 MILOSEVIC TRIAL DISCUSSION ARCHIVE |
| JURIST >> LEGAL NEWS - WORLD LAW >> Discussion >> Milosevic Trial Discussion Archive |
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Former Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic is on trial for war crimes in the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia at The Hague. This marks the first time a head of state has been personally prosecuted before an international criminal court.
Is Slobodan Milosevic getting a fair trial?
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- discussion archive
- Thursday January 16, 2003 at 12:14 am
Afganistan-batting 400, Balkans-0, Korea - 350, South America ??. The US's 200+ year batting average is over 500. But grading 'batting' averages for all countries involved is another topic. The Balkans was, based on 'Tribunal' transcripts, botched up by our 1900's impeached leadership, and the 'bombing' with NWO Media support, shamed the world.Hopefully I see signs of change by the current leadership. The 'Rage and Pride' by Fallaci', adds to opening eyes as to the direction we must take. Since Carter, all (UN) sided with an underdog and this was, IMO, a failed appeasement policy.
Big Media and CNN are on the ropes, they no longer can filter the 'news' as they did. All this is going to get rehashed, IMO soon.
J P
US, Wis - Thursday January 16, 2003 at 1:22 am
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! EXCELLENT ARTICLE on WORLD SOCIALIST WEB SITE (www.wsws.org), for 16 January 2003, about Plavsic and much more, published just few minutes ago: The Milosevic trial Pro-western Bosnian Serb leader given exceptional treatment http://www.wsws.org/articles/2003/jan2003/hagu-j16.shtml Some excerpts: "Indeed Plavsic spoke openly of her anticommunist and pro-monarchist sentiments, praising Second World War Chetnik fascist leader Dragoljub Mihailovic for his efforts to “cleanse the future united Serb lands of all enemies of Serbdom and Orthodoxy, as well as of anti-national elements” ( Srbija, September 1992)." "Plavsic openly boasted of her extreme nationalism, deriding Muslims as “genetically deformed material that embraced Islam” (Svet, September 1993), and denouncing the then Yugoslav president Slobodan Milosevic as a traitor to the Serbs who had “surrendered Kosovo [to the Kosovar Albanians].” She also condemned Milosevic for trying to get her to sign the first Bosnian (Vance-Owen) peace plan and then because he signed the Dayton Agreement." !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Misa Sinadinovic
Belgrade
Yugoslavia - Thursday January 16, 2003 at 2:30 am
Just read World Secialist Website and it is disturbing. Again I quote Walter, “Weeds in Wheat fields.” Copied from Emperors Clothes, the following: "Witness To Jasenovac's Hell" At the opening ceremonies of the Holocaust Museum in Washington in 1993, Croatian President Franjo Tudjman was an honored guest. This is remarkable. Tudjman was a Holocaust denier, a Serbophobe and an apologist for the Croatian clerical fascists known as Ustashas. During World War II, the Ustashas set up Jasenovac, the first Nazi death camp in Europe. An Associated Press dispatch commented that Tudjman had written: "...the 'main characteristics' of Jews were 'selfishness, craftiness, unreliability, miserliness, underhandedness and secrecy."' AP also reported that: "...Naomi Paiss, communications director for the museum, said the State Department recommended that Tudjman, as a democratically elected leader, be given an invitation." (AP, 21/4/93) No representative of the Serbian people was permitted to take part in the Holocaust Museum opening. Pres. Clinton and Elie Wiesel both spoke, implicitly comparing the Serbs to Nazis. Clinton threatened war. And while the Serbs, who had died alongside the Jews at Josenovac, were being denounced and threatened with slaughter at the opening of a Museum of the Holocaust, nobody denounced the presence of Mr. Tudjman. Is this because the dead lack clout? If so, it is not for want of numbers. As many as a million people (Serbs, Jews, Gypsies and Partisans) were slaughtered at Croatia's Jasenovac death camp by Mr. Tudjman's friends, slaughtered with such brutality that even the Nazis expressed shock. Lest we forget, the camp was named JASENOVAC. Emperor's Clothes has 30 copies of the excellent book, "Witness to Jasenovac's Hell". -- Jared Israel
Kathryn Love
SJC
USA - Thursday January 16, 2003 at 2:42 am
Hitler‘s Pope, John Cornwell, a Senior Research Fellow at Jesus College, Cambridge, England, and an award winning journalist and author.This book came out a few years ago. It reveals the crimes against the Serbs by the Ustashe.
Eli Wiesel should be ashamed of himself. I notice there is another holocaust movie out now.Lest we forget.
Kathryn Love
SJC
USA - Thursday January 16, 2003 at 2:55 am
First of all, the "revelation" about MI6 in the tribunal is a bit of an anticlimax. Don't the tracks lead right there? I have gone this before: the presiding judge and the prosecutor (and add to the list one of the amici curiae) are British, the Brits were doing the subversive work in Serbia, the prosecution and the prosecution witnesses are closely cooperating with the British intelligence.Where do we get the idea of the French involvement? From something someone has said. Milosevic introduced the French in his opening for the Bosnia/Croatia phase. We hear that the Serb public "knew" at the time that the French were involved in the massacre. But where is the beef? The Dutch NIOD report was mentioned. What does the report say about the French (to toss the argument around)? It mentioned the US and the Israeli involvement. As to the Foreign Legion, the later involvement in Zaire does not change anything, because the French were dragged into the the Serbian propaganda as Srebrenica was being liberated, if I understood correctly. And if the Foreign Legion is the key, why do we hear French on the tape that recorded the telephone conversation between Popovic and Krstic? Doesn't that suggest that the French were incorporated to the BSA? Come on!
More unpleasant facts. The Dutch general in charge of the Dutchbat confirmed that no genocide had taken place in Srebrenica. As long as Mr T keeps silent about the parliamentary inquiry in the Netherlands, I don't expect anything to change that. And where did the French troops confirm any genocide in Srebrenica? Then why does Milosevic insists that the French are responsible?
We also know about the dual-key system that prevented the bombing of Srebrenica. Who refused to turn the other key? Actually it doesn't matter, because whether or not there had been a bombing, one could always call it a conspiracy. Either the Serbs were targets for bombing, or if they were not bombed, they were lured into the "Srebrenica massacre" trap. But it all makes sense if one applies the following combination: the French refused to turn the key (perhaps pressured by the Dutch, who wanted to prevent the massacre of their own soldiers), and Morion warned the Serbs not to commit any stupidities, because it was a trap. And he should know. In fact, he had said the same thing about Sarajevo.
I don't believe this is too hard to follow: the French have been staged. The Americans may have vented their anger on them, as they always do, for anything that didn't go according to the American plans. But why does Milosevic take the bait? Has he been given some unsound legal advice, or, what I suggested yesterday, is he covering his own tracks in the genocide that never took place?
This is not some petty discussion. Hello, wake up. Anthony D'Amato has said that the indictments are "crazy"! All the time we have waited for the academia to wake up, and who of the eggheads is going to tell D'Amato that he doesn't know what he is talking about, now that he has uttered his opinion in WSJ? It should be obvious what is petty: I think attacking Vergès is petty, and I can only guess at the motives.
Israel Shamir said about Jared Israel: "He throws “Nazi” at everybody, from brothers Dulles to your truly." The article can be viewed at http://www.israelshamir.net/english/strange.shtml . Now, doesn't this fit into the alleged fascism of Vergès? After all, he has all the tell-tale signs of being a fascist: his mother was a Vietnamese, which is a superior race according to the Nazis, he fought in the French resistance, as any clever Nazi would do, and he is or has been a member of the communist party, which shows how clever he is hiding his tracks.
Vergès is not Milosevic's trial lawyer. Everybody can see that: Milosevic is defending himself. By in the same breath we hear that Milosevic has no lawyer. Boy, this is getting confusing. Well, who was the Quebec woman, Ms Tifaine So-and-So, who was introduced to us as Milosevic's new trial lawyer and who Jared Israel made his trip to The Hague to talk to Milosevic about the defense strategy. Jared Israel may not be working for any government, but I am not sure of his real motives, if it was he who coined the phrase "Vergès is a political liability".
Milosevic may have no dealings with Vergès, but I am not sure whether that has always been so. Maybe he knows too much, and now we are supposed to "make as much noise as possible".
