 MILOSEVIC TRIAL DISCUSSION ARCHIVE |
| JURIST >> LEGAL NEWS - WORLD LAW >> Discussion >> Milosevic Trial Discussion Archive |
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Former Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic is on trial for war crimes in the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia at The Hague. This marks the first time a head of state has been personally prosecuted before an international criminal court.
Is Slobodan Milosevic getting a fair trial?
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- discussion archive
- Sunday January 11, 2004 at 12:55 am
Dan B.,Good job on your website. :)
Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States - Sunday January 11, 2004 at 9:26 am
Peter Taylor, - I do not really see that as "another source reporting the Matica incident" (January 10, 2004 at 8:08 pm).What I see is merely some reflection of the same 'information' initiated apparently by the 'regional Most TV in Zvecan' on Tuesday, January 6, 2004.
Adam Geibel's note may indeed contain some 'truth' of course. However I would like to know particulars of when and how this alledged 'incidence' occured, - including say which and how many houses were in fact "demolished", - and what this ensuing "chaos" involved...
I would have thought that you needed the same information before spreading rumours of the "brutality" of the Danish KFOR? Unfortunately it cannot be excluded that there is a basis for serious allegations - but I need evidence if I am going to succeed in even waking up the Danish Minister of the Defense, and/or those responsible.
I appreaciate your hints of course, - but rather than mere repetition of scant information on the matter, I'd prefer your comments to my suggested draft letter for mr. Jensby (it would be of value for me if I could convincingly tell him that not only myself, but sensible people abroad are concerned that our leadership may indeed have gone 'raving bonkers'...
You will note from my little conversation with 'mr. Ulfeldt', that I can hardly expect much help from what Andy Wilcoxson is calling my "compatriots" - nor even from those on "the other side" (who got lost in the 17th Century, and still not in the 16th!).
PS: Since you are such a wizard also on practical matters, you might tell me also in a few words how to mount such 'things' as your above "CLICK HERE"?
Thanking you in advance I remain,
yours sincerely
Godfred Louis-Jensen
Copenhagen
D E N M A R K - Sunday January 11, 2004 at 11:36 am
“We bombed the wrong side” states Nato CommanderI once asked a NATO commanding general why ethnic Albanian extremists were not unmasked for what they truly are - bloodthirsty, war-waging terrorists. He looked at me, paused, and replied, "How do you begin to go against the very group you supposedly came to help? We obviously did not know who we were dealing with. We bombed the wrong side."
The statement above is taken from comments made In ‘The Cleveland Plain Dealer’ on 9 January by a US citizen who served as a civilian subcontractor with US forces in Kosovo. To read all her remarkable comments CLICK HERE.
Blair’s lies to enable his warmongering are beginning to overtake him. Lord Hutton reports later this month on the Blair administration’s hounding to death of the weapons expert Dr Kelly: hounded because he warned of exaggerated claims made about Iraq’s weapons in not one but two Dodgy Dossiers. Now a Nato General is reported to have complained he was mislead over the attack upon Serbia!
You may count the number of Nato commanding Generals during the period of Tanya’s assignment in Kosovo on the fingers of a one armed man, not including the thumb. I wonder if Milosevic will be able to recruit this ‘betrayed’ officer for the defence?
Peter Taylor
Herts/UK - Sunday January 11, 2004 at 1:18 pm
Exuse me for a while, i must go and boil my bottom in purgative.
Godfred Louise -Jensen Copenhagen
D E N M A R K - Sunday January 11, 2004 at 2:26 pm
Godfred: Information on providing links to other web sitesThe basic syntax is:
<a href = "URL i.e. web address (Not to be displayed)"> Your reference to it (Which will be displayed in colour and underlined)</a>
Example: to provide a link to a web site explaining HTML given the URL use the following text:
<a href = "http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Guide/"> HTML Tutorial</a>
This creates:
If you visit this site see the section ‘Adding links to other pages’
There are at least two particular problems to note:
First: Text pasted into the Jurist ‘Your comments:’ box may contain quotation marks created by your local editor that the HTML interpreter does not recognise. In order to ensure success you must replace or place quotation marks surrounding the URL (i.e. web address) with those created by the editing facilities available within the Jurist ‘Your comments:’ box.
Second: In redirecting your computer to another website via the address box it is not necessary to include the preamble: ‘http://’ of the URL address BUT it is necessary always to include this preamble in the link code given above.
Warning: In common with many computer codes HTML (HyperText Markup Language) is unforgiving. You must follow the instructions exactly otherwise it won’t work or worse it won’t work as expected.
Post Scriptum: (-: No I’m not a Wizard just an Engineer :-)
Peter Taylor
Herts/UK - Sunday January 11, 2004 at 4:01 pm
Just a test:However since I'm on anyway, let me inform mr. Ulfeldt that no one in this 'trial' discussion would mistake the rather sloppy posting send Sunday January 11, 2004 at 1:18 pm for one of mine.
Godfred Louis-Jensen
Copenhagen
D E N M A R K - Sunday January 11, 2004 at 4:09 pm
Thanks again, Peter, - I'd maintain that you are a wizard, - that's what it takes to successfully inform an architect on 'providing links to other web sites'...
Godfred Louis-Jensen
Copenhagen
D E N M A R K - Sunday January 11, 2004 at 4:13 pm
Momir Nikolic, an army major was arrested in Eastern Bosnia by masked NATO occupiers and taken to The Hague. link Just trying out your HTML lesson Peter.
Walter Trkla
Kamloops BC
Canada - Wednesday January 14, 2004 at 5:29 pm
Apologies again for the downtime. This outage was caused by badly-formed HTML in the previous post. Please be careful when utilizing HTML when posting to the message board. Thank you!
