JURIST - Discussion Archive: Milosevic Trial

JURIST >> LEGAL NEWS - WORLD LAW >> Discussion >> Milosevic Trial Discussion Archive

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Former Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic is on trial for war crimes in the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia at The Hague. This marks the first time a head of state has been personally prosecuted before an international criminal court.

Is Slobodan Milosevic getting a fair trial?
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discussion archive
Friday February 13, 2004 at 1:31 am
Dan B
Frank Tigelaar from Domovina.net should have the answers re the tapes. Most likely it's not a good idea for too many people to see them. It's all pretty much in Milosevic's favour this year.
Ivko Rig
Are you referring to Ivan G from Cleveland, Ohio or Ivan G from Pristina, Serbia? What does "maybe it's time for pigs to turn into sheep?" mean. Is it some sort of saying in the Balkans?
Vasile
Putin is likely referring to Khodorkovsky type stories of meteoric rise from zero to billionaire in the space of 15 years. See: 'Yukos Story'
The story appeared in the Washington Times, Nov 02, 2003, but has since magically disappeared. Briefly, Khodorkovsky, aged 40, made his $13.5 billion since the fall of the Soviet Union. He was a mate of Rothschild during this time and assigned his shares to Rothschild in case he couldn't deal with them himself. Maybe his family couldn't be trusted? LOL

David
Oztralia
Friday February 13, 2004 at 1:57 am
My brothers pigfarm in Kosovo is under violaton of horny Albanians wich has turned it into an rapecamp, therefore he´s to busy contributing here on this forum

Islam Qosja
Pristina
Friday February 13, 2004 at 2:20 am
A. Turcotte from Ottawa, Canada wrote:
“Whatever respect I had for socialist/communist movement I had you just managed to destroy. If you are the example of the better world that rule of the workers shall provide I shall fight to the end to prevent it. And I believe workers would fight you too.”

Poor A. Turcotte,

I have an idea how you could revenge to me for the terrible defeat you suffered here:

How about voting for Nazi next time, and asking your mom and dad to vote the same with you too!

That is to say, unless you are moulded in the same petty-bourgeois mould with serial number on it. In that case forget about mom and daddy.
Arandjel, history will of course have the final word, but I think that there is nothing to object to your argument that it would have been much less of a disaster if Milosevic had agreed to confederation and all that, in the spirit that you suggested. I mean, you are right completely about the cost & benefit analysis of the whole ordeal. At least with hindsight, I don’t think anybody reasonable could deny that. As to my research, you know I don’t like to expose my ideas in preliminary stages on places like this, but if you, in one of your postings provide a mail address (not the main of course, but one of reserve addresses), there would be no problem to say a few words. Exactly because I’ll be busy for an unspecified period of time, I will not be able to post here too much. Bye.

Goran Mihajlovic
Yugoslavia
Friday February 13, 2004 at 2:33 am
Kangaroo-Goran "shoul´d i stay or should i go" Mihajlovic, seems to like it here doesnt he? Boy you have serious problems! For the rest: http://en.rian.ru/rian/index.cfm?msg_id=3923395

Mrya Antonov
Rossija
Friday February 13, 2004 at 3:16 am
David,
my previous post refers to Ivan from Ohio. My question for him "do you think it is time for pigs to turn into sheep?" is unfortunately no saying. I just wanted to show that I think that the man is Arben Q (remember his repeated reference to a caricature?) and by the post I wanted to give some food to his thought. I love making things easier for such people.
Vasile,
not only in Germany. Haven't you heard that Milosevic has eaten up Judge May's brain. Don't ask me how; it must be magic.

ivko rig
Friday February 13, 2004 at 3:32 am
I see that Mrya thinks in terms of Shakespeare’s dilemmas. Ostensibly he worries about me, in reality he just expressed deep sorrow from the bottom of his soul. In Shakespeare it is:

O Romeo, Romeo! wherefore art thou Romeo?
Deny thy father and refuse thy name;
Or, if thou wilt not, be but sworn my love,
And I'll no longer be a Capulet.

In Mrya it is slightly different:

O Pero, Pero! wherefore art thou masculine?
Deny thy sex and refuse thy name
Or, if thou wilt not, be but sworn my love,
And I'll no longer be Mrya, but Mryushka blondinka,
Kotoruyu ti lyubish”
What can we do? It is La forza del destino!

Goran Mihajlovic
Yugoslavia
Friday February 13, 2004 at 5:46 am
Goran Mihajlovic
you really like the sound of your own voice - probably because you are too poor to by a big car to compensate for other physical misfortunes. BTW "we" normal people compared to you do not destroy even people like you. We ridicule them and make them a town fool so that children can laugh too and point the fingers.

A. Turcotte
Ottawa, Canada
Friday February 13, 2004 at 5:51 am
Una vez maricon-siempre maraco, I do not think Mr Pera share your fascination nor do i,what is it this crush you got on him?. But i do belive Gaytoday is a better forum for you, go ahead don´t be shy

Mrya Antonov
Rossija

Friday February 13, 2004 at 2:01 pm
Mrs. Biljana Plavsic was brought to The Hague to be a witness in the case against Mr. Milosevic. She refused to testify on the grounds that she does not want to lie about his actions. She denied any real konwledge of his plans and activities, since she was not a member of his close circle of associates. Afer she made her statement to the prosecution she was returned to her prison in Sweeden.

Pera Bora
Ottawa
Canada
Friday February 13, 2004 at 2:04 pm
BRAKING NEWS:

MILOSEVIC ACQUITTED! FOUND NOT GUILTY!
News has immediately been welcomed throughout the former Yugoslavia. Slovenians, Croats, Moslems, Macedonians, Albanians, Hungarians are all delighted. Now the new era of piece and friendship can start.

Goran Mihajlovic
Yugoslavia
Friday February 13, 2004 at 2:32 pm
BREAKING NEWS!! My ass fore sale to any one of western origin, especially german pigs or buizznizz men!! Please take me out of here(i´m not Serb)

Goran Mihajlovic
Yugoslavia
Friday February 13, 2004 at 2:52 pm
If you close your eyes and wish wery hard .....
Friday February 13, 2004 at 3:02 pm
I believe that case shall be dismissed soon. I doubt that they have guts to continue with case. Why? First they do not know what kind of munitions Milosevic has, who is going to testify, what kind of Russian and Chinese intelligence he has. Primakov of Russia stated that he is going to be his witness. Also, imagine if the first witness for him is General Secretary of UN Butros Gali.

Dakic Ana
Serbia
Friday February 13, 2004 at 3:19 pm
I don't believe that Slobo will ever see the light of day. As for Primakov, he is known as an even bigger liar than Milosevic. He has absolutly no credibility in the West. I do not wish to disillution you but, Butros-Gali is no longer Secretary Greneral of the UN.

Arben Qosja
Chicago
USA
Friday February 13, 2004 at 3:24 pm
I´l buy it! I´v got a job for you in germany. but first we got a lot of celebrating here to do. It would be a hard "job" and you may not be able to sit for a while but i pay you well.

Xhezair Shaqiri
Retardiexhi
Albania
Friday February 13, 2004 at 3:28 pm
No i´l buy that ass of yours! I live in the USA, Goran you can work in my sexfilm studio in a nearby pigfarm.