I find this as unpalatable as anybody else, but Milosevic's utterly perplexing remarks about the French involvement in the Srebrenica massacre can hardly be ignored. I know this is not going to make me very popular in this discussion, but I am not excluding the possibility that Milosevic has something to hide.
Jari Nousiainen
Finland - Thursday January 16, 2003 at 3:52 am
Everything is possible. This is the Yugoslav version of the French involvement: http://www.cdsp.neu.edu/info/students/marko/politika/politika22.html . I guess it depends on evidence. It is not excluded that the Serbs wanted to stage the French! And anyway, this theory pertains to the original 1,200 figure that was the estimate in the Erdemovic trial, so the prosecution has pretty well discredited itself. But this far this discussion has not been presented by any other "evidence" of the French connection than the Popovic-Krstic telephone conversation, which would seem to implicate the Serbs. I why did the French and Dutch generals not confirm any genocide in Srebrenica or surroundings, if it was their intention to stage the Serbs? I still insist that it would have been much better for Milosevic to say that the Srebrenica, and the Krstic judgment that goes along with it, is a myth. He could have done that, because he disputes the illegality of this organ. He has to show us something to substantiate that too, you know.
J N
Finland - Thursday January 16, 2003 at 4:03 am
The conspiracy theory presented in the Politika relies on the assumption that Chirac wanted to lure Nato into Bosnia. Does this make sense? The French press has gone out of its way to criticize the American involvement in the Balkans. In general. We are pretty much reliant on French press reports when we want to question the American press reports. So is the theory now that the French were staging the Americans? And it is still possible that Srebrenica is a hoax. See this. So is Milosevic staging the French? Was that necessary to counclude the Dayton Accord? You see, there is no end to this speculation.
J N
Finland - Thursday January 16, 2003 at 5:57 am
Years ago, a couple of American dissenters , questioned the 5 million figure given by the media about the Khmer Rouge victims. All what they did was to say perhaps 5 million was a little too high given the population, the time and some other factors.
For having question the word of the high priests of the truth, they fell in disgrace. Never to be seen again in the main media now completely converted in what, to quote the devil, master propagandist Goebbles called the gutter press.
Now, the UNO itself always looking to bring truth and justice in negotiating with Cambodia to establish yet another Tribunal in Non Penh, to make peace and democracy possible, UNO itself admits no more 1.5 millions victims are involved. From 5 to 1.5 there is a difference and I can only wonder if I had to count the number of found skulls how many really there are.
But, don't forget, it was the USAIRFORCE which rained death months on end over the peaceful country bringing it to the hell the US had created in the region, now the US is the promoter of the tribunal and it is paying for it.
Gogol Charlemagne
Con.. USA - Thursday January 16, 2003 at 6:12 am
This is what the US media can plant overseas and get away with it:
The Pentagon has no official plans on how to deal with child soldiers ? leaving its troops vulnerable to deadly attacks from seemingly harmless children as well as the psychological trauma of having to kill children. Experts say the Pentagon's public relations operation is also not prepared to deal with having such images broadcast in the Arab world.
Remember Columbine April 20, 1999 when the clown on duty Clinton had to go to the TV screen to do his faces excusing the little massacre his AIRFORCE had caused in Kosovo and few hours later reappeared to do the same about the school children of Columbine killed by their peers?
Gogol Charlemagne
Conn. USA - Thursday January 16, 2003 at 6:21 am
Another this time from the WSWS half truth and a whole lie:
The current US administration has refused to ratify the International Criminal Court (...) The current clown on duty has removed the US signature from the treaty making the US a non-signatory to what the previous clown had accepted. There is no need to ratify what is not signed ,
Gogol Charlemagne
Conn. USA - Thursday January 16, 2003 at 8:37 am
Milosevic is hanging on very well. But whenever there is some problem with Prosecution he suuddenly contracts flu and gets high temarature. Isn t it a bit suspicious? I think the Court will not give him a chance to introduce and present his own defense.His illness is not a concidence. I would appreciate your opinion. Lana-Bar- Yugoslavia
Svetlana Vugdelic
Bar
Montenegro-Yugoslavia - Thursday January 16, 2003 at 9:53 am
He didn't know that going to The Hague he would meet a circus. He, a respectability, went there and made a clown of himself. About Elie Wiesel
Jean Chevrier
Montréal
Canada - Thursday January 16, 2003 at 10:41 am
JNThere simply was no massacre during the Liberation of Srebrenica. The evidence is overwhelmingP> It difficult to understand why people would spend so much time and energy trying to resolve all the complex and contradictroy conspircy tale which the Iztbegovic regime and their HumWarrior buddies have tried to pass off as the truth. The HumWarrior tale of Srebrenica may have made useful agit-prop, but it has far too many internal contradictions to be worthy of serious consideration.
Instead of wasting time and energy on the wild & crazy HumWarrior conspircy tale regarding Srebrenica's Liberation, why not examine the straightforward presentation of the events ?
Here is a summary account taken from careful reading of the Krstic hearings at the Trbunal
1992...Srebrenica occupied by BiH units under Nasir Oric. Refugees held against their will inside town by Nasir Oric. Nasir Oric threatens to kill any and all refugees who leave Srebrenica. UN peacekeepers brought in to stabilize situation.
1992/3/4/5...Nasir Oric routinely sends specially trained 'execution sqauds' into the surrounding countryside rampaging through villages and farms under the cover of darkness. Upwards of 3,100 civilians are murdered. Oric refuses to stop sending his execution squads out, meanwhile smuggling arms and munitions into his enclave. He enventually has 12,000 men trained into the 28th BiH Division under his command.
1995.....About 150-200 BSA infantry along with a 1940's era tank for fire support are ordered to make a limited attack against one of Nasir Oric's outposts. This limited attack had the objective of sealing off one of the sally points for Oric's execution squads.
The 150-200 BSA infantry are successful in reducing the Oric outpost.
The 10,000-12,000 soldiers of the 28th BiH appear to have paniced. In the 2 1/2 years in which they occupied Srebrenica the 28th BiH seem to not have created any defensive positions whatsoever. The 28th BiH, after some bickering which leads to shots being fired between rival units, simply flees the town.
A parley is arranged between the civilian leaders of Srebrenica and the BSA. After 2 1/2 years of being held hostage by Nasir Oric, these civilian refugees are finally able to leave.
A few hundred fleeing BiH soldiers are captured immeditely by the BSA. They are eventually exchanged (via the ICRC) for BSA POW's held by the BiH forces.
The over stretched BSA attempts to prevent the 10,000-12,000 fleeing soldiers from the 28th BiH from reaching the main body of BiH forces. 2 or 3 battalion sized units of the BSA ( between 1,000 - 3,000 soldiers) are ordered to try and stop the 28th BiH. The BSA fails miserably in this effort.
During a series of running firefights between BSA and BiH units, the BSA is only able to prevent a handful of the BiH soldiers from linking up with the main body of BiH forces. The vast majority of the 28th BiH escapes BSA capture.
===============
JN......that is pretty much it. Just another small battle in a soon to be obscure war. A close reading of the Krstic transcripts will coroborate this summary account.
AP V
NY
NY - Thursday January 16, 2003 at 11:45 am
I largely agree with AP V's description of the fall of Srebrenica. I would not however say that the Bosnian Serb Army (BSA)failed "miserably" to stop the Moslem breakout. There was little they could do. A column of 12,000 heavily-armed Moslem fighters will march past several hundred Serbian soldiers no matter what. I also do not believe that the actions of 200 Serbian soldiers would "panic" 12000 Moslem soldiers. The surrender of Srebrenica was clearly agreed beforehand. The territory between Srebrenica and Tuzla is overwhelmingly Serbian and 12000 Moslems fighting their way through to Tuzla would have resulted in many Serbian civilian casualties. My guess is that everything was agreed beforehand. The Moslems would march out of Srebrenica in an orderly column and leave Serbian villages in peace. The fact is that the column was indeed attacked and several hundred Moslem fighters killed. Perhaps these attacks were made by the French-controlled Serbs Milosevic refers to and not the BSA.