JURIST Moderator
Pittsburgh, PA - Sunday January 11, 2004 at 4:29 pm
Godfred: Now about this alleged rumour-mongeringWhen I wrote “Another source reporting the Matica incident” I meant another news agency source. There is probably only one real local source because our media has no interest - by which I mean it’s not in their interests - in reporting atrocities on Kosovo’s Serbs.
We’re in the business here of discovering the truth. The truth is that at least two news agencies have reported that Danish troops demolished Serb houses in Matica, Kosovo. So let’s try and find out why this is so. Is it too much to hope that our/your media might send someone to investigate?
Wake up Godfred. Like you I am reluctant to believe that ‘our boys’ behave in abominable ways but we have to dispel the myth that only Serb forces do so and face the facts that forces of every nation do so. I don’t like the fact that three British soldiers gang raped a Danish girl in Cyprus then beat her to death with a shovel: but they did. I don’t like the fact that British soldiers shot into a crowd of civil rights marchers in Derry killing fourteen and injuring many more: but they did: And that they collaborated with paramilitary forces in the murder of Republicans. That they beat and sexually abused Iraqi prisoners of war returning the body of one beaten to death four months later. The body and photographs exist to show that this is so. British forces fire into Iraqi crowds protesting that they have not been paid for several months killing and injuring some of the protestors. I don’t like it but under Blair’s administration that is a fact. The British forces showered Serbs and Iraqi’s with cluster bombs and shells but weasel words from Trust-me Tony Bliar tell us that this is all legitimate. We have photographs of our KLA allies parading mockingly with severed heads. Carla del Ponte chooses to ignore these atrocities but that does not make them any less true.
Regarding your letter. Perhaps you might suggest that someone is sent to investigate the matter in Matica
BTW: How are your expurgated posterior parts?
Peter Taylor
Herts/UK - Wednesday January 14, 2004 at 5:50 pm
Walter: Concerning links to other sitesRemember that the syntax is:
<a href = "URL"> ‘Reference’</a>
where you provide the URL and your ‘Reference’ to it.
Syntactically you wrote:
<a href = "URL</a>
missing out "> ‘Reference’ after URL
If you still have a copy you will see that you wrote:
<a href = "http://groups.Yahoo.com/group/ProleterianNews/message/4801</a>
Whereas the following is the necessary syntax:
<a href = "http://groups.Yahoo.com/group/ProletarianNews/message/4801"> Arrest of Major Nikolic</a>
Thus creating the link: Arrest of Major Nikolic
HTML is very finicky and requires one to obey its rules exactly but don’t give up. Just make sure you double-check your code against the syntax given above before submitting it.
Post Scriptum
In case you are alarmed that I may be able to read all that you are writing on your computer - and before Godfred promotes me to the rank of ‘Grand Wizard’ - let me explain that by right-clicking on the Jurist Discussion page and selecting “View Source” I can read the formatting code used to create the Jurist Discussion page.
Peter Taylor
Herts/UK - Wednesday January 14, 2004 at 6:44 pm
Great start to the new year:
Slobo 1, Zafirovic 0, "Prosecution" -1.
Makes you wonder where Nice digs up professional cretins like Zafirovic who worked for B92, Voice of America, Vreme and such illustrious media organisations as are all set up, financed and sponsored by Soros and the US govt. Just like the ICTY!
If that's the best he can do in the last 16 days then it's a slam dunk that Slobo has no case to answer. Of course, May has to intervene and get Plavsic to come in and see if they can get some dirt on Slobo directly because obviously Nice and co are not doing a good job at all.
We shall see what we shall see. And Markovic is coming back no doubt to fix up some outstanding problems implicating the democratic West and its assistance in demolishing YU.
Can't wait for the latest.
David
Oztralia - Wednesday January 14, 2004 at 7:23 pm
And while I'm waiting, here's a gem about how our FREE AND DEMOCRATIC MEDIA influence people like May, Nice and the public. Note the mention of Milosevic and Saddam as mass murderers in the same context as Shipman!
Congratulations Daily Mirror, you have reached the pinnacle of responsible and credible journalism: 'Milosevic as Mass Murderer'
David
Oztralia - Wednesday January 14, 2004 at 8:35 pm
Than again they can end up like this person:) http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A6672-2004Jan10.html
Dakic Ana
Serbia - Wednesday January 14, 2004 at 8:52 pm
Thanks Peter hope that this works. Here are three reviews of Johnstone’s book. The one she likes the best is not here. The author that she mentions is by Professor Michael Mandel. I will try and find it and will post a link to it if this attempt works.Johnstone book Reviw Johnstone book Reviw
The new front runner Dean speaks out of both sides of his mouth. He lambastes Bush for unilateral action in Iraq but he was gung ho encouraging Clinton to go unilaterally into Bosnia. There is no whore like a political whore.
Dean on Bosnia
Walter Trkla
Kamloops BC
Canada - Wednesday January 14, 2004 at 8:57 pm
I will give this one more TRY Thanks Peter hope that this works. Here are three reviews of Johnstone’s book. The one she likes the best is not here. The author that she mentions is by Professor Michael Mandel. I will try and find it and will post a link to it if this attempt works. Johnstone book Review Johnstone book Review The new front runner Dean speaks out of both sides of his mouth. He lambastes Bush for unilateral action in Iraq but he was gung ho encouraging Clinton to go unilaterally into Bosnia. There is no whore like a political whore.Dean on Bosnia
Walter Trkla
Kamloops BC
Canada - Wednesday January 14, 2004 at 9:01 pm
Here are the web pages http://www.swans.com/library/art9/lproy04.htmlhttp://www.swans.com/library/art9/herman10.html
http://www.politics.guardian.co.uk/Print/0,3858,4732909,00.html
http://www.usatoday.com/usatonline/20040114/5836203s.htm)
walter Trkla
Kamloops BC
Canada - Thursday January 15, 2004 at 12:25 am
Re: "There is no whore like a political whore"
Oh yes there is! A journalistic whore.
