MILOSEVIC TRIAL DISCUSSION ARCHIVE

Is Slobodan Milosevic getting a fair trial?
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• discussion archive

• Saturday March 22, 2003 at 2:00 am
  Pera Bora,

  Perhaps you've seen some of the Orwellian "news" coming out of Iraq in recent hours, and in particular the exploitation of captured Iraqi soldiers for propaganda purposes, a clear violation of the Geneva Convention.

  The constantly repeated footage on American TV forced one to recall an earlier Anglo-American imperialist adventure, and in particular, the absurd, monkey-like screams of the war criminal Wesley Kanne Clarke, and his insistence that the public display of 3 captured American terrorists in the territory of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia was a violation of the Geneva Convention.

  Trouble was, the 3 terrorists, and while fully armed, had invaded the FRY without a declaration of war issued by their commander-in-chief, denying their right to protection under the Geneva Convention. Realizing this, the war criminal Kanne Clarke, and in the style of deception which characterized the entire conduct of the 1999 aggression, claimed the 3 "soldiers" were captured while in the territory of the Former Yugo-Commie Republic of Macedonia (the victims of maps perhaps?), where they were, in his words, "attacked while...part of a peacekeeping...peace..mission...keeping the peace...peace in Macedonia...!"

  This is made all the more interesting by the fact that this subject of Geneva Convention violations is apparently censored or otherwise prohibited from all American (and interestingly Canadian as well) coverage of "Operation Kill Iraqi Sand N-word". An added twist to this sordid spectacle is provided by CNN, which has hired war criminal Kanne Clark as a special consultant, who is very comfortable in his new job of selling another criminal aggression, and in the style of an infomercial no less.
  
  Nico Tarzanovic
  CAN

• Saturday March 22, 2003 at 3:07 am
  Nico,

  It's just simply appalling -- all of it. I keep having to suppress a gag reflex.

  Another interesting thing to me about the 3 Americans captured during the 1999 NATO aggression is that they got quite friendly with their Serbian jailers. At least the highest ranking guy did - the one with the skin discoloration or birth mark on his face that Americans kept referring to as a bruise from the beating he must have had from his Serbian captors. This same guy wrote a message of thanks to the Serbs he'd gotten to know and said he said on TV, as Jesse Jackson was leading them back to the promised land, that he was sad to go home because his new Serbian friends could not leave their troubled country and go somewhere nice, too --- or words very much to that effect. But I doubt that many know about this because the guy was hushed up super fast and we never heard from him or his 2 buddies again after they returned after they crossed the border into Croatia. Can you imagine how much they would have been in the news had they had only bad things to say about the Serbs? Why, they'd have been doing book deals and appearing every night on CNN and Fox. But, no, they were wisked away, never to be heard from again, unlike previously when that peanutbrain who parachuted into Bosnian territory (or landed there somehow alone, I don't remember exactly) was paraded on TV in endless interviews about how terrified he was of being caught by the big bad Serbs, but fortunately he got out safely. Shades of American pilots being told during WWII to beware of Mihajlovic's men because the Chetniks would cut their ears off if they captured them. However, similarly to the US airmen's experiences, the 3 American POWs found that Serbs were not the monsters they were portrayed - quite the contrary, in fact.
  
  Anna P
  California

• Saturday March 22, 2003 at 3:44 am
  Jari,

  Were you on holidays on a remote island when Rwanda was going on? If you weren't, I can't see any justification for your position that the French are as moral as you suggest.

  As far as Srebrenica is concerned, once we get rid of the "established" version of genocide, a version established by media and Nato propaganda, then we can examine a more factual circumstance which may involve some kind of massacre BUT NOT THE ONE THAT'S BEING SOLD AS THE SREBRENICA MASSACRE WHICH IS CALLED GENOCIDE.

  Secondly, you seem keen to excuse the UN from releasing a report on Srebrenica. Why? If their ICTY is meant to establish the truth, what's the problem in releasing the truth!!! If the Serbs were guilty of a massacre so be it. If someone else was guilty so be it. They can't have THEIR OWN fact finding tribunal from which they withhold the facts. Or are the facts so explosive that they consider the propaganda to be more in the public interest?

  Arandjel,

  It is clear you do not like Milosevic. That's fair enough. But it's not fair enough for you to slag on him and want him convicted for the wrong reasons and in a suspect manner employed by the ICTY. Sure, he may have pilfered the kitty, he may be corrupt, he may have been a real ratbag, he may have jailed and beaten your friends, but that's not what he's in the Hague for. When he's finished at the Hague, you can take him back to S&M and try him for all that if you wish.

