MILOSEVIC TRIAL DISCUSSION ARCHIVE

Is Slobodan Milosevic getting a fair trial?
————————————————————————————
NOTICE: Comments posted to this discussion board are solely the responsibility of individual posters, and not of JURIST, its owner, operators, host or staff. JURIST reserves the right to block or remove posts that are in violation of law or that advocate illegal acts, that are obscene, disruptive, defamatory, threatening, harassing or abusive, that are in breach of intellectual property rights, rights of publicity or rights of privacy, that are advertisements or solicitations, or that are not related to the topic being discussed.
————————————————————————————

• discussion archive

• Friday January 16, 2004 at 1:16 am
  A dose of truth from a high profile columnist, Ann Coulter.com Snippet... Yugoslavia posed absolutely no threat to the United States -- not imminent, not latent, not burgeoning, not now, not then, not ever. (Unless you count all the U.S. highway deaths caused by Yugos.) The president of Yugoslavia, Slobodan Milosevic, never tried to assassinate a U.S. president. He never shook his fist at the Great Satan. He didn't shelter and fund Muslim terrorists -- though the people we were fighting for did. In humanitarian terms, Milosevic didn't hold a candle to Saddam Hussein. Milosevic killed a few thousand Albanians in a ground war. Hussein killed well over a million Iranians, Kurds, Kuwaitis and Shias, among others. Milosevic had no rape rooms, no torture rooms, no Odai or Qusai. He didn't even use a wood chipper to dispose of his enemies, the piker.
  
  J. P
  USA.Wis

• Friday January 16, 2004 at 2:40 am
  

  It's not hard to invert the truth if you can't read books the right way up. In fact, it would help if one could even read at all!

  From the entire Balkan region, it seems only the Serbs and the Greeks failed to join the fascist axis powers in WW1 and WW2. If the rest hate them, it's most likely because the Serbs came out on top both times, not to mention that in the first place they had the guts to stand up to the fascists even though they were surrounded by them.

  On the other hand, whether they are hated or not is debatable. One thing is for sure and that is that the new masters do NOT like anyone who won't kiss their asses.

  That's the price the Serbs paid for the last 600 years and are still paying. And that is why on the other hand their immediate neighbours SEEM to be so popular with their masters.

  The rest have all managed to get themselves mono-ethnic states, the Serbs still have and cling to the idea of multi-ethnic nationhood. Who's kidding whom here?

  In the demonisation of the Serbs, much has been made of their "BACKWARD" Orthodox and Slav traditions. The same demonisation will be conveniently resurrected when the NWO masters move on Russia which is the ultimate prize, YU is just a stepping stone.

  The NWO will employ Goebbels-like propaganda against the Orthodox Slavs of Russia when it pulls the same trick as it did on YU, equate them with the Orthodox Serbs and justify enslaving and eliminating them in much the same way Hitler set about eliminating the Jews, for reasons of Lebensraum and BUSINESS. The Slavs will turn into 21st Century "Jews". After all, history does repeat itself, it's just that the actors are new! The plot remains the same.

  The only question is how to neutralise the Russian nukes? Enter Star Wars and "expeditions" to Mars and outer space so they can sneak in the Star Wars project along the way.

  The objective is a nuclear proof umbrella so the NWO masters can reign with impunity. That is THE big obstacle, the rest is just foreplay and an attempt to minimise national and international dissent and opposition to the ultimate goal.

  If you won't kiss ass, then you may as well shake in your boots, that's the philosophy.

  People like Milosevic seem to refuse to do either. Now we can't have that can we? It's just not Kosher the way he plays the game.
  
  David
  Oztralia

• Friday January 16, 2004 at 6:19 am
  You see Arben we can not trust you either but we were civil and tolerant enough to live with you. What are you saying that Serbs should leave Chicago because YOU do not trust Serbs? Let me tell you why those you mentioned previously don’t like Serbs: Because we see what kind of carp you are and we are not afraid to say that you are crap. As for living together you are expressing typical Albanian non-tolerance. Maybe you should go to fact finding mission and compare a Belgrade where 50 000 Albanians live and work with the rest in the multinational and multicultural environment and Pristina where KFOR have to watch day and night one building where Serbs and other nationality still live. So you have NO RIGHT to talk about trust. We stopped trusting Albanians LOONG time ago. Examples: when they beat up my Patriarch in seventies just because he was a Serb. But even you Albanians should give some effort to respect a law. And may be if you did respect ANY kind of law this war would not happened. Even now in Kosovo you need governor to tell you what to do - you replaced and opportunity to live in Yugoslavia as it was, opportunity to work, build and respect multiethnic Kosovo. And what you have now is nothing more that colony. Kosovo and Bosnia are new colonies of the world. You shall not have any saying in running it, you shall be slaves of the west and money they promised you shall stop coming. Colony that is you.

  P.s This war is not over yet (and we have a very long memory) - I am glad my people are safe even as refugees, but war is not over yet and next time you shall not have NATO to hide behind its back. Isn’t it strange how brave Albanians are when they are hiding behind somebody strong? Can you fight Serbs in the open battle or you are just brave enough to take it on graves, children and elderly? Serbs on the other hand do not give a rats for might. As the old Serbian song goes made in 1941 when Srrbs got up on March 27 and rejected pact with Hitler - “my sister there is no rest now, Serbia is getting ready for WAR WITH HITLER”
  
  Dakic Ana
  Serbia

• Friday January 16, 2004 at 6:21 am
  Arben actually your view is not as crazy as some Albanians but what happened yesterday is history. Let us talk about today.

  What is your opinion of the position of Serbs and minorities in Kosovo? Now I shall see if you use reason or if you are just nationalist. When you say we cannot live together does it mean you want to cleanse Kosovo of non Albanians? Do you think we should now use Serbian police force to find Albanians who have been living in Belgrade for hundreds years to send them to Kosovo or Albania because we should not live together? Serbs in Kosovo were not tolerant. Albanians in Kosovo are not tolerant but there is nowhere else for you to show tolerance. In Belgrade there is tolerance for minorites.

  I cant say much about Albanians coming here from NATO bombing because we never saw them in Belgrade. But there were many many Albanians who went to Montenegro. The Montenergians were very tolerant in this period. Do Albanians in Kosovo tolerate Montenegrians or let them live in peace today?

  Comment on Sadam and Serbia is stupid one. It is kind of PR comment made to influence West to hate Serbia. You ask for troubles when you say this. Argument you can only lose when you start to talk about Middle East because then we go to Bin Laden / KLA.

  Arben please say where you got Seselj quote from about lying. For record I deny nothing. But after conflict all sides must take responsibility not just one side.

  Dakic Ana, Anna P dont let people influence your opinion to make it harder. If they say stupid things just tell them facts in return. Its easy to say this but not so easy to do.
  
  Arandjel Pasic
  Jug

• Friday January 16, 2004 at 6:23 am
  D. Jovanovic, physicist I agree I shall not visit this subject again
  
  Dakic Ana
  Proud Serbia

• Friday January 16, 2004 at 6:24 am
  Arandjel I agree:)
  
  Dakic Ana
  Serbia

• Friday January 16, 2004 at 7:12 am
  I thought I would mention some of the contradictions in Philip Cohen's book "Serbia's Secret War"

  The first obvious point is concerning his belief that Ustashas and Chetniks committed atrocities on a similar scale to one another during the Second World War in the Independent State of Croatia. However, this is not supported by Dr. Cohen's own sources concerning civilian deaths in the NDH (p. 112) where he cites Vladimir Zerjavic's estimates. These are as follows: 217,000 Serbs, 62,000 Croats and 37,000 Muslims. Proportionate to their respective populations, the Serbs suffered significantly greater, although not all Serbian deaths were a result of the Ustashas, the majority of them were. In his chapter concerning the recent Balkan war from 1991-1995, Dr. Cohen appears to be completely one-sided, blaming the Serbs for everything, while he himself attacks Serbs for generalising towards the entire Croatian population as all being Ustashas. I certainly am in total agreement with him that generalisation towards Croats is unacceptable but likewise it should apply for all ethnic groups, not just specific ones. What Dr. Cohen also fails to mention in his book is that the Ustashas were actually in control of the Croatian parliament, hence they were a legitimate (to a certain extent) government, whereas the Chetniks were a guerilla formation, made up initially of former Royal Yugoslav army officers. Also, to my knowledge, the Chetniks did not have concentration camps in the territory under their control, unlike the Ustashas, who had 26 camps. The concentration camps that were set-up in Serbia were set-up and run largely by the Nazis, with some help from local Serbian fascists, whereas the Ustashas themselves set-up and administered those in the NDH (on p.64 Cohen himself admits that "the executioners of most of Serbia's Jews were German army personnel or regular police"). Dr. Cohen also generalises to all Chetniks as being anti-Semites and Nazi collaborators, whereas both Michael Lees' and Kirk Ford's books (both in Cohen's bibliography) say otherwise, with Major Richard Felman being the most well-known example

  Concerning the Jasenovac camp, Dr. Cohen quite rightly refers to it as a concentration camp. However, with regards to the Serb run camps in northern Bosnia in 1992 (Omarska, Trnopolje, etc) Dr. Cohen, refers to them as "death" camps, even though officially in history there were only 4 camps designated as being "death" camps, which were Treblinka, Sobibor, Chelmno and Belzec in Nazi-occupied Poland during the Second World War. The number of deaths in the worst camp in BiH in 1992, which was officially Omarska, were cited at around 600 civilian deaths in Western media sources, out of about 6,000 people who passed through.

  Concerning Partisan representation in WW2, Dr. Cohen on p. 95 cites the figure of 61% Croats and 28% Serbs overall from 1941-1945. However, in an interview given to a Croatian journalist called Marinko Bobanovic of the political magazine Vjesnik on April 27th, 1998, he revised this figure and claimed that 70% of the Partisans were Croats and only 11% Serbs! This appears to me to be quite unscholarly and unprofessional. From relatively impartial Western sources, most historians agree that the Serbs made up the majority of the Partisan fighting force, although Croats and Muslims were well represented too.

  Dr. Cohen also claims that the first act of anti-Axis resistance began with the Partisans in Croatia in June 1941, just after Hitler had invaded the Soviet Union. This is in fact a historical inaccuracy, because in May 1941 General Draza Mihailovic set-up and began his first acts of anti-Nazi sabotage at Ravna Gora in west-central Serbia, and even Time magazine in its May 1941 issue praised Mihailovic for being the first anti-Nazi resistance group in eastern Europe. Cohen also does not seem certain of the number of Jews that perished in the NDH; on p. 91 he cites the figure at 20,000 and on p. 111 he lowers it by almost half to 13,000.

  Finally, as you are probably getting abit tired of all of these points, I'll finish by pointing out how Cohen supported Tudjman and his HDZ regime, regardless of the fact that in 1993 Tudjman himself said the following provocative and racist remark: "Thank God my wife is not a Jew or a Serb".
  
  Ryan Mircic
  St.Albans
  UK

• Friday January 16, 2004 at 7:30 am
  Arben qojsa . baby you are pissing me off , unemployment rate in your brain must be 50% and the other 49.9%have been beheaded by the previous 50% activity in which albanians are very skilled , it's from idiotic brains like yours that a new type of fuel will be available pretty soon under the name of "assohol" .
  
