometimes called 'zidovi'.
Alexei Gorbulski
Brussels
Soviet Socialist Republic of Belgium! ;)- Thursday February 06, 2003 at 9:27 am
It is the name that Croats use to call Jews, but more than that. It’s a contest in which they used this name. They were naming JNA solders “Zidovi, Zidovi” (Jews, Jews) just like ustasa used to do in WW II.
Ana Dakic
Serbia- Thursday February 06, 2003 at 10:19 am
http://www.balkan-archive.org.yu/politics/chronology/chron90.html
Anna Dakic
Serbia- Thursday February 06, 2003 at 10:28 am
This is how Serbia and Belgrade answered to Hitler http://motlc.wiesenthal.com/exhibits/WoA/serbia2.html And this is how Croatia did it http://www.reformation.org/archive.html But you knew that already, especially those experts from Harvard.
Anna Dakic
Serbia- Thursday February 06, 2003 at 10:31 am
VeraThks for the report....wending its way through cyberspace as we speak...check it out at
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/837226/posts
AP V
NY
NY- Thursday February 06, 2003 at 10:48 am
To: Gogol, VeraLINK TO GENERAL NAMBIAR'S INTERVIEW & ASSERTION OF "NO GENOCIDE"
www.diaspora-net.org/food4thought/nambiar.htmNambiar is one of the bona fide most authoritative sources on Bosnia. I hope he will called by the defense and testify. His testimony is bound to be more influential that that of hypocrits like Kirudja.
Pythagoras Crotoniatis
Greece- Thursday February 06, 2003 at 12:58 pm
There were three points in Nambiar's report that I would like to highlight. First, he says that the Dayton Agreement was fundamentally the same as the Lisbon Agreement that the US torpedoed. The reason was that in the interlude the Serbs had to be made answerable for everything that went wrong. Second, he explains that the killing of policemen is a standard procedure, because they elicit the most vehement retaliations, which make the headlines. Third, he is not sure what happened in Kosovo, but he doesn't rule out the possibility that the Serbs had an answer to the American-implemented "Krajina Plan", if Nato started bombing. Finally, he concludes that the UN has been made redundant, like everyone understands. It is a sad comment on the "West" that we need someone from India to tell us the obvious, and even then May is not willing to listen.Not so long ago, we had the opportunity to see spin doctors in action. The first thing that they do is tell you to shut up, because "you were not there and I was". This is very clever, because the overwhelming majority of the world haven't been in the Balkans. Most don't even know where it is, many don't even care.
In fact, this trick was so cleverly used that I have been in the Balkans many many times. But have I really been in the Balkans, if I didn't see what these people say I should have seen?
Besides, if they have seen what I haven't, they also seem to know more about the things they didn't see, like the mystery surrounding the bombing of the Chinese embassy.
But the main point from the viewpoint of this trial is: if somebody was in a site of a massacre, where was Milosevic? Wouldn't that make the witness more of an accomplice? Are there any impartial eyes?
Besides, being there doesn't prove a thing. The camera crew that made the "photo that fooled the world" were really in Trnopolje. I guess so was the man who said he had witnessed the incineration of Albanian bodies in Trpca. But if such frauds are exposed, what purpose do they serve? That tells you something of the motives that call into the question all of the news.
Jari Nousiainen
Finland- Thursday February 06, 2003 at 1:08 pm
Smoke and MirrorsFollowing Secretary Powell’s audio-visual tour de farce yesterday at the UN conference, the BBC Five Live chat show this morning discussed the consequences of his revelations or ugly rumours - as you prefer.
A guest in the studio was James Rubin.
In response to a caller’s statement that ‘the US had no humanitarian interests in Iraq or anywhere else: only interests’ this is what Rubin had to say:
‘Remember Kozovo (sic) where we prevented millions of people from losing there homes or lives’ and later ‘Where we prevented genocide’.
Time and time again I hear similar justifications notably from Blair and his Ministers, a Canadian radio journalist of US origin and too many others to remember. How do we stop these dreadful people from perpetuating the myths of Kosovo?
When will the world wake up to the humanitarian disaster created in Kosovo. When will people learn that this was wrought through Islamic terror supported by Britain, the USA and Germany; including elements or Mujahedin and al-Qaeda.
