 MILOSEVIC TRIAL DISCUSSION ARCHIVE |
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Former Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic is on trial for war crimes in the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia at The Hague. This marks the first time a head of state has been personally prosecuted before an international criminal court.
Is Slobodan Milosevic getting a fair trial?
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- discussion archive
- Thursday July 03, 2003 at 12:19 am
Tapuskovic Faces off with Mr. May
“Mr. Tapuskovic, you are not here to represent Serbia nor are you here to defend the accused. The accused has his own defense.” Just to add quickly to Vera’s report.
The last high caliber witness was first damaged through the cross-examination by Slobodan Milosevic and as the ‘trial’ moved on, Mr. Tapuskovic managed to completely catch the witness in lies, lies, thus leaving this witness sitting and hoping that he had not even appeared to give his opinion. General Imre Agotic ended up contradicting himself, and this is when Mr. May intervened accusing Mr. Tapuskovic of “taking Milosevic’s side”. Tapuskovic’s questions completely showed that the witness was not expecting hardball questions. Judge Kwon then went on to question Tapuskovic’s motives.
to be continued…
Dan B
Canada - Thursday July 03, 2003 at 2:21 am
Ian you write that Mr. May “would then be in contempt of the UN security council resolution which created the ICTY ”if he “fails to note and/or prosecute crimes that occurred during this period by any and all parties then he is wilfully disregarding the very justification for the creation of the ICTY.” Mr. May, like jurists in Canada cannot be charged with a crime or sued civilly for negligence if they willfully disregard the rule of law and due process. My understanding is that they can be dismissed from the case and the case can be appealed. All those working for ICTY, including the judges, have immunity against prosecution. May might be Lucifer but he is NATO’s angel.Ian you also state that “Judge May may be correct in claiming that the events around the "Operation Storm" are of no relevance to the Milosevic indictment.” After seeing the tape of the Abdic testimony I did not get the impression that Mr. May saw Operation Storm as irrelevant and for the most part he allowed Milosevic to pose questions to Abdic about the attacks on refugee columns and Croatia’s plans to expel all the Serbs from Krajina. Milosevic quoted the minutes of the session where Tudjman and Abdic were present and decisions took place to expel all the Serbs and repopulate the region with Croats.
Mr. May became agitated when Milosevic asked Abdic about Croatian atrocities before and during the war. It was at this point that May interrupted Milosevic and called his statements propaganda while at the same time he coached the witness Abdic and asked him leading questions about Vukovar. Milosevic never lost his composure and came off smelling like a rose on Monday while Mr. May came across as the reincarnation of Judge Hoffman in the Chicago Seven Trial and Abdic came across as Judas.
Walter Trkla
Kamloops BC
Canada - Thursday July 03, 2003 at 2:30 am
Walter, re the trial of June 30th, I found myself intrigued by Mr. May's assertions bordering on absolute certainty given the witness stating not knowing about killings in Sisak and elsewhere in 1991 (as claimed by Milosevic) that such claims were Lies and Propoganda and later to hear him repeat Lies. It's not true.1991 pre dates the web, so coverage from that period is sparse. However I did find the following reference to these events which Mr. May claims to be nothing more than lies and propoganda. I find Mr. May's certainty on this issue strange, given the following evidence substantiating Mr. Milosevic's claims.
Perhaps others more familiar with Croatia in 1991 than I might comment on the claims and signed statements described below:
- Thursday July 03, 2003 at 2:32 am
Further correction: The URL I refer to is:http://www.mosquitonet.com/~prewett/croatiaarrestformercop.html
Ian Davis
Wateroo
Ontario, Canada - Thursday July 03, 2003 at 4:08 am
May chastised Tapuskovic for defending Serbia!? I thought Milosevic was the one on trial here, or have I missed something in the "private" sessions? Seems to me he's unwittingly slipped up on what the show is all about. The testimony given by a spate of recent witnesses reveals crimes by Muslims and Croats, crimes which are NOT being prosecuted. It does make things uncomfortable for May that he has to sit there and his whole ICTY is clearly turning a blind eye to such crimes ... Ah! The blindness of justice it must be!He HAS to silence Tapuskovic, small hints and time deduction hadn't worked as Tapuskovic merely became more concise with his points, raising numerous questions which are unanswered due to lack of time allocated to him by May. Ironically, this seems to have increased the importance of Tapuskovic's questions and the lack of information arising from them. May is faced with the dilemma of having had the points raised but not dealt with in his court. The "prosecutions" ineptness seems to have spurred May's outbursts to a more vitriolic level than even in the Kosovo part. Then again, maybe he's just another Slav-ophobe as his caustic and vitriolic remarks seem to be directed SOLELY at Milosevic and Tapuskovic. Can anyone else think of or remember any other targets where he's been so consistent? I can't!
MAYBE SOMEONE SHOULD INSTRUCT MR MAY THAT HE'S NOT THERE TO DEFEND NATO OR TO RESCUE THE "PROSECUTIONS" EVER WITHERING CASE!
David
Australia - Thursday July 03, 2003 at 4:26 am
Ian I have translated documents for a Muslim family here in Kamloops and they told me that Serbian dentist and his family from his home town of Capljina who lived in an apartment next door to him were killed by Croats. May knows full well that weeks before the war broke out a Macedonian JNA soldier in Split was pulled out of his military vehicle and his throat was cut for the entire world to see. The police just stud by and did nothing.
Walter Trkla
kamloops BC
Canada - Thursday July 03, 2003 at 4:30 am
Mats G (July 02, 2003 at 12:56 pm)Absolutely, - it "is more complicated than that".
However it is also vital to remember, that somehow "Es began mit einer Lüge", - it all started with a lie! And that lie was with (U.S.) Ambassador William Walker and the lie was Walker...
Dennis Revell,
Well, - have I become the nit-picky one? Allright, - OK!
However, why do YOU pick on Rebecka Justice, - when you cannot even spell her name correctly?
Why don't we vote for her instead to replace Judge May at the ICTY? Here is a preview of a possible verdict then:
The Presiding Judge: "Mr. Accused! It would be more POLITE if you would remember that the U.S. is providing a FREE service. Some of the remarks directed at the Administrators are totally uncalled for, and have the tendency to make you look like a spoiled brat. Your time is up - you are finished!"
(The accused withdrew).
Godfred Louis-Jensen
Copenhagen
D E N M A R K - Thursday July 03, 2003 at 4:39 am
GodfredIn my humble opinion, it may be that Rebecca might be more suited to presiding over the Baltic trials.
David
Australia - Thursday July 03, 2003 at 5:14 am
Godfred Louis-JensenHeh, heh.
David said:
"Godfred In my humble opinion, it may be that Rebecca might be more suited to presiding over the Baltic trials."
Double heh, heh.
Dennis Revell
USA - Thursday July 03, 2003 at 5:59 am
Dennis Revell, HAVING READ the "Complete Analysis of the Incident at Racak" by Chris Soda to which you kindly provided a link, UNIMPRESSED still with that report "done in the very early days" (?), AGREEING absolutely that more than once "Milosevic Trial Discussion" posters such as "Jari Noussainen and others, notably Vera Martinovic, pretty much destroyed any purported validity, legallity, even-handedness and morality of the ICTY", SURPRISED that you did (re-)post then that ancient link, WILLING though to be even-handed, and to apply a certain level of hyper-criticallity and consequent dismissiveness to all other web-sites on the subject, and related subjects, INCLUDING the Emperor's Clothes web-site, and in particular Francisco Gil-White's piece "The Road to Jenin" in which he likewise purports to be "analyzing everything" on Racak, SUGGESTING that in fact the analysis behind the "questions" put by mr. Milosevic to witnesses of the Prosecution (maybe notably the Canadian general, Maissonneuve (28 May, 2002), Ambassador Walker (12 June, 2002) and more recently the "court witness", Finnish Dr. Ranta (12 March this year), seem by far the best offered so far, SEARCHING still for that (brief)conclusive to-the-point report on Racak, CONSIDERING that a link given by Chris Soda in the above "Analysis" no longer seems to work, BEGGING for a link (or lead) to Dr. Ranta's socalled "report" on the EU forensic expert's work on Racak dated 17 March, 1999 which was in fact a press release giving the Finnish pathologist's own "opinion" about the incident at Racak, I remain,
Godfred Louis-Jensen
Copenhagen
D E N M A R K - Thursday July 03, 2003 at 6:33 am
Big trouble ahead, the prosecution is requesting a number of 92bis witnesses be admitted without cross-examination. This will violate the court's own ruling at the beginning of trial ordering all 92bis witness to be cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic.
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La - Thursday July 03, 2003 at 6:42 am
Actually Godfred I have been the one doing the thinking. On balance this tribunal is creating some kind of 'history' is it not? In which case Tapuskovic's performance (generally less bombastic - up until recently, and calmer than Milosevic's) is important or even vital. Tapuskovic must be on huge earnings if he receives a similar amount for law practice in Serbia as Vera says but the whole issue is difficult to think about. Ironic that perhaps the only thing that all trial watchers may agree upon is that Tapuskovic's appearance at the Hague has been useful, but for very different reasons. When all is taken into account even if amicus defies Mr Milosevic's wishes, this trial is as much about him (Milosevic) as it is the Serbian nation. If the Serbian nation benefits by Tapuskovic then so be it.Thanks Vera for your view on the matter.
