MILOSEVIC TRIAL DISCUSSION ARCHIVE

Is Slobodan Milosevic getting a fair trial?
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• discussion archive

• Tuesday January 27, 2004 at 2:39 am
  

  John

  Check the dates next to the original and amended indictments for the latest version as per ICTY site. Genocide was never included in Kosovo but was included in Croatia and Bosnia. Then it was quietly dropped from Croatia and remained in Bosnia, especially re Srebrenica. That's as far as I can make out from the labyrinth the OTP has drawn up around the indictments (probably to sow confusion and muddy the waters as much as posssible as their proof is so slim, yet the PR machine can still do its spin work).

  Everybody thinks Michael Moore is a hero because he slags on Bush and co. Stop for a minute and you'll note he's an apologist for Clinton and Clark, who were the same as Bush but just slicker in their PR. Then of course they had the mighty media behind them together with Arben's and his mates' narco dollars to boost their publicity. The same mates (all humanitarians and freedom fighters of course) are backing Clark again and they'll give it a good shake because the bucks will flow readily when the time comes.

  Arandjel, the question of Radosavljevic not being indicted at all is the key to the farce. On one hand the giver of orders is guilty but the executioner is not?

  If the proof is there, no realpolitik is necessary to ensure BOTH being nailed, so why the "sweetheart" deals? Or is it too risky to bring on Radosavljevic even as an OTP !WITNESS! in case the Racak fairy story gets blown to bits?

  The quality of witnesses this year shows the poor case against Milosevic, surely they should have been able to do better with all the big money they spent on bribes, witnesses and stories.

  The OTP is desperate to try and keep the lid on the case as much as possible lest they blow NATO's case to bits. And that would be even easier to do than it was for NATO to blow YU and its people and infrastructure and lives to bits! All in the name of the democracy and freedom they are trying so desperately to sell you.
  
  David
  Oztralia

• Tuesday January 27, 2004 at 2:45 am
  The Oz detective Manning is clearly a parrot. He "established some 2470 bodies existed in Srebrenica. The rest he was told were estimates by some professor who extrapolated the remaining 5000 victims. So what the f... are the OTP doing bringing the two bit detective to testify about what someone else told them. Where are these professors who so capably estimated and extrapolated the dead bodies. They all work in NATO like Jamie Shea and his stories of hundreds and thousands of military weapons being destroyed by NATO?

  The only conclusion one can draw is that not only is justice being redefined in the ICTY but so is plain and simple mathematics! A NWO version of mathematics is being born ladies and gentlemen.

  My mathematics says Slobo is way ahead, the OTP still has to score even a single hit this year.
  
  David
  Oztralia

• Tuesday January 27, 2004 at 2:49 am
  The number of dead, or people who have been killed, under NATO rule in Kosovo is pretty much close to the number allegedly killed during Milosevic's rule, <2000. Now that sounds like a goood cause for another NATO intervention, methinks. This time on the side of the victims.
  
  David
  Oztralia

• Tuesday January 27, 2004 at 3:41 am
  OTP is in the last phases of damage control, on the genocide point. Initially, they wanted to pull it off on Kosovo. Then they gave up on that (because it was so obviously pathetic), and attempted to do the same in Croatia (never did it officially), but then gave up. Finally, Carla pushed it through on Bosnia, with a megalithic notion of 'genocide against Bosnian Muslims and Croats.'

  Later, because the number of Croats killed was comparatively less than Muslims (and much less than the number of killed Serbs!), they dropped the Croats, and asserted that the Bosnian Muslims were victims of Milosevic-engineered genocide.

  As the monstrous case went forward, it became obvious that a blanket genocide charge was unrealistic, so the OTP decided to focus on just Srebrenica, perhaps because they were so 'successful' in the same endeavor when it came to Krstic.

  Now that no real evidence has been presented, they have decided to use the last 10 days of their case in calling expert witnesses like Zwann, who will redefine genocide such that all the other non-genocidal crimes perpetrated by the Bosnian Serb side in the conflict, including expulsion, persecution, massacres, detention, looting, torture, destruction of monuments, etc.--- become genocide.

  Make no mistake, a genocide conviction is crucial for the OTP and NATO. Once it is gotten, NATO and the 'international community' can screw the RS in Bosnia-Hercegovina, as a 'state built on genocide' (the prosecution said as much in their opening statement). Not only that, but if genocide was perpetrated in Bosnia, then NATO's intervention in Kosovo was also justified as a 'pre-emptive' attack to prevent a genocide of Kosovo Albanians. It also has great use as a leverage tool against the Serbs in general in the historical, economic, political, and indeed moral sense.
  
  P M
  USA

• Tuesday January 27, 2004 at 4:02 am
  And it will be used as a leverage tool against the other Slavs, namely Russians, when their turn comes for dismemberment and plunder in the way YU was dismembered and plundered. Just as soon as the NWO get the "nukular" umbrella up and running. Chechnya is just a trial scenario to keep the pot simmering until it suits them for a boilover.

  Then the "memories" of the Holocaust by the "Slav Serbs" will be revived by the Holocaust Propaganda Ministry, courtesy of the Liebermanns, Soroses, Lantoses, Eagleburgers, etc, etc. No doubt highlighting "a genocidal tendency" determined and established by International Law institutions such as the "UN's own" ICTY!

  Now that's legitimacy for you! Nothing personal but business is business, Moshe!
  
  David
  Oztralia

• Tuesday January 27, 2004 at 4:35 am
  A harbinger and primer... 'Colin Lectures Mikhail on Democracy and Human Rights... ' Sounds like a familiar strategy.
  
  David
  Oztralia

• Tuesday January 27, 2004 at 5:14 am
  From todays Pravda: Powell: first lies, now arrogance 01/27/2004 10:44 US Secretary of State full of preoccupations and demands Colin Powell has some cheek. He comes to Moscow and publishes a letter in an important daily newspaper (Izvestia) claiming that the USA is worried about the legal basis of democracy in the Russian Federation, about Russia's military bases in CIS countries and about Russia's policy in Chechnya. Here speaks the man who lied through his teeth to the United Nations Security Council, as he presented his detailed photographs of Saddam Hussein's factories of Weapons of Mass destruction and as he praised the "marvelous" intelligence which uncovered these programmes. Here speaks the man who represents a regime which carried out the most blatant and shocking disregard for international law by committing its troops to Iraq, outside the UNSC, which under each and every document concerning the management of the crisis called Iraq, had to be consulted. Here speaks a man whose government has sanctioned an act of butchery on an unprecedented scale in recent history, in which tens of thousands of innocent people have been murdered, left mutilated or destitute. Here speaks a man whose government ordered its military forces to attack civilian targets with such>Latest News Powell: first lies, now arrogance World Economic Forum: Clearing up after Bush The End of Freedom True talent cannot be silenced Defending the Undefendable savagery that today, nearly one year on, basic services are still not functioning. Here speaks a man whose government sent its armed forces into a war without a legitimate cause. Here speaks a man whose government disregarded the UNO and the UN Charter, deriding the organization as a League of Nations. Here speaks a man whose military forces broke the Geneva Convention time and again in Iraq. Here speaks a man whose government sent its armed forces into Afghanistan - in retaliation, which is not a legitimate causus belli - to slaughter 3 000 civilians. And this man - Colin Powell - has the audacity to present his preoccupations about Moscow's relations with its partners in the Commonwealth of Independent States? Colin Powell has the nerve to look Vladimir Putin in the eye and speak about Chechnya? Colin Powell has the barefaced cheek to publish a threatening letter in the Russian press as he is received as a guest? Apart from being a liar and apart from belonging to a government which is responsible for mass murder and war crimes, Colin Powell demonstrates an absence of good manners and an excess of arrogance, which seems to have rubbed off on him from his partners in crime.
  
  Mrya Antonov
  Russia

• Tuesday January 27, 2004 at 6:12 am
  As one "Puta" said to a Putin: Nothing personal Mikhi, but business is business.
  
  Colin Puta Powell
  

• Tuesday January 27, 2004 at 6:39 am
  
  Well said Mrya.

  But you forgot to mention Powell's comments during the Anglo/US attack on Serbia?
  
  Peter Taylor
  Herts/UK

• Tuesday January 27, 2004 at 6:43 am
  
  Some of Powell's comments may be read here:

  http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/ops/docs99/990517-kosovo35.htm
  
  Peter Taylor
  Herts/UK

• Tuesday January 27, 2004 at 7:12 am
  

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  Nikola Stankovic
  Yugoslavia

• Tuesday January 27, 2004 at 7:18 am
  

  Just goes to show what a Colon Powell is!

  The "business is business phrase" is copywrit so please don't plagiarise, folks!

  How's the form of the Belgian military analyst who works for the OTP? To prove Milosevic's "command and control" he cites a document forwarded by Perisic to Martic, at Milosevic's behest, in which Milosevic at Akashi's behest asks Martic to honour Martic's agreement with Akashi and allow Unprofor movement.

  It logically follows that it must have been Akashi who was actually in "command and control" calling the shots and Milosevic and Perisic were merely conveyors of Akashi's instructions.

  Can't possibly imagine how the OTP analyst could have missed such a straightforward analysis himself.

  Mark another one up for Slobo! OTP=Zero points this year. (And they're paying these suckers big bucks to come up with such incompetent nonsense? I want my UN, Nato and Soros membership fees back!)
  
  David
  Oztralia

• Tuesday January 27, 2004 at 8:30 am
  This is what all Serbs should consider very seriously -Ask Forgiveness for the mass shameful killings, ethnic cleansing and rape camps. The nation of the worst shame on this century: The Serbs! Follow the BBC article: Mr Babic, 47, is charged with war crimes and crimes against humanity in Croatia's Krajina region in the 1990s. He admitted persecution after plea-bargaining with prosecutors. Tribunal judges are said to be considering whether to accept the plea, which would mean four other war crimes charges would have to be dropped. Mr Babic showed some remorse in a statement to the tribunal on Tuesday. "I come before this tribunal with a deep sense of shame and remorse. I have allowed myself to take part in the worst kind of persecution of people simply because they were Croats and not Serbs," he said. I ask my brother Croats to forgive us, their brother Serbs Milan Babic The charges relate to a Serb revolt in Krajina against Croatian independence, between 1991 and 1992. Mr Babic was briefly president of the Republic of Serb Krajina. He was an ally of former Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic, who is himself on trial for alleged war crimes. The indictment said that the Serbs aimed to remove most of the Croat and other non-Serb population from one third of Croatia's territory. In one of the incidents, prosecutors say Serb forces killed 56 civilians near the village of Bacin. Evictions Mr Babic said his regret was "the pain I have to live the rest of my life". "I ask my brother Croats to forgive us, their brother Serbs," he said. He also appealed to other Serbs to acknowledge the wrongs committed against their neighbours. As part of the plea-bargaining, Mr Babic signed a confession in which he admitted he was aware of the forced eviction and persecution of Croats; he helped spread pro-Serb propaganda; and that he helped distribute weapons among the Serb population. More than 78,000 Croats and about 2,000 Muslims lived in the town of Krajina in 1991. According to the indictment against Mr Babic, almost all the non-Serb population "was forcibly removed, deported or killed" within a year. Mr Babic said he knew non-Serb civilians were dying in the war but did not know about the deliberate murder of hundreds of people, and had no knowledge of crimes while they were being committed. He pleaded guilty to persecution on political, racial and religious grounds, as a crime against humanity. He faces a maximum life imprisonment, but the prosecution is expected to recommend a lesser sentence.
  
  Rita Weinberg
  Italy

• Tuesday January 27, 2004 at 8:35 am
  

  Powell Reassures Moscow on Military Plans
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Shangri-La

• Tuesday January 27, 2004 at 8:47 am
  To: Ana Dakic Yes I came back just today. I am sorry you kind of have the tendency to judge by mistake in most of the things you comment on. I am not a pilot neither I bombed Belgrade. Although, I consider it to be a very taugh way of intervention, I also consider it was neccessary to stop the mass killings performed by Serb military, paramilitary and police. Other than this I pitty you people that are not really in the same "timeframe" with the rest of the world. Wake up and face reality. A la salute...
  
  Rita Weinberg
  USA

• Tuesday January 27, 2004 at 8:54 am
  Same mass killings as performed in racak?

  http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/BIK401A.html

  No interest in Serb victims

  Finnish pathologist Helena Ranta said the work of the Hague tribunal regarding the so-called Racak massacre was incomprehensible. The former head of the forensic team the European Union sent to the Kosovo-Albanian village of Racak in January 1999 to investigate the events there, in a conversation with Berliner Zeitung, criticized the UN tribunal for not following up the evidence that there was heavy fighting between Serb soldiers and the Kosovo-Albanian fighters during the night of January 15-16, 1999 in the Racak-region. Western politicians used the tragedy in the village of Racak, where 40 Albanians died exactly 5 years ago, to prove to the public that the upcoming NATO attack on Yugoslavia was necessary. US diplomat William Walker played the leading role. The chief of the OSCE mission in Kosovo immediately accused the Serbs of having killed 45 unarmed Albanian civilians at close range in Racak. The Serbian side rejected this interpretation und spoke instead about KLA soldiers killed in battle.

