MILOSEVIC TRIAL DISCUSSION ARCHIVE

Is Slobodan Milosevic getting a fair trial?
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• discussion archive

• Monday February 10, 2003 at 1:20 am
  The Chinese Embassy bombing is indeed an intriguing moment of the NATO dirty little war and a potentially juicy law suit. But I'm afraid that the Chinese traded that possibility for their smooth accession to the WTO and that the momentum of the strong public protests in China over it (with attacks against the foreign embassies by angry crowds) has been missed. I remember watching a Chinese TV channel in English at that time (one of our TV stations transmitted it for a while), where some million-dollar compensations to the families of those killed and a formal apology by the US Administration were confirmed to be received. But then again, who knows whether China will not at some future point take this grudge out of the pocket and use it.

  I remember reading in the NYT the day after the bombing the column of that gung ho Thomas Friedman: he said that 'we are at war with the Serbian nation' and therefore all those embassies should not have remained in Belgrade (I'm confused here, when was the war declared, Thomas?). By that time, several other foreign embassies were already slightly damaged, the Italian among others: walls cracked, windows shattered, these being in downtown Belgrade, close to the Federal Police and the General Staff buildings both destroyed on 29 April, when 6 people were killed, most of them firemen arrived to intervene and hit in a repeated attack. The Italians, NATO member-country, remained in Belgrade throughout.

  To add a reality check to this abstract story of the Chinese Embassy, I'll try to give you a 'sleeping-witness account' of the event (my apartment is some 600 m from the Chinese Embassy and I was almost asleep at that moment). Yes, it was the 46th day of the bombing and us faceless worms being shot at from the safe height were getting used to it so much that we were actually going to sleep at night. Unlike many of my fellow citizens who daily went to air-raid shelters after the air-raid sirens were heard, I always remained in my apartment: I figured if I were to be killed, so be it, and in the meantime I would just try to live relatively normally. I even went to work every day, across the river to the old part of the town and I was cooking the most sumptuous dinners every evening, complete with wine.

  Here's some micro-topography: the Chinese Embassy is located in Novi Beograd=New Belgrade, the largest Belgrade city municipality, a flat triangle between the right banks of both the Sava and Danube rivers, below their confluence. It has been built completely from scratch after the WW2 on the sandy marshes, looks a bit like Brasilia (a Corbusier-dream of every architect: each block completely different, wide boulevards, abundant parks, 2 rivers) and other than few Federal Government buildings, Customs Office Bldg, Museum of Modern Arts, two sports halls, a huge concert hall, four hotels, a swimming pool, up to 5 brand new company headquarters, couple of cinemas and shopping malls, everything else is a dormitory, apartment buildings for 500,000 people, some only 2 storeys high and some up to 20. The Chinese Embassy was the only embassy this side of the river, all others are in the old Belgrade. The old town of Zemun that has merged now with the New Belgrade is a bit upstream on the Danube. At the outskirts there are suburbs of private houses, a civil (Surcin) and a military airport (Batajnica).

  By that time the NATO hits in New Belgrade were quite a few and there were civil casualties: Batajnica was being hit daily; one of the first targets was the city's central heating plant (when winter came that year, there was no heating for us); the old representative building of the Air Force in the heart of Zemun was seriously damaged; civil airport was hit once (but they had to keep it functioning, foreign politicians and journalists were coming and going all the time), the chemical factory upstream the river Sava was demolished, the skyscraper still known by its old name of the Central Committee Bldg, containing office space of various companies, TV studio and notably Milosevic's Party headquarters, was hit twice in six days: first by two missiles, and it burnt completely but remained standing (and now is being reconstructed), thanks to its concrete structure, unlike WTC Twins and their melted steel beams; the second time NATO sent one more missile, demolishing the TV antenna on the top that had remained standing after the first hit.

  At that same period, the other parts of Belgrade also suffered many of its damages and casualties (Federal and Republic Police Bldgs, 2 hospitals, Justice Dept. Bldg, JNA barracks, Milosevic's residency, RTS building, transformer stations, General Staff building, private houses and an old restaurant in the central Belgrade municipality of Vracar, huge TV tower at the Mount Avala. Would you believe that on 29 April, the night when the General Staff Bldg. and the TV tower were hit, we suffered a real, natural earthquake as well, and a pretty strong one, lasting some 30-40 terrible seconds! I remember laughing incredulously at the irony, holding on to the door-post while the building was swaying.

  Just five days before the Chinese Embassy bombing, there was the first total black-out in the whole of Serbia: NATO dropped graphite bombs (containers with graphite filaments that short-circuited the grid). There was neither electricity nor water, the telephones were dead, even the mobile phones, but all that only for few hours (our engineers were doing their damnedest throughout, and even when real bombs started to fall on the power grid, transformer stations and power plants, somehow always managed to re-establish the power; I remember reading later on that many of them were invited by the French to help them organize and maintain their power distribution).

  So, before that night of 7 May New Belgrade was quite familiar with the eerie wailing of sirens and the attacks almost got into a daily routine: the sirens announced another air-raid by their penetrating, shrill 2-tone wailing soon after 8 p.m. and would be heard again, this time in flat tone, between 5 and 6 a.m. signifying the end of the air-raid alarm. Of course, this was only at the beginning, when the NATO brains were under impression that this would all be over soon; but later on, the air-raids were happening not only by night, but also in the broad day light, around the clock.

  My apartment building is looking westward and I listened to the high-flying squadrons of planes coming from the general direction of Aviano, the Italian air base, flying daily to keep destroying Pancevo refineries and Novi Sad bridges. (My Italian friends later on described their own everyday horror of those same squadrons swishing above their pretty provincial houses, on their way to cross the Adriatic). I watched from my windows the heavy flak of anti-aircraft guns with their tracer bullets and the sight was of some sinister beauty, especially against the completely black city. Of course, the planes were too high to be hit by such small guns, but they kept them high and they put down few scuds before they reached their targets (a scud travels real slow and its perfectly visible, especially when it comes into a cross-fire). You see, I became perforce some kind of an arms expert.

  The night of the Chinese Embassy attack was the single most intense for Belgrade. I am not writing from memory, but I'm consulting my notes: every day, whenever power was available, I maniacally punched into my PC at the office all possible data that I could see, hear or read; this, together with my rage and hatred helped me to stay sane. The day started with air-raid sirens at 11.20 a.m. but that was obviously just another bunch of planes on their way to Novi Sad and not aiming at Belgrade; the sirens marked the end of alarm at 2.30 p.m. At 9.10 p.m. the sirens wailed again and that was our turn: at 9.25 graphite bombs fell only on Belgrade (as I heard later), power, telephones and mobile phones were cut. After few hours by the candlelight, listening to the relatively faraway blunt explosions, I went to sleep. At 11.45 p.m. I woke up to some particularly heavy distant explosions: these were the most classic 'stupid' extra-heavy bombs aimed to penetrate underground army facilities around the town, this we have already learned, and they caused constant shudders throughout the city. Exactly at midnight, just when I was about to fall asleep once more, I heard a hissing, buzzing sound coming from the west and so low that I froze, sure that my tall building will be hit. The planes never flew so low. But the swish passed over and a second later the impact was heard and felt: the whole building literally jumped. All car alarms in the parking lots around went on. My apartment looks westward; all those in the neighbourhood looking eastward lost their window panes. That was close. The power and the telephones were still off, but my mobile phone worked again (these fellows really did wonders!). A friend called 10 minutes after the impact and told us the Chinese Embassy was hit. We thought the Americans came too far this time, we hoped this would somehow turn things over. It didn't. It only made the air-raids on Belgrade stop for 4 days. Then they were resumed, even more vicious than before: a hospital on Dedinje, with civil casualties; no more graphite bombs, but real bombs on the power plant in Obrenovac, supplying Belgrade; real bombs on power grid, transforming stations and even individual pylons; real bombs on water-purifying plants in Makis, cutting water in Belgrade; Radio Belgrade broadcasting system; city's petrol supplies, even individual petrol stations were being demolished daily; and towards the end of those 78 days, they would not only bomb, but also break the sound barrier over the city many times a day, even outside the air-raid alarm time span. The intimidation of civilians to the point.

  But I haven't finished about that night. Shortly after midnight, in the close sequence, we heard several more impacts from the direction of the old town: the buildings of the Serbian Government, Federal Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Federal Ministry of Defence, General Staff and the Federal Police were all hit almost simultaneously (the last two had been targeted before, now they were completely destroyed - sheer vandalism). Then, at exactly 2 a.m. another too close impact was felt: a large hotel 'Jugoslavia' at the very bank of the Danube, 700 m from my apartment, was hit and there were civilian casualties. Around 3 a.m. the usual heavy thumps from the direction of Batajnica were heard, to finish the night. The sirens were heard in flat tone at 6.15 a.m. and I went to sleep.

  When I woke up, I walked to the Chinese Embassy and to the Hotel YU to take a look. The Embassy, a hyper-modern sprawling 2-storeyed edifice got 2 scuds into its west wing, where its residential section was (that's why all those casualties, people were sleeping there; the official entrance looks eastward, to the Danube). The missiles entered downwards as if through butter, and the structure, although concrete, stone and marble, was split up all the way to the cellar. There are no other buildings in the block around the Embassy, just a dense park, but the brand new apartment buildings across the wide street had every window shattered. The Hotel, which is nearby on the Danube, also got 2 missiles, one into its service wing with garage and the other right through its main entrance. But these two were so much smaller calibre or maybe without DU-reinforced head: the Embassy, although much more solidly built, was demolished, while the slender hotel, all in glass panes, only lost its garage roof and all the cars therein and the other missile just swished almost cleanly into the main hall and went through the whole width of the building.

  Later I heard and read explanations from NATO brains about the outdated city maps in their possession provided by the CIA and how the real target should have been the office building of JUGOIMPORT - SDPR (a company dealing in special, mostly military procurements), which is in the block across the wide boulevard, some 200 m from the Embassy (to prove that, the US has sacked some lower CIA officials; perhaps one of them was suing the Administration over it). To prove it further, the SDPR building was hit on 26 May (19 days later) with one small missile, even smaller than those used for the Hotel. The Chinese Embassy was on its same location for many years and some of those US Embassy officials in Belgrade who are euphemistically called 'second secretary' or 'commercial advisor' and who are actually the CIA, must have been at the cocktail party there at least once. No wander that scapegoat from the CIA who has been exemplary sacked was pissed enough to sue.

  Gogol, our 'governing' puppets trampled the Constitution when they changed the required 2/3-majority for any constitutional change into a simple majority, thus enabling the end of Yugoslavia. But that was their consistent behaviour: they pulled the same type of fraud when they kidnapped Milosevic. The Constitutional Court overruled them, but they ignored it. The same will happen now. The only remedy would be to get rid of them all together. As for hope, I'm the master in the art of hoping. Which doesn't mean I can predict accurately, just that I can go on living without being too desperate.
  
  Vera Martinovic
  Belgrade
  Yugoslavia

• Monday February 10, 2003 at 1:37 am
  Hi, I am not very familiar with the details of Lt.Gen. Satish Nambiar's posting in Bosnia, as my interest in Yugoslavia was sparked only after the immoral and illegal NATO bombing of Serbia. However, I have seen him often on TV and he comes across as a straight-talking and clear-headed soldier who is also well read. During the "humanitarian bombing" of Serbia, I remember reading a statement from him to the effect that during the Bosnian Civil War it was only the Bosnian Serbs who were ready to admit that they were no angels; all the other parties would sport haloes and keep on wailing about their misfortunes, as though it was only their side which suffered in the civil war. By definition, civil wars are the dirtiest of wars, and those who instigate such wars are the real war criminals, rather than the participants who are swept along a tide of chauvinism.
  
  Seshadri Raghavan
  India

• Monday February 10, 2003 at 3:39 am
  Pero, there are a lot of legal bases, but the problem is to find the viable one. That is why I have been concentrating on the Chinese Embassy bombing, because that is the one incident in the bombing campaign that has any chance of being settled in court any time in the future. We read Vera's superb description, and one can have no doubt that the bombing was indeed deliberate. Why not? Nato admitted bending the rules regarding the bombing when it bombed Milosevic's residence.

  It is also clear that the Chinese were indeed considering a law suit, but it may have been traded for a smooth accession to the WTO. If so, such deals cannot be made, and I hope the Chinese will do something readdress the issue. Maybe the dropping of the lawsuits also has something to do with Chinese aloofness, or just the simple lack of legal expertise. This legal complex is by no means easy to master, and you can bet the American lawyers are good at not losing lawsuits.

  The Chinese would get a fair compensation, which would be a good starting point for multiplying the sum thousandfold to cover all the damage in Yugoslavia. And add to this all the immaterial damage done to the Serbs over the years in form of propaganda lies.

