MILOSEVIC TRIAL DISCUSSION ARCHIVE

Is Slobodan Milosevic getting a fair trial?
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• discussion archive

• Sunday February 16, 2003 at 12:37 am
  If that was directed at me, point taken. However, I don't believe I ever stooped to the level of your, albeit deliberately to make a point, extremely exaggerated example. The problem with people like Rita showing up on sites where others are trying to have a serious discussion is that, left to their own devices, as you seem to advise they should be, they keep at it -- they do not stop. I have seen this on other sites. They have to be nailed immediately so that their lies and biased viewpoint are exposed, not necessarily to thos like Rita who instigate this type of interraction (because they are not willing to see anything more objectively), but to anyone else who comes along, who might, finding them unchallenged, believe them to be telling the truth.

  Perhaps it's just an old habit of mine. I have a tendency to rise to every false accusation or misinformed comment anywhere about Yugoslavia because there are so very few fair and/or accurate statements made about it, particularly here in the good ol' USA.
  
  Anna Pullinger
  California

• Sunday February 16, 2003 at 1:11 am
  Five army zones and their borders, in ex Yugoslavia, were not any secret to any prosecutors' country.
  They still behave like Yugoslavia did not exist. Yugoslavian defense was unique (five zones were only there to synchronize defense activities and shall have not influence defense system - they should have accommodate effectiveness of defense) and according to constitutional law it was integral across whole Yugoslavia that makes Milosevic.s point valuable. “TO was under supreme command”- There was ZONO (Zakon o narodnoj obrani) Law of People’s defense that specifies jurisdiction. Vasiljvic must be fairly stupid to conclude otherwise (Is he?). As far as I remember it says: Republic’s executive of TO is responsible for resources and training; He/She is selected by Supreme command,/b> on the recommendation of the republic”

  Obviously Nice and May are blind for it and they are trying to show that there was a “Balkan without laws”
  As Vera noticed General Vasiljevic was a prosecution witness and he tried to deny it.
  Of course he made a stronger case for defense (since he did not have a choice), but only under cross-examination, he forgot to mention how many of his people were extorted and blackmailed by aggressor's (foreign agencies and HDZ) while they were servicing under SFRJ laws, before and during 1991 = That was an open act of aggression too; besides foreign funds and spy agencies activities which were well known. So he answered in the cross-examination things, which will defense prove and document (I have no doubt that they have it). What they do not have are Vasillevic’c people reports. (Extortion’s, contacts with foreign agencies and a cooperation with some of them, like accommodation of hidden shipments of guns, in advance specified routs etc. ) what Vasiljevic must have known.
  There were several ways and intermediaries of importing weapons to SFRJ that were oriented to HDZ:
  Funding and buying from abroad, funded buy HDZ from SFRJ companies stationed in Croatia (looted Majdanpek gold shops etc.)
  Export of shipments that transited through Yugoslavia - HDZ seizure (that sometimes implies first redirection of shipment since it was originally done through port Bar in Montenegro, or Ploce (usually originated from Czech Republic, later they would agree on compensation)
  Organized help from foreign Governments (Canada - Kikas, Hungary - Spegelj)
  East Germany, and later Iran and Saudi Arabia - through Adriatic see under NATO control, (Who finance that?)
  “Caritas” Humanitarian help - Switzerland, Italy, Austria. Germany - mostly financed by Vatican
  direct deposit to “Zagrebacka Banka” funding mostly came from Croatian emigrants organization and used to facilitate new established Croatian ministry of internal affairs.(Weapons and accessories originated mostly in Czech republic, Canada and US.
  
  
  Pero Peric
  Canada

• Sunday February 16, 2003 at 1:14 am
  Correction
  
  Pero Peric
  Canada

• Sunday February 16, 2003 at 1:28 am
  Nationalism: devotion to one’s nation; patriotism; the advocacy of national indendence.

  -------------

  From Newsweek:

  First two paragraphs omitted:

  BTW Cirjakovic’s first name Zoran.

  QUOTE:

  the meantime, Nordland and Cirjakovic say Serbian nationalism is once again "intruding on politics." Ultranationalist Vojislav Seselj ran a "frighteningly close" second to incumbent Yugoslav President Vojislav Kostunica in elections late last year. The impassioned "rants of an international plot against the Serbs" by former President and indicted war criminal Slobodan Milosevic, now on trial at The Hague, draw larger television audiences than popular soap operas. And even Serbia's pro-Western Prime Minister Zoran Djindjic, the man who sent him there, "has lately been playing some dangerous cards [in trolling] for right-wing nationalist votes."

  Most observers dismiss Djindjic's stance as pragmatic politics in a right-wing Serbia. "Trouble is, that's what brought Yugoslavia down in the first place," Nordland and Cirjakovic write. They point out that Milosevic was another "pragmatic" politician "who bid for power by playing a cynically nationalist hand."

  END QUOTE

  Is nationalism a good thing or a bad thing.

  In my neighborhood there are many homes honoring their country with the American flag posted outside their door.

  There are SUVs and other vehicles with flags waving from the windows, or perched on top of the vehicle as if they are dignitaries whirling through the neighborhood.

  There are flags in shop windows, schools, post offices, on pajamas, underwear, tee shirts, trousers, earrings, handbags, shoes, jackets,sweathers, sheets, pillow cases, towels, and even in the eyes of baby dolls.

  Signs of “God Bless America” and “Proud to be American” being carried about by (Nationalistic?) Americans in or on their vehicles.

  The Bush bunch plan on straightening out Iraq and installing a democracy? Are we the only ones who know what is best for the world? Is this a form of Nationalism?

  I am not waving a flag, I do not wear red, white and blue earrings nor do I wear any of those other ridiculous items. American, Serbian or whatever, as far as I know there is no law against being patriotic. God, country and family.

  Newsweek put in months of investigation of Clinton’s sex life. Enough said.

  
  
  Kathryn Love
  SJC
  USA

• Sunday February 16, 2003 at 3:30 am
  Vera, what an excellent report my thanks. The Prosecution is all too obvious in revealing that its primary task is not to prosecute Milosevic at all, but rather rewrite history (which has been confirmed by a number of leading figures in the tribunal such as Apartheid Judge Goldstone). Maj. Gen. Vasiljevic, therefore, was not presented to the court to provide testimony against Milosevic at all, but rather attempt to provide statements for the official record which would deny that Croatian JNA and Croatian TO officers and soldiers were traitors to the state of Yugoslavia. Such perversely blatant efforts to deny reality and rewrite history in the name of the US State Department; to justify aggression against a sovereign state, to apologize for the murder of tens of thousands and the forced deportation of millions of others, to vilify and spread hatred against an identifiable ethnic group, these are among the activities of the ICTY which deserve to be tried by the ICC. Judge MI6 and Mule-faced Nazi Inquisitor from CH in particular deserve to be in jail for multiple life sentences. Normal people don't feel safe knowing that Hannibal Lecter works for the UN Security Council's private "court".
  
  Nico Tarzanovic
  CAN

• Sunday February 16, 2003 at 7:42 am
  

  Kathryn,

  I share your feelings about patriotism and 'nationalism'. And to remind others who might have some doubts, there is nothing wrong with a word 'nationalism'.

  The Serbs allowed Communism to break them up so much in fifty years that they allowed a new pupet government and NWO plutocrats to pull a 'quick one' on them so they are willing to disown everything within their roots, to disown their national identity, and to feel ashamed of the word 'nationalism'.

  The Jews have survived thanks to their historical conscience. They have survived for two thousand years through deep religious feelings nurturing a most powerful national identity and that is what made their survival possible. No ethnic group should feel ashamed of the word 'nationalism.' Nationalism is a wonderful word. Whoever loves his own people is also capable of loving other people.

  Back to word 'patriotism'. George Bernard Shaw used three concepts to describe the positions of individuals in Nazi Germany: intelligence, decency and Nazism.

  He argued that if a person was intelligent and a Nazi, he was not decent. If he was decent and a Nazi, he was not intelligent. And if he was decent and intelligent, he was not a Nazi.

  An updated version of Shaw's three concepts, based on our Balkans experience (including 'kangaroo' court in the Hague) would be:

  1. If a person is decent and a pro-government, flag-waving, American patriot, he or she is not intelligent.

  2. If a person is intelligent and a pro-government, flag-waving, American patriot, he or she is not decent.

  3. And if a person is decent and intelligent, he or she is not a pro-government, flag-waving, American patriot.

  The public ignorance certainly is the case within America, and statements 1 and 2 above explain the reason for it. A very high percentage of Americans are simply kept in the dark. Even if they lead relatively decent lives they are total fools for the professionally crafted propaganda that saturates the corporate mass media.

  And those American patriots of the second variety create that propaganda: they may be intelligent, but they surely are not decent.

  
  
  D(ushom) S(arajlija)
  USA

• Sunday February 16, 2003 at 10:12 am
  

  My intention is not to side-track the judicial focus of this site to geo-politics, but today I just cannot help myself. The following is a compilation of other people’s wisdom spiced with some of my own rumblings. Have fun!

  During break-up of Yugoslavia and colonization of the Balkans it was the “Great Serbia, genocide, ethnic cleansing”. Today in the case of Iraq, it’s “weapons of mass destruction, the resolutions and debates in the United Nations Security Council, the UN inspections”, - the same kind of propaganda for the purpose of manipulating and deceiving public opinion.

  Most critics know that war with Iraq is about oil. The significance of the Iraqi oil reserves, the second largest in the world, has been widely documented. Control over these supplies would satisfy the energy demands of the US for a long time and lessen its dependence on increasingly unstable Saudi Arabia.

  In the case of war in Kosovo, it was all about control of oil reserves in Caspian Basin and Central Asia. Until the end of 20th century the only export routes from these areas to the industrialized world were through Russia. Building alternative pipelines to Western Europe, and eastward to the Asian markets, was the highest priority of the American and European oil giants.

  However, it appears that Slobodan Milosevic had other plans for oil shipment through his country that were more to his liking (and Russia’s) and was unwilling to cooperate with this scenario. This sounds like Monday morning armchair quarterbacking, but being a highly intelligent individual as he demonstrated in The Hague, what was Milosevic (and 12 million Serbs) thinking when he stood up against Big Oil?

  From today’s prospective, it's not difficult to notice that all countries or regions which happen to be an impediment to oil transportation routes from Caspian Basin and Central Asia towards the East and West have been subjected either to US military’s direct or indirect interference or to an all-out war: Chechnya, Georgia, Kurdistan, Yugoslavia, Bosnia, Croatia, Macedonia and Afghanistan. Thanks to these wars the US has its military bases in the Persian Gulf, Bosnia, Kosovo, Croatia, Macedonia, Albania, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Pakistan and Afghanistan. Not to mention the base in Incirlik, Turkey. The US forces are also present in Georgia and Azerbaijan.

  Piping oil and gas from Caspian Basin to the Black Sea, shipping it by tankers across the sea and then piping it again across the Balkans to the Adriatic Sea is not the only route, but it is surely one of the best. In 1996, the US Trade and Development Agency granted permission for the initial feasibility study for AMBO project to the US firm Brown & Root Services. Brown & Root had built military facilities in Hungary, Croatia, Bosnia and, most importantly Kosovo, where they completed the construction of Camp Bondsteel. This camp, located very near the pipeline route, enables the US not only to police the pipeline route, but also to ensure that it runs through a US-controlled area so that its rival Europe continues to be dependent on it for energy supplies. AMBO pipeline is scheduled to be operational by 2005. The US Trade and Development Agency agreed to fund the project in March 2001.

  These findings, in conjunction with the controversy surrounding the alleged 'genocide' in Kosovo, and the way NATO conducted the Rambouillet negotiations before the bombings (where it put on the table an agreement written in terms that no nation would have ever accepted), forbid anyone to claim that the West acted in Kosovo on a sudden rush of altruism and that The Hague’s “kangaroo court” is a legitimate judicial institution.