Then again, a whore is a whore and most whores at least are honourable enough to provide the service that they are paid for. These other ones NEVER do that, at least as far as their nominal constituents (voters) are concerned.
And talking about whores, Wesley Clark is going to give the presidency a real shake. What with the Clintons and their backers, and the Albanian American League financing his campaign with KLA drug money (they're still BIG TIME lobbying US politicians for independence for Kosovo), they'll just BUY the presidency (and Kosovo) with advertising propaganda.
Enter the MEDIA whores, yet again! Pay them enough and they all speak from all 5 orifices, in whatever language you care to name.
David
Oztralia - Thursday January 15, 2004 at 1:48 am
And in light of all the NON evidence at the ICTY, what is the answer to the question here?....
"What if Slobo is NOT Guilty"
David
Oztralia - Thursday January 15, 2004 at 1:59 am
This guy is NEVER going to get a job in The Mirror or The Post... LOL...
"The Hague Conundrum - The best Laid Plans of Mice and Tribunals'
Way too much integrity for the "masters"!
David
Oztralia - Thursday January 15, 2004 at 5:01 am
Walter: Your syntax for the links was fine.The reason they failed was because the quotation marks you used, embracing the URL, were not recognised by the HTML interpreter.
You must enter these quotation marks after you have pasted your text into the 'Your comments' box.
I did warn that HTML is very finicky. Good look next time.
Peter Taylor
Herts/UK - Thursday January 15, 2004 at 7:14 am
“…Does anyone have any idea why so many Jewish guys in high places are supporting this Albanian "intifada" against the Serbs? I'd be most interested for a cogent explanation as I can't imagine why they'd have a problem with the Palestinian intifada if they can so readily support the Albanian mujahideen.
David,
You are one of the sharpest guys posting on this forum. I’m only one of your admirers and while trying to give my $0.02 on the subject, I’m not going to pretend that I bring any new knowledge to this forum - the most part of the following I’ve learned/confirmed from/with you guys.
Here is my best (concise) shot at your question:
Big Business [(a lots of) (“Jewish guys in high places” among others, that meet at Davos)] has no permanent friends and no permanent enemies; only permanent interests, period.
Big Business articulates its goals (like Plan for the New American Century) through the Council on Foreign Affairs (CFA) [(a lots of) (“Jewish guys in high places”)].
Big Business has (a lots of) tools to achieve its goals, as it works very closely with the President’s (Clinton or Bush, no difference) cabinet members [(a lots of) (“Jewish guys in high places”)], owns the US and (a lots of) international media (Radio/TV, newspapers, etc.) [(a lots of) (“Jewish guys in high places”)], and works very closely with PR Companies [(a lots of) (“Jewish guys in high places”)].
To achieve and maintain a total worldwide domination, Big Business needs CONSUMERS (among others, 1.2 billion Muslims that own (a lots of) oil, and 10 million Serbs (that happen to live in an important strategic location - energy corridor, and own nothing)), OIL (for US consumption), and CONTROL of oil exploration and distribution worldwide in order to control economies of its competitors now and in the future. Let’s not forget the old geo-political Cold War game, Russian natural resources, and historical ties between Russia and Serbia, and China and former Yugoslavia.
[(A lots of) (“Jewish guys in high places”)] within US Big Business community are understandably, loyal to their Jewish heritage and the State of Israel.
In the process of diverting worldwide attention from the Israel-Palestine crisis to something else, appeasing 1.2 billion consumers, countering an aggressive German [(a lots of) (“Jewish guys in high places”) has not forgotten holocaust, yet] attempt to dominate Balkans (unlawful recognition of Slovenia and Croatia), keeping containment of the Russian Bear (relocating US bases from Germany further East), pushing with the globalization (i.e. colonization) of the East Europe, planting the seed of instability within borders of its global competitor (creation of the Muslim states of Bosnia and Kosovo (hope not) within the European continent), they all met Milosevic’s refusal to join the New World Order crowd (remember Milosevic, refusing for 8 months to meet newly appointed US ambassador to Belgrade, Zimmerman) and considered Serbs an obstacle, and a perfect sacrificial lamb, at the same time.
To paraphrase one of the (“Jewish guys in high places”) by name Kissinger: “We should’ve not bombed Serbs, our ally from two World Wars. But since we started it, we must finish it, otherwise the rest of the world would not take us [my addition: Big Business and (a lots of) (“Jewish guys in high places”)] seriously any more!”
No permanent friends and no permanent enemies, only permanent interests, plain and simple.
Milosevic, evidently an intelligent man, did not understand the “rules” of the New World Order game, period. When he finally did, it was too late.
He acted like he was presiding over the country with at least, 1 billion citizens, with a veto power in the Security Council. He believed in the UN (what a joke) institution, international (what a joke) law, the old Russian (what a joke) friends and new Chinese (what a joke) friends.
[(A lots of) (“Jewish guys in high places”)] among others, portrayed him as it fitted their plans: first as an asset (Dayton), then as a factor of stability in the Balkans (while negotiating Dayton implementation) and finally as a dictator and alleged war criminal (during and after Kosovo bombardment).
And finally, to “paraphrase” something that Don Kissinger never said: “We should’ve not used Albanian mujahedins as our proxy forces against Serbs, our ally from two World Wars. But since we started it, we must finish it, otherwise the rest of the world (all future proxy forces that we plan to use worldwide) would not take us [Big Business and (a lots of) (“Jewish guys in high places”)] seriously any more! It's nothing personal; it's only business.”
I'm a proud American, in disagreement with US Government policies in the Balkans, and not an anti-Semite. I consider myself to be an objective observer of what’s been happening throughout Balkans during last 15 years. My fiends [(a lots of) (“Jewish and Muslim guys in not so high places”)] agree with me.
