 MILOSEVIC TRIAL DISCUSSION ARCHIVE |
| JURIST >> LEGAL NEWS - WORLD LAW >> Discussion >> Milosevic Trial Discussion Archive |
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Former Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic is on trial for war crimes in the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia at The Hague. This marks the first time a head of state has been personally prosecuted before an international criminal court.
Is Slobodan Milosevic getting a fair trial?
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- discussion archive
- Monday June 09, 2003 at 5:06 am
Is anybody here able to get the audio/video feed from the tribunal?
Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States - Monday June 09, 2003 at 6:36 am
No, there is aholiday today at the Circus. It is called "Whit Day"
What a great civilisation!
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La - Monday June 09, 2003 at 6:42 am
I am delighted to learn the British people are trying to be democratic by marching on the street in great numbers opposing the war against Iraq.
They did not marched on the occasion of the war against Yugoslavia. It is a phony way of trying democratic ways, marching yes, marching not, depending on which war!
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La - Monday June 09, 2003 at 6:50 am
The British press and the Yank's (To the extend they can find the place on the map) is chocked to see Mugabe arresting the leader of the opposition for marching as well. What a blatant lack of democracy, not to be allowed to march demanding the overthrowing of the present government and the assassination of the president! Just imagine Farrakan with his 1 million followers marching and demanding the overthrow of the Bush administration and his assassination. Vive la Libertée !
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La - Monday June 09, 2003 at 6:50 am
c g
Shangri-La - Monday June 09, 2003 at 6:51 am
c g
Shangri-La - Monday June 09, 2003 at 7:14 am
"This country (Croatia), as well as some neighbouring countries, still bears the painful traces of the recent past. May those who have power in the civil and spiritual realm not grow tired of healing the wounds caused by a cruel war and of removing the consequences of a totalitarian regime which tried to enforce ideologies contrary to humanity and human dignity for too long.Croatia is proceeding on the way of freedom and democracy for the 13th year." - Pope John Paul II on HRT1 TV Zagreb on June 5th.
That damn Pope, he just couldn't resist insulting Yugoslavia and celebrating it's destruction, could he?
Apparently, for the Pope, "freedom and democracy" begin with Franjo Tudjman and the HDZ since that's who was coming to power 13 years ago.
During World War II there was a Catholic Archbishop named Stepinac. Here is a quote from him: "God, who directs the destiny of nations and controls the hearts of Kings, has given us Ante Pavelic and moved the leader of a friendly and allied people, Adolf Hitler, to use his victorious troops to disperse our oppressors... Glory be to God, our gratitude to Adolf Hitler and loyalty to our Poglavnik, Ante Pavelic."
In 1998 Pope John Paul II came to Croatia and beautified Stepinac, the same man who claimed that Hitler and Pavelic were heaven sent.
The Vatican helped Ustasha leadership to escape justice after the second world war. The Vatican Bank is still holding funds looted from Serbs by the Ustasha, and the same Vatican bank provided money for Croatia to purchase weapons which were used to kill Serbs during the 1991-1995 war.
So first the Vatican takes the Serbs' money and then the Vatican buys weapons for the Serbs' enemy with the stolen money.
After all of this, what credibility does this sanctimonious "man of God" have? What credibility does the Vatican have?
I heard that it was so hot during the Pope's appearances in Croatia that people were passing out from the heat. I hope that the Pope enjoys the heat because this last week in Croatia is nowhere near as hot as where he's going to be.
"The Serbs helping the Serbs. And that seems to be a crime. Why, then, is it not a crime that, for example, the Vatican provided money through the Vatican bank for the purchase of weapons for Croatia, by the same token? And then, as Serbia helped the Serbs, I am a criminal, and as the Vatican helped the Croats to perform secession by violent means, the Pope remains the Holy Father." - Slobodan Milosevic September 26 2002
Amen, Brother Slobodan.
P.S. I should point out that I have friends and family who are Catholic, and I love and respect them.
My problem is with the Vatican and the Pope in particular, not with the members of the Catholic church.
Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States - Monday June 09, 2003 at 7:15 am
HTML Correction.
Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States - Monday June 09, 2003 at 9:47 am
Dear Gogol, British people including myself did march against the war on Yugoslavia - admittedly in smaller numbers than those who protested against the Iraq war. Many British people are now questioning their support for Blair in 1999 since he has now been proven to be a liar.
Gerard Killoran
London
UK - Monday June 09, 2003 at 1:22 pm
Gerard thank you for your help.However, you can imagine the betrayal Serbs feel when talking about British people. On March 27, 1941 during the time when “Britain stood alone” and when almost whole Europe was under Hitler, Serbs got up, rejected pact with Hitler and said “Better grave than a slave”. Few weeks after Hitler attacked without declaration of war destroyed Kingdom of Yugoslavia and created an Independent State of Croatia. For the first time in their “thousand year” history Croatia had a state. The attack on Yugoslavia moved attack on Russia to June 22, which meant that Germans were caught in summer clothes in front of Moscow.
