 MILOSEVIC TRIAL DISCUSSION ARCHIVE |
| JURIST >> LEGAL NEWS - WORLD LAW >> Discussion >> Milosevic Trial Discussion Archive |
—————————————————————————————
Former Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic is on trial for war crimes in the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia at The Hague. This marks the first time a head of state has been personally prosecuted before an international criminal court.
Is Slobodan Milosevic getting a fair trial?
————————————————————————————
NOTICE: Comments posted to this discussion board are solely the responsibility of individual posters, and not of JURIST, its owner, operators, host or staff. JURIST reserves the right to block or remove posts that are in violation of law or that advocate illegal acts, that are obscene, disruptive, defamatory, threatening, harassing or abusive, that are in breach of intellectual property rights, rights of publicity or rights of privacy, that are advertisements or solicitations, or that are not related to the topic being discussed.
————————————————————————————
- discussion archive
- Wednesday January 22, 2003 at 1:45 am
Further on the trial on Nikola Ribic, the Canadian Serb accused of hostage taking in Bosnia: According to the Edmonton Sun “A judge reluctantly declared a mistrial yesterday in the case of an Edmonton man charged with taking a Canadian UN observer hostage in the former Yugoslavia.Justice Douglas Cunningham of Ontario Superior Court ruled after lawyers for Nicholas Ribich argued that their defense hinges on national security issues, some of which are now before the Federal Court of Canada Appeals Division.
"With regret, I am going to have to declare a mistrial," the judge told a disappointed-looking jury.
The court is to reconvene March 7 to consider a new trial date.” It would be interesting to know how many other SECRET documents LIES are in the files of NATO nations. The TRUTH is buried deep in national security. In reality how can anyone get a fair trial when documents are hidden under the guise of national security? Judge Cunningham of the Supreme Court of Ontario deserves the title of JUDGE for this ruling; unlike Mr. May who does not even deserve to be called Mr. I say this not because I am defending Mr. Ribic’s actions as a Canadian but because I defend a citizen’s right to a fair and impartial trial with full disclosure of evidence.
Walter Trkla
Kamloops BC
Canada - Wednesday January 22, 2003 at 1:50 am
Gogol Charlemagne,What could we do, blood feuds ended as soon as an organized state appeared, institutionnalized criminal tribunals were established. Like I said, contrary to popular myth, blood feuds have little to do with pride and a lot more with fear. You see, the Albanians never had a state in their entire history (they point to fiefdoms during the time of Skenderbeg which could barely be called states) up until 1912.
Igor Jaramaz
Montreal
Canada - Wednesday January 22, 2003 at 3:20 am
I think great news is coming from Canada: the judge had the guts to declare a mistrial! That seems almost unbelievable.Ann-Marie, maybe the MI6 agents are also human. If they don't want to brag about their achievements, at least they want to enjoy the feeling of doublecrossing the public in front of their noses, like putting questions about the involvement about MI6 in front of the TV cameras. Such "openness" might only enhance their cover. And we know that the tribunal is "open": the IWPR says so.
On the other hand, isn't it obvious that Kay really knows how MI6 works and who is on MI6 payroll? And the MI6 connection is pretty much old hat anyway, so why keep it secret? Some British journalist even wrote a book about the British involvement in the toppling of Milosevic is out. Could you resist bragging about an achievement like that, just a little? But I guess the point is: if Kay is capable of that sort of accuracy, where do you think Milosevic's newly-found accuracy might come from?
The tribunal is about myths. In the IWPR article that upset so many people ( http://www.iwpr.net/index.pl?archive/tri/tri_295_2_eng.txt ), it was said that one of the great things about the tribunal is "the fact that every move it makes can be traced back through evidence". Oh, is that now how the tribunal is profiling itself? I remember that Andre came up with some articles last summer where the eggheads said that the tribunal is poppycock and designedly so, because its task is to define the history of the Balkans. No. Now I remember. It said that the tribunal is like theatre. It has a plot. And blah-blah-blah. No doubt IWPR stories about the relevance of any "evidence" is part of that myth itself.
No-one really denies that the principal task of the tribunal is myth-building. And the myths it propagates are ultimately connected with the American superiority. Michael Taylor toyed with the idea that Milutinovic could seek political asylum in America. There is one American myth, though, and it is evident when you enter the US. You have to fill out the form where you declare that you haven't been involved in war crimes or crimes against humanity. What would happen if the Americans admitted they have committed war crimes? They would have to renew the immigration forms, and they would be deprived of another American myth!
This explains also why the Americans wanted to have nothing to do with Milosevic after he was indicted. Which suggests that the Americans were eager to sent the British to bring the Balkans imbroglio to conclusion.
I think this American myth is also the reason many American supporters of Milosevic are happy only if he can be shown to be without spot or blemish. I doubt if Milosevic is really that sort of person. The more any mistake he might have done is denied, the more one begins to suspect another scam.
And finally, let's take another look at the lull the trial is now in. We are speculating if Milosevic might be dead. When he appears agains in the courtroom, we utter a sigh of relief. But I think the real torture is this same uncertainty. Milosevic is kept constantly on the edge. He can never go to sleep quite certain if he will wake up the following day. I guess this is one method to brainwash him. Don't you think he might not be afraid to die just a little bit? The fact that he does recover every time doesn't mean that he hasn't already been broken, and ultimately he may make more concession than his fans would like. And maybe that is the reason he is still kept in detention.
Jari Nousiainen
Finland - Wednesday January 22, 2003 at 5:01 am
Since the Milosevic Prozess is on hold, our 'window to the world' B92 keeps transmitting other trials: a little bit of General Galic, which I already mentioned (shelling of Sarajevo) and a little bit of Milomir Stakic, former Mayor of Prijedor, accused of just about everything that happened during the civil war in Bosnia on the territory of this municipality (probably again on the basis of some kind of 'command responsibility'). Btw, this Milomir Stakic is the one (the first one, methinks) against whom Biljana Plavsic is currently being forced to agree into testifying. It is most useful to have but a glimpse of a procedure other than that of Milosevic: it helps one to realize how particular the Trial Chamber III headed by May really is. By a simple comparison, it is obvious that the members other than the Presiding Judge in those other cases that I managed to see hardly ever speak up, simply because the respective Presiding Judges try to do their job without that hateful tone of voice and biased, calculated interruptions, all of which is known as the Richard May's trademark. The interventions by Robinson and Kwon are just their attempt to rinse the unpleasant aftertaste of that. Other, more important difference is that these judges actually pay attention to the goings on instead of dozing off and peremptorily demanding explanations when suddenly awaked, as May does.On the contrary, the Presiding Judge in the case of Stakic is even overdoing his politeness: would you believe that he actually started the working day, after greeting everybody in the courtroom, by giving a small speech directed to the defendant about how they 'always feel bad when it's a birthday of an accused'. He has found out that today was slava=the family patron saint's-day of Mr Stakic [it was Sveti Jovan=St. John the Baptist, 20 Jan.]. He wanted this particular accused to know that 'we feel bad'. The man clumsily wished 'a happy birthday'(?!) to Stakic and proceeded to say: "It may sound cynical to you, but we wish you all the best and may justice be dispensed to you by this Trial Chamber." This reminded me of a nice hotel on Cyprus where I used to be a regular (in the times of sanction-busting off-shore banking that I facilitated): they invariably left me a birthday card, a basket of fruit and a bottle of wine in my room when I happen to be there by the end of July. It seems that ICTY has an able PR/hotel hostess, too; I wander whether Stakic also got a basket, or was this public speech just a publicity stunt. Be as it may, it was a sugary change from May's rudeness.