Now that Anglo/US aggression is about to avail itself of another 10% of the earth’s total oil reserves in Iraq the alliance may or may not have lost interest the AMBO pipeline. But this does not alter the fact that it once did have this ambition.
A comment on Powell’s declaration of war: Why, if it is true, did he not give this ‘damning’ information to the weapons inspectors?
A comment on two of Blair’s many ugly rumours: A terrorist had his leg amputated in a Baghdad hospital: that is evidence that Soddem (Powell’s pronunciation) Hussein is in league with al-Qaeda? There is an al-Qaeda terror camp in Kurdish North East Iraq under the Anglo/US protected no-fly zone: this is evidence of Hussein’s link with al-Qaeda? A British secret service report claims that Iraq has no link with al-Qaeda.
At least 1,200 British nationals trained and/or fought with al-Qaeda in Afghanistan and many have returned to this country. Many more have trained in other countries such as The Yemen. What are these hundreds if not thousands of al-Qaeda operatives doing in Britain? Does this have something to do with your use of Islamic terror in Kosovo Mr Humpty Dumpty Blair?
Blair trains KLA/Mujahedin/al-Qaeda terrorists
Peter Taylor
Herts/UK- Thursday February 06, 2003 at 1:26 pm
Justice at last?Blair to face war crimes trial if …
Peter Taylor
Herts/UK- Thursday February 06, 2003 at 2:18 pm
Balkan experts say the presence of al-Qaeda militants in Kosovo and Bosnia is well documented:Source http://globalresearch.ca/articles/VIN204A.html
Peter Taylor
Herts/UK- Thursday February 06, 2003 at 2:31 pm
I have thank all of you that helped me write something very interesting in a Journal in NYC(ups, sorry I can not tell you which one) My name is Rita and I have no problem what so ever to present myself. I actually feel that I am preety famous in you page. Thanks for the attention, I know that reality hurts for all of you but at least you'll get used to it. I am in Cyprus at the moment and I am working here now for the moment. I am so sorry "Pythagoras" that all the Greek Cypriots here think that there was an even equal ethnic cleansing by both sides, its just painfull to see the Turks gain more in this case, right? But see, in this world is all about Muslims and Americans I guess. As about YU, its gone with the wind. Bosnia is a sad case still, and I hope it will work better for them. Kosovo is going to get its independence, that is for sure. Serbs should forget about the part of their history when they "won" the Turks in Kosovo. Macedonia, will have to let go, as they have no ethnic background themselves. Serbia hopefully will wake up one day and let go the nationalism and work smart for their better future. Stop singing song on war, and sing songs on love. Like this you all could go back to your homeland and live there, instead of hating the world that you live in every day (USA). If this does not sound right, you have another chance to destroy your country, choose Mira Markovic, as next president(she was Milosevics' voice anyway) Or better choose peace and inner peace, breath in and out three times, or visit "Green Dharma Center" for finding the peace of your mind. I think you all need that. The person from Belgium...I guess he was another "objectivist" I loved he's sincerety.Thanks. I might come back again folks...but next time I hope to see some humanity in this page. Stay well, people of Milosevic!
Rita Weinberg
USA- Thursday February 06, 2003 at 2:52 pm
Dear Rita, I hope that you get reworded (and soon) for your altruism, philanthropism and all other isms. I hope that you get a “Darwin Award” - given to people that did humanity a favor by removing themselves from genetic pool. I really hope I don’t hear from you again because everything you say makes me believe that Slob was telling a truth and I hope for different.
Ann Dakic
Serbia- Thursday February 06, 2003 at 4:06 pm
Humpty Dumpty Blair at his very best:Here is the title of his dossier praised and referred to yesterday by Secretary Powell making a case for war against Iraq:
"Iraq - its infrastructure of concealment, deception and intimidation"
According to Channel 4 (UK) reporter Julian Rush:
“The government's carefully co-ordinated propaganda offensive took an embarrassing hit tonight after Downing Street was accused of plagiarism.
Thus Blair’s accusations of Soddem’s concealment and deception turns out to be stolen work - some of it from a student a student: Fraud and theft.