I can hardly wait for that clucking mother goose figure to return to chastise us one by one.
R Desmond
US - Thursday July 03, 2003 at 6:59 am
David,with reference to the "Baltic Trials" (still pending), may I quote just a bit more from the article in the Swedish daily Aftonbladet on 28 June, 2003 (Milosevics sista strid) in which Staffan Henderson is suggesting, that news from (the trial against mr. Milosevic at) "the Hague is overshadowing the evil of this World", but:
"...generally speaking the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia has been earning respect in almost all camps (or "quarters)..."
(Text in Swedish: "Men generelt har domstolen vunnit respekt i nästan alla läger").
Staffan Heimerson then goes on to quote Amarican Assistant Professor Gary J Bass for characterizing the "trial against Milosevic as the most important moment for internatinal law since the (Israeli) trial against Adolf Eichmann (in) 1961".
"Eichmann was sentenced to death although "just following orders," Heimerson notes, "The death panalty is not on in the Hague however...(although) when the trial (against Milosevic) turned to "Croatia" and Bosnia" we (?) were given an insight in how one of the most murderish regime in history were operating".
Sic!
Godfred Louis-Jensen
Copenhagen
D E N M A R K - Thursday July 03, 2003 at 7:35 am
R Desmond (July 03, 2003 at 6:42 am),Right, - thanks (indeed to Vera Martinovic as well)!
Everyone,
MISSING LINK
Would you have a link (or any other kind of lead) to the "press release" by Dr. Helena Ranta dated 17 March, 1999 (just one week before the NATO aggression against the FRY!) often erroneously, confusingly and even quite ridiculously referred to as a "Report by the EU-FET" or something like that (also during Dr. Ranta's testimony as a "court witness" on 12 March this year)?
A link (1) was certainly given by Chris Soda in his "Complete Analysis of the Incident at Racak", but that does not appear to "work" (any longer).
(1) http://www.usia.gov/regional/eur/balkans/kosovo/texts/racak.htm
Godfred Louis-Jensen
Copenhagen
D E N M A R K - Thursday July 03, 2003 at 8:54 am
Alas Ana Dakic has misquoted Martin Niemoller 'First they came for the Jews and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew...' He did not (and could not) say this as it is chronologically untrue. He began the list with 'First they came for the Communists'see this
and
http://nellie.pacificu.edu/ohrc/YomHaShoah2002.pdf
and from
http://www.liv-coll.ac.uk/pa09/europetrip/brussels/neimoller.htm#quote
The quotation with a life of its own Everbody loves to quote Martin Niemöller’s lines about moral failure in the face of the Holocaust: 'First they came for the Communists, but I was not a Communist, so I said nothing. Then they came for the Social Democrats, but I was not a Social Democrat, so I did nothing. Then came the trade unionists, but I was not a trade unionist. And then they came for the Jews, but I was not a Jew, so I did little. Then when they came for me, there was no one left to stand up for me.'
But interestingly, people use the quotation to imply different meanings - even altering it to suit their purpose. When Time magazine used the quotation, they moved the Jews to the first place and dropped both the communists and the social democrats. American Vice-President Al Gore likes the to quote the lines, but drops the trade unionists for good measure. Gore and Time also added Roman Catholics, who weren't on Niemöller's list at all. In the heavily Catholic city of Boston, Catholics were added to the quotation inscribed on its Holocaust memorial. The US Holocaust Museum drops the Communists but not the Social Democrats; other versions have added homosexuals.
Gerard Killoran
London UK - Thursday July 03, 2003 at 9:16 am
Godfred Louis-JensenSteady on, old chap. Unless you're still trying to be witty, people might come away with the impression that you're losing it. Watch it, or you might find yourself second in line only to the "clucking goose" (ack: R. Desmond) for irritating rib-tickling. It's much better not to particularly care about running the risk of seriously offending everyone. Ask me. I know. ;-)
In any case, how dare you have the effrontery to construct a paragraph that is almost as long and difficult to parse (aka incomprehensible) as some of mine. ;-)
I agree with you (assuming this is what you're trying to say) that where the Gil-White article deviates from Racak, it comprises as big a load of dog-doo as you would not wish to encounter. At least stated there, but not emphasised is that amongst the first to conclude that Jenin was not a massacre were Palestinian Authority figures themselves. Hell, who can blame their initial response, I hear of an(other) Israeli incursion, and a town all but destroyed, and the first thing I think is "Pot. Mass. (Potential Massacre, much as I like to think when I hear Blair's name: Pot. Sui. - work it out). Gil-White's astonishing assertion that the mainstream media is biassed against Israel in favour of Palestine can only lead one to conclude that he long ago gave up monitoring CNN, and the most popular news channel in the US, the dreaded FOX TV, and a lot of et alias. It's also quite clear that he classifies all Palestinians who have the effrontery to resist even armed Israeli interlopers in a firefight as "terrorists": "Though Al Jazeera tries to glorify the Palestinian
And no hint that he might think for a second that the Palestinians would much prefer to fight a la Jenin, when their losses were "only" two to one against, the Israelis desisting for a change from using their largely US supplied Weapons of Mass Destruction, rather than body-bombers and street demonstrations versus aerial bombardment, tank shells, and murderous IDF snipers against children, when their loss ratio considerably degrades.
The Gil-White article also isn't really very great where it does manage to discuss Racak. Certainly not as worthy an effort as Soda & Tosic's. The best part is "Gerard" Israel's argument with the "soft spoken" HRW guy. Pity he didn't wallop him (ie: the former on the latter).
What I mean by "very early days in reference to the Soda article is that I read it years ago, among others related to Racak, I might add. This is what I meant when I said that (in some respects at least) Racak is "old hat". Regrettably, although the site states that the report would be updated as time goes on, it appears that this is not the case. On the other hand, I haven't bothered searching for Soda's own web-site, if he has one, so may be I'm pre-judging him. Given that this is an old article, your moaning about a non-working link there might induce some here to accuse you of spoiled brattishness. ;-)
All that said, the Soda report knocks the socks off Gil-White's treatment, in spite of its age. The guy actually did bother to find out some of the nitty-gritty stuff about forensics at a very early date (please don't query what this means). Also as far as I know, he and Tosic don't do this professionally full-time, or get paid to do it, unlike Gil-White and Mr. Israel. If that's the case, it's an admirable effort.
Moreover, although the Gil-White article is more light-weight in most respects, in no way does it appear to contradict Soda & Tosic. They agree about an official Ranta report, and the long-time absence or unavailability therof, so I'm confused as to what you mean when you say: " ... EU forensic expert's work on Racak dated 17 March, 1999 which was in fact a press release giving the Finnish pathologist's own "opinion" about the incident at Racak"
And your initial piss-take of the article is grossly unfair. Soda & Tosic make a slight mistake by taking the liberty of interpreting the ICTY indictment to imply indiscriminate shelling. I'm pretty sure the double-quotes around that word was (very clumsily) meant to imply that that was their interpretation, and nothing else. Hell, why should they deliberately try to misrepresent the Indictment? They cite the very copy of it that Jurist provides.
Dennis Revell
USA - Thursday July 03, 2003 at 9:18 am
html correction?
D R
USA - Thursday July 03, 2003 at 9:34 am
ClarificationDon't know what happened to the above, but it got screwed up somehow, and words even disappeared. With reference to Gil-White's ?"Road to Jenin"? article:-
... It's also quite clear that he classifies all Palestinians who have the effrontery to resist even armed Israeli interlopers in a firefight as "terrorists": "Though Al Jazeera tries to glorify the Palestinian terrorists, notice what this concedes: it was a fight." Who dares then to say that he's biassed, and EC generally, when it comes to Israel-Pal.? I do. And they are outrageously so. ...
Dennis Revell
USA - Thursday July 03, 2003 at 10:01 am
Sorry about the spelling errors in my above post. I am with those who feel that the moderator is doing us a favor and calling him/her names is like pissing into the wind.
Walter Trkla
Kamloops BC
Canada - Thursday July 03, 2003 at 10:17 am
To all participants I have been following for quite a while this forum and the more I get into it the more comes to me the notion that , the blindfold that covers the justices'eyes has long time been lost along with the scale (probably in custody somewhere in Washington) and the only thing that matters is how much WMD have you piled up so you can impose your "justice" . But not everything is lost , hopefully there are people like you that are ready to get to the real facts and find the truth regardless of simpaties or political ideas . Thanks for enlightening all of us regular citizens with your opinions and conclusions . By the way why you guys don suggest mr May to change his name to mr July the IV ?
Milan Prika
Panama
Panama - Thursday July 03, 2003 at 10:36 am
Dennis Revell,min tillid som tilforn!
gl-j
PS: You would not have a clue of course, as to what I mean by the above in Danish? It is however well meant, - and there may be someone in your surroundings who do understand the Danish of a truly "old chap".
The "idea" (if I may call it that)in putting that comment to your posting in Danish, is to point to the fact that "we" (the Danes!) as well as Serbs (and others) do have a language and a history (and hence an identity!) of our own - different from, but by no means inferior to the dominating Anglophonian mainstream stuff (if you could call it that).