Arben Qosja
Chicago
USA
Friday February 13, 2004 at 3:59 pm
A certain lack of intelligence is apparent!
Mr. Arben Qosja,
For somebody to testify it is not required to have standing government or international position. Rather the testimony would be given when a given individual, in this case General Secretary of U.N. Butros-Gali, was performing that function.
Of course your valuable assessment of Mr. Primakov veracity is welcome!
Having been educated at the University of Chicago I find it deplorable that certain inhabitants have such a limited intellectual capacity.

D. Jovanovic, physicist
USA
Friday February 13, 2004 at 4:05 pm
Son see this machine? yes pa , well son they stick a pig in this hole and through that other hole comes out bacon and sausages , understand? yes pa , pa is there a machine in which you stick sausages and comes out pigs? yes son its called albania

Malahmuh Muda
Kuwait
Friday February 13, 2004 at 4:35 pm
In our quest " Is the a limit for our great Albania?" we have reached Southern sahara and the djungles, we where surprised of seeing so many albanians they have been living here for ages joyfully jumping around the threes.

Arben rethardxiet
Ougadogou
upper volta
Friday February 13, 2004 at 8:09 pm
I do not expect it to be printed but I sent the following letter to the media outlets Canada wide
On the 19th of February the prosecution part of the Slobodan Milosevic Trial is over. Anyone who has followed the trial must be wondering when the real evidence is to be presented; only rumor, lies, and hearsay have been presented by the many "witnesses". No documentary proof, few first hand accounts, no signatures on orders. No "smoking gun". He is not guilty and all of you know it. And anyone who knows the true history of the region knows this as well.
It will be Milosevic’s turn next but he will be blocked in bringing before the Tribunal Clinton and Albright, Schroeder and Blair and Wesley Clark and Agim Ceku, Osame Bin Laden, and the rest of those bandits who broke up Yugoslavia and you will be silent. It is never going to happen and you will be silent. So what kind of historical record" is being created? How are the people of the world going to lean the truth through this trial particularly since you are silent also?
I have borrowed some of the ideas from others on the JurisI hope you don't mind.

Walter Trkla
Canada
Friday February 13, 2004 at 9:22 pm
About 1-2 months ago the ( WNYC) aka NPR had an interview with the former US ambassador in Croatia . He gave a hint by talking how bad the Milisevic is doing in Hague, raising the possibility of a mistrial . I will try to find it.I remember it was just after 3pm New York time.

Vasile Ian
NJ
Saturday February 14, 2004 at 12:28 am
COMMENT on the above self-deceiving fantasies of Serbian nationalists, signed impersonating Albanians, and on the triumphalism in regard to the failure of the ICTY.

Serbian nationalists, you should better look at yourself, and the geo-strategic realities on the Balkans. This time you have suffered a decisive defeat, and you have not yet learnt the lesson, so you try to provoke another half-time in which you would completely and physically annihilate what remains of Serbian people and society. As a matter of fact you resemble very well the decadent entity in decline, completely detached from reality and materialism, cheerful about your own dieing away. Are you aware that your attitude is inviting the final settling of the accounts in which you would be shrinked to the proportions in which you would not be a factor any more? Of course, I know that “ladies” like Annas, who are for some reason proud of something - what reminds me of a psychiatric joke about the boy who was pissing in bed, who after visiting psychiatrist, when asked by friends is he cured now, answers affirmatively, but on the question ‘so you don’t piss in bed any more?’ replies ‘I piss, but now I am proud of it’; for Annas this fact of passing away is not a matter of concern, they are just satisfying their animalistic primitive instincts, having failed to assimilated some culture from the developed communities where they are lucky to live, avoiding the lot that they assign to their less lucky compatriots who had no other choice but to stay in stinking Serbia.
Geo-strategically, Greater Serbia participants of this forum are total dilettantes. But as Arandjel and me have already demonstrated you even don't try to put any perspective for future, because you don't have any. You are just engaged in pastime satisfying most backwards nationalistic instincts of the horde.

Goran Mihajlovic
Yugoslavia
Saturday February 14, 2004 at 4:40 am
Goran Mihajlovic,
did you maybe read former U.S. Attorney General Ramsey Clark's Letter to Secretary General Kofi Annan
and/or Neil Clark's article i The Guardian,
both of which are dated 12 February, 2004?

Godfred Louis-Jensen
Copenhagen
D E N M A R K
Saturday February 14, 2004 at 4:55 am
MILOSEVIC GIVEN TIME OFF?
Well, - yes, according to the latest JURIST Milosevic trial news, - from Google News.
Something for Goran Mihajlovic to add to his reading list, maybe (detracting just a bit from his time available for writing to this Forum)?

Godfred Louis-Jensen
Copenhagen
D E N M A R K
Saturday February 14, 2004 at 5:08 am
Goran Mihajlovic
Given your exaggerated obsession with things sexual, whu don't you kindly go and get fucked? It might stabilise your libido at a normal level and introduce some coherence in your arguments.
Everyone else
Presumably Milosevic will make a motion to have the matter dismissed as there is no case to answer and no proof beyond a reasonable doubt has been presented. The criminal standard will presumably apply rather than the lesser civil one of probablity of guilt, which in itself is also much higher than the evidence warrants. The BULK OF THE EVIDENCE HAS BEEN BASED ON HEARSAY, MEDIA REPORTS AND PERSONAL ASSUMPTIONS AND VIEWS!
The Trio will no doubt argue that there is a case to answer and instruct Milosevic to continue with his defence. And here's where the crunch will come...
Milosevic will start producing things THEY WILL NOT WANT TO HEAR! So what are their options? Call a mistrial and run Milosevic into the ground until he's dead? Arrange an accident or suicide in his cell? Limit his witnesses? Make it impossible for him to conduct his defence? Or what else? A surprise smoking gun witness or documentation which just mysteriously shows up and the OTP seeks special leave to present it?
They are in a bind! Milosevic has already won, irrespective of whether they find him guilty or not.
I'm sure that if they'd known better and what a formidable opponent he'd prove to be, they'd have left it to the 5th columnists in Belgrade to try him for the murder of Stambolic or some other frame up and washed their hands of him.
Mr Nice was looking decidedly dejected yesterday at the close of the proceedings. Was it because he's demoralised or was it becasue he sees his salary and his reputation going down the shute.
Mr Jovanovic
The Guardian article is no breakthrough. It's merely intended to discredit ICTY and ICC type tribunals and point to their politicisation so when Britain might be brought before the ICC in the future they can renig on their membership as signatories to the ICC.
Arandjel
If you are going to be as obtuse as Judge may it's going to be very difficult to ask you anything. I gave you my run down in a previous post about Milosevic's role. You have yet to explain or demonstrate to me how Milosevic was in a position to stop the Slovenian secession by ordering the JNA to go in hard.
Slovenia exiting did not destroy YU or the principles on which YU (Tito's version) was built. Same goes for Croatia. Much like if one of your 7 brothers leaves home, dies or disappears, it doesn't mean your entire family no longer exists. Certainly what your family stands for does not disappear until every one of its members is gone. The principle of YU was a noble one and did not die with Slovenia and Croatia leaving. Why Serbia and Montenegro ultimately were not allowed to retain that principle for those who wished to live under that principle is a question you need to ask NATO, not me. Whoever killed that principle, it CERTAINLY WASN'T MILOSEVIC, otherwise Serbia and Montenegro would still be called Yugoslavia. Who was so bothered by the concept of YUGOSLAVIA that they insisted Milosevic get rid of it?

David
Oztralia
Saturday February 14, 2004 at 5:18 am

Walter Trkla writes:

I have borrowed some of the ideas from others [..]

