 MILOSEVIC TRIAL DISCUSSION ARCHIVE |
| JURIST >> LEGAL NEWS - WORLD LAW >> Discussion >> Milosevic Trial Discussion Archive |
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Former Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic is on trial for war crimes in the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia at The Hague. This marks the first time a head of state has been personally prosecuted before an international criminal court.
Is Slobodan Milosevic getting a fair trial?
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- discussion archive
- Friday January 23, 2004 at 2:57 am
Vendetta violence plagues Albania Tirana, (Reuter) -- The prime minister was slain by a Albanian gay retard, and his deputy gets e-mailed rape threats. The foreign minister just learned he was on a "hit" list, and the defense minister has tightened his ass. More than three years after the Albaninan velvet gay reform, Albania remains shrouded in a menacing atmosphere of sexual intimidation. It's the abnorm gay politics of fear."we have to look after our own asses and dont interfer in rhe gay and drug traffic" Albanian "defence "minister told Reuter.
Arben Qosja
Chicago
USA - Friday January 23, 2004 at 3:00 am
Thats more like it Arben! Welcome back!
AGR- Albanian
Gay
Retards - Friday January 23, 2004 at 6:53 am
The Inquisition Jan. 21stIn the name of Islam
Walter Trklaa
Kamloops BC
Canada - Friday January 23, 2004 at 7:03 am
Andy Wilcoxson is utterly mistaken in assuming that I am not me (January 22, 2004 at 4:21 pm)!I have to say, that Wilcoxson's assumption that my posting "is just one more example of the recent campaign of provocation" is - well: Crap!
I, "the real Mr. Louis-Jensen", maintain that "there is altogether too much crap brought into this otherwise important "Milosevic Trial Discussion", - and that "we do not have time for trivial nonsense," (as stated in my posting of January 22, 2004 at 9:46 am).
The sad fact that my critical evaluation of what Gogol "found" (January 21, 2004 at 12:09 pm) is 'interpreted' by Wilcoxson (and M.Donne?) as indifference to the actions of Danish Kfor troops in Kosovo seems to me to underscore the need for concentration, care and precision in our postings (on my part as well, of course).
I would agree with Andy Wilcoxson in that when the prosecution case ends people will come here to find something useful, - we should not let them (or mr. Milosevic!) down!
PS: "Why does your media not investigate and your ministers not comment upon these alleged brutalities," - even Peter Taylor runs off the track to the detriment of this otherwise useful "Milosevic Trial Discussion" (January 22, 2004 at 6:18 pm).
Kindly pull yourselves together...
Godfred Louis-Jensen
Copenhagen
D E N M A R K - Friday January 23, 2004 at 7:24 am
Yes, daddy!
Pork Cutlete
Jutland, DK - Friday January 23, 2004 at 10:08 am
On the question about the transcripts of Jovic's testimony (Robert Hessen, 20. Jan, 8:56pm):I called the media office at The Hague but the person had no idea why the transcripts are not available.
I recommend you do the same, if you have the time. Usually, the staff persons are very friendly, but as I say, don't expect them to be knowledgable about such details.
Here are two phone numbers for the Media Office:
++31-70-512-5343/-5356
M Gockel
Germany - Friday January 23, 2004 at 11:08 am
To all my Serb friends:I am having a party to celebrate our victory over Nato. The date will be March 24, 2004, the five year anniversary of the NATO bombing of our tiny but proud country. Please come to my home for this gala event. their will be plenty of pig meet for everyone. We will all sing our new national anthem, "Who Said Serbia is Small." The party starts at 1:23pm, the time the first bomb fell on, the once beautiful, Beograd. Bring your own Slivovica!
I will be sending out a map of how to get to my house at a later date. Please don't forget to bring your Chetnik hats.
Alexander P. Vucelic
Mansfield
Ohio - Friday January 23, 2004 at 11:17 am
To all my Albanian friends: I am having a party to celebrate our victory over Serbia. The date will be March 24, 2004, the five year anniversary of the Albanian gay retard foundation. Please come to my home for this gala event. their will be plenty of pig meet an d asss-oil for everyone. We will all sing our new national anthem, "Let´s f*ck our retarded brains and bodies up the ass" The party starts at 1:23pm, the time the first Albaninan gay retard was filled with flowing juices, the once beautiful, Albanian arse. Bring your own non-alcoholic Slivovica! I will be sending out a map of how to get to my house at a later date. Please don't forget to bring your silly albaninan hats.
Arben Qosja
Chicago
USA - Friday January 23, 2004 at 11:18 am
Godfred: I believe that my comments here regarding alleged brutalities by KFOR forces in Kosovo and the continuing atrocities of New Variant KLA members are important.The Trial of Milosevic has its origins in allegations of brutalities committed by Milosevic’s forces in Kosovo.
It is ironic that while Milosevic is being tried for such alleged brutalities by his forces and their consequences - by no means convincingly - his Nato adversaries and jailers together with their KLA allies continue to murder, injure, physically abuse, drive out and destroy the property of Kosovo’s minority populations: with impunity.
Your obvious embarrassment over allegations that Danish forces are doing the dirty work of the KLA and the failure of your media and ministers to follow this up does not legitimise your attempts to define the limits of this discussion.
Peter Taylor
Herts/UK - Friday January 23, 2004 at 11:21 am
It must be quit big that Albanian multi-fu*cked arse of yours?
Enver Bigdick Hoxa
ALBMERICA - Friday January 23, 2004 at 11:40 am
Yes, just fill it up, we Albanians know how to enjoy a big one up the ass!
Arben Qosja
Chicago
USA - Friday January 23, 2004 at 11:52 am
Here is one more good argument for Mr. Milosevic that he ran better society in Kosovo than NATO stooges. NATO supports in Kosovo government that is against multietnicity.
Kosovo prime minister “against multiethnicity” | 21:36 | B92
CAGALAVICA -- Thursday - Kosovo ‘s prime minister said today that he does not support the principle of multiethnicity being foisted on Kosovo by the international community.
Instead, said Bajram Rexhepi, he would urge all citizens to live together and respect one another.
“In Kosovo we basically lived next to one another and I don’t support the principle of multiethnicity.
“But I do ask the people of Kosovo, even if we don’t like one another, and we don’t have to, to respect one another, to refrain from attacks, to make it possible for everyone, as human beings, to have their place in Kosovo and for fundamental rights to be respected,” said Rexhepi.
The prime minister was speaking as the first guest in a series of radio interviews with Albanian officials organised by the London-based Institute for War and Peace Reporting.
Pera Bora
Ottawa
Canada - Friday January 23, 2004 at 12:03 pm
I doubt that Alexander P Vucelic is a real person? Are we entering a mode in which one posts for both sides statements and arguments. I would argue that in these cases the moderator should intervene. Especially when statements have nothing to do with the trial of Mr. Milosevic.
Pera Bora
Ottawa
Canada - Friday January 23, 2004 at 12:27 pm
Happy Chinese new year "year of the monkey" we already have some albanian monkeys joyfully celebrating .
Brainexi Rehtardet
Togo - Friday January 23, 2004 at 12:27 pm
Moderator would you PLEASE do something regarding person Arben Qosja. I have followed this discussion for last two years and people were able to maintain civility of this site. We do not need posts like those. Kindly remove his obscene comments from this page. Thank you.
A. Turcotte
Ottawa, Canada - Friday January 23, 2004 at 12:35 pm
The Albaninan gay retard colony are celebrating here too, Happy new year!!
Enver boo-boo rethardxiet
Uagadougou
Upper Volta - Friday January 23, 2004 at 1:05 pm
We got some here to, running up and down the streets,these Albanians are more apes than the monkeys in the jungle.
Charles Blaque Drain
Bimbirimbi
Uganda - Friday January 23, 2004 at 2:51 pm
I suspect that the persons posting obscene and derogatory comments here about Albanians are Kosovo Albanian separatists or those who supported them.This same tactic was employed successfully in Kosovo to gain the West's sympathy. Murder and abduction of serbs and loyal Albanians was explicitly used to provoke counter terrorist operations which were then hyped into atrocities.
Don't fall for this trick again. Ask yourself whose interest is served by the destruction of this discussion: Who does not want the truth to be exposed.
Don't be fooled.
Peter Taylor
Herts/UK - Friday January 23, 2004 at 3:32 pm
Moderator - This discussion is obviously under attack from parties interested in undermining this ad hoc amicus curiae to serve as a possible reference to the Milosevic Trial. I join therefore Pera Bora and others in asking you to delete all postings that contain nothing but slurs / ad hominem remarks.
Godfred - "Kindly pull yourselves together". I agree - thanks for your prompting. I feel that we should explore possible means of dealing with the "provocateurs". For instance, if this board becomes infested with slurs, it will be difficult, if not impossible, to hyperlink it to other documents/forums. This is the main aim, I am afraid, of the provocateurs. Such a side topic is becoming increasingly important as this old, time-tested tactic is being now employed at all levels, even against legal demonstrators in countries that used to respect dissent, such as the US (e.g., in Miami) or Canada.
Gogol - Can you please reference your statement ""English Common Law the base of the ICTY". I found nothing to support it. As far as I know, the English Common Law (ECL) prosecutorial discretion is supposed to be curtailed in ad hoc International Tribunals such as ICTY. This is because the Prosecutor Office, being independent of the Security Council and possessing proprio motu powers to commence prosecutions, proved to be one of the most controversial issues at the Rome Conference of Plenipotentiaries. Those that opposed such an office feared that
- it would unduly intrude into the internal affair of States and thereby infringe upon their sovereignty
- a Prosecutor with such powers would be a “loose cannon” and might initiate politically motivated prosecutions.
To allay the fears of such skeptics the Pre-Trial Chamber was created and was empowered to exercise oversight over the exercise of the Prosecutor’s discretionary powers usually afforded by the English Common Law.
