 MILOSEVIC TRIAL DISCUSSION ARCHIVE |
| JURIST >> LEGAL NEWS - WORLD LAW >> Discussion >> Milosevic Trial Discussion Archive |
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Former Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic is on trial for war crimes in the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia at The Hague. This marks the first time a head of state has been personally prosecuted before an international criminal court.
Is Slobodan Milosevic getting a fair trial?
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- discussion archive
- Thursday June 12, 2003 at 12:07 am
Tell me, if the Nazis had decided to kill 1000 Serbs for every Nazi killed, would you have advocated resistance? How about 10,000 or 100,000 Serbs? Surely you must admit there are times when resistance against the empire is futile, just as there are times when resistance is imperative. The responsibility of a true leader is to knows the difference between these situations and to act accordingly without consideration of their own personal ego, agenda, career or personal gain. Just as Josef Kaztner is guilty of leading his people to slaughter by advocating NO resisting, it's quite possible Milosevic is guilty of confusing his own ego, agenda, career and personal gain in leading his own people to slaughter in futile resistance with the West. I don't know the answer, but I think this is the point S. Radovanovic is trying to make. It's a valid arguement and it irks me and I think we get nowhere by lying to ourselves and denying someone who's lived through it all the right to dissent from the higher moral ground.
josef crow
New York
NY - Thursday June 12, 2003 at 12:26 am
Look. I hate this neocon bullshit as much as everyone here. We're living in very dangerous times. Perhaps there was something that qualifies as a real press in the time of the Vichy Blum trial. Somehow people were able to determine that Blum was making a vigorous defence, whence the Nazis shut the trial down. Look what's happening today. Milosevic is making mincemeat out of this kangaroo court and it matters nada. I repeat, Nada. And this is what I see as the most important cause we have. I don't know the answer. But I would argue that until time that a critical mass of people are actually able to hear a real discussion of what goes on in the world, more Serbias and Iraqs are bound to happen and God help the victims.
josef crow
New York
NY - Thursday June 12, 2003 at 1:24 am
Speaking up is less pernicious than silence.
If 1,000, 10,000 or 100,000 have to die then I think they better fight than to die in silence!
The victims of the Nazis had nearly zero chance of surviving once caught in the machinery of decimation unless they escaped increasing their chances to more than half.
The French resistance made a difference, the Yugoslav partisans made a difference, Mr. Milosevic is making a difference and the intended effect of his trial has already failed.
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La - Thursday June 12, 2003 at 1:57 am
S Radovanovic,The fact that B-92 oprated at all says volumes about the Government of Serbia. Any other government in the world would have refused to issue them a licence to broadcast.
A station like B-92 certainly wouldn't be permitted to operate in the United States or Canada.
I work for an American TV station near the Canadian border, and I am familiar with the FCC and CRTC regulations.
Broadcast stations operating on foreign funds are illegal in the USA and Canada. If they catch you operating a broadacast station with foreign money they will revoke your licence, if you broadcast without a licence, they will throw you in jail and confiscate your equipment.
Maybe you were't happy with the state of the media under Milosevic, but name me a country that did better.
Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States - Thursday June 12, 2003 at 3:02 am
Mr. Crow, Mr. Radovanovic is wrong and so are you. You know very well that nothing will ever change unless someone says no. You want the Serbs to be obedient Jews and march into the gas chamber? Did twenty five million Russians die in vain in the last war? The Americans are not burning Jews but they are killing Serbs, Iraqis, Afghanis and Palestinians and as Martin Nemoller stated you could be next so you better say something
Walter Trkla
Kamloops BC
Canada - Thursday June 12, 2003 at 6:21 am
Josef CrowHow did President Milosevic & the SPS try to 'win' against the War Party ?
In my point of view, until 1998, he seemed to retreat from pretty much every single War Party attack.
There is a school of thought which posits, that it was waffleing on the part of pro-Yugoslavs which signaled to the War Party there were easy pickings to be had.
Most Serbs damn Milosevic for not resisting the War Party enough
AP V
NY
NY - Thursday June 12, 2003 at 9:06 am
Dear Mr. Craw
I think that unfortunately, no Serbian president, regardless of his political orientation could prevent what happened to the Serbs, It seems obvious to me that certain big powers decided quite some time ago that Serbs are obstacle and accordingly heave to be made as weak as possible. Some other (smaller = potentially more manageable) ethnical groups in the region were made stronger.
In that situation appeasement from the Serb side wouldn't work either. Look for example at the ex-Yu republic of Macedonia. In fact, there were many instances where he tried to compromise even if that meant (for the Serbs) paying the heavy price, but it wasn't enough for the masters of the universe, only almost complete destruction and humiliation would do.
I don't think that S. Milosevic resisted for his personal gain. If that was his only goal it was much easier to achieve by working for the empire and sale his country as many others did.
By the way, I appreciate very much your interest en efforts to get to know the truth. I would also like to express my deep gratitude to all of you who made this extraordinary forum possible.
Rade Plecas Amsterdam The Netherlands
Rade Plecas
Amsterdam
The Netherlands - Thursday June 12, 2003 at 10:15 am
Give us the evidence you're a criminal!
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La - Thursday June 12, 2003 at 12:00 pm
Cogent factsSource: ‘Chronology of the Crisis in Kosovo’ Reuters 24 March 1999
1998 April 7: Serbian parliament votes 193-4 to hold national referendum to back Belgrade's rejection of outside mediation.
1998 April 23: Serbian referendum opposes Western intervention.
Jonathan Landay on page 1 of his article: "Serbia's Strongman Pumps Up Last Week's Referendum" Christian Science Monitor, 27 April 1998, states the outcome of the referendum was 97% rejecting Western mediation.
Blair would not accept outside intervention over Northern Ireland, something previous British governments have rejected. The Russians would not accept outside intervention over Chechnya: nor the Israelis over Palestine: nor the USA over Guantanamo Bay: not any other self-respecting country on this earth over problems within in its own sovereign territory.
Peter Taylor
Herts/UK - Thursday June 12, 2003 at 12:06 pm
test.Test.
This is only a test.
Not trying to be bold .
