 MILOSEVIC TRIAL DISCUSSION ARCHIVE |
| JURIST >> LEGAL NEWS - WORLD LAW >> Discussion >> Milosevic Trial Discussion Archive |
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Former Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic is on trial for war crimes in the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia at The Hague. This marks the first time a head of state has been personally prosecuted before an international criminal court.
Is Slobodan Milosevic getting a fair trial?
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- discussion archive
- Sunday January 18, 2004 at 5:25 am
http://www.bhhrg.org/LatestNews.asp?ArticleID=24
TO MUCH BULL START ACTING
NOW!!!! - Sunday January 18, 2004 at 6:55 am
Rabid Serb:Is it possible that your list of killed and kidnapped children in Kosovo is incomplete?
I seem to remenber a report that an eleven year old girl was raped and murdered by US Sergeant Rhongi and that many many children have been killed and injured by Clinton and Blair's cluster bombs?
Peter Taylor
Herts/UK - Sunday January 18, 2004 at 7:12 am
David Oztralia,I was against sending Milosevic to Hague, I thought that our courts are ones that should judge him. However, after two years of ICTY I am glad that he is there because now me as a Serb know without any doubt what kind of crap they have as evidence. When it came down to producing a "smoking gun" that would without any doubt label Serbs in this war as guilty, they failed partly because Nice and Karla are incompetent but mostly 90% because Serbs did not start this war. Actually I think Serbs were caught unready judging by not uniting Serbian immigration, paying lawyers and PR campaign. That alone clears Serbian collective conscience. As for idiots as Arkan - in every war there are opportunists and robbers. I would like seeing them being charged and sentenced under military law as you are dead because you killed and stolen.
Walter Trkla - you are right, I’ll try to be good even it is hard sometimes:)
Dakic Ana
Serbia - Sunday January 18, 2004 at 8:06 am
Serjoe: Here are a few links related to the bombing of NisCivilian casualties of Nato bombs:
http://www.iacenter.org/warcrime/sladjana.htmCivilian massacres:
http://www.warfacts.org.yu/massacres/nis.htmlFifteen dead, twenty seriously injured of a total of sixty in Nis:
Why the UN bans the use of cluster bombs over civilian areasThe bombing of Nis with cluster bombs is a prime example of Nato’s war crimes and in particular of Blair’s warmongering.
Although Nato claims Nis was an accident this is discounted by pilots of the Spanish air force who were first ordered to undertake the mission and reused to do so on the grounds that it would be a war crime. See the evidence of Captain de la Hoz.
I want to tell it to the whole world: once there was a coded order from the North American military that we should drop anti-personnel bombs over the localities of Prishtine (Pristina) and Nish (Nis). The colonel refused it altogether and, a couple of days later, the transfer order came.
The Spanish pilots were returned to Spain. Casualties were caused in a hospital, a market place and many residential homes. Was this the work of the USAF or the RAF?
In spite of public alarm at Nato’s atrocities Blair threatened to continue to bomb Serbia until Milosevic accepted the Rambouillet ultimatum. Simply because Blair claimed he and Nato could not afford to lose face. This self styled humanitarian, this sickening duplicitous megalomaniac, declared he was prepared to go on killing and maiming Serb civilians to save face: and all this in support of al-Qaeda backed terrorists! Note the love-in embrace photo of the two war criminals Blair and Thaci. Also after the international outcry over the Nis casualties the USAF and other air forces stopped deploying them in Serbia with the exception of Britain. Under supreme commander Blair the RAF continued to deploy cluster bombs after the strikes on Nis. Also note these so-called anti racists did not hesitate to resume the use cluster bomb weapons against the Iraqis? At least - as far as the US is concerned but not Blair - the Serbs are less sub-human than the Iraqis.
One final point: observe the bias in this court. The KLA leadership has boasted of its deliberate targeting of civilians. There is evidence that Nato leaders deliberately ignored warnings that its attacks would lead to civilian casualties. Milosevic is on trial at the Hague when there is absolutely no evidence that Serb forces were ordered to attack civilians. If Nato may acclaim, in spite of the evidence to the contrary, that casualties of its bombs were the result of accidents why may not the Serb High Command. If the KLA leaders are not called to The Hague to account for their self-proclaimed targeting of civilians why are the Serb leaders in The Hague to account for casualties caused in a war against al-Qaeda backed Islamist terror?
Definitely one final point: The myth of 500 deaths due to Nato bombs is peddled repeatedly. More than 500 were killed in Kosovo alone by Nato bombs: some 400 in just 5 raids: Two refugee convoys, repeated attacks on the prison at Istok and two coaches.
Peter Taylor
Herts/UK- Sunday January 18, 2004 at 8:31 am
Wesley Clark should also be in the Hague, if it was a truly fair tribunal. Since Americans rejected trying their own soldiers in an international court, however, its not surprising....Andy, I'll give you a couple of examples of hate propaganda against Jews in 1937 by Patriah Varnava (Petar Rosic), who was the head of the Serbian Orthodox Church since 1930 and Bishop Nikolaj Velimirovic in 1944 and 1992.
Patriarch Varnava: "Jews are representives of Masonry, Jews are representatives of capitalism, and Jews are representatives of proletariat revolution. There are no differences between them in their outlook on the world. They are essentially only Jews and nothing else. The Jews are representatives and preachers against private property--for the rest of the world, while they fill their own safe boxes and suitcases with money. They are internationalists for the rest of the world, but they aid only their fellow tribesman. Thus, the enemy is as sly as a serpent and appears in several forms. This is why he is dangerous"
Bishop Velimirovic in 1944: "Today (Europe) is the main battlefield of the Jew and the Jew's father, the devil, against the Heavenly Father and against his Only-Begotten Son...(The Jews) need first to become legally equal with Christians, in order afterwards to suppress Christianity and to turn Christians into atheists and to step on our necks. All the modern European slogans were composed by Jews, who crucified Christ: democracy, strikes, socialism, atheism, tolerance of all faiths, pacifism, universal revolution, capitalism and communism...All this is done with the intention of debasing Christ, of destroying Christ...You should think about this, Serbian brethren, and accordingly you should correct....your thoughts, desires and needs" (Velimirovic, 1985, pp. 161-162 in "The Life of St. Sava")
November 1941, priest Dusan Popovic said the following: "We have been betrayed and sold out. The worm of betrayal and corruption embodied by Freemasonry and Judaism has penetrated the core of Yugoslavia" (Obnova, Belgrade, December 1, 1941, p. 1)
January 30th, 1942, Metropolitan Josif prohibited conversions of Jews to Serbian Orthodoxy (Glasnik Srpske pravoslavne crkve, Belgrade, March 1, 1942, p .12).
