MILOSEVIC TRIAL DISCUSSION ARCHIVE

Is Slobodan Milosevic getting a fair trial?
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• discussion archive

• Wednesday January 07, 2004 at 2:10 am
  WITCHES BREW AT THE HAGUE: My Apologies to William Shakespeare

  Thrice the brinded May hath mew'd.

  Thrice; and once the hedge-pig Carla del Ponte whin'd.

  Harpier Nice cries: 'tis time, 'tis time.

  Round about the caldron go;

  In the poison'd entrails throw.

  Toad, that under the cold stone,

  Days and nights hast thirty-one

  Swelter'd venom sleeping got,

  Boil thou first i' the charmed pot!

  Double, double toil and trouble;

  Fire burn and caldron bubble.

  Fillet of fenny snake,

  In the caldron boil and bake;

  Eye of newt, and toe of frog,

  Wool of bat, and tongue of dog,

  Adders' fork, and blind-worms sting,

  Lizards's leg, and howlet's wing,

  For a charm of powerful trouble,

  Like a hell-broth boil and bubble.

  Double, double toil and trouble,

  Fire, burn; and, caldron bubble.

  Scale of dragon, tooth of wolf,

  Witches' mummy, maw and gulf

  Of the ravin'd salt-sea shark,

  Root of hemlock, digg'd i' the dark,

  Liver of blaspheming Jew,

  Gall of goat, and slips of yew

  Sliver'd in the moon's eclipse

  , Nose of Turk, and Tartar's lips,

  Finger of birth-strangl'd babe,

  Ditch-deliver'd by a drab,

  Make the gruel thick and slab;

  Add thereto a tiger's chauldron,

  For the ingredients of our caldron.

  All. Double, double toil and trouble,

  Fire, burn; and, caldron bubble.

  Cool it with a baboon's blood,

  Then the charm is firm and good.

  Enter Hecate to the other three Witches

  . O, weel done! I commend your pains,

  And everyone shall share i' th' gains,

  And now about the caudron sing

  Like elves and fairies in a ring,

  Enchanting all that you put in.

  By the pricking of my thumbs,

  Something wicked this way comes.
  
  Walter Trkla
  Kamloops BC
  Canada

• Wednesday January 07, 2004 at 5:17 am
  Arandjel Pasic,

  So Kostunica is making an offer to the SPS? So what, it isn't like the SPS took Kostunica up on his offer.

  According to my information, Mr. Dacic rejected the idea out of hand.
  
  Andy Wilcoxson
  Washington, United States

• Wednesday January 07, 2004 at 8:20 am
  Dear M Donne,

  Thank you for your kind interest, - I can assure you, that I am neither 'abducted' nor am I necessarily permanently silenced (January 05, 2004 at 11:37 am).

  There are at least two very valid reasons though for me to currently keeping a 'low profile' in this 'Milosevic debate': Firstly I have been somehow overwhelmed by the testimony of ret. U.S. General Clark; in fact I wonder if Mr. Milosevic's up and coming (if so it is?) defense could be based almost exclusively on this NATO Commanders 'utterings' in The Hague on December 15-16, 2003 ?

  You may recall, that I have previously regarded testimonies such as those by 'Ambassador' William Walker, that CIA-man gone KVM (ring-)leader and his Second in Command, Canadian General Mauisonneuve, as very important in particular for their relevance to the socalled 'massacre' at the village of Racak on 15. January, 1999. There are others too, and I still see these as important, even crucial of course, - but mightn't Wesley Clark's "personal perceptions and extrapolations" (David), mere opinions and statements (for that his utterings were!) be 'pivotal'?

  I note with interest that a number of discussion participants, including Pera Bora (and indeed yourself, say December 30, 2003 at 9:13 am) have begun exploring this in new directions, that I hadn't thought of previously - indeed that none of us could envisage; and then there is of course the question of 'Srebrenica' (to which I personally never attached significance, but) which was nevertheless covered in a very interesting way during the General's infamous alleged 'one-to-one" chat with mr. Milosevic regarding the President's suggested prior knowledge on sort of 'everything'.

  I think that in spite of the serious doubts one may indeed have about the 'truthfullness' of this key witness, mr. Clark's testimony (or what you might wish to call it) is 'interesting', if not necessarily easily handled (requiring not only lawyers skills, but also very much those of a psychologist/psychiatrist - or even a shrink (as well as (U.S.?) military experience etc.).

  Seconly there is also a more domestic issue involved on my part: As you appreaciate that I am Danish (-speaking), rather than Anglophile (I still envy Peter Taylor and others for their command of the English, but do not tell). I partly work with these 'legal' matters in that native language of mine, seeking to employ of course also experiences and expertice available in my own country of Denmark (which I think is very particular, yet very relevant).

  That involves some work, it is time sonsuming I can admit that much, - and I also regret to say that I am still, after all these years, strangely and unhappily isolated, even to some extent scorned in this little Queendom (in this particular respect).

  These concerns of language I share with Serbs and others of course, - and indeed I believe to quite an extent with President Milosevic and his assistants: Did you notice for an example the little exchange concerning the meaning of the word 'delivery' (which the President seemed to take rather more 'concrete' as 'delivery of Serbs' - in physical terms - than it was intended by the smooth mr. Clark (whom I would never quote anybody for calling a 'slimeball').

  In the end I guess that what I am really looking for is an indication of willingness from someone maybe even wiser and more professional than any of us to take a lead, providing the final direction for the defense (accepting of course that the responsibility and final say rests with mr. Milosevic).
  
  Godfred Louis-Jensen
  Copenhagen
  Denmark

• Wednesday January 07, 2004 at 12:59 pm
  
  The Trial of Milosevic and the Roman Inquisition

  Walter your recent quotation of Brecht poetry reminded me of a visit to the theatre many years ago to see his play “Galileo Galilei”. In this wonderful play Brecht describes Galileo’s fight against the charge of heresy for revealing his telescopically discovered truths about the solar system which contradicted the teachings of the powerful Roman Church of that time. The Church taught that the Earth was stationary at the centre of the world: Galileo, a devout Christian, sought to explain that the Earth moved around the Sun along with eight other planets. For this ‘heresy’ he was summoned before the Inquisition, found guilty and sentenced to life imprisonment in the form of house arrest.