That's exactly the line of action you accuse the prosecution in the Hague court of - I guess some are more equal than others here?

Frank Tiggelaar
Holland
Saturday February 14, 2004 at 6:16 am
Godfred, its pity you didn't understand that my last remarks were exactly in reference to Neil Clark's article in The Guardian, and triumphalism of Serbian nationalists it aroused. By the way I am not sure you interpret the meaning of that article right, namely it speaks of the failure of the ICTY, which is beyond dispute, starting from the very nature of that "court", but I suppose the article does not intend to say that Milosevic is innocent. It speaks volumes that you attach any importance to "former U.S. Attorney General Ramsey Clark".
"detracting just a bit from your time" of being an agency and mail carrier of Greater Serbia and Milosevic, when will anyone of you say something about FUTURE, if for example Milosevic be acquitted and Greater Serbia nationalism absolved? How many new graves are participants of this forum digging by trying to rehabilitate Serbian nationalism? That's the question on which you are all silent. Acquit Milosevic, and then what?

Goran Mihajlovic
Yugoslavia
Saturday February 14, 2004 at 6:54 am
Godfred, its pity you didn't understand that my last remarks were exactly in reference to my albanian sick brain, and triumphalism of Serbian nationalists it aroused. By the way I am not sure you interpret the meaning of that article right, namely it speaks of the stupidity that anyone belives that i´m from Yug, which is ridicolous i´m nothing but a proud supporter of a greater Albania, starting from the very nature of that "brain", but I suppose the article does not intend to say that me or my alterego Arandjel are innocent. It speaks for itself "detracting just a bit from KLA time" of being an agency terrorist and mail carrier of Greater Albania and H.Taci, when will anyone of you say something about the real essense of my brain capacity?, if for example H.Taci be acquitted and Greater Albania nationalism absolved? How many new graves are participants and KLA supporters digging by trying to rehabilitate Albanian nationalism? That's the question on which you are all silent. Acquit all Albanian terrorists, and then what?

Goran Mihajlovic =)
Albania
Saturday February 14, 2004 at 7:34 am
Goran
Dance monkey

Dakic Ana
Serbia
Saturday February 14, 2004 at 7:57 am
Goran Mihajlovic, Yugoslavia(February 14, 2004 at 6:16 am):
Then what? Surely Milosevic should be aquitted, if he is not guilty as charged, - no matter "what" (it is not a question of being "innocent" - no Angel would ever make it as President of the FRY or Serbia, - or even of my own native Denmark, anyway).
I may of course misinterpret Neil Clark's article in The Guardian - so far I tend to regard it indeed as some "breakthrough", as does D. Jovanovic (February 13, 2004 at 11:57 am). It certainly stands out in stark contrast to the current (low!) general level of understanding in my own country, anyway, - that's how I judge it.
But of course we should discuss the contents, - David and yourself having now made a start.
I would also have to return to the question of just exactly which "volumes" it may speak, that I "attach importance to Ramsey Clark"? For the time being let me briefly repeat that I still regard THE COMPLAINT - the charges against NATO from the fall of 1999 - as a key document in this entire affair (- just like mr. Milosevic's speech at the Kosovo Polje in 1989, introduced to "us" by Jared Israel in 1999!)
I tend to attach importance to ideas, thoughts expressed rather than to the people, person(s) behind them.

Godfred Louis-Jensen
Copenhagen
D E N M A R K
Saturday February 14, 2004 at 8:09 am

******** * * * * * *
$$$$$$$$
Saturday February 14, 2004 at 8:35 am
Unlike you, Mr. Tiggelaar, there are some on this forum who hate Milosevic less and love justice more. There are also some on this forum, unlike you, who do not depend on their daily bread of lies from The Hague. It is for these two reasons that I use their ides and not yours.

Walter Trkla
Kamloops BC
Canada
Saturday February 14, 2004 at 8:44 am
Since you all always avoid the issue, I must be more specific as to what was meant by that ¡®what then?¡¯

WAS THERE A WAR?

DID IT CLAIM ANY LIVES?

IS ANYBODY RESPONSIBLE FOR ALL THESE CRIMES?

WHO IS GUILTY, IN YOUR OPINION? SPELL THE WHOLE LIST! YOU AVOID THAT CONSTANTLY?

WHY OUT OF TEN MAJOR PEOPLES OF FORMER YUGOSLAVIA, NOT A SINGLE ONE WAS ON THE SIDE OF SERBIAN NATIONALISM, INCLUDING MAJORITY IN MONTENEGRO, AND FOR THAT MATTER IN BELGRADE? WHY SUCH HOSTILITY AGAINST SERBIAN NATIONALIST POLITICS? DO YOU HAVE ANY EXPLANATION?

SO DON¡¯T PRETEND TO BE AN ENGLISHMAN, AS SERBIAN SAYING DESCRIBES THOSE WHO AVOID ISSUES. YOU ARE JUST A DANISH MAIL CARRIER OF SERBIAN NATIONALISM AND HER FALLEN DICTATOR.

Goran Mihajlovic
Yugoslavia
Saturday February 14, 2004 at 8:47 am
David are you reading my post at all? Come on. I went through ones responsible for ordering the army in Jug from 1990 - 1991 on Presidency.
Again 'We know how close Jovic was with Milosevic. Borislav Jovic was in charge of Presidency until middle from 16 May 1990 - 16 May 1991. Stipe Suvar was Croatia representative.' The Presidency and Ante Markovic were in position to order armed forces into Slovenia. Second biggest army in Europe and they were humiliated with Toy guns? Dont you want to know who was responsbile for that pretend to defend Jugoslavia? Who was in position to gain if Slovenia was allowed to leave? Why did Milosevic say 'let them go'? Simple and honest answer is that there are not many Serbs in slovenia. To conclude must be that Jovic and Presidency let Jugoslavia die. I will show now to you that I dont have problem to admit - there is no direct evidence to say that Milosevic was behind this. But Jovic must take reposibility and he represented Serb side so we must take responsibility also. I believe that Jovic ordered Kadijevic to send in only toy guns.
As for brothers leaving home ok. But if all brothers have equal say and balance of power depend on one brother leaving. It makes rest unequal. The balance between ones who want closer family and ones that want looser family is upset. So again you ask by brother leaving the house which brothers gained? You must understand that Presidency was act of balance. Without balance whole thing fell.
OK you dont agree that Jugoslavia died when Slovenia left its ok. Then dont you think inevitable that Jugoslavia would fall when Slovenia went?
Peric 'You seem to think that Croatia and Slovenia wanted to have influence in forming and spending Yu budget.' - What you dont agree with me. Dont be stupid please this is fact you know that. We can argue if this was an excuse for something else but it is fact.
Ask yourself why Croatia and Slovenia today have national debt each more than 20 bilions - Because they decided to spend it that way, not because somebody else wanted to put million into a place where no Slovenes and few Croats live. Again you can argue that Croats and Slovenes were hiding behind this argument but you cant argue with rational.
The whole economic system in Yug was made to suit Slovenian and Croatian needs? Well yes there is some truth in this argument but I would not say whole. I would also say that Serbs should have been a little more interested in economic system and little less interested in controling police and military. Croats and Slovenes got better deal in peace Serbs had better one in war. Problem is that economics not military became biggest factor in modern age.
And do you understand princip selfdetermination? Do you understand a difference between internationalism and globalization? - yes I do. Yes you want me to say that Serbs in Croatia had right to self determination like Croats did in Jugoslavia. Yes I agree but 1st you think Croats would have offer that? 2nd You think Milosevic would want that? No much better to keep Jugoslavia together in first place with Slovenia.
Pera Bora your post become more infantile by the day. So you take Milosevic position that Markovic was to blame for Slovenia and not his man Jovic? 'so called' Bosnians? (Serbs right?) 'so called' Montenegrians (Serbs right?), 'so called' Macedonians (Serbs right?). Nice to see the Velika Srbija dream still alive. Pity you dont have guts to come and say it clearly but you dont fool me. It makes me sick to think that I still support all Serbs under one umbrella idea when nationalists like you hide behind me who just want to prove that all Bosnians, Mg's and Mac's are really Serbs. I defend Serbs rights because of the sad history and because of their fears not because I have other agenda.
Murderous war against Slovenia. God help me I had to laugh. Mr Bora after all those people killed in Croatia, Bosnia and all refugees! 'Murderous' war in Slovenia? Slovenian defence force was pathetic. Jugoslav army was giant. What is 200 - 300 dead next to million refugees, 100.000 dead all over Jugoslavia? Your argument is really pathetic you will have to do better.
In case some Jurist read me and not Goran I repeat his question. It is very relevant whatever you think of him or my ideas.
What do we do with Milosevic if we let him go? Do we let Gotovina have nice trial in Croatia also? Do we let more Serbs put in prison in Croatia for no reason?
Gorane my address is opalapasic@hotmail.com . If anybody else wants to tell how Im Soros mouthpiece, quisling or other usual trash then I will have to deal with this as well.