Bishop Velimirovic's sermon, May 31st, 1992, broadcast on Cleveland Public Radio: "There are events in the history of the human race, which, like a great bell, ring every day in the ears of those who are not deaf and summon their conscience to alarm. One such event, which for thousands of years has disturbed the human conscience, is the narrower choice between Jesus Christ and Varavvas, or Barabbas, as the Western heretics (Catholics and Protestants) pronounce it". For the complete sermon, see Velimirovic (1985) pp. 33-34 in "Life of St. Sava".
January 15, 1992 in the issue of Pravoslavlje, there was an article entitled "Jevreji ponovo raspinju Hrista" (The Jews are Crucifying Christ Again).
Ryan Mircic
St.Albans
UK- Sunday January 18, 2004 at 8:47 am
Thanks Peter, I think it would be very usefull to organize this material as a documented response to usual claims: Which link would you pick from web to counter these ones:1.) Planned Milosevic's Great Serbia.
2.)more than 1000.000 killed,wounded and mutilated by Serbs in Bosnia.
3.)60.000 raped women in Bosnia in special serbian "rape camps"
4.)4 milions refugee in Bosnia.
Such "informations" are still circulating in Italy.
Serjoe b
italy- Sunday January 18, 2004 at 8:50 am
HTML Correction
Hopefully - Sunday January 18, 2004 at 8:31 am
- Sunday January 18, 2004 at 8:53 am
Jesus Christ himself called Jews "sons of devil" you can find this cite in the Bible itself(if you want to bother to have a look into it). He of all knew them best. Jews prepared Communist, Marxist and other "ist' teachings but they never introduced teachings like these in their country or America where they are most numerous and hold top positions in politics, film industry, business and so on. Jews were leaders of October revolution in Russia 1917. They held top positions and were decision-mekers. Lenin was paid by a banker Rockfeller (or Rotchield), Jew, of course, to induce revolution in Russia. He arrived at Russia in sealed train with 5 million dollars in his pocket given by this banker and he started the journey, suprise,suprise, from America. Jews mold politics in America where it is more common to have jewish religious symbols than christian cross. So there must be some truth that they have a lot to do with fate of many nations, among others our, Serbian.
Svetlana Vugdelic
Bar
Srbija-Crna Gora - Sunday January 18, 2004 at 9:04 am
RayanThe quotes from WWII I do not except as a true statement of Serbian Church due to fact that our Patriarch Gavrilo Dozic that was a leader of the church in that period was prisoner of Dachau Concentration Camp - sent there by Germans. So If some low level idiotic priest expresses his opinion either by force or plain stupidity that is not the fault of church. Let me also remind you that at the same period numerous priests from SOC fought with partisans against Nazi like pop Vlada Zecevic and many more - known by having cross and red star on their hats.
Dakic Ana
Serbia - Sunday January 18, 2004 at 9:15 am
P.S. Were those statements made at the same time when Germans executed 100 Serbs for each killed German soldger. Let me remind you: Kraljevo, Kragujevac, Gornji Milanovac burned to the ground, Cacak, Serbs being sent to Norway as a prisoners to work in work camps, bodies hanging on Terazije/Belgrade "About a year before Yugoslavia was attacked by Germany, by pressure from the Reich and in their attempt to suit their policy to the dictators, the Tsvetkovich-Machek Government passed the first anti-Semitic measure in Yugoslavia. The Government was not unanonimous on this point. Dr. Koroshets, leader of the Slovenes, upheld the measure as Minister of Education. Serbian cabinet ministers, however, induding the Minister of War, refused to apply the act. The application of it was confined to the Ministry of Education, under the Slovene Dr. Koroshets, and the Ministry of Trade and Industry, under the Croat Dr. Andres."In all the schools and universities, numerous restrictions were applied by circular, but in Serbia Serb teachers and professors succeeded in avoiding or sabotaging the regulations. "In this regard Serbia completely differed from Croatia under Dr. Machek and the district governor or Ban, Shubashich. In Croatia anti-Semitism was inherited from Austria-Hungary. Antisemitic centers had always existed. Dr. Shubashitch's Croatia had even prepared elaborate laws and regulatios just before the war broke out in Yugoslavia in 1941. A large part of the industries in Jewish hands in Croatia was to be confiscated and nationalized. Anti-Semitism was particularly stressed in Croatia by the right wing of Dr. Machek's Croatian Peasant Party
Dakic Ana
Serbia - Sunday January 18, 2004 at 9:16 am
Published by: Garden City; New York; 1943...I cannot conclude this report without mentioning how the Serbian Orthodox Church, the Patriarch Gavrilo, and his clergy tried to save Serbian Jews and Gypsies. Up to the present day the Germans have massacred I70,000 Gypsies, men, women, and children, in Serbia and the Banat. Serbian Orthodox priests and the Serbian peasantry riskied their lives not only to save ordinary Jews and their children but also to save those Gypsies and their children. Today the chief rabbi of Yugoslav Jews lives in America. He was saved from the Gestapo, being smuggled out from Serbia from monastery to monastery by the Serbian clergy. He was handed over by one Serbian church to another, by one Serbian priest to another until he was passed on to Bulgarian territory. There, with the assistance of the Orthodox Bulgarian clergy, some of whom were his personal friends, he arrived at the Turkish frontier."
