MILOSEVIC TRIAL DISCUSSION ARCHIVE

Is Slobodan Milosevic getting a fair trial?
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• discussion archive

• Saturday January 04, 2003 at 1:46 am
  Vera What's the story with Milutinovic. Is he going to be sent to Hague.Was the indictment against him unsealed, What's the charge. Is he going to seat next to Milosevic or a new trial is in the works. Is the prosecution using the same witnesses as in Milosevic trial? On the other hand part of the separatist movement in Yugoslavia was fueled by the beleive that as soon as their countries will become independent ( Croatia and the others) billions of $$ will roll down the street . I don.t know how many $$ they got, but i see now that Croatia , Slovenia and the others are looking toward Serbia to sell their goods .
  
  Vasile Ianos
  NJ

• Saturday January 04, 2003 at 2:37 am
  

  Davor!

  In bold types are your words from your last post, and they are followed by my comments.

  "I am being honest about myself and my feeling."

  I've been reading your posts so for only and only because I believed you.

  "many here whilst oppose tribunal still do Milosevic paperwork /dirtywork at the same time."

  Did your parents teach you to speak like this about other people's work?

  "I would have suport strong action in Slovenia."

  I was rather confused at the time, but had it been the way you suggest I wouldn't have been: I would have fought you and Miloševiæ.

  "even when most our media was poison"

  I have always thought media can be poisonous. I took your posts as a clear proof after having read two or three of them.

  "Your comment as you put is not worth to comment on about justice or me suporting tribunal because everyone know my position by now. You should read my post again if you dont know that."

  Pera must have believed you to. I also think your posts should be read several times (but only by linguists interested in different aspects of usage of a language).

  "I place Ms Jatras on extreme right and that is true."

  And you are ready to reproach other people with dogmatism. For saying this you will be remembered.

  "Im sorry to attack you in this way but you leave yourself open to this when you support something so dirty."

  Don't hesitate, beat the dirt out of us. And don't worry about being unjust for attacking the weak, we are power there are millions of us.

  "If you dont see that you are blind."

  From now on I will be blind for your posts.

  Davor, I won't be reading your posts anymore.
  
  Jagoš Mirkoviæ
  Ljubljana
  Slovenia

• Saturday January 04, 2003 at 6:14 am
  

  I have already mentioned my reading the ICTY transcripts as a work of fiction. I went back to the 1. 2. and 3. October transcripts when S. Mesiæ was giving evidence against Miloševiæ. I remembered the judge May's mentioning Micawber where I got the idea that he's not necessarily biased against Miloševiæ, at least not privately. Let me remind you (p. 10741):

  Mesiæ: "The accused is putting forward conclusions that not even David Copperfield would be ashamed of. Croatia was defending itself from the JNA because the JNA was arming those who were attacking Croatia, the Croatian state and the Croatian government. Croatia was defending itself because the JNA, under the control of the accused, was attacking Croatian territory. No one attacked barracks. They were simply blocked, surrounded, to prevent them attacking."

  I believe that Mesiæ had in mind the illusionist David Copperfield, a real person, and that he will never forgive himself for mentioning this name. Judge May obviously didn'n understand it as it was meant and:

  Judge may: "Just a moment, Mr. Milosevic, I think the reference to David Copperfield was probably to Micawber, although I don't know if that's right or not."

  Of course, an English educated person won't associate the name of David Copperfield with some illusionist. Now, there was no need for the judge to make this remarque? Why did he do it nevertheless? Did he want to name Mesiæ (oh, God help me over my sinfull thoughts) Uriah Heep? Having the context in mind... You never know in this mortal coil.

  While I was dwelling upon these pages I noticed something else. I don't know if you discussed it at the time but to my opinion it is one of those things that is worth repeating over and over again. Mesiæ repeats one of the things that he believes are worth reapeating (p. 10769):

  Mesiæ: "And had that been done, there would not have been any war in Croatia. But it was the arming of those who were implementing the plan to expand the borders of Serbia - I don't want to say Greater Serbia here - but to expand it."

  According to Mesiæ, and not only his, one of the main Miloševiæ's sin is that he wanted to create Greater Serbia, and he didn't mention it a thousand times as our "Greater Deamon" would put it, but it was for about forty times in three days, once again: FOURTY times. But listen to this, and it's on the following page (measured in time it must have been a minute or so later):

  Mesiæ: "I said what the Serbs in Croatia were needed for. Slobodan Milosevic needed them to populate Kosovo once he had expelled the Albanians. But the crimes committed against the civilians, it is I myself (Dickensian, ah; my comment) who am in favour of having every criminal brought to justice and have all these cases investigated."

  Some people in the Hague ARE stupid, they still cannot see that Miloševiæ wanted to move Albanians from Kosovo to Krajina, and Serbs from Krajina to Kosovo. There would be some difficulties in explaining Miloševiæ's aim to create Greater Serbia, but don't you think it would make a better prosecution case than this one?

  Be it as it may, I sometimes think Mesiæ may be right; that would explain why quite a few Serbs today seem to be split personalities.

  Forgive me my sharp tongue, it's probably out of frustration.
  
  Jagoš Mirkoviæ
  Lj.
  Sl.

• Saturday January 04, 2003 at 11:37 am
  
  Another interesting report by Human Rights Watch:

  http://www.hrw.org/reports/2001/kosovo/undword2c.html

  No evidence Carla?
  
  Peter Taylor
  Herts/UK

• Saturday January 04, 2003 at 1:38 pm
  Jagos, I was never for the war against Slovenia. Peter, thanks for your last post.
  
