 MILOSEVIC TRIAL DISCUSSION ARCHIVE |
| JURIST >> LEGAL NEWS - WORLD LAW >> Discussion >> Milosevic Trial Discussion Archive |
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Former Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic is on trial for war crimes in the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia at The Hague. This marks the first time a head of state has been personally prosecuted before an international criminal court.
Is Slobodan Milosevic getting a fair trial?
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- discussion archive
- Sunday July 06, 2003 at 12:17 am
There are hot spots all over, ie Palestine, Chechnya, Bosnia, and Kosovo. It seems to me that they all involve Islamists 'shooting' and 'bombing' the governing authorities in order to peel off, do a little ethnic cleansing and become a fanatic theocratic 'state', and expand ME world dominance. They even have said as much.Well, W has taken them on, where Clinton , old Europe and 'victims' have and are failing. We planted a presence right in the middle of it all, starting in Afghanistan and Iraq. They will be beaten from the inside out.
I did hear Milosevic say in his opening statement that the US goes half way around the world to fight terrorists and he (Milosevic) is faulted for fighting terrorists in his own backyard.
J, P
USA,Wis - Sunday July 06, 2003 at 1:01 am
Is that what triggered Peter's memory?HASHIM THACI ADMITS RACAK FRAUD (1)
Pristina, March 7th, 2000 - (According to) the Voice of Russia...the leader of the Albanian terrorists in Kosovo, Hashim Thaci...(recently)...told foreign reporters...how...KLA committed crimes in order to...provoke western military intervention in Yugoslavia.
...Thaci...(admitted that)...frequent attacks on Serbian police and YA troops...were...calculated to challenge the(se) legitimate security forces, whose response...(would subsequently be)...declared a repressive act and (in) violation of human rights.
...according to Thaci...the Albanian terrorists used...civilians as human shields. That...led to civilian casualties...
...(specifically on)...the incident in the village of Racak...(Thaci)...(confirmed)...that the KLA...(had)...committed the murder of four Serbian policemen...in order to provoke...(a) reaction. Indeed (what) followed, was...a legitimate (police) operation against the Albanian extremists...stronghold in Racak.
Thaci admitted that...KLA members...(who were) killed in the clashes in the area of Racak...were (moved so as to be) discovered (later).
The alleged massacre...was (set up) on the basis of...discovered bodies. Even though...international...experts...established that the bodies (were) KLA extremists...NATO...blamed Belgrade...for the killing of...Albanian farmers from Racak. That was the first in a series of accusations...deceiving the international public, i.e. preparing...for the NATO aggression on Yugoslavia...
(1) http://aaart.tripod.com/thaci.htm
PS: I've attempted to "sober" the original version - which needs confirmation of the source etc. anyway.
Subsequently we put it to Hashim Thaci: Is that right or is that not right?
PSS: I've been too busy to even notice J,P shortlisting "hot spots all over" etc...
Godfred Louis-Jensen
Copenhagen
D E N M A R K - Sunday July 06, 2003 at 1:01 am
Is that what triggered Peter's memory?HASHIM THACI ADMITS RACAK FRAUD (1)
Pristina, March 7th, 2000 - (According to) the Voice of Russia...the leader of the Albanian terrorists in Kosovo, Hashim Thaci...(recently)...told foreign reporters...how...KLA committed crimes in order to...provoke western military intervention in Yugoslavia.
...Thaci...(admitted that)...frequent attacks on Serbian police and YA troops...were...calculated to challenge the(se) legitimate security forces, whose response...(would subsequently be)...declared a repressive act and (in) violation of human rights.
...according to Thaci...the Albanian terrorists used...civilians as human shields. That...led to civilian casualties...
...(specifically on)...the incident in the village of Racak...(Thaci)...(confirmed)...that the KLA...(had)...committed the murder of four Serbian policemen...in order to provoke...(a) reaction. Indeed (what) followed, was...a legitimate (police) operation against the Albanian extremists...stronghold in Racak.
Thaci admitted that...KLA members...(who were) killed in the clashes in the area of Racak...were (moved so as to be) discovered (later).
The alleged massacre...was (set up) on the basis of...discovered bodies. Even though...international...experts...established that the bodies (were) KLA extremists...NATO...blamed Belgrade...for the killing of...Albanian farmers from Racak. That was the first in a series of accusations...deceiving the international public, i.e. preparing...for the NATO aggression on Yugoslavia...
(1) http://aaart.tripod.com/thaci.htm
PS: I've attempted to "sober" the original version - which needs confirmation of the source etc. anyway.
Subsequently we put it to Hashim Thaci: Is that right or is that not right?
PSS: I've been too busy to even notice J,P shortlisting "hot spots all over" etc...
Godfred Louis-Jensen
Copenhagen
D E N M A R K - Sunday July 06, 2003 at 1:15 am
Well, copy for Peter - and one for Hashim Thaci...J,P: What about Chiapas? Colombia? Northern Ireland? Tibet?
As for the bit from the "opening statement": Go back and read (as Rebecka would say) - please!
Godfred Louis-Jensen
Copenhagen
D E N M A R K - Sunday July 06, 2003 at 4:29 am
Godfred:Thanks for correcting what no doubt will become a plurality of foreign language mistakes on my part.
I may be wrong, but I detect a hint that perhaps you think I'm Americain. Nope. Je suis Anglais, which is itself hardly something to write home about in the present circumstances. Mind you, Nationality is pretty much BS, to be retained only for practical reasons.
It's always been beyond me how anyone can have the lack of sense to be proud of something they had absolutely no control of, or any say in. I'm thinking in particular, of course, of all those "proud to be Americans", but the sentiment applies generally. One of the reasons I like Einstein so much - he couldn't make his mind up! German - Swiss - German - whatever (I lost track) - finally American, about at least he had the good sense to say was a mistake.
I've been here long enough to naturalise, but in the early halcyon days before a few scales fell off my eyes, I decided I couldn't honestly sign up to all that 2nd Amdmnt. BS, which at greater than 30,000 US firearms deaths / annum perhaps sees more Americans per year shaking off their mortal coil than the number of "aliens" (aka foreigners) the US so far seems to manage to murder over the same period. In fact, I've pondered the question here before as to which years, and how much by, the per-capita Balkans (war-time) death-rate exceeded (or didn't) that in the US.
Of course that 30,000 + US firearms deaths / annum itself pales into insignicance in comparison to the millions Worldwide dying each year from malnutrition and preventable diseases because of the West's, primarily the US's, imposition of the global "free" market economic "system" from hell.
But the main reason for not naturalising is that I couldn't face the pain of having half my brains sucked out of my nose through a straw. Which reminds me:
JP:
Iraq under Saddam Hussein was never Islamist; it was a secular state. Ditto Palestine (Authority), in spite of the hogwash those from Emperor's Clothes now try to feed people. Arafat's wife is Christian, so that would normally put him on the death-list of Islamists. Mind you, I'd never choose a leader myself who looked so much like that air-head Ringo Starr, unless the alternative was George W. Bush or Tony BLiar. The fact that the Pals. used or misused the brainrot caused by a combination of youthful testosterone over-production combined with religious fundamentalism to source their "military" wings is neither here nor there. The US does as much.
Of course, there's now a fair chance that Iraq will become an Islamic clerics' state, now the Iraqi Shi'ites are getting above themselves. This is something I agree with EC on. Americans should remember Shi'ites: The Ayatollah Khomeini was a Shi'ite, even more so minus the 'i, and the e.
Carter, Reagan and Bush I created and/or maintained the Afghani religious fundamentalists to put the boot in against the Russians. The US also previously, if not even now more covertly, supported the Chechnyan terrorists, as well, of course, those in the FYR.