  American party politics aside, I think the American plan for the rest of Bush's term will be this. China should not wait to long to take some steps to address the Kosovo bombing, because China will be next. The US is getting at China's back through North Korea. The US plan is to sandwich China between Afghanistan, where the US already has a foothold (as well as the former Soviet Central Asian republics) and North/South Korea.

  By the way, it is not true that has just gotten on the roller coaster that 'asian tigers' just got off. About a decade ago, about half of the world's building activity took place in Shanghai, as Soros mentions in passing in one of his books. And as to eliminating starvation from China, the credit is in the eyes of the beholder. I am certain the US wouldn't mind getting some of the praise, especially now that they have wrecked so many other economies.

  But back to the US geopolitical plan. A similar sandwich operation is taking shape in regard to Iran. The US is planning to squeeze Iran between Afghanistan, the former Soviet Central Asian republics and ultimately Iraq.

  Then there is the rogue state Syria. This will be no problem. It will be squeezed between Iraq, Turkey and Israel.

  So the Axis of Evil, and obviously the Axis of Good intertwined with it, will run from North Korea to Syria. Asia will be turned into a gigantic chess board. Every rogue state will be flanked by a US vassal state.

  The latest acquisition will be Iraq. I said the US will turn against its friends, and this has been taking place in Iraq for the past decade or so. Afghanistan, which the US used against the Soviet Union, is another example. That is how terrorism became a global threat.

  Other "friends" that the US would not hesitate to keep in check include: Japan, of course, and the EU, which the US is undermining by courting Britain. It has even been suggested that Britain should quit the EU and join the NAFTA.

  But behind all this military buzz there is still running the same "red peril" thread. Saddam's party are socialists. North Korea is one of the last communist-led states in the world. In fact, the current rogue states can be found in list of the Belgrade Forum participants.

  The International Court of Justice (ICJ) may be a political organ, but as long as the US is choosing which cases it wants adjudicated there, the ICJ will stay a political organ. The lawsuit that we are dealing with, the damage done by the Nato aggression, has nothing to do with the political nature of the ICJ. It has to do with justice. The political nature of the ICJ seems just a convenient excuse to withhold the just compensation.

  I don't know if it is realistic to predict that Milosevic might walk. He might walk, if he were getting a trial, but the ICTY is not even trying to feign a trial. "Private sessions" smacks more of red light zones than a courthouse.

  It is interesting to hear from Gogol that the trial chamber now prefers the expression "private session" to "closed session". As it well might. Closed sessions are regulated in the Statute. By changing the terminology, the judges and the prosecution might do whatever they like. It remains to be seen if the prosecution will have the power to request "private sessions", when Milosevic begins his defense stage.

  As we now have toyed with "concurrent jurisdiction," it is interesting to imagine what the trial would look like if the Milosevic trial were held in the US. According to the "concurrent jurisdiction," that would be entirely possible. It has been said that this trial would never be allowed to continue in the US courts. Indeed, it would be interesting to see what the Americans would do with Milosevic. We know the Americans have abducted a former head of State, Norriega, but I guess it is the end result that counts. Did Norriega get a fair trial after that miserable start?

  Anyway, I thought it was nice to see that JURIST put up a similar discussion to address the American military tribunals that were set up to deal with the Afghan prisoners of war. We saw only one contribution: from one of the judges in the military tribunal. No matter what his assurances of a fair trial ultimately amounted to, it was nice to see someone take personal responsibility. Can you imagine May giving such a personal assurance?

  But let us keep our feet on the ground. The Saddam tribunal will be reality soon, even if the war hasn't even started. Why would the US do something like that? Could it be that the Americans are not doing it for themselves but for their partners, like the British? The British and other Nato partners are threatened by an ICC investigation. Since the Americans know how to give all the publicity to those trials that they like, any ICC case would be eclipsed by the Saddam tribunal. That is why such a tribunal is needed.

  And this in turn suggests that if the Chinese are going to act, they had better act now and indict Clinton. Soon we are deluged with the Saddam farce, and nobody will pay any notice. (Or maybe these two farces would have a cumulative effect in making the US doubly ridiculous.)

  At least we can be sure that the new Saddam mess will be a relief for Blair, who is not able to lie convincingly about Kosovo any more. We got ourselves in a vicious circle.

  Now, what would happen if China would indict Clinton? All the evil axis and red threat rhetoric would be all we would hear. Or would it? Who could deny that the Chinese are actually right? If Nato bombed the embassy on May 8, why was it Milosevic who got indicted a few days later?

  Anyway, if China would come up with such a lawsuit, the US would have another excuse to continue the military buildup against North Korea. But even here, there is a vicious circle. The US would threaten another country with force. That is prohibited by the UN Charter - in Art. 2(4) - side by side with the use of force, which got some Nato countries to the ICJ.

  The whole UN may be political, but that is why different political systems are represented in the Security Council. By no means should the US commit crimes to circumvent that political body, as it did by going to war without the SC authorization. In fact, wasn't the Chinese embassy bombing designed to get the Chinese vote (or actually abstention) for the resolution ending the bombing campaign?
  
  Jari Nousiainen
  Finland

• Monday February 10, 2003 at 5:21 am
  Anna

  Regarding Serb PR, I can tell you what I do know. In the UK a PR Firm called Ian Greer Associates was on a small budget from the YU government. The British government shut it down because they suspected the money came from sanctions busting, though, of course, they needed no proof. The same firm closed down eventually because it was linked to the 'Cash for Questions' affair where British MP's were given money to ask questions at Prime Minister's Question Time in the House of Commons. The motivation though, is not hard to fathom and was the same for the bombing of Belgrade TV.

  Regarding the Chinese Embassy bombing, the most hilarious aspect (in a sick/ha ha way)was the cost. At least one B2 bomber (you know, the one that is supposed to be very difficult to see on radar and cost $2billion) flew all the way from its base in Missouri (18hrs(?)) to drop brand new top technology JDAMS (expensive satellite guided bombs) on the building. Those bombs landed directly in the Chinese Defense attache's office! Ironically, this probably counted in the Chinese favor when there was that little incident of the chinese fighter plane and the EP3....
  
  Alexei Gorbulski
  Brussels
  Belgium (You can check out any time you like, but you can never leave!)

• Monday February 10, 2003 at 12:49 pm
  

  Meanwhile back at the ICC 18 judges have been elected among them Claude Jorda. None is American and so far no prosecutor agreeable to all has been found.

  HERE

  Bravo W, just managed to split not only the UNO but also the NATO, keep at it and Texas will break away from the Union soon!
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  USA

• Monday February 10, 2003 at 3:49 pm
  Dear Anna Pullinger,

  I feel for you and your father. I can empathize. But look on the bright side: Regardless of ruined economy, regardless of sanction, bombing, 600 000 refugees, There was one good thing that happened: Serbs finally got united.

  When war started in 1941, it was common in Serbia that on brother goes to Cetniks and other to Partisans. The love was short lived and resulted in the fight between brothers. And than there is you fathers generation that was forced to leave. For the longest time Serbs were divided. Even church was divided. Not any more. We finaly got the sence of self back.

  I hope that some influential Serbs would also remember their origin - like Rod Blagojevic and help. I hope that Serbian people leave apathy behind and snap out of it. I hope that Serbian people wake up and stop begging for handout. We are smart, hardworking and honest. We can move mountains. And the best of all: we are not Croatians. So be joyful.
  
  Ana Dakic
  Serbia

• Monday February 10, 2003 at 4:02 pm
  Does anyone remember the helpless cries of the Albanians to save them from the Serbs? The game was to kill a few Serb Policemen and then run and hide. When the Serb retaliates the Albanians then cry foul and run to their sympathizers, those being the ones who were drawing up plans for a Camp Bondsteel. Do you remember Bill Clinton condemning the Serbian (Nazis)and crying out to the world that Kosovo would be multi ethnic? Clinton, Blair and of course many, many, more good clean Christians were supporting the poor Muslims who were being beaten down by the Serbs. The Muslims also had relatives by way of religious beliefs who still remember the glory days of the Ottoman Empire. Those relatives are living in a country whose chief export is black gold, of which I and many more of my American friends use to gas up our vehicles and scurry off to one place or another.

  The reason for all this chatter is the audacity shown by the Albanians in Kosovo and the silence from the great saviors who believed so strongly in multi ethnic Kosovo that they bombed their friends of two world wars for 78 days. If you think life is fair, read this and ask yourself why Milosevic is on trial? Count to ten and do not kick your computer screen.

  Read On but before I forget, VERA, thanx for your latest. I read this to my husband (not a Serbian) and his blue eyes were popping. He was very impressed with your writing ability.

  Kosovo repatriations uncertain, warns ombudsman | 13:20 | B92

  PRISTINA -- Monday - Kosovo’s ombudsman has warned that the promised mass return of Serbs and other non-Albanians to Kosovo this year is quite unlikely.

  “If refugees return to Kosovo, it will be just a few thousand of them,” said Marek Antoni Nowicki.

  Nowicki said that the uncertain future of the province, together with restrictions on movement and a difficult economic situation had called the repatriation process into question.

  The few people who did return would mainly go to villages where they wouldn’t get in anyone’s way, he added.

  “According to my analysis there is no future for the return of refugees to cities, because there is no place for them.

  “It’s not just the lack of space, but property has been confiscated and all services are in the hands of the Albanians,” said Nowicki, adding that the province had turned more and more into an Albanian-language region which would also cause problems for Serbs.

  “Serbs today think that they will go back to what is theirs in Kosovo, but it no longer exists.

  “Kosovo today is very different from the way it was in 1999 when they left. “Serbs are trying to work out how they can leave Kosovo and those who stay will live on the margins of society,” the ombudsman warned, adding that Serbs were now trying to sell their property in the province.

  
  
  Kathryn Love
  SJC
  USA

• Monday February 10, 2003 at 4:46 pm
  Dear Ana Dakic,

  Will you please stop insulting other people, that king of arguments just doesn't belong here, at least not on our side.
  
  Vedran Tosic
  Netherlands

• Monday February 10, 2003 at 5:00 pm
  Mr. Vedran Tosic

  I just searched this site for two days back to find where was Ms. Dakic insulting anyone.

  Could not find it!

  Are uou perhaps mistaken. Mr. Vedran Tosic?
  
  D. Jovanovic
  USA

• Monday February 10, 2003 at 5:20 pm
  Mr. D. Jovanovic,

  And the best of all: we are not Croatians. So be joyful.

  Why should I be joyful because I am not Croatian? My parents taught me that should be proud of what I am, not what I am not.
  
  Vedran Tosic
  Netherlands

• Monday February 10, 2003 at 5:31 pm
  To Vedran Tosic, If you referring to my comment that I am glad I am not Croatian, that is not an insult. I AM glad that I am not Croatian especially after this

  http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/2734419.stm

  I am sorry if I insulted you. That fact that I like being who I am and of the nationality that I am, should not stop you from being proud of whom you are. What I am trying to say is: I really do not give a dam what flags you are using to cheer on soccer games. However I do care about salutes.
  
  Ana Dakic
  Serbia

• Monday February 10, 2003 at 5:38 pm
  I think calling that an insult is a stretch.
  
  Anna Pullinger
  California

• Monday February 10, 2003 at 6:27 pm
  Dear Ana,

  I reacted on your post because I AM Serb (not from mixed marriage), I reacted also because this site (as I see it) is not about Sebs or Croats or even Milosevic, it is about future in which our childrena are going to live. This site maintain resistance to the rape of the human common sense comitted by corporate media and big powers (and that rape contionues this very moment on Iraq case) that's why I really don't like your apprach to the Croats as lower people even they made lot of terrible political mistakes and did horrible crimes but that doesn't belong to Croats that belongs to human nature.

  Now is my turn to appolagize to you in case I hurt you, but I think we take to much space for quite irrelavant discusion.
  
  Vedran Tosic
  Netherlands

• Monday February 10, 2003 at 6:42 pm
  Ms Dakic and other posters your comment about best of all not being Croatian is an insult. Ones who think not must say how they feel when somebody comes on to any forum saying Best of all we are not Serbs. I as (Mg) Serb would be insulted by this comment so I expect any Croat or any nationality would be also. If you are proud of your nation you dont need another one in order to define your feeling

  At risk of to sound pro Croat - which would be surprising my friends, I must correct another comment made by some people posting before. Zidovi is not derrogatory name for jews in Croatia. I think most you know this but sad that nobody said this.

  We had some bad done to us by Croats and we did some bad to them but let us show we are better than them in good way. This conected to question of how to present yourself (public relation) is better than to propogate 'enemy'
  
  Stevan Mirkovic
  YUG (no to Serb / MG!)