That "NO" that Serbs said to Hitler did help changing the tides of WWII. It cost Serbs almost a million people (600000 killed in Jasenovac alone). Now looking back at propaganda that BBC spread about Serbs, I personally wonder what would happened if.... The BBC, Blair and ultimately Britain did not give Serbs the benefit of the doubt. That was the smallest thing we deserved. On the other hand Germans helped Croatia for their contribution by helping then obtain their independence and expelling 300000 Serbs from their homes and land.
Couple days ago, Albanians killed a Serb family in Obilic/Kosovo. First they tortured them and then killed them and then burned their house. BBC did not report this, but extensively covered Pope trip to Croatia.
So at the end I really wonder that Serbs chose a wrong friend after all.
Dakic Ana
Serbia - Monday June 09, 2003 at 1:39 pm
Another thing that the BBC didn't report is that the massacre of that same Serbian family sent 400 Serbs from the same village fleeing for their lives to central Serbia.
Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States - Monday June 09, 2003 at 2:14 pm
How can anybody have a fair trial when the same people that creates an institution for a specific pourpouse violates those very same principles ,I.E:U.S.and pseudo allies in afghanistan and irak , and not only happy with this the United States seeke immunity for its army behavior placing themselves above the low and only in the hands of God , who by the way y have started to doubt its existence after seen the kind of "justice" that exists on the earth . Milan Prika Panama City , Rep of Panama
Milan Prika
Panama
Panama - Monday June 09, 2003 at 3:16 pm
There is in Miami a Panamanian, a certain General Noriega who knows all about the rule of American international law. Bush Vati went to war and invaded Panama killing about 2,000 poor innocent people to aprehend general Noriega who saved his neck by seeking protection at the Vatican's Embassy in Panama City. Years later, Bush Sony invaded Iraq to fetch rais Sadam el-Husseini, whom luckily for him might have got the idea ahead of time and vanished. Those Bushes are truly of the finest conquering material.
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La - Monday June 09, 2003 at 8:04 pm
Once again I am compelled to come to the defense of Croatia and the Catholic Church, both historically and in present time against the provocative and incorrect assults of posters, D. Jovanovic and Andy Wilcoxson. Mr. Wilcoxson, please provide the source for your quote attributed to Cardinal Stepinac. Thank you.
Jenny Morningstar
Babylon
USA - Monday June 09, 2003 at 8:08 pm
Jenny,
I am sorry to break it to you, but it seems you're ready for a crash course in Yugoslavia's history. Just a word of friendly advice.
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La - Monday June 09, 2003 at 8:30 pm
The quote from Stepinac came from the publication Nedelja dated April 27, 1941.
Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States - Monday June 09, 2003 at 9:58 pm
Ana, again, where did you find a number of 300,000 Serbs expelled from CroatiaI am sorry I really have to correct you once more, as I did in my post from Friday March 28:
http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/boards/milosevic/issue_milo_discussmar28-3103.php
Please, read that post again and visit all the supplied links.
Pero Peric
Canada - Monday June 09, 2003 at 10:18 pm
JennyUp until 1991/2 a drive through the backroads of Croatia & Dalmatia & Slavonia would be punctuated every dozen km or so by a stone marker or monument.
These markers had a horrific similarity......for they would list the names of individuals murdered for simply being Orthodox Christian, all during the time of the NDH.
Today most of these markers have been defaced, destroyed, or removed in a blatent effort to whitewash the NDH crimes.
For example, there used to be a moving monument to the first victims of the NDH and arguably the first victims of the WWII holocaust.
This monument was in Gudovac and memorialized the April day when some 300 innocent villagers were machined gunned in a meadow, simply for the crime of belonging to the Orthodox Catholic faith. The Gudovac memorial has been destroyed.
There is little chance that the current government in Zagreb will rebuild the destroyed monument in Gudovac.
One wonders, though why another monument in Slunj built in 1996 is protected by Zagreb. This new monument glorifies the Ustashe Blackshirts. Every weekend, one can see people who have driven many hours who pay homage to their Ustashe blackshirts.
As long as the current government in Zagreb refuses to come to grips with the NDH, Croatia & Dalmatia will remain isolated from the civilized world.
AP V
NY
NY - Tuesday June 10, 2003 at 1:20 am
A couple of useful websites:http://vaticanbankclaims.com
Outlines how the vatican bank laundered funds stolen from holocaust victims, and is still keeping the stolen money!http://www.pavelicpapers.com
Has a large collection of documents from intellegence services outlining how the Vatican aided the escape of Nazi war criminals from Yugoslavia after the war.The Vatican's conduct has been totally indefensible.
Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States - Tuesday June 10, 2003 at 3:25 am
AP V:Civilised World?
Just which planets have you been visiting?
... and how did you get there ... ?
Andy, the guy who runs the pavelicpapers web-site has received several death-threats, some of which he considers credible. I think I posted something on this a while ago.
Ah, la change, la change c'est toute la meme chose.
Fascists never change. Only thing they understand seems to me is there own methods: Take 'em out and shoot 'em. Trouble is there's an awful lot of them now ... some leaders of some
major countries ... perhaps ... ?
