 MILOSEVIC TRIAL DISCUSSION ARCHIVE |
| JURIST >> LEGAL NEWS - WORLD LAW >> Discussion >> Milosevic Trial Discussion Archive |
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Former Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic is on trial for war crimes in the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia at The Hague. This marks the first time a head of state has been personally prosecuted before an international criminal court.
Is Slobodan Milosevic getting a fair trial?
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- discussion archive
- Saturday February 07, 2004 at 1:15 am
First in solidarity with Macedonian workers:
Workers Struggles: Europe
Teachers hold national strike in Macedonia
On January 26, an estimated 35,000 teachers took strike action in Macedonia. Teachers are demanding an increase in pay and transportation, meals, and holiday allowances.
Strikers attended schools but refused to teach any classes. Wage levels for teachers in Macedonia are barely at subsistence level and have been frozen at about 140 euros for the past 10 years. The Ministry of Education has opposed calls for a 5 percent increase as “unreasonable.”
David from “Oztralia” again fiddlesticks something of a kind: “More likely Goran Mihajlovic hails from the "old Titoist socialists", you know the ones Milosevic got rid of because they sat comfortably in their leather armchairs while the Serbs in Kosovo bled to death under forced migration, murder, maltreatment etc, BEFORE Milosevic showed up.” This prattle only further testifies that, leaving their ignorance aside, Greater Serbia gang is not only pathetic but mentally disordered to the great extent. That's another reason why we need socialism. Because its not all the fault of these poor people. In a prosperous society their grievances could be assisted in more human way, instead of leaving them to Jurist discussion group, where they are not able to cure each other, having exactly the same dark spots in their minds.
Maybe this will be helpful to resolve David’s confusion about “left” and "old Titoist socialists", the later, David has just revealed to us, from the ‘Oztralia’ of his brain, have been got rid of by Milosevic, who himself has originally fallen from Mars! Anyway, it is all more less the same petty-bourgeois gang that now constitutes both government and opposition parties in Yu:
German Socialist Equality Party to stand in European elections
Statement of the Socialist Equality Party (Germany)
7 February 2004At the heart of the programme of the PSG is the international unity of the working class. It decisively rejects the European Union, its institutions and planned constitution, as well as EU plans for expansion into Eastern Europe. At the same time we reject all forms of nationalism and chauvinism. Insistence on national sovereignty and sealing off Eastern Europe and Turkey do not offer an alternative to the course of the EU, but merely supplement it. Such policies split peoples along national, ethnic and religious lines and assist in their suppression. Against the Europe of the banks and big companies the PSG proposes a united socialist Europe.
Washington’s effort to violently subordinate the entire world to its dominance threatens not only the countries of the so-called Third World, it once again raises the danger of armed conflict between the major powers. On February 15 last year, millions around the world took part in the biggest antiwar mobilisation in history, protesting the war in Iraq, which they regarded-quite correctly-as a direct threat to themselves.
Europe’s governments, however, are incapable of confronting American imperialism. While a number of European governments-Britain, Italy, Spain and Poland-gave their unconditional support to Washington, the initial opposition to the war from Paris and Berlin was by no means serious. Neither government, for example, contemplated closing American bases on their territory-a measure that would have created serious obstacles to the preparation of the war. Since then, both countries have expressed their full support for the occupation of this oppressed country. This was spelled out explicitly in the recent formulation by French Defence Minister Michèle Alliot-Marie: “Nobody can have an interest in a US failure in Iraq. That would be a defeat for us all, for the entire world.”
Social Democracy has always justified its defence of capitalism with the argument that the system could be organised in a socially responsible fashion and reformed to conform to the interests of workers. Today nothing remains of such conceptions. The German SPD and other Social Democratic parties throughout Europe have been thoroughly discredited. They are leading the assault on social gains and democratic rights, and are indistinguishable from their conservative opponents. The Labour Party of Tony Blair has taken over the programme of arch-conservative Margaret Thatcher; Gerhard Schröder’s “Agenda 2010” dwarfs the attacks carried out on the welfare state by his conservative predecessor Helmut Kohl.
The same applies to the Stalinist Communist Parties of Italy and France. In Germany, all talk of socialism by the Party for Democratic Socialism (PDS) is thrown to the winds as soon as it takes over political responsibility. In Berlin the SPD-PDS coalition has assumed the leading role in Germany in attacks on social rights and the jobs and wages of public service workers.
The aim of the PSG is not to put pressure on these parties in order to “reform” them or win over “progressive” layers. Such a perspective is both impossible and reactionary. It would serve merely to provide a left cover for such organisations. The PSG aims to free workers from the influence of these parties and develop an independent political movement on the basis of an international socialist programme.
Goran Mihajlovic
Yugoslavia - Saturday February 07, 2004 at 3:37 am
I think "the dead end" Mihajlovic refered to earlier is reached by himself and his bad behaviour on this forum, Goran you should, like somebody said "rent a flat" in pristina, why not with a similar caracter like Arben, dont bend over for the soap...
Mrya Antonov
Rossija - Saturday February 07, 2004 at 6:49 am
Mrya, you have finally started to talk sense. I am actually about to leave this forum, having more important things to do. After all, nobody likes to stay too long in a place as inanimate as graveyard, unless one suffers from necrophilia.
By the way, I see you are an expert in getting the soap over a mate in a small space. Why not practice it with a similar character like Pera, he just needs the soap, he is fussing for soap for already several days (he has got a small problem, you know, which is a kind of public secret), so you would match just fine in a bathtub together. You two could even simulate the landing on Mars in a picturesque scenery of your bathtub with light turned off. That would be a Pan-Slavic victory in outer space, and the greatest achievement of petty-bourgeoisie since Bouvard and Pecuchet. Adios!
Goran Mihajlovic
Yugoslavia - Saturday February 07, 2004 at 7:26 am
Goran MihajlovicPlease teach us using yourself as an example how to further workers fight by going to Pristina, Kosovo and enlighten workers of the oppressive UNIMK regime an oppressive drug smuggling government. I would live to see workers of the Pristina woken up to shake chains capitalists put them in, especially if you are the one that woke them up. I would love to see them disregarding nationality, embracing fellow worker and you leading them. Please, don’t waste your time with these people here that do not see a bigger picture and prove them wrong by going to Pristina and show them how workers of the world really behave. I await your report!
A. Turcotte
Ottawa, Canada - Saturday February 07, 2004 at 8:00 am
A game between bandits and gangsters.
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La - Saturday February 07, 2004 at 8:12 am
So, Mr. Milosevic capitulated on 10 June, the article says, after Russia (the last political act of the drunkard Yeltzin) withdrew his political support and the general threaten Yugoslavia with "escalation" of the air war: the destruction of Belgrade as Hitler did, obviously the inspiring model of NATO, in April 1941.
As usual, the rumors at the time were well founded, just hang on and see it all.
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La - Saturday February 07, 2004 at 8:28 am
GogolWhat specific war aim did the Yugoslav government capitulate on ?
The Humanitarian Warriors capitulated on virtually each and evry on of their war aims, but I fail to see what the Yugoslavs gave up on.
The Yugoslav position on Kosovo and Metohija before the bombing began was:
1) Kosovo & Metohija intergral part of Yugoslavia forever(sucessfully achieved via UNSCR 1244)
2) No foreign military access except for KosMet (sucessfully achieved via MTA)
3) Convicted KLA criminals serve out their sentences under provisions of Yugoslav law (sucessfully achieved via MTA
4)International Military to take responsibility for K&M under direction of UN (sucessfully achieved via UNSCR 1244 & MTA)
The notion that the Russians somehow sold out the Yugoslavs is merely a red herring created by the Hum Warriors who wish to hide their failure.
AP V
NY
NY - Saturday February 07, 2004 at 8:34 am
Yeltsin that years Christmas appointed Putin and quietly resigned. The turning point had been reached. Chernamierden delivered the NATO and Russian conditions to Belgrade. At least this time Belgrade still is standing obviously to Clark's regrets.