Just... a test.
josef crow
New York
NY - Thursday June 12, 2003 at 12:18 pm
If I'm not missing the point S. Radovanovic says: Miloševic should've disappeared in the end of 1987, a few months after 8th meeting or session when he introduced himself as a politician with a programme, at the latest. By not doing so he did a great damage to not only Serbs but also to others. His political programme was whether domination over SFRJ or its destruction. In realizing his political objectives he waged a few wars and ruined Serbia. We knew it would be difficult to find him guilty of alleged crimes but we also know that he is a depraved man, which gives an explanation. The situation in Serbia is such that a strong-willed authority is needed to save us from the great danger represented by those who still support Milosevic and the mafia he helped to come into existence.
I have no idea what he thinks or wants to say more. Somebody help me please if there is more. I don't like or enjoy in what he's doing of himself and do not read his posts anymore but I do welcome josef crow. It's good to have some old good decadent cynisism on the air again.
Ivko Rig
Italy - Thursday June 12, 2003 at 1:33 pm
Mr. Radovanovic may be wrong, but I'll defend his right to state his case without undue personal ridicule. This does nothing to further the "cause", and in fact alienates people who might be interested in hearing the truth. The left has this terrible habit of destroying its own legitimacy by ridiculing arguments which, to an outsider, appear to be perfectly reasonable. Such seems often to be the case here in the war of words against RadovanovicThat said, I finally do see the flaws in Mr. Radovanovic's rantings about Milosevic. Okay, I'm just trying to get to the truth like everyone else. I've never been to Kosovo or Serbia. I do come across Kosovo Albanians and Serbs often in my work, but can I trust what they say to be reflective of the majority people back home? I don't think so. There's a selection bias.
Mr. Radovanovic seems to be making the case that Milosevic dragged down a reluctant populace during his struggle with the West, all for his own personal gain (career, ego, $$). In my mind, seeing that Milosevic had the support of the vast majority of Serbs (if his parlimentary victories can be considered their proxy) pretty much shoots down that arguement (thank you Peter Taylor). I do relent in defending Mr Radovanovic's case. Perhaps Mr. Radovanovic was always against Milosevic and could see the dangers of what was to come. Or perhaps it's just a case of sour grapes - Milosevic made out to be the goat for a proud nation's failure to retain its integrity.
We're all just human and getting to the truth is obviously a struggle. Yes, you can find it, but you have to search awfully hard for it. That it should be so hard to find the truth is, in my humble opinion, the real source of the problem. Walter Trkla, you spoke more elequently than I ever could (July 4, 2002 11:20am) about exactly this issue. Clearly from everything I've read, it's obvious that terrible injustices were inflicted on Serbia. But how many people in the world know this to be true? Talk with your average left-of-center individual most anywhere in the world and do they have a clue what NATO did to Serbia in the 90's? Do they care? (Someone please correct me if I'm wrong and where I can go to find people that know or care).
With all due respect to Gogol and Walter, I still disagree with those advocating blind resistance in all circumstances. I believe for resistance to be effective, it must be intelligent. Yes, of course, the deaths of 25 million Russians in WWII was for good cause. They won the war. Of course Hungarian Jews being led to slaughter should have resisted Rudolf Kastner and the Nazis. But how about Iraqi solders in the first Gulf war? The killing of 100 to 200 thousand Iraqis was a terrible injustice. Did Iraq not have legitimate greivances against Kuwait? Did Saddam not try to negotiate peace after getting tricked into invading? Of course. It defies imagination what happened there. But would anyone really argue that the "resistance" of those Iraqi soldiers buried alive in trenches was really worth it? Okay, you say I'm playing Monday morning quarterback. At least they tried. But did they really have one ounce of a chance? I would argue, no, in which case, yes, at times it is suicide to resist. Sorry, but that seems to be the dirty ugly truth.
In my humble opinion, if we're going to defeat this thing we have to kill snake at its head, which is what Walter was speaking of one year ago. Because, for now, and for the last 30 years, we're preaching to an ever so small choir.
I, too, would like to thank whoever has made this forum available. Gives one hope in an otherwise miserable world.
josef crow
New York
NY - Thursday June 12, 2003 at 4:14 pm
Josef, I may be wrong but I do have a feeling (just a feeling) you are offering a compromised truth as a needed beggining of reconciliation between warring parties in the Balkan slaughter-house. Generous, you are welcome.
I agree with you when you say that the truth should be presented to people, but not as something which we still have to "struggle to". Would it be a fair deal to agree upon the following: This forum is not good for presenting the truth to wider audiences but for its discovering lies which were told to them by the media as well as S. Radovanovic and his likes.
I am not joking: in practical life maybe I would take the advice coming out from your posts.
I do not agree with your views concerning resistance and denying any sense in doing so. I believe it is very important because the farther it goes the more it reveals the attacker.
I will never fight a war not even a just one but I will alwas resist to the point where it changes into a fight, and of course, if I see a just reason. Being unkind towards Radovanovic is a kind of resistance and doesn't go that far... If we don't want to be teachers of kindness here.
Ivko Rig
Italy - Thursday June 12, 2003 at 4:52 pm
GogolHmmm............
The Hague Tribunal orders Washington to hand over all transcripts of meetings held by Madeline Albright and/or Richard Holbrooke and/or Gen. Clark
opps.........I forgot, Albright's office was bugged the entire time. Change that to......
The Hague Tribunal orders Moscow.......
AP V
NY
NY - Thursday June 12, 2003 at 10:37 pm
Heavy Clashes as Serbia Arrests War Crimes Suspect
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La - Thursday June 12, 2003 at 10:41 pm
On the other hand:
The U.N. Security Council on Thursday approved an exemption for U.S. peacekeepers from prosecution by the new International Criminal Court for another year with France, Germany and Syria abstaining.
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La - Thursday June 12, 2003 at 11:38 pm
Belgrade succumbs to Hague pressureToday, Milosevic’s top advisors/lawyers, according to RTS, went to the Hague to meet the former president. The content of the meeting is unknown. Another issue in the news was the arrest of Veselin Šljivanèanin. He was arrested in his Belgrade apartment. The government in Belgrade has agreed to hand over key documents to the prosecution within 10 days. Zoran Ljiljic, former Yugoslav president has left for the Hague after he was relived of keeping state secrets.
This seems like a last attempt by the prosecution to try and get their case in order.
Dan B
Canada - Friday June 13, 2003 at 6:25 am
‘Kosovo Déjà Vu’ by James BovardAt some point, “history” is going to catch up with the U.S. government.
Don’t forget Me-too Tony’s contribution James. Without his vigorous and dishonest lead over Kosovo Europe would not have been dragged into this criminal enterprise which would probably not have gone ahead. And then of course there was Cherie’s propaganda contribution on mythical ‘rape camps’ to match and support Hilary’s urge to bomb.