Dennis Revell
USA - Tuesday June 10, 2003 at 3:28 am
html correction ... may be ...
D R
USA - Tuesday June 10, 2003 at 3:35 am
Andy, here it is:-death treats
D R
USA - Tuesday June 10, 2003 at 3:53 am
"THEIR own methods ... "Hell, more like that and folks'll start to think I went to school in America ...
;-)
Dennis Revell
USA - Tuesday June 10, 2003 at 6:48 am
Pero, My mistake. I was trying to be "coservative"
Dakic Ana
Serbia - Tuesday June 10, 2003 at 6:52 am
The insert from the Zagreb newspapers “Katolicki Tjedink” (Catholic Weekly) dated August 31, 1941:“ Now God has decided to use other means. He will set up missions: European missions, world missions. They will be upheld not by priests, but by army commanders, led by Hitler. The sermons will be heard with the help of cannons, thanks and bombers. The language of this sermons will be international.”
Dakic Ana
Serbia - Tuesday June 10, 2003 at 7:31 am
Is W "GOTOV JE"!http://larouchepub.com/other/2003/3023waxman_ltr.html
vytas abrutis
phila
PA usa - Tuesday June 10, 2003 at 9:07 am
The "trial" was back in session today.When was the last time that a witness testified there under his own name anyway?
First they had C-47 come back and he said that the stated goal of the Chetniks was to overthrow Milosevic.
Then C-47 talked about alleged crimes allegedly committed by Chetniks.
After C-47, they brought in C-17 and he talked about the fighting around Mostar, and in particular about a camp there where Chetniks and Krajina Red Berets were based.
I couldn't help but notice that the prosecution didn't say the Krajina Red Berets, the prosecution simply called them the Red Berets. I think that by doing that they were intentionally trying to create the false impression that this was the JSO from Serbia who was in Mostar.
Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States - Tuesday June 10, 2003 at 9:25 am
I don't see what either of these last 2 witnesses have to do with Milosevic. The prosecution is wasting time. They don't deserve 100 more days. It is obvious that they don't have any evidence.The only thing that the prosecution has managed to prove is that they don't have a case. Their indictment is nothing but an insane consperacy theory. I think that Milosevic was being generous when he said that the indictment was "written at the intellectual level of a seven-year-old child -- or rather - let me correct myself - a retarded seven-year-old."
In my opinion a retarded seven-year-old could probably do a better job than the prosecution.
Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States - Tuesday June 10, 2003 at 12:25 pm
Dakic Ana, Thank you for the link. I wanted to get the book from the Library because I don't have much time online. The ENTIRE multnomah Co. Library does NOT have even ONE copy. Luckily I found it on the InterLibrary Loan.I used to be a Catholic. This is just ONE of the reasons I no longer am. There are too many more to enumerate here.
On another note, the Associated Press:SAN JUAN, Puerto Rico - Guantanamo officials are working on plans to provide a courtroom, a prison and an *execution* chamber if the order comes to try terror suspects at the base in Cuba, the mission commander said.
* mine
Hopefully these 'suspects' will get a fairer trial than Milosevic. Not very likely though. You can just hear the old refrain, "State Security". Means, 'witnesses' denoted by number. Lots and lots of 'hearsay'. etc. etc. etc.
Shame on the United States of America.
Rebecka Justice
Portland
OR - Tuesday June 10, 2003 at 12:36 pm
Rebeca There is nothing wrong with being the catholic. I think that you should explore depths of your spirituality any way you find fit. I met many good catholic people that enriched my life and advanced my own Orthodox religious feeling. The best way to serve justice is to educate. Let people know. Let your own parish know. And if there is a critical mass changes will happen.
Dakic Ana
Serbia - Tuesday June 10, 2003 at 2:03 pm
Dakic Ana, I am not judging anyone else's beliefs. I simply do not believe in any of the Catholic Church's messages. I did explore and found too many glitches.There are good people in each and every religion known to man. My search just led me far away from the Catholic Church. Has nothing to do with individual people who may be Catholic.
Rebecka Justice
Portland
OR - Tuesday June 10, 2003 at 4:14 pm
On Rush talk radio today, a caller said that Clinton lied and bombed Serbia, claiming ethnic cleansing and genocide on the part of Serbia. He asked, if Clinton could lie, with less than 2000 graves found, and get away with it, why not Bush with his WMD reason?Rush said that Clinton probably did lie but Bush did not! Rush said there never was evidence of genocide or ethnic cleansing then, and even today.
I wonder how the 'prosecution', DelPonte, Nice and May, is going to counter this. Rush has 15 million listeners.