  As a politician, he's a ratbag in my opinion, a view I hold of ALL politicians. But if that were sufficient, then the ICTY would be busy enough trying zillions of politicians till the end of the milllenium. The issue here is whether we can manage to keep POLITICS out of our national and international legal institutions and retain the principles of justice. Anything less is just merely buying the politicians' game to their advantage and our detriment.

  As for putting salt into one's own wounds, that seems to be a common occurrence in the Balkan region. Perhaps that's why FSRY was destroyed and all that's left is S&M. Nato and Co supplied the sadism, and now you want to supply the masochism? Be my guest.

  I'll hang out for truth and justice at the ICTY, and for me, coming from the "democratic" and "moral" West, that may or may not be painful, we'll see.
  
  David
  Australia

• Saturday March 22, 2003 at 4:26 am
  The principal reason for the ICTY was that a mechanism was required in order to induce the leaders of old YU to do what they were told, considering that the West already knew that they would be a difficult bunch.

  Kucan, Izetbegovic, Tudjman and Milosevic did what they were told. The Bosnian and Krajina Serbs didn't. They were a problem. But it was all sorted out in Dayton and with a little help from their Nato friends, evreything was more or less according to plan. Except for Milosevic's stubborn refusal to hive Kosovo off from Serbia and to privatise Serbia in the manner the West wanted. In other words, he did "assist" in dismantling YU, with token efforts to protect the Serbs in the neighbouring republics.

  But the Kosovo problem remained as the US wanted an alternative oil pipeline and they wanted Kosovo so they could link with Albania which they already had in their pocket courtesy of Sali Berisha (another great statesman - puppet).

  When it became clear that Milosevic wouldn't budge on the Kosovo surrender and the privatisation issue, and when it became clear that the sanctions were not working as anticipated, the US had to assert its authority to achieve its ends. They dragged the rest of Europe into the equation under the threat that Nato was at risk, and the EC countries, not wanting to risk a split and the ire of the US, grudgingly agreed to sacrifice what was left of YU.

  To cut a long story short, Nato needed someone to blame for the bombing and it helped if it could ascribe the destruction of YU to Milosevic and the Serbs as they had already pressured the daylights out of them in Bosnia and Croatia with propaganda. Milosevic was a neat patsy... one man on whom everything could be blamed and who would whitewash the Western globalists role.

  Hence, from being hailed as a peacemaker in Dayton, Milosevic became an even more brutal animal along the lines of Saddam Hussein who, incidentally seemed to have a mind of his own and accepted Euros for oil instead of US dollars, along with Libya and Iran.

  The Milosevic indictment at the ICTY came at a very useful stage in the Kosovo bombing, too useful if one wanted to be extremely cynical. But Kosovo did not have mass killings and genocide of hundreds of thousands as spelled out by Blair and Clinton and Christianne Amanpour and Co. So when they got Milosevic to the Hague they had to scramble and add Croatia and Bosnia just to make sure they could convict him on "cumulative evidence" at least.

  The Prosecution case lacks in quality but they sure seem keen to make it up in quantity. Their ill preparedness seems to confirm their lack of preparation caused by the suddenness of indicting Milosevic at a convenient moment.
  
  David
  Australia

• Saturday March 22, 2003 at 4:30 am
  Walter, it is very important that the Dutch NIOD report says that Milosevic was not involved. However, your quote says involved, but it doesn't say involved in what? Does the NIOD report say there was a massacre, or doesn't it?

  As for the Apeman, who calls me dishonest and propagandist (in his impersonal indirect style), let me put a few questions to him, and I am not happy before the Apeman gives some kind of answer. He has done his best to keep the Racak massacre open, so I am not sure what makes the Srebrenica discussion any different (except that the Racak gives him an excuse to criticize me).

  Was there a massacre or wasn't there?

  If there was, did the French do it? If not, who did? Where are the bodies, and how do we know they were massacred?

  If there wasn't a massacre, why does the Yugoslav officials state as late as 2000, by which time they would have had enough time to find out, that there was a massacre (it uses that very word twice)? Why does it give the exact location, the date, and the number of victims?

  I am sure it is much easier to criticize people who put these questions than trying to answer them. About the total death toll in Bosnia, I am not well-informed. It may be half a million, it may be 50 000. The point is that the Bosnian Serb intransigence was becoming an embarrassment, with the death toll rising, whatever it was to start with.