Indeed I do take your point(s), - but let me add just one thing though: I translated President Milosevic's "Kosovo Polje Speech" (of 28 June 1989) into (proper!) Danish - and found, that it is convincingly at the level of speeches by Danish politicians which we "used to have" in this country (e.g. Viggo Hørup) - the qualties of whom maybe we do no longer deserve.
At the risk of giving "people" the impression that I'm losing it (or that I'm just trying to be witty) I'd take this opportunity to say:
Hail to the Chief (and to the people of Ýugoslavia, the FRY and Serbia for which mr. Milosevic stood up (da det gjaldt).
Godfred Louis-Jensen
Copenhagen
D E N MA R K - Thursday July 03, 2003 at 10:47 am
Gerard KilloranGerard, or may I call you Jared? ;-) Perhaps not. Bad idea. Sorry.
Very good analysis of Niemoller's famous saying. Misuses thereof. I wasn't aware of those variations. I wonder what it will read after 62,400 "repetitions"?
Kind of makes you wonder if anyone with a voice that's heard doesn't realise the plain simple fact that we're all pretty much the same in this effin' World and so doesn't have an unspoken or unadvertised agenda.
Of course, it's extremely unlikely that Roman Catholics would have been included in Niemoller's original words as ol' Adolf himself was Roman Catholic, and by some accounts a pretty devout one, at least at some stages in his life. Hence the "special relationship" between the NAZIs and the Vatican.
Indeed, the old ghoul was definitely still a firm believer at the time of the writing of Mein Kampf, and as far as I know to his much too late death, Hitler maintained a firm belief in the Christian religion, presumably the Roman Catholic one, as he was born.
With apologies for the source of the link above.
Dennis Revell
USA - Thursday July 03, 2003 at 11:05 am
Dennis Revell, Sir!REPOSTING the above (July 03, 2003 at 5:59 am)
HAVING READ the "Complete Analysis of the Incident at Racak" by Chris Soda, to which you kindly provided a link,
UNIMPRESSED still with that report "done in the very early days",
AGREEING absolutely that more than once "Milosevic Trial Discussion" postings such as those by "Jari Noussainen and others, notably Vera Martinovic, pretty much destroyed any purported validity, legality, even-handedness and morality of the ICTY",
SURPRISED that you would (re-)post then that ancient link,
WILLING though to be even-handed, and to apply a certain level of hyper-criticality and consequent dismissiveness to all other web-sites on the subject, and related subjects,
INCLUDING the Emperor's Clothes web-site, and in particular Professor Francisco Gil-White's piece "The Road to Jenin" in which the Professor likewise purports to be "analyzing everything" on "Racak",
SUGGESTING that in fact the very analysis behind the "questions" put by mr. Milosevic to witnesses of the Prosecution (maybe notably to Canadian general Maissonneuve (28-29 May, 2002), to Ambassador William Walker (11-12 June, 2002) and more recently to the first "court witness", Finnish Dr. Mary Helena Ranta (12 March this year), seems (to me anyway!) by far to be the best offered so far,
SEARCHING still for that final brief, conclusive and to-the-point report on the incident at the village of Racak in Kosovo on 15 January 1999,
CONSIDERING that a link given by Chris Soda in the above mentioned "Complete Analysis" no longer seems to work,
BEGGING for a new link (or any lead) to Dr. Ranta's socalled "report" on the EU forensic expert's work on Racak dated 17 March, 1999 (which was in fact no more than a press release giving the Finnish pathologist's own "opinion" about the incident at Racak),
ENVIOUS of your command of the English language (as well as of particulars of html)
I (still) remain,
Godfred Louis-Jensen
Copenhagen
D E N M A R K - Thursday July 03, 2003 at 12:08 pm
GodfredYes that's more comprehensible. Not to me really, as I'm used to parsing through interminable paragraphs, which are usually my own. ;-)
Well, as you intimated earlier, any proficiency in my command of the English Language is more than made up for in lack of proficiency in others.
I (still) remain, yours,
An Anglophobic Anglophone.
Dennis Revell
USA - Thursday July 03, 2003 at 12:47 pm
Ever(y)body "loves" to quote Martin Niemöller’s lines about moral failure, mr. Gerard Killoran is quoting someone for suggesting (1).Not me though! But were I to do anything like that, I might concentrate on elucidating the principle rather than specifics.
Read on:
First they'll come for x, but as I am not an x, I'll say nothing.
Then they'll come for y, but as I am not a y, I'll do nothing.
Then comes z, but I am not a z either.
And then they come for (you know!), but as I am certainly not a (you know!), I'll do little.
However when they come for me, I'll still expect everybody to stand up for me.
(While "you know" is obviously you, then x, w and z could be anybody in any order of sequence - except me of course).
(1) http://www.liv-coll.ac.uk/pa09/europetrip/brussels/neimoller.htm
Godfred Louis-Jensen
Copenhagen
D E N M A R K - Thursday July 03, 2003 at 6:45 pm
Maat, Themis and JustitiaThese Goddesses of ancient Egypt, Greece and Rome were symbols of their age representing the pillars of Justice. They have survived through several millennia to be embraced by modern civilisation. We can be sure that they embody civilisation’s abiding principles of Justice.
Maat was the Egyptian Goddess of Justice who weighed mankind’s deeds in her scales against the feather representing Truth.
Statues of Themis and Justitia usually carrying a sword and the scales of justice adorn our courts. A blindfold when worn represents the principle of Impartiality. A sword represents the inevitable fact that there can be no Justice without power to enforce the law.
With one notorious exception - the ICTY - courts in Europe and North America attempt to adhere to these principles. Judiciaries are independent of the executive branches of government. Truth is protected by the practice of punishing Perjury. Hearsay evidence is not admitted. Impartiality seeks to eliminate bias and prejudice so that all are treated equally under the law. Legal processes are transparent so that justice is seen to be done.
The ICTY is a perversion of a court of justice as demonstrated by the trial of Milosevic where it frequently ignores these principles. In abandoning truth and impartiality it carries us back thousands of years to a new dark age. Its very creation is illegal. It is an abortion of justice.
The court’s contempt for the Truth is manifest in the legion of witnesses who have perjured themselves with impunity and in those rendering hearsay evidence having had no direct contact with the events upon which they claim to have evidence. The innumerable secret sessions have not only hidden the truth but also have denied us the right to see that justice is being done.
But it is upon the principle of Impartiality that this court so obviously fails. Milosevic has been indicted for crimes in Kosovo simply because Albanians were killed and displaced - by whom it is not clear - during an Islamic terrorist incursion and Nato’s supporting aerial bombardment. There was no evidence at the time of the indictments, nor any presented since, that Milosevic issued orders to his security forces to commit crimes of war. People die in war that is why it is a crime to initiate war except in self-defence or with the specific authority of the UN Security Council.
During the past four years Carla del Ponte, the ICTY’s chief prosecutor has made promises that she would indict the KLA leaders for crimes committed under their command when she had evidence. A few days ago Hashim Thaci, a senior commander of the KLA was arrested in Hungary on an international warrant for acts of terrorism in Kosovo. It appears that through the offices of Steiner, Nato’s Viceroy in Kosovo, Nato demanded and secured his release while under threat by Thaci’s associates that Kosovo would be returned to a reign of terror if he was not released. The ICTY distanced itself from any involvement.
There is much evidence for Thaci’s acts of terror in Kosovo including his own reported admission of participating in the murder of policemen: Hence his arrest. But del Ponte has refused to indict because she claims not to have evidence. This is provably untrue.
Carla del Ponte’s own chosen witness K6 has given her the necessary evidence during the cross examination by Milosevic of the testimony presented by K6. I quote this evidence here from Page 6615 and subsequent pages of the transcripts of the Trial of Milosevic by The International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia:
From Page 6615 Line 1 Q. (Milosevic) An otherwise, a successful operation, according to KLA criteria, for which money was received, was if policemen were killed. That was considered successful. Is that true?
A. (Protected witness K6) According to them, every killing of policemen was a success … Correct.
Q. Because it says here, on page 22, paragraph 3, they were given 5.000 German marks for every successful operation, and "successful" meant, i.e., where police were killed. All right. Let's move on. Operations in 1998, and especially towards the end of 1998, were organised by Hashim Thaci, Sulejman Selimi, Rexhep Selimi, Jakup Krasniqi and Sokol Bashota; is that correct?
A. The attacks were coordinated and organised every time. That is correct.
Q. Of these individuals, right, the ones that I just mentioned?
A. Only -- yes, yes.
Q. All right. Where there were no police attacks, they organised their own attacks on peaceful villages; is that correct?
The witness K6 denies his own written statement and asks to go into secret session. Thus we do not know how this discrepancy was resolved.
From Page 6618 Line 14 Q. I'm going to ask you brief questions. Give me brief yes or no answers, please, before we go into checking them, and then we'll see. They would take some men from some houses and they would beat them unconscious. Is that right? Is that what you say? Yes or no.
A. Those who were members of the service or cooperated with the police.
Q. I'm talking about the KLA.
A. Yes. They did what I said they did.
Q. They burnt houses, didn't they?
A. [In Serbian] No, they didn't.
Q. You say they didn't?
A. [In Serbian] After the war. After the war, not now.
From Page 6619 Line 1 Q. Very well. You said they didn't. They attacked the Berisha family in the village of Dobra Voda; is that correct?