  M P
  Panama

• Friday January 16, 2004 at 7:55 am
  But Ryan, Tudjman was still invited to the opening of the Holocaust museum in USA by the President Clinton that has visited poor Srebrenica on numerous occasions but not once did he (and I think his wife) found a time to see Auschwitz. So people that have no idea what Genocide or Holocaust is are preaching about it.
  
  Dakic Ana
  Serbia

• Friday January 16, 2004 at 7:55 am
  Arben Qosja,

  although we are probably well advised to ignore you, I'd like to ask if your little comment on the "thugs in northern Mitrovica" (January 15, 2004 at 11:57 am) was in any way meant to relate to my 'Open Letter' to the Danish Minister of the Defence concerning an alledgedly 'brutal' search by our Kfor troops in the village of Matica near Zvekan (January 15, 2004 at 11:47 am)?

  If you have any specific knowledge of this particular incident (on 6 January, 2004?) or on the background for the alleged behaviour of the Danish soldiers I'd be grateful for a further comment from you...
  
  Godfred Louis-Jensen
  Copenhagen
  D E N M A R K

• Friday January 16, 2004 at 8:06 am
  By Mary Sibierski in Warsaw

  Several hundred gypsy representatives from across Europe have gathered at the former Auschwitz-Birkenau death camp complex to condemn ethnic cleansing and commemorate the mass murder of gypsies by the Nazis during World War Two. About 600 members of gypsy, or Roma, communities, as well as Polish state officials and foreign diplomats, walked in silence to a memorial amid the foundations of Birkenau's Block 28 where, 55 years ago to the day, over 3,000 gypsy prisoners - mainly women and children - were gassed to death. Between 1941 and 1944, some 23,000 European Roma were transported to the Auschwitz death camp by the Nazis. Only 2,000 survived. Ethnic cleansing During the ceremony, Roman Kwiatkowski, head of Poland's Roma association, called for an end to modern-day ethnic cleansing in the Balkans. He also appealed for the protection of displaced Kosovar gypsies. Mr Kwiatkowski says that thousands of Roma living in Kosovo have fled their homes, fearing attacks by ethnic Albanians, who accuse Kosovar gypsies of co-operating with Serbs in war crimes. "We cannot remain indifferent to intolerance, discrimination and ethnic cleansing against the Roma in Kosovo," he said. Of the roughly one million gypsies living in Europe prior to World War Two, historians estimate that the Nazis and their allies exterminated over half.

  Today, there are upwards of eight million Roma living across Europe.
  
  Dakic Ana
  Serbia

• Friday January 16, 2004 at 8:41 am
  

  They lied about the Maine! They lied about the Gulf of Tonkin! They lied about Nicaragua! They lied about Guatemala! They lied about El Salvador! They lied about Bosnia! They lied about Kosovo! They lied about Iraq!

  'Is Slobo Getting a Fair Trial?'

  You can pick dozens of other places they lied about too, e.g. Laos, Cambodia, Chile, Iran, Afghanistan, etc, etc.

  And they bombed each and every one of them, either directly or by proxy. All in the name of what? Democracy and humanitarianism?

  You don't say!
  
  David
  Oztralia

• Friday January 16, 2004 at 8:48 am
  

  New Year's progress score:

  Slobo 2, Zafirovic 0, Zecevic 0, Nice -2.

  A munitions expert who works and fights and makes bombs for the other side!

  Nice one, Mr Nice! LOL ROFLMAO

  Unbelievable! Makes you wonder which corn flakes packet Nice got his law degree from. I want one too.
  
  David
  Oztralia

• Friday January 16, 2004 at 9:36 am
  I know, Ana, it is disgusting to think that a man like Tudjman was invited to the Holocaust museum in the USA. I'm just surprised that Croatian Jews and other Jews (such as Philip Cohen who is from Maryland) supported Tudjman, knowing full well that he was an anti-Semite and a war criminal.

  For example, Igor Primoratz from Hebrew University in Jerusalem refered to a "genocide" taking place in Croatia, when even the ICTY is not accusing Milosevic of genocide in Croatia. Then others such as Zlatan Gelb and Antun Abramovic supported Tudjman 100%.

  And then Cohen also attacks the Serbian-Jewish Friendship Society which was set up by the late Klara Mandic as working against Jewish interests. Some people just have the habit of supporting those who are working AGAINST their own people, with the obvious example being Cohen as a HDZ supporter.
  
  Ryan Mircic
  St.Albans
  UK

• Friday January 16, 2004 at 11:19 am
  To all forum participants:

  Please be advised that D.Jovanovic, "physicist", aka Drasko, has been barred by the NEW York Times Forum for rabid Serb nationalist and anti-semitic comments. I am wondering how long it will take for this feable Chetnik to be kicked of this esteemed forum. His outragious pro-Milosevic position reveals how sick this individual really is.
  
  Arben Qosja
  Chicago
  USA

• Friday January 16, 2004 at 11:55 am
  Grrr
  
  Rabid Serb
  

• Friday January 16, 2004 at 12:41 pm
  

  The best defence for Mr. Milosevic in the case of Kosovo would be to compare the situation in it during so-called Serbian rule and NATO imposed rule. With this evidence, he would be a clear winner. He will not be allowed to present this evidence. The ICTY has intentionally imposed protective time limits what periods it will investigate. Therefore, I am sure that all the evidence on the current situation in Kosovo will be simply disallowed and thrown out. How about a questions: How many schools before the bombing and now have mixed nationalities of their students in Kosovo? Mr. Nice pleas tell us” How many Serbs are expelled from liberated and free Pristina compared to how many Albanians are expelled from the “Nazi” Belgrade after the bombing?

  What is the problem? The problem is that the Serbs did not rule Kosovo under so-called Serbian rule. Civilized Albanians that were able to cooperate with the Serbs ruled it at the time. There were lots of them. Now, they are expelled from Kosovo, cruelly executed or silenced. The thugs supported by NATO rule Kosovo these days. Kosovo’s economy is destroyed beyond repair by bombing and mismanagement (read: inexplicable, excessive looting by the new owners i.e. KLA who did not bother about future of their people.) Just look at the Kosovo power generation industrial complex. One does not know who is sealing more: international managers form Germany or Albanian ones. The power generation complex is not simply working and millions of the Euros were put into it Only industries that is flourishing is drug trade and women slave trade and prostitution.

  I even do not want to go into the national intolerance and destruction of the property of non-Albanians and their historical heritage. Disrespect of human rights and so on and so on. Just look how many Albanian political parties have non-Albanian members.

  Statement that some new invented nationalities of Vojvodina and Montenegro hate Serbs is Bull. Slovenian’s are fighting to get as many new businesses in Serbia as they can., but they will never regain as much rights in Serbia as they had under Yugoslavia. They are now complaining to the Europe that they had better access to the Adriatic see under Yugoslavia then now. So-called people of Sandjak are Serbs of Orthodox and Moslem religion. They are not mistreated in any way. Their political leaders were always and are now included in the Serbian government. When it comes to Croatians, so-called Bosnians and Albanians they were awarded for being instrumental in destruction of Yugoslavia with the right to pillage property of their Serbian neighbours, destroy their heritage and ethnically cleans them. Have they got their freedom in the process? No! Now they are free to go to Iraq, Afghanistan and god knows where else to give their lives for NATO strategic interests. (Read: Pillaging in the name of the multinational corporations.) When it comes to Romanians, Hungarians and Bulgarians, they did it for the right to join NATO and EU at the cost of destruction of their own economy and again right to die in defence of the NATO strategic interests. I do not see here any hatred it more smells like money, greed and stupidity. What goes around comes around.

  It is high noon for the civilized Albanians to wake up and rebel against this kind of their NATO supported rulers, because eventually Kosovo Albanians are ones who will pay the highest price. In order to be successful they would have to restart cooperation with their neighbours, Serbs, Greeks and Macedonians.

  
  
  Pera Bora
  Ottawa, Canada

• Friday January 16, 2004 at 12:51 pm
  Mr. D.Jovanovic, "physicist" is very well know to this forum. Calling him a Cetnik is laughable. Telling that he was thrown from the New York Times forum is a simple liy.
  
  Pera Bora
  Ottawa, Canada

• Friday January 16, 2004 at 1:08 pm
  Slavenka Drakuljic who married to a Serb has authored several books on the war in Croatia and Bosnia and in one of the books she advised her daughter to choose between her Serbian and Croatian heritage. With this kind of advice I hope that the daughter rejected the MOTHER.

  Similarly, Tudjman’s comment "Thank God my wife is not a Jew or a Serb" is a comment from a sick man. His daughter was married to a Serb and since he became a rabid nationalist the marriage ended in divorce. What sick people?? Tudjman attempted to change the name of the well known Zagreb soccer team “Dinamo” to a more nationalistic name “Kroaciija” the BBB “Bad Boys in Blue” Dinamo fan club refused. While still alive Tudjman had “Dinamo banners confiscated at the entrance, and police have harassed and arrested fans for singing songs that "offend the office of the president of the republic." "Change Dejan's name, not Dinamo's," runs one such chant. Dejan is Tudjman's daughter's son, who was born in Serbia and whose father is Serbian.”

  Like Tudjman and Drakuljic, Arben Qosja is a sick man. When Qosja starts to believe that the true nationality of all of us is mankind he will be cured but don’t hold your breath Anna and Dr. Jovanovic. Dr. Jovanovic your comments have always been proper and respectful on this forum if you and many others who post here are ever in Kamloops I would be honored to have you at my home.

  Peter I will give it one more try in posting a link. This is a response to the dentist Cohen.

  Response to Philip Cohen
  
  Walter Trkla
  Kamloops BC
  Canada

• Friday January 16, 2004 at 1:12 pm
  Eureka I found it
  
  Walter Trkla
  Kamloops BC
  Canada

• Friday January 16, 2004 at 2:03 pm
  Ryan: you have asked about why Croatian Jews were anti-Serb? My personal opinion is that Croatian Jews were scared for their own safety in modern Croatia. Croats have realized that Jews hold a lot of political clout in the United States, and since the United States is the world superpower, it is simply impractical and unwise to turn on the Jews. Instead, they affect a kind of insincere 'philosemitism.' Bosnian Muslims do the same thing, like whining about Sarajevo synagogue or the Sarajevo Hagadah (a Jewish religious document from medieval Spain).

  So, Croatian Jews, rather than fighting for the truth and for the interests of Serbs who lived through genocide, they sided with the Croatians. In this way, both Croatian and Bosnian Jews were useful political tools for Tudjman and Izetbegovic (Goldstein and Jakob Finci come to mind) for their 'Serbs are Nazis' propaganda. Generally, the Jewish presence in Kosovo, Bosnia, and Croatia are sufficiently small that if they tow the party line, they will generally be ignored and can continue to live as they did in the past.

  Stand up for the truth and support the Serbs, however, and the Jews would all be thrown out in a trice. Of course, the lying Croatian and Bosnian governments would find some sick, demented, way of pinning the blame yet again on the Serbs.
  