Dakic Ana
Serbia - Sunday January 18, 2004 at 10:26 am
Ms. Dakic,It is a current ploy of both Croatian propagandists and Albanian propagandists to transfer their guilt of siding with Nazis during the WWII in exterminating the Jews.
This is of course done with a reason. They recognize too well the dominance of Jews in today’s American liberal press and in some influential government positions.
PS. I thank you for the lead on Srebrenica.
D. Jovanovic, physicist
USA - Sunday January 18, 2004 at 11:30 am
What does this mean? Why would she tell this now? you have to translate this article from German.German "Berliner cajtung" writes: MURDER OF ALBANIANS WAS JUSTIFIED Markus Bickel
BERLIN - Murder of 40 Albanians in Kosovo village Racak on January last year was not murder of unarmed civilians, writes
German "Berliner cajtung". Kein Interesse an gefallenen Serben Arbeit des Haager Tribunals im Fall Racak bemängelt Markus Bickel
http://www.berlinonline.de/arbeit/berliner-zeitung/politik/308862.html
Dakic Ana
Serbia - Sunday January 18, 2004 at 12:24 pm
Svetlana Vugdelic Jews influence many areas of our life. We can go forever citing Jewish contribution to Science, literature and art. I think you need to blame those who have not read Marx for abuses practiced in his name. It was human misery and depravity caused by Capitalism not the Jews who brought Communism to Russia. Jewish leadership in the Russian Revolution which was about thirty percent should be applauded for their vision rather than besmirched. It was not the Jews who sent Lenin to St. Petersburg to foment revolution but the Germans who wanted a quick Russian exit from the war before the Americans came in on the Western Front. It was not the Jews who put the leaders of the American left such as Eugene Debs, Alexander Berkman and Emma Goldman (some who were Jews) in jail but it was the likes of Capitalists like Ford who put them there. Get off the Jew bashing since there is “kukolja u svakoj psenici” “mildew in every wheat field”. Singing this verse by Joe Hill might help you ????
Workers of the world, awaken!
Break your chains, demand your rights.
All the wealth you make is taken
By exploiting parasites.
Shall you kneel in deep submission
From your cradles to your graves?
Is the height of your ambition
To be good and willing slaves?
Walter Trkla
Kamloops BC
Canada - Sunday January 18, 2004 at 2:42 pm
Frank, Asides from the tapes auhenticity, some small questions on the tapes. The source on the domovina site says: International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia. Is this correct? How did the transfer of these tapes between the ICTY and Domovina occur and at whos initiative? Does this mean that the ICTY will bring all the produced evidence in the public domain soon? If my memory serves me right, wasnt there still discussion in the courtroom if these tapes are suited as evidence and how their authenticity can be verified. Cant help to wonder what the purpose of posting these is.
Peter Varavejke
Belgium - Sunday January 18, 2004 at 3:56 pm
Markovic testimony Jan.15th
Walter Trkla
Kamloops BC
Canada - Sunday January 18, 2004 at 4:43 pm
Please, Anybody - Helena Ranta is saying today that Racak scene has been rigged and she is talking about Serbian casualties that so far have not been found? I did not know that there were Serbian casualties in Racak and why didn't she say this in ICTY court or before bombing? Does this woman has so little integrity? Any comments?
Dakic Ana
Serbia - Sunday January 18, 2004 at 6:19 pm
The reason the tapes are being "released" to places such as Domovina etc is simply that the "trial" at the Hague is a flop!
So we now go back to "trial by media" to justify the decisions "the trial at the Hague" will make.
That of course will be consistent with the 10 year old "trial by media" our masters of the NWO have been running against Milosevic and the Serbs in order to justify their actions and objectives. And that allows even MORE hearsay than the Hague, and what's more, there is never going to be any cross examination.
Anything goes, as long as you can pay for it!
David
Oztralia - Sunday January 18, 2004 at 6:24 pm
Does anyone here speak German? If so, could they be gracious enough to paraphrase or summarise the following article for us?
It's about Racak and Ranta. Unfortunately my German sucks or I'd be happy to provide a summary.
David
Oztralia - Sunday January 18, 2004 at 6:40 pm
Where did you see these quotes from Helena Ranta saying that Racak had been rigged? Can you post a link here?
josef crow
new york
ny - Sunday January 18, 2004 at 7:02 pm
Here Ranta speaks about Serbian casualties nobody wants to talk about:
Sie wisse, dass damals "UCK-Kämpfer in der Nähe von Racak begraben wurden", sagte Ranta. "Ich habe schon seinerzeit Informationen erhalten, die beweisen, dass dort auch mehrere serbische Soldaten erschossen wurden. Leider werden wir die genaue Zahl der in dieser Nacht gefallenen Serben wohl nie erfahren." Es sei "beim Tribunal nachzufragen, warum es sich für deren Zahl nicht interessiert".
Essentially she is saying that is is up to the tribunal to inquire about the evidence she has presented in the past about Serbian soldiers killed at Racak and why the ICTY is not interested in the count of Serb victims.
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La - Sunday January 18, 2004 at 7:02 pm
JosefI have posted link and David has done the same. It’s on German but I have read a whole article in Serbian. She stated that there were photographers in Racak prior to Walker and OESC that they took pictures and when you compare those photos with “official” OESC photos she concluded that AT LEAST two bodies have been moved. She said that Walker and OESC did not preserve crime scene, that they allowed all kind of people to walk trough, which was wrong. She also stated that there was a battle that night that some Serbians also died and that ICTY was not interested into finding how many Serbs died, where are their bodies or into anything that was different from Walker story. She was asked to write statement about it prior to news conference with Walker in Pristina and that Walker was to put it mildly disappointed. She felt pressured into stating that was a massacre even thou she did not had any evidence for it. So when I said, “rigged” I meant bodies HAVE BEEN MOVED. Who moved them and how many that is open for discussion. I have tried to translate article to English using web translators and I compared most of it with Sderbian translation and from what I gathered it was accurate.