  While one cannot compare directly the plight of the medieval scientist Galileo with that of Milosevic there are elements of their situations that may be compared. For example concerning the ICTY and the Inquisition: Here are some comments taken largely from the Nationmaster site:

  The Roman Church consolidated its power in the early Middle Ages whereupon heretics came to be regarded as enemies of society. The crime of heresy was defined as a deliberate denial of the Church’s articles of truth of the faith.

  Nato consolidated its power in the late Twentieth Century whereupon those states that opposed its doctrines, in particular on the dismemberment of Yugoslavia, became its enemies.

  “The Inquisition was a permanent institution in the Church charged with the eradication of heresies: Doctrinal arguments were settled by Church Councils. Those whose beliefs or practices deviated sufficiently from the orthodoxy of the councils now became the objects of efforts to bring them into the fold. Resistance often led to persecution.”

  The ICTY is an institution established by Nato (nominally the UN) charged with purging those who opposed its demands and eclectically those except Nato members and the leaders of its KLA allies who committed war crimes in the former Yugoslavia.

  “The judge, or inquisitor, could bring a suit against anyone. The accused had to testify against himself/herself and not have the right to face and question his/her accuser. It was acceptable to take testimony from criminals, persons of bad reputation, excommunicated people, and heretics.”

  The ICTY prosecutor can bring a suit against anyone regarded as an enemy of Nato in the former Yugoslavia. The accused does not have the right to question his accusers in all cases. In those cases where he is allowed to face his accusers his right to question them is at the pleasure of the President of the Court and is often denied. It is acceptable to take testimony from criminals, persons of bad reputation and heretics. Hearsay evidence is also acceptable along with written testimony. Evidence may be given in secret and may be censored.

  “Sentences could not be appealed. Sometimes inquisitors interrogated entire populations in their jurisdiction. The accused was given a summary of the charges and had to take an oath to tell the truth. Various means were used to get the cooperation of the accused. Although there was no tradition of torture in Christian canon law, this method came into use by the middle of the 13th century. The findings of the Inquisition were read before a large audience. Life imprisonment was always accompanied by the confiscation of all the accused's property”

  Sentences of the ICTY may not be appealed in the normal sense. After two years of witnesses it seems that the inquisitors have interrogated the entire populations within their jurisdiction. Various doubtful means are being used to get the cooperation of the accused. The predetermined findings of the Trial of Milosevic will be broadcast to the world. Milosevic’s assets, as far as possible, have already been seized by the court.

  “In 1542, a permanent congregation was staffed with cardinals and other officials, whose task it was to maintain and defend the integrity of the faith and to examine and proscribe errors and false doctrines. This body … became the supervisory body of local Inquisitions. The Holy Office also has an international group of consultants, experienced scholars of theology and canon law, who advise it on specific questions. In 1616 these consultants gave their assessment of the propositions that the Sun is immobile and at the center of the universe and that the Earth moves around it, judging both to be "foolish and absurd in philosophy," and the first to be "formally heretical" and the second "at least erroneous in faith" in theology. It was this same body in 1633 that tried Galileo.”

  Similarly today’s ICTY is stuffed with officials to maintain and defend Nato’s ‘doctrine’ that the Serbs are almost uniquely war criminals in Bosnia and Kosovo: Especially in its supervisory capacity where it ensures that its former allies are exonerated for their crimes by generally keeping them out of their courts.

  Just as the Inquisition’s consultants assessed Galileo’s truths to be false so the ICTY’s consultants define “ethnic cleansing” to be that carried out by Serbs on Kosovo’s ethnic Albanians whereas the truth is that “ethnic cleansing” has been carried out by Kosovo’s Albanians on Kosovo’s minorities, mainly Serbs. Consultant Patrick Ball’s ‘scientific’ assessment of “10,356” Albanian victims falls into the same category where the total victims found amounts to some 4,500: most of whom are victims of the KLA.

  I fear that this is not the end of similarities. But as in the case of Galileo history will have the last word: Unfortunately for Galileo some 350 years after the event! In spite of this the Roman Inquisition, given the context and the period, was a far more civilised and honourable institution than that of the ICTY trial of Milosevic run by Carla del Ponte and Judge Richard May.

  Is the Trial of Milosevic fair? Was the Trial of Galileo fair? Can any trial be fair when truth is denied by the court?

  Post Scriptum

  Walter: when quoting verse you may advance the text one line at a time by prefacing each line with the following three characters: <BR>

  As you know the individual verses may be formed by using the paragraph code: <P>
  
  Peter Taylor
  Herts/UK

• Wednesday January 07, 2004 at 1:00 pm
  
  
  HTML Correction
  Hopefully

• Wednesday January 07, 2004 at 1:43 pm
  According to a Press Advisory

  dated The Hague, 7 January 2004

  the ICTY court hearings in the Milosevic trial are scheduled to resume as follows:

  13 January 2004 in Courtroom I 09:00 - 13:45

  15 January 2004 in Courtroom I 09:00 - 13:45

  16 January 2004 in Courtroom I 09:00 - 13:45

  The regular weekly press briefings will resume on Wednesday 14 January.
  
  Godfred Louis-Jensen
  Copenhagen
  D E N M A R K

• Wednesday January 07, 2004 at 3:18 pm
  Peter, as usual, your posts are magnificent. Like Mr. Godfred Louis-Jensen stated your writing is brilliant. Have you been published? Thank you for the HTML suggestion and I really like the Nationmaster site. Your comparison of the ICTY and the Inquisition is classic. Thank you.
  
  Walter Trkla
  Kamloops BC
  Canada

• Wednesday January 07, 2004 at 3:20 pm
  Peter Taylor-This article is sure to infuriate you. I'm looking forward to your comments.

  Note the following two passages: "the bottom line is that Serbia is a political swamp. It remains a nationalist and quasi-Mafia state, the product of a failure by reform elements to clean house and by Western countries to face facts. The latter largely avoided putting conditions on their aid and coddled the democratic forces, repeatedly citing extenuating circumstances for their failure to deliver and turning a blind eye to their corruption."

  and

  "The West failed to act when the political possibilities for movement on Kosovo were greatest. It has more recently compounded the problem by continuing to insist, after four years, that the freely elected Kosovo government cannot run the country and that a U.N. mission must do it. Western countries have developed a formula for further delay by insisting that Kosovo meet certain wonderful standards for good governance before it may even have an effective government with real decision-making powers, and also before its final status can be considered."

  Some contradiction surely?