Tony with a cheesy grin
_ dupes the world with wicked spin
Cherie tars the Serbs with rape
_ Oh bombing’s such a jolly japeAs Blair prepares to spend more than a billion GBP’s a year on maintaining British forces in Iraq the lesson of the equally criminal invasion of Kosovo is that he will need to do so indefinitely. Wake up British electorate: apart from the criminality of these events consider how many hospitals these funds would contribute to Blair’s dilapidated health service?
“Since the NATO’s entry into Kosovo in June of 1999, the indigent population of this region has suffered at the hands of Albanian extremists and organized terrorists. The NATO troops, operating under the organization of KFOR (Kosovo Force), have done little to protect minority groups and have stood by and watched as over 350,000 people were ethnically cleansed from the region (primarily the Serbs and Roma) and over 2,500 Serbs were abducted or killed.More than 200,000 Kosovo Serbs have left their homes as a result of extremist violence or fearing bloody reprisals from Albanians. The 80,000 to 120,000 Serbs who remain live in isolated enclaves, sometimes as small as a single apartment block, "protected" by NATO troops.” The Centre for Peace in the Balkans, Toronto, Canada
Why is it that Blair who was so insistent upon destroying Serbia - and supporting Islamic terrorists in the effort - allegedly for the ethnic cleansing of its Albanian population has absolutely nothing to do or say about the ethnic cleansing of Kosovo’s minority populations?
The answer tells you everything you need to know about Phony Tony.
ICTY: To be fair why is Blair - let alone the terrorists he supported - not on trial for the murder of innocent civilians by bombarding them with cluster bombs?
Peter Taylor
Herts/UK - Friday June 13, 2003 at 6:55 am
Like a Morningstar I follow this trial discussion (and to the best of my ability "the trial" against mr. Milosevic as well); and like Jared Israel I trust to learn every time I come here (1).Hence I honestly believe that so do other members of the world public, - even if they leave but little direct or no evidence of their participation. This forum may in itself be "no good for presenting the truth to wider audiences" (as Ivko Rig suggests) but is it that unreasonable to suppose that, say, Judge May has got the message (including the summary by Walter Trkla on Friday June 06, 2003 at 3:50 pm)?
Is it not likely, that the word is spreading? Is Gogol not right in suggesting that the "intended effect of (the Milosevic) trial has already failed", - unless of course the purpose were solely to demonstrate that (US military) Might is Right?
Whatever the verdict on mr. Milosevic that will not absolve any NATO nations of their guilt; on the contrary the "trial" (and the related discussion) has already contributed to a wide(r) recognition of the fact that leaders like the British primeminister Tony Blair "is responsible for death, injury and devastation on a massive scale" (Peter Taylor, Friday June 06, 2003 at 3:45 pm).
Is it then unreasonable to expect, that such NATO leaders will eventually be asked to answer for their crimes before a court?
Godfred Louis-Jensen
PS: This "discussion" has (in my opinion) long since established that the "trial" is all but fair; maybe it is time to conclude to that effect - and to start a new discussion focussing on and hence preparing for the trial against NATO?
(1) The news borne out (on Tuesday June 03, 2003 at 7:32 am), by which Jared Israel was conveying the regards of mr. Milosevic "to all who care about the struggle of the much-slandered Serbian people", seem to confirm that this trial discussion is indeed being followed by a wide audience, - even if it amounts to "resistance" only.
Godfred Louis-Jensen
Copenhagen
D E N M A R K - Friday June 13, 2003 at 9:04 am
"The World is not dangerous because of those who do harm but because of those who look at it without doing anything." -Albert Einstein
D. S.
US - Friday June 13, 2003 at 10:55 am
The prosecutor must be scraping the bottom of the barrel. Today they resorted to calling a political scientist from Montenegro to testify about the Serbian police.This guy's claim to fame was that he wrote a book, which was paid for by the Soros Foundation. In the book he talks about how Milosevic "abused the police." He gets all of his information in his book from the international and domestic media and through his own personal analysis of the laws and constitution of Serbia, eventhough he isn't a lawyer or anything like that. He's just, as Mr. Kwon put it, "a layman."
This man has no direct knowledge of anything.
The prosecution dosen't need extra time for presenting their case. They don't have a case. The more they try to prove their false indictment the dumber it makes them look.
The "trial" was downright comical today.
They also finshed with Osman Selak today. He tried to say that the VJ was in direct command over the VRS. That was the point of his testimony.
Milosevic asked Mr. Selak if he could cite any order that the VJ ever issued to the VRS. Selak couldn't produce any orders or examples or anything like that, but he did have a diagram that he drew where he drew a line between a box marked VJ and another box marked VRS. I guess that this line between these 2 boxes was supposed to be the "evidence."
This Selak fellow hates Serbs. Mr. Kay was talking about the history of the JNA and he mentioned the Second World War. Mr. Selak couldn't restrain himself he had to take a shot at the Serbs and so he lied and said that the Chetniks supported the Nazis.
As an American I am deeply offended by that remark. Serb Chetniks saved the lives of more than 500 U.S. Airmen during the 2nd world war. Those Americans were saved from the Nazis by the Chetniks. Draza Mihailovich is a hero in the fight against fascism. How dare this witness insult the honorable Chetniks.
http://www.srpska-mreza.com/Felman/snf-speech.html
Osman Selak is a fascist. He is as bad as any skinhead or Ku Klux Klans man anywhere. The fact that a fascist like him testified against Milosevic actually helps to prove what a good guy Milosevic must be.
Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States - Friday June 13, 2003 at 11:41 am
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La- Friday June 13, 2003 at 11:42 am
c s
Shangri-La- Friday June 13, 2003 at 1:22 pm
So let understand now. In France how many newspapers / magazines were closed down by the government? How many newspaper editors or journalists murdered? No its not just Curuvija, there were more. At least nobody is now trying to say that Serbia had a free media but is placing it in world context. Well then examples please. How many newspapers did US government close down or British? We can look at this. It is all documented. But the result will be that Yugoslavia had less free media than other countries. Sad but true. With actions of new government closing down Nacional for example it is bad sign.Have to admit election of Bush can show that elections might be stolen in United States as well as Yugoslavia. But Mr Crow you neglected this when looking at my post. The Serbian people chose Milosevic in the early 90's its true but from mid 90's they had to invent smaller parties and form coalition with right wing Seselj party to hold onto power. The local elections of 96 they lost. After that Presidential candidate Lilic not enough voted for him so Milutinovic quickly came. Actually Seselj won an election but it was fixed and he did a deal with Milosevic. We know this. We all voted for Seselj - yes we did.