Don't expect us to fall for the old trick of "it wasn't us (Repubs. or Democraps), it was them (Democraps or Repubs)"; in all these cases it was Americans. Otherwise the US would have to accept the argument from the people World-wide that its military has murdered in recent years (or rather their surviving relatives) that it "wasn't us, it was ... pick your Hitler du jour".
With the possible exception of the recent, if not still ongoing, Iraqi slaughter, there would have been no difference in US foreign policy in any other of the places you mention, whichever pathetic apology for a Corporate media bought-and-paid for mainstream US "Party" was in power. In the case of KosovO, had a Republian Administration held sway, Albanian-American Terrorist-In-Chief Joe DioGuardi, a former Republican Congressman, and his cohorts, would merely have balanced their bribing and their lobbying more towards Republicans then Democrats, not that in the actual case they at all neglected the former.
Apart from all that the US continues to be the World's largest harbourer of terrorists, and, as I came more and more to realise over recent years, and as more of the World is coming to see, the largest terrorist nation on earth.
Dennis Revell
Etats Unis - Sunday July 06, 2003 at 5:53 am
So we have a seconder for a letter.If Peter agrees, I'll second him for Secretary (or any position he wants ;-); and I propose, again if he agrees that he prepares a draft and E-Mails it to the sensible ones here (I'm not sure how much of a 'good' idea it is to post versions here, that needs to be thought about - maybe one of those private Yahoo or Microsoft thingy group accounts would work.
Who's got a good printer, I wonder; laser-quality colour? I'm thinking in terms of high-quality scanned gifs or jpegs of signatures that may be can be sent to a central location (Peter may be) for addition to the letter, with Peter's signature on top, of course.
Or, if Peter prefers to send the letter himself, each of us could send follow ups shortly afterwards asking del Monte: has she read it? has she had it brought to her attention? does she plan to read it? has she replied? if not, does she plan to reply? if not, why not? if so, when? .... etc etc ... . It could end up as quite a bombardment.
You can find my E-Mail here, which might also give you a bit of a larff (I had a larff writing it, anyway).
Here's an unrelated but interesting web-page I recently had E-Mailed to me: WMDs, ou sont ils?
And I have to apologise to RebecKa for being somewhat rude in reference to how typically Americans' knowledge of World geography is gained by bombing it. There are some Americans who do seem to have quite an idea, as this map illustrates, probably the largest jpeg in, and indeed, of the World.
Now, which so ... knowledgeable Americans could have prepared such a map? These bright boys. Of course! They have to know a bit more than the average American, these are those who do the bombing, so of course they have to have some idea of just where to bomb (this month).
Does this map bother anyone else as much as it bothers me? Kind of reminds me of old maps of the World when the Sun never set on all the pink bits of the British Empire; except it's worse: There aren't ANY bits left out of this map.
Dennis Revell
Etats Unis - Sunday July 06, 2003 at 6:07 am
BTW, Godfred you're a namby-pamby pinko democrat leftie commie liberal, wot with all that Luxemburg & Liebknecht stuff, whatever. ;-)
D R
Etats Unis - Sunday July 06, 2003 at 6:51 am
... gun-grabbin' ...
D R
Etats Unis - Sunday July 06, 2003 at 11:48 am
JP:Iraq under Saddam was a completely secular state. Only in the last few years of his regime did he implement Islamic flavored diatribes against the West, yet he did not change the basic structure of his country.
Under Saddam, Iraq was moving towards a civilized state, albeit under a dictotorship. Men and women were sent abroad to get a Western education. Women widely entered such professions as scientists, physicians, etc. In light of this, I wonder how you can call the bombing of Iraq a fight against radical Islam. If anything, it has encouraged it. The Shiite mosques have become breeding grounds for airing grievances against the Sunnis and the West, as well as for transported terrorism from Iran. And even the Sunnis, it seems, are becoming increasingly resentful of the West, and radicalized.
P M
USA - Sunday July 06, 2003 at 1:25 pm
Why the US is wasting its time and some precious ilfe.
Gogol Charlemagne
SG - Sunday July 06, 2003 at 2:44 pm
THE AMERICANS GO RIGHT TO THE OTHER SIDE...Although J,P is right in that "Bush is not Clinton", and "Iraq is not Serbia", radical Islam has in fact been encouraged by Bush's bombing of Iraq - as well as by Clinton's war on Serbia (although in neither case was that the intention, really).
Anyway I'd second J,P on not particularly wanting to see Bush at the Hague, - just imagine what h'd sound like!
Then compare with (this bit of) Mr. Milosevic's opening statement on 14 Februar, 2002:
MILOSEVIC: This is the first opportunity that I have been given, after seven months here, to address the public. Over the past two days the Prosecutors have all of them uttered one particular sentence; that is to say that they are just trying an individual, that it is one individual only who is on trial here. Now, that is a very sensitive -- it is a sensitive point to link this up with a nation, with a people. So they're trying an individual and not a nation. All three Prosecutors said that. But...
...in all these indictments, they are accusing the entire nation...everybody who lent support, the government, the parliament, the various political organisations, the media. They all stand accused here. All this stands accused. The citizens stand accused, citizens who lent their massive support and elected their representatives at free party elections.
We just agree on one point here, that my conduct was the expression of the will of the people. But the Prosecution is accusing the population of supporting me and let me say that my behaviour here is an expression of the will of the citizens as well, the will of the people.
They are accusing the army and the police, the volunteers and the Territorial Defence. And as he says himself, he will be referring to these collectively as "Serb forces", and that is what the Prosecutor has indeed done.
He has accused Serbia and all Serbs who supported me in Serbia and those Serbs who supported me outside Serbia, and all the people who support me in Serbia to this day. And thus he is accusing the people, the nation.
We have heard all this in the past two days. We have heard everything.
And then he says that he is just accusing an individual, and that individual is myself. And he probably thinks that I am superhuman, having these superhuman powers of influencing people and responsibility and accountability outside the territory of my own country. He has subscribed to me some magical God-like powers, and he keeps dealing with my emotional state, what was in my head, what I wanted to achieve, and things of that nature.
The Americans go right (to) the other side of the Globe to fight against terrorism, to Afghanistan, as a case in point, right (on) the other side of the World. And that is considered to be logical and normal, - whereas here the struggle against terrorism in the heart of one's own country, in one's own home, is considered to be a crime.
That means that you are not master in your own home, that you can't react to terrorism in your own home. And I'm going to show the nexus, the link between the two.
In this false indictment...
(Trial Transcripts, Page 648-49)
Godfred Louis-Jensen
Copenhagen
D E N M A R K - Sunday July 06, 2003 at 2:53 pm
PMMy first reaction after 9/11 was to 'smash' Saudi Arabia but evidently cooler heads in DC believed 'smashing' wanton suicidal terrorism, had a better chance of success if a squeeze were put on the totality of the 'fundamentalist' breeding areas.
Iran once was secular, Egypt is hanging on by a thread, Turkey is 'sliding' to the Islamists, Pakistan is a 'hotbed'. We're talking about countries '90%' Islam, that are subjugated off and on to Radical Islamists. The Islamists, having defacto control of their religion, are the dominant muscle the area, and the governments respond to it. The only way they have been held at bay is by the army, as in Turkey, Egypt and Algeria. Iran's Shah failed with the help of dummy Carter. The Serbs failed in Bosnia and Kosovo due to EU interests supported by dummy Clinton.
I basically agree with you on Iraq, but what the people needed/wanted in addition was the ouster of Saddam. We also wanted the yolk of Fundamentalism to begin being lifted in the ME. Seems in the ME, the choice is having either a Dictator or a Fundamentalist Imman in control. Democracy, sans a fundamentalism theocracy is what is needed. Helping the Iraqis to implanting a government to do this won't be easy, but with the Iraqi people, it may be the best place to start. Hopefully, Iranians now are gaining support to dump the Fundamentalists and . seeing what is happening in Iraq, must be encouraging.