  Pera Bora
  Ottawa
  Canada

• Saturday January 04, 2003 at 1:55 pm
  Pera, I didn't mean you were. I was just commenting the way Davor adressed you in his post and I was referred to my first comment. To make it clear I will correct myself: "Pera must have believed you too that's why he honoured you by an answer". I'm sorry for my clumsy manner of expression.
  
  Jagoš M.
  Lj.
  Sl.

• Saturday January 04, 2003 at 1:59 pm
  One more correction: not "I was referred to" but "I was referring to".

  Sorry.
  
  Jagoš M.
  Lj.
  Sl.

• Saturday January 04, 2003 at 2:12 pm
  Remember Misha Glenny. He has written numerous books about the Balkan Civil Wars. For the most part he is Anti Serb. He was in Macedonia when the terrorists again started up and I imagine he was trying to find a book in that one. Maybe he did, I do not know. The Balkans have been his source of income for quite some time.

  About a year ago I looked up his website. One of the topics was an interview.To my surprise he was angry with Bill Clinton for the attack on the Serbian Krajina as Glenny thought the only crime these Serbian Krajina people had committed was that they were Serb. He said in that interview that he believed Milosevic would be within his rights to move everyone of those Serbian Krajina refugees to Kosovo. A few months ago I went back to that website and the interview was gone. Did the removal have something to do with the Kangaroo Court lynching party? I doubt that Glenny reads this but just in case he does it would be nice hearing from him.

  As for Stella Jatras. Any Serb who discredits Stella Jatras is not a true Serb. As Walter says, there are weeds in wheat fields. The Serbian people should be very grateful to her. I only wish that many Serbs would speak out as Ms. Jatras does. I cannot tell you how much I admire her and her husband.

  Walter I admire some of your proverbs....as you can tell. The one about cutting off Del Ponte‘s toes to fit her shoes......very good.

  
  
  Kathryn Love
  SJC
  USA

• Saturday January 04, 2003 at 3:00 pm
  

  At the certain point of Mr. Milosevic's trial an experts would be called in to provide the court with their view on various technical subject like history of Yugoslavia, Yugoslav Constitution and so on. If I remember correctly Misha Glenny is chosen by the prosecution to preset the pre war history of the Yugoslavia. I am very eagerly expecting this phase of the trial.

  The other day I have heard that since Mr. Milosevic is not recognizing the court the court will not pay expenses for the witnesses that he is calling. Is this true or not?

  
  
  Pera Bora
  Ottawa
  Canada

• Saturday January 04, 2003 at 3:08 pm
  

  That is a good one, why not charge him bed and board?
  
  Gogol Charge
  Conn. USA

• Saturday January 04, 2003 at 3:38 pm
  I've stumbled upon this forum by accident ... glad I did. Most of the discussions here involve people that obviously know and understand what has really happened in Yugoslavia. Ms.Love, I can’t agree more with your comments about Mrs.Jatras. The Serbian Unity Congress (USA) gave a presentation to Stella and George Jatras in special recognition of their services to the Serbian community in the USA and the homeland. Stella is a tireless campaigner for the Serbian cause. Her son James Jatras, Foreign Policy Analyst on the Senate Republican Policy Committee, gave the keynote address. In a speech of dazzling eloquence and soaring images, he blasted the Administration's whole policy toward Serbia, stating that it was criminal and worthy of being brought to The Hague tribunal. He spoke movingly of the union between American, Greek, and Serb core values and how these had been betrayed by the Administration. He urged Serbs to hold on to their sacred vision of the heavenly kingdom. This was an electrifying speech, the eloquence and fine sentiment of which greatly moved all in the audience. On the other subject, I hope this will help regarding Misha: http://www.balkan-archive.org.yu/kosta/external/e-AuthorBalkanConflictCondemnsUSCovertActivity-110895-NPR.html Author on Balkan Conflict Condemns U.S. Covert Activity National Public Radio Show: All Things Considered August 11, 1995 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- NOAH ADAMS, Host: At the end of a week of dramatic developments in Croatia and Bosnia, we turn to Misha Glenny, for analysis. He's the author of a book of the beginnings of these conflicts, titled The Fall of Yugoslavia. We begin with this question - how much was Croatia's president, Franjo Tudjman, gambling when he decided to re-take the Krajina? MISHA GLENNY, Author: For Franjo Tudjman, it was not much of a gamble at all. He understood fully well that Milosevic was not in a position to respond to what was going on in the Krajina, unless Milosevic wanted to go for a full scale war in the Balkans. Also, the part of the Serb-held territories, which Tudjman went for are so far away from Serbia and only accessible through a tortuous route in Bosnian Serb-held territory, that the logistics of defending the Krajina were more or less impossible, so Tudjman wasn't taking a gamble and Tudjman also had the advantage of apparently warm support by the German goverment and the United States government in his action. NOAH ADAMS: Well, if that's the case, then why did Serbia take the the Krajina four years ago, if it is indefensible? MISHA GLENNY: We've got to set one or two things straight here, Noah, about Serbia taking the Krajina. The Krajina came into being at the same time it was independent Croatian republic when Yugoslavia was collapsing. The Croats wanted to leave Yugoslavia and the Serbs who lived in the Krajina wanted to stay in Yugoslavia,and so we simply can't use terms like 'Serbia occupying the Krajina' or something like that. These people had been until five days ago, living and farming this territory for over 300 years. NOAH ADAMS: Let's take a look now at the other Serb-held area, in Croatia - eastern Slavonia, which in fact borders Serbia. Serbian troops have gone to that area. What do you think lies ahead for eastern Slavonia? MISHA GLENNY: If Croatia were to go ahead and attack eastern Slavonia, which is of much greater strategic and economic importance to Serbia than the other parts of the Krajina were,then I am absolutely convinced that the Yugoslav Army will respond ferociously, and much that Tudjman has achieved in terms of his strategic aims over the past five or six days, will be lost. NOAH ADAMS: Sort of a side issue here, but very important as well, especially for Slobodan Milosevic in Belgrade,in Serbia, is the issue of Kosovo, and we're hearing that Serbia now wants to send 100,000 of the Krajina Serbs down to the province of Kosovo, where there is ethnic Albanian majority, and the population balance there has always been a very, a very sensitive thing. Do you think that's possibly true that he would do that? MISHA GLENNY: I think these reports are wildly exaggerated. Milosevic has not taken such a decision himself, but I want to put one thing in perspective, and I also feel as an explanation to this, want to look into the role of the United States government in everything that's been going on. The U.S. government has condoned and encouraged the cleansing of the Serbs from the Krajina. They are condoning the sort of things that Karadzic has been doing to the Muslims and Croats in Bosnian Serb-held territory, and it means now that if Milosevic, at any time in the future, decides to put a lot of Serbs into Kosovo, and certainly some of the refugees from the Krajina will be moved into Kosovo - I don't know how many - and if he decides to kick out the Albanians, then frankly, the United States government has neither the moral nor the political right to criticize him for doing so. NOAH ADAMS: With the regard to the U.S. role in the Krajina, what could the U.S. have done? It isn't clear that the U.S. encouraged it, in fact, it probably just did not discourage the action. MISHA GLENNY: No, I'm sorry, it is extremely clear that the United States encouraged this action. If you listen to Mate Granic, the Croatian foreign minister, it is extremely clear when Peter Galbraith, the senior representative of the United States in Zagreb says that what Croatia did in the Krajina was not ethnic cleansing. It is extremely clear when William Perry, the defense secretary, says that the Croatian action is to be given a guarded welcome, because it may result in a resolution of the Balkan conflict, and not of word of condemnation for the fact that this, the Croatian army, has gone in,shooting people like rabbits. The United States has had a principal position on the issue of Bosnia for a long time, of saying that we cannot tolerate such actions as the Bosnian Serbs who perpetrated such atrocities against the Muslims over the last three years. It does not, however, mean that we can then condone the committing of those same atrocities to another set of people, just because they happen to be the same nationality, as the Bosnian Serbs. I think it is a really shameful and nauseating pockmark in American diplomatic history. NOAH ADAMS: Misha Glenny, the author of The Fall of Yugoslavia, talking with us from Brighton, England. Drago VA., USA
  