  Snatching Defeat in The Balkans

  By Morton Abramowitz Wednesday, January 7, 2004; Page A21

  A rabid nationalist party led by an indicted war criminal emerged as Serbia's leading political party in last month's elections. It is just the latest manifestation of how badly things are deteriorating in the Balkans. European-American collaboration -- successful in ending the war in Bosnia and the Serbian oppression in Kosovo, and in helping to rebuild the region -- is now turning success into failure. The promise of integration into the European Union, however important, is not sufficient to change the Balkans. Unless the West stops putting off difficult political decisions or making bad ones, prospects for reversing the downward trend will remain dismal.

  To be sure, resumption of major hostilities is not on the horizon anywhere in the Balkans. But that does not justify relegating the area to the backwater it has become, particularly with regard to the U.S. government. It's not just that so much effort and treasure have been spent on trying to help produce decent, functioning states. Western policy is running the risk of creating mini-"black holes" in Europe where violent nationalism, crime and terrorism are rampant.

  What have been the mistakes? Let's start with Serbia, the biggest player in the region.

  The stench of Slobodan Milosevic's rule still pervades Serbia. In no East European country undergoing a post-communist transition -- not even in Russia -- has the country's leader been assassinated, as Prime Minister Zoran Djindjic of Serbia was. He was killed not because he sent Milosevic to The Hague for trial but because he was preparing a crackdown on some of the criminal elements that continue to wield influence in post-Milosevic Serbia.

  Despite considerable Western aid and some progress, notably in economic reform, the bottom line is that Serbia is a political swamp. It remains a nationalist and quasi-Mafia state, the product of a failure by reform elements to clean house and by Western countries to face facts. The latter largely avoided putting conditions on their aid and coddled the democratic forces, repeatedly citing extenuating circumstances for their failure to deliver and turning a blind eye to their corruption.

  The West made another big mistake with its intense effort to keep Serbia and Montenegro together. By preventing the last step in the dissolution of Yugoslavia, the West sought both to stave off movement toward an independent Kosovo and to have one instead of two states for the EU to consider. It bludgeoned two real states into a bizarre confederation that does not work and likely will vanish if Montenegro is allowed to have a promised referendum on independence in 2005.

  Establishing Serbia-Montenegro kept senior leaders in both countries tied up for years, reducing their focus on internal reform and wasting time and effort on the fancies of Western statesmen. Worse, the effort kept Serbia absorbed in the past, à la Yugoslavia, rather than tending to its future and the critical need to democratize the Serbian state and get rid of its criminal elements.

  Moreover, rather than preparing Serbia to face its Kosovo dilemma, which many Serbs seemed ready to do after the Kosovo war, the West acted as if Serbian sovereignty in Kosovo might actually be restored. Instead of encouraging Serbs to accept the reality of the loss of Kosovo, Western envoys in Belgrade encouraged -- even today -- Serbia's leaders to believe there remained a serious role for Serbia in Kosovo. Part of the West's rationale was that the new Serbian government was fragile, and it should do nothing to make life more difficult for it by discussing Kosovo's future. You can bet the same argument will be made by Western ambassadors as Serbia tries once again to fashion a new government now after its latest elections.

  Finally and more broadly on Kosovo, the West has faltered by consciously putting off consideration of its final status. Some Western governments are simply opposed to Kosovo's independence, but for most democratic governments the attitude is simply: Why make painful decisions when you don't have to? Few countries are willing to bear short-term costs for uncertain long-term benefits.

  The West failed to act when the political possibilities for movement on Kosovo were greatest. It has more recently compounded the problem by continuing to insist, after four years, that the freely elected Kosovo government cannot run the country and that a U.N. mission must do it. Western countries have developed a formula for further delay by insisting that Kosovo meet certain wonderful standards for good governance before it may even have an effective government with real decision-making powers, and also before its final status can be considered. The West has thus dug itself an even bigger hole on the Kosovo issue, and uncertainty about the future of all three entities -- Serbia, Montenegro and Kosovo -- has become greater, making investment and economic growth in the region all the more difficult. Delay and the recent Serbian elections have also made the partition of Kosovo more likely.

  Nobody said that there is an easy solution to Kosovo. Independence, with or without partition, is a complicated matter with uncertain consequences. Certainly there will have to be negotiations between Serbs and Kosovars on any final solution. Major international considerations are also involved. But when delay has been the Western response in the Balkans, the results have invariably been bad. From the current Western approach we can look forward to deadlock, political instability, increased ethnic tensions, low-level violence, continued Mafia-dominated governments and little growth.

  Cooperation between Europe and the United States is great, except when they pursue bad policies. Democratic governments are less prone to admit error and more to change the subject and rhapsodize on all the good things they think they are doing. It is time to get a concerted Western policy that truly helps reform Serbia, frees Serbia and Montenegro from their pseudo-union, allows the people of Kosovo to have a real government, and begins the painful process of resolving the Kosovo question.

  The writer is a senior fellow at the Century Foundation and former president of the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace.
  
  Robert Hessen
  Seattle
  Washington

• Wednesday January 07, 2004 at 4:39 pm
  

  Obviously this Mr. Morton Abramowitz is as short sighted as the people he is criticizing. His notion of the West clouds his argument and analysis of the situation. Indeed the world will be simpler if there was a West as monolithical in ideas and views as the West Mr. Morton Abramowitz describes. But don't you worry the differences within this West are growing bigger by the day and Imperial America will have to rethink her position in this West by perhaps calling herself the Extreme West leaving Europe, with the exception of Old England, where it is: in Europe.

  It is a pity, really, the poor kids of America don't get any more geography lessons, globalism without a globe spells trouble.
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Shangri-La

• Wednesday January 07, 2004 at 5:41 pm
  When Abramowitz speaks of the West, he no doubt means the West Bank.... (not to mention the London and Paris Banks).

  They should build a fence between Serbia and Kosovo, right Mr Abramowitz? Adolf would be proud of you, and your revised concepts of Lebensraum, Mr Abramowitz.

  Yeshiva helps those who help themselves, so what the heck?
  
  David
  Oztralia

• Wednesday January 07, 2004 at 8:18 pm
  
  Walter: Thank you for your kind comments of appreciation. No I have never “published” unless you count the occasional writing of specifications, proposals, operating instructions and the like associated with my work in engineering before I retired.