  Pictures not published

  She knew, that at that time "KLA-fighters were buried around Racak," said Ranta. "At that time I received information that proved that several Serb soldiers had been killed as well. Unfortunately, we will never know the exact number of Serb soldiers that died that night." It would be appropriate "to ask the tribunal why they are not interested in that number." Ranta criticized the indictment against former Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic in the case of Racak for mostly following the Walker version. "When Ambassador Walker said that there was a massacre at Racak, this statement had no legal value. I declared at that time that the OSCE-observers forgot to take all steps necessary to secure a crime scene: isolating the area, refusing admission to all unauthorized persons and colletinig all material evidence. Ranta demanded that in addition to the OSCE pictures the tribunal also use the pictures taken by two additional photographers, shot several hours prior to the arrival of OCSE-observers. The pictures show "that at least one of the bodies was moved afterwards â?" that body is not seen on OSCE-pictures."

  Left in the lurch

  In the days prior to the NATO-attack on Yugoslavia it was clear "that a bunch of governments were interested in a version of Racak that blamed only the Serb side," said Ranta. "But I could not provide this version." Her instructions came from the German diplomat Pauls. The representative of the then-German EU-presidency asked for a written statement. "Afterwards, I had to show these personal statements to William Walker, who was obviously not amused when he read it." Still, she agreed to take part in the important press conference on March 17, 1999. "At that (conference), I was sitting with the German ambassador to Belgrade, Gruber, and a Finnish diplomat on the podium. I hoped that those gentlemen would support me." But that was not the case. "I rather had the feeling that I was left in the lurch," said Ranta. As a result of the Walker dominated press-conference most of the media accepted the version of a Serb massacre of Albanian civilians as proven. A few days later the NATO air attacks on Yugoslavia began. (Translated from German by C. Schuetz & J.Catalinotto)
  
  Dakic Ana
  Serbia

• Tuesday January 27, 2004 at 9:33 am
  Russian foreign minister says Washington behind ouster of Georgian president Russian Foreign Minister Igor Ivanov and U.S. Secretary of Sate Colin Powell meet Thursday in Burssels. (AP) MOSCOW (AP) - Russia's foreign minister has accused the United States of playing a role in the ouster of Georgian President Eduard Shevardnadze last month in an interview published Saturday in the Komsomolskaya Pravda newspaper. "I think there are enough facts proving that what happened in those days wasn't spontaneous, it didn't arise suddenly," Foreign Minister Igor Ivanov was quoted saying. "Of course, there were preparations and the U.S. ambassador was involved, as Shevardnadze himself admitted." Ivanov also said a fund set up by billionaire George Soros played a role. Shevardnadze earlier accused Soros of funding the opposition and he noted U.S. Ambassador to Georgia Richard Miles was posted in Yugoslavia before the overthrow of President Slobodan Milosevic. Shevardnadze said Miles might have encouraged Georgia's opposition. Senior Washington officials have denied any U.S. conspiracy to depose Shevardnadze. Ivanov noted in the interview the White House also dispatched former U.S. secretary of state James Baker to Georgia ahead of the country's Nov. 2 parliamentary election. Baker, who knew Shevardnadze well, pushed the Georgian leader to ensure the vote was free and fair. The protests that led to Shevardnadze's Nov. 23 resignation erupted amid widespread allegations the elections had been rigged. "I don't have any information or documents about what the aim of their mission was," Ivanov was quoted saying. "But today it has become obvious that one of their goals was to convince Shevardnadze to resign his seat." Ivanov flew to Georgia as the crisis escalated and shuttled between the opposition and Shevardnadze in an attempt to prevent bloodshed. He was in the capital Tbilisi when Shevardnadze resigned. Meanwhile, Russian President Vladimir Putin spoke Saturday with Georgia's interim president Nino Burdzhanadze. The Kremlin said Putin noted "both countries need a genuine, friendly relationship." Both the United States and Russia have jockeyed for influence in Georgia, which sits astride a proposed pipeline intended to carry oil from Azerbaijan to Turkey and western markets. U.S. Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld went to Georgia on Friday, a trip that seemed intended as much as a signal to Russia as an assertion of U.S. support for Georgia. The U.S. administration is worried Russia is moving more aggressively to reassert its influence in the Caucasus region. Rumsfeld urged Russia to withdraw its troops from Georgia as it promised to do in a 1999 deal, known as the Istanbul Accords. Ivanov, however, was quoted by Russia's Interfax news agency saying Russia had agreed to conduct talks about the bases and it is meeting that promise. "As a professional diplomat, I recommend everyone read the documents, preferably in the original," Ivanov was quoted saying. The Russian government has said it needs a decade or more for complete withdrawal of its troops
  
  Mrya Antonov
  Rossija

• Tuesday January 27, 2004 at 9:57 am
  Weinberg? sounds German to me , Serbs won the "centennial" shame award , !wow¡ finally they beat the U.S , U.K , Germany the late USSR , Croatia , South Africa , Uganda , Congo , to name a few , what an honor , were you Rita part of the jury along with Madeleine , Jaimie , James , Wesley , Tony , Bill , Javier , Jacques , and few more that escape from my memory?
  
  M P
  Panama

• Tuesday January 27, 2004 at 10:11 am
  "Rita" is just another version of "Arben" perverted ignorants and provocateurs
  
  Martin B
  Ven
  Sweden

• Tuesday January 27, 2004 at 10:20 am
  “As part of the plea-bargaining, Mr Babic signed a confession in which he admitted he was aware of the forced eviction and persecution of Croats; he helped spread pro-Serb propaganda; and that he helped distribute weapons among the Serb population. More than 78,000 Croats and about 2,000 Muslims lived in the town of Krajina in 1991. According to the indictment against Mr Babic, almost all the non-Serb population "was forcibly removed, deported or killed" within a year. Mr Babic said he knew non-Serb civilians were dying in the war but did not know about the deliberate murder of hundreds of people, and had no knowledge of crimes while they were being committed.”

  How does he know for crimes now as prisoner, and did not know as president then?

  If he had not known for these crimes then, where is his responsibility as president of Krajina?

  Of course, Rita, he was guilty; he acted alone, against Krajina Assembly, against Vance-Owen plan, against Z-4 plan, against suggestions from other Krajina and Serbian leadership, but in agreement with NOTBRIGHT.

  “As part of the plea-bargaining, Mr Babic signed a confession in which he admitted he was aware of the forced eviction and persecution of Croats; he helped spread pro-Serb propaganda; and that he helped distribute weapons among the Serb population. More than 78,000 Croats and about 2,000 Muslims lived in the town of Krajina in 1991. According to the indictment against Mr Babic, almost all the non-Serb population "was forcibly removed, deported or killed" within a year.”

  I do not agree with any of the expulsion; aside of that, the indictment shows one-sided story - That expulsion happened after or as a response to the expulsion and killings of Serbs on the much larger scale. The indictment regarding Muslim population in Krajina is completely false since Fikret Abdic and his forces sided with Krajina Serbs and against Croats and Alija Isetbegovic forces, Muslim population during the war very often found shelters in Krajina, if they suffered it was because from Croatian and Alija’s forces.

  Most of the Croatian refugees (out of total 78000 which lived there) came from Vukovar and Slunj in November 1991, however these happen to be battle zones.

  To mention just a few examples of Serbian population who was forced to leave by Croatian Authorities, from non-battle zones in the Summer of 1991 (4-5 months before Vukovar and Slunj):
  Out of 34000 Serbs in Osijek 32000 were forced to leave by September 1991. Almost entire Serbian population from West Slavonija (Virovitica, Grubisino Polje, Pakrac etc around 60 000 people)
  Over 30000 Serbs from Sisak,
  All surrounding villages around Nova Gradiska and towards Okucani. (Forces of Dragutin Mercep killed everything what stayed behind
  Over 20 000 Serbs from Karlovac and so on and so on.
  
  Pero Peric
  Canada

• Tuesday January 27, 2004 at 10:41 am
  

  To Mrya Antonov:

  Oil intrigue and US Realpolitik heighten tensions in the Caucasus

  Georgia’s “rose revolution”: a made-in-America coup

  >link
  
  Nikola Stankovic
  Yugoslavia

• Tuesday January 27, 2004 at 10:53 am
  Noticed that Cohen claims that the vast majority of Partizans were Croats, yet Zwann calls the cleaning up of the Ustase after 1945 genocidal in nature. If this were so, it would mean that the overwhelmingly Croat Partizans, were by far the most responsible for carrying out 'genocidal acts' against the Croat Ustase...So why is Zwann even there if the Croat lobby and ICTY can't even agree? Duh!
  
  
  

• Tuesday January 27, 2004 at 11:07 am
  I think that Slobodan is a pig. I believe that he should be slaughted like the animal that he is. Who kills people just for pure amusment?!?! He is digusting. I hope what they say is true...WHAT GOES AROUND COMES AROUND.
  
  Me Me
  ME
  ME

• Tuesday January 27, 2004 at 11:20 am
  "He is digusting(sic). I hope what they say is true" Means you have no clue of what is this all about and you were craving for a piece of tail which obviously you never got , solution : call A.Q.
  
  M P
  Panama

• Tuesday January 27, 2004 at 11:29 am
  "What Goes Around Comes Around" = your magic roundabout.
  
  
  

• Tuesday January 27, 2004 at 11:31 am
  AND IT SHALL COME TO YOU. TO QUOTE ARBEN "You do not even have the courage to give your name, you must be very embarassed to write such a thing. You must be a ALBANIAN!"
  
  Vaske Stojanovski
  Macedonia

• Tuesday January 27, 2004 at 11:43 am
  
  Rita Weinberg states:

  “I also consider it was necessary” (the bombing of Serbia) “to stop the mass killings performed by Serb military, paramilitary and police. Other than this I pitty you people that are not really in the same "timeframe" with the rest of the world. Wake up and face reality. A la salute...”

  So let us examine this “reality” you want ‘us people’ to face.

  Some data on your “reality” of “mass” killings in Kosovo: The “reality” according to the ICTY indictment is that the High Command in Serbia is charged with some 370 killings in Kosovo. See Schedule A of the indictment. Nato killed more than this in five raids alone on Kosovo plus many hundreds more in Serbia. Not to mention the 3,000 or so murders committed by the KLA. I recognise that it is a waste of time referring you to the sources for this information that are given in the archives but your ignorance does not obliterate the facts or the ability of others with open minds to consider them. So much for your “reality” statements on “mass killings”.

  On the wider matter of principle I observe that your principles are of the elastic variety: if that is not a contradiction in terms. You support the violent insurgency of Albanian Islamists in Kosovo to enable them to seize a piece of sovereign territory by force. But you condemn the violent insurgency of Palestinians in attempting to remove an occupier from its territory. Perhaps you might like to entertain us with your “reality” thoughts on the “mass killings” of Palestinians and who of ‘necessity’ should be bombed in order to stop these?

  I can’t wait to read your next mixture of faction and insults which so adorn this discussion.
  
  Peter Taylor
  Herts/UK

• Tuesday January 27, 2004 at 12:46 pm
  Mr. Peter Taylor,

  I hope you do not fall again into this trap. Rita Weinberg is some fictitious name. Most likely Arben and “she” are the same person. He or she just post to cause a provocation. The name Weinberg was used just to sound Jewish so as to provoke some possible pro-Palestinian comments.

  Some time before it was a “woman, US pilot flying pregnant and bombing Serbs in Kosovo”. It is a clear indication that the opposition side has no arguments and no intellectual power to argue on this Forum.

  My strategy is best to completely ignore them. Perhaps in time they may produce an opponent worthy a discussion. At the moment what they post is junk.
  
  D. Jovanovic, physicist
  USA

• Tuesday January 27, 2004 at 1:11 pm
  

  “Follow the BBC article: Mr Babic, 47, is charged with war crimes and crimes against humanity in Croatia's Krajina region in the 1990s. He admitted persecution after plea-bargaining with prosecutors. Tribunal judges are said to be considering whether to accept the plea, which would mean four other war crimes charges would have to be dropped..”

  The above statement is topical description of how so called plea bargaining works at the ICTY. A person is accused of all the possible charges that prosecution can imagine and will use to ensure that the person will spent rest of his/her life in jail. The person knows that the ICTY will convict for sure any one who is accused of crimes based on the command responsibility. The most effective tools of the prosecution are witnesses that lie and whose statements are never independently confirmed or verified and whose statements are preferable here say. Many people are just cowards. To avoid going to jail for life they will admit anything. (Just remember Galileo. He admitted that he lied when he claimed that the earth revolves around the sun.) The best example of this kind of plea bargaining in the ICTY is admition of captain Nikolic that he has ordered massacre of Muslims in Kravica and overlooked execution of his order personally. Additionally he accused two of his colleges of helping him. As it turns out he never made an order for the massacre at Kravica, he was never in Kravica and his fellow officers were never in Kravica. The question is why would one lie instead to admit what he really did? As it turns out one has to pleas prosecution not to tell the truth and that he would be guaranteed a good plea bargain.

  In case of Mr. Babic we see that four charges would be dropped provided that he admits lesser charges i.e. to place blame on his own people. He would have admitted even more if he was promised that after conviction he can walk free.

  The same plea bargain is granted to all Croatian, Bosnian and Albanian leaders and their people, but it is working the opposite way. They are granted that they will not be accused of any crimes provided that they throw as much dirt against the Serbs as they can invent in order for the NATO expansion into the Balkans and into the rest of the world to be justified.

  Justice makes sense only if all the war criminals of all the nations are equally judged and convicted for the same crimes in the same court of law, that has independent prosecution, court and appeals court above it and if all these institutions are independently financed by neutral sources.