• Monday February 10, 2003 at 6:43 pm
  Dear Vedran, I apologize again. It was not mean as an insult: it was actually part of the very stupid unsuccessful joke. I am however little "sensitive" when it comes to Yugoslavia. I am so angry that Croatia is erecting a new monument in Jasenovac that shall have inscription: "To Jewish People and other minorities". That is like adding a salt to an open wound. Willy Brandt had a decency to go to Auswich to get on his knees and beg for forgiveness. I can almost hear the cries of Kozara children and I wonder when will they souls be allowed to rest in peace?
  
  Ana Dakic
  Serbia

• Monday February 10, 2003 at 7:03 pm
  Ana Dakic,

  I understood your joke and the spirit in which it was written. I didn't assume you were a bigot because I know why you said what you did. It doesn't mean that you paint all Croats with the same brush. I understood that you were thankful, in your comment, that we Serbs don't have Croatian history. Why shouldn't we be glad about that? We Serbs need to build on our history and therein you found reasons for me to be joyful. Enough said, I think.
  
  Anna Pullinger
  California

• Monday February 10, 2003 at 7:12 pm
  Dear Ana,

  Belive me, I do understand you and thanks for understanding me.

  Regards
  
  Vedran Tosic
  Netherlands

• Monday February 10, 2003 at 7:59 pm
  Ana: Thank you for the link to BBC news.

  Poor BBC they did not report in 1991 when most of the ZNG soldiers were saluting in the same way, some of the Commanders adopted awe salute as official, it was adopted practice that every soldier was saluting on the street, having many pedestrians returning salute, and every HOS was wearing black uniforms, and some special forces were wearing black undershirt and carrying unusually long knife, wearing black mask over his face, or applying black cream over his face, singing "Ima jedna rijeka i zove se Drina" ("There is a river called Drina") and “Pasce bomba na Beograd”, ( “A bomb will fall on Belgrade”) etc.

  Instead BBC found fascism in Milosevic's Kosovo speech.

  That hypocrisy remained me of “Wild West” joke:
  Cowboy Jo is coming to a bar seeing young beautiful lady chatting with a man besides a bar.
  Jo takes his gun and shoot the man. While he was holding a smoking gun he approached the lady asking, “How come such a nice lady is alone in the bar?”
  
  Pero Peric
  Canada

• Monday February 10, 2003 at 8:26 pm
  Pero,I sympathised with the Serbs living in Croatia just before Croatia became independent. There were definately many signs of the revival of fascism. Just take a look at Tudjman and especially his Defence Minister Gojko Susak who never tried to hide his hate for Serbs. Of course,it is wrong to generalise to a population because the majority of Croats I believe were not interested in fascism anymore. However,the HDZ and the Zengas portrayed a negative image of Croatia to the world (but of course,the West blamed the Serbs far more). Its strange but I cannot recall a single instance where Milosevic used a rascist insult against another ethnic group,whereas Tudjman said: "Thank God my wife isn't a Jew or a Serb" yet Milosevic is branded the devil of devils,whereas Tudjman just gets a tiny bit of criticism (mostly for the Croats' role in BiH).
  
  Ryan Mircic
  UK

• Monday February 10, 2003 at 8:28 pm
  rather "got"
  
  Ryan Mircic
  UK

• Monday February 10, 2003 at 9:41 pm
  Ryan: I am sorry if you got a feeling that I generalized in any of my posts, I did not have intention and I never do that. Perhaps, my description of the size of pro-nazi activities, made you think that I did, however I did not.

  And I disagree with you ust on the "many signs", since the outcome was ethnically pure state.

  I would recomend reading on the roots of "The State Purification" at the following link, where is possible to find documents, that even Nazi states at the time(German and Italy) where astonished by the size and criminal activities commited against Jews and Serbs:

  link
  
  Pero Peric
  Canada

• Monday February 10, 2003 at 10:42 pm
  On the same web site there is a page about "New study questions values taught in Croatia's textbooks"
  New values
  
  Pero Peric
  Canada

• Monday February 10, 2003 at 10:59 pm
  

  I just got back from the cinema, a rather sad story which I did not like:

  Vila jedman jedna zemlja
  1995
  The best line I find it to be when Marko says to Vera:

  "When we are not bombed by the Germans we are bombed by the allies" referring to that un-explainned bombing of Belgrade in 1945. History has its ways.
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Conn., USA

• Monday February 10, 2003 at 11:00 pm
  
  
  G C
  USA

• Tuesday February 11, 2003 at 1:39 am
  Watergate=Clinton? JP US WIS, You are an idiot.

  The Balkan wars were started under Bush 1 with US money and CIA backing. Albright was a Republican plant and Jamie Shay kept the ball rolling, using the same writers that now try to convince the world that Saddam eats babbies.

  It is time for the UN to stop this war monger.

  It is time for you Americans to insist, that Bush 1's papers be made public so the world can see the evil of the US right wing
  
  Pertti Lindroos
  Quesnel
  BC Canada

• Tuesday February 11, 2003 at 2:42 am
  Yes, it is true that the US involvement in the Balkans under Bush Senior. It was George Bush Sr. who told Milosevic in December 1992 that he had better not start messing up in Kosovo.

  However, it leads us nowhere to blame the Republicans or the Democrats. Yet, there is a very easy explanation why some people "find the weeds and not the vegetables".

  It is up to the respective group to pluck out the weeds. Until this is done, the whole group will be stigmatized. It is nice that the Republicans say that Clinton was wrong, but is that supposed to make anyone feel better? We need to see some action. If Clinton was wrong - and there is little doubt he is a war criminal - then the decent Americans, who we hear so much about, should punish him. It is not enough to say you're sorry. It was under Clinton's watchful eyes that Milosevic got indicted, and I would have no qualms making Bill take his own medicine. This is justice. The longer the Americans refuse to accept the fact and take the necessary steps to punish their own war criminals, the greater the probability becomes that someday somebody else will do it.

  From the information that I have managed to gather it seems that China and the US made an agreement on the diplomatic level to settle the bombing damage. The less noise the US makes about this deal, the greater the likelihood that the Serbs could use that as a precedent.

  If the US doesn't like the ICJ, that is no excuse not to repair the damage to the Serbs. The UN Charter expressly allows the states to find establish other tribunals to settle their disputes. This is in fact what the US did with Iran, when the US-Iran Claims Tribunal was established.

  Normally, such out-of-court settlements would be secret, but since this one was done between two states, I doubt whether this rule applies. Secret diplomacy is forbidden. Besides, if the US paid the damage to China, the equality of states requires the US should repair the damage to Yugoslavia as well.

  The collateral damage notwithstanding, I guess most of the bombing damage was done to military structures. However, as long as the deal between China and the US is there, I would be willing to concede that the US bombed the Chinese embassy because of the military equipment in the basement. That would mean that the US would have to pay the damage done to the Yugoslav military structures as well.

  Of course, the new Yugoslav leadership will do nothing. Besides, it won't exist much longer. However, I would regard it as China's duty to act as a mediator between the US and Yugoslavia to get this thing to a "closure".

  It is a little-known fact that you cannot make any deal you want. One of the reasons a deal can be null and void is that it contains an immoral clause. One such clause would be to withhold a similar reparation from Yugoslavia. Another such clause would be to abort the prosecution of the American war criminals.

  Besides, whatever kind of deal was made, China could say that new facts have come to light. Probably the deal was made by assuming that the Chinese embassy bombing was indeed collateral damage. If that assumption can be undermined, the whole affair can be reopened, so that Yugoslavia will be included.

  The sooner the Americans start abiding by the rules, the better. It may be that a new world order is inevitable, but without rules it will be a disorder, as Jared Israel cleverly puts it, and such a construction will topple even before it has been erected.

  But then you will have to accept the unpleasant fact. Any settlement will fall short of real satisfaction until Clinton and Co. are prosecuted. In fact, it is unlikely any settlement would be reached before this is done. It is now the turn of the US to show some leadership instead of running away from its responsibility.
  
  Jari Nousiainen
  Finland

• Tuesday February 11, 2003 at 4:02 am
  Stevan,
  thanks for clearing up the 'zidovi' thing. Even so, this doesn't detract from the fact that they were chanting 'Jews' at the JNA soldiers. Hardly a enamouring action...

  Ryan,
  I've heard the Pavelic 'neither Serb nor Jew' is actually taken out of context. I think he is referring to a couple of other well known persons (sorry, can't remember who exactly!) who came to grisly ends, one of which's wife was Serb, the other Jew. I think it maybe one of those enduring balkan myths!
  
  Alexei Gorbulski
  Brussels
  Belgium (centre of the known universe)

• Tuesday February 11, 2003 at 4:26 am
  Oops! It was Tudjman! Found the explanation:

  ...They say that Hitler's aunt was a Jew (we won't mention here Pavelic's wife)...
  
  Alexei Gorbulski
  Brussels
  Belgium (EUtopia)

• Tuesday February 11, 2003 at 6:20 am
  Before the Ovcara massacre in Vukovar, the

  Danube Carries Something.

  When will we hear of the ICTY's investigation into pre-Ovcara crimes???
  
  Alexei Gorbulski
  Brussels
  Belgium (where?)

• Tuesday February 11, 2003 at 11:03 am
  A Crusade of Destruction

  From the Special Assignment in the Southeast, the memoirs of German Minister Plenipotentiary to Southeast Europe Dr. Hermann Neubacher.

  A Croatian crusade of destruction directed against the Orthodox Serbs erupted, a crusade that belongs among the most brutal mass murder undertakings in the entire history of the world...

  Alongside this explosive national situation, religious conflict drew the Catholics, Orthodox Serbs and Muslims against one another. Once, when I spoke to a Cetnik leader in Montenegro about ending attacks on the Muslims - which he did promise me, and he kept his promise - I received an answer that could have come from the anecdotes of Marco Miljanov back in the time of the Turkish occupation: "He who adopts Islam, is no longer a Serb!"

  The slaughter of the Orthodox Serbs undertaken the Ustasha leaders and led by the Poglavnik (head of state) of Croatia, Ante Pavelic, reminds one of the religious wars of bloodiest memory. "A third must become Catholic, a third must leave the country, and a third must die!" This last point of their program was accomplished. When prominent Ustasha leaders claimed that they slaughtered a million Serbs (including babies, children, women and the elderly), that is, in my opinion, a boastful exaggeration. On the basis of the reports submitted to me, I believe that the number of defenseless victims slaughtered to be three quarters of a million.

  When I once again brought up the truth about the terrible atrocities around me in Croatia, Adolf Hitler said to me:

  "I have also told the Poglavnik that one cannot exterminate such a minority: it is simply too large!"

  Source: Neubacher, Dr. Hermann. Special Assignment in the Southeast, p. 18-30.

  A Crusade of Destruction
  
  Pero Peric
  Canada

• Tuesday February 11, 2003 at 12:26 pm
  Pero,

  Here is something you might find interesting.

  A book entitled"THE VATICAN'S HOLOCAUST: THE MOST HORRIFYING RELIGIOUS MASSACRE OF THE 20TH CENTURY"

  The Book is written by a British man named Avro Manhattan, he is neither Serb nor Croat, and he isn't Orthodox and he isn't Catholic. His book really outlines the connection between the Vatican and the Ustasha.

  I was talking to Petar Makara one day (he does Srpska-Mreza.com) and he was telling me that the Vatican Bank, to this very day, is still holding the money that the Ustasha looted from the Serbs, Jews and Gypsies who had the misfortune of living in the Independent State of Croatia. In fact, if anybody cares to see it there is a whole website about the issue: www.vaticanbankclaims.com

  I'm not doing this to bash Catholics, indeed many American Catholics fought against the Nazis, but the degree of cooperation between the Vatican and the fascists in Croatia is too great to ignore.

  "The Serbs helping the Serbs. And that seems to be a crime. Why, then, is it not a crime that, for example, the Vatican provided money through the Vatican bank for the purchase of weapons for Croatia, by the same token? And then, as Serbia helped the Serbs, I am a criminal, and as the Vatican helped the Croats to perform secession by violent means, the Pope remains the Holy Father." - Slobodan Milosevic
  
  Andy Wilcoxson
  Washington, United States

• Tuesday February 11, 2003 at 12:41 pm
  Ok already PL. Let's call it Watergate II, or precisely Whitewater. Big deal, I'm sure you got the meaning.

  I'm not aware, but I don't think BushI started the 'Balkan wars'. I never read his account. I'm under the impression there was a 'NATO' policy at the time to 'breakup' Yugoslavia, so as not to be a threat or that one ethnic group could only rule by 'force', disrupting the area. Granted, I don't think BushI, Dole and many others felt that Milosevic should attempt to replace Tito. From my point of view, picking and keeping Milosevic would have been a better course.