This Stakic trial, as well as that of General Galic, is already in its defence stage and I managed to see only a small part of the testimony of one Jankovic, who is an engineer of electronics and telecommunications, working for the Prijedor Police Communications Dept. Prijedor is now within the Serbian entity of Bosnia & Herzegovina, and was taken over by the Serbs in 1992 without one single bullet fired. This engineer testified extremely to the point and without any frills, as befits his profession. I caught a particularly interesting part of his telling: what lead to that take-over. Again, the Defence used all the documents submitted by the Prosecution and the engineer precisely corrected each and every imprecision and falsity, named all names, organizational units and their connections, as it was when he analysed the organizational structure of the whole police force in B&H, as designed by the Prosecution. His story was the following: On 29 April 1992 he came back to the Prijedor Police Station by car with one of his technicians from a repair job on one of their transmitters. There was an urgent meeting organized in their large hall for all the staff, uniformed and non. Those presiding the meeting were the local police top brass, municipality administration officials and politicians, only 1 or 2 Serbs among 8 Muslims. The agenda was the establishing of Prijedor Police Station as a Public Security Centre, and thus to remove it organizationally from the subordination to the Banja Luka Public Security Centre. For those who wander the importance of this, Banja Luka is predominantly Serb municipality. This necessity of independence of Prijedor from Banja Luka and its direct connection to Sarajevo Police instead was explained by better and more rapid salaries distribution and even the increase in salaries for some, by transforming a simple police station into a Centre. Local Chief of Police (a Muslim) spoke a lot, others helped him with more wool-gathering, but somehow the rank and file wasn't convinced. They were cops, yes, but they lived among people, knew and understood something big and ugly is being prepared. Yet, as always with simple working class, when you make them interested by talking salaries, you're half way there to convince them of anything. Then, the policeman guarding the entrance of the building came to tell our engineer/witness that his technician needs him urgently upstairs (these two men were the only ones on duty and not at this meeting and there was no phone in the hall). The technician at the encrypting machine informed his chief engineer that an urgent telegram has arrived, sent by the Minister of the Interior Affairs of B&H and is to be retransmitted to all other police stations, and the technician was unsure of the correct procedure. The engineer read the telegram and was shocked: it was an order to begin war against the JNA! The Minister quoted a 5-point Resolution of the Presidency of B&H and ordered its implementation. This same Resolution was also sent to the Territorial defence (TO) of B&H, as could be read in the heading of the telegram. The Police is to block the JNA barracks within its territory of authority, to block also all the possible roads of retreat and to launch combat activities, all in co-ordination with the TO. The engineer gave technical instructions to his assistant how to retransmit the message, and since the heading read VERY URGENT - to be handed over to the Chief of Police, he took the print of the telegram together with the register of messages and took it to the hall. There he gave all that to the nearest one of his technicians, whose duty was to list each item received and hand it over to the recipient against his signature. The man did so, and the Chief signed the receipt and read the telegram for himself, at the very presiding table. Meanwhile, the engineer asked to speak and bluntly said that the salaries are not the issue here, but this telegram ordering war, which just got into Chief's hands. The cops started yelling they want the telegram to be read aloud and finally it was done by one of the assistants. All hell broke loose! Even the municipal official, who was a Muslim, refused to have anything to do with this and left. After voicing their outrage, the policemen also left the building, disobeying all orders. Nothing happened for the next few days, and then all the municipal officials, including Chief of Police, were quietly replaced by the Serbs, without a single bullet fired. The new Chief ordered our engineer to find the telegram; they managed to salvage the encrypted tape, from which a copy could be made, with letters leaning to the right side (the original was also retrieved later on, and submitted among the Prosecution documents - again, the Prosecution even in this case does a poor job in checking its own papers!). Ergo, the Muslim Presidency of B&H ordered war, even some local Muslims were outraged by that, and the local Serbs took over in Prijedor just to prevent war. And Milomir Stakic, a young local doctor with a goatee, very urbane-looking for such a small place, accepted to be a Mayor. Now he's accused for all the happenings during the civil war which ensued when Prijedor was attacked.
The pattern is obvious and I'll state the obvious again: many of you noted here how predominant the number of the Serbs indicted by the ICTY is as compared to almost insignificant number of the Muslims and the Croats, and the non-existent number of the Albanians and the Slovenians (yes, the Slovenians did some pretty nasty things that could be qualified as war crimes during their nasty little 'war'). But, the sheer numbers are not the main point. The point is that no other ex-YU peoples but the Serbs have their top politicians of all levels indicted, from Mayors to Presidents. Together with Milan Milutinovic, former President of Serbia, there are 5 Serb Presidents in The Hague at the moment: Momcilo Krajisnik, former member of the Presidency of B&H and the Speaker of the Parliament of Republika Srpska; Biljana Plavsic, former President of Republika Srpska; Milan Martic, former President of Republika Srpska Krajina and Slobodan Milosevic, former President of Serbia and of Yugoslavia, and one more is indicted but still fugitive, Radovan Karadzic, former President of Republika Srpska. That's why all those other 'trials' are significant, they give the broad picture of the intentions and purpose of the ICTY: to include ipso facto all the Serbs into one big 'joint criminal enterprise', when practically all their Presidents are already included. And what about the proactive Greater-Albania and Independent-Slovenia/Croatia/Bosnia more-than-joint and more-than-criminal enterprises (as opposed to the reactive, often confused and indecisive 'enterprises' of the Serbs)? What about their ex-Presidents (Kucan, Izetbegovic) and ex-Speakers of the Parliaments (Mesic)? Did they not plan, organize and order aggressive war against their own country? And against neighbouring country (CRO against B&H while Mesic was in office)? Are they not guilty by 'command responsibility'? But since this truth contradicts that neatly contrived theory of the Prosecution, so much the worse for the truth. If we simply claim that 'all sides committed war crimes' the picture of events is not nearly painted. What we have now as drawn by the ICTY is a crooked, lopsided caricature where one side planned all the real, alleged and invented war crimes. And don't even get me started on the paramount culprits from abroad, who helped organize all this tragedy.
Milutinovic had an unprecedented treatment by our officials: a special airplane of the Federal Government took him, his doctors and lawyers to Holland and 2 letters were sent - to Carla from Djindjic and to Claude Jorda from Svilanovic, the Federal Minister of Foreign Affairs and the Chairman of the National Council for the Co-Operation with the ICTY: both stating how very co-operative Milutinovic has been after 5 October with the new authorities and that he should be allowed to remain free during his trial. Some jurists argued in our press that the Djindjic letter got it wrong: there's no such provision of remaining free during trial in the ICTY regulations, only the possibility to be released pending the trial, and then one must get into the detention unit. But who knows, maybe Milutinovic will be unprecedented even in this: he co-operated with DOS, you know, by not taking the legal possibility of dismissing the Serbian Parliament. Though, I doubt this will be enough: the real co-operation required is the one with the Prosecution and specifically by testifying against Milosevic. I'm not sure Milutinovic will do it, even under the extreme pressure from Carla: there's nothing to testify (as even Plavsic sincerely admitted) and there's the cross-examination to air any possible inventions.