  However, oil is but one aspect of the wars waged in the Balkans and now, Iraq. The US is pursuing a much more far-reaching and ambitious goal. It is striving for control of the world (sounds conspiratorial, doesn’t it?) in the interests of American corporations. This requires that not only Yugoslavia and weak nation of Iraq, but also America’s economic rivals in Western Europe and Japan be forced to submit to its will. Control over the world’s main energy resources would provide the corporate America with a powerful lever against its competitors in Europe, Japan and China.

  This drive for political and economic reorganization arises not simply from the greed of one or another government or corporation, but from the fundamental contradictions inherent in the system of global economy. The modern form of production, which binds together billions of people around the globe in mutual interdependence, cannot be reconciled with the system of nation states with their firmly defined borders. The incompatibility between globalization of world economy and the nation state compels the US to divide and re-divide the world by force. This was the basic cause of the two world wars that devastated large parts of the globe in the last century. Germany, whose dynamic productive forces were suffocated by the European nation-state system, launched two attempts to reorganize Europe. Today, the US is trying its hand at an even greater challenge: America seeks to reorganize the world.

  And again, what was Milosevic (and 12 million Serbs) thinking when he stood up alone against this kind of New World Order?

  While colonizing the Balkans together with US, in the case of Iraq, France and Germany are trying to curb the US by diplomatic means. Their stance has nothing in common with a principled opposition to war. Neither the German nor the French government is questioning the right of the great powers to move against Iraq. They merely fear that too strong an American dominance will inhibit their own interests in the region. In defense of these interests, just like in the case of Yugoslavia, they are cynically playing with the lives of tens of thousands of Iraqis. If the US won’t be stopped, they are prepared to agree to a second UN resolution that sanctions war, so as not to miss out on the division of the booty.

  The disagreements on the fate of Iraq are merely the harbinger of a direct and open conflict between the colonial powers themselves. But the peace movement should not forget that one couldn’t fight colonialism by supporting one colonial power against the other.

  It is equally wrong to leave the decision on war or peace or ‘world justice’ to the UN. Far from representing the “world community”, the UN constitutes-like the World Bank, the International Monetary Fund, kangaroo court in The Hague and other “international” institutions-a tool of the colonial powers.

  Like in the case of Yugoslavia and Iraq, UN has been employed by these powers to force their will upon the world’s people.

  
  
  D(ushom) S(arajlija)
  USA

• Sunday February 16, 2003 at 11:00 am
  Just read this on Freereplic. Interesting in regard to Milosevic's stand on the Srebrenica events.

  If you read about the happenigs in Srebrenica that are described by BBC correspondent Misha Glenny then you know why all files relevant to Srebrenica are kept secret for 50 years: In 1997 Mr. Zumach from the German newspaper Tageszeitung writes the following about the files relevant to Srebrenica in "UN tribunal criticizes the French 'total blockade'":

  "In the New York central headquarters of the UN, all files relevant to Srebrenica have been classified "secret" for the next 30 - 50 years and are not even available for the tribunal. This decision was taken at the demand of the permanent members of the Security Council, the USA, France and Great Britain, in reference to their protection of the secrecy of government documents."

  Original German text:

  "In der New Yorker UNO- Zentrale wurden alle Srebrenica- relevanten Akten für die nächsten 30 bis 50 Jahre weggesperrt und dürfen auch dem Tribunal nicht vorgelegt werden. Dies geschah auf Verlangen der ständigen Sicherheitsratsmitglieder USA, Frankreich und Großbritannien, die sich auf ihre nationalen Geheimschutzbestimmungen für Regierungsdokumente beriefen."

  Tageszeitung, "UN-Tribunal kritisiert französische 'Totalblockade'", December 17, 1997

  While colonizing the Balkans together with US, in the case of Iraq, France and Germany are trying to curb the US by diplomatic means. Their stance has nothing in common with a principled opposition to war. Neither the German nor the French government is questioning the right of the great powers to move against Iraq.

  Sarajlijo, I think you are right on target. Here in Germany it's interesting to see the 'peace movement' opposing war without UN-resolution. The same 'peace-movement' lead by Schröder and Fischer was the loudest supporter of the US&German lead NATO agression against Yugoslavia in 1999. How come they didn't see the need for a UN-sanctioned war of agression against Yugoslavia in 1999? Hypocrisy? Maybe, but I guess we are wittnessing a geostrategic and political game of historical proportions.
  
  Aleks Stajic
  Germany

• Sunday February 16, 2003 at 12:38 pm
  This Los Angeles Times did not ignore the peace marches of February 15. How could they?

  A big “Bravo” for all those who participated. Stop it before it starts.

  C. Rice appearing on “Meet the Press” mumbled something about the UN not getting its act together with Kosovo and implying US had to save the day. Kosovo is still the shining example of success and Tim Russert is a shill for the Bushies. I turned it off.

  I have saved a cartoon wherein two cavemen with clubs are surrounded by rubble. The caption “All hail to our glorious Serbian victory. Well, now, that leaves only you and me...” Drawingboard/Oliphant. Serbia, Iraq, Iran, North Korea, Libya, Sudan, and where will our next enemy be....maybe Oliphant will have to change the caption of his cartoon.

  Anyway the world came together with its people holding hands against another bombing. Three cheers for these good people. I only wish they had done this for Serbia as well.

  
  
  Kathryn Love
  SJC
  USA

• Sunday February 16, 2003 at 2:05 pm
  Not only Condi making that ill advised Kosovo statement today, but also Colin last week, McCain, General Clarke also today.

  McCain is easy to Email, when I figure out how to contact the others and find Freerepublic threads on the Sunday News tv shows, I make my views known.

  But that's where we part company in that I support W on taking on 'terrorists' and their supporters. The 'invisible caliphate' and world assassins have to be rooted out piece by piece, and Iraq is a logical place to start. One reason is that restructuring of Iraq's government will be sufficient. If need be, when the Saudis are called to account, it will be more complex.

  I don't cotton to people who run for the 'tall grass' and refuse to face down an evil Islamists based movement that has entrenched itself, vowing to destroy civilization as we know it.
  
  J P
  US. Wis

• Sunday February 16, 2003 at 2:28 pm
  "In the New York central headquarters of the UN, all files relevant to Srebrenica have been classified "secret" for the next 30 - 50 years and are not even available for the tribunal. This decision was taken at the demand of the permanent members of the Security Council, the USA, France and Great Britain, in reference to their protection of the secrecy of government documents."

  It is appaling that the truth can be kept secret.
  
  Dan B
  Canada

• Sunday February 16, 2003 at 2:29 pm
  I forgot to add the tibunal would probably not even want these documents, since it would go against the charges.
  
  Dan B
  Canada

• Sunday February 16, 2003 at 2:59 pm
  Katharyn,

  I agree with you about nationalism not necessarily being something bad; in fact, it is our main strength in holding out against globalization, which would, if it could, swallow up the world and put all of it under the thumbs of only the few mightiest.

  The irony, though, when it comes to Milosevic, is that there is no evidence that he ever played the nationalist card. His speech in Kosovo, often twistedly and perversely pointed to as an example of nationalism, was just the opposite -- in that speech Milosevic called for living together peacefully in a multicultural state.

  The corruption we all have to contend with in world politics is beyond tolerance and overwhelming. I wish I could move to another planet.
  
  Anna Pullinger
  California

• Sunday February 16, 2003 at 6:35 pm
  What did General Vasiljevic actually say that was supportive of the indictment? As I said before, vague assumptions and hints were the majority of what he said; one example being the TO case explained (he assumed Milosevic was in charge, several TO units from Serbia were in the Eastern Slavonia, ergo…). The simple truth was the JNA top brass took that decision (as they were entitled to, the TO being subordinated to the JNA) to build up their strength which was insufficient due to the poor influx of reservists. The General himself explained that much in some other context.

  His next tackle was the third- or even fourth-rate hearsay, which, although officially admitted by the ICTY rules, was really pathetic coming from the General. He looks manly, well-built and military-style tidy even in plain clothes, he's extremely careful with his wording to avoid any semblance of the uneducated military man stereotype, and surely resorting to gossip could be connected with idle old women at the market, not with him. But, he resorted to gossip all right. Here's one example.

  Nice exhibited an order from Jan. 1992 by the Presidency of SFRY, dealing with the engagement of the volunteer units currently operating without being subordinated to the JNA & TO, giving them 30 days to comply or to withdraw from these territories. The General then told a little story of a certain Colonel who told him that the General Panic told him to tell Radovan Stojicic - Badza to discipline Arkan, to which Badza said that he would take over Arkan's unit within the Police. In his cross-examination, Milosevic made a brief caricature of it: "You said that someone told you that Badza said…" Vasiljevic took offence: "When you put it that way, you make it sound banal…" Well, my General, what to do, it is rather banal.

  Media reporting is a kind of hearsay as well and the General resorted to this quite often, which was again a banality that he could only blame himself of. The example was his 'testimony' about Seselj's role in sending volunteers: as I mentioned in one of my previous posts, the General's sole detailed info was a brief rehash of a few-sentence Seselj's interview, incorporated into the BBC piece 'The Death of Yugoslavia'. Milosevic mocked him pitilessly: "Does this mean, General, that you're testifying on the basis of your watching BBC? Very well, if time permits us I'll ask you what else have you seen on BBC."

  Another case was when Nice asked the General about the 'incident involving the man known as Arkan' [his arrest in CRO with some weapons and subsequent release]; he again used the media as his source, saying 'according to what was made public by the information media'. When pressed by Nice to say who was behind the supply of weapons, he added that 'Well, as I understood it, behind it was, in a way, the MUP of Serbia' [Police], and that he knows that the Minister of Interior of Serbia intervened with his Croatian counterpart that Arkan be released. I consider this to be just a slander and you know why? Because he never elaborated how he came to know that and what were his proofs and sources. And because someone who has to quote the media as his source of info at the witness stand is, well, unreliable to tell anything about the event discussed, even if he safeguarded himself by carefully saying 'as I understood it' and 'in a way'. This is either just a hint, or gossip, or slander, but hardly a hard evidence.

  The next method of testifying displayed by Vasiljevic could be named 'distortion of proportion'. The General would tell a story, most probably quite truthfully, but would fail to explain the scope and the importance of it, thus leaving it open for Nice to present it as omnipresent and all-important. But, only a question or two by Milosevic would suffice to put things into proportion and place the story in its proper perspective. The perfect example of this is the story of the arming of the Serbs in CRO and B&H by the JNA. When asked by Nice, the General named two officers who were involved in the attempts of arms removing from the JNA & TO depots and transferring it to Slavonia. Both were prevented. Aware that this is next to nothing, Nice pressed the General to say what one of those men said about his 'superiors' ordering him to do that. After much hesitation, Vasiljevic uttered the name of the General Panic as the source of 'permission'. Nice proceeded to ask about the type of automatic weapons that some paramilitary formations had, and the General was squeezed to say that, although he 'didn't have concrete information', he remembered that in Slavonia there were Thompsons, which were 'trophy weapons' and the 'TO of Serbia had weapons of that kind.' There you are, the proof! The JNA officers smuggling guns to the Serbs on order by their superiors, paramilitaries having weapons from Serbia! But, Milosevic directly asked the witness: "You were mentioning some officers involved in arms distribution. This did not go through any official lines from the JNA top, but rather by some homeland connections, is that not so?" Vasiljevic simply answered 'yes', not daring to repeat here the slander about the General Zivota Panic, probably aware that it sounded ridiculous to connect the very top officer of the JNA with the failed attempt to smuggle few guns. The stress is on the word few, because that was what it was about (Vasiljevic himself said later on that it was only 'a couple of weapons'), and the witness conveniently forgot to mention it in his examination-in-chief, thus distorting the proportion of the event. Milosevic also addressed the Thompsons, 'for which you assume to have come from the depots in Serbia'. Yes, the General actually said 'So most probably this type of weapon came from the warehouses of the TO of Serbia.' Again, assumptions and hints. He tried to come out of this by claiming he knows about one particular depot, but that sounded feeble - should this not had been elaborated as a key evidence during the examination-in-chief, if there was any substance in this?