J, P
USA,Wis - Tuesday June 10, 2003 at 4:15 pm
Vera Martinovic unfortunatly I dont keep newspapers and magazines from the old days but of course nobody said bad things about Tito or if they did they were in trouble. But to say bad things about a leader is not opposition. Opposition is to be against policy of the leader or government. There were articles that I really do remember mostly just after death of Tito which were critical of the government policy. There was also earlier periods under TITO notable were the PRAXIS and alternative ideas to ones said by Communist leadership. As you know media was freer than all of East Europe in this time. Only Poland sometimes had what our Yugoslav media had. It was a time that speaking in relatives, journalism was not in such bad shape as it became during Milosevic and today.Further to the elections of 2000. Despite some people saying that Milosevic never stole an election, even though we know different 1996 and it is irrelevant if it was local or national. Still makes Milosevic a thief. It interests me when you say that we had at least 10 lets say non government media in Belgrade. Again, to spout venom is not really opposition to Milosevic. But I cant remember more than 3 or 4 at most non government during election campaign of 2000. There was no B92 and no opposition TV station in this time either. You probably didnt mean 10 media in this time but I also dont remember there ever being at least 10 media in Belgrade ever. So please could you list them for me. And please do not list Danas and Nasa Borba at the same time because as we know they didnt exist at the same time. What I dont understand is why you defend Milosevic on the point of media since our experience must have been similar. If you arent happy now you can not have been happy then either.
Maybe the definition of poetic justice is incorrect but thought it was to have a method used against your enemies come back to you. In my earlier post I said something about the kind of society we had under Milosevic. A political trial in a court. A political decision in a court. Are we talking about Milosevic trial or are we talking about OTOPOR members from Pozarevac? Or maybe other sham cases to do with Public Information Law that used to happen in Serbia almost every week. Why should we give justice to those who did not give justice when they was in charge? Does he even expect justice? Of course he does not because if he had the chance he would do the same in his own political court. Imagine a trial of Clinton in Belgrade if Milosevic remained in power. Do we imagine that he would recieve a fair trial by Milosevic appointed judges, lawyers and so on? Do we imagine that the media would give him a fair trial? Oh we know he's guilty? Yes just like the West knows that Milosevic is guilty. It would be even worse than the Hague and his guilt or not guilty irrelevant. Just like the Hague, so next time we watch Milosevic act all civilised in this barbaric political court let us remember who this man is.
But no we do not agree. Milosevic will not be remembered for the trial, he will be remembered as mainstream remember him (if you watch Olja on Klopka) as one who brought Serbia down to the knees politicaly and economically. Patriots would remember him in case he did not let them down in Bosnia and Croatia but after the court finishes they will only remember betrayal not trial. Rest of society too worried about economy which was ruined under his policy.
Unfortunatly you are right about the way mud will stick to the Serbs. That mud is there now whatever happens at Hague but as opponant of Milosevic I dont care what other people say. The majority who supported him used to make us feel like freaks, spies and so on. Now its outsiders who might think this about us. What do we care when we cant even afford to go on a holiday? But if we are old enough we remember the time we used to go on holiday. It was before Milosevic. Maybe he was just unlucky or maybe he was just complete loser who ruined Serbia and Yugoslavia.
S Radovanovic
S - Tuesday June 10, 2003 at 4:44 pm
Yes Milosevic was working with the CIA. That is hard to accept but not such controversy. Most Yugoslavs had one sponsor or another one. We know of Tudjman and Kucan. Milosevic agreed to cooperate with Americans when they knew of his relationship and influence with Stambolic in the days when he was banking.Dayton was a way to try to make the link again but the problem was that without nationalist vote Milosevic was in trouble. In the end the US probably cut him off. Milosevic was too stupid and thought that since his brother was KGB that Russians would save him. In that way Milosevic thought he was mini Tito with US and Russians got on his side. He knew the model of action of Tito well and tried to use that. We saw what happened when Russians finally gave up supporting him.
More facts Aco Tomic KGB, Momcilo Perisic CIA. They even continued the cold war in Belgrade recently when Perisic was arrested. The funny thing was and maybe Vera can agree with this is that Milosevic knew that Perisic was CIA and moved him away and then brought him back and the same is said for the DOS government but then DOS always were pro west.
Yes Yugoslavia was interfered with from the outside. But no, not in the way most opponants of the Hague are saying. Milosevic was in the beginning Western stooge who thought he could please all his masters. In the time he was accusing his opponants of colluding with NATO etc etc it was bitter irony that it was him and all those generals who were selling us and not the Serbian people.
This may be grandfather of conspiracy stories but imagine damage it would do to west. Another sponsor gone wrong. They gambled that Milosevic ego is bigger than risk of sending him to court. He would never tell the truth or the Serbian people would know him for what he is. That way we dont learn truth and in some sick way both Milosevic and West is happy.
They deserve each other.
A Radovanovic
S - Tuesday June 10, 2003 at 5:29 pm
Very bad pays the devil all those who well serve him Somoza in Nicaragua Torrijos and Noriega in Panama Milosevic in Yugoslavia Pinochet in chile Hussein in Iraq Marcos in philippines The list can go on and on and on
Milan Prika
Panama
Rep of Panama - Tuesday June 10, 2003 at 7:38 pm
RadovanovicYour 'facts' and conclusions are incoherent ramblings at best. I doubt that you could follow a cheap mystery movie if somebody intelligent explained it to you as you watched. Please give up trying to educate those of us who can.