Can the British people believe anything this man says? Blair is asking us to support a war in which hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraq’s may die - and the evidence he supplies is a product of fraud and theft!
Note that this news story is not available on ‘Dictator’ Blair’s own controlled media - the BBC. When will we learn from the BBC of Blair’s connection with al-Qaeda in Kosovo?
SeeDowning Street plagiarises dossier
Peter Taylor
Herts/UK- Thursday February 06, 2003 at 6:23 pm
HeY RitA! It's very nice that you are not ashamed to "present" YOURSELF. - It's also nice of you to thank the folks on the board for the help on your " something very interesting in a Journal in NYC(ups, sorry I can not tell you which one)".... - Let me guess - YOU WRIGHT STRICTLY FOR MONEY AND yOU ARE ASHAMED OF IT....... - OR YOU are in a magazine distribution bussiness and you hope that with YOUR KNOCKDOWN BEUTY AND UNPARALEL WIT YOU HAVE INTRIGUED US ENOUGH THAT AT LEAST HALF OF THE (10.000) BROWSERS AND CONTRIBUTORS ON THIS BOARD WILL RUN AND GET EVRY FRIC--=N' MAGAZINE IN NYC.......- but you are right about one thing RITA- you'll stay as preety famous on this board..... 'cose you are preety stupid....
vytas abrutis
phila,PA
USA- Thursday February 06, 2003 at 6:29 pm
‘A threat and a danger we have to confront - al-Qaeda’Tonight the BBC hosted a meeting between Prime Minister Blair and a group of people in the northern city, Newcastle, to whom he was to explain his advance to war on Iraq.
In summary he claimed his reason for war was to protect the British people from a terror attack by international terrorists - al Qaeda: that Saddam Hussein was a potential supplier of weapons of mass destruction, chemical, biological and nuclear to international terror - al Qaeda - and therefore must be disarmed.
When asked by a Muslim participant expressed fears of the effect war would have upon relations between British Muslims and the general population he replied thus:
‘In Kosovo we went to war against Christians on behalf of Muslims’
This condescension contains a total contradiction of his case. In the Kosovo campaign the British SAS trained and supported Muslim terrorists who included in their ranks Mujahedin and al Qaeda. The recent BBC programme ‘The Fall of Milosevic’ showed such units marching and training with regular units of the KLA.
If the Anglo-Americans are at "war" with bin Laden's terrorism, why are bin Laden operatives active in Kosovo in an area totally controlled by NATO? Furthermore, in the U.S. zone in Kosovo? Investigations on the bin Laden connection into the Balkans and Kosovo could, according to experts, lead to even more explosive truths in a very short period of time. Source
Peter Taylor
Herts/UK- Thursday February 06, 2003 at 6:30 pm
Peter TaylorIt is a pity the the UK Government can't write it own reports in full, but plagiarism?
The first line of this report reads "This report draws upon a number of sources" Do we know that Ibrahim al-Marashi did not give permission to use his work?
Then I got to think, who is this Ranwala? A quick Google search returned 0, but offered an altenate spelling, Rangwala, well well most interesting reading..smells like a smear tactic's to me, but if it stops the war I guess its ok.
Simon Joseph
Amman Valley
UK- Thursday February 06, 2003 at 6:31 pm
HTML Correction
Hopefully- Thursday February 06, 2003 at 6:42 pm
Yes Simon according to other reports I have read Ibrahim al-Marashi was surprised to find his work used in this way - although he appears not to be making any complaints. Still its nice to be asked.There is also the little matter of julian Rush leaving himself open to a libel case if his accusation of plagiarism is not true.
Peter Taylor
Herts/UK- Thursday February 06, 2003 at 7:10 pm
Rita, when making up stories, do try to be as original as the writers of Hague operetta but try to make your lies as seemingly convincing as possible. Glancing at your English syntax I would say that the only writing you might have been involved in concerned bathroom walls.
Igor Jaramaz
Canada- Thursday February 06, 2003 at 8:12 pm
Rita,who are you to say that Macedonians "have no ethnic background?" Who are you to say? I'd really like to know. Your English is not terribly good either,Rita,is it? Rita,perhaps you could "enlighten" us with the term "humanity"? What do you mean when you say "you hope to see some humanity on this page?"