Michael Thomas
London
UK - Thursday January 16, 2003 at 12:48 pm
I agree with AP V's "straightforward presentation of the events", on the basis of the little I know. But that is my point exactly: why bring in the French, as Milosevic did? That seems so unnecessary. Could it be a loss of nerve, which in turn could be indicative of something else?Even Michael Thomas wouldn't have any use for the French, if it hadn't been for something Milosevic said. Why make too much of the claims of the French connection, if they don't make sense at face value? The chain of events seems quite satisfactory without the introduction of the French.
Whatever the French may have done, I can hardly believe that the blame could be simply shifted on them fair and square. Yes, you can introduce telephone intercepts without any credible background, but that is what the prosecution does.
And yes I agree. It is good for the prosecution that Milosevic has the flu always at the right time. In fact, that SOB Mirko Klarin used this argument the other way around. Whenever Milosevic has had a bad day, he falls "mysteriously" ill.
Could Del Ponte be fed up with her own circus? Why is she saying that she won't open the investigation into the Nato crimes unless the Serbs don't hand in some documents? What would she do if the Serbs would give her the documents that she wants? Would she be obliged to do indict Nato or what, for making statement like that in the public? Or would she be free to "change her mind", the bitch that she is? You know, Del Ponte did look into some of the claims of Nato war crimes, but she closed the investigation right away after concluding that there was nothing irregular in the Nato documents and Nato claims.
And now she dismisses the accusations that she didn't indict Nato as "nonsense". In fact, what do the Serbs have to lose? She would be exposed as the liar that she is if they did hand in the documents, or she would indict Nato.
Jari Nousiainen
Finland - Thursday January 16, 2003 at 1:16 pm
The following three quotes are coming from the article pointed to by Jari.
Franklin Zimring, director of the Earl Warren Legal Institute at the University of California at Berkeley described statistics on murder as "important because homicide is by far the best measured crime, given the difficulty of hiding bodies"
Eyewitness testimony though widely used is one of the most unreliable forms of evidence.
With this concrete information, one would think that the Tribunal would finally have absolute proof, provided Erdemovic was telling the truth. They would simply have to go to the scene - with Erdemovic - let him show what happened, where the bodies were buried and exhume the bodies. A forensic examination could verify if they had, in fact, been killed with 7,62mm bullets from what angle and distance. That is of course, if the tribunal really wanted to learn if Erdemovic was a reliable witness or simply giving false testimony.
Jari thanks for posting this very interesting article. I think that it explains why there are so many speculations about civil war in Former Yugoslavia and why will get even more in the future. The simple answer is lack of evidence i.e reliable information. Most responsible party, in this respect, is the ICTY because it should be impartial and has the power and obligation to collect the most reliable evidence. Everybody else involved in the conflict has a lot of gilt to share as well.
The lack of forensic and unreliability of the eyewitness testimony has be already observed by the posters on this forum. I think that we are forgetting importance of the crime scene examination. If I remember correctly somebody have mentioned this recently. I think that every defense lawyer and prosecutor would be eager to take the judges, jury, accused and witnesses to the crime scene to corroborate their evidence based on the crime scene examination and reconstruction of the crime. It obvious that the ICTY prosecution has not visited most of the crime scenes personally(if any) and that they do not intend to do so. So one of the main requests that Mr. Milosevic should bring up when his defense phase starts is the request that the crimes scenes of all the crimes that he is accused of should be visited by judges prosecution, him and that all the evidence should be checked against the crime scene. I do not know on what grounds such a request can be denied, if the ICTY is going to keep its image of adhering to a due process and legality. If Mr. Milosevic does not come up with this request this would be a big strategic error on his side.
Pera Bora
Ottawa
Canada- Thursday January 16, 2003 at 2:30 pm
If Mr. Milosevic does not have more evidence in his sleeve that would be exposed in the defense phase on French involvement in Srebrenica battle then he has made a mistake. On this one I think that we should wait and see.
Jari, the French involvement in the war in Former Yugoslavia is not clear-cut. Their peacekeepers were caught smuggling arms to Muslim forces in Bosnia and it was rather big operation. General Morillon's role was not neutral at all compared with other UN generals and commanders. He was instrumental in establishing Srebrenica as a safe haven. He was driven once from Srebrenica in a vehicle with all four tiers flat, courtesy of general Mladic. He admitted that he avoided contradicting Izedbegovic government at all costs, because he was afraid that the UN forces would be targeted
Pera Bora
Ottawa
Canada- Thursday January 16, 2003 at 2:41 pm
MTThanks for the response.
Whether or not the Nasir Oric and the unelected Iztbegovic regime chose to abandon the 28th BiH is really just a red herring. (possibly planted by the HumWarriors to further confuse the subject).
What is beyond question is due to one circumstance or another a entire BiH division fled positions they had held for 2 1/2 years in the face of a BSA company making a limited foray. There are any number of simple explainations for the collapse of the 28th BiH.
Nasir Oric had fled via helicopter a few days before. As is wont with so many gangster types, Oric may not have fostered any strong 2nd and 3rd level leadership within the division. Or Oric may have also fostered intense rivalies between his sub-commanders. Without Oric's 'strong' presence one can easily imagine a breakdown of command.
We know that one confused squad of the 28th ended up shooting a DutchBat soldier in the back.
We also know that the 28th did not appear to have created any significant defenses in their besieged garrison. 10-12,000 soldiers can dig a heck of lot of trenches in 2 1/2 years. Nasir Oric seems to have been concerned with pursuits other than digging defensive positions.
Who knows exactly why the 28th BiH collapsed ? Why care ?
Fact is the 28th did collapse, it did flee the enclave whether from Iztbegovic's perfidy or poor leadership on Oric's part is just a curious tangent.
===========
JN
As for the SM statment regarding the French. I really do not fathom what SM was alluding to. But I do know if one reads the exact statement of SM during the Tribunal hearing, there are any number of interpretation which can be made. The HumWarriors may speculate what SM meant to satisfy their everpresent need for Balkan conspricy tales.
But speculation on our part is fruitless at this point, for beginning in May, SM will finally have the opportunity to clarfy the matter. Patience oft has its own reward.
AP V
NY
NY- Thursday January 16, 2003 at 3:20 pm
I think that nobody can take credit for Mr. Milosevic's strategy to treat the ICTY as illegal, but Mr. Milosevic him self. I do not think that this is the main part of his strategy, rather a piece in a complex strategy in which the main part is to expose lies and inventions by the New World Order Masters. I think that he was right to avoid hiring other lawyers to defend him, especially now when we are starting to see that many of them have their own agendas and goals.
Pera Bora
Ottawa
Canada- Thursday January 16, 2003 at 3:41 pm
Mr.Jari Nousiainen,I have different hypothesis to offer about Srebrenica. Milosevic “admitted” of the existence of the crime because he truly did not know about it.. Not at the time and only later heard these rumors about French Foreign Legion mercenaries.
Judging how many details Milosevic knows about incidents, Racak, villages in Kosovo, Krajina etc. it is unlikely that he now feigns the ignorance or offers some far-fetched hypothesis.
I have been reading about Srebrenica “massacre” ever since it was first reported. Nowhere have I found a solid evidence or proof that it really happened. The closest to reality is the statement of the Bosnian Serb Government which states that there were about 1200 deaths, mostly combats and some vengeance killing.
The disposal of 7000 or 8000 bodies is no trivial matter. I have been a young boy in 1941 when Germans executed about 7000 men and boys, in Kragujevac, Serbia,some taken from their schoolrooms. The execution was done in groups of hundred and lasted two or three days. Indeed there were few wounded who escaped through the night before being buried or killed by German officers if moving.
To exhume and rebury the corpses in places all over Bosnia is an absolute nonsense, What with shortage of transport and gasoline, hardly likely.
I strongly believe that in due time the truth will surface and the horrible scam organized by the West will be known. For instance, the people who participated in that are said to have moved to Zaire, the year after. Can one find some willing to talk?
D Jovanovic
USA- Thursday January 16, 2003 at 3:57 pm
Comparing Kissinger and McNamara to Mr. Miloseivc would be an insult to Mr. Milosevic"
Jacques Vergès
The rest is quite flaky . . .