I'm not sure Milutinovic will be released either. They already tricked him into believing he will promptly appear before the court to enter his plea on Wednesday, but now I read this will happen only Monday next week! It is perhaps forgotten, but other two Serbian officials voluntarily surrendered as well, General Ojdanic and Sainovic, they also had the official written guarantee of our Government for their release pending trial, the Trial Chamber decided to grant that, but then at the intervention from Carla, the Appellation Trial Chamber revoked it and these two are still in jail. I watched that status conference months ago and you know what Carla said: these two never wanted to talk to the Prosecution since they came to The Hague! No co-operation! The American lawyer of General Ojdanic argued that it was agreed they would freely visit the Belgrade Office of the Tribunal when released, but Carla needs to talk to them as incarcerated, pressured jailbirds. A funny detail, a human touch: the Presiding Judge wanted to know whether the defendants have any practical complaints concerning their detention. Sainovic had none. General Ojdanic, a hulk of a man, stood up and said all's acceptable, only that they don't eat the food prepared, which is very blank, tasteless and not what they are used to have, so they have to buy another food for themselves and the one prepared has to be thrown away, which is a pity and a waste, so the judge should better see to it that it's not prepared anymore. Fun aside, this is an awful, kafkian institution into which human flies fly (thanks, Gogol, for the inspired play on words) and get stuck in that stinking glue.
Vera Martinovic
Belgrade
Yugoslavia - Wednesday January 22, 2003 at 9:07 am
VeraYou are absolutely correct in concluding that the Milutinovic will never see the light of day again.
The HumWarriors have consistently disregarded any and all promises, agreements, treaties whenever they think they can get away with it.
Now that they have Milutinovic, the HumWarriors have no incentive to live up to any agreement.
The HumWarriors have been very consistent in barganing in bad faith. Yugoslavs should have learned that by now
AP V
NY
N Y - Wednesday January 22, 2003 at 9:12 am
Veracould you please rewrite the revelation regarding Iztebgovic ordering TO to attack JNA/VJ in the form of a news article ?
It deserves some cybertime. In the right form we can get it ciculated all over.
AP V
NY
NY - Wednesday January 22, 2003 at 11:32 am
Ivan Kokotovic
travellin\'
ditto- Wednesday January 22, 2003 at 11:41 am
Vera: The Presiding Judge in Stakic trial must have had a little “wacky tobaccy” before commencing the “Farce”and........
Some time ago I read the following:
Sonja Licht heads the Fund for an Open Society of Yugoslavia.
Licht said a true accounting of the past in Serbia may be decades in the future. “There was always a light at the end of the tunnel [in Serbia], and now it is slowly growing brighter.”
Vera, have you heard about Sonja Licht? Is she still around? Is she dreaming or smoking?
Last but not least...I mailed a copy of your post to my sibling who is not connected to the internet. I hope you do not mind?
I am sooooooooo proud of you Vera. You should run for the office of the President of Serbia.Thanx and God Bless You.
Kathryn Love
SJC
USA- Wednesday January 22, 2003 at 12:27 pm
According to B92, Great Britain has now threatened Serbia, if it doesn't hand over Mladic. This threat comes in the heals of the American threat to stop the cash flows. Could this threat from Britain in the wake of the American one be an all-time first?What ever this is about, I am sure "it has nothing to do with Islam". Why don't they use that phrase to describe something that really has nothing to do with Islam? Last time I heard this cliche was after the latest police raid in London. According to Guardian, a Downing Street aide explained: "The war on terror is not about Islam." OK, go on parrotting that sentence, but don't do it after you have ransacked a mosque! ( http://www.guardian.co.uk/leaders/story/0,3604,878972,00.html )
If you want to see fishy, then see fishy in this. Britain threatens to boycott Serbia's membership in the OSCE, if it doesn't hand Mladic to ICTY. Isn't this a bit of overkill? There is another threat from Europe already: the OSCE is threatening Serbia with boycott, unless the status of Kosovo has been settled (which is the main obstacle of the new constitution, which may be the official reason - I am getting mixed up).
However, these threats of stopping the money flows and boycotting the OSCE membership are inconsistent. If the Serbs don't hand in Mladic, then the ICTY should indict Djindjic and Kostunica. I think that is how they could indict Milosevic for the (alleged) crimes committed by Arkan and other indictees, who Milosevic couldn't touch while he was in power.
Jari Nousiainen
Finland- Wednesday January 22, 2003 at 12:53 pm
The war against Iraq is not about oil, al-thought it may benefit oil companies.
Said a US administration clown on duty.
Of course punishing Serbia is a sign of desperation and haste, desperation because nothing in Yugoslavia turned out to be the way the wizards planned to be. Haste because Phase II (War in Iraq) is inevitably, unpopular and coming and Kosovo remains unresolved when the pipe lines are to be laid down, the investments to be safe guarded thus the oil companies are asking for results and the puppets are in panic, what shall they do? Pressing for justice while admitting the ICTY has backlashed miserably is a little of a contradiction, is in't? So, they send Prosper the great war crimes issues ambassador to press Djinjic of all idiots, asking for the two last and then he promises the ICTY will delegate all prosecutions to the national courts, just two more or otherwise the ire of NATO-ATLANTIC-FREEMARKET-ORTHODOXY will strike again, sanctions, boycotts, who knows what else, President Slobodan Milosevic was right and warned about this coming.
Gogol Charlemagne
Conn. USA- Wednesday January 22, 2003 at 2:25 pm
Belgrade doctors to visit Milosevic on Friday | 15:35 | Beta
BELGRADE -- Wednesday - Three Belgrade doctors are to visit former Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic at The Hague though they will be forbidden from examining him.
They will visit Milosevic at the Scheveningen detention unit on Friday 24 January, said the Tribunal today.
“They are not going to be giving him a second medical opinion - it will be treated as any other regular visit”, Tribunal spokesman Christian Chartier told a regular weekly press briefing today.
He added that Milosevic had previously asked to be examined by Belgrade doctors, and that the Tribunal had approved this request on January 9.
The visit will last two hours and the doctors will have access to Milosevic’s medical notes, but are forbidden from examining him due to a rule which bans physical contact between visitors and prisoners, Chartier explained.
Pera Bora
Ottawa
Canada- Wednesday January 22, 2003 at 3:34 pm
Pera,Thanks for the info. If one takes the story you posted and adds it to this story one might think that the tribunal has something it wants to hide.
Maybe the Tribunal is doing something to President Milosevic inorder to intentionally make him sick and they are afraid that whatever they are doing will be uncovered if independent doctors get the chance to examine him.
Best Regards.
Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States- Wednesday January 22, 2003 at 5:15 pm
The only thing left for the ICTY is beging beatings on Serbs inmates. Torture is possibly an option.
Well what thinks the ICDSM?
Gogol Charlemagne
Conn. USA- Wednesday January 22, 2003 at 10:27 pm
VeraI have two theories: One is that the court didn't expect Milosevic to defend himsefl so good.( Remember everybody said that 3 days of bombing will bring down Yugoslavia) it took 72 days. The other theory is that the tribunal wanted to prosecute the other sides too,but couldn't do it because of political reasons,and now Milosevic is exposing all the crimes the others comitted .This is a window of oportunity for the tribunal to start indictments of the others besides serbs. I hope that the serb defendants will bring up all the evidence they have even if it does'nt help. This way the tribunal must make a choice ( at least for the history) I am not afraid of Judge May ( remember the dog that barks does't bite) I am more afraid of the Korean Judge Kwan.
Vasile Ianos
NJ- Wednesday January 22, 2003 at 10:57 pm
78, 78 days no more no less.
Gogol Charlemagne
Conn. USA- Wednesday January 22, 2003 at 11:17 pm
The United States is now in a position where the ones who they call the “Europeans“ are running away from the bombing for oil campaign. Tony Blair has a big problem when 13% of his country are for the bombing, that means most of the country is against .I was at a Christmas party and, one of the CEOs showed up with his wife. A young office stooge jumped up when the music started and rushed over to the matronly looking CEO‘s wife and asked for the pleasure of the first dance... he even bowed to her.If he was aware of the snickers around him he did not let on. Some have no shame in how they get what they want.