  P M
  USA

• Friday January 16, 2004 at 2:03 pm
  

  Jack Kelley and Natasa Kandic caught lying. USA Today caught selling propaganda.

  http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A6672-2004Jan10.html

  
  
  Pera Bora
  Ottawa
  Canada

• Friday January 16, 2004 at 2:11 pm
  

  Kelly, Natasa and USA Today

  http://wireservice.wired.com/wired/story.asp?section=Breaking&storyId=814230&tw=wn_wire_story

  
  
  Pera Bora
  Ottawa
  Canada

• Friday January 16, 2004 at 2:25 pm
  

  President Bush wants to testify as Expert on Weapons of Mass Destruction in the coming new circus of Iraq's President Sadam Hussein
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Shangri-La

• Friday January 16, 2004 at 2:38 pm
  

  Anti-Serbian Commentaries . . .
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Shangri-La

• Friday January 16, 2004 at 2:52 pm
  P M, thanks for your opinions. Have a look at the following web link: http://www.balkan-archive.org.yu/kosta/licnosti/cohen.5.html You'll notice that the journalist who wrote the article was one Paul Jackson from the Calgary Sun who I managed to get into contact with. He supposedly hates Serbs so much, but wanted to marry a Serbian woman from Montenegro. Quite ironic.

  I agree with you that some Croatian Jews probably did side with Tudjman out of fear but then you also had Jews who were rabidly anti-Serb yet their lives were not at risk (exp. Igor Primoratz who received his Ph.D at Belgrade University in the late '80's and moved to Jerusalem). Then of course those like Philip Cohen. He had absolutely no need to fear Serbs yet he still supported Tudjman. Strange... And then there are Serbian Jews who were 100% against Tudjman and his HDZ government, such as Smilja Avramov.

  Thanks for posting that article, Walter, it was a great critique of Cohen's revisionist book, although I read Todorovic's letter to the late Professor David Riesman before.
  
  Ryan Mircic
  St.Albans
  UK

• Friday January 16, 2004 at 2:59 pm
  www.balkan-archive.org/yu/kosta/licnosti/cohen.5.html

  Also: http://free.freespeech.org/ex-yupress/vjesnik/vjesnik27.html

  Paul Jackson also mentioned in his e-mail to me how he received the "Croatian Medal of Honour" from Tudjman.
  
  Ryan Mircic
  St.Albans
  UK

• Friday January 16, 2004 at 4:04 pm
  

  (…Partisan representation in WW2, Dr. Cohen on p. 95 cites the figure of 61% Croats and 28% Serbs overall from 1941-1945…)

  There are a lots of manipulations with numbers, one of the most frequent is counting most or all of partisans which fought on the territory of what is now Croatia as Croats, which is total aberration. It's enough to look where major battles between Ustasha's, Italians and Germans against partisans took place and where partisans located command and logistical centres. It's practically all in the Serb-Krajina region.

  In the period from 1941-1943, Serbs formed huge majority of the "Croatian" (and "Bosnian" as well), partisans. To tell the truth, facing total annihilation from the Ustasha's, Serbs in many places didn't heave any other option. Croats and Muslims on the other hand, were not in danger, so not so many joined the resistance. That started to change in the 1943, after the capitulation of Italy, when lots of Croats from the coastal regions joined the partisans. Being 3 years under Italian occupation, they felt betrayed by Ustashas Number of Croats continued to increase in the later stages of the war, when everyone sensed which side will win.

  To realistically compere contribution of the different ethnic groups to the resistance, aside from numbers other factors should be taken into the consideration as well. For example, risks which resistance fighters were facing in the beginning and first few years of the struggle were much greater then later. They began totally unprepared, without any help from anywhere, against modern armies, had to use totally inadequate improvised weapons or take them from the enemy. Logically, in those circumstances, partisans suffered huge loses, together with the rest of the local Serb population, which was hunted down and killed as animals, for the duration of the war. Croat population led comparatively comfortable life's.

  
  
  Rade Plecas
  Amsterdam
  The Netherlands

• Friday January 16, 2004 at 4:28 pm
  http://www.earthstation1.com/pgs/wwii/dos-Hitler_-_Intolerance.wav.html
  
  just listen!
  What´s make Arben \"twanging the wire\"

• Friday January 16, 2004 at 4:35 pm
  Pera Bora 'invented' nationalities of Vojvodina and Montenegro. Please explain what means.

  I never heard anybody claim Vojvodian nationality. This is the first time. As for Montenegrians they have more right to have nationality than many in Balkans. You might just say that all of them are Serbs. You might say it but you should respect right of those to call them what they want. I really dont care what people call themselfs as long as they dont force other ones to be somebody else.

  Arben Quosa please reply to my comment. If you are serious you have nothing to lose to argue with me. Let me tell you if you cant even talk normally with me then there really isnt much hope for Kosovo.

  
  
  Arandjel Pasic
  Jug

• Friday January 16, 2004 at 4:36 pm
  Unfortunately, most Serbs are still in denial over the inhumane war crimes its gov't and therefore, its people are guilty of. I say that the Serb people are also guilty because they supported Milosevic, Kradzic, Mladic and other fanatics in the leadership of rump Yugoslavia. However, to make matters worse, they project these crimes on the very victims that they, the Serbs, brutalized. Namely the Croats, Bosnians and the Albanians. Then the Serbs wonder why the world treats them as pariahs.

  I would have hoped for a more balanced approach from the so-called educated Serbs participating on this forum, but I guess that was too much to ask. Just look at the sick attitude they have toward the Jews.

  In the meantime the civilized people of the world will continue to turn their backs on the Serbs. Perhaps, after drinking out of toilet bowls and eating roadkill for a few more years may finally cause the Serbs to repent.
  
  Arben Qosja
  Chicago
  USA

• Friday January 16, 2004 at 4:45 pm
  Arandjel,

  I stand corrected, it was Nebojsa Cosic that said that to Lie creatively is a Serb virtue. The source for this is in one of his writings.
  
  Arben Qosja
  Chicago
  USA

• Friday January 16, 2004 at 5:03 pm
  Arben, if anyone here cannot discuss in a civilised manner, it is you. People on the forum are not arguing with one another, as you can probably gather. They are only arguing with you because you are deliberately being provocative and one-sided. Serbs are not the only ones who deny their own war crimes; I know of plenty of Croats, Muslims and Albanians who do the same. Therefore, try and be abit more open-minded in the future.

  As for your negative generalisations towards all Serbs, they leave much to be desired. Its simply an indication of your intolerant attitude towards others. Finally, from what I have seen, all countries in the Balkans and the world as a whole are cooperating with the Serbian government in terms of trade and diplomatic relations. It appears as if only Rugova's government, along with extremists such as Ceku and Thaci refuse to cooperate with the Serbs.

  Its interesting to note how you accuse the Serbs for everything that has happened in the Balkans, yet do not comment on the fact that Serbs are unable to return to their homes in Kosovo and those that are already there, need 24 hour KFOR protection. Not only the Serbs, but also Romanies and other ethnic minorities. The war has stopped in Kosovo for 4 1/2 years, yet Serbs are still in the same predicament they were in September 1999.

  Then take a look at Bosnia, where the war was much worse, and notice the fact that SFOR, when Muslims and Croats started returning to the Republic of Srpska in 1998, never had to guard them 24 hours a day or put barbed wire around their homes.
  
  Ryan Mircic
  St.Albans
  UK

• Friday January 16, 2004 at 5:20 pm
  A while back a NATO official claimed "We bombed the wrong side". Least it be forgotten, bombing either side would have been equally criminal, under international law, the UN charter, and the NATO charter.
  
  Ian Davis
  Waterloo
  Canada

• Friday January 16, 2004 at 5:58 pm
  You know the old saying you can take a man out of Kosovo but not Kosovo out of the man. I am not sure how long our friend Arben Qosja has lived in Chicago but it is obvious to me that he has brought with him the Medieval attributes that shaped his psyche. Take the ‘bloody shirt down’ Arben this is the 21st century and maybe, just maybe the Albanians might become part of Europe rather than the purveyors of drugs, prostitution, and human misery.

  You know the old saying you can take a man out of Kosovo but not Kosovo out of the man. I am not sure how long our friend Arben Qosja has lived in Chicago but it is obvious to me that he has brought with him the Medieval attributes that shaped his psyche. Take the ‘bloody shirt down’ Arben this is the 21st century and maybe, just maybe the Albanians might become part of Europe rather than the purveyors of drugs, prostitution, and human misery. Arban comment about the Serbs and their attitude to the Jews as “just a sick attitude” but hides his shame that his grandfather was of Jewish ancestry. Be proud Arban the Semites are a great people.
  
  Walter Trkla
  Kamloops BC
  Canada

• Friday January 16, 2004 at 6:27 pm
  Granted, all sides commited war crimes, but the Serbs had the JNA at their disposal and that made all the difference. These other groups, especially the Albanians, had no Army and few weapons to defend themselves with until the Serbs forced them to form the KLA. All the previous years they were at a big disatvantage, without weapons or organization. From the Serbs point of view this was quite "fair" but when the Albanians started to defend themselves,all of a sudden the were considered "terrorists." When the tide turned against the Serbs they sarted squeeling like stuck pigs and haven't stopped yet!
  
  Arben Qosja
  Chicago
  USA

• Friday January 16, 2004 at 6:38 pm
  This poor human been named Arban? needs badly some professional help , his inferiority complex forbids him to see , understand or comprehend , certain facts inherent to the reality we all are facing in regard of this manipulated Balkan tragedy , he has his own 17th century virtual world that he shares with all the criminal minds of his own breed , shure that they are of the human race and have to be treated accordingly with only one condition , to be corraled in their land this means Albania , to be educated in the 21th century standards , teach them not to breed like rats ie. 10 alive children per couple and another 6 misscarriages in between , that you don't have to take each others life for some offense in the 18th century , that to be brave isn't to be taken a picture with a human head in one hand and a butcher knife in the other , this to mention few attitudes that human evolution has left behind with some sad exeptions like underevolved quasi tribal ethnias like the one you belong to .
  
  M P
  Panama

• Friday January 16, 2004 at 7:03 pm
  M P

  You write and express yourself as the type of person you described above. Are you not embarressed by the way you write the English language. I've only been in the USA a short time and I express myself far better than you. Even my cousins that have never been outside of Kosova except for the brief time they were forced to leave in 1999, write much better English than you. Do yourself a favor and go get some schooling so you don't sound like such an idiot!

  BTW, I have a cousin in Kosova that has an English language school.I can get you a discount on some lessons if you are interested.
  
  Arben Qosja
  Chicago
  USA

• Friday January 16, 2004 at 7:27 pm
  Good for you , at least you're learning something , as far as English lessons it will be kind of difficult for as far as my poor education and knowledge Panama is not in the same continent as Kosovo , please with all due respect "maestro" correct me if i am wrong
  
  M P
  Panama

• Friday January 16, 2004 at 7:38 pm
  BTW , there are 3 kind of albanians : intelligent (Mother Theresa from Calcuta) lucky (Bekim Fehmiu) stupid illetered and criminals (the rest) Q.- which one you belong to?
  