  Yet another example of distortion by omission in this testimony was a document tendered, a request by some local Bosnian Serb authority to the JNA, listing weapons they would like to obtain from them. Yes, it was merely a wish-list, for which the General himself said it was 'megalomanic'. Nice tidily tenered it as evidence, without any elaboration. He actually said: "Be that as it may, what we see here is that this is assisting in the arming of the Bosnian Serbs; is that right? just say yes or no. Well, no… yes… This is arming the Bosnian Serbs and indeed… Your Honour, I think actually the document speaks for itself and I'll move on." How do you like such clarity and courtroom tactics?! The witness never answered the yes-or-no question, the judges didn't peeped and the circus again just moved on. Milosevic addressed it, reminding the list contained even 6 helicopters, and asking: "My question is the following: was this request granted?" Vasiljevic: "No." Milosevic: "Well, what does such a non-granted request prove?" Vasiljevic: "Nothing. I only said that it was a request." Milosevic: "But you didn't say it was not granted." You see the pattern? Not outright lies, just unfinished stories, hints and lack of context.

  Other 'hard evidence' that the General provided were the following:

  Captain Dragan was 'apparently one of their sources' [of the State Security Service]; he later changed it into him being the 'man of the DB'.

  Someone whose name has been redacted from the transcript told him that 'as far as he knew' 'Badza was in charge' of some of the volunteers in Slavonia.

  There were problems with the call-up of the reservists in the JNA and the 'accused used to say that he would not force anyone to go to war'.

  Nice tried to plant evidence and to lead the witness re the appointment of one General Djujic 'who was, I think, an active JNA officer appointed commander of the Krajina Territorial Defence, and I think you said probably appointed by the Personnel Administration, but I'll just check that, if I can.' Milosevic objected and reminded that when Milan Babic testified it came out that he personally appointed Djujic, and not the Federal organ, and that Nice is leading the witness; May let Nice rephrase the question, saying 'Mr Nice will not lead him.' [meaning this time around?].

  There were, as the General put it, two types of TO: legal and illegal, but the two were constantly deliberately muddled by Nice, which was allowed by the General's vagueness.

  He spoke at length about the volunteers organized by various opposition political parties, and when Milosevic asked him later on whether his own Socialist Party (SPS) ever formed any, the General protested 'you are reducing it to political parties'. Milosevic retorted: "Well, it was you who said the 'opposition parties formed these units'. And he proceeded to point out a distorted logic here, since it is not contentious that those opposition parties tried to topple the existing regime: "You claimed that the Police organized those units, which would mean that the Police would be against me." Vasiljevic: "I didn't claim that the Police organized paramilitary units of the parties." Milosevic: "If you do not claim that, we may close this matter right away."

  Vasiljevic was asked to check in his personal weapons entering the SSNO building 'in accordance with regulations' and Arkan was allegedly admitted once carrying a Heckler; when the General complained, he got a playful answer by the guard of 'Well, you're not Arkan'. Btw, the IWPR's article (Chris Steven, Tribunal Update 229) changed almost everything in this gossipy story: it became the Interior Ministry building and it was the General's recollection of how he entered just 'after Arkan had walked into the building' - it would be too embarrassing to admit that the General was just spreading gossip and that the witty guard just answered appropriately to the touchy General.

  The DB of Serbia infiltrated opposition political parties, so the info, 'to all intents and purposes', should have been available to Milosevic.

  The retired General Mamula had political interests, becoming a member of the League of Communists for a time and after he had retired. Vasiljevic avoided to meet him once, let his deputy see him and learned that Mamula wanted some security officers to be sent to Lika, Banija and Kordun; the request was denied.

  There were things called 'operational groups', 're-subordination', "district command', 'area command' etc. etc. and Nice kept them coming in a sinister order, leading nowhere, so that May had to say 'we can read it'.

  Nice tendered a document with only one paragraph translated into English, Milosevic objected, May ordered the whole thing should be translated. The letter was insignificant, anyway. Only that one paragraph, isolated, could be construed as if the JNA established some units in Krajina. It turned out it was perfectly legal, because these were no paramilitary units, but regular Army units following the reorganization from 1987.

  There was a meeting on 26 Apr. 1992 in Skopje between Branko Kostic (from already formed Federal Republic of YU), General Adzic and Izetbegovic, where the agreement was reached that all the JNA officers citizens of B&H should remain there, those who were non-citizens to move to FRY and their citizens in the FRY to move to B&H. There were interviews held and some officers within the FRY were being 'persuaded' to comply, unsuccessfully. Some even returned from Krajina units back to FRY. Some maintained personal contacts with their old units. This, in Nice's parlance, constituted the 'support of VJ to the Armies of RSK and RS'. Nice even wanted to press the witness to say that the JNA actually commanded the operations of these 2 armies, but the General said 'I cannot give a precise answer to that question'.

  Then, there were the 'famous' letters by Martic and Goran Hadzic to Milosevic, asking for support, but I've already wrote about that.

  A document authorizing the transfer of war booty was being tendered, but the problem is it was unclear who issued it and who signed it: Nice first claimed it was somebody from the Serbian Interior Ministry, which was illegible, then he changed his claim, 'it was signed by the General Mile Mrksic', who was a Commander of the 1st Tactical Group [Army], so which was it, after all? It was left hanging, and the General could not help because at the time indicated he was already retired.

  The General managed to clarify for the benefit of the judge Kwon the significance of mysterious acronyms KOS, KOG, UB.

  The General stated that the members of the YU Presidency were third-class politicians, whereas the accused was "a very strong political leader, …very authoritative… and able to influence'. But, his own superior, General Kadijevic, was in no way subordinated to the accused.

  Re Kosovo, Nice put a suggestive question about the General's visit there, asking him whether he saw destruction of rural areas, dead cattle and civilians, to which Vasiljevic answered he saw no dead civilians, and the rural areas were abandoned [not destructed] and that the situation was normal in towns.

  He described one case were war crime had been reported, he came to investigate, and it was the case of 2 volunteers nicknamed Oto and Dugi, killing 6 civilians, their unit incorporated within the VJ unit under command of lieutenant-colonel Stosic; all 3 were charged and tried in Nis.

  And that was, believe it or not, all that this 'most important insider' had to testify against Milosevic. Sad, isn't it? My report on the General's generous contribution to the cause of the Defence will follow after the cross-examination is finished Monday.
  
  Vera Martinovic
  Belgrade
  Yugoslavia

• Sunday February 16, 2003 at 6:46 pm
  Mr. Aleks Stajic,

  Thank you for providing us with the direct quote from the German paper Tageszeitung.. I am puzzled however. Why is that information classified? Could you provide us with some remarks from the paper as to the reason for it.

  I thought that UN operations are more or less open to the public.. Why the secrecy?

  I have always regarded Srebrenica as a hoax, a propaganda ploy. Somehow a cold blooded execution of 7000 or 8000 men was something Germans did during the war in Yugoslavia. Not the Serbs. If anything Serbs may have taken some abrupt selection of Muslims suspected of the participation in Naser Oric activities. But not a cold-blooded execution of 7000 men.
  
  D. Jovanovic
  USA

• Sunday February 16, 2003 at 7:58 pm
  Anna,

  Your point that there is no evidence demonstrating Milosevic as a nationalist demagogue, unlike so many others is very important.

  But of course let's bear in mind that this is only important insofar as it pertains to Serbs, and exclusively Serbs. Anti-Serbian politicians in the Balkans (like the rest of Europe) can make any statement they like, no matter how hateful or outrageous and get away it.

  And while it is the case that so much of the Western intellectual elite is determined to remain silent on this taboo subject, it's interesting that the existence of this massive exercise in historical revisionism was acknowledged by none other than one of its leading functionaries, PR spinmeister James Harf, of the infamous Ruder-Finn PR group. Recall what he admitted in a very telling interview with French journalist Jacques Merlino . Hardcopies of Merlino's book, Les verites yougoslaves ne sont pas toutes bonnes a dire" ("Yugoslav Truths are not all Good for Telling") Albin Michel, Paris, 1993, appears to be rather difficult to find in the United States at present. I hope someone can shed some light on this subject.

  Omission and censorship were blatantly obvious in NATO-ite media coverage of the Balkans throughout the 1990s. Everything from the entire history of World War II to the racist diatribe in the 1991 Bosnian parliament (all archived *and hidden* by major Western embassies) was placed "under wraps" so as not to interfere with the effort to portray anti-Serbian forces in the Balkans as "angels" or "victims".

  For example, the New York Times was typical in refusing to publish anything about WWII Croatia until 1997, or about two years after Croatia had finished the Krajina phase of the same pogrom which started in WWII and never really stopped. Up until that point, the New York Times, like all other major American media followed instructions, portrayed the Balkans as a violent mosaic of inexplicable "ancient hatreds" - though exactly how ancient nobody cared, or dared, to say. Of course, this article was not followed by any lengthy editorials examining the issue of whether Croat society required "de-Nazification" or any such other unpleasantness. Such processes might interfere with IMF-ordered "reforms". There might have been, at most three articles which followed the stunning "expose" of Croat's "wartime past" since the 1997 article. Today, Croatia's police forces and extremists enjoy even more free license to carry out attacks on Serb civilians than even the Kosovo Albanians, who can always count on the complicity of the various imperialist interests concerned to protect, and even apologize for, their barbarism.

  Agit-prop organs like CNN preferred to feature on an almost weekly basis soft-interviews with the likes of Haris Silajdzic, who loved to demonstrate the sort of hollow, yet fiery, rhetoric he mastered as a student of propaganda and terrorism in PLO camps. Silajdzic, by the way, went on record to claim 200,000 Muslims (no Serbs and Croats) had been killed "mostly women and children" (of course) as far back as February of 1993! His propaganda was never challenged by anyone at CNN, which hardly surprises.
  
  Nico Tarzanovic
  CAN

• Sunday February 16, 2003 at 8:59 pm
  

  From the very beginning it was obvios that this Slobo-Trial would be a mockery, but the longer it takes the more it is becoming a slob trial or rather slobber trial.

  The media called this trial the most important trial cince Nurenberg. I agreed with them, but only partly. I thought it was the most important trial since Middle Ages, since the time of the inquisition, since the last Holy Office's trial, whenever it was. They do not mantion it, or do they? If you are a kind person you have no idea what I think of them.

  Prosecution =Inquisition

  The Tribunal=The Holy Office James Joyce wrote a poem almost a hundred years ago. He never really had a chance to prove what he states in this poem. Some people have had one. "The Holy Office" Where they have crouched and crawled and prayed I stand, the self-doomed, unafraid, Unfellowed, friendless and alone, Indifferent as the herring-bone, Firm as the mountain-ridges where I flash my antlers on the air. Let them continue as is meet To adequate the balance-sheet. Though they may labour to the grave My spirit shall they never have Nor make my soul with theirs as one Till the Mahamanvantara be done: And though they spurn me from their door My soul shall spurn them evermore.
  
  j m
  l
  s

• Sunday February 16, 2003 at 9:01 pm
  Sorry for the mass.
  
  j m
  s

• Sunday February 16, 2003 at 9:11 pm
  

  MODERATOR

  Please cut out my two prevoius pposts.

  SORRY

  From the very beginning it was obvios that this Slobo-Trial would be a mockery, but the longer it takes the more it is becoming a slob trial or rather slobber trial.

  The media called this trial the most important trial since Nurenberg. I agreed with them, but only partly. I thought it was the most important trial since Middle Ages, since the time of the Inquisition, since the last Holy Office's trial, whenever it was. They do not mention it, or do they? If you are a kind person you have no idea what I think of them.