  Think about it. If somebody has committed a genocide how this charge can be ever dropped against such a person and how such a horrendous crime can not be proved in the court of law. Such a crime would have left so much evidence that it would be a breeze to prove it in any court of law.

  .

  By the way, where is town of Kraina? I have never heard about it.”

  
  
  Pera Bora
  Ottawa
  Canada

• Tuesday January 27, 2004 at 1:18 pm
  
  Mr D Jovanovic: I did not, repeat not, make the assumption that the person posting here as Rita Weinberg is Jewish. I am unlikely to have made such a mistake as I have an acquaintance, a Mrs Goldberg, who is constantly reminding me that she is not Jewish.

  Please read my post with care. Also I did not, repeat not, make any pro-Palestinian terrorist comment. I know what I doing and your false interpretation of my words is not helping.
  I have read abusive comments from this 'Rita' person on another site for years. I have good reason to believe she is a Croat.
  
  Peter Taylor
  Herts/UK

• Tuesday January 27, 2004 at 1:35 pm
  This time Ana is silent; finally she knows she made bad judgements.
  
  Rita 123
  XX

• Tuesday January 27, 2004 at 1:37 pm
  Peter Taylor and Dr. Jovanovic: impersonating Jews on a forum such as this, or on any political forum, for that matter, has two uses:

  It gives false moral authority, much more so than if the poster actually presented herself as a Croat, Albanian, German, etc.

  It also is occasionally used to stoke anti-Semitic sentiment amongst the Serbs and supporters of the truth, as it paints all Jews into the corner of having supported what was done by the USA and Europe in the Balkans in the 1990s.

  We must resist the temptation, and ultimately must see every poster as merely a person, and not a representative of an entire race, people, religion, etc. Only then will the 'Jewish' Rita (yeah right!) and the 'Jewish' Arben (yeah right!) lose.
  
  P M
  USA

• Tuesday January 27, 2004 at 1:40 pm
  Moderator: please remove these trolls Rita and Arben. Arben is actually a character called ilir_dardani from the NYTimes Russia and Eastern Europe forum, and he does nothing but lies and spam. Rita's lies are obvious to us all. Pregnant U.S. bomber/Italian Jew all wrapped in one.

  Btw, dillyrian, your claims to have a 'Jewish' grandfather are pure bunk. You never claimed that on the NYT forum. Nice try.
  
  P M
  USA

• Tuesday January 27, 2004 at 1:51 pm
  To the participants:

  I am keeping my promise. I am just posting facts. No engagement in low level discussions with provocateurs. I would prefer if Vera Martinovic would use that space:) Please do the same since we know we are right an they are wrong. Key words: Helena Ranta, Racak and Rjamonda.
  
  Dakic Ana
  Serbia

• Tuesday January 27, 2004 at 1:52 pm
  Im just a proud non-jewish drugdealing albanian celebrator of the Chinese "year of the monkey" wish me luck!
  
  Rita Muslimovic
  Ougadogou
  upper volta

• Tuesday January 27, 2004 at 2:05 pm
  David they have no proof that Mr. Milosevic had a command responsibility in Krajina and Bosnia. His relationship with the leaders there were not at best during the war. He even slammed sanctions against Bosnia and Krajina to make them follow orders from the so called International Community. As you are pointing out it may be argued that Mr. Milosevic was under Command of the so called International Community or at list their most influential port parole. In order to be given a position of main negotiator in Dayton he had to negotiate this with Bosnian Serbs. To accomplish this he include head of the Serbian Orthodox church as a kind of guarantor to the Bosnian Serbs, that Mr. Milosevic will do an honest job for them.
  
  Pera Bora
  Ottawa
  Canada

• Tuesday January 27, 2004 at 2:12 pm
  To Ana:

  Unlike you I am posting only facts.
  
  Me Me
  US

• Tuesday January 27, 2004 at 2:19 pm
  Fact nr1: It was NOT AGRf (Albanian gay retard foundation for drugdealers) that started the war, we just supported it!
  
  Me Me
  US

• Tuesday January 27, 2004 at 2:22 pm
  Mr. Peter Taylor,

  I apologize. I was not implying that you were making any pro Palestinian comments. I was just warning others that this is a ploy.

  Yes, I agree with you. Mrs. Weinberg is some Croat under that name.
  
  D. Jovanovic,physicist
  USA

• Tuesday January 27, 2004 at 3:06 pm
  http://www.osce.org/documents/mik/1999/11/1117_en.pdf

  In urban Pristina, while the reported number of human rights violations (murder, assault and battery, forced eviction, etc.) has steadily declined in the last few months, the recent murders of two Serbs illustrate the fragile situation. The decline in the frequency of incidents would appear to be directly related to the decreasing numbers of minorities present in the urban areas. Within the urban centre, it is estimated that only 400 to 600 Serbs remain. They do not enjoy any secure freedom of movement, and the majority of them are now isolated, housebound, and dependent upon humanitarian aid for food, hygienic items, and medical care. Many families remaining in Pristina are reportedly exploring ways to sell their property and find accommodation in Serbia, in order to ultimately leave as well. 7. There is only a scattering of Roma still left in the outskirts of Pristina town, and movements beyond their enclave are restricted. Even those gypsy populations who use Albanian language (Ashkalija) face intimidation and harassment in public places, which has effectively denied them access to markets, public transport and health facilities. Roma/Ashkalija children in the urban centres currently have no access to education. 3 8. Another significant minority population in urban Pristina, the Slavic Muslims, continue to face risks from speaking their native language (Serbo-Croatian) in public.6 Slavic Muslims have reported difficulties in such routine activities as shopping, and currently have access to neither employment (except with international organisations) nor education. (Many of their youth express a desire to leave Kosovo in order to complete their studies.) While there have not yet been significant movements of Slavic Muslim populations out of the Pristina area, it should be noted that their continued exclusion from mainstream society may leave many with no choice but to pursue a future outside of Kosovo.
  
  
  

• Tuesday January 27, 2004 at 3:08 pm
  http://www.osce.org/kosovo/documents/reports/minorities/min_rep_02_eng.pdf

  The numbers of Serbs in Pristina city has continued to drop from the 5,000 thought to reside there at the time of the preliminary assessment to between 1,000- 2,000 persons. (The 1998 population was estimated by UNHCR at around 20,000.) Many of those remaining are elderly and infirm. The population is mostly found in the centre and the south of the city in the areas of Dardania (about 170 families), Ulpijana and, to a lesser extent, Sunny Hill. Those in the north of the city (approximately 115 persons) are far more isolated. At the beginning of August 1999 the situation of this vulnerable community seemed to deteriorate significantly with a rise in violent incidents and a general risk of intimidation and harassment. Unfortunately, the brutal killing on 15 August 1999 of a 78-year old Serb in her home was not an isolated incident. A pattern has arisen of Serbs being forced to sign over rights to their property in standard contracts before fleeing. In many cases Albanians have moved in within minutes of the departure. KFOR has registered persons at risk in its patrols, set up emergency telephone lines, reinforced doors to homes, lain in waiting for attackers and in some cases provided 24-hour guard. It would seem that such strategies have met with some success as the number of serious incidents reported to KFOR has fallen since mid- August 1999. This may also be connected to a diminishing Serb population unwilling to wait until they are physically attacked.
  
  
  

• Tuesday January 27, 2004 at 3:14 pm
  Ana, could you put your name.
  
  . .
  .

• Tuesday January 27, 2004 at 3:19 pm
  Sorry it’s not me that posted those above, but I do approve them. But if you want me to I would be glad to do so.
  
  Dakic Ana
  Serbia

• Tuesday January 27, 2004 at 3:40 pm
  BTW Interesting Interview

  http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/01/26/1632224
  
  Dakic Ana
  Serbia

• Tuesday January 27, 2004 at 4:22 pm
  Peter Taylor: Having been to the optician (on your kind advice!) I would still question (your claim, January 26, 2004 at 10:04 am) that: "The ICTY...indicted Milosevic SPECIFICALLY with ordering this ‘massacre’ (at Racak)".

  It seems to me, that with your line of interpretation (January 26, 2004 at 2:11 pm) one might equally well 'argue' that "The ICTY...indicted Milosevic with COMMITTING this ‘massacre’"...

  However, - (even) the ICTY (wisely)did not do that!
  
  Godfred Louis-Jensen
  Copenhagen
  D E N M A R K

• Tuesday January 27, 2004 at 5:42 pm
  Mr./Ms P M

  I see that courage is not your strong suit. Per chance, are you a Serb. Would you kindly state your name for all of us to see. I realize that some of you on this site are uptight to state your names because the UCK/KLA are having their convention/fund raiser in Mansfield, Ohio.

  BTW,those three long posts that I put on this board yesterday were sent to me from a friend. I merely passed them on to this forum, since they are quite relevant to the conviction of Milosevic.
  
  Arben Qosja
  Chicago
  USA

• Tuesday January 27, 2004 at 5:53 pm
  "I realize that some of you on this site are uptight to state your names because the UCK/KLA are having their convention/fund raiser in Mansfield, Ohio"

  Is that a warning? Are you saying we should be afraid? If so, for your information we, at least, I AM CHILD OF SOLUNAC (dete solunaca) and I AM NOT.
  
  Dakic Ana
  Serbia

• Tuesday January 27, 2004 at 5:55 pm
  PS It is good of you that you let us know regarding UCK fund raising, I am SURE FBI would like to check it out.
  
  Dakic Ana
  Serbia

• Tuesday January 27, 2004 at 6:08 pm
  http://www.slobodan-milosevic.org/news/smorg012204.htm

  January 22, 2004. A most interesting day at the Hague.
  
  Andy Wilcoxson
  Washington, United States

• Tuesday January 27, 2004 at 6:34 pm
  

  ..."Sarinic also admitted that the United States, and in particular the Clinton Administration, gave Croatia the green light to carry out Operation Storm, and that it was the Americans who called off the operation when it began heading towards Banja Luka"...

  No doubt yet ANOTHER joint criminal enterprise under the command and control of Slobodan Milosevic!

  Are you noting this down Carla and "Mr" May? Why haven't you indicted Slobo for that too or was that a "legitimate military operation"?

  No proof of NATO members' crimes, eh? LOL

  Coming from one of the chief Croat/US operatives and policy makers, maybe a "cover up" investigation might be warranted at least!
  
  David
  Oztralia

• Wednesday January 28, 2004 at 2:30 am
  Milosevic: Bora Mikelic was nominated to negotiated with you for Krajina, and you were the Croatian representative who talked to him. You discussed normalization, and I strove for a normalization in relations and wanted you to negotiate, and then the other questions that were discussed were the motorway, the oil pipeline, repairs to the railroad, motorways, etc. Isn't that so Mr. Sarinic?

  Sarinic: Yes that is right.

  Milosevic: It is true, then, that I was naive enough to believe that an incident had actually occurred, at the time. However, from the stenogram that I received from the opposite side, while spending my time here, we can see quite clearly that it wasn't the case of an incident, but intentions prepared in advance on the part of the leadership of Croatia.

  Sarinic: Well that's your own tendencious interpretation. What I can tell you is this, I can give you a fact, and I'm sure you'll remember this very well. What happened was this: there was an incident that broke out one evening in a coffee bar on the motorway, somebody had a fight, a Croat entered into a brawl with a Serb, and on the occasion, I think that seven Croats were killed over there. So I had an information from our services about that, then you talked to Boro Mikelic, and you said 'Well, have you spoken to Sarinic?' and he said 'Yes I have.' 'Well, they were very cultivated in their response and their conduct, whereas our men, our people, they should all be arrested, they were terrible.' So what more do you want? What other incident do you need?

  Milosevic: It is true from what say--- the only thing that is true, is that I believed that it was indeed an incident, and that I endeavored to bring things back to normal, and here is your report on the conversation you're referring to: it says, a report-- Milosevic-Mikelic-- this is 02909453-- 453 are the last digits, where he tells me what's going on. And I say to him, that a formula should be proposed for everybody to be released, because some Croats had been arrested, that those who fired will be arrested, you should say that, you have no other way. But for both sides-- then there are dots here-- and then I say to him: 'All Croats are not responsible for somebody being a murdered, and not all Serbs are responsible for that idiot going out and shooting at the highway. We shoot people for killing other people out of revenge. Furthermore, you don't go around the highway killing people because your brother has been killed, he must be an idiot, an unbelievable idiot.'

  Sarinic: Go on and read what Bora Mikelic says.

  May: --time.

  Milosevic: No, there's no problem. You have to arrest those people, there's no other way. Let those men go, that you have detained, and all those who have opened fire, they should arrest their men who did it, and that's it. Let things be normalized, so what we are suggesting, that they should arrest their men, you should arrest yours, they should hand over your men to you, and you will take the culprits to court. In other words, I am endeavoring to normalize things.

  May: --out of time.

  Sarinic: Would you please read Bora Mikelic's response, in that same document.

  Milosevic: I will try to do that, Mr. Sarinic. Because, I wish to draw your attention to this, Mr. May, Mr. Robinson, and Mr. Kwon, that I received the transcript of this conversation in at least three different versions, which only adds to my suspicion that there are certain corrections made, because from the transcript that I am reading from, I have nothing more to read about Bora Mikelic, but there's another transcript--

  May: ---matters should be dealt with fairly. Mr. Nice, again, perhaps you would check this. It seems strange that three separte copies be handed to him. That's what he says at the moment, that doesn't sound at all satisfactory. But-- no need to stop for that at the moment --but there is another part that the witness wishes to deal with. And you will have the opportunity to deal with that, so perhaps you note that so he has the chance.