Joel Aksamit
Cleveland Mo
USA - Tuesday June 10, 2003 at 8:53 pm
When the West (America and its followers) can't get what they want by fear, force, and threats, they'll try manipulation. And, even when self- determining legal entities like Canada chooses not to participate with them, they then include them in the grouping of countries who they wish to manipulate: "I am disappointed in Canada!" The inference is clear: they expect us to be on their team, regardless of or in spite of the opinions of our own independent citizenry.Mr Radovanovic It is obvious to me that justice to you is spelled “REVENGE’. You write “why should we give justice to those who did not give justice when they was in charge?” With a question like this you don’t understand the meaning of justice. Dispensing justice your way, nothing will ever change. You obviously believe in tribal justice like the Albanians in Kosovo or the peasants in Montenegro. Hang your bloody shirt on top of your house until the vendetta is satisfied that is your justice. Wake up! The other choice you have is to take a higher moral ground and treat others the way you want to be treated.
Mr. Radovanovic you also write “What do we care when we cant even afford to go on a holiday?” WOW! Roll up your sleeves my friend and see where that gets you. Mr. Radovanovic if you have to eat stinging nettle, acorns, ‘iglica’ and scroba (sorry non Slavs I don’t know the English for these items which I ate as a child) and even Sh-t is better than what the West is done to you. Where the hell is your pride? All you care about is a friggin holiday when you should care about your honor and Joel Aksamit is right, you provide zilch evidence and all you do is babble.
Walter Trkla
Kamloops BC
Canada - Tuesday June 10, 2003 at 9:03 pm
It is hard to believe anyone in the days leading to Dayton would trust the Russians under the leadership of Yeltzin, when he himself was the West truly and faithful stooge.
In fact Yeltsin was removed from power and forced to appoint Putin precisely because of NATO (the US really) having its way on Yugoslavia. Now that the US has announced her intentions to re-deploy her troops from Germany in the Caucuses and Central Asia, invading a country or two in the process I wonder how shrewd Vladimir Putin would be, because they wouldn't fool me, these Yanks and their geo-political games, we know who they are after, no fog is thick enough to hide a fifth of the earth!
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La - Tuesday June 10, 2003 at 9:57 pm
The champions of justice or is it only LAW?
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La - Tuesday June 10, 2003 at 10:03 pm
"We are dismayed that the European Union would actively seek to undermine U.S. efforts."
The efforts to undemine the ICC, mind you!
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La - Tuesday June 10, 2003 at 11:36 pm
Gogol, perhaps you've misunderstood: I didn't write the report of BHHRG myself, they did; I only spoke with them for few hours (they spoke with many others) and they've incorporated one or two of my opinions into their article, in the form of 'some believe that…' and they quoted JURIST forum twice. As regards the Kirov murder reference, well, I do think it has to be understood 'in these latitudes' as well. Particularly the people from the US should not be underestimated nor spared the opportunity to learn the basics of the political vocabulary. People who pretend to understand the global implications of the political events should adopt Kirov example just like, say, Cesar's murder. The latter is a symbol of a conspiracy murder by one's political partners, a betrayal, a coup; the former is a murder used by a regime (that of Stalin in this particular case) as a pretext to purge its political opponents. The BHHRG people heard that Kirov reference while talking to Kostunica and put it both into their report and in that John Laughland's piece 'Why Bombs Don't Make Democracies?'.Let me address a participant here in the third person singular, because I don't even know to whom I'm responding: to Sinisa, to S. or to A. Radovanovic. Nevertheless I'll try my best to be polite and answer, although his 'arguments' are becoming repetitive and quite pointless. Just check some of it: 'Why should we give justice to those who did not give justice when they was in charge?' Well, simply because a trial is about 'giving justice'. Maybe he would have preferred a quick execution? I'll just stop here, because the man himself plainly stated: 'That mud is there now whatever happens at Hague but as opponant of Milosevic I dont care what other people say.' Since he doesn't care, I shall not say anything anymore to him. I do understand, however, how silly he must feel after being tricked and used by DOS in that staged 'revolution'. I'm sorry that 'the majority who supported him used to make us feel like freaks, spies and so on.' I don't think it's freaks and spies that applies to the genuine street protestors, it is suckers that is a more appropriate term. And I believe it was not about supporting Milosevic in that situation (just as it is not now), but about supporting the institutions and the state itself that had been attacked by the 'revolutionary methods' of Velja Ilic & thugs. Will S. or A. measure them with the same yardstick? Perhaps DOS and himself deserve each other?