Leaving aside that, as you noted, no common law can possibly support prosecution of unprecedented cases of international law, it is important to clarify the logistics of Mr. Milosevic defense - starting with "Is it defense possible?" For instance, it is impossible to defend against un-falsifiable charges. My investigation suggests that the ICTY was set to make it impossible to prove beyond the reasonable doubt that Milosevic is not guilty as charged. Justice Arbor was quite proud of her "achievement" in that sense, which explains why she did not feel compelled to use the usual restraints ("alleged", etc.) when talking about the accused (Milosevic).
Godfred - I much appreciate your dedication of keeping the discussion focused. I'd like to know your opinion on priorities. My view is that, given the ICTY mandate, the logistics of defense should come before the tactics. Indeed, how could we help the defense if we are still unclear about the possibility of defense?
John North
Canada - Friday January 23, 2004 at 3:56 pm
Peter Taylor - your post made me think again: we should not ask the Moderator delete the offending posts, after all. How about leaving the nasty posts to serve as samples of provocateur propaganda tactics employed against defenders of justice. There may be problem with this "ignore them" strategy: the Western media has fooled already many people into believing that Serbs are are hate-mongers. The demonization of Serbia was used quite successful in many EU/NA countries to justify NATO the attack. The question remains: could an "ignore them" strategy work against the redoubtable "the Good Us against the Evil Them" doctrine?
John North
Canada - Friday January 23, 2004 at 4:03 pm
Peter Taylor - your post made me think again: maybe we should not ask the Moderator delete the offending posts, after all. How about leaving the nasty posts to serve as samples of provocateur propaganda tactics employed against defenders of justice? There may be problem with this "ignore them" strategy: the Western media has fooled already many people into believing that Serbs and their "supporters" are are hate-mongers. The demonization of Serbia was used quite successful in many EU/NA countries. The question remains: How could an "ignore them" strategy work against the redoubtable "the Good Us against the Evil Them" doctrine? Can "we" ignore "them", when the perception is that "we" are the Evil and "them" the Good ones?
John North
Canada - Friday January 23, 2004 at 4:16 pm
John North: In an open forum there is no immediate means of stopping these "Wally" posts. In the past the moderator has eventually done a good job in deleting these obscenities as he is required so to do:JURIST reserves the right to block or remove posts that are in violation of law or that advocate illegal acts, that are obscene, disruptive, defamatory, threatening, harassing or abusive ...
It takes time for him to get round to the task. In the mean time let us keep our wits about us and recognise that their purpose is purely destructive.
Peter Taylor
Herts/UK - Friday January 23, 2004 at 5:02 pm
John,
THIS from the UN webpages, down to PROCEEDINGS and then the third point: The conduct of the trial draws from both the civil law and common law systems: elements of the adversarial and inquisitorial procedures are combined.
It may be too loose an association but his is what the DICTIONARY says: COMMON LAW, Definition:
[n] (civil law) a law established by following earlier judicial decisions
[n] a system of jurisprudence based on judicial precedents rather than statutory laws; "common law originated in the the unwritten laws of England and was later applied in the United States"
As English as they come!
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La - Friday January 23, 2004 at 5:08 pm
There are no "their", there is only one: Arben Q , whether he is gay or monkey i dont know but he is an retarded obcene provocateur for sure!
Maximilian Gorshkov
Bolsjoj tjuters - Friday January 23, 2004 at 5:50 pm
Common Law and Adversarial
Some International CT, a little tilted towards Anglo Law!
Mr. NIce, May, Robinson, and the whole load of prosecutors are all from a Common Law background!
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La - Friday January 23, 2004 at 9:48 pm
Peter - Agree, lets keep it clean as much as possible and trust the Moderator.
Gogol - many thanks for the good links; very helpful.
John North
Canada - Saturday January 24, 2004 at 2:16 am
It seems that everywhere the imperialists go it is always the same thing. Brendan O'Neill reviews a new book Clinton-Iran-Bosnia written by Professor Cees Wiebes, a senior lecturer in the Department of International Relations at Amsterdam University.He concludes that “The Bosnian war, it seems, has been looked at in black and white for too long.” Intelligence and the War in Bosnia Further ”Wiebes says that 'everyone was aware' that the Mujihadeen were in Bosnia; after all, 'they killed a British soldier early on, so Britain and others were certainly aware of their arrival” From Bosnia they moved to Kosovo. Training was provided by Osama in Afghanistan.Richard Aldrich Professor of Politics at the University of Nottingham in the Guardian review of the same book Guardian continues the Srebrenica lie, while at the same time exposes the lies on the war in Bosnia. The Hague Tribunal continues to use those lies shamelessly.
Walter Trkla
Kamloops BC
Canada - Saturday January 24, 2004 at 7:59 am
I have often had occasion to draw attention to Peter Taylor's contributions to this "JURIST Trial Discussion", which easily bear comparison with any on this forum (in fact it was a comment of Peter's which once made me think, that this dicussion is potentially useful).I never contested the importance, the usefulness of his comments on 'Kosovo' in particular, - and I certainly see the irony in that while Milosevic is being 'tried', his NATO adversaries (including the Danish Gvt. and) continue to support the atrocities of their KLA allies (January 23, 2004 at 11:18 am).
On the other hand I am not embarrassed over allegations against the Danish NATO-forces in Kosovo (or the failure so far of Danish media and our Minister of Defence to follow up on these). Rather than attempting to exclude such topics from this discussion, I currently strive to examine whether there is any truth in the particular allegations brought up by Tanjug concerning 'an incident in the village of Matica on 6 January, 2004'.
Alás, I would not be surprised if the Danish Kfor "demolished houses" and "left a chaos behind them" in Matica; but I am surprised that serious discussion participants attempting to demonstrate the unfairness of the Milosevic 'trial' appear to be ready to waive the need for evidence?
The ICTY prosecutors' lack of evidence - (not least with regard to the incident at Racak five years ago!) - has left the ICTY Prosecution with a hopeless case, giving away their U.S./NATO employers as liers and bunglers.
Should we not avoid putting ourselves in a similar situation?
The least we could do is keeping this discussion focused on the requirements of a 'fair trial'. While it is obviously not my duty to moderate or "to define the limits of this discussion," I do suggest that it is a responsibility of every participant in the JURIST "Milosevic trial Discussion" to consider 'the possibility of defense', thus seeking and respecting the priorities.
John North: My own priorities with regard to this forum (which seems to me to having considered every item, often more than once!) would be organizing (maybe summarizing?) 'what is already there'. While his defense is certainly a matter for mr. Milosevic, the best we can do to help towards a fair(er) 'trial' may be to present and link our valuable JURIST findings (maybe specifically, but not exclusively those comments of Peter Taylor's on Witness B6!) as well as possible - as you are yourself implying (January 23, 2004 at 3:32 pm).
Godfred Louis-Jensen
Copenhagen
DF E N M A R K- Saturday January 24, 2004 at 9:19 am
HTML Correction
Hopefully - Saturday January 24, 2004 at 9:19 am
- Saturday January 24, 2004 at 9:55 am
Godfred,You are very naive, indeed, to believe that the judges at the Hague are interested in reading the delirious rantings of the "Free Milosevic" nuts on this forum.
I'm afraid you and the other pro-Milosevic nuts are guilty of "Ignoratio Elenchi"
Arben Qosja
Chicago
USA - Saturday January 24, 2004 at 10:20 am
Provocation not information.We've seen it all before.
Peter Taylor
Herts/UK - Saturday January 24, 2004 at 12:31 pm
Freedom and DemocracyAs battalion commander Lt. Col. Nathan Sassaman has remarked, "With a heavy dose of fear and violence and a lot of money for projects, I think we can convince these people that we are here to help them."
Who do they think they are kidding? Camp Bondsteel in Kosovo next to Oil Corridor 8. Ten Billion dollars worth of oil shipped out of Iraq - so far - by Anglo/US oil companies.
I think you've convinced everyone that you're here and there with Phony Tony to help yourselves - to other folks property.
Peter Taylor
Herts/UK - Saturday January 24, 2004 at 1:03 pm
The passionate controversies of the legitimate posters who are interested in international Justice are viewed by Arben Qosja as preoccupation of nutty people. What hate mongers like Qusja don’t understand is that knowledge alters what we seek as well as what we find.Arben, you must cross your Rubicon which every racist must cross, the hate barriers which you and others like you must breach are ultimately those that exist in your own minds. Throughout history vendetta, hate and ignorance has controlled your life and has been your master. Wherever that exists human misery exists. Ignorance and hate strips people of ethical rationalizations and philosophical reflection and makes them conform to lies but what is worse it causes them to act deviantly.
Walter Trkla
Kamloops BC
Canada - Saturday January 24, 2004 at 3:47 pm
Inquisition Summary Jan 20th Many Bosnians (Muslim, Serb, and Croat) found sanctuary in Serbia and now the victim of NATO becomes the accused.
Walter Trkla
Kamloops BC
Canada - Sunday January 25, 2004 at 1:35 am
Tom Zwann recently demonstrated that he is a useful idiot. He is a Dutch sociologist-historian who studies genocide. Comparative genocide studies, that is! Milosevic asked probing questions, but failed to put the problems to Zwann directly.First, Milosevic asked about the competence of sociologists deliberating about genocide, since genocide is a legal concept. Zwann advocated a sociological definition of genocide, and one looser than that used traditionally. Unfortunately, Milosevic did not directly state that since this so-called court is only interested in the legal definition of genocide (yeah right), then sociological and historians' definitions are of no relevance to the case.
Zwann used the following genocides as case examples: Nazi vs. Jews; Ottoman vs. Armenians; Hutu vs. Tutsi in Rwanda; and Khmer Rouge vs. Cambodians. When Milosevic asked about the Ustasa crimes, he went so far as calling them 'in some cases, genocidal acts.' He also minimized the numbers killed in Jasenovac to 'the most reliable' figure of 100,000 - 120,000. When Milosevic read from the Simon Wiesenthal website, a figure of 600,000 Serbs killed in Jasenovac alone, Zwann dismissed this figure as 'interests.' What interests can the Wiesenthal center, a Jewish run organization, have in 'maximizing' the number of Serb victims of Croatian genocide? If anything, it suggests that the Holocaust of the Jews was not a unique event, at least in substance, and that comparable tragedies befell other European peoples like the Armenians, Serbs, and Romas. Furthermore, Zwann suggested that Croatians, Albanians, and other groups in the Balkans had a similar history of 'being victims AND perpetrators of genocidal acts.' According to him, these 'genocidal acts' included the execution of Ustasi at Bleiburg at the end of WWII. Glad to know that the extrajudicial killing of hard-core fascist child-killers is to be compared with mass extermination of men, women, and children in death camps by these same Ustasi killers.