Gogol Charlemagne
Conn. USA- Thursday January 16, 2003 at 8:09 pm
The situation is getting better in "democratically" ruled Kosovo. No ethnic violence recently, check for your self. I find statement of Captain Hoy very disturbing. How one can be against proud and honorable people?
http://news.serbianunity.net/bydate/2003/January_16/1.html
Captain Hoy said: "They are very proud, honorable people in Kosovo. That is what we are up against."
Pera Bora
Ottawa
Canada- Thursday January 16, 2003 at 8:21 pm
The very honorable people:
In the north, where the land and food are scarce, the peasant were re-establishing the hakmarrje (blood feud) to end the many unsettled disputes which had neither remained dormant since before the Second World War or had recently arisen over the redistribution of land in the wake of land privatisation.
The blood feud, a system of revenge killing, remained a festering wound in northern Albanian society. The communist claimed to have wiped it out, but it had only be suppressed. In Ottoman times, tribes in the more inaccessible mountain regions remained virtually free of state control, and the populations there preserved their own self-adminitartion by paying the Albanian lords fixed tributes to live by the rules of their own common law. This was knownas the Doke and later as the Kanun of Lek, and remained in widespread formal use till the 1930s; it survives in oral and popular tradition up to the present day. Although this law is said to have been laid down by the chieftain Lek Dukagjin (1410-81), most of the laws and customs and organising principles of northern Albanian society. Its decrees regulated all aspects of life, including such matters as the arrangements of marriages, the boundaries of fields and the payment of taxes. It was transmitted orally from one generation to the next and arbitrated by a council of elders. It was only written down in the nineteenth century.
The Kanun had....Hence the Kanun of Lek decreed that if a man had been seriously insulted, his family had the right to assassinate the offender, but in undertaking this it would then be liable to a revenge assasination by the victim's family. The original victim's nearest male relative was then obliged to assassinate his relative's murderer.
from "Albania" by Miranda Vickers and James Pettifer
The terrible communist rule deprived these people of their basic rights now free again they can enjoy their nice habits!
Gogol Charlemagne
Conn. USA- Thursday January 16, 2003 at 8:31 pm
Based on recent democratic proposals in the nation of Macedonia a.k.a. as FYRM the Bush administration is voluntarily proposing to bring the United States constitution in line with international accepted norms as proposed to Macedonia.
1. - The presidency of the United States will have one President and two vice presidents. One vice-president will have to be black, a.k.a. as African American. The other vice-president will have to be Spanish-speaking a.k.a. Latino or Hispanic. The second vice-president can also be black and Latino.
2. - Vice-presidents will have total veto power over the president and Congress.
3. - A separate African American and Hispano police force is to be created each answering to their respective ethnic vice-presidents. The FBI will have to be split into three ethnically divided groups.
4. - Once the necessary changes to the US Constitution are adopted a mixed African and Latin American military force will be deployed in selected regions of the USA to insure peace and stability.
Democracy is a powerful force!
Gogol Charlemagne
Conn. USA- Thursday January 16, 2003 at 8:33 pm
Washington seeks military foothold in Yugoslavia: US pushes for 99 year lease on camp Bondsteel, B92, January 16th 2002 reported by Radio Free Europe
Kathryn Love
SJC
USA- Thursday January 16, 2003 at 8:36 pm
2002, I wonder why it is in the news now?Sorry for old news, and taking up space.
Kathryn Love
SJC
USA- Thursday January 16, 2003 at 8:40 pm
Kathryn, this was denied today by the Yugoslav government.
Pera Bora
Ottawa
Canada- Thursday January 16, 2003 at 8:40 pm
Hong-Kong was also leased after three little Opium Wars so that old England could sell her Idian opium to the Chinese. . .
Guantanamo is leased in perpetuaty and only if both governments agree to end the lease it will cease. Actually Guantanamo was forced on the Cubans to garantee their democracy!
Gogol Charlemagne
Conn. USA- Friday January 17, 2003 at 2:59 am
D. Jovanovic, what I first thought too was that Milosevic didn't know. For instance, in his opening statements early last year he used the phrase: "That was what I was told!" But why does he then have to try to make the impression that he knows something that we don't? And why only in September, as the Bosnia/Croatia stage was opening.And I think that the argument that Milosevic's words are open to many interpretations seems to come too late, even if true. And nothing that can be said on the subject can be fruitless. Once you start questioning Milosevic's uncanny flawlessness, the criticism that the speculation is fruitless is based on different premises altogether.
The following could be a scene from the game "Funniest News Stories", where you develop a piece of news related to three randomly selected photos. But sleep over it, and you'll see that it grows on you like a fungus.
There is little doubt that MI6 is running the show. It is equally clear that NATO wasn't lured to the Balkans because of something the French did. On the other hand, it would be in the interests of the Americans and the Muslims that the public would be made to be the French are to be blamed for everything. Maybe that was also a necessary precondition for the conclusion of the Dayton Accord (as I suggested almost out of the blue).
After the Arkan revelation last week, the MI6 connection made its entrance even in this discussion. And this is plausible. Having the prosecutor, the presiding judge and one of the defense lawyers (sort of) from the same nationality would be suspicious in itself, and one would have to find an explanation for it anyway. So why not MI6?
So what does MI6 do, when on the spot? They blame the French! But why would Milosevic do the same? I think it was mentioned in the WSJ article that Milosevic is so well informed about the witnesses that some have started to speculate he might have the help of some government. And what would that government be, if not the British? And it doesn't matter who exactly would be behind this "leaked" documents. Once a British government official, when asked about moles, rolled his eyes heavenwards and said: "This place is full of moles!" And as Andy told us, the Milosevic lawyers already know the identities of the protected witnesses! Now, how come?
But maybe the deal goes quite high in the hierarchy. The Milosevic trial has been an embarassment anyway, so why not let Milosevic relish the demolition of the prosecution, as long as he tells some of the essential bits of the new history-books. Like the Srebrenica massacre. I guess there would be enough circumstantial evidence to put the blame on the French.
And its nice to watch the Serbs destroy the French cultural centre in Belgrade.
But come on! The French killing thousands of Muslims? Why don't we have any post-traumatic-stress-syndromes in France, as we have in Canada among the Medak Pocket witnesses, which went throgh nothing of the sort. And let us remember that the French connection was originally told about the 1,200 Pilice farm victims. Does the same theory still hold, if the number of the victims is raised to 8,000? No, if Milosevic's words were open to the interpretation that his fans would like, he should have alluded to the pathetic numbers game. By September it should have been clear to some of his entourage.
And after the Arkan explosion last week Carla realizes that something might have taken place behind her back, and starts making more or less subtle suggestions that she might (re)open the investigation into the Nato war crimes. The mess is so big that Milosevic has to catch a cold to keep him out. Even Carla is not so stupid as not to realize that the British are committing this hanky-panky to keep the Nato war crimes out of public scrutiny (and that is what the Internet amounts to pretty much these days).
If this is true at least in part, we come back to the illegality of the trial. It has been suggested that the proceedings should be annulled on the basis of fraud, and how true that would be! And indeed we may come back to the illegality of the trial or the organ, because I don't think Milosevic is prone to play by any rules. Maybe Milosevic's "Arkan" bomb took everybody by surprise. So there you go.
Of course, it is questionable to put pieces together like that. That is why the academia developed deconstruction. Such assemblage shows that one cannot tolerate contradictions.
And as to Milosevic taking credit for his defense strategy, every theory is as good as any other. Just remember that he had more than two years between his indictment and his transfer. Whatever has happened during his detention may not be the truth.
Jari Nousiainen
Finland- Friday January 17, 2003 at 3:44 am
And of that Morillon (or Morion?) character. Does it really change anything if he gave his advice to Milosevic when the safe area was being established or when it was being "liberated"? It he gave his advice back in 1992-1993, that would show the weight Milosevic had already back in 1992-1993, and that would bring his alleged powerlessness in Krajina into question.On the other hand, if Morillon had that kind of power over Milosevic, then Milosevic wouldn't be any more guilty than Morillon. The bottomline is still that there was no massacre.
Besides, the "Liberation of Srebrenica" has its problems. You shouldn't forget that Mladic did take the Dutchbat as hostages. Whatever Morillon might have said on that occasion would explain his punctured tires (courtesy Mladic). And that might even explain the eagerness with which Milosevic is trying to blame somebody else.