  Milosevic: This transcript, that I quoted from a moment ago, has 02294543, and this transcript, relating to the same talk, 03416240, I can't find the third version now, but it's more or less the same thing. Mikelic says to me: 'President, last night around 2100 hours, and what happened, then they killed three of their citizens, six were wounded, twelve were lightly wounded, they've taken things to Okucani. The highway at 12 until 4 o'clock-- the highway was in communication-- I don't understand this-- then they came over the flyover, they were burning fires there, and then this happened. Now, whether they will detain some of our own, who had set off from Belgrade in a vehicle, not knowing what was happening on the highway, because the highway was open and people were traveling, I don't know that for the moment; I will be away for an hour-- I'll call you.' Then I asked him 'Can you contact Sarinic?' Mikelic: 'I have already spoken to Sarinic, because I was the first to inform him last night. After that, this morning, I spoke to their minister of internal affairs, and after that, I will speak to Sarinic in the next 10 minutes or so. As far as they are concerned, they arrested this man of course, they say they will take him to court, but they didn't retaliate in any other way; they behaved in a civilized manner. Whereas, amongst our people, you see what happens.' And then I say to him, 'But Perisic told me that they took measures over there, that all the citizens were now and then-- these are dots-- doesn't make sense--

  May: We, we cannot go on, we cannot go on in this way. It's impossible for anybody to remember anything realistic, and it's impossible for anyone to say anything, which is not fair on anybody. But we will allow the witness, if there's anything he wants to add to what's been said.

  Sarinic: Thank you, your honors. Namely, I remember that transcript, and I wanted Mr. Milosevic to read it through to the end, because there are two things that I wish to comment on. The first is, that Mr. Milosevic said that we started the Operation Flash without any provocation. And I wanted to add this provocation, this incident. And also, Bora Mikelic said that they behaved in a civilized manner, whereas our men behaved the way I've told you. That is one thing. And secondly, mention is made here of General Perisic, as far as I know, Mr. Perisic, in those days, was the Chief of Staff of the army of Serbia. What has he got to do with it, if the Serbian army was not involved there?

  Milosevic: He was just passing on information, and that's all, he was sitting in Belgrade, he received information from his channels, and then he forwarded that information to me, as to what was happening. Because, all of us were extremely irritated by any incidents occurring on the highway. Now we'll come back to what you're saying: that it had not been planned in advance, and I would say that that is evident to everyone. Because you have the meeting on the 30th of April. And let me mention, for your benefit, Mr. May, that pursuant to your request, I have provided the assistant of the opposing side, during the break, I have told her that I would be using this transcript, so they were able to get a hold of it. So, I would read a part of the discussion from this meeting, which preceded Flash and the ethnic cleansing of Western Slavonia, and I have a couple of questions about it. First of all, you have the 30th of April, 1995. It is page-- I'll leave out a part that I wanted to quote, but I'll reduce it to only a few essential portions, I have announced that I would use this transcript, though it is not my duty to do so, because it was provided through this witness, or maybe Mesic, I don't know-- It says, 'The President,' that means that Tudjman is speaking, it is page 01325696-- 'It has been agreed with the soldiers that the undertaking should start tomorrow at 5 A.M., that it should be finished within a few hours, not later than the end of the day. We have come to the conclusion that it would be a good idea for UNPROFOR to open the highway today. To open the highway, and then, not giving a few hours in advance to UNCRO-- giving them any information-- but rather for some incident to be provoked one hour prior to this. If the highway is open, then let two or three of our cars pass through, and let them be exposed to some sort of fire, so this would be an incident, one hour prior to the beginning. And you two should agree to that-- MUP probably-- MUP. Chervenko: We've agreed about that in the eastern sector. President: We agreed on the highway. If it were not to be opened, then in the eastern center, so that formally we should have-- dots-- it is very important that this should be accompanied by appropriate propaganda.'

  May: First of all, the witness should have the opportunity to deal with this part.

  Milosevic: I'm just quoting from the stenographic notes, Mr. May.

  Sarinic: First of all, I must observe that the accused is saying that this was part of an attack for the purpose of ethnic cleansing. I reject that absolutely, because there was no ethnic cleansing, it was an organized evacuation, organized by the Serb authorities. To corroborate that, I have provided this honorable tribunal with a tape and newspaper clippings, and with electronic media, every two hours we were calling on the Serbs to stay in their homes. However, things happened as they did. That is one point. The second is that I personally, in the morning, on the 1st of May, was instructed to inform General Crab, he's a Canadian who was there on behalf of UNPROFOR, to inform him and tell him that the Croatian army is about to cleanse Western Slavonia in order to restore Croatian control over it. So I don't understand, what country which was occupied, or rather, of which 30% of the territory would be occupied, would not accept that, and would fail to do anything about it. Once all peaceful attempts and negotiations failed. There's no country that would not engage in a military action to liberate its territory. For heaven's sake, I believe that that is the legitimate right of everyone. They were armed systematically, and there's hundreds of documents to prove that.

  Milosevic: Mr. Sarinic, I'm asking you about this meeting, so there's really no need for you to go on. I'm quoting from what you said on page 702: 'After you gave me instructions, Mr. President, I wanted to contact Mr. Akashi-- he's in Sarajevo-- it's not certain whether he will come this evening, probably tomorrow. Then I immediately contacted General Crab. And I spoke to him, I told him that we agreed that the highway should be opened, and he welcomed that. He said he would call me between 12- and 1300 hours, to tell me that he had been in touch with Mikelic.' So this is what you're referring to?

  Sarinic: Not quite. This is my second, or maybe the first, conversation with this general. The second was in the early morning at 5 o'clock, to tell him to remove his soldiers, because there would be a military campaign. But I'm once again underlining the legitimacy of that operation, because everyone is entitled to liberate a part of its territory that has been occupied.

  Milosevic: Very well, Mr. Sarinic. As I have to skip over things, let me find the passage. On page 711, the president says 'Listen, we'll see in the morning. If things went smoothly within a few hours, the MUP will do, but probably in the morning we will have to see the following.' Since the police came up against resistance, then armed military forces were sent there, local military forces, and then you act together. So, first you are preparing an incident, then you would say that police forces came up against resistance, and then the army was included. Isn't that so, Mr. Sarinic?

  Sarinic: Listen, you are simply formalizing things. It doesn't matter whether these were police forces or the army. Western Slavonia was occupied, and it is an integral part of the territory of Croatia, and therefore Croatia was entitled to use its forces to liberate its territory, and that's as simple as that.

  Milosevic: Mr. Sarinic, there was an agreement with UNPROFOR and with Mikelic, that you agreed with, for the highway to be opened. And now you're, now, planning an incident, for the army to intervene, and for everything under Operation Flash that occurred. On page 714, the president says--

  May: Let the witness answer if he wants to, if he wants to.

  Sarinic: I do, your honors, wish to answer, because these are flagrant untruths by the accused. This incident was-- didn't need to be provoked. I personally drove in a car with my bodyguards two days prior to this, along the highway. They wouldn't let me pass. There were soldiers of the so-called RSK there, they wouldn't let me pass. They used derogatory terms, in addressing me, etc., I don't want to repeat them. It is not true that the highway was open. Some people passed at their own risk, but I claim, formally, that the highway was not functioning, so no incident was necessary, because there were incidents every day, every hour. And on the other hand, now whether it was the MUP, the police forces, or the army, I think that is quite irrelevant.

  Milosevic: You are turning things upside down. I am saying that you rigged the incident to have an alibi for such an extensive operation. On page 714, the president says 'At six o'clock, once they start, the following should be done-- dash-- the Serb forces have again provoked an incident.' And I [Sarinic] told the ministers, 'Two or three cars should go there, and then let them shoot at them.' And then Susak says 'We'll do everything in our power.' The president says 'That means that the forces of law and order were going to establish control on the motorway.' Then Susak speaks 'Mr. President, the worst option would be for us to go with two cars, two vans, to leave them there, to riddle them with bullets, to film all this for television, if there's no other option.'

  Sarinic: Now as that is in the transcript, I cannot deny the authenticity of it. However, I should like to repeat that I am very astonished that any incident was needed, because it was quite legitimate to free part of the country that had been occupied.

  Milosevic: Now Jadnjak, was that the minister of the interior?

  Sarinic: Yes he was.

  Milosevic: He says, 'Mr. President, the provoking of this incident, let's agree upon this.' And Gojko was the defense minister of course. 'I am going to agree with the police CIS leadership, and they'll do what's necessary, and it would seem to be the real thing, that nobody will be able to doubt it.' President says, 'Now on the motorway, if the motorway does not work, then at the entrance.'

  Sarinic: Yes.

  Milosevic: Hrvoje Sarinic goes on to say, this is what you say, 'Mr. President, we oughtn't to be surprised by one thing, I think that all of them will insist upon it, even UNCRO, that the motorway be opened from 6 in the morning to 6 in the evening, we wanted to be opened all the time. If that is not sufficient, then the incident should be provoked outside.' So you say that this incident should be provoked. And the president says, 'At the entrance to it.' And Susak says, 'Mr. President, what Nikica is warning us of, we should like to tell him that we are in favor of having the motorway opened, the complete motorway opened, so we cannot be accused to not wanting to open it.' So you are discussing the incident.

  Sarinic: Yes, we're still discussing the incident, but let me say once again, that I don't want it to end there. And I repeat, the legitimacy of our defense there, to liberate the occupied territories. So, we did this on time, regardless of the incident, and, or rather, we informed UNCRO on time, and General Crab, that the Croatian forces were moving to liberate Western Slavonia.

  Milosevic: And this is what Jadnjak says, I haven't got time, I have to get through this quickly. He says, 'Two matters are concerned here. If they leave it open,' and he's referring to the motorway, 'we will cause an incident. If they don't open the motorway, then that will be the reason. The reason that it isn't opened means you will have ot intervene.' The president says, 'However, with an incident again.' To provoke an incident. And I said that Croatia, as we were not satisfied, etc., etc. He is encouraging the local Serbs at this point, etc. I'll skip over the next section, it's not an important passage. But he is encouraging the local Serbs to create, to provoke, an incident. And I also said that we were dissatisfied and are asking our friends the Americans that our agreement in Copenhagen, Washington, and that the United Nations is respected. And then Manulic says, 'I should like to receive maps to show me where that incident is happening.' You will receive information on that, and the government is going to meet for 45 minutes to have a brief report presented. So you are already preparing a statement for the incident that you are supposed to rig and stage there.

  Sarinic: I don't know what the accused means by what he's saying. Now, I'd like to focus on the important points. The incident is not the important point. We were the victims on our own territory, and I think that that was military tactics along those lines. However, the essential thing is something that the accused omitted to mention: there was no genocide, but what there was, was the legitimate desire to control and liberate the territory, which undoubtedly belonged to the Republic of Croatia.

  Milosevic: Mr. May, I should like-- these are stenographic notes, or rather the transcript of a recording of the meeting, in view of the shortness of time at my disposal, I can't quote from it as much as I'd like to, and from the quotations, you can clearly see that an incident was planned, as a pretext, an alibi, for the famous Operation Flash. And I would like to tender this transcript from the security council meeting held at the presidential palace on the 30th of April, 1995. I would like it to be exhibited and admitted into evidence.

  May: Yes, we'll exhibit that.

  Nice: Your honor, I think we have an English language version on that...under seal....blablabla . . .

  May: Have you handed the document in, Mr. Milosevic?

  Milosevic: Well I haven't handed it it, I would like to keep it because I was provided it by the opposite side, and you have the document. ERN 01325695 is the ERN number, on the title page, and it is dated the 30th of April, 1995. So it is an agreement to stage the incident in question, in order to go ahead with the Operation Flash. And the consequences of that well known: hundreds killed and tens of thousands expelled from the area.

  Sarinic: I have an objection to make, which I have repeated. And I would like it to be entered into the records. That, it was a legitimate operation on the part of the Croatian forces to liberate that part of the Croatian occupied territory. Now as to the hundreds of casualties, let me say, there were casualties on the Croatian side too, that was defending itself. But those casualties were trying to liberate and assume control of territories which without a doubt belong to the territory of the Republic of Croatia, which had been occupied by the Serbs living there. And they were the Trojan horse for Serbia's policies in the struggle for a Greater Serbia there.

  Milosevic: Mr. Sarinic, how can you say that, when I've just quoted your defense minister, who said, and let me just repeat one of his sentences, 'Mr. President, in the worst case, we would take two vehicles, two vans, leave them there, riddle them with bullets, film it for television, if we have no other choice, no other options.' And then you have an explanation as to how the government need not be informed until this actually happens, and that you yourself will inform them once the incident that you have planned actually takes place. You will then inform the government, subsequently, because only those three persons who were present knew about it, and of course nobody else knew about it, so neither did your citizens know anything about it, nor did your government. So, what we're dealing with here is not a military operation because someone had done some shooting somewhere, it is a military operation to take control of the motorway, which pursuant to an agreement between you and Mikelic, was supposed to be open to traffic normally. Are you challenging that, Mr. Sarinic?