Rummy has said those who are against the bombing are in “old Europe,“ the U.S.( he says) has plenty others from Nato who can and will go along with the bombing.
The US is putting pressure on Serbia in a PR campaign to prove to the Muslims they are even handed. This is the same PR ploy the Jews used during the Balkan Civil Wars.
Kathryn Love
SJC
USA- Wednesday January 22, 2003 at 11:32 pm
Guess who? ORLD > Article TOP NEWS WORLD BUSINESS STOCKS & SHARES FUNDS PERSONAL FINANCE INTERNET TECHNOLOGY SCIENCE SPORTS ENTERTAINMENT ODDLY ENOUGH 22 Jan 2003 20:58 GMT U.N. police attacked in Kosovo PRISTINA, Yugoslavia (Reuters) - An explosive device has hit a United Nations police building in Kosovo, causing damage but no casualties, a U.N. spokesman says.A Western source said the building in the town of Pec may have been hit by a rocket-propelled grenade but the United Nations Mission in Kosovo (UNMIK) did not say what kind of device was used.
"Tonight, around 7:30 p.m. (6:30 p.m. British time) an explosive device hit UNMIK police headquarters in Pec," U.N. spokesman Andrea Angeli said. It was believed to be the first attack on a U.N. police building in the Yugoslav province, under U.N.-led administration since 1999 when a NATO bombing campaign drove out Serb troops to halt their repression of Kosovo's Albanian majority.
Angeli said the blast damaged two floors of the building which was largely empty at the time. Kosovo's Albanian leaders are striving restore law and order to win international support for their independence bid.
A few weeks ago three Kosovo Albanian men were shot dead in Pec in what appeared to be part of a feud between gangs from the disbanded ethnic Albanian Kosovo Liberation Army.
Kathryn Love
SJC
USA- Thursday January 23, 2003 at 2:02 am
Hi, I've been a regular though silent visitor to this forum for the past six or so months. My personal view is that Milosevic is putting up a superhuman defence of his position against near impossible odds. Generally there ought to be a widespread support of the underdog in the media. However, this time all I can notice is a pernicious and unrelenting effort to keep on kicking a man when he is down. The tactic being used to drown him in an ocean of documents [many of which even the prosecution seem scarcely to have read] and the punishing trial schedule are nothing but an attempt to use foul means to win where fair means are failing. I would like to ask Vera whether she has any details about how many soldiers or policemen were actually prosecuted by the Sebian authorities for cruel acts committed by them against Albanian civilians during the NATO bombing campaign. After all if action was taken against those responsible for the indisputable instances of inhuman acts, it is the best defence against the sweeping allegations of the prosecution that there was a systematic and coldblooded programme of intimidation and eviction of the Albanian civilian population of Kosovo. Its astonishing to see Tony Blair brazenly using the bypassing of the UN security council during the NATO bombing campaign as a worthy precedent that may be invoked to start bombing and occupying Iraq. He knows that the Western media does not have the humility to admit that it got things horribly wrong in Kosovo and so will not dare to challenge him openly. As an Indian , I feel proud that my country took a principled position both during the illegal bombing of Yugoslavia and now when US/Uk are thinking of attacking Iraq irrespective of the Security Council vote. Seshadri, India
Seshadri Raghavan
India- Thursday January 23, 2003 at 3:31 am
The consensus is that there have been 200-400 war crimes convictions in Serbia in the aftermath of the Kosovo campaign. Many of the indictments by the Serbs took place during the bombing. But so far I have not been able to evict any information about those convictions. And what does it matter, after all? Maybe somebody may have a better conscience afterwards, but it won't change anything. If it threatens too much of the prosecution's theories, it is dismissed as Serbian hanky-panky.What I find truly astonishing is this sudden two-pronged threat from the US and Britain. Remember, they have got Milutinovic. Are they really that hard to please? Does this mean that the Kosovo indictment, for which Milutinovic is now transferred, is a non-issue?
Why is Mladic now used as an excuse and for what? Things are really convoluted at this point. Suppose that one of the reasons Milosevic got indicted was the fact that he didn't do something about Mladic, either. That put Milosevic in the "joint criminal enterprise" gang together with Mladic and others. But why doesn't the inability or reluctance to hand Mladic to Carla get Djindjic and Kostunica indicted?
If one wants to find a rational explanation for Carla's veiled threats to Nato and the surprising US-British threat, one has to go back to her request for Yugoslav documents. She asked a few weeks ago the Yugoslav government to hand in some documents and threatened with some consequences if it didn't. I have been told that Carla has no right whatsoever to ask the Yugoslav government to hand in any documents against its will, so insofar as the recent developments are a consequence of Carla's threats to Yugoslavia, the present turn is dead wrong. The question is, what does it matter? The real mystery, though, is how on earth Carla managed to tell the world that she wants the Yugoslav documents so she can investigate Nato crimes. (Or actually that was not what she said: she said if the Yugoslavs don't hand the documents, she won't open an investigation. So the documents may have been a so-called "necessary" but not a so-called "sufficient" condition.)
Prosper makes mistakes too. Some time ago, he pressured Croatia to hand in some of its indictees. No luck. So he turns to Serbia. And suddenly he has all the political arsenal to back his demands: economic embargo, boycott of the international organizations, you name it. What is interesting, from the theoretical point, is the fact that some states have no qualms about using the international organizations to their own political advantage.
As to the soon-to-start Milutinovic trial, the tribunal professionals said that the accused cannot be released during the trial. But somehow this contradicts what happened with Plavsic. In what respect was her case different? At this point everything contradicts everything else.
Or maybe the tribunal said this to give us the impression that the only time to make deals is before the trial starts. That would take some heat off the other detainees, who might have been doing deals during their detention.
But what the hell? The tribunal is professional, as May constantly keeps remindíng us, so I think we should leave the whole business to them. What choice do we have? For some reason, May utters these reminders just at those times I have reason to speculate he has been in contact with his possible masters at MI6. Like the Wladimiroff resignation. Like the checking of the Milosevic evidence.
By the way, no matter how good the trials seem in other trial chambers, May is still the boss. He is the Chair of the Rules Committee, which means that he signs the amendments to the Rules of Procedure. And they are of course many. That gives him some latitude to nail Milosevic, that's for sure. What I am not sure is whether he is in a similar position to nail Carla. Carla is not tied to his trial chamber, so maybe Carla is the one who really runs the whole show.
The mess is immense. This sort of mess should lead automatically to the declaration of a mistrial, as the judge in Canada had to guts to do. No matter how much Britain and the US now try to put pressure on Serbia and keep the attention away from themselves, the fraud permeates everything, so that Serbia has no duty to respond - maybe Serbia has even the duty not to respond.
Whatever Milosevic's sickness is connected to, at least it serves as a reminder to everybody that we are all immortal. I guess that is the reason the tribunal personnel toe the line. Is May afraid of dying? Maybe he had better be, if deviates from the scenario.
Jari Nousiainen
Finland- Thursday January 23, 2003 at 3:44 am
There may also be a more benign way to explain how Milosevic suddenly knows so much. Maybe the ocean of documents that is intended to drown Milosevic is just a stack of copies of all the documents that the prosecution has on its desk too. That would accord with the tribunal's policy of openness. We know that the prosecution hasn't read all the documents it has. Maybe the difference is that Milosevic now has.