  M P
  Panama

• Friday January 16, 2004 at 7:50 pm
  I am not sure how many languages MP Panama speaks but I am sure it is three. To criticize someone who writes in the language that is not their mother tongue is an indication that the critic Arben Qosja is out of ides or that he does not have any ideas at all, The more you post Arben the more we see you as a mental midget. My apologies to all the midgets since I only use this term as a euphemism to tell Arben that he needs to join the human race.
  
  Walter Trkla
  Kamloops BC
  Canada

• Friday January 16, 2004 at 7:55 pm
  Serbs "whining"? EXCUSE ME -- the only ones I saw whining, wailing, and blubbering all over CNN were Kosovar Albanians. To quote Milosevic: "They must be very good actors." Indeed.
  
  M Donne
  Canada

• Friday January 16, 2004 at 8:08 pm
  Walter , Bekim Fehmiu was an actor , could've gotten far , his sole success was a movie made in YUGOSLAVIA , and one attempt in U.S which was a complete fiasco . BTW. I can make myself understood very well in 5 (five) languages
  
  M P
  Panama

• Friday January 16, 2004 at 8:23 pm
  Mother Theresa was born in Skopje, Macedonia. Even though her parents were Catholic Albanians, wouldn't that make her Macedonian? Just wondering.
  
  M Donne
  Canada

• Friday January 16, 2004 at 8:23 pm
  I will give my own opinion as to why I think that Kosovo should never have been a republic within Yugoslavia (as the Albanians demanded quite a few times; the demonstrations of 1981 spring to mind), on equal par to Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia, Serbia, Montenegro and Macedonia.

  First of all, I believe that Milosevic centralising Yugoslavia by revoking Vojvodina's and Kosovo's autonomy was wrong. While he did this in 1989, he supported the re-drawing of Croatia's and BiH's borders into the Republic of Serbian Krajina and the Republic of Srpska. This was obviously a double-standard.

  I believe that Tito decentralised Serbia in 1974, not because he was anti-Serb, but because he attempted to realistically satisfy the demands of the large Hungarian minority in Vojvodina and the Albanian majority in Kosovo. However, these two autonomous provinces should not have become republics, nor should they in the future for a simple reason: Albanians already have an independent country i.e. Albania and the Hungarians have Hungary. It would be unfair for an ethnic group to have two homelands.

  As we see in the rest of Europe, nowhere does an ethnic group have two republics. For example, the French have France, the Germans have Germany, the Poles have Poland, etc. Members of the Serbian Academy of Arts and Sciences (SANU) constantly asked the question: Why didn't Tito give the Serbs autonomy in the Krajina region of Croatia? Same reason; because Serbs already had a republic i.e. their homeland of Serbia within Yugoslavia.

  However, I do think that the Albanians took advantage of and abused Tito's liberalism after he died in 1980 in demanding Kosovo become a republic. When Tito was alive, he had fairly extensive popular support. As soon as he died, he seemed to have conveniently become everyone's worst nightmare...
  
  Ryan Mircic
  St.Albans
  UK

• Friday January 16, 2004 at 8:27 pm
  M Donne you remind me of an interview by Christiana Amanpour with a Kosovo Albanian woman on the border of Kosovo and Albania who had a small boy with her . The woman was crying and distraught. Amanpour asked her about her Husband. The Woman promptly stated that her husband was killed by the Serbs. Her son was asked the same question to which he responded that his father was with the UCK (KLA) Out of the mouth of babes as the saying goes. This interview was live and it was never replayed again.
  
  walter trkla
  kamloops BC
  Canada

• Friday January 16, 2004 at 8:40 pm
  M Donne , you are absolutely right , but still it's only fair to say , besides been a Macedonian national she was ethnically Albanian and a fantastic human soul that won world respect .
  
  M P
  Panama

• Friday January 16, 2004 at 8:54 pm
  

  Ryan,

  The cement that kept it all together was Yugoslavia. Tito consolidated Yugoslav power at the expense of any form of threatening nationalism, Croatian being the most notorious one, power in Tito's Yugoslavia did not emanate from her center, her federal government, but from the Republics towards the center in its consensus reaching system.

  It was the US Congress in 1989 by calling in the US debt to Federal Yugoslavia (22$b) while reassuring her republics of financial backing and loans, that pushed Yugoslavia into the abyss. Yugoslavia stood alone. Was it a crime to try to save her?
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Shangri-La

• Friday January 16, 2004 at 9:06 pm
  Gogol, while I do admit that the WB and IMF "restructuring" policies certainly did help push Yugoslavia's economy into the abyss, it was not the only reason. By that time Yugoslavia was already well on its way to disintegration. Tito, at the end of the day, was the one who borrowed enormous sums of money from the U.S. during the '60's and 70's. He never really stopped to think how he would pay it back in the future, unfortunately.

  Its just a shame that neither Milosevic, nor Tudjman, nor anyone else were willing to genuinely save Yugoslavia. They were all looking after their own asses.
  
  Ryan Mircic
  St.Albans
  UK

• Friday January 16, 2004 at 9:15 pm
  

  Ryan Mircic

  A small correction! Milosevic didn't CENTRALISE anything and he didn't revoke anybody's autonomy. He did however manage to get a law passed (by the SFRY, not by Serbia alone) to correct the veto rights the provinvial Kosovo legislature had over Serbian legislature. Check it out yourself.

  MP Panama

  Who tells you you Mother Theresa was the saint the Vatican claims she is? There's a stack of money missing from the Calcutta branch of her sect. When the poor were dying she told them to turn to god. When she was dying she turned to the American elite medical centres. Apart from that, word is that she condemned thousands to misery and degradation by her fanatical religious doctrines regarding contraception to start with. Are you sure you're statement is not the ultimate consumer's view innocently derived from Vatican advertising?

  Arben Qosja

  Up until your arrival, people here who agreed or disagreed managed to conduct themselves civilly. Read the post archives and figure out for yourself where on the civilisation continuum your posts are placed. It may take you a few generations but I'm sure you can (sooner or later) elevate your position by a millimitre or two.

  Anyone have any comments on Markovic or Zecevic? Both fell flat as far as I managed to see, although I did miss part of Markovic.

  Here's one on Carla: 'Carla's Dry Dream'
  
  David
  Oztralia

• Friday January 16, 2004 at 9:42 pm
  

  Fool's Crusade the new in America book by Diana Johnstone is an interesting account of American policy towards the non-aligned world and its efffect in Yugoslavia.

  I have to say, it was not president Clinton who exploited humanitarian moral issues to justify military interventions, it is indeed an old, as old as the World practice, but George Bush the Elder facilitated everything when prior to his departure ordered a US landing in Somalia, the reason? To stop famine it was said, more clearly to create a precedent military intervention in Yugoslavia. Was Morton Abramowitz also behind it? Likely.
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Shangri-La

• Friday January 16, 2004 at 9:43 pm
  
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Shangri-La

• Friday January 16, 2004 at 9:44 pm
  Sorry
  
  G C
  SL

• Friday January 16, 2004 at 10:08 pm
  

  Actually I was mistaken in the date. It was November 5, 1990 when the US Congress passed Public-Law 101-513 which became known as the death warrant for Yugoslavia and even the CIA warned against its terrible effects predicting a civil war.

  NATO in the Balkans published by IAC of New York details the story, tells it with precision.
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Shangri-La

• Friday January 16, 2004 at 10:19 pm
  Arben. This forum is not for serbs only. There are people from other countries participating here. This forum has some very interesting discussions ,but once in while some smart ccokies jump in and try to divert it. There were few of them in the past .If you hate the serbs so much,why don't you tell us why. What did they do to you. I am very curious to hear your story. Maybe is better if you go back to Kosovo.At this point is etnically clean and you don't have to put up with the serbs anymore. Don't forget one thing,your dream came through and you live in America now.You never know who baked your bread,who built the house you live in ,the car you drive, the food you eat,and all the other things around you. I bet that there was at least a serb or polak ormexican or turk or any other nationality. I deal with a lot of immigrants from all over the world and I see that the majority came here to start a new life and forget the past.
  
  Vasile Ianos
  NJ

• Friday January 16, 2004 at 10:21 pm
  

  One should not be angry at any Albanian who fails to understand the obvious and obstinately sticks to the powerful's version of history. Albanians have served the Turks well in their domination of the Balakans for 500 years, they served Imperial Britain well despite her botched job in creating the modern state of Albania, they served the British well in ruling Egypt, they served well the fascists powers during WW 2, there should be no surprise then, if they put themselves at the service of the new masters. After all what are the choices for a non Slavic nation outside of a non existing union?
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Shangri-La

• Friday January 16, 2004 at 10:28 pm
  David , I refuse to even imagine Agnes Gonxa been capable of her knowingly descend that low . and I am not a Catholic , as far as The Vatican I have more respect for Hussong's cantina in Ensenada B.C.Mexico .
  
  M P
  Panama

• Saturday January 17, 2004 at 1:16 am
  

  MP Panama

  That's ok, I wasn't jumping on you. When the Vatican decides to canonise someone I have to ask why. Why Pius XII? Why Stepinac? Why Mother Theresa?

  As it is, they do the promotion and history says they are not to be trusted. That's all. LOL. No reflection on you or your motives at all. Just a caution (in light of her promoters) to check the facts before buying the story. And the facts seem to be mixed as far as I can tell. I'll try and find you a link on that. Cheers.
  
  David
  Oztralia

• Saturday January 17, 2004 at 6:29 am
  Arben Qosja,

  I was asking you a question (January 16, 2004 at 7:55 am).

  Do you have any knowledge of an alledgedly 'brutal search' by Danish Kfor troops in the village of Matica near Zvekan (on 6 January, 2004?).

  (Even a simple 'No' from you would be rather more interesting for me than your 'opinions' on the language of MP etc.)
  
  Godfred Louis-Jensen
  Copenhagen
  D E N M A R K

• Saturday January 17, 2004 at 6:50 am
  Thanks for the correction, David. However, it doesn't change the fact that all leaders were willing participants in the destruction of Yugoslavia.
  
  Ryan Mircic
  St.Albans
  UK

• Saturday January 17, 2004 at 7:20 am
  Intercepts
  
  Domovina Net and RFE/RL-Radio Slobodna Evropa have started to web-publish intercepted telephone calls between (former) Yugoslav officials from the 1991-1995 period.
  
  Thus far about 100 calls from the May-Ocotber 1991 period are on line. The mp3-files are obviously in the local language but there are also transcripts and translations of same in English. Most of the transcripts are multi-page .tif files, the translations come in MS Word format.
  
  To listen to the audio files we reccommend the freeware WinAmp applet; the freeware IrfanView program does a fine job showing and resizing the .tif files. People who do not have MS Word could use the free OpenOffice suite or alternatively download Microsoft's free Word-viewer.
  
  The files are located at http://domovina.xs4all.nl/intercepts. More files will be added in the coming days and weeks.
  
  
  
  Frank Tiggelaar
  the Netherlands

• Saturday January 17, 2004 at 7:56 am
  Mr. Tiggelar

  The War Party is really grasping at straws this time aren't they ?