A. It is for a fact, yes.
Q. The KLA shot Leke Berisha at his house, was he was a teacher; is that right? Albanian teacher.
A. Yes.
Q. All right. And the same fate was one that was experienced by the Buzhalla family. Their house was completely burnt and the whole family taken out; right?
A. Yes.
Q. And the KLA and Bardhec Laci, who taught gymnastics in Klina, they did the same to his house. His house was burnt down too; right?
A. Yes. Normally, yes.
Q. They wanted to kill Leke Berisha and Bardhec Laci. So that's true, is it? And since you have relativised the answer to a series of questions, my series of questions, I'm going to read just this last paragraph for us to be able to grasp the entirety. So this is all contained in one paragraph:
"Until the end of 1998, all these operations were conducted at the direction and organised by people like Jakup Krasniqi, Sulejman Selimi, Rexhep Selimi, Hashim Thaci, and Sokol Bashota. In places where there were no police attacks, they organised their own attacks on peaceful villages. They would take some men from some houses and they would beat them unconscious. Sometimes they would burn houses, particularly houses of rich people. For example, in the village of Dobra Voda where they (From Page 6620 Line 1) attacked the Berisha family, they beat them and tried to kill them in the belief that they had all their wealth from the Serbs. These members of the KLA wanted to murder Leke Berisha who was an Albanian-language teacher. They burnt his house. Other villages that suffered the same fate were Cerovik where there was the Buzhalla family. They brought out all the family and burnt their house and told them they would do the same to them as they do for the Shka, an insulting expression for Serbs. The same happened to Bardhec Laci from Dobra Voda, who was a physical education teacher in Klina. They beat him up and intended to kill him because he did not allow members of the KLA to run a battle line through his house. They burnt his house. Laci and his family were saved only because of the intervention of other villagers."
Therefore, these are all the questions that I asked and linked up, and you gave a positive response and replied in the affirmative. Now, let's move on. Luz Buzhalla, his house was also burnt; is that correct?
A. It is not correct.
Q. And is it true they not only burnt his house but that Hashim Thaci drew lines on his chest with knives? He drew different drawings on his chest, using knives. Is that true or not?
A. It is not correct.
JUDGE MAY: Mr. Witness K6, why, if it's not correct, is it in your statement?
K6 asks for a private session which is refused but we don’t get an answer.
From Page 6621 Line 12 Q. "Among the other people who the KLA beat up were -- other persons beaten by the KLA include Luz Buzhalla from Cerovik who worked as a traffic policeman in Pristina. They burnt his house. They also drew lines on his chest with knives. Hashim Thaci did this. They said to him: `You used to work in the police, and that's what you did to people.'" I'm going to skip over the next portion where it says: "Fortunately from Luz [as interpreted] the journalist Pren Buzhalla from Zadar arrived and Pren was a friend of Rexhep Selimi and saved him from death." I read it in so that you don't accuse me of getting it wrong. And then you go on to say: "There were many such cases, particularly against wealthy people, involving their shops and homes. Their property was burnt and destroyed. This was done by the KLA persons I have mentioned. Sokol (From Page 6622 Line 1) Bashota is from Cerovik. The Selimi brothers have a house near the train station at Klina," and so on and so forth. That is how your statement reads. Is that correct and that there were much such cases as I quoted from your statement?
The witness requests a secret session so we don’t know the answer.
From Page 6623 Line 10 Q. Is it true that the KLA caused some incidents to provoke the police?
A. [In Serbian] Yes.
Q. And is it correct that the KLA burnt whole villages in order to conceal some of its own crimes? Yes or no.
A. No.
Q. According to your knowledge, there were many cases where the KLA killed some family members, and the families were not allowed to talk about this for fear that they would be killed. Is that correct or not?
A. It is correct.
Q. Now, as you challenged my previous question, let me just read out (From Page 6624 Line 1) the beginning of the one but last paragraph on page 24. It is one paragraph after the one that we read out a moment ago and it states the following: "The KLA would cause some of these incidents to provoke the police to attack and burn villages and thereby cover up some of their own crimes. There would be many cases where persons have had members of their family killed by the KLA, but they would not dare speak out for fear of being murdered." Mr. May, Mr. Robinson, and Mr. Kwon. I am drawing your attention to this fact, to this portion which says that witnesses were not allowed to speak out because they were afraid they would be killed by the KLA, and I would suggest that in light of this fact, that you assess the value of this witness which the opposite side is bringing forth.
Q. Now, is it true that other incidents have -- which they conducted have been attributed to the police? For example, bombs in the Pristina cafe. Is that true? Is that correct?
A. It is correct.
Q. All right. Persons like Hashim Thaci did none of these things because of the interest of people, of their own people, but rather for their own personal interests or the interests of certain individuals. Is that right?
A. They operated upon their own interests and the interests of Serbia.
From Page 6625 Line 2 Q. Are you referring to Hashim Thaci? That's who I'm asking you about.
A. [In Serbian] Yes. [In Albanian] Yes.
Q. And I would like to remind you of your sentence in the middle of this paragraph. And let me read the entire sentence: "The Serbs are capable of doing anything in the interests of their own people, while Hashim Thaci does these things out of personal interest or the interests of certain individuals who he appointed to his own government without asking the people or anyone else." Is that true or not?
A. Correct.
Q. Is it true that these people from the KLA are responsible for the murder of Ahmet Krasniqi who was the Minister of Defence in Bukoshi's government in exile? Is that true or not?
A. It is correct.
Q. Is it true that Ahmet Krasniqi was killed by Milaim Zeka? Is that true?
A. That I do not know.
Q. It says in your statement: "This was done by Milaim Zeka on the instructions of Rexhep and Sulejman Selimi." So this was done pursuant to the orders of Rexhep and Sulejman Selimi, and we know who they are. So pursuant to their orders, Milaim Zeka killed Ahmet Krasniqi. This is what it says in your statement at the bottom of this paragraph. (From Page 6626 Line 3) This group also has a list of people that should be murdered. Mr. May …
Q. Incidentally, the KLA undertook actions that had nothing to do with the alleged Serb offences on Albanian villages in Kosovo. However, occasionally this was done by the KLA simultaneously. Is that true?
A. The KLA would receive attacks where they expected the police to attack them and not offensive against the people.
Q. Can you please tell me, can this pertain to what you wrote in the last paragraph on page 24? This is the following paragraph after the one that I quoted, and it says so in the first sentence: "These actions of the KLA were undertaken unrelated to the offensives of Serbian forces on the Albanian villages in Kosovo. However, this was happening during the same time." Is that true or not?
A. Yes.
From Page 6627 Line 17 Q. Brothers Kryeziu, Albanians, together with their sons, near Kijevo, were killed by Hashim Thaci, Rexhep Selimi, and Jakup Krasniqi; is that right?
A. It is true.
From Page 6628 Line 2 Q. So these brothers Kryeziu, who, as you say, were killed by the people whose names I just read out, they had a gas station and they had alot of money; is that right? Was that the main motive for their murder?
A. Correct. I don't know.
Q. And in 1997, there was an attack on a police station in Glogovac, in Podujevo, that was also organised by the KLA; is that right?
A. Correct.
Q. So in that attack on Glogovac (in which policemen were murdered), in addition to Selimi brothers, Hashim Thaci participated as well; is that true?
A. Yes.
For these manifest acts of terror, revealed above in May’s court, any normal judge would have ordered Thaci’s arrest: Carla del Ponte would have issued indictments. But this is not an independent court this is Nato’s court and it obeys Nato’s commands.
Surely del Ponte believes her own prosecution witness K6 why else did she call him? Judge May and del Ponte’s denial of this evidence in their court records are acts of blatant dishonesty. Their failure to bring KLA Commander Hashim Thaci before the court to account for the crimes described above are a gross prejudice. Thus the court stands condemned for its denial of Truth and Impartiality: Pillars of Justice known even to the Ancients.
Peter Taylor
Herts/UK - Thursday July 03, 2003 at 8:03 pm
In this so-called court of Justice the Truth continues to be deniedAsked why chief prosecutor Carla del Ponte had not issued an indictment against Thaci, now the leading opposition politician in Kosovo, Batic said that she was seeking transcripts of conversation between the KLA leaders but that "the Albanians are afraid to testify".
The evidence exists in the courts own transcripts of the trial of Milosevic. Specifically in the testimony given by Carla del Ponte’s own Albanian prosecution witness K6 under cross-examination. He was not afraid to testify!
Who is responsible for the thousands of murder victims of the KLA and the hundreds of thousands of displaced people in Kosovo? What more evidence and how many more witnesses does the court need?
Peter Taylor
Herts/UK - Thursday July 03, 2003 at 9:18 pm
To Walter:I believe by saying "May might be Lucifer but he is NATO’s angel" you wanted to say something like: "Lucifer may be May but he is still NATO's angel".
I'm sorry if I am missing the point but I believe they will sooner execute May than Milosevic.
To all of you guys:
This is not the trial of the century or the mellennium, this is a trial for the mankind and it makes my flesh creep when I think Slobodan knows it.
To some of you guys:
It gave me the shivers when you were spaking about the irrelevance of ...
ivko rig
the - Thursday July 03, 2003 at 9:50 pm
Excellent work Peter. Some piece of fishing, and that's a great strike you made.I'll go fishing with you anytime. You seem to know all the best places. ... by memory too ... impressive ...