Face it, the world was/is losing against the 'Jihad'. W, Britain, Spain, Italy, Poland etc are tackling it head on. France, Germany, Belgium etc, are EU self centered and would like to have the US forces at their beck and call, as in Yugoslavia. They would like nothing better than to put W on the dock as they did Milosevic. All the while they still fete all over Clinton.
They have no scrupples or noble vision.
J, P
USA,Wis - Sunday July 06, 2003 at 3:43 pm
Brilliant opening statement by Milosevic, especially the 2nd last paragraph posted. If W could do as well would require much 'surfing'.We are spoiled by Milosevics stellar performances, his demeanor and the fact that he writes his own speeches. Everything he says seems to come from the heart, you can take it to the bank, contrasted to the sly selfserving induendoes from the 'prosecution'.
On this side of the Atlantic, W's from the heart preception is the same, and it shows in the polls and elections.
Granted he has not shown himself to be a Milosevic or Shakespear. His best attempt, IMO, was his post 9/11 speech, uniting the country and waking up the world. It did him and the country proud.
J, P
USA,Wis - Sunday July 06, 2003 at 4:30 pm
GCYour Bagdad 747 to 800 left out the part about harems, eunuchs, the amount of plunder and slave labor it took to build Bagdad in a scant 53 yrs.
Saddam, after 1200 yrs is no different except that he just lost it. Finally!
The 'puff' piece was 95% all about oppulence with only the last sentence on what is important. Hillarious, I thought about lunies the system created. .
There were also in Baghdad numerous colleges of learning, hospitals, infirmaries for both sexes, and lunatic asylums. I would't allow the article in the school system less it had a disclaimer to the effect that there has been nothing but squalor and oppression for the people in the ME for the last 1400 yrs minimum.
J, P
USA,Wis - Sunday July 06, 2003 at 6:53 pm
JP: You are quite in the wrong. Some of the first universities in the world were founded in the middle east. That includes El Azhar in Cairo, the university in Fez, Morocco, and Mustansiriya in Bagdad. Just read the Arabian Nights and you will see what kind of people lived in these cities. Also, it seems to me that you are quite ignorant of the fact that it was precisely the Arabs who cherished, nurtured, and developed the learning of the ancient Greeks while Europe (save Byzantium) was in a state of supreme primitivity.
P M
USA - Sunday July 06, 2003 at 6:56 pm
Here is just a list of some of the largest stars in the sky. As you can see, most have Arab names, which are used to the present day. I think this just provides a glimpse into the flaws your rather Eurocentric view of the medieval world: http://www.astro.wisc.edu/~dolan/constellations/starname_list.htmlACAMAR ACHERNAR Achird ACRUX Acubens ADARA Adhafera Adhil AGENA Ain al Rami Ain Al Anz Al Kalb al Rai Al Minliar al Asad Al Minliar al Shuja Aladfar Alathfar Albaldah Albali ALBIREO Alchiba ALCOR ALCYONE ALDEBARAN ALDERAMIN Aldhibah Alfecca Meridiana Alfirk ALGENIB ALGIEBA ALGOL Algorab ALHENA ALIOTH ALKAID Alkalurops Alkes Alkurhah ALMAAK ALNAIR ALNATH ALNILAM ALNITAK Alniyat Alniyat ALPHARD ALPHEKKA ALPHERATZ Alrai Alrisha Alsafi Alsciaukat ALSHAIN Alshat Alsuhail ALTAIR Altarf Alterf Aludra Alula Australis Alula Borealis Alya Alzirr Ancha Angetenar ANKAA Anser ANTARES ARCTURUS Arkab Posterior Arkab Prior ARNEB Arrakis Ascella Asellus Australis Asellus Borealis Asellus Primus Asellus Secondus Asellus Tertius Asterope Atik Atlas Auva Avior Azelfafage Azha Azmidiske Baham Baten Kaitos Becrux Beid BELLATRIX BETELGEUSE Botein Brachium CANOPUS CAPELLA Caph CASTOR Cebalrai Celaeno Chara Chort COR CAROLI Cursa Dabih Deneb Algedi Deneb Dulfim Deneb el Okab Deneb el Okab Deneb Kaitos Shemali DENEB DENEBOLA Dheneb Diadem DIPHDA Double Double (7051) Double Double (7052) Double Double (7053) Double Double (7054) Dschubba Dsiban DUBHE Ed Asich Electra ELNATH ENIF ETAMIN FOMALHAUT Fornacis Fum al Samakah Furud Gacrux Gianfar Gienah Cygni Gienah Ghurab Gomeisa Gorgonea Quarta Gorgonea Secunda Gorgonea Tertia Graffias Grafias Grumium HADAR Haedi HAMAL Hassaleh Head of Hydrus Herschel's "Garnet Star" Heze Hoedus II Homam Hyadum I Hyadum II IZAR Jabbah Kaffaljidhma Kajam KAUS AUSTRALIS Kaus Borealis Kaus Meridionalis Keid Kitalpha KOCAB Kornephoros Kraz Kuma Lesath Maasym Maia Marfak Marfak Marfic Marfik MARKAB Matar Mebsuta MEGREZ Meissa Mekbuda Menkalinan MENKAR Menkar Menkent Menkib MERAK Merga Merope Mesarthim Metallah Miaplacidus Minkar MINTAKA MIRA MIRACH Miram MIRPHAK MIZAR Mufrid Muliphen Murzim Muscida Muscida Muscida Nair al Saif Naos Nash Nashira Nekkar NIHAL Nodus Secundus NUNKI Nusakan Peacock PHAD Phaet Pherkad Minor Pherkad Pleione Polaris Australis POLARIS POLLUX Porrima Praecipua Prima Giedi PROCYON Propus Propus Propus Rana Ras Elased Australis Ras Elased Borealis RASALGETHI RASALHAGUE Rastaban REGULUS Rigel Kentaurus RIGEL Rijl al Awwa Rotanev Ruchba Ruchbah Rukbat Sabik Sadalachbia SADALMELIK Sadalsuud Sadr SAIPH Salm Sargas Sarin Sceptrum SCHEAT Secunda Giedi Segin Seginus Sham Sharatan SHAULA SHEDIR Sheliak SIRIUS Situla Skat SPICA Sterope II Sualocin Subra Suhail al Muhlif Sulafat Syrma Tabit (1543) Tabit (1544) Tabit (1552) Tabit (1570) Talitha Tania Australis Tania Borealis TARAZED Taygeta Tegmen Tejat Posterior Terebellum Terebellum Terebellum Terebellum Thabit Theemim THUBAN Torcularis Septentrionalis Turais Tyl UNUKALHAI VEGA VINDEMIATRIX Wasat Wezen Wezn Yed Posterior Yed Prior Yildun Zaniah Zaurak Zavijah Zibal Zosma Zuben Elakrab Zuben Elakribi Zuben Elgenubi Zuben Elschemali
However, perhaps it would be best to leave the Arabs and Muslims in general, and get back to the Milosevic proceedings.
P M
USA - Sunday July 06, 2003 at 10:55 pm
Lloyd Axworthy the former Minister of Foreign Affairs of Canada during the Kosovo campaign by NATO accused George Bush of being a military dictator. “Lloyd Axworthy has written a new book that portrays U.S. President George Bush as an extreme radical leader whose approach to world affairs is based on "military dominance and naked self-interest," In the 430-page book to be released this fall, Axworthy says the Bush administration is dominated by overzealous Christians, blasts U.S. ambassador Paul Cellud for hectoring Canadians over the Iraq war and accuses the Chretien government of capitulating to Americans by entering negotiations on ballistic missile deface. “Anyone who thinks that proximity (to the United States) brings favor or privilege is living in a dream world.” Axworthy writes in the book, entitled “Navigating a new World. Canada’s Global Future”This is the same Axworthy who beat the drum to bomb Yugoslavia and now he wants to sell his book on the coat tails of Bush’s buffoonery There is no honor among those who practice “naked self-interest”.