  Prosecution =Inquisition

  The Tribunal=The Holy Office

  James Joyce wrote a poem almost a hundred years ago. He never really had a chance to prove what he states in this poem. Some people have had one.

  "The Holy Office"

  Where they have crouched and crawled and prayed

  I stand, the self-doomed, unafraid,

  Unfellowed, friendless and alone,

  Indifferent as the herring-bone,

  Firm as the mountain-ridges where

  I flash my antlers on the air.

  Let them continue as is meet

  To adequate the balance-sheet.

  Though they may labour to the grave

  My spirit shall they never have

  Nor make my soul with theirs as one

  Till the Mahamanvantara be done:

  And though they spurn me from their door

  My soul shall spurn them evermore.
  
  j m
  s

• Sunday February 16, 2003 at 10:56 pm
  vera

  thks.....waiting for your 3rd report after the Monday cross....then we'll send it into c-space

  :) :)
  
  AP V
  NY
  NY

• Monday February 17, 2003 at 12:31 am
  Ana:

  Another planet? The politicians/troublemakers would follow and would contaminate that one as well. The best thing to do is remember this is our country as well as theirs. We have paid our taxes and contributed to the growth and we will hold on like a dog with a bone.

  In time, the truth will come out. Time passes quickly. People age and the young take over. Eventually there will be some asking for the truth of the bombing of a sovereign nation. There will be questions on how Camp Bondsteel came to be? Did the United States who was acting as a joint member of Nato during the bombing confiscate the land from Yugoslavia for this large camp while the other members of Nato got nothing? How come? I thought this was a joint operation.Ten years from now you will not be able to get away with telling some young ambitious, honest historian, “We got the Camp because we were the superpower, and we had the biggest and best bombs to drop.”

  It seems they never tire of beating up on the Serbs. I am going to continue if it takes forever, to write letters, make phone calls, and speak up for the Serbian people. I have a file folder with articles, newspaper clippings of Serbs leaving the Krajina, letters from the Whitehouse in response to mine, copies of my letters and all of this to be handed down to the next generation of Serbs.

  I am certain it will change. It will take time and probably a long time but then again you never know, because we have seen things we never could have imagined.

  If you get a chance to go to another planet, turn it down and fight on.

  Kathryn --------------------- Stars & Stripes are reporting from Camp Bondsteel. United States civilian guards will be placed at the entrance gates of the Camp replacing the dwindling Kosovo Force of soldiers.Now hiring.

  
  
  Kathryn Love
  SJC
  USA

• Monday February 17, 2003 at 12:41 am
  Nico mentioned Haris Silajdzic.I am not sure but did he move to the US and take with him about $600,00 from Bosnia which was meant for the reconsruction?The names all sound alike to me and I am not sure if he was the one but I think he is.
  
  Kathryn Love
  SJC
  USA

• Monday February 17, 2003 at 1:37 am
  Kathryn that was Muhamed Sacirbey (Sacirbegovic). Though you are probably not far from the truth, Silajdzic is just a much a thief as the rest of them only he never fled abroad but stayed in Sarajevo and is the most politician of that criminal group that once ruled along with Izetbegovic during and after the war up until a few years ago.
  
  Igor Jaramaz
  Canada

• Monday February 17, 2003 at 3:33 am
  AP V told us about the KFOR arresting the KLA leadership. I must say I never read this in any of the media outlets. Yet it must be true. The mainstream media has only told us that the someone (Carla?) promised to indict the KLA leadership, but we have not been told if that promise was carried out. If it was, it wasn't necessarily carried out by Carla herself. I don't know how independent of Carla the UN courts in Kosovo are.

  Should we bother about the mainstream media, or should we prefer to let justice be done? This KLA indictment/arrest is a case in point. The fact that CNN keeps quite doesn't mean that something good is not happening.

  It is of course hard to settle for the unreported good that is happening, when the media spin has recently gone on overdrive. The spin doctors are doing their absolutely very best, including the JURIST homepage (I refer to the Chua article).

  The Economist article fits in the pattern: Vasiljevic was mentioned, but not his testimony, only his name and his value as an "insider". It seems that an "insider" can only tell incriminating stories about Milosevic. Why else would he be an insider? Being "inside" something means that there was some joint (criminal) enterprise which he could be a part of. And since being part of such a "joint criminal enterprise" is all that it takes to convict Milosevic (this is expressly stated in the Croatia and Bosnia indictments in § 5), Economist has done a great service for the prosecution just by calling a witness an insider.

  Gogol pointed out that the Vasiljevic testimony was suddenly held in open session. Did they get some negative feedback on their "private sessions"? This is getting eerie. The Vasiljevic testimony gives us a glimpse of the reasons that may have motivated the private sessions.

  But you see, abstaining from private sessions until the storm has settled is not good enough. The intention to deceive is obvious, and according to the old Latin maxim that I have been repeating, once fraud is detected, it corrupts everything. This is just what Vera said: once a document is shown to be doctored, it should be discarded instead of being "amended". Any child can understand that.

  I would think the recent media frenzy is crystallized in the article in WSJ on February 12. This was about the possibility that Saddam Hussein might be tried in a tribunal that would be similar to the Sierra Leone tribunal. This article put actually the finger on a much larger problem by keeping strangely silent about one thing.

  The article told the readers about the US frustration with the slow pace of the Rwanda and Yugoslavia tribunal. It said that the Sierra Leone tribunal has the advantage of being funded directly by the US and some other states.

  Now, what is missing? The article never even mentioned the ICC! And that is going to create a heck of a mess in Iraq. The article didn't even refer to the possibility that Hussein might be tried by the ICC.

  Let us suppose that the British, the Germans and the French participated in the "post-conflict arrangements" (as I think they're called) in Iraq. First source of tension: the Europeans are under the jurisdiction of the ICC for their conduct in the war, and as some official has already admitted, their investigation, including that of Blair, is a 100% certainty. I guess the fact that the Americans are free from the ICC jurisdiction is a slender consolation to the Europeans. They might even protest.

  The Americans have some support for the Axis of Evil rhetoric insofar as Iraq and Syria refuse to ratify the ICC Statute. However, how does that make Israel and the US look? They haven't ratified the statute either.

  So should the post-conflict administration ratify the ICC Statute for Iraq? But if it does, then the Americans can be handed over to the ICC, if they are caught on the Iraqi soil. So, can the ICC Statute be ratified only on the condition that Iraq concludes a bilateral immunity agreement with the US?

  But if the ICC Statute is ratified (with or without the immunity agreement), what does that make of the US-sponsored Saddam tribunal? It seems there can't be two competing courts with the same jurisdiction. That sounds like the Wild West stories about Roy Bean.

  Those are some of the problems. But I guess the ICC is severely battered already. The German candidate for the ICC prosecutor was nixed because she was called politically disasterous: she criticized Bush by comparing him to Hitler. To me, that shows that the ICC prosecutor must not offend the Americans, because the Americans get offended, they will never join the ICC. But what would be the point in the US joining the ICC, if the prosecutor must not offend the Americans? That would seem that the ICC would have no power over Hitler, if he is of a certain nationality.

  Blazej from Poland! Didn't you already know that the ICTY is a legal organ? If in doubt, please consult the Decision on the Defence Motion for Interlocutory Appeal on Jurisdiction made by the Appeal Chamber on 2 October 1995 in the Tadic case. Since no illegal organ could rule on its own legality, the tribunal has shown it is legitimate by making this decision.

  I think the greatest legal mind was Roy Bean. I learnt about his career in one of the Lucky Luke comic books.

  JP, I am still in agreement with you. However, it is a fact that Bush goes on with his religion of peace speeches. The reason he says he wants to attack Iraq are the weapons of mass destruction. Or maybe it is not even an attack, but self-defense. That would explain the hubbub about the defense of Turkey.

  This WMD rhetoric is a bit like the guesswork about May. Is he an MI6 agent? He might be, he might not. But let us disqualify May, before he has the chance of becoming an MI6 agent, if he already isn't.

  But the point is that there is one power that has WMD for sure and that is the US. So if Bush wants us to trust the US, why does he have to keep lying?
  
  Jari Nousiainen
  Finland

• Monday February 17, 2003 at 3:47 am
  

  Good morning folks,

  Perhaps the audio engineers at the ICTy would like to know their video stream is mute. NO AUDIO

  
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Conn., USA

• Monday February 17, 2003 at 3:58 am
  

  DANKEWAR
  
  G C
  Conn., USA

• Monday February 17, 2003 at 4:47 am
  not been arrested.
  
  Peter Taylor
  Herts/UK

• Monday February 17, 2003 at 4:49 am
  The Leaders of the erstwhile KLA have not, repeat not been arrested.
  
  Peter Taylor
  Herts/UK

• Monday February 17, 2003 at 7:50 am
  More of Karlo del Ponte's lies and empty promises.
  
  Ryan Mircic
  UK

• Monday February 17, 2003 at 8:07 am
  NEWS:

  The general confirmed today that Milosevic never ordered any crimes in Kosovo, he confirmed that Milosevic said that all must be punished and that he never heard of a plan of Greater Serbia-at least not from Milosevic.
  
  Dan B
  Canada

• Monday February 17, 2003 at 8:45 am
  Further, the witness agreed with every Milosevic on every point. The prosecution must have been very angry I could imagine. He confirmed the story of Dubrovnik and the burning of tires, as well as accoring to the general nobody at the time in the JNA, planned or participated in the formation of the VRS, and he even mentioned that Head of the JNA General Staff, even thought that that was impossible.

  SO what do you think? How baddly beaten is Nice?
  
  Dan B
  Canada

• Monday February 17, 2003 at 8:55 am
  I have a plea:

  Since there are many on this Forum who know much more then I and who are well informed, maybe they would have some information on the ex-senator Robert Dole.

  Does he have some Albanian origin?

  Where does his hatred of Serbs come from? IS it only due to the Albanian immigration financial support or are there some deeper reasons.

  Does anybody have a wherewithal to investigate this?
  
  D. Jovanovic
  USA

• Monday February 17, 2003 at 9:10 am
  DJ,

  Full name: Robert Jezebel Dole Born: July 22, 1903; Russell (western Kansas)

  Former Leading Republican in US Senate

  Former US presidential candidate

  Albanian origin

  His foreign policy adviser was Ms. Mira Baratta, Croat-American lobyist in Washington D.C.
  
  Dan B
  Canada

• Monday February 17, 2003 at 10:09 am
  

  The best senator money can buy.

  
  
  G C
  USA

• Monday February 17, 2003 at 11:02 am
  Found it!

  Nato bombed Chinese deliberately - The Observer, Sunday October 17, 1999
  
  Alexei Gorulski
  Brussels
  Belgium (more a state of mind than a palace)

• Monday February 17, 2003 at 11:03 am
  HTML correction?
  
  Alexei Gorbulski
  Brussels
  Belgium (it\'s not cold, it\'s freezing)

• Monday February 17, 2003 at 11:11 am
  

  The Observer is a very useful mail box for CIA delivered news. It does not fool too many.
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Conn., USA

• Monday February 17, 2003 at 12:37 pm
  Mr. Dan B.,

  I knew all that except:

  Full name: Robert Jezebel Dole Born: July 22, 1903; Russell (western Kansas)

  Long time ago I wrote a personal letter to Mira Baretta and got in trouble with Secret service.

  Do you know more detail of Dole's Albanian origins?
  
  D. Jovanovic
  USA

• Monday February 17, 2003 at 12:42 pm
  

  From B92:

  Kosovo Albanians arrested for Hague Tribunal

  PRISTINA -- Monday? Two Kosovo Albanians have been arrested on the orders of the Hague Tribunal, Radio Television Kosovo reports today.

  The two unnamed suspects were arrested in a joint UNMIK and KFOR operation which began earlier this afternoon. B92 learnt earlier in the day from unofficial sources in Kosovo that a senior official of Hashim Thaqi?s Democratic Party of Kosovo, Fatmir Limai, was to be extradited to the Hague today.