  Drago Stanisic
  USA

• Saturday January 04, 2003 at 3:47 pm
  

  Vasile, Mr. Milutinovic is not going to be tried to gather with Mr. Milosevic. It can not be done any more, since Mr. Milosevic trial is going on for a while. As far as I know the accusations are the same for all of them Mr. Milosevic and his associates, unless his associates decide to be witnesses against Mr. Milosevic. This has already happened to Mr. Martic, former president of Krajina. At first he was accused only for bombing of Zagreb and some other lesser crimes. Using this accusation he was arrested or rather he decided to surrender him self to the ICTY. When he refused to "cooperate" he has been told that he would have to face all the charges for Croatia that Mr. Milosevic is accused of. The prosecution is hoping that some of his associates will start laying blame on him in an attempt to reach a deal. There is an another reason to delay the trials of Mr. Milosevic's associates, it is called expediency. I have heard Mr. Fila, the lawyer that will defend a Mr. Milosevics associate, saying that prosecution in order to shorten the trial of his defendant wants to use all the evidence that was broth up in the Mr. Milosevic trial. Both parts: the witness statements and the cross-examination done by Mr. Milosevic. Mr. Fila was saying that this is not acceptable to him because he is saying that Mr. Milosevic is not qualified criminal trial lawyer. Mr. Fila wants to cross-examine witnesses him self. He is right from the other point of view, as well. His client has different role in the alleged crimes that Mr. Milosevic. I am thinking that Mr. Fila will not be allowed to cross-examine all the witnesses that he wants. This is a speculation. Let's wait and see what is going to happen. After having said what I have, I am wandering if Mr. Krajisnik's trial will be postponed until the end of the Mr. Milosevic's trial because of expediency. The beginning of it was already postponed several times. It is my understanding that some of Mr. Milosevic's associates would be tried together.

  
  
  Pera Bora
  Ottawa
  Canada

• Saturday January 04, 2003 at 6:18 pm
  Slobodan Milosevic is being tried in the Hague because he is a political foe of the West i.e. he did not conform to the West's wishes like Tudjman,Izetbegovic and Rugova. The concept of war crimes is only a secondary process and the one which we,the public,are asked to believe. There is a definate parallel in terms of political justice when comparing the Hague with the Nuremberg trials. Not one Allied soldier was tried for war crimes. Why? Is it because they were angels and did not commit crimes against civilians? Hmmmm......unlikely. It is because the Allies were the victors and so they were able to lay down the rules in relation to "war crimes". Today,61 Serbs are either in the Hague or indicted by the Hague,comparing to about 8 Croats and 6 Muslims,without a single Albanian. Slightly disproportionate,wouldn't you say?? Again,we must not lose sight of the fact that the victors inevitably write the history books. http://www.balkan-archive.org.yu/politics/papers/history/ranz.html Regards to everyone :-)
  
  Don Quixote
  Madrid
  Spain

• Saturday January 04, 2003 at 7:33 pm
  Don, I followed your link to the

  http://www.balkan-archive.org.yu/politics/papers/history/ranz.html

  The day of the article is July 28, 1995.

  Obviously John Ranz colud've forseen happenings in the next few days. A very interesting article - thank you for the link once more.