Finally, Zwann suggested that a civil war may include civilian casualties, and that if both parties to a conflict are armed and have fighting forces, then the killing of civilians is merely a part of civil war, and does not hold the dimension of genocide. Milosevic suggested that this was the case in Bosnia (but never put the case of Bosnia directly). Zwann then backpeddled like mad to accommodate OTP lies.
In short, Zwann was of no assistance to the 'court' or anyone, for that matter, as he: 1.) discussed issues from a sociological perspective (totally irrelevant), rather than from a legal perspective; 2.) he used a broader criterion of genocide, one not sanctioned by the Geneva Conventions, and therefore of no legitimacy in the legal picture; 3.) he contradicted himself on the point of civil war vs. genocide; 4.) he minimized numbers of Serbs killed in the genocide of 1941-1945, directly in contradiction to the highly respected Wiesenthal Center.
Finally, his most important role in the 'trial' was to prove that the prosecution has absolutely no case for ethnic cleansing, let alone genocide, and that it has therefore resorted to sociologists as expert witnesses, instead of producing documentation, i.e. orders, plans, and insider witness testimony, that would confirm their claims. They are grasping at straws, and it is a pitiful sight to see.
P M
USA - Sunday January 25, 2004 at 3:47 am
P.M.,I almost fell out of my chair when he told Mr. Nice that the Ustasha were the victims of genocide.
Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States - Sunday January 25, 2004 at 3:57 am
Andy: in a demented sense of the word, we could indeed interpret the Communist destruction of the Ustasas as 'genocide.' The Ustasas were a 'group' and the Partisans had a 'plan' to 'destroy' them.Funny how in the 'crucial' days of making their case, the Prosecution must resort to witnesses such as pseudosociologist and genocide-revisionist Zwann, Tudjman's stooge and co-criminal Sarinic, and yet another facts-based witness from Prijedor.
Where oh where is all that massive documentation of Milosevic-engineered genocide. Perhaps, Mr. Tigelaar, you could provide us with a recorded conversation or two, some delightful piece of 'evidence' that the prosecution is just itching to spring on us all.
P M
USA - Sunday January 25, 2004 at 7:33 am
Peter TaylorCan you provide a reference for the KLA Commander at Racak whose ICTY testimony stated that he gangpressed ( aka "collected volunteers") the day of the firefight ?>
Andy
keep up the daily reports, they are priceless.
AP V
NY
NY - Sunday January 25, 2004 at 8:26 am
The Yugoslavia merry go round: http://www.bhhrg.org/CountryReport.asp?CountryID=20&ReportID=210
J Gonzales
Spain - Sunday January 25, 2004 at 12:41 pm
The Spanish government as well as the Canadian government provided an air force for the KLA terrorists and the Mujahideen in Bosnia, while these same governments refuses to tolerate the Basque separatists or the Quebec separatists. Spain and Canada continue to occupy parts of Yugoslavia and contribute to the merry go of elections. The web page you provided does not summarize NATO crimes that contributed and continue to contribute to this instability. What the Spanish government refuses to accept in Madrid or Barcelona, and the Canadian government in Quebec they should not impose on others in Belgrade.
Walter Trkla
Kamloops
Canada - Sunday January 25, 2004 at 3:17 pm
Please, this was not an attempt to insult readers of the fora. BHHRG are at least more honest than mainstream media in general over here.You are doing a great job! ICTY will fail.
J Gonzales
Spain - Sunday January 25, 2004 at 5:19 pm
"Provocateurs" Aquila non capit muscas , don't waste your time , the sun can't be covered with one finger the ICTY has no case , it has been ilegal before birth it is a misscarriage a product of the rape of justice and int.law by the U.S. NATO led aggression against a soverign country that was no treat to any of his neighbors nor to the security of the U.S. Security that has been put in jeopardy by the same ones that they helped and still do in the Balkan region , and all Osamas Omars and Saddams are laughing their ass off thanks to brain "blown" Clinton and his mistress "maddam" Blair
M P
Panama - Sunday January 25, 2004 at 5:43 pm
AP V: I have never made the claim that the KLA commander at Racak admitted that he press ganged local civilians into the fight with the Serb security forces on 15 January 1999: Though I believe someone did post such a comment here.What I have claimed is that Major Radosavljevic was in command of the Serb forces, which attacked Racak. This I gleaned from a BBC programme on Milosevic broadcast last year. I have also claimed that General Radosavljevic, which is his current rank, has not and never will be indicted according to ICTY declarations. Thus the ICTY has destroyed its own case. How can there have been a massacre at Racak if the man in charge of the operation has not been and never will be indicted for such a crime?
My search in answer to your question reveals that Shukir Buja was the regional commander in Racak. This is the start of his ICTY testimony. He explains that he was charged, among other things with recruiting for the KLA but does not explain how he went about this task. This is the end of his testimony.
Buja’s evidence confirms that Racak was a heavily armed and fortified KLA stronghold using civilian houses as headquarters, an armoury and barracks. The fortifications of the village included bunkers and trenches.
Another interesting fact confirmed by Buja was that the headquarters house was owned by a KLA soldier who Buja also confirms was killed in the action. Milosevic points out in his cross-examination that this KLA soldier’s name Mehmet Mustafa, (along with two others of the same surname) appears on the ICTY indictment list of civilians allegedly massacred! He also admits that some KLA did not wear uniform.
Who got massacred at Racak? Tapuskovic questions Buja:
Q.: Thank you. Mr. Buja, just now, when asked by Mr. Milosevic, you spoke about the 27 Serb policemen that were killed in Rance, and then you • spoke about 17 that were killed in front of the mosque. However, in your statement, you also said that seven Serbs were killed in Pustenik, seven Serbs. That's what you said in your statement, page 17.
A.: Yes. This is about Serbian soldiers and police killed in fighting at Pustenik. This position was in Kacanik municipality, not far from Han • i Elezit.
Q.: So together with the two policemen that were killed on the 15th, the day of the event in Racak, we come to a figure of 47 policemen that were killed during those days; is that right?
Professor Dolecek offers some general relevant opinions in the trial.
Peter Taylor
Herts/UK - Sunday January 25, 2004 at 5:58 pm
Buja closing testimony: 6 June 2002: Page 6359.
Peter Taylor
Herts/UK - Sunday January 25, 2004 at 6:00 pm
Buja closing testimony: 6 June 2002: Page 6359.
Peter Taylor
Herts/UK - Sunday January 25, 2004 at 6:23 pm
Peter Taylor, Could you explain why the ICTY has not charged Major Radosavljevic ?
Dan B
Canada - Sunday January 25, 2004 at 7:40 pm
Gonzales - thanks for a very useful link to the British Helsinki Human Rights Group (BHHRG).
- "... the international community’s treatment of Serbia over the past 12 years has been reprehensible..." Good quote from a respectable British human rights organization to close the argument that Serbia deserved to be "demonized".
- "... Serbs themselves must shoulder some of the blame for their predicament". A good line for opening a sincere debate on FY. BHHRG is not implying that Serbs did something uniquely shameful over the past 12 years, but that nowadays "Too much faith is put in ‘experts’ - BHHRG noted that a politician’s worth is based on his or her ‘expertise’ which naturally, means a lot of letters after someone’s name, usually denoting excellence in the social sciences. The widespread belief in the politician as egg-head implies a complete lack of understanding about the role of a non-political civil service - the normal home of ‘experts’ in democratic countries."
- Contrary to BHHRG statement above, using 'experts' to fool voters/judges/juries has become the state of the art in modern propaganda, especially in the US, where the method was/is used to foster everything, from medical malpractice to the war in Iraq, from criminalizing personal behavior (anti-(hate)speech, anti-tobacco, anti-spanking, now anti-fat) to criminalizing demonstrations, etc. In this context, the Milosevic Prosecutor's employment of 'expert' Zwann is well aligned to what has become the norm in the US courts. In Canada, 'experts' are called now to justify Supreme Court's efforts to redefine marriage and parenting, issues way closer to home that genocide/war crimes. That the Serbs are putting too much trust in experts only shows that Serbia was/is very much western, democratic country, in touch (too much?) with the latest trends. Not a backward country, for sure.
- Contrary to BHHRG, "the normal home" of ‘experts’ is no longer grass-root movements, but the universities - the trial 'experts' are supposed to be well-titled. In this regard, Zwann may have been called by Prosecution solely to confirm the 'trendy' nature of ICTY, to make it look as a court that proceeds 'as usual' in the eyes of the 'democratic' public.
John North
Canada - Sunday January 25, 2004 at 7:45 pm
BHHRG states (Ref 1):
- "The Serbian authorities should be more open about the problems they face in the region." In my view, Milosevic's greatest error was that of not being very open about his problems. He talked too much 'behind the closed doors" and too little in the 'open', giving public interviews when he was still the 'darling' of the West. Clinton got in trouble not because of his sexual transgression, but because he lied about it; Martha Stewart is not in court because of her insider dealings, but because she lied. Indeed, in the adversarial judicial style, lying, including by keeping silent, is taken as obstruction of justice - the felony most likely to be swiftly impress a jury. Milosevic may wish to consider the tactic, as it greatly appeals to Anglo-Saxon audience and it is fully supported by the English Common Law (see how Gandhi exploited it with great success).
- I already mentioned in another post (Thursday January 22, 2004 at 2:37 am), at the Rwanda's tribunal Dallaire admitted his memory leaks and publishing compromises. He is now badly battered by the Defense, yet, by admitting his faults, Dallaire makes that Trial look 'fair' and has actually strengthen the Prosecution's credibility. In contrast, Clark and the others at the Hague have shown none of these 'human' weaknesses and therefore they offer Milosevic great room for playing "Gandhi's card".