Dakic Ana
Serbia - Sunday January 18, 2004 at 7:30 pm
The article titles says it all:
Kein Interesse an gefallenen Serben--- Arbeit des Haager Tribunals im Fall Racak bemängelt
Fallen Serbs a question of no interest. The Hague tribuanl work in Racak case considered faulty
This is very much what we know from Mr. Milosevic labors at the ICTY.
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La - Sunday January 18, 2004 at 7:33 pm
SARAJEVO/HELSINKI, in January.There was a lack of understanding of Hague of the UN tribunal in the case of the of Racak expressed the Finnish Pathologin Helena Ranta. At that time the chief of the forensic team that the European Union sent to investigate procedures in the Kosovo village Racak in January 1999, criticized in the discussion with the Berlin newspaper, that UN Tribunal followed only insufficiently heavy fights between Serbian soldiers and Albanian fighters in the night of 15. to 16. January 1999 in the area Racak.
The tragedy in the Kosovo village, that happened five years ago and left more than 40 Albanians died, was used by western politicians in order to convince the public of the necessity for the forthcoming NATO attack on Yugoslavia. A central role was played the US diplomat William Walker. The boss of the Kosovo mission of the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Euro accused immediately the Serbs that they executed, in Racak, 45 unarmed Albanian civilians from close. The Serbian side rejected the representation and spoke of UCK fighters killed in the fight.
Not published photos
She knows, that at that time "that there were UCK fighters in the proximity of Racak to be buried", Ranta said. " At that time I received information already proven, that there were also several Serbian soldiers shot there. Unfortunately we will probably never know the exact number of the Serbs killed in that night. "It is to be inquired why the tribunal is not interested in their number".
Ranta criticized, that the indictment follows the act version delivered by Walker to a large extent against the Yugoslav former president Milosevic in the case Racak. "If Ambassador Walker says, that it concerned in Racak a massacre, this statement does not have any legal effect. I explained already at that time, that the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Euro observers forgot all steps, which one normally expects with the safety device of a scene,: the isolation of the area about, the exclusion of unauthorized persons as well as the a collecting of all pieces of evidence."
Ranta demanded, to publish additionally to the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Euro photos of the scene also the pictures from two further photographers to, the some hours before arrival of the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Euro observers were made. The pictures showed, "that at least one body was later moved - this body is not in the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Euro pictures to see".
In the pass calmly
In the days before beginning of the NATO attack on Yugoslavia, it was clear, "that a whole set of governments had interest in a version of the events of Racak, that the Serbian side made responsible ", so Ranta. " however this version I could not supply to them."
It received their instructions from the German diplomat Ambassador Pauls. The representative of the German European Union presidency at that time asked, to prepare a written statement. “After I had to show these personal expressions William Walker, that obviously everything else as inspired was, as it read. "Nevertheless it has the participation in the important press conference of 17. March 1999 affirmatively. (sorry I could not translate this sentence I think she meean he was not impressed). "With this I sat together with the German Ambassador in Belgrade, Gruber, and a Finnish diplomat on the podium. I hoped, the two gentlemen would support me. "That was not unfortunately the case. "I had rather the feeling they left me alone ", Ranta said.
In the result of the press conference dominated by Walker most media saw the version confirmed by a Serbian massacre at Albanian civilians. Few days later began the NATO air raids on Yugoslavia.
Sorry tried my best:)
Dakic Ana
Serbia - Sunday January 18, 2004 at 8:52 pm
Ryan, glad you read Lees' book and thanks for telling me.
Anna P
California - Sunday January 18, 2004 at 8:57 pm
David in Oztralia, for what it's worth, and although not terribly important to this discussion, I very much agree with you about Mother Teresa. She hobnobbed with the world's richest to get money for her cause (which personally I believe was to become cannonized, full stop), regardless of the potential benefactors' own sins, and she didn't help the poor except when she helped them to die -- yes, on clean sheets. Thank you so much, Mother Teresa. The camera ops with Princess Diana didn't hurt either of them either.
Anna P
California - Sunday January 18, 2004 at 9:06 pm
My dear "Rabid Serb";-), isn't it, sadly, just much too, too easy to rebut any one of the pathetic name calling that he considers "arguments." offered by Arban, with dozens and dozens of examples of Albanian cruelty and visciousness, not to mention criminality of the worst kind. No need to engage in further exchanges with the likes of him I would say...we all know already how bent out of shape the Kosovo Albanians have always been about Serbs because they, the Albanians, operate with a take over policy wherever they go. They go out of their way to cry and whine "victim" whenever they want something for free and there are enough do-gooding dupes and conniving end seekers in the West to give it to them, but even they are learning after having Albaninans in their midst for a time -- e.g. Britain and Italy...the US's turn is coming.
Anna P
California - Sunday January 18, 2004 at 11:49 pm
Although it MAY appear off-topic... Here are a few links about Mother Theresa and the way the media machine creates saints. Reverse the same principles and you see how the media creates "beasts" and enemies of freedom like Milosevic et al. It helps if the consumers of such media stories are uncritical, believe in miracles and don't ask too many questions or look behind the scenes, which of course most don't. And it helps if the Inquisition also declares them as such! Hence the purpose of the ICTY.
Sounds like sacrilege, but at least I'll have some company when they burn me on the stake for blasphemy.
David
Oztralia - Monday January 19, 2004 at 12:45 am
Interesting reading.
Not so Rabid Non Serb
Montenegro - Monday January 19, 2004 at 2:02 am
Goes to show that NATO attack on YU was not a response to the genocide against Albanians. Note the paragraph:"Nato plans for ground war options which included a full-scale occupation of the whole of Yugoslavia were drawn up a year ago and updated throughout the crisis. "
There was no genocide at the time. The only "genocide" was in the NATO propaganda a year later to justify the attack. All they needed was a pretext (which Racak and Rambouillet supplied) to carry out their plans which were framed a year in advance.
