 MILOSEVIC TRIAL DISCUSSION ARCHIVE |
| JURIST >> LEGAL NEWS - WORLD LAW >> Discussion >> Milosevic Trial Discussion Archive |
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Former Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic is on trial for war crimes in the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia at The Hague. This marks the first time a head of state has been personally prosecuted before an international criminal court.
Is Slobodan Milosevic getting a fair trial?
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- discussion archive
- Sunday January 19, 2003 at 1:16 pm
Hi Andy, I've got a couple more books for you about the Kosovo crisis that you may find interesting. Check out: "Serbia-Kosovo: A Just War?" by Frank Columbus and "Degraded Capability: The Media and the Kosovo Crisis" by Harold Pinter et al. Harold Pinter is a British journalist who was constantly attacking NATO and the western media during the Kosovo crisis. I'll probably be receiving them tomorrow. Although I haven't read them yet,what I was able to extrapolate from the blurb,indicates that they take an alternative and questioning view (like Parenti). Also,you may find Tariq Ali's "Masters of the Universe: The NATO Balkan Crusade" interesting. Regards.
Ryan Mircic
St.Albans
UK - Sunday January 19, 2003 at 4:08 pm
The pointed to article is very interesting. It is an old article. I have already read it earlier. It is currently re-posted on the JURIST web site. It is based on the wishful thinking of the ICTY founders.
http://www.asil.org/insights/insigh35.htm
Pera Bora
Ottawa
Canada - Sunday January 19, 2003 at 6:22 pm
Israel Shamir attacked Jared Israel for being the Jew that loves his country. There is nothing wrong with Jared being a 'nationalist'. The Serbs allowed Communism to break them up so much in fifty years that they allowed a new pupet government and NWO plutocrats to pull a 'quick one' on them so they are willing to disown everything within their roots, to disown their national identity, and to feel ashamed of the word 'nationalism'.
The Jews have survived thanks to their historical conscience. They have survived for two thousand years through deep religious feelings nurturing a most powerful national identity and that is what made their survival possible. No ethnic group should feel ashamed of the word 'nationalism.' Nationalism is a wonderful word. Whoever loves his own people is also capable of loving other people.
Above words belong to Dr. Klara Mandic. She was a senior Jewish community leader and a Belgrade dental surgeon who had lost seventy-three members of her family at the Nazi Holocaust during WW II. As a senior Jewish community leader she raised to prominence during President Milosevic regime. After new NWO government was installed in Belgrade she was murdered. 'Nationalist' Serbs will never forget her.
D S
USA - Sunday January 19, 2003 at 7:32 pm
Ryan,Thank you for the info. Keep me posted on what you think about the books once you start reading them.
D S,
I completely agree.
Best Regards to all.
Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States - Monday January 20, 2003 at 1:22 am
Los Angeles Times, January 19, 2003, article by Alissa J. Rubin, “New Balkan Trend Turns Accused Sinners to Saints.”The article implies war will break out again when peacekeepers eventually leave. Blaming all of this mostly on the love the Bosnian Serbs have for Karadzic. Rubin also mentions Croats, Muslims and Izebegovic and the dearly beloved terrorists the KLA who are now living in Kosovo, as some of the heroes of the Balkans who are not saints but sinners he says. Carla Del Ponte claims she will be indicting some of the KLA in a few months. Do not hold your breath! They are scared sick to touch these people. They know what they are dealing with.
Rubin spends a lot of time going after the Serbs.
Cspan on January 19, 2003 on Anti War Movement:
Caller: The people who are protesting just hate Bush and are doing this to get at him They do not care about Iraq. They are hypocrites just as I was when I protested the bombing of Serbia. Now I know I was being hypocritical. I realize that now because he (Milosevic killed thousands of people.)
Caller was obviously one of the right who protested the bombing of Serbs to get at Clinton.
Andy and Ryan thanx for not using initials or pseudonyms. You stand up for what you believe in. Those who do not use their names do not have any credibility.
Kathryn Love
SJC
USA - Monday January 20, 2003 at 2:12 am
For DS, Concerning the "Spider" group, it is also known that they were (hand in hand with the French Secret Service) responsible for sending hundreds of Serb mercenaries to fight for former dictator MObutu (supported by none other than France) in 1997. I remember talking to one Serb mercenary who was there allegedly, he just said that the hills of Africa were fun and that he got pretty good money. 10,000 dollars is excellent money for unemployed Serbs in the Republika Srpska and using mercenaries to support a regime in AFrica has been the French method for over 40 years. One more note, there is something very strange about Jugoslav Petrusic, his unit was multiethnic although it was supposedly the 10th elite unit of the Army of Republika Srpska (Bosnian Serb forces), it had a Croat (Drazen Erdemovic who got off with a slap on the wrist - 5 years - for having "confessed" to Srebrenica and more importantnly pointed the finger at others), unnamed Muslims and a Slovene. I remember very well having read about that just can't find it right now. Here is a link to an article (in Serbian unfortunately) which does provide some background on this very or not-so strange group http://www.medijaklub.cg.yu/zanimljivi/zanimljivi12-99/06-5.htm
Igor Jaramaz
Canada - Monday January 20, 2003 at 2:51 am
So, how about the French killing thousands of Muslims in Bosnia? are we to deduce that theory from the Spider group? Or should we concede that Milosevic's words may have been open to many interpretations?If you were the US government, what would you do? The problem is the buzz word "credibility". That is normally taken to mean that the US policy cannot change. But what if it has to change, when it is so "out of touch" with the reality as the Congress support for the ICTY? The answer: you change the policy covertly. That should be no surprise, and I think this is what is happening here.
I think we all agree that Milosevic's defense is becoming uncannily accurate. I think Vera even mentioned that at one point. But the really suspicious thing is the "Arkan" revelation? How did Milosevic know the secret witness was behind the murder of him? Did he get the info from the Yugoslav government? I doubt it, because why didn't it act earlier to get him arrested? Or did it change its mind only to put itself in such an uncomfortable situation as this one? How then does Milosevic know that the witness was taken abroad? Did he get this info from abroad?
And the fact remains that Vergès's statement that Morillon stopped the Srebrenica massacre is pitted against Milosevic's statement that the French committed that massacre. Who should one believe? I am more favourable to Vergès's view, if only because it would tally with the non-existent massacre! And the fact that Milosevic has something to hide is borne out by the fact that he (or someone who claims to be speaking in his name) accuses Vergès for denying the Srebrenica massacre!
The MI6 connection is interesting, because it is more heavily tilted towards the defence. Maybe this explains the drive to get the amici curiae installed. And nobody would suspect Kay, because he is the nice guy, unlike Nice, who is not so nice. And after all is said and done about the secret witnesses, the ICTY system is odd. It allows the tribunal to tell more about the protected witnesses than just the identity!
And I can't dismiss the view of some Serbs that Slobo is prone to make a big fuss about something, while he is turning the tables in his own favour. Making deals with the prosecution would explain his seemingly superhuman abilities. On the other hand, his unerring questions would give the impression that he must have a clear conscience, because he never gets mixex up in his own verbage.
But let's put these two things together. The Bush administration needs to consider changing direction, if only covertly. Milosevic wants to win the case, "by hook or by crook". Why would Milosevic do that? Is he not the national hero that he is posing as? Well, he may be. But don't forget that there would be many things to pressure him with, if someone were to appeal to his nationalistic sentiments. What has happened during the past six months? The Serb rogues state status has been revoked. The frozen bank accounts have been de-frozen. Bush even sent a thank-you note to Djindjic, thanking the Serbs for their fight against terrorism. All these acts of good will are somehow related to the Milosevic era, and Milosevic was in a position to make the Bush administration more willing.
And the Bush administration has a lot of pressure to change direction against the tribunal. Remember, all the US administrations may know about the hoax in the Balkans, but the Republican party went public about the Sarajevo hoax in the report by the Republican party Committee.
And has there been a softening towards Milosevic? I think so, if the BBC and WSJ are any indication of the official American and British policy (as they no doubt are). The extremely well-measured WSJ article and the BBC document Slobo-with-the-small-eyes came out about the same time. They have much more sympathy to Milosevic, even if he is still depicted as the one having the small eyes or scoring some political points. Maybe Milosevic has small eyes. On the other hand, the WSJ article almost seems to brag about Milosevic's toughening defense, which could suggest that the "government" that he supposedly gets his help from might be American or at least British.
And remember Mr T, who is here to measure the changing winds. He was the one to announce the BBC documentary "Slobo-with-the-small-eyes".
And, you called Vergès a Nazi, and if you didn't do it in the name of Israel, you did it in the name of Slobo. This thread works better, if I put the questions and you explain yourself.
Jari Nousiainen
Finland - Monday January 20, 2003 at 3:05 am
Andy, if you really think this is worth going into, I must point out that on January 11, you said: "The Wall St. Journal lied when it said that Jacques Verges was a legal advisor to President Milosevic. I am a member of the ICDSM, I have checked this with Jared Israel (the vice-chairman of the ICDSM) and I can tell you quite categorically that Mr. Verges is absolutely not a legal advisor to President Milosevic. Jacques Verges is an Algerian fascist and President Milosevic never meets with him or consults him in any way."I should add that this last sentence was a separate paragraph. So were you suggesting that you have checked with Jared Israel only that he is not a legal advisor to Milosevic. Do you now want me to apologize to J.Israel for something you said? For the rest, I would like to remind you that this is a discussion. Or do you expect this website should work as another outlet for the pro-Milosevic party?
J N
Finland - Monday January 20, 2003 at 3:13 am
Gogol,The Albanians Code is quite interesting, or at least I find it interesting for the following reasons:
- The Western media keeps talking about "revenge attacks" against Serbs. As much as this might seem despicable and savage, not even the Kanun of Lek Dukagjin condones such actions. It is clear, one may only go after male members of a specific family who are considered of age. Therefore, when they kill a child, bomb a bus or slit the throat of a granny that is not a revenge attack. Neither is it a revenge attack when they just indiscriminately kill a Serb. If they feel that injustice has been done to them they must take their revenge on that specific wrong-doer. Once he is killed, ONLY then can they take on the other male members. I know all of this because we Serbs from Hercegovina/MOntenegro also had the same practice only we banished it centuries ago. However my family still remembers who it was that we fueded against, the DZeletovici, but now we are the closest of all because we established a kind of kinship that is obtained by intermarriage. Thus that ensures that no more vendettas can take place. That was 300 years ago. You still have Albanians and Slavic Muslims in MOntenegro who go around shooting each other (happens every year), not to mention all of the killing in Albania and Kosovo.
- One very smart Serb, DJurickovic, has written a 500 page book in Serbian on ther traditions of the Albanian people. He was a civil lawyer for over 30 years in Kosovo so he used all of his Albanian clients as sources (names them by age and name). He concludes, and I had come to that conclusion much earlier on my own, that the vendetta had nothing to do with pride but rather with fear. I.E. you do not kill your neighbour or burn his house because you fear his retaliation. Only later was that presented as pride, especially in Montenegro.
- The Vendetta itself was how the Albanians took over Kosovo. They could not overtake Montenegro because the Serbs there practiced the vendetta but the Serbs in Kosovo did not. You see, archive documents from the 19th century are full of examples. Such and such Albanian robs or kills such and such Serb. A member of the Serb family retaliates and then has to flee with his whole family to the Kingdom of Serbia as the whole Albanian clan prepares to wipe out his whole family "as retaliation". That is why the Albanians and some foreign authors say that the Montenegrins are respected by the Albanians. They are not respected but feared because they also had clans and the Albanian clans did not dare go up against them (as the odds were not 20 to 1). Once again, fear and pride/respect are substituted.
- Apart from my interest for clan life among the Albanians I am also a history lover and if I find the time I just might develop a short thesis on the origin of the Albanians (Caucasus->Levant->Sicily->Balkans). For now take my word on the fact that the Sicilian society is also similarly clan-like. It is my opinion as well, that the Sicilian maffia had taken over the United States in the same manner. The police could arrest one member of the mob but then again would have to face revenge attacks from the rest of the clan. The mob clans would fight in similar manners, clan-members keep up a barrage towards outsiders (i.e. most mobsters do not want to testify against another, once more, not so much out of pride/respect but fear eventhough they might put the accent on the first rather than the latter)
- The Kanun of Leka Dukagjinit was in some areas mingled to a great extent with the sharia (Islamic/Qur'anic laws) or simply distorted by the locals so one never can exactly be sure about what the original Code spoke of
- The Code however is unequivocal. Failure to offer hospitality to a stranger results in a burned down house. Kind of explains all of the burned down houses in Kosovo, most, I would say, the work of the KLA as not all of the Albanians were willing to help them. I doubt that the Serb security forces had any interest in burning these houses as the State of Serbi later had to help in their rebuilding and because they were given specific orders to keep civilian casualties to a minimum (because of the obvious media effects and indirect implications which would turn the populace against them and into the arms of the KLA).
Igor Jaramaz
Canada - Monday January 20, 2003 at 3:52 am
The ICTY is saying nothing, transmitting nothing and the "most important trial since the end of World War II" is no where to be heard or seen"
Is Mr. Milosevic alive?
Gogol Charlemagne
Conn. USA - Monday January 20, 2003 at 3:59 am
Well, when was the last time you saw him alive? Is it a coincidence that Slobo catches a cold this bad after the "Arkan" revelation?
Jari Nousiainen
Finland - Monday January 20, 2003 at 4:11 am
It is interesting but since I have been following this trial since its beginning I have checked schedules and notices etc., at the ICTY web page and I don't remember seeing any one's trial (and there are many) being suspended because a case of "flue". It seems Mr. Milosevic is the only one kept in that infamous detention center in Schvenigen who catches the "flue" which is considered to be a contagious condition prone to spread easily among inmates breathing the same recycle air.
Gogol Charlemagne
Conn. USA - Monday January 20, 2003 at 4:41 am
Slobo told the doctor he was having nightmares in which he dreamt he was sliding off the roof of a building whilst hanging on to the chimney.Immediately the doctor replied 'I know what is wrong with you: You are coming down with the flue'.
Philip Taylor
Herts/UK - Monday January 20, 2003 at 5:43 am
More hidden news:
Separately, a tribunal spokeswoman said Milosevic still had flu and his trial would remain adjourned on Monday. The trial was halted a week ago after Milosevic fell ill.
"He's still got the flu he had last week, so there's no hearing today," the spokeswoman said. It was not yet clear whether he would return to the dock on Tuesday, she added.
So, it seems this is made known only behind other news, in other words the trial of Slobodan Milosevic is not news any more, it is over.
Gogol Charlemagne
Conn, USA - Monday January 20, 2003 at 5:51 am
More interesting news:
There is a threat of slavery, humiliation and poverty over Serbia, the threat that is becoming bigger every day. For every citizen wishing good to his family and to his country there is no more important goal than freedom. That goal can be reached only if people's unity about the need of urgent dismount of the puppet government leading the country under control of foreign powers, will be achieved. Several years on the post of the President of the Republic, I advocated the policy of people's unity.
Gogol Charlemagne
Conn. USA - Monday January 20, 2003 at 6:46 am
In the UK we have inoculations against contracting influenza: abbreviations flu or flue (the abbreviation flue not now in common use and also meaning a small chimney).Are we not being told the truth yet again: If Milosevic is really getting successive bouts of flue why is he not being inoculated?
Peter Taylor
Herts/UK - Monday January 20, 2003 at 12:35 pm
And here is another joke:“Even as the final credits ran for The Fall of Milosevic last night, it was being hailed as an instant classic, an example of how to craft documentaries that spread light and truth. ”Source
How can these people, the BBC, the producers, the Guardian newspaper reporter and editors be so blind to the truth? Maybe it has something to do with guilt and gelt. After 9/11 Blair and company will be extremely compromised if it is revealed that they were complicit in Islamic terror in Kosovo ergo there was and is no significant Islamic terror in Kosovo.
Four and a half hours of broadcasting about the troubles in Kosovo and Serbia from 1998 to 2001 and hardly a word about KLA crimes against humanity: thousands of atrocious murders, tens of thousands of injuries, hundreds of thousands of expelled minorities, massive theft and destruction of property including more than 100 churches. Also Islamic terrorist insurgencies from Kosovo into Southern Serbia proper, Macedonia and Montenegro: Each bringing more deaths, injuries, displacements and destruction of property. In fact genocide.
Sure this set of programmes ‘The Fall of Milosevic’ is a classic. It is a wonderful example of propaganda by omission. Far from spreading “light and truth”, by their biased and blinkered reporting Root of the BBC, Brown of the Guardian and Percy, of the producers Lapping, are spreading muck on these huge and ongoing KLA crimes against humanity in Kosovo in order to keep KLA crimes in the dark. Likewise for the viewers it’s ‘treat ‘em like mushrooms’ time again: Keep them in the dark and feed them bullshit. Sure there is truth therein and some of it very revealing but these blatant omissions are what Blair’s BBC and the British media in general regard as spreading “light and truth”.
Islamic terrorists now murder and injure our police while they prepare Ricin to poison us with. In response British police batter down the doors of Mosques to get at the perpetrators and arrest them by the dozen. Now we begin to see just a tiny, tiny fraction of what the Serb police had to deal with in Kosovo - and we don’t like it. Will Blair and his blinkered muck spreaders now see the light and fully examine these matters in Kosovo: Demand in the name of Justice that del Ponte and the ICTY indict the criminal leaders of the KLA? Justice: remember what that is: Truth - the whole truth and nothing but the truth - plus Impartiality.
http://media.guardian.co.uk/mediaguardian/story/0,7558,878007,00.html
Peter Taylor
Herts/UK - Monday January 20, 2003 at 12:51 pm
The ICDSM had this to say about Ms Dickson at http://emperor.vwh.net/icdsm/donations.htm :"Currently we are raising money to bring Quebec Attorney Tiphaine Dickson to meet with President Milosevic at The Hague. We hope she can work out of the Netherlands, assisting President Milsoevic in the preparation of evidence and helping organizethe upcoming defense part of the "trial."
I thought that amounted to saying that she would be his lawyer.
J N
Finland - Monday January 20, 2003 at 12:55 pm
From where I can get it:
The Hague - The trial of former Yugoslav president Slobodan Milosevic will not be continued today or tomorrow. The accused is not fit yet, and the continuation of the process is expected on Monday, 27 January, reported press service of the Hague Tribunal. It was planned earlier that the trial should have continued today and tomorrow only. Even that had to be postponed because Milosevic still suffers from influenza. The process was interrupted six times so far because of the illness of the accused. The doctors of the Tribunal have examined Milosevic at demands of the trial chamber and found that he had cardiovascular disorder and high blood pressure. The three-part team of the Belgrade Military Medical Academy (VMA) will depart for The Hague on 23 January. They are to examine Milosevic with the permit of the Hague Tribunal. At demand from Milosevic?s attorneys and with Milosevic?s agreement, there are also his cardiologist, neurologist, and physiotherapist in medical team traveling to The Hague.
Peter,The issue now is what to do with Kosovo, since as the BBC says the place is in bad shape the suggestion is to keep as it this: under military occupation.
Gogol Charlemagne
Conn. USA - Monday January 20, 2003 at 1:00 pm
Jari,
Yes, indeed. And I wonder what his whishes really are given the state of affaires at the Rwandan trials where Tiphaine Dickson is involved I wonder what good this can do to Mr. Milosevic.
I find surprising the news of his attorney in Belgarde never reaches anyone in the West. Maybe Vera has more to tell us about it.
Gogol Charlemagne
Conn. USA - Monday January 20, 2003 at 1:04 pm
More from whatever I can get it:
Two vans, escorted by a police motorcycle, entered the prison yard a little before 1PM. The Hague Tribunal did not officially report when Milutinovic was going to appear before the tribunal and plead. It is expected to happen before the end of the week. National Council for FRY Cooperation with the Hague Tribunal informed that former president of Serbia Milan Milutinovic arrived to The Hague voluntarily. ?By coming to The Hague voluntarily, Milutinovic fulfilled his legal obligation according to the Statute of the Tribunal and to FRY law about cooperation with the tribunal. That way he gave an example to all other suspects?, said the statement. According to cooperation law, Milutinovic has the right to have guarantees of the federal government and Serbian government to be temporarily released.
Yugoslav Prime Minister Dragisa Pesic announced today that the governments of Yugoslavia and Serbia would offer guarantees to the Hague Tribunal that recent Serbian president Milan Milutinovic could be released until the beginning of the trial. However, he told radio Free Europe that he was not too optimistic about Milutinovic?s release. ?When it comes to the tribunal, everything is possible. I think that in case of some other suspects and guarantees that we issued for them, they did not do the right thing. I allow the possibility that the guarantees will not be accepted in this case either, no matter what promises we got?, Pesic pointed out.
Trust is conditional. Now Plavic has to decide whether to testify against (whoever) before her sentence which has an open ended date, for obvious reasons as we can see.
Gogol Charlemagne
Conn. USA- Monday January 20, 2003 at 1:05 pm
More from whatever I can get it:
Two vans, escorted by a police motorcycle, entered the prison yard a little before 1PM. The Hague Tribunal did not officially report when Milutinovic was going to appear before the tribunal and plead. It is expected to happen before the end of the week.
Trust is conditional. Now Plavic has to decide whether to testify against (whoever) before her sentence which has an open ended date, for obvious reasons as we can see.National Council for FRY Cooperation with the Hague Tribunal informed that former president of Serbia Milan Milutinovic arrived to The Hague voluntarily. ?By coming to The Hague voluntarily, Milutinovic fulfilled his legal obligation according to the Statute of the Tribunal and to FRY law about cooperation with the tribunal. That way he gave an example to all other suspects?, said the statement. According to cooperation law, Milutinovic has the right to have guarantees of the federal government and Serbian government to be temporarily released.
Yugoslav Prime Minister Dragisa Pesic announced today that the governments of Yugoslavia and Serbia would offer guarantees to the Hague Tribunal that recent Serbian president Milan Milutinovic could be released until the beginning of the trial. However, he told radio Free Europe that he was not too optimistic about Milutinovic?s release. ?When it comes to the tribunal, everything is possible. I think that in case of some other suspects and guarantees that we issued for them, they did not do the right thing. I allow the possibility that the guarantees will not be accepted in this case either, no matter what promises we got?, Pesic pointed out.
Gogol Charlemagne
Conn. USA- Monday January 20, 2003 at 1:34 pm
Hi Andy,today I received the book "Serbia-Kosovo: A Just War?" It is actually a book written by a few journalists and historians,not just Frank Columbus. I'll give you the names; maybe you might recognise some. Krinka Vidakovic-Petrov Ludmila Selinsky Rostislav V. Polchaninov A.L. Narochnitsky Jim Nichol Carol Migdalovitz Karen Donfried Aleksandar Petrov Alex Michich David M. Ackerman Steven Woehrel Valerie Makino Julie Kim Francis T. Miko But I tell you what,I LIKE the look of Columbus' theories and opinions. I suggest that you try and get a hold of the book (which shouldn't be too difficult because the publisher is Nova Science,New York. Cheers.
Ryan Mircic
St.Albans
UK- Tuesday January 21, 2003 at 10:08 am
Hi Andy,here are the contributors to "Degraded Capability: The Media and the Kosovo Crisis" Harold Pinter Philip Hammond Edward S.Herman Diana Johnstone David Chandler Mirjana Skoco William Woodger Peter Gowan Richard Keeble Mick Hume Goran Gocic Seth Ackerman Jim Naureckas David Peterson John Pilger Thomas Deichmann Karin Trandheim Ron Nikos Raptis Lilia Nizamova Irina Savelieva Raju Thomas Siddarth Varadarajan Andy,all I can say to you is: BUY IT! :) That applies to all of you here aswell ;)
Ryan Mircic
St.Albans
UK- Tuesday January 21, 2003 at 10:17 am
For the last two days I was not able to access the Jurist discussions. Has anyone else had the same problem? An interesting trial (Canada vs. Nikola Ribic) is about to take place in Edmonton Alberta. Ribic is a twenty five year old Serbian Canadian arrested in Mainz Germany and charged with treason. He was subsequently extradited to Canada.Nikola’s is accused of hostage taking and “stands charged under Canada's Criminal Code with two counts of kidnapping and two counts of hostage-taking. The charges relate specifically to the unlawful capture in May,1995, of Canadian Forces Capt. Patrick Rechner, then an unarmed U.N. military observer in Bosnia, and his Czech colleague Capt. Oldrich Zidlick”
What is interesting about this case is that Rechner and others like him were not unarmed and were target spotters for incoming NATO plane. Because of the terrain in Bosnia it was difficult for the incoming NATO jets to find targets and it was necessary to use hand held laser guided systems in order to bring the ordinance on target. Rechner, I understand provided the targeting information. Rechner claims that Ribic tied him to a lightning rod and at the same time saved his life because another Serbian soldier wanted to shoot him.
The other point of interests relates to five documents which Ribic wants from the federal government. The Federal government refuses to release the documents citing national security.
I quote “The applicant Attorney General of Canada seeks an order, pursuant to subsection 38.06(3) of the Canada Evidence Act, confirming the prohibition of the disclosure of five documents in the possession of the Department of National Defence ("the secret documents") said to contain "sensitive information" or "potentially injurious information" as defined in section 38 of the Act ("the secret information"). To paraphrase the two definitions, this is information in the possession of the Government of Canada which, if disclosed publicly, could injure international relations, national defence or national security.”
Walter Trkla
Kamloops BC
Canada- Tuesday January 21, 2003 at 11:56 am
Peter,
A flea and a fly in a flue
Were imprisoned, so what could they do?
"Let us flee," said the fly;
"Let us fly," said the flea;
So they flew through a flaw in the flue.
What will happen to Mr. Milosevic when his flu ends?
Gogol Charlemagne
Conn. USA- Tuesday January 21, 2003 at 12:16 pm
Ryan,The book (Degraded Capability: The Media and the Kosovo Crisis) looks interesting, and I will buy it. From what I have seen it looks like it deals with an interesting question and one that I have given some thought to myself: Does the government manipulate the media, or does the corporate-owned media manipulate the actions of the government, or is some sort of combination of the two?
Thank you for the recommendation.
Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States - Monday January 20, 2003 at 1:05 pm
- Tuesday January 21, 2003 at 12:29 pm
Igor Jaramaz,
Glad to learn the blood feud ended hundreds of years ago in Cerna Gora and among Serbs well before the communist had to supress such a lovely democratic tradition as the Albanians do not only in Kosovo but in Tirana as well. The same source I quoted makes reference to one of those killings in a fancy Tirana hotel with foreign journalists present. Presumably they were enjoying a new freedom!
Gogol Charlemagne
Conn. USA - Tuesday January 21, 2003 at 12:43 pm
Gogol,I think that Milan Milutinovic will be treated very well by the Tribunal. I'll bet he will get provisional release and I wouldn't be surprised to see him testifying against Slobodan Milosevic.
Milutinovic has done nothing but be a lackey to the DOS ever since they assumed power. ( SEE THIS 2001 PRESS RELEASE FROM THE SPS )
I think that Milutinovic is a coward who is only out to save his own neck. He has already betrayed Serbia by not fighting against the DOS and governing according the platform he ran for office on. So I suspect that he will probably betray Milosevic in exchange for some favors from the tribunal.
For the benefit of Jari who thinks that I speak on other people's behalf. I should point out that I am only expressing my own opinion and I am not speaking for anybody else. : )
Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States - Tuesday January 21, 2003 at 12:43 pm
Andy Wilcoxson, your question is very interesting and dealth with by Noam Chomsky.
Mira A.
UK- Tuesday January 21, 2003 at 12:45 pm
Yes Walter, I had trouble accessing this site as well and went through some anxious moments speculating about my being blocked etc.Time for reality check. Could these things about MI6 infiltrating the tribunal in general and the Milosevic trial in particular actually be true? It sounds a bit far-fetched, but then again, so does the fact that the presiding judge, the head of the prosecution team and one of the amici curiae would end up being the same. Did they draw their names out of the hat and notice to their suprise that all were Britons? Is this what the make-up of an international tribunal should be like? I guess these anomalies are tolerated, because the actual truth would be even more hideous.
We may call them telltale signs, but we may just as well call them "circumstantial evidence". That sounds a lot more professional, and that is in fact what they are.
So why did Wladimiroff resign? Was he paid too little as he claims? Or was there another reason? Why was he discharged later? Could he have been discharged so that we wouldn't ask ourselves why he resigned in the first place? Could Wladimiroff have resigned because he found out why the amici curiae were in fact instituted for? Why is Tapuskovac now threatening with resignation? What does that leave of the three original amici curiae? Answer = Steven Kay, who William Spring has named as a MI6 agent on more than one occasion.
There is one more telltale sign. It is found in that WSJ article that I have been referring to. The article "conceded" that Milosevic makes mistakes. The example was the inexplicable blunder that he puts questions to which he doesn't know the answers. You mean that is a "mistake"? Maybe it is a mistake according to how the American trial lawyers are schooled. Normally, the reason one puts questions is that one doesn't know the answers. Everybody knows that the American lawyers are trained to be trial lawyers, but even then I would doubt if putting open questions would be categorized as a mistake. However, now that this has been condemned as a mistake, nobody would find anything odd in the fact that Milosevic now puts questions to which he knows the answers. Which again suggests that the WSJ article knows more than it says. It distracts the attention from what we should find really odd: where does Milosevic get the answers?
And the now-classic example is the Arkan murder. Did he get that information from the Yugoslav government? Was it an official decision, or was a Serb mole leaking the information? It is possible, indeed probable, that the Serb government would not dare to make a big fuss about the Arkan murder, even if it had known about it, in order not to endanger its good relations with the other governments. But where would the Serb government have got the information? Arkan was shot in January 2000, when Milosevic was still in power. If Milosevic had known the identity of the murderer, he wouldn't have made a secret about it. That means that if the information had originated from the Yugoslav government, the Yugoslav authorities should have found out the murderer's identity in the relatively small window of time between summer 2001 (when Milosevic was transferred) and January 2003. And then the question would still be how they found out about the details of the protection programme itself, which would make a foreign government a much more likely source of information.
I am slightly disappointed that the trial will be resumed after this bout of "influenza". The trial should stop. I am not attacking Milosevic. The trial is so "diseased throughout" that it is quite irrelevant whether he is guilty or not. Whatever he has to hide, if anything, could only amount to a scam within a scam, and whatever he may have done in the past seems almost venial in comparison with what is going on. This has been my position since last summer, so there is hardly any "sudden attack" here. It is just that some people have been so impressed with Milosevic's performance that they don't want him to stop, even if he should. I think what he was driving at with his contention about the illegality of the organ was that the trial should stop. It is the other people that have changed their minds, not me. What would be the desirable outcome of such a trial, which is no less of a farce than it was to begin with?
Jari Nousiainen
Finland- Tuesday January 21, 2003 at 12:46 pm
cont...There is a very interesting interview carried out on British TV by one Andrew Marr with Chomsky in 1996. Here is an extract:
"...Chomsky argued that ... journalists are a product of a state- and corporate-run filter system operative throughout politics, culture and education. Children are trained to defer to experts, to repeat what they are told by learned authorities, and to suppress their own doubts and independent conclusions. As children and adults rise up the educational and career ladder they are selected for obedience and subservience (such as the willingness, for example, to put aside reservations and do as they are told for the sake of career advancement). Winners are intelligent and free-thinking, but only within certain parameters. These parameters will generally not be recognized by those who 'succeed' but will seem to be "all there is"; a conclusion bolstered by the perennial human tendency to believe what it is convenient to believe..."
and here is the link
http://www.zmag.org/zmag/articles/sept96marrchomsky.htm
Mira A
UK- Tuesday January 21, 2003 at 12:55 pm
Andy, I am glad you made up your mind about speaking for somebody else. Otherwise you might be in trouble.On Jan. 11 you said:
"I am a member of the ICDSM, I have checked this with Jared Israel (the vice-chairman of the ICDSM) and I can tell you quite categorically that Mr. Verges is absolutely not a legal advisor to President Milosevic. Jacques Verges is an Algerian fascist and President Milosevic never meets with him or consults him in any way."
On January 18 you said:
"Why on Earth did you bring up Jared Israel? I read Mr. Israel's website and he has never once mentioned Verges. So how is it that you find yourself in a position to tell me what Mr. Israel might think about Mr. Verges?"
J N
Finland- Tuesday January 21, 2003 at 2:35 pm
Carla del Ponte’s main argument for not indicting the leaders of the KLA is that she has no evidence.I suggest that it is as plain as the nose on one’s face that she has the same evidence, neither more nor less, that she has used against Serbia’s past President Milutinovic: simply that he was one of the principal leaders of forces of whom it is alleged that they committed crimes against humanity in Kosovo.
That crimes against humanity were committed in Kosovo is beyond doubt. It is also beyond doubt that such crimes, in massive numbers, were also committed by the KLA.
The ICTY cannot claim to be a court of Justice unless it conducts itself with impartiality. Indicting only the leaders of the Serbian state security forces and ignoring the crimes of insurgent terrorist forces is blatantly unjust.
Ms del Ponte: You know the names of the leaders of the disbanded KLA: You have records of the crimes committed by the KLA in the statistics of such bodies as the UNHCHR and the Red Cross. There are many other sources. I recommend one in particular: The more than 72,000 archived articles from major news agencies and sources throughout the world collected by the Decani Daily News and covering the period from 1998 to date: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/decani/
So del Ponte why have you not indicted these men?
The KLA not only initiated a reign of terror in Kosovo it is also responsible for thousands of deaths, tens of thousands of injuries, massive destruction of property including more than one hundred churches and the continuing expulsion of some quarter of a million of Kosovo’ minorities from their homes.
What are you waiting for? Until the court acts with transparent impartiality it will remain manifestly UNJUST, an international joke.
Peter Taylor
Herts/UK- Tuesday January 21, 2003 at 2:50 pm
Jari,It is interesting the way that you appended the paragraph where I call Verges a fascist to the end of a completely different paragraph where I say that I verified with a third person that Verges is not Milosevic's lawyer.
But anyway I'm sick of arguing semantics with you. We both know this is a dumb debate, people can see for themselves what was said, so lets just both agree to drop it.
Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States- Tuesday January 21, 2003 at 4:00 pm
http://www.fair.org/press-releases/racak-update.html
Since the trial is stalled lets remember this statement made by President Clinton, at the time when he ordered bombing of Yugoslavia. The following quote is coming from the pointed to article. Jari, I agree with you, the trial is in such bad shape that it should be stopped, but it is not possible. When it comes to bombing of Yugoslavia its President Milosevic or President Clinton.
In President Bill Clinton's March 19, 1999 address to the nation announcing NATO's determination to launch airstrikes against Yugoslavia, he said:
As we prepare to act we need to remember the lessons we have learned in the Balkans.... We should remember what happened in the village of Racak back in January -- innocent men, women and children taken from their homes to a gully, forced to kneel in the dirt, sprayed with gunfire -- not because of anything they had done, but because of who they were.
It is the responsibility of U.S. journalists to try to find out whether or not this official account is true.
Pera Bora
Ottawa
Canada- Tuesday January 21, 2003 at 4:07 pm
Mistery of disappearance and reappearance of the bullets and bullet casings.
http://www.fair.org/press-releases/racak-update.html
Two quotes form the pointed to article:
"If we had found nothing in the ditch, the Finnish investigator Helena Ranta now says, then it would have been entirely a set-up by the Albanians," the Handelsblad reporter wrote. "But lying there were bullets, bullet shells, and even still a body part of one of the victims. That this was lying here was important, and how it was lying even more important." According to Ranta, the physical evidence was consistent with a massacre--not a set-up.
Girard was equally puzzled to find almost no bullet casings on the ground. "It was weird," he told the CBC. "Maybe somebody had picked them up." Back in Pristina that day, he told his colleague Christophe Chatelot of Le Monde about the apparent absence of bullet casings. Chatelot asked one of Walker's observers, an American army captain, why there were none on the ground. The captain replied, "That's because I took them, I collected them." The captain "confided to Chatelot that he'd picked up all the bullet casings once he'd arrived at the scene."
Pera Bora
Ottawa
Canada- Tuesday January 21, 2003 at 5:39 pm
http://www.pasti.org/tribaia.htm
I have not been able to find out who among the Serbian suspects is accused of the three massacres listed in the following quote. Is Mr. Milosevic, Mr. Karadjic or any other Serbian leader accused of any of these? If not does any body knows why?
Three explosions in Sarajevo, thanks to the mendacity and false evidence of the western leaders and media, of the Muslim and Croat authorities, caused irreparable damages to the Serbs. It was "the breadline massacre" (May 27, 1992), "Markale I massacre" (Feb. 5, 1994), and "Markale II massacre" (Aug.27,1995), with over 100 dead and much over 300 wounded. Without any proper proof, the Bosnian Serbs, were immediately blamed for all the carnage by the West, parroted hysterically by the Muslim and Croat officials, media. But very soon the available evidence, including the Western sources, proved that all three explosions and massacres of their own people had been masterminded by the Muslim authorities in Sarajevo - and that Markale II was prepared in collaboration with some unnamed western secret services, to compel and authorize NATO to destroy the facilities of the Bosnian Serb Army, the infrastructure of the Republika Srpska, and to become de facto an ally of Muslims and Croats. The original outcry after the explosions from the ICTY was, overwhelming, the western politicians, naturally including Mrs. Albright, and media created an atmosphere of hysteria. But, when it was shown later that the massacres had been prepared by the Muslim authorities themselves, the West (and the ICTY) remained silent. Neither Mr.Alija Izetbegovic, nor his generals were indicted, nor the NATO commander whose orders meant the death and destruction in the Republika Srpska, the use of the murderous DU (depleted uranium) bombs.
Pera Bora
Ottawa
Canada- Tuesday January 21, 2003 at 10:12 pm
Just a couple of thoughts about the involvment of different intelligence services:There are several witnesses that has been questioned by Kay about 'recieving money' from British intelligence or having talked to them and alike. Also there are the stories of Croatian intelligence in some cases. Nobody gets upset by this, it seems rather that we should be seeing the logic in it. But mentioning of the CIA or German involvment has to be interrupted and refrased by May and poited out as being an insult to the witnesses even to think of it. Why?
If Kay is MI6 then they really want to take credit for their involvment it seems. Why?
The witness who had been taken for a ride to the airport really seemed to me as he had been set up by some people. That they had said exactly the things put to him by Milosevic and also somehow informed Milosevic about it. I have already commented on it here. And that i think it will never be mentioned again, because nobody has the interest of revieling the story.
And of course the CIA-Walker-KLA linking seems highly likely. Walkers background and negative comments shortly before Racak shows he was desperate for something to happen. The fact that he was in close negotiations with KLA just a few days before does not even have to be proven, as it was known to everybody about the efforts to free the hostages taken by KLA. Wouldn't some sort of scam that would satisfy both the USA and the KLA have been almost unavoidable for them to come up with there and then if not before?
Another peculiar thing:
Everytime Milosevic says he does not know what happened (Racak, Vucuvar etc) or when facts of the constitutions or the historical circumstances come up, May always says that 'we will eventually have to decide what happend' or 'make our minds up about what the facts are' It sounds as if they are to decide in a civil case between to parties. But as Milosevic has pointed out, he does not have to prove anything. The judgement should be on the prosecution, if they have proven their case, and to cast doubts should be sufficient for the defence. As for facts, May should say that they will find out the facts, rather than 'make their minds up' or 'decide on' them...It is by the way very little explained exactly what the prosecution is supposed to prove. By the questions by primarely Robinson, true supreme command responsability in Croatia-part seems to be important but just mere 'influence' might be sufficient as in the indictment.
And then what about all more or less confused stories about the actual crimes. They don't seem more systematical and planned than the likewise confused stories in the Kosovo-part.Probably the judges haven't made their minds up yet, even about what critera they will have for their judgement. This is a unike case and it seems nor the prosecution or Milosevic or anybody knows what this court is to 'decide' about. The silence of the media everywhere partly is because nobody can really comment on it. Other than on Milosevic's health and the 'performance' of prominent witnesses from their own countries. And of course the fact that they are relieved that the dictator and butcher finally is taken to justice. This thesis that he was the sole 'problem' in the Balkan wars, is what they really would like to state and prove. Then almost everybody will be happy.
Ann-Marie Laios
Sollentuna
Sweden- Tuesday January 21, 2003 at 10:18 pm
I have found an answer to my previous question. For the Markale I incident accused party is General Galic. Indirectly he is accused of the Bread Line Massacre too. The command line of responsibility goes then to General Mladic and Mr. Karadzic. Mr. Milosevic is nowhere to be seen. The Markale incident is listed in the Second Schedule to the Indictment.
THE PROSECUTOR OF THE TRIBUNAL AGAINST STANISLAV GALIC INDICTMENT
http://www.un.org/icty/indictment/english/gal-ii990326e.htm
After reading General Galic's indictment I decided to read the Decision on the Motion for the Entry of Acquittal in his case.
Decision on the Motion for the Entry of Acquittal of the Accused Stanislav Galic
http://www.un.org/icty/Supplement/supp37-e/index.htm
The following two quotes are coming from the above posted decision.
The Trial Chamber also decided that it would not assess the credibility and reliability of witnesses as requested by the Defense, unless the Prosecution case could be said to have "completely broken down".4
The Trial Chamber held that "the origin of sniping fire need not be precisely established". Applying the test of the Jelisic Appeals Judgement, it stated that it is "sufficient that the Trial Chamber be satisfied that the evidence presented, if believed, would permit a reasonable tribunal of fact to conclude that the shot(s) originated from someone under the command and control of the Accused".9
My comment
The first quote is an interesting shortcut. If few witnesses are liars we will not test their credibility unless all the witnesses are crooks??? If all the witnesses lie using the same pattern, then prosecution case is sound, no discrepancies in the witness statements. No need to check credibility of the witnesses or anything else. Case proven.
All the persons listed in the indictment that were killed or wounded are Moslems or Croats, it seams that General Galic and his man had an incredible talent beyond reasonable doubt to guess peoples nationality from the distance. It seams to me that logic of a rule stated by the second quote goes like this: If we know the nationality of a victim we know the nationality of the killer. The victim is Muslim or a Croat. The killer must be a Serbian soldier. The shot must have come from the Serbian position. The killer's commander is General Galic. If we know who the commander is we know that he has ordered the soldier to kill the victim because he is a Serb and Serbs are vicious.
Reading of the whole Decision on the Motion.. is very indicative of flimsiness of the procedures of the ICTY and educative.
Pera Bora
Ottawa
Canada - Tuesday January 21, 2003 at 12:45 pm