- "International media have become much more critical about the KLA activities in the past few weeks and even NATO spokesmen have warned it against "losing international sympathy." Belgrade is not taking advantage of this window of opportunity to explain its position on the region. Without such an explanation journalists and other observers will draw their own conclusions aided by a well-oiled Albanian propaganda machine. The Serbian authorities should also aim to get more Albanians back into the state structures like the courts and police - while there is still some good will." -- a good summary of the problem: What exactly is the position of the current Serb government on Kosovo versus Milosevic's in the 90's?
Ref 1 -- Kosovo, Serbia, Macedonia, March 2000: A Report from the Border Regions [ http://www.bhhrg.org/CountryReport.asp?CountryID=15&ReportID=151&ChapterID=427&next=next&keyword=yugoslavia ]
John North
Canada - Sunday January 25, 2004 at 7:56 pm
RE: Gandhi's Card
Milosevic might consider Gandhi's tactic of focusing less on 'evidence' brought against him and more on the 'perjury' of the witnesses and 'injury' of the Law. Two extremely different people - Gandhi and Hitler - won their day in two different courts with this argument: Your Honor, I cannot plead but guilty in your court... because your court admitted Prosecution to use un-falsifiable evidence against me rendering any kind of judgment impossible. In adversarial systems, such a defense amounts to calling for Jury Nullification, whereby the jury is allowed to ignore both evidence and law and acquit the accused. In inquisitorial system, it calls for Prosecution Termination because in such systems the Judge, as Inquisitor, must ensure that evidence is (a) independent, (b) consistent, and (c) sufficient by itself (no real need for witnesses, let alone experts). Even the Spanish Inquisition had to terminate prosecution (to avoid the charge of persecution) whenever defendants used this tactic. The drawback is that the accused may be convicted as a matter of law anyway (as many heretics, Gandhi, or Hitler were), but that conviction is very easy to overturn nowadays (thanks to Gandhi's precedent) because such convictions are punishment de jure and exoneration de facto.
John North
Canada - Sunday January 25, 2004 at 8:21 pm
Answers/pointers to the questions below would be much appreciated - they go to the motive for changing Milosevic with war crimes.
- What exactly is the position of the current Serb government on Kosovo versus Milosevic's in the 90's? Indeed, what has changed after Milosevic regarding the official position on Kosovo?
- Two presidential polls failed in 2002 due to low turnout. What was the turnout during Milosevic's tenure?
- The current economy vs. during Milosevic's (before 1998), especially in terms of consumer credit?
- What was the rationale for the US Congress to force Yugoslavia into bankruptcy in 1989 (IMF privatisation) leading to January 1991 U.S. Foreign Appropriations legislation that cutoff trade, loans or aid to any republic that held elections that the State Department did not approve? 0- goes for the motive
- What was the rationale for introducing, after Milosevic, the HR 1064 bill - "The Serbian Democratization Act of 2000" - stipulating that sanctions will remain in place until Yugoslavia agrees to (a) cooperate fully with The Hague and hand over anyone charged, (b) to detach Kosovo, (c) grant autonomy to Vojvodina, and (d) give up any claim to previously owned property of the Yugoslav Federation, including its missions, offices and consulates.
John North
Canada - Sunday January 25, 2004 at 10:10 pm
Nice: The accused has spent time arguing, or asking you about, other genocides committed in the Balkans, by groups and individuals, but never by the Serbs?
Zwann: That's correct, yes.
Nice: You refer to, in your report, when looking at the way these crimes may be motivated, at the collective memory, its use and abuse?
Zwann: Yes.
Nice: Is there anything further that should be drawn to our attention about the comparison that the accused is now making between genocides and similar crimes he attributes to the others, while saying that the Serbs had nothing to be blamed for?
Zwann: I think that conclusion would be quite wrong. If I may only point to one example: the Partisan army of Marshall Tito, in '45, '46, purposely, and there were many Serbs involved there, purposely, killed rather large groups of Croatian Ustashi fighters, and also Chetnik Serbian fighters, and so, we didn't go into it, but I think, and I want to emphasize that all groups in the Balkans have a very tragic history. Namely, that they have been victims, and also often perpetrators, of large-scale violent crimes, in their history, and they remember that as part of the collective memory of people. And as has been pointed out by other scholars, you very often see in the case of genocidal acts, that you have to do with repeat offenders, or that it happens again and again, and if you look at the Balkan wars, the first world war, the second world war, and the recent conflict in Yugoslavia, you see that memories of the past are continuously active in the new realms of conflict.
Nice: As a matter of fact, did the late President Tudjman ever allege reciprocity of genocide?
Zwann: I-- would you repeat the question?
Nice: As a matter of fact, did the late President Tudjman ever allege reciprocity of genocide, as between Serbs and Croats.
Zwann: To my knowledge-- I'm not quite sure here what you mean by reciprocity?
Nice: --was it only ever alleged by the Serbs that they were victims, or was it also alleged by the other side, that they were victims?
Zwann: The tragic thing is that most national leaders in the Balkans tend to see themselves as victims and the others as perpetrators. And there is a very great lack of disposition to acknowledge any guilt in the historical process, and that also has to do with the lack of freedom under communism in Yugoslavia, so the recent past of the second world war was never discussed extensively, scientifically, and intellectually, in a sufficient sense. So these old memories, which are partly truth and partly myth, have never been dismantled, so to speak, by serious research, and serious, open, discussion.
Nice: You made a reference, in answer to an observation or question by the accused to the dirt in front of the door. In the questions he subsequently raised with you, has he ever dealt with that topic?
Zwann: Not to my mind.
Nice: His honor Judge Robinson queried with you the significance of numbers killed, when the accused was proposing numbers from the second world war killed, larger than you would accept. Is maximizing numbers a feature of reliance on collective memory when motivating crimes of this kind?
Zwann: That is very often the case, though I would also like to underline that there is real tragedy in the past of the Serbian people, in this case, that they have been victims of genocidal attacks, so there is some historical ground for Serbian people to see themselves as victims of the aggression of others, but this is also the case for Croatians ,and Albanians, and for many other groups.
P M
USA - Sunday January 25, 2004 at 10:11 pm
This really bears repeating!Nice: Is there anything further that should be drawn to our attention about the comparison that the accused is now making between genocides and similar crimes he attributes to the others, while saying that the Serbs had nothing to be blamed for?
Zwann: I think that conclusion would be quite wrong. If I may only point to one example: the Partisan army of Marshall Tito, in '45, '46, purposely, and there were many Serbs involved there, purposely, killed rather large groups of Croatian Ustashi fighters, and also Chetnik Serbian fighters,
P M
USA - Monday January 26, 2004 at 2:50 am
RE: Gandhi's Card (post 2)
I believe that a un-falsifiable (Gandhi) technique may work to even close the case against Milosevic because:
- The Prosecution's evidence is flimsy - Clark and Zwann did a great job in emphasizing just that.
- The Judge is will not decide anything without US approval
- The US is very uneasy about the ICTY - international law in general
- Convicting a head of state would create a precedent the US hates, especially these days, after Iraq 2
- The idea that, someday, a former US president may be charged personally in an international court is a living nightmare in the US -- "Mr. Speaker, the trial of Slobadon [sic] Milosevic threatens U.S. sovereignty. The fact that this trial can be carried out, in the name of international justice, should cause all the Americans to cast a wary eye on the whole principal of the U.N. War Crimes Tribunal. The prosecution of Milosevic , a democratically elected and properly disposed leader of a sovereign country, could not be carried out without full U.S. military and financial support. Since we are the only world superpower, the U.N. court becomes our court under our control. But it is naive to believe our world superpower status will last forever. The precedence now being set will 1 day surely come back to haunt us." ( http://wwws.house.gov/search97cgi/s97_cgi?action=View&VdkVgwKey=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Ehouse%2Egov%2Fpaul%2Fcongrec%2Fcongrec2001%2Fcr071701B%2Ehtm&DocOffset=5&DocsFound=25&QueryZip=yugoslavia&SourceQueryZip=vdkvgwkey+%3Csubstring%3E%22%2Fpaul%2F%22&Collection=members&ViewTemplate=memberview%2Ehts&)
I am not sure why Milosevic defense supporters are not lobbying the US and the UK govts. and legislature. It seems to me that the two have most to loose from Milosevic being convicted. Am I missing here something? Indeed, can anyone say Who would benefit from a head of state being convicted at The Hague?
John North
Canada - Monday January 26, 2004 at 3:32 am
Ron Paul testimony (1)
Ron Paul represents the 14th District of Texas in the United States House. He is no friend of Mr. Milosevic, so his official 'testimonies' do qualify as "independent".