Walter Trkla
Kamloops BC
Canada - Sunday July 06, 2003 at 10:55 pm
Lloyd Axworthy the former Minister of Foreign Affairs of Canada during the Kosovo campaign by NATO accused George Bush of being a military dictator. “Lloyd Axworthy has written a new book that portrays U.S. President George Bush as an extreme radical leader whose approach to world affairs is based on "military dominance and naked self-interest," In the 430-page book to be released this fall, Axworthy says the Bush administration is dominated by overzealous Christians, blasts U.S. ambassador Paul Cellud for hectoring Canadians over the Iraq war and accuses the Chretien government of capitulating to Americans by entering negotiations on ballistic missile deface. “Anyone who thinks that proximity (to the United States) brings favor or privilege is living in a dream world.” Axworthy writes in the book, entitled “Navigating a new World. Canada’s Global Future”This is the same Axworthy who beat the drum to bomb Yugoslavia and now he wants to sell his book on the coat tails of Bush’s buffoonery There is no honor among those who practice “naked self-interest”.
Walter Trkla
Kamloops BC
Canada - Monday July 07, 2003 at 12:05 am
PMWe can't leave it to the Arabs and Muslims in general . Their harbored fundamentalists want to take the world back to the 700's. Afghanistan is an example of how successful they can be. It's going to take a lot to reverse the damage, and check the worldwide onslaught.
In Kosovo they pulled out of the state school system. To where they could learn hate and cause grief for the Serbs ( Milosevic said as much in his speeches in front of Judge May). In Bosnia, they wanted to whole enchilada without any representation by the Croats or Serbs. They have Kosovo are not yet done in the area. They bit Milosevic's hand and IMO are the core of today's crisis. Not W.
If not for the fundamentalist's criminal agitations in Kosovo, Milosevic would be enjoying a well deserved retirement, and EU's NATO would have found another excuse to breakup Yugoslavia.
J, P
USA,Wis - Monday July 07, 2003 at 12:33 am
You are right about the fundamentalists, but Iraq was not a fundamentalist regime. That is the point. In contrast, it was a rather secular regime, albeit a dictatorship, and provided more rights to religious minorities and women than all the other fundamentalist Middle Eastern regimes combined, many of which are allies of America.The Shiites are naturally more inclined towards fundamentalism than the Sunnis. Saddam kept a clamp on this fundamentalism. By attacking Iraq, Bush has only served to radicalize the population and give Iran (via the Shiites) a toehold to export more international terrorism.
P M
USA - Monday July 07, 2003 at 12:37 am
JPAfghanistan is NOT a success story. It is a story of failure. Read some recent articles on Afghanistan. Women still wear burqas, cannot sing, dance, show their faces, get an education, etc. The Taliban has been exchanged for the equally barbaric Northern Alliance, which participated in gruesome atrocities against Russians in the war in the 1980s, and Bin Laden and Mullah Omar have escaped. You call that a success story? It's a dismal failure. From all that I have read, it seems that the Americans are cooped up in the main towns and cities and that the Muslim fundamentalists of a non-Pashtun flavor (always favor one people over another, as was the case in Kosovo) are given free reign to terrorize their political (if you can call such medieval barbarism "politics"), religious, and ethnic enemies.
P M
USA - Monday July 07, 2003 at 4:14 am
BACK TO THE USA... I did not hear PM suggesting to "leave it to the Arabs and Muslims", did I? But to get back to "the Milosevic proceedings" here is a bit of an (early if undated?) interview with Hashim Thaci (1) supporting JP's notion, that if not for the fundamentalist's criminal agitations in Kosovo NATO would have had to find some other way of breaking up Yugoslavia (subduing the FRY and Serbia in particular):[quote starts here]
(FRONTLINE): Then came the winter offensive, which started Christmas night 1998, and culminated with the massacre of Racak. Do you think they entered Racak and killed 45 Albanians as revenge for the actions that KLA had taken on the Serbian security forces?
(HASHIM THACI): All the Serbian forces in Kosovo were occupying forces in Kosovo. We were continually defending ourselves from the attacks they made in specific regions of Kosovo. In accordance to this, there is the case where we took nine Serb soldiers as hostages in one region. I consider that a turning point, because not only was the international community recognizing the KLA, but so was the Yugoslav government. Eventually, they had to enter negotiations with us to exchange prisoners of war. I think this was a turning point in recognizing that the KLA is a credible force in Kosovo.
(FRONTLINE): But during the Racak massacre, were there a lot of actions?
(HASHIM THACI): There were continuous confrontations, and I consider that it was really an organized massacre. It was a massacre that influenced the international public opinion a lot, and it clarified the positioning of the international community about what should they really do in Kosovo.
[quote ends here]
So the 45 "Albanians" listed in the Schedule A attached to the NATO Indictment as known (by name anyway!) to have been killed in "the massacre of Racak" on 15 January 1999 were the victims of "organized massacre"; and even without disclosing how this was "really" organized mr. Thaci leaves "the international community" with little doubt about KLA ways of calling if not the Marines then at least the U.S. Kosovo Liberation Airforce.
Hashim Thaci has not yet been called as a witness for the Prosecution, has him? (1) FRONTLINE interview:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/kosovo/interviews/thaci.html
Godfred Louis-Jensen
Copenhagen
D E N M A R K - Monday July 07, 2003 at 4:23 am
It is becoming transparent that the claim used to justify the NATO invasion of Yugoslavia - that Serbian massacred civilians at Racak and the breadline- was false.In over a year of Milosevic’s trial not a single stitch of concrete evidence has emerged to tie the Serbs to these acts that the West used to bomb Serbia for 78 days. Many senior military, intelligence officials have appeared in court and most were caught in lies while many others exonerated Milosevic and the Serbian people. Prosecution so far has not presented a single thread of evidence to tie the Serbs to the “smoking gun” at Racak nor to the breadline massacre which provided the Bosnian Muslims and Croats with the NATO air force.. What is most interesting I have not seen or read in the transcripts any mention of the breadline or the marketplace bombings in Sarajevo? I an forced to ask why?
It is imperative for all who care about democracy whether or not they supported the war to understand the deception and the causes of what has occurred. How many times are we to accept lies and turn a blind eye to deception?
“One important moment on the road that led to the invasion of Yugoslavia and later Iraq can be found in the formation in 1997 of the Project for the New American Century. This lobby group represented almost all the most powerful figures associated with the defense and foreign policy wing of American neo-conservatism: Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, Richard Perle, Paul Wolfowitz and William Kristol. All of them regarded the arrival of the era of U.S. global hegemony at the end of the Cold War as providing a splendid opportunity for spreading American ideals of liberal democracy and free trade, if necessary by military means. All supported a serious increase in U.S. defense spending. And all advocated a policy of preventing the emergence of a superpower rival to the U.S.”
The first step in this policy was to destabilize Yugoslavia using neo-fascist elements in the west. The breakup of Yugoslavia provided the first steps to the establishment of American military bases and control of the Balkans as the Project for the New American Century envisioned.
Although the true purpose of the breakup of Yugoslavia was not because the Serbs were doing what the Western media propagandized but because they were one step behind the lies. Instead of initiating policy they were reacting to Western initiatives, thinking that their former friends were honorable men.
Western press planned war against Yugoslavia was not to stop Milosevic but to bring about "regime change," the case for war had to be argued in terms of the threat to human rights. We all know that the words millions raped, hundred thousand killed, and millions ethnically cleansed came at us like machine gun bullets in daily newspapers, radio and television. Once their job was done the media forgot Yugoslavia as if it never existed. One has to be insane to think that this was by accident.