  John brought up few interesting things, that only few Serbs would know about them.
  
  
  Pero Peric
  Canada

• Saturday January 04, 2003 at 7:52 pm
  Pero, If you would like another interesting link check this one out: http://www.michaelparenti.org Try and get your hands on his book "To Kill a Nation: The Attack on Yugoslavia". I finished reading it recently and it mentions John Ranz in his book,as well as effectively demonstrating how the Serbs were disproportionately demonized in the Western mass media,to the point that the media started to tell blatant lies about the Serbian nation. For example,in 1993 a Bundestag member,Stefan Schwarz,started to spew out lies about how the Serbs had their own twisted "Mengele" scientists and are how they were injecting canine foetuses into the wombs of Bosnian Muslim women. He claimed to have video evidence of this and it was only one year later that he admitted that no such tape existed. Regards.
  
  Don Quixote
  Madrid
  Spain

• Saturday January 04, 2003 at 9:23 pm
  Kathryn that quote comes from Mao who spoke to a Comintern agent about the conduct of the guerrilla campaign during the Long March. I found it appropriate, for Carla, since she seems to be conducting the prosecution case by cutting off one toe at a time to fit her prosecutor’s shoes. I hope her case dies soon from bleeding to death from fabrications. There are many proverbs in Serbian but since I left Herzegovina as a child of ten I have forgotten most of them.
  
  Walter Trkla
  Kamloops BC
  Canada

• Sunday January 05, 2003 at 12:20 am
  To Davor: I can understand perfectly your frustration over those numerous, neglected refugees in our country. I know 'it makes you so crazy' and 'it breaks your heart'. But, please try and use reason here: the ICTY in the first place doesn't give a damn about them, as befits any political court. Try to find one indictment covering the case of Krajina or Kosovo refugees - there's none. Gotovina and Bobetko are indicted because of their command responsibility over the troops that killed few hundreds civilians. Those few hundred thousands expelled in the process are not even mentioned. As regards Kosmet, nobody from KLA is indicted for anything, let alone expulsions. This court is not even about those killed, on whose behalf this institution supposedly acts - just take a look at the flippant manner in which all its indictments treat the victims, throwing anonymous numbers around, different in the each new version of the same event. Each and every victim deserves a name, an explanation. Here, they are simply used as a political ammunition. And yet, you say that any justice is better than none and you wander what is the alternative. The same argument was used by the US administration when they decided to bomb us: we had to do something. No, better to do nothing, than to do a wrong thing. What we are witnessing in the ICTY is not a political justice, not even a selective justice, it's no justice at all. Justice has to be precise, specific. Justice is not motivated by feeling sad/pity for the defendant (or not). Unless you advocate the maxim that everybody is guilty of something, in which case we are in the field of philosophy already. So far, the Prosecution hasn't managed to convince me that Milosevic is guilty as charged. You suggest he's guilty of something else? Is the omission to visit refugee camps a criminal act? He is not indicted for faking elections or enabling his son to have a theme-park and bakery. He's not indicted for failing to organize a military coup to take over Slovenia to prevent its secession either. You have already punished him for that, by denying him your vote. 'What did he do exactly to deserve such defence from many clever people?', you ask. He became a symbol, both for those who attack him and for those who defend him. And it is precisely this broad, vague, ridiculous indictment against him that made him become a symbol. You keep hinting that you posses some knowledge unavailable to those not living in our country; is it connected with the indictment? Did you hear/read his orders for ethnic cleansing and killings? Have you attended one of the meetings of the 'joint criminal enterprise'? Because this is the subject-matter here, and not the lack of Milosevic's humanitarian work.

  Btw, while he was still in office, tens of thousands refugees from Croatia (my mother included) started to receive their pensions (approximately two thirds of the monthly amount) from 'his' social funds, in hope the total sum of one third plus arrears would be someday reimbursed by CRO (so, there you have it, he actually did some humanitarian work, only never bothered to boast about it), and they are still receiving these allowances, simply because Mesic (the Croatian politician of whom you think so well) still drags his feet about returning them their rights, as the EU constantly pressures CRO to do. But, this is a substantial amount in question: 11 years arrears of pensions for so many people and the Croatian economy is in ruins. However, Mesic may go on with his feet-dragging as much as he likes: if my mother dies before he finally succumbs to the EU pressure, her legal heirs are to receive the total arrears. This is an example of justice, you see. It may seem slow and unsatisfactory, but that's how it works. Anything else is lynching. 'Who will answer for civilians killed all over Yugoslavia?', you ask, desperate to accuse somebody, anybody; why not Milosevic, when he's already available? The scapegoat gets punished (but it's OK in your book, because you don't feel sad for him), the real culprits walk free (because they run this world, are unavailable and are about to launch yet another war soon) and you are tricked, but satisfied that somebody 'answered'. What makes you any better than those paramilitaries from both sides who were killing their prisoners? They also found somebody, anybody who will 'answer' and who didn't deserve their pity. You said you 'will not try to defend something bad as this', speaking about not taking prisoners. Is it not equally bad what you advocate? You don't pull the trigger here, but you say it's OK to convict people only because they perhaps did or didn't do something else and anyway, they don't deserve the pity.

  I've read only 4 articles by Stella Jatras and her views and the way her mind works enchanted me. What do you mean, Davor, when you call her 'a woman from extreme right'? Is it something bad or something good? Is it true and/or relevant at all? She strikes me as a woman very much speaking her own mind. Please, don't use those proportions of 'two thirds of nation'; no-one should 'represent views' of two thirds, three quarters or one fifth of anything, but should speak for oneself.