- "No, we do not want the international court to apply to us, but it is okay with our money, our prestige and our pressure to endorse the International Criminal Tribunal for Yugoslavia, so that we can go in there and arrest the leaders that we have decided were the bad guys and leave the good guys alone, as if there were not bad guys on both sides in Yugoslavia." (1)
- "... U.S. Special Envoy to the Balkans Robert Gelbard, while visiting Belgrade, praised Milosevic for his cooperation in Bosnia and called the separatists in Kosova "without question a terrorist group." So how should we expect a national government to treat its terrorists? Likewise, our Secretary of State in 1991 gave a signal to Milosevic by saying, `All Yugoslavia should remain a monolithic state.'" (2)
- "Mr. Speaker, the trial of Slobadon Milosevic threatens U.S. sovereignty. The fact that this trial can be carried out, in the name of international justice, should cause all the Americans to cast a wary eye on the whole principal of the U.N. War Crimes Tribunal. The prosecution of Milosevic , a democratically elected and properly disposed leader of a sovereign country, could not be carried out without full U.S. military and financial support. Since we are the only world superpower, the U.N. court becomes our court under our control. But it is naive to believe our world superpower status will last forever. The precedence now being set will 1 day surely come back to haunt us." (2)
References
- http://wwws.house.gov/search97cgi/s97_cgi?action=View&VdkVgwKey=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Ehouse%2Egov%2Fpaul%2Fcongrec%2Fcongrec2001%2Fcr071801%2Ehtm&DocOffset=12&DocsFound=25&QueryZip=yugoslavia&SourceQueryZip=vdkvgwkey+%3Csubstring%3E%22%2Fpaul%2F%22&Collection=members&ViewTemplate=memberview%2Ehts&
- http://wwws.house.gov/search97cgi/s97_cgi?action=View&VdkVgwKey=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Ehouse%2Egov%2Fpaul%2Ftst%2Ftst98%2Ftst031698%2Ehtm&DocOffset=14&DocsFound=25&QueryZip=yugoslavia&SourceQueryZip=vdkvgwkey+%3Csubstring%3E%22%2Fpaul%2F%22&Collection=members&ViewTemplate=memberview%2Ehts&
John North
Canada - Monday January 26, 2004 at 3:33 am
Ron Paul testimony (2)
- "Milosevic obviously is no saint but neither are the leader of the Croates, the Albanians or the KLA." (2) [only Milosevic was a legimitate leader, who had the obligation to react against movements threatening the security and integrioty of a souverain state ]
- "The NATO leaders who vastly expanded the death and destruction in Yugoslavia with 78 days of bombing in 1999 are certainly not blameless." (2)
- "The $1.28 billion promised the puppet Yugoslavian government is to be used to rebuild the cities devastated by U.S. bombs" (2) [installing or supporting puppet regimes is a crime against peace, isn't it? Crimes against peace are the highest form of crime in international law]
- "...while orchestrating a U.N. kangaroo court to bring the guilty to justice at the Hague." (2)
- "For all this to be accepted, the press and internationalists have had to demonize Milosevic to distance themselves from the horrors of others including NATO." " (2) [the only official admission known to me regarding governmental control of the mainstream media; other?]
References: idem Ron Paul testimony (1)
John North
Canada - Monday January 26, 2004 at 3:34 am
Ron Paul testimony (3)
- "NATO's air strikes assisted the KLA in cleansing Kosovo of Serbs in the name of assisting Albanian freedom fighters. No one should be surprised when that is interpreted to mean tacit approval for Albanian expansionism in Macedonia. While terrorist attacks by former members of the KLA against Serbs are ignored, the trial of the new millennium, the trial of Milosevic, enjoys daily support from the NATO-U.S. propaganda machine." (2)
- "In our effort to stop an independent-minded and uncooperative with the international community president of a sovereign country, U.S. policy was designed to support an equally if not worse organization, the KLA." (2)
- "The U.N. War Tribunal in the Hague should insult the intelligence of all Americans. This court currently can only achieve arrest and prosecution of leaders of poor, small, or defeated nations. There will be no war criminals brought to the Hague from China, Russia, Britain, or the United States no matter what the charges. But some day this approach to world governing will backfire. " (2) [see my Gandhi's Card view]
- "Realizing the weakness of the charges against Milosevic the court has quietly dropped the charges for committing genocide." (2)
References: idem Ron Paul testimony (1)
John North
Canada - Monday January 26, 2004 at 3:41 am
Ron Paul testimony (4)
- "Milosevic will be tried not before a jury of his peers but before a panel of politically appointed judges, all of whom were approved by the NATO countries,.." (2)
- "Under both U.N. and international law the bombing of Serbia and Kosovo was illegal." (2)
- "Ironically, the mess in which we've been engaged in Yugoslavia has the international establishment supporting the side of Kosovo independence rather than Serbian sovereignty." (2)
- "The Serbs, despite NATO's propaganda, will not lightly accept the imprisonment of their democratically elected (and properly disposed) president no matter how bad he was." (2) [it went already way past that. Even if the Serbian people continue to fail to stand up and fight for their rights - including that of judging their own leaders - the fallout of a Milosevic conviction will harm the victors]
- "Money and power has permitted the United States the luxury of dictating terms for Milosevic's prosecution,.. " (2)
References: idem Ron Paul testimony (1)
End of Ron Paul "testimony" postings. Sorry for the length, but I thought it useful to recapitulate what is already officially stated in the US legislature. I have found nowhere official rebuttals of these statements. A listing of US reps that might be lobbied to help call for a mistrial would be invaluable, I guess. Anyone knowing other US reps critical of ICTY/Milosevic legal case?
John North
Canada - Monday January 26, 2004 at 3:43 am
Thanks for your help Mr Zwaan. If Tito's partisans, some of whom were Serbs, knocked out the Ustasi/Cetniks and that's a case of GENOCIDE and war crime...
WHAT THE HELL ARE NAGASAKI AND HIROSHIMA, DRESDEN, VIETNAM, LAOS ET AL?
By those standards, Milosevic smells like a rose!
Now that's a case of presenting things in terms of proportionality. Most helpful, Mr Zwaan.
David
Oztralia - Monday January 26, 2004 at 4:09 am
Listing of the 12 companies that have paid $250,000 to have an executive (in parentheses) serve as one of the directors on the NATO summit's host committee to support the attack on Yugoslavia (April 1999) Most sell weapons or weapons related technologies and have declared their wish to help the newly emerging Balkan countries (including, hopefully, the new Serbian state) better arm themselves:
- Ameritech (Richard Notebaert)
- DaimlerChrysler (Robert Liberatore)
- Boeing (Christopher W. Hansen)
- Ford Motor (Jacques A. Nasser)
- General Motors (George A. Peapples)
- Honeywell (Michael R. Bonsignore)
- Lucent Technologies (Richard A. McGinn)
- Motorola (Arnold Brenner)
- Nextel Communications (Daniel F. Akerson)
- SBC Communications (Edward E. Whitacre Jr.)
- TRW (Joseph Gorman)
- United Technologies (George David)
John North
Canada - Monday January 26, 2004 at 4:27 am
David - Who's accusing Milosevic of genocide? Could not find such a charg... Is there a new edition, so to speak? As far as I know, the Prosecution has abstained from charging him with the punishable offenses of (a) Genocide; (b) Conspiracy to commit genocide; (c) Direct and public incitement to commit genocide; (d) Attempt to commit genocide; or (e) Complicity in genocide. Basically, Mr. Milosevic was accused of having "participated in a joint criminal enterprise, the purpose of which was the forcible and permanent removal of the majority of non-Serbs from large areas of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina". Genocide implies physical killing, not removal, however forced or permanent. Do I miss something here?
John North
Canada - Monday January 26, 2004 at 4:32 am
Dan B: How can anyone explain the conduct of the ICTY: Why for example have the KLA leaders not been indicted for their many and ongoing atrocites in Kosovo?There is only one legitmate and legal reason for not indicting General Radosavljevic: that is because he was carrying out at Racak a legitimate counter terror operation during which his forces suffered 47 dead.
Peter Taylor
Herts/UK - Monday January 26, 2004 at 5:05 am
>Do I miss something here?Yes, a few days ago, Nice, Zwann, and Co. lumped expulsion together with 'alternative means' of 'physical destruction' and therefore genocide.
P M
USA - Monday January 26, 2004 at 7:35 am
Croatia genocide has been dropped but Bosnian one is still current, unless someone can point out otherwise.
'Milosevic Indictment for Bosnia'
David
Oztralia - Monday January 26, 2004 at 7:53 am
The Serbs are better arming themselves by getting rid of their Stinger missiles for American ones, the ones the Americans have an antidote for. Apart from disarming heavily otherwise! It's like the gun reform laws in the West. The people shall only have pitchforks when the masters come. No capacity for resistance please!
- Monday January 26, 2004 at 8:15 am
The ICTY exeeds all qualifications for an ilegal entity and has became a "Caligula's" court , with "incitatus" May as main judge . Law pro's that don't want to see this do not deserve to exercise the profession.
M P
Panama - Monday January 26, 2004 at 8:29 am
Peter Taylor you dont need lesson in realpolitik because I read you all the time. So when I tell you this you might think in a different way.General Radosavljevic holds position here in Serbia chef of Gendarmes. He change sides for October 2000. He met with Djindjic men before revolution. DOS promised him position and some protection. DOS promised some protection to other generals like Lukic and Pavkovic who also worked for DOS. That wasnt enough protection in the end Lukic, Pavkovic will go. But most important is Serbian decision to send troops to Avganisatan. The Americans agreed with Radosaveljevic to send Gendarmes. The Americans are happy with decision to send Serb troops into dangerous areas. The Americans gave protection to Radosavljevic from Hague.
Hague will anyway have to prove Racak again when Lukic and Pavkovic arrives at Hague. Pavkovic was commander in Kosovo. Only reason I see why Rado is not at Hague are realpolitik.
Moderator thank you for making discussion avilable to me. I could not read any message for ten days.
Walter Trkla how dare you say that crowds in Belgrade were propoganda? You are free to say that you disagree with those in the crowds but we were there in 91,96. Ordinary people of Serbia standing in freezing cold snow. This was amazing brotherhood for us. We rejected policies that meant war for our people.
Propoganda does come in many ways Mr Trkla your comment about our crowd shows us this well.
Arandjel Pasic
Jug - Monday January 26, 2004 at 8:50 am
"Michael and Me"
E-Mail to Michael Moore, Sat, 17 Jan 2004; unanswered (surprise, surprise), so here is its public debut.From: Dennis Revell
To: mike@michaelmoore.com
Subject: Wesley Clark is a War Criminal
"Dear Michael:
As an admirer of yours, reader of all your books (except the latest - haven't got around to it), and purchaser of your films "Bowling for Columbine" and "Roger and Me", I can't tell you how dissapointed I am that you have now thrown your weight behind Wesley Clark as Democratic Presidential candidate.
On the other hand, Wesley Clark might be a particularly good candidate: unlike most previous Presidential hopefuls, who seem to have been content to actually have achieved that office before turning into War-Criminals, it may be argued that Wesley Clark already being one may have flushed that kind of nonsense out of his system.