  Sarinic: Yes, I am, I'm challenging it. Because the agreement between Mikelic and me never bore fruit. It bore a lot of paper, bulky paper. And afterwards, things were written in rifles, in shooting, and not written down in pen and ink. The motorway was never opened, and in his office, and in your own office, we spent hours discussing this problem. Anyway, Mr. Milosevic, I'm wondering why you're insisting on this so much, because you said your hands were clean, and that you never meddled in and of this, that you never interfered, that it was a problem between Knin and Zagreb. Isn't that what you said?

  Milosevic: Of course it was?

  Sarinic: Now, you're the advocate of Knin.

  Milosevic: I am an advocate of the truth, they were the victims of this trick, which had as a result the death of several hundred people and tens of thousands of people expelled. Therefore, of course I am an advocate of their rights. And we are talking about a trick that is so obvious that nobody can challenge it.

  Sarinic: It's not a trick, it was military tactics.

  Milosevic: Oh, I see, it was military tactics?

  Sarinic: Yes, absolutely.

  May: I'm stopping you, you must allow the witness to respond. You cannot interrupt. If he wants to add anything, he can do so, and I suggest we find some other point to move on to....

  Sarinic: Thank you, your honors. It would be better to move on to another topic, otherwise there will be more repetition.
  
  P M
  USA

• Wednesday January 28, 2004 at 3:02 am
  

  "May: I'm stopping you, you must allow the witness to respond. You cannot interrupt. If he wants to add anything, he can do so, and I suggest we find some other point to move on to."

  "May: Mr Milosevic, you will ask the questions we want you to ask or you will not ask any questions at all! Now move on to another point."

  Indeed! It seems Mr May would like to move on and on... No doubt he will move on to become a judge of the supreme court of England, like Arbour in Canada, for services rendered to the empire. Robertson moved on to become commander of Nato, Mark Laity of the BBC became the "Jamie Shea like spokesman" for Nato (even while he was at the BBC), Solana became spokesman for the EC and so on.

  There's no end to the fringe benefits of being an asshole.

  Therefore, it's no surprise to see so much bowel movement by May and his companions in Nato. That's one way of covering up the truth.

  Unfortunately, there will no doubt be even more repetition whether they like it or not.

  They lied about Afghanistan, they lied about Iraq and they lied about Kosovo and YU! So why are there so few questions about their lies in Kosovo?
  
  David
  Oztralia

• Wednesday January 28, 2004 at 3:20 am
  "CNN: U.N. tribunal prosecutors regard Babic as one of former Serbian and Yugoslav president Slobodan Milosevic's key allies during a campaign to expel non-Serbs from about a third of Croatian territory in the early 1990s."

  Hehehehe.... are these guys for real? A key ally? Methinks they've been watching the wrong conflict. How anyone but a corrupt idiot could make such a claim is extraordinary. Mindboggling!

  No wonder the OTP is losing so badly. They've got the wrong guy for the wrong things.

  Maybe they've confused all the names since they all sound the same and end in "...ic".
  
  David
  Oztralia

• Wednesday January 28, 2004 at 7:17 am
  
  Godfred: Being the one person here who demands 100% accuracy from contributors I cannot let you get away with your post above.

  The ICTY indictment of Milosevic specifies that: “By these actions” (See section 98 of the indictment giving details of the alleged murders at Racak) “Slobodan MILOSEVIC … planned, instigated, ordered, committed or otherwise aided and abetted the planning, preparation or execution of:”

  Deportation, murder, persecution. A list of names of those allegedly murdered at Racak follows immediately in Schedule A.

  So you see that - absurd as it may be - Milosevic is charged among other things with both ordering and committing the murder of inhabitants at Racak on 15 January 1999.

  There is little point in this discussion if we do not know specifically what Milosevic is charged with.

  If you are still unsure of the meaning of the word ‘specifically’ you may look it up in this Thesaurus. My own selection of the synonyms given would be ‘in detail’ but there are other words of equivalent meaning.
  
  Peter Taylor
  Herts/UK

• Wednesday January 28, 2004 at 8:34 am
  Peter, - thank you!

  In my (humble?) opinion we need to live with the fact, that "we do NOT know SPECIFICALLY what Milosevic is charged with," - even mrs. Carla del Ponte and her hench(wo)men clearly (if not specifically!) do not know either!

  We should not end up discussing mere semantics of course, should we? However notwithstanding your suggested Thesaurus I read the English word 'specifically" (as it was used in your posting!) as equivalent of the Danish word 'udtrykkelig', - which would probably be best covered by the expression 'strictly speaking'. That something is 'udtrykkeligt forbudt' means that it is not just 'strictly', but also 'clearly' (and thus specifically?) forbidden (in the sense that it has been spelled out). Hence:

  I read you as suggesting that "strictly speaking Milosevic is being charged with ORDERING" (not just "directing") the alleged massacre at Racak.

  And I disagree with you on that suggestion (which would have to be substantiated with reference to some (specific!, if you would excuse me) ORDER from the (then) President).

  To take it only a bit further, it seems to me that `strictly speaking´ mr. Milosevic is not being accused of anything 'specific', of nothing in particular, - and that is the problem of Carla del Ponte and her ICTY lot.

  I may be wrong, - but I do not think so! It seems to me, that ESSENTIALLY the ICTY charges that:

  In an effort "to secure Serbian control" mr. Milosevic (as an individual) was "participating in a joint criminal enterprise" with the purpose of expelling "a substantial portion" of the Kosovo Albanian population from the territory of the province (for this interpretation of the essence I would refer to the Kosovo Indictment, Clause 16).

  To be true that isn't terribly specific...

  PS: Whatever happened at the village of Racak on 15 January 1999 that incident - indeed declared a massacre by KVM head William Walker - was "used as a pretext for Nato’s war on Serbia" leading to the effective expulsion of Serbs from Kosovo":

  Towards the end of January 1999 NATO was demanding "that the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia authorities take immediate steps to ensure that those responsible for the (alleged Racak) massacre are brought to justice ( NATO STATEMENT)...(threatening that if these)...steps are not taken, NATO is ready to take whatever measures are necessary...(including)...air strikes against targets on FRY territory ( NATO STATEMENT).

  Is that true or not?
  
  Godfred Louis-Jensen
  Copenhagen
  D E N M A R K

• Wednesday January 28, 2004 at 8:42 am
  Peter Taylor! Excuse me, but:

  Otherwise `sans comparison´ I certainly would suggest that U.S. President George W. Bush SPECIFICALLY (Danish: Udtrykkeligt) ordered the murder of President Saddam Hussein! Although apparently unsuccessful the ensuing 'Decapitation Attack' - by which the U.S. President initiated the Coalition's war on Iraq - was an effort on part of the U.S. Military to carry out his order ( DECAPITATION ATTACK).
  
  Godfred Louis-Jensen
  Copenhagen
  D E N M A R K

• Wednesday January 28, 2004 at 8:56 am
  
  Godfred: Why, if as you insist Milosevic is not charged specifically with ordering and committing the murderers at Racak listed in Schedule A for the indictment, was Buja brought to the court to testify that he was?
  
  Peter Taylor
  Herts/UK

• Wednesday January 28, 2004 at 9:33 am
  Peter Taylor: How can I (or anyone?) explain the conduct of the ICTY? Why was `Ambassador´ William Walker brought to the court to testify that there was a `massacre´ at Racak when there was no (and still is no!) evidence (while Walker's second-in-command, Canadian General Maisonneuve - who unlike Walker was watching the incident on the ground - had previously testified that on 15 January 1999 "he did not know...that anybody were killed")?

  Give me a while to think of a better answer though! However could you kindly direct me to where exactly it emerges that Buja "was brought to the court to testify that Milosevic "specifically was ordering" (let alone "committing") the murders at Racak listed in Schedule A?

  Why, Peter Taylor, if his testimony were so decisive, was Buja not brought to The Hague during the `Kosovo´ part of this farcical ´trial´?
  
  Godfred Louis-Jensen
  Copenhagen
  D E N M A R K

• Wednesday January 28, 2004 at 9:42 am
  

  Does anyone get the impression Mr May has had enough of this trial? He closed the session so quickly today either he was in a hurry to get to the bathroom or he's had enough of the crap brought in by the OTP. I'd wager the latter may be the case. Either that or he's looking for a mistrial so he can avoid embarassing himself by coming up with a guilty verdict.

  Mark another one up for Slobo, General=0, OTP= -6.

  Only a few days left and they bring in the Hungarian General to talk about what? GENERALITIES of course!

  As for the specifics, it should be clear that Slobo is charged SPECIFICALLY with EVERYTHING! Including attempted self-determination, non-compliance with the NWO, treason against the NWO, rebellion, socialism, non-alignment, attempting to pervert the course of injustice, attempted national self-defence, smoking Cuban cigars... and above all, refusal to bend over and kiss the emperor's ass!
  
  David
  Oztralia

• Wednesday January 28, 2004 at 10:05 am
  Slobo=5 Carla=0,after suddendeath
  
  ! !
  !

• Wednesday January 28, 2004 at 10:29 am
  You have not finished the charges : Global warming , El Niño , Amazon Forrest Devastation , Arctic & Antarctic ice melting , Sars , Chicken Flu , Prestige sinking , Carla del Ponte Menopausia , and still under investigation European Mars Probe failure .
  
  M P
  Panama

• Wednesday January 28, 2004 at 10:50 am
  "Lord"Hutton report : Hoon , Campbell , Blair and others exonerated , Kelly's death (with all my respect to his family)has been reduced to a mere "shit happens" . If this conclusion comes from the most respected and impartial British judge , what can be expected from characters like May , Nice , Carla and others?
  
  M P
  Panama

• Wednesday January 28, 2004 at 11:15 am
  

  Dr, Kelly had converted to Baha'i faith, which rejects suicide

  Things don't always look as they are.
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Shangri-La

• Wednesday January 28, 2004 at 11:35 am
  While it may be that he stands accused SPECIFICALLY of a series of unspecified crimes, mr. Milosevic was never accused of being a moron (as was President George W. Bush prior to his war on Iraq).

  Years ago when (then) President Milosevic was publicly accused of expelling `Kosovo Albanians´ from that Serbian province I was asking myself why on earth his Gvt. would be expelling their own citizens? And since I saw no reason for such action I decided that mr. Milosevic never even considered the idea.

  That may be the one correct conclusion (which Judge May and even the Chief Prosecutor, Carla del Ponte, may by now have (very secretly!) been reaching).

  In Clause 16 of the Second Amended Indictment (dated that Sixteenth Day of October 2001, when mrs. del Ponte's ambitions were still flying high and) to which I am referring above, the Prosecutor of the Tribunal goes out of her way to SPECIFY, that she "does not intend to suggest that any of the accused physically perpetrated any of the crimes charged, personally". Now read on:

  [quote starts]

  16. Each of the accused is individually responsible for the crimes alleged against him in this indictment under Articles 3, 5 and 7(1) of the Statute of the Tribunal. The accused planned, instigated, ordered, committed, or otherwise aided and abetted in the planning, preparation, or execution of these crimes. By using the word "committed" in this indictment, the Prosecutor does not intend to suggest that any of the accused physically perpetrated any of the crimes charged, personally. "Committing" in this indictment refers to participation in a joint criminal enterprise as a co-perpetrator. The purpose of this joint criminal enterprise was, inter alia, the expulsion of a substantial portion of the Kosovo Albanian population from the territory of the province of Kosovo in an effort to ensure continued Serbian control over the province. To fulfil this criminal purpose, each of the accused, acting individually or in concert with each other and with others known and unknown, significantly contributed to the joint criminal enterprise using the de jure and de facto powers available to him.

  [quote ends]

  Just as the word "Committing" in this `Indictment´ of hers refers to "participation" in some "joint enterprise", so do the words "planning, instigating, ordering, aiding and abetting". They are just words, unless there is evidence in their support; and mrs. del Ponte does not even charge the indictees with personally `ordering´ anything, much less maybe the socalled `massacre´ at Racak - for which there was never any shred of evidence anyway ( SECOND AMENDED INDICTMENT).

  Is milosevic getting a fair trial at The Hague? What a disgraceful farce!
  
  Godfred Louis-Jensen
  Copenhagen
  D E N M A R K

• Wednesday January 28, 2004 at 12:10 pm
  Andy, Awesome report on the ICTY testimony of a HDZ insider who admitted that the HDZ killed its own people to serve as a pretext for Operation Storm

  Also Sad to see how the Clinton administration directed the explusion campaign of some 500,000 civilians.

  ============

  As for Arben, his childish threats are characteristis of KLA behaviour and a disgrace to all decent Albanians everywhere.Arben is a prime example of why Kfor has jailed virtually the entire KLA leadership.
  
  AP V
  NY
  NY

• Wednesday January 28, 2004 at 1:17 pm
  

  I would like to ask this forum the following question:

  What good has Milosevic done during his decade long rule?

  I would appreciate if anyone could explain.

  
  
  Goran Mihajlovic
  Yugoslavia

• Wednesday January 28, 2004 at 1:23 pm
  

  Common law versus civil law or why the ICTY is based on common law?

  Plea bargaining is extremely difficult in jurisdictions based on civil law. Unlike common law systems, civil law systems have no concept of plea. If the defendant confesses in a civil law system, that confession is simply entered into evidence, but the prosecution is not absolved of the duty to present a full case. Also, unlike common law systems, prosecutors in civil law countries have limited or no power to drop or reduce charges once a case has been filed, and in some countries their power to drop or reduce charges before a case has been filed is limited. Many civil law jurists find the concept of plea bargaining to be abhorrent.