  Vasile, Pera has already answered your questions re Milutinovic. I might add that the situation here among our sock-puppet public figures is pretty much the same as it was just before Milosevic was abducted and delivered to The Hague: everybody is publicly washing its hands of any direct responsibility for the decision to send Milutinovic packing, deeply aware how wrong, unlawful and eventually prosecutable this is. The District Court asked for the opinion from the Federal Committee for the Co-Operation with the Tribunal, they in turn tossed the ball to the Serbian Government to decide whether the delivery of yet another ex-President would 'damage the interests of the country'… Finally, they will probably act as in the previous case: Djindjic will organize the kidnapping once again, after being threatened by the US with the blocking of financial help.
  
  Vera Martinovic
  Belgrade
  Yugoslavia

• Sunday January 05, 2003 at 9:13 am
  

  I -- 'The Fall of Milosevic'

  From the makers of the 'Death of Yugoslavia'-series, British Lapping Associates, comes a new series entitled 'The Fall of Milosevic'. A host of major European TV stations acted as the BBC's co-producers in this project

  The first 90 mins episode of three airs on BBC II tonight at 21:00 London time, 22:00 CET. The program will be broadcast with the original audio and English sub-titles.

  Viewers in the Netherlands can watch the series' second episode, entitled 'The war in Kosovo, March-June 1999' on Nederland III tonight at 21:05 CET; it airs on BVN satellite TV later this week.

  II -- Milosevic Trial Internet Video Archive - Serbian language

  Since the Milosevic trial started before the ICTY last year, FreeSerbia has offered live Serbian audio and video from courtroom I to the Jugoslav Internet community. A RealVideo archive was also set up, but due to bandwidth restrictions, the Belgrade server hosting the archive could not be opened up to the worldwide diaspora public.

  With the help of the EU, Bard College and XS4ALL Internet a mirror of the Belgrade archive has been set up on one of Bard College's servers. The archive machine resides in the Amsterdam-based XS4ALL network; server maintenance and archive updates are effected by FreeSerbia.

  At http://mksj.bard.edu the integral Milosevic Trial archive with Serbian-language audio is available to the world from today. Formats used are RealAudio and RealVideo.

  The Milosevic Trial coverage on Internet is a joint project of Domovina Net, FreeSerbia and Bard College, made possible by:

  
  XS4ALL Internet, Holland
  Open Society Institute, Switzerland
  Internews, USA
  Andrew W. Mellon Foundation, USA
  Glaser Foundation, USA
  RealNetworks, USA
  International Center for Transitional Justice, USA
  Radio Free Europe, Czech Republic
  Press Now, Holland
  European Union
  ICTY Outreach
  
  
  Frank Tiggelaar
  Amsterdam
  Holland

• Sunday January 05, 2003 at 12:02 pm
  

  I DESPISE PEOPLE THAT MAKE THEIR LIVING FROM THE MISERY OF OTHERS. IT IS CALLED THE HUMAN MISERY INDUSTRY
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Conn. USA

• Sunday January 05, 2003 at 5:16 pm
  Drago Stanisic welcome to the forum.

  Please continue to visit this website. You will read posts from Vera, who keeps us informed from Belgrade. She gives us the analysis of the Milosevic lynching each day... as the witnesses one by one are crossed by Milosevic. Her reports to this forum are by all means the best information you can receive on what is going on in the Hague. I do not think English is Vera’s first language, but she is so articulate in English in describing the events in the Hague, that we are all fascinated. If she can write like this in a second language imagine what she does in Serbian. She can even capture the facial expression, body language, etc. of the witness, Milosevic, or the prosecutors and pass it on to us.

  There is Jari from Finland who has kept this forum going from the beginning. Jari amazes us with his legal knowledge and his relentless research. Gogol,Walter, Peter, Pera Bora, and so many who have participated and contributed to this forum. They are all impressive.

  Many thanx to you for for posting the interview with Misha Glenny. The website I went on had it deleted.

  Also thanx for the information on Stella Jatras. The Serbs should realize how fortunate they are to have a friend allies as Stella Jatras, and her family. I would like to have ten thousand more just like them.

  Frank: No Thanx. I have had ten years of propaganda and I feel that I have ODeed. I am drying out.

  Jari: I said “he” when referring to you. I do not know if you are he or she. None of my business but whether you are he or she is okay with me.

  Walter: My Mother had a lot of good proverbs handed down to her from my Grandmother. Pity I cannot, or dare not, post them.

  
  
  Kathryn Love
  SJC
  USA

• Sunday January 05, 2003 at 8:05 pm
  
  The truth will out

  Thank you Frank Tiggelaar for advertising tonight’s BBC programme ‘The Fall of Milosevic’ in your post above at 9.15 am today.

  I have just watched the first episode which is to be followed by parts 2 and 3 on successive Sundays. I urge anyone who is able: to watch these programmes. This is not the BBC propaganda machine of 1999. There is no repeat of the lies: “The Rape camps, The Death camps and the Tens of thousands of slaughtered Kosovars”: At least not in this first programme.

  There is bias and bias against the Serbs. In particular Blair’s leading role as advocate for the attack upon Serbia is not revealed. However this first programme clearly shows that the terror campaign was initiated by an insurgency from Albania aided by Britain and America and that the motive was territorial expansion.

  Examples reveal the KLA’s tactic of gaining support of other foreign powers through propaganda by provoking the Serbian security forces with random murders of Serbs. During counter attacks they would hold Kosovar civilians hostage and publicise the resulting casualties as Serbian atrocities. General Rose reported this same tactic employed by Muslims in Bosnia.

  Another point of bias was the proposition that the suspect Racak ‘massacre’ was a justification for the attack upon Serbia: While no mention of massacres by the KLA was made nor any explanation as to why these massacres did not cause the western powers to withdraw their support for, or even warrant attacks upon, the KLA?