For the benefit of others who might be interested, let me list just some of the Belgrade media which were actively promoting anti-regime policies (and not just attacking Milosevic ad hominem) at one point or another during the years 'under Milosevic': DNEVNI TELEGRAF, DANAS, BLIC, GLAS JAVNOSTI (dailies); VREME, NIN (weeklies); B92, Studio B, INDEX (TV and radio stations); BETA, FONET (news agencies). What they were promoting strangely coincided with their foreign sponsors' policies. The 'former regime' did clumsily and stupidly try to suppress only some of them, made them pay fines for slanders, closed some premises temporarily (B92 being a famous case in point), but that didn't last, because of the strong pressure from abroad to which the regime had been susceptible as a truly dictatorial one would never be, and because of the strong financial support from abroad to these media. All of these media still exist and are no more independent and democratic than they were before. I don't defend the media situation 'under Milosevic' nor do I compare it with that 'under Tito' (it's incomparable; Warsaw-Pact Poland vs. Tito's Yugoslavia are another story altogether) , I only want to point out that media opposing the official policies existed and that they were not free not because the SPS government suppressed their freedom, but because they were paid for from abroad. The ineffective and random attempts at suppressing came as a result of that.
Vera Martinovic
Belgrade
Yugoslavia - Wednesday June 11, 2003 at 1:22 am
< A HREF="http://www.fff.org/freedom/fd0307d.asp">http://www.fff.org/freedom/fd0307d.asp
Ian Davis
Waterloo
Ontario, Canada - Wednesday June 11, 2003 at 3:25 am
www.fff.org/freedom/fd0307d.asp
HTML Correction
Hopefully - Wednesday June 11, 2003 at 5:54 am
International Court of Justice aka the real Hague Courthttp://www.icj-cij.org/icjwww/idocket/iyuk/iyukframe.htm
click on the section titled "orders" each of the 9 Judges ruling on Provisional Measures (aka; stopping NATO bombing immediately) is listed.
It is very illuminating to read the individual Judges rulings. Recall that 4 of 9 Judges sided with Yugoslavia. And Recall that Provisional Measures are a radical concept for the ICJ which tends to count time in decades rather than in days.
One can conclude that the Agressor states are correct in being worried about Yugoslavia's lawsuit.
------------
Dennis
note I said civilized world not civilized states
AP V
NY
NY - Wednesday June 11, 2003 at 6:57 am
Vera,
Your point is well taken and I would be the first to rejoice if my political analysis and commentaries could include references to Kirov, (not bad Kostunica!) Bukharin, Caesar, Richard III or even some of my old relatives like Roland. It is just that I am very much aware of the political culture in these latitudes where things, people and figures get easily confused, here in our own forum we find often deep misunderstandings, where one end of the political spectrum is confused with the other, or where Vietnamese is confused with Algerian, supporters with solicitors and political opposition with self adulation. Even, as I posted above Sania was surprised by the West's reactions in swallowing her husbands lies about the gulag.
There is of course a way to look at it, not entirely deprived of merit, when the mafia, the criminals, organized crime was behind the murder of the prime minister since is it not what rules in Serbia this well financed, rehearsed, controlled chaos , is it not the first stage of the transformation many countries have to endure whether ex-USSR, Yugoslavia or now Iraq?
I did not think you wrote the story.
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La - Wednesday June 11, 2003 at 7:29 am
it just occurred to me Kostunica, the erudite that he is, could have used another metaphor away from the lugubrious machination of Stalin in his Kremlin in addressing his Western visitors, he could have made a comparison with the assassination of a tall giant in history, John F. Kennedy. Or, if it just a matter of betrayal the very pieznie of Kosovo could have provided a good example, a truly educational one to the Westerners illustrating how like in many other national cultures, literature popular or other wise can provide the unity, the solace in times of national adversity to keep the spirit for centuries. I bet you the NGO's are not pushing for the learning of the songs.
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La - Wednesday June 11, 2003 at 11:40 am
Bloody cheek!“Still, the American billionaire, George Soros, intervened to convince Belgrade that it was in its interest to support the independence of Kosovo. And while he was on his mission in Belgrade, it was announced in Pristina that the authorities of the international commission were being transferred to the local authorities in Kosovo.
But so far, each side is ignoring the facts on the ground. Serbia must recognize all the changes that have taken place since 1999, and that there is no way of going back to the situation that existed before that date. Serbia must learn how to "cooperate" with Kosovo and not to "interfere" in Kosovo, as the international administration said in it report, which is highly critical of Belgrade. The same applies to the Serbian minority in Kosovo.” By Mohammad Aranaout of Dar Al-Hayat, Saudi Arabia. 10 June 2003
What happened to UN Resolution 1244, which was designed to save Blair and his fellow cluster-bombers from even greater jeopardy of prosecution for war crimes than they now enjoy?
Didn’t Blair smash up Iraq because Iraq ‘did not honour UN resolutions’: what staggering hypocrisy from Holy Tony who according to Bruiser Prescott ‘never tells lies’?
Let us remind ourselves of what Blair aka Trust-me Tony, this self styled moral paragon, agreed. Here are parts 4 through eight of Annex 2:
The international security presence with substantial North Atlantic Treaty Organization participation must be deployed under unified command and control and authorized to establish a safe environment for all people in Kosovo and to facilitate the safe return to their homes of all displaced persons and refugees.