We all hope that one day all mujahedins from Balkans will have to face reality too, i.e. that [(a lots of) (“Jewish guys in high places”)] within US Big Business community have no permanent friends and no permanent enemies, only permanent interests.
I hope you do not find [(a lots of) (“brackets and parentheses at the wrong places”)]:-)
D(usom) S(arajlija)
Bosna&Hercegovina- Thursday January 15, 2004 at 8:44 am
Back to the Balkans? Calls for Renewed Intervention
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La- Thursday January 15, 2004 at 8:45 am
More about George "Robin Hood" Soros and his Band of Merry Men (and Women)... All of them humanitarians dedicated to mum's apple pie and the American way!
'Manufacturing Bullshit for Humanitarian Purposes'
This is the same George who funds the ICTY through his NGOs (they are funded by the US govt and they do "overtly" what the CIA used to do "covertly".
I note that today May gave Tapuskovic and the "prosecution" equal time of 15 mins for examination and re-examination of Markovic. Tapuskovic was cut exactly on 15 mins. Nice got 20 mins. Now that's an extra 5 mins of equality for you! May did not even bother to interrupt and tell Nice his time was up. He's obviously a Nice guy!
David
Oztralia- Thursday January 15, 2004 at 8:52 am
What Dean wrote to President Clinton:
The Honorable William J. Clinton
So, back to the Balkans?President of the United States
The White House
Washington, D.C. 20500
Dear Mr. President:
After long and careful thought, and after several years of watching the gross atrocities committed by the Bosnian Serbs, I have reluctantly concluded that the efforts of the United Nations and NATO in Bosnia are a complete failure.
I think your policy up to this date has been absolutely correct. We must give, and have given, this policy with our allies and with the United Nations every opportunity to work. It is evident, however, that the cost in human lives in allowing this policy to continue is too great. In addition, and perhaps more importantly for the United States, we are now in a position of ignoring, as many did in the 1940s, one of the worst crimes committed in history. If we ignore these behaviors, no matter where they occur, our moral fiber as a people becomes weakened. As the Catholic Church and others lost credibility during the Holocaust for not speaking out, so will the United States lose credibility and our people lose confidence in themselves as moral beings if the United States does not take action.
Since it is clearly no longer possible to take action in conjunction with NATO and the United Nations, I have reluctantly concluded that we must take unilateral action. While I completely agree with you that no ground troops should be committed for other than humanitarian purposes in Bosnia, I would ask that you take the following steps in Bosnia. First, lift the arms embargo as it applies to the Bosnian government. Second, enforce a full embargo of the sort that is now in effect in Iraq on the Bosnian Serbs and upon Yugoslavia. Third, break off diplomatic relations with Yugoslavia. Fourth, commit American air power to support the Bosnian government until the situation is stabilized and the civilian murders and atrocities by the Bosnian Serbs have been stopped.
I understand the risks of this policy and their implications for the NATO Alliance and the future success of the United Nations. Surely, however, as you watch and read about the huge amount of unwarranted human suffering, particularly of children, you would agree that our current course must now be changed.
I urge you to make these changes as soon as possible, and I look forward to supporting your policy fully to the best of my ability.
Sincerely,
Howard Dean, M.D.
Governor
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La- Thursday January 15, 2004 at 8:57 am
David Vreme survived on its own and was not set up by Soros or US government. Vreme has articles across politics. I read it often and it has written critical piece on Tribunal, West, Western Economics and so on. Same is true about NIN magazine.I dont think it is of taste to make jokes like football result about Milosevic trial. It is serious thing. Better to make serious argument about where you believe Zafirovic was wrong and Milosevic was right.
Didnt Daily Mirror make good article about KLA recently?
Arandjel Pasic
Jug- Thursday January 15, 2004 at 11:47 am
OPEN LETTERThe Danish Minister of the Defense, mr. Sven Aage Jensby
Date: 15.1.2004
Dear Sir,
RE.: Was in fact the village of Matica brutally searched by Danish KFOR troops?
It has been brought to my attention that on Tuesday January 6, 2004 the Tanjug News Agency was reporting an incident (maybe on the same day) alledgedly involving Danish KFOR troops on duty in the village of Matica, Municipality of Zvekan in the Serbian Province of Kosovo.
On January 8 'Reality Macedonia' (1) was relaying the below message from Tanjug, originating it seems from the regional Most TV and I quote:
[quotation starts]
14:09 ZVECAN , Jan 6 (Tanjug) - The way in which members of the Danish Kfor have searched the Kosovo Serb village of Matica near Zvecan, demolishing houses and leaving chaos wherever they went, has embittered the villagers, the regional Most TV in Zvecan said on Tuesday.
Strongly denouncing this, as they said, barbarian act, the local inhabitants said that God knows for how many times now, a brutal search of Kosovo Serb villages and houses was being carried out in the eve of major Orthodox holidays.
[quotation ends]
Now, - why would Danish troops act to further embitter the remaining Serb population in the Province of Kosovo? I have not yet been able to find a reference to this alledged incidence in any Danish media, nor have I had (much in the way of) confirmation from abroad either.
Yet, while I find it hard to believe that our NATO-soldiers would do anything like what is described by Most TV and Yanjug, it cannot be excluded either. I would greatly appreaciate if you would kindly investigate the matter and let me know: Specifically I am eager to know if Danish troops in Kosovo are deliberately 'demolishing' the houses of the local inhabitants, and what the purpose of the ensuing 'chaos' would be, if any at all?
Faithfully yours
Godfred Louis-Jensen
PS: I send this as an 'Open Letter' asking you to kindly enlighten me on the matter either directly or by posting your kind answer to any of the following:
JURIST 'Milosevic Trial Discussion': http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/issue_milosevic.htm
INFORMATIONs web-debat 'ORDET ER FRIT: www.information.dk
(1) http://www.realitymacedonia.org.mk/web/news_page.asp?nid=2894
c.c. Forsvarskommandoen, E-mail: fko@mil.dk
Godfred Louis-Jensen
Copenhagen
D E N M A R K- Thursday January 15, 2004 at 11:57 am
The thugs in northern Mitrovica are paramilitary Serbs paid by the Serbian Radical Party to destabilize the situation in Kosova. These punks are not even from Mitrovica.