Arandjel Pasic
Jug
Saturday February 14, 2004 at 9:16 am
David are you reading my stupid fucked up post at all? Come on give me a blow job, you play the flute don´t you?. I went through ones responsible for schpritzen bitte!!!!the army in Albania from 1990 - 1991 on Presidency. Again 'We know how close i was with Soros. BIG DICK was in charge of Presidency until middle from 16 May 1990 - 16 May 1991. Stipe Suvar was Croatia representative.' The Presidency BlalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalallalalalalalalallalalalalallaabballalalalalallalalalBIG DICKalalallalalalalallalalalalalblalallaballallalalallalballaballlalallallalballallallaballala show now to you that I dont have problem to admit - there is no direct evidence to say that Milosevic was behind this. But Jovic must takeHOHO? and he represented Serb side so we must take responsibility also. I believe thatfuck me!!ordered Kadijevic to send in only toy guns. As for brothers leaving home ok. But if all brothers have equal say and balance of power depend on one brother leaving. It makes rest unequal. The balance between ones who want closer family and lalallallalallallalallalalalallalalalallalallallalalalallalalabalallalalallabalalalblalallathat Presidency was act of balance. Without balance whole thing fell. OK you dont agree that marrx died when Slovenia left its ok. Then dont you think inevitable that Jugoslavia would fall when Soros went? Peric 'You seem to think that Croatia and Slovenia wanted to have influence in forming andlalalalalallalalallaallalalallaallalalalallallalallalalalallalalallalalalallalallalalllalalal. We can argue if this was an excuse for something else but it is fact. Ask yourself why im lobotomated with an Albanian "brain" and Slovenia today have national debt each more than 20 bilions - Because they decided to spend it that way, not because somebody else wanted to put million into a place where no Slovenes and few Croats live. Again you can argue that Croats and Slovenes were hiding behind this argument but you cant argue with rational. The whole economic system in Yug was made to suit Slovenian and Croatian needs? Well yes there is some truth in this argument but I would not say whole. I would also say that Serbs should have been a little more interested in economic system and little less interested in controling police and military. Croats and Slovenes got better deal in peace Serbs had better one in war. Problem is that economics not military became biggest factor in modern age. And do you understand princip selfdetermination? Do you understand a difference between internationalism and globalization? - yes I do. Yes you want me to say that Serbs in Croatia had right to self determination like Croats did in Jugoslavia. Yes I agree but 1st you think Croats would have offer that? 2nd You think Milosevic would want that? No much better to keep Jugoslavia together in first place with Slovenia. Pera Bora your post become more infantile by the day. So you take Milosevic position that Markovic was to blame for Slovenia and not his man Jovic? 'so called' Bosnians? (Serbs right?) 'so called' Montenegrians (Serbs right?), 'so called' Macedonians (Serbs right?). Nice to see the Velika Srbija dream still alive. Pity you dont have guts to come and say it clearly but you dont fool me. It makes me sick to think that I still support all Serbs under one umbrella idea when nationalists like you hide behind me who just want to prove that all Bosnians, Mg's and Mac's are really Serbs. I defend Serbs rights because of the sad history and PUSSY not because I have other agenda. Money money moneyurd Slovenia. God help me I had to laugh. Mr Bora after all those people killed in Croatia, Bosnia and all refugees! 'Murderous' war in Slovenia? Slovenian defence force was pathetic. Jugoslav army was giant. What is 200 - 300 dead next to million refugees, 100.000 dead all over Jugoslavia? Your argument is really pathetic you will have to do better. In case some Jurist read me and not Goran I repeat his question. It is very relevant whatever you think of him or my ideas. What do we do with Milosevic if we let him go? Do we let Gotovina have nice trial in Croatia also? Do we let more Serbs put in prison in Croatia for no reason? Gorane my address is Sorosgivememoney@.com . If anybody else wants to tell how Im Soros mouthpiece, quisling or other usual trash then I will have to deal with this as well.

Arandjel Mihajlovic
Sin city of Soros
Albania
Saturday February 14, 2004 at 9:18 am
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$BUY MY ASS!$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Goran Mihajlovic
ALBMERICA
Saturday February 14, 2004 at 9:26 am
Stop with that nonsence Goran your ass belongs to me now get ready for a hell of a f*ck and come over here!

Arben Qosja
Chicago
USA
Saturday February 14, 2004 at 9:28 am
yes massa i will, is emir Soros there with you?

Goran Mihajlovic
Yugoslavia
Saturday February 14, 2004 at 9:46 am
Reading the ZNET article Elections in Belgrade I can only conclude that it seems to me that some Serbs, particularly in Belgrade, hate Milosevic more and love the truth less. Beating the Serbs over the head as NATO has done and continues to do have caused this reaction in Serbia and has led to as the author writes a government of "national disaster".
Goran makes a very strong point about evils of “Nationalism” and as far as I can see he would like to relegate it to the “dustbin of history”. So would I. The world would have been better off if nationalism had died in the trenches of WWI. Goran sees Serbian nationalism whenever Serbs write that The Hague Tribunal is anti Serb? In his myopia he does not see the Tribunal as anti Socialist, even though, he has alluded to that in his last few posts when he decided to come out of the septic tank. Yes Goran the world would be a better place united and that will only happen when the Goran’s of the world see equal value between “mail carriers” and other contributing members of society.
It is not far fetched that Mr. Key will ask for a mistrial on the basis of lack of evidence. NATO has failed to achieve its objectives in the Balkans with this trial and maybe this was intentional since they had no case from the beginning. Two years and counting NATO is not in control of Belgrade and Milosevic will start calling witnesses including the bandits Clinton and Albright, Schroeder and Blair and Wesley Clark. NATO decision in the next few days will be damage control. They will send Milosevic back to Belgrade to their paid underlings and the bandits need not testify. A bird in hand is better than a bird in the bush even though the bird in hand is almost dead and like always with western imperialism we get more of the same. They talk about rebuilding but all they do is destroy and than lie. Nothing has changed only more of the same.