  You are no mean writer yourself. Indeed I enjoy reading most of the posts here that contain honestly held opinions: so much so that it would be invidious to pick out any by name.

  In some ways I feel humble in such company for I have at least two advantages over many. After all I have been practising English for more than seventy years if you include such utterances as “ma-ma” and “da-da”. For many I imagine English is a second language. Also being retired I have ample time to research and compose my thoughts.

  Godfred in particular need not feel constrained by his use of English as a second language. As the philosopher Earl Russell pointed out in another context, using watch makers as his example: ‘It is all very well to make pretty watches but the purpose of watches is to tell the time’. So it is with language: the purpose of language is to communicate and if it is pretty so much the better but it is not necessary.
  
  Peter Taylor
  Herts/UK

• Wednesday January 07, 2004 at 8:32 pm
  
  Robert Hessen:

  I need sleep now. But I am intrigued by on the questions you have raised and I will try to post some comments tomorrow.
  
  Peter Taylor
  Herts/UK

• Thursday January 08, 2004 at 2:00 am
  Peter, - I absolutely agree with you on the purpose of watches as well as of 'communication'; we should go for precision rather than beauty - but 'if it is pretty (in one way or another, then that is) so much the better', maybe even:

  "LIKE A BIG DOOR REVOLVING ON A SMALL HINGE..."

  (Mr. Milosevic - summing up the significance of the photos of the victims at Racak, - during his crossexamination of William Walker. Truly a turning point...).
  
  Godfred Louis-Jensen
  Copenhagen
  D E N M A R K

• Thursday January 08, 2004 at 2:47 am
  Vad fan säger du egentligen, Godfred?
  
  Corfitz Ulfeldt
  Frederiksodde
  DK

• Thursday January 08, 2004 at 10:54 am
  MP Ma daj bre. Politicians are politicians whatever party they are from. SPS had a long time to show who they are. Patriotism is not cheap talking but doing.

  SPS proved patriotism when they turned back against Serbs in Croatia, Bosnia so please dont tell me that.

  Andy Milorad Vucelic Vice President of SPS said that talks are going on with all parties and he made quote on camera to say that SPS consider join concentrated government. This government would be with all parties including SRS and DOS.

  Hungry for power like always. They are the same as other ones
  
  Arandjel Pasic
  Jug

• Thursday January 08, 2004 at 12:26 pm
  Arandjel , if Serbia would've activelly intervened in Croatia and Bosnia , Nato troops would've been patrolling Belgrade at this moment , is this scenario the one you would be proud of? , and as far as Croats , Bosnian Croats , Serb Croats , Bosnian Serbs and Muslim ,there were plenty of idiots claiming 200 miles around their hauses as a new "republic" and those "local" ustase , cetnik and handzar" are the ones that deserve to be hung by the balls (sorry,testicles). To late to start blaming one specific side and feel lucky that President Milosevic was in power otherwise you guys would,ve lost even the way you walk . "promislise malo brate svi ste krivi sto nema Juge vise"
  
  M P
  Panama

• Thursday January 08, 2004 at 12:43 pm
  
  “We are not paid to be moral”

  Robert Hessen: I believe that a succinct answer to your questions lies in the comment above made by a spokesperson, for Ruder Finn the PR firm, answering the question: ‘Why did Ruder Finn dish the dirt on Serbia?’.

  In broad brush strokes let me say: it seems to me we live in a class structured society, always have and always will do: to a greater or lesser extent. The working class do the work that is necessary, the middle class do the work that is not necessary and the idle rich do no bloody work at all: but organise it all to suit their purposes. And herein lies the problem. The middle class - including the media ‘chattering class’ as we call them in the UK - are beholden to their masters for their superior lifestyles, which are destroyed if and when they give offence.

  As with justice so democracy depends upon the electorate being truthfully informed. This in turn depends upon a free press or media. But our so-called free press in the so-called western democracies is free only to its owners. For the major newspapers in the UK this amounts to some ten people in a population of some sixty million: So much for freedom of the press. Even worse the BBC, nominally owned and paid for by all UK licence payers, is actually controlled by the Government Party - and therein lies another democratic fairy tale - of the day. Other broadcasting stations are generally owned and controlled by cartels of a few very rich people.

  Writers such as Morton Abramowitz who seem to be in the majority ‘are paid to do a job and they do it. They are not paid to be moral’. Writers of integrity such as for example John Pilger are few and far between, have limited outlets for publication and are smeared as cranks by the hacks.

  Having placed Abramowitz in his proper setting lets examine what he has to say and who may be paying him to say it.

  First let us see who his paymasters may be: Did you know that Morton Abramowitz served as an advisor to the Kosovar Albanian negotiating team at the Rambouillet peace talks? Surprise, surprise!

  So what does Abramowitz have to say. In summary: ‘In spite of Nato’s meddling so far Serbia is a political swamp: a corrupt nationalist and quasi-mafia state’. Surprise, surprise!

  So what does Abramowitz recommend: ‘More meddling. Montenegro should be split off from Serbia and Kosovo handed over to the KLA thugs he advised at Rambouillet’. Surprise, surprise!

  The Imperial motto was ever thus: “Divide and rule”.
  
  Peter Taylor
  Herts/UK

• Thursday January 08, 2004 at 4:08 pm
  From BBC today

  A list of airlines from eight countries which are banned from flying in UK air space has been published. All airlines operating from Equatorial Guinea, Gambia, Liberia and Tajikistan have been banned. The others on the blacklist are Sierra Leone's Star Air and Air Universal, Cameroon Airlines, Albanian Airlines and Central Air Express, from DR Congo. The naming follows the Flash Airline crash in Egypt last week, and the revelation the Swiss had banned Flash. Two airlines banned or restricted in at least one other European country in 2002 because of poor safety records were still flying from the UK in last year.

  When Albanians are so good why is their airtransportation on black list?
  
  Dakic Ana
  Serbia

• Thursday January 08, 2004 at 7:17 pm
  

  The world is divided in classes of nations, the dominant nations, the dominated nations and the nations that resist domination.

  Expect the worst.
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Shangri-La

• Thursday January 08, 2004 at 7:46 pm
  

  Why are Albanian airlines banned? Because the Albanians have direct connections with terrorists and their sponsors. Some of the terrorists of course don't really know who their paying masters are so they could blow up the wrong place for the wrong reasons when they get out of hand and take the initiative on their own rather than under instructions.