Arben Qosja
Chicago
USA- Thursday January 15, 2004 at 1:18 pm
Arben Qosja , destabilize what? please what you have been smoking or have you gotten some good stuff through the Kosovo "corridor" with the protection of NATO "Corps". That poor people in Mitrovica all they are doing is trying to survive annihilation , you're simply pathetic , and if you don't have something better to come with ,ship off (with all due respect)
M P
Panama- Thursday January 15, 2004 at 1:35 pm
ArbenWhat in the little baby Jesus name you are talking about?
Dakic Ana
Serbia- Thursday January 15, 2004 at 1:38 pm
As for what is civilized, at least Serbs respect graves of the others that can not be said for Albanians. I Kosovska Mitrovica, not a single Albanian monument is damaged in SErbian part of the town. On the other hand in the southern part, Serbian graveyard is demolished; remains of our loved lay around and head stones are used by Albanians as a marble material for their houses. If we consider that civilization of the human kind began when we started to respect our dead where does it leave Albanians?
Dakic Ana
Serbia- Thursday January 15, 2004 at 3:01 pm
Well, my fellow colleagues, I have not been here for over a year but I decided to see for myself what is going on. Getting away from the subject of Milosevic's trial temporarily, I was just wondering if anyone has read the book "Serbia's Secret War" by Phlilip J. Cohen and if so, what do they think about it? Thanks.
Ryan Mircic
St.Albans
UK- Thursday January 15, 2004 at 3:12 pm
Ryan,
Dentists, or at least this Philip J. Cohen, don't make good historians and even less mediocre journalists.
It is hard to live in exile!
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La- Thursday January 15, 2004 at 3:30 pm
Gogol, One can be an expert in more than one field. Many Jews from wartime Serbia were interviewed by Philip J. Cohen and his research staff and told of the horrendous treatment they received from the Serbs. A few of these Jews made it out of Serbia alive and went to Albania. There they were protected by the Albanian people and lived to write about it. My grandfather was one such Jew.
Arben Qosja
Chicago
USA- Thursday January 15, 2004 at 3:51 pm
Arben, To bad that Albanians in Kosovo did not continue with such nobel practices as told in:“Driven from Kosovo! Interview with Chedomir Prelinchevich, Chief Archivist of Kosovo and leader of the Jewish Community in Pristina, capital of Kosovo province (Serbia). Israel: So you are the President of the Jewish Community in Pristina [the capital of Kosovo]? Prelinchevich: It was a small community. We have all left. Israel: Why did you leave? Prelinchevich: Because the political settlement became a military resolution. Pressure was on the citizens. They didn't ask which nationality you are, you were pressed to leave the apartments and the city. Even if I had a paper which said I am the President of the Jewish Community of Pristina in English and signed by the President of the Federation of Jewish Community from Belgrade, Mr. Singer, the officers from KFOR [NATO], refused to recognize that paper and I was kept imprisoned in my home for one week. I gave it to another KFOR officer later and he said "I have other business to attend to." The powers from Albania came inside the country. Their main purpose was to get all the non-Albanian population out. With help from Eliz Viza from Israel and from the Chairman of the Jewish Community from Skopia I was rescued, taken by Taxi together with my wife and my mother to Macedonia and from Macedonia I came to Belgrade. The whole rescue operation of my family was given to Israeli TV. Altogether there were 40 people of Jewish origin in Kosovo. They are of mixed marriage, Jewish-Albanian, Jewish-Turkish and Jewish-Serbian. All are prepared to go to Israel. To go back to Kosovo for us is too late. Even though we got a guarantee from Thaci which is the head of the UCK [KLA], that our homes would not be touched we have information that all our apartments and our houses were completely robbed and demolished..."
Dakic Ana
Serbia- Thursday January 15, 2004 at 4:15 pm
Arben, I'm sorry if your grandfather experienced hardship. It's good he told you about his history, but did he ever tell you about things like this: http://www.suc.org/culture/history/wwii/unknown_hero.html?Suc_Session=affcf0770ce20d3902d9fb59b633f8b8
Anna P
California- Thursday January 15, 2004 at 4:16 pm
Sunday Mirror (UK) - December 7, 2003Posing as members of the Real IRA, we were also offered three shoulder-held missile launchers, an anti-aircraft gun, and enough machine guns, hand grenades and landmines to equip a small army.
We made our deal in Kosovo, a breeding ground for fanatics with al-Qaeda links. Our contact was the deputy commander of the Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA) Niam Behljulji, known as Hulji. The group were trained by Bin Laden's men.
Astonishingly, we met him under the noses of the British Army and UN forces - who remain as peacekeepers following Kosovo's bloody war with Serbia.
Hulji, is said to supply terrorists across Europe and has been accused of massacring Serbian women and children during the war. He even posed grinning for a photograph, holding the severed head of one his victims.
The Sunday Mirror and Daily Mirror newspapers are owned by Trinity Mirror plc along with at least 270 more of Britain’s Newspapers and publications: so much for our free and independent press.
The evidence could not be clearer. Blair’s KLA chums in Kosovo, Thaci and Co, provide Britain’s ‘enemies’ with weapons with which to kill and maim British citizens. In contrast Blair attacks the Serbs who have posed no threat to Britain and indeed supported us in two world wars.
Listen again to the words of this master of nonsense-speak: "It is important that we co-operate in the fight against terrorism, wherever it is. Terrorism is terrorism, wherever it occurs, whoever are its victims."
Contrast these words with his conduct in supporting, along with al-Qaeda, the KLA reign of terror in Kosovo.