Walter Trkla
Kamloops BC
Canada
Saturday February 14, 2004 at 10:36 am
If this has been previously referenced here, I apologize - it was new to me. From http://www.mackenzieinstitute.com, an excerpt from the COMMENTARY link Euroean copyright: Emerson Vermaat, PO Box 1944, 1200 BX Hilversum, Netherlands. A MacKenzie Institute Occasional Paper: Bin Laden's Terror Networks in Europe.
The Balkans: Bosnia-Hercegovina
After the war broke out in Bosnia-Hercegovina in 1992, Islamic Veterans from the Afghan war saw fresh opportunities for a jihad and joined the Muslim government forces. The Iranians also showed an interest. Relations between Sarajevo and Tehran were very good. These Mujahedeen forces were known for their ferocity. Some of them were trained by Bin Laden. By their manners, language, culture and faces they were easy to distinguish from the government forces which sometimes heavily relied on these experienced and hardened fighters. Many of them regarded acts that Westerners consider war crimes as holy duty. The Mujahedeen units around Zenica were especially notorious and operated jointly withthe Bosnian Third Army Corps. ...At Dayton, the Americans insisted on the complete withdrawal of all Iranian and Mujahedeen forces....As Richard Holbrooke, the chief negotiator at Dayton, pointed out: "We could not tolerate the continued presence of these people in Bosnia, especially since some had ties to groups in the Middle East that had committed terrorist acts against American troops."...Some 400 remained, received Bosnian citizenship and continued to cause problems. Many of them are linked to al-Qaeda.In September, 2001...the Bosnian government arrested Bensayah Belkacem, who had phone conversations with Abu Zubaydah, a Bin Laden top aide in charge of coordinating Mujahedeen recruitment from Afghanistan for the Bosnian war. He was also responsible for the training camps....Belkacem and the other five arrested Algerians were acquitted for lack of evidence by the Bosnian Supreme Court in January 2002. For security reasons, the Americans had failed to produce the tapes of the defendants' monitored telephone conversations....and turned the six men over to the Americans who wanted to interrogate them in Guantanamo Bay....all had obtained Bosnian citizenship and had participated in the Bosnian was as Mujahedeen.Al-Queda took an active part in the recruitment of jihad fighters - virtually all Arabs - for the war in Bosnia.Charities controlled by Bin Laden funnelled millions of dollars to the Bosnians.
The Balkans:Albania,Kosovo and Macedonia: Bin Laden was looking for causes to fight the infidel in other places, too. Almost simultaneously with the war in Bosnia, the war in Chechnya provided an equally good opportunity. Bin Laden also took an interest in Albania where chaos and anarchy prevailed, making it a paradise for arms traffickers and other unruly elements. Islamicist grouops saw Albania as fertile recruiting ground. The war in Kosovo gave thm an additional opportunity to win young unemployed Albanians over to their cause. There was no lack of money for the Islamicists. first provided humanitarian aid and then operated more openly. Bin Laden visited Albania in 1994 as part of a Saudi delegation....Albania was also used as a springboard to neighboring Kosovo. In April 1999, some 500 Arab Mujahedeen were smuggled into the capital of Tirana. Their mission was to conduct special operations against Yugoslav forces in Kosovo....The whole operation was led by Bin Laden's deputy Ayman al-Zawahiri. Kosovo was later used as a springboard to Macedonia. Al-Qaeda operatives made some recruits among the Kosovo Liberation Army and later among radical Albanians in macedonia. They provided training, and possibly money....In those parts of Macedonia where the Albanian rebels took control in the Spring of 2001, special committees were formed in villages and neighborhoods. At least one of them displayed what can best be described as a green Arab jihad flag on their table.
Vermaat provides documentation with the original which includes much personal witnessing.

M Donne
Canada
Saturday February 14, 2004 at 10:45 am
I find the following argument in Mr. Ramsey Clark’s letter most relevant.
How can a single defendant read through 500,000 pages of documents transcript of 33,000 pages of transcript and produce a defense in just three months?
Ramsey Clark implies that this is deliberate. I tend to agree.

D. Jovanovic,physicist
USA
Saturday February 14, 2004 at 11:24 am
Frank T.
Any insight how much the ICTY/OTP pays per diem to witnesses such as the Venezuelan Ambassador ?
Does a Venezuelan Ambassador get the same per diem as Gen. Clark ?

AP V
NY
NY
Saturday February 14, 2004 at 12:40 pm
Well, Trkla seems to be the only one on this forum to like you Arben alias Goran alias Arandjel or should we say "sir Donkey king"? you can fool one but not everybody.

´ ´
´
Saturday February 14, 2004 at 1:18 pm
Walter Trkla has written: "Goran makes a very strong point about evils of “Nationalism” and as far as I can see he would like to relegate it to the “dustbin of history”. So would I. The world would have been better off if nationalism had died in the trenches of WWI. Goran sees Serbian nationalism whenever Serbs write that The Hague Tribunal is anti Serb? In his myopia he does not see the Tribunal as anti Socialist, even though, he has alluded to that in his last few posts when he decided to come out of the septic tank. Yes Goran the world would be a better place united and that will only happen when the Goran’s of the world see equal value between “mail carriers” and other contributing members of society."

Good thing is that I see that there is a struggle between good and evil going on in you, and I hope that good would eventually win. BUT, I AM SADDENED THAT YOU COMPLETELY MISREPRESENT ME. THAT’S NOT NICE OF YOU! ( TO NIJE LEPO OD TEBE). Of course that "Tribunal is anti Socialist", I was very clear in many postings that I don’t support this imperialist "court", DIFFERENCE BETWEEN US IS NOT IN THAT, BUT IN THE REASON OR PERSPECTIVE FROM WHICH WE CRITICIZE THE ICTY. I AM DOING THAT FROM THE INDEPENDENT POSITION OF THE INTERNATIONAL WORKING CLASS, WHILE MOST OF YOU ON THIS FORUM ARE DOING THAT FROM THE POSITION OF SERBIAN NATIONALISM AND GLORIFICATION OF MILOSEVIC. THAT IS THE DIFFERENCE!! I HAVE PROVIDED MANY LINKS FROM THE WWW.WSWS.ORG THAT CRITICIZE THE ICTY. SO YOU EITHER DIDN'T READ MY POSTINGS, OR FEEL THAT YOUR ONLY WAY OUT IS TO ERECT A STRAW-MAN
IT IS VERY DISTURBING THAT YOU USE THE SAME METHOD WITH YOUR: “when the Goran’s of the world see equal value between “mail carriers” and other contributing members of society”. IF YOU MISREPRESENT ME LIKE THAT, THEN YOU LEAVE ME NO CHOICE BUT TO EXPLAIN TO YOU THAT IT IS CLEAR TO EVERYONE FROM MY POSTINGS THAT “MAIL CARRIERS” ARE WONDERFUL, YOUR WIFE CAN BEST TESTIFY TO THAT (WHEN YOU ARE NOT AT HOME). I DIDN’T REFER TO “MAIL CARRIERS” IN GENERAL BUT TO A DANISH MAIL CARRIER OF SERBIAN NATIONALISM AND HER FALLEN DICTATOR, WITH ACCENT BEING ON “SERBIAN NATIONALISM AND HER FALLEN DICTATOR”. MAYBE YOUR SLIP IS SUBCONSCIOUS REACTION TO THE SUSPICIONS YOU HAVE ABOUT YOUR WIFE AND YOUR “MAIL CARRIER”. IN THAT CASE I CAN UNDERSTAND, AND YOU HAVE MY SYMPATHIES.