Jonathan Wells
Bangor
UK- Thursday February 06, 2003 at 8:56 pm
Ana Dakic, Trying to read through all these messages for the first time today, I found myself respecting your obviously truthful and sincere comments in particular. As for Rita, I have just one thing to say: If the Serbs were responsible for ethnic cleansing, how do you explain, as Ana alluded, that of all the states of the former Yugoslavia, only, ONLY, Serbia has a mixed ethnicity of 20 - 30 different ethnic groups (including Albanians), living together peacefully? You certainly cannot say that about Bosnia-Hercegovina, or Croatia, and absolutely not about Kosovo/KosMet (which was just a region of Serbia, taken away by outright THEFT.) Even good old Slovenia doesn't have an ethnic mix that approaches that of Serbia, but I don't hold Slovenia in the same category as the others. Who are the ethnic cleansers, Rita? Hmmmmmm?
Anna Pullinger (\"Ankica\" to you, Andy)
Walnut Creek
CA- Thursday February 06, 2003 at 10:01 pm
I can just smell the scent of sarcasm from Rita's comments. The other contributors to this forum have alluded to your syntax and poor English skills, therefore no further comment needs to be made, however I must add that your accusations and points of order need to be substantiated by further proof and/or evidence. The other contributors to this forum have been quite capable at this undertaking and I applaude them, whatever angle they are coming from. There is no doubt that particular members of Serbian society commited horrible crimes and they should be pursued. However your finger continues to point at the Serbs as the instigators of this whole mess that we are currently looking at and your argument is baseless. There is so much evidence out there and at this forum that leads to other sources and points the finger elsewhere. Allow me to add some of my evidence. An article titled "The years of Denouncement" which forms part of a collection of articles in a book titled "The Battle of Kosovo 1389-1989" provides evidence of what life has been like for Serbs, Romas, Jews and Gypsies in the Kosovo region. I will provide some evidence. 15 April 1899 - Balja Zekin of Makres cut down a copse belonging to Djordje Gilanac, totalling 60 trees. May 4 1941 - Gligorije Opacic of Novo Cikatovo testified to attacks against Serbs and executions by firing squads: "Eleven Serbs from the village were shot. The firing squad was made up of Albanians from neighbouring villages, who acted under the orders of Jusuf Gradica, president of the commune of Drenica, and his brother Mehmed Gradica, member of the Kosovo Committee. March 1988 - Izjah Behljuli and his nephew Djezair, from the village of Ljubista near Vitina, cut down 56 poplar and willow trees on the property of Svetozar Stojanovic. June 1988 - Two Albanian minors, sons of Baftir Baftiari, cut down 13 trees in the churchyard of the Holy Archangel Monastery, in the village of Buzovik, near Vitina. 20 June 1986 - Serbs, Romas, Jews and Montenegrins who set off to move collectively out of Kosovo in massive numbers were stopped at the outskirts of Kosovo Polje by a police collumn. This was a move by the current government in order to place a blanket over the rising tensions in the Kosovo region, namely the destruction of property, rapes and murders at the hands of the local Albanians. Two further points for you Rita, The battle of Kosovo, 1389 was not a victory for the Serbs. At the best it was a pyrihic victory, but nevertheless they lost such great numbers at the hands of the turks that they could not hold of any further onslaughts. And the other point is that it was the Serbian community that first raised the idea of a united Slavic state. If they were such nationalists, self absorbed by their love for rakija and telling of stories, Yugoslavia would have never existed. You say now its gone so why bother. I say why not. United we stand, divided we fall. It makes great economical sense to anyone living there that the nation would be much stronger in the global market. Divided, all the states are easy pickings, and this may have been one of the end goals for the U.S. despite evidence of Al-Quaeda presence in the region.
Aleksander Misic
Sydney
Australia- Thursday February 06, 2003 at 10:24 pm
Vera, Could you please give us any info on Gen. Aleksander Vasiljevic who testified this week AND Dragan Vasiljeviæ who will testify next week(any info on his testimony-for or against milosevic)?
Dan B
Canada - Thursday February 06, 2003 at 12:17 am