You are right to understand my point. Its fair to ask why the people living comfortable lives should expect Serbs to resist the Americans and who knows what else on the prinicple. Maybe my sympathy would be more if these people cheering us would make a very serious sacrifice of the kind Mr Trkla says he made by eating nettles, or looking at their children who dont have food to eat and tell them 'Have pride' as if that will feed them. It is selfish to expect other people make such huge sacrifice on their own. Its stupid to so much praise man who made his people take such sacrifice
It is also fair to ask why some dont want to hear this argument. What is the problem in listening to this? What makes everyone so angry when it did not concern them in direct way affect me?
Mr Peric probably DOS make themselve rich with the money or it went to Popovic bureau.
APV or anybody, go ahead document media abuses in US / England and we shall compare. Also please write about cases of President enriching his family. Does Bush's daughter own TV station or theme park or something? What about Blair son? Did he build the biggest disco in Europe (that is what they told anyway)?
Andy W. Slovenia did better than Yugoslavia in the media. Croatia was just as bad as Yugoslavia if not even worse but thank god I only had to look at one side of the propoganda which is bad enough.
message to regulator to cut this page, to make this message I had to go in internet cafe.
s radovanovic
s- Friday June 13, 2003 at 1:34 pm
What is going on?“We are not satisfied with the speed of the process. Sixty-seven sets of mortal remains from Serbia have been repatriated so far," Baraybar told reporters in Merdare, the administrative border between Serbia and Kosovo where the handover took place.
"This is roughly six percent of the remains found there," said Jose Pablo Baraybar, head of the UN-run office dealing with the province's missing persons (OMPF).
Over the last two years, Serbian authorities have uncovered some 800 remains in three sites in Serbia which are believed to be of ethnic Albanians killed in Kosovo.
This claim of 800 bodies - previously claimed by the current Serbian administration to be more than 900 - needs to be squared with the facts. According to Baraybar’s earlier figures only some 300 bodies were unaccounted for before these ‘finds’ in Serbia with still several hundred graves in Kosovo to be examined?
What is this mysterious excess of some 500 and why do the figures keep changing so dramatically - 900 plus to 800?
We also need urgently details of the 1250 or so missing Serbs in Kosovo.
Yesterday it was reported US forces attacked a camp in northwest Iraq killing 70 or more Iraqi’s. Early reports do not say whether the casualties include women and children. What was all that guff from Nato about proportionate response to terror attacks?
What was all that from William Walker about a massacre at Racak: where Serbian security forces replied to a deadly attack by the KLA on their own sovereign territory? Of the 45 found dead at Racak two were women aged 30 or so and only one was an elderly man aged 70. There were no children.
Peter Taylor
Herts/UK- Friday June 13, 2003 at 2:12 pm
How many newspapers were closed down in France? Good question, more than you certainly will think and depending when. During the Algerian War which ended in 1962 many newspapers voicing opposition against the war and the army handy work there were shut down. Newspapers advocating refusing the serve in the armed forces were shut down. Later in peace time, once the war over, the very critical, satirical and rather funny Le Canard Enchaine used to be closed down by the government in numerous occasions. Once, the ridicule of the government, police official were found "repairing" the heating system in the newspaper's building during a hot summer!
Suppressing the freedom of the press is as old as the press itself and not a Serbian invention. No body escapes except when like now in this new world order when the press instead of opposing serves the interest of the plutocracy becoming their propaganda outlet.
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La- Friday June 13, 2003 at 2:18 pm
Regarding stealing elections there is a substantial number of US citizens, voters and believers in democracy they will argue the last US presidential elections were indeed stolen. There is plenty of evidence to support this allegation and certainly nobody can claim Mr. George W. Bush was elected into the presidency since in fact he was selected by the US Supreme Court by not an unanimous vote but by a divided 5 to 4 opinion.
Some election!
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La- Friday June 13, 2003 at 2:26 pm
Bush children owns, as far as I know they rather drink and drive cars wildly on week ends, no TV station. The issue of the meddia is left to the good cafe of the Federal Communicatiions Commision headed by the son of the US Secretary of State, sort of foreign minister, General Colin Powell. Under the leadership of his son the Commission has decided and ruled against 70 % of public opinion, that monopolies in the media are a good thing for the public. If that is not an indication of something going really rot in the Kingdom Of Capital what else is including Serbia!
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La- Friday June 13, 2003 at 2:31 pm
Kofi Annan is calling for the ddeployment of ARMED peace keepers to Israel-Palestine to stop the killings!
Does anybody listen?
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La- Friday June 13, 2003 at 3:38 pm
Gogol Charlemagne why think that my comment about media makes it Serbian invention? It was not a Serbian invention. Critisism of your own media manipulation does not mean that it was born in your own country. It only means that is the country you live in. According to Milosevic defence Serbia was never at war until NATO so maybe to compare Yugoslavia with imperialist France in the Algerian period is not equal. That is interesting information about France. The communists there must have gone crazy in this time.
s Radovanovic
S- Friday June 13, 2003 at 3:39 pm
S. Radovanovic you obviously did not read or you did not understand Mr. Wilcoxson's post, and I will repost it to you:"S Radovanovic, The fact that B-92 operated at all says volumes about the Government of Serbia. Any other government in the world would have refused to issue them a licence to broadcast.
A station like B-92 certainly wouldn't be permitted to operate in the United States or Canada.
I work for an American TV station near the Canadian border, and I am familiar with the FCC and CRTC regulations.
Broadcast stations operating on foreign funds are illegal in the USA and Canada. If they catch you operating a broadacast station with foreign money they will revoke your licence, if you broadcast without a licence, they will throw you in jail and confiscate your equipment.
Maybe you weren't happy with the state of the media under Milosevic, but name me a country that did better."
Andy Wilcoxson
In other words you have no chance to even start to broadcast, if the money is from foreign sources.
You said that Slovenia did better: Please read this Mr.Radovanovic and bear in mind that it was OK since these actions were aimed at destroying Yugoslavia:
"British deal fuelled Balkan war Military sale to Slovenia flouted Tory foreign policy
Kosovo: special report
Blaz Zgaga and Antony Barnett Sunday May 28, 2000 The Observer
Britain flouted its own foreign policy by approving the sale of millions of pounds worth of military equipment to a former Yugoslav republic only days before the outbreak of the bloody Balkans war, The Observer has established.