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La - Saturday February 07, 2004 at 9:36 am
Mr Goran: I was wondering to myself how one person (you) could have so fully mastered the fine are of thinking, until it occurred to me - everyone's gotta have a hobby. Congratulations.
josef crow
new york
ny - Saturday February 07, 2004 at 9:40 am
Mr Goran: I was wondering to myself how one person (you) could have so fully mastered the fine ART of thinking, until it occurred to me - everyone's gotta have a hobby. Congratulations.
correction josef crow
new york
ny - Saturday February 07, 2004 at 11:57 am
Ian, whether the Cri voted as they did in the parallel referendum was because of a preference for dealing with a "known quantity" as opposed to an "unknown quantity" with respect to treaty matters, because of English being the European language of preference among the Cri, the distribution of the Cri nation in other Canadian provinces or whatever, or a combination of reasons, doesn't change the fact that Québec's Cri leadership decided that their more positive experience in dealing with the PQ, and in particular the Paix des braves, compelled them to endorse Landry and the PQ, though it was pointed out (and I didn't mean to suggest otherwise) that the Cri leadership does not support sovereignty for Québec per se. I believe (as do you, I gather) that the European-descended societies of the "New World" have much to answer for in the treatment of aboriginal peoples, but that English Canada's selective indignation over native rights in Québec is cynical, hypocritical and self-serving. Why was it that we heard so much about Grande Baleine while similarly nefarious projects in Manitoba and Ontario, affecting Cri lands, were unknown to the English Canadian public? Or the fact that it was the federalist PLQ pushing Grande Baleine, and not the independence movement?The reality is that English Canada's experience in the treatment and according of rights to native peoples offers no superior examples to Québec, *none*, whether we're talking about rates of incarceration or poverty among natives, or self-government, or whatever. I believe the QNA was the first provincial legislature to vote for the the principle of native self-government. The PQ has stated over and over again that a sovereign Québec would be a direct successor to the federal Canadian state over Québec's territory and would thereby assume *all* existing rights and obligations, including treaty rights and obligations with respect to natives. Since a sovereign Québec is yet to come into being, it's unclear to me how such undertakings show any less good faith than Canada has shown on native matters. I expect and respect that aboriginal leaderships will strive for negotiating the best terms of self-government for their peoples but if English Canadians expect a sovereign Québec to adhere to higher standards of self-determination for natives than Canada does, they should just say as much since that will be the same as donning a "I'm a hypocrite" placard and make their motives more transparent.
In 1969 your boy Pierre Trudeau put out a White Paper (emphasis mine, irony his) which sought to end *all special status* for natives, to the great opposition of native communities. You could argue he was acting in the spirit of the BNA Act, which gave the Canadian federal state direct power over aboriginals and diminished the nation to nation principle embodied in Crown treaties. Suppose Trudeau had been successful. Should native nations have seceded from Canada? What if they had, and voted 96% to in some cases, and appealed to Westminster for recognition? Suppose Canada chose to wipe the constitutional slate clean and become a republic. Should native nations secede, invoking the importance of treaties with the Crown? I agree with you that Ireland- and Yugoslavia-type bloodlettings are very much to be avoided but English Canadians who engage in these types of double-standards seem to be using Yugoslavia's experience as a kind of rhetorical bludgeon and in fact the scenaria they suggest they'll support and help to whip up do nothing to allay concerns in that area.
It's funny to me the way you made the partition of Ireland sound like a matter of democratic will. I consider that the majority of Irish people and their political representatives opted for Ireland's independence from Britain and that the partitioning of Ireland was an act of criminal colonialist gerrymandering. A "self-determination of convenience" was invented, invoking the "loyalty" to the Crown of a minority and the former's supposed "obligations" to the latter, which sounds eerily familiar from the Canada-Québec context. I don't believe Ireland's protestants nor the native people of northern Québec were/are facing a spectre such as the one which hung over the Serbs of Slavonia and the Krajina when Ustashism was making it recrudescence and drive for "independence." And I think this argues for treating questions of self-determination with some conditioning principles, like the ones which Lenin talked about.
Jim Yarker
Canada - Saturday February 07, 2004 at 12:14 pm
Mr. Goran Mihailovic,Dealing with some rabid Albanian on this Forum is best to ignore him. Dealing with you is another matter. You are abusive, discourteous and most often incoherent.
You have stated quite clearly ( and repeatedly ) your position and political persuasion. This being a Democratic Forum, we listened ( read) what you have to say. But would it be more civilized to refrain from insulting people you disagree with?
D. Jovanovic, physicist
USA - Saturday February 07, 2004 at 12:28 pm
Drasko, you are a petty bourgeouis blablablablablablablablablablabla...........
P M
USA - Saturday February 07, 2004 at 3:47 pm
• In the Tables that I provided on this forum in order to dispel a MYTH that Serbs dominated Yugoslavia it is correct that some nation groups were not included in the tables. This was done in order to simplify the Tables and since I am just learning html thanks to Peter I did not want to crash the site again. The statistics come from NFRY (National Federal Republic of Yugoslavia) also many of these stats can be found at Statistics, Maps, History This is a great site as it has links to the history of the Balkans going back to the arrival in the Balkans of the Slavs in the seventh century.Goran if I put you in cold water and Arandjel in hot water on the average you both will be comfortable. It was not my intent to make you comfortable since it seems that I succeeded in making you very uncomfortable as your response indicates. The fact that Albanians are not included makes my point even more valid. I chose the ten or so years prior to the fall of Yugoslavia and if I missed some Albanians you are free to provide their names and rebut my findings. You are free Goran to produce your own statistics and please educate us but don’t use sexual innuendos since that makes you no better than the Capitalist society where this is predominant.
The statistics indicate predominance in international affairs and ambassadorial assignments in the hands of nation groups Croat, Slovene, Muslim that broke up Yugoslavia.There is no question from these statistics which nationality gave the ORDERS and which nationality carried the WATER and what better conclusion for this comment than Stipe Mesic Croatia’s national hero saying “I have done my job, Yugoslavia is no more” However if you don’t understand this the medical specialist that you suggested for me has an opening since she also deals with people in denial. I have made an appointment for you.
I had made a decision not to respond to Arandjel but I must since now he insinuates that the influences that guide us or me are not Klingon but Ku Klux Klan. He now has us/me speaking in Klonversations and using the Kloran as our/my Bible. Arandjel also asks Walter Trkla “Does that mean we now have to Serbianize Hungarian minority in Vojvodina?” No. Hungarians and all other groups need to enjoy the protection of the constitution as they did in old Yugoslavia. The fact that Canada is a Multicultural society that makes us richer. Yugoslavia was and Serbia was richer by its protection of Multiculturalism. The fact that some saw this as a weakness and instead of using the similarities of the South Slav People to make the nation work they used the few differences to break it up.
Arandjel also writes that ”Hungary official policy is that Vojvodina is a part of Serbia”. Remember Arandjel the Helsinki Agreement on Borders, UN agreements , international treaties both bilateral and multilateral treaties that Yugoslavia was a party too in the end every treaty was violatedand Yugoslavia was partitioned and you believe the official Hungarian policy on Yugoslavia. Hungary was the main instigator and supplier of weapons to Bosnia, Croatia and Slovenia just prior and during the breakup of Yugoslavia You are at war with yourself. I thought that the 85, 000 that fled Yugoslavia were peace lovers according to your previous post. For me the hate and killing that took place was appalling no matter what side did it, The point here is that Milosevic is on trial for trying to save Yugoslavia. The president did not listen to his Slovenian Generals when they told him to hit Slovenia with full force of the JNA. Milosevic was not in charge of the JNA nor was the President and now all of this is his fault.. You are correct Arandjel that I have learned a very valuable lesson from the tragic events that my family went through in WWII. I know that it was not politics that killed my father, uncles and cousins but tribalism. Most people in WWII Yugoslavia had no ideas what was Communism, Monarchism or Fascism. Clan mentality prevailed, neighbor killed neighbor because of jealousy, and anarchy ruled. Canadian education gave me the opportunity to see this for what it was as well as see our culpabilities in the international arena. Furthermore this nation which is my new home gives me the right to discuss this and any other topic freely. When I tell you not to feel sorry for yourself you interpret that I “don’t care for Serbian peoples suffering today or on protests in 90's”is your own slant and interpretation. I care very much for the suffering of all the South Slavs, but what I find despicable and without honor treachery---the fact that some who rule in Belgrade are bought to march and be traitors and now they want Milosevic to pay the price that is the genetics of the Brankovic’s at work.
Walter Trkla
Kamloops BC
Canada - Saturday February 07, 2004 at 4:08 pm
Gorane, you are preaching high moral values, but you are demonstrating moral values of a child from kindergarten. Case closed. Human beings here handle with care! Good By!