You would have to consult the Dutch NIOD report, really. I have the vague memory that it did say something about the French.
J N
Finland- Friday January 17, 2003 at 5:19 am
I just remembered how lax the British intelligence can sometimes be. If you have seen the film on the Canadian-born weapons constructor Gerald Bull (and supposing the film is an accurate portrayal of the events), you know that the British didn't stop the building of a massive supergun in Iraq. The British customs officials ignored the export of devices they knew were destined for the "Baby Babylon" in Iraq.This should show not only the "flexibility" of the British officials. But it should also give a hint who really was behind the building of the Iraqi WMD's (or alleged WMD's). Which in turn explains - in part - why the Brits are now making such a fuss about the (far-fetched) Bosnian Serb connection to the Iraqi weapons systems.
I came to think of these things after reading the JWR article on the beefed-up Mossad network ( http://jewishworldreview.com/0103/targeted_killings.html ). Our lives are beginning to lookin like a James Bond movie more and more every day.
J N
Finland- Friday January 17, 2003 at 8:25 am
Can anyone actually believe this?: "And this is what’s really impressive about the tribunal. Yes, it is slow. Yes it can be boring. Yes, sometimes it is wrong. But every decision, and every mistake, is eventually held up to the scrutiny of laws, which The Hague itself cannot make, but can only enforce." or how about this: "In fact, it (the tribunal) is nothing like NATO or any other international political institution - because it is consistent. " Now if you want to read the full, funny article, I suggest you go to In fact, it is nothing like NATO or any other international political institution - because it is consistent.
Dan B.
Canada- Friday January 17, 2003 at 8:27 am
http://www.iwpr.net/index.pl?archive/tri/tri_295_2_eng.txt
Dan B.
Canada- Friday January 17, 2003 at 10:58 am
Dan B.This is the concluding paragraph from the article you have referenced: "And in the end, this integrity will be its salvation: Serbs, and many others across not just the Balkans but Rwanda too, may continue to hate the tribunal. But they will, in time, also come to respect both the consistency of its decisions and the fact that every move it makes can be traced back through evidence and arguments to laws agreed on by every civilised nation - including Serbia.
Note:” Every move can be traced back through evidence!”
This fellow: Chris Stephen is IWPR Bureau Chief in The Hague.
Is either drunk or laying through his teeth!
D Jovanovic
USA- Friday January 17, 2003 at 12:11 pm
The tribunal is so surreal that is hard to know where to draw the boundaries. I am actually starting to believe that the British government might be helping Milosevic! Why would the adverserial system be so strictly observed as to pit the British government against Milosevic? None of the other legal conventions are.This is not some sudden mental disorder. I was suggesting last summer that it would be in the interests of the US to start intervening on Milosevic's behalf. Why not? If it is so dead against the newly established international justice, why not make an utter mockery of the tribunals? One way to do it is to stay behind the scenes but help the defendant anyway. OK, the help might come from Britain, but what difference does it make?
And don't tell me Milosevic wouldn't have use for some help! If the old guard is to believed, he will have his supporters pitted against an enemy while making deals with it.
No, Milosevic is telling the truth. Suppose some government is helping Milosevic. Would it not be nice for it to be revealed as the secret benefactor on behalf of the truth? If the assistance is revealed, what has it to lose? The only loser is Milosevic, who would be discredited as a double-faced narcissist. And his supporters are so exhausted by then that they will be glad to forget about indicting Nato.
J N
Finland- Friday January 17, 2003 at 12:24 pm
Or...if you don't believe that you may believe one of two things: 1) the tribunal is the pinnacle of legal thinking, or 2) Milosevic has some psychic gifts that make it possible to read people's minds and reveal their identities. And by the same token, he has never ever erred during his career.For the Brits and Americans it matters only that Slobo stays out of power and that their own nationals won't end up in international tribunals. Well, Slobo enjoys being in The Hague, so the way to make him shut up in Serbia is to let him talk in The Hague. By then the tribunals are so badly discredited that no-one would take an indictment of an American or a Brit seriously. And once Milosevic is proven right, his supporters (like us) are so thankful that we will forget about the subversion and the bombing. Sure, Slobo will be convicted, but no-one will know where he will be and what kind of life he will lead. He won't be kept in The Hague for ever, you know.
And then there are some interest groups that want to keep us pitted against the system. Ladies and gentlemen, we have won. Everybody who is sane enough to believe the IWPR is with us. Anthony D'Amato is with us. I guess the better part of the governments are with us. In the meantime, the only boundaries for the process in The Hague are set by our own imagination.
Jari Nousiainen
Finland- Friday January 17, 2003 at 12:26 pm
I should have said: everybody who is sane not to believe the IWPR is with us.
J N
Finland- Friday January 17, 2003 at 12:27 pm
The hard week has taken its toll. HMTL correction.
J N
Finland- Friday January 17, 2003 at 12:52 pm
Pinted to article: http://www.iwpr.net/index.pl?archive/tri/tri_295_2_eng.txt
Dan B Thanks for posting this laughable fairy tale.
The ICTY is organ of the Security Council. As such, its main task is to protect international laws and treaties especially ones broth into being by the United Nations. The root cause of war crimes in Former Yugoslavia is that when it came to its dismemberment none of these treaties and laws were followed. If we are ever to have civilized world the ICTY had to establish first who is most responsible for the unlawful destruction of Former Yugoslavia and why the international treaties and essetial laws such as the constitution of Yugoslavia were ignored. By accepting rights of Slovenia, Croatia and Bosina to unilaterally proclaim independence contrary to the Former Yugoslavia Constitution established Yugoslav state organs responsible to impose law and order were disabled and made powerless. As a consequence the state of lawlessness was established and the crimes happened. Compared to the root cause crime, crimes that followed are just unfortunate consequence. Failure to prosecute this root cause crime is the biggest failure of the ICTY.
When it comes to bombing of Yugoslavia the root cause crime is that NATO has bombed Yugoslavia without obtaining approval of the Security Council, everything else is a consequence of it.
In order to prosecute these two root crimes, committed by the New World Order Masters, the ICTY does not need help of any government, if the laughable assumption from the pointed to article is correct i.e.:" In fact, Arbour’s template announced several years ago remains the watchword - The Hague’s power stems not from having tanks or planes or paramilitary gangs or economic might, but from following laws"
It looks to me that the author of the pointed to article is questioning the civility of Serbian society until Serbia accepts rulings of the ICTY. As a Serb I can assure you that there is much more civility in nowadays Serbia which is multi ethnic than in Croatia, Bosnia and Kosovo run by the puppet regimes of the New World Order Masters or the New World Order Masters themselves. As a Canadian I would never agree that such a monster like ICTY starts muddling into Canadian internal affairs. In the context of the international laws and treaties the civility means respect of the international laws, treaties and the UN as such and not unilateral military interventions in order to impose strategic interests of the New World Order Masters in the name of the civility. In this respect there is no civility in the Western Countries that supported and have taken an active role in illegal dismemberment of Former Yugoslavia or bombing of Yugoslavia.
Pera Bora
Ottawa
Canada- Friday January 17, 2003 at 2:12 pm
Considering the United States is involved in the creation of two new ICT's one in Cambodia and another in Iraq it is hard to see how they can avoid supporting the ICTY. I suppose the great maneuver is to undercut the ICC when it comes in full swing never soon enough.
Why Cambodia? Obviously the Cambodians themselves have plenty of grievances against the good old USA and some of her very illustrious figures but this will be kept in check as long as the US reminds them of the hineous crimes of the Khmer Rouge.
Rwanda? Well, it is a well known fact the western media knows next to nothing about African politics never mind history, this obscure subject is left to a few specialists at the Foreign Office, Quai d'Orsay, and the confusing misnamed and ironically lead by an African American State Department. If we could only hear a story teller from Rwanda telling us the involvement of the French and their new African competitors the Americans in full African swing now that their Apartheid friends are on the retreat. If we could only hear who set up, like in Yugoslavia, who pit Hutus and Tutsis into a fratricidal war, then we will understand this keen interest the Western world has on Tikali and its ICTR under the same prosecutorial skills of Madame del Ponte. She knows little about Yugoslavia, but does she knows anything about the heart of Africa? Did she read Heart of Darkness to get out of the dark or she is totally submerged in the black sea of ignorance?