I'm referring, of course, to his involvement in the Yugoslavia/Serbia debacle. As an example, his subordinate during the bombing of Yugoslavia, OK, Kosovo/Serbia, if you prefer, General Michael Short stated:
''I think no power to your refrigerator, no gas to your stove, you can't get to work because the bridge is down - the bridge on which you held your rock concerts and you all stood with targets on your heads. That needs to disappear at three o'clock in the morning." (U.S. Air Force General Michael Short quoted in 'International Herald Tribune' 14 May 1999.)
The deliberate targetting of civilian facilities is, of course, in contravention of the Geneva Convention - a War Crime. Now, Wesley Clark did not berate his subordinate for this statement, and in fact bombing of facilities for civilian use, including hospitals, homes, and chemical factories did occur - really great idea the last one, but, hey, what the hell, they were using DU bombs anyway, just like Bush does, so what difference is a little chemical pollution going to make?
Of course, it's entirely possible that you hold to the depressingly almost standard 'lefty' black-and-white view that Milosevic was a ruthless dictator and so he and the Serbs that supported him (the majority) got everything they deserve, and this guy writing to you now is of the "Free"Republic(an) howling jackal variety. Well, I can assure you that nothing is further from the truth. And that applies to most of if not all of this paragaph's first sentence.
Firstly, I have nothing but contempt for the "Free"Republic(an) website. Secondly I have argued successfully against the placing of too much reliance on that website by those (like me) who do not accept or are wary of the standard "Martin Sheen" Hollywood lefty view of events concerning the former Yugoslavia. Thirdly, Milosevic was absolutely NOT a dictator, in spite of what Martin Sheen thinks. He was democratically elected three times, and would have been a fourth time too after the "war" (piss-taking "", as real wars are usually more evenly matched, and really, really, really necessary), were it not for around $100 million of US taxpayers' money funnelled in suitcases over the border, no doubt by the CIA, for the benefit of Milosevic's opponents. Nor for CIA backing for Otpor, which, most dissapointingly, given the CIA's tawdry history in Latin America, Sheen seems almost proud enough to boast about. Moreover, there was not a peep of complaint from the West concerning the integrity of those elections. Sure, the fundamentalist Moslem and even Al-Qaeda backed "insurgents" in KosovO discouraged voting in Yugoslav or Serbian elections, but that's hardly something to lay at Milosevic's feet. Fourthly, absolutely not one of the Serbian kids that had their arms, legs and heads blown off under Wesley Clark's command deserved that fate any more than any one of the Iraqi kids suffering the same fate in more recent times. Nor did the people in the train on the Grdelica bridge that had the shit blown out of them, by Wesley Clark's pal General Michael Short.
I realise that it can be difficult to change an entrenched position. Years of incessant propaganda has that effect on all of us, unless you resist it, and take the time and trouble to dig deeper. The fact is that people, a lot of people, have built whole careers, hell, even won Pullitzer prizes on incessant demonisation of the Serbs and Milosevic. Very few, if any of them, have actually bothered to watch the "Trial" of Milosevic at the Hague. Nor Wesley Clark's recent participation in that "Trial". Hey, wait a minute, what am I saying, no one could watch that; it was in closed session, and with Wesley Clark being given a "heads-up" on what the questions would be beforehand - bit of unusual procedure for a law-court, wouldn't you say?
My (successful) argument against what I saw as too much reliance on quoting FreeRepublic, which can be found in the archives of the well known Jurist Law Milosevic "Trial" discussion forum was basically that they were only against the aggression against Yugoslavia because anything that Clinton did must be bad. The irony here is that all the good things that Yugoslavia stood for is anathema to them: universal health care and education. Another irony, and danger, is that precisely because those howling right wing jackals there were against that aggression, this could be an argument, a fallacious one, but nevertheless an argument, for pro-Democrats, and some of those of even greater left wing persuasion to be convinced of the great morality and correctness of such "bombing for humanity".
The sad thing is Democrats seem hardly less susceptible to committing War Crimes when in power than Republicans. I feel the best thing than can be said about them in regard to this is perhaps that's because they fear looking less hawkish than the Republicans. That said, I would prefer a Democratic Administration, both now and forever in preference to Republican; but more especially now rather than the bunch of unelected raving nut-jobs currently running the country. But not one led by Wesley Clark. People abroad, or aliens as the Administration unpleasantly likes to call them, aren't concerned whether the current US President bombing them is Republican or Democrat; they'd really rather just not be bombed at all. The excuse of one Party or the other, that "it was the other Party that bombed you", doesn't wash; correctly they see it as AMERICA doing the bombing. And, as I'm sure you know, even much of the rest of the World that the US hasn't attacked (yet) is getting more than a bit pissed off that the only way many Americans get to learn any World geography is when their military bombs it. There is a better way.
I'm not an American citizen, so some might argue that this isn't much of my business. Not you, I'm sure, as you realise like all intelligent people that who stands in line to be President of the United States, is the business of every citizen of the World, especially those most likely to be in the path of the next bomb run/election ploy. I have, however, lived here long enough to naturalise; but haven't, initially because I could not with any honesty and integrity sign on to all that 2nd Amendment bullshit; but more latterly I think it's because I couldn't face the pain of having half my brains sucked out through my nose with a straw.
Well, I am not of the howling jackal ilk, as my website extremely critical of the "war" against Iraq indicates. The sad fact is that we were all lied to about Yugoslavia just as we were far more incompetently about Iraq. This is a genuine appeal for you to reconsider your pledge of support for Wesley Clark. I won't burden you with hosts of references and website links - you and your staff have well proven that when you choose to research something, you seem to do an impeccable job - and any bright interested kid with Internet access can find out enough about this stuff to at least raise extremely serious doubts.
Sincerely,
Dennis Revell.[ ... contact details provided here ... ]
P.S: I would have copied this to Wesley Clark if his website that you regrettably advertise had anything other than one of those silly console E-Mail facilities; and Martin Sheen too, if he had an easily available E-Mail address (or I could be bothered to try harder to find one).
If you reply to this in an 'interested' way, I'll hunt out the arguments related to "Free"Republic I made on the Jurist's website - it's a bit tedious to do, which is why I haven't done it yet. ;-)"
Dennis Revell
Etats-Unis - Monday January 26, 2004 at 9:02 am
John North:when and how would the ICTY Prosecution have 'abstained from charging' Milosevic with 'Genocide' as suggested in your posting of January 26, 2004 at 4:27 am?
What exactly may we have been missing? Could you kindly direct us to pages of the Trial Transcripts in support of your assumption?
According to the ICTY's Indictment (Case No. IT-01-51-I) - to which David refers - the 'Bosnia' charges against Milosevic comprise:
COUNTS 1 and 2: GENOCIDE OR COMPLICITY IN GENOCIDE
Godfred Louis-Jensen
Copenhagen
D E N M A R K - Monday January 26, 2004 at 9:25 am
U.S. realpolitik? Excuse me for making this digression: " Cheney: U.S. wants Europe support"
Godfred Louis-Jensen
Copenhagen
D E N M A R K - Monday January 26, 2004 at 10:01 am
Peter TaylorBuja says he collected volunteers from the village of Racak..........given what we know about the KLA methods (Remi, Ramush, & Gashi for example) one can safely conclude that these poor un-fortunates were gangpressed into service that day.
AP V
NY
NY - Monday January 26, 2004 at 10:04 am
Arandjel: Yes indeed I am very well aware of Old Nick: the familiar title afforded to Niccolo Machiavelli.However I still do not understand your argument about General Radosavljevic. As a Major he was charged with the task of eliminating a terrorist stronghold in the Racak region. Casualties of the KLA or their supporters in this action - declared a massacre by CIA agent Walker - were used as a pretext for Nato’s war on Serbia leading to the effective expulsion of Serbs from Kosovo.
The ICTY, during the Nato bombardment, indicted Milosevic specifically with ordering this ‘massacre’: Yet the officer who carried out the attack was not then or ever after so indicted - or indeed is ever to be so indicted.
I can see how your hypothesis may account for events after Nato’s war. But how could Milosevic be accused of ordering a massacre at Racak when the officer who actually carried out the action at Racak was not so charged at the time of the indictment of Milosevic
You are asking me to stretch my credence in Real Politic to far: Are you claiming that Radosavljevic carried out this ‘massacre’ on Nato’s orders in order to embarrass Milosevic?
Peter Taylor
Herts/UK - Monday January 26, 2004 at 11:54 am
Peter Taylor,I would not pretend to "understand" the argument made by Arandjel Pasic (January 26, 2004 at 8:29 am)either, - but I also fail to recognize that the ICTY indicted Milosevic specifically with "ordering" the alledged massacre at Racak (January 26, 2004 at 10:04 am).
Agreed that this socalled massacre was indeed - as you suggest - "used as a pretext for Nato’s war on Serbia", I believe that the ICTY (or NATO!) 'merely' charged - and still charges - that "forces of the FRY and Serbia, acting at the direction, with the encouragement, or with the support of Slobodan MILOSEVIC (and others!)...murdered...Kosovo Albanian civilians..." at Racak,
ref.: " INDICTMENT, Clause 98"
Hence mr. Milosevic is charged with 'directing' or 'supporting' the action, but not with any ordering of murder (which did NOT happen anyway as described by ICTY (NATO), - as the Prosecution's case has been serving to prove).
Colonel General Dragoljub OJDANIC, the then Chief of the General Staff, (who was indeed charged at the time of the Indictment against Milosevic), would be the one to order (or otherwise to 'direct' the VJ), -pursuant to acts issued by the President. Rather than wondering about the reason for not indicting General Radosavljevic, may it not be more important to note (and investigate) that to this date the case against Ojdanic (and others already in 'custody' at The Hague under the same Indictment) has not taken the ICTY anywhere?
Godfred Louis-Jensen
Copenhagen
D E N M A R K - Monday January 26, 2004 at 12:17 pm
Godfred, David -- Re: "According to the ICTY's Indictment (Case No. IT-01-51-I) - to which David refers - the 'Bosnia' charges against Milosevic comprise: COUNTS 1 and 2: GENOCIDE OR COMPLICITY IN GENOCIDE". So I thought, but then there is the Amended version - Case No. IT-99-37-I (Carla del Ponte Prosecutor, 29 June 2001) - http://www.un.org/icty/indictment/english/mil-ai010629e.htm . I said in my post that I am confused. Is 37-I an add-on to 51-I? Apparently, Ms. Louise Arbor was recently challenged to explain why genocide charges have been dropped against Milosevic; according to the hearsay, she replied 'because of lack of evidence'. Could you kindly clarify this issue for me, please?