Eight days before Slovenia became the first area to break from the unified Yugoslavia in 1991, a British firm delivered communications equipment to the Slovenian forces to help them fight the Serb-led Yugoslav army.
The revelation that this deal was approved by the Conservative Government will embarrass former Foreign Secretary Douglas Hurd, who was the principal architect of the West's policy of supporting a unified Yugoslavia. He had warned the republics to stay in the federation.
Until now, Germany has shouldered the blame for the Balkan tragedy by prematurely recognising the breakaway republics of Slovenia and Croatia. Britain's help to Slovenia casts a new light on events.
Labour MP Ann Clwyd, who sits on the House of Commons International Development Select Committee, said: 'These revelations show once again that the export of military equipment from Britain needs to be much more rigorously scrutinised.'
After Slovenia declared independence, the Yugoslav army began its military offensive against the 'rebel' republic. The ensuing 10-day war signalled the start of the conflicts that ultimately killed hundreds of thousands.
Three months after Britain exported military equipment to Slovenia the United Nations imposed an arms embargo on the region.
The Observer has obtained details of the multi-million-pound contract between the Slovenian Defence Ministry and Racal, the British defence and communications group. A fax dated 29 May, 1991, from one of Racal's military subsidiaries, Racal Tacticom, to the Slovenian Defence Ministry lists four batches of tactical military communication equipment worth £5 million.
Racal's communications network played a vital role in helping Slovenia beat the Serb-led Yugoslav forces. The equipment arrived on 17 June, eight days before the war of independence began.
Janez Jansa, then Slovenian Defence Minister, praises Britain for its role in his memoirs. He writes: 'The government of one of the more decent Western states has, on our request, officially approved the export of mili tary radio stations with secure data transmission to Slovenia.'
One senior source at Racal Defence Electronics confirmed that it had delivered the equipment after it received an export licence from the Department of Trade and Industry. He said the contract was with the 'regional government' of Slovenia, and the export was for 'the purpose of national defence'.
Misha Glenny, a Balkans expert, said: 'If the British Government was fully aware of this, it would imply that the Government was covertly operating in contradiction of its stated policy and aims. It would also shift some of the responsibility carried by Germany.'
The former Slovenian Defence Minister's book also claims that the British Embassy in Belgrade learnt that the Yugoslav air force was planning to shoot down a Slovenian aircraft due to carry the equipment to its new owner. According to Jansa, the British tipped off the Slovenians, who decided to send the cargo by road. Government sources in Slovenia confirm that the aircraft that was to have delivered the shipment was a passenger plane owned by Adria Airways, the national airline. The jet was to have flown from Gatwick to the capital Ljubljana, in central Slovenia.
Suggestions that the British Embassy in Belgrade knew of the military shipment and warned the Slovenians are strongly denied by Sir Peter Hall, who was ambassador in Belgrade. He said: 'These allegations of British Embassy involvement are without foundation... I had no, absolutely no, knowledge of any military equipment being sent from Britain to Slovenia. Indeed, given the great tension in the region at the time I would be surprised that any such equipment would have been sent at all.'
The Observer contacted Lord Hurd and Peter Lilley, who was then Trade Secretary, with details of the arms shipment. Both declined to respond. A spokesman for the Blair Government refused to comment, saying it needed permission from Racal to give details of any export licence.
Lord Owen, the EU peace negotiator in Bosnia, said: 'I am surprised that such sales took place, particularly as the British Government, the US and Nato's view was to keep the Federation of Yugoslavia together. But this equipment was not aggressive - it was radios not guns. I think it sails close to the border but does not cross it.'
Blaz Zgaga works for the Slovenian daily 'Vecer'.
Guardian Unlimited © Guardian Newspapers Limited 2002 "
Money that DOS received will be returned back to investors as "return on investment", unfortunatelly it will be Serbian people and yourself, who will pay installments.
DOS and Bondstil are there to secure investments.
Milosevic trial and subsequent trials (war reparations etc) are there to justify "return on investment"
Pero Peric
Canada- Friday June 13, 2003 at 4:05 pm
How can a person receive a fair trial when he/she is already judged guilty?The Hauge Tribunal is a kangaroo court that is an attempt by the NATO alliance to vindicate its war crimes by putting Serbia on trial.Co-Opted Human Rights organizations are outspoken about United Nations rights of man declaration as long as they are not Serbian,and Palestinian.This is a political trial being used by NATO to control opponents by using legal procedure for political ends.History is full of political trials that are one sided the most famous is the trial of Jesus Christ.So today what we are witnessing is a crucifixtion history has not changed
Rodovan Jurich
Soviet State of Minnesota,USSA- Friday June 13, 2003 at 9:11 pm
Mr. Radovanovic in the West we don’t close down the newspaper we just refuse to allow reporters to print the truth. If the reporter insists on printing the truth the next step is you are fired. The freedom of the press in the West “belongs to those who own it”. In British Columbia we have some three hundred daily newspapers all owned by two persons. The only influence I have over them is not to purchase them. No more and no less than you have over your papers.I will give you just one example of how we in the west control what the people read. Monsanto is a corporation that controls 95% of genetically modified food, seeds and growth hormones. Two reporters for Fox TV in Florida wanted to publish, with the support of Fox, the use of bovine growth hormone that is injected in milk producing cattle so that the cows produce more milk. The reporters Steve Wilson and Jane Akre had scientific evidence that milk from cows injected with bovine growth hormone, a Monsanto product, cause cancer of the breast and colon. Monsanto threatened Fox. Fox told the reporters to withdraw the story, and the reporters refused so Fox fired them. Welcome to freedom of the press.
Another example of how the press is manipulated can be seen in the recent SARS outbreak in Toronto. I knew of the SARS outbreak in Toronto one month before the Canadian media reported the story. I learned about it from Belgrade news reports.