Phony Tony gets his nickname, in part, from this record of picking and choosing which terrorists he will denounce and which he will support. In this he is the idolised puppet of US administrations. Under Clinton he became the more than willing champion warmonger surrogate for Albright’s wilting Willy. Under Bush he is the eager accomplice in crime to steal Iraq’s oil using, once again, weapons of mass deception on the British people.
Blair first care is not for the British people. He supports terrorists in Kosovo who in turn supply Britain’s terrorist enemies with the wherewithal to destroy life and limb in the UK. He put the British army in mortal danger in Iraq - without adequate protection - unless he knew that his Dodgy Dossiers on Iraq’s weapons of mass destruction were false: In which case he committed British forces to an unnecessary war.
In spite of the evidence a recent poll claims that two out of three British people still believe that rays of sunshine emanate from Blair’s posterior parts to encircle his head in a halo. I can only suppose that this onetime Ugly Rumours wannabe pop idol still retains the power to mesmerise like a snake his many bloody victims home and abroad.
If ever there was a man who should be on trial in The Hague this is he.
Peter Taylor
Herts/UK- Thursday January 15, 2004 at 4:16 pm
Ana, I see that you have retained that Serbian "quality" that Seslej so often speaks of with great pride. Old Vojoslav has publicly stated that LYING is a Serb virtue and to lie creatively is to be close to God. I see that you, also, are a virtuous Serb!
Arben Qosja
Chicago
USA- Thursday January 15, 2004 at 4:25 pm
It is well known that Serbia was onE of Sadam's closest allies. Serbia was supplying Iraq with weapons up until Dec. of 2002. They were (what is left of them both) a mutual admiration society.
Arben Qosja
Chicago
USA- Thursday January 15, 2004 at 4:55 pm
The 200 or so famous saved Jews of war time ( WW2) Albania have little to do with the occupied Albanians and much to do with the Italian army refusing to obey the order to round them up. And I am also sure among those Italians serving in Mussolini's army there a few good dentists.
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La- Thursday January 15, 2004 at 4:59 pm
21st Waffen-Gebirgs-Division der SS SkanderbegFor those who wish to peddle some minor, possibly revisionist, history here a la Philip J Cohen about Serbia and in particular Serbia’s province of Kosovo: may I suggest they first bone up on some well authenticated material:
And this
Peter Taylor
Herts/UK- Thursday January 15, 2004 at 5:09 pm
Arben, I am Serbian and proud to be! My grandfather fought two world wars against Germans. 98 members of my fathers’ family died in two world wars. My godfather was expelled from Kosovo - Podujevo in 1941 when Balists killed his 4 brothers. In his house right, that his family owned since 16 th century now lives Albanian family, that moved in illegally after WWII. My first door neighbor in Belgrade is Albanian - and I love her as my sister. Give me an example of such condition right now in Pristina. You Albanians do not even respect peoples graves! So with all do respect bite me.
Dakic Ana
Serbia- Thursday January 15, 2004 at 5:11 pm
Ps Arben When you loose arguments you start with name calling.
Dakic Ana
Serbia- Thursday January 15, 2004 at 5:14 pm
Driven from Kosovo - link http://emperors-clothes.com/interviews/ceda.htm
Dakic Ana
Serbia- Thursday January 15, 2004 at 5:15 pm
Arben, What you just said to me doesn't even make sense. If that is your response to what I posted to you, then my next question is what planet do you live on?
Anna P
California- Thursday January 15, 2004 at 5:20 pm
MODERATOR! This Arben's style smacks of the guy that caused this site to close down temporarily not too long ago. I think he's the same nut who was the reason that the discussion site at beograd.com deteriorated to the point it had to be closed down. His only purpose is to close down sites of civilized discussion about the Balkans by hate mongering and thus creating chaos. You should ban him, although it won't be long before he shows up again under a new alias.
Anna P
California- Thursday January 15, 2004 at 5:22 pm
P.S. Moderator, I know this "Arben's" quotes well. He repeats himself all the time. I think I'm correct in my assessment and that this is the actually the person I suggested it is.
Anna P
California- Thursday January 15, 2004 at 5:25 pm
http://www.starlightsite.co.uk/keston/kns/2002/020702SE.htmwww.unmikonline.org/press/2003/mon/Oct/lmm301003.pdf
Albanians destroyed Serb cemetery (Blic) The Albanians completely destroyed the Orthodox cemetery in the Istok village of Dragoljevac. Of over 350 graves, only one is untouched,” Petko Rajcic, who headed the delegation of the locals in the tour of their homeland, told Blic. He added that Serbs from Dragoljevac visited the village cemetery for the first time since they took refuge, thanks to the understanding of the civil administrator for the municipality of Istok and the escort of KFOR Spanish soldiers. “We found horrible sights. All monuments, including stone crosses several-centuries old, were destroyed; the graves desecrated or dug out. Century-old trees are cut off, the fence taken away. Although I know every inch of the cemetery, I couldn’t find the graves of my parents and light a candle,” said Rajcic.
Dakic Ana
Proud Serbia- Thursday January 15, 2004 at 5:45 pm
"Serbia's Secret War - Propaganda and the Deceit of History is an enlightening and meticulous book. It shows us that the truth, the absolute truth, that is, can be as easily manipulated as a Rubik's cube."That's for sure!
As for Cohen, he no doubt follows the fine tradition of Rudder Finn, Liebermann, Lantos, Albright, Clark and co. Yet another of the so called prominent Jews who have been slagging on the Serbs on humanitarian grounds.
Their humanitarianism is clearly evident in their resistance to Palestinian hegemony and terror in the Middle East directed against the hapless and innocent, peace loving Sharon dove types.
The sooner they finish the concentration camp around the Palestinians the sooner peace will prevail in the Middle East and the sooner we can all get back to BUSINESS and profits.