  Some of these suppossed intercepted calls have been used at the ICTY.

  More often than not, these obviously doctored transcripts, resulted in much embarassment to the prosecution and quite a bit of amusement for the defense.

  The Prosecution has nearly $100 million a year to spend on its efforts and the best it can do are these obviously doctored tapes ?

  $100 million should be buying a little bit better editing equipment, don't ya think ?

  As for Arben.........he is a old collague of mine. He used to brag how tight he was with the KLA........that is until the entire KLA staff of the Llap Zone was thrown in Kfor gaol for murdering Albanians..........Arben, ol' buddy how's your hero Major General Remi doing ? As a American taxpayer, I am first unhappy that
  
  AP V
  NY
  NY

• Saturday January 17, 2004 at 8:36 am
  I miss comments from Vera Martinovic, Niko (sorry I do not remember his full name) and other regular commentators. There have been plenty of material to write about-Zafirovic, Markovic, Zecevic. Please concentrate on this. Leave that character Arben be, he is not important at all. Just ignore him.
  
  Svetlana Vugdelic
  Bar
  Srbija-Crna Gora

• Saturday January 17, 2004 at 9:02 am
  Arben Qosja are you sure you lived in Kosovo? I ask this because you confuse Nebojsa Covic and Dobrica Cosic and Vojislav Seselj. I know that Kosovo Albanians ignore Serbian politicians but these three men are very different people. I am surprised you can confuse them.

  To be honest with you I wonder if you are not just repeating what. your father / family tells you without so much knowledge / experience. As Vasile says tell us your story. I say to you as I say to others its not smart to act in similar to people you dont like. The ones to respect are ones with their own brain. You must act with your own brain too.

  Ryan Mircic more or less everything you say I agree with. What Gogol said is also right about economy although we / I did not understand it in 1989.

  Ryan Your comment about Tudjman and Milosevic saving their own arses remind me of something. Yugoslav supporting Serbs wanted JNA troops to go hard but fair into Slovenia to stop it straight. Instead they sent boys with small weapons. Yesterday I watched trial with Ante Markovic and Milosevic accused Markovic of starting the whole war by putting JNA troops in Slovenia. Milosevic doesnt understand - he thinks that this makes him look peaceful. Actually it shows truth that he didnt defend Yugoslavia. If only 100 or 200 people died in that action it would have been worth to save tens thousands who died and hundreds of thousands of people thrown from their homes

  Soon as Slovenia was gone it was to be predicted that Yugoslavia fall. This is something Yugoslav supporting Serbs inside Serbia never forget.
  
  Arandjel Pasic
  Jug

• Saturday January 17, 2004 at 9:16 am
  Ceca kako je dole? For you to mention that Nico guy reminds me something. During election Micunovic met a gypsy. He asked his name. Gypsy repied 'Tarzan'. Micun said 'Tarzan, a! like the guy in movies who swims in the forest'. Did you see it? Everyone laugh at Micun because everyone knows you swim in rivers not forest.

  Maybe Tarzanovic is real name of that Nico guy after all.

  Gogol dont you have mail of Vera. Do you know why she does not write anymore?
  
  Arandjel Pasic
  Jug

• Saturday January 17, 2004 at 9:33 am
  
  -QUOTE- The Prosecution has nearly $100 million a year to spend on its efforts [..] -UNQUOTE-
  
  The total ICTY budget is around $100 million/year, the prosecution receives only a part of this sum.
  
  
  
  Frank Tiggelaar
  the Netherlands

• Saturday January 17, 2004 at 10:19 am
  I concur with the repeated plea to ignore this fellow Arben.

  And I also would like to see more about the current and final days of the “prosecution” witnesses in the Hague.

  Finally, a question: Has anybody seen a list of names of those killed in Srebrenica? My preoccupation with Srebrenica stems from the memory of Kragujevac. There Germans killed 5000 citizens including schoolboys. All names are known.
  
  D. Jovanovic, physicist
  USA

• Saturday January 17, 2004 at 11:14 am
  Frank

  Strictly speaking you are correct, the Prosecution gets 'only' a part of the $100 million annual budget for the ICTY.

  However, even 'only' a part of $100 million per year is still a staggering amount of money wasted.

  It's pretty obvious that the OTP is a bloated organization filled with 3rd rate hacks who have only the barest notions of Litigating International Law.

  How does one know this ?

  We know that the OTP is filled with losers beacuse The OTP has spent upwards of $200 million building the case against Milosevic and only served to undermine its own position

  The OTP brings witness after witness who end up supporting the defense position.

  The OTP's incompentance has set back International Jurisprudence at least 100 years. It will take a long time for International Law to recover from the OTP's excesses.
  
  AP V
  NY
  NY

• Saturday January 17, 2004 at 11:23 am
  

  He, who pays the piper calls the tune

  Most of the 100$m comes from the generous US tax paper . . .
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Shangri-La

• Saturday January 17, 2004 at 12:24 pm
  D. Jovanovic, physicist

  I have tried to find on the internet the list of names of people killed in Srebrenica - any list of people that died in Srebrenica. I have also tried to find a compiled list of the people that died in Bosnia. I only found estimates of which International Red Cross had the best regarding how many refugees, dead, relocated. My guess is that some killings of Muslims in Srebrenica did occur, but to make a better impact Muslims also compiled in that list names of the people that died in war during three years. I guess the best chance of finding facts is going to be a lawsuit of Srebrenica Muslims against Holland government in which they ask from Holland government (for Holland UN peacekeepers not protecting them) one billion dollars in damages. Since no other court than ICTY can allow crap as evidence, I guess they will finally have to put a foot where their mouth is and provide evidence, that might include list. I guess Srebrenica Muslims just become too greedy.
  
  Dakic Ana
  Serbia

• Saturday January 17, 2004 at 1:18 pm
  Walter,

  My memories of the coverage preceeding the NATO bombing of Serbia include one instance wherein a 'talking head' was proclaiming that the Serbs had killed or expelled ALL (yes, that's how huge the hyperbole was at the time) Kosovo Albanian men of battle-age. Simultaneously, as far as the camera could span, hundreds of Kosovar Albanian men of battle-age could be seen, waving and grinning.

  Of course there is also the infamous documentary by Nancy Durham about a young female KLA member who described how the Serbs had raped and killed her 9 year-old sister. Overwhelmed with sympathy, Ms Durham later returned only to find the little sister -- happy and healthy, sitting on a couch watching tv. At least in this one instance, Ms Durham had the integrity to explain how she had been duped. I'd love to see all that CNN footage rerun now. Now that we know there were not 100,000 Kosovo Albanian casualties as proclaimed by Clinton, et al, but rather fewer than 3000 bodies of all enthnicities found.
  
  M Donne
  Canada

• Saturday January 17, 2004 at 1:23 pm
  HTML test: UCK
  
  serjoe b
  italy

• Saturday January 17, 2004 at 1:32 pm
  Oh, I am also reminded of how the atrocities, the extremely cruel ethnic cleansing of the Serbs, Romas, and other minorities in Kosovo by the KLA after the bombing was excused as 'revenge killings'. In light of the evidence, one has to ask: revenge for what? Of course such atrocities against the Serbs in Kosovo continue to this day. B92 reported on October 17, 2003: 'Kosovo Serb dies of starvation'.

  Looking like a prisoner from Auschwitz. "Although he lived in central Urosevac, he had not eaten anything for more than fifteen days because his Albanian neighbours stopped bringing him food and he did not dare go into the street alone, said physician Nebojsa Srbljak.

  The president of the Serb National Council, Milan Ivanovic, accused UNMIK of being responsible because Serbs and other non-Albanians still have no freedom of movement in the province.

  Ivanovic, who is also a physician in the Mitrovica Hospital, confirmed that Velikinac had died of starvation.

  Only about fifteen Serbs live in Urosevac today, djown from ten thousand before the 1999 war.
  
  M Donne
  Canada

• Saturday January 17, 2004 at 1:45 pm
  D. Jovanovic,

  I came across a very interesting synopsis re Sebrenica titled: 'Srebrenica casualty numbers challenged by experts' when I used the keywords 'Srebrenica' and 'names'. I will try to recover the URL.
  
  M Donne
  Canada

• Saturday January 17, 2004 at 1:53 pm
  I have just read comment of Toma Fila, lawyer at many "trials" in the Hague "tribunal". He says that Milosevic will not be able to have as many witnesses as he wants (200-300 hundred, because many of those who want to testify will be afraid that they might be accused. Milosevic has to hand in all witness statements within three months with their full particulars, so they can be intimidated, bribed and made to give up their testemony. Fila also says that the first "half time" will be much more easier that the second one. Milosevic does not have so much resources, financial and others, he has no possibility to meet and talk with his witnesses alone and he and his witnessess can be supervised at any time. Now we arrive at the crucial issue "How fair is this trial, if it is at all?" Please give your comments about "second half".
  
  Svetlana Vugdelic
  Bar
  Srbija-Crna Gora (?)

• Saturday January 17, 2004 at 2:47 pm
  To Jurist and participants: I apologize for posting such big article

  Srebrenica Casualty Numbers Challenged by Experts

  BALKAN & EASTERN MEDITERRANEAN POLICY COUNCIL

  Srebrenica Casualty Numbers Challenged by Experts as Politicized and Ethnically Divisive WASHINGTON, DC, September 18, 2003: On the eve of the dedication of a monument to Muslims killed at Srebrenica, in Bosnia-Herzegovina, in 1995, a group which includes a former UN official, intelligence experts, and journalists, released a statement challenging the alleged casualty number of 7,000 victims as "vastly inflated and unsupported by evidence".

  They asserted that one-sided interventionist policies permitted al-Qaida forces and radical Islamists backed by the Iranian clerical government to take root during the Bosnian war, clouding the future of the region. As well, they agreed that the "memorialization" of false numbers in the monument actually appeared to be intended to perpetuate regional ethnic hatred and distrust and to deliberately punish one of the victim groups in the Bosnian civil war. Former US President Bill Clinton is expected to attend and legitimize the dedication of the monument at Srebrenica, which was constructed using one million dollars of US Embassy funds at the request of High Representative Paddy Ashdown. But former BBC journalist Jonathan Rooper, who has researched the events in Srebrenica since 1995, says that the region was a graveyard for Serbs as well as Muslims and that a monument to inflated casualties on one side "serves neither truth nor the goal of reconciliation".

  Phillip Corwin, former UN Civilian Affairs Coordinator in Bosnia during the 1990s, said: "What happened in Srebrenica was not a single large massacre of Muslims by Serbs, but rather a series of very bloody attacks and counterattacks over a three year period which reached a crescendo in July of 1995." Mr. Corwin is author of Dubious Mandate, an account of his experiences during the conflict. He points out that Srebrenica, which was designated a safe zone, was never demilitarized as it was claimed to be, and that Muslim paramilitary leader Nasir Oric, who controlled Srebrenica, launched repeated attacks on surrounding Serb villages. He noted: "I was the United Nations" chief political officer in Bosnia the day that Srebrenica fell. Coincidentally, it was the same day that the Bosnian Government tried to assassinate me as I drove over Mount Igman on the way to Sarajevo…"

  Copley added that, according to intelligence obtained from Islamist sources, that the monument was intended to become a shrine for radical Islamists in Europe and site for annual pilgrimages. He added: "Deputy High Representative Donald Hays forced the Republica Srpska Government to issue a statement which accepted the radical Islamists" version of the Srebrenica affair, despite the fact that the Office of High Representative does not have any investigative capability of its own to make a valid assumption on the matter. As well, the International Criminal Tribunal on Yugoslavia (ICTY) in The Hague " no friend of the Serbs " has itself not completed its investigation of Srebrenica, and nor has the office of the Government of Republica Srpska which has been working with the ICTY."