Pera Bora
Ottawa
Canada - Saturday February 07, 2004 at 4:09 pm
Correction
Correction Correction
correction - Saturday February 07, 2004 at 4:45 pm
Mr. MihajlovicYou quote Marx couple of times, however as a good student you are still incoherent.
You should know quite well for Engels too, however from your lecturing I really did not find your observation on nation, nevertheless this shows that you are not a good student at all!
Nation, Internationalism and relations between a nation and a working class should be your next lecture.
Think about differences between globalization and internationalism, it seem to me that you did not grasp that lesson well.- Or I might be wrong. Makiaveli and Rosa Luxemburg would be a good start.
In fact we should go on another forum and discuss that, here is the very real discussion - about justice.
Pero Peric
Canada - Saturday February 07, 2004 at 4:50 pm
Beyond enormous amount of words signed by some Goran M.,there's a mountain of negative energy.The rest is indeed quite an amount but then, only an amount ,necesarry, indeed, to carry the whole mountain. Isn't this place quite an interesting one - when we manage to turn to the things this forum is about ?
milan c.
nl - Saturday February 07, 2004 at 5:49 pm
The NATO expansion continues. Now they want NATO in Iraq too. They're already in Eastern Europe, they're already in Afghanistan. Note how the noose around Russia is drawing tighter and tighter, including US troops in Georgia, the various ????stans north of Iraq and Iran.
Now the US troops in Europe are to be REDEPLOYED into Eastern Europe big time. Anyone smell the coffee yet?
NATO's destruction and bombing of YU was a signal to any of the non-compliant states that they either accept NATO or else!
YU was the first country which didn't want NATO. So what happened? It was the first country that GOT NATO!
Milosevic's "sin"was that he wanted to keep YU independent. That threw a spanner in the works as it interfered with NATO's expansion to Eastern Europe. Therefore Milosevic had to go. And so did Yugoslavia.
The European states and Russia are the ones who are busy with Chamberlain type appeasement strategies. None of them wants to be the odd state out and risk being dropped from NATO or ignored so if the US goes in, the Europeans have to keep their hand in or lose out on the principle "if you're not with us, you're against us".
It is not in the interests of the US to allow the EU and Russia to do business without the US calling the shots. So they have to keep the divide and rule principle in action. Anyone who steps out of line gets the Milosevic treatment! Shevardnadze where are you? You should never have signed the agreement with Putin for a Russian pipeline through Georgia! That's too much competition for the Unocal one. Slobo, you should have let the Unocal line to Tiranha through, then you'd be on the Riviera rather than the Hague.
We can't have Russia's resources leaking to Europe without the Empire controlling the levers, can we! Any holes will be plugged with bombs.
And that's the story of Slobodan Milosevic and the destruction of YU. Apart from the fact that no alternative to globalisation of capitalism is to be allowed lest people get the idea that they can control their own resources and futures.
It will be interesting to see how far Ivanov gets with his call to have Russian monitors at NATO bases in Eastern Europe to ensure they don't pose a threat to Russia.
Stand by for Cold War, Mk II.
David
Oztralia - Saturday February 07, 2004 at 6:33 pm
Jim, I agree that Serbs in the Krajina had much more historical reason to be wary of a Croatian republic than the Cree had to be wary of the Quebec nation. Historically the French treated native peoples better than the English, and quite probably still do. But I do think there are parallels with the Cree's desire to remain in Canada and that of Serbs outside of Serbia to remain in Yugoslavia.I think you have it backwards thinking my sympathy with the Cree is because I didn't want to see Quebec separate, and that there is hypocricy here because I don't have the same concerns for the rights of native populations elsewhere in Canada.
My concern was and is with the consequences of Quebec separating, rather than its right to do so. In that context I've indicated that there would have been a number of flash points likely to draw Canada into precisely the types of internal conflict that arose in Yugoslavia.
What I've always had trouble understanding is how we could seemingly have so little sympathy for the plight of Yugoslavia, given the fact that our own constitutional difficulties parallel theirs, and arose at very similar times. Our hypocricy was in saying that one standard applied if Quebec unilaterally separated from Canada, and a very different standard applied when it was Slovenia or Croatia that did precisely the same thing. We should have done, as we would have been done by, and we didn't.
Ian Davis
Waterloo
Ontario, Canada - Saturday February 07, 2004 at 6:46 pm
David, It may not be Cold War, Mk II. Russia had assurances that its policy of reproachment with the West would be reciprocated, only to discover that glastnost meant that the Cold War would continue, albeit with only one side prosecuting it. One has to ask whether Russia would have sought reproachment with the west, if it could have see then where such reproachment would take it.Go to google and type in Russian Nuclear Exercise. The Russians obviously want the US to be at least as afraid of their capabilities as the Indians are of Pakistans. This bear still has claws, and if sufficient provoked might employ them.
Ian Davis
Waterloo
Ontario, Canada - Saturday February 07, 2004 at 7:02 pm
Mr. D.M.Who are you and how do you know my first name?
Would you care to explain what : "blablabla... means?
D. Jovanovic, physicist
USA - Saturday February 07, 2004 at 7:36 pm
Mr. Ian Davis,There is a rather intelligent commentary by Charley Reese:
http://antiwar.com/reese/?articleid=1926
regarding the Russian exercises. Charley Reese is well read commentator in the southern press particularly in Florida.
D. Jovanovic,physicist
USA - Saturday February 07, 2004 at 8:13 pm
B92 Friday, Feb. 6, 2004 18:20 BELGRADE:(I thought yesterday's story in B92 was a plant, and wanted to see if anyone else saw it that way, however, it didn't draw responses of any sort.)
The Democratic Party of Serbia and the Socialist Party today vehemently denied claims of a list of demands made by the Socialists in exchange for supporting (sic) in the parliament. Belgrade media have reported that the Socialists asked for seats on the board of state-owned companies in return for their support. The Chairman of the Socialist party's Central Committee, Ivica Dacic described the repoorts as nonense.
"We've not taken part in any negotiations on the forming of the government. These discussions did not happen," he said, adding that the party had only said it was prepared to talk.
Democratic Party of Serbia vice-president Dragan Jocic told B92 that "what will happen is a proposal for a minority government and then we'll see who will support it," said Jocic, adding that the Socialists had asked nothing in return.
M Donne
Canada - Saturday February 07, 2004 at 8:59 pm
D. Jovanocic. I read antiwar.com daily, and almost always find intelligent commentary there. I find the issues discussed more intelligently at antiwar.com than at commondreams.org, which makes me suspect I'm a little right of centre. But it's a close call frankly.
Ian Davis
Waterloo
Ontario, Canada - Sunday February 08, 2004 at 3:21 am
The last Russian foreign base to be closed was the naval base Kham rahm in Vietnam where USA presumably will relocate some of its imperial forces. A new one, however, the air forcebase Kant in Kyrgyzstan http://english.pravda.ru/main/18/88/354/10984_kant.html only 50km from an american one, is probably to be seen as the Russian won´t accept some sharped american knife under its belly. Among others the supersonic bomber and nuclearcarrier Tupolev 160 (6-7 new ones will be added to those 12 in service and delivered this year) will be placed here. The two bases in Georgia will reamin for at least 10 years or so. Also, the Russian GPS system "Glonass" will be fully operational this year both for civil and military purpose.interesting facts in deed but the reason for russias increased military budget is as always the american imperial agression for global hegemony.
Mrya Antonov
Rossija - Sunday February 08, 2004 at 6:44 am
J Askamit I have child yes. You should read some about behaviourism and nature nurture debate. What an arrogant condescending ass you are. You assume since someone disagrees with your opinion that they are uninformed. It never even occurs to you that perhaps you've been reading crap. Even biggest Freud follower doesnt say child is even 50 percent experience / 50 born. Most experts agree that a child behaves way it does 80 percent due to experience and 20 percent nature. Crap is crap regardless of who cooks and garnishes it. So yeah its easy to blame child or mysterious nature but fact is that child is product of upbringing. I blame neither and agree that a child must be trained correctly. However I do not believe a society whose whole belief system and that of it's 'experts' is base in the theory of evolution can provide the answers.In fact it places one in the peculiar position of siding with the likes of Hilter and every other murderous thug who was only exercising his ability to be naturally selected. Survival of the fitest at it's finest.
Isn't capitalism itself an economical extension of this premise. Who are we to stand in the way of the evolution of mankind for our own 'petty' sake? Sack it up Goran. How is mankind to continue it's march from ameoba to gods with all this whining from the weaker species? Or perhaps this is your way of jumping up the food chain?