  Tribunal 'testimony' and the way Milosevic presided over Yugoslavia and especially Serbia, leads me to consider him the best leaders the Balkans ever produced.

  But then, international diplomacy and interference has 'laws' and limits. Those were broken and crossed by NATO, led IMO by Germany and France. The US ( with a on the dock dysfunctional) and England ( ever opportunistic, re the tribunal) jumped in, just so as not to be left out.

  The Albright was a Republican plant aside is loo loo. Certainly wouldn't want to turn you loose into the US (BushI) archives. The waters are murky enough without adding venom.

  Sad that Clinton travels the 'world' for big bucks speaking engagements, and stays afloat by managing to suckle his liberal Democratic enablers. Justice usually grinds on and the actual perps aren't in the clear just yet. But our task for the most part, lies ahead.

  Sad at the attempts to saddle W with the past, it's not fair game. Let's stay current and consider both the pros and cons.
  
  J P
  US, Wis

• Tuesday February 11, 2003 at 12:41 pm
  THOUGHTS & RATIONALE FOR A COURSE OF LEGAL ACTION ON CHINESE EMBASSY BOMBING

  (prompted by Jari's & Vera's posts)

  In agreement with the Observer Oct.17, 1999 article, I believe that Clinton's motive for the deliberate bombing was that the embassy was indeed offering electronic services to the Yugoslav army. Unfortunately, for political reasons discussed by Jari, the Chinese have not pursued the matter legally. It is also unlikely that any effective legal challenge can be launched by Serbia or Serbian individuals.

  It appears that statements and actions by the Clinton administration after the bombing (e.g. the various conflicting and demonstrably false "explanations", or the disciplinary actions against CIA and Mapping Agency employees) broke US law and can form a sound basis for legal action in the US launched by individuals and organizations not necessarily limited to those who were directly harmed. In other words, it is easier to start legal action by first showing not that the bombing was deliberate but that the administration lied about the matter and broke US law, just like the Monica scandal took huge legal proportions because Clinton lied about it. Attempts to continue covering up the matter (e.g. by invoking "national security" reasons) will likely be vulnerable to exposure as continued lies and obstruction of justice in the eyes of any objective observer.

  I am not a legal expert, but the case has merit and I believe that many legal loose ends can be exploited. It will be interesting to see more expert suggestions on this line. Even a legally trivial challenge could spark a revived journalistic interest that, along with the gradually escalating legal proceedings, might be impossible to control and would lead to widespread appreciation that the bombing was indeed deliberate. In the current climate of worldwide opposition to US unilateral militarism, many will take up an opportunity to expose this war crime.
  
  Pythagoras Crotoniatis
  Greece

• Tuesday February 11, 2003 at 12:46 pm
  Andy, Reading that, especially the Milosevic quote, gave me chills.
  
  Anna Pullinger
  California

• Tuesday February 11, 2003 at 1:27 pm
  Crimes are happening in a chronological order. So, prosecution of these crimes should happen in a chronological order too, in order to prevent future crimes.

  Any future crime is a subsequent crime. If the first crime was prosecuted a subsequent crime would not happened.

  If this was true what Hermann Neubacher wrote: “A third must become Catholic, a third must leave the country, and a third must die!" This last point of their program was accomplished.”

  A program what Hermann refers to was proclaimed by Mile Budak, and carried out by Pavelic, his Ministers and Stepinac.

  Then according to use of same symbols, same language, same currency, naming streets to Budak, rehabilitating Pavelic and Stepinac, demolishing Jasenovac, making hero of Miro Baresic, awarding Mihajlo Hrastov for killing 14 people in 1991 before war erupted, killing people in police stations, using police (SZUP) to raze houses and shops, bring laws to expropriate Serbian property, forbidding one to declare themselves as Yugoslavian
  -Plan implementation was accomplished in 1995. (Not how it was originally planned, since they do not have any more third to convert) That’s why they are “erecting a new monument in Jasenovac that shall have inscription:” "To Jewish People and other minorities", and that’s why they are saluting today, and seeking return of La Guardia hijacker. Croatia seeks return of ….

  Everything is clean and well documented in this case, yet there is five people ex presidents of states in Hague from Balkan (not mentioning that they are Serbs) indicted for genocide, since they must have “some secret plan” and they must have formed a “Joint criminal enterprise”.

  What about above mention Joint criminal enterprise, which was formed and acted before and during Milosevic was in power, and it is active today?

  Babic witnessed that propaganda from Belgrade stirred up Serbian population. Milosevic asked him wasn’t it acts from Croatian side and actual crimes commited that did it?
  Babic obviously forgot that while that could be a case in Krajina that such a case would not hold water in Croatia, (where Serbs a way outnumbered Serbs from Krajina) at that time all broadcasting stations were put under “HINA” and “Hrvatski radio”, and “HTV”, all telephone lines with Serbia and Bosnia were broken. People are calling and seeking relatives calling first friends elsewhere (Germany, Canada etc) to establish any connection with refugees in Serbia and Bosnia.

  Carla read censuses and chronological order please. Perhaps if you indicted somebody for nazism in 1990 the bloody war would not happened.
  
  Pero Peric
  Canada

• Tuesday February 11, 2003 at 3:47 pm
  According to outcomes Bush1 started the war in Balkans.
  Europe laid out plan in mid 80’s to establish a common state. It was set a deadline 1992. The only question that stayed unanswered was common army.
  Such a state would have 500 million consumers and a huge potential well educated labor force which could be easily trained to accomplish tasks in new technologies and in late 80’s it was still undefined Russians course.

  That state would have much stronger market and resources than US.

  In all geopolitical books Balkan was considered as barrel of gunpowder. Even CIA in 1978 made a demo scenario of WWIII starting in Kosovo. (So US politicians had been aware where to start war easily).

  EU happened nine years later but not how it was planned.

  When recently France and German opposed to war on Irak, Donald Rumsfeld told them that they are representing old Europe. A week later came out why he said so:
  Before Collin Powel appearance at Security Council UN, ten states from Eastern Europe sent letter as support to US politics toward Irak. States subscribers were: Romania, Bulgaria, Slovenia, Slovakia, Estonia, Leetonia, Litany, Albania, Macedonia and Croatia.

  Since East European leaders did not give a support to Germans and Franc intentions to avoid war and they publicly supported cooperation with Washington; it heated up Franc’s fear that East European countries when they become member of EU will become US Trojan horse in EU.

  If Germany wanted common Europe without borders in late 80’s, why they promised help in 1989 to Croatian representatives if they secede from Yu, and why they forced the rest of the Europe to recognize Croatia as independent state. (Later admitting that it was too early and the mistake - I am glad that they really today from Rumsfield speech can recognize a mistake)?

  So if they did not need borders in EU why did they need borders in YU as future part of the EU? War in Yugoslavia brought a precedent to Germany since from then they can employee their armed forces anywhere in the World, which it was forbidden since 1945. And they are practically rehabilitated from nazi past. They raised a voice for the first time that they had the most right to judge about nazism regarding the war in Bosnia.

  The other partner which forced early recognition was France - not that they publicly made it but in Masticht in Dec 1991 they hold official position that for the sake of the integral European politics they would agree.
  Excuse already seen in 1956 when Russian troops entered Hungary Tito as the most credible one in Eastern Europe at that time said: “We cannot agree with such acts but intervention was necessary.” Which resulted in the first Moscow agreement in 1956 easing for the first time after 1948 tensions between YU and SSSR.

  The same question applies to France if they planned to have EU state without borders why they needed borders in Yu?
  I have to yet investigate what France thought they gained. (Could it be that they were just blackmailed? - as they were Italians during NATO Bombing)

  If one thinks at that time it would be easier to start war in Kosovo since the problem there already existed, but the question remains how successfully, Serbia would fight to the last man, Bosnia would unconditionally support Serbia, Croatia and Slovenia were mixed, but official Republic’s representative supported Yu politics towards Kosovo, besides that there was no routs over mountains to bring heavy artillery and tanks. So integrity of Yugoslavia had to be further decomposed, leave Kosovo for later since one already has friends there who can be used at better time.

  To use Serbs to destroy Yugoslavia was not foreseeable since they were they represent a critical mass to build 1918 and 1945 Yugoslavia. So for one who wants to destroy Yugoslavia Serbs are enemies. (If nobody else on this World Serbs know that)

  There was already so many neo - nazi and terrorist organization from Croatian past inheritance, and they already were collecting money for that cause - Why not use them and that would humiliate Serbian population, and consequently divide Serbs and Croats, then spread to Bosnia

  That scenario was much more prone to success. Since there were already dissidents in Croatia, well established net of terrorists organizations and good existing links between some western politicians and those groups. Germany as historical ally and Eastern Germany that should be clean from tanks left from the cold war. For logistical support there were good lines through Adriatic see and the only thing was some support from Security Council to ban export guns to Yu, and under this excuse take control over Adriatic see - If the war does not go as one plans one will support the chosen side and at the end will come with its forces to bring a peace.

  Favoring so much nazism in Croatia could cause reaction in Russia. So they were prepared, Jeljcin was in power and when his chair become unstable he used tanks against its own parliament, and yet that was supported from West as democratic act.

  The way to the plan implementation was clear, at the end one will blame a victim.

  Mesic said on the beginning of 1991 that Serbs will lose Krajina, Bosnia, Kosovo, Vojvodina, and will end up as “Beogradski Pasaluk” (County of Belgrade) in a civil war. I think that such a plan was presented to him.
  

  In mid 90’s there was in US so many complaints coming about the treatment of Jews including personal ones to Goldstain and Clinton strongly condemned those, signifying intention to break politics with those tightly connected to Germany. (Since they played they role)

  Mesic split with Tudjman
  Mesic become a president of Croatia
  Mesic testified against Milosevic saying that while he (Mesic) was a president of Yugoslavia in 1991 informed US Administration (not German) about JNA producing forbidden weapons. (In the testimony it seems that Milosevic ordered that - but if it was done so; it was Tito’s politics not Milosevic - and Mesic obviously despite his role as a president broke Yugoslavian practice that was established by Tito - so he was the first who came to break Yugoslavia, and he was so proud of it)

  In February 2003 Mesic sent letter to Powell supporting US not Germany politics towards Iraq, proving Rumsfield case “Old Europe”.

  The notion of the Rumsfield Europe is much stronger case for destroying Yugoslavia then any socialist cause, any pipeline and any humanitarian intervention.

  Americans are really smart; and as W. Busch said don’t miss underestimate them.
  
  Pero Peric
  Canada

• Tuesday February 11, 2003 at 5:59 pm
  

  Chicago Tribune, May 10, 1999

  U.S. Aggression

  WASHINGTON-As the bombs, smart and dumb, fall ceaselessly on Serbia,Montenegrins and sometimes Albanians, on bridges, waterworks,electric generation plants and factories, and on trains, trucks and homes, the remorseless crusade for "humanitariansm" presses forward to the applause of journalistic and academic shills. To paraphrase the Roman historian Tacitus, we are busy creating a desert, which we can then call peace.

  For the United States, alias "NATO," the planning and launching of this war by the president heightens the abuse and undermining of warmaking authority under the Constitution. (It seems to be accepted that the president can order his personal army to attack any country he pleases). The bombing war also violates and shreds the basic provisions of the United Nations Charter and other conventions and treaties; the attack on Yugoslavia constitutes the most brazen international aggression since the Nazis attacked Poland to prevent "Polish atrocities" against Germans. The United States has discarded pretensions to international leglity and decency, and embarked on a course of raw imperlalism run amok.

  Our alleged concern with human rights borders on the ludicrous. We dropped twice as many bombs on Vietnam as all the countries involved in World War II dropped on each other. We killed hundreds of thousands of civilians in the course of that war. Very recently, in Central America, we sponsored, trained and endorsed the local armies - Guatemalan, Salvadoran, and Nicaraguan Contras - in the killing of at least 200,000 people.

  We encouraged the Pinochet coup in Chile with the resulting killing of another few thousand or so people, including the democratically elected president. We saw nothing wrong with the Croat slaughter and expulsion of 200,000 Serbs from the Krajina area. We have taken very little stand on the monumental slaughters of hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of people in Africa. We have restrained the Iraqis from attacking Kurds but see nothing amiss in Turks attacking Kurds. We cannot even agree to abondon the use of land mines.

  In reality when we, the self-anointed rulers of the planet, issue an ultimatum to another country, it is "surrender or die." To maintain our "credibillty," we must crush any semblance of resistance to our dictates to that country.