  … Rooper says that at least 1,000 Serbs, mostly civilians, were killed by forces led by Oric who did not bother to hide his crimes, even showing videotapes of slaughtered Serbs to Western journalists. Meanwhile a group of academic experts and journalists from the United States, Canada, Germany, France, Serbia, and the United Kingdom has been organized by Professor Edward S. Herman of the University of Pennsylvania to examine the evidence regarding events at Srebrenica in July 1995 and earlier, how the media reported these events, and the political role of claims about Srebrenica. It is expected that a report from this group will be available in June 2004. Rooper points out that the 40,000 inhabitants the UN used in July of 1995 before the capture of Srebrenica roughly matches the number of former residents accounted for in the aftermath. A commander of the Muslim- dominated Army of BiH (Bosnia-Herzegovina) later confirmed to parliament in Sarajevo that 5,000 BiH troops escaped largely intact to Tuzla while the UN registered some 35,632 civilian survivors.

  While the capture of Srebrenica was reported in July 1995, as it unfolded, an international outcry only took place a month later, after Madeleine Albright, then US representative to the UN, held up a photo which she said provided evidence that thousands of Muslim victims had been buried at field near Nova Kasaba, 19 kilometers from Srebrenica. Excavations which took place following the war, however, yielded 33 bodies at Nova Kasaba. Two years after the event, a total of 400 bodies had been found at 20 sites near Srebrenica, an area which had seen bloody fighting over a three year period. Instead of acknowledging that there was no support for the original figures, Rooper says a various means were used to prop up the official story.

  "Spokesmen for the Clinton Administration suggested that Serbs might have moved the bodies to other locations. Rooper points out that excavating, transporting and reburying 7,000 bodies was "not only beyond the capabilities of the thinly stretched, petrol-starved Bosnian Serb Army, but would have been easily detected under intense surveillance from satellites and geostationary drones.

  By 1998, thousands of bodies excavated from all across Bosnia were stored at the Tuzla airport. Despite state of the art DNA testing, only 200 bodies have been linked to Srebrenica. Around 3,000 names on a list of Srebrenica victims compiled by the Red Cross matched voters in the Bosnian election in 1996. "I pointed out to the OSCE that there had either been massive election fraud or almost half the people on the ICRC missing list were still alive," says Rooper. "The OSCE finally responded that the voting lists had been locked away in warehouses and it would not be possible for them to investigate."

  The inflated Srebrenica statistics are part of a larger picture that intelligence experts such as Bodansky and Copley find troubling. They say US policymakers have been slow to recognize that Bosnia is viewed as a strategic base for operations in Europe by al-Qaida and the HizbAllah. In 1993, when the Clinton Administration was strongly backing the Muslim President of Bosnia, Alija Izetbegovic, Osama Bin Ladin was regular visitor to his office, according to Renate Flottau of the German weekly, Der Spiegel. The Bosnian daily, Dani, reported that the Vienna Embassy of BiH issued a passport to Bin Ladin in 1993.

  A special report by Copley, issued Tuesday, September 16. 2003. noted that Bosnia-Herzegovina Ambassador Huso Zivalj, who issued the passport to Bin Ladin, later served as Bosnian Ambassador to the United Nations in September 11. "It is becoming increasingly clear that the movement of Zivalj to the New York post just before (and his departure just after) the September 11,2001 attacks was not coincidental." "To refer to US Bosnia policy as a success story is to disregard substantial evidence to the contrary. Instead of misplaced symbolism in Srebrenica, US policymakers need to take a hard look at assumptions which have guided US actions in the region," Copley said. Website: www.StrategicStudies.org
  
  Dakic Ana
  Serbia

• Saturday January 17, 2004 at 4:03 pm
  Godfred,

  I'm sorry if I didn't make myself clear. In earlier post, the thugs I refered to were Serb para-militaries who remained in Northern Mitrovica after Serbia sued for peace. They were protected and hidden by the local civilian Serb population. These Serb criminals are otherwise known as "the bridgewatchers", left there to harrass Kfor and the local Albanian population of Northern Mitrovica.

  I have nothing but respect for the Danish peacekeepers of Kfor. They have a difficult job trying to keep the Serb para-militaries under control. The DANISH TROOPS ARE DOING A GREAT JOB! Sometimes they have to crack a few belligerent Serb heads just to keep order.

  This reminds me of a cartoon I saw during the humiliating thumping we gave the Serbs back in 1999. It showed a bunch of pigs going around knocking over outhouses. It had the word "Serbs" written on the backs of the pigs. It was in a French political magazine.
  
  Arben Qosja
  Chicago
  USA

• Saturday January 17, 2004 at 4:14 pm
  The Cruelest Cleansings The UN police get tougher with Albanian war criminals in Kosovo. New unrest possible, because for many these criminals are still heroes A strange grave lies in the midst of a large meadow in the village of Crni Luk. There are no names on the four gravestones, and the inhabitants of village of 3,000 react with distrust to questions about the dead. "This is where we buried the charred remains of the Krasniqi clan," says a young Albanian man and adds immediately with a wave of his hand: "But I do not know more than that." Twenty-four Albanians were shot, among them 13 children, and their houses were burned down. But the victims are not buried in the heroes’ cemetery at the end of the village, where under a sea of Albanian flags rest its former inhabitants killed in clashes with the Serbs. They are not buried there because, according to protected testimony by eyewitnesses, the Krasniqis were apparently executed by their compatriots only after the arrival of KFOR international peacekeeping forces in the Yugoslav province of Kosovo. The four Krasniqi brothers were considered "loyalists to the Serbian regime" and worked in Serbian companies; one of them was even as a journalist for the Serbian language newspaper "Jedinstvo". Under the Milosevic regime they enjoyed privileges; afterwards, this was their death sentence. The extermination of this family, like other Albanian crimes, could have been quickly hushed up. For since the United Nations made the Kosovo their protectorate in July 1999, they had proceeded against presumed war criminals from the numbers of the Kosovo Albanians only with velvet gloves. But now, more than three years after the NATO takeover, the international community finally dares to also confront its recent allies. Its investigators have even arrested some leaders of the former Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA) who are suspected of committing murder.
  
  Rabid Serb
  

• Saturday January 17, 2004 at 4:16 pm
  Ten children, who were injured in a terrorist attack in Crkvene Vodice near Obilic, are, unfortunately, only the last in a long row of victims in Kosmet, where, in spite of numerous UN security forces, ethnic Albanian crimes are regular. Guided by nationality as the only criterion for the choice of their victims, and whishing that all that is Serbian perishes from Kosovo-Metohija, terrorists did not even spare the youngest. The monstrosity of some of the crimes, whose victims were exactly the youngest, is not recorded anywhere in the world. The most horrible crimes, committed so far in the southern Serbian province, are certainly those in which two six-months-old babies were burnt alive last year. This crime left the Yugoslav public speechless. In the middle of August last year, Albanian bandits in the center of Prizren, set fire to a house in which Lela Dimic and her six-months-old baby died, and only because she refused to go to so-called KLA`s "informative talk". A month after that, also in Prizren, four Albanian terrorists snatched six-months-old boy Sava from the hands of his mother Dragana Mladenovic, as a punishment for her not wanting to move to Serbia. They threw the baby into a shed and then set fire to it. Of course those who committed these monstrous crimes, were not found. The criminals, who kidnapped Veselin Takic and his six-years-old granddaughter Ana, in August last year, were not also found. Several days later, KFOR soldiers found the little girl's body massacred. Terrorists cut off the little girl's arm.
  
  Rabid Serb
  

• Saturday January 17, 2004 at 4:17 pm
  The name of a twelve-years-old Turkish girl Izabela Tamniku is also on the long list of children-victims in Kosmet since the arrival of KFOR and UNMIK, who are not obviously capable of preventing crimes over children. Izabela was murdered in the center of Prizren. The attacker, who remained unknown, tried to rape her, and when she started to defend herself, he stabbed a knife in her chest and murdered her.
  
  Rabid Serb
  Pigstone

• Saturday January 17, 2004 at 4:19 pm
  Four senior ethnic Albanian rebels convicted of war crimes in Kosovo By GARENTINA KRAJA, The Associated Press PRISTINA, Serbia-Montenegro (AP) -- A court convicted four senior ethnic Albanian rebels and sentenced them to prison Wednesday for atrocities committed during their 1998-1999 war against Yugoslav forces in the province of Kosovo. It was the first time that the United Nations-administered court had convicted anyone of war crimes from the rebel side in the Kosovo conflict. The three judges sentenced Rrustem Mustafa and three of his associates to prison terms ranging from five to 17 years for ordering the killings, illegal arrests and torture of fellow ethnic Albanians.
  