Are you listening, Carla?
'The Best Laid Plans of NATO'
David
Oztralia - Monday January 19, 2004 at 2:37 am
Interesting two part analysis of the events that led to NATO aggression on Yugoslavia. I do not agree with the numbers that he used in the second part of the first article. I also do not agree that the expulsion of Albanians was planned in retaliation to the NATO invasion. Expulsion, for the Serbian side, would not serve any military purpose in my opinion. Click on ChomskyThe second article is well worth reading. I am not sure that having Chomsky poke holes in NATO’s case will impress the establishment. The establishment seldom quotes the Chomskies of the world because they are a thorn in their plans to dominate the world. Click on Chomsky
Walter Trkla
Kamloops BC
Canada - Monday January 19, 2004 at 2:45 am
Those Serbs are mighty clever guys! Not only did they manage to remove all the dead Albanians from Kosovo while NATO bombs reigned down on them, but they also removed all their dead tanks and artillery and hardware!
Is it a great leap of imagination that if NATO lied about all the dead Serb military hardware, they also lied about all the dead Albanians?
'Where Are All the Dead Albanians? Shpped Out With the Dead Serbian Tanks?'
Or maybe it was all one BIG FAT lie! The truth seems to be on Milosevic's side so far. The spin doctors are even losing the PR game at the ICTY. In fact, they are losing so badly they shudder even at the mention of it.
Hence the media blackout even 2 years down the track.
David
Oztralia - Monday January 19, 2004 at 4:55 am
On the rigging of the Racack scene. Dear all, I have some photos in my possesion wich clearly show that bodies at Racak were tempered with. I found these after an extensive internet search. It consists of two photos. One of a shot guy which was taken early in the morning of the 16th of january without skullcap. The other photo clearly taken some time later depicts this same guy wearing a white skullcap. This guy is also wearing this skulcap in the video on Walkers video. This shows that the scene was purposedely rigged between this visit and that efforts were made to depict these men as non combatants wearing white skullcaps. I have no means to publishing those on the internet but anyone who is interested in these, please provide your email.
Peter Varavejke
Belgium - Monday January 19, 2004 at 6:13 am
Peter TaylorIndeed in just those 5 attacks NATO killed over 500 Albanians.
Given the fact that thousands of NATO pilots were cluster bombing anything that moved in Kosovo and Metohija, it wouldn't be surprising to discover that NATO bombers killed perhaps 1,500 Albanians.
In addition, virtually the entire leadership of the KLA has been found guilty of murdering Albanians.
When one starts adding up those killed by NATO and the KLA, it becomes clear that these two killed some 75-85% of those Albanian civilians who died.
AP V
NY
NY - Monday January 19, 2004 at 6:16 am
The KLA commander at Racak testified at the ICTY that he gangpressed the villagers into 'fighting' that day. Some were pensionersOne can only imagine what the KLA did with these reluctant villagers.
AP V
NY
NY - Monday January 19, 2004 at 9:03 am
Arben Qosja,No, - your lenghthy claptrap (January 17, 2004 at 4:03 pm) did not answer my repeated question (January 17, 2004 at 6:29 am)
Unless of course I take your 'opinion' about the Danish Kfor-troops in Kosovo for a "NO" (implying, that you have NO KNOWLEDGE of an alledgedly 'brutal search' by Danish Kfor troops in the village of Matica near Zvekan on 6 January, 2004 or thereabout).
Even if in the opinion of Arben Qosja the Danes are "doing a great job" in the Serbian Province of Kosovo that does not exclude "brutal" actions on their part - as alledged HERE
Do anybody else have ANY KNOWLEDGE about this particular incident at Matica? I have wrttten an OPEN LETTER to the Danish Minister of the Defense, mr. Sven Aage Jensby, asking for clarification on what might be rumours (copied in this discussion on January 15, 2004 at 11:47);
so far I have had no answer from the Danish Minister, - nor have I been able to verify the report in 'Reality Macedonia'!
Hence any real assistance from this discussion forum would be greatly appreaciated...
Godfred Louis-Jensen
Copenhagen
D E N M A R K - Monday January 19, 2004 at 9:30 am
DANISH KFOR BRUTALLY SEARCHES KOSOVO SERB VILLAGE OF MATICA
ZVECAN, Jan 6 (Tanjug) - The way in which members of the Danish Kfor have searched the Kosovo Serb village of Matica near Zvecan, demolishing houses and leaving chaos wherever they went, has embittered the villagers, the regional Most TV in Zvecan said on Tuesday.
Strongly denouncing this, as they said, barbarian act, the local inhabitants said that God knows for how many times now, a brutal search of Kosovo Serb houses villages and houses was being carried out in the eve of major Orthodox holidays. The Kfor center in the southern part of Kosovska Mitrovica confirmed for Tanjug that the search had been carried out, but did not inform them of the Danish soldiers' brutality.
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La - Monday January 19, 2004 at 9:39 am
Another phoney reporter fired!
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La - Monday January 19, 2004 at 9:57 am
Here is what Mrs. Arbour thinks about rigging of the crime scene in Racak means :
Back in The Hague, Louis Arbour (Ex Chief Prosecutor of the ICTY) regarding the fears of evidence tampering, she said: "Evidence of tampering -- should such evidence become available, is, in fact, excellent circumstantial evidence of guilt. If one can trace where the order to tamper came from, it permits a pretty strong inference that it was done for the purpose of hiding the truth, which demonstrates consciences of guilt."
This warning was directed at the Serbs. Little did she knew, at the time, that here own are so clumsy that they will be caught with a hand in the cookie jar.
I hope that Mr. Milosevic will quote her statement during his defence.
Pera Bora
Ottawa
Canada - Monday January 19, 2004 at 9:57 am
Kosovo today a Ghetto for serbs: http://en.rian.ru/rian/index.cfm?msg_id=3817132
Proud Chetnik
BAR - Monday January 19, 2004 at 10:03 am
Amnesty International urges release of Bishop Jovan | 16:36 | SRNA
SKOPJE -- Saturday - Amnesty International has urged the Macedonian authorities to immediately release a senior bishop of the Serbian Orthodox Church who was arrested last weekend while holding a private religious service.