Invasion of sovereign nations, fighting wars to bring about regime change, and using illegal weapons are a breach of international law. The breach of international law is so blatant that the United Nations has become redundant. The Secretary, General Kofi Annan, has become an American marionette. The dictatorship of America is complete. This is dangerous because this regime does not value human life. Their actions in Yugoslavia and now in Iraq are “naked self-interest”. What is even more dangerous is that they are using tribunals where their acts of injustice are sold to the world as a “Devine Right”.
The case for the invasion of Yugoslavia was a result of uncritical acceptance and even manipulation of public opinion and culpability in murder which took place in Racak, Krajina Bosnia and Serbia. This is now a common practice by this and the previous American regime that the American public has accepted it as normal. American public has been put to sleep on the issue of international justice.
It was on the basis of manipulation that these chameleons Clinton, Bush, and Tony Blair and others claimed Milosevic was the danger when in fact they are the new Jesuits with their inquisition chamber at The Hague. With every passing day Milosevic is showing them to be liars. It should be now apparent to all but those who will walk over their mother in the pursuit of naked self-interest that this is a false indictment.
Walter Trkla
Kamloops BC
Canada - Monday July 07, 2003 at 7:40 am
An American couple touring Scandinavia (you know: "If it´s Sunday, then this must be Copenhagen...!) confided with me only yesterday, that although having a vague recollection of some "trial" at the Hague they knew absolutely nothing about the proceedings!I do suspect that in spite of the fact that the claim used to justify U.S./NATO action against the FRY in 1999 was indeed false, this is unfortunately "transparent" only to the very few of us.
It is quite true as Walter Trkla states above, that with every passing day of the proceeedings "Milosevic is showing them (Clinton, Bush and Tony Blair and others) to be liars."
Yet it is not just those who walk in the pursuit of self-interest (as did the American "ambassador" Walker in the village of Racak in Kosovo on 16 January 1999!), but most people actually including the average couple touring Copenhagen and environs for whom it has still to become apparent that in this case we are concerned with an entirely false "Indictment" too.
Godfred Louis-Jensen
Copenhagen
D E N M A R K - Monday July 07, 2003 at 10:12 am
Yes Godfred -- nobody is aware of the trial, not even the so-called journalists who have much more exciting things to write about -- new wars, blah blah blah. And sorry to be negative but nobody will ever know about it. Who is motivated to look it up? My view of it is that unless there is some miraculous event to wake the world up, we are writing for the historians who will study this when we're all gone. How can we expect more when even the 'journalists' who now and then drop in to the trial, talk about the Butcher of the Balkans, and quote Judge May's statements about how Milosevic is trying to make points in Serbia and dragging out the trial, and -- well you know the program ...
Nikole J
Canada - Monday July 07, 2003 at 11:14 am
Hashim Thaci at an early stage considered the crucial incident at Racak "an organized massacre" (1) to influence international public opinion on what action U.S./NATO should take in the Serbian province of Kosovo. Should he not be called as a witness for the ICTY Prosecution in the Hague?In view of reports that the former terrorist has admitted the fraud (2), and that KLA attacks on Serbian police and VJ troops were calculated in order to provoke a military intervention, it seems that Hashim Thaci must have vital information also about the preceeding murder of Serbian policemen in the Racak area. May that not incl. the murder of Przic on 10 January 1999.
Having admitted that KLA members killed in the clashes with Serbian government forces were removed so as to be "discovered" later by William Walker, Hashim Thaci should be expected to know how the alleged crime in the KLA stronghold was set up in order to blame Belgrade for the killing of "unarmed civilians".
(1) Poster, July 07, 2003 at 4:14 am
(2) Poster, July 06, 2003 at 1:01 am
Godfred Louis-Jensen
Copenhagen
D E N M A R K - Monday July 07, 2003 at 5:40 pm
‘MORAL COMBAT: NATO AT WAR’ Reporter Allan LittleA BBC2 special, 9pm Sunday 12 March 2000 - An excerpt:
LITTLE: With US backing for the KLA now barely concealed, Milosevic sent the army back into action to clear the KLA out of Podujevo. The doomed procession to war with NATO had begun. The KLA continued to smuggle arms over mountain passes from Albania. Albanian civilians were press ganged into service. Before dawn on the fifteenth of December, they walked into a well prepared Serbian ambush. Most of those taken by surprise fled back into Albania. But 31 Albanian men were killed. Later on the same day in an apparent act of revenge, what remained of ethnic co-existence in the city of Pec nearby, was to be torn apart. A group of hooded, masked men drove up to this bar which was popular with young Serbs.
LAZAR OBRADOVIC: The doors opened and then we heard the machine gun fire …"
LITTLE: Lazar's teenage son, Ivan, was in the bar. He was a bright and promising school boy, who'd come top of his class..
LAZAR OBRADOVIC: It was a horrifying sight. We tried to help those that were still moving. There was blood everywhere. Ivan didn't stand a chance. He was sitting right by the door. So he was the first one to be hit.
FATHER MIRJLKO KORICANIN PARISH PRIEST, PEC: The situation in Pec became unbearable. The Serbs couldn't stand the Albanians because they had killed 6 children. And the Albanians couldn't stand the Serbs. Nobody knew what would happen next.
LITTLE: Walker condemned both the ambush on the border and the killings in the bar in equal measure.
WILLIAM WALKER HEAD, KOSOVO VERIFICATION MISSION: It really looked like this was a tit for tat again. KLA hearing about their people being killed up on the border had done this in Pec.
WILLIAM WALKER
Q: There is a huge difference, isn't there, between people killed in a legitimate military exchange and a bunch of hooded unknowns walking into a bar and killing some teenagers..?
A: I think the point is, we really didn't know what had happened in Pec. Yes the government was saying it was KLA gangsters who had come in and sprayed this bar. When you don't know what has happened, it's a lot more difficult to sort of pronounce yourself.
LITTLE: One month later Walker was to break this rule to spectacular effect. He pronounced himself with absolute certainty about a massacre that occurred here, in the village of Racak. Even now, more than a year on, important questions about what happened here remain unanswered. This is the story of that massacre, of the political uses to which it was put, of how it galvanised the west to go to war, and of the pivotal role played by William Walker. There is nothing remarkable about Racak. Except that by January 1999, the KLA had moved in, most of the villagers had fled, and trenches had been dug on the edge of the village.
PAULA GHEDINI UN REFUGEE AGENCY: We encountered many villages where the villagers themselves told us in very clear terms that they would prefer to be left completely alone. Often times they felt that if a KLA group were to come into their village, that would put them under greater threat.
LITTLE: From camouflaged positions near Racak the KLA launched well prepared hit and run strikes against Serb patrols. In early January, they killed four Serb policemen.
ZYMER LUBOVCI KLA FIGHTER: We saw them coming, so we prepared and opened fire. But it was guaranteed that every time we took action they would take revenge on civilians.
LITTLE: Racak did not have to wait long for the retaliation. The attack began on the morning of January 15th.
HASIM THACI KLA LEADER: A ferocious struggle took place. We suffered heavy losses, but so did the Serbs. They set out to commit atrocities, because a key KLA unit was based in this area.
LITTLE: International observers watched from safe high ground as Serb forces took control of the village. They moved from house to house. Most were empty. The KLA had gone. When the Serb forces pulled out in the afternoon, they announced they'd killed 15 KLA men in action. The international monitors entered the village and reported nothing unusual. Only next morning did the full force of Serb retaliation become apparent. William Walker went to see for himself.
WILLIAM WALKER: We progressed up the hill and about every 15 or 20 yards there was another body as we kept going up the hill, and I don't know how many bodies we passed before we got to a pile of bodies.
LITTLE: By the time Walker arrived the KLA had retaken control of Racak
WALKER [archive]: I think its going to take me a few minutes to determine what I really should say, and I'd like to hold a press conference in Pristina later this afternoon.
Walker [archive]: The facts as verified by KVM include evidence of arbitrary detentions, extra-judicial killings, and the mutilation of unarmed civilians of Albanian ethnic origin in the village of Racak by the MUP and VJ.