  There are two scenes not to be missed. Twice marching columns of KLA were shown, briefly, to contain units of Mujahedin or al-Qaeda warriors dressed in traditional headdress and uniforms - the jihadists who traditionally mutilate their victims. Feel ashamed of yourselves Blair and Co for supporting this evil in Kosovo.

  Observing today’s Islamic terror bombing in Israel, while on the subject of support for Mujahedin and al-Qaeda in Kosovo, note the dirty dealings of Albright and Rubin: Albright positively glows as she places her faith in Hashim Thaci ‘because he is tall and good looking’. My God is that a measure of the highest standards of calculation in international diplomacy? Weed, weed!

  Is it now an axiom of the N.W.O that When the ethnic balance of a province of a state changes in favour of those in a neighbouring state Then a terror campaign backed by Nato is justified in purging the minorities and realigning the sovereign boundaries? I do not believe it Blair. This is a recipe for international chaos.

  This programme is not the whole story but there is much that is good in it and it is moving in the right direction - towards the truth. Eventually the BBC, hopefully, will return to the high standards of broadcasting for which it was once renowned and the criminal folly of Nato’s attack upon Serbia will be fully revealed.
  
  Peter Taylor
  Herts/UK

• Sunday January 05, 2003 at 8:15 pm
  

  Well, here in the colonies not such luck. The truth will remain in the dog's house.
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  USA

• Sunday January 05, 2003 at 11:37 pm
  Vera
  When the Tribunal Hearings..... (please note choice of language ICTY neither a 'court' nor a 'trial', hope this usage becomes widespread ).....return. Please try to write up as many of your daily reports as possible. These are the sole reliable sources of information. thanks.

  Peter Taylor
  Regarding HRW paper on KLA/KPC murder sprees after 12 June 1999, one should note that President Clinton in a official report to Congress stated that Kfor/UNMIK had operational command of the KPC. USFM 27-10 Chapter 6 paragraph 366 is illuminating in this regard as to the guilt of Kfor officers and UNMIK political leaders.

  JN
  As for some juicy tidbits on Command Responsibility, check out USFM 27-10. It is the US Military's Field Manual for the Law of War. You can find it on the web.

  The US military says that Officers are guilty of crimes units under their command commit if said officers knew or should have know about crimes commited or about to be committed. USFM 27-10 reflects the typically strict formulation of responsibility modern armies have for their officers.

  The trail of command responsibility between Kfor officers and their KLA/KPC units is exceedingly clear.

  Kfor/UNMIK....
  paid the KPC/KLA salaries,
  appointed the KPC/KLA leaders,
  organized training for the KPC/KLA units
  had daily meetings with their KPC/KLA subordinates
  etc., etc.

  The HumWarriors gave themselves more than enough rope to hang.
  
  AP V
  NY
  NY

• Monday January 06, 2003 at 2:01 am
  Peter and AP V -- I was so encouraged by your reports. Then I saw the article I quote in part below. I can't believe the truth will ever come out. Too many people have a stake in this, holding on to their story of the events, wanting to prove that they were right all along. They continue the tale that "Milosevic started 3 wars" and blah blah blah. I don't know if I'm allowed to post the whole article. Here is an excerpt and perhaps you can go to the site to get it. EXCERPT from an article in the Guardian, Jan.6, by Allan Little: "I spent the best part of three years screaming down a telephone line from Sarajevo and elsewhere in Bosnia, covering the conflict for the BBC. The dynamic of the conflict seemed obvious to most of us who sepnt any time there: the war was coming from Belgrade, Milosevic needed conflict to stay in power and had hijacked the Yugoslav People's Army to do it. I would come back to London after prolonged assignments to find the political classes in Britain assessing a conflict I simply didn't recognise. I thought they were talking about a different war altogether - and in a sense they were. Seen from London the war was about "ancient ethnic hatreds"; there was somethig inevitable (and therefore unstoppable) about it; and, above all, it was "horribly complicated". It was, of course, nothing of the sort. It was very simple and straightforward. There was a war in former Yugoslavia because a criminalised elite in Belgrade, that had jumped from the sinking ship of communism onto the life raft of nationalism had chosen to have one."
  
  Nikole J
  Canada

• Monday January 06, 2003 at 3:00 am
  The Associated Press is reporting on Sunday, January 5, that Kosovo had another shooting. Three people were killed.

  One of those killed was Tahir Zemaj, a former Albanian fighter. The others were his son and a relative.

  Zemaj was allied with Rugova. Does that give you any clue as to who did it?

  First they were shooting and killing Serbian police and now they kill their own.

  
  
  Kathryn Love
  SJC
  USA

• Monday January 06, 2003 at 8:15 am
  I think that Ms. Nikole J. had a very simplistic picture of the conflict in Bosnia. Perhaps reading a book by Sir Michael Rose could give her a better perspective. The book title is: FIGHTING for PEACE and is published in England.

  General Rose was UN commander of forces stationed in Bosnia and had access to all top politicians and military actors involved in that conflict. His views base on facts paint quite a different picture than the “eyewitness” account of “journalist” Nicole.
  