  Witness the Mujahideen and their leaders who have gotten out of hand, and now their former masters are struggling to bring them under "control". Albanian "freedom fighters" (Joseph Liebermann's words) are the mujahideen of the Balkans and are going the way of the mujahideen and OBL in Afghanistan.

  Liebermann, Abramowitz and co would no doubt sing a different tune if the Albanians were living in Israel.

  Does anyone have any idea why so many Jewish guys in high places are supporting this Albanian "intifada" against the Serbs? I'd be most interested for a cogent explanation as I can't imagine why they'd have a problem with the Palestinian intifada if they can so readily support the Albanian mujahideen.

  Has Slobo run foul of these guys for some reason best known to themselves?
  
  David
  Oztralia

• Thursday January 08, 2004 at 10:03 pm
  

  David,

  Not entirely an explanation, but close enough:

  HERE
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Shangri-La

• Friday January 09, 2004 at 10:10 am
  
  Danish KFOR brutally searches Kosovo Serb village of Matica

  14:09 ZVECAN , Jan 6 (Tanjug) - The way in which members of the Danish Kfor have searched the Kosovo Serb village of Matica near Zvecan, demolishing houses and leaving chaos wherever they went, has embittered the villagers, the regional Most TV in Zvecan said on Tuesday.

  Strongly denouncing this, as they said, barbarian act, the local inhabitants said that God knows for how many times now, a brutal search of Kosovo Serb houses villages and houses was being carried out in the eve of major Orthodox holidays.

  Godfred: is your ‘free press’ and media informing your electorate of the part your troops are playing in support of the continuing ethnic cleansing of Kosovo’s minorities on behalf of the Kosovo Albanians? I bet Danish troops don’t dare demolish the houses of Kosovo Albanians and face the wrath of the KLA!

  While Milosevic is being tried by the ICTY for alleged human rights abuses committed by his forces in quelling an invasion of Serbian territory by the KLA - including al-Qaeda backed Mujahedin - the forces of the coalition-of-the-willing stomp around the world invading sovereign states justified by telling lies to their electorates: bombing, shelling, shooting, beating people to death and destroying their property in true Nazi style.

  Last week alone there were at least the summary execution of a family of four in a car including a woman and her child, a married couple shelled by a tank in their house in central Iraq: an Iraqi beaten to death by British forces was returned to his family while the sexual abuse of prisoners is long forgotten and now we hear Danish troops are demolishing Serb houses in Kosovo!

  This is rich irony indeed.
  
  Peter Taylor
  Herts/UK

• Friday January 09, 2004 at 12:03 pm
  Peter Taylor-You sound like a man who was once an English patriot-maybe even a Cold Warrior-who has become deeply disillusioned with England. I may be wrong. But there are many people who feel the way you do.

  According to Diana Johnstone's book, "Fool's Crusade," Morton Abramowitz was the brains-and I use the term loosely-behind the doctrine of "humanitarian intervention." Doubtless, Abramowitz is currently part of a Democratic administration-in-waiting. I would expect him to play a prominent part in a Dean-Clark administration in 2005.

  Therefore, we should be ready for a relaunched offensive against Serbia, the elimination of Republika Srpska, perhaps a "war on corruption" to replace the "war on terror," meddling in the Balkans and the Caucasus instead of meddling in the Middle East. Expect the discovery of a "smoking gun" document showing that Serbia had been bankrolling al-Qaeda for years, and that Saddam sent his weapons of mass destruction to Belgrade just before his fall. Same shit, in other words, different wrapping.
  
  Robert Hessen
  Seattle
  Washington

• Friday January 09, 2004 at 1:09 pm
  Extremely predictibal scenario and a diabolic and logic next step for The empire of evil, but new alliances are on the rise(east) and Russia will never tolerate it.
  
  Admiral Kuznetsov
  Severomorsk

• Friday January 09, 2004 at 2:07 pm
  MP with your logic you are say Serbian (SPS) policy in Kosovo is something to be ashamed because it brought international troops.

  it is better there are not troops in beograd but we are controlled by west anyway and use your argument - that is responsibility of SPS past policy

  Before at Jurist when talking about situation in Serbia there were many people saying it is better to live with dignity and to be poor than other way. Now you tell me I should be happy that Milosevic told people in Krajina one thing and did something else. No he should have gone to the end one way or gone complete opposite direction. He was too much coward to decide so he would tell different stories with different people. He never believed in any philosophy. And now you believe him after all he did? It is clear you were not here to see it.

  I lived and saw policy of SPS in 1990 period. We felt very unlucky to have to live here under such unsuccesful term war, losing diplomacy, refugees, bad economic policy, corruption of President Milosevic. You know the best left us in Serbia. They are all around the world 500,000 of them, educated, capable. Ask those people why they left.

  This is personal comment to MP. It does not mean Milosevic is guilty of genocide at Hague.
  
  Arandjel Pasic
  Yug

• Friday January 09, 2004 at 3:22 pm
  Arandjel , when the delivery nurses are incompetent they always blame the anus for any child birth complications . And for your info we are Croatian Serbs from Krajina . And my point my friend is , President Milosevic guilty or not should have never been sent to The Circus and that is something you applaud when it happened , what did you accomplished by accepting it?,I'll tell you , he was right and he did the right thing for Serbia , Bosnian Serbs wanted things their way and they got it , Croat Serbs should've stayed quiet would've gotten much much more than what they have now because the whole world would've stayed at their side . To finish my friend , now is to late for blaming sides , you assumed and you screwed yourselves remember,assumption is the mama of all f...ups , you were the ones that didn't understand that JUGA had to be swallowed by the NWO and went straight to the wolf's mouth , so stop blaming Milosevic and do something to restore Serb pride and dignity . Ne brigaj bit ce bolje .
  
  M P
  Panama

• Friday January 09, 2004 at 3:27 pm
  Has anyone been reading the commentaries of Mary Mostert? Some that I found interesting can be found at:

  http://www.bannerofliberty.com/OS11-99MQC/11-29-1999.1.html

  http://www.bannerofliberty.com/OS4-99MQC/4-5-1999.1.html

  http://www.bannerofliberty.com/BOL1-02MQC/2-20-2002.1.html

  She cites the World Almanac as a source to verify the 'ethnic cleansing of Serbs" from Croatia, Bosnia, & Kosovo. Her numbers clearly demonstrate such cleansing & imply atrocities against the Serbs. In this case, actions of Serb forces would constitute self-defence.