  Walter J. Rockler Former prosecutor Nuremberg war crimes trials"
  
  Ana Dakic
  Serbia

• Tuesday February 11, 2003 at 6:30 pm
  Alexei, Regarding the Tudjman quote: as far as I'm aware Tudjman himself literally said: "Thank God my wife isn't a Jew or a Serb". Even Marcus Tanner,who is staunchly pro-Croat admitted this in his book and said that it didn't improve Tudjman's image.

  Regards.
  
  Ryan Mircic
  UK

• Tuesday February 11, 2003 at 6:58 pm
  

  I don't care to belong to a club that accepts people like me as members.

  Groucho Marx
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Conn., USA

• Tuesday February 11, 2003 at 7:06 pm
  

  Few are those who see with their own eyes and feel with their own hearts.

  Albert Einstein
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Conn., USA

• Tuesday February 11, 2003 at 7:14 pm
  

  My last one:

  In America the President reigns for four years and journalism governs forever and ever.

  Oscar Wilde

  
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Conn., USA

• Tuesday February 11, 2003 at 8:16 pm
  

  Tribunal transcripts up to date HERE
  
  G C
  Conn., USA

• Tuesday February 11, 2003 at 9:40 pm
  Which is the benefit of being a Serb nowadays???...you get a free flight to the Hague and a hot meal in XXXXX :-) "The ones that need to dream with their eyes open...can not face reality" by me
  
  Rita Rita
  USA of course

• Tuesday February 11, 2003 at 9:54 pm
  Good points, Jari, about compensation for damages. There's one thing I'd like to clarify, though. You said: "The collateral damage notwithstanding, I guess most of the bombing damage was done to military structures." Not so. Most of the damage done was to civic and private structures. And, there was no such thing as 'collateral damage' whatsoever. Let me explain.

  What I wrote in my previous post regarded Belgrade alone. As I said, there were foreign politicians and journalists coming and going throughout, and it would have been a very bad PR if the NATO carpet-bombed Belgrade residential quarters. There was only one such attempt: on 29 April few bombs fell on a densely populated old-town quarter of Vracar, the very heart of Belgrade: several private houses and a restaurant were demolished, few people were killed. The NATO never repeated that in Belgrade again (it could look bad in the evening news); all other residential quarters that were hit later on were located in the suburbs. Instead, in Belgrade proper they paraded their precision-bombing prowess, so that the CNN and the SKY correspondents could admire it from their windows at the Intercontinental and Hyatt Regency Hotels across the boulevard, some 800 m from the Central Committee Bldg which had been neatly hit twice in 6 days. Aware of the notorious lack of investigative urge of their journalists (most of them never left their hotel rooms, let alone ventured around the city or, God forbid, into the country), the NATO could peacefully and systematically demolish Belgrade civic infra-structure (power plants & grid, water-purifying plants, central heating plant, 3 hospitals, petrol stations and tanks, suburban factories and private housing estates, radio and TV broadcasting systems, RTS building, a 100+ m tall beauty of a TV tower on the nearby Mt. Avala, secession-style downtown buildings of Justice Dept, Federal Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Serbian Govt, an office skyscraper, a hotel). Strictly speaking, only 3-4 JNA barracks, General Staff Bldg, Federal & Republic Police Bldgs, Federal Ministry of Defence Bldg, Batajnica airport and underground army facilities (btw, not destroyed by those stupid heavy bombs after all) were military targets that were hit. And these were only empty buildings, all the equipment, men, vehicles, airplanes had been removed and an overwhelming bulk of those remained intact. So, you see, even in Belgrade the damage done to civic structures largely exceeded that done to military structures. Both of those two first-class Belgrade hotels have their independent power generators and emergency water supply, so a correspondent could take his shower undisturbed and type out his report about 'military targets'. Nothing that was hit, either of civic or military purpose, was a 'collateral damage', those were precision-bombing exercises. And civilians were killed in civic and private structures.

  As for other towns, both in Serbia proper and on Kosmet, they could have been on the Moon as far as those truth-loving scribes were concerned. And there the NATO's crazed Gen. Clark could run amok at large: the whole sections of small town centres were demolished (Aleksinac, Surdulica, Prizren, Sabac, Gnjilane…), villages pulverised, even individual farms targeted, all types of bridges (not only those 3 notorious in Novi Sad, but railway and even foot-bridges and flyovers everywhere) were repeatedly hit, all kinds of factories systematically destroyed one by one, even those that can in no way be connected with military purposes, such as fertilizer and chemical plants, causing environmental disaster, then refineries were smashed so many times that there was nothing left to be hit anymore, other TV and local government buildings were targeted (Novi Sad), post offices, bus stations, a prison, hospitals, sanatoriums and retirement homes outside of towns, schools, ski resorts, tunnels, power plants and grid etc. etc. And, of course, Clark could freely experiment with live targets for his cluster bombs, DU ammo and shells and 'usefully' get rid of the stock with its shelf life about to expire. And his trigger-happy pilots could practice on real trains, buses, ambulance cars, a Greek humanitarian convoy and refugee columns. No 'collateral damage' here either, just intentional targeting.

  JNA remained practically intact and retired from Kosmet in long, orderly columns, ready for inspection and cleanly shaved, causing disbelief in the oncoming UN troops; I should say they inflicted more damage to the NATO than the other way around by putting down that stealth bomber and those other few jets, many drones and scuds, also damaging many others (how many MIGs and tanks equal the price of one F117?). So, these huge public and private damages should be covered by compensations, and not the military damages.

  The year after the bombing my Italian business partners came to visit and were actually disappointed at how little Belgrade has been damaged! They expected to see it in ruins. And on our way to Novi Sad to visit another company, they spoke of those 3 bridges as being 'incidental hits, probably bombed unintentionally being close to some military structures'. When we got there and climbed onto the panoramic terrace of the ancient fortress overlooking the Danube, they understood: the bridges are in the middle of this sleepy old town, with civilian houses reaching water on both sides of the river, no military structures whatsoever (unless a public beach with volleyball nets could be considered as such), and the bridges were huge concrete structures, because the Danube there is huge, wider than in Budapest, and they could not have been demolished by one hit like that slender railway bridge with a train on it in the Grdelica gorge. Actually, the bridges in Novi Sad were bombed for days, repeatedly, particularly the one most recently built and biggest of the three on 3 April: they returned 4 times to finish it off. 'Incidental hits', indeed. Even then only the carriageway structure broke and fell into the water, the piers remained standing and the bridge is now being reconstructed. The military significance of those town bridges was nil and by demolishing them the NATO severed normal life in Novi Sad, cut water supply and telephone (ducting was running under the bridges) and the only purpose of that vandalism was intimidation. Could the NATO be sued for 'mental anguish' as well? Like Zeta-Jones & Douglas are suing that tabloid for their sufferings caused by looking ugly in those photos? See how useful justice could be.

  Joking aside, this is what the Milosevic 'trial' is all about: the NATO's handiwork has to be justified, that's all. Btw, the proceedings at the ICTY were halted first due to the prolonged weekend, then there was something called the 'UN holiday', the same date as the greatest Muslim feast, Kurban Bajram.
  
  Vera Martinovic
  Belgrade
  Yugoslavia

• Tuesday February 11, 2003 at 10:39 pm
  To Rita,

  As a Serb, I can stand in front of God with my honor and soul intact. Can you? I seriously doubt it. You are talking how Serbs should forget Kosovo battle. You could not possibly understand that Kosovo is our Golgota. That is the place where we sacrifice ourselves to God, where we choose between good and evil, where we look into eyes of the might (like NATO) and all lies and we say: "NO!" regardless of the consequences. You can take away our land, you can give it to Albanians, you can rape and torture us, but we shall endure. We know that on the other end there is someone that keeps the score. I pray for you because when you come to Him, I really would not like to be you.

  p.s. I thought that you were done with this site. Why are you back?
  
  Ana Dakic
  Serbia

• Tuesday February 11, 2003 at 11:02 pm
  DearRita,

  There are literal translation from a language into another one.

  Literal translation of Slobodan Miloševiæ from Serbo-Croation into English is as follows:

  Free Gentle F***

  Literal translation of yours from Slovene into English is:

  Ass Ass

  But I believe you are just

  AdoRubber and BeatFoul, in a word OneDearFoooool

  Ass Ass
  
  F** Up
  With
  Ewe

• Wednesday February 12, 2003 at 12:08 am
  Vera

  3 stealth fighter-bombers "shot down"

  1 shot down and destroyed over Yugoslavia
  1 hit and returned to base, unable to take part in any more action

  1 hit and made emergency landing, subsequently 'remanufactured'

  I think that there were 12 F-117's sent to fight the PVO. 3 out of 12 means that the PVO was able to cause a 25$ casulty rate among the most heavily protected aircraft USAF has.

  hmmmmmmmm

  Also, it has been suggested that USAF-RAF pilots killed more Albanians than JNA/VJ soldiers. Some 125-250 JNA/VJ were killed during the bombing (some KIA by KLA). USAF-RAF bombers killed at least 225 ALbanians.

  
  
  AP V
  NY
  NY

• Wednesday February 12, 2003 at 12:54 am
  J.P.,

  It was George Bush the 1st who recognised Croatia and Bosnia in 1992, and it was Bob Dole all the way back in 1986 who started the sabre rattling against Serbia over Kosovo.

  The U.S. Policy in the Balkans is bipartisan. There is enough blame for both sides of the aisle here.

  I would immagine that the real reason the Republicans didn't go after Clinton over the stuff in their Bosnia report was because they were just as guilty as he was.

  I think that the greatest hinderance to the proper functioning of democracy, and the greatest threat to liberty in the United States is the almost religious devotion that some people have to the two political parties and their leaders.

  The greatest document ever written is the United States Constitution. The only religious-type devotion any American citizen ought to have regarding his country is to the Constitution. There should be no devotion to any politician or to any party. Every action taken by the Government should be evaluated in the light of the constitution.

  The United States needs to return to the principles it was founded on. The United States was never intended to be what it has become.

  Read George Washington's farewell address, and you can see how much the United States has changed, and how far it has deviated from the principles it was founded on.
  
  Andy Wilcoxson
  Washington, United States

• Wednesday February 12, 2003 at 1:02 am
  Rita Rita

  You haven't answered my question: Who are the ethnic cleansers? Serbia proper with its 20 -30 ethnic groups, including hundreds of thousands of Albanians, or the ethnically pure states of Croatia, Bosnia-Hercegovina and (pretty much) Slovenia, or the "international protectorate" (AKA solen Serbian property) of ethnically pure Kosovo? Who are the ethnic cleansers, Rita Rita? Hmmmmm?
  
  Anna Pullinger
  California

• Wednesday February 12, 2003 at 2:03 am
  This is a good one:

  From Radio Free Europe: Are they connected to the Albanians in Kosovo for everything they write on Kosovo, Kosovo is spelled Kosova?

  The following is a couple of the quotes.

  The Albanian Sursoi, one of the Albanian Kosovo‘s best known journalist is calling for the bombing of Iraq. Here are a couple of quotes:

  “It was only the bombing of Kosovo that stopped the genocide and ultimately allowed the return of almost a million to their home.”

  “...since Saddam is like Milosevic we know something about them both. Only falling bombs will shake them from their hold on power....“ and blah, blah, blah.

  ------------- Genocide? There seem to be more Albanians in the Serbian Kosovo than ever before. In fact they have taken up so much space that one day ago they were saying that non Albanians could not return due to the lack of space and the Albanian only language. Does this man know that we do know the difference between genocide and running to the Macedonian border in a Mercedes?

  How much you wanna bet this guy was doing a good job of b---Kissing?

  Why were the Muslims so concerned about these people when all they care about are themselves? Even when it comes to their own if someone disagrees with the other it is bang, bang, solong.....

  
  
  Kathryn Love
  SJC
  USA

• Wednesday February 12, 2003 at 2:13 am
  Rita, Rita, is someone who has been on the SUC forum during the 1999 bombing of Kosovo and up until the present time. She likes to provoke. Right now she has taken a leave form SUC.It is best to ignore her. She like the attention and never gives up. She goes by many different names. Sometimes she professes to be a Croat sometimes she is married to one, but she very well could be Albanian. She lives in the USA and is much too old to be so filled with hate. You are wasting your time with this one.

  By now I am very familiar with her writings. Same garbage.

  
  
  Kathryn Love
  SJC
  USA

• Wednesday February 12, 2003 at 2:52 am
  Pythagoras, the problem with the US laws is that they can be bent. The US is going to war, and no-one even considers declaring war on Iraq. These laws have fallen into desuetude.

  The other problem with such intra-US laws is the procedure. Remember how ineffective Clinton's impeachment was? Anything that can be made party politics, will be.