For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into the heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds: I will be like the most High.
Tell me honestly. Isn't that evolution in it's purest form? It was written three thousand years before Darwin (who by the way was alarmed by the religious zeal in which his theories were embraced) was born.
Those who embrace this doctrine would not dare speak of it's inevitable conclusion, but that it is in their heart is of no doubt.
Joel Aksamit
Cleveland Mo
USA - Sunday February 08, 2004 at 7:45 am
Darwin was good for the Bank of England!
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La - Sunday February 08, 2004 at 9:32 am
Jovan thank you for your comment and being shocked by my opinion but not to say which one exactly. I will take it as compliment that you show more in your post that agrees with me than disagrees with me. That makes your views very worrying as well.For example 'Also I have to object to mister Vucelic and other American Serbs. Do your children know a word of Serbian except baba and deda?'. That isnt very nice to the dignity of those people is it? Still who needs a job when you can have a spoon of dignity? Who needs to care for their family when they can puff themselves with pride? Or more precisely who needs those Germanic scum Croats and Slovenes right Jovan? You have a problem with them dont you? Makes you a narrow minded nationalist for me.
Just because you hate something doesnt mean I love them. Mr Trkla made same point about the West to me. Its simplist thinking.
For last time just for you Jovan if Serbia was attacked I and all of its citizens would defend it. I would have defended Jugoslavia same way. I even would even fight to keep Slovenia inside Jugoslavia to stop all the blood that came after. After that I lift my hands of the situation.
To be helpful I must inform you that I dont love or admire Slovenia or Croatia. They are better off than Serbia. That is matter of fact not emotion. If you accuse me of loving or admiring Jugoslavia then I am guilty of charge.
M Donne Why is 'Serb Nationalist' a derogatory term while 'American Patriot' is laudatory??
First nationalist and patriot are two different things. Second who said that American patriot is laudatory? Third Serb Nationalist is not derogatory in Serbia.
Child 'training' like a dog Mr Aksamit? What intellectual comment - crap is crap.
Child Phsychology is not based in the theory of evolution. It is based on years of observation of the behaviour of children to stimuli. So yes I think you are uninformed. Maybe you would not get so upset if you educated yourself in this area. But your last post is really dark. I hope you do not beat your children.
Mr Trkla if you want to continue exchange of ideas with me then please no more threatening not to talk with me. It is quite childish threat and I expect better from man of your age. You did not tell me / us marchers to not feel sorry my myself. You said that it was propoganda then jumped over that to show that you had suffered more. What kind of thinking is that? At least I stand by my words and not try to change their meaning or remember them differently like PB with his invented Vojvodian nationality. Nor do I have a problem to apologise or sulk as people with too much pride have. I admit Mr Trkla that I was rude to you about your suffering in WW2 and Im sorry. Your description of what you call tribalism sounds like horror to me.
Yes Hungary supplied weapons to Croats and Slovenes. Why? For profit Mr Trkla. For the same reason all sides in Bosnia were trading selling weapons to each other at different times during war of 90's. People were victims but those that led the war were criminals in Serbia and outside. Ethnic stories were being told by people like Legija and Arkan but reality was that they were crooks. Ironic that these so called Serb nationalists in fact loved values of Mr Soros and North American cultural values - money.
You and others at Jurist continue to let yourself be pushed into nationalistic explanations for break up of Jugoslavia. The people did not want the country to break up. The crooks at the top like Milosevic and Tudjman did want that.
“Does that mean we now have to Serbianize Hungarian minority in Vojvodina?” No. Hungarians and all other groups need to enjoy the protection of the constitution as they did in old Yugoslavia. - So we agree on this then I dont know why you spoke of this.
The point here is that Milosevic is on trial for trying to save Yugoslavia. - That is total rubbish. Milosevic never lifted finger to save Jugoslavia. He helped destroy it with Tudjman. He never tried to compromise with confederation. Mr Milosevic is on trial because the only way he knew how to win elections in Serbia was by causing crisis. He made decision that re-election was more important than his people. His people will never forget that believe me.
Arandjel P V
Jug - Sunday February 08, 2004 at 10:44 am
I don't hate Croats and Slovenes, I hate what they did to Yugoslavia. I was a Yugoslav, didn't care about nations, they destroyed the dream of equality, they destoyed Yugoslavia, so do I have any other choice but to be a Serb nationalist? What is the alternative? Yugoslavs - a failed idea? If i could choose between what was before and now I would always choose Yugoslavia.
Jovan N
Serbia - Sunday February 08, 2004 at 11:05 am
US warns Serbia over Milosevic's political influence
zee gansterz!
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La - Sunday February 08, 2004 at 11:13 am
ABOUT THE NUREMBERG TRIALS:
‘The trials served both to illuminate and to falsify history. In the hand of the experienced historian, their documentation is a good guide; in the hand of a demagogue it is a dangerous knobkerry.’
Naval judge advocate Captain OTTO KRANZBÜHLER, lecturing at the University of Göttingen in September ????
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La - Sunday February 08, 2004 at 11:15 am
???? well it meant 1949, the JURIST can't read years, now?
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La - Sunday February 08, 2004 at 11:44 am
Don´t mention ze war!!
Mrya Antonov
Rossija - Sunday February 08, 2004 at 11:47 am
I do not know what prompted the discussion:” Nature vs. Nurture”. My comment is that very serious studies were done by observing and testing identical twins reared apart. Professor Plomin of Penn State was one of the investigators.I do not think that any categorical statement was issued. As I understood it, the statistical analysis and careful correlation analysis would slightly favor nature over nurture.
D. Jovanovic, physicist
USA - Sunday February 08, 2004 at 12:10 pm
Anyway, what´s the point arguing with those brainwashed stubborn little rascals harbouring in the dark shadow of Soros? THAT must be one way to the dead end or the graveyard Goran spoked of. The best way to rise kids is to let them have some own experiance, sadly but truth, back to the subject please!
Mrya Antonov
Rossija - Sunday February 08, 2004 at 3:09 pm
Help please!I am trying to read Politika newspaper but I get the text in questionmarks.
What shall I do?
D. Jovanovic
USA - Sunday February 08, 2004 at 3:13 pm
Goran MihajlovicTo call Walter Trkla a "fascist" is to expose yourself as an extremist whose comments are worth nothing. Why are you masquerading here as a Serb, when obviously you are not one? Walter has credibility here as do so many others that you are wasting your time attacking with your outlandish accusations. It's all too tedious.
Anna P
California - Sunday February 08, 2004 at 3:17 pm
For Arandjel
With eyes open wide
We are marching as if blind
To The Hague we send
Our honor to defend
Globalization we love
We want our ‘place in the sun’
To justify NATO’s crimes
We sell our brothers for a dime
Soros, NATO and the NGO’s
We forgive the ever-present foe
Part of Europe we will be
Let’s forget honor and identity
Justice is blind they say
Except in the court of Mr. May
May will do his master’s deed
To absolve NATO’s greed
Those Serbs who cheer loud
Yes, yes NATO’s court, we are proud
With eyes open wide
We are marching as if blind
Walter Trkla
Kamloops
Canada - Sunday February 08, 2004 at 3:21 pm
How Mr. Popovic was beheadedThe ICTY describes a Prison Camp and Death Camp in Bosnia run by Mujahedin where ritual decapitations were carried out. Now why is it I never heard any of this from the Blairs or their compliant BBC and the rest of the British media?
My recollection is of hysterical outbursts by Blair, Cook, Robertson, Short - not forgetting QC Cherie - denouncing death camps and rape camps uniquely run by Serbs: rumours eagerly repeated by the British media and swallowed whole by a gullible British people.
Blair and Bush might find it profitable to attend to their own countries failings before selectively denouncing others. In the past few days nineteen slave labourers died through criminal negligence in the UK and three US naval personnel gang raped two women in Darwin, Australia.
We shall never learn the details of the thousands of atrocities committed in Iraq by the forces of the Coalition of the Willing: As far as Blair is concerned a war which he could not be bothered to inform himself of the proper reasons for his decision to attack.
In the Balkans Blair supports Islamist terror. In Iraq he encourages it.
Some claim that the ICTY is a prototype to stop warmongers like Blair. We recognise this claim to be just as ridiculous as the ICTY itself.