  She seems to use credible sources & cites numbers -- perhaps she would be a good defence witness.

  In any case, I would like to see some graphics of the World Almanac figures of ethnic movements. Maybe I'll work on that if anyone thinks it would be worthwhile.

  Mary Mostert always follows the money/arms -- Bin Laden -- drugs -- Clinton/Clark -- terrorist organizations.
  
  M Donne
  Canada

• Friday January 09, 2004 at 3:34 pm
  OOPS! That should read "also follows the money/arms", not "always follows".

  BTW, I also enjoy the writings of Peter Taylor & others. A couple of my favourites are phrases from (is it MP?) Panama:

  "Milosevic is doing a fantastic job of fighting like an upside down cat." -- love the imagery; and "There are no surprises in politics, only surprised."
  
  M Donne
  Canada

• Friday January 09, 2004 at 3:53 pm
  
  The Sheep that Roared

  Robert Hessen: I have never been much of a fan of extreme patriotism: look where it got the German people in the 1930’s. The aphorism “Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel” sums it up for me. I am unfamiliar with the term Cold Warrior?

  ‘Deeply disillusioned with Britain’s current political system’: You got me. There is nothing much wrong with England that getting rid of Blair and his ilk would not solve.

  Most of us going about our daily lives have little time or inclination but to follow our political shepherds like sheep. Being one of England’s countless millions disenfranchised by Blair’s ‘Third Way’ I might better be described as The Sheep that Roared: when he realised he was being fed massive lies over Kosovo by Blair, Cook, Robertson …

  As for Abramowitz I am surprised at your news that he is going to be a leading light for the Democrats. Have you read his recent fawning open letter to Dubya that may be summarised: ‘gizajob’? Now that’s what I call patriotic conduct: he sounds like the type of guy who would sell his grandmother for dog food if the price were right.

  I would not be surprised by the realisation of your prediction for “corrupt” Serbia. Funny that Kosovo escapes this attention: where political leaders - chums of Phoney Tony - are noted for being multiple murderers and its grinning police force parades mockingly with severed heads.

  Tell me I’m having a nightmare.
  
  Peter Taylor
  Herts/UK

• Friday January 09, 2004 at 4:59 pm
  

  Arandjel Pasic

  The big fish eats the little fish, irrespective of who is in power... Milosevic or Djindjic.

  You were going to get taken over by the multi-nationals in the form of US and British and Euro governments as proxys for the NWO. The only question is whether you resist being raped or lie back and enjoy it, or at least lie back and do nothing. In any event, you were targeted and were going to be f'd one way or another because of the new Pax Americana or Lebensraum concept (same thing)... cheap labour, bargain basement natural resources, etc, etc. YU was just the first on the list, other countries will follow. The West will stay as it is, no change required there, but the rest will form the colonies of the new Roman Empire, just as has been the case throughout history. The Patricians will live in luxury and splendour and the rest wil work on their behalf... Note how Herod served the Romans in the Middle East.

  Gogol

  Thanks for the link. The only thing I can assume is that the prominent Jewish people who are so anti-Serb are meant to demonstrate to the world at large that the Jews do not hate Muslims and will support them if their cause is "just". Provided it's not in Palestine, because quite "clearly" it cannot be so just.

  In other words, it may well be that the Serbs are being used as sacrificial lambs to cover another marketing exercise through weapons of mass dehumanisation.

  It cannot be that these guys have no idea of what is actually going on and who the KLA and Izetbegovic's co are. People like Liebermann, Lantos, Abramowitz, Wolfovitz and co are simply not THAT poorly informed!
  
  David
  Oztralia

• Friday January 09, 2004 at 5:11 pm
  Peter, - did I sense an ever so tiny bit of irony in your question on whether our media are informing of the part that Danish KFOR troops are playing on behalf of the Kosovo Albanians? (January 09, 2004 at 10:10 am).

  Maybe not; but since you asked me I have been carefully interviewing a number of my countrymen on this issue, excluding so far only people like our honourable Minister of the Defense, mr. Sven Aage Jensby, MF(V) who would usually be the very last person to know). So far not even one of those interviewed have had any idea of what you (or Tanjug) are talking about, - suggesting that at least the media coverage of said brutality hasn't been exaggerated.

  I shall continue my investigations though, - and promise to report back to this 'trial' forum as soon as I have information maybe from mr. Jensby himself (or from someone with similar brains).

  In the meantime may I suggest that you approach mr. Corfitz Ulfeldt of Frederiksodde, D(enmar)K, who on January 08, 2004 at 2:47 am was addressing me in some form of a semi-Swedish language? To my knowledge Mr. Ulfeldt (who shares his name with a notorious Danish traitor of the 17th Century!) is so far the only Dane on this discussion forum apart from myself, - and he may have a clue as to why the Danish KFOR so brutally searched the Kosovo Serb village of Matica, - if in fact that is what they did.

  Although the current case of Iraq is entirely different from that of Serbia (since we never deployed our submarine(s) to the Adriatic Sea or the Danube) I can reveal that the Danish media seem thrilled by the fact that so far our 500 strong Danish troops stationed in Southern Iraq near Basra have done absolutely nothing but having a nice time in their desert quarters, so appropriately called 'Camp Eden'. You may recall how this particular contingent of the coalition-of-the-willing originally brought with them a snow-plough (in addition to a submarine, the HMS 'Sælen'), and the rumour is that in addition to a Danish Christmas tree and Danish beer these items have secured the peace and utter tranquility of their environment ever since (in Iraq the Danish ocupation forces have reportedly been killing only a small, even negligible number of local people and but one of their own numbers, - who wasn't even beaten to death, but simply shot in the head during a nightly routine operation).

  Anyway, Peter Taylor! - let me address mr. Ulfeldt straight away since he may not necessarily read any English:

  Vad fan frågar du egentligen om, Corfitz? (meaning: What the hell is your question, mate?).
  
  Godfred Louis-Jensen
  Copenhagen
  D E N M A R K

• Friday January 09, 2004 at 8:16 pm
  I am not sure what hope we have on this forum. My daughter shared a text that will be used as background to her criminology course at a local university. This text, Canadian Criminology, by James C. Hackler states that Karadzic is responsible for all the death in Kosovo but to its credit it does speak of Milosevic’s dilemma as victor’s justice.