J N
Finland- Thursday January 23, 2003 at 3:58 am
On the other hand, if the motto is "openness is the best cover", the more sensitive material may have been inserted in the stack of documents in the hope that nobody will find it unless he knows where to look for it.
J N
Finland- Thursday January 23, 2003 at 6:50 am
From the ICTY:
Asked for details of the visit by Yugoslav doctors to Mr. Milosevic. Chartier said that the visit would take place on Friday. It was not an expert or a counter expert visit simply a normal visit. This was a follow-up on a wish expressed quite some time ago by the accused to be able to talk to doctors from Belgrade. As it was always the case for visit requests from any detainee, the Registrar had authorised this visit. The visit was authorised by a letter to the accused dated January 8, 2003. The Tribunal suggested the date of Friday 24 because it knew that there would be a break in the proceedings. The Tribunal agreed on the names of the doctors and pursuant to Rule 30 of the Rules of Detention they were going to discuss with Mr. Milosevic his health situation, they would be given access to his full medical records but they would not be able to examine him themselves. The visit would take place at all times in the presence of the Tribunal?s medical officer, who would perform on the accused any examination that might be required. The visit would take place on Friday morning and would last two hours. The doctors from Belgrade would not meet with any other detainees, he concluded.
Asked why they would not be allowed to physically examine him themselves, Chartier replied that according to Rule 30 of the Rules of Detention, ?any treatment or medication would be performed by the medical officer of the Tribunal?. The Tribunal was responsible for the medical care at the Detention Unit, so the Tribunal would carry out anything requested. The doctors from Belgrade may recommend treatment or medication. Should the medical officer agree with them then he was the one who would administer this treatment or medication, but it was also at his sole discretion to ?refuse to administer the treatment? The bottom line was that the Tribunal was responsible for the medical care of the accused. This visit was a normal visit that just happened to be by doctors.
Asked to clarify that they would only be able to discuss his health and read the medical records and that it would not involve them having hands on contact with the accused, Chartier replied that they would not handle the accused. The medical officer would do that. This was normal procedure.
Click HERE and look for ICTY Weekly Press Briefing, some other juice stuff (for those who wonder who calls the shots at the tribunal) is there about the relationship between Carla and Prosper.
Gogol Charlemagne
Conn. USA- Thursday January 23, 2003 at 11:57 am
The Yugo Embassy handed over to the Hague guarantees from the Gov. and Djindjic, for the release on bail of Milutinovic. The letter was addressed to del Ponte and the trial chamber.Comment: Why are these fools turning themselves into the Hague? They were in a civil war and did nothing wrong. Why should they be judged by those who you can see should not judge anyone. What a world....when those who hold the purse strings become the rulers of the planet.?
Kathryn Love
SJC
USA- Thursday January 23, 2003 at 12:38 pm
Sanctions an option against Bosnia over war crimes fugitive Karadzic
Paddy all excited.
Gogol Charlemagne
Conn. USA- Thursday January 23, 2003 at 12:42 pm
This is a new way of govenment, to impose sanction on oneself. The High Representative, the Gauleiter of BiH wants sanctions on his subjects.
His popularity will reach new levels!
Gogol Charlemagne
Conn. USA- Thursday January 23, 2003 at 5:12 pm
And more collective punishment:
US, Europe to step up pressure on war crimes fugitive Karadzic's friends
Where are the voices defending human rights ?
Gogol Charlemagne
Conn. USA- Thursday January 23, 2003 at 5:50 pm
US war crimes envoy Pierre Richard Prosper skips Croatia during tour of region | 14:09 | AFP
This is the American justice at its best.
ZAGREB -- Thursday - US war crimes envoy Pierre Richard Prosper does not have time to visit Croatia during his current tour of the region, announced the US embassy in Yugoslavia today.
Prosper will not be visiting Croatia since “demands on his schedule plus logistical complications render a visit to Zagreb impossible”, said the embassy statement.
Furthermore, no date has been scheduled for a future visit to Croatia.
Prosper, the US ambassador-at-large for war crimes, is expected in Bosnia today for a two-day visit of the country, where he is to renew pressure on authorities to arrest war crimes suspects believed to be hiding in the country.
Prior to Bosnia, Prosper was in Yugoslavia where he issued warnings that US aid to Belgrade depends on Yugoslav cooperation in handing over key war crimes suspects.
He had been due to wrap up his regional tour in Zagreb where he was to put pressure on the authorities to hand over General Janko Bobetko to the UN war crimes tribunal.
Bobetko, who is in hospital in Zagreb, was examined a week ago by UN medical doctors.
They are due to submit a medical report to the Tribunal stating whether his medical condition indeed precludes him from being transferred to the Hague for trial.
Pera Bora
Ottawa
Canada- Thursday January 23, 2003 at 6:51 pm
Vasile, I agree with you that they never expected Mr. Milosevic to fight back. They expected that he would be just sitting there and listening to his accusers, and occasionally try to say something. In which case judge May would cut of his microphone.
They will never accuse any other leader of any other nation involved in the Yugoslav wars. They will continue to ignore the obvious, no matter what. The case of Mr. Milosevic is going so wrong that they can not afford to accuse any one else on the other side since their cases would be devastating for the accused and easy to prove.
For example they are accusing Mr. Milosevic that he has made statements that have induced hatred. They have not come up with a single one as a proof. On the other side they have tons of high quality hatred promoting statements made by Mr.-s Clinton, Blare, Tudjman, Mesic, Izetbgovic, Taci ... The only way that they would accuse anyone else would be if they can prove that the Serbs are guilty as hell and we know that they are not. Mr. Prosper is skipping Zagreb, isn't he?
As I have already said it is Mr. Milosevic or Mr. Clinton. Because the command responsibility pyramid goes like the following:
Croatia: everybody <- Mr. Tudjman <- Mr. Clinton. War started courtesy of Mr. Tudjman
Bosnia : everybody <- Mr. Izetbegovic <- Mr. Clinton. War started courtesy of Mr. Izetbegovic
Kosovo: everybody <- Mr. Taci <- Mr. Clinton. War started courtesy of Mr. Taci
Americans are in a hurry to close this whole ICTY scandalous operation and to get all the Serbs arrested before Mr. Milosevic starts his defense or dies or war against Iraq start being sour.
They need thousands of pages to prove that Mr. Milosevic has started the war. Each of above listed persons has issued one page order to start his own war. To prove their guilt only three pages i.e. three orders need to be read by the prosecution and judges and three televised statements to be seen and the case is closed and culprits are found. It is painful how truth is simple and strait forward and the justice is slow and confusing.
The only way to keep Mr. Milosevic for life in a prison is for the ICTY judges to admit that they can reed and understand only ten pages of prosecution case a day and decide to keep the ICTY in a session as long as they need to reed all the prosecution documents. Prosecution should accept this under condition that they can continue piling new documents as long as it need be and that all the cases against other Serbs are postponed till the end of Mr. Milosevic's trial i.e. until all the detainees die.
Pera Bora
Ottawa
Canada- Thursday January 23, 2003 at 10:24 pm
I am apologizing to you for re-positing my previous post. Moderator please remove the first one if you can.
Vasile, I agree with you that they never expected Mr. Milosevic to fight back. They expected that he would be just sitting there and listening to his accusers, and occasionally gasp to say something, in which case judge May would triumphally cut of his microphone. No way Mr. May you will have many bad day!!!
They will never accuse any other leader of any other nation involved in the Yugoslav wars. They will continue to ignore the obvious, no matter what. The case of Mr. Milosevic is going so badly that they can not afford to accuse any one else on the opposing side, since these cases would be devastating for the accused and painfully easy to prove.
For example they are accusing Mr. Milosevic that he has made statements that have instigated hatred amongst nations of the Former Yugoslavia. They have not come up with a single one as a proof yet. On the other hand, they have tons of high quality hatred promoting statements made by Misters (Mistresses) Clinton, Blare, Tudjman, Mesic, Izetbgovic, Taci and ... The only way that they would accuse anyone else would be if they can prove that the Serbs are guilty as hell and we know that they are not. Mr. Prosper is skipping Zagreb, isn't he?
As I have already said it is Mr. Milosevic or Mr. Clinton. Because the command responsibility pyramid goes like the following:
Croatia: everybody <- Mr. Tudjman <- Mr. Clinton. War started courtesy of Mr. Tudjman with Mr. Helmut Khol on top.
Bosnia : everybody <- Mr. Izetbegovic <- Mr. Clinton. War started courtesy of Mr. Izetbegovic with Mr. Warren Zimmerman on top.
Kosovo: everybody <- Mr. Taci <- Mr. Clinton. War started courtesy of Mr. Taci with Mrs. Madeline Albright on top and Mr. peeping Tom Bill Clinton providing the final blow.
The Americans are in a hurry to close this whole ICTY scandalous operation, and to get all the Serbs arrested before Mr. Milosevic starts his defense, or dies, or war against Iraq starts being sour. The time is running out!!!
They need thousands of pages to prove that Mr. Milosevic has started the wars of the Former Yugoslavia. Each of the following listed males i.e. Mistresses Tudjman. Izetbegovic and Clinton has issued one page order to start his own mini war against the Serbs. To establish their guilt only three pages i.e. three orders need to be read by the prosecution and judges and three televised statements to be seen, and the case is closed for the culprits are found and no defense is possible. It is painful how truth is simple, and strait forward, and the justice is slow, and confusing.
The only way to keep Mr. Milosevic for life in a prison is for the ICTY judges to admit that they can reed and understand only ten pages of prosecution case a day and decide to keep the ICTY in a session as long as they need to reed all the prosecution documents. The prosecution should willingly accept this under condition that they can continue piling new documents as long as it need be and that all the cases against other Serbs are postponed till the end of Mr. Milosevic's trial i.e. until all the detainees die.
Pera Bora
Ottawa
Canada- Friday January 24, 2003 at 1:27 am
This seeing-but-not-touching medical exam allowed to Milosevic's doctors is even more ridiculous than the ancient practice from the times of Indian Maharajahs: our poster from India Seshadri can correct me if I'm wrong, but as I remember from some British classic novels depicting old India, when a Maharanee (wife of a Maharajah) falls ill, a doctor can only examine her through a palm-sized hole in a huge cloth, held over her bed by its corners in a stretched position by four men and moved in a way the hole comes above the respective body part that has to be examined. This old-time doctor was only prevented to see the whole body of the woman (out of prudery), but he could at least touch his patient through the hole, which is forbidden to Milosevic's doctors! So, the ICTY rules are more backward than those of ancient India indigenous states.Regarding soldiers and policemen prosecuted by our authorities for war crimes while Milosevic was in office, Jari is right: various sources mentioned couple of hundreds of cases, prosecuted even during the bombing, all individual or small-group acts, ranging from stealing to mistreating and murder. I personally remember reading some three-liners in our papers, which are notoriously never very detailed on any court case: even the top-profiled trials only get few paragraphs. Unfortunately, I never kept any of those papers and they're also not to be found on the Web. But the court documents are certainly available.
To AP Vucelic: I've checked the transcripts from the Stakic trial (www.un.org/icty/ind-e): the last date covered is 1 Oct. 2002! So, judging by the efficiency demonstrated so far, it will be more than 3.5 months until the transcripts of 20 Jan. 2003 arrive. I'll keep an eye on it, find the pages with the engineer Jankovic's testimony and his reading word for word of the infamous telegram by which the Presidency of B&H ordered war, as asked by the Presiding Judge to be included that way in the transcript, and I'll quote and comment upon that.
This sugary judge in the Stakic case (the one who wished him a happy birthday for his slava), a German called Schomburg, granted Biljana Plavsic some more time to decide whether she'll obey his order to come and testify against Stakic: she had a deadline which expired yesterday, now the new one is 11 February. The regulations of the ICTY are like custom kitchens: adjustable for specific clients. Her defence team has been warned her decision will affect her pending sentence. Is blackmail also stipulated?
Gogol, torture already was an option for the ICTY, as well as murder. But, we're just legal amateurs here, let a real legal ace speak of both: This is a 10-page article written by Anthony D'Amato, titled 'Defending a Person Charged with Genocide', published in the Chicago Journal of International Law in 2000. The article is a true fountain of nowhere-else-to-be-found info. D'Amato was engaged to represent Dr Milan Kovacevic, one of the Prijedor troika (there were also Simo Drljaca, Chief of Police, shot to death in the back while being arrested, and Milomir Stakic, former Mayor, now on trial). Kovacevic was the former Deputy Mayor of Prijedor, tortured while being arrested, who suffered his first heart attack after arriving to The Hague and 11 months later died in his cell. In addition to the story of his aborted defence, D'Amato also gave a vivid picture of the ICTY inside mechanisms: its almighty Registrar (over 300 employees!), the holiness of 'the rules' and 'security', the practice of changing the rules in closed sessions, the utter inequality in the treatment of the defence as compared to the prosecution, starting with the office space, the whole organization being not neutral, but supportive to the prosecution. D'Amato notes all that and still fails to draw the only logical conclusion: ICTY should cease to exist promptly, there's no way of 'improving the fairness and efficacy' of something so totally flawed.
And in case some of you haven't yet read the 4-part analysis of the Dokmanovic 'suicide' by Prof Francisco Gil-White (Murder at The Hague), here's the link: http://emperors-clothes.com/gilwhite/d1.htm.
To Kathryn: Sonja Licht seems to be keeping a low profile lately; her other, more vociferous humanitarian sisters are more often on TV and in newspapers than her. I hope the reason is a more direct connection to Soros-now-in-legal-mess of her particular outfit (we have a derogative word for such cushy-job establishment: jasle=manger). As for your suggestion I should run for office, I know I would be a poor material for a politician: I don't stomach compromise that well.
Vera Martinovic
Belgrade
Yugoslavia- Friday January 24, 2003 at 2:04 am
The arrest of Mladic and Karadzic. March 31 is the deadline for the Serbs.I still think this is to pacify the muslims. Do a good job playing up to the muslims in Kosovo and Bosnia and maybe the rest of them will forgive the bombing of Iraq when it starts. If this is the case, they are dreaming. Besides we need the money ourselves for more bombs to blow up Iraq. We have enough now to blow up the planet five times over but who is counting?
Richard Holbrooke (sp) was on “Hardball” tonight. He thinks Hussein is even worse than Milosevic! Imagine, Milosevic was Hitler and now Hussein is worse.After Hussein who will it be? Soon we will have to exonerate Hitler because all these bad guys are so much worse than he was.
RH said that it is not necessary for the USA to go to the Security Council to bomb Iraq.The way he says “Kosovo” and “Bosnia” is an indication that he thinks he is a combination of Napoleon and Patton. The man sounds programmed, cold and inhuman. If a snake could talk I am sure it would sound just like Holbrooke.
Serbia try to survive without giving up your people, your self respect, your dignity, your soul. Mladic and Karadzic and then who? It will never stop.
Kathryn Love
SJC
USA- Friday January 24, 2003 at 3:14 am
This is one thing I think is hard to accept: members of the past administration making public statements concerning coming policy. However, if that were not so, would Carter have won his Nobel Peace Prize? "Who is worse than Saddam?" Holbrooke of course!This medical check-up by Yugoslav doctors through the glass (I almost said: through the looking-glass) is telling. Chartier must be the uncrowned king of the newspeak. He is the one who said that the medication prescribed to Milosevic for his hypertension was exactly the right one, because his blood pressure shot up. So it is not surprising that he has basically two things to say of the visit by the Yugoslav doctors: 1) This visit is a normal visit that just happened to be by doctors, and 2) they would not handle the accused - the medical officer would do that - This is normal procedure.
"Normal visit". "Normal procedure". Chartier has made an artform of missing the point, although the other ICTY people are good too. The point is that there are irregularities in Milosevic's medical care. This is not a normal visit. The purpose is to verify if the allegations of the irregularities are true. But the ICTY rules have no provisions for cases where something goes wrong. That means that things can't go wrong, and any procedure to control any irregularities has to be written off as something else, like a "normal visit" by doctors.
What is not normal is the examination through the glass window. Vera said that the ICTY rules can be flexible as the Plavsic mess shows. But the rules are again flexible only if it suits the prosecution.
Chartier keeps missing the point spectacularly (to borrow that memorable phrase by Lord Robertson). He keeps telling us that the medical doctors of the tribunal would take care of the handling of the patient. The fact is that the "handling" is the very reason for the suspicions of the irregularities. Either Milosevic has not been "handled" or he has been "mishandled".
By the way, it is not true that the medical officer would be the only one to touch Milosevic. I remember seeing one of the Dutch guards pushing Milosevic when he was brought to the detention centre. I guess that kind of flexibility suits the prosecution.
For the prosecution, the rules can be bent. The defence has to settle for the rules, as they are. This view is even shared by the ECHR, which ruled that if the ICTY Statute says that the trial would be impartial, it is. But sometimes a funny thing happens. Even the "professionals" get mixed up in their own rules, as happened when President Jorda insisted that he has no power over the detainees' health and quoted the Rules of Procedure. If he had quoted the Rules of Detention, which are now made ample use of, he might have noticed that it was he himself who had given the permission to continue Milosevic's round-the-clock surveillance.
This tribunal has been a success in one thing: in getting rid of the Serb leadership, as Vera showed convincingly. So the Americans may congratulate themselves. The problem from the legal point of view might be that such ulterior motives would be enough in themselves to render the trial null and void, because the bad faith is openly admitted. You can't eat your cake and have it too, as I think the saying goes. But the practical consequences of this legal fiasco will only be applied to the Americans and its allies, when the time comes. They will remind us what a failure the Milosevic trial was.
It was also interesting that the WSJ article said that Milosevic's defense would be that there was a civil war. Oh how happy the Americans would be if that were so. Maybe the presiding judge will have now the excuse to rule Milosevic's real defense "irrelevant", because it has nothing to do with the civil war. The real defense would more likely be the foreign interference in Yugoslavia's domestic affairs, which is prohibited on the basis of the UN Charter (if anybody remembers any more).
So this jury's (=our) verdict is clear: the tribunal sucks. Now that it seems to be time to write obituaries not only for Milosevic but for the tribunal as well, I would like to say that this tribunal is the most idiotic thing I have seen in my life. Any objections?
But of course, the jury is not heard. I think that is what May means his "professionalism". Legal amateurs, as Vera puts it (I really hate that word), should shut up. May could just as well say: "This is a professional court, so legal amateurs and anyone whom the case may concern, should just shut up. And now excuse me, I will have to make a phone call to MI6 headquarters in London."
Of course, that scenario would never take place, because the ICTY Statute says that the judges are impartial and of high moral integrity and the other usual poppycock.
But the prosecutor may take some liberties. She or he can do anything that is not prohibited in the basic documents.
And I think I now have the key to the mystery of what is happening with Carla these days. She can't get the documents she wants from Belgrade. Remember, Carla has the right to request only indictees (and witnesses) but not documents. Belgrade doesn't give them. And then the Arkan exposé is played out in the courtroom. Carla suddenly gets evenhanded: hand in the documents, she thunders, otherwise the Nato crimes will never be looked into (I said she was good in the newspeak). No success. So suddenly Britain and US get all bogged down in the old Mladic pain in the ass. What they forgot in the heat of the rhetoric was that they got Milutinovic, so their actions seemed quite unrelated to anything that was going on on the ground. Except the need to divert the attention away from the speculation on foreign intelligence that the Arkan exposé might have given rise to.
And the prosecution goes to great lengths to divert the attention from the real culprits. Remember that Martic was indicted for using cluster bombs. That is a bad charge, because Nato used them too. So it should have been no surprise to read yesterday that the prosecution has decided to "expand" the Martic indictment.
Why don't they cut to the chase? The rest of the prosecution's case in the Milosevic trial is going to be the same old rehashed bull. What I am eager to see is the defense stage. Besides, cutting the prosecution's case short at this point might be beneficial to Milosevic's health, which would be a normal procedure in such an unnormal situation.
The head of the RTS studio who is accused of letting the employees stay in the building even if he had foreknowledge of the coming Nato attack didn't show up in his hearings. The case is so laughable, who can blame him? But really mysterious things are happening. Isn't the 9/11 attack in New York a little like the RTS bombing? A building is destroyed, and the authorities are afterwards accused of not doing anything, even if they knew of the attack beforehand?
Jari Nousiainen
Finland- Friday January 24, 2003 at 5:19 am
Holbrooke must be fishing for a position in a coming administration by being so nice about the present one. The question does arise, however: if Saddam is so much worse than Milosevic, why didn't Holbrooke start messing up in Iraq?And this brings me to a mystery: what is a legal professional? One "definition" of the legal profession was given by someone who should know, or at least thinks he knows(Martti Koskenniemi). He said that the task of the legal profession is "to defend our proper idiom". Orwell could not have put it any better. Congratulations!
However, if I may, there is one flaw in this "definition" (or is it a misson statement?). What about those who get as good at talking bullshit as the legal profession, even if they have no legal education? Are they legal professionals too?
One instance of such a natural talent may have been the Downing Street aide, who I quoted as saying that "war on terror is not about Islam". This statement was made after the raid in the mosque. However, the aide went on saying that most Muslims are quite peaceful. Now that is a talent! The aide goes on talking about those who have not committed crimes as somehow relevant to those who have. And then those who have committed crimes are dismissed as irrelevant to those who haven't.
"The war on terror is not about Islam". Maybe the war on terrorism is, because I think the Islamic terrorism is exactly what the war on "terror" is about. You might call it a definition (or a mission statement). The fact that those Muslims who have not committed crimes are Muslims nonetheless does not change the fact that those who have are as well.
India and Russia have been very consistent in voting against almost every resolution that the UN has passed in regard to the situation in the former Yugoslavia. Maybe they saw the war on terror coming all along.
Yes, Islam is a religion of peace the same way May is a person of high moral character. As anybody knows (even the experts), the dar al-islam (or "house of peace") will reign only there where Islam has conquered. Until then, the world remains a dar al-harb or "house of war".
And lo, I will show you another mystery. I think this is the fourth seal, or the fourth trumpet, or whatever, from the Book of Revelation. The British system has the motto "the King (or the Queen) can do no wrong". And that is exactly what one could say about the ICTY: the ICTY can do no wrong. You see, whenever the ICTY breaks the Statute, or the Rules of Procedure etc., they can say (and the ECHR with them) that they have broken nothing because the Statute, or the Rules of Procedure etc. say that the trial is impartial, or the judges are independent, or whatever. In other words, the actual state of affairs should be confirmed by looking at the basic documents. Somehow this reminds of the Mediaeval disputes about the number of teeth in the horse's mouth. You had to consult the learned writings instead of looking in the horse's mouth.