  D. Jovanovic
  USA

• Monday January 06, 2003 at 9:40 am
  To D. Jovanovic

  I believe Ms. Nikole was only quoting from an article in "Guardian" of which she disapproves
  
  vesa v
  france

• Monday January 06, 2003 at 12:41 pm
  
  Nikole: Do not be disheartened. This process of establishing the truth is going to take some time. It has taken the BBC three years to move this far from its propaganda in 1999 and there is much further to go. Those in the BBC who were sucked in, or suckered, like Little will never admit their errors. Why should you take the word of Little, of limited intelligence, over that of General Rose - as Mr Jovanovic has observed. Who can rely on the moral compass of a man like Little, and so may others in the BBC, who appear to support terrorism, murder and horrible murder at that by the KLA/Mujahedin/al-Qaeda/Nato alliance:

  “Less than a year later, the Kosovo Albanians drew the obvious lesson from the moral shambles of the Dayton Agreement and it was this: in the real world only force will get you what you want … Here is Richard Holbrooke, the US envoy, admitting that, yes, at a secret meeting with the KLA in 1998, he did indeed tell them that Kosovo independence was an option, and the clear implication in the film that this actively encouraged the KLA to step up their campaign of terror against Serb policemen and civilians.” Alan Little.

  http://www.guardian.co.uk/tv_and_radio/story/0,3604,869210,00.html

  Try to see the programme yourself. The programme is important for the well-known facts it omits as well as those it reveals. Remember a New Labour triumvirate rules the BBC but this will not always be so. The bias and extremism of Little becomes apparent when he dwells upon Racak. He, like the programme under his review, does not mention prior KLA atrocities and massacres such as those at Orahovac and Klecka.

  One very interesting revelation was that Milosevic offered a peaceful solution at Rambouillet to the problems in Kosovo by proposing membership of Nato along and Nato bases throughout Serbia. This was dismissed without consideration. Instead Nato opted for promoting Islamic domination of Kosovo by war and all that war entails: the destruction of life and property the destitution of the Serbs and the impoverishment, both morally and economically, of the Western powers.

  Little concludes by stating “By revealing who chose violence, when, where and how they did it, it (the programme) quietly, unsensationally lays the blame squarely where it belongs.” On that we all agree: Islamic terror supported by Nato as the programme amply demonstrates.
  
  Peter Taylor
  Herts/UK

• Monday January 06, 2003 at 2:32 pm
  PT

  The BBC was never tricked nor 'suckered' into providing the most base pro-war agit/prop. They are as guilty of deliberatly spreading lies, half-truth, and misinformation as Adem Demaci's CDHR.

  It took me nearly ten years of closely following to reluctantly reach this conclusion.

  Ask question "If the BBC were run by a board of 'sinister' censors how would its reporting be any different from it current reporting ?.

  answer....not one tiny bit.

  The BBC (along with NPR & NYT) are little different than 'Der Struemer'or 'Pravada' in their slavish devotion to promoting the political leadership of the day.

  re.....

  someone's comment that suggested that the KLA used to kill 'Serbs' and now is killing "Albanians'.

  Wrong

  The KLA was always focused on killing neutralist and loyalist Albanians. Up until Clinton's bombing began in March 1999, the KLA had killed many more Albanians than it had Serbs. The worst oppressors of the Kosovo Albanian were the KLA in 1998, 1999, and beyond.

  The statistics are difficult to analyze, but a reasonable conclusion is comparing 12 months of 2000 with 12 months prior to March 23, 1999, There was a fourfold increase in Albanian civilians who were murdered. Once the Yugoslav government police and gendarme were no longer around to protect the Albanian population from the KLA, the Albanian civilian murder rate skyrocketed.
  
  AP V
  NY
  NY

• Monday January 06, 2003 at 2:57 pm
  Hi all The ICTY is a fake court, an illegal tribunal.Without any right to do so it arrests persons and detains them.Again and again, one is kidnapped and deprived of his freedom for years before an illegal sentence is rendered.It is not a contribution to peace but rather a plague for all peoples of the world and individuals. Systematically biased, its preposterous ways of promoting flagrant injustice and imperial order are germs of nocuous life that will soon appear in emerging new wars. In the Balkans, sadly, but not only there. The Voice of Moscow today made the announcement (in French) that the former president of Serbia Milutinovic, wich mandate expired on 29 December last year (as it is said), is refusing to volontary surrender to the ICTY. In an interview broadcasted on the Belgrade television, he said that he considers not to have commited any war crime.
  
  Jean Chevrier
  Montréal
  Canada

• Monday January 06, 2003 at 3:02 pm
  

  From today' New York Times

  President Bush's national security team is assembling final plans for administering and democratizing Iraq after the expected ouster of Saddam Hussein. Those plans call for a heavy American military presence in the country for at least 18 months, military trials of only the most senior Iraqi leaders and quick takeover of the country's oil fields to pay for reconstruction.

  Click: HERE
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Conn. USA

• Monday January 06, 2003 at 3:20 pm
  

  I realize many of you will have to register with the New York Times . Anyone interested in having the article forwarded please indicate email address and I will do so. The article is truly devastating.
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Conn. USA

• Monday January 06, 2003 at 3:29 pm
  

  Here is the NAZI past again:

  But the handover of more and more responsibility from the military administration to an international civilian administration - and several years down the road to an Iraqi-run government - is still murky. Officials, referring to the ruling Baath Party, say "de-Baathification" of the nation will be at least as complex as de-Nazification was in Germany.

  And who are the NAZI of today?
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Conn. USA

• Monday January 06, 2003 at 4:58 pm
  No Gogol, this is no nazism, this is MONEYSM. Believe them when they say they despise nazism. The foundation of nazism is a nation with its values no matter how pervert these values can be. Moneyism doesn't go with any values, it's a pure form. I think it may turn out to be more ruinous than the former because of this lack of ideology or norms of whatever kind. We can see it at work in Miloševiæ (Yugoslavia) case very well.
  
  Jagoš M.
  Lj.
  Sl.