John North
Canada - Monday January 26, 2004 at 12:45 pm
PM - you are correct, but, as Mr. Milosevic is now prosecuted on different grounds than those for which he was (illegally) extradited by Serbian Prime Minister, changing the legal definition of genocide to allow for 'alternative means" is technically impossible. If the Prosecutor wishes to 'stretch' it indeed, so much the better for Mr. Milosevic, I guess. For allowing a further 'fuzzification' of the genocide definition will deeply displease all heads of state, especially those of US and UK.
It seems that there are two major agendas at work. One is "militaristic", which is interested in vindicating the new role of NATO; indictment is enough, a conviction may be quite troublesome. The other is "humanistic", driven by those 'open societies' who are using the Trial and the NATO propaganda to weaken state authority in general, of the US in particular; for them, a conviction is necessary to send the message that being a head of state does not mean international impunity. In short, the elected reps may and ought to be 'judged' by the non-elected. This 'inner contraction' belongs to the 'democratic' - capitalistic, system, as Karl Marx would have it:-) However it is, it makes for a shaky ground Mr. Milosevic could exploit in his defense.
In my Gandhi's card view, Milosevic should emphasize his 'former head of state' status and thus align himself with the current head of states worldwide. As a head of state, Milosevic had duties and prerogatives none of the "other leaders" had. He should not shy away for pointing out that he had duties to perform in virtue of him being a democratically elected head of a sovereign state. Some of his duties included acting forcefully, even using exceptional powers, against anything that he felt might threaten the security and integrity of the state. This way, he aligns himself with the head of states today, including Bush, not with KLA and other such leaders.
John North
Canada - Monday January 26, 2004 at 12:50 pm
David - thanks for the link. I'm clearer now. How many times were the charges amended, changed, etc.?
John North
Canada - Monday January 26, 2004 at 12:50 pm
Peter Taylor I dont claim anything at Racak. The answer is I dont know. There were dead bodies. that is only fact I am sure. Walker was before CIA operative. He pronouced massacre before investigation. There is evidence to show big suspicion I agree. But it is question of personal morals for me. I will not stand up and deny horrible crime in case I am wrong. I would feel very sick if I did such thing and found to be wrong. I dont judge others for doing this but I cannot.I admit that I was stupid because I thought Hague might help with truth about what happened at Racak and other places. Instead this Ranta tells one thing for investigation, another for tribunal and another for interview. I hope Milosevic brings her back to tribunal if it is possible to come 2 times.
To go back to real politik. It is my opinion that Radosavljevic was under sealed indictment. Hague did this as kind of favour for DOS / Europe / US until status of Radosavljevic resolved. Liljana Smiljanovic Nin columnist who is often in Hague with good contacts said this long time ago. I think Radosavljevic got lucky because US liked Serbian troops doing dirty work in Avganistan.
I think we argue about different points because I dont make an argument about if Radosavljevic is guilty. My argument is how he is not indicted.
'I would not pretend to "understand" the argument made by Arandjel Pasic.' GLJ please explain what you not understand? It is simple in interests of nation states justice comes second place. Doesnt matter if somebody is guilty or not. It seems to me that everybody on Jurist understands concept.
Arandjel Pasic
Jug - Monday January 26, 2004 at 12:51 pm
Peter Taylor I dont claim anything at Racak. The answer is I dont know. There were dead bodies. that is only fact I am sure. Walker was before CIA operative. He pronouced massacre before investigation. There is evidence to show big suspicion I agree. But it is question of personal morals for me. I will not stand up and deny horrible crime in case I am wrong. I would feel very sick if I did such thing and found to be wrong. I dont judge others for doing this but I cannot.I admit that I was stupid because I thought Hague might help with truth about what happened at Racak and other places. Instead this Ranta tells one thing for investigation, another for tribunal and another for interview. I hope Milosevic brings her back to tribunal if it is possible to come 2 times.
To go back to real politik. It is my opinion that Radosavljevic was under sealed indictment. Hague did this as kind of favour for DOS / Europe / US until status of Radosavljevic resolved. Liljana Smiljanovic Nin columnist who is often in Hague with good contacts said this long time ago. I think Radosavljevic got lucky because US liked Serbian troops doing dirty work in Avganistan.
I think we argue about different points because I dont make an argument about if Radosavljevic is guilty. My argument is how he is not indicted.
'I would not pretend to "understand" the argument made by Arandjel Pasic.' GLJ please explain what you not understand? It is simple in interests of nation states justice comes second place. Doesnt matter if somebody is guilty or not. It seems to me that everybody on Jurist understands concept.
Arandjel Pasic
Jug - Monday January 26, 2004 at 1:24 pm
Helena Ranta is an idiot, pure and simple. That was obvious both from her testimony in the Hague, and the appalling inconsistencies of fact in which she entangles herself and us.
P M
USA - Monday January 26, 2004 at 1:37 pm
My address is Thorton st, Mansfield, Ohio A Vucelic
AP V
NY
NY - Monday January 26, 2004 at 2:09 pm
“If the Prosecutor wishes to 'stretch' it indeed, so much the better for Mr. Milosevic, I guess. For allowing a further 'fuzzification' of the genocide definition will deeply displease all heads of state, especially those of US and UK.”
John, what you said has to do with honest approach to the justice. Since we know what crooks at ICTY are judging and prosecuting I will take freedom to reword what you said, since I am afraid that the following is happening :
“The Prosecutors and judges work together to find a new definition of genocide on which they can agree to, taking a freedom to 'stretch' the old definition of genocide, allowing a further 'fuzzification' of the genocide definition in order to please not all heads of state, but only those of US and UK provided that the new definition allows for Mr. Milosevic to be convicted of any kind of genocide.”
Pera Bora
Ottawa
Canada - Monday January 26, 2004 at 2:11 pm
Godfred: It may be time for you to visit the optician. If you read carefully your own reference - to the indictment - you will see:98. Beginning on or about 1 January 1999 and continuing until the date of this indictment, forces of the FRY and Serbia, acting at the direction, with the encouragement, or with the support of Slobodan MILOSEVIC … have murdered hundreds of Kosovo Albanian civilians. These killings have occurred in a widespread or systematic manner throughout the province of Kosovo and have resulted in the deaths of numerous men, women, and children. Included among the incidents of mass killings are the following:
a. On or about 15 January 1999, in the early morning hours, the village of Racak (Stimlje/Shtime municipality) was attacked by forces of the FRY and Serbia. After shelling by the VJ units, the Serb police entered the village later in the morning and began conducting house-to-house searches. Villagers, who attempted to flee from the Serb police, were shot throughout the village. A group of approximately 25 men attempted to hide in a building, but were discovered by the Serb police. They were beaten and then were removed to a nearby hill, where the policemen shot and killed them. Altogether, the forces of the FRY and Serbia killed approximately 45 Kosovo Albanians in and around Racak. (Those persons killed who are known by name are set forth in Schedule A, which is attached as an appendix to this indictment.)
…
100. By these actions Slobodan MILOSEVIC … planned, instigated, ordered, committed or otherwise aided and abetted the planning, preparation or execution of:
Deportation, murder, persecution. A list of names of those allegedly murdered at Racak follows immediately in Schedule A.
Incidentally in his testimony Buja confirms that men over the age of sixty served in the KLA. It is also possible that there was some “playing with names” which put at least two regular casualties on the ICTY’s list of those ‘massacred’.
Peter Taylor
Herts/UK - Monday January 26, 2004 at 2:19 pm
Peter, there was playing with names (witness statements) and body counts (dis-honourable Ranta herself). I remember that Mr. Milosevic stated that there are three different lists of people that died in Racak and that all three of them are different.
Pera Bora
Ottawa
Canada - Monday January 26, 2004 at 2:50 pm
Evidence is the least of problems for the "Groucho Marx" ICTY court "If this evidence is no good we have this other one" . But this kind of attitude won't take them that far , pretty soon will be "show time" and Pres. Milosevic will make all those clowns at The Hague arguments as noisy as a fly's fart .
M P
Panama - Monday January 26, 2004 at 3:09 pm
The arguments of our OUTHOUSE "lawyers" on this forum are ridiculous and laughable. When Milosevic is convicted of genocide and other crimes against humanity, I'm sure this same group of "lawyers" will prepare a defence for him that will also be laughed out of court.
Arben Qosja
Chicago
USA - Monday January 26, 2004 at 3:09 pm
Ex-Dutch PM quizzed in court over NATO bombing
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La - Monday January 26, 2004 at 3:14 pm
U.N. Prosecutor: West Lacks Will to Catch Karadzic
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La - Monday January 26, 2004 at 3:51 pm
Several examples of doctored tapes of Slobo and Mira...
http://www.palacinke.co.yu/zafrkancije/zvuci/sloba/sloba.htm
These were doctored for fun while Slobo was still the president. Imagine then what the CIA can do?
J. Edgar Hoover
picka materina - Monday January 26, 2004 at 5:15 pm
Colin Powell met with Vladimir Putin in Moscow on Monday. Underscoring widespread concern, Powell says he is worried about Russia's democracy. Colin is concerned that, in Rusia, "Political power is not yet fully tethered to law." -- Look, ma', who's talking... http://www.iht.com/articles/126594.html
Mr. Putin, you've been properly served. If still can't read the writings on the wall, ask Mr. Milosevic, else you and your undemocratic, backward country is going to get "lost in translation". The World (power) is very concerned about the ongoing genocide in Chechnya and other human rights crimes perpetuated by popular thugs...you know the story, don't you?
Can't wait for the International Tribunal for Former Russian Federation to issue the Indictment. Wanna bet it will be from Berlin?
John North
Canada - Monday January 26, 2004 at 5:42 pm
P.M.,I've been looking at some of those conversations that Frank posted on domovina.net.