Establishment of an interim administration for Kosovo as a part of the international civil presence under which the people of Kosovo can enjoy substantial autonomy within the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, to be decided by the Security Council of the United Nations. The interim administration to provide transitional administration while establishing and overseeing the development of provisional democratic self-governing institutions to ensure conditions for a peaceful and normal life for all inhabitants in Kosovo.
After withdrawal, an agreed number of Yugoslav and Serbian personnel will be permitted to return to perform the following functions:
* Liaison with the international civil mission and the international security presence
* Marking/clearing minefields
* Maintaining a presence at Serb patrimonial sites
* Maintaining a presence at key border crossingsSafe and free return of all refugees and displaced persons under the supervision of the Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees and unimpeded access to Kosovo by humanitarian aid organizations.
A political process towards the establishment of an interim political framework agreement providing for substantial self-government for Kosovo, taking full account of the Rambouillet accords and the principles of sovereignty and territorial integrity of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and the other countries of the region, and the demilitarization of UCK. Negotiations between the parties for a settlement should not delay or disrupt the establishment of democratic self-governing institutions.
The sections in heavy type are those on which no or little progress had been made in more than four years in so far as the minority populations are concerned.
Some 2,500 of the minorities and loyal Kosovars have been murdered or abducted presumed murdered and continue to be so treated. Some 250,000 are not able to return to Kosovo. Some 100,000 of their homes have been sequestered or destroyed. Patrimonial sites: between 100 and 200 have been and continue to be destroyed or damaged.
As this disgusting catalogue of denial continues Blair’s only interest is for his lawyers Nice and May to secure Milosevic’s conviction as the cause of all this devastation in order to mask his own crimes.
Soros seeks to abrogate an international agreement: ‘It would be in the Serbs interests for Kosovo to be Independent’ he claims, not mentioning anything about international currency speculator Soros’s financial interests.
Tell that to the hundreds of thousands who have had their homes and land stolen or destroyed. Tell that to the tens of thousands of the relatives of those murdered and missing. Tell that to the 250,000 refugees. Tell that to the tens of thousands now living in fear in Kosovo. This is the truth about democracy: some of us like Soros are to be more ‘democratic’ than others it seems? It just depends upon how many billions you have!
(-: As my Grandmother used to say: ‘Never trust a man with a palindromic name’ :-)
Peter Taylor
Herts/UK - Wednesday June 11, 2003 at 3:22 pm
Well that was bitter reaction. Maybe the truth hurts. But carefully avoiding the allegations as nobody will address them.Studio B was sometimes under control of so called opposition but also under control of the government and of Seselj for period. They cannot be included as opposition that received funds from Soros either. Money came from Belgrade city council. Radio Index existed only later and had a transmitter so weak that even in Belgrade it was problematic listening. Add to that the fact that signal from B92 was jammed and it was closed down in 2000 and replaced by phantom government controlled B92 just like Borba. BETA and FONET were agencies not media available for the public. Danas might have published news from agencies but thats in 1 newspaper. Even on the internet (for about 10 percent who might have that) FONET never made any reports. Reports were impossible for public to access in direct way.
Happy that you spoke of Dnevni Telegraf. To go on Dnevni Telegraf was also banned in 1998 by the Milosevic government. As Vera knows the owner of the paper was Slavko Curuvija who was assasinated. The government also banned Danas for a period. The same supposed Soros Western lackey Danas that protested NATO bombing by publicaly stopping print in protest. Blic did not exist until the mid 90's and Glas only exited for 2 years before Milosevic was thrown out. Index was not a TV station either unlike Vera states. In fact the only real claim Vera can make about free media in time of Milosevic is using Vreme as an example. It is true they somehow didnt have so many problems.
Its possible to go on and on. The court cases are all there. The fines, the paper supply shortage supplied by the government that only happened to opposition newspapers.
To sum up we have government under Milosevic a media that was controlled using number of ways including biased court process, murder, closing of radio stations and newspapers. This is matter of record and is available for anybody who want to know. No excuses under Milosevic there was no free media and I wonder why Vera is trying to present false picture. If Vera you want to dispute anything above then do so. If not then you must admit we did not have anything like a free media.
S Radovanovic
S - Wednesday June 11, 2003 at 3:37 pm
Mr. RadovanovicWhere did DOS spend all the money that came from US, Germany, UK and Soros? Or that information is still not available in Serbia?
Pero Peric
Canada - Wednesday June 11, 2003 at 6:57 pm
Free Media Aha, in Yankee land to be free is meant to be owned by a private individual or a corporation. Anything receiving public money is condemned as controlled. So, following this logic it is perfectly acceptable for an American company to buy a number of radio stations, newspapers, TV networks in say South Africa and begin to promote American products, way of life, cultural icons and any trash suitable to the investors in this corporation. Shall the South Africa government find the activities of this corporations in violation of local laws, customs and tell it so would bring the most vociferous protests from the US government in defense of freedom of the press .
I remember, helas long ago, in a large European nation, when the State financed the regional press, news papers effectively barring the large conglomerators swallowing them and pushing their commercial, political or other ideas down the throat of the locals. Freedom of the press begins by protecting the weak from the merciless giants.
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La - Wednesday June 11, 2003 at 7:38 pm
S Radovanovicdoes France have a free media ?
does England have a free media ?
does America have a free media ?
and I am still waiting for the answer was Milosevic more corrupt than Bush, Blair, Schroeder, Thaci, Clark, Albright, Cook, et. al ?
AP V
NY
NY - Wednesday June 11, 2003 at 8:29 pm
I wonder how helpful it is for those of us in the West who seek justice to take blindful refuge in a moral higher ground. Okay, certainly the destruction of a sovereign nation is worse than the typical corruption Milosevic was guilty of (controlling the press, elections, etc - same as in the "free" west). We know that. But in the final analysis, who's really correct? Those of us in the West obsessed with the injustice wrought on Serbia and Serbians? Or Serbians like S. Radovanovic who have to live with the concequences of Milosevic's gambit? Is a man to be judged by his intentions and actions or by his accomplishments? I don't know the answer. I hope and pray Milosevic succeeds in putting NATO on trial. But overall, what has he really accomplished beyond bringing poverty and despair to Serbia? So far, very little.
josef crow
New York
NY - Wednesday June 11, 2003 at 8:53 pm
Aha, so every-time a country falls under the military pray of a super power her leaders have to take responsibility for their defeat?
The Vichy regime thought so also and tried the French leaders responsible for the debacle at the hands of Hitler's invading armies, Leon Blum was blamed for the defeat of France by the collaborators with Hitler, "you forced us to collaborate by not having defeated the Nazis, therefor you're guilty". The trial not unlikely Mr. Milosevices did not go well for Blum's prosecutors and had to be stopped since public opinion reacted much in his favor and against Vichy. Leon Blum was deported to Buchenwald, survived the war and died in his native France in 1952.
Just to quote a little: "History repeats itself, first as a tragedy, then as a farce"
Obviously gospodin May has not read the transcripts of the trial of Leon Blum; he should.
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La - Wednesday June 11, 2003 at 9:04 pm
Look: another example of what free press is about to do:
"Cars formed traffic jams with horns blaring as people tried to get to the area after U.S.-based Iranian exile satellite television stations gave news of the protests."Incidentally this is taking place according to the plan announced by the US weeks ago. free press as a weapon.
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La - Wednesday June 11, 2003 at 9:08 pm
The protests follow increasingly tough rhetoric aimed at Tehran from Washington, which accuses Iran of developing nuclear weapons and sponsoring terrorism -- charges Tehran denies. U.S. hawks have called for action to destabilize clerical rule.
Secretary of State Colin Powell said Washington was working to persuade Iranians to force change from within to make Iran what he called a less troublesome member of the world community.
Washington, which cut ties with Tehran after the 1979 revolution, has branded Iran part of an "axis of evil," along with North Korea and -- formerly -- Iraq
How is otpor said in Farsi?
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La - Wednesday June 11, 2003 at 9:42 pm
alas, you miss the point. History is written by the victors. Blum is a hero because Nazi Germany lost the war. I do hope that Milosevic survives long enough to see a similar fate. Yet, we lie to ourselves to deny the fact that Milosevic took a huge gamble by challenging the West, and lost. The people of Serbia lost as well and will continue to lose ad nauseum until, or rather if, such time that history is rewritten. You and I may believe with every bone in our bodies that Serbia and the Serbian people were dealt a horrible injustice. But such is the rule of the jungle at this time and I do believe it's fair to hold Milosevic accountable for being naive enough to think he could win. In other words, here in New York, if a man stands up to the mafia, refuses to pay up, etc, and his family is massacred, is it a terrible injustice? Of course it is. But would you call this man brave? No. You'd call him an idiot or worse. And that's the point that we all here deny when we ridicule S Radovanovic.
josef crow
New York
NY - Wednesday June 11, 2003 at 10:11 pm
Josef,
Poor Blum was no hero, but that did not stop the people to see the injustice and the farce behind the trial. Both things are not mutually exclusive.
Your argument was used by the Nazis in occupied Serbia and France for every German killed brought the shooting of many hostages. These very same argument has been made here in favor of Mihajlovic who in order to protect his people did not spill Nazi blood while his King lived in London. If there is not resistance, if when the gloves are off you stop the fight, your struggle what is it all for? Do you really believe Milosevic was acting alone, in isolation from the Yugoslav peoples or was he fighting for its survival, or is it perhaps that the Westerner does not understand the meaning of Yugoslavia in its national and international sense?
This resisting should not to be confused with national suicide, but that is another story. Look at the Iraqi people now and the way the press and US officials are explaining their resistance, quite familiar is isn't?
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La - Wednesday June 11, 2003 at 11:54 pm
joesef; I can only weep as your neocons wreak havic on the world in the name of peace. We must all submit or suffer the fate of the Afgans, Serbs, on and on.World domination will come at a terrible price, "as Hitler would tell you" but how much must the rest of us suffer before the death in the bunker that is sure to come to your wouldbe kings of the world?
Pertti Lindroos
Quesnel
BC Canada