Mr. Radovanovic you ask “does Bush’s daughter own TV station”. NO! Grandpa Bush’s oil company was bailed out by the Saudis to a tune of a billion or so dollars. Welcome to the war on Iraq. Margaret Thatcher’s son made 12 million pounds on the contract that Mom arranged with the Arabs on a sale of jet fighters. Our own Brian Mulroney (Serbian Mila’s husband) was accused of pocketing 40 million in a plane deal with Lockheed Corporation. Did Yeltsin and his family walk away with billions? Did Helmut Kohl steal? You bet he did. Did Clinton Steal? Look into his real-estate deals and the suicide of his lawyer friend and the answer is yes. Does this justify the supposed theft by Milosevic? No. HE IS NOT IN THE HAGUE FOR THEFT OF PROPERTY. He is there to show the criminality of NATO. We are not here to praise Milosevic; we are here defending international law, why are you here trying to burry him and international law with him?
By eating stinging nettle and acorns was not a sacrifice for me Mr. Radovanovic. Since our house and all its contents burned in the war we ate out of one bowl and I only realized many years later why my mother and aunts took one spoon of porridge for every three that the children took. The sacrifice was made by five widows, each with three or four small children, who lost their husbands at a young age. In five houses we lost nine men and if these men did not resist everyone in the village would have perished. Mr. Radovanovic it was pride that saved us and it was deprivation that makes me see the injustice for the of what took place in my former homeland.
Walter Trkla
Kamloops BC
Canada- Saturday June 14, 2003 at 1:07 am
GGyou're starting to talk nonsense, get some sleep. BTW, I heard son Powell defend his Commissions' actions. First time I heard the guy, on the Sunday morning shows, on PBS and on Charlie Roses show.
He bright, articulate and IMO right on the network issue. Where did you ever dream up that 70% number. The media has been run by the 3 commercial networks for decades, and there're all in sync, anti conservative sync. Now that other opinions are getting through, they want to slam shut the door.
W is the best thing that happened to this country, and he'll make a better interim Iraqie leader than Saddam. You know it and so do the Iraqies.
J, P
USA.Wis- Saturday June 14, 2003 at 4:28 am
Well, I see this forum has been recently honoured with the presence of Jared Israel, of the equally famed (in some circles anyway) Emperor's Clothes web-site.Jared Israel and the fairly recent addition to EC's staff, Prof. Francisco Gil-White are very good. They are so good that they are bad. In fact, it would be impossible for them to be bad if they weren't so good.
Just what are the good at? "Piercing a fog of lies"? Well, that's not quite what I had in mind, although it used to be. They're good at sorting out pertinent facts and trends from the plethora, and performing the appropriate detailed analyses thereon. At least I used to think so.
Who can fault the multitude of detailed pieces and interviews executed by Mr. Israel over the years? Buggered if I can, or want to, for that matter. Or the Yugoslav related debut piece-par-excellence on media analysis by Prof. Gil-White? Buggered if I can, or want to, for that matter. All sides, apparently anyway, taken into account, nothing apparently left out, no stone left unturned, or as is more apposite in relation to Yugoslav issues, no turd left unstoned.
And then, Jenin:
Mr. Israel's "noticing" of mis-reporting and Palestinian propagandising inflation concerning the number of Palestinian deaths during the Jenin siege, triggering, Mr. Israel hopes we will be led to believe, the EC web-site's recent treatment of Israel-Palestine issues. Shock-horror: the Palestinians are also inclined to propagandise! A treatment without any balance whatever in regard to what prominent Zionists have said (check out Ben-Gurion himself, Moshe Dayan etc, etc) and done over the history of that conflict, and the effect on Palestinians this would inevitably have, the articles there pretty much concentrate on unfortunate utterings and enemy-of-my-enemy-is-my-friend alliances of ardent Palestinian leaders, some of them long dead. Worse, he seems to have also persuaded he of equally excellent analytical abilities, Professor Gil-White to also prostitute himself in the same way, I'm guessing on the basis that it would "look better", coming from someone not of Jewish origin. And not a word of criticism, as far as I've seen, for Sharon, and his provocations.
More importantly with relevance to wanting us to be led to believe that all this resulted from dubious inflated figures for the deaths in Jenin leading to all this "analysis" by Jared Israel and the Prof., is the strange fact that the EC web-site had theretofor avoided direct treatment of the Israeli-Palestine issue apparently like the plague. Now, I always preferred it, and as I have said elsewhere, when EC pretty much devoted pretty much all its efforts to Yugoslavian issues. Of course, this didn't continue, and some excellent treatment of the Venezuelan crises, 9/11, NATO "sucking" in Tajikistan (as if it doesn't suck everywhere. ;-), and so on, occurred. Israel-Palestine issues remained conspicuous by their absence. Why? Obviously not, given the large treatments of other topics, because that would dilute treatment of Yugoslavian issues.
We probably all have reason to be grateful for the clear elucidations of Jared Israel and his web-site, amongst others, the crystallisation of techniques against the "how long has he been beating his wife"? propaganda technique. Also amongst others, the painstaking almost word by word disassembling of statements made by the various "movers and shakers" and the equally painstaking re-synthesis, in most logical fashion, into most likely, and undoubtedly most often, actual meanings and intentions.
Compare and contrast yourselves, albeit if you're like me, and unlike Mr. Israel in this regard, you will not be able to manage to do this kind of thing full-time, nor have access to Lexis, nor, in my case, a Lexus, for that matter. Compare and contrast what?
The Yugoslav articles, Prof. Gil-White's excellent debut media analysis piece and other pieces with the more recent Israeli-Palestine treatments. In the likely words of a famous recent contributor to this forum: Don't take my word for it, find out for yourself, make your own mind up.
As excellent as Lexis undoubtedly is, it's a dumb database sniffer, garbage in, garbage out. If you want it to find a pre-defined answer for you, I have no doubt that it will. MEMRI ring a bell with anyone, or SELECTIVE MEMRI, as the Guardian dubs it? With regard to EC's recent Israel-Pal articles, it regrettably appears to me that they also have developed a selective memri.
So, two points nothing to do with the actual facts of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, emerge:
1. Although we're assured that the EC web-site once shared the vaguely "lefty" view of poor dispossessed disregarded and oppressed Palestinians, research triggered by Jenin propaganda made them realise their and "our" "mistake". Apart from, as mentioned above, Palestinian propaganda over Jenin not being much of a surprise to most of us, and hardly grist to prompt a full-scale "investigation", this (now) once professed position is surprisingly at odds with the prior great scarcity of direct treatment of Israeli-Pal issues at EC. Other than Yugoslavia, we have, no doubt amongst others: Venezuela:tick, NATO:tick, CIA:tick, Tajikistan:tick, Afghanistan:tick, Chechnya:tick, 9/11:tick, Belarus:tick, Iran:tick, Iraq:tick, US Empire generally:tick. ... And the US's greatest ally in Empire in the Middle East, Israel, and the problems attendant thereon, or rather therefrom ... ? Hardly a whimper. Why the avoidance?