Peter Taylor
Herts/UK - Sunday February 08, 2004 at 3:36 pm
I do not know much about histtoryI do not know much about hitstories
I do not know much about whatever you are talkin about
But I do despise Goran and I feel sorry for Arhangel
ivko rig
- Sunday February 08, 2004 at 5:45 pm
The Big Lie About Kosovo by Richard Poe April 14, 1999 "Save the Albanian Kosovars!" Clinton cries. "Save the Sudeten Germans!" Hitler trumpeted in 1938. The names have changed, but the strategy remains the same. For more than 50 years, we Americans have looked down our noses at the Germans, for having followed Hitler so blindly. But now it's our turn. We are proving no more resistant to propaganda than those cheering crowds in Leni Riefenstahl's Triumph of the Will.Back in the 1930s, Adolf Hitler needed an excuse to seize Czechoslovakia. So he invented one. Three and a quarter million ethnic Germans lived in the Sudetenland, under Czech rule. As William L. Shirer recounts in The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, Hitler secretly funded an extremist group called the Sudeten German Party and ordered it to provoke an uprising against the Czechs.
Kosovo, too, appears to have been destabilized by outside forces. For years, Kosovars protested Milosevic peacefully. But in 1997, a group called the Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA) suddenly started shooting. Who were these people? The Times of London (March 24, 1999) described the KLA as "a Marxist-led force funded by dubious sources, including drug money." European police suspect the KLA of connections to Albanian gangsters. At least two of the group's backers appear to have been the CIA and the German spy agency BND, according to intelligence analyst John Whitley, quoted in the Truth in Media Global Watch Bulletin (April 2, 1999).
The purpose of staging a provocation is to create a backlash. This strategy certainly worked for Hitler in 1938. As unrest spread in the Sudetenland, the Czechs cracked down. Czech President Eduard Benes ordered troops into the region and declared martial law.
Right on cue, the German press went wild. "Women and Children Mowed Down by Armored Cars," ran a typical Berlin newspaper headline in September 1938. "Poison Gas Attack on Aussig" cried another.
Hitler accused Benes of waging a "war of extermination" against Sudeten Germans. "The Germans he now drives out!" cried Hitler, in a September 16, 1938 speech. "We see the appalling figures: on one day 10,000 fugitives, on the next 20,000... and today 214,000. Whole stretches of country were depopulated, villages are burned down, attempts are made to smoke out the Germans with hand-grenades and gas."
Sound familiar? Hitler's rhetoric bears an eerie resemblance to the CNN news blitz on Kosovo. Of course, Hitler was exaggerating. Many of the atrocities he alleged later turned out to be fabrications. But the same is true of our newscasts on Kosovo.
Take the alleged massacre of 45 Albanian civilians at Racak, for instance, reported in January 1999. Forensic and other evidence now suggests that the bodies were those of KLA guerrillas killed in combat. The hoax has been widely discussed in the European press (including Le Monde, Die Welt, Le Figaro and the BBC). But U.S. news outlets have been as silent on the controversy as if they were taking orders from Goebbels himself. In the Sudeten crisis, Hitler claimed to be inspired by internationalist ideals. "Among the fourteen points which President Wilson promised ..." the Fuhrer proclaimed, "was the fundamental principle of the self-determination of all peoples ..." By freeing the Sudeten Germans, Hitler argued, he was fulfilling Wilson's vision.
Clinton too claims he is fighting for human rights. But ethnic cleansing does not bother Clinton when his friends are the ones doing the cleansing. He ordered no bombing when the Croatians drove 300,000 Serbs from Krajina, burning their homes and killing many. Nor did he intervene when our NATO ally Turkey slaughtered over 35,000 Kurds.
Every schoolchild today knows that Hitler's real goal, in seizing Czechoslovakia, was to use it as a stepping stone for his planned invasion of Russia. But what is Clinton's real interest in Kosovo? Nobody knows.
Many theories have been floated. Some point to the Trepca mines of northern Kosovo, rich in gold, zinc, silver and lead. The New York Times called them the "Kosovo war's glittering prize" (July 8, 1998).
Others see a more far-reaching strategy. The Russians claim that NATO, like Hitler, wants to use the Balkans as a stepping stone for extending its power eastward -- eventually meddling in the affairs of Russia itself.
But this is all speculation. Only time will reveal Clinton's true intentions, as it ultimately did Hitler's.
In his memoir Inside the Third Reich, Albert Speer recalled the anxious mood of Berliners, in September 1939, as they digested the news that England and France had declared war.
"The atmosphere was noticeably depressed," he recalls. "The people were full of fear about the future. None of the regiments marched off to war decorated with flowers as they had done at the beginning of the First World War. The streets remained empty. There was no crowd on Wilhelmsplatz shouting for Hitler." A wise man once said that those who fail to study history are condemned to repeat it. Should Clinton actually succeed in sparking a world war, Americans will no doubt react with the same shock and fear as Berliners did in 1939. But we will have only ourselves to blame.
Richard Poe is a freelance journalist and a New York Times-bestselling author. He writes frequently on historical themes. Poe's latest book, "Black Spark, White Fire", explores the Afrocentric controversy concerning ancient Egypt.
http://www.newsmax.com/articles/?a=1999/4/13/114554
Dakic Ana
Serbia - Sunday February 08, 2004 at 9:43 pm
As Adolf said: "Neues Ordnung!"
The NWO sure learned the lesson from Gehlen and co. Here we go again...
Just add PLAGIARISM to all the other crimes!
And the adage: "We didn't know" is not an excuse this time round.
David
Oztralia - Sunday February 08, 2004 at 11:46 pm
Question for Anna P (hocu da verujem da je ovo inicijal a ne skracenica) from California:
Since when is it that a bitch issues the certificate of Serbdom?
Otkada to kurvica izdaje potvrdu Srpstva?
I am afraid that such a certificate would not be too reliable. Serbian puritanic nationalists on this forum would not be satisfied. (S druge strane ni Turci na nasim prostorima nisu stedeli na kurcu za onolike vekove. Mnogi su dali svoj doprinos da srpska nacija bude genetski bogatija Ana. Verujem da ces i ti u Californiji moci nesto po tom pitanju da doprineses, duso, a ne da ostane samo na vlaznim snovima.) On the other hand, Turks did not save their cock either in our land for centuries. Many have contributed to the genetic material of the Serbian nation. I believe you Ana would do something in that respect too in California and not only leave it on wet dreams.
Goran Mihajlovic
Yugoslavia - Monday February 09, 2004 at 12:19 am
Well, Goran, you hardly merit another glance aftr that dribble, but I'll tell you one more thing: A Serb would not call someone who defends Serbia and Serbdom a "fascist." Anybody can reduce himself to your low level of argument -- one example is "Arben," so who are you, really? No, don't bother to answer - I could hardly make myself care. And, if, by some weird turn of events, your name really is Mihajlovic, then you don't wear it very well and Draza must be turning in the grave in which Tito stealthily threw him, like the gangster he was.
Anna P
California - Monday February 09, 2004 at 12:39 am
Goran Mihajlovic continues to “cut off his toes in order to fit into his shoes” must be the carbuncle problem again. True Socialists and Communists worked to emancipate women not to demean them. Anna, Goran is neither a Communist nor a Socialist just a vulgar “gutter snipe” who does not realize that he must change himself before he can change the society.
Walter Trkla
Kamloops BC
Canada - Monday February 09, 2004 at 12:55 am
People, just ignore Mr Mihajlovic please!
Pasha
Oz - Monday February 09, 2004 at 3:31 am
Re: Hitler -- Just to let you know that speaking about Hitler as 'villain', 'evil', and so forth is not cool nowadays. It's use if limited to official propaganda for dummies, see the "Hitler-of-the-month" chapter. It seems that Hitler is cool again simply because the current Dear Leaders in US/UK have embraced, if not perfected his innovative political techniques. This much is acknowledged even in reputed (BBC) educational material for kids - samples below.