  Arandjel Pasic Milosevic was reacting to international pressure and he was blackmailed. He was blackmailed on Krajina and Bosnia and Kosovo. People who believe in human dignity are usually susceptible to blackmail. Milosevic expected honesty from the other side (NATO) but they set him up, and that was his mistake.
  
  Walter Trkla
  Kamloops BC
  Canada

• Friday January 09, 2004 at 9:50 pm
  Milosevic will probably die in prison, the sooner the better. Why should the civilized world waste money on his trial. He is guilty. Even the Serbs agree, but refuse to acknowledge that they still in denial.
  
  Arben Qosja
  Chicago
  USA

• Friday January 09, 2004 at 11:18 pm
  Arben. It looks that you have an inside information.Can you expand on it.?
  
  Vasile Ian
  NJ

• Saturday January 10, 2004 at 6:07 am
  Godfred Louis-Jensen,

  Tell your compatriots in Denmark about this:

  Tanjug
  January 6, 2004

  Danish KFOR brutally searches Kosovo Serb village of Matica

  14:09 ZVECAN , Jan 6 (Tanjug) - The way in which members of the Danish Kfor have searched the Kosovo Serb village of Matica near Zvecan, demolishing houses and leaving chaos wherever they went, has embittered the villagers, the regional Most TV in Zvecan said on Tuesday.

  Strongly denouncing this, as they said, barbarian act, the local inhabitants said that God knows for how many times now, a brutal search of Kosovo Serb houses villages and houses was being carried out in the eve of major Orthodox holidays.
  
  Andy Wilcoxson
  Washington, United States

• Saturday January 10, 2004 at 6:16 am
  I suppose I should have read Peter Taylor's post before I reacted to Godfred Louis-Jensen's comment about Danish troops in Kosmet.
  
  Andy Wilcoxson
  Washington, United States

• Saturday January 10, 2004 at 6:19 am
  For that matter, I should have read Godfred Louis-Jensen's last post more carefully. I thought he was talking about another incident entirely the first time I read it.
  
  Andy Wilcoxson
  Washington, United States

• Saturday January 10, 2004 at 7:27 am
  Arben Qosja . President Milosevic had to go on trial , precisely to protect his rights from people like you in a civilized way , which by the way leaves a lot from you to desire . And the waste of money we agree on that useless effort to justify an aggression on a country that was deffending itself from terrorism and terrorists that have been blessed by NATO and given a safe heaven for their activities and that same US led NATO aggression is kicking themselves in the ass for their huge f...up , they assumed that........and assumption is (read my yest. comm.)
  
  M P
  Panama

• Saturday January 10, 2004 at 9:22 am
  Actually Arben, the trial did its purpose so far. We know and anybody that knows how to read and write knows that complete accusation of Milosevic and Serbian people is bogus. Even more for me as a Serbian, now after all this my conscience is so clean concerning war in Yugoslavia. As for what is civilized, at least Serbs respect graves of the others that can not be said for Albanians. I Kosovska Mitrovica, not a single Albanian monument is damaged in SErbian part of the town. On the other hand in the southern part, Serbian graveyard is demolished; remains of our loved lay around and head stones are used by Albanians as a marble material for their houses. If we consider that civilization of the human kind began when we started to respect our dead where does it leave Albanians?
  
  Dakic Ana
  Serbia

• Saturday January 10, 2004 at 10:10 am
  Walter Trkla there is not only one problem with your argument. Kosovo. How did Milosevic react to Western pressure on Kosovo? In a clever way which would see Kosovo stay inside Serbia or in some other way? Did he know what would happen with Western intervention in Bosnia before? But he sacrifice Kosovo because he would be punished by voters. That is action of political coward. He is not only one. Most of them are. The West position was evil but always the same. I respect that. But Milosevic was changing position all the time.

  No Milosevic's problem was that he never had belief to help him. Everything was to be changed if necessary to be elected.

  A man who believs in human dignity does not sacrifice his people to be elected. He sacrifices himself and even take it up arse before to betray his brothers. I do not accept that Milosevic thought NATO would be honest. He was not stupid you know. You dont stay at the top of Balkan politics and expect honesty.

  David what you say is true but we know that DOS are selling us. Milosevic said he would save us.

  MP If he was going to take it up ass for Serbia he should have done it before. He should have accepted confederation, accept Ante Markovic and his economics. Yes I know what this means and I dont like it but better this and Serbs live in Kosovo, Bosnia, Croatia. Today you know how many refugees in Serbia. Only this is enough to say his policy was wrong. Nothing to say about corruption, crimes, all dead, poor people.

  Today it is too late to say but I didnt make mistake before. I was saying this for long time.

  Andy Ivica Dacic said today in interview with Blic that he had talks with DSS Kostunica about government. Not gossip but completely true. Either you are not informed or you do not tell truth.

  'it isn't like the SPS took Kostunica up on his offer' Andy yes they did. Is Dacic going to arrest Kostunica for his role in 'export' of Milosevic if they make coalition?
  
  Arandjel Pasic
  Yug

• Saturday January 10, 2004 at 11:31 am
  I could´nt prevent myself from encourage you to continue arguing with a little joke, Ulfeldt was, from a danish point of wiev a traitor, in service of King Karl X Gustav of Sweden in the 16th century(not 17th). Danish "peace keepers" are into very serious buissnes and i agree with you in that matter. Since everyone here seems to share the same point of wiev(so do i -to hell with the american "tribunal" of injustice)exept Mr.A Pasic(another traitor?), reading what you and Mr.Taylor write makes it really worth popin´in every now and then. Keep up the good work, Godfred!
  
  Corfitz ;) Ulfeldt
  Frederiksodde (the fortress)
  DK

• Saturday January 10, 2004 at 1:27 pm
  Accordimng to insider information, Biljana Plavsic is set to arrive in the Hague. Despite her agreement with the prosecution not to testify, Judge Richard May has issued a subpoena. Last year former Serbian President Biljana Plavsic began an 11-year prison sentence in Sweden after being convicted of war crimes. It is apperently a 'known secret' in the Tribunal's hallways that Plavic will put up a fight to appear, but refusing to appear once an order has been issued could result in an increased sentence or high fines.

  Ante Markovic will be back in the Hague as well. Most likely when the show returns from its break.
  
  Dan B
  Canada

• Saturday January 10, 2004 at 2:31 pm
  Mr. Ulfeldt, thank you so much for clarifying this matter, - and thank you indeed for your kind words (which Peter Taylor and many other 'Milosevic Trial Discussion' participants do deserve).