Goran Mihajlovic
Yugoslavia
Saturday February 14, 2004 at 1:31 pm
And Trkla, when will you stop beating your wife? (This is an English idiom)

Goran Mihajlovic
Yugoslavia
Saturday February 14, 2004 at 3:21 pm
And Arben, c´mon and fuck the shit out of me, you and me against the Serbs, for a great Albania Ilove you!!

Goran Mihajlovic
Yugoslavia
Saturday February 14, 2004 at 3:25 pm
Good point Goran, get ready and gimmie that traitors ass of yours this time with industrial grease!

Arben Qosja
Chicago
USA
Saturday February 14, 2004 at 3:41 pm
I agree and Goran why not give birth to some "shitkids"? just sqeese them out!

Megan Boil
USA
Saturday February 14, 2004 at 5:00 pm
Frank Tiggelaar,
How come the video of Gen. Morillion's testimony hasn't been posted yet?

Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States
Saturday February 14, 2004 at 6:19 pm
The great advocate of the Working Class, Goran Mihajlovic did not say in his criticism of Godfred Louis-Jensen, that he was the solicitor, lawyer, advocate, or spokesperson but specifically chose the term “mail carrier” since in his mind, mail carriers have less status than spokespersons. The innuendo is clear Goran, you chose the term mail carrier, which indicates your lack of class consciousness.
Goran Serbs must come to terms with the truth of the past fifteen years and not live with the past as if it justifies everything. This is not a “struggle between good and evil going on” but a struggle for the truth whatever its reality might be. The fact that we speak against the ICTY, and seek international justice does not make us Serb nationalists or apologists. Most of us on this forum oppose Great Power nationalism and ICTY is one of its tools. The discussion here is about abuse of rule of law, due process and independent judiciary and by responding to the mock trial or the ‘imperialist tool” as you call the court, we are simply exposing their lies. This does not mean that we are Serbian Kultur Traggen. This is simply a legal discussion which you have defined as nationalism.
You, Goran, in your post represent the worst in our culture. I have always felt that moral degeneration was part of the village lingua but it seems that one can take Goran out of the village but not the village out of Goran. ( TO NIJE LEPO OD TEBE).
Goran, I don’t see you as a ‘straw man” nor do I respect you as a man. Your comments here about women as well as your sexual innuendos are not a trait of a MAN but their use by you sure separates the sheep from the goats. When we have Goran’s style universal socialism everything will come up smelling like roses but if he becomes the leader it will smell like skunk cabbage and that is why Marx called Socialists enemies of the working class. Goran you have become rhubarb on this forum so why don’t you fall of a porch since it is become beneath my dignity to carry a conversation with a lout. The last two sentences have several English idioms so take them to your corner and sleep off the hair of the dog that bit you.

Walter Trkla
Kamloops BC
Canada
Saturday February 14, 2004 at 6:52 pm
GORAN’S SEX LIFE For me Goran says having sex is like playing bridge, when I don’t have a good partner I call Desanka Sakic. Goran says that his bisexuality immediately doubles his chances for a date on Saturday night.
Sex at Goran’s age is like trying to shoot pool with a rope so that is why Goran’s genetic pool is left on his shorts.
Women, Goran says, might be able to fake orgasms but I can fake a whole relationships
Clinton lied. A man might forget where he parks or where he lives, but I have never forgotten oral sex with Arben Q.
Women need a reason to have sex. Goran says he only needs Arben.
According to a new survey, women say they feel more comfortable undressing in front of men than they do undressing in front of other women. They say that women are too judgmental, where, of course, Goran is just grateful for Arben.
"There's a new medical crisis. Doctors are reporting that many men like Goran are having allergic reactions to latex condoms. They say they cause severe swelling. So what's the problem? In Goran’s case that is a blessing particularly when Arben’s is around since at that time it is twice the size.
There's very little advice to give to Goran, because he knows what he is doing. He says just show me a naked Arben. The problem with Goran is that God gave him a brain and a penis and only enough blood to run one at a time and for Goran that is a problem since both organs are small.

Goran Mihajlovich
Albania
Saturday February 14, 2004 at 6:59 pm
Fellow Forum participants,
It is about time to ignore these three,( or two or one?)posters going under the names Goran Mihajlovic, Arben and another one.
They just interfvere, deflect and obfuscate the aim of this Foru,
olease ignore them!

D. Jovanovic,physicist
USA
Saturday February 14, 2004 at 7:02 pm
Sorry for mis-spelled words. Hasty typing!

D. Jovanovic
USA
Saturday February 14, 2004 at 7:17 pm
Arandjel
You have a pretty good idea of who was who at the time the Slovenia "war" came up. And it was Markovic not Jovic who was the first among "equals"? Jovic could vote for JNA hard line in Slovenia but there were others there who could block such a decision. Are you saying Jovic should have organised a military putsch on behalf of Milosevic? That would have gone down really WELL in Europe and the world!
Apart from that, what sort of "democracy" are u proposing where someone is forced at gunpoint to do as they are told and contrary to their wishes? I'll repeat it for you again: Milosevic stuck to the YU constitution! That constitution allowed the constituent nations in each republic to opt out of the federation under certain conditions, the same conditions Milosevic espoused on so many occasions. It was the failure of the Slovenes, Croats and Muslims to stick to the YU and their own Republican constitutions, aided and abetted by the Western war mongers (Germany, Vatican,US primarily) that led to the conflicts. In Slovenia there were no significant numbers of Serbs and the Serbs were not a constituent people. If Slovenia wanted to go it was their right to go unilaterally as it didn't drag any of the other nations OUT of YU. Hence a phony war with lots of nice propaganda to demonstrate victory of "democracy" over communist dictatorship. Notwithstanding that the lack of serious opposition on Milosevic's part as you say suggests that they were ALLOWED to exercise their democratic choice of leaving YU.
In Croatia and B-H things were not so simple. Secession could only be achieved by agreement between the constituent nations, Serbs being one of them. In effect, Serbs in those republics were being RAILROADED out of YU, kicked out of town in Wild West parlance, unconstitutionally and illegally, as you already know. They adopted a defensive position and decided to secede from Croatia and Bosnia, as was THEIR democratic right by the constitution and by virtue of the SAME RIGHT which Croats and Muslims afforded themselves. That didn't suit the Tudjmans and Izetbegovics and the conflict arose out of Tudjman and Izetbegovic doing what you suggested Jovic and Milosevic should have done in Slovenia... Military force to prevent secession. They already managed to arm themselves, see Spegelj's adventures as an example, so all they needed was to prevent the JNA from gettting involved. Foreign propaganda about democracy etc assured that scenario by curbing JNA intervention to a great extent, as it did in Slovenia. Immediate recognition then made the JNA an "aggressor army". Are you getting the picture here?
The only problem is that while democracy for Croats and Muslims wishing to secede was acknowledged by the "international community" (read US, Germany, Vatican... the ones who call the shots), it wasn't recognised for the Serbs in Croatia and B-H even though they had the same rights and entitlements. In fact, Operation Storm was a clear example of a denial of those rights at gunpoint! The same strategy you suggest Milosevic should have employed in preventing the secession of Slovenia. Can you see now why that strategy would not have been appropriate?
Just as it was inappropriate in the case of elsewhere in Croatia and Bosnia where Tudjman and Izetbegovic did exactly that! And the FREEDOM LOVING DEMOCRATIC WEST more than just looked on, they went as far as to FINANCE IT, SUPPORT IT AND PROVIDE THE INTERNATIONAL COVER FOR IT... the same sort of cover they are now trying to give a legal veneer to through the ICTY.
We won't even mention the Kosovo case as that is even more of a travesty!
You should be happy that Milosevic is in the Hague for one simple reason... That it provides a forum for the truth of what happened to your people comes out. And that truth is different than the media and their masters present.
Forget about your personal distaste for Milosevic, this show is a lot bigger than petty accounts you have to settle with him. This show is about the history of the Serbs and yet another attempt to hide and bury their misfortunes at the hands of the more powerful states, in the same way Tito's and Goran's "internationalists" buried the misfortunes of the Serbs in WW2 and Pavelic's NDH state in the name of another idealistic venture... Brotherhood and Unity.
Today it's democracy and humanitarianism, free markets and prosperity, global village etc.
Go ahead and vote Milosevic guilty at the Hague. In the light of the evidence presented by Nice and co, you merely assist in the above venture. Not to mention the venture which is of even more concern to those who are outside of YU... The legalisation and justification of predatory behaviour by powerful states who covertly defy laws and norms of behaviour in the name of those same noble ideas most of us are happy to subscribe to.
In the end, it seems to me the difference between you and me is not one of essential values but a difference in the recognition of being used and abused on the basis of our probably similar values.
There are many of us in the world who suffer the same fate, including the bulk of the decent American population who are deceived by the power of their their politicians and vested BIG money interests who control them. But NOT in my name!