"Hitler's political techniques live on, and people remain at least as susceptible to them today as they were in the 1930s."
http://www.bbc.tv/education/walden/hit_indx.shtml
"Hitler was a very modern leader, inventing or developing techniques that are absolutely intrinsic to contemporary politics. His career isn't just a story of the evils of totalitarianism. It raises profoundly important and insufficiently discussed questions about the way democracy works."
http://www.bbc.tv/education/walden/transcripts/hit_transcript1.shtml
John North
Canada - Monday February 09, 2004 at 3:32 am
RE: Marx -- Karl Marx was famous for his tongue lashing. A 'tame' sample is provided below:
"It is now clear to me that he, as proven by the appearance of his head and hair, is descendant from Negroes who joined Moses on the trek out of Egypt (if his mother or grandmother on his father's side didn't cross with a nigger). The combination of Jews and Germans with a bit of Negroid blood is certain to create a really peculiar product. The obtrusiveness of this character is also niggerish." (Letter to Friedrich Engels, Marx-Engels Briefwechsel, volume 3)
Marx was talking about his rival Jewish Communist, Ferdinand Lassalle. Compared to him, the current Marxists are really gentle with their opponents, don't you think so?
RE: Marxism -- some thought that "Karl Marx was a clear and lucid Talmudist ... full of that old Hebrew materialism which ever dreams of a paradise on earth and always rejects the chance of a Garden of Eden after death. (Lazare Bernard, L'Antisémitisme)
John North
Canada - Monday February 09, 2004 at 4:20 am
RE: The Zundel Trial in Canada may shed some light on what the Milosevic Trial has started.
I searched in vain (help, anyone?) for the transcript of this trial here, in Canada, whereby a man named Zundel stands accused apparently (not clear yet, see below) of being a 'national security threat'. According to local media, Zundel is a really bad man, namely a "a Holocaust denier". The media demanded his 'immediate deportation to Germany", although he lived in Canada for most of his live apparently (all media reports are very fuzzy, emphasis being on 'his a bad man').
Having no idea what 'Holocaust denier' might mean, I limited my search to finding the late court transcript. To my surprise, I could not find it in the official places, so I had to search for bits and pieces. By what I found, The Hague is no longer unique. Among other things:
- He is in solitary confinement for more than a year now
- He was denied bail although he has no criminal record
- His Defense attorney, asked the judge to recuse himself for bias (back in July)
- Secret hearings are routine
- The Defense is frustrated by the Prosecutor's seemingly endless delays and petty questioning
QUOTE
Before adjourning until September 23 and thus leaving revisionist publisher Ernst Zundel, now ailing, for another two months in solitary confinement, the matter of Mr. Zundel's prison conditions was again [raised] by the defense. Mr. Christie reported his frustration at being unable to obtain complete documentary evidence of the results of Mr. Zundel's [medical] tests last week. Mr. Christie also pointed out that Ernst Zundel has been denied a chair, a pillow, pen, post-it-notes and highlighters.
An angry Judge Blais said, "If there is any possibility within the parameters of the law, I want to improve his condition. Is there anybody here from the Detention Center?" he demanded. As on Monday, there was no answer from the provincial prison authorities.
"I will make a written direction that Mr. Zundel be treated with more flexibility," Judge Blais said.
"Even in medieval times, prisoners were allowed to use pen and paper," Judge Blais asserted. "I also have respect for Mr. Zundel. He is not a criminal. I think he is entitled to a little bit of flexibility," the Judge said.
It was decided that the Crown would send a letter to the Province of Ontario to seek more humane treatment for Mr. Zundel.
END QUOTE
Unlike with the Hague Court, I could not find even what exactly is Zundel accused for and why is the media calling for his immediate deportation without trial. It seems, that some charges are secret. Some spectators claim that all pertinent questions asked by the Defense were objected with "State secret" and upheld by the Judge.
Mr. Milosevic - your court is coming to our town.
Mr. Hitler - you were way ahead of your time, it seems.
I am trying to find more info on Zundel Trial - it might be most indicative of The Hague 'fairness' - and for what's in store for those living in free, civilized societies these days.
P.S. Recent events in Canada:
- It seems that our 'intelligence services' have helped the US to deport a Canadian resident to be tortured in Syria
- A judge allowed the Police to raid the home of a news reporter who received some info on the above case that could blow the cover-up...
John North
Canada - Monday February 09, 2004 at 6:07 am
Goran Mihailovicwhat no report from Pristina? I am still waiting!
A. Turcotte
Ottawa, Canada - Monday February 09, 2004 at 6:39 am
They had their man in place: The American-born son and grandson of former prime ministers, he comes from one of Greece's greatest political dynasties; his father, Andreas, founded Pasok 30 years ago.As foreign minister, George Papandreou presided over a quiet revolution in Greece's Balkan policies, backing Slobodan Milosevic's democratic opponents, a sea change in relations with Ankara and the sponsorship of UN peace plan that could see Turkish and Greek Cypriots reunited after more than 30 years.
- Monday February 09, 2004 at 7:38 am
I can understand the use of foul language and names calling under certain circumstances or mood , it is not my intention to appoint myself as a fully virtuous person , but when it gets to the point in the way that G M treats Anna P makes me wonder if he is capable of issuing a virtuousity certificate of his own mother? "samo da bi mi dosao ispod ruke djubre jedno".
M P
Panama - Monday February 09, 2004 at 7:41 am
IS SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC GETTING A FAIR TRIAL AT THE HAGUE?To: Mr. Theodor Meron, President, ICTY, The Hague, The Netherlands
Cc:
H.E. Kofi Annan, Secretary General, UN, New York, USA
H.E. George W. Bush, President of the USA, Washington, USA
Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II, Queen of the United Kingdom, London, UK
Mr. Meron,
The ICTY Trial Chamber presided by Mr. Richard May adopted on 5 February 2004 the Order Scheduling Hearings to the Close of the Prosecution Case in the process of President Slobodan Milosevic. By the Order, it was decided that the daily length of all the hearings in the next two weeks shall be prolonged, so that hearings will be held also in afternoon hours.
It is apparent that by ordering the prolongation of the hearings, the Chamber violates its own, earlier decisions and orders determining that the hearings shall be held in morning hours only, adjourning not later than 01:45 p.m. We remind that these earlier orders were adopted after several specialist medical examinations of President Milosevic as a consequence of the clear physicians’ warnings about the serious character of his health condition and about the risks for his health and life produced by the process itself. Moreover, the physicians explicitly recommended that the length of the hearings shall be shortened.
You are certainly aware that during the whole this week President Milosevic was ill from flu and that at the time when the Order was adopted, he has not been recovered yet.
The situation in which, in spite the several medical reports and warnings and in spite the current deterioration of Mr. Milosevic’s health (when it is uncertain whether and when he will be able to participate in the hearings), without consulting the medical specialists and severely violating its own decisions, the Chamber arbitrarily prolongs the length of the hearings, one can characterize no other way but as direct threat to President Milosevic’s life.
Therefore we warn you that as the ICTY President you have a duty to instruct the Chamber to review and abolish this inhumane Order or to reverse it yourself.
On behalf of the Freedom Association Managing Board
Bogoljub Bjelica, President
(relayed as received)
Find instructions at:
http://www.sloboda.org.yu/pomoc.htm
To join or help this struggle, visit:
http://www.sloboda.org.yu/ (Sloboda/Freedom association)
http://www.icdsm.org/ (the international committee to defend Slobodan Milosevic)
http://www.free-slobo.de/ (German section of ICDSM)
http://www.icdsm-us.org/ (US section of ICDSM)
http://www.icdsmireland.org/ (ICDSM Ireland)
http://www.wpc-in.org/ (world peace council)
http://www.geocities.com/b_antinato/ (Balkan antiNATO center)
Godfred Louis-Jensen
Copenhagen
D E N M A R K - Monday February 09, 2004 at 8:21 am
John,You say you were trying to wrap your head around the meaning of term “Holocaust denier.” The revisers of the Holocaust perpetrated against Serbs in NDH, from sociologist Zwann to “historian” Philip Cohen to “left” Australian journalist Michael Karadjis, don’t actually acknowledge that they’re engaging in Holocaust revisionism or denial and the mainstream media who give credence to their views don’t help point it out either, so they probably wouldn’t be much help.
I notice however that Zundl people running his support website (www.zundelsite.org) aren’t shy about setting off the word Holocaust in quotation marks, so perhaps they’d be a good place to start with your inquiries. (‘Get to know the one-man powerhouse Revisionist who has dedicated his life to clearing Germany of the blood libel of the "Holocaust".’ - from the home page; ‘It is okay in Germany to doubt the Holy Ghost - but not the "Holocaust"!’ - from the link “What we’re about, in a nutshell”, illustrated with the aid of some interesting cartoons); ‘Contrary to Holocaust Mythology there was no attempt by Nazis, or anyone else, to exterminate the Jews. There was an attempt, largely successful in the areas controlled by the Axis, to expel the Jews from Europe.’ - from the link “Holocaust Revisionism in a Nutshell”; ‘The common figure of six million is too large by 500% at least’ - ibid.; ‘What is the basis for Revisionists asserting there was no attempted genocide of the Jews? The linch-pin in this argument is simply that there were no gas chambers. None. Zero. Nada. There is NO evidence of gas chambers that an objective person can find credible.’ - ibid.)