  Now: When Danish King Christian IV died on 28 February 1648 the nobleman Corfitz Ulfeldt (1606-64) - later to become a notorious traitor - was appointed acting head of state (Rigskansler), since Frederik III had yet to be elected as a heir to the Danish Crown.

  These few data would surely suffice to prove that mr. Ulfeldt did indeed operate during the 17th Century (and couldn't possibly have done so during the 16th Century too).

  For reference (alas in the Danish): http://www.danskekonger.dk/biografi/andre/ulfeldt.html

  Now back to serious work: I take it that you have no additional knowledge of an alleged 'incidence' in the village of Matica in Kosovo (presumeably) on 6 January, 2004? So far I haven't been able to find any further information either from Ritzau, Danish dailies - or indeed from the (otherwise incredibly rich) homepage of the Danish Defense:

  (http://www.forsvaret.dk/fko/dan).

  Hence I am compelled to be somewhat sceptical! I find it hard to believe, that Danish soldiers would deliberately 'demolish' the houses of villagers, - acting as some sort of Israeli IDF (or Nazi German) troops?

  Then of course it is true that strictly speaking 'our' boys in Kosovo are not 'peacekeepers' really, but an occupation force much on the lines of those in Iraq (who according the recent reports in the Danish newspapers are more concerned with doing the dishes, sweeping the floors of Camp Eden than with 'leaving chaos whereever'.

  Determined to sort out this matter, - and indeed to save the bits of reputation of the Danish KFOR if at all possible - I have drafted the below letter for mr. Sven Aage Jensby, the current Danish Minister of the Defense (and the closest we shall probably ever come to an equivalent of mr. Rumsfeld). In fact I was contemplating merely this version:

  Hr. Jensby! Hvorpaa var det at de haergede Matica?

  Reference (still in the Danish though): http://www.ebbemunk.dk/fritz/fritz4.html

  The very brevity of that message would serve to illustrate the point which I have been trying to make before: If you wish to express something very briefly, - please say it in Danish! Gogol, Peter Taylor - as well as Andy Wilcoxson? - and other 'trial' discussion participants would enjoy that, I think? On second thoughts however I'd settle for something rather like this, unless anybody would have different or further suggestions (there is still time for improvements as surely mr. Jensby, our Minister of Attack wouldn't bother to answer, or even to read his post during the week-end anyway):

  Draft letter for mr. Jensby starts)

  Dear Sir,

  RE.: Was in fact the village of Matica brutally searched by Danish KFOR troops?

  It has been brought to my attention that on Tuesday January 6, 2004 the Tanjug News Agency was reporting an incident alledgedly involving Danish KFOR troops in the village of Matica in the Municipality of Zwekan in the Serbian currently NATO-occupied Province of Kosovo.

  On January 8 'Reality Macedonia' (1) was relaying the below message from Tanjug, originating it seems from the regional Most TV and I quote:

  14:09 ZVECAN , Jan 6 (Tanjug) - The way in which members of the Danish Kfor have searched the Kosovo Serb village of Matica near Zvecan, demolishing houses and leaving chaos wherever they went, has embittered the villagers, the regional Most TV in Zvecan said on Tuesday.

  Strongly denouncing this, as they said, barbarian act, the local inhabitants said that God knows for how many times now, a brutal search of Kosovo Serb villages and houses was being carried out in the eve of major Orthodox holidays.

  Personally I find it hard to believe that Danish troops would do anything like that? Why would they further embitter the Serb population? In fact I find it hard to believe that KFOR would do anything but the dishes, (and maybe the floors).

  Draft letter for mr. Jensby ends)

  Could you please enlighten me and my fellow 'Milosevic Trial Discussion' participants either directly or by posting your kind answer to the following address:

  http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/issue_milosevic.htm

  Faithfully etc.

  (1) http://www.realitymacedonia.org.mk/web/news_page.asp?nid=2894
  
  Godfred Louis-Jensen
  Copenhagen
  D E N M A R K

• Saturday January 10, 2004 at 3:18 pm
  Pera Bora:

  My interview with Nico Steijnen is now avaliable. You can check it out at www.slobodan-milosevic.org
  
  Andy Wilcoxson
  Washington, United States

• Saturday January 10, 2004 at 3:18 pm
  Pera Bora:

  My interview with Nico Steijnen is now avaliable. You can check it out at www.slobodan-milosevic.org
  
  Andy Wilcoxson
  Washington, United States

• Saturday January 10, 2004 at 3:54 pm
  I have just seen the most disgusting thing. The croatian party HDZ is selling calendars for the year 2004 with a picture of Ante pavelic.

  http://www.index.hr/clanak.aspx?id=179986
  
  Dan B
  Canada

• Saturday January 10, 2004 at 4:10 pm
  How could possably someone(the honourable;) C.Ulfedt)that died 1664 (RIP))still operate in the 17th century? Im not too good at english or maybe you went out for a "lille en" instead of chasing Jensby? (AHA!). Corfitz as an advisor to king Karl x Gustav and a little trip over Store og lille baelt made it quit possible for me to now operate from the opposite side of the strait that divide Mr.Louise-Jensen and me.(like an Ernst-Hugo Järegård i "Riget")but we aren´t divided in that issue of yours. My only source of information on danish KFOR-troops in Kosovo are the same as yours not even a hint in our dayly "imperialpravda" remarkable in deed, and danish troops in Irak are actually involved in SHOOTING, that does´nt sound like resting to me Jensby better get out of there or Barsebäck(Sv. nuclerar plant very close to Köbenhavn) might seem like nothing compere to attacks from whoever fights the colonialists in Irak. Denmark has the oldest kingdom in the world(Blåtand) they dont HAVE to put ther country on the map in this horryfying way. http://historiska-personer.nu/min-s/pae542a07.html link
  
  Corfitz ;) Ulfeldt
  The other side

• Saturday January 10, 2004 at 4:17 pm
  I have managed to find the audio version of the alleged Conversation between Milosevic and Karadzic that Radio Free Europe talked about. You can listen to it at

  http://milosevictrial.tripod.com
  
  Dan B
  Canada

• Saturday January 10, 2004 at 8:08 pm
  
  Another source reporting the Matica incident:

  CLICK HERE
  
  Peter Taylor
  Herts/UK