• Monday January 06, 2003 at 7:19 pm
  The BBC's programme may not have been the hight of wartime propaganda but it did, presuamably deliberately, claim that the KLA's weapons were only obtained locally, that the British government believed that it was Serbs doing most of the killing in Kosovo & supported the official view of the Racak massacre - all of which they must know are untrue. I have posted similarly in more detail on http://community.channel4.com/6/ubb.x?a=tpc&s=162603557&f=503603557&m=8366009491 There has been discussion here on whether Milosevic is sufficiently noble to deserve our support. We do not support him because he is a saint/pragmatist/socialist according to taste but because he is not guilty (& many others are). Also the best chance of getting the release of other "convicted" persons & justice for ordinary people is for Milosevic to continue disproving the case. I would particularly like to mention Fikret Aklic liberal & popular Bosnian moslem leader who was recently sentenced to 20 years by the current Croatian Nazi leadership for "war crimes" without even a mention by such as the BBC.
  
  Neil Craig
  Glasgow
  UK

• Monday January 06, 2003 at 7:56 pm
  Neil, What was that farce of a BBC programme about Milosevic like? I didn't even bother to watch it (probably because I know the typical lies they spew out about the Serbian nation). Fikret Abdic,just like Milosevic,was a political foe of the West because he worked with the Bosnian Serbs and the Bosnian Croats during the war in Bosnia,and did not want to have anything to do with Izetbegovic's so-called "multiethnic" (ahemmm....multiethnic Islamic state) Bosnia rhetoric. Anyone who is familiar with recent Yugoslav history will be aware that Izetbegovic himself said something along the lines of "modern Bosnia will inevitably have to become an Islamic state". He also wrote a thesis on the creation of an Islamic state in the 1970's. Now,if someone tells me that he does NOT want a centralised Bosnia which will be ruled by Muslims and eventually be turned into an Islamic state,I'd laugh my ass off! Cheers.
  
  Ryan Mircic
  St.Albans
  UK

• Monday January 06, 2003 at 8:08 pm
  Don't even get me started on the Racak "massacre". Out of 45 villagers that were found,38 of them had traces of gun powder on their hands,indicating legitimate KLA targets (once a civilian starts carrying a weapon in a war situation,he/she can no longer be seen as a civilian). Madeleine Not So Bright at the time claimed that NATO intervened because of the deaths of 45 villagers. So,according to her,the deaths of 45 villagers was worth bombing an entire country for 78 days and nights,killing about 2,000 civilians and causing about $30 billion worth of damage. What a load of crap! There is repression going on around the world every single minute by dictatorships that are 50 times worse than what Milosevic was doing in Kosovo. Take a look at Guatemala,why isn't it being bombed because of army repression against Mayans? Why isn't Turkey being bombed for its killing of Kurds in eastern Turkey? Why wasn't Indonesia bombed for its policy towards East Timor? Simple. Although those governments were far worse than anything Milosevic did in Kosovo,they encouraged "free market reform" which is exactly what the West wants. In other words,privatising all public sectors,factories,shops,etc. Milosevic,on the other hand,preferred to keep most aspects of the economy under public control. The West did not like that one bit.....
  
  Ryan Mircic
  St.Albans
  UK

• Monday January 06, 2003 at 11:48 pm
  Ryan Most of us who came from behind the iron curtain remember the political science and socialism classes in school,even if at that time we did not understand it and ( mostly slept during class ). Now we have a clear vision about it and can rationalize it. My kids were born here in US and know nothing about economics ,political science ,or geography.,as is the case with the majority of Americans. Its a total brain wash done to people by the system ,and now is even more because the system became more sophysticated and the media is feeding the ideas of the special interest groups ( they own the media ). On the other hand you are talking about imperialism and global economy. Get cheap labor and maximize your profits. I can't even buy a shirt made in US.Everything is garbage from China and is expensive too. All former Eastern countries are becoming source of cheap labor for German Companies. Look at Chech republic All the big factories are under German control,and Slovakia was left to the dogs.Visiting Europe before and after the introduction of euro I saw that the prices of goods almost doubled when they introduced the euro.Croatia and Slovenia are trying to sell their goods on the European market,but because they are of inferior quality they are sold in other eastern european countries including Serbia. In Romania there is no more industry left. You see the tigani at evey corner begging and trying every kind of specula. Why do you think that all the western countries are sending back the tigani to their county of origin like Slovakia ,Hungary , Romania,Serbia. They are stealing all over Europe. What this has to do with this forum. First of all YU. was a developed country with a strong industry and a strong army. It was a leader in the non alignment movement. It was a threat to nobody . I remember my first trip to Belgrade in 1965 during Christmas . I came from Timisoara 160 Km north from Belgrade.. The difference between Timisoara and Belgrade was like night and day. The streets in Timisoara were dark and empty ,the stores were selling the standard socialist goods, no Christmas spirit. On the other hand Belgrade was full of life,everystore was decorated for christmas,people were walking on the streets .At night the whole city was full of lights ,christmas trees on every window. stores were full of customers . The whole city was vibrant , a metropola like Paris. Even today I remeber that beautifull experience I had then. I don't know how Belgrade looks today at Christmas ( Vera : can you help here ?) I bet that today the big Corporations of western Europe are looking to grab everyting from YU. This Corp.s. are not interested about local population ,everything is the bottom line. How much profit for the Company stockholders and CEOs. This international greed has matured already and its devastating effect is coming back as a bumerang. Look at South America. We have already 3 countries that started to move to the left because the corruption( $$$$$) killed their social and economic structure. The Hague tribunal doesn't care about the international law it does't apply here.Do you think that they care about the victims of the war.( Its irrelevant ,as the judge says ) In a way I think that this trial is good because it will dig out all the crap . The court started digging the hole and Milosevic will finish it. The question is who will fall in the hole.
  
  Vasile Ianos
  NJ