David
Oztralia
Saturday February 14, 2004 at 9:29 pm
David and Arandjel do you know when the war started in Slovenia? I am really surprised David that you also accepted (from Pasic) that Jovic was a president of SFRJ at the time when war started. Slovenija proclaimed independency on June 25 1991. Please check it out.

Pero Peric
Canada
Saturday February 14, 2004 at 9:47 pm
Walter Trkla continues his outright lies: ¡°The great advocate of the Working Class, Goran Mihajlovic did not say in his criticism of Godfred Louis-Jensen, that he was the solicitor, lawyer, advocate, or spokesperson but specifically chose the term ¡°mail carrier¡± since in his mind, mail carriers have less status than spokespersons. The innuendo is clear Goran, you chose the term mail carrier, which indicates your lack of class consciousness.¡±

I could not say that ¡°Godfred Louis-Jensen was the solicitor, lawyer, advocate, or spokesperson¡± of Greater Serbia nationalism and Milosevic, because I was specifically referring to his repeated postings of a kind: ¡°PLEASE FORWARD THE FOLLOWING TO ALL MEDIA¡±, and similar. This kind of activity does not belong to ¡°solicitor, lawyer, advocate, or spokesperson¡±, and it would be funny and incomprehensible if I used those terms. So there is NOTHING of a kind that you try to suggest, except that YOU FOR SOME REASON DISLIKE MAIL CARRIERS, UNLIKE YOUR WIFE. And spare the working class of your crocodile tears for her, you have shown on this forum enough your attitude towards the working class, its pointless now to try to revise the history. As to mail carriers, you know they work very hard, because apart from their usual job, sometimes they must satisfy some peoples¡¯ horny wives, and that¡¯s clear to everyone here. Our sympathies to you! Don¡¯t beat mail carriers please, they are just trying to help you.
If lies and distortions are your way to declare your capitulation, I accept it!

Goran Mihajlovic
Yugoslavia
Saturday February 14, 2004 at 9:54 pm
I posted once and I'll repeat and Mr Pasic you could find roles and nationality of these who ordered and executed the war in Slovenia I'll start from the top in a chain of command:
Ante Markovic, Budimir Loncar, Veljko Kadijevic, Stane Brovet, Zvonko Jurjevic, Konard Kolsek, Maijan Cad, Martin Spegelj.
Pasic, for your information
Jovic presidency stopped in midnight on May 16. 1991. Mesic was vice president of Yugoslavia since fall 1990 and President of SFRJ during the War in Slovenia - Stipe Suvar was withdrawn from Presidency when Mesic was appointed in 1990 as a member.

Pero Peric
Canada
Saturday February 14, 2004 at 10:14 pm
By the way, I am surprised that Serb nationalists on this forum are such COWARDS to have no guts to answer the following questions:

WAS THERE A WAR?

DID IT CLAIM ANY LIVES?

IS ANYBODY RESPONSIBLE FOR ALL THESE CRIMES?

WHO IS GUILTY, IN YOUR OPINION? SPELL THE WHOLE LIST! YOU AVOID THAT CONSTANTLY?
WHY OUT OF TEN MAJOR PEOPLES OF FORMER YUGOSLAVIA, NOT A SINGLE ONE WAS ON THE SIDE OF SERBIAN NATIONALISM, INCLUDING MAJORITY IN MONTENEGRO, AND FOR THAT MATTER IN BELGRADE? WHY SUCH HOSTILITY AGAINST SERBIAN NATIONALIST POLITICS? DO YOU HAVE ANY EXPLANATION?