  Former Kosovo Liberation Army officers Suleiman Selimi and Sami Lustaku are expected to follow tomorrow.

  
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Conn., USA

• Monday February 17, 2003 at 12:54 pm
  This is what I found from the archive (February 14):

  "Kfor has arrested virtually the entire KLA leadership cadre for murdering Albanian civilians."

  "Commander Remi and his notorious deputy in charge of policing disloyal Albanians Gashi were arrested for murders of Albanians prior to March 23rd, 1999. Remi killing spree was focused in and around the Pristina area. He is evidently responsible for the murder of the prominat Albanians Dr. Zelenjhau (sp?) and the publisher Mr. Maloku (sp ?)."
  
  Jari Pekka
  Finland

• Monday February 17, 2003 at 12:56 pm
  I mean:
  
  Jari Nousiainen
  Finland

• Monday February 17, 2003 at 2:20 pm
  

  In 1966 I travelled in Greece and Turkey with a Finn called Pekka.
  
  G C
  USA

• Monday February 17, 2003 at 2:26 pm
  

  More from Kosovo, ITCY:

  NATO-led peacekeepers have detained three people in Kosovo believed to have been indicted by the United Nations war crimes tribunal in The Hague, the military alliance said on Monday.
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Conn., USA

• Monday February 17, 2003 at 5:02 pm
  Mira Baretta is not just any Croatian/American, her father was an Ustashi emigre who publicly defended Andrija ARtukovic. As far as Bob Dole is concerned, Albanian origin or not I know that he fought in Southern Italy in World War II and that part is full of Arberesh, Italianized Albanians. Joe DioGuardi is one of them, he for example up until the 1980's thought he was a pure Italian...
  
  Igor Jaramaz
  Canada

• Monday February 17, 2003 at 6:38 pm
  NATO-Hague is sacrificing some pawns again for PR purposes? What is the purpose of indicting and prosecuting terrorists who were allied with, and protected by NATO forces? We'll have to wait and see. Looking at the precedents, which are those of the few Croats and Muslims indicted by the tribunal so far, we can most certainly anticipate the Hague to make a "ruling" which inexplicably refuses to limit istself to the case before it, preferring instead to incorporate NATOized revisionist history and making it part of its decision. This being of course, the primary motive for and purpose of the "court". And so, we can anticipate the Hague, in the case of any Albanians indicted by the tribunal for crimes in Kosovo, to state its views on everything from the status of Kosovo to vindicating both terrorist groups, NATO and the KLA, for their actions against the states of Yugoslavia; Serbia, and Montenegro.

  It became obvious from the very first day that the Hague's agenda in the trials of Izetbegovic-Army members Zejnel Delalic, Esad Landzo, Hazim Delic, and Zdravko Mucic for their crimes against Serbs at the Celebici concentration camp was not to seek justice on behalf of their victims at all. Rather, it was to 1) rule that the conflict in the former SFRY republic of Bosnia-Hercegovina was an international conflict and not a civil war and 2)vindicate the entire leadership of the Izetbegovic-Army above the rank of lieutenant for any knowledge of atrocities in the more than 100 concentration camps and prisons under its control.

  Did everbody here have as easy a time as I did in predicting the course of the entire farce which was "The Indictment of Janko Bobetko"? A Croatian General is indicted for crimes he committed some 8-11 years earlier, long after many of the victims have either died, or simply disappeared. He is indicted only after falling seriously ill. The Hague announces shortly afterward that it agrees with his main defender, Mesic's CRO, that the poor Butcher of Lika is too sick to stand trial.

  It reminds one yet again of the case of the Croat Himmler, Andrija Artukovic, Interior Minister of the NDH (WWII Independent Croatia). Saved from prosecution by the CIA-Vatican Ratline, Artukovic was protected by Washington for over 38 years before being turned over to the SFRY only after falling so ill that it became obvious to doctors at the U.S. Naval Hospital where he was receiving treatment, that he was only weeks away from death. The State Department understood that Artukovic was little more than a vegetable and that by extraditing him, the U.S. government would be freeing up a space at one of its Naval Hospitals and passing on the burden of Artukovic's care and treatment to a foreign state. Whatever Artukovic did in the past as Interior Minister of Croatia, such as oversee the genocide of hundreds of thousands of Serbs and Romany, was only important insofar as this would serve as the grounds for a ruling in favour of extradition.
  
  Nico Tarzanovic
  CAN

• Monday February 17, 2003 at 7:59 pm
  Pero, Ana, and others........ i do not associate myself with Croatian politics anymore......... my suggestion was that from the outside.....as in.....from the west.....people assume you are just bickering, and that in today's political environment, they couldn't give a shit. ......whereas, from inside croatia, people are proud of their ustasa past, because to them NDH stands for self-determination/freedom, as perverse it may sound to both you and I.....therefore, mentioning the virtual genocide of Serbs there will be firstly discounted and not believed, and then, will generate a reaction, as if from someone being attacked ....(if you attack the myth of an historic legend.....you attack the pshyche of those who believe in it......and unfortunately, we have seen that many croatians would rather express this reaction through violent and often deadly means).... ........thus the point is......if you leave out these arguments you can avoid heated exchanges and can forge new futures for the region more easily....(even though it may be the truth you are conveying).......and once the dust has settled, then people can begin to admit their wrongs in the past, and their children can be brought up in an environment of greater tolerance to others....... ......by doing this, you are actually showing yourself to be better than these people.
  
  Ivan Kokotovic
  australia

• Monday February 17, 2003 at 8:33 pm
  Mr. Kokotovic,

  You seem to advocate that because the West sees Serbian-Croatian issues as simply bickering, it is best to forget and ignore the whole thing and espouse the “new future”.

  In 1945 I was fifteen when the war ended and started to believe that this indeed should be the be best forgotten. Although our small apartment in Belgrade was full of my relatives from Zagreb, describing in hush hush voices what horrors they had seen, some 30 of them having been killed in Lika, I fullheartedly espoused the Tito’s logic: Brotherhood and Unity.

  Look what has happened! No sooner than Tito died the Croatians with German help armed themselves and forcefully separated themselves from Yugoslavia. In so doing they evoked the memories of the past, blatantly and deliberately. Do not tell me Serbs attacked them. Borovo, 90% Serbian was to be forced to fly “Shahovnica” an Ustasha flag.

  So what do you now advocate? The repeat of the same story?

  I believe now that a mistake was made. Croatians should have been de-Nazified the same as the West Germans. That would have removed the Croatian pride in their Ustashe past.
  
  D Jovanovic
  USA

• Monday February 17, 2003 at 8:37 pm
  Re: Arrests of KLA leadership

  The KLA/KPC operates(ed) in 7 operational zones. Prior to June 1999, only 4 of these zones really had any KLA activity. The KLA commanders of the active zones were known as Remi (Llap OZ), Ramush (Pec OZ), Drini (Prizrn OZ), and Shala (Mitrovica OZ). Current Status of these 4

  Remi - Prison
  Ramush - Prison
  Drini - dead
  Shala - last heard of commanding KLA/KPC units in US zone

  So 3 out of 4 of the KLA 'best' Generals are out-of-the-picture.

  One should note that both Remi and Ramush were the most powerful KLA commanders. They were the only KLA units which fought larger than squad sized encounters. Without Remi or Ramush, the KLA would have been irrelevant.

  The occupation forces appointed Remi & Ramush as co-heads of the KPC. Ceku of course continued on in his figure head role. Recall that Ceku only entered the picture in Jan 1998, when the prior head of the KLA proved unacceptable to Washington. Ditto for Thaci.

  In addition to Remi and Ramush getting thrown into prison, many of their sub-commanders were also arrested and remain locked away. Gashi who was Remi's deputy is perhaps the most notorious of all the sub-commanders arrested.

  Make no mistake, Kfor actively worked with the KLA. Kfor paid KLA/KPC salaries. Kfor trained KLA/KPC cadre. Kfor appointed, fired, and promoted KLA/KPC individuals. Kfor issued orders to local KLA/KPC units. Kfor had full command responsibility for the KLA/KPC.

  It was only in late 2001 and throughout 2002 that KLA/KPC murder and white slaving got to be too much for even the cowards of Kfor. But it took almost 3 years before Kfor pulled the plug on the worst KLA leaders.
  
  AP V
  NY
  NY

• Monday February 17, 2003 at 8:48 pm
  My information is that Hashim Thaqi, Ramush Haradinaj and Agim Ceku were the senior military Leaders of the KLA responsible for its many atrocities. And that Thaqi and Haradinaj are now legislators in Kosovo’s Assembly set up by the UN where each heads a political party. Ceku is the head of the KPC, the UN version of the KLA.

  Please correct me if I am mistaken?

  None of these men have been arrested.

  The principal Leaders of the erstwhile KLA have not, repeat not been arrested.

  Incidental to discussions on Iraq this evening the Bishop Oxford referred to the “just” bombing of Serbia to prevent the Serbs survival against Islamic terror in Kosovo: as did US Deputy Defence Secretary Wolfowitz. Last Saturday a Messianic Blair referred to his “just” cluster bombing of the Serbs to prevent their survival over Islamic terror in Kosovo no less than three times in his New Labour speech in support of war on Iraq without a specific mandate.

  Blair purports to fight al-Qaeda, Wolfowitz is a Jew and the Bishop of Oxford is a senior member of the Anglican Christian Church?

  Blair the Pathetic supports al-Qaeda in Kosovo where he has a track record of stating massive lies about the Serbs. His fraudulent dossier on Iraq is as typical of the man as is his phoney fight against al-Qaeda in Iraq. Wolfowitz: we know where he’s coming from on Iraq - but a Jew supports Islamic terror including units of Mujahedin and al-Qaeda in Kosovo?. And what is the Bishop of Oxford on? Does he really support the Balkan atrocities committed by the KLA/Mujahedin/al-Qaeda alliance? Does the Christian Bishop really gloat with al-Qaeda Islamic terrorists?
  
  Peter Taylor
  Herts/UK

• Monday February 17, 2003 at 8:50 pm
  

  Drasco,

  Germany, West Germany was never denazifiedinstead NATO became the Nazi's heirs. This is a fact, not just an opinion.
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Conn., USA

• Monday February 17, 2003 at 9:31 pm
  Mr. Charlemagne,

  Just for amusement! Try to post Mr. Kokotovic post verbatim on the Nation Chalenged or any other NYTimes Forum. It will not be accepted!?

  I tried to post it for others to see how perverse Croatian thinking can be. But I could not.

  Whether West Germany was truly "de-Nazified" or not , I will not argue about. At least some attempt was made. But not in Croatia
  
  D. Jovanovic
  USA

• Monday February 17, 2003 at 10:37 pm
  

  Vera,

  Many thanks for selfless reports. They are now my only source of information on the ‘trial’. Following it live became to depressing (I just kept on repeating ‘this would never stand in a British court’ and so on) while getting mainstream media digests seems simply pointless. Once I get time I will certainly go trough some transcripts but, until than, you are my only light. (If you don’t mind me asking, where does your excellent English come from?)

  Also, many thanks to all the other regular contributors that make this modest but important forum possible.

  Regarding so called ‘Rita’, I did, as soon as she appeared, suggested that she was Albanian. It was a tiny, and obviously missed, post. This fact, if it is true, certainly does not disqualify ‘Rita’ from participating in the discussions, but her posts beg to be ignored. I appreciate people who try to counterbalance her propaganda, although I wonder whether that is just ‘casting pearls before swine’ and whether the energy wasted on such characters could be put to better use. After all, our main topic offers some serious challenges. (I hope this will be seen as a comment, not an attempt to moderate.)

  Maybe some comments on Seselj indictment? First ready and willing indictee! How about that.
  