  The Apeman is on the constant lookout for the mistakes. I really did make a slip and call the Srebrenica massacre a genocide, which happens when you try to see something from all sides. But in fact, I had argued, and I am arguing still, that the massacre was not a genocide per se. As I said, if Arkan was supposedly involved in it, he could say that he fought for Fikret Abdic too. If the massacre was staged to end the war, one could say that its purpose was to end a genocide (or internecine war).

  This is by the way one of the many instances where the Apeman is misquoting me. When Djindic was shot, I defended him by asking what should one do about Kosovo if not partition it, "MURDER the Albanians?" Apparently this was a good question, to which the Apeman had no answer, so he said that I had encouraged people to murder the Albanians. By the way, Tarzan, if Kosovo is not partitioned, should the Albanians be murdered, as Djinjic was.

  So now he is calling me dishonest. It is amazing that he began misunderstanding me right after my criticism of the Greeks. I said that Kemal Atatürk had his reasons for throwing the Greeks out of Turkey, because the Greeks were conquering the country. I used the expression "Kemal had a better idea". So the Apeman gets the bright idea that I subscribed to Kemal's "better idea", and says that Kemal must be my hero.

  Look at me, I am defending myself to someone who uses a pseudonym, which is no less wackier than Tarzan. When I started to address him like one apeman to another, he starts calling me a street brawler. So now I get lessons in good manners from someone calling himself Tarzan.

  Of course, I could criticize him for the part that Canada took in the bombing, if I were to go as low as him. For this once, though, I have to defend Helena Ranta. She was squeamish, but at least she used her own name, unlike Tarzan. And the pressure on her was exercized by such freaks as Tarzan. So what gives Tarzan the right to criticize anybody? Psycho.

  Is he even a Serb, as the "-ovic" would suggest, or is that one of the many delusions? At least his manner of speaking brings to mind the way the two Greeks here try to rally support against me by appealing to common heritage and criticizing me for using tough language. Tarzan is also the first foreigner that I have heard call Macedonia by its Greek name Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, although he wants to make it sound a little more Tarzan-like by calling it Former Yugo Commie Republic of Macedonia.

  And he has as much trouble accepting that Arandjel is really from Serbia as Pythagoras, who had the brilliant theory of an impostor from Srbija. Apparently, Tarzanovic would like us to believe that he is the real voice of the Serbs, so the Serbs from Srbija, shut up.

  To show that I can argue just the way Tarzan does, I could say that he criticized me for being unhappy with the poor professionalism of the prosecution. Wow, that means that Tarzan is happy with the professionalism of the prosecution. And considering how much prosecution lies, that must be his definition of professionalism. By that standard Tarzan is really a professional.

  He also criticized me for supporting Djindjic "undeservedly". Wow, Djindjic had said that Milosevic is not guilty. That means that Tarzan thinks Milosevic is guilty.

  But seriously, the ICTY is a UN organ, and like it or not, it is a legal organ as such. The rest is academic. There is no question Djindjic got his Tarzan treatment when he was alive, in addition to the one that he is getting now in this civilized discussion. And to show how bad Djinjic was, Tarzan wants to remind us how bad things are in Serbia now that he is gone, and this he turns against Arandjel.

  Tarzan is just the kind of war freak that he criticize others of being. The difference is that he likes to side with the losers, which he must consider more noble. When the losers don't want to fight, he calls them cowards. That is why he wants to abandon the noble cause of Milosevic, when Seselj supported the Serbs in Croatia.

  About Chirac's nobility, Anna, you said it, not me. He is a crook, that is what I said. I used the French position to illustrate that the "peace-makers" end up being everybody's suckers, and no-one can deny that.

  But to keep this discussion on track, which the Apeman is derailing, let me say that Milosevic seems a goner, and curiously enough, by his own choice. He may not agree that the massacre was a genocide, but I don't expect him to make any legal arguments, so by admitting the massacre, he admits that there was a genocide. No-one is going to buy the French connection. And as we know, the confessions are supposed to be free and voluntary in this tribunal. Sure, Milosevic doesn't recognize this tribunal, but that may only mean that the rules are bent against him, which means that he doesn't even have to make an official confession, the things what he has already said are quite sufficient.

  And oddly enough, if Milosevic knows something about Srebrenica, he is not going to change his story any more. If he says something which would make him seem an accomplice in the massacre or in the perpetuation of the myth of the massacre, he would not die as the hero he is now trying to elevate himself into. The Srebrenica massacre is the one event that has done the most to stigmatize the Serbs, and the Serbs would never forgive him.