On the other hand, and in contrast, I haven't the slightest idea what point or points ivko rig is trying to make. Still, better luck next time.
Dennis Revell
USA - Thursday July 03, 2003 at 10:07 pm
This is what the Hague is really all about. The transcript has not yet arrived for June 30th, when General Imre Agotic testified, so I just listened and copied it down by myself. Here is the juicy portion:TAPUSKOVIC: I have a document which I received from the OTP, their honors can look at it, I have a sufficient number of copies, this is document: 'Weekly Assessment of Command of the ECMM' in Zagreb on the 14th of August, 1995 - #2668536858, and it says on page 3:
"Five weeks after Operation Storm, harassments continued and in some cases, killing of Serb inhabitants," which means several weeks after the Croatian forces had been deployed in the area, so "killings continued as well as constant looting, which is contrary to offical reports according to which law and order had been established. In fact this is continuing because of lack of interest on the part of the Croatian government to put an end to it."
Question (interpreter's insertion), are you familiar with this report of the ECMM.
MAY: (mumble) ...how you see your role? This seems to be just repeating what the accused is saying. YOU ARE NOT HERE TO REPRESENT SERBIA, you are here to assist the court. The accused is putting forth a defense, and there is no reason to add to it.
TAPUSKOVIC: Your honors, I am not trying at all to be a defense counsel for Mr. Slobodan Milosevic. I am trying to act in accordance with your instructions, to draw your attention to every matter which I consider to be important to you. I am focusing only on documents. I haven't tendered a single document myself. I am only focusing on documents I receive from the OTP, and drawing your attention to them. I'm not trying to defend anyone. I am just highliting matters about which it is up to you to rule: we have a witness here which you will believe or not believe - it is absolutely up to you. But, it is my duty to draw your attention to documents that I believe you need to devote your attention to, and that is all I am doing. I think they are important, and I think that when you have to make your determination, that you need to bear them in mind.
MAY (to Agotic): Is there anything else you want to say about it, General?
So, this is proof, right out of "Judge" May's own mouth, that the individual Milosevic is NOT on trial, and that it is really SERBIA which is on trial.
Which also explains why they are sacking Tapuskovic. He will end his "service" at the "tribunal" after the prosecution sets forth its case.
P M
USA - Friday July 04, 2003 at 12:28 am
Some news from the Defense:Dear friends, on behalf of SLOBODA/Freedom Association I am addressing you today because we are facing the most serious financial crisis since the beginning of the “trial” in The Hague which puts our work in serious risk. As you know, the financial situation of the defense team of Slobodan Milosevic always has been very critical and we were forced to work in difficult circumstances. Since we have spent all our resources and donations, we are now in a situation in which even the very existence of President Milosevic’s only legal assistant in The Hague is in question, not to mention the preparation of President Milosevics defense case.
From the start, the financial situation of abducted President Milosevic and his support team (The Freedom Association - The Yugoslav Committee) was much worse than the situation of any other Hague prisoner, whose lawyers recognize the "tribunal" and receive substantial financial backing by the “tribunal”. Our whole achievements in preparing the facts necessary for President Milosevic's struggle are based on voluntary work and submissions of Yugoslav patriots. Until now, our small funds were enough to cover the stay at The Hague of one legal assistant to President Milosevic. Our resources always were completely insufficient, but now, we don’t even know how to continue without urgent and substantial donations. After we used all available sources at home, we are now facing a new situation in which even the minimum of legal aid to President Milosevic is in serious danger!
The ongoing phase implies parallel work on the "prosecution case on Croatia and Bosnia" - preparing material for cross examinations, analysis of the whole passed part of the "process", preparing the Yugoslav and foreign witnesses for the "defense case", meaning to do interviews here and abroad, collecting documents, and finally covering a part of the expenses of the defense witnesses at The Hague. For this to be accomplished we would need a minimum of 100.000 EUR every month.
It seems that the Tribunal is trying to damage the defense and its funds in order to have a feast at the end.
Dan B
Canada - Friday July 04, 2003 at 12:32 am
MAY THE BLINDS COME DOWN......said Mr. Nice on 10 June, 2002 in prepairing for the arrival of protected witness K6.
Trial transcripts, Page 6580, Line 14.
Godfred Louis-Jensen
Copenhagen
D E N M A R K - Friday July 04, 2003 at 12:48 am
Dan B,
You write:
>Dear friends, on behalf of SLOBODA/Freedom Association I am addressing you today because we are facing the most serious financial crisis since the beginning of the “trial” in The Hague which puts our work in serious risk.I went to your page but I don't see any request for help. Say something concrete. How is this organized?
Nikole J
Canada - Friday July 04, 2003 at 12:58 am
Peter Taylor your analysis is superb.
Walter Trkla
Kamloops BC
Canada - Friday July 04, 2003 at 1:52 am
I meant to mention earlier, Walter, that so is you wit and irony. Some very funny and subtle posts from you.
Dennis Revell
USA - Friday July 04, 2003 at 3:51 am
UHURU - OUT OF AFRICAFollowing rumours that "the bench has appointed British lawyer Gillian Higgins" as an amicus curiae in the ICTY "trial" against Slobodan Milosevic" to replace Belgrade lawyer Branislav Tapuskovic, who (contrary to the remaining two amici, one of which is Briton Stephen Kay) will step down "when the prosecution completes its evidence" (1), I have been ascertaining from their list of "members" as of 12 May 2003, that Gillian Kay Higgins of Hampshire, United Kingdom is an "active full member" of the Association of Defence Councel practising before the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia (ADC-ICTY), - implying inter alia that she is deemed to "possess reasonable experience in criminal or international law" and is (already) assigned to a case before the ICTY.
The ADC-ICTY (of which mr. Tapuskovic is likewise a member) is presenting itself as being "not an organ of the ICTY", but an "independent professional association organized under the laws of the Netherlands, recognized as the Defence Counsel organisation serving the Tribunal pursuant to Rule 44 RPE." All of which does not exclude of course, that Gillian Kay Higgins "is not just a "British lawyer" (but is indeed) Amici Kay's daughter" - as suggested in postings by Uhuru Nyerere (July 01, 2003 at 9:50 pm and at 11:27 pm).
For all that I know the Presiding Judge may well be her uncle, - and the entire ICTY set up some form of extended family undertaking in the making?
(1) But may the Prosecution ever "complete its evidence"? Ref. posting from Dan B (July 01, 2003 at 10:07 am).
(2) http://www.adcicty.com/home.htm
Godfred Louis-Jensen
Copenhagen
D E N M A R K - Friday July 04, 2003 at 6:02 am
...AND OUT OF EUROPEAs if in support of Peter Taylor´s suggestion, that there is "much evidence for Thaci’s acts of terror in Kosovo including his own reported admission of participating in the murder of policemen", Justice Minister Vladan Batic has claimed that "The Hague Tribunal has over 40,000 pages of evidence against Thaqi" (1). Hence the Chief Prosecutor, Carla del Ponte's apparent unwillingness to indict the former KLA leader may not be conditioned solely by lack of evidence, - as indicated also by yesterdays news:
Following a meeting in Bruxelles (on Wednesday, 3 July 2003) between Javier Solana (2) and Democratic Party of Kosovo leader Hashim Thaqi, the EU has "expressed its desire to host a dialogue between Belgrade and Pristina this month."
According to agency BETA "the meeting between Solana and Thaqi was called so that the EU official could learn the latest developments regarding stabilisation of the province and the activities of transitional institutions.
Thaqi was also invited to learn...what the EU expects from local Kosovo leaders. Following the meeting, Thaqi told press that Kosovo should be given a "certain European status", although he failed to elaborate what was meant by the statement. He added that the Kosovo-Albanians were ready for open dialogue with Belgrade provided the remnants of Slobodan Milosevic's regime were removed from Serbian politics..."
(1) After the NATO occupation of Kosovo the former KLA leader was visiting Copenhagen, where Poul Nyrup Rasmussen was kindly addressing Hashim Thaci as (if he were) "Mr. Prime Minister".
(2) Javier Solana is Secretary General of the Council of the European Union and High Representative for the Common Foreign and Security Policy (CFSP). Prior to and during the armed aggression against the FRY in 1999 mr. Solana was the Secretary General of the 'New' NATO taking its first steps 'out of area'. Remember when on 28 January, 1999 - a fortnight after the incident at Racak pronounced a "massacre" - Javier Sana having concluded a "Statement of the North Atlantic Council" was saying, that:
"I would like to add for my own part that we are at a critical turning point in the Kosovo crisis. The next few days will be decisive. What we have seen in Yugoslavia during the past decade is that it is very difficult to stop internal conflicts if the international community is not willing to use force -- and when all other means have failed. We may be reaching that limit, once again, in the Former Yugoslavia.