  And this party-political dimension makes it unlikely that the Americans will ever proceed to prosecuting war criminals on their own. This discussion has demonstrated that even these decent Americans care more about their own party than the American responsibility as a whole.

  If the Chinese made a deal with the US, one has to find the document. Without it, we are at a dead-end. Maybe our friends on the "Pacific Rim" could be of help. I think the University of British Columbia and Stanford, for instance, have specialized in Chinese law. Without such expertise we will never find out.

  And while you are at it, would you check what happened to the Yamashita conviction by the Tokyo Tribunal? It has been pointed out in this discussion months ago that Yamashita was wrongly held responsible on account of "command responsibility", because the Americans were withholding information that proved Yamashita innocent. Those facts have now come to light after the secret documents were opened after 50 years. Did Yamashita's family seek compensation?

  The outcome of the Yamashita case would undermine the culture of finality that prevails in the tribunal, which is why there isn't even a proper appellate body. Maybe it would even undermine the doctrine of "command responsibility," which has been called by Yamashita's name until now. It might also undermine the rules of procedure and evidence in ICTY.

  The UN may be a goner, and an US-led world will be a reality. Maybe the UN is really outdated. But even then, you need some law and order. It is easy for the Americans say that the ICJ is a political organ and so is the ICC. Maybe they are. But it is not the organ that matters. It is the action taken. The compensation should still be paid. The American war criminals would still have to be punished. It would even be preferable that the Americans would do this on their own initiative. We understand that the Americans are in a somewhat special position in modern world. But you need justice. Otherwise you need to put the question: what is the point in this new world order?

  Such one-eyed justice as we are seeing now only starts a vicious circle. Nothing illustrates this better than the Clinton impeachment. Thanks to party politics, Clinton survived it (here you see that it is not necessarily a good thing to be "democratically elected"). However, in a short time Milosevic got indicted. About a month later, Yeltsin was under threat of impeachment too. Call me paranoid, but that is an awful lot of impeachments (indictments included) in a short time. It has been said that the impeachment of Clinton had nothing to do with the bombing, but I still maintain that it had everything to do with it.
  
  Jari Nousiainen
  Finland

• Wednesday February 12, 2003 at 3:44 am
  

  The court trial fesumes:

  Prosecutor Nice (NATO) warns the court he as problems getting witnesses and then he asks and gets his Private Session. No reason stated.

  I am about to give up in trying to follow a secret trial. Judge May you're a fart!
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Conn., USA

• Wednesday February 12, 2003 at 4:36 am
  Ryan,

  we are entirely in agreement. The reason I included it is that knowing that it was a quote from Pavelic adds to the value of the quote. The number of times I have seen or heard journalists quoting various persons from the Balkans and misunderstanding its' root through their own ignorance of Balkan history, are legion.

  I think that Tudjman was trying to be clever (a la David Irving) in response to the things that were said about him (inc. his crappy and boring revisionist book, "Wastelands, The Historical Truth"), but it backfired on him badly, exposing exactly what he was trying to hide.

  The Ustasa record on Jews really stood head and shoulders above the rest of World War II Balkans:

  Tenth Circle of Hell

  Those who invited him to the opening of the Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington will have to live with the shame for the rest of their lives...
  
  Alexei Gorbulski
  Brussels
  Belgium (Here comes the rain again)

• Wednesday February 12, 2003 at 4:47 am
  Gogol, I checked the Rules of Procedure, and the only context the word "private" is used is to describe the deliberation by the judges. It is awfully nice to let the prosecutor to attend such deliberations well in advance, so any misunderstanding between the prosecutor and the judges is ruled out.

  This word "private" is pretty evocative. It sounds like the opposite of "public", which is the word used to describe the trial as a whole.

  The tribunal has come out with a new judicial supplement. Check out the format in their homepage. The new layout exudes youthfulness.

  The newest amendments to the Rules of Procedure concern "part-heard" cases and stuff like that. What the hell are those?

  I also noticed the definitions in Art. 2, and indeed the word "States" means UN member states as well as non-member states and entities of Bosnia. This is important for the "concurrent jurisdiction".
  
  Jari Nousiainen
  Finland

• Wednesday February 12, 2003 at 4:51 am
  Can someone please advise how we protest against these so called "private sessions" even with clearly identified witnesses?

  This Star Chamber approach to international justice is just unbelievable! What are they so desperate to hide if the witness him/herself has the courage to appear in public under his/her own name?

  Who is running the show here ... Nice or May? Get a spine Mr May and stop this farce of private sessions. You're leaving a huge slime trail behind you.
  
  David
  Australia

• Wednesday February 12, 2003 at 4:53 am
  These "part-heard cases" are mentioned in Rule 15 bis, if you are interested.

  I just noticed that Rule 15 (B) allows any party to request the disqualification of a judge due to a conflict of interests. Has Milosevic tried this?
  
  J N
  Finland

• Wednesday February 12, 2003 at 5:09 am
  

  Jari,

  It seems some agreement exist here between the judges and the prosecution since Nice (NATO) precisely makes the distinction, today on two occasions thus far, between private and close sessions, sometimes just for paragraph. The net result is that it is impossible to make sense of the testimony given. The judges are asked permission for going into close sessions, but it is always granted without asking why. What an odd procedure. I am also certain the whole idea of giving every two weeks a four day weekend to Mr. Milosevic is more related to keep the length of the trial long without the prosecutor having to show much for its case.
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Conn., USA

• Wednesday February 12, 2003 at 5:12 am
  Gogol. Agreed with the "health" pretext. Remember how Milosevic complained that during his latest "sick leave" he was given 40,000 new pages new material by the prosecution? Read and rest.
  
  Jari Nousiainen
  Finland

• Wednesday February 12, 2003 at 5:18 am
  

  This is a good one, a reason under diqualification of judges:

  (C) The Judge of the Trial Chamber who reviews an indictment against an accused, pursuant to Article 19 of the Statute and Rules 47 or 61, shall not be disqualified for sitting as a member of the Trial Chamber for the trial of that accused. Such a Judge shall also not be disqualified for sitting as a member of the Appeals Chamber, or as a member of a bench of three Judges appointed pursuant to Rules 65 (D) or 72 (E), to hear any appeal in that case.

  
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Conn., USA

• Wednesday February 12, 2003 at 5:20 am
  By the way, yesterday's B92 headlines made pretty interesting reading. One headline said that Del Ponte is to visit Belgrade without indictment (well, that is a bit of news!), another said Del Ponte was to bring the Seselj indictment.

  Was Seselj one of those three people the US requested so the tribunal could be closed down? It is funny that Del Ponte wasn't appointed the new ICC prosecutor, considering how many people she has indicted.
  
  J N
  Finland

• Wednesday February 12, 2003 at 5:28 am
  

  Seselj indictment, if there is one, has to do with keeping him out of the failed (twice) elections in Serbia.

  I can only guess what effect the current preparations for war against Iraq is having in public opinion in the region, the interest in Western democratic ways must be so intense the media cares not to report it. Here in the colonies, the Balkans has eclipsed away.
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Conn., USA

• Wednesday February 12, 2003 at 5:34 am
  Is there need to keep Seselj out of the elections, now that Yugoslavia doesn't exist? Weren't latest elections for the Yugoslav presidency? Obviously the situation got so embarrassing that they had to demolish the federal republic.

  Well, the B92 news also reported that the US "still insists on The Hague," so I guess the Yugoslavs still have some lessons to learn in how to run a democratic country.

  Gotta go.
  
  J N
  Finland

• Wednesday February 12, 2003 at 5:43 am
  

  Destroying the federation, federal Yugoslavia has to do, in my humble opinion, with removing the possiblity of having a living example of a succesful past reminding the non viable states that the UNION is the only way to the future.

  Bez sloge nerna slobode. (Without union there is no liberty)
  
  G C
  Conn., USA

• Wednesday February 12, 2003 at 8:45 am
  David asked what one can do to protest against the private sessions.

  As has been suggested, the Milosevic trial is just begging for "mistrial". It is only a matter of time when the mistrial will be declared.

  On the other hand, it won't be declared as long as the US "insists on The Hague," which in turn constitutes a legal fact (to put it that way). The Americans would be in trouble, if ony they would admit that it is they that are out of touch with reality.

  The prosecution is now cooperating with the judges in non-existent procedures like "private sessions". But what else to expect from a trial chamber which is hearing tapes that haven't even been declared admissible and orders closed sessions to hear witnesses about faked tapes "to protect the interests of justice".

  If May and Nice are the pinnacle of the British legal profession, it is no wonder the British lost the empire.

  The question is not whether the mistrial will be declared, the question is not even when it will be declared. The question is whether they will charge the detainees for bed and breakfast when that happens.
  
  Jari Nousiainen
  Finland

• Wednesday February 12, 2003 at 9:00 am
  http://jang.com.pk/thenews/feb2003-daily/12-02-2003/world/w4 here we go again
  
  vesa v.
  france

• Wednesday February 12, 2003 at 10:38 am
  Hey, guess what guys....Pavelic was Croatian..... He was also an extremely affected person....in the head.....so were his followers He was very, very bad news for Serbs...(a gross understatement) Hey, guess what guys....Tito was Croatian..... He was also a Yugoslav.... he was very, very bad news for many Croatians (a gross understatement) was he also bad news for Serbs?
  
  Ivan Kokotovic
  sydney
  australia

• Wednesday February 12, 2003 at 11:05 am
  Pero, Pero, Pero...... enough with the cro-bashing so you think.......you might know that you are better than croats....... but seriously.......Croatia's history can be ridiculed forever, and the only people to obtain satisfaction will be yourself, and a relative handful of people who still find it their duty to their people to get all worked up about it. basically, what i mean is......its not really constructive......and people in the west do not really care about the balkans...... they couldn't give a rats-arse if it was croats/muslims/serbs who were being discriminated against, and overall they find it difficult to discern the difference between these peoples. so.....you can if you wish, continue to acknowledge the horrid actions of the ustasa (not that they should be hidden), however, quite frankly, after sept. 11, most people in the west are more worried about their own safety, and are beyond being aghast at any previous atrocities........definately this is the case in Australia following the Bali bombing, -just one final......quite important point. -I have no doubt that a large section of the croat population still hold pavelic in high regard (most probably an overwhelming majority) i would say that most of these people, although not ignorant to the facts, somehow see some justification for the horrifying acts of WWII and beyond..... -thus; i put it to you, that by you keeping on reminding they of these events..... rather than create a self-revulsion, instead fill them with nationalistic pride (such as the nazi salutes after the handball team won, which quite honestly sickens me as a person with croat heritage) which results in a higher likelihood of heated exchanges, which i pray can be left behind.. -thus i issue you with a challenge Pero.......if you are better than these croats......to join the more progressive croats and serbs (such as vedran) throughout the world, who look forward, toward a peaceful future.. you can start doing this by neglecting to mention WWII....... - i fear your response will be swift and all too balkan.....and regrettably predictable.
  
  Ivan Kokotovic
  sydney
  australia

• Wednesday February 12, 2003 at 11:16 am
  To Ana.... you can stand before god..... just don't refer to Islam as evil..... i apologise if in fact this is not what you meant.....but if the battle of Kosovo was the battle of good vs evil...... well it just shows that their might not ever be a level headed approach to the real questions for the establishment of peace.........which is in fact the measure of whether good has really conquered evil...
  