2. The contrast, somewhat startling as I see it, between EC's treatment of Yugoslav and other issues, and the more recent Israel-Pal treatments. This contrast is in academic and intellectual bias and balance. Lack of and plenty of in the former cases, the reverse in the latter. Arafat's wife being Christian is not mentioned; instead his and various other Pal. organisations reliance on Muslim fundamentalism is. Do they misuse and abuse the apparent brain-rot that youthful testosterone over-abundance and religious belief (a bad combination) seem to create in order to have their "sharp-end", their "armies"? Sure they do, that's pretty much how most armies are created and maintained. Despicable on the individual level, but no more so than the purposeful dumbing down of a significant portion of the US population that ensures plenty of fodder for the US military.
So, Emperor's Clothes is good. And we pretty much all know it to be good. And bad. If it weren't so good, it could not possibly be bad. They ask in their most recent E-Mail notification: "Who is the real Ramsey Clark? I'm also forced to do what I "always do" and ask: Who is the real Jared Israel?
Here's part of a post I made on the YAHOO "ambiguities" group, when I was in a particularly bad mood. It's a reply made to an article that was posted there (Watching Gravity), so you'll perhaps mentally have to fill in some blanks, as well as tolerate some repetition or similarity to some of the above:-
[BEGIN EXTRACT]
" ... And then there are the American "liberals". Perhaps Mr. Borg is an admirer of Chomsky, Israel (Jared) and Ramsey Clark, as I have been latterly and in Chomsky's case, not so latterly.
Chomsky, who Jared Israel chopped up into arrogant pompous little pieces (in my view) over Yugoslavia:-
Whereas Israel has prostituted his undoubted excellent analytical abilities completely in his web-site's recent treatment of Israel-Palestine issues, all triggered, he hopes we will be led to believe, by his "noticing" of mis-reporting and Palestinian propagandising inflation concerning the number of Palestinian deaths during the Jenin siege. Shock-horror: the Palestinians are also inclined to propagandise! Without any balance whatever in regard to what prominent Zionists have said and done over the history of that conflict, and the effect on Palestians this would inevitably have, the articles there pretty much concentrate on unfortunate utterings and enemy-of-my-enemy-is-my-friend alliances of ardent Palestinian leaders, some of them long dead. Worse, he seems to have also persuaded he of equally excellent analytical abilities, Professor Gil-White to also prostitute himself in the same way, I guess on the basis that it would "look better", coming from someone not of Jewish origin. And not a word of criticism, as far as I've seen, for Sharon, and his provocations.
And so to Ramsey Clark. Recently he did not correct an assertion (Clark was present) that he was Milosevic's lawyer. Good thing he ISN'T Milosevic's lawyer, as he also allowed to go unchecked at the same time and place the assertion by comparision that Milosevic was a War-Criminal and a butcher, whatever. Strange behaviour indeed for someone believing themselves to the legal representative of a client still undergoing a LIVE "trial". I believe Eichman got better representation.
Then last, and least, there is Martin Sheen, much loved Hollywood "leftie". He does the voice-over in a documentary about the anti-Milosevic CIA backed "student" movement Otpor, praising them glowingly. He seems to think it's great that the US now does ("then did", really, it was a while ago) {openly} what the CIA used to do covertly in terms of funding/helping create opposition groups to regimes not of its liking. How'd you like some foreign entity to try that in the US, Martin? I understand that sort of thing is illegal there. Goose and gander have any meaning for you?
It's struck me lately that these guys seem to do an awfully good job of dividing the anti war movement in the US, US "lefties", whatever, whilst giving the impression, terribly useful to the Establishment there, that there is a vigorous and vocal opposition. A wonderful, vibrant "democracy". You could hardly do better if you PLANNED it. Grist to the mill of jokers like this:
http://www.publiceye.org/frontpage/911/not_allies.html
Conspiracy theorist? Who? Moi?
I'll try the other side of the bed tomorrow ... "
[END EXTRACT]
And for those thinking there really isn't much to this, or haven't the time to check things out, two things: 1. Try to recall the relationship between EC and the Israeli-Pal. problem before the reporting on Jenin. EC is (was) just not known for that, is (was) it? WHY? 2. Ah were up on't moors t'other neet, and saw these funny lights that turned out to be alien space-ships, and their occupants told me t'were so. I have since become religious (hic), an alien being worshipper, and am off to consult with David Icke in never-never land (hic). To flummox any unbelievers and would-be apostates, luckily I had a camera with me, and whilst the occupants were invisible, absorbing all visible light as a source of energy, their space-ships were not.
(hic)
_________________________________
Tuesday June 10, 2003 at 12:36 pm
Dakic Ana said:
"Rebeca There is nothing wrong with being the catholic. ... "
Well, that's arguable. I guess it's OK if you can get past the Catholic Church covering up, if not actually encouraging, the crimes of paedophilia, aiding and abetting the escape of NAZI War-Criminals, the more recent demonisation of the Serbs and the sterilization of history to the extent that Stepinac has been beatified, being embarassingly close in bed with the CIA for decades in undermining the independence of one Latin-American country after another (check out Philip Agee's book: "Inside the Company: CIA Diary"; Peru in particular), and worst of all opposing birth-control (amongst poor Catholics only, of course: US Catholics get a nod and a wink) thereby contributing to continued dirt-poor poverty, misery and all too short longevity amongst millions World-wide; not least in South and Central America.
The murdered six Jesuit priests in El Salvador? Expendable assets. A bit like the folks of good heart and intention who think they're doing sterling work for the NGOs they work for. Poor dupes. Mind you, how would the former Yugoslavs know that they should wash up quickly after a meal to stop the food from sticking to the utensils, without those NGO workers there to tell them that? I digress; back to the murdered priests. Nary was there a blip in US-Vatican relations. Not even when William "I've never seen anything like it" Walker recommended that the US shouldn't push too hard to have those murders looked into. Too many rich US Catholics, apparently.
It seems that for a long while the only situation in which the Catholic Church approved of two parties being intimate in bed together and not involving married persons with the specific intent of creating a pregnancy was their own relationship with the CIA.
_________________________________
Gogol asked:
"How is otpor said in Farsi?"