The Contact Group meeting in London tomorrow will launch an important initiative. It will be fully backed by NATO's military capabilities. We are ready to act..."
http://www.nato.int/docu/pr/1999/p99-011e.htm
Godfred Louis-Jensen
Copenhagen
D E N M A R K - Friday July 04, 2003 at 7:38 am
Javier Solana has no problem dealing with the murderous leadership of the KLA while back at his own fatherland fascist (a Francoist) Aznar declared about a 100 Basque deputies illegal for political and democratic participation, banned a couple of Basque political parties and practically launched yet another campaign against Basque separatists. This wouldn't have been possible without the active blessing of the US government which always so mindful of keeping Wilson's vision of peoples rights to self determination alive had declared ETA a terrorist organization. The KLA obviously meets Wilson's criteria, no ETA.
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La - Friday July 04, 2003 at 9:51 am
Godfred Louis-Jensen,
"[...] Gillian Kay Higgins "is not just a "British lawyer" (but is indeed) Amici Kay's daughter" - as suggested in postings by Uhuru Nyerere [...]"
The British humanitarian organization, Christians Against NATO Aggression, (CANA) accused Stephen Kay of being an MI6 agent.
"[...] It is vital to get to the truth about the 1999 NATO war on Yugoslavia.
It may be that as a lawyer you don't have any regard for the truth, by which I mean you don't regard its pursuit as a priority.
But as a contemporary historian, and as a concerned citizen, worried at the waste of UK taxpayers' money spent funding your illicit judicial forum, I do.
My point is you have disqualified yourself by prejudice and bias from any further conduct of this case.
I have made a formal complaint to the Lord Chancellor about your conduct of the trial.
I refer as well to the failure of The Tribunal to provide medical facilities for the prisoner, nor access to family, nor access to lawyers, nor access to potential witnesses, such as myself, nor access to advisers, nor access to telephones and fax machines, nor access to the Internet, nor even access to a computer.
You give him inedible meals and you deny him exercise.
You are engaged in torture.
You sneer at the prisoner - you generally seek to demean him, you inflict indignities and gratuitous humiliation upon him.
I believe you and the other UK officials at the Court, including Steven Kay, the MI6 agent drafted in so the prosecution can also take over the defence, all of you have systematically conspired to deny the prisoner a fair trial, both on account of the numerous rulings you have made against him, and those you have not, particularly in respect to the conditions of his unlawful detention. [...]"
The letter addressed to the "judge" May was signed by CANA's Director William Spring, who after working for years as a journalist and being active in humanitarian work, became a Protestant priest in northern London. He is very familiar with political sceene in the UK, so I would pay attention to this detail about Stephen Kay.
When it comes to the Amici Kay's daughter and her fathers MI6 affiliation, ... , well, apples do not fall far from the tree.
D S
USA - Friday July 04, 2003 at 9:56 am
Godfred,
Click on Yahoo! Gruppi vive grazie alla pubblicità Vai a messaggio in order to get the letter.
D S
USA - Friday July 04, 2003 at 10:14 am
Nearly a week after , has anybody got any NEWS about the June 28 march AGAINST the ICTY in THE HAGUE?Come on, all these akternative medias, where are you all?
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La - Friday July 04, 2003 at 10:15 am
G C
SG - Friday July 04, 2003 at 12:47 pm
Those that think that this is a forum to give their phsychological problems a public airing please take your troubles elsewhere. Thanks and remember - It aint clever and aint funny. Take note Mr Rig.
TP Bumpstead
Angleterre - Friday July 04, 2003 at 1:24 pm
Gogol Charlemagne,Like youself I was unable to attend the demonstration at the Hague, June 28 2003 (Vidovdan)supposed to begin at 14:00 hrs by a manifestation at Churchill Plein 1, where a petition would be handed over to the "Tribunal", followed by a protest march to the Detention Center in Scheveningen (where a solidarity message would be addressed to Slobodan Miloševic), followed by a final manifestation.
I wonder too if this did in fact happen?
Well: The SLOBODA/FREEDOM ASSOCIATION, which was inviting people to demonstrate at the Hague could be contacted I suppose via:
E-mail SLOBODAVK@YUBC.NET, phone +381 63 8862 301 or fax +381 11 630 549
Vladimir Krsljanin, secretary of SLOBODA/Freedom Association as well as of the ICDSM, who together with a number of people (including Ramsey Clark) undersigned the petition demanding the abolishment of the "Tribunal" and the release of Slobodan Miloševic, might be asked to kindly inform us about the actual course of the demonstration?
The ICDSM web-site: http://www.icdsm.org/ or backup web-site: http://emperor.vwh.net/icdsm/ as well as the International Action Center web-site: http://www.iacenter.org) may also provide information on the demo.
Or you could contact Dr. Ljiljana Verner, Hannover by phone or fax at +49 51 1579 571 or via E-mail: ljverner@aol.com
or Sima Mraovitch, Paris, France by phone: +33 (0) 1-53621490
PS: This poster is also to suggest to the organisers to kindly provide the information required or relevant references at this JURIST web-site.
Godfred Louis-Jensen
Copenhagen
D E N M A R K - Friday July 04, 2003 at 1:29 pm
Thank you for your kind words Walter which I take as a great compliment in view of your own considerable contributions here.And thanks to you too Dennis and for your lively and humorous exchanges. However I must dispel the myth of an omnipotent memory which was never more than average and as a septuagenarian is fading fast. The secret is Google which enables one to plug into a vast cyberspace of knowledge. Yes knowing where to fish is a help.
On a serious note: How much longer can these leaders of the western world such as Blair maintain their dignity and integrity in the face of the continuing four-yearlong oppression they have imposed on Kosovo: Now ruled by known murderers given immunity from prosecution because a bloodbath is threatened should any of them be brought to trial?
It is my contention that a British Prime Minister with principles would have prevented the two illegal wars against Serbia and Iraq. A propos the latter event proof is now emerging that even the first of the two secret service Dodgy Dossiers was tampered with by the Blair government.
(-: Those interested in the occult may like to ponder the significance of the fact that, given a few wild cards, an anagrammatical translation of Blair’s name is B***** liar :-)
Peter Taylor
Herts/UK - Friday July 04, 2003 at 2:09 pm
Nikole J,You write, that >I went to your page but I don't see any request for help. Say something concrete. How is this organized?<
Assuming that by "your page" you mean that of SLOBODA/FREEDOM ASSOCIATION (1), you may find a concrete FUND RAISING APPEAL at the main page in English (2).
(A parallel main page in Serbian (3) seems to be currently inaccessible however? The English page "ABOUT US" does not appear to be accessible either, - hence your request for "something concrete" is quite reasonable).
In addition to what is contained in the above posting from Dan B (date) the fund raising appeal goes on to explain, that the "Belgrade regime, in difference to behavior of any normal country and despite the Constitutional obligation to help its citizens in legal need abroad, and in difference even to Croatia and both entities of Bosnia, is not only leaving us (4) without any financial support nor access to state archives, but is producing obstacles for the defense of President Milosevic at every step."
"That's why we need organized fund raising actions and serious donations from abroad," Vladimir Krsljanin, International Coordinator is claiming on behalf of SLOBODA/FREEDOM ASSOCIATION, urging you to "contact us if any further clarification is needed (4)."
(1) http://www.sloboda.org.yu/
(2) http://www.sloboda.org.yu/engleski/indexeng1.html
(3) http://www.sloboda.org.yu/index1.html
(4) FREEDOM ASSOCIATION, Rajiceva 16, 11000 Belgrade, Yugoslavia. e-mail: vlada@sps.org.yu
Godfred Louis-Jensen
Copenhagen
D E N M A R K - Friday July 04, 2003 at 2:21 pm
I will post details when I am able to access my hotmail account.
Dan B
Canada - Friday July 04, 2003 at 5:18 pm
This is copy-paste from an e-mail from Belgrade:URGENT FUND RAISING APPEAL DUE TO THE TREMENDOUS WORSENING OF THE FINANCIAL SITUATION OF THE DEFENSE-TEAM OF SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC
Because the seriousness of the situation leaves no time, we have to ask you to donate as much as you can immediately! To secure our future activities, we also have to reach out with our appeal to more people. We rely on you to spread this appeal and to help the collection of further donations. Following, you will find a more specific description of the situation which you are free to use to help the urgent fundraising campaign.
THE DEFENSE AT THE HAGUE CAN’T CONTINUE WITHOUT YOUR AID - SAVE MILOSEVIC’S STRUGGLE FOR THE TRUTH - SAVE OUR HOPE!
Our contacts: SLOBODA/FREEDOM ASSOCIATION Rajiceva 16, 11000 Belgrade, Serbia and Montenegro Telephone: +381 63 8862301 Fax: +381 11 630 549 E-mail: slobodavk@yubc.net
Dan B
Canada - Saturday July 05, 2003 at 12:00 am
Some great work going on here, folks.Keep up the good work.
Btw, Peter, I didn't mean to imply that you remembered K6's testimony in detail, but rather that something obviously clicked in your memory to cause you to ferret deeper. Yea, I know about the power of Google, otherwise I wouldn't be here. That's how I stumbled on this mess, quite a long time ago now. I'm also aware about the suspicions surrounding "Google".
I watched virtually the whole of the KosovO section live (no mean feat for someone living in the Etats Unis - ack: TP Bumpstead), and I'm afraid the same thing didn't click with me. It was a while ago, now of course, but presumably that same factor also applied to you.
I concluded from the KosovO section that Milosevic had won, the case should be dismissed, and that what would follow in the other section, and this was pretty accurate, would just be more of the same old same-as same-as. I also concluded that they would find Milosevic guilty of a selection from the 66? charges, come what May.