  Rabid Serb
  Pigstone

• Saturday January 17, 2004 at 4:24 pm
  The Abanian Committee of Kosovo organized massive campaigns of ethnic cleansing and genocide against the Orthodox Serbian inhabitants of Kosovo- Metohuja. A contemporary report described the ethnic cleansing and genocide of Serbs as follows: Armed with material supplied by the Italians, the Albanians hurled themselves against helpless settlers in their homes and villages. According to the most reliable sources, the Albanian burned many Serbian settlements, killing some of the people and driving out others who escaped to the mountains. At present other Serbian settlement are being attacked and the property of individuals and of communities is either being confiscated or destroyed. It is not possible to ascertain at the present time the exact number of victims of those atrocities, but it may be estimated that at least between 30.000 and 40.000 perished. Bedri Pejani, the Muslim leader of the Albanian National committee, called for the extermination of Ortodox Serbian Cristians in Kosovo Metohija and for a union of a Greater Albania with Bosnia and Herzegovina and the Rashka (Sandzak) region of Serbia, into a great Islamic state. The grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin El Husseini was presented to Pejani a plan which he approved as a being in the interest of Islam. The Germans however rejected the plan. On September 3, 1943, Italy capitulated by signing an armistice with the Allies. The German were now forced to occupy Albania with the collapse of the Italian forces. The Germans sent the 100th Jaeger Division from Greece and the 297th Infantry Division from Serbia and the German 1st Mountain Division to occupy Albania. These troops were organized into the XXI Mountain Corps which was under the command of General Paul Bader. Additional security forces for the interior were needed, however, to free up Germans troops for defense of the coastline. The decision was made to form an Albanian SS mountain division for this purpose. In April in 1944, recruitment for the Albanian SS division began under direction of the newly formed Albanian Nazi party, which has been formed through the efforts of Ernst Kaltenbrunner. Acting upon instructions of Reichsfuehrer SS Henrich Himmler, the SS main office ordered the formation of an Albanian volunteer mountain division on April 17, 1944. SS Brigadefuehrern and Generalmajor of the Waffen SS Josef Fitzhum, who Headed the Higher SS and Police Command in Albania, oversaw the forming and training of the division. The SS high Command planed to create a mountain division of 10.000 men. The Higher SS and Police Command in Albania, in conduction with the Albanian National Committee, listed 11.398 possible recruits for the Waffen SS mountain division. Most of these recruits were "kossovars", shqiptar Ghegs from Kosovo Metohija in Serbia. The Shqiptar Tosks were found mainly in southern Albania. Most of the Shqiptar collaborators with the nazi forces were theNazi forces were the so-called Kossovars, ethnic Shqiptars from the Kosmet of Serbia. The Nazi German-sponsored Albanian gendarmes, special police and para-military units were made up by Kossovars. The Kossovars were under the direct control of the Albanian Interior Minister Xhafer Deva. The Skanderbeg Division was formed and trained in Kosovo and was made up mostly of muslim Shqiptar Kossovars. There were only a small number of Albanians from Albania proper in the division. The Skanderbeg Mountain Division of the Wafen SS was thus essentially a Kosovo or Kosmet Division. The Division was stationed and operated in Kosovo and other Serbian regions almost exclusively. Of the 11.398 recruits listed for the Division, 9.275 were ascertained to be suitable to draft in the Waffen SS. Of those suitable to be drafted, 6.491 Albanian were chosen and inducted into the Skanderbeg Division. To this Albanian core were added veteran German troops primarily Reichdeutsche from Austria and Volkdeutcshe officers, NCOs, and enlisted men, transferred from the 7th SS Mountain Division "Prinz Eugen" which was stationed in Bosnia-Hercegovina. The Kosovo Albanian 21st Waffen Gebirgs Division der SS "Skanderbeg" consisted in total of 8.500 - 9.000 men of all ranks. The 6.491 Shqiptar recruits were assembled at depots in Kosovo where the formation and the training of the division began.
  
  Rabid Serb
  Pigstone

• Saturday January 17, 2004 at 4:26 pm
  Peter Taylor, can You provide me with links to the NATO war crimes in Nis ?? Thanks
  
  Serjoe b
  Italy

• Saturday January 17, 2004 at 4:50 pm
  Frank Tiggelaar,

  Will you also be disclosing the sources of these tape recorded transcripts? Where did they come from? Who recorded them? How did they record them?

  And will you be disclosing together with the recordings how they were produced. What sort of tape was used in the original recording? What sort of device was used to make the original recording? Is the particular device that made the recordings still in exsistance?

  The key question regarding these tapes is their authenticity. No doubt the content of the tapes is damning, but so what? In this day and age, any idiot with a computer can doctor up a tape.

  For these recordings to matter, it needs to be proven that they come from a reliable source, therefore information about how they were produced needs to be avaliable.

  As far as I can understand these tapes were made by enemy intellegence services.
  
  Andy Wilcoxson
  Washington, United States

• Saturday January 17, 2004 at 5:07 pm
  What an obsession to be naming Serbs "pigs" which by the way have demonstrated to be very intelligent (far more than the average albanian) an animal that has helped saving humans from deseases like diabetes , if this brain demaged crime prone albanian doesn't have something better to call us to really piss us off , the best he can do is go back to the muddy pond he came from and go back to the leachy life all albanians are used to , and evidently he can not exercise in his actual whereabouts .
  
  M P
  Panama

• Saturday January 17, 2004 at 5:25 pm
  M P.

  I find it amusing. I would be more concerned if this Albanian would make some intellectually admirable comment/argument. Since he is incapable of doing so he resorts to insults, making me feeling better (especially when compared to Albanians), making me believe that Serbs are telling truth and that at the and that truth will come out. Don't let it get to you (as it did to me but no more). More he behaves this way better for Serbs:)
  
  Dakic Ana
  Serbia

• Saturday January 17, 2004 at 5:50 pm
  I do not consider Serbs as pigs, I am only passing on what a French magazine wrote. And the French are supposed to be your supporters?

  The Serbs must get over the fact that they shall never be able to dominate the Albanians of Kosova. There are many myths that Serbs believe in. They must learn the truth about their past to understand why they are thought of as pariahs. Also, their Serb Orthodox Church must stop hateful propaganda about Jews, Catholics and Muslims. This is first and foremost if the Serbs wish to be seen as a decent People.
  
  Arben Qosja
  Chicago
  USA

• Saturday January 17, 2004 at 6:12 pm
  So does that mean that you should burn 6 month old serb babies and their mothers like Lele Dimic and her child? You sick moron!
  
  Rabid Serb
  Pigstone

• Saturday January 17, 2004 at 6:40 pm
  Mr Vucelic aka rabid Serb,

  I see that you continue to rant in your usual hysterical manner.Your transparent fabrications are, as always, pathetic.

  What has your desperate little life been like since you got yourself kicked off the New York Times Forums.
  
  Arben Qosja
  Chicago
  USA

• Saturday January 17, 2004 at 7:02 pm
  Arben Qosja,

  Would you be so kind as to show me even one single piece of hate propaganda that the Serbian Orthodox Church has directed at Jews, Catholic's or Muslims.

  I would be churious to see such propaganda materials.
  
  Andy Wilcoxson
  Washington, United States

• Saturday January 17, 2004 at 7:04 pm
  Lele Dimic and her 6 month old baby were spreading hateful anti-Albanian, anti-Semitic, anti-Catholic, anti-Muslim propaganda. They were also pigs. They were appropriately punished for their crimes.
  
  P M
  USA

• Saturday January 17, 2004 at 7:20 pm
  A month after that, also in Prizren, four Albanian terrorists snatched six-months-old boy Sava from the hands of his mother Dragana Mladenovic, as a punishment for her not wanting to move to Serbia. They threw the baby into a shed and then set fire to it. Of course those who committed these monstrous crimes, were not found.
  
  
  

• Saturday January 17, 2004 at 7:24 pm
  Andy,

  Just look at the Serb Orthodox cleric that got himself arrested a few weeks ago in Macedodea for spreading hate.
  
  Arben Qosja
  Chicago
  USA

• Saturday January 17, 2004 at 7:28 pm
  And this is report by Human Right Watch

  http://www.hrw.org/reports/1999/kosov2/#_1_10

  Human Rights Watch has received additional reports of the murder of Serbs in Kosovo. Eight Serbs have been killed in the town of Obilic since early June, according to KFOR officers in the town. The most recent killing occurred on June 30. According to KFOR officers in the area who have investigated the incidents, the killings were organized attacks rather than spontaneous reactions by returnees and KLA units were implicated in the killing. In Lipljan, a Serb male was decapitated in the middle of the town's busy market on Monday, July 9, sometime between 11 a.m. and 3 p.m, according to KFOR military police in the town. As of July 16, no witnesses had come forward. There are numerous reports of killings where it has been difficult to identify the perpetrators because so many Serbs have fled or are afraid and Albanians are unwilling to speak.(14) Serb residents of Dobratin village told Human Rights Watch that Dragan Madenovic, a forty-year-old night watchman, was killed in the village of Donja Gusterica (Lipljan municipality) on June 23.(15)
  
  Rabid Serb
  

• Saturday January 17, 2004 at 7:31 pm
  http://www.truthinmedia.org/Kosovo/Peace/ps34.html
  
  
  

• Saturday January 17, 2004 at 7:34 pm
  List of the killed and kidnapped children in Kosovo and Metohija after June 10, 1999 Children Kidnapped, Killed or Burned to Death in their Homes and Apartments

  BEOGRAD - The President of Yugoslavia, Vojislav Kostunica, presented the Secretary of the Hague Tribunal, Hansu Holthausu, a list of the kidnapped and missing chilren since the arrival of the international mission forces Unmika and KFOR to Kosovo to this day. The Serbian newspaper "Blic" published this list that the President presented the Secretary.

  1. Dimic Zorica, from Prizren, six months old, together with her mother Lela burned to death in a fire started by Albanian terrorists August 15, 1999

  2. Lazarevic Oliver, about 13 years old, killed in the village of Budisavci in the county of Klina, in front of his house by Albanian terrorists mid-1999.

  3. Mladenovic Sava from Prizren, 6 months old, burned to death in a fire strated by Albanian terrorists September 21, 1999, when his mother didn't want to leave her house or Prizren.

  4. Pavlovic Nenad, 15 years old, kidnapped and killed by Albanian terrrorists on June 19, 1999 in Obilic.

  5. Petrovic Jovica from the village of Bostane, county of Novo Brdo, 12 years old, killed by a firearm while tending flock near his home.

  6. Petrovic Milo, son of Ljubomir from the village of Cernice in the county Gnjilane, four years old, killed with two other Serbs by the Albanian terrorist Afrim Zecirija during an attack on the village on May 25, 2000. Zeciri approached a group of Serbs gathered in the central hall and opened fire on them.

  7. Petrovic Milo from Pec, 16 years old, killed mid-1999 in Savina Voda near Pec by a sniper.

  8. The grandson of Branko Cukic from Gnjilana, killed in June 1999, while working on his farm.

  9. Andjelovic Stojan, 17 years old, kidnapped in August 1999.

  10. Blagojevic Ivan, from the village of Ljubi near Prizren, 15 years old, kidnapped August 18, 1999 near his village with another eight Serbs

  11. Vukovic Milan from the village of Dubovnik in the county of Decani, 17 years old, disappeared on June 13, 1999 while traveling between Pec and Dubovnik.

  12. Gligorijevic Nikola, three years old, kidnapped September 7, 1999 in Pristina with his mother Dragana.

  13. Sivkovic Nenad from Pristina, 15 years old, taken at the little market near the old post office in Pristina mid-1999.

  14. Majstorovic Ivan, student 17 years old, son of Milorad, kidnapped August 19, 1999 around 10:00 a.m. near the overpass in Pristina.

  15. Markovic Aleksandar from Suva Reka, Karadjodjeva Street no. 23, 17 years old, son of Djordje and Ljubinke, kidnapped June 12, 1999, together with his parents.

  16. Markovic Radmila from Suva Reka, Karadjordjeva Street no. 23. 13 years old, kidnapped together with her brother Aleksandar and their parents and nothing in known of them since that time.

  17. Girl with the last name Nikic, 17 years old, disappeared June 24, 1999 in Pristina.

  18. Mladenovic Dragana from Prizren, kidnapped mid-1999. She had previously received threats from a group of Albanians that she would be killed unless she leaves her home. Since she refused to leave, her house was burned and her 6 month baby was thrown into the fire.

  19. Radevic Milo, 5 years old, from the village Zlopek in the county of Pec, kidnapped August 2, 1999 with his parents.

  20-23. Sekulic Bogdan, son of Milos and Goca, 5 years old, kidnapped with parents the night of June 25, 1999 in Pristina in Dardanija, together with sister Dragana, 10 years old, brother Lazar, 6 years old and sister Nevena, 2 and a half years old.