  Ivan Kokotovic
  sydney
  australia

• Wednesday February 12, 2003 at 12:27 pm
  

  The Wall Street Journal says today Saddam Hussein may be tried in a court similar to the one in Sierra Leone. This article is full of little details about who founds, who says and who is in charge and for what purpose. Please read it and if you may so prefer I can email you my own version just for the asking.

  gogolc@hotmail.com
  
  G C
  Conn., USA

• Wednesday February 12, 2003 at 12:38 pm
  Warmonger Blair’s Kosovo-style lies to fail in Iraq? First it was because of their association with al-Qaeda, next it was because of their weapons of mass destruction, now it is because of their non-compliance with the weapons inspectors. Come Friday, and Hans Blix reports that the inspection is going satisfactorily, what’s the betting there will be some new excuse for the Anglo/US invasion of Iraq or maybe they’ll just GO without one? Jari’s recent analysis on imperial expansion sums up the situation neatly. We’ve been here before with Nato’s attack on Kosovo. Many Nato leaders were reluctantly press ganged into the gang rape of Serbia by similar trickery: Warmonger “Trust-me” Tony serving as the Great Enabler twisting and twisting arms on behalf of the Anglo/US alliance wherever he went. Albright’s criminally irresponsible war was enabled by Blair and empowered - on occasion reluctantly - by Clinton. As the ploy seems to fail this time the claims become evermore absurd. Who seriously believes that Iraq is about to attack Turkey? Turkey, a member of Nato, has a population three times that of Iraq. To attack Turkey Iraqi forces would first have to fight there way through the relatively autonomous Kurds in the North of Iraq protected by the Anglo/US patrolled no-fly zone. No: the Anglo/US request for Nato support in Turkey is to protect its own invasion forces stationed there and cement the lie that Iraq is a threat to Nato security. This is the same mind boggling ‘blame the victim’ syndrome that was used over Kosovo. This is another attempt by Anglo/US aggressors to bamboozle the rest of Nato into helping them in their dirty work once more. Remember the lies about Kosovo which dragged Nato into that dirty little affair: ‘The Serbs were attacking the poor Kosovars!’ In reality Albanians were invading Serbia with Anglo/US backing including Mujahedin and al-Qaeda. Remember the bogus claims of genocide: still being made? Remember the cause was to prevent ethnic cleansing. “Trust-me” Tony never mentions ethnic cleansing now that Kosovo’s minorities have been wiped out. This time some of Nato’s leaders, at least in France, Germany and Belgium have asked for a pause in this rush to war and insist on awaiting the inspectors report before the need for military action is discussed. Consequently the bullying insults are flying again as this brake is applied to the Anglo/US aggressors. This only serves to make the point: bullying not reason is the name of ‘the game is over’. We all know that Nato would act in concert if Turkey was really under threat from Iraq. The Anglo/US pretence is transparent. Recall Blair’s excuses for bombing the TV Station in Belgrade: Blair claimed this was because “Dictator” Milosevic had control over the broadcast media. This is Blair’s democracy: The BBC, which is virtually owned by Blair certainly to the extent that he has New Labour placemen in the three key positions, has demanded that its senior staff including journalists and editors do not take part in Saturday’s demonstration against the intended war upon Iraq without a second specific UN mandate. More than 90% of the British population take this view. Blair’s Theatre of the Absurd put on its latest Farce yesterday when the famous Campbell spin machine went into overdrive: Heathrow airport was occupied by some 1,500 troops and police with armoured vehicles to counter a threat of al-Qaeda terror - sources not revealed as “Trust-me” Tony “protects his sources” as he did over the fraudulent Iraqi Dossier last week. It is no coincidence that in three days time, on Saturday, a huge public demonstration against the impending attack upon Iraq, without UN sanction, is to take place in London. However London’s second major international airport Gatwick, just a score of miles away is not protected by armoured troops and massive police presence! Why is Gatwick not being protected with the same heavy army and police presence? If you were a terrorist planning to rocket a plane would you not now switch your attention to Gatwick - supposing Gatwick was not always your intended but misinformed target? If you were a sensible Prime Minister would you not keep very, very quiet about your security arrangements? On the other hand if you were indulging in media manipulation to drum up support among a sceptical electorate for your war on Iraq … The armoured ring around Heathrow is so obviously a show for public consumption. Another disingenuous posture is Blair’s claim that there is no alternative to war on Iraq. North Korea is manifestly a hugely more dangerous dictatorship. In contrast to Iraq’s puny threat North Korea actually trades in weapons of mass destruction has fissile material and long-range missiles. North Korea is a clear source for terrorist weapons of mass destruction. But Blair does not intend to attack North Korea that has borders with China and Russia, both nuclear powers. So another of Blair’s lies is exposed yet again: these problems can be dealt with by diplomatic means alone. There is no limit to the deception and duplicity of “Trust-me” Tony. Joke of the week: Secretary Powell claims that Bin Laden has convinced him that al-Qaeda is in partnership with Iraq. Bin Laden’s declared purpose is Jihad upon the infidels of the West: there is at present no better way for him to further his cause. Nobody with an IQ greater than 80 can fail to see the treacherous path Bin Laden is lighting for the infidels in their drive to war against Iraq. One very worrying alternative thought in this Orwellian, Kafkaesque and duplicitous nightmare world of Blair’s intended Bush war: Suppose Bin Laden and al-Qaeda have made it up again behind the scenes with the Anglo/US alliance. Suppose all are now cooperating again over Iraq as they did in Bosnia, Kosovo and Macedonia! In Kosovo al-Qaeda was Blair’s friend now it is a reason for slaughtering tens of thousands of innocent Iraq women and children: or is it? Hundreds if not thousands of al-Qaeda trained operatives have been allowed back into Britain after fighting against Anglo/US forces in Afghanistan: ARRRRRRRRRGH! PS Now that al-Qaeda is - possibly - our of favour again when will del Ponte, after numerous promises, indict the leaders of the erstwhile KLA for the horrific crimes committed in Kosovo: especially the mutilations practised by the Mujahedin and al-Qaeda elements they employed in Kosovo?
  
  Peter Taylor
  Herts/UK

• Wednesday February 12, 2003 at 12:56 pm
  

  From today's trial session:

  amici curiae Tapuskovic: "Your honours, this document introduced by the prosecutor has no date, no heading, no auth . . ."

  Judge May (NATO): "Yes, it is for us to weight, we . . . will decide what value it has..."

  I think they should have blank pages introduced as evidence and decide later how important they are, in the mean time it makes the trial go forward .
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Conn., USA

• Wednesday February 12, 2003 at 1:01 pm
  Why doesn't Tapuskovic just shut up?
  
  Jari Nousiainen
  Finland

• Wednesday February 12, 2003 at 2:05 pm
  Ivan,

  Yes, Tito was bad for Serbs. The whole Kosovo debacle is his fault.
  
  Anna Pullinger
  California

• Wednesday February 12, 2003 at 2:16 pm
  Ivan,

  Furthermore, the one ethnic group in the former Yugoslavia on which you CANNOT blame the "balkanization" that occured there is the Serbs. They are the one group that believed in Yugoslav unity and considered themselves Yugoslavs first, and Serbs second. The same cannot be said for the other groups that put their individual ethnicity ahead of being Yugoslavs and thereby created the climate that was so easily exploited by the West when it decided that the dismemberment of Yugoslavia was needed after the fall of Communism in Russia.
  
  Anna Pullinger
  California

• Wednesday February 12, 2003 at 2:16 pm
  ...or, rather, in the Soviet Union.
  
  Anna Pullinger
  California

• Wednesday February 12, 2003 at 2:30 pm
  J.N.

  And while you are at it, would you check what happened to the Yamashita conviction by the Tokyo Tribunal? It has been pointed out in this discussion months ago that Yamashita was wrongly held responsible on account of "command responsibility", because the Americans were withholding information that proved Yamashita innocent. Those facts have now come to light after the secret documents were opened after 50 years.

  Please elaborate.........Yamashita is the most relevant case for command responsibility vis a vie Clinton, Gen Jackson, Gen. Clark, and the KLA/KPC

  thanks !
  
  AP V
  NY
  NY

• Wednesday February 12, 2003 at 3:47 pm
  Moderator please split the page up - we dont have digital telephone exchanges in my part of town...
  
  E Obradovic
  Beo

• Wednesday February 12, 2003 at 4:02 pm
  Dear Ivan,

  Let me tell you Serbian point of view (actually mine, but I can say that many feel that way). I feel very heart. I lived in Yugoslavia and I had a wonderful time. My first boyfriend was a Croatian. I can still remember Supetar on Brach and some kind man offering me a vine and asking me (begging) to sing for him “ Oj Moravo”. He served army (JNA) in Cacak where I am from and he had a wonderful time. He loved people there and he felt like being home.

  What I feel angry and heart about is that Croatia did NOTHING to reassure Serbs living there that 1941 would not happen again. Do you think that actually anybody normal in Serbia wanted to go to war (with exception of Arkan and other lunatics and criminals)? Do you really think anybody cared that you are going to put Croatia on map? We don’t give a s…, just like we don’t give a s… if Montenegro goes away or not. What we did care about is recognition. Instead of burning down a holiday house of late actor Mija Aleksic and many other “incidents” prior to war, why didn’t Croatia reassured its Serbian citizen that they shall have all rights. I other words: not a single Croatian from Serbia lost their jobs because they are Croatian. That is not what happened with Serbs in Croatia.

  If Tudjman went to Jasenovac and said “A million Serbs died here. I will do anything in my power to ensure that never happens again!”, Serbs would say “All the best Croatia, it was fun while it lasted”. And we would still go to Croatian See for holidays. I feel that we Serbs are for you Croatian a lower race. I feel that we Serbs gave everything to Yugoslavia, and that on the other hand, for Croatia, Yugoslavia was something that can be thrown down and used as needed. I feel that Croatia have no respect understanding or tolerance for anybody else but Croatia. And that makes me sad.
  
  Ana Dakic
  Serbia

• Wednesday February 12, 2003 at 4:37 pm
  Mr. Kokotovic,

  I find your post rather confusing.

  Here is the excerpt:

  “most of these people, although not ignorant to the facts, somehow see some justification for the horrifying acts of WWII and beyond..... -thus; i put it to you, that by you keeping on reminding they of these events..... rather than create a self-revulsion, instead fill them with nationalistic pride”

  Are you suggesting that talking about Ustashe crimes will fill the majority of Croatians with nationalistic pride?
  
  D. Jovanovic
  USA

• Wednesday February 12, 2003 at 4:39 pm
  As a child on visits to Yugoslavia, I was never asked in Serbia whether I am a Serb. But in Slovenia and Croatia I would be asked, "So...are you Slovenian (or Croation, depending on where we were) or Serbian?" And upon answering "Serbian," I would be met with the reply, "Oh, too bad." On holiday in Dubrovnik, if you asked for HLEB (Serbian for bread) at a bakery, instead of KRUH (Croatian for bread), you would be derided and chided. So, yes, no question that for a lot of them Serbs are a lower race.
  
  Anna Pullinger
  California

• Wednesday February 12, 2003 at 4:42 pm
  Mr. Kokotovic,

  Are you further suggesting that is better to forget, let bygones be bygones?.

  .....if you are better than these croats......to join the more progressive croats and serbs (such as vedran) throughout the world, who look forward, toward a peaceful future.. you can start doing this by neglecting to mention WWII.......

  Have you tried the same suggestion on some of your Jewish friends
  
  D. Jovanovic
  USA

• Wednesday February 12, 2003 at 4:49 pm
  

  Gogol, as you are pointing out this trial is going down the drainage lower and lower, every day. Mr. May have taken the role of a goalie. The other two Occupied and Colonial, it looks that they are becoming irrelevant The trial of so called "professional" judges is turning into court of judges for hire. They can correct anything that prosecution does not do properly. Use information from the court documents that were not cross-examined, but are on the pile for voluntary, private and secretive examination by the judges. Use other evidence that was never presented in the court and cross-examined, but is accepted into pile of evidence. Videos that have not looked convincing when presented in the court, but described by the prosecution as vital and containing incriminating information if judges are just kind enough to watch them privately during overtime hours. I am wandering if the judges are paid for their overtime work in private or it comes with the job description for the "professional" judges for hire. It looks that this trial and sentence would be decided on the testimony provided in secret and overtime secretive work of the dishonorable judges for hire and acceptance of "incriminating documents" without a date and the author. I taught that there are some legal standards for the quality of the evidence to be determined and that judges are not allowed to make changes in the dictionaries or legal definitions, like what is legally considered to be genocide.

  This is indeed the historical trial of the century.
  
  Pera Bora
  Ottawa
  Canada

• Wednesday February 12, 2003 at 4:51 pm
  HTML correction.
  
  Pera Bora
  Ottawa
  Canada

• Wednesday February 12, 2003 at 4:52 pm
  Once more.
  
  Pera Bora
  Ottawa
  Canada

• Wednesday February 12, 2003 at 5:19 pm
  URL: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2751207.stm The pointed to article tries in vain to prove that the trial against Mr. Milosevic is fair and progressing well. Check for your self.
  
  Pera Bora
  Ottawa
  Canada

• Wednesday February 12, 2003 at 5:24 pm
  http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2751207.stm

  The URL correction for the above BBC article.

  
  
  Pera Bora
  Ottawa
  Canada

• Wednesday February 12, 2003 at 7:36 pm
  I was bitterly joking about the highly unlikely law suits in my last post, when lo and behold, here's the first one against a lying witness in The Hague: Vasilije Mijovic is suing General Aleksandar Vasiljevic, currently testifying against Milosevic, for lying about him at the witness stand on 6 February 2003. Mijovic is a police officer alleged by Vasiljevic to have headed a special police unit involved in armed clashes in Baranja, CRO in 1991. A libel complaint has been filed with the Second Belgrade Municipal Court by the Mijovic's lawyer today. This is good. More of the same should be expected.