I wonder if it might be an idea to write a letter to *"la Puttana del Hague", *"La Puttana del NATO", really, putting all of Peter's points to del Monte (she really should be tinning peaches, and not involved in legal affairs at all), just showing what a load of hogwash her spokeman's statements are (was that ?Batic??), pointing out her gross immorality, subterfuge and lies, and getting all and sundry to co-sign it, including Chris Black, ICDSM, Sloboda etc, including those sympaticos from the Jurist forum? It could be made an open letter, including also all the points made by Godfred, on the 40,000 pages.
I wonder if the Kay's or anyone they're "really friendly" with are on "The List", alleged by the criminal British Government to have been released by that most admirable ex-MI6 operative Richard Tomlinson, he who broke the fact that MI6 plotted to assassinate Milosevic? (Also see this).
Tomlinson denies releasing "The List", and I've seen talk alleging that the Brit. Govt. released it, containing only the names of blown or retired MI6 operatives, not of much further use to them, in order that they could pin something serious on Tomlinson. Tomlinson in turned threatened to publish a real list if they didn't stop harassing him.
So apart from a lot more MI6 operatives, all those decent Brits. who are left now have to do is get most of the armed forces on their side, and Blair is toast. ;-)
Dennis Revell
Etats Unis - Saturday July 05, 2003 at 12:03 am
*"la Puttana" - the name given to Carla del Monte by the Italian Mafia.
D R
Etats Unis - Saturday July 05, 2003 at 12:05 am
Puttana means whore.
D R
Etats Utis - Saturday July 05, 2003 at 12:31 am
I neither wanted to be clever nor funny, Mr/Ms Whoever, I was just delighted by some things and disturbed by other things said in the same peoples' posts in the second half of June, and had to say so. Still didn't want to argue, for the lack of time, and will.
Apathy?
Maybe.
Psychological problems?
Give me a break.
Psycho logical problems are the ones that have been giving me a headache since 1987.
I'll explain. Everybody thought Milosevic was the leader of Serbian people. Not me. Could be but I believed he served much better as the leader of some other peoples. Now those interested take Freud's short text "Group psychology and the analysis of the ego", substitute negated leader for leader and you will know what I am talking about.
Why do I think that this is a forum to give my phsycho logical problems a public airing?
Just for one reason: no matter how naive it sometimes can get or how protective, me being no exeption, or how demagogic, this is a place which reminds me that there are some remnants of human dignity. Who all the honours go to?
ivko rig
this mortal coil - Saturday July 05, 2003 at 4:45 am
Which is ironic, really, shows the great lack of finesse of the Mafia, I guess; as actual whoring is definitely one "profession" that Carla could never have made a living at.
Dennis Revell
Etats Unis - Saturday July 05, 2003 at 5:07 am
Initially the troika had decided to have two trials, one for Kosovo and another for the rest. Under those circumstances it would have been easier for them to end Kosovo probably before reaching its end. But Carla del Ferry-boat, (as her name was translated by some Dutch smart ass) did not like it, appealed to the second floor of the ICTY, the judges changed hats and she won making it the longest and most absurd trial I ever remember. But lets put it all into perspective: the United Security Council has no right or power to legislate any thing, that is the role of the General Assembly which created the International Criminal Court.
Not bad enough? Apparently not, Guantanamo is going to set the new standards of international law. As Rosa Luxemburg clearly said it:
Socialism or Barbarism We got plenty of the latter.
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La - Saturday July 05, 2003 at 5:18 am
Ashdown "running Bosnia like a Raj" says thinktank: report
Apparently the previous Gauleiter was a saint.
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La - Saturday July 05, 2003 at 7:56 am
Gogol I understand about 400 people attended the Vidovdan rally in the Hague, more than half of them coming from Germany.You can see pictures of the rally at the following URLs:
http://mona-lisa.org/milosevic/
http://homepage.mac.com/jbeentjes/Demonstraties/PhotoAlbum30.html
Michael Thomas
London
UK - Saturday July 05, 2003 at 8:48 am
WHY, IF IT'S NOT CORRECT, IS IT......in your statement? (Judge May in the Hague, 10 June 2002).
Yes, Peter Taylor's superb analysis (July 04, 2003 at 12:58 am) - based on a mere fraction of the testimony by protected witness K6, certainly deserves the attention of the Trial Chamber as well as of the ICTY "Second Floor". May we go even higher?
Peter Taylor's analysis appeared to me entirely satisfying, - like a little dish prepared by the master cook, yet purely from ingredients available. Nothing fishy about it, Dennis!
May I add tribute however also to the Presiding Judge, Honorable May, for making it all possible by raising that incredibly reasonable question:
JUDGE MAY: Mr. Witness K6, - why, if it's not correct, is it in your statement? (1).
While the troubled witness was attempting to derail Mr. Milosevic's cross-examination by asking for yet another "private session", which was flatly denied him by a Judge insisting on having "asked him a question" it is also true, that we, the public - or socalled International Community - were given a very clear promise of clarification in the not too distant future (in less than a 100 days, that is!):
JUDGE MAY: No! Let's -- go on, Mr. Milosevic. We'll get an explanation in due course! (2)
In due course? I'd remember that!
When soon afterwards the wittness once more was pleading for time-out (or "private session") the Prosecutor, nice- and ingeniously ahead of everybody else (except maybe Mr. Milosevic?), made the Trial Chamber confer by suggesting that he already saw the point:
MR. NICE: Your Honour, I can see at the beginning of the next paragraph (of K6's written statement) what may be troubling the wittness... (3)
(1) Trial transcripts, Page 6620, Line 22
(2) Trial transcripts, Page 6621, Line 8-10
(3) Trial transcripts, Page 6622, Line 10-11
PS: While I would entirely agree that these ICTY proceedings for all their bloody nonsense have in fact been providing ample reason for bringing people like the former KLA terrorist, Hashim Thaci (and others!) to justice, I am much less certain about Peter Taylor's note on the fate of dignity and integrity on part of "these leaders of the Western world such as Blair" (who instrumented this war mess in the first place).
However with regard to mr. Bush, I'll venture to predict that the U.S. President - more Western than most - will manage to go on only for as long as it takes for a decent afterthought to travel across the United States - to that Eden at the end of the Oregon Trail, maybe (4).
Yesterday on Independence Day - dressed casually in a blue, open-collar shirt in front of a "heartily cheering" crowd of Air Force members and their families at the Wright-Patterson Air Force Base outside Dayton - the current U.S. Commander-in-Chief was still insisting, that "deposed leader Saddam Hussein harbored weapons of mass destruction!" (5).
"Saddam Hussein posed a threat to the world," Bush stated.
Well, that may not be correct of course! But why, Mr. President, - why, if it's not correct, was it in your statement?
(4) In Oregon (of which I know but little except for works by architect Pietro Belluschi and the once dissenting voice of Senator Wayne Morse), in a capital named Salem they proudly sport a theatre called Elsinore - "after the castle in Shakespeare's Hamlet" (Sic! - there in something rotten even in the State of Oregon).
(5) http://edition.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/07/04/bush.independence/index.html
Godfred Louis-Jensen
Copenhagen
Denmark - Saturday July 05, 2003 at 9:40 am
Michael Thomas
Many thanks for the pictures links and the news.
Es leben Karl Marx und Lenin!
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La - Saturday July 05, 2003 at 11:07 am
DennisYou are almost right about my memory trigger. What in fact I remembered of the dim and distant past, probably of 1999, was reading a report that Thaci had boasted of his involvement in the murder of policemen. It was while searching for this report that Google came up with the testimony of K6 under cross-examination.
BELGRADE, July 3 (Tanjug) - Spokesperson for the Chief Prosecutor of the war crimes tribunal, Florence Hartmann, said on Thursday that the evidence the Belgrade authorities have conveyed to the tribunal, concerning persons from the Liberation Army of Kosovo (KLA), including Hashim Thaci, is not sufficient for the issuing of indictments against any person mentioned in the documents.
As demonstrated by the statement above the ICTY is determined to ignore the evidence. The simple fact that casualties occurred during the operations of Serbian security forces - not necessarily caused by war crimes - was enough for the court to indict Milosevic and relevant senior officials: The facts that thousands have been murdered and hundreds of thousands displaced under the command of the KLA does not warrant the same treatment?
Not only does the court have the undeniable facts of the crimes it also has the evidence provided by the Belgrade authorities. To this may be added the evidence in the court’s own records given under oath by at least one of its protected prosecution witnesses, K6. If the report of Thaci’s boast can be tracked down we also have a confession. No legitimate court could ignore such evidence.
You and I know that the KLA leadership will never be indicted for the murders they committed in Kosovo because not only will this weaken the case against Milosevic but also Blair and his associates would thereby be implicated.
However if this report, which I am certain I read, can be tracked down then the mounting tide of evidence would cause all informed, civilised and fair-minded people to regard with contempt all those pushing this farce at The Hague.
Although I have searched for it many times I have not been able to find again the report that triggered my memory. Does anyone here know the source of the report that Hasim Thaci boasted of murdering policemen?