Well, can the ICTY staff break the Statute when there is no provision or rule in the basic legal documents? Of course not. What rule could they break, if the ICTY Statute, or the Rules of Procedure etc. say nothing of the matter?
And that explains the ICTY's boundless faith in the documents. As one of the witnesses said, I am here just to bring the report. Once the report is discussed, it is confirmed. Just like the investigations of the mass graves "confirm" the reports, even if the outcome of the investigations has nothing in common with the claims in the report.
In that respect it is doubtful how effective Milosevic's cross-examination is. Even if he manages to explode one report after another, what he is actually doing, is confirming them (in the ICTY newspeak). He might just as well have saved himself the trouble and let the prosecution present the honourable judges with the documents as written depositions pursuant to Rule so-and-so of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence, as the prosecution's plan was.
J N
Finland- Friday January 24, 2003 at 5:57 am
To Vera, and apropós Human rights organisations and your analysis of those in the december posting, ++: I`ve just read transcripts from Milosevic - Poljanic duel; there Milosevic "heavily" refers to an Amnesty International repport, using it as evidence in his questioning of Poljanic. AI is an organisation that is very similar to HRW, and of course collaborates with the latter. How would you call this in relation to his rebuttal of HWR: hypocrisy, maybe? And how comes nobody here took notice of this when debating HR-org?
Nebojsa Matic
Oslo- Friday January 24, 2003 at 6:18 am
Pera: Do not forget the EnablerAs I have already said it is Mr. Milosevic or Mr. Clinton. Because the command responsibility pyramid goes like the following: …
Kosovo: everybody <- Mr. Taci <- Mr. Clinton. War started courtesy of Mr. Taci with Mrs. Madeline Albright on top and Mr. peeping Tom Bill Clinton providing the final blow.
Without Blair’s New Labour spin machine with its massive lies of rape camps, death camps and slaughter of the Kosovars Nato would never have gone ahead with the criminal attack upon Serbia. Read the media reports of the time.
Without Koran loving Blair’s arm-twisting of the other reluctant Nato leaders this criminal folly would have stopped after the atrocity at Nis.
When the other leaders, including a reluctant Clinton, were ready to pack it in after the atrocity at Nis Blair pleaded for Nato’s credibility over principle. Blair also continued to deploy cluster bombs even though the USA ceased to use them. Read media reports of the time.
If Blair had taken a principled stand against the attack upon Serbia the destruction of this state would not have occurred.
Do not let any of these monsters escape their responsibility. Surely it was Albright’s war, Clinton’s power and Blair the Enabler.
Peter Taylor
Herts/UK- Friday January 24, 2003 at 7:22 am
Looking at ICTY site I noticed that the transcriptions of the testemony given by Milan Babic, former leader of Krajina Serbs, who was initially giving statement as protected witness and later disclosed his identity after which the ICTY was in obligation to disclose and publish them, transcriptions of this testemony were not made public, meaning that ICTY did fulfil its own obligation. Naive people would have been surprised by this but not people who regularly watch and follow this "trial".
LANA PETROVIC
Yugoslavia- Friday January 24, 2003 at 11:14 am
re: US and British threats to Yugo. Yugo could rescind overflight right to the US forces:Air Forces Monthly Feb 2003 edition P.6
USA Requests Balkan Assistance The USA has officially asked to use Macedonian airspace in the even of military action against Iraq. Similar requests have also been sent to Croatia, Bosnia & Herzegovina and Albania. The Yugoslavian Government has already approved the US request.According to Macedonian Army sources, the deal is similar to the agreement between NATO and Macedonia during the Air Campaign against Yugoslavia in 1999. Then, apart from the use of Macedonian airspace, NATO forces also used Petrovac air base, near Skopje, for emergency landings and refuelling.
Igor Bozinovski
--------------------Maybe the 'War Crimes at Large' Ambassador threat is just a PR stunt? Why no word from the Secretary of State, Mr. Powell or some equal heavyweight. I think the threat was more designed to quieten down the Witch of the Hague.
Yugoslavia provides intelligence on KLA mujihideen links, drug and human traffiking to the West as well as taking part in NATO training exercises (info gleaned from another yugo forum). The US has already forgive 2/3(?) of its foreign debt to the US. As for not being admitted as a member of the OSCE, this is hardly important (after all, we have already seen its partisan nature in its own reports). As for other sanctions, there is only so much that can be done before it further destabilised Yugo and its neighbours...
Alexei Gorbulski
Brussels
Soviet Socialist Republic of Belgium ;)- Friday January 24, 2003 at 5:46 pm
Peter, I agree with you. I made my post intentionally simple. I wanted to point out that the things are much simpler and clearer than they appear to be.
Pera Bora
Ottawa
Canada- Friday January 24, 2003 at 6:36 pm
Nebojsa, the HRW has got a bad wrap for very good reason, the main one being that they have not been neutral. Especially members of their local branch in Serbia that in their statements follow the anti Serbian policies of the USA government form A to Z. The recent appearance of their representative in the ICTY was certainly not neutral at all. Even if we assume that all the reports written by the HRW and Amnesty International are absolutely balanced they should be aware by now that the USA government and other Western governments are abusing their neutrality by taking from their reports only what suites their policies. Until now I haven't seen a single protest from these organizations against abuses of the information that they are providing. I have a lot of concerns with the conclusions that they are deriving from their reports and amount of understanding for the wrongdoings of the anti Serbian military forces. For example the HRW is blaming the Serbian government for the position of ethnically cleansed Serbs from Croatia, Bosnia and Kosovo that are living in Serbia, not governments that have cleansed them. The public statements of the representatives of these organizations very often contradict neutrality of their reports. This is happening so often that I do not buy that this is not done intentionally i.e.: "We will tell publicly what our government wants us to say, but for the history and the future verification we have a neutral reports filed". How is this possible? Majority of people does not read the reports they get their information from media and government representatives. So there is no surprise that Mr. Milosevic is citing the reports but not citing the conclusions. This is big risk for him because judges can turn around and cite the conclusions to him. His only defense would be to ask them: "After reading everything does these conclusions make any sense"?
Pera Bora
Ottawa
Canada- Friday January 24, 2003 at 7:03 pm
I wonder how the touchless medical examination of Mr. Milosevic went today.
Only one (REUTERS) wire report says the trial may resume on monday.
Gogol Charlemagen
Conn. USA- Friday January 24, 2003 at 9:22 pm
Normal procedure: A sick detainee has a right to ask for medical assistance. If the prison can't handle the situation and a more specialized treatment is required the prison must bring the detainee ( under guard ) to the nearest hospital that can handle the case: as soon as the detainee enter the hospital the doctors are in full control of his treatment. The doctor doesn't have to be affiliated with the prison and a doctor can't refuse to treat the person even if he is a criminal,illegal immigrant ,black , white or anything else. During his stay in a hospital the doctor is in full control of the patient. No guard,judge or prosecutor can tell the doctor what to do. So the ICTY if full of crap when it says that nobody can get in physical contact with the prisoner ( unless they are affraid that the prisoner will be poisoned ) About the serb detainees at Hague. The prosecutor wants to see all of them together so it can squeze something out of any of them in order to have inside evidence against Milosevic.
Vasile Ianos
NJ - Wednesday January 22, 2003 at 11:41 am