LITTLE: In other words, he blamed the Serbian police and the Yugoslav army. Walker was supposed to be an independent international official. But did he seek direct instruction now from the Americans?
WILLIAM WALKER: Without calling any of my capitals I told what I thought I had seen, which was the end result of a massacre.
RICHARD HOLBROOKE: William Walker, the head of the Kosovo Verification Mission, called me on a cell phone from Racak.
WILLIAM WALKER
Q: But you don't remember calling Washington at all?GENERAL WESLEY CLARK SUPREME ALLIED COMMANDER EUROPE: I got a call from Bill Walker. He said there's a massacre. I'm standing here. I can see the bodies.
WILLIAM WALKER
(No reply to question) Q: And you didn't speak to Gen Clark or anybody like that?LITTLE: Walker's comments gave America the green light to enter Kosovo's war. The KLA had pulled in it's mighty ally.
Peter Taylor
Herts/UK - Monday July 07, 2003 at 7:50 pm
Evil Beyond Belief“If people make a claim and it turns out to be wrong they should accept it is wrong.”
Stated Blair yesterday reports the daily Telegraph today. He was referring to accusations by the BBC that the two ‘Dodgy Dossiers’ on Iraq’s Weapons of Mass Destruction had exaggerated the threat to Britain and thus given a false justification for war.
The facts remain that the February dossier was largely an unattributed twelve-year-old PhD thesis wherein certain phrases had been conveniently altered and the September dossier contained at least two significant statements that were untrue: The claim that Iraq was sourcing nuclear material from Niger was based on forged documents and the claim that Iraq could launch Weapons of Mass destruction at British military bases in Cyprus with a 45-minute readiness is shown, in the absence of ICBM’s, to be laughably absurd. But Blair his ministers and Campbell have a history of such deception:
Mr Blair said emerging accounts of Serb atrocities in Kosovo revealed "evil beyond belief". Fleeing refugees told of women being raped in front of their families and men forced to dig their own graves before being shot. The United High Commission for Refugees had also confirmed that civilians had been used as human shields to prevent Nato attacking a military target, he said. "The acts remain the essential justification for Nato's actions," Mr Blair said. "We cannot allow the policy of ethnic genocide to go unchecked." BBC News 26 April 1999.
“I have no difficulty at all in justifying this military action. When civilians are killed, we regret every single death. And this regret is genuine. It is why we take every precaution possible. But this contrasts with the barbarism in Kosovo unleashed by Milosevic and his forces, which is the result of a deliberate policy of ethnic cleansing. The result is 1.5 million people forced from their homes. One hundred thousand men missing. Thousands executed. Hundreds of women raped. And you must not forget that NATO did not want to launch this military action. We tried for months to reach a peaceful settlement. Milosevic continually broke his word and carried on with the terror in Kosovo. We only started the air campaign when every other option had been exhausted.” Blair’s Observer newspaper interview 16 may 1999.
“There have been civilian deaths in Belgrade, yes. But how does it compare to 1.5 million people driven from their homes? 100,000 men aged 15-55 missing? The systematic rapemass graves? The executions? People forced to bury their dead, and then murdered and - thrown in on top?” Blair speech to Newspaper Society 10 May 1999.
“Be in no doubt that there are fresh horror stories to confront when we go into Kosovo. For in a final awful crescendo - his project of a Greater Serbia having failed in every other respect - Milosevic has turned his forces on his own citizens in Kosovo. There, with cold premeditation, he has expelled more than a million people from their homes, emptied entire cities and killed thousands.” Blair in the Mail 7 May 1999
We simply cannot know, yet, how many people he (Milosevic) has butchered inside Kosovo. But I warn the House, it is going to be a very considerable number. And we hear, day after day, after day, from these refugees, tales of whole villages being rounded up and shot. Tales of hundreds of young men being taken away and never seen again. Said Blair
There was no Genocide. There were no Mass Graves. There was no Systematic Rape. So hands up all those who now believe they will soon hear Phony Tony ‘accepting it was wrong’ to engage in his massive lies during the Kosovo campaign?
”So whenever you hear Mr. Blair talking of Serb atrocities, just ignore him.” Emmanuel Goldstein 22 December 1999.
Letters to the perpetrators will not do. We need to engage at least one mass media organisation to combat Blair and the BBC’s WMD’s, Weapons of Mass Deception, otherwise International Justice will never be achieved.
Peter Taylor
Herts/UK - Tuesday July 08, 2003 at 1:17 am
Indeed, Peter, and on top of all that, Blair is the ultimate buggerer of little boys.Not meant to mean, as the link above illustrates, in the wayward Roman Catholic priest sense, but in an even worse one.
That little boy certainly looks buggered to me. He would really have been better off "cloistered" in some Roman Catholic seminary with some dodgy priests.
Photo' courtesy of the Brits for Peace web-site, whose "liberate" photo' page reveals Blair to be also an indiscriminate (co-)buggerer of men, women and little girls. Lots of 'photos of buggered people there, for sure.
So, Blair's definitely one up on wayward Catholic priests. His way to Heaven is assured.
Peter, any thoughts on a letter ref. your great pick-up on Thaci/K6?
Dennis Revell
Etats Unis - Tuesday July 08, 2003 at 1:56 am
Not necessarily to the perpetrators, as you say, (I'd like to see them all on the wrong end of a Chieftain tank), but an open letter/article, to stick on the Internet, to Swans, antiwar.com, and oh, yea, OK, Emperor's Clothes, etc.
D R
Etats Unis - Tuesday July 08, 2003 at 7:58 am
Peter Taylor,Ref.: The testimony of witness K6.
On Saturday July 05, 2003 at 11:07 am, in a poster (adressed to Dennis) you recalled reading a report "that (former KLA leader Hashim) Thaci had boasted of his involvement in the murder of (four? Serbian) policemen (in Kosovo in early January 1999)",
asking if "anyone know the source of this (potentially useful) report".
Well, - on Sunday July 06, 2003 at 1:01 am I was suggesting, that it just might be this one, or one parallel to this one from "tripod", that triggered your memory:
http://aaart.tripod.com/thaci.htm >P> Was it, you think? It must be possible to clarify the "Russian origins" of this radio- or TV-report.
There may be other suggestions as well? >P> It may even be all we need?
Godfred Louis-Jensen
Copenhagen
D E N M A R K - Tuesday July 08, 2003 at 8:25 am
No Godfred. I would never rely on or quote a Russian source, not because it would not be reliable but because it could be perceived to be so.
Peter Taylor
Herts/UK - Tuesday July 08, 2003 at 8:35 am
DennisI don’t own the truth. All I have done is to point to the fact that records of witness statements in the trial of Milosevic contain evidence of Hashim Thaci’s acts of terrorism: Acts that have also been widely reported elsewhere: Including by western diplomats according to Chris Hedges a New York Times reporter.
A second fact is that Carla del Ponte has been making excuses during the past four years that she has ‘no evidence or witnesses’ to indict Thaci: In spite of this evidence in court records of the witness K6?
A third fact is that when the court indicted Milosevic it equally did not have any witnesses to the alleged crimes of Milosevic: Hence a principal source of farce in this trial has been the desperate attempt to find witnesses for the charges made. The charges were based simply on the fact that Albanians had been killed although it is clearly not established in most cases who killed them let alone why they were killed.
In at least three instances Nato initially claimed the deaths caused by its own bombs had been Serbian atrocities. I refer to two tractor convoys and the prison near Istok where between 200 and 300 Kosovars were killed - a similar number of deaths to that for which Milosevic is charged. The KLA killed even more Kosovars than Nato.