  24 Stankovic Borka, 43 years old, last time seen with her nine month grandson Milos June 16, 1999 in Kardjordje Street in Prizren and from then there is no trace of them.

  25. Stankovic Dragan from the village of Klobukar near Novo Brdo, 17 years old, kidnapped July 4, 1999.

  26. Takic Ana, 6 years old, kidnapped at the end of August 1999 by a group of Albanians in Prizren. A few days later her disfigured body was found. Her hand was cut off.

  27-28. Sutakovic Djordje, 16 years old, and his brother Radovan, 19 years old, kidnapped June 15, 1999 from their apartment in Djakovica together with mother Dara and father Nedeljko. Nothing is known of them since that time.

  29-30. Kastrati Ljuan, Rom from Prizren, kidnapped August 9, 1999 in Prizren together with three children of which is a minor, daughter Marijeta, 17 years old and son Damir, 6 years old. They were taken to an unknown location after his house was burned.

  Srbs don't estimate. Serbs record, remember and pray..
  
  Rabid Serb
  

• Saturday January 17, 2004 at 7:42 pm
  Andy, I think he gave this example:

  http://www.amnestyusa.org/urgent/ua10543.rtf

  Zoran Vraniskovski, also known as Bishop or Metropolitan Jovan, is currently detained on remand for 30 days following his arrests on 12 January. He has been charged with “causing national, racial or religious hate, discord and intolerance” under Article 319 of the Criminal Code. Amnesty International believes that the reason for his arrest and detention is due to his support for the ecclesiastical control of the Serbian Orthodox Church (SOC) over the Macedonian Orthodox Church (MOC) and considers him to be a prisoner of conscience.

  Prior to this he had been arrested on 11 January along with 12 others while celebrating a religious service in his private apartment in town of Bitola. The twelve were subsequently released though Zoran Vraniskovski was held for 24 hours and then released on 12 January, before being re-arrested on the same day.

  Zoran Vraniskovski was formerly Bishop Jovan within the MOC. In May 2002, the SOC drafted a proposal which would have put the MOC under its control. Zoran Vraniskovski publicly accepted these terms on 29 June 2002, a move welcomed by most other national Orthodox Churches. However, he was stripped of his title in July 2002 by the MOC, denounced as a “traitor” and banned from conducting any religious activities in churches in Macedonia. Many Macedonians see his stance as challenging Macedonian nationhood, and his actions provoked a storm of controversy.

  During this period Zoran Vraniskovski had locked himself in his official residence and refused to leave until local police foced an entry - an action he denounced. Under the Macedonian Constitution church and state are separate. The SOC subsequently appointed him as Metropolitan Jovan of a parallel Orthodox church organization within the SOC in Macedonia. On 10 January 2004, Zoran Vraniskovski announced an agreemment on canonical unity with a number of Macedonian Orthodox institutions. The MOC immediately expelled those who had suported this agreement. Zoran Vraniskovski and 12 of these expellees were arrested the following day in his apartment.

  BACKGROUND INFORMATION The MOC was set up in 1967 with the backing of the then-Communist authorities when it unilaterally declared itself to be a separate Orthodox Church. The setting up of the MOC was an important landmark in modern Macedonian national history. Previously, the church had enjoyed autonomous status within the SOC which contines to claim ecclesiastical jurisdiction over Orthodox believers in Macedonia, and ownership of pre-1967 MOC property.

  RECOMMENDED ACTION: Please send appeals to arrive as quickly as possible:

  - stating that Amnesty International believes Zoran Vraniskovski to be a prisoner of conscience detained for his non-violent conscientiously held beliefs;

  - calling for his immediate and unconditonal release and for all criminal charges against him to be dropped.
  
  Dakic Ana
  Serbia

• Saturday January 17, 2004 at 7:56 pm
  Arandjel, once Slovenia became independent, it was inevitable that Yugoslavia would collapse. But Milosevic never cared about his own people so imagine what he thought about non-Serbs. He abandoned the Serbs in Krajina and Bosnia, not to mention Kosovo. From 1993 he started to distance himself from the SDS leadership in Bosnia. The mass media in Serbia then went from portraying the Serbs in Croatia and Bosnia as "our brave Serbian brothers" to criticising them harshly.

  I'm glad that Milosevic is in the Hague. Although I'm aware that it is a political court, his behaviour towards his own people, not to mention others, was despicable. He was a power-hungry leader, just like Tudjman and Izetbegovic.
  
  Ryan Mircic
  St.Albans
  UK

• Saturday January 17, 2004 at 8:00 pm
  Serjoe b, I have a site that may interest you which concerns NATO war crimes in Serbia, including Nis: www.sramota.com/nato
  
  Ryan Mircic
  St.Albans
  UK

• Saturday January 17, 2004 at 8:11 pm
  Re: "The inflated Srebrenica statistics are part of a larger picture that intelligence experts such as Bodansky and Copley find troubling. They say US policymakers have been slow to recognize that Bosnia is viewed as a strategic base for operations in Europe by al-Qaida and the HizbAllah. In 1993, when the Clinton Administration was strongly backing the Muslim President of Bosnia, Alija Izetbegovic, Osama Bin Ladin was regular visitor to his office, according to Renate Flottau of the German weekly, Der Spiegel. The Bosnian daily, Dani, reported that the Vienna Embassy of BiH issued a passport to Bin Ladin in 1993."

  Slow to recognise? That must be the joke of the year! THEY PUT THEM THERE, just like they put them in Chechnya!

  The purpose is to create havoc in Europe and Russia and to prevent Europe and Russia becoming a major stumbling block to US political hegemony and corporate/economic takeover in that part of the world. They will be used to create conflicts and to divide and conquer Europe and Russia in the finest colonial/imperial traditions. Anyone who protests will be considered like Milosevic, a racist who opposes democracy, freedom and human rights, thereby bringing the entire machinery down on themselves.

  With a non existent UN, it will be a case of carte blanche for the predators... Straight out "democratic and humanitarian" theft as in the case of Bosnia, Kosovo, Afghanistan, Iraq and many other places in the world.

  Pax Americana goes GLOBAL! That's the story for the 21st century.
  
  David
  Oztralia

• Saturday January 17, 2004 at 8:12 pm
  Arben Qosja , Is it that hard for you to understand that Kosovo DOES NOT belong to you , that Serbs commited the big mistake of giving your people a place where to develop and integrate into Europe , but you went back to your old mad dog's behavior of biting the hand that feed you like you're doing at this very moment to you're NATO sponsors , you have to realize something that's very pitiful to any human , you can't be trusted you mean trouble , you have been a problem to all your neighbors for the last 100 years not counting the previous 500 in which you were good Otoman hound dogs from whom you learned albanian most popular sport , beheading . Put your 15th century tribal traditions aside and get a civilization enema and maybe that way you can integrate to the modern world from the bottom up 'cause the other way around is just lost cause , think about it (excuse me I was forgeting you lost your brain when you had your last stomach disorder).
  
  M P
  Panama

• Saturday January 17, 2004 at 8:36 pm
  

  Who was it that said Tudjman, Izetbegovic, Kucan and Milosevic ALL wanted to destroy YU? Indications are that Milosevic did not have that course of action as an objective at all. On the contratry, indications are that he wanted YU preserved.

  Milosevic may have been power hungry but when the Krajina Serbs and the Bosnian Serbs were severed from YU (courtesy of German, Vatican, US, European and UN recognition) Milosevic's options were very limited. There was only the Vance Owen plan that could give them some semblance of autonomy within the newly formed states. Anything more was out of the question even if Milosevic took Serbia into war itself.

  The brave brothers didn't seem to understand that Vance Owen was the only option the UN and the international "community" would give them no matter what Milosevic did! Must be the Bosnian stubborness I suppose.

  As for Milosevic being power hungry, he could have stayed in power MUCH MUCH longer if he'd kissed a little ass. Either he wasn't so power hungry or he wasn't an ass-kisser, or maybe neither? Such "psychological profiling" boils down to just hogwash propaganda by self appointed psychologists, and I believe there are millions of those about (including myself at times LOL).

  As for anyone being glad Milosevic (et al Serbs) is in the Hague, the last people who should be glad about that are the Serbs themselves for they are thereby themselves in the Hague. It's just a matter of seeing the forest apart from the tree. It's not hard to get lost in such circumstances, is it?
  
  David
  Oztralia

• Saturday January 17, 2004 at 9:16 pm
  

  War is the continuation of politics by military means

  Karl Von Clausewitz
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Shangri-La

• Saturday January 17, 2004 at 9:19 pm
  

  War therefore is an act of violence to compel our opponent to fulfil our will

  Karl Von Clausewitz
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Shangri-La

• Saturday January 17, 2004 at 9:33 pm
  As we near the defense phase of the inquisition at The Hague Milosevic will be required to submit a list of his witnesses to the Prosecution. This is an accepted practice in English jurisprudence; however, the rules of evidence do not require written statements to be submitted with the witness list. The tribunal has created its own rules which have nothing to do with common or criminal law as practiced in the nations using British legal traditions.

  The tapes that Mr. Tiggelaar writes about are another example of the breech of the rules of evidence. Taped conversation is not admissible unless it was obtained with the permission of the parties involved in the conversation or the conversation was gathered under a court order or the conversation is intended to be public or it was gathered in a public setting where there was no expectation of privacy. Since the Tribunal is illegal and a questionable organ of the United Nations the tapes should be inadmissible “ab initio” from the beginning. Mr. May has shown himself to be ignorant of the law that he swore to uphold.

  Best evidence is that which is original, and not doctored as is the possibility in these taped telephone conversations. Andy your questions are good.

  Ana I thought that you were going to leave this Karmesin (Arben Qosja)alone since he pursues his own agenda with his very own fraud. He wants to contradict his own deeds by attributing them to others.PLUS VALET UNUS OCULATUS TESTIS QUAM AURITI DECEM.
  
  Walter Trkla
  Kamloops BC
  CANADA

• Saturday January 17, 2004 at 9:46 pm
  Forum members, Please!

  Do not respond to this Albanian Arben. He thrives on this. He never answers directly about legitimate documented posts but only continues with his pack of lies and invented slogans. Just trying to provoke the normal calm people.

  This way he brings about quarrel and rancor to this otherwise sensitive and normal Forum,

  Just ignore him.
  
  D. Jovanovic
  USA

• Saturday January 17, 2004 at 9:55 pm
  Ryan Mircic I have never seen these pictures before. What a bunch of CRIMINALS. I am trying to hold back my rage. NATO SHAME
  
  Walter Trkla
  KAMLOOPS BC
  Canada

• Saturday January 17, 2004 at 10:17 pm
  Arben Qosja,

  Are you talking about the Macedonian who defected to the Serbian Orthodox Church? Is that your example of "hate propaganda?"

  Besides I didn't ask you about the internal affairs of the various factions of the Christian Orthodox faith.

  You made a claim that the Serbian Orthodox Church is spreading hate propaganda against Jews, Catholics, and Muslims.

  I am asking you to prove your claim. Show me one single piece of hate propaganda that the Serbian Orthodox Church distributed against Jews, Muslims or Catholics.
  
  Andy Wilcoxson
  Washington, United States