  ROBERT D
  LONDON
  UK

• Monday February 17, 2003 at 11:06 pm
  Chicago Tribune reports Milosevic might not live out the trial and compares him to Eichmann.

  Quote:

  “Justice was even swifter for Adolf Eichmann,”

  Another report regarding the arrest of three of KLA‘s finest is interesting.

  Quote: “It named the suspects as Haradin Bala, Isak Musliu and Agim Murtezi. None of them were part of the senior KLA leadership.”

  The article did not say ...... furthermore senior KLA leadership will never be sent off to the Hague.

  
  
  Kathryn Love
  SJC
  USA

• Monday February 17, 2003 at 11:33 pm
  

  “The International War Crimes Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia is now in session” That is how it started, like many times, but one could sense the tension in the courtroom. The prosecutor, the judges, the “accused” and General Vasiljevic were entering the court. Like many Mondays, it was supposed to be a slow day at the Tribunal, but it was not true for this Monday as the accused turned the tables once again.

  “Was I able to influence general Kadijevic?” asked Milosevic “Until the end of 1991, no.” answered the witness.

  Milosevic continued and asked “Very well, was I able to influence General Adzic…?” “No” answered the witness.

  The witness had now officially crossed the floor and Nice was not happy about it. General Vasiljevic did not want to change sides, but he was forced due to the immense pressure of the cross-examination. The general wanted to defend the JNA, his integrity and his position as the best-informed man in the army, and he certainly did that to the dissatisfaction of Nice.

  Milosevic turned his attention to Kosovo. “Do you remember that general Dragoljub Ojdanic said that crimes should not be covered up and that their sources ought to be punished?” enforced the accused.

  “Yes, that was the 16th of May 1999, evening. It was a meeting at your place, but YOU said that, and not general Ojdanic” the witness corrected him.( to the accused’s advantage). Milosevic, then again, turned his attention to the events in Bosnia, referring to the Markale incident.

  The accused also mentioned the attack in the JNA colony in the Dobrovoljackoj ulici (volunteer street), Markale I and II, and he accused Alija Izetbegovic and Ejup Ganic of being responsible for these crimes. The witness confirmed that Izetbegovic first denied the existence of the National League of the People, which he later admitted to after he was presented with evidence.

  “This witness is here to talk about Kosovo, and not about Bosnia!” uttered the seemingly nervous Nice.

  A big surprise then “This is all relevant” said May.

  The general was one of the few witnesses that had the courage to look Milosevic in the eyes and it seems to be easy when one is forced to tell the truth.

  “All right, can it be said that over all these events that there was an explosion of Islamic fundamentalism that had primarily turned itself against the Serbs?”shot Milosevic

  “These are global issues, and I would rather talk about ethnic passions.”, but then May interfered “ You have heard his answer, he does not wish to deal with the question in your way. We’ll take a break-20 minutes.”

  We are back, “all rise”. The drama continued “Yes Mr. Milosevic!”

  To be continued..
  
  Dan B
  Canada

• Monday February 17, 2003 at 11:51 pm
  As I promised, here is just one serious contribution from the General Vasiljevic to the cause of the Defence, or rather to the cause of his former Army, his former country, his people and himself. In fact, almost whole cross-examination was one solid brief for that cause, but for a few sharp clashes with Milosevic over who sat where at which meeting, who was invited and who had fever, which general was whose favourite and who was forced into retirement, how the Police failed to forward orders through its chain of command on time pissing the Army off and how the State Security tried to get the upper hand of the Army Security. Milosevic slightly mocked the General about his avoidance of name-mentioning and the urge to escape into private sessions on any such occasion. The General stroke back by mentioning the famous 'travelling circus in which you took part' [the chain of meetings between all 6 Presidents of all the Republics, always changing their meeting place and ostensibly trying to solve the crisis peacefully]. Other than that, the two men were in perfect harmony throughout. That's right, Dan, Vasiljevic confirmed almost everything Milosevic said. And yes, Gogol, May seemed interested, overruled Nice's objections twice re questioning about the CRO and B&H matters and gave Milosevic additional 4 hours tomorrow for his cross-examination.

  But, before I begin with the General's passionate brief, I simply have to go to the end of today's session first, when Milosevic read a letter from an interested local observer as a reaction to the General's testimony: the person who wrote was the aunt of the JNA soldier Utrzan, captured from one of the attacked barracks in CRO together with the large group of his brothers-in-arms, put in a prison, tortured, killed with a bullet to his head, delivered to his family in a tin coffin, exhumed subsequently to be able to establish the circumstances of death… The aunt only wrote to Milosevic to complain about General Vasiljevic wrongly claiming two days ago in The Hague courtroom there was no prison in Rakitje, CRO, because that was where her nephew was kept and killed. See, people are paying attention to every word, words are expensive and all this will be remembered and evaluated eventually by the silent many. The General reacted to the letter with the utmost consideration, said he is not personally aware of the case described, but that it is consistent with the pattern throughout CRO at that time, so he is certain it's true. And Rakitje was just one of the places mentioned off-handed by the General when he tried to prove Milosevic wrong in such a small matter as naming all the temporary prisons in CRO where the JNA soldiers had been kept (he claimed Rakitje was a training camp).

  Milosevic kept his questions within the pattern CRO - B&H - Kosovo, only occasionally combining two or all three areas whenever they were naturally linked by, say, the same action of arming their forces or the same movement of their troops. The General kept answering smoothly, at times almost not needing questions at all. Few times he even checked himself by saying that 'maybe I'm going too wide', but nobody, not even May, interrupted him; Milosevic just added next question when needed. His recurring formula was 'according to the operational info obtained', meaning that he was dealing only with the data confirmed by the Army Intelligence work; he had no problem whatsoever to admit from time to time that he has 'no information about that particular matter'.

  I have to limit myself to one segment only: the arming of CRO; I leave to you to read when the transcripts arrive the equally stunning B&H segment of this cross-examination, with details about how everything started and how Muslims shot their own at the very beginning. The Kosovo segment corroborated Radomir Markovic testimony, gave numbers of dead attributed to the VJ and to the MUP at one point and confirmed trials for war crimes back then.

  The following has been established re CRO: Back in 1990, on 9 July, the Croatian party HDZ and the Slovenian coalition DEMOS had a meeting, discussing how to destroy the JNA; another such meeting was held in January 1991.

  In mid July 1990 the first armed units were formed in CRO, and even the Catholic Church had to give its evaluation for each volunteer; all the convicts from several prisons were released and joined in and the training camps were established. The Belgrade press reported of the illegal establishment of the National Guard Units [ZNG; the members are called zenge], so some 50,000 Police identity cards were printed subsequently and distributed to the HDZ members to try to cover this up, making ZNG look like Police. They were armed from the contingent of the weaponry smuggled from Hungary starting from the end of Sept. 1990. Although they pretended to be Police, they didn't study any rules and regulations first, but immediately proceeded with live ammunition shooting.

  The Croatian General Spegelj, as soon as he was appointed the Minister of Defence, dismissed 20 top-ranking Serb officers.

  High officials of HDZ Glavas and Mercep formed groups for silent liquidations in the Eastern Slavonia, with 100 rifles and 300 kg of explosive. One Zvonko Ostojic was killed after participating in a TV show where he mentioned something about that. One of such groups was in Osijek, called Hrvatska uzdanica, headed by one Damir Horvat.

  There were 106 attacks against the personnel and facilities of the JNA in CRO between 1988 and 1991 on the record, including all kinds of provocations and even arrests of Army personnel by the Police. Since August 1990 the full-blown attacks were recorded.

  On 12 August 1990, one Branislav Petricevic together with the local Catholic priest distributed rifles to the villagers around Sibenik. The President of the Split municipality did the same on 18 October 1990 and there were also the groups for silent liquidations established, supplied with special daggers for the purpose.

  The illegal arming had several channels - Hungary, Bulgaria, Romania, Austria via Slovenia, Italy, Czechoslovakia, Uganda. The first major discovery was the Hungarian channel on 10/11 Oct. 1990. There were also 2 ships arriving with weaponry, 'Lipa' with 8 containers declared as whisky and cigarettes forwarded by ZAGREBTRANS and 'Carolina' in January 1990. In one of the ships from Romania in Aug. 1991 there were 50,000 Kalashnikovs and anti-aircraft guns; another ship was prepared and paid for. There were some 5,000 pistols Zbrojovka brought from Czechoslovakia and a plane from Uganda organized by one Kikas, a Canadian citizen, in 1991, with 620 automatic rifles, explosives and sabotage equipment. The Italian channel was busted due to the contacts between two Generals, Vasiljevic and Ramponi, and 5 arms smugglers were arrested in Genoa. The General only could not remember when directly asked about the possible (probable?) channels from Great Britain. One high British Foreign Office official gave early warnings re 'Lipa' ship, though. In all, there were 6 channels for illegal arming discovered for CRO, 1 for SLO, 1 for B&H and 1 for Kosovo. The Hungarian intelligence service participated actively; the Bulgarian authorities gave their silent consent. The total amount of money in those illegal channels was in the neighbourhood of USD 192 mil.

  Here Nice tried to prevent this torrent of info demolishing his case: "The relevance of these questions is dubious." But May actually said that they had allowed questioning about the arming of the Serbs, that this is indeed beyond the statement of this witness, but they'll allow it, because it is relevant. And he proceeded by asking a question himself about the money involved! The General said that due to the Hungary channel being busted, one part of the money remained unused within Hungary and a lawsuit is currently under way [CRO is trying to retrieve its money].

  The situation in CRO escalated: the Croats got arms, started to use it 'irresponsibly', the local Serbs got scared, started to procure hunting rifles as the only thing available on the market, distributed some 1,800 rifles and raised road blocks. Two cows had to be sold for one rifle.

  After the first Croatian arms channel was busted (11 Oct.), the meeting of the Federal Presidency was scheduled to deal with the matter, but one of the members was absent and the meeting was rescheduled for 9 January. Silly Borislav Jovic shared the info, though, and Mesic brought it back to CRO, where there was a general shock in the power structures about the extent of info against them. They even tried to retrieve the weapons, but the rank and file wouldn't let it go. The General was particularly pissed off because his undercover man was being endangered, because still active.

  When the Order by the Presidency on general disarmament came, all the automatic weapons from the Serbs were returned and the barricades removed. The Croats returned, however, only 147 rifles, just 11 of them being from the Hungarian purchase, the others a mere junk. On 19 January Mesic asked the deadline to be prolonged for another 48 hrs. Instead of returning weapons, they issued a mobilization order. At that time, the Army Intelligence had been already in possession of the famous Spegelj videos.

  There were 19 hrs of video and some 120 hrs of audio recordings made, spying on Croatian officials plotting against the JNA and only small part was used to produce this TV broadcast, combined in parallel editing with the participant's public statements on the issue, confronting the public and the secretive. The General clarified the procedure in detail to May, at his most eager request. Spegelj denied the authenticity of the video at first; only much later he admitted being careless with one man, who filmed him. The General personally organized and took part in filming, took the tapes to Belgrade and back to Zagreb again. This piece of video has been already played in the courtroom by Milosevic when Mesic was there. The General quoted one line by Spegelj from the video re planned killings of the JNA officers in their homes: "All is to be cut down, no questions asked whether male or female."

  After this video was broadcasted on national TV, Tudjman promised disarmament at the Presidency and on 26 Jan. even publicly stated such intention. The next day he went to the state visit to Austria and when he returned, he publicly stated the opposite: it was not the HDZ that was being armed, it was the Police; the JNA 'shall not go on arresting civilians' in CRO. A warrant was out against General Vasiljevic.