I think it probably rhymes with one or other of the two words Radovanovic or Quisling.
_________________________________
In a probably one time only agreement with S. Radovanovic, I request the moderators to have a word with their software dept. The 30 second time-out is frustrating at times, I've been trying to read the most recent posts in the last couple of days, without success until today. Can't we have 45 seconds, or even a minute, guys (or gals)?:-
"Fatal error: Maximum execution time of 30 seconds exceeded in data/issue_milo_discuss.txt ... blah ... "
It might help also in this regard if some of the text figures on the web-page were converted to real text. I imagine it's no use asking if it's possible that inevitable html errors that posters make can not be automatically cancelled out after every post?
_________________________________
Pero Peric
And Monteith (I assume it's still going).
_________________________________
Well, I see JP's back, so the IQ of this forum will sky-rocket upwards again. Relatively speaking, that is, not on average.
_________________________________
Nice to see Josef Crow steadfastly maintaining the honest comparison between the current US Administration and the NAZIs, but I would have thought that well before the reprisal ratio reaches 1,000:1 was time to head for the hills and fight to the death. Otherwise, you kill one of "them" by accident, automobile, or whatever, and you risk the lives of 1,000 people. People who have the arrogance, and, yes, it has to be said, the confidence, to extract such revenge would also have little compunction in so doing with unintentional deaths in their camp.
This, (worse, actually) was the choice the NAZIs gave to the Soviets, a great mistake by the NAZIs; one of many of theirs the Americans have learned from: it's much more efficient to buy off a few of the Quisling diaspora, divide and (mis)rule.
_________________________________
Anybody here know where a cat can find some more pigeons?
;-)
Dennis Revell
USA- Saturday June 14, 2003 at 6:47 am
Dear Peter Taylor,In your most recent posting (1) you are claiming, that "there were no children" among "the 45 found dead at Racak" (following the rather crucial incident (or incidents?) in and around that village in Kosovo on 15 January 1999).
That however may not be correct (in any case I seem to remember (from somewhere in the trial transcripts), that even mr. Milosevic was referring to "the boy" during the "Kosovo part" of the trial).
The socalled "Schedule A" (listing 45 persons "Known by Name Killed at Racak - 15 January 1999") which was attached to the original Indictment dated 22 May 1999 (and which I believe to be retained in the amended Indictment?) include the person "BEQIRI, Halim, 13, Male", - which we may assume was indeed "a child" (and probably the one mentioned during the "trial" proceedings).
Incidentally, as far as I remember (from press reports at the time) the female "MEHMETI, Hanumshah", the age of whom is not given in the "Schedule A", was a young girl (and not a woman "aged 30 or so", as you do indicate).
Said "Schedule A" (2) was always disturbingly incomplete (in my view even ridiculously so as a basis for maintaining William Walker's rash allegations of a "massacre at Racak". For one thing the schedule does not document whether those listed were in fact inhabitants of the village or even physically present there during the incident on 15 January 1999. Neither does it state for instance whether these persons were killed "while fleeing" or were "executed" in the hill above the village, where the bodies were eventually found).
It is no less disturbing however that even subsequent to the Prosecution case we still appear uncertain about "the body" in what is in fact a case of alleged murder, - for which a credible "motive" was never established either...
Presumably the various teams of forensic experts and other officials examining the bodies of those "killed at Racak" would have produced a more satisfactory list, - but I have to admit, that I am unaware if such a list was ever presented to the public?
Could you kindly tell me whether you are referring to some later, and probably more authoritative list of those "45 found dead at Racak"?
(1) What is going on? Friday June 13, 2003 at 1:34 pm (2) http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/indict.htm
Godfred Louis-Jensen
Copenhagen
D E N M A R K- Saturday June 14, 2003 at 7:32 am
With reference to the above I would be grateful of course if anybody, (including mr. Nice or another member of the Prosecution in the socalled "trial" against mr. Milosevic), could direct me towards a list of those "45 found dead at Racak" (preferably more authoritative that the "Schedule A" attached til the Indictment).
Godfred Louis-Jensen
Copenhagen
D E N M A R K- Saturday June 14, 2003 at 7:32 am
With reference to the above I would be grateful of course if anybody, (including mr. Nice or another member of the Prosecution in the socalled "trial" against mr. Milosevic), could direct me towards a list of those "45 found dead at Racak" (preferably more authoritative that the "Schedule A" attached til the Indictment).
Godfred Louis-Jensen
Copenhagen
D E N M A R K- Saturday June 14, 2003 at 10:58 am
AP said:
GG
you're starting to talk nonsense, get some sleep. BTW, I heard son Powell defend his Commissions' actions. First time I heard the guy, on the Sunday morning shows, on PBS and on Charlie Roses show.
He bright, articulate and IMO right on the network issue. Where did you ever dream up that 70% number. The media has been run by the 3 commercial networks for decades, and there're all in sync, anti conservative sync. Now that other opinions are getting through, they want to slam shut the door.
W is the best thing that happened to this country, and he'll make a better interim Iraqie leader than Saddam. You know it and so do the Iraqies.
J, P USA.Wis
You're right about my mistake quoting 70% as oposing the FCC changes:
To date, the FCC has received more than 20,000 comments on its plans to change media ownership rules -- and, as of a tally on May 8, they were running more than 99% against. In addition, NRA members sent some 300,000 postcards opposing the changes, and activist groups such as MoveOn.org have taken out ads in major newspapers criticizing the plans. Has the FCC considered this outpouring? We'll know on June 1, but don't hold your breath.
UNMENTIONABLE PROTESTS. In 2001, two university professors studied five FCC decisions going back to 1996 and found that none of the decisions reflected public comment. One FCC staffer interviewed for the study noted that electronic comments from average citizens carry little weight with the commission because they are "nontechnical in nature."
On Iraq you should congratulate your hero for following the same policy Powell follows on the FCC.
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La- Saturday June 14, 2003 at 11:00 am
c g
SG- Saturday June 14, 2003 at 8:54 pm
UK Denies Plan to House Asylum Seekers in Croatia
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La- Saturday June 14, 2003 at 9:58 pm
Is everyone who can (and can bear it) watching Foreign Assignment on CBC (Canada)? Today they had the case for the prosecution (rehash of all the propaganda, including Jamie Shea speaking). Next is Milosevic's defence.
M Donne
Canada - Friday June 13, 2003 at 11:42 am