In a letter to the Macedonian justice and interior ministers, Amnesty International called for the urgent and unconditional release of Bishop Jovan, and for all charges against him to be dropped.
Bishop Jovan was arrested last weekend while holding a religious service in his father’s apartment in the Macedonian town of Bitolj. He was charged with disseminating national, ethnic and religious hatred and remanded in custody for 30 days.
The arrest is the latest incident in a decades-old dispute between the Serbian and Macedonian Orthodox Churches. The Serbian church refuses to recognise the Macedonian church as independent.
Amnesty International said that Bishop Jovan had been arrested because of his support for the efforts of the Serbian Orthodox Church to “control” the Macedonian church.
Pera Bora
Ottawa
Canada - Monday January 19, 2004 at 10:04 am
Serjoe: You have set me a mighty task not least because I have never taken any great interest in Bosnian affairs. This is not helped by my perception that the Bosnian part of this trial was tacked on because of the failure to provide convincing evidence for the Kosovo indictments. How absurd was it to indict - four years after the event - a signatory to the Dayton peace accords Milosevic, who had no command responsibility for events there, and not to indict Izetbegovic and Tudjman?I have no special access to information: my main source being Internet search engines. However I have no faith that pointing out URL’s is effective in the short run. The last time I showed my brother in law Red Cross figures for missing Serbs in Kosovo he was deeply offended presumably because it contradicted his propaganda induced beliefs. Despite my prompting to sources he still blames the Serbs for destroying the medieval bridge at Mostar. He has his sources: the BBC and his censored military magazines. As far as my sister is concerned she is more interested in the moral dilemma as to whether or not she should have the cat put down because its wiping its bottom on the sitting room carpet. I am convinced that all my family, friends and acquaintances who I try to engage in these matters walk away tapping their heads while exchanging knowing looks. I post here in the hope that it may eventually help those looking to put the record straight.
So my uniquely bizarre answers to your questions are these:
Greater Serbia: Surely the question is a Greater Albania and the apparently new Nato principle that just because a particular group becomes a dominant minority in a Province of a sovereign State it should be allowed by violent means to gain independence and impose the language, religion, laws and customs of a foreign state on that province?
According to statistics given in Judah’s book ‘Kosovo: War and Revenge’ Kosovo’s population of Serbs remained an average of some 200,000 from 1950 to 1990 whereas the Albanian population grew from some 500,000 to 1,600,000! There has been a large and growing influx of Asian Muslims into England’s northern counties or provinces of Yorkshire and Lancashire. They have already formed an alternative parliament and gangs of their youths have attacked our police on a number of occasions. Applying the Nato principle for Kosovo are we to see these northern counties of England become independent and impose sharia law et cetera as a growing majority Muslim population resorts to ever more violence Mr Blair?
One million casualties of Serbs in Bosnia: Demand to see the hospital medical records and graves or death certificates.
Sixty thousand Bosnian women raped by Serbs: Statistics are not always abused as they were by Patrick Ball’s testimony of “10,356” murdered Kosovo Albanians. Such a large group of women would provide a predictable number of pregnancies. DNA tests on the progeny or aborted foetuses should settle the matter!
Four million refugees caused by Serbs in Bosnia: The population of Bosnia and Herzegovina in 1991 was 4,400,000 (including 2,000,000Serbs and Croats) it is now 4,207,300. Gosh that was easy to dispel!
Unfortunately there are none so deaf as those who do not want to hear and none so blind as those who do not want to see.
Peter Taylor
Herts/UK - Monday January 19, 2004 at 10:10 am
LIKE YOU HAVE A BIG DOOR REVOLVING...Peter Varavejke's conclusions on the basis of photos of "a shot guy" in Racak both "with and without skullcap" in the morning of the 16th of January, 1999 were drawn also by mr. Milosevic during his cross-examination of an (embarrassed and diffident!) Ambassador William Walker in The Hague on June 12th, 2002!
On that memorable occasion - now more than one and a half year ago! - mr. Milosevic confronted the American war criminal - (who is in my humble opinion among the accomplices of the rigging at Racak!) - with a series of photographs, concluding that:
"...like you have a big door revolving on a small hinge, this photograph shows that the whole scene has been rigged..."!
(Ref.: Trial Transcripts, p.6861-64 HERE
Godfred Louis-Jensen
Copenhagen
D E N M A R K - Monday January 19, 2004 at 10:14 am
You will notice how incorrectly even Serbian Media is interpreting what really Amnesty International have said. The essence of their statement is the following:
RECOMMENDED ACTION: Please send appeals to arrive as quickly as possible:
- stating that Amnesty International believes Zoran Vraniskovski to be a prisoner of conscience detained for his non-violent conscientiously held beliefs;
- calling for his immediate and unconditonal release and for all criminal charges against him to be dropped.
The complete statement can be found at:
http://www.amnestyusa.org/actioncenter/actions/action10543.pdf
Pera Bora
Ottawa
Canada - Monday January 19, 2004 at 10:28 am
AP V,WHEN did "the KLA commander at Racak" testify at the ICTY that he gangpressed the villagers into 'fighting' that day (as you claim Monday January 19, 2004 at 6:16 am).
Kindly provide data, references as fully and clearly as possible - evidence on the incident at Racak is no doubt of particular, even crucial importance!
I firmly believe, that even this 'Milosevic Trial Discussion' contains sufficient material to soundly argue the aquittal of mr. Milosevic from all charges raised by the ICTY...
...what a pity then that - just like in the Trial Transcripts - the usefull stuff tend to be buried in a lot of useless crap (even forgetting about recent contributions such as those from Arben Qosja).