Peter Taylor
Herts/UK - Saturday July 05, 2003 at 11:39 am
Thanks for the downloads of the June 28th demostrations at the Hague. Very heartening except for the misguided carrying the 'Bush instead of Milosevic' sign.They were at the wrong rally. Iraq is not Serbia, it is the opposite. Bush is not Clinton, who assisted NATO in the final subjugation of Serbia to the to the then current EU 'axis'.
J, P
USA,Wis - Saturday July 05, 2003 at 11:57 am
Serbia to snub UN court and try Thaqi | 18:07 July 5th 2003| APBELGRADE -- Friday -- In a snub to the U.N. war crimes tribunal, Serbian Justice Minister Vladin Batic said today that Serbia would put a former ethnic Albanian rebel leader on trial in a Serbian court.
Hashim Thaqi, president of Kosovo's leading opposition party, the Democratic Party of Kosovo, and a former commander of the Kosovo Liberation Army, will be tried in a Belgrade court on charges of committing atrocities against ethnic Serbs during the 1998-99 conflict, Batic said.
"We will try him in absentia," the Christain Democrat leader explained. "Then, we will see how the international community will react."
Batic accused The Hague Tribunal of showing anti-Serb bias for having failed to indict Thaqi, saying: "There are obviously some political reasons, rather then legal, as to why he is not being indicted".
Batic said that the Serbian government had handed over to The Hague Tribunal some 40,000 pages of witnesses testimonies, photographs, video and audio tapes and other evidence to back an indictment against Thaqi. He claimed that the evidence is enough to charge him.
http://www.b92.net/english/news/index.php
Ian Davis
Waterloo
Ontario, Canada - Saturday July 05, 2003 at 12:09 pm
JP,What do you expect from forriners?
I guess they just thought they'd be a little more current and go with the mass-murdering lying war-criminal du jour.
Dennis Revell
Vereinigt Staaten von Amerika - Saturday July 05, 2003 at 12:18 pm
Re, Thaci:http://www.wsws.org/articles/1999/jun1999/kla-j29.shtml
http://www.infotrad.clara.co.uk/antiwar/kla-usa.htm
Ian Davis
Waterloo
Ontario, Canada - Saturday July 05, 2003 at 2:22 pm
And the happy couple is:http://www.tetova.de/modules/myalbum/photo.php?lid=222
Ian Davis
Waterloo
Ontario, Canada - Saturday July 05, 2003 at 2:57 pm
Tell me, is that guy on the right a known War-Criminal as well? ;-)
Dennis Revell
Etats Unis - Saturday July 05, 2003 at 4:33 pm
Gogol!Even at the risk of being called the "nicky-picky" or whatever:
Es LEBE Karl Marx und Lenin! (Das is doch der Konjunktiv!)
And Dennis Revell: VEREIGNIGTE Staaten Amerikas! Mehrzahl, bitte! Mehrzahl - or else there would be little reason for uniting!
What is wrong with you guys? The FRY in 1999, Afghanistan 2001, Iraq 2003 - every second year the U.S. seem to be messing up sort of everything! Langtbortistan 2005?And you cannot even spell the name of "Rebecka"! Where are we heading for these days...
PS: Dennis! I Google-found the Ranta "report" dated 17 March 1999 - which Mr. Milosevic in his cross-examination of the Finnish pathologist on 12 March this year was correctly characterizing as a "press statement" merely offering her "own" opinion. Heh, - it now makes for interesting reading in the light of what has happened since (I'd never invite Helena Ranta to "perform an autopsy" on any body that I cared for or even knew. Or even to take off my shoes...)!
I also read the Tosic/Soda-report, - concluding that while it is certainly listing a series of fine observations it was indeed an early piece of work (surely from the previous Century), - and I was right in my first impression: The point is, that the analysis underlying Mr. Milosevic's current reasoning is quite superior to what else I have encountered (I'm sorry, Mr. Rig!).
That of course is reassuring, - the only worry being that May, Nice et Al. Inc. hacks up a lot of it, spreading all on 20.999 pages or more (for the scrutiny of which you need to be an Googling septuagenarian Anglophoniac).
Am I losing it! I did sense Dennis suggesting that we write a letter to "del Hague", some kind of piece en conjunto? I'd second that idea...
Peter Taylor for secretary...
"Those that think that this is a (Anglo)forum..." - well, forget it (July 04, 2003 at 12:47 pm).
Ivko Rig says: "Everybody thought Milosevic was the leader of Serbian people". Nope, not me - I realized, that he was serving as the President of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. I respect him for that, and thought, that he did very well in the circumstances. I still think so.
Anyway we would be talking about the Serbs, wouldn't we?
Like JP, Gogol I am grateful for Michael Thomas' link to the June 28th documentation (but I do find the 'Bush instead of Milosevic' sign quite allright in view of the sequence of orchestrated disasters listed above).
And where is IAC? EC? SLOBODA/Freedom etc. ?
Lastly: What would stop Hashim Thaci, Carla del Ponte, Tony Blair, Berlo Corrupzioni et Al. from followihg our discussion?
Achtung! Feind hört mit!
Godfred Louis-Jensen
Copenhagen
D E N M A R K - Saturday July 05, 2003 at 4:52 pm
"...the KLA leadership will never be indicted for the murders they committed in Kosovo because...".Well, - let's see about that!
PS: Anybody remembering mr. Kelmendi calling for NATO air strikes? I do!
Godfred Louis-Jensen
Copenhagen
D E N M A R K - Saturday July 05, 2003 at 6:47 pm
The 'enemy' is the ICTY, a 'sibling' of the ICC. Bush 'unsigned' from the ICC and is down on 'old Europe', ie Germany and France. An 'enemy' of my enemy may not be a friend but in this case Bush IMO is 'mute' re the evidence being brought to prosecute Milosevic.Again, WWII, FRY, AFG, Iraq is like saying +,-,+,+.
Milosevic fought the Islamists in Kosovo. Clinton enabled them. Bush is fighting the Islamists in Afghanistan and Iraq. Other countries may be next, all totally justified. The scourge brought on by the Islamists will be checked and obliviated. Right now, Bush is the General in this 'world' saving efford. But there are kooks everywhere, including the ranks of the Hague demostrators carrying an idiodic sign.
J, P
USA,Wis - Saturday July 05, 2003 at 7:37 pm
The Bush Administration continues to pay US$100 million per year to the ICTY. Not exactly a sign of disinterest. Further they still have hopes of putting to trial the Iraqi leadership. The budget for this is there since last year of the Clinton era!
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La - Saturday July 05, 2003 at 7:42 pm
Milosevic fought the Islamists in KosovoBLOCKQUOTE>
No more legends please. Find any reference in the trial's transcripts to Islamism in Kosovo.
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La- Saturday July 05, 2003 at 7:43 pm
G C
SG - Saturday July 05, 2003 at 7:43 pm
- Saturday July 05, 2003 at 7:47 pm
Bush Vows Pre-Emptive Attacks Against Enemies
That is called agression W!
Gogol Charlemagne
SG - Saturday July 05, 2003 at 7:51 pm
"Without America's active involvement in the world, the ambitions of tyrants would go unopposed, and millions would live at mercy of terrorists. With Americans' active involvement in the world, tyrants learn to fear, and terrorists are on the run,"
Judging by the number of victims do to terrorism today I think W is a little out o touch, just a little,
Gogol Charlemagne
SG - Saturday July 05, 2003 at 8:45 pm
Its good to see the Serbian government showing some spine by announcing it will put Hashim Thaci on trial for acts of terror following the refusal of the ICTY to accept the evidence to do so. See report in the reference above given by Ian.If what follows is not a admission of guilt I don’t know what is:
Thaci, who is believed to be 31 years old, helped lead student protests 10 years ago against Yugoslav leader Slobodan Milosevic's abolition of Kosovo's autonomous status. He was then a history student at Pristina University. Four years later (1993), he founded the UCK, a movement that remained virtually unknown until two years ago, when it began claiming credit for attacks on Serbian police.
In the UK Blair’s government hunts down terrorists who attack and kill our police: even though an enquiry has found our police have colluded with paramilitary forces in the murder of supporters of the Nationalist movement in Northern Ireland. Why should Blair have the opposite policy in Kosovo?
No evidence? Carla del Ponte contact Chris Hedges
The latter faction, aided by the Albanian secret police and led by Hashim Thaci, gained ascendancy “as the conflict evolved” through intimidation and, at times, assassination. Hedges called Thaci “essentially a local thug, not very bright, easily manipulated”-and widely feared … Following the LDK’s defeat of Thaci’s Democratic Party of Kosovo in the October elections came “the murder and intimidation of Rugova supporters and pretty clear evidence that Thaci and his followers, while maybe not taking the formal reins of power, have no intention of giving up their very real grip on power.” Writes Hedges and goes on “we’ll see an expansion of the conflict, a clear destabilization of the political situation inside Kosovo, as Thaci uses the tactics that he’s always used - intimidation, threats and murder to thwart his rivals.” The next year or two, he concluded, “are going to bring us some very difficult and troubling times inside Kosovo.”
More from Chris Hedges who quotes western diplomatic sources. Does the ICTY not recognise the evidence of western diplomats?
A chronology of admitted murderous KLA attacks. More evidence for del Ponte to ponder on top of the some two to three thousand killings and hundreds of thousands of displaced people since June 1999 when Serb security forces were supplanted by Nato.
Peter Taylor
Herts/UK