  The Army Intelligence did its part, investigated, proceeded to legally charge few petty officers, arrested and tried some 'for participating in the armed rebellion', prepared everything for 40 conspirators altogether. The Presidency even made a decision to proceed against Spegelj (subpoena, arrest warrant), but nothing materialized. On 12 March, the Military proposed to the Presidency to proclaim the state of emergency. This failed, due to the absence of the Slovenian member, Drnovsek. The General asked Jovic later on why Spegelj was not arrested and the answer was: "And what would have been different even if he were arrested?!" To the direct question by Milosevic 'was it not a duty of the Security Service', the General answered feebly: "Well, I don't know…" And this is how nothing was done and the country was left to go down the drain.

  Things went from bad to worse. Out of total 2,700 captured JNA soldiers in CRO, 85% were within their barracks and 15% in their apartments, hardly anybody was outside or in combat. The attacks against the JNA patrols, vehicles and facilities started throughout CRO and officers and soldiers were being killed. The General named names, places, dates.

  The Albanians living in CRO started to collect volunteers for the nucleus of the KLA and 2,000 were organized and trained there, some of them former JNA officers.

  Along the way, the General also debunked 3 former 'witnesses', Milan Babic, Mustafa Candic and Slobodan Lazarevic. The first one was 'ill-informed' about a Croatian helicopter forced to return by MIGs, the situation which he explained as 'the legal State in CRO was being prevented from functioning' and in fact this was an unauthorized flight, carrying special units hollering Ustasa songs over the radio. The second one lied on the stand about Milosevic demanding written statements of loyalty from some JNA Generals, which he allegedly heard from Vasiljevic himself. The General calmly said: "I categorically deny ever saying such a thing." And the third one was a nobody of whom no one ever heard in the Security Services; he was most certainly never an Army officer and his alleged 'contact' was serving abroad all those years. What will the judges do: some of the witnesses lied, would you believe?!

  I'm tempted to go on and on, because there was hardly any dull moment in this cross-examination, but this post is already too long and I have to go now. I have to admit, it was painful at times to listen this dignified soldier describe his Army being destroyed by the bullets of secessionists and by the criminal indecisiveness of politicians. He must've forgotten where he was and why when he spoke about that. Mirko Klarin of IWPR claimed that testifying in the Milosevic trial became an issue of personal prestige in certain Belgrade circles. I'm afraid that another media image would be more appropriate (I've read it somewhere recently): their names are being dragged through the mud. I'm truly sorry that General Vasiljevic was forced to testify, but it was useful as well because a piece of truth appeared. Not the Official Truth.
  
  Vera Martinovic
  Belgrade
  Yugoslavia

• Tuesday February 18, 2003 at 3:28 am
  Certainly their names are being dragged through the mud, but is the media going to be any cleaner after that? On the contrary, such a prestigious publication as The Economist has now been dragging Vasiljevic through the mud. Or is it The Economist that is being dragged through the mud?

  The General's memory loss about the UK smuggling channel is revealing. Why such a sudden memory loss? May and Nice are not running the show in their capacity of representatives of the British government, or are they?

  If such a smuggling route ran through the UK, it would give the lie to the British excuse to shut down the British PR company used by the Serb government to do the propaganda for them. You remember, the British used the pretext that the PR firm was paid with money made on sanction-busting. After the Vasiljevic testimony this pretext seems ludicrous.

  Hungary was mentioned a number of times. I couldn't help thinking about Soros. Why, if he is such a benefactor - and I really think he has the interests of the former East Bloc at heart -, why does he contribute to the demolition of Yugoslavia? I think this dilemma answers itself: Soros is Hungarian. There are Hungarians in Serbia. Hasn't Soros supported the Hungarians in Romania too (I can't remember if Vasile said something about that)? Just a thought.

  In general, it is very important not to be too cynical. The arrest of the KLA commanders cannot be just a media show, because the media has told us nothing about it. I don't think AP V mentioned when Remi & Ramush were arrested: the earlier the arrest took place, the tighter the media blackout, which would suggest that this thing is for real.

  On the other hand, it seems the bigshots (though not necessarily the biggest names) Remi and Ramush will not be extradited to The Hague. Yet they cannot be held in prison just for nothing, so I guess they will be tried in the UN courts in Kosovo.

  I think the media circus is taking place somewhere else. It seems that it is the KLA late-comers, the Ceku and Thaci gang, that are being transferred to The Hague one "circle" at a time. This will follow the "insider" pattern, while buying Thaci and Ceku themselves some time.

  These KLA indictees may well be a publicity stunt, but on the other hand, it would be very wise to keep an eye on Remi and Ramush. Even Richard May seems to consider the defendant's case "relevant", and if Remi and Ramush are tried in Kosovo, the defendant's case is water-tight. Or maybe May is being so Nice to give us the impression of even-handedness now the first KLA arrivals are being shipped to The Hague.

  The UN courts in Kosovo operate in the shadow, but they seem to have power even over the ICTY. Remember, it was the Kosovo Supreme Court's ruling that there was no genocide in Kosovo that probably forced Carla to seek the genocide in Bosnia. That was why the Milosevic had to be indicted for Croatia and Bosnia after his transfer. On the other hand, this sort of hierarchy of previous judicial rulings, if there is one, seems a bit preposterous, because the ICTY doesn't mind what cases are pending at the ICJ.

  As Vera concluded, some of the witnesses are lying. If Candic didn't lie, then Vasiljevic was lying.

  But if someone weren't lying, what would become of the trial? Let us go back in time. Michael Rose concluded that the casualties in Sarajevo were self-inflicted. This is now what Vasiljevic seems to be saying in his testimony. But the UN General Assembly concluded in its report on Srebrenica that these injuries were not self-inflicted, contrary to what had been held. So who is lying? Rose worked for the UN too.

  The UN decision to keep the Srebrenica documents secret must be seen against this background. It is doubtful whether the UN can do that under any circumstances, but it is grotesque to close documents that are relevant to numerous criminal cases at one of its own courts! One can apply Louise Arbour's principle here: tampering with evidence amounts to an admission of guilt. I guess the UN is now counting on its immunity so it won't be charged in ICTY for a cover-up (this is indeed punishable by the ICTY Statute). You see, heads of state have no immunity in ICTY, but the UN personnel is a different matter. To show how much stronger the immunity of the UN personnel is, one only has to bear in mind that the Dutch police isn't too interested in what is going on in the ICTY, because ICTY has immunity. On the other hand, maybe the ICTY would charge the Dutch government for its possible war crimes, if it attempted anything like that.

  One has to keep an eye on what is happening outside the tribunal. The Iraq denouement will possibly mark the end of the judicial frenzy altogether. Maybe the Americans have thought a solution to marry the ICC jurisdiction with their own Saddam tribunal, but I can't see how that is done.

  If Iraq ratifies the ICC Statute, the Americans will want to conclude an immunity agreement with Iraq. But what does such an agreement imply? Doesn't such an agreement stipulate that the US will not hand Iraqis to the ICC in The Hague? But what if somebody else tries that? Are the Americans bound to intervene and stop such a transfer, which the Brits, for instance, would be required to carry out? Then the Americans would be obstructing justice!

  And why would the Iraqis sign such an immunity agreement, when it only means a transfer to the American Saddam court? Wouldn't they rather be tried in the ICC than in some American Saddam court? The ICC would at least give them the opportunity to try the indictees in their own country. Maybe this is the only time last week's WSJ article referred to the ICC, no matter how implicitly. The article concluded that the Iraqis would prefer to try the indictees themselves in their own country. And why not? The Americans make no secret that their motives are purely political: they don't like the old guard "percolating" back into the Iraqi society, as the WSJ put it.
  
  Jari Nousiainen
  Finland

• Tuesday February 18, 2003 at 4:16 am
  

  Nearly 45 minutes in today's session already in close session. Subject: the army command line.

  Mr. Milosevic's face did not look too approvingly.
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Conn., USA

• Tuesday February 18, 2003 at 4:52 am
  

  And now after a 15 minutes hiatus, there they go again, privatesession.

  This must be, the natural rhythm of this court, private, close, one, two, march on !

  Could it be, could it be possible that when May (the month) 16 arrives and the prosecution would have finished its case the court will say: "Very well, after having heard the most preposterous claims this case is dismissed, you don't have to defend yourself Mr. Milosevic, you're free to go."
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Conn., USA

• Tuesday February 18, 2003 at 5:09 am
  

  THe general did not know Macedonia was part of Serbia before the Second World War, he said so, when Mr. Milosevic asked him about the peaceful secession of Macedonia where the JNA was not attacked.

  Is that possible?
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Conn., USA

• Tuesday February 18, 2003 at 5:14 am
  Now that I think of it, probably George W. Bush does not know the state of Louisiana belonged at one time, not too distant a time, to France, France the ungrateful as the gutter press likes to refer to her in this ever increasingly euro and franco-phobic climate.
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Conn., USA

• Tuesday February 18, 2003 at 5:24 am
  

  But Texas, was after being Spanish, Mexican until a little war of expansion by a democracy which never starts wars annexed to produce lots of cattle and presidents.

  California had been not only Mexican but also an independent Republic, not for long of course . And there are so many exquisite parallels, annexing Puerto Rico after failing to keep Cuba, but succeeding in keeping and integrating near by archipelagoes like Hawaii.

  Yes, it possible the general had forgotten about the origin of Makedonia , this rapid unstoppable train of history can be catch by all, it plays tricks with its schedule.
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Conn., USA

• Tuesday February 18, 2003 at 5:32 am
  D. Jovanovic

  Here's some info for you on how Bob Dole got to care about the Albanians. I believe his wife Elizabeth Dole is actually the one with the Albanian background. I'll try and find the link for you:

  http://voteforusa.com/albmony1.htm

  http://www.nationalism.org/sf/Articles/a80.html

  
  
  David
  Australia

• Tuesday February 18, 2003 at 6:07 am
  FYI, a taster on how the British were involved. Apparently. Usual spin on the 'facts'.

  British deal fuelled Balkan war
  
  Alexei Gorbulski
  Brussels
  Belgium (Plastic Bertrand rulez!)

• Tuesday February 18, 2003 at 6:16 am
  Referring to Gogol's observation, let us remember that Macedonia became part of Serbia together with Kosovo before WW I. This is an unpleasant fact for the International Crisis Group, which says in one of its reports:

  "On December 1, 1918, following the end of World War I, Kosovo became a part of the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes, which in 1929 became Yugoslavia."

  This is the ICG discussion paper on Intermediate Sovereignty (page 9): http://www.intl-crisis-group.org/projects/balkans/kosovo/reports/A400171_09111998.pdf . The paper relies almost exclusively on Noel Malcolm's Short History of Kosovo, which is not what I would call an objective work, any more than the ICG discussion paper itself.

  Not that ICG doesn't know about the 1912 and 1913 Balkan Wars, after which the borders were drawn. It is just that the ICG has to find just the right context for mentioning this. Like this one on Macedonia:

  "The roots of the troubles in this region can be traced back to the border settlements imposed in the decade after 1912, which divided territories inhabited by ethnic Albanians so that more ended outside the new national state than inside it. Serbian occupation of Kosovo and Macedonia in the first and second Balkan wars (1912 and 1913) was followed by what would now be called ethnic cleansing of Albanians."

  That passage was from the report Peace in Presevo (page 2). http://www.intl-crisis-group.org/projects/balkans/serbia/reports/A400381_10082001.pdf .

  And who were those bloody bastards who drew the borders like that? The French and the British mostly. Not that would now blame themselves any more than they blame the Serbs. On the contrary, they seem to consider it their right to draw the borders any way they like decades later, no matter what the Serbs say.

  In case you didn't realize it, this is what the ICG says about the "Macedonia project": "In an example of successful international intervention, Macedonia was spared yet another Balkan war in 2001."
  
  J N
  Finland

• Tuesday February 18, 2003 at 10:32 am
  Weapons shipments to CRO in January 1990, and attacks on JNA soldiers during 1989 and 1990 show as well that Racan’s government at that time actively participated in the war preparation to break-up Yugoslavia, and that these preparations took place a way before 1989.