Godfred Louis-Jensen
Copenhagen
D E N M A R K - Monday January 19, 2004 at 11:01 am
This is a fight between a viper (NATO , The Hague)and a mangoose (justice)and it's known whose neck will crack , the snake is trying hard to bite but the mangoose is far more intelligent avoiding it , the time for the mangoose to jump on the cobra neck is getting close
M P
Panama - Monday January 19, 2004 at 11:13 am
Excuse me, Gogol (Monday January 19, 2004 at 9:30 am)!I know that (Tanjug reported about a certain bitterness of Kosovo Serbs in the village of Matica near Zvecan); and you know, that I know, - so what is the point in repeating what is merely rumours (untill somehow it is verified)?
Are you not just adding to the heap of trash, which tend to render this 'discussion' useless, making it impossible to use it as a tool to follow the 'trial' against mr. Milosevic - or even to find your way in this 'discussion'?
Can YOU maybe tell me what these distressed villagers meant by claiming that the Danish Kfor were "destroying houses" in Matica on 6 January? Did the soldiers flatten these houses, maybe using a bulldozer on the lines of the Israel IDF in Gaza and elsewhere in occupied Palestine? Or did they use dynamite? To what extent were the houses IN FACT "destroyed", - and for what purpose?
Am I a complete fool? I have not yet been able to verify this story (from Rality Macedonia) - but I have my reservations, since such "barbarian acts" were reportedly "carried out in the eve of major Orthodox holidays...God knows how many times"...
...and so far he has been so silent about it (as has our Minister of the Defense).
Godfred Louis-Jensen
Copenhagen
D E N M A R K - Monday January 19, 2004 at 11:25 am
Godfred: When the Korisa refugee convoy was bombed the atrocity - almost 100 dead - was blamed on Serb artillery.This lie was exposed only when the Serbs took reporters to the scene and saw the markings on the bomb fragments.
Ask yourself why no western reporters visted the site to report on the damage at Matica.
Peter Taylor
Herts/UK - Monday January 19, 2004 at 11:42 am
Whats the point repeting this Danish matter of yours? Im shure Reality Macedonia will help you if you just send them a mail! But a complete fool are not supposed to act rational
Arben Quosja
Chicago
USA - Monday January 19, 2004 at 11:43 am
Ryan Mircic you wrote:“ will give my own opinion as to why I think that Kosovo should never have been a republic within Yugoslavia (as the Albanians demanded quite a few times; the demonstrations of 1981 spring to mind), on equal par to Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia, Serbia, Montenegro and Macedonia. “
They actually never agreed to live in Yugoslavia, they have never been concerned by autonomy, they far ago demanded only independence.
First Prizren’s League was formed 1878 and laid out a plan for Great Albania. Pec’s League 1898/1900 and Second Prizren’s League 1943 followed and it was confirmed in 1998 when Albanian Academy in Tirana accepted the same strategy with goals to fight for Kosovo and Dardanija - East Kosovo independece with Presevo, Bujanovac and Medvedja, for special status Albanians in Montenegro for region Maljsije (Rozaje, Plav, Gusinje, Ulcinj), for Albanian constitution postion in Macedonia - Iliridi, and for Autonomy in Nortwest Greece with Janjina city. (Bogdanoviæ, 1985.) They demanded independence and they fought for it: 1878, 1898, 1901, 1903, Balkan Wars, WW2, 1945, 1955, 1968 then comes 1981.You wrote :
“First of all, I believe that Milosevic centralising Yugoslavia by revoking Vojvodina's and Kosovo's autonomy was wrong. “
Serbia from 1974 constitution was brought to colonial position to its own autonomous provinces - since Serbian assembly could have not made any decision without Vojvodina’s and Kosovo delegation and could have been overruled by these delegation on any issue while Kosovo’s and Vojvodina’s assembly voted on its own without any interference from Serbia, even though they were officially the integral part of Serbia.
However he did not revoke autonomy; SFRJ Assembly revoked Kosovo and Vojvodina assembly’s rights to overrule Serbia. (He might have been the biggest advocate of these amendments, however it was Yugoslavian assembly that kept Autonomy but stripped unprecedented Autonomy’s rights to overrule the State.)You wrote :
“While he did this in 1989, he supported the re-drawing of Croatia's and BiH's borders into the Republic of Serbian Krajina and the Republic of Srpska. This was obviously a double-standard. “
According to Croatian Constitution from 1974, Croatia was the state of Croats and Serbs. Bosnia and Herzegovina was the state of Muslims, Serbs and Croats. Throwing Serbs out from the Croatian Constitution, and overruling them in Bosnia by referendum was redrawing of borders and revocation of Serbian people rights guaranteed in AVNOJ, which was used as a base for Yugoslavian republics’ borders.
You wrote :
“I believe that Tito decentralised Serbia in 1974, not because he was anti-Serb, but because he attempted to realistically satisfy the demands of the large Hungarian minority in Vojvodina and the Albanian majority in Kosovo”
There was as well even more realistic and lawfully based demands from Italian population in Istria and Savudria, Slovenian demands for Piran’s Bay, Hungarian demands for ‘Medjimurje’ Montenegrin demands for Skadar, Serbs for Krajina, Macedonian for Bulgarian and Grece part of Macedonia -however, nobody decentralized Croatia, Slovenia, Albania, Bulgaria and Greece, only Serbia was decentralized.
You wrote :
“However, these two autonomous provinces should not have become republics, nor should they in the future for a simple reason: Albanians already have an independent country i.e. Albania and the Hungarians have Hungary. It would be unfair for an ethnic group to have two homelands.
As we see in the rest of Europe, nowhere does an ethnic group have two republics. For example, the French have France, the Germans have Germany, the Poles have Poland, etc. “If somebody else was to explain rights for an ethnic group to have two homelands he might have argue that German People have in fact today three homelands: Germany, Austria and Switzerland. Italians have Italy, Monaco and Switzerland. French have Franc and Switzerland, and what about Liechtenstein? You wrote :
“Members of the Serbian Academy of Arts and Sciences (SANU) constantly asked the question: Why didn't Tito give the Serbs autonomy in the Krajina region of Croatia? Same reason; because Serbs already had a republic i.e. their homeland of Serbia within Yugoslavia.”