But first, there's the problem of Serbian terror in the Balkans, inspired and spread by the likes of Hitler-like Milosevic types who forced the Slovenes, Croats, Muslims and Albanians (Catholic and Muslim) into a war and subjected them to genocide all over Yugoslavia, EXCEPT in Serbia!
Now, how clever was Milosevic to cover his tracks by only committing genocide in neighbouring republics and NOT in his own? It's a master stroke, no doubt, that he left Serbia as the most multicultural of republics just so he can put paid to stories like Cohen's. And he also managed to implicate the West in his scheme by conning them into supplying all the others with guns and weapons and a democratic ethos which was in such short supply in those same republics/areas over the last few hundred years.
How Milosevic managed to convert the Serbs from fighting fascism on the side of the Allies for so long into fascists themselves is a case for the medical books. He must be no less than a magician or a witch, and as such he has to be burned at the stake.
No doubt that is the role of the Inquisition at the Hague. They have a marvellous track record and such a fine Inquistorial traditon as witnessed in Spain, France, Latin America, you name it!
Civilisation turning into syphillisation, yet again!
Nice job, Mr Cohen! Galileo must be turning in his grave given that the world is going back to being flat. Your 30 pieces of silver should last you all of two weeks at the most, so get back to it and find another "cause" now, maybe Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia or Nth Korea?
David
Oztralia- Thursday January 15, 2004 at 5:47 pm
http://arhiva.inet.co.yu/inet/d/20010902/v3.htmlSerbian Graves in Kosovo Pictures
Dakic Ana
Proud Serbia- Thursday January 15, 2004 at 6:49 pm
Anna, Gogol and David, Is it not true that Seslej has publicly stated that Serbs pride themselves on lying creatively? The Serbs also seem to blame everyone but themselves for their woes. The reason the civilized world hates the Serbs is NOT because of Ruder Finn or other PR firms, but because they have brought it on themselves. How is it that all their neighbors want nothing to do with them. The Slovenes, Croats, Bosnians, Bulgarians, Romanians, Macedoneans, Albanians, Montenegrens, Hungarian Vojvodanians and even the people of Sanjak think of the Serbs as pariahs. A coincidence, I think not! The Serbs have historically commited heinous crimes against their neighbors in wartime and then whined pathetically when defeated. They then conveniently played the role of the victim. Poor us, why does everyone hate us? What did we ever do to deserve this? They are fooling no one. They must stop their collective denial of their crimes and acknowledge their guilt then ask God for forgivness.
Arben Qosja
Chicago
USA- Thursday January 15, 2004 at 7:01 pm
There speaks an expert, I suppose, on world opinion!
Anna P
California- Thursday January 15, 2004 at 7:03 pm
I shall repent if you wouldƒº. I do agree with that point but are you as open to look into crimes of your own as well. Example 600 000 Serbs killed in Jasenovac and that is a quote from Simon Wiesenthal Center. I am yet to see Croatian, Muslims or you Albanians repenting. As for Seselj I don¡¦t see him any different form Hasim Tachi and Agim Ceku. They are same to me.
Dakic Ana
Serbia- Thursday January 15, 2004 at 7:13 pm
Ana Dakic, "Arben" makes it sound as though the Croats and Bosnians, for example, love each other, but they hate the Serbs. What is glossed over in this hateful and revealing (about Arben) comment is that the Serbs, even though attacked by outsiders and even though they were under Ottoman rule for 500 years triumph after adversity -- because they are tenacious. Their tenaciousness comes from knowing they are honorable and they believe (naively perhaps nowadays) that the truth "will out." This causes resentment in some other nations, but to say that Serbs are hated is a tremendous lie. They run to Serbia for protection, like many Kosovo Albanians did during the bombing. And I'd like "Arben" to ask their immediate neighbors -- the Greeks -- how much they hate the Serbs. I could go on and on, but what would be the point in even acknowledging any further such dribble? In any case, two could play this game. If any one of us wants to begin naming countries where Albanians are hated, we could be here all day.
Anna P
California- Thursday January 15, 2004 at 7:15 pm
As for propaganda Serbs do not have heroin money to finance PR politicians and other anti-war profiteers as Albanian heroin, prostitution and white slavery do. As for God don’t you worry he keeps score and we Serbs shall be looking upon you from haven.
Dakic Ana
Serbia- Thursday January 15, 2004 at 7:27 pm
As for me, I have nothing to repent for and I hope for the return of Ivan the Terrible a.s.a.p.
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La- Thursday January 15, 2004 at 7:28 pm
Just imagine if Milosevic had a camp like Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. I can just see Soros, CNN, BBC and the company, Natasha Kondica and the rest of the world crying, threatening and yelling. Just imagine:)
Dakic Ana
Serbia- Thursday January 15, 2004 at 7:29 pm
Arben,you are unfortunately generalising in your post. I myself come from a mixed Croatian-Serbian background and we all get along just fine. Unfortunately, Serbs are not the sole victimers, since we all know the the Balkans are never black or white but have different shades of grey. How is it that all of these different ethnic groups (again, generalisation) hate the Serbs, when they are all trading with them and living, working and communicating with them in their every day lives? Indeed if they were so despised and if they were such "pariahs", everyone would be taking up arms against them in Serbia. I have not seen any evidence of that, apart from the Albanians in southern Serbia and of course Macedonia and now the "Montenegrin Albanian Army" in Montenegro... Anna, well I can tell you, that about a year after the Kosovo conflict, people (English, not Serbian) started ringing in to Talk Sport and other radio talk stations to complain about how Albanians are in control of 70% of Soho's prostitution rackets (quoted in The Economist, The Independent, The Guardian and numerous other newspapers) and how they simply scrounge off the social benefits. One lady mentioned how she took in 5 Albanian youngsters (refugees), fed them, clothed them and protected them and found in the end that they were stealing from her. What a way to repay an act of kindness, huh? As for Philip Cohen's book, there are many contradictions and historical inaccuracies and revisionism in general, since he was a propagandist for Tudjman's nationalist HDZ regime back in the '90's. Tomorrow I will list numerous inaccuracies in his book but I'm off to bed now, as it is quite late. G'night everyone :-)
Ryan Mircic
St.Albans
UK- Thursday January 15, 2004 at 7:32 pm
Just one last thing, Anna. I bought Michael Lees' book as you suggested quite some time ago. He certainly puts alot of Cohen's "expert" opinions in their place, doesn't he? He was fighting with the Chetniks in southern Serbia in '43, when Cohen wasn't even born. He should know better if they were Nazi collaborators or not.