The ICC is drawing heavily from the ICTY, this is not a good development at least in appearance since the ICC needs good forceful leadership and not the crowd of bureaucrats of Kafka's The Trial , but politically it may have some significance, only if could be more informed about the current states of affairs at the ICC. Since it is not about war the IWPR will not tell and I am afraid supporters of international justice, whether fakes or real are not telling neither.
Ramsey Clark is an old man, he did his best and I am sure he deserves much admiration as his French counter part Vergès who is not young neither. Now, who is next? Who carries the torch forward? Who denounces the NWO, imperialism, neo colonialism, exploitation, despotism, war, hunger, disease, and the four proverbial raiders of the Apocalypses always reappearing, were is the progressive philosophy that will save us as specie and as humans?
Gogol Charlemagne
Conn. USA- Friday January 17, 2003 at 2:56 pm
The IWPR has a new topic, latest, latest, read all about it is BELARUS!
How long before the Ukraine is next? Any bets?
Gogol Charlemagne
Conn. USA- Friday January 17, 2003 at 2:59 pm
Ha,Ha,ha, ha,!!!!
Crucially, we are seeking the participation of journalists working in both the state and non-state press. Similarly, we encourage editors of all print media to freely republish the stories we publish. In helping to depoliticise the media, we hope to encourage improved relations between journalists and public figures based on professionalism and mutual respect. Increased journalistic access throughout political and public life, will in the long term, improve the accuracy and objectivity of information disseminated to the Belarusian public.
The wolf in sheep's skins!
Gogol Charlemagne
Conn. USA- Friday January 17, 2003 at 3:02 pm
And. . .
As we publish this first issue, so next week will see our first two-day practical training seminar being held in Minsk. We are indebted to the Human Rights Policy Department of the British Foreign & Commonwealth Office for its support. The project is currently scheduled to run until May - but will be continued beyond if new funding is secured.
Need to say more?
Cogol Charlemagne
Conn. USA- Friday January 17, 2003 at 4:47 pm
The Diet of Worms 1521The most powerful monarch on earth at that time was Charles V of Spain. His territories spread throughout Europe and the Americas. He was determined to create a worldwide and united empire from which no one could dissent. Charles V called his meeting, or Diet, for which he invited to Worms the most important secular rulers in Europe. His purpose was to put down dissent.
It was common for the medieval philosophers of that time, who escorted their rulers, to discuss such problems as ‘How many Angels can dance on the head of a pin’. I read long ago that this was one of the topics discussed at Worms.
The Can of Worms 2003
The most powerful alliance on earth at this time is that of Blair/Bush. In fact you may say Blair/Any US President. The alliance is determined to create a worldwide and united empire from which no one can dissent. The alliance has called meetings of the Security Council which includes the most important secular rulers in Europe and the Americas. The purpose is to put down dissent.
Because weapons inspectors have found eleven empty artillery rocket cases: A topic of a “troubling and serious” nature is taxing the philosophists of the day: ‘How many empty 122 millimetre rocket cases constitute a reason for obliterating Iraq’. Of particular note is the gravitas of the meetings today of Blair and Chirac with Hans Blix, the Chief Weapons Inspector. Meanwhile we are all expected to cower with fear in case Iraq, a fifth-rate military power according many US commentators, might deign to launch these empty shell cases to no effect.
Plus ca change, plus c’est la meme chose.
These primitive, unguided and inaccurate artillery rocket shell cases, these so called empty “War Heads”, that empty-heads call “Weapons of Mass Destruction” have a range of some 20 Km and a payload of 10 Kg. They are usually fired in barrages of 40 rockets. Soddem Hussein has some way to go before he can deliver even one salvo - of fresh air.
These empty shell cases were approved by the west when they were delivered to Iraq10 to 20 years ago along with UK manufactured parts for Bull’s super-gun. The chemical and biological contents, or the means of making them, were then provided by the west and Hussein was encouraged to fire them at the Iranians in order to curb their dissent of that time.
Blair went into his Messianic rant mode again yesterday in the commons as he boosted Soddem to the level of Devil Incarnate, destroyer general of world peace. It is one of his stock-in-trade acts such as his portrayal of sincerity which he invokes form time to time and which allows him it get away with whoppers like ‘Tens of thousands of Kosovars slaughtered by Serb security Forces’. When Blair stops his acts he might pause to contemplate that the Mujahedin and al-Qaeda elements that he supported in Kosovo four years ago, recently revealed by the BBC, are still there - occasionally still doing their dirty deeds as evidenced across the border in Macedonia. He might also contemplate the nightmare which is Kosovo wrought by his cluster-bombing intervention. And the havoc being brought to UK cities by these ungrateful thugs who bring drugs and prostitution, murder our police - as they did in Kosovo - while they prepare to poison us all with Ricin.
Peter Taylor
Herts/UK- Friday January 17, 2003 at 6:20 pm
Hidden news:
Supporters of Milosevic said on Friday they had won agreement from the tribunal that Yugoslav doctors would be able to examine him. Milosevic's trial has been interrupted several times due to the defendant's bouts of ill health.
"After negotiations with the prosecution that have been going on since last November, the Yugoslav medical team has finally got permission to examine Milosevic," said Vladimir Krsljanin, a member of a committee urging Milosevic's release.
The three-member team from Belgrade's Military Hospital should see Milosevic for a day next Thursday or Friday, he said.
Click HERE for more.
Gogol Charlemagne
Conn. USA- Friday January 17, 2003 at 8:20 pm
When I read that article I asked myself "How can anyone write such stuff?" and one has to come to one conlusion: It simply must be a person that completely out of touch with any form of truth and reality.
Dan B.
Canada- Friday January 17, 2003 at 9:56 pm
jn..What is this MI6 theory of yours?
Are they all involved and aware of it? (May, Kay and Nice I mean)
I must admit it is a suggestive thought. The witness Lazarevic for one was too good to be true in several aspects. At first it seemed as he was revealed by Milosevic as a mythomanic. But then again it seemed that it had just been too easy to expose him. He definitly had a role to play but which ?
I do think that one purpose of the trial, important not only to Milosevic, is what the official Balkan history should be for the future history books and TV-documentaries. The blame perhaps should be a little scattered around on a few others except the serbs and Milosevic. Not too much of course.
One thing one can be sure of is that the truth very seldom lies where you are led to believe. But whatever conspiracy you come up with, probably also is wrong because it is never as simple as a 'joint criminal enterprise'. Even within the powers behind the conspiracy there are different aims and goals and further conspiracy. And the best cooperators to the instigators are not aware that they are manipulated into being that. So what about May, Kay and Nice?
Isn't it by the way likely that Milosevic really just has a cold and fever? (that old prison is probably cold, remember it is in Holland)
Ann-Marie Laios
Sollentuna
Sweden- Friday January 17, 2003 at 11:13 pm
You shouldn't forget that Mladic did take the Dutchbat as hostages.not hostages
Hostages is the language of HumWarrior agit-prop.........since they were members of a Army which was attacking the BSA, Gen Mladic made them POW's. They were simple prisoners, treated decently and released when hostilites ended between their Army and the BSA.
this forum shouldn't be parroting HumWarrior agit-prop.
AP V
NY
NY- Friday January 17, 2003 at 11:18 pm
Dan BPlease make an argument for this tribunal. Use moral high ground, leagle precedant, or even that Carla is sexy, but do not simply say that someone is out of touch. Please stay with the forum.
I love fresh meat.
Pertti Lindroos
Quesnel
BC Canada- Saturday January 18, 2003 at 1:41 am
One wonders where the "other side" is getting all these witnesses from! They're secret witnesses from the public point of view and they mostly seem to have been in trouble with the law for whatever illegalities they've committed AND they seem to have never been in the right place at the right time but had HEARD of things from their mates or from tavern debates. The last witness, although not a criminal escapee, suggested that "20 brave men" saved Dubrovnik from the Yu Army. Hmmm...I thought the Kosovo part was already a laugh, but this Croatia/Bosnia part is pretty close to outdoing it.