  I am glad that Seriban population in Serbia, now through the court, has available information for that period.

  It was often heard that Milosevic influenced Serbs in Croatia.

  As for that fact, Racan in the 1990 elections for “Sabor” (House of Common) collected all Serbian votes, except for the Knin and Benkovac county, where SDS (Jovan Raskovic had 5 deputies - some of them were beaten in “Sabor”). (Knin and Benkovac were different in a WWII too.) If Serbs had been “nationalistically” influenced by Milosevic they would vote for somebody else wouldn’t they?

  After Racan was elected he turned back to Serbian population and left them without political representation in Sabor.
  If war is only continuation of politics by other means, and a war is a last resort of that continuation, wasn’t the act of leaving Serbian population without political representatives aiming at war, and wasn’t Croatian “election” in 1990 planned well in advance, aimed at break-up of Yugoslavia?

  Would one doubt that such a complex plan was possible to make inside CRO at that time?

  On the opposite site Serbs in CRO were influenced by what they’ve seen.
  If signs coming from Serbia were encouraging for the Serbian population in Croatia hundreds of thousands Serbs would have not left abroad, before 1995.
  
  
  Pero Peric
  Canada

• Tuesday February 18, 2003 at 1:00 pm
  It is amazing that the international community (I think OSCE in this case) was making all the necessary noise about the deficient minority rights of the Serbs inside Croatia. However, since Croatia did nothing to improve, OSCE let it be.

  Even autonomy for the Serbs inside Croatia was insisted upon !), but Croatia thought it was a better idea to throw the Serbs out.

  And look where we are now: the Serbs are the bastards, and their president is a war criminal.
  
  Jari Nousiainen
  Finland

• Tuesday February 18, 2003 at 1:45 pm
  

  "....(if you attack the myth of an historic legend.....you attack the psyche of those who believe in it......and unfortunately, we have seen that many Croatians would rather express this reaction through violent and often deadly means)"

  Above statement comes from Ivan Kokotovic

  Jari, not only that the Serbs are bustards and it was natural to exterminate them and thrown them out of Croatia, they are also bastards because they do not accept that the crimes committed against them in Croatia during the World War II and recently are considered part of the legend and rightful myth of the Croatian Ustasa. And Serbs stop denying this right to your nice Croat neighbors since you know they have short fuse and they will react violently and rightfully kill some more Serbs. What a concept for a reconciliation?
  
  Pera Bora
  Ottawa
  Canada

• Tuesday February 18, 2003 at 1:57 pm
  

  For the people that understand Serbian a useful source of information on The Hague tribunal can be found on the following URL:

  http://www.novosti.co.yu/

  and then follow the link: "Dosije Hag"
  
  Pera Bora
  Ottawa
  Canada

• Tuesday February 18, 2003 at 2:07 pm
  

  "On the opposite side Serbs in CRO were influenced by what they’ve seen. If signs coming from Serbia were encouraging for the Serbian population in Croatia hundreds of thousands Serbs would have not left abroad, before 1995.

  Pero, I agree with your above quoted statement. I think that what you said can be worded even stronger: If the JNA had occupied Croatia and liberated what was called Grater Serbia, Serbs would not be leaving Croatia during the war. Additionally there will not be a need to send UN peacekeepers to Croatia to protect any body.
  
  Pera Bora
  Ottawa
  Canada

• Tuesday February 18, 2003 at 2:48 pm
  Ms. Martinovic

  I thank you too for your reporting. Here in USA we had no notion what went on in Croatia in 1990!

  David from Australia,

  Thank you for these two addresses. Reading about Dole, and all the corruprion of US foreig policy, all well documented is scandalous!

  These two documents, yours and Ms. Martinovic Hague report have made me deeply depressed. How many years is to pass before this country realizes how wrong it was?
  
  D. Jovanovic
  USA

• Tuesday February 18, 2003 at 2:49 pm
  

  Rugova pledges cooperation with Hague Tribunal | 20:13 | Beta

  PRISTINA -- Tuesday - Ibrahim Rugova said today that the government in Pristina will give full cooperation to the Hague Tribunal.

  Responding to the arrest of the three former members of the Kosovo Liberation Army, the Kosovo president said that this was a matter for the justice department and The Hague.

  “Just like all other countries in the region, Kosovo will also cooperate with the International Criminal Tribunal,” he added.

  Rugova emphasised that the three Albanians arrested were only suspects and would be acquitted if they proved their innocence.

  “This is a matter of justice, it’s not about any comparison with crimes committed by Serbs forces.

  “We’re not used to justice because we were oppressed for many long years; it was war and justice has never ruled in this region,” said Rugova.

  Comment: Poor Albanians they do not know what the Justice is? They can kill as much as they want.

  
  
  Pera Bora
  Ottawa
  Canada

• Tuesday February 18, 2003 at 2:54 pm
  

  Some more info on arrested KLA members:

  URL:http://www.b92.net/english/news/index.php
  
  Pera Bora
  Ottawa
  Canada

• Tuesday February 18, 2003 at 2:55 pm
  HTMl CorrectionTest
  
  Pera Bora
  Ottawa
  Canada

• Tuesday February 18, 2003 at 3:14 pm
  Test. One more trial.
  
  Pera Bora
  Ottawa
  Canada

• Tuesday February 18, 2003 at 4:44 pm
  

  Limai surrender reports false, says Hague | 22:27 | B92

  THE HAGUE -- Tuesday -- Reports that war crimes suspect Fatmir Limai had surrendered in Bec this evening are false, Hague Prosecution representative Florence Hartman said this evening.

  However, Hartman told B92, Limai was arrested this evening in “a Balkan country” and should be transferred to The Hague overnight or during tomorrow.

  “I expect that the country in which Limai was arrested will announce to the public that, as part of its full cooperation with the Tribunal, it has arrested the fourth suspect named in the indictment unsealed yesterday,” she added.
  
  Pera Bora
  Ottawa
  Canada

• Tuesday February 18, 2003 at 6:49 pm
  Rugova stating the crimes committed by Albanians were not like those of Serbs? They had no justice?

  What does he think the Serbs have? Remember who started this civil war?Also what happened after the peace accord? We have heard of elderly women being strangled, new born babies burned alive, nuns being raped, thugs beating to death Serb women and men while the crowd squealed with delight. Mr. Rugova what kind of crimes are these? After that there was a blackout of news imposed on Kosovo by the Clinton administration. The only way we know a little of the truth is what leaks out.

  Rugova was saved by Milosevic but Milosevic is no longer there to protect him. We have heard of all the political killings and someone is not happy with his party and it is not the Serbs as they could care less.

  He was not man enough to admit that Milosevic saved him.......... I think of him as a number ONE SNEAK

  Del Ponte made it a point to make excuses for the Albanian who she said did not know he was going to be arrested and therefore she was not blaming him for taking off instead she blamed Nato for allowing him to get away. This is called walking on egg shells.

  
  
  Kathryn Love
  SJC
  USA

• Tuesday February 18, 2003 at 7:02 pm
  To Robert D: It's good to be appreciated. And my language skills come from going through the local school system, working in foreign trade before and freelancing as a translator now and from avidly reading everything that comes my way.

  This 'trial' makes me want doing nothing else but watching the sessions every morning and writing reports covering them every night, which is unfortunately impossible due to my workload. That's why I sometimes post every day and sometimes skip days or even weeks, which I hate.

  Which brings me to 40 fresh pages of company profiles received this morning that need to be translated 'yesterday'…

  I know it's a problem to understand this whole complicated mess that happened in these parts over the last decade, but that's just the hope of those who have orchestrated the mess and created the ICTY monster: they count on people being overwhelmed by the sheer amount of the unknown facts and on becoming (or remaining) disinterested. Therefore, learn and inform yourselves and you will not be bamboozled by manipulators into supporting their agendas. I'm just trying to help you there.

  Btw, do you know that Milosevic asked General Vasiljevic whether it was true that Natasa Kandic telephoned him repeatedly prior to his testifying? The General confirmed: yes, the humanitarian warrior from the Soros-funded Fund called twice and tried to squeeze some info about Kosovo from the wretched, marked man, but he refused to talk to her, saying he would tell it all on the stand.
  
  Vera Martinovic
  Belgrade
  Yugoslavia

• Tuesday February 18, 2003 at 7:25 pm
  Well here's an Email. Its to Rush Limbaugh, who has 20 million US radio listeners. He claims, and I believe him, to shine the 'light of truth' on all, especially the Clintonoids. For those having a few choice observations for this guy, here's his address rush@eibnet.com His web site is confusing but his 3 hr daily radio program provides needed engaging balance, IMO. Here's what I said. Rush You are completely backwards on Milosevic. Kosovo and Iraq are opposites in every respect. Milosevic and Saddam are opposites. The Hague 'tribunal' is proving it every day. The least I expect you to do is use the term 'alleged' when it comes to Milosevic. Your team advisors need a reality update. The truth is hard may be hard to take but Clinton placed us on the wrong side the Balkans!
  
  J P
  US, Wis

• Tuesday February 18, 2003 at 7:27 pm
  From today’s Daily Telegraph (UK):

  The article describes how “Three lesser Albanian figures” were detained yesterday by KFOR on behalf of the ICTY. It goes on to say of a more senior member of the KLA, who avoided arrest:

  Limaj, 32, is believed to have been indicted by the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia for killings, torture and illegal detentions of both fellow ethnic Albanians and Serbs between1998-1999.

  At last the ICTY and the West’s mainstream media is beginning to admit openly that the KLA was killing Kosovars. So it wasn’t, as we are still led to believe by “Trust-me” Tony, the ‘Nasty Serbs who had slaughtered them all’. This being so how does del Ponte know exactly who killed all those Kosovar victims?

  The article goes on:

  The KLA was trained, financed, supplied and assisted by American and British intelligence and special forces agents in their fight against the Serbs.

  Pinch me: I must be dreaming. “Trust-me” Tony Blair was supporting Islamic terror in the Balkans and until some two years ago - in Macedonia - according to this mainstream British Media. The recent BBC program ‘The Fall of Milosevic’ showed units of Mujahedin and al-Qaeda training with the regular KLA.

  There is more:

  Kosovar Albanians carried out a bloody campaign of reverse ethnic cleansing against Kosovo's minority Serb population.

  As “Trust-me” Tony Blair appeals once more for us to trust him over his new warmongering for a Bush war: Why should we? Note carefully his friends in the Balkans of just two years ago: al-Qaeda and the Mujahedin. Note carefully the nightmare that is Kosovo, while he boasts of it as his finest hour - so far. As Tony the Undertaker prepares to bury tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands more in Iraq - because he is “Right and Just” - think on these things.

  More bias in a so-called court of justice: Note that the ICTY indicted Milosevic and his senior Generals almost four years ago without any authentic evidence as to who had killed thousands of Kosvars. It was plastered over the western media then that the Serbs were responsible for all these atrocities but now even mainstream news media is telling us that the KLA was responsible for some thousands of these deaths. So why is del Ponte now indicting only the small fry and not the big fish, the big three: Thaqi, Haradinaj and Ceku: the Leadership?
  
  Peter Taylor
  Herts/UK

• Tuesday February 18, 2003 at 9:08 pm
  

  Blair seems to be very convinced of himself. Some pathological traits are noticeable.

  In this side of the Atlantic, the case is more primal, almost Darwian and certainly belonging to a zoo.

  Western Civilization is in good hands.
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Conn., USA

• Tuesday February 18, 2003 at 9:21 pm
  

  Vera,

  Your reports have become essential to all of us. You are our pressence in Yugoslavia, you give life and meaning to Mr. Milosevic's words and to his fight. I m proud of him for his fight, his integrity and dedication and I wish I had ever known in the many countries I lived during my life such a feeling of solidarity as I know once existed in Yugoslavia.

  The trial must be less surreal on a regular TV screen than on a corner of my laptop. Perhaps more dreary.
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Conn., USA