Ryan Mircic
St.Albans
UK- Thursday January 15, 2004 at 7:34 pm
Apologies for not having paragraphs. Could someone tell me what I need to do to separate my text? Thanks.
Ryan Mircic
St.Albans
UK- Thursday January 15, 2004 at 7:37 pm
Ryan,I agree Balkans are not black and white, there two many sad stories to tell and Serbian idiots can be nasty. But Serbia is the ONLY republic that kept its national census profile, Serbia received refugees from Bosnia and Kosovo and not asking if they are Serbs, Albanian or Muslims. Around 70000 Albanians took refuge in Serbia from Kosovo during bombing of 1999. That is why I get little “edgy” when I hear from people like Arben whom instead to help nurse wounds of all continue with its own agenda. And I am sorry but I can be stubborn Serb. Iz Inata.
Dakic Ana
Serbia- Thursday January 15, 2004 at 7:52 pm
"One lady mentioned how she took in 5 Albanian youngsters (refugees), fed them, clothed them and protected them and found in the end that they were stealing from her. What a way to repay an act of kindness, huh?" Yes, Ryan, much like how the Albanians were allowed to make a better life for themselves in Kosovo only to steal the entire region from their benefactors. Given half a chance those Albanian refugees in England would have taken that woman's house, too.
Anna P
California- Thursday January 15, 2004 at 8:21 pm
“We are not paid to be moral”Comment by James Harrf, Director Rudder Finn, Global PR
Is that it? Is it really as simple as that or is their some other reason?
There is a veritable torrent of anti-Serb vitriol being spewed out by senior figures in the Jewish community such as political figures, authors, journalists, dentists … This is so palpable in its hysteria that it is alarming. When this war of words first started it evoked this warning from Dr Yohanan Ramati, director of the Jerusalem Institute for Western Defense:
“THIS ORGANIZED ANTI-SERB AND PRO-MUSLIM PROPAGANDA SHOULD CAUSE ANYONE BELIEVING IN DEMOCRACY AND FREE SPEECH SERIOUS CONCERN. It recalls Hitler's propaganda against Allies in World War II. Facts are twisted and, when convenient, disregarded. The selectivity in reporting and comment is far too blatant to be accidental. The Western governments do not control their media sufficiently to be responsible for it. So who is? Who is bankrolling and masterminding the vast effort to destroy a people the United States, England and France have no reason to hate in order to establish a second Muslim state in a Balkan province where Muslims are MINORITY?”
Later he had this to say:
“Kosovo has been virtually cleansed of Christians with Western help.
In the long run, the lying propaganda in the Western press and media can destroy the West itself. But the struggle of its critics must be for the soul of the West, not against the West. for the US and other Western countries of today, driven by the greed of the small cliques controlling their power structure, are proving once again the truth of the ancient Greek proverb; "Those whom the Gods wish to destroy they first make mad."
Surely Ramati’s observations cannot be dismissed as anti-Semitism?
In the meantime many will wonder … Many senior figures in the Jewish community - backed seemingly by a silent majority - supporting al-Qaeda backed Islamist terror against Kosovo’s minorities including Jews!
This is incomprehensible. Is there not an alternative plausible explanation to that offered by James Harrf?
Peter Taylor
Herts/UK- Thursday January 15, 2004 at 8:22 pm
Dakic Ana, Have you ever thought that it might be you that has the "agenda"? I'm all for nursing wounds. God knows how many wounds were inflicted by the Serbs. However, we forgive you. It's just that after so many bad experiences with Serbs, we do not wish to live with you EVER AGAIN, see you again and not have anything to do with people like you. Sorry but, that's the way most Albanians feel. We can never trust you again. Now it is time to forgive yourselves!
Arben Qosja
Chicago
USA- Thursday January 15, 2004 at 8:31 pm
To form paragraphs:Place the following three characters at the beinning of the sentence you wish to start the new paragraph:
<P>
The < character is usually typed by an upper case comma key.
The > character is usually typed by an upper case full stop key.
Peter Taylor
Herts/UK- Thursday January 15, 2004 at 9:11 pm
There is a book called SLEEPING WITH THE DEVIL by Robert Baer( former CIA ) It gives you all the answers why we went to war in YUGOSLAVIA ,IRAQ ,etc. It looks like US fell right in the Saudi Wahhabi trap. In Kosovo the Albanians had a parallel government during the 80 and 90. Now in Iraq the fundamentalist have a parallel government too. Like in Kosovo in Iraq people must pay some type of tax to the clerics. It looks that the US did the dirty work for this Islamists.,and now the US is in trouble with no plan to exit. Read the book is available at any library.
Vasile Ian
NJ- Thursday January 15, 2004 at 10:19 pm
Felow participants on this discussion Forum,Please do not engage in the discussion with this fellow “Arben”. It has been my experience on some other Forums that Albanian participants thrive on completely misrepresenting and inverting the historical facts thereby inducing others to react to that insanity.
It is completely counterproductive for this Forum participants to react to him. Just IGNORE him. Eventually he will get bored and leave the forum.
D. Jovanovic, physicist
USA - Thursday January 15, 2004 at 8:44 am