  Of course, these are things that I wouldn't be allowed to say if I were a defense lawyer. However, I explictly said I was not, which Tarzan took to mean that I said I was. This is the latitude of the truth according to Tarzan. And the whole truth according to Tarzan is that Croatia and Slovenia didn't really want independence, they were talked into it by the CIA, and all the other three-letter abbreviations. So now we can see what a bold step the WSJ made when it said that Milosevic's defense relies on the fact that the war was a civil war.
  
  Jari Nousiainen
  Finland

• Saturday March 22, 2003 at 4:38 am
  David,

  That's very concise and brings it all together nicely. I shall use a paraphrasing of your summary, if I may, as the opportunity arises, since I find myself less and less articulate as time goes by. Thanks.

  It's been a pleasure to visit this site with so many erudite people participating from whom I seem to learn something every day. I have Andy to thank for that for pointing me in this direction on his excellent site, slobodan-milosevic.org.
  
  Anna P
  California

• Saturday March 22, 2003 at 4:55 am
  Jari,

  Consider the following statement you made: "by admitting the massacre, he admits that there was a genocide".

  I can tell you that communist Serbs and Roaylist Serbs in WW2 massacred each other too. But genocide it wasn't. How on earth do you manage to make a hyperbole like that?

  The fact that Milosevic seems to know something about "a massacre" around Srebrenica DOES NOT MEAN HE'S TALKING ABOUT THE SAME MASSACRE WE'VE BEEN HEARING IN THE MEDIA! (Not yelling here, just can't find the instructions for bolding LOL)

  As for the evidence and the story he knows, that remains to be seen. I wouldn't necessarily jump to the sorts of conclusions you make. How on earth does knowledge about a massacre amount to admitting a massacre or making a confession? You've only got a snippet of info there, is it enough for you to see the whole story and convict on that basis?

  The above extrapolations you make seem strange (as do some of the more recent ones you've made), so strange that I sometimes wonder whether it is your intention to be provocative in order to stimulate discussion or whether you are short circuiting somewhere. LOL
  
  David
  Australia

• Saturday March 22, 2003 at 5:44 am
  David, I am not going to waste my time with this. You seem to have read my post, because you got your little snippet of info there. Try the whole context, and start by the passage: it is easier to criticize people for putting these questions than trying to answer them.

  Our friend from Srbija is very wise: he understands that people have a blockade about Srebrenica. I hope I have as much patience as Arandelj. I have extra sympathy with you David, because you have admitted that you are an old-fashioned conspiracy theorists. So did the French kill 1,200 Muslims? In which case yhou really trust Milosevic to tell the truth.

  At this point, the thing that keeps me in this discussion is to see what lies the Apeman tells me about next. As Ray Davis said:

  I'm an apeman, I'm an ape, apeman, oh I'm an apeman. I'm a King Kong man, I'm a voodo man, oh I'm an apeman.
  
  J N
  Finland

• Saturday March 22, 2003 at 6:03 am
  Oops. Before some subtle mind sees a CIA conspiracy here, I hasten to correct myself. Arandelj should be Arandjel. Ray Davis should be Ray Davies. No further comments for today.
  
  J N
  Finland

• Saturday March 22, 2003 at 6:16 am
  Jari

  You on drugs, man?
  
  David
  Australia

• Saturday March 22, 2003 at 8:44 am
  Vytas anybody who is traitor... la la la deserves what he gets right? Why are you too much of coward to say that you thought it was good that Djindjic was killed? As Jari said I dont want to go to your level of simple thinking but since it was your country who bombed mine you can... or better than that - what was it like to have war criminal as President Bush and Clinton?

  The worst thing is when people dont have guts to say what they mean.

  Pera Bora you didnt understand my point. Why did Rep Srpska publish a report if nobody was satisfied with it including Rep Srpska and why publish it if its not available to be read? It seem to me waste of time. About humanitarian orgainsations. It depends which one you look at. There is some important information you can find (and to ignore) by reading reports. Refugees recieve help from these organisations, children receive help even. In ideal world there would be no need for organisations like this. But since governments think to spend money on war is more important than peace there is industry connected with this. Necessary evil.