At this stage what bothers me even more than the injustice of the ICTY is the implicit assumption by the Masters of the NWO that we are all a bunch of fools.
As for the IWPR, they must be tuned to a different channel or they're all on drugs. Their analysis simply has NOTHING to do with Milosevic's trial. Maybe they have their own translators LOL.
David D
Australia- Saturday January 18, 2003 at 2:00 am
Peter TaylorAt this stage it suits Blair and Co to import problem "migrants" who have little respect for law and order. They provide an excuse for a crackdown on a law and order basis which will erode the traditional freedoms we've enjoyed in the West. Now that Communism is gone the Globalists can get back to business and control the people even further. There will be little resistance as the gun control laws, anti-terrorist laws, etc., are going to ensure not our safety but Blair's safety when the people really wake up to whom he is really serving. If they were really serious about terrorism, they never would have backed the KLA, the Mujahideen or Bin Laden's thugs whom they so lavishly funded.
Milosevic's trial is simply meant to formally register and record for the benefit of today's and tomorrow's sheeple (sheep/people) a historical smoke screen over what was really happening... forced take-over of YU assets on a massive scale, by hook or by crook. If you're not with them, you're against them. Now who said that recently?
David
Australia- Saturday January 18, 2003 at 4:16 am
Ann-Marie, I agree with you, no "conspiracy theory" is perfect either. My "theory" is based on zero evidence, but as long as it seems to fit in, I think it should be put forward here so that we won't exclude any option.I don't know who is in it and who knows about it (or how much). Nice seems sometimes too surprised to be aware of it (or at least all of it). Maybe he prefers not to be told too much. I think Kay and May were mentioned by name, and I think May is taking too many things for granted not to be involved.
About Kay, it must be said that he was a "real" attorney in the first ICTY judgment, Tadic (together with Wladimiroff). But he was mentioned by name as a MI6 agent in William Spring's letter to Richard May (which DS quoted on January 15 above).
And then the big question is, what does Milosevic know? It is possible that the British thought "if you can't win him, join him". That way you can at least feed with the informational some disinformation. And not all of his lawyers are that reliable. Heck, how should I know?
But Milosevic has a mind of its own, and I believe many would just love to see him dead. The trouble is that it can't be made to look natural. So you had to add a few colds for the effect. By the way, it wasn't me that saw something suspicious in Milosevic's colds. It was that SOB Mirko Klarin months ago, only, he wanted to argue that this is another sign Milosevic is under pressure: he falls "miraculously" ill (or maybe the word was "mysteriously"). So see who came up with the conspiracy theories first! None of us can think of anything worse than the lies we have been treated with!
But let's call them tell-tale signs. In the WSJ article it was said that Milosevic makes mistakes. An example? The article had to go back to the Kosovo stage! And I think we agree that the WSJ knows more than it says. After the Kosovo stage, Milosevic has become good, indeed too good.
Then another tell-tale sign. There is the testimony of Albright. As I said, she could have listed all the war crimes committed by the US and got a standing ovation from the public for being honest. She said with the kind of resignation that was likely meant to be shared: "We made mistakes." I didn't see her myself, but I can almost hear the suggestion: "We made mistakes, but look around you, is this the kind of trial you want us to go through?" So the US government knows perfectly well what is happening. Would the officials be worth their salt if it didn't? The trial is not going as planned, but they are still trying to make the most of it: now the trial is used a warning example of what happens to those who want to prosecute war criminals. (It used to be a warning example to those who committed war crimes!)
But be that as it may, the trial is toast. Carla may utter her threats to those she has failed to indict, but the longer she refuses to call it quits, the more of an accomplice she becomes.
Would somebody give me an expose on the HumWarriors and their agit-prop? So the Dutchbat was attacking the BSA? That explains why Mladic took peacekeepers as prisoners of war? That shows he didn't intend to avert the impending bombing, if he was aware of it in the first place? No, I think there was no Srebrenica massacre, but Milosevic is trying to shift the blame somewhere else, because if he is shown to have command responsility, that makes his case too difficult (and too personal). It would be all the more difficult to prove that there was no massacre (at least not the way the prosecution expects).
And if the French staged the Serbs as murderers, how were they to do that? Did they hire Serb mercenaries? Well, then the Serbs committed the massacre. The only question is who had the command responsibility, and I think it is here that Milosevic has something to hide. Was it enough to use Serbs? Or did they use stolen BSA uniforms? Or was it enough for them to use the Serb language? But you know, the Serbs use the same language as the Bosnians. Maybe Milosevic has a good explanation, but my point is that he had better have.
Jari Nousiainen
Finland- Saturday January 18, 2003 at 5:33 am
We are told that Milosevic knows the identities of the protected witnesses. Maybe the identities of the protected witnesses are to be revealed to the defendant pursuant to some article in the Rules of Procedure. But I really doubt that. I thought the idea of the protected witnesses was to hide the identity of the witness to save him from the defendant's reprisals. It was said that it is is the secret sessions that are to conceal the identity of the witness; the idea of the witness protection is to guard the public order. Wait a minute, I thought it was the other way around. And whatever your opinion of Vergès, would he make a fool of himself by going public with his criticisms of the protected witnesses on the assumption that their identities remain sealed for the defendant? Yes, the defense may be justified in finding out about the protected witnesses, because they shouldn't be used at all, but the question is where it gets its information. Are the Serbs hacking into the ICTY computers? Some of the knowledge can be explained by the closely-knit social network, but not the advance knowledge nor the details of the protection programmes themselves, which some of the info seems to rely on.What was the original point of the tribunal? The big powers now realize that it is against their national interests. The little powers may expect the international legal order to protect their interests against the big powers on the basis of the docrine of sovereign equality, which is why they support such international institutional like the ICTY, but you need not look any further than the ICTY to see how the doctrine of sovereign equality is trampled under foot in the international institutions. By the "big powers" I mean those who have a special intelligence network, which shows they were not interested in international law to begin with.
Then the inescapable word of Iraq. The documents presented by the Brits and the Americans supposedly substantiating an Iraqi WMD programme are of course laughable. But considering how far and how deep their own arms cooperation with Iraq goes, they may indeed know something that they don't want us to know. Maybe their determination is real.
J N
Finland- Saturday January 18, 2003 at 6:23 am
Jari,
The Americans were very unhappy with the dual key approach to any action in Bosnia-Hercegovina, it deprived them of their initiative and above all of the possibility of using force which meant bringing in NATO and chasing out as always any UNO collective, consensual action. Under these circumstances it is not hard to imagine the US will use as they did any excuse to get the UN deployment out of BiH. Richard Holbrooke said in a radio interview happy about Dayton on 21 November 1995:
ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: Can you say anything now about what you would say, since this is clearly under debate right now?
And in October 30 1995, before Dayton being a reality he is happy to boast about the reconstructions of events by the journalists helping to work for peace:SEC. HOLBROOKE: Of course, of course. Peace in the region is essential to all of Europe. European stability is essential to the United States. United States leadership in Europe is essential to our national interests. You can draw the syllogism out any way you want.
ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: And under the agreement, what would those troops be doing? Is it spelled out clearly in the agreement, what they'd be doing?
SEC. HOLBROOKE: I'm sorry. I didn't get the question.
ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: Under the agreement, what would the troops be doing? Is it spelled out clearly in the agreement?
SEC. HOLBROOKE: Word for word in a document hammered out by our military team here led by Gen. Clark and assisted by all the NATO countries back-stopped in Brussels.
ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: Can you summarize for us. I know that you're very tired, and it's difficult, and technical, but would you try, please.
SEC. HOLBROOKE: To summarize it?
ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: Yes, what the U.S.--
SEC. HOLBROOKE: The commander--I'm sorry, there's something beeping in my ear, Elizabeth, so I'm having trouble getting all the questions, but the answer to your question, if I understood it correctly, is that the commanders will use whatever means are necessary to protect their forces and carry out the military provisions of the agreement. There is no restrain on them. We're not going to go in the way the UN went in with political authorities and dual keys and all that garbage which constrained the UN and led to such a tragedy.
CHARLAYNE HUNTER-GAULT: What about press reports this weekend about the massacres in Srebrenica? We've all known about those massacres, but now, the window has been opened even wider on some of the atrocities there. How are press reports of this going to affect these negotiations, do you think, and probably the inevitable calls for punishment of war criminals?
Here you have it, Holbrooke as diplomatic as a bull in a porcelain shop can't stop boasting about their methods of using press reconstructions of a massacre to achieve his peace, chase UNO out and bring NATO in. Then 4 years later as Paddy told the ICTY in his testimony, ambassador Walker told Richard Holbrooke over the phone "Ricky you better forget about your Peace Nobel prize, something horrible has happened here". He was in Kosovo in the aftermath of Racak, another obvious journalistic reconstructionSEC. HOLBROOKE: Well, as you, yourself, just said, we've known for a long time that a war atrocity of historic proportions took place in Srebrenica in July. We've known this. We've taken action on it. We cooperated with the journalists who wrote these brilliant reconstructions. They've added detail to what we already knew. But I want to be clear that they only accentuate the need to push forward towards a peace settlement. There are people still alive whose lives are at risk. Asst. Sec. John Shattuck has made three trips to the area wearing his portfolio as Assistant Sec. for Human Rights and met with President Izetbegovic and President Milosevic and other officials in the last few weeks trying to get people who are still missing in the area East of Banja Luka to be accounted for. We're working on prisoner releases. We're working on--
CHARLAYNE HUNTER-GAULT: But can you--
SEC. HOLBROOKE: --finding out what happened. And we are going to continue to push on this.
CHARLAYNE HUNTER-GAULT: Can you get a peace plan in these negotiations without dealing with the war criminal issue?
SEC. HOLBROOKE: We are dealing with the war criminal issue. We are not having any indicted war criminals as part of delegations coming here. If they wanted to come here, they'd be arrested when they landed, and we are not going to in any way compromise the pursuit of indicted war criminals.
A few more comments:
When Mr. Milosevic made his accusations allegations about the French there was no noticeable reaction from the court. Judge May (NATO) always jumpy about "broad allegations" kept silent, I found that very telling. The notion that French agents and troops were involved did not surprised him a bit.
Of course Mr. Milosevic and his associates do know who the secret witnesses are. The rules of the ICTY are so that the identity of the witnesses is disclosed to the trial camber including the defendant, the accused. Remember on one occasion both Mr. Milosevic and judge May (NATO) calling the secret witness by his name a day later the witness made himself public. They may be secret to some Joe in Holland or in Chicago, or perhaps even in Slovenia but not for many in Serbia, Montenegro, Bosnia since it is the living soul of the region which is at stake. A public figure who had served in various public capacities in Serbia and Yugoslavia happens to know much about events, people, locations, and dates. Not all politicians are as aloof as Donald Reagan!
Gogol Charlemagne
Conn. USA- Saturday January 18, 2003 at 6:38 am
Gogol, thanks for quoting those in full. I had that feeling I had written something myself (!) on the identities of the secret witnesses revealed to the defendant. However, this thing about the secret witnesses was an afterthought, and it had nothing to do with how I arrived at my conspiracy theory. The whole thing started from the allegations about the French in general, Morillon and Vergès in particular. If we are after the truth, why tell lies about them?
Jari Nousiainen
Finland- Saturday January 18, 2003 at 6:42 am
On the other hand, was Vergès wrong after all to criticize the secret witnesses?
J N
Finland- Saturday January 18, 2003 at 6:55 am
I thing the DW tape is worth what it is worth, not much. The idea of secret witnesses is really to protect the witnesses, in fact that is what it is called by the ICTY. The problem is that this procedure favorable to the prosecutor has and is being abused by them. Mr. Milosevic has repeatedly denounce the fact it is much harder to prepare the cross-examination of a protected witness since his name can't be disclosed during the investigation process. A few times after all the effort to keep the identity secret, Nice (NATO) drops the secret status right on the day the witness is introduced to the chamber!
This is pure abuse ill intentioned by the part of the prosecutor Mr. Milosevic will exclaim to be contradicted by judge May (NATO).
I have the impression this is what Vergès is referring to, besides public trials have to have openness and protection a form of is bias.
Gogol Charlemagne
Conn. USA- Saturday January 18, 2003 at 7:46 am
I forgot: the key to the Bosnian mistery if there is one lies with the two conveniently excluded indicted war criminals nowhere to be found. There you may have a point Jary: who is avoiding them or who is avoiding their arrest especially when they ware reported to be in BiH under the nose of NATO, now of course the blame is on the VJ which the ICTY prosecutor has avoided like the plague.
I got to go, it is -17º C here this morning and the peace marches are building pace.
P e a c e !
Gogol Charlemagne
Conn. USA- Saturday January 18, 2003 at 4:25 pm
Further on about Verges, MI6, secret witnesses, etc. Pls., use Google search engine for details.
The first publicly known Western plan to assassinate President Milosevic was drafted in 1992. Richard Tomlinson, a former British MI6 employee, later disclosed the plan. His task as an MI6 agent was to carry out undercover operations in Eastern Europe posing as a businessman or journalist. Tomlinson frequently met with MI6 officer Nick Fishwick. During one of their meetings, Fishwick showed Tomlinson a document entitled, "The Need to Assassinate President Milosevic of Serbia." […]
Jonathan Eyal, an advisor to the British government, commented at the time, "I can't say when it will happen, but I can guarantee that Milosevic will end up dead, and he will be followed by a more pro-Western government." […]
If MI6 was actively involved in several attempts to assassinate Milosevic and his overthrow, then it make sense that they are interested very much to burry him in The Hague. So much for British and their respect for international law.
French seem to be involved as much as British. In November 1999, members of an assassination squad, code-named "Spider," were arrested in Yugoslavia. According to Minister Goran Matic, "French intelligence was behind" the Spider group, whose aim was the assassination of President Milosevic. Planned scenarios included a sniper attack, planting an explosive device alongside a route they expected Milosevic to travel, planting an explosive in his car, and organizing 10 trained commandos to storm the presidential residence.
The leader of the group, Jugoslav Petrusic, had dual Yugoslav and French citizenship. Matic claimed that Petrusic worked for French intelligence for ten years. During interrogations, Petrusic said that he had killed 50 men on orders by French intelligence. Matic announced that one of the members of Spider was a "specialist for killings with a truck full of sand" - the same method used against Vuk Draskovic the previous month. Also, Petrusic is implicated as a leader of the French mercenaries team that Milosevic accused for Srebrenica. […]
Yugoslav secret service sources revealed that the Spider group trained at NATO bases in Bosnia where "buildings resembling those where Milosevic lives were constructed." Money from the French intelligence service for Spider was brought to the border between Hungary and Yugoslavia by a man named Slobodan "Serge" Lazarevic ("secret" witness from The Hague(!?)).
One of the first steps Quisling government in Belgrade took after taking over the power was to acquit Spider members. Must have been an important issue. Serb court clears five of spying for France
The Balkans is a strange place: Nothing is what it seems to be.
D S
USA- Saturday January 18, 2003 at 4:31 pm
Correction.... If HTML links don't work go to: http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/europe/9911/25/yugo.plot/#2 http://www.cnn.com/2000/WORLD/europe/11/13/yugoslavia.trial/
D S
USA- Saturday January 18, 2003 at 5:20 pm
DS thanks, good stuff.
Pera Bora
Ottawa
Canada- Saturday January 18, 2003 at 10:56 pm
Jari,I am perplexed. Why on Earth did you bring up Jared Israel? I read Mr. Israel's website and he has never once mentioned Verges. So how is it that you find yourself in a position to tell me what Mr. Israel might think about Mr. Verges? I find that rather odd.
Secondly, Tiphane Dickson is not Slobodan Milosevic's lawyer and nobody ever said she was. She is the ICDSM's lawyer - SHE IS NOT MILOSEVIC'S LAWYER.
It's funny how you brought up Israel Shamir to attack Jared Israel for no obvious purpose. I am the one who called Verges a fascist, and I am the one who said that Verges was a political liability. How do you figure Jared Israel into any of that?
Equally strange is your contention that Slobodan Milosevic would have something to hide. Why are you attacking him all of the sudden?
Please explain yourself.
Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States - Thursday January 16, 2003 at 2:30 pm