  Read more at URL :

  http://www.worldhistory.com/wiki/p/plea-bargain.htm

  
  
  Pera Bora
  Ottawa
  Canada

• Wednesday January 28, 2004 at 1:25 pm
  

  Please read the following quote from a court case in which a plea bargaining had important role. The quote is a part of an introduction which comes from Judge’s Weinstein Decision.

  Decision by Judge Jack B. Weinstein in United States v. Speed Joyeros

  The questions posed are whether acceptance of a plea of guilty and a departure downward in sentencing were appropriate in this substantial money laundering case. Serious factual and legal issues are presented by evidence of the defendant's long pretrial incarceration under onerous conditions, the government's control over funding for her counsel and the threat of much greater punishment without a plea.

  This case illustrates the danger of due process violations by intensive pressure on defendants to plead guilty because of lengthy pretrial incarcerations and [*3] the offer of advantageous deals for lesser terms of imprisonment. The stick and carrot--largely controlled by prosecutors--produces a danger of excessive coercion of a defendant and undue pressures on defense counsel to avoid trial. It requires particularly close supervision by the court to ensure voluntariness of the plea. In evaluating the need for sentencing departures the unusual tensions some defendants face while in custody awaiting trial also necessitate consideration.

  The virtual elimination of federal criminal trials, substituting administrative decisions not to prosecute or pleas of guilty, has substantially changed our federal criminal law system. Increased prosecutorial discretion and power have raised the percent of guilty pleas from 86% of all federal convictions in 1971 to 95% in 2001. Discretion not to prosecute is widely exercised. Enhancement of control of sentencing by the prosecutor as a result of sentencing guidelines and minimum sentences has increased the government's power to coerce defendants. There has been a change from the paradigmatic concept of investigation and accusation by the government of almost all persons believed to have committed crimes, trial [*4] by jury with a strong role for defense counsel, and discretion in sentencing by the court, to a system sharply reducing the role of defense counsel, the jury and the judge, and whatever protections they can afford a defendant.
  
  Pera Bora
  Ottawa
  Canada

• Wednesday January 28, 2004 at 1:27 pm
  

  Read the following excerpt from the decision of Judge Wenstein and you will find out how reliable plea bargaining is.

  Decision by Judge Jack B. Weinstein in United States v. Speed Joyeros

  ”Rule 11(f) makes clear that a plea may be accepted where there is a "factual basis" for it. The court is not required to believe that the defendant is actually guilty, or even likely to be found guilty. The documents so far produced in court do not convincingly establish guilt. Nevertheless, the admission of guilt when combined with the proffers of [*82] the government of what cooperating witnesses will say and the huge number of boxes of documents, which may or may not contain authenticable incriminating records, provide a factual basis for the plea which satisfies Rule 11(f). The court is not prepared to conclude on the basis of what it has examined that defendant is likely to be guilty. It decides merely that Rule 11(f)'s standard of a "factual basis" has been met so that the plea may be accepted.

  In the above quote I am especially impressed that the judge admits that in plea bargaining huge number of boxes of probably worthless evidence is important.

  If the court is not required to believe that the defendant is actually guilty who else is?
  
  Pera Bora
  Ottawa
  Canada

• Wednesday January 28, 2004 at 1:33 pm
  Gorane, absolutely nothing that is good for Serbian people, he should be charged with incompetence by the Serbian people. But the fact that he is incapable should not be an excuse for Clinton and rest to bomb Serbia to stop genocide that never happened, to lie regarding Racak, to arm and let Croatians expel half a million Serbs. Most of us here can’t stand Milosevic, but we love justice and law. The rule of law is the ONLY thing that prevents human beings to kill each other. It protect people from might is right, or at least it should. If ICTY is doing what is doing, we are doomed and we are heading for the world where rule of force is the only law. Maybe I am naïve but its same to me if someone is trying to rule me in the name of higher race - like Hitler, or in the name of democracy and humanitarizm - Clinton and Soros. They are pining this hole mess on Serbian people, and I do not want my child to pay for something that even Milosevic is not guilty of. He did not started war in Yugoslavia and because of it I am going to defend the interest of the Serbian People. I am sick and tired of CNN, BBC, CBC and the rest of cccis:)
  
  Dakic Ana
  Serbia

• Wednesday January 28, 2004 at 2:11 pm
  Gosp. Mihajlovic , most of us here do not simpatize with Pres. Milosevic achievements as a politician he certainly mistaken in some decisions on the other hand we will never know the scenarios , conspiracies , foreign interferences , geopolitical interests , economical interests that motivated Slobodan Milosevic to take such decisions , Yugoslavia was in the NWO ways and she had to be atomized enable to control the region , Yugoslav leaders and people were psicologically studied to exahustion to find the better way to initiate its destruction which they accomplished outstandingly . After the destruction was completed using all means legal and ilegal like the Bombardment of civilian targets in Belgrade and other cities that had nothing to do with the ongoing terrorism at that time , the aggressors had to cover their crimes somehow , and exercising the new tacit acceptance of the coward world community that "might is right" and a well orchestrated world media manipulation the ICTY was created with the sole purpose of creating somebody to be blamed but this person couldn't act unless he had the support and what better than blame President Milosevic and the whole Serb Nation whose only crime was to fight for the survival of his people and homeland , the question is: would this attitude erase any wrongdoings as a politician? , my personal answer will eternally be YES!!!!!
  
  M P
  Panama

• Wednesday January 28, 2004 at 2:11 pm
  Ana Dakic,

  People like you give the Human race a bad name. Your inability to see what is obvious when it comes to the guilt of Milosevic, leads me to conclude that the Serbs have not evolved one bit since they crawled out of the Mogulev swamps in 800 A.D.
  
  Martin Ross
  Princeton
  N.J. , USA

• Wednesday January 28, 2004 at 2:20 pm
  Dear Martin Ross,

  People like you that support liars like Walker - that claimed that Serbs executed innocent Albanians in Racak (Helena Ranta said herself it was a lie) and bomb a nation for genocide that did not exist make me vomit. It is people like YOU that give bad name to Human race. It is people like you that most likely are not who they claim to be that "crawled out of the Mogulev swamps". As for Milosevic at least he did not have a concentration camp in Cuba where he kept his enemies. Bottom line I stand Serbian and proud.
  
  Dakic Ana
  Serbia

• Wednesday January 28, 2004 at 2:42 pm
  Those like Martin Ross who use the kind of comments exhibited in his posting above do not merit the time of day from anyone who is actually able to debate, not make personal insults. Everyone, my dear Mr. Ross can stoop to your level of commentary, but most people who have a higher level of intelligence do not choose to do so. Come up with a real argument or buzz off before someone decides to make a comment about swamp dweller mentalities in Jersey, or something similar. It would be about as relevant as what you said.
  
  Anna P
  California

• Wednesday January 28, 2004 at 2:46 pm
  Then fuck off assholes! Albania will be the strongest country in the region!
  
  Martin Ross
  Princeton
  N.J. , USA

• Wednesday January 28, 2004 at 2:49 pm
  I didnt write that, but i agree
  
  Arben Quosja
  Chicago
  USA

• Wednesday January 28, 2004 at 2:51 pm
  

  What good has Milosevic done during his decade long rule?

  This is not a proper question. The tragedy of Yugoslavia has not started after Mr. Milosevic was elected president of Serbia but after the Berlin Wall was taken down and Russia abdicated from the position of the big power. Then our dear friends in the USA have decided to destroy Yugoslavia. They knew that the Serbs are the glue of Yugoslavia. In order to destroy a country one needs to destroy the glue i.e. Serbs.

  They started their action by withdrawing credits to Yugoslavia. At the same time they promised credits to Republics that leave Yugoslavia and at the same time they have been sending a message that they want Yugoslavia to remain united.

  On the question whether Mr. Milosevic and his followers have found correct contra game to this policy I would agree that he has not? But if any one is going to hold him guilty of anything this is it. Nothing else. Nothing more. To his credit he had against him a formidable enemy and impoverished Russia as a Trojan Hors.

  Let’s now turn around and look what good 14 years of involvement of so called International Community has brought to the peoples of Former Yugoslavia:

  Destruction of economy, property and ethnic tolerance in Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia, Kosovo and Macedonia and ethnic purification of Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia, and Kosovo. This was all done on the expense of Serbs plus Serbian economy and property and lives were additionally destroyed by NATO bombing and final ethic cleansing of Serbs under watchful eye of NATO. Using the ICTY as a policy laundering machine it blamed everything on the Serbs i.e. Mr. Milosevic. The ICTY since its inception has a chance to save many lives and stop many crimes. Instead of getting involved in identifying real war criminals on all the sides of the war including International Community leaders they just concluded that the Serbs are guilty of everything. This way the ICTY has become a key factor and asset in the common criminal enterprise of distraction of Yugoslavia and Serbian people. By its obsession to blame everything that happened on Serbs the ICTY has become the main obstacle in the efforts of reconciliation among peoples of Former Yugoslavia and for the ethnically cleansed Serbs to go back to their homes and reclaim their property.

  All the republics of Former Yugoslavia lost their freedom to the NATO. They will have NATO soldiers stationed there for ever. They are trampling over each other in a rush which of them is going to serve NATO better and which of them will send their soldiers earlier to Iraq and Afghanistan and so on and so on …

  Slovenian leaders who claimed that Slovenes were not properly treated in Former Yugoslavia are now saying that they had better access to the Adriatic see under Former Yugoslavia. They are openly saying that European Union is organised almost as Former Yugoslavia and that they can use their experience from Former Yugoslavia to influence future enhancements to the European Union. Carla are you listening to this.
  
  Pera Bora
  Ottawa
  Canada

• Wednesday January 28, 2004 at 2:53 pm
  

  Plea bargaining is possible in legal systems using common law (English common Law), where the finding of the truth is secondary to the trial of an adversarial character. Continental Law, Inquisitorial Law does not permit plea bargaining, nor admission of guilt since the trial will only establish by finding the truth who is the guilty party. Under Inquisitorial Law I don't think the trial of Slobodan Milosevic would have gone this far. Interesting enough the UNO General Assembly created Criminal Court of Justice is based exclusively in Inquisitorial Law, not a bit of English Common Law. No wonder the United States rejects it!
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Sangri-La

• Wednesday January 28, 2004 at 2:56 pm
  Sure , we will conquer the whole balkan trowing watermelons at our nighbors , you silly Serbs
  
  A (another) Q (queer)
  Tirana

• Wednesday January 28, 2004 at 2:59 pm
  Take a look at my homepage (www.monkeyyear@brain.org)"masterbation- the difficult one" are muslims "twanging the wire" with their left hand? and Serbs? this ought to be the top issue of the day.
  
  Arben Quosja
  Chicago
  USA

• Wednesday January 28, 2004 at 3:02 pm
  The transcripts of Borisav Jovic's testimony are finally available at the "Tribunal" website.
  
  M Gockel
  Germany

• Wednesday January 28, 2004 at 3:03 pm
  Dear Martin Ross

  You have just shown your quality.
  
  Dakic Ana
  Serbia

• Wednesday January 28, 2004 at 3:05 pm
  

  So, when anyone, a Serb of course, pleads guilty at the ICTY, the Tribunal is not any closer in finding the truth since from pleading guilty the process goes directly to sentencing and that is it. No evidence, nor witnesses have to be produced. The Prosecutor can always claim some indictees have pleaded guilty, usually as a plea bargain, in exchange for leniency or dropping of certain charges. Prosecutors in the English Common Law system are always to convict despite the fact no explanation to the motives or the crime are provided. One can assume in fact it is acceptable to be perfectly innocent and fully aware of the kangaroo nature of the tribunal plea bargain for the possible best deal. Inquisitorial Law rejects this since it does not help in finding the truth.
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Shangri-La

• Wednesday January 28, 2004 at 3:07 pm
  I would love to see civilized Albania to become the strongest country in the Balkans, but as tings are going now it has very, very, very slow start. It has definitely taken over the leadership in the criminal activity in the Balkans and it is moving into taking its leadership role into USA and Europe. The more Albanians are successful this way the more obvious will become how some of them are uncivilized. My take is that uncivilized Albanians are currently winning the battle over civilized ones. Jus today it was announced that 40 professors of Pristina University and some other prominent Albanian intellectuals in Kosovo have got death threats. Good luck my friends, I wish you to succeed soon.
  
  Pera Bora
  Ottawa
  Canada

• Wednesday January 28, 2004 at 3:19 pm
  But we need a strong leader to in order to do what pol pot did to the intelectuals, lika Hashhish heroin taci.!
  
  Muslimo muslimovic
  Albania

• Wednesday January 28, 2004 at 3:25 pm
  Short answer to question of Goran is Milosevic did no good at all especially for Serbia.

  Actually Milosevic was great for Albanian seperatists. They really loved him. Albanian nationalists were scared of politicians like Ante Markovic, Milan Panic and Nebojsa Covic.

  Pera Bora your answer is like politicians. You tell somebody they are not asking right question??? You still did not explain to me what means Vojvodian nationality. I never heard of this I think you have been out of Serbia for very long time. For you everything that happens inside Serbia comes from outside. Serbia was strongest of former Yugoslav nations she could make some decisions for herself but they were all wrong ones. If I who living here admit this what is your problem to admit it?

  At the end you compare Slovenia with Serbia? I am sure they are begging to come back with us! They are lucky ones not us.
  
  Arandjel Pasic
  Jug

• Wednesday January 28, 2004 at 4:21 pm
  Slovenia has something like $6 Billion worth of foreign debt. That is quite huge for a itty bitty place with less than 2 million people.

  Slovenia's living standards were always some 2-3 times that of Serbia's. In 2000 (ie before Djindic's putsch) , Slovenia's per capita PPP was something like 3-4 times that of Serbia.

  Relatively speaking from 1988 to 2000, Slovenian living standards (as measured by PPP) didn't do much better than Serbia.

  Any increase in Slovenian living standards seems to have come from lavish foreign debt. That $6 billion of foreign debt will continue to be a drag on Slovenian living standards for many years to come.

  Croatia and Dalmatia are worse off. They have approx. a $16 billion foreign debt and it keeps growing and growing.

  Paradoxically, getting bombed and having 10 years of sanctions did only a little more harm to Serbia living standards than did following 10 years of Washington's economic advice did for Croatia and Slovenia.
  
  AP V
  NY
  NY

• Wednesday January 28, 2004 at 4:31 pm
  
  MP: This most respected and impartial British Judge, Lord Hutton, took part I believe in the Widgery Inquiry into 'Bloody Sunday' which was also labelled a whitewash: so much so that it has had to be succeeded by yet another another enquiry into the same events by Lord Saville.

  The law lord was also involved in the ruling that David Shayler, the former MI5 agent, could not argue he was acting in the public interest by revealing secrets such as the plan to murder Milosevic.

  The Blair Dictatorship has entered its final phase.

  Now that the BBC has been branded a bunch of liars by the establishment perhaps some of its reporters can be encouraged to spill the beans on the lies told about Kosovo before and during the assault on Serbia.
  
  Peter Taylor
  Herts/UK

• Wednesday January 28, 2004 at 4:57 pm
  Mr. AP V, You apparently do not live in Serbia. If you did you would not say what you just say. People in Serbia having very difficult time to live. We do not get good food as in Slovenia. Serbs have no jobs. What is wrong with you? Have you no common sense. People suffering hear in Serbia and you say everything is fine. I would love to live in Slovenia or Croatia. Milosevic did this to us. He should stay in prison till he die. A not so proud Serb.
  
  Dejan V
  Nis
  Serbia

• Wednesday January 28, 2004 at 4:57 pm
  Peter: They perfectly know that the kosovo case has been built on lies , its been demonstrated to the boredom the ilegality of the ICTY . But will anybody be "macho" enough to bring unobjectable evidence? if he does he is dead meat as far as a journalist for the U.K. and if he's got family he'll think twice before doing it . on the other hand truth is becoming more and more hard to conceal for the clowns at The Hague , at the end somebody elses ass and not Milosevic's will be on the history grill.
  
  M P
  Panama

• Wednesday January 28, 2004 at 5:02 pm
  Dejan , you sold Milosevic for your 13 pieces , he has been history for a some time , where is the money and jobs that were going to pour after the "sale" of a President to your killers?
  
  M P
  Panama

• Wednesday January 28, 2004 at 5:05 pm
  
  Godfred:

  The answer to your latest question is that Shukri Buja was presented as a witness during the Kosovo section of the trial: on 5 June 2002. Please note, as your question seems to infer, that I have made no claim that his testimony was “so decisive”. In fact I believe anyone reading the trial transcripts will see that it is in many parts deeply dishonest, evasive and unconvincing.

  As for your other questions I can only refer you again to these words written in the indictment:

  98. Beginning on or about 1 January 1999 and continuing until the date of this indictment, forces of the FRY and Serbia, acting at the direction, with the encouragement, or with the support of Slobodan MILOSEVIC … have murdered hundreds of Kosovo Albanian civilians. These killings have occurred in a widespread or systematic manner throughout the province of Kosovo and have resulted in the deaths of numerous men, women, and children. Included among the incidents of mass killings are the following:

  a. On or about 15 January 1999, in the early morning hours, the village of Racak (Stimlje/Shtime municipality) was attacked by forces of the FRY and Serbia. After shelling by the VJ units, the Serb police entered the village later in the morning and began conducting house-to-house searches. Villagers, who attempted to flee from the Serb police, were shot throughout the village. A group of approximately 25 men attempted to hide in a building, but were discovered by the Serb police. They were beaten and then were removed to a nearby hill, where the policemen shot and killed them. Altogether, the forces of the FRY and Serbia killed approximately 45 Kosovo Albanians in and around Racak. (Those persons killed who are known by name are set forth in Schedule A, which is attached as an appendix to this indictment.)

  …

  100. By these actions Slobodan MILOSEVIC … planned, instigated, ordered, committed or otherwise aided and abetted the planning, preparation or execution of:

  Deportation, murder, persecution. A list of names of those allegedly murdered at Racak follows immediately in Schedule A.

  I do not understand how anyone can interpret the words written above as not specifically (in detail) charging Milosevic with ordering the murder of the 42 named victims at Racak. Thus on this matter we must agree to differ. You may continue to claim that Milosevic is not charged with ordering the 42 named victims at Racak. I will continue to refer you to the words written in the indictment.

  Your dismissal of the importance of the failure to indict Major Radosavljevic - regardless of the reasons why he has not been indicted - is also, I believe, a mistake. How can Milosevic be convicted of ordering the murder of the inhabitants of Racak on 15 January 1999 if the officer carrying out that alleged order, Major Radosavljevic is not also indicted for their murder? Surely this is an outstanding nonsense recognised even in this madhouse in The Hague noted for its nonsense.
  
  Peter Taylor
  Herts/UK

• Wednesday January 28, 2004 at 5:10 pm
  

  Arandjel, out of many posts that I have posted lately you have focused on only two. In the first one you are focusing on a minor issue which has nothing to do with the crux of mine post. I was answering to a poster that wanted Vojvodina to separate from Serbia. If it ever happens how people form this new Balkan country would call them selves? So I made my “wild” guess. Once upon a time when I lived in Yugoslavia people of that region called them self Vojvodjani. Even if I am wrong, do you sincerely believe that on this one you will discredit me on this board?

  One has freedom to post comments on this board as one deems suitable and I do so. Let Goran engage me. I am not a big bad wolf.

  When it comes to Nebojsa Covic I admire his work tremendously. I am just said that he can not get more support in elections in Serbia. I never stated anything differently on this board.

  When it comes to Mr. Panic he was, if I may have my opinion, sabotaged more by Western politicians than by Mr. Milosevic. He proposed many good measures to bring down tension in Bosnia but all of them were mocked out of existence by Western leaders and not by Mr. Milosevic. Mr. Milosevic has found that Mr. Panic was deliberately trying to steal Galenika from its shear holders. West then jumped to support Mr. Panic. Democratic Party leaders jumped to his defense, as well. When the rule of Mr. Milosevic was abolished, the new government looked into the books and found that accusations against Mr. Panic stand ground.

  When it comes to Mr. Markovic I have heard a lot of good stories about him, but I remember some things my self. For example following the statement of USA Secretary of State he ordered Yugoslav army to intervene in Slovenia because he strongly believed that USA wants united Yugoslavia. We have seen him recently, under the oath, blaming his actions on Mr. Milosevic, hardly respectable and honest behavior. I hope that you understand that the order to the territorial defense of Slovenia to capture border crossings of Yugoslavia was an illegal act according to the International law and Yugoslav constitution and that this was the first hostile actions that lead to the civil war in Former Yugoslavia.

  I was never comparing Serbia and Slovenia. Slovenia not Serbia was always in the strongest position in the former Yugoslavia. They natured it and they used it to there benefit very successfully. I was saying that Slovenians were dishonest in some of their claims and accusations against Serbia, and that now when they are entering Europe and recapture market share in Serbia they are paddling back big time.

  I will disappoint you. I have done no harm in the latest wars of the Balkans I do not have to admit anything. For you I do not know. Have you done any crimes? I can not admit anything on behalf of anybody else. I am sorry.

  I was and I am still blaming Mr. Milosevic for many things, unfortunately he is not accused of any of these things by the ICTY. Unfortunately for the people like me the more blames are placing against Mr. Milosevic the more of this blames fail to materialize. The longer this trial last the better Mr. Milosevic looks and people like me look more and more like naïve fools. Unfortunately for me, many accusations of Mr. Milosevic even in Serbia are failing to produce evidence.

  It is not Albanian terrorist that have outsmarted or effectively used Mr. Milosevic it was as I have already pointed out power and trickery of the West supported by the Trojan Hors behavior of Russia.

  Since, you are in an admitting mode would you admit to the false accusation that surfaced yesterday that anti Semitic parties advanced in Serbia recently.
  
  Pera Bora
  Ottawa
  Canada

• Wednesday January 28, 2004 at 5:25 pm
  To Dakic Ana:

  You are so ignorant. You learned by heart one story and you are repeating it, even though you don'f have the foggiest idea what are you talking about.

  You do not even check facts about your own Serbian people, you just post whatever here, even when you heard somebody talking about something on the bus.

  You don't do good to Serbian people either. You are a blind nationalist

  Are you married?
  
  F Y
  I

• Wednesday January 28, 2004 at 5:49 pm
  Sure I am married and have a child. You may be right I might be ignorant. I am nationalist mind you I have no problem and I support anybody that is: Proud Albanian, Proud Irish, Proud Croatian etc. The fact that I love mine nation does not mean I hate other. As a matter of fact one of my best friends that lives door nex to mine is Albanian. We live in Belgrade. I would like to show me as I am ignorent where in Pristina you have such situation? Since I do not have "foggiest" idea please educate me in living togather in Pristina. I dare you to walk outside and speak Serbian in Pristina. Look I do not give a rats if Kosovo is going to be called Kosovo or Kosova, but I do care if people living there (including Serbs) would AT LEAST have a right to go out and do groceries. Since they bomb me in the name of freedoom where is that promissed freedom when it comes to Kosovo?
  
  Dakic Ana
  Serbia

• Wednesday January 28, 2004 at 5:55 pm
  Somebody once on this forum accused you of false claim living in Serbia. At the end you admitted you werent.

  So, where does your Albanian neighbour live? (as I said you often repeat same story even though - ....
  
  A Q
  Not a your neighbour

• Wednesday January 28, 2004 at 5:57 pm
  As I said Belgrade and her family name is Ibisi.
  
  Dakic Ana
  Serbia

• Wednesday January 28, 2004 at 6:00 pm
  Yet again give me an exmple of such situation in Pristina?
  
  Dakic Ana
  Serbia

• Wednesday January 28, 2004 at 6:01 pm
  Ana, do you really post here to use this forum to spend time and entertain yourself copyinig and repeating stories?

  I know you have good intention, however you would better serve your nation to produce something and pay taxes.
  
  Me Me
  US

• Wednesday January 28, 2004 at 6:06 pm
  Ana, I will find your post where you said I think to Mr. Pasic that you do not live in Serbia (Since he was chalenging you). When I found that conversation I will copy and I will post it here, just for your record.
  
  A Q.
  Nor a your neighbour

• Wednesday January 28, 2004 at 6:08 pm
  "do you really post here to use this forum to spend time and entertain yourself copyinig and repeating stories?" Actualy I do. I find this fun. As for taxes I live that to you, I guess to finance all ridicules enterprises of your government. As for serving my country what better way can I serve than breaking the fog of lies that were pinned onto my nation in the past 15 years.
  
  Dakic Ana
  Serbia

• Wednesday January 28, 2004 at 6:12 pm
  That is true. I did live in Serbia, parents still live there and I spend a lot of time there even now. It does not change the fact that my friend and me are on the net talking almoust every day, that we talk on the phone every 7 days and that I am sendig her stuff for her new born baby. And I think its fair that you know my intentions since I declare I live in Serbia and protect Serbian interests.
  
  Dakic Ana
  Serbia

• Wednesday January 28, 2004 at 6:13 pm
  PS I am still waiting for your Pristina example.
  
  Dakic Ana
  Serbia

• Wednesday January 28, 2004 at 6:17 pm
  So, why did you need 5 posts to admit that you in fact do not have an Albanian neighbour in Belgrade. It is your parents NOT YOU You were caught red handed. Who laid once ......
  
  A Q
  Not a your neighbour

• Wednesday January 28, 2004 at 6:21 pm
  So the fact I lived with her ( and my parrents) for ten years before I left and she still lives there does not change the fact that we are friends and that she is still Albanian, that she cares about my moms place and that my mom picks her kids after school and bakes for them. Yet again give the same example in Pristina!
  
  Dakic Ana
  Serbia

• Wednesday January 28, 2004 at 6:21 pm
  So the fact I lived with her ( and my parrents) for ten years before I left and she still lives there does not change the fact that we are friends and that she is still Albanian, that she cares about my moms place and that my mom picks her kids after school and bakes for them. Yet again give the same example in Pristina!
  
  Dakic Ana
  Serbia

• Wednesday January 28, 2004 at 6:22 pm
  

  Hutton blames the BBC, satisfied the Muslim Kelly died by suicide (!) Blair does also. In Washington Kay thinks Saddam lied about the WMD forcing the USA into a subconscious war. Cloak, dagger and blood. The Night of the Long Knives is coming, again.And there are people wondering about President Slobodan Milosevic?

  Can't they see the difference?
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Shangri-La

• Wednesday January 28, 2004 at 6:31 pm
  Ana, here it is:

  Sunday March 16, 2003 at 12:54 pm

  They are going after Zemun clan and setling the scores with small time criminals. But is it keystone cops? Uncapable cops we have many of them. Did you see them last night trying to blow up Siptar Spasojevic trzni centar? It was funny the building did not fall at all.