  David no cigar to guess that I dont like Milosevic. My suggestion is that most of you would not like him also if he was your President. To slag him I dont know what means, to critisise former President is my right as it is your right to do same to your leader. But I didnt say I want him to be convicted for wrong reasons. Of course he should be convicted for right reasons but it will not happen. Forgive me if I am not sad that Milosevic goes down at Hague. What is much more important to me is historical facts or what is accepted as fact in future. Its pity Serbs have him and Seselj telling different view. Now we have situation where both sides tell their own story for their own reason. The truth stays hidden. If Milosevic was more honest my opinion about him could change. Dont misunderstand it is not hate in his direction but he betrayed us and we will never forgive him for that. Many Serbs dont watch him because of confusion they feel but his tactic dont work with me. Milosevic does not want to keep politics out of courtroom we can see that. It is actually most interesting part for me when they talk politics. You are right about politicians but only some rule over war, chaos, economic depression, refugees in their nation. Clinton may be war criminal but he was smart because his people didnt suffer.

  Anna If you can put your mind back to 2000 year. There was DOS coalition. This coalition tried also to get Draskovic to support it but he thought he was bigger so he missed out. Coalition had 3 choices one was Covic who had ambitious but last favorite, other was Kostunica who was veteran who was not dirty politician and Stambolic who had been leader of Communist party before Milosevic threw him out. Coalition had to decide which one to support. Problem with Kostunica is that his party was so small. Good thing was his better kind of nationalism. He also was always on news during Milosevic time and did not get bad propoganda that Djindjic did for example.

  By the way its not true that Kostunica did not have support of some countries in West. The French supported Kostunica. Kostunica could have had more support if he had done the work involved (to travel meeting leaders...)

  Stambolic was other serious choice. He was remembered by many and advantage could be that he would take votes direct from Milosevic SPS. He was my choice but I was happy with Kostunica as well because he was not thought of to be dirty and maybe somebody could finally show that patriotism doesnt have to come with blood. Stambolic was kidnapped and assasinated (but lets not talk about that now) so we were left with Kostunica. Kostunica when agreed to be candidate was chosen by many parties, some were stronger than him but they made sacrifice to get Milosevic out. Choice was good because he is good figure but not real leader. That probably nothing new for you but to go extradition of Milosevic. This is where we see Kostunica character. He pretend he said he doesnt know that Milosevic to be exported to Hague to carry support. We find out he knows plus later that he actually signed letter to agree export with all other DOS leaders at meeting. Then he give Milosevic guarantee that he wont go to Hague! This letter is with Micunovic. This Kristmas we found out this information. So this is what politican do - of course but there are 2 problems with Kostunica for me. One is he coward when it is about (any)responsibility and two is that he just criticise other ones when doing nothing himself. This is why he still popular in Serbia because he does not have courage to take unpopular decision. In fact he never had to make unpopular decision. My apologies for bad thought out writing and mistakes. Maybe better if you ask me some specifik question.

  Jari your post had me on floor laughing.
  
  Arandjel P V
  Srbija

• Saturday March 22, 2003 at 11:42 am
  Guts to say what they mean?

  While on the SUC forum for about three years this is what I observed. The posters who were for the Serbs were usually from Canada and maybe one or two from Australia. The posters were very angry at America. The Americans, not the people, the government and in some cases the people as well, were the culprits, the ones who bombed and badgered Serbs.

  Finally I woke up. I reminded the Canadian posters that Canada was not an innocent bystander. You know what happened? That poster never came on SUC again. You know what I thought? He was afraid to take part in something that would jeopardize his standing in Canada.

  It is amusing to read some of the posts offered by the Canadians when they criticize Americans such as myself. I say to them.....at least I have the backbone to admit that I think the United States was wrong in the bombing of Serbia and Iraq. At least I had the backbone to write many, many letters to the President of the United States, to the Representatives and to the Senators. I wrote with respect. At least I had the backbone to pick up the telephone and make calls to CNN, ABC, NBC, PBS and everyone else you could think of. At least I offered to be in protest marches.What did you do?

  You never criticize Canada. Oh no! Who started the phrase, “Serbia is a pariah state?” Let me ask you? Did you ever once criticize Canada? As for the Americans who come on line and hate everything about America I am reminded of a roommate I had at one time who was from Germany. A German girl. Every day she woke up she grumbled about America. When I got sick and tired of it, I reminded her of the planes and ships that left here daily. She said to me that she stayed here, “for the American dollar.” Well......she found something she liked.For myself, I find a lot I like.

  
  
  Kathryn Love
  SJC
  USA

• Saturday March 22, 2003 at 11:53 am
  BBC report quotes the Dutch that Milosevic was not involved in the Srebrenica “massacre”. This Dutch report as you well know Jari and I believe that you have quoted it here in your previous posