 MILOSEVIC TRIAL DISCUSSION ARCHIVE |
| JURIST >> LEGAL NEWS - WORLD LAW >> Discussion >> Milosevic Trial Discussion Archive |
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Former Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic is on trial for war crimes in the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia at The Hague. This marks the first time a head of state has been personally prosecuted before an international criminal court.
Is Slobodan Milosevic getting a fair trial?
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- discussion archive
- Tuesday January 20, 2004 at 1:40 am
ICTY breaches its own charter!
"Shortly after the Kosovo war, NATO spokesperson Jamie Shea was asked whether NATO leaders could ever be indicted by the ICTY. Shea’s reply, which went largely unreported in the U.S. press, suggests a financial explanation: "Without NATO there would be no tribunal because NATO countries are in the forefront of those who have established the Tribunal, who fund this Tribunal and who support its activities on a daily basis" (Inter Press Service, 7/1/99). Research by Canadian attorney Christopher Black (Swans.com, 11/21/99) confirms that the U.S. and other governments have provided direct funding to the ICTY, even though the court’s charter prohibits it from accepting monies not dispersed by the regular budget of the U.N. "In the last year for which public figures are available," reports Black, "the United States provided $700,000 in cash and $2,300,000 worth of equipment."
A LAW UNTO THEMSELVES!
David
Oztralia - Tuesday January 20, 2004 at 1:48 am
The Kosovo Memory Hole...
'What Really Went On In Kosovo Before the War'
Or did the Media get it right but couldn't remember?
David
Oztralia - Tuesday January 20, 2004 at 3:01 am
I am hearing you well Mr. Tigelaar even though Milosevic in the telephone conversations did not hear Karadjic well. Are there any Serbs working for “Slobodna Evropa”? In the list of indicted under the authorship of Mr. Mensur Camo I don’t seem to see any Croats or Muslims. Tell me Mr. Tigelaar do you have any taped conversations between Tudjman, Mesic and Boban and between Isebegovic, Ganic and Sacirbeg????? If you have such conversations I am sure they would be more incriminating than what you have produced hereThe telephone conversation are interesting but not in any way incriminating. Wow how incriminating is it when the Croatian mothers are telling their sons to stay in the Yugoslav National Army because they will be safer there as opposed to being at home where they would be immediately drafted (mobilized into the Croatian Army and sent to the front.
Also interesting is Milosevic’s comment about Isetbegovic and how he negotiated. Milosevic states that Isetbegovic agrees to one thing then he asks for ten more concessions.
These telephone conversations are more evidence that the Serbian side was pushed into defending their rights. Mr. Tigelaar writes “Mr.Varavejke the answer to your questions can be found in the first paragraph at danas.org” . Mr.Varavejke had asked Mr. Tigelaar who prepared these tapes and how they will be used. Mr. Camo who seems to have prepared this material states that these tapes may or may not be used in the court. He claims that some of this was used in other cases. . It is interesting that Mr. Camo calls those who participated in the conversation as participating in the “zajednièkog zloèinaèkog poduhvata” joint criminal enterprise. The tapes show that the criminal enterprise was the nationalist camp of Tudjman and Isetbegovic and their foreign backers. I would say Carla use it because it spells out clearly that Muslims and Croats wanted war and the Serbs wanted unity. Use the tapes Carla and hang yourself one more time.
Walter Trkla
Kamloops BC
Canada- Tuesday January 20, 2004 at 3:08 am
This paragraph should have come after "For more concessions". It did not cut and paste with the rest for some reasonKaradjic warns that “Izetbegoviæ - ja to s ovog telefona koji se sluša mogu da vam kažem - on preko MUP-a, preko svojih ljudi u MUPU priprema graðanski rat” Isetbegovic is using his people in the Ministry of Internal Affairs to start a civil war” Milosevic responds “A šta mi nudimo nego integralnu Bosnu i ravnopravnu u Jugoslaviji” but what are we offering but an integrated Bosnia with equal rights in Yugoslavia. Milosevic also states that “Narod ne zeli rat” or people do not want war. In one conversation Karadjic states that he will do everything “Da se narod ne dize” so that the people do not rise
Walter Trkla
Kamloops BC
Canada- Tuesday January 20, 2004 at 3:48 am
"Free Europe", another project brought to you by George Soros and Co on behalf of a Global Endowment for Democracy. They supply the money to the ICTY so no surprise that their off-shoots have the tapes, which they also no doubt "supply" to the ICTY.
The CIA used to do all that but nowadays it's more kosher to do it through NGOs who are generously financed by grants from Congress. Saves the CIA having to go extra heavily into the drug trade to finance some of the less covert operations and ending up with Nicaragua type scandals.
David
Oztralia- Tuesday January 20, 2004 at 5:50 am
FrankThe $200 million spent by the OTP for their Milosevic case is easily arrived at by reckoning that the OTP has been at it 3 years (including pre-trial prep. work).
Do you think the OTP has mis-used even more than than $200 millions ?
Would you charactierize the OTP as something worse than 3rd rate hacks ?
AP V
NY
NY- Tuesday January 20, 2004 at 6:06 am
FrankI'd be pissed off also if I had been doing lots of unpaid volunteer work promoting the ICTY all these years and suddenly found out that the OTP was living high on the hog.
I'd love to see Nice's expense account records. All those first class airfares between the UK and Holland. All those side trips to Izbica for 'research'.
Imagine the Hotel Bills the OTP racks up in the Hague.
Why one day's worth of room service would run Domovina's server for a entire year.
If I were the OTP, I'd be milking it as much as I could also. No wonder the OTP dragged out the Milosevic hearings as long as 'lawyerly' possible.
After the Milosevic hearibngs are over it is back to the 3rd rate law firms back in the suburbs where most of the OTP staff came from.
Sure, I'd be upset Frank if I were you, the OTP pisses away $200 million and you still have to spring for your own bus fare.
AP V
NY
NY- Tuesday January 20, 2004 at 7:32 am
What a wonderful world ¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡ (please forgive them Satchmo)
M P
Panama- Tuesday January 20, 2004 at 11:08 am
That the so called "radio intercepts" are broadcast by CIA radio, plus the internet, is the clearest evidence of the rot this trial, and tribunal is all about.
Now, we have this ICTY self appointed spokesman pointing out to this audience about their availability: please get lost and keep the trial in the court room!
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La- Tuesday January 20, 2004 at 12:00 pm
I'm an NGO worker in the Balkans. A lawyer friend of mine referred me to this website. If I may, let me put in my two cents.First of all, I've been in Serbia, Macedonia, Bosnia, Croatia, Kosova/o and Albania. Most of the people from each of these countries are very much alike on the surface. The Macedonians and Serbs are somewhat more hostile than the rest, towards Americans, even those who are there to help. Their attitude toward their neighbors is extremely hostile, particularly toward the Albanians in Kosovo/a. It has been my experience that the Albanians are the most hospitable, regardless of where they come from. Their attitude toward the the Serbs and Macedonians, if not friendly, is at least not hateful. The Bonians and Croats show some negative feelings toward the Serbs but none, to speak of, towards the Albanians and Macedonians.
The Serbs by far are the most problematic and downright intolarant toward everyone else. I'M SORRY IF I'VE OFFENDED ANYONE BUT, THIS IS MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE.
Jason King
Wash. D.C.
US- Tuesday January 20, 2004 at 12:16 pm
Jason King: I hope you enjoy your fat salary for dishing the dirt on the Serbs as much as you enjoy the unctious attentions of the KLA and its new variant forms.Maybe this has something to do with the Serb's hatred of you Yanks and your poodle Blair.
Oh and this.
Peter Taylor
Herts/UK- Tuesday January 20, 2004 at 12:19 pm
Jason , how will you feel towards the ones that bombed your country with no reason , how will you feel towards the ones that protect the ones that are killing your people slowly but surely , will you spred your "loving arms" an kiss them , sure your entitled to an opinion but it can't be skin deep .
M P
Panama- Tuesday January 20, 2004 at 12:29 pm
Jason KingIt so nice to hear from someone like you that have experienced Balkans as you did. Since you mentioned Kosovo, tell me were you in Prizren in August of 1999, when tolerant Kosovo Albanians burned alive Lela Dimic and her baby? Were you there when tolerant Albanians blow up a bus killing 11? Were you there when they decapitated Serbian on the Town Square? Or when they shot dead 14 Serbian farmers working in a field. Tell me more about freedom of movement today Serb have in Kosovo? Tell me how did effect you personally when tolerant Albanians shot on children in Gorazdevac while they were swimming in the river killing 2 boys? Tell me could I as a Serbian walk at night (or day) in Pristina without police protection? Tell me how are the bordellos of Pristina? Did you have fun? Did you stop by Serbian Priest living in South Mitrovica under 24 hour protection? Did it effect you at all? As for being nasty - you should see us when we have 78 days of bombs falling on our heads in the name of humanitarism. So pardon me for not being impressed with you, but at least you know whom you are dealing with (contrary to Albanians that will love you to the last dollar you send).
Dakic Ana
serbia- Tuesday January 20, 2004 at 12:35 pm
Welcome Mr. King. It would be of assistance to this forum if you would provide more details of your experience. For example, with which NGO are you associated; the lawyer who referred you to this website; specific locations within the former Yugoslavia in which you worked; what type of work were you involved with in these locations; the nature of your interactions with the populace; anecdotal or substantiated illustrations of your encounters,etc. That is, what are the details of your personal experience? I don't believe anyone on this forum is offended by the truth -- quite the contrary. But, since this forum is asking the question, 'Is Milosevic getting a fair trial?', it would be a better contribution if you could also explain how your observations are germaine to that question.
M Donne
Canada- Tuesday January 20, 2004 at 12:38 pm
Well Mr. Jason King if someone cuts off your balls and continues to dangle them in front of you and keeps telling you to be a good boy and Jason’s of the world will put you back together you might understand why they would be annoyed at you.Mr. King writes “Albanians are the most hospitable, regardless of where they come from. Their attitude toward the Serbs and Macedonians, if not friendly, is at least not hateful”. Well Mr. King in what sand dune have you got your head buried. The killing of Serbs, destruction of their churches and intimidation is a daily occurrence in Kosovo and now the Albanian minority wants to do the same in Montenegro. The Serbs have every right to be outraged and the fact that they are not turning the other cheek surprises you. What surprises me how uninformed you are.
Walter Trkla
Kamloops BC
Canada- Tuesday January 20, 2004 at 12:53 pm
It is interesting that the level of tolerance and Brotherhood and Unity was at its highest level in Former Yugoslavia just before the USA government, numerous Ngo-s , UN and NATO got involved. It is also interesting that SCG is most ethnically mixed area in the Balkans and Serbs are blamed of intolerance by numerous ``NGO experts``. It is even more interesting that Croatia, Bosnia and Kosovo got rid of significant number of their Serbian population with full support of the USA State Department, NGO-s, UN and NATO. It so happens that from Nazi Belgrade`` not a single Albanian was ethnically cleansed and from tolerance rich Pristina all 40.000 Serbs and other non-Albanians were ethnically cleansed. Oh I am wrong. Just a hand full of them is still live there in Pristina. I’M SORRY IF I'VE OFFENDED ANYONE BUT, THIS IS MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE!
Pera Bora
Ottawa
Canada- Tuesday January 20, 2004 at 1:11 pm
I would not beleive a word what Jason said. There is no such a person from US that would experience such things among all Balkan nationalities as it was described by him.Despite unfair portrait from PR companies, Western media, and how others threat Serbs, Serbia (besides Montenegro) is still the only, place where all ex Yugoslavian nationalities live in great numbers as opposed to ethnically "hospitable" Slovenia, Croatia, BIH Federation and Kosovo.
Pero Peric
Canada- Tuesday January 20, 2004 at 1:23 pm
Either you exhibited an extreme ignorance one that I would attribute only to a casual visitor who visits Yugoslavian land for no more tan a week, or you are a deliberate plant by either Albanians or Croatians.No one who had spent an extended period in the war ravaged Balkans would have such a simplistic view of the behavior patterns of various nationalities of the former Yugoslavia.
Only if you give specific account of places and the duration you have spent in Yugoslavia, we shall contemplate to take your comments into account.
D. Jovanovic
USA- Tuesday January 20, 2004 at 1:28 pm
Mr. Jason KingEither you exhibited an extreme ignorance, one that I would attribute only to a casual visitor who visits Yugoslavian land for no more tan a week, or you are a deliberate plant by either Albanians or Croatians.
No one who had spent an extended period in the war ravaged Balkans would have such a simplistic view of the behavior patterns of various nationalities of the former Yugoslavia.
Only if you give specific account of places and the duration you have spent in Yugoslavia, we shall contemplate to take your comments into account. ( I am sorry to have to repost my first post )
D Jovanovic
USA- Tuesday January 20, 2004 at 1:38 pm
An NGO "worker" at the Balkans posting from Wash.D.C. El quijote would've said "cosas veredis Sancho" you'll see things Sancho .
M P
Panama- Tuesday January 20, 2004 at 1:42 pm
"Dick: We 'hired' these guys to be our junkyard dogs …` Jason King, This statement of USA ambassador to Yugoslavia Robert Frasure, was reported by Dick Holbrook. Since you are familiar with what happened in the Balkans, would you care to comment on this forum who the junkyard dogs are and against whom they were deployed to commit crimes of murder and ethnic cleansing in the name of the USA stile of democracy and tolerance building in the Balkans. Can you please pay special attention and let me know why would one call their closet allies in the Balkans ``junkyard dogs``
Pera Bora
Ottawa
Canada- Tuesday January 20, 2004 at 2:12 pm
NGO: Nato Goon Offender?or Non Governmental Organisation member
This could be a ‘flame’ sure but equally, given the deplorable record of NGO’s, King could be an example of the quality of staff they employ.
Like many of the West’s well documented corrupt officials - one famously ripping off millions from Kosovo’s needy electricity corporation - he is possibly well pleased with his service in Kosovo’s plentiful brothels. Hence his ingratiating comments in this direction.
“The Albanians are the most hospitable”
As a self proclaimed NGO official his appalling ignorance of Albanian intolerance to Kosovo’s minority populations in Kosovo is breathtaking and inexcusable.
When he claims that:
“The Serbs by far are the most problematic and downright intolerant”
is he just displaying his racist ignorance or regretting the fact that the Serbs won’t grease his palm?
When he claims he is there “to help” we must presume he means he is there to help himself!
Mr King: if you’re truly here “to help” then stick to the question: ‘Is Milosevic getting a fair trial’?.
Peter Taylor
Herts/UK- Tuesday January 20, 2004 at 2:19 pm
Peter Taylor,The photo in the link that you gave above is obviously "doctored." I'm refering to the photograph of men in KLA uniforms holding the supposed head of a Serb. How do you expect to fool intelligent people with such an amateur effort. You should be ashamed of yourself for such a blatant forgery. This photo has been dismissed by the authorities as a ridiculous fake.
Jason King
Washington D.C.
USA- Tuesday January 20, 2004 at 2:27 pm
"This photo has been dismissed by the authorities as a ridiculous fake."If so, would you kindkly Mr. Jason, provide link to the findings of these "authorities"?
Pero Peric
Canada- Tuesday January 20, 2004 at 2:32 pm
Jason did you express same level of mistrust and suspicion when Walker claimed that in Racak Serbian police shot 40 Albanians? Five years later we have chief pathologist Helena Ranta of Finland, that investigated scene, coming out (yesterday) and saying that there was no massacre in Racak and that some bodies have been moved. Or you jumped "on the wagon" with rest and hysterically shouted "burn them, burn them"?
Dakic Ana
Serbia- Tuesday January 20, 2004 at 2:46 pm
Well maybe is not the head of a Serb Q.-what's the difference IT IS STILL HUMAN ! ASSHOLE ¡ Jason King? you ain't Jason and less King , go back to your criminal loved ones
M P
Panama- Tuesday January 20, 2004 at 2:59 pm
Now really Pero, please take a good look at the photo and see for yourself. There is a clear lack of proportion in the size of the head. This is a very poor attempt at doctored photography. If one were to use PHOTO SHOP, a much better counterfeit could be made.
Jason King
Wash.D.C.
USA- Tuesday January 20, 2004 at 3:04 pm
Bravo Ana Dakic!
P M
USA- Tuesday January 20, 2004 at 3:04 pm
The Quiet American
Graham Green
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La- Tuesday January 20, 2004 at 3:05 pm
This photo has been dismissed by the authorities as a ridiculous fake.I am wondering who the 'authorities' are? Care to enlighten us?
P M
USA- Tuesday January 20, 2004 at 3:07 pm
Also Mr. King, I am wondering how you made your judgements that the Serbs and Macedonians are intolerant ones. Doesn't it strike you that people do not like it when their very identity is being attacked by NGO 'do-gooders' who have come to 'teach' them the lessons of 'guilt' and 'reconciliation' after mercilessly bombing them for three months?
P M
USA- Tuesday January 20, 2004 at 3:09 pm
How can you know the head is 'disproportionate'? How many severed heads have you really seen, so that you could be an expert in detecting severed-heads-forgeries?Or is it because the victims are Serbs that this is so implausible? I guess Serbs can't be victims, only monsters.
...which reminds me of Shylock, where he talks about his humanity, his pain, etc. Apparently, Serbs are the new Jews, at least in the Balkans arena.
Pp Mm
UUSA- Tuesday January 20, 2004 at 3:41 pm
King is obviously a fake..........best not to encourage his racist outburstsRemi
Gashi
Ramush
Drini
AP V
NY
NY- Tuesday January 20, 2004 at 4:34 pm
To whom it may concern,REPEATING A LIE A 1000 TIMES DOES NOT MAKE IT TRUE. The Serb learned this the hard way.
A NATO pilot!
Jim The Bomber
AN AIR FORCE BASE
AMERICA- Tuesday January 20, 2004 at 4:50 pm
YOU GOT THAT RIGHT ¡ WMD'S IRAK
KISS ASS
ALBANIA- Tuesday January 20, 2004 at 4:51 pm
I have one word for you Jim The Bomber SOMALIA and September 11. When you love Muslims (Bosnia, Kosovo) so much you deserved what happened to you. BTW even Hitler and 600 years of Turks could not teach Serbs a lesson - you little USA pilot with small penis and big ego certainly can not do it.
Rabid Cetnik
Proud Serbia- Tuesday January 20, 2004 at 5:13 pm
Sorry to disappoint you Rabid Cetnik, but I am a woman, Jim is just my nickname. There were many women bomber pilots that flew missions to Kosovo. We hit our targets too, with great accuracy! BTW, The only pilot shot down was a woman. She was rescued quickly though. A few days later she was back flying bombing missions over Belgrade. Remember how the Serbs thought they did such a great thing by accidently shooting down her plane. Well, the people who were dancing on the wing of the downed plane were exposing themselves to a highly carcinogenic material. Which means there's a very high probability that they will get cancer. Well, as they say in France, "C'EST LA VIE."
Jim The Bomber
An Air Force Base
America the Beautiful- Tuesday January 20, 2004 at 5:21 pm
Jason King:Read Tom Walker in The [Toronto] Globe and Mail
Sources in the rebel group, who asked not to be identified, have admitted that many of the KLA’s victims, both Serb and ethnic Albanians deemed loyal to Belgrade, endured brutal deaths. One fighter said that two Serb police officers captured in the western village of Glodjane were executed by being dragged behind cars, and that bodies of Yugoslav army soldiers were gratuitously mutilated.
For “gratuitously mutilated” read “decapitated” as the article goes on to explain.
So you see I am not forging anything as you would have others believe only relaying information from many sources. Take this matter up with Tom Walker.
I get the impression that there is something atrocious in Muslim culture that enables them to chop bits of humans, dead or alive, with equanimity. Witness also the many dreadful axe murders of several elderly Serbs in Nato occupied Serbia. But these atrocities are no worse than those of their condoning Nato masters - at least in the Balkans - who effect their mutilations with cluster bombs dropped cowardly from three miles high.
My information is that the KLA members in the photographs are still being investigated by UNMIK. I also have information that the victims of this atrocity have also been identified and named as soldiers abducted by the KLA. The bodies have never been found: along with 1,350 other victims of these “most hospitable” Albanians. If you have information that the investigation has been terminated please post details here.
Sitting in a café within the Louvre, Paris, in the early eighties my wife and I struck up a conversation with a couple of middle aged US tourists. During the conversation they told us that in Italy they had been offended by banners declaring, “Yanks go home”. Almost in tears they demanded to know “Why should we go home?” I admit we were equally baffled. In the light of subsequent events in the Balkans it is all becoming clear.
And thanks to Trust-me Tony The Dastardly Eagle has got The Perfidious Albion in tow for its inhumanitarian adventures.
Peter Taylor
Herts/UK- Tuesday January 20, 2004 at 5:29 pm
Rita you are back!
Dakic Ana
Serbia- Tuesday January 20, 2004 at 5:32 pm
Something atrocious in Muslim cultureNow why would US bomber pilots support conduct like this? And a woman too!
Peter Taylor
Herts/UK- Tuesday January 20, 2004 at 5:35 pm
Jim The Bomber I did say that you had a small penis. I was right.
Rabid Cetnik
- Tuesday January 20, 2004 at 5:44 pm
I just received this:
Racak (99) : the key expert of Nato turns against the official media version and the Hague tribunal New elements demonstrate this was the big medialie of Nato
In Januari 99, the whole Western press presented the "Racak massacre" as the "justification" for the Nato invasion of Yugoslavia.
It was said that the Serbian army had "massacred" 40 innocent villagers. But today Finnish pathologist Helena Ranta, who led forensic investigations into the case, says for the first time that Serb security troops were also killed.
This prooves that it was not a "massacre of civilians", but a fight between two armies, as we wrote in our book Monopoly ("Nato conquerring the world", Brussels 2000, Spain 2000, New York 2004).
Ranta told B92 (Belgrade) today that she had received information about the death of Serb troops in Racak in 1999. "I was told there were victims of both Serbian forces and the Kosovo Liberation Army murdered in Racak on Friday, January 15, 1999. I didn't see the list of Serb victims. I was shown only a list of victims from the ranks of the Kosovo Liberation Army", she said. She also questioned why photographs taken before the arrival of international monitors had not been published. Instead, only those taken by OSCE monitors have appeared in public.
In the Berliner Zeitung (17/I/04), Ranta also said the work of the Hague tribunal (against Milosevic) regarding the so-called Racak massacre was incomprehensible. The former head of the forensic team the European Union sent, criticized the UN tribunal for not following up the evidence that there was heavy fighting between Serb soldiers and the Kosovo-Albanian fighters during that night. "At that time I received information that proved that several Serb soldiers had been killed as well. Unfortunately, we will never know the exact number of Serb soldiers that died that night." It would be appropriate "to ask the tribunal why they are not interested in that number."
In our book Monopoly, we had exposed the dubious role in this affair by the US diplomat William Walker, a CIA agent. We have been accused of denying the evidence.
This revelation shows it is necessary to reopen the debate about Yugoslavia. The whole "communication" about Kosovo was orchestrated from Brussels by Alastair Campbell, Bliar's assistant, who just resigned when he was unmasked after the recent medialies about Iraq.
Our recent film The Damned of Kosovo shows that the situation now in Kosovo is dramatic : a veritable ethnic cleansing of all non-Albanian nationalities : Serbs, Roms, Jews, Moslims, Turks, Gorans... Maffia and terrorism dominate Kosovo today while Washington installed a huge military basis just on the spot of his project op pipe-line through the Balkans. Washington rents installations for bombers for 99 years ! How can this help the local populations ? It is time to reopen the debate and find if Washington lied also about Kosovo.
Ranta criticized the indictment against former Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic in the case of Racak for mostly following the Walker version. "When Ambassador Walker said that there was a massacre at Racak, this statement had no legal value. I declared at that time that the OSCE-observers forgot to take all steps necessary to secure a crime scene: isolating the area, refusing admission to all unauthorized persons and collecting all material evidence."
Ranta demanded that in addition to the OSCE pictures the tribunal also use the pictures taken by two additional photographers, shot several hours prior to the arrival of OCSE-observers. The pictures show "that at least one of the bodies was moved afterwards". That body is not seen on OSCE-pictures."
BIBLIO : - Michel Collon, (Monopoly Nato conquerring the world), New York, april 2004. - The Damned of Kosovo, video (78') by Vanessa Stojilkovix & Michel Collon English, French, Spanish, Italian, Dutch. - Debate (in French) Jamie Shea / Michel Collon Kosovo, media and war, Brussels June 2000 Video : michel.collon@skynet.be - International Action Center, New York, Paris 21. January 1999 English: "Who is William Walker: "WARHAWK BEHIND U.S. KOSOVO POLICY - AMB. WALKER COVERED UP REAL MASSACRES IN EL SALVADOR" - H. Ranta, Report of the EU Forensic Expert Team on the Racak Incident, 17.3.1999, Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Finland, http://usinfo.state.gov/regional/eur/balkans/kosovo/racak.htm, http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/Kosovo/Kosovo-Massacres2.htm - Guardian (London), 21.1.1999 (quotes from OSCE observers)
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La- Tuesday January 20, 2004 at 5:48 pm
Hello D. Jovanovic, physicist. I was wondering if you would let unter on the NYT forum know I am out for good, as I have difficulties logging in, and frankly, the forum has lost its appeal for many reasons, not least the fact that nothing new is being discussed, and some of the best posters post rarely, if ever. I have enjoyed the passion of euro, the unusually perceptive and balanced commentary of sirivan, unter, and kos, the wealth of knowledge and culture of balkanwise and okanta, the humor of karonis, and of course the inexorable quintet of professional Serbophobes (that would be baika, jeffo, turdko, KKKtomislav, and dilly). I have been on the forum for 3 years, have learned a lot, and communicated with some very interesting people, but I've had enough.I look forward to conversing with you in the future, via this forum, and particularly when important issues regarding the Milosevic trial, and the history and future of Serbia and the Balkans, are raised.
P M
Madmerv2
USA- Tuesday January 20, 2004 at 5:50 pm
All of the sudden a NATO pilot, an NGO worker in Washington D.C., and an Albanian suddenly materialize out of nowhere.how interesting...
Can anybody say "provocateur"?
Tell me Mr. King which NGO do you work for?
Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States- Tuesday January 20, 2004 at 5:50 pm
Peter don’t waste your time with this Jason Jim Bomber person. Your one word is worth more then his /her paragraphs. It is obvious that this person does not know as Alvin Toffler said that “Knowledge is knowing … or knowing where to find out”. This person has a certain amount of intelligence, just enough to be ignorant.
Walter Trkla
Kamloops BC
Canada- Tuesday January 20, 2004 at 5:54 pm
P M
Remember "no-pasaran" or did he leave before your arrival?
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La- Tuesday January 20, 2004 at 5:57 pm
Of course, I managed to connect the dots, you were also excellent, I must concede. Thanks for your posts. Are you still a die-hard Marxist these days?
P M
USA- Tuesday January 20, 2004 at 6:02 pm
Most welcome. More than ever!
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La- Tuesday January 20, 2004 at 7:31 pm
Ms NATO pilot:Cluck, cluck, cluck, cluck, cluck. I'm sure you recognize your native tongue -- Chicken. Bombing maternity hospitals and schools from 35,000 ft. because, with all your drug-funded technogarbage, because, not only were you terrified of facing the great fighting forces of Serbia, you couldn't even find them. If you had faced them, you would have leaned a lesson in how to fight with heart for love, not by pushing a button for greed. As for bringing down your stupid 'smart' stealth, the Serbs said it best: 'Sorry, we didn't know it was invisible." Before posting again, perhaps you should check your dictionary for words such as 'brave' and 'honourable'. NATO's flabbies could take a lesson in courage from the young Serbs who defended their bridges with nothing more than a target painted on their t-shirts. NATO will go down in history as a synonym for SHAME -- a disgrace to the human race.
M Donne
Canada- Tuesday January 20, 2004 at 7:58 pm
M.Donne, In case you missed it, I said earlier that I am a young women. Jim is only my nickname. My real name is quite feminine. Actually, I didn't know it but, when I was flying bombing missions over Kosovo I was about one month pregnant. I am now the proud mommy of a beautiful little girl. We named her Kosova. Some day when she is older she will realize that she also flew bombing missions over Kosovo.How does it feel for you chetniks to know that a pregnant women once bombed you miserable little country.
As General Patton once said, "In war, the idea is not to die for your country but, let the other poor S.O.B. die for his country." I guess this is something the Serbs have not figured out yet.
Jim The Bomber
An Air Force Base
America the Beautiful- Tuesday January 20, 2004 at 8:07 pm
Please ;eave Mr/Miss/Mrs Bomber alone. Can't you see that the bent double hatred for Serbs is punishment enough for this creature? There is nothing you can say to this person that could hurt more than his/her own sad, sick and obssesively hateful thoughts. Pity is in order here. That and therapy.
Anna P
California- Tuesday January 20, 2004 at 8:16 pm
Ms NATO pilot:Seems you are not only chicken, but also reading-challenged -- I addressed you as 'Ms'. So you wish to bring shame upon your daughter in both the name of Patton and the name of NATO. In NATO's case, the "other poor SOB" was probably a pregnant woman who will, because of your actions, never hold her unborn baby. I think it's time that you sat down and tried to figure a few things out for yourself.
M Donne
Canada- Tuesday January 20, 2004 at 8:20 pm
Sorry, Anna, good advice given and taken, even if belatedly.
M Donne
Canada- Tuesday January 20, 2004 at 8:39 pm
sure you did Rita name your baby Kosova. Like any american pilot would leave a message about its mission. what happened when you woke up?
Dakic Ana
Serbia- Tuesday January 20, 2004 at 8:50 pm
Frank,Why isn't the Friday, January 16, 2004 video posted on bard.edu's website yet?
Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States- Tuesday January 20, 2004 at 8:56 pm
Has anybody else noticed that no transcripts are available for the three days of Borislav Jovic's testimony on Nov. 18, 19 and 20? Transcripts are available for every other day, including every day in December. Remember the speed with which the ICTY posted transcripts of Wesley Clark's testimony, with all its "Milosevic knew about Srebrenica" bullshit? Could the strange absence of the Jovic transcripts have anything to do with the disastrous nature of his testimony for the prosecution? I only ask because I want to know.
Robert Hessen
Seattle
Washington- Tuesday January 20, 2004 at 9:55 pm
SERBIA and MONTENEGRO - WORLD EU-SCG-DIALOGUE-POSTPONED EU, SCG political dialogue postponed - official 20:16 BRUSSELS , Jan 20 (Tanjug) - Due to the political situation in Serbia, whose new government has not been constituted yet, political dialogue between the European Union and Serbia-Montenegro (SCG) has been postponed, spokeswoman of the EU high representative for foreign policy and security Cristina Gallach told Tanjug Tuesday evening. She noted that a meeting of EU and SCG officials had been planned for the beinning of next week, at the time of the conference of EU foreign ministers in Brussels. (end) US-KOSOVO-ANALYST There was no genocide in Kosovo - Cato Institute analyst 20:08 WASHINGTON , Jan 20 (Tanjug) - There was no genocide in Kosovo-Metohija, analyst Doug Bendow of the Cato Institute said in a study made public today for the Heritage Foundation. In the beginning of 1999, Yugoslavia was troubled by dirty fighting between ethnic Albanians and Serbs in Kosovo-Metohija. This was a tragic conflict, but of a much lesser scope than most ethnic or religious conflicts worldwide, Bendow said.
vasile ianos
nj- Tuesday January 20, 2004 at 10:00 pm
OSOVO-RACAK-JUDGE KLA members, not civilians, were killed in Racak, Kosovo, in 1999 - judge 20:30 BELGRADE , Jan 20 (Tanjug) - Investigating judge Danica Markinkovic, who investigated the incident in Racak, Kosovo-Metohija, in January 1999, told Tanjug Tuesday that members of the terrorist Kosovo Liberation Army, not civilians, had been killed in that village in a clash with Serbian police forces on January 15, 1999. The Racak incident was the immediate motive for NATO air strikes on the then Federal Republic of Yugoslavia in 1999, after the then head of the OSCE observer mission William Walker (US) claimed that ethnic Albanian civilians were massacred in Racak. (en
vasile ianos
nj- Wednesday January 21, 2004 at 6:44 am
Hi all!Can you give me your thoughts on my question: Given that the US has clearly put pressure on the ICTY to wrap (itself) up asap, would the capture of Karadic and or Mladic reverse this decision or as they have already been judged guilty by the Media and many western governments, the trial(s) would be run under very short time constraints?
To the NGO person,
how can you expect anyone to place any credibility on you opinion(!) if you have so far refused to give any details? As for the photo, you failed to provide a link or a reference to which "authorities" have dismissed the photo. As far as I can remember, when someone dies, their bodies starte to decompose and give off a lot of noxious gas. Some of this remains trapped and give the impression of 'enlarged' features. Can any MD's enlighten me on this?Miss B-52 pilot (allegedly) was probably dropping cluster bombs, a weapon which just about every other government in world save the US and Great Britain has publically renounced.
The bright yellow cbu bomblets have been found by the ICRC and other organizations to be particularly attractive to children and others who either mistake them as toys or food packets. I'm glad that Miss B-52 will be able to bring up her child in a land free of these toys (up to 20% failure rate thus effectively becoming landmines). How ironic that she takes such pride in delivering these weapons directly to children. No need to wait until Christmas.
P.S. supporting the KLA was the equivalent to bombing the US Coast Guard who are trying to interdict Colombian cocaine.
Alan Lamb
UK- Wednesday January 21, 2004 at 7:14 am
Doug Bandow is a senior fellow at the Cato Institute, a Townhall.com member group.The real Democratic Party dud Doug Bandow (archive) January 19, 2004http://www.townhall.com/columnists/dougbandow/db20040119.shtml
WASHINGTON - Retired Army Gen. Wesley Clark has become the great hope for establishment Democrats seeking to stop front-runner Vermont Gov. Howard Dean.
Yet Clark, who has based his campaign on his foreign policy credentials, actually has the strangest foreign policy views of anyone in the presidential race.
While Democrats were firing away at each other in the aftermath of the capture of Saddam Hussein, Clark was at the Hague seeking to hype his candidacy for president of the United States by testifying at the United Nations trial of former Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic. Clark, who prosecuted the 1999 war against Yugoslavia, suggested that the tribunal be considered as "one of the venues" for trying Saddam.
That's actually a foolish idea. Hussein's crimes were first and foremost against the Iraqi people. Iraqis should hold him accountable.
Moreover, however satisfying it is to see Milosevic in the dock, the idea that the United Nations has a right to create artificial ex post facto law should discomfit anyone who believes in the rule of law. Milosevic deserved to be tried, but in Yugoslavia.
The ultimate absurdity of concocting special international panels with limitless criminal authority was demonstrated when Belgium claimed global jurisdiction over all human rights abuses. Activists filed charges against political figures as varied as Fidel Castro and Ariel Sharon. Belgium finally repealed the law after critics of the Iraq war threatened to target Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld.
But Clark's greatest foolishness is his bizarre contention that Kosovo warranted military action while Iraq did not.
Clark is presenting himself as the anti-Bush with military experience. Alas, Clark is no Dwight D. Eisenhower.
Whatever Clark's virtues as a military leader, his experience in Kosovo did not exhibit them. In that conflict Clark led the world's most powerful military alliance against a small, impoverished country beset by a messy guerrilla war. It didn't take the least bit of talent to win.
In fact, only a genius could have found a way to lose. As Clark almost did.
First, he, like others in the Clinton administration, thought that a few bombs - indeed, the threat of a few bombs - would solve the problem. When they didn't, the alliance lacked a strategy.
Second, after the fighting had ended, he ordered British Army Lt. Gen. Sir Mike Jackson to block Russian troops from occupying the airport in Pristina, Kosovo. "I'm not going to start the third world war for you," Jackson replied.
At least most Americans would have known Clark's name had he managed to get NATO into a shooting war with Russia after the West had peacefully won the Cold War.
Even worse, however, is Clark's contention that his war was good while President George W. Bush's war was bad. I happen to think that neither was necessary, but set that aside. No serious person can claim that Yugoslavia posed a greater threat than did Iraq.
In early 1999, Yugoslavia was suffering through a nasty fight between ethnic Albanians and Serbs in Kosovo. It was a tragic conflict, but far smaller and less deadly than a score of ethnic and religious wars around the globe. Genocide it was not.
Indeed, the mass expulsion of ethnic Albanians that dominated TV screens occurred only after NATO went to war. It was a result, not cause, of the conflict. And Clark's victory has led to ethnic cleansing of Serbs, Jews, Gypsies and non-Albanian Muslims.
Milosevic was a nasty character, but Clark's claim that there was "an imminent threat" of war is just plain silly.
Milosevic's regime was bankrupt and isolated. It made no pretense of developing weapons of mass destruction. It wasn't capable of conquering its neighbors. It had no means to hurt the United States.
Nor was war a last resort after diplomacy had failed, as Clark said. The United States tried to impose its own settlement, which neither the Albanians nor the Serbs supported. Washington offered an ultimatum, not diplomacy.
Iraq was completely different. Hussein had engaged in a policy of domestic brutality on a massive scale, killing tens, and probably hundreds, of thousands of people.
He ran a police state, attacked two of his neighbors, killing hundreds of thousands more, and, it seemed, was developing weapons of mass destruction. He was capable of cooperating with terrorists, though those connections remain unproved.
Of the two, Clark thinks Yugoslavia posed the greatest danger? And warranted war without international sanction?
Such passes for foreign policy analysis from a leading presidential candidate.
Winning the presidency will require that the Democratic nominee be taken seriously on foreign policy. Clark is not that candidate.
Dakic Ana
Serbia- Wednesday January 21, 2004 at 7:59 am
What does Serbia needs E.U.and NATO for? , she has lived and proudly emerged from invasion , wars , aggression , what's the big deal of joining her assassins? she can feed her own people she is rich enough to survive on her own there will always be somebody to stand by her and there will not be sufficient "cluster bombers" to brake our pride and determination regardless of how many quislings western money can buy . "nitko ima sto Srbin imade" .
M P
Panama- Wednesday January 21, 2004 at 10:37 am
AndyOf course the video link is down.......Frank is still in shock from our discussion last week.
Frank's been volunteering his time and pennies all this time for the 'cause'.........meanwhile the OTP's favorites get fat consulting contracts and per diems..........So far the OTP has sucked up $200 million, and Frank has gotten any of it.
Andy, wouldn't you be upset too ?
AP V
NY
NY- Wednesday January 21, 2004 at 10:58 am
Gogol,On January 19, 2004 at 2:24 pm you are suggesting, that news "do not need to be verified"?
I am surprised, - and I disagree! Even if said report was carried by Tanjug, which "has proven to be a perfectly reliable source of news for many years", I do need facts, before I would be able to make any 'judgment', or even to form a qualified opinion.
That's why I repeat my request for information on the alledged incident at the village of Matica in Kosovo on 6 January, 2004, when Danish Kfor soldiers may have "demolished houses", leaving "a chaos" behind them. It matters to me if these allegations are justified or mere hearsay - and verification in my opinion should matter to any serious JURIST discussion participant including Arben Quosja, 19, 2004 at 11:42 am).
(I note with regret that this forum is increasingly taken up by mere nonsense a la Arben, Jason and 'Jim the Bomber, - and second-hand American crap from 'a senior fellow at the Cato Institute' like:
"Milosevic was a nasty character!")
May I kindly suggest, that the forum stick to the issue of whether the socalled 'trial' of mr. Milosevic is fair or not? I admit, that the report on the actions of the Danish Kfor troops is not directly related to this discussion, - but the handling of such rumours is surely a reflection of the credibility on part of a variety of participants.
No, Gogol, - the Danish Minister of the Defense has not denied the incident at Matica. Whether mr. Sven Aage Jensby is "just keeping silent" I do not know, - how would I?
I have so far had no answer to my letter (dated 15 January, 2004), but I will let the forum know as soon as I am in receipt of an answer. I suggest however that you should assume that the Danish Minister is taking these allegations seriously until otherwise proven.
Peter Taylor! Asking myself "why no western reporters (visited the site to) report on the damage at Matica", I can come up with two possible answers. Either:
1) Nothing much was going on in Matica on 6 January anyway (and the villagers did not manage to convince anybody except possibly the local TV in Zvekan), or
2) There was indeed some sort of 'brutal search', - but it all seemed to the Press guys to be according to the usual NATO practice in the occupied Serbian province of Kosovo!
Until I have further information I do not know what is true (and this forum is offering little help in the matter). I would like to know:
a) What was the goal of the alledged search carried out by Danish Kfor in the village of Matica in Kosovo on 6 January, 2004?
- Did the Danish soldiers operate on their own or in cooperation with local police or anybody else? Did Kfor meet with any kind of resistance, armed or otherwise, on part of the villagers? Did the villagers get any kind of assistance (against the occupation force)? Did Kfor (and/or the local police) achieve their goals?
b) Were anybody killed, injured or even hurt physically in consequence of the Danish soldiers actions?
- Were any of the villagers arrested? Or otherwise taken care of by the Danish Kfor troops or local police?
c)How many and which houses were the Danish troops 'destroying', why, and what damage did they exactly do?
- What was the nature and extent of the chaos the Danish soldiers were alledgedly leaving behind them? What, if anything, was preventing the villagers from continuing their usual business (which under the circumstances I am aware isn't necessarily enviable anyway)?
Godfred Louis-Jensen
Copenhagen
D E N M A R K- Wednesday January 21, 2004 at 11:04 am
Madmerv,Great to hear from you. I too have stopped participating on the New York Form for the same reasons as you did.
Yes I will let Unter know of your decision.
In connection of a sudden influx of “nuts” onto this Forum, I believe that their sole purpose is to deflect the serious discussion and to sabotage the Forum. THEY SHOULD BE IGNORED!
This is is the only remedy against them I know.
Note for instance the remark of this “ female pilot”. People dancing on the "carcinogenic" wing of an airplane. ( presumably Stealth bomber). It is carcinogenic for the Serbs only and not for the pilot and the service crew who would be in contact with it for days and years. Absolute hogwash!
Same goes for NGO. He is now focused on “debunking” a photo of a severed head. He is clearly an Albanian. Just a fake. DISREGARD HIM!
As I said above the only way to shut down these clowns is not to respond to their outrageous lies and statements.
D. Jovanovic, physicist
USA- Wednesday January 21, 2004 at 11:15 am
Whilst looking for details about women combat pilots serving in Kosovo (the first time ever that they have been allowed to fight), I found this: MC [Military Cross]- On 14 Jan 99, Warrant Officer 2 Christopher CLARK was part of a Kosovo Verification Mission (KVM) when it came under intense small arms fire from the Kosovo Liberation Army. Following 15 minutes of firing in which two verifiers were wounded, CLARK displayed considerable courage and personal bravery. He took command of an armoured KVM vehicle, positioned it in a blocking position between the small arms fire and the wounded casualties. Dismounting under fire he then rescued them to safety.This was the day before the infamous Racak "massacre" and also (according the the
House of Lords "Hansard" when British KVM members "secured the release yesterday of
eight Yugoslav Army officers captured on 8th January by the Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA).".
There is no mention on the OSCE website about this incident, and a later incident the OSCE falls over itself backward to make excused for the KLA -
Deliberate shooting at KVM vehicles. Robin Cook on the 15th didn't even mention the KLA
Why isn't the incident of the 14th reported and why is it so hard to track down? I have read elsewhere that the KLA were stopping the KVM from going to Racak because they had yet to set up the "massacre" site.
Alan Lamb
UK- Wednesday January 21, 2004 at 12:00 pm
Godfred
This is what I said:
I am no bothered at all by the fact that only Tanjug is reporting the incident, involving brutality perpetrated against the Serbs of Kosovo by the Danish KFOR contingent. This kind of event is nothing new and Tanjug has proven to be a perfectly reliable source of news for many years. News don't need to be verified, as you put it, by another news agency, and I wouldn't expect any NATO country news-media to corroborate Tanjug's reports, especially when they are so damning to NATO in their "humanitarian" endeavors.
It is entirely possible that no independent confirmation of the evnt will ever reach you or me, but that in itself does not prove anything. And what is, really, to cover up and event?
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La- Wednesday January 21, 2004 at 12:01 pm
AP V, please:WHEN did "The KLA commander at Racak" testify as you claim (ref.: Monday January 19, 2004 at 10:28 am)? Monday January 19, 2004 at 6:16 am).
Kindly provide references as fully and clear as possible - since this matter is of crucial importance!
Peter Varavejke's conclusions on the basis of photos of "a shot guy" in Racak both with and without skullcap in the morning of the 16th of January, 1999 were drawn also by mr. Milosevic during his cross-examination of an (embarrassed and diffident!) Ambassador William Walker. On that occasion mr. Milosevic confronted the American war criminal - who is no doubt among the organizers of the rigging at Racak - with a series of photographs, concluding that:
"...like you have a big door revolving on a small hinge, this photograph shows that the whole scene has been rigged..."!
(Ref.: Trial Transcripts, p.6861-64 HERE
Godfred Louis-Jensen
Copenhagen
D E N M A R K- Wednesday January 21, 2004 at 12:09 pm
Godfred
I found
Incident between KFOR and local Serbs | 13:48 | SRNA
KOSOVSKA MITROVICA -- Wednesday - The international peacekeeping force in Kosovo has confirmed an incident took place last night between a group of Serbs and a Danish KFOR patrol.
KFOR spokesman Chris Thompson said that two people had been arrested following the incident in the northern town of Kosovska Mitrovica.
Srna news agency quotes Serb sources in the town as saying the Danish soldiers stopped and assaulted two hospital workers. B92 is not Tanjug, but oh . . . well!
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La- Wednesday January 21, 2004 at 12:10 pm
Gogol C
SL- Wednesday January 21, 2004 at 12:13 pm
The L I N K to the B92 Danish-Kfor incident.
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La- Wednesday January 21, 2004 at 12:33 pm
From B92:
Milosevic has three months to prepare defence, judges say | 15:05 | SRNA
THE HAGUE -- Wednesday - The tribunal in The Hague has confirmed Slobodan Milosevic will have three months to prepare his defence against 66 counts of war crimes.
The appeals chamber rejected a request made by the court-appointed amicus curiae - “Friends of the Court” - for Milosevic to be granted more time, said tribunal spokesman Jim Landale.
Landale said Milosevic would have three months, beginning February 17 when the prosecution is due to rest.
The spokesman said judges had postponed until further notice a hearing at which former Croatian Serb leader Milan Babic is due to enter a plea on charges of crimes against humanity and violations of the law or customs of war.
Landale confirmed that the trial of former Bosnian Serb parliament speaker Momcilo Krajisnik would begin on February 3.
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La- Wednesday January 21, 2004 at 12:44 pm
I would suggest to the readers of this forum that Milosevic never intended to drive the innocent Albanian population out of Kosovo. Certainly the population in the area of conflict was displaced and it is certain that the JNA wanted to drive the KLA out of Kosovo. If a plan existed for expulsion why was everyone silent on this issue until the time NATO was planning to bomb Yugoslavia? The bombing was related to the Rambouillet ultimatum since NATO’s ultimatum was not related to the supposed expulsion.In all the threats and counter threats by the Americans, Holbrook and Clarke in particular, I never saw any threats related to the expulsion. Furthermore, if such a plan to expel innocent people existed why would the so called standard bearers of Democracy by cluster bomblets, like Wesley Clark, meet with a supposed human rights violator like Milosevic.
The question of the plan to expel people is simply a smokescreen for bombing because the Serbs refused the ultimatum at Rambouillet. If the West knew of the plan why did they not prepare for its consequences or why did they not bomb sooner to prevent it?
All of you on this forum know that when NATO threatened to bomb the JNA the Serbs seem to commit an act of barbarism to give NATO the green light to bomb. The massacres in Sarajevo for example occurred when NATO had the planes in the air. In Kosovo the verifiers (OSCE) were all over the place and the Serbs again provide them with Racak and thousand of persons on the move. How convenient and how stupid. How many times can the world accept the same lie???
The OSCE never once expressed a concern that people would be expelled from Kosovo. They did write about internal displacement. Even my peasant mother during WWII knew to hide her children in the forest as the German Stuka screamed as it dove towards its target..
It is more credible to believe that NATO knew what the results would be if they started bombing. People flee war zones. We know that Afghanistan had 5 million displaced, Cambodia 2 million, Vietnam 4 million at any one time. For Christ sake Rome was sacked by displaced barbarians as the Mongols ravaged Europe. It doesn’t take a physicist to figure this out. What do you think Mr. Jovanovic, are you the only one on this forum that understands this????
We also know that NATO bombing encouraged the KLA to intensify their attacks on civilians, both Serb and Albanian. I would suggest that it was in the KLA’s interest to see the refugees rather than in Milosevic’s.. It was in the interest of Isetbegovic to see the carnage in the market place and the breadline rather than Karadjic’s . The answers to these questions can be found with President Clinton, Secretary of State Albright, Prime Minister Tony Blair, Foreign Minister Joschka Fischer and Danish Prime Minister Poul Nyrup Rasmussen, State Department spokesman James Rubin and NATO spokesman Jamie Shea. THESE ARE THE LIARS NOT MILOSEVIC. Is Milosevic guilty of these charges? NO! If you read the telephone intercept so kindly provided by Mr. Tigelaar, even though Milosevic swears a lot, his main interest was to preserve the unity of Yugoslavia. For that I salute him and wish him all the best..
Walter Trkla
Kamloops BC
Canada- Wednesday January 21, 2004 at 12:53 pm
Walter, what are your thoughts on Luise Arbour becoming a judge of the Supreme Court of Canada?
Dakic Ana
Serbia- Wednesday January 21, 2004 at 3:04 pm
Ana I have written about Arbour in many of my earlier postings before you came on the forum. She graduated from the prestigious Osgood Hall Law School. The same school that Christopher Black graduated from, so that is positive. She chose to get to the Supreme Court through the back door favor done favor returned. First black mark on otherwise a progressive court,
Walter Trkla
Kamloops BC
Canada- Wednesday January 21, 2004 at 3:50 pm
Well I have to say that compared to Carla she at least had a small idea of sence.
Dakic Ana
Serbia- Wednesday January 21, 2004 at 5:25 pm
ICC:UK cluster bombs may be war crime
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La- Thursday January 22, 2004 at 2:37 am
I am back - just in case you care:-)
First, congratulations for the intelligent way you avoided the provocateurs.
Second, please comment/correct the observations below in case you find them relevant.
1. The question of legal fairness is legitimate only when the legal necessity of the trial has been established according to the generally accepted legal practices (GALP). This s to say that "Is Slobodan Milosevic getting a fair trial?" cannot be answered until we know why Milosevic *must* be prosecuted in an international court.
2. The generally accepted legal practices require that international courts may act only after proving (a) the legal necessity of prosecution in an international court, and (b) the legal competence of the court in judging given cases.
3. Legal necessity for ICTY: I found no UN official document claiming that the national (Yugoslavia) judicial system cannot or is unwilling to operate according to generally accepted legal practices (GALP).
4. Legal competence of ICTY: Legal competence is usually derived from legal precedents. Milosevic trial is unprecedented, at least in the sense made by the Jurist in the discussion header. In the absence of legal precedents, a court may proceed only in two ways - either according to constitutive principles or according to sovereignty principle. I found no UN official document on the grounds of ICTY.
5. As far as I know, there is no International Constitution (hence no mechanisms for appealing or repealing laws). This means that international judiciary cannot be justified (rationale for ad-equating means to aims) on legal grounds. If we take the UN Constitution for an International Constitution, the it is easy to show that the ICTY is illegal.
6. The only other way to justify ICTY is according to sovereignty principle. This means that Milosevic is at the Hague at the Majesty's pleasure. In this case, the outcome is solely at the discretion of those who have the World Sovereign's ear, hence all questions regarding fairness are absurd.
7. It seems to me that ICTY was set based on sovereignty principle. That would explain the judicial configuration of the Hague trial. It also explains the striking difference with the Tribunal for Rwanda. I found no official documentation explaining the procedural differences between the tribunal for Yugoslavia and for Rwanda.
REF: The International Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda, Rules of Procedure and Evidence, U.N. Doc. ITR/3/REV.1 (1995), entered into force 29 June 1995 at http://www1.umn.edu/humanrts/africa/RWANDA1.htm.
BTW: In Rwanda, the Canadian General Dallaire, called to testify, just like US General Clark at The Hague, for the prosecution, had the integrity to admit that his memory is not reliable, that his book was a compromise with the Publisher and so forth. The striking difference between the two Generals behavior merely reflects the striking difference between the Rwanda and the Hague Tribunals (also that between Canada and the US, I'd like to believe). I confess that Gen Dallaire has restored my belief: it is possible for military men to be men of honor - A Few Good Men, I'm afraid.
In short: if the ICTY is indeed set on sovereignty principle, then there is no hope for Milosevic, except a revolution in International affairs. The Patriot Act, etc., clearly show that the US has embraced the sovereignty principle, as it is now using the judiciary to undermine, if not violate even the US Constitution with impunity, at his Majesty's pleasure. No, the 600 prisoners at Guantanamo are not held there illegally, only unconstitutionally. They are held at His Majesty's Pleasure - sadly, I am not saying this ironically.
John North
Canada- Thursday January 22, 2004 at 4:01 am
English Common Law the base of the ICTY. Not the best choice for an international Tribunal particularly when there are no precendents!
How suitable!
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La- Thursday January 22, 2004 at 4:14 am
True, there is no International Constitution but there is the UNO Charter and the UNO General Assembly which has created the International Criminal Court while the ICTY and the ICTR were created by the Security Council, truly unprecedented!
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La- Thursday January 22, 2004 at 8:37 am
It all works on the might is right principle. Small fish gets swallowed by the big fish. We're back to the feudal order where the lords call the shots and the serfs do as they're told. Laws are no longer relevant because the source of all laws in any state is the constitution. When the national (US) and international constitutions (UN) are ignored, then we can no longer speak of any laws. The fastest and biggest gun becomes the "law".
As for Jim the Bomber: "My real name is quite feminine. Actually, I didn't know it but, when I was flying bombing missions over Kosovo I was about one month pregnant"...
Pray tell please how one gets pregnant by being f...ed in the head?
David
Oztralia- Thursday January 22, 2004 at 8:40 am
I agree with Walter Trkla in "that Milosevic never intended to drive the innocent Albanian population out of Kosovo", - and I would add as my considered opinion, that the President never did so either (January 21, 2004 at 12:44 pm)Nevertheless mr. Milosevic is accused of exactly that under the ICTY (or NATO!) Indictment of May 1999, which alleges a "campaign of terror and violence directed at the Kosovo Albanian population...with the objective of removing a substantial portion of the Kosovo Albanian population from Kosovo in an effort to ensure continued Serbian control over the province."
PS:
The SLOBODA/Freedom Association appeals: Stop the Hague machinery of crime!
After the Appeals Chamber of the Hague Tribunal refused the appeal of Amici Curiae demanding the three months period assigned for the preparation of President Milosevic's case to be prolonged, SLOBODA/Freedom Association released the following
STATEMENT:
SLOBODA/Freedom Association condemns the latest decision of the puppet false court at The Hague to refuse the possibility of prolonging the three months period determined earlier as deadline for President Milosevic to prepare his case.
This decision confirms the criminal and illegal character of the "tribunal". It threatens the life of President Milosevic and steps on his fundamental rights. The decision reflects the panic of the "tribunal's" well-paid bureaucrats who openly put themselves into service of Wesley Clark and other war criminals.
By this decision, the "tribunal" attempts to remain deaf over the numerous appeals of international factors, statesmen and progressive international public.
But even this decision will not prevent the triumph of the truth, represented by President Milosevic, over the crime, injustice and tyranny.
SLOBODA/Freedom Association calls upon the entire domestic and international public, governments and responsible political factors to act immediately and stop the Hague criminal machinery.
Belgrade, 21 January 2004
(relayed as received by:)
Godfred Louis-Jensen
Copenhagen
D E N M A R K- Thursday January 22, 2004 at 8:54 am
Well, - that mr. Milosevic is falsely accused of attempting to "drive the innocent Albanian population out of Kosovo" (as Walter Trkla put is above) appears from the Indictment, which alleges a "campaign of terror and violence directed at the Kosovo Albanian population...with the objective of removing a substantial portion of the Kosovo Albanian population from Kosovo in an effort to ensure continued Serbian control over the province."Ref. F COUNTS 1 - 4, Clause 91. HERE
Godfred Louis-Jensen
Copenhagen
D E N M A R K- Thursday January 22, 2004 at 9:46 am
"I found MORE," Gogol claims (Wednesday January 21, 2004 at 12:09 pm).More WHAT, Gogol? What on earth do you mean by "the B92 Danish-Kfor incident"?
Give me/us a break! I am sorry to have to suggest, that you are messing around: There may be no other relation between the incident reported on 8 January (by Tanjug) and the incident reported on 21 January (by B92) than that both of these alledgedly involved Danish Kfor-troops. So what?
I suggest that you are acting to confuse the forum. You certainly should be "bothered" if only one agency (whether Tanjug, B92 or whatever) is reporting a particular incident!
Your 'argument' that "this kind of event is nothing new" is at the level of the ICTY Prosecution, I'd say: Good for nothing!
News (like evidence) certainly "need to be verified," - quite contrary to what you are claiming (January 21, 2004 at 12:00 pm).
Let me take this further (back to what this discussion is all about):
It is entirely possible that no independent confirmation of the innocence of mr. Milosevic will ever reach you or me, - but that (which in itself does not prove anything!) should not prevent any of us from seriously searching for such confirmation?
By merely messing around we would be doing the opposite. Or what do you think?
PS: Gogol! What I gained from your recent postings - if anything - was merely the idea of approaching KFOR spokesman Chris Thompson on the matter (on either of these matters, that is). Thank you, - but honestly: There is altogether too much crap brought into this otherwise important "Milosevic Trial Discussion", alás not only from mere "provocateurs", it would appear.
We do not have time for trivial nonsense, - which is an insult to mr. Milosevic and anyone fighting for the truth in this particular case of his.
Godfred Louis-Jensen
Copenhagen
D E N M A R K- Thursday January 22, 2004 at 11:34 am
Godfred
I honestly can't go to Kosovo to check the veracity of Tanjug or B92 when it comes to reporting incidents involving KFOR Danish contingent. Are you saying the Danes are held to a different standard of scrutiny? I am arguing that no NATO country is going to VERIFY Tanjug report when indeed the report is detrimental to NATO. As to your suggestion that I am "acting to confuse the forum" let me say that I don't have the foggiest idea about what are you talking about. All what I have done is to quote Tanjug on the 6 January incident and B92 yesterday on what seems to be another incident ,confirmed according to B92, by KFOR itself.
Again, news can be covered up by oposite interest and I repeat NO NATO NEWS OUTLET is going to quote Tanjug at their expense.
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La- Thursday January 22, 2004 at 11:57 am
I don't understand why the people on this site are defending Slobo. In Serbia during the early 90's everyone was in the streets blowing whistles in hopes of getting him out. Now that he is out and where he belongs, in prison, your group here is defending him as if he were an angel. It seems that most people here would agree to have Milosevic prosecuted if only the Croats, Muslims and the KLA prosecuted. So what if the Serbs have to be first in court, that does not mean the the others won't go to the Hague later. To me it sounds like a case of INATI, WHICH IF YOU DON'T KNOW ALREADY IS TURKISH WORD. Come on guys, let's play for the long term result and go first to the Hague. We all were guilty.
Dragisha Suvic
Cleveland
US- Thursday January 22, 2004 at 12:25 pm
PLEASE! not another "arben"
F*ck off
Bloody drugdealers- Thursday January 22, 2004 at 12:41 pm
Dragisha, if you don't understend, read carefully archives of this discussion first. Most of the regular members explained their motivation very clearly.Do you think that Slobodan Milosevic is gulty as acussed and is geting a fair trail? Is a fair trial important in your opinion? What do you mean when you sad "We are all guilty"? Who are we? What is de guilt? What is your guess, when will other players in the holle mess be prosecuted? What kind of positive results are you expecting in the long term if all of the propaganda and false aqusations are not confronted? What would you do diferently in SM place?
Rade Plecas
Amsterdam
The Netherlands- Thursday January 22, 2004 at 12:43 pm
Dear Gosp Suvic .- This isn't about defending Slobo , this is about the legality of the bombardment of a country that had an internal problem of terrorism and foreign driven separatism , there was killing of civilians hundreds of miles away from the troubled territories , they were bombing the north of Yugoslavia because of strategic reasons , like if Serb army will go to hungary come around Macedonia and atack Albanian terrorists in Kosovo "brilliant Clark's strategy" fair enough for mentally retarded listeners . main objective of this forum is to show the real truth behind the ICTY and the interests created around this mockery of justice . MILOSEVIC SHOULD HAVE NEVER BEEN BROUGHT TO THE HAGUE , IF HE HAD TO FACE JUSTICE , SHOULD HAVE BEEN DONE IN BELGRADE , this "trial" is nothing but the justification of an aggression to a soverign country and its citizens and if that is hard for you to understand , please tell me the kind of detergent they used to brainwash you .
M P
Panama- Thursday January 22, 2004 at 1:01 pm
Mr. Suvic,Let me address some of your arguments:
1) You stated: “So what if the Serbs have to be first in court, that does not mean the others won't go to the Hague later. “.
Judging by many signs Hague “Court” will size to operate soon for the “lack of funds”. I very much doubt that anybody else but Serbs will be the ones prosecuted.
2) The second statement is: “In Serbia during the early 90's everyone was in the streets blowing whistles in hopes of getting him out.”
Whatever were the reasons why people of Serbia wanted Milosevic out of the government, these are not the reasons for which Milosevic is accused of in the Hague. What this Forum debates is the charade this court is doing in trying to prove the guilt of Milosevic for all the crimes in former Yugoslavia and for the disintegration of the country.
D. Jovanovic
USA- Thursday January 22, 2004 at 1:13 pm
Hello suvic! come on over!
Albanian Gay
Retards- Thursday January 22, 2004 at 1:22 pm
You are so right Albanian, retars like you does seek company of other retards.
- Thursday January 22, 2004 at 1:50 pm
Milosevic draws on top secret Croatian documents | 15:36 -> 15:42 | B92
THE HAGUE -- Thursday - Slobodan Milosevic has produced minutes of top secret meetings in Croatia, during his cross-examination today of a former close associate of late Croatian president Franjo Tudjman.
The documents quote Tudjman and other Croatian leaders discussing the need for Croatia to be “cleansed of Serbs,” reports B92’s correspondent in The Hague.
According to the evidence, during a meeting on May 30, 1995, Tudjman agreed to a plan to stage an attack on a Croatian vehicle on the Zagreb-Belgrade highway, to provide a motive for the launching of Operation Flash. The operation brought down the breakaway Serb republic in Croatia and saw thousands of refugees flee to Serbia.
Milosevic said the documents indicated Operation Flash was being planned at the same time as Zagreb was negotiating a peace deal with Croatian Serbs.
The witness, Hrvoje Sarinic, said the claim was a “flagrant lie.” Serbs in Croatia had been planning to evacuate as early as 1991, he said.
Sarinic, the former head of Tudjman’s cabinet, testified yesterday about meetings at which Milosevic and the late Croatian president discussed splitting Bosnia between Serbia and Croatia. Milosevic’s cross-examination today barely touched on the claim.
The defendant denied links with Zeljko “Arkan” Raznatovic, whose “Tigers” paramilitary unit are said to have been responsible for a string of atrocities in Croatia and Bosnia.
“You don’t have a single document or phone conversation that could like with to Arkan,” said Milosevic.
“I don’t, but then again, you’re famous for leaving documents lying around,” replied Sarinic.
Pera Bora
Ottawa
Canada- Thursday January 22, 2004 at 4:21 pm
Gogol Charlemagne,It appears to me that the "Godfred Louis-Jensen" who posted on Thursday January 22, 2004 at 9:46 am is an imposter.
I don't think that the real Mr. Louis-Jensen considers it to be "trivial nonsense" that Danish KFOR troops are rampaging around Kosovo and assaulting Serbian hospital workers.
This imposter "Godfred Louis-Jensen" is just one more example of the recent campaign of provocation this forum has endured lately.
The prosecution's case is nearing an end (11 days to go), and these provocateurs know that when the case ends a lot of people will come here. Their objective is to turn this forum into a sewer so that nobody will find anything useful here when they come here in the aftermath of the prosecution case.
Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States- Thursday January 22, 2004 at 5:04 pm
Vendetta violence plagues Serbia BELGRADE, Serbia-Montenegro (AP) -- The prime minister was slain by a sniper, and his deputy gets e-mailed death threats. The foreign minister just learned he was on a hit list, and the defense minister has tightened his personal security. More than three years after the end of former Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic's autocratic regime, Serbia remains shrouded in a menacing atmosphere of intimidation. It's the politics of fear -- a daily reality for those who dare attempt to weed out crime, corruption and brash nationalism from a government where all three long have flourished. Now, with the republic veering sharply to the right after big ultranationalist gains in Dec. 28 parliamentary elections, there are worries that Milosevic-style vendetta violence could intensify. "We are all targets," Foreign Minister Goran Svilanovic told The Associated Press... http://www.magicvalley.com/news/worldnation/index [...] ...And you guys think you should be able to rule others. Serbs can't even rule themselves!
Arben Qosja
Chicago
USA- Thursday January 22, 2004 at 5:37 pm
Andy, thanks for staying so alert! I was perplexed by the recent posting attributed to Godfred Louis-Jensen, but the obvious just eluded me. Boy, oh, boy, there sure is sabotage to be wary of lately.
M Donne
Canada- Thursday January 22, 2004 at 5:43 pm
Arben: It is good that you recognise the political mess Nato's meddling has installed in Belgrade.Perhaps you would care to comment upon the Nato installed powers in Kosovo? Especially on Hashim Thaci: accused of murdering several political rivals by Bujar Bukoshi among others. And on the appalling treatment meted out to Kosovo's minority populations.
It baffles me that after two and a half years of incarceration Milosevic is still blamed for all of Yugoslavia's troubles.
You really must begin to look for another scapegoat. Billygoat Slobo is getting too long in the hoof.
Peter Taylor
Herts/UK- Thursday January 22, 2004 at 5:54 pm
Arben,
It is true Serbia is in crisis. Bosnia Hercegovina is also in limbo, like Kosmet its future undecided by the rivalries within the Great Powers. Albania, well talking about feuds, things between the Tosks and Ghegs are not what I will call very friendly neither.
There is one difference tough, while Kosmet, BiH is under NATO military occupation Serbia is not. So, in a way what is going on in Serbia is the Serbs business, there aren't, at least not yet, big foreign companies building a silly rail road to service a CORRIDOR 8 pipeline which will make Albania as happy as Georgia is, that is to say, poorer and more divided than ever before. Instead of pointing at the ills of others you should ask yourself if perhaps what you're defending is not part of the same problem.
As for my self, I am happy when everybody is and if not I pray for the return of Ivan the Terrible and his oprichnina since boyars and quislings are bad for people's health.
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La- Thursday January 22, 2004 at 6:18 pm
Godfred: Why does your media not investigate and your ministers not comment upon these alleged brutalities:Last night - 20 January 2004 - at approximately 23,00 hours members of Danish KFOR assaulted Serb hospital workers Budimir Lukic and Svetislav Nesic, both employees of Kosovska Mitrovica Hospital, near the Tri Solitera settlement in North Mitrovica.
Nesic and Lukic, who were going home, ran into a mobile checkpoint in a dimly lit street where Danish soldiers intercepted them, firing warning shots into the air, threw them into the mud and made them lie there, according to eyewitnesses, for about ten minutes.
Peter Taylor
Herts/UK- Thursday January 22, 2004 at 8:47 pm
Serbia news: "The federal cabinet today approved humanitarian aid to Iran after last month's earthquake in Bam.Material aid worth about 150,000 euros has been donated by the Serbia-Montenegro Red Cross Association, Jugoimport and a number of manufacturers of blankets, sleeping bags, medicines, food, beverages, clothing and shoes. (B92)
Kosovo news: "Four years after it was 'liberated' by a NATO bombing campaign, Kosovo has deteriorated into a hotbed of organized crime, anti-Serb violence and al-Qaeda sympathizers" (National Post)
M Donne
Canad- Thursday January 22, 2004 at 9:19 pm
Mr. Suvic American government has surpassed Gobles’s skill in propaganda. When you listen to the State of the Union Message by Bush and compare it to Hitler’s Nuremburg speeches you will see the similarity minus the Roman salute. Propaganda comes in many ways. The crowds in Belgrade that you write about and claim that everyone was against Slobo shows to me that the propaganda has you hooked.During the Prague Spring (Dubcek) American Media while photographing the crowds in Wenceslas Square showered us with pictures of crying Czech’s while the Russian media showed the same crowd showering the Russian tanks with flowers. Propagandists can turn a sow’s ear into a silk purse and you need to be vigilant.
Milosevic has been blamed for everything that went on in the Balkans as well as the Lewinsky affair. If you read beyond the headlines you will see that Milosevic was not a NATIONALIST nor was he in favor of the civil wars that NATO instigated..
Arben what have you done you manipulator. Your web page can’t be found. Just tongue in cheek about the web page Arben the flowers and the tears in the Prague Spring were also a fabrication.
Mr Suvic you write” So what if the Serbs have to be first in court, that does not mean the others won't go to the Hague later”. Being first or being second is not the issue here. The issue is that the Serbs are “premus unter pares” and if that is the case why are Croats and Muslims not in the docket??????? Mr. Suvic what pond are you fishing in for your information. It seems quite muddy to me and all you are going to catch there are suckers.
Walter Trkla
Kamloops BC
cANADA- Thursday January 22, 2004 at 9:24 pm
Momcilo Perisic has arrived in the Hague to testify against Milosevic.
Dan B
Canada- Thursday January 22, 2004 at 9:37 pm
It appears Perisic is about to testify in early February. This is the same Perisic who was caught hob-nobbing with CIA operatives by way of acting as US embassy staff.
Interestingly, PERISIC IS THE ONLY SENIOR SERB FIGURE WHO HASN'T BEEN CHARGED WITH ANY CRIME despite the fact that he was Chief of General Staff 1993-98. Coincidence?
Sarinic testified and spoke volumes about nothing. All he did was lay open the way for Milosevic to bring up the Tudjman strategy of "cleaning" Croatia of the Serbs who lived there for centuries. Zwaan testified and let the cat out of the bag about where his interests as an expert lay. When Milosevic mentioned other genocides and Apartheid, Zwaan told Milosevic that he should look closer at his own doorstep. Robinson obviously didn't miss it but May and Kwan will no doubt rule his concerns as irrelevant in a "dissenting" judgement.
Mr Moderator,
Could you please archive old posts more frequently so we can all get reasonably timely access to the page?! Once a week instead of 2-3 weeks would be great. Either that or please increase the 30 second execution time for those of us who are not in the corporate broadband world.
David
Oztralia- Thursday January 22, 2004 at 11:12 pm
Ex-Yugoslav army chief to testify in Milosevic case BELGRADE (Reuters) - Former Yugoslav army chief Momcilo Perisic left Serbia Thursday to testify for the prosecution in the war crimes trial of ousted President Slobodan Milosevic, a legal source said. "Perisic left for The Hague today where he is to appear on February 7 as the last prosecution witness," a source in Perisic's lawyer's office told Reuters. Milosevic has been on trial at the U.N. war crimes court since early 2002 on charges of genocide, crimes against humanity and war crimes in Croatia, Bosnia and Kosovo in the 1990s. Perisic, Yugoslav army chief of staff from 1993 to 1998, was fired by Milosevic in 1998 because of disagreements over the province of Kosovo and after warning Milosevic he could not win a war with NATO. NATO bombed Yugoslavia in 1999 over the repression of ethnic Albanians in Kosovo and Milosevic was overthrown a year later. Perisic faces charges at home of spying for the United States. They were brought against him in 2002 but have not come to trial because of his parliamentary immunity as a deputy. The former chief of staff was sentenced in absentia to 20 years in prison by a Croatian court for the shelling of the port city of Zadar in 1991 during the breakup of Yugoslavia. Belgrade media have reported the tribunal obtained a "safe conduct" guarantee from Dutch authorities that he would not be arrested during his visit to testify.
Dan B
Canada - Tuesday January 20, 2004 at 3:08 am