So far I haven't really seen anything that particularly incriminates Mr. Milosevic. I haven't read all of the conversations yet, but what I've seen so far is pretty much the same as what he was saying in public, or at least it was inline with his publicly stated positions.
AP V,
I vaguely remember what you're referring to. Could you give me a rough timeframe of when this testimony was, and if you remember any words of phrases that were used in that testimony could you post them here?
Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States - Monday January 26, 2004 at 5:46 pm
I bet you were nodding your head in agreement, when, during the recent Kosova War, the Serbian Minister of the Interior held a press conference and stated that all the Albanians that are being shown on television, by the Western media, that were being led on forced marches out of Kosova were really C.I.A. agents being paid $5.00 a day to walk around in circles, so to make it appear that the Serbs were forcefully evicting the Albanians. This was all a C.I.A. plot against the "Heavenly" Serbian people. If you want more concrete sources try reading, "The Expulsion of the Albanians", the memorandum written & introduced by Serbian Dr. Vasa Cubrilovic in 1937. You will notice that the Serbs used his outline word for word during the 1990s. You will know where the Serbs got their inspiration, to commit some of the most heinous and macabre-like crimes since the end of World War II. And don't give me the old, "Well, Dr, Cubrilovic was inconsequential" crap. He was a leading figure in Serbian society. You have the nerve to call Albanians fascist, what about the Serbian crap, like Milosevic and his mentor Dr. Cubrilovic? This is addressed to all Pro-Milosevic people on this board.
Arben Qosja
Chicago
USA - Monday January 26, 2004 at 5:53 pm
To Ana Dokic and other Serb apologists and revisionists:The Chetnik savagery continues... The wave of incidents stepped up during and after the December 28 general election, which saw the ultra-nationalist Serbian Radical Party, SRS, make sweeping gains. The party led by Vojislav Seselj, currently facing war crimes charges in The Hague, emerged the largest party in Serbia's new parliament, and achieved its greatest success in Vojvodina, where it won in 35 of the 45 municipalities. The Radicals lost only in eight mainly Hungarian municipalities in the north and in two dominated by Slovaks. The results sent a ripple of fear through the 30 or so ethnic communities in Vojvodina, where Serbs make up about 65 per cent of the 2 million population. Hungarians are largest minority, with 290,000 people, or just over 14 per cent. Immediately after the launch of the campaign, Novi Sad's Catholic cemetery, where Hungarians, Croats and other minority groups are buried, was desecrated. Police charged against two unnamed juveniles, though the media voiced doubts that the two could have inflicted such damage alone. As in the 1990s, the fiercest attacks have been directed against Vojvodina's remaining Croats. In the course of the election, the chair of the Croat National Council, Lazo Vojnic Hajduk, was assaulted. Over the Catholic Christmas celebrations, Serb emblems, comprising a cross garnished with four "S" letters in Cyrillic, were sprayed over the cars of a journalist of the Zagreb daily Jutarnji List and of other visitors to the Croat cultural centre in Subotica, near the Hungarian border. In Tavankut, the northernmost town of Vojvodina, home mainly to Croats, a monument to the Croat mediaeval peasant leader Matija Gubec, was vandalised twice. The first attack took place in the night of December 28, while the votes in the election were being counted. It was further damaged during New Year's Eve celebrations. The windows of the Croat cultural centre in Sombor were also smashed, while a Catholic cross was pulled down in the village of Mala Bosna. http://www.iwpr.net/index.pl?archive/bcr3/bcr3_2 [...]
Arben Qosja
Chicago
USA - Monday January 26, 2004 at 5:54 pm
Pera Bora -- unfortunately, I have to agree with you that the US/UK state heads may have now second thoughts on the Milosevic case but the stage has already been set for the execution. History, however, moves in mysterious ways. They are already distracted by other events and won't see it (the result) coming.
Most of us may assume that the US is unstoppable. It certainly seems so, but "unstoppable" always implies the possibility of quickly loosing control. At the current speed of events, even a slight US policy mistake would cause the whole bandwagon go haywire thence proceeding according to Murphy's law - whatever 'bad' is possible, it will happen.
Remember that ours is an univocal world, of unprecedented scale - there is no experience savvy politicians can rely on. Accidents do happen when moving as fast and hard as the US does these days... The Milosevic Trial may very well be 'history' before it ends, lost in a total downturn, I'm afraid...
Seeing Colin in Russia, I'm now flooded by too many deja vu that make feel suddenly fatalistic. We may all be too late. The big horrors of history (e.g., WW2) also started with one moving 'slowly', with baby steps, fooling many, including its people, into believing that it won't get out of hand... History is like an old whore: if you want to make her, you better be good at it; in the end, however, she will betray you anyhow.
John North
Canada - Monday January 26, 2004 at 5:55 pm
and on and on... The most serious threats were delivered by telephone to the weekly Hrvatska Rijec (Croat Word) on several occasions during mid-January by a man claiming to represent the Subotica Chetnik Movement. "If your paper is published just one more time I'll kill you all. You've murdered my child," the anonymous male voice said. The paper's editor, Zvonimir Perusic, said the voice wished them "a happy Chetnik New Year" and repeated the threat "We'll kill you all". The attacks have not gone unreported. The Information Bureau of the Serbia-Montenegro Ministerial Council on January 15 demanded a swift response from the police and courts. International journalist organisations including the South East Europe Media Organisation, SEEMO, and the International Press Institute, IPI, also called on the Serbian and authorities to investigate. The president of the League of Vojvodina's Social Democrats and the speaker of the Vojvodina parliament, Nenad Canak, accused the Radicals of spreading fascist ideas and urged the imposition of an official ban on the party. Canak was one of a few party leaders who dared to publicly oppose the ethnic cleansing of Croats and other minorities in Vojvodina by the Radicals in the Nineties. The wave of assaults and threats has awoken painful memories from the wars of the 1990s, when Seselj's Radicals tried to "ethnically cleanse" Vojvodina. Croats were particularly targeted and over 10,000 were forced to flee their homes during June, July and August of 1992. The most notorious incident involved the village of Hrtkovci where more than 450 Croat and ethnically mixed families were forced out in August 1992 after Seselj visited the village. His supporters even Serbianised the name of the village, which was re-designated "Srbislavci". http://www.iwpr.net/index.pl?archive/bcr3/bcr3_2 [...]
Arben Qosja
Chicago
USA - Monday January 26, 2004 at 5:57 pm
And finally, for now... Jovan Komsic, a sociologist, warns that the Radical victory in Vojvodina may have sweeping consequences. "The majority of their voters effectively opted for a vision of Serbia constantly at war with its neighbours since the political platform of the Serbian Radical Party is Greater Serbia," he told the Vojvodina daily Dnevnik. However, Radical party officials reject accusations of being responsible for the nationalist incidents. The deputy president, Tomislav Nikolic, said the accusations had no basis in reality. "We would need only one hundred days in power to make all those who believe we are fascists change their minds," he said. "We would prove wrong all those who believe we only harass, abuse or persecute people. We would prove wrong those who think we cannot form a democratic government." As for the victims of the assaults, they seem determined to ride out the latest wave of hostility. Antun Merkovic, a Croat from Tavankuta, said previous attempts at intimidation had failed to drive Croats from their homes. "Regardless of what the Radicals say, all of us are staying here," he said. He even ventured a black joke about his community's plight. After winning the elections, he said, Seselj sent sandwiches to all the ethnic minorities in Vojvodina. He gave one each to the Croats and Hungarians but two to all the Slovaks. Asked why he had sent more to the Slovaks, Seselj answered, "They have to travel further." Jan Briza is a journalist with the Novi Sad daily Dnevnik. http://www.iwpr.net/index.pl?archive/bcr3/bcr3_2 [...]
Arben Qosja
Chicago
USA - Monday January 26, 2004 at 6:24 pm
Arben can you go and masturbate somewhere else?
- Monday January 26, 2004 at 7:24 pm
The U.S manipulation of the U.N. security council in its zeal to justify the NATO U.S. led aggression against Yugoslavia , invented a louzy imitation of a criminal court naming a fistful of corrupt and inept law "interpreters" ready to accept a script and perform to the best of their abilities the imperial agenda . But their arrogance didn't let them see what surprises they were going to find , first they subestimated Pres. Milosevic ability as a lawyer that took over his own defense , bacause of his "lack" of experience and assumed that to prove the charges was going to be a "two turn stake" WRONG , second , the evidence against him was conclusive , WRONG AGAIN the "Big door revolving on a small hinge" demolished such evidence . After that it was nothing but blind shooting in an elevator for the prosecution in which the only ones hurt were the ICTY , NATO , Clintonians and Blairians ; President Milosevic is standing high for all Serbs as the man that challenged the mightiest army known to mankind and came out of it proud and heroic , ready for history judgement history that will never forget this new infamy commited against Serbia and her people . And as far as I am concerned whatever comes after the completion of this "opera buffa" will be nothing but pure and shameless criminal impunity .
M P
Panama - Monday January 26, 2004 at 7:33 pm
To the previous Poster:You do not even have the courage to give your name, you must be very embarassed to write such a thing. You must be a Serb!
Arben Qosja
Chicago
USA - Monday January 26, 2004 at 7:53 pm
"AQUILA NON CAPIT MUSCAS"
M P
Panama - Monday January 26, 2004 at 7:54 pm
Arben can you go and masturbate somewhere else
Vaske Stojanovski
Macedonia - Monday January 26, 2004 at 8:12 pm
Wesley Clark Admits Targeting Civilians In Yugoslavia
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La - Monday January 26, 2004 at 8:46 pm
Spot your country on this map, outlining the Commanders' areas of responsibility - responsibility for what?
http://www.defenselink.mil/specials/unifiedcommand/
John North
Canada - Monday January 26, 2004 at 9:47 pm
JohnI believe the 'dropped' charges of genocide referes to Kosovo. No evidence of any genocide or attempt to commit genocide exists.
- Not even with Swaans criteria I suppose.That's why Bosnia indictment was added, to make up for that, so to speak.
Ann-Marie Laios
Sollentuna
Sweden