So it would appear that help is available out there, definition-wise.
Jim Yarker
Canada - Monday February 09, 2004 at 9:29 am
This is for Walter TrklaOur country past of which we dream was a time that has never been
We fled our history now we repent but instead of to lament.
We demand that others make sacrifice
whilst we live in riches and they suffer.
From the side we whistle, cheer our tribe
And accuse others when they dont take our side.
We let our emotion overpower when we dont understand it
The reason our emotion is strong is leaving our land.
Instead to do something about this we accuse others of loving way of life we have.
We love to have freedom of the West We love to have the money of Capitalism
We love to have the freedom this offers us But we dont want Soros money to leave US.
Let our former land suffer for our romance We are angry with ourselves
D Jovanovic the study you mentioned has similar results to other ones. There is also a lot of evidence (if anyone need it) to show difference between female and male behaviour in early age.
But if you type in google search on Child Phsychology or Nature Nurture you will see that most experts put it at most Nurture 70 / 30 Nature. It was one area of my study. Also public was questioned on nature nurture for study. A lot of people think that it is 50 / 50 but those people never studied subject.
Ivko Rig you do not need to feel sorry. Probably because you understand me in some way stops you from hating me / my opinion. Those who led us for 15 years had their chance. National dignity look where that took us. Serbs have never been in bigger danger to disapear. Its time for rational policies. No more pride. We had too much and we kept losing because of too much heart and not enough brain.
Arandjel Pasic
Jug - Monday February 09, 2004 at 11:24 am
John, the following URL is one that I am using to access information on Canadian court cases. When I used the name Ernst Zundel in my search I got 19 entries.
http://www.canlii.org/index_en.html
Pera Bora
Ottawa
Canada - Monday February 09, 2004 at 12:24 pm
MP,Thanks. But you might like to know that the only thing I find remarkable about GM's postings directed at me is how unimpressed and undamaged I am by such words from such a lout. I don't pay much attention to simpletons and what they say to me. I was just a bit irked that someone could come on here and willy-nilly attack a good person like Walter who has never posted anything except passionate but reasoned arguments and supports Serbia with great constancy. Otherwise, I wouldn't have commented at all on the crap that GM posted.
Anna P
California - Monday February 09, 2004 at 12:36 pm
Pasic you said that you would have fought for Yugoslavia - at the same time you were supporting March uprising (from 1991}. Vuk Draskovic carried NATO flags in March 1991 - Obviously NATO was in favour of break-up of Yugoslavia - These two things did not go together.Then you said "Serbs have never been in bigger danger to disappear"
- You are against nationalism but yet you care that Serbs might disappear.You denied Serbian rights in Yugoslavia for self-determination -otherwise you would not confine it to Serbia proper.
Then you said that you supported confederation - But not redrawing the borders - How come? According to AVNOJ the one of the torches did not represent Serbia - it represented Serbs.
The same apply to Croatia.Such a possibility (Confederation) was examined quite well even before AVNOJ and it was considered as utopia - "since Yugoslavia would break on its seams" - That "seam" was "Brotherhood and Unity". Croats and Slovenes wanted to Secede and they could not secede on the basis of AVNOJ - Since Yugoslavia was constituted by sovereign nations not Republics. - That’s why they replaced "Brotherhood and Unity" with “Togetherness” which would form a base through small door for confederation
Such a concept was implying only changes at federal level, forming separate army, ministry of international affairs etc and not negotiating sovereign domain among others in Yugoslavia.
A state has four main elements: territory, people, borders and sovereign domain - Borders among republics in Yugoslavia were administrative since they did not represent any republican (nation’s) territory as sovereign domain. That concept implied that: Any of the constituent nationalities in any of the republics in Yugoslavia represented a nation not a national minority.
Why was chosen such a concept?
The constituent nations were so scattered in other republics in Yugoslavia that was impossible to satisfy their equal rights for self-determination.Now tell me Mr. Pasic what type of Yugoslavia, or what type of the confederation you were willing to support?
Many of the Serbian people did not want to compromise anything and they (we) found all sorts of excuses and tried to leave crucial problems of ours to somebody else to solve for us. And yet we as a whole nation are accused in Hague that we wanted to fight for a “Grater Serbia”.
We got today the Biggest Slovenia in its history, the Greatest Croatia (Including one from 1941), The Only Macedonia, and Kosovo as protectorate.
You said, “No more pride” and you want a success.
There is no success without self-esteem and pride.A nation, which does not have history - does not have future either. - But we do not need to be nationalists after all.
Pero Peric
Canada - Monday February 09, 2004 at 12:39 pm
.
Correction
Hopefully - Monday February 09, 2004 at 1:08 pm
Arandjel,I do understand you in some ways. Let us check it. Your position, as I understand it, is:
Milosevic is responsible for the damage done to Serbian people during his rule. You do not care about the reasons for this damage. By doing this you put the national interests above individual responsibility which I do not like for very well known reasons. And not only that, you are forgetting that he was elected by Serbian people together with his political programme wich was always public. (Now we know it.) I hope you will agree that enough has been said about that on this forum a lot of which was addressed to you.
ivko rig
- Monday February 09, 2004 at 1:44 pm
‘A list shall be compiled by the United Nations of all major criminals other than those provided for by local jurisdiction.’ of 50 people or so‘the Hitler and Mussolini gangs and the Japanese War Lords' ‘Thereafter, the persons named on the approved list will, by solemn decree of the ?? United Nations, be declared world outlaws.’
‘No penalty will be inflicted on anyone who puts them to death in any circumstances.’ ‘As and when any of these persons falls into the hands of any of the troops or armed forces of the United Nations, the nearest officer of the rank or equivalent rank of Major-General will forthwith convene a Court of Inquiry, not for the purpose of determining the guilt or innocence of the accused but merely to establish the fact of identification. Once identified, the said officer will have the outlaw or outlaws shot to death within six hours and without reference to higher authority.’
WINSTON CHURCHILL, 1943
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La - Monday February 09, 2004 at 1:52 pm
Meanwhile Paul Tibbets, pilot of the Enola Gay, sells his autographs as a celebrity... Protection from justice is one of the spoils of victory, it would appear.
Adrian Justinson
Seattle - Monday February 09, 2004 at 2:50 pm
"You know, if we loose the war, we will be declared war criminals"
General LeMay to Robert S. McNamara during the planning and execution of the fire bombing of Japanese cities.
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La - Monday February 09, 2004 at 3:32 pm
Mr./Ms. PM V,If Serbia achieved all its goals after the war in Kosovo, then why is it that Serbs must live with 24 hour protection by Kfor? Why are the people of Serbia suffering because of the mistakes of Milosevic? Why is unemployment running at 30% in Serbia, but much less in Croatia and Slovenia? How can you consider this a victory for the Serbs. Why are Serbs hated the world over? Try to get a job anywhere in Europe if you say that you are Serb. Why are Albanians living much better than Serbs.
Ivan G
Cleveland
Ohio, US - Monday February 09, 2004 at 3:37 pm
Jim Yarker -- thanks for references. Until recently, I paid no attention to the phenomenon simply because 'revisionism' is the nickname of science. If history is a science, as the schools tell us, then "history revisionism" is a pleonasm - Never heard anybody accusing Einstein of being a "Space-Time Denier". Likewise, being given the importance of the Holocaust "theory", it seemed natural that historians are looking to 'revise' it, especially when confronted with data gaps. This is the nature of science, is it not?
Newton's theory was very well supported by facts and tests - except for a few, very few, out-of-this-world conditions scientists could only 'think' of at the time. Many protested Einstein's view. In turn, the Greatest Revisionist of Modern Times had no problems protesting those engaged in "Mechanics revisionism" - now known as Quantum Physics.
My brief browsing of the WW2 'revisionists' revealed just that kind of vehement criticism that characterizes the scientific discourse. A fierce revisionism exists regarding the Indo-European languages, the date of the Ice Age, etc. Good for history, I would say. Who's standing to loose from revising the history so that facts are better explained?