All these facts are perfectly well known to the powers that be. Blair ‘believes’ that whatever he does is right. Bush ‘promised’ to withdraw from the Balkans but has no intention to do so. Samantha Powers wins the Pulitzer prise although her work is so badly researched that she does not ‘know’ that Milosevic is not charged with the Genocide she claims in Kosovo …
I make my statements here in the hope that incontrovertible facts will be picked up by historians so that the truth will eventually emerge. I see no short term turn of events. Can you imagine how the conviction of Thaci would affect Blair and New Labour? They would they ever recover from the revelation of the crimes of the one on the left (-: figuratively speaking :-) in support of the crimes of the one on the right:The KLA recruited Mujahedin in Kosovo. Ergo it is not going to happen!
For three years before I found this site I wrote hundreds of letters at a cost of hundreds of GBP’s to no effect. Thus I speak from experience when I doubt the usefulness of such a course. However if you or anyone else believes that they can make good use of the facts about “Thaci/K6”, including my explanation of them, please do so. But remember they are not my facts: The source is ‘The Transcripts of the Trial of Milosevic’ at the International Court of Justice, The Hague.
Ironic isn’t it?
PS: Thanks to Ian Davis for the source of the picture of ‘The Happy Couple’
Peter Taylor
Herts/UK - Tuesday July 08, 2003 at 10:24 am
Hi All,I'm back from Yugoslavia. It was quite an interesting trip. I learned a lot.
For example, I went to Novi Sad and I visited the former "Royal Casino" which has been subsequently renamed the Hotel "Putnik."
I can tell you that half of Novi Sad knows the identity of the secret witness "C-47." All you have to do is ask around the Hotel a little bit and you can learn a lot of things.
"C-47" was never the manager of the Casino. People know who the real manager was, and that man was in Australia the whole time that "C-47" was testifying.
"C-47" only ran the roulette table. "C-47" was also a well known pimp and drug dealer in Novi Sad.
"C-47" has not returned to Novi Sad since he testified and he now lives in Canada.
This example only goes to prove how lazy the foreign affairs analysts are. It only took me about 15 minutes worth of asking around Novi Sad to ascertain C-47's actual identity, where he is living now, and to learn that he is nothing but a criminal.
The only reason that the Hague Tribunal keeps the identity of their secret witnesses a secret is beacuse the witnesses are criminals.
A lot of the secret witnesses divulge enough information about themselves in open session that with a little bit of research you can figure out who they are, and every time that I have managed to figure out the real identity of a secret witness they have all turned out to be criminals.
The way this trial is being carried out there is no way that a verdict of the Hague Tribunal could mean anything. Slobodan Milosevic is being put on trial by the mafia.
Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States - Tuesday July 08, 2003 at 11:01 am
Hi Andy, Are you planning to write a report or some sort of summary of your trip etc.Thanks
Dan b
Canada - Tuesday July 08, 2003 at 12:09 pm
I did not mean to suggest, Peter, that you trust a "Russian source" any more than, say, BBC or CNN (or Danmarks Radio for that matter).Nevertheless an article dated March 7th, 2000 at Andrej Tisma's PERSONAL website (1), stating that
RECENTLY the "leader of the Albanian terrorists in Kosovo, Hashim Thaci, told...FOREIGN REPORTERS...how his terrorist KLA committed crimes..."
could be a lead TO ASSIST (you) in tracking down the full "report of Thaci’s boast", - which you seem to remember probably of (late) 1999 (as it is not referred to i Hedge's articles in the NYT or Guardian).
I agree that if together with the facts of the crimes and evidence provided by Belgrade one has what would appear to amount to a "confession" from mr. Thaki, then the evidence provided by the ICTY prosecution witness K6 could certainly not be ignored.
Can anybody help, please, - maybe by identifying the place and date of mr. Hashim Thaki's meeting with "foreign reporters"?
(1) http://aaart.tripod.com/personal.htm
Godfred Louis-Jensen
Copenhagen
D E N M S R K - Tuesday July 08, 2003 at 1:24 pm
Should not KLA leader MR. HASHIM THAKI, who told how the socalled Kosovo Liberation Army committed crimes and sho has specifically declared the incident at the village of Racak on 15 January 1999 to be "organized" to provoke NATO military action, be called by the socalled ICTY "trial" at the Hague?
Godfred Louis-Jensen
Copenhagen
D E N M A R K - Tuesday July 08, 2003 at 1:29 pm
What other nuggets did you find out Andy? Will you report all of nuggets or just the ones beneficial to cause of Milosevic?For example did anybody tell you what a crook Rade Markovic is? Do yourself and the Serbian people a service Andy tell all. The Serbian people are as a whole very honest. Im sure they told you some things that surprised you.
You were here when story broke about Djukanovic and Milosevic being investigated by Italian judge for smuggling and sipphoning off millions from sale of Yugoslav telekom respectively. (Ironicaly at time that appeals were being posted here for funding Milosevic).
Were you told how much money Milosevic and JUL stole? About the villa's and weekend houses? If you met any loyal SPS men they probably told you same story that Lilic and others said about JUL at the Hague.
Do yourself and everybody here a service and please tell the whole story. Milosevic may be innocent of at least some charges at the Hague but he was never innocent or cared about his people. People have a right to know just what kind of man they are defending.
Message to rest of you. Keep up good work. Although sometimes I disagree with you most of you are very good. Keep being cynical.
Message to moderator please keep this page short. I tried to post before but give up. Maybe other people do the same.
Sasa Kapor
Serbia + Montenegro - Tuesday July 08, 2003 at 1:48 pm
For Sasa SUDI LOPOVA ZA LOPOVSTINU , we all know mr. Milosevic is no angel but do not take things out of context the whole SERB people has been put to trial as if all of them are criminals and murderers and yes we know he was a thief and for that he could've been indicted in Belgrade and if you are happy by been labeled as a barbarian well I am not
Milan Prika
Panama
Panama - Tuesday July 08, 2003 at 2:29 pm
Sasa,Tito made himself rich on the backs of the Yugoslav people, so did Milosevic, and certainly so did Djindjic.
All 3 of them should have been tried by their own people. Milosevic should have been tried by the Serbs, not by the phoney Hague Court. It's obvious that he is not being tried as Slobodan Milosevic, but as a symbol of Serbdom. In defending himself, which he is doing extremely well, he has to defend Serbdom, too. It may turn out that, due to these circumstances, Milosevic will be the only one of the 3 "thieves" who will actually pay something back to his people if he successfully beats this trial, or even if he doesn't -- just for his efforts to beat it by bringing out the truth.
In any case, I imagine he must be a somewhat changed man now whereas Tito and Djidjic died as they had lived -- corrupt to the core.
Anna P
California - Tuesday July 08, 2003 at 2:33 pm
Sasa Kapor,Slobodan Milosevic is broke. He dosen't have any money. If he stole all of that money then where in the Hell is it now? Where did it go? What happened to all of these secret bank accounts that we've all heard so much about?
The SPS is as broke as Milosevic. I visited a couple of their offices, and they couldn't even afford such luxaries as telephones and electricity in some places. Perhaps you can tell me why they don't use all of that "stolen money" to pay for some electricity?
I heard people in Serbia accuse Milosevic of stealing, but nobody had any direct information about that. All they could do was tell me what they had read in the newspapers, and I had already heard most of that stuff before I ever got there. So there were no revalations on that score. If you have any direct information about all of Milosevic's alleged pilfering then I would invite you to post it here.
This is pure propaganda. They told the people in the West that Milosevic was a genocidal butcher so that they could attack Serbia, and they told the people in Serbia that Milosevic was a thief so that they would overthrow him.
Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States - Tuesday July 08, 2003 at 3:14 pm
Andy, Are yo writing a report on your time in Yugoslavia?
Dan B
Canada - Tuesday July 08, 2003 at 3:35 pm
Andy,"They" didn't have to tell the Serbs anything about how Milosevic's whole family became wealthy during his tenure. The family didn't hide it -- It was there for all to see. If they don't have money now, it's either holed away somewhere abroad where it's difficult to access, or he doesn't want to access it because that way he would reveal where it is, or the family has recklessly spent it.