Goran Mihajlovic
Yugoslavia
Saturday February 14, 2004 at 11:33 pm
There were several arguments raised recently in connection with the Milosevic trial issues, so here’s my penny’s worth. Re nationalist vs. internationalist: One Serb intellectual, born and living in Zagreb (Croatia) until fired from his job, threatened with his and the lives of his children and forced to emigrate to Australia in 1992, otherwise nationality-blind and considering himself to be a Yugoslav, said this: “If they keep yelling after you ‘Chetnik’ in the street, in a while you’ll start turning back.” I’ll add that if a person gets threatened, fired, beaten and killed because of his nationality, he is bound to notice that he does belong to a certain nation. It’s ironic that one should try and play at being an internationalist while in the real world the nation-states, both old and emerging ones, pursue their nationalist agendas with brutal force. This is not some 18-century relic, this is happening now. New nations have been invented left and right in the 20th century. New nation-states popped up ditto. Almost any small nation without a state of its own craved for a flag-waving moment in history, regardless of being objectively worse-off in the process. It is a reality that a person is labeled with his nation, and either helped to create his own state, granted loans or bombed because of it. And the argument that the whole concept has to be abandoned for the sake of internationalism can be compared with the idea of global nuclear disarmament: powerful countries with a bomb preach to the less powerful about the morality of renouncing it. They don’t suggest that everybody should renounce it. Just like they don’t suggest the whole concept of national states should be abandoned; all they want is for their national state to prevail and their “way of life” to be accepted universally. Perhaps the enterprise of the EU could in time achieve that internationalism, but the thing is that the previous attempt of former Yugoslavia was destroyed from within and more decisively from without and that we do live and die surrounded with nationalism. The solution is not for some small nation to renounce it. The solution is not to meddle into other countries’ affairs by force. Persuade by example and allure instead. Attract, not attack. And BTW, I cannot possibly be labeled a Serb nationalist, because I’m not even a Serb.
Interesting parallels with the Canadian situation, Ian. Yes, you are the ones who could best understand us, having lived the danger of secession. With one crucial difference: the absence of outside meddling. Imagine the horror if your secessionist province had been secretly incited by a friendly foreign power(s), diplomatically backed and advised, armed, financed and prematurely recognized, and finally pronounced a new UN member? And Canada first slapped with economic sanctions for refusing to accept it, vilified by the world press and than bombed into submission? Imagine that the excuse for the bombing of Canada had been your use of excessive force against those who first kidnapped your officials and then started to kill arround, encouraged and armed from without? Lacking all that, your secessionists did not turn into “rebels” and another state did not suddenly pop up on the North American soil. Not such luck for us.
Arguments that those who do not live in the country anymore are unable to grasp what’s going on there (garnered with lowest insults) are baseless. One does not need to regularly visit the old country, nor to speak the language, but to have analytical skills and relevant sources. By refusing to acknowledge the verifiable facts from the Constitution and compare them to what happened, but simply resort to claims such as ‘I was there, you were not’ the discussion is being dragged to the level of kindergarten. Isolated events prove nothing, they need to be explained logically and put into context. On the contrary, I believe that those removed from the heated atmosphere of the ‘old place’ and living in the West are best suited to analyze the situation and present it to the relevant bodies of their respective countries. One such effort was described in the Belgrade daily POLITIKA of 12 Feb, in a long piece titled “Against Political Idiots”, written by one Ms Mila Aleckovic Nikolic, a psychologist and an author living in France, a member of the Presidency of the Congress of the Serbs of Europe. This Congress is an organization of the prominent Serbs living in Diaspora in Europe, lobbying for its mother country within the French administration, collecting and analyzing information, following the work of the ICTY and everything that led to it. Currently they are preparing a legal action against William Walker re Racak, approaching Dr Ranta through their French connections (Ranta’s friends). They are not a paid PR agency, but independent top experts, PhDs and entrepreneurs. Here are a couple of quotes [translated by me]: “The Serbs in the Diaspora for the first time act as a ‘Serbian international crisis group’, legitimized by their democratic rights as European citizens and they have started to examine and question key events and personalities, even without an official ‘mandate’ to do that.” And: “Certain lobbying groups in the world (whose activities we follow) have already criticized CSE. It’s a good sign for us, a sign of our definitive entrance onto the stage of lobbying.”
Grateful for being found smart enough, I’ll go about my further irrelevant trifles that concern the trial in the heading of this forum, and obviously not the world effort to stomp out petit-bourgeois people. Perhaps that effort could be aired elsewhere? (Alas, the one who judged me smart enough is a copy-paste ideologist who ridiculously puts himself in the same sentence/category with a renowned philosopher, so maybe his judgment is not so valid? So, I’ll admit I’m not smart enough, to be on the safe side.) Now, back to trifles.
This time I’d like to turn your attention to 3 articles by Judith Armatta of the CIJ (www.cij.org), titled “Milosevic’s Guilt: Proven or Not? Parts I, II and III”, of 1-3 February 2004. In these lengthy legal treatises she ostensibly merely informs the public of the procedure that is to follow after the Prosecution’s case closes: who will do what, which is the time-table, how the Trial Chamber might drop some unproven charges, and even how a motion for complete acquittal might be filed. In reality, these seemingly innocent informative pieces are interwoven with Ms Armatta’s predictions, wishes and distortions, in accordance with her agenda to help convict the defendant. No wonder, since she’s in the pay of the same sponsors as the ICTY itself (as clearly spelled out in the GUARDIAN piece of 12 Feb. ‘The Milosevic Trial is a Travesty’ by Neil Clark - something already well-known, but finally seeping through into the mainstream media). I urge you to read these 3 CIJ articles: they are really informative as to the goings on at the trial. The agenda jumps up from every other corner, so you’ll be able to recognize it yourselves. Let me give you a taste of it: “law is a subject of different interpretations and applications”; “ultimately, the Court will decide the proper interpretation of the law to be applied”; “application of the law is not a mechanical process”. With such utterances, Ms Armatta almost prepares the public for liberally wild interpretations of the law that are about to happen at the ICTY in this case. Most significantly, Armatta understands the hinge upon which revolves the Indictment: the existence of the Joint Criminal Enterprise, its purpose being the forcible removal of non-Serbs from 3 parts of the country named in 3 different parts of the Indictment. If the Prosecution “proves” this, then Milosevic is guilty, because he provided this Enterprise with material help. All other legal twists and turns, disseminated through 66 counts of the Indictment, hang on that. If there were no Joint Criminal Enterprise, a preconceived evil plan to break YU, expel others and create Greater Serbia, then all else would fail for the Prosecution. Of course, Armatta will say no such thing, but she will continue to muddle waters by talking about how Milosevic must have known for the camps in Bosnia as a part of the system of ill-treatment and how he “intended to further it”. Claiming it and actually proving it are two different things.
Speaking at length about command responsibility and de jure versus de facto authority of the Accused over the military units in two different situations, Kosovo on the one hand and Croatia and BiH on the other, Armatta carefully tries to avoid her agenda peeping out, quoting strictly the Indictment and always using the word “alleged” and “allegedly”, but treacherous brackets appear at the end of that passage, where she argues whether Milosevic did exercise effective control over Mladic and therefore was under obligation to direct him not to attack: “[From the evidence, it appears Milosevic did just that when Mladic was poised to take over Gorazde in 1993.]” Dear Ms Armatta, from the evidence appears nothing of the sort; even if Milosevic did persuade Mladic not to attack that time, this only goes to prove how he, who helped organize material help for Bosnian Serbs in general, used his influence stemming thereby to promote peace. It is a matter of record that sometimes they listened and sometimes they didn’t, to eventually completely break off after refusing the Vance-Owen Plan. But there’s absolutely no proof that there were any persuasions or orders to attack, only persuasions not to attack or persuasions to accept peace plans, one after another.
While talking about genocide, Ms Armatta quoted from a recent decision in the Stakic trial (where the Chamber decided there was no genocide in the Municipality of Prijedor). She hints that the ICTY might just need to stretch the definition of genocide as compared with the one from the Genocide Convention, by including cultural genocide as well. On the other hand, the Trial Chamber in Krstic case decided the intent to destroy men and boys in Srebrenica was genocidal intent, but the thing is now before the Appeals Chamber. And as far as Milosevic is concerned, she happily concludes that “the Accused has been charged with ‘committing’ genocide by means of his participation in a Joint Criminal Enterprise’. Again, that omnipresent Enterprise! If they “prove” he was the Entrepreneur, he would be also “committing” genocide, no less. An ingenious and all-inclusive concept that is, with a vicious circular explanation. With perhaps a slip of the tongue, she even calls it “a theory of joint criminal enterprise”. So, this is no more than that, a fancy theory of the Prosecution, upon which everything else hangs. Thanks, Ms A. for making it so obvious. As for the genocide, she bemoans “a high standard to meet” by the Prosecution, because they have to prove that genocide occurred, that it was the purpose of the Enterprise and that the participants of the Enterprise shared that purpose. Tough. But note how the only thing she did not list as needed to be proven is the very existence of the Enterprise. She duly notes that the Appeals Chamber in Krstic case might after all decide there was no genocide in Srebrenica either, but she quickly informs us that the Prosecution had thought about that loophole, too: in Milosevic case, the genocide charge does not comprise only Srebrenica, but other municipalities as well (Bijeljina, Bratunac, Sarajevo and Zvornik). Ms Armatta hopefully concludes how “the difference may prove significant”. Well done, Ms A.

Vera Martinovic
Belgrade
Yugoslavia