  Only very few people know what really hapened. Police are ordered to clean up Zemun gang. Mihajlovic he is real example of fool. Of course we cannot trust our police so much. We know it. They are not paid so much any police in world would accept money from criminals. This is way society was criminalised in last ten years. It is normal behavour. As for Interpol. Call them to come in but will it change anything? What is your opinion Anna? Where are you? Is situation same in your town if you are outside Belgrade?

  Arandjel P V Srbija

  Sunday March 16, 2003 at 1:12 pm You are right; I am outside from Serbia, but Serbian. I live in Canada but on this forum, I think it is fair to claim that I am Serbian because I do defend Serbian point of view. I am pro Serbian and I am bias. Otherwise, my family is from Cacak. There are some issues I am concerned about. Most importantly, do not think anybody told public how long this "state of emergency" should last. Two months, half of the year, one, 10 for how long. Secondly, what is the goal of this? Cleaning up Mafia. If you can not trust police, trust people. Pool out reservists in the army, fire half of police and bring new people in, produce special training, invite Italian inspectors and police to help (they deal with this on everyday bases) and achieve goals.

  Dakic Ana Serbia
  
  A Q
  US

• Wednesday January 28, 2004 at 6:35 pm
  Carl Bildt is set to testify at the Milosevic trial. This is the lastest attempt by the prosecution to try and squeeze in last witnesses before Mr. Milosevic gets his time in the court. Bildt will come and provide teh court with a written statement and answer questions only to 3 meetings he has had (restricted cross examintion again). The accused could only ask questions about the written account.
  
  Dan B
  Canada

• Wednesday January 28, 2004 at 6:54 pm
  Arangel I did not know that I needed your permission to make a comment to Mr. Suvic about the Belgrade crowds? You write “Walter Trkla how dare you say that crowds in Belgrade were propaganda? . If you remember Arangel I wrote “The crowds in Belgrade that you write about and claim that everyone was against Slobo shows to me that the propaganda has you hooked.” The intent of this comment was to show how the same crowd can be used by the cameraman and the reporter to show their bias.

  In London, recently the crowds in the anti Iraq War numbered close to a million. On many Western news outlets the numbers were anywhere from 100 thousand to five hundred thousand. We had the same misrepresentation about the Belgrade crowd. I am sure that not everyone in Belgrade was in that crowd. In fact I am sure that not even 25% of the citizens were in that crowd. All I know is that the Western Media constantly manipulates their reports depending on their political slant.

  If that crowd was supporting the Gindjic regime and those who came after him they were supporting the OLOS, (DREGS) BARABE, (RIFF-RAFF) and IZDAJNIKE, (QUISLINGS). Those who sent Milosevic to the Hague and those like Perisic will one day face the Serbian people from the docket and they will be remembered as ‘brabonjci na cedulji’ or in English “sheep droppings on a cheese cloth.
  
  walter Trkla
  Kamloops BC
  Canada

• Wednesday January 28, 2004 at 6:56 pm
  45 minutes will chase Blair ass no matter the arguments , this is a proven fact . 0 WMD will chase Bush ass no matter the arguments , this is a proven fact ; still "lard"Hutton may say that originally the British inteligence report originally was saying 450000 minutes and was a "lapsus calami" and Bush is well known for his "lapsus linguae" the show goes on , tragedy has been brought to 100 million people in the name of "humanitarian intervention" Hulliburton is making a killing , oil is flowing (Happy ever after at the market place Molly stays at home and does her pretty face , !obladi oblada life goes on bra¡¡¡ la la how the life goes on
  
  M P
  Panama

• Wednesday January 28, 2004 at 7:10 pm
  And your point is? Give me same example in Pristina?
  
  Dakic Ana
  Serbia

• Wednesday January 28, 2004 at 7:12 pm
  Born in Cacak Lived in Belgrade since 1976.
  
  Dakic Ana
  Serbia

• Wednesday January 28, 2004 at 7:31 pm
  Dakic,

  You wrote: As for serving my country what better way can I serve than breaking the fog of lies that were pinned onto my nation in the past 15 years.

  Couldn't agree more. Never been to Serbia, probably never will.. but I too think I can serve my country in no better way than at least to try and break the fog of lies that were pinned on my nation in the past 15 years. Being lied to is second only to being lied about.

  How does one erase national guilt?

  Regards,
  
  Ian Davis
  Waterloo,
  Ontario, Canada

• Wednesday January 28, 2004 at 7:45 pm
  I do not know how some erase national guilt. I guess we have to ask some other nations that have succesfully done so(Germans, USA). Maybe the start is remembering those that were sent to do a job for its country (to do something good) and in that process were forgoten. E.g. Princess Patricia regiment of Canada serving as a peacekeepers in Croatia, fighting first battle after Korean war (fought against Croatian forces to protect Serban civilians), and not being "recognised" for years for what they did. What is the name of the book - "Tested Mettle" Brian Nolan and Scott Taylor. Later some of those soldgers were killed in Afganistan by "friendly fire". I guess remembering those is a start.
  
  Dakic Ana
  serbia

• Wednesday January 28, 2004 at 8:36 pm
  People like dakic Ana misrepresent decent moderate Serbs like me. Why cannot they see what harm they are doing. She make us look like primative animal. She has also been caught in some lies. Serbia will never be accept by rest of Europe if Serbs like her continue to speak with hate for other groups. You know like Croat, Bosnian muslim, Albannean and even Slovene. I can also see much hate for jews from lot of Serbs on this group. WHY SUCH HATE? You are no fooling everyone.
  
  Dejan V
  NIS
  SERBIA

• Wednesday January 28, 2004 at 8:46 pm
  Has anyone noticed that amicus Tapuskovic's clashes with the ICTY "judges" are becoming more bitter and heated than Milosevic's? Of course, he can get away with so much more. The "judges" can't very well imprison him for contempt or threaten to indict him for war crimes or cut off his communications with the outside world or prevent his seeing his wife and children or to threaten to impose an attorney on him or disbar him. He has nothing to lose by calling May and his incomptent chums clowns in fancy robes.

  Here's an excerpt from Tapuskovic's cross-examination of a witness on Dec. 17, 2003:

  MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think that these three statements that were all translated into English should be admitted into evidence, because they may be of relevance when you are assessing this witness's statement. I have copies of all three.

  JUDGE MAY: In the presence of the witness, and he should hear this, that I am not assisted by accounts which it's said may vary. It's easy to show long after the very traumatic events that a witness may or may not have given this account in one statement and may have given a slightly different account in another. I don't think it's been disputed that this witness has been injured. We've seen the photographs. I think in fairness to him, that should be said. But we'll certainly admit these statements for what it's worth. Yes.

  MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, just two words, please. What I did and what I tried to present here before you for the witness to explain is something I'm doing because it's the way things have to be done, and I think that these are things that have to be assessed very carefully. Of course I have all due respect for what people have experienced, and it is hard for us to ask someone to explain everything the same way every time, but this basic piece of information, where someone was actually wounded, this basic tragic event cannot be recounted in different ways on different occasions.

  JUDGE ROBINSON: Unless you're really suggesting that the incident did not take place and that this gentleman was not hit at all, then what really is the purpose of that line of cross-examination? Whether he was hit in the stomach or in the chest or on the right or the left. If you're really saying the incident didn't take place and that he is lying, then you should put that squarely to him.

  MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour Judge Robinson, I really should not have to explain this a countless number of times. It will certainly be for you to assess.

  JUDGE MAY: I'm going to interrupt you, Mr. Tapuskovic, because you are answering the Judge, and you're not dealing with the matter with what I suggest is the thought that it requires. Now, I don't think we'll continue this argument. You've heard what we've said about it. We are not assisted by this line of questioning. Not even Mr. Milosevic has said that this witness wasn't injured. I don't really think it's right for you to suggest it.

  MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I do not wish to enter a polemic with regard to this. If every witness who comes here has to be accepted a priori, then I believe that my cross-examination did not serve any purpose whatsoever, and then in future I will allow Mr. Kay to do this every time. I will have to proceed in this manner if I see that there are contradictory elements in different statements. I am not doing anything but indicating that there are contradictions in different statements given by the same witness. If I cannot do that, as someone who has been doing that all his life, then in the future I'm going to avoid doing this altogether.

  JUDGE ROBINSON: I have been assisted by your cross-examination in the past. Just now I wasn't, and I've explained why.

  MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
  
  Robert Hessen
  Seattle
  Washington

• Wednesday January 28, 2004 at 8:51 pm
  

  Interesting: Goran got about three answers to his question and only Aranjel is answering to them.

  Interesting A.Q. remembers what Ana answerd to Aranjel Pasic months ago.
  
  Pera Bora
  Ottawa
  Canada

• Wednesday January 28, 2004 at 8:53 pm
  

  The excerpt from the Milosevic cross examination of Sarinic as posted by Mr.P.M. of USA is simply astounding.

  There was an admission in court by a Croatian official that there were STAGED events which were used as an excuse for the Croatian offensive. Such an item would have caused major headlines in the papers were it not for the fact that USA was implicated in the whole thing. Not a peep from any paper. Where is Marylise Simmons?

  This is how “Trial of the century “ is being presented in the US. Nothing! Ziltch!

  I am just wondering what revelations Milosevic has up his sleeves when he opens HIS defense?
  
  D. Jovanovic, physicist
  USA

• Wednesday January 28, 2004 at 9:03 pm
  People that are posting on this board are presenting only them selves not nations or nationalities. No post on this board would do any harm to Serbia or any other country or people in the world. Speak Dejane in moderation and you will be heard on this board.
  
  Pera Bora
  Ottawa
  Canada

• Wednesday January 28, 2004 at 9:09 pm
  I do not beleive Goran is from Nis since no Serbian in their right mind would say something like that. As for hate let me put it this way: I could not care less if my child marries Albanian, Croat, Afgan, Japan person, who cares. I am not big on muslim religion because I find it opresive toward women, but if that is my childs choice so be it. They would become my family too. But I hate hipocrats and I hate people that beg and are ready to sell themself for fist of dollars. And I hate lies. I know trah Serbian idiots like Arkan did make a lot of mess, that is why I do not understand that he was arrested in Zagreb and released in 1991. But Serbs were for Yugoslavia, and since west made my country in which I have lived very happely disappear, I do not understand by what logic they would accept Serbia if old Yugoslavia was not good enough?
  
  Dakic Ana
  Serbia

• Wednesday January 28, 2004 at 9:10 pm
  Mr. Dejan V.

  Ms. Dakic is a voice of truth and justice. I have not detected any such statements you ascribe to her. SHE DOES NOT PREACH HATE!

  Could it be possible that you yourself is trying to discredit her for some purposes of your own?

  I am an American citizen, of 50 years, but born and raised in Yugoslavia. What I see Ms. Dakic doing is noble and brave. She is trying to remove the blame, dirt and lies thrown at the Serbs by the conniving American propagandist in the pay of Croatian, Muslims and Albanians.

  I am grateful for her posts.
  
  D. Jovanovic, physicist
  USA

• Wednesday January 28, 2004 at 9:12 pm
  

  A good example of that took place in today's session ending moments when Mr. Nice (NATO) said to judge May (NATO) he will not need to re-examine the witness since Mr. Tapuskovic (who had been abruptly shut off by May (NATO)) had, as he put it, also finished his cross-examination. Mr. Tapuskovic vehemently protested to May (NATO), saying he was mislead by May (NATO) who had said earlier he had another 20 minutes. I have never seen a trial where the court players are so treacherous to each other, a really poisonous atmosphere reign in the court room. It may be the common law thing.
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Shangri-La

• Wednesday January 28, 2004 at 9:13 pm
  PS Croats, Slovens, Albanians, Macedonians and Bosnians(who had to invent i9ts nationality) have right to be proud in thair own nation. Only Serbs are called nationalist when they say they are Serbs. Why?
  
  Dakic Ana
  Serbia

• Wednesday January 28, 2004 at 9:21 pm
  THE HAGUE -- Wednesday - Former Swedish Prime Minister Carl Bildt will take the stand in the trial of Slobodan Milosevic on February 4, the prosecution at the United Nations war crimes tribunal said today. With only eight working days left to present their case, prosecutors have asked that Bildt’s evidence be submitted as a written statement in order to save time. If the Trial Chamber agrees, he will appear in the witness box to confirm the authenticity of his statement and answer any additional questions. Bildt co-chaired the 1995 Dayton peace conference and was the international community’s first High Representative in Bosnia. His evidence is expected to focus on three meetings between July 7 and 15, 1995. Prosecutors have asked that Milosevic, who is defending himself against 66 counts of war crimes, be ordered to limit his cross-examination to the contents of the written statement. Bildt’s name has appeared on several occasions during the trial, in particular in relation to events in July 1995 and the fall of Zepa and Srebrenica.
  
  Dan B
  Canada

• Wednesday January 28, 2004 at 9:32 pm
  

  It is very interesting that the Croatian document that testifies on Cration staged events in order to justify their actions against the Serbs came from the prosseccution of the ICTY. This points out that if the ICTY prosecutors want to know about Croatian crimes against Serbs they have already enough evidence on their hands. This turning out into mockery of justince. It is not a trial anymore.
  
  Pera Bora
  Ottawa
  Canada