Milosevic is a very smart man (some times). Milosevic is not a genocidal butcher. But Milosevic is no goody two shoes. He was in power to promote himself, just as all politicians are, not out of some kind of altruistic motive.
All this notwithstanding, Milosevic should not be in the Hague and I hope he trumps them there.
I got back from Serbia the day before you left to go there, apparently. I found the people dejected, worse than ever. They are no longer unified as they once were -- at least from my limited time there that's what I noticed. What did you think?
Can you tell us what kind of film you were working on in Serbia? We need all the expose films we can get to bring out the truth about the Balkans. I admire you for your constancy in your work.
Anna P
California - Tuesday July 08, 2003 at 3:44 pm
Dan BAre we to understand that the financial difficulties for the SLOBODA/Freedom Association and for the defense of Mr. Milosevic as described in your appeal for funds (Friday July 04, 2003 at 5:18 pm and earlier) do not concern the cases of defendants Milutinovic, Ojdanic og Sainovic, - who are facing basically the same charges as given in the ICTY Indictment dated 22 May 1999?
It seems to me that since there would be no need for the ICTY to press charges against these gentlemen (often referred to as "others") once Mr. Milosevic is aquitted, it would be logical to finance (also) the former President's defence from munitions provided for these other gentlemen, - since all of them are facing the same charges and the truth need be told only once and for all (1). (1) To Sasa Kapor: The charges against Mr. Milosevic (and "others" mentioned above) concern "deportation", "murder" and "persecution on political, racial and religious grounds".
These absurd allegations served NATO as an "excuse" for ruthless attack, although the aggression did of course have entirely different "causes" (as most of us now realize in the light also of subsequent U.S. aggression elsewhere).
The socalled "trial" in the Hague is but a (feeble!) attempt to cover up their falseness - the Racak "massacre" hoax being the first and most blatant of NATOs deceptions, - as well as the only charge concerned with an incident prior to the NATO aggression over Kosovo.
It seems to me equally important for all of us, for the people of Serbia as well as for those other people(s), who regrettably took part in a criminal NATO action, to have these issues clearly sorted out in a decent way (and the allegations must not be mistaken for og mixed up with matters domestic, - however important they may appear to you).
Godfred Louis-Jensen
Copenhagen
D E N M A R K - Tuesday July 08, 2003 at 3:55 pm
Note: It is not my appeal. I just posted the message that was sent from Belgrade through a listserve.
Dan B
Canada - Tuesday July 08, 2003 at 3:56 pm
Anna,I can't say if the people were feeling more dejected than before, because this was my first time being there. So I can't compare.
What I saw was a lot of people who felt disenfranchised. They didn't care for politics and didn't trust any of their politicians.
I found that the Serbs are a strong and honorable people, with a rich culture and a strong moral fiber. I was actually surprised by the high level of morality displayed by the general public while I was there.
Not even the Taxi drivers ripped me off with excessive cab fare, as often happens to foreigners in other countries. I thought that I would get killed everytime I took a ride in a Serbian Taxi, because the cab drivers drive like maniacs, but I was never ripped-off by any of them.
Serbia is a great nation, and the Serbs are wonderful people.
The film will be about Serbia's resistance and how Western culture is trying to corrupt Serbia.
Dan B.,
Yes I will write a report about my trip and I will post it on my website.
Can anybody here tell me what happened with Tapuskovic? I heard that there was some contraversey about him, but I don't know any details.
Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States - Tuesday July 08, 2003 at 3:59 pm
Andy,Did you by any chance get to meet any officials of Slobodan..etc.?
Dan B
Canada - Tuesday July 08, 2003 at 4:11 pm
Let me clarify something.I shouldn't say that a lot of people felt disenfranchised, because I don't think that the majority of them are. A great many Serbs will never give up the fight for a free Serbia.
For example, I was very impressed with the people in the SPS. They are working for free, nobody has given them a paycheck since 2001. They are working out of pure devotion to their cause. The chairman of the main board of the SPS even sold his car to get money for the party.
While I was in Serbia the SPS made some substancial gains in the byelections. The SPS, operating on a shoestring has managed to be one of the 3 main political organizations in Serbia. DOS, DSS and the SPS are the leaders, nobody else even comes close to those 3 and the SPS is gaining ground.
I was told by numerous people that it took hundreds of years to drive the Turks out of Kosovo but Serbia did it.
The Serbian people will never give up Kosovo and Metohija. The Serbs are strong people and they will never be defeated in their own country.
Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States - Tuesday July 08, 2003 at 6:49 pm
'The Serbian people will never give up Kosovo and Metohija'.Then Im afraid people told you what they wanted to believe and what you wanted to hear Andy. Most Serbs know at best Kosovo will be divided. The rest is just talk.
Do tell us what the SPS people said about JUL Andy please. You didnt talk about this. What did the real SPS think about the Radicals. Why did Milosevic ally himself with them?
Please do not tell us that Milosevic and others did not enrich themselves. You heard it from some SPS guys. Im sure of that. They are not ones receiving Western propoganda - they are the ones who has a relative in tax office or housing office who gave this and that to Milosevic or cronies. You are right about how easy it is to find out things like hotel in Novi Sad. You have a duty to provide us with whole story not just one side of it.
Anna P nobody serious says that Milosevic was an angel that is right. You are right that it is something that the Serbian people saw with their own eyes. People like us or Andy must learn to seperate these accusations from trial at the Hague. If they (we) can not do that then we become something like mirror image of propogandists in West.
You are also right that Tito and Djindjic did same thing to the Serbian people. It is something like tradition for Serbian politicians to rob the people. It is the same everywhere to bigger or lesser level.
Andy you must learn to be a man but Im afraid you just be another pawn. I dont say this to insult just wish you think deeply before you launch propoganda campaign for SPS and against the West. If you continue like this you will help as a source of information but will be no better than any other source of information.
Anna Im interested in your experience in Serbia. Please share it with rest of us. Thanks.
Sasa Kapor
Yugoslavia - Tuesday July 08, 2003 at 8:51 pm
Sasa,Which Yugoslavia are you from?
ivko rig
the - Tuesday July 08, 2003 at 10:25 pm
Andy:First, I'd like to thank you for your tireless work in bring the truth about Yugoslavia to light. However, I need to note that you are a bit idolizing of both the Serbian people and of Milosevic. We are people, like any other, and if anything, we are a small people, with little power in shaping our historic destiny, yet centered at the battle ground of great powers, and often ending up as the victim. Please do not praise us in the way you have. It makes us embarassed, and is going into extremes. As for Milosevic, I think you should know that he is not a clean politician, he and his family are well known for their corruption, including Marko's gangsterlike behavior, opening up Bambiland park during great economic and political crisis, Mira Markovic was writing letters to Tony Blair during the bombing campaign weeping for the "suffering" of her poor children, etc....not a nice family, or very sane either. Milo was a thief, and had great ties with Dafina Milanovic, the pyramid scheme lady (together with Gazda Jezda). I think the best thing he can do now is to defend the Serbian nation to the best he can, not to wimp out and start making excuses, to be firm with his behavior as head of state and why he made decisions, to point out the crimes of others, the hypocrisies and illegalities of the tribunal, and further political, social, moral, cultural, and historical implications of the false trial assigned with the task of painting the picture of barbaric Serbia. That is the best he can do, and if he succeeds to any extent, his sins will be forgiven him by the people, and he will go down in Serbian history as a bittersweet memory. However, as a man, he is not virtuous, and I suggest you restrict yourself to pointing out the absurdity of the war crimes, genocide, etc. charges levelled against him, and leave the financial matters (which may or may not be true, but have no implications of collective guilt, and seem to be motivated at least in part by the political aspirations of DOS) to others.
P M
USA