  The transcripts for the 6 February are available (check at the link that Gogol gave Tuesday, Feb. 11 at 8:16 pm). Go to the page 15790, line 4: there was something there that has been deleted [redacted]. Then Vasiljevic proceeds with repeating 'he told me…as far as he knew…the security sector where he was…as far as he knew… he then told me…' (from line 5 to 20). Who is the mysterious he? Somebody whose name was 'redacted'? Why? Why is Vasiljevic testifying at all, and not he himself, when almost all that Vasiljevic had to say on the topic are the stories told him by that person called he?

  Then, in the lines 22 to 25, there comes the basis for that libel suit against Vasiljevic: 'As far as I can recall, it was a special purpose police unit commanded by Vasilije Mijovic. That was another unit. And this unit operated later on in the Baranja area, and it had a camp on a farm near Sombor. That's what I can remember from that period.' And that is all the precision this important witness can provide on one of the topics - volunteers. Truly disappointing, hearsay from Belgrade taverns and market-places could offer more. Yet, the man mentioned so vaguely, Mijovic, is pressing charges. The stick has two ends and words are expensive, the 'witnesses' have to be made aware of that.

  Today Vasiljevic started to speak about Kosovo and will continue tomorrow. So far, this is even more vague than what he said re CRO and B&H. But, let's wait and see, perhaps he will finally say something that is not a common knowledge, third-hand hearsay or a BBC report (yes, Vasiljevic was asked to give some details about the role of Seselj, and he spoke about Seselj's interview, would you believe). And the man was supposedly at the source of all relevant info, being the top of the Army Intelligence?!
  
  Vera Martinovic
  Belgrade
  Yugoslavia

• Wednesday February 12, 2003 at 7:38 pm
  Islam & Peace

  Muslim propagandists are nowadays making extraordinary efforts to change the image of Islam by reintroducing it to the Western society as a religion that calls for peace and rejects violence. One of the new theories that they are trying to sell is that the name of their religion Islam implies the meaning of ‘Peace’, which in Arabic is Salam. The grounds for their theory is that both words are derived from the same root in the Arabic language!

  While it may be possible to deceive those who do not speak Arabic or those who do not know much about Islam, propaganda like this does not fool someone who knows the Arabic language and the teaching of Islam, a religion that was established by violence and still believes in violence as a principal and as a way of life. The relationships between Muslims themselves and between them and all other nations have always been based on terror and still is. Islam and Salam are two incongruous words that share no common ground either in name or in substance.

  In order to find the meaning of a certain word in the Arabic dictionary, it is essential to search for the three letter infinitive verb which is called the root. Many words can be derived from the same root, but they don't necessarily have to have any similarity in their meaning. The word Islam, which means ‘submission’, is derived from the infinitive Salama. So is the word Salam which means ‘peace’ and so is the verb Salima which means ‘to be saved or to escape from danger’. One of the derivations of the infinitive Salama means ‘the stinging of a snake’ or ‘The tanning of the leather’. Hence, if the word Islam has something to do with the word Salam i.e. ‘Peace’, does that also mean that it must be related to the ‘stinging of the snake’ or ‘tanning the leather’?

  Muhammad used to send letters to the kings and leaders of the surrounding countries and tribes, inviting them to surrender to his authority and to believe in him as the messenger of Allah. He always ended his letters with the following two words: "Aslem, Taslam!". Although these two words are derived from the same infinitive Salama which is the root of Salam, i.e. ‘Peace’, neither one of them implies the meaning of ‘peace’. The sentence means ‘surrender and you will be safe’, or in other words, ‘surrender or face death’. So where is the meaning of ‘Peace’ in such a religion that threatens to kill other people if they don't submit to it?

  On the other hand, the Qur'an and other Islamic books like Al-Hadith and Al-Sira, i.e. the life of Muhammad, are full of evidence which proves that had it not been for violence, Islam wouldn't have existed or wouldn't have survived until today. A good example to mention would be The Wars Of Al-Riddah, i.e. ‘the wars against the apostates’, that began immediately after the death of Muhammad. Feeling relieved by the disappearance of the strong fearful leader Muhammad, the tribes which have been forced to embrace Islam, revolted and began, one after another, to renegade and to refuse paying the taxes imposed on them by the Prophet's government. In response to the revolution, the first Caliph, Abu-Bakr, ordered his army to fight the apostates. It took him almost two years of fighting to force the tribes back into the fold of Islam. These wars were not ordered only by the first Caliph, but they were also instructed by Allah and his messenger Muhammad. The Qur'an states clearly that those who go back from Islam are to be punished by death: "But if they turn renegades seize them and slay them wherever ye find them and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks. Al-Nisaa 4:89." Muhammad also said, as narrated by Al-Bukhari, "If somebody - a Muslim - discards his religion, kill him."

  The Qur'an not only ordered the killing of those who embraced Islam and afterwards decided to renegade, but also commanded the followers to fight all nations until they either believe in it, pay the Jizya or face death:

  "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the last day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and his apostle nor acknowledge the religion of truth of the people of the Book (the Jews and the Christians) until they pay the Jizya with willing submission and feel themselves subdued. Surat At-Tauba 9:29" And in the same Sura, verse 5, the Qur'an also states: "Fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem ..." Now doesn't the image of Islam as a religion of peace sound, after all, a little bit hard to believe? ...

  http://answering-islam.org/Hoaxes/salamislam.html
  
  Ana Dakic
  Serbia

• Wednesday February 12, 2003 at 8:03 pm
  Thanks, Jari. As you thoroughly analyse, there is apparently not much hope for a US court ruling acknowledging, or even hinting, that the embassy bombing was deliberate. I am also not optimistic about a Chinese initiative, because China received and, as I recall, formally accepted reparations from the Clinton administration. It also reciprocated by reimbursing the US for damage inflicted on a US consulate during the riots triggered by the embassy bombing. Whether China posesses other relevant legal documents or not, nothing will be initiated on its behalf as long as it does not have the political will to sue.

  It seems to me that there are only 2 hopes for reviving the issue, neither of which is of legal nature per se: one possibility is a spontaneous journalistic initiative. It would, however, have to be more persistent than the one of the Observer and a few others in 1999. The other is a public statement by one or more of the NATO officials who knew the location of the embassy and can thus expose the Clinton administration's lie. A political widening of the current NATO split will increase that possibility.
  
  Pythagoras Crotoniatis
  Greece

• Wednesday February 12, 2003 at 8:28 pm
  
  
  HTML Correction
  Hopefully

• Wednesday February 12, 2003 at 9:36 pm
  Ivane:

  It is not about ridiculing Croat history. It is about Milosevic trial and future.

  I did not put a link to WWII to bash Croats - that link was there to show a background and forces to destroy Yugoslavia, and continuous link between Pavelic, Vatikan, looted Serbian money and some of the US politicians. US in fact ridiculed Croats and the whole Europe, as you can see from my previous post.
  I never thought that Croatians started war in Yugoslavia. I always thought that, somebody from abroad (German and US) used large majority of Croatian emigrants and dissidents home in Croatia to start a war.

  You see; when Pavelic proclaimed independent state he has given the whole Adriatic see to Italians. Even tough King Alexandar brought with the Serbian blood Dalmatia to Croatia Croats never admitted that. Croatia only and only during 1 and 2 Yugoslavia had full control over Adriatic sea. (If you don’t know that Dalmatia was promised to Italy in 1915 among UK, US and Italy for Italians turnover to ally side -It became a part of Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenians just because of the Serbian role in WWl )

  Two weeks ago it was Croatian government debating on the issue of the selling “Suncani Hvar” (Sunny Hvar). Racan said something in these lines: “No matter what, and whatever we decide here; this question is to be answered” - Independent state? And who is on Brac, Vis, Lora etc.

  That shows that somebody else wanted to take these and Croatia as independent state was just milestone in taking whatever they wanted and making a cheap labor and destroying a modern technology (including implementation of a Trojan horse in EU). These who wanted it; they don’t care for justice. But Croatians should.

  As for Tito and Serbs you must be under huge influence, that Tito was a Yugoslavian. He started declare himself as Croatian in 1962. “What he has done good for Serbs:”
  Civil war in Serbia among Draza Mihajlovic’s Cetnicks and partisans? :”
  The same thing in Bosnia; :”
  Forming partisans Supreme command in 1941 on Kordun.
  Which provoked operations Weis1, 2 and three.
  Sending all young people what they could mobilize from Serbia on “Sremski Front”
  Sending people from Banija and Kordun to fight for Trieste in front lines without guns.(5000 of them lost their lives)
  Proclaiming Macedonia;
  Proclaiming Muslim religion as nation;
  Forming “Goli otok” and sending there 250,000 Serbs and Montenegrins.
  Forbidding Serbs who were expelled from Kosovo during WWII to return back after war.
  Displacing Serbs from Croatia to Vojvodina.
  Taking away Orthodox Church property and giving it to Albanians. (mostly immigrants from Albania etc
  

  Ivane when it comes to a real life it looks like this.
  One of the oldest Serbian family of 3 brothers and 3 sisters with their parents lived before WWII in Croatia. Each had its own house and land, sisters were married too.
  When WWII erupted one of the brothers who was fairly rich was taken first by Ustashe to and killed. He left son and a daughter behind. Son left country. All his property was taken away first by Ustashe later nationalized by partisans.
  Another brother lived as a farmer, a month later Ustashe came and slit his throat and set fire on a house. His only son left home and went to forest.
  Third brother hides, but ustashe came and set fire on his house. (a wife took other kids and went to her brother later they went to forest coming rarely home. They lived so until 1945). He successfully hides himself until 1943. when he was taken by Ustashe and never came back. He left behind wife, 5 sons and two daughters.
  Two of the older sons left home and went to forest where joining others (later become partisans). One of them was wounded, later found in a hospital and killed by ustashe. The other one died in a battle with Germans. Nobody knows for their graves.
  In 1943 there were chetniks coming to mobilize the oldest son of the remaining three, he was hiding in the forest. His mother under the threat of life didn’t agree that he goes with them, however they took their belongings including one cow who was the only source of food for them, so he did not join chetnicks.
  In 1944 he was mobilized by partisans and stayed there for 3 years. His brother only 14 years old took care of family and in 1945 built his first house from mud. .
  This is were one of the most richest Serbian family in Croatia ended up after war. The only remaining male adult of the family brother of the wife was mobilized by partisans and send on Trieste where he died in the first row (Since he did not join partisans on time)
  They started life after war. They had a neighbor who would help them. While working bare foot, second son made firewood and bought a cow. They raised two bulls, which were lost; drawn in the water while doing “voluntary” job for the society.
  Shortly after that the neighbor was taken to “Goli otok” for seven years.
  Three sisters, whom I mention on the beginning, had their own families. One was taken to Concentration camp, never came back. The other one had two sons. One died as partisan in a battle with ustashe. The other one survived and died naturally (the first who died naturally). He had two sons - one was killed by ZNG in last war his house looted and razed. The other one was in column in 1995. His house looted and razed
  Third left abroad after war. .
  I noticed if I continue with the remaining kids after war WWll who founded their families (Three married Croatians) and had their kids I would need a book. However there was more then 15 families as grandchildren of above mentioning 3 brothers, and sisters who had their houses, apartments, business etc. All of that was looted and taken away by new Croatian government, and nobody stayed there. Only one stayed in Krajina until 1995, Others left with no intention to fight against Croatian forces. And as far as I know no one of them evercommitted even the smallest crime nationally based.
  The point here is Ivane this justice is going to make one (who was in the column in 1995) who is now in Serbia to pay reparations. Are they going to estimate all of the property and lives that were taken from him his family and friend to make him to pay for property that he is legally owner or inheritor?
  This story does not have names since it could be universal for one part of the ex Yugoslavia.
  Does Carla really know what she is doing?
  Ivane some people read about history from books, some of the other’s lives are affected by it.
  For us to judge we need to know preceding acts as well as outcome. Otherwise we would not know how to make justifiable decisions.

  You see when I go shopping I pay for what I take. Nobody takes my coat destroy it and forces me to pay for it. Any customer service does not want that justice, is simple as that however customer service representative has to know that the coat was mine and somebody else destroyed it.
  I had, I have and I will have some of the best friends among Croatians.
  Once more to Ivan: I do not bash Croatians, I criticized Croatian government in “NDH” and one from 1990 to today.
  Now it is turn to Croatians to care for justice. If they don’t ask themselves what these governments have done, and in which name; what Hag is doing; then we will have a little chance to do what you are asking for. Not to underestimate anybody but you have to understand ex Croatian neighbors first, talk to them then proceed further.

  I apologize to everybody on this forum for such a long post.
  
  Pero Peric
  Canada