Sure, I am aware that science has become a political tool - since mid 19th century. It was abused everywhere in many fields, from demolishing metaphysics, to banning smoking and spanking. The Race Act in the UK is supposedly based on 'science', although even modern genetics is far from being able to support such Acts. In doing so, the UK is not different from Nazi Germany - it's the same 'electron', only with opposite spin. Regardless of the spin, it 'shocks' you just the same.
My interest in the late Zundel Trial, however, is limited to legal matters. In my opinion, it is a good parallel to Milosevic's Trial and supports my view that The Hague Court is not and aberration, but the main pointer to the New Court Order, which concerns all people because it is already in place in many countries, including Canada, UK, US, Germany, Australia, France, etc.
Unlike Milosevic, Zundel is cased 'at home', in a legitimate law court, according to the laws and the customs of Canada. Nonetheless, it sounds just like The Hague, if not worse. Indeed, in previous Zundel Trials, it was made clear that, when it comes to hate crimes, "truth is no defense". This view, inspired from the libel law in many countries, is now rapidly expanding way beyond 'civility' cases.
In my posts, I called for discussing whether Milosevic might be conducted fairly before discussing whether is its fair. As I see it, the Milosevic Trial resembles a 'lawsuit for libel'. If true, then truth is no defense and therefore all arguments based on material evidence are irrelevant.
I believe that the best way we could help Milosevic defense is by detecting that nature of the Trial. As I see it, the Hague Prosecution goes libel-like - Milosevic incited the hatred; he knew or should have known that his actions are likely to cause hate crimes of genocidal proportions.
Bringing up fact-based evidence is the wrong approach, in my humble opinion. Likewise, driving the defense assuming that truth is defense may be fatal. I already posted references to Gandhi and Hitler's Beer Putsch Trials to draw attention on this: if you are charged with 'hate crimes', then you have no defense in truth and facts. That's why the two adopted the 'in-your-face' strategy: "Your Honor, you have no choice but find me guilty. For in this court, truth is no defense and no fact can stand in the way of Judgment."
John North
Canada - Monday February 09, 2004 at 3:39 pm
Pera Bora -- thanks for the link; very useful indeed - but I can still not find any official/court document regarding the current Zundel trial, mentioned in the media. The most relevant relates to January, 1998, a trial that has nothing to do with the current one, apparently.
John North
Canada - Monday February 09, 2004 at 3:45 pm
Will the containers of chemicals be rusty enough 3 weeks before election day to prove Irak's program of WMD's ? . Does Tenat thinks he has bull s...ed the whole of the human population ? . Well excuse me , here is one that hasn't bought one single word , Bliar & Bush , alpha & omega of the same lie , same thing happened with Racak only dif. the "parteneire" was Clinton.
M P
Panama - Monday February 09, 2004 at 3:50 pm
Gogol, good quote, but the scientists did not have to worry about being charged with war crimes.
"I think that we should not attempt the plan [to atomic bomb a city] unless we can poison food sufficient to kill half a million men, since there is no doubt that the actual number affected will, because of non-uniform distribution, be much smaller than this." Oppenheimer to Fermi, 1943 May 25
John North
Canada - Monday February 09, 2004 at 3:50 pm
New Page 1 
Walter Trkla
Kamloops
Canada - Monday February 09, 2004 at 4:21 pm
John, I have checked with people in my firm. They say that there is no direct way, using www, to access court records of court cases that are currently going on. When the final ruling is taken, it takes about three months for documents of a court case to be posted on site like one that I have pointed you to.
Pera Bora
Ottawa
Canada - Monday February 09, 2004 at 4:43 pm
Standards unattainable, says Kosovo PM | 22:34 | Tanjug
WASHINGTON -- Saturday - Kosovo Prime Minister Bajram Rexhepi has indirectly admitted that the Standards for Kosovo - a set of democratic standards imposed by the international community as a condition for the review of the ultimate status of Serbia’s southern province are virtually unattainable.
“I can freely say that even some permanent Security Council Members have not achieved these standards, but they were imposed on us from the very outset,” Rexhepi told The Voice of America late yesterday.
Rexhepi admitted that the standards were important for defining the status and joining the European Union and that dialogue with Belgrade was also unavoidable.
However, he said, the key issue of the province’s final status could not be solved in talks with Belgrade.
Pera Bora
Ottawa
Canada - Monday February 09, 2004 at 5:51 pm
Croatia & Dalmatia foreign debt is $22 BillionSlovenian foreign debt is $12 Billion
That fact that Washington refuses to abid by their solemn committments in KosMet under UNSCR 1244 & the MTA does not negate the success of Yugoslavs in achieving their war aims in 1999
As for Serbian unemployment, perhaps one should look at BiH (some 45%) or Croatia & Dalmatia(some 30%+). Croat and Dalmatian unemployment is about as high as Serbia's, despite the fact that C&D has had the benefit of 14 years of the best advice Washington has to offer.
Serbia got bombed and DOS; now its economy is in shambles. Croatia & Dalmatia got $22 billion and Washington's advice; now its economy is in shambles.
Go figure, what's worse for a economy bombs or Washington' s economic advice ?
AP V
NY
NY - Monday February 09, 2004 at 6:06 pm
As of Nov 2003: 1,360,176 people employed (ie working) in Croatia & DalmatiaI haven't yet found Serbia's number of people employed, but this is a much better measure of economy than "unemployed" for unemployed stats are manipulated too easily.
Compare Serbia's vs. C&D's labour force participation rates and that will give a better idea just how much un-employment there is. I'd suggest between Serbia and Croatia/Dalmatia there isn't that much of a difference.
AP V
NY
NY - Monday February 09, 2004 at 6:44 pm
John,“Revisionist” is a term Holocaust deniers - the term you originally expressed puzzlement about - seem to me to attach increasingly to themselves and which others attach to them for the most part pejoratively, to be read as “denier.” I think it’s clear that scientific inquiry advances by people building upon and augmenting and yes, revising the theories and observations of others. Einstein’s physics was never described to me at least, in my admittedly lay exposure to it, as “denying” Newtonian physics. Rather Newtonian physics was said to account very neatly for a certain range of physical phenomena, but not all, and Einstein’s work to account for a different range of phenomena.
I suppose that if the methodological standards were relaxed sufficiently in various disciplines of science and in history, then all sorts of charlatanism could be admitted under the rubric of revisionism. Given that the term tells us nothing of the motives and spirit driving its proponent in any particular area of inquiry, it’s usefulness seems pretty limited to me. It can set off those who say there was no Jewish Holocaust from those who say there was, but I don’t conclude that the former are somehow trying to build scientifically upon and refine the body of work of the latter.
I’m aware that the notion of prosecuting people for their opinions and how their opinions may incite the actions of others is controversial. I wouldn’t necessarily have thought that that was the main thrust or character of the indictments facing Pres. Milosevic. But I shall try to look at your earlier references as I may be misreading the argument here. If a fact-driven defence case using material evidence *were* indicated, on the basis of the character of the indictments, I would think that the key consideration in whether he can get a fair trial is the nature of the institution trying him, its methods, independence, and standards. I know of some who consider the ICTY to be both a creature and practitioner of judicial “revisionism” (in the pejorative sense). Their criticisms seem convincing to me.
Jim Yarker
Canada - Monday February 09, 2004 at 7:16 pm
To PM VWhy not try looking at the standard of living of all countries in the region. It is obvious that the standard of living for Serbia's people is quite a bit lower than its neighbors. And that includes leaving Kosmet out of the comparison. Have you been to the region lately?
Ivan G
Cleveland
Ohio, US - Monday February 09, 2004 at 8:07 pm
Child 'training' like a dog Mr Aksamit? Raise your children like cattle and chickens if you want...I'll train mine thank you. What intellectual comment - crap is crap. Would you argue otherwise? Perhaps crap will turn into gold now that Slobo is in the Hague. You think? Child Phsychology is not based in the theory of evolution. It is based on years of observation of the behaviour of children to stimuli. By people gullible enough to believe in evolution and use it as a premise for every thing they observe. So yes I think you are uninformed. That's ok. I'm quite sure your misinformed. Maybe you would not get so upset if you educated yourself in this area. Who's upset chucklehead? But your last post is really dark. I hope you do not beat your children. Nope. But I think Goran would let you beat his 'children' for him though.That just wasn't nice was it? Appropriate perhaps, but not very nice.
Joel Aksamit
Cleveland Mo
USA