Serbs in Krajina were sovereign as a nation before Yugoslavia was formed in the State of Slovenes Croats and Serbs. Serbs from Croatia ceded their rights to Yugoslavia in 1918. ZAVNOH as Croatian Assembly in 1944 proclaimed Croatia as a Federal state with Croats and Serbs as Constitution nations. Serbs were Constitutional nation in all Croatian Constitutions until 1990
AVNOJ, which they took as a base for new secessionist states, had five torches not six. (ach one representing one constitutional nation not Republics.You wrote :
“However, I do think that the Albanians took advantage of and abused Tito's liberalism after he died in 1980 in demanding Kosovo become a republic. When Tito was alive, he had fairly extensive popular support. As soon as he died, he seemed to have conveniently become everyone's worst nightmare... “ :
Tito’s liberalism??? - Yes he was liberal to Albanians, and to some others because he was wasting somebody else’s attainments. - Freedom is limited by somebody else’s freedom.
Pero Peric
Canada - Monday January 19, 2004 at 11:44 am
The Propaganda WarThe catalogue of disastrous 'accidents' presents a challenge for Nato spin doctors. The protocol is to start by blaming the Serbs. When US State Department spokesman James Rubin suggested the refugees at Korisa may have been hit by Serb shells not Nato bombs, he was following a procedure established over civilian bomb damage to Pristina and the bombing of the Djakovica refugee convoy
Nato's war on Serbs is still ongoing in Kosovo. Lies, lies, lies ...
Peter Taylor
Herts/UK- Monday January 19, 2004 at 11:46 am
HTML Correction
Hopefully - Monday January 19, 2004 at 11:46 am
- Monday January 19, 2004 at 11:51 am
This just in: Expert says tribunal ignored evidence of Racak gunfight | 15:14 | Tanjug Helsinki -- Monday - Finnish forensic expert Helena Ranta has accused the UN tribunal in The Hague of ignoring indications that heavy fighting had taken place in Racak between Serb forces and Kosovo Albanian guerrillas in January 1999, before international investigators claimed to have uncovered a massacre in the Kosovo village. Ranta, who headed the European Union forensic team assigned to the village, told Berliner Zeitung she had received evidence at the time that several Serbs soldiers had also been killed. The alleged massacre of 45 ethnic Albanians in Racak on January 15, 1999, outraged the international community. Just two months later, NATO launched a 78-day bombing campaign to drive Serb forces from Kosovo.
Dan B
Canada - Monday January 19, 2004 at 2:24 pm
Godfred,
I am no bothered at all by the fact that only Tanjug is reporting the incident, involving brutality perpetrated against the Serbs of Kosovo by the Danish KFOR contingent. This king of event is nothing new and Tanjug has proven to be a perfectly reliable source of news for many years. News don't need to be verified, as you put it, by another news agency, and I wouldn't expect any NATO country news-media to corroborate Tanjug's reports, especially when they are so damning to NATO in their "humanitarian" endeavors.
Has the Danish Minister of Defense denied the incident or just kept silent?
Remember when the UNO soldiers were still in Mogadishu, Somalia while at the same time keeping the "peace' in Sarajevo, and for some strange coincidence the unique drugs of Somalia became available in the streets markets of Sarajevo, no connection what so ever with the UNO, it was said at the time, just a "coincidence"!
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La - Monday January 19, 2004 at 6:27 pm
test
t t
t - Monday January 19, 2004 at 9:21 pm
In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends:
Martin Luther King Jr.,"The Trumpet of Conscience", 1967
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La - Monday January 19, 2004 at 11:28 pm
Mr. AP V
Your claim that the OTP has spent US$ 200M on the Milosevic trial so far has made me curious where I could find some specification or breakdown of this figure. Can you help?
Mr. Varavejke
The answer to your questions can be found in the first paragraph at danas.org
General
In the discussion of the work of Dr. Helena Ranta in Kosova, the 25 mins <"http://2002.xs4all.nl/domovina/html/archive/990209_antennev.ram">EO TV 'Antenne' documentarymight give some insight. Narration is in Dutch, but there is a lot of (subtitled) English and Serbian in the sound track which could give you an idea of her project.
Frank Tiggelaar
NL - Monday January 19, 2004 at 11:30 pm
Corrected Ranta link
Frank Tiggelaar
Netherlands - Monday January 19, 2004 at 11:36 pm
Serbs in Krajina didn't need autonomy. They were a constituent people, not a minority as far as the Croatian Republican constitution went. They were written out of the Croatian constitution by Tudjman and co.
Similarly, they were a constituent people in Bosnia-Herzegovina. They were denied their constitutional rights there too by Izetbegovic and Boban!
As constituent people of the republic, no secession could have been effected without their agreement. Given that the Croats in Croatia, also a constituent people of Croatia wanted secession, and the Bosnians and Croats in B-H, also a constituent peoples of B-H wanted secession, they were entitled to secede in so far as they could take their territory where they lived out of YU. On the other hand, the Serbs, as constituent people of Croatia and B-H respectively, were then entitled to stay in YU on the territories where THEY lived.
Such an agreement would have given everyone EQUAL rights. But that was not to be because the NWO is not interested in constitutions and equal rights. They literally STOLE the land of the Serbs and allowed the Tudjman and Izetbegovic fascist camps to deny the Serbs their constituional rights and turn them into minorities with no right to self determination which they allowed the others.
No amount of bull can change that fact, not in the ICTY, not in the history books and not in the media.
It's all in black and white for anyone who wants to see. Check the constitutions of Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina before and after and see for yourself if you don't believe me.
And the International Community knew all along that what it was doing was ILLEGAL and against the relevant constitutions and laws of the republics and YU! Then again, the ICTY is also illegal but that simple fact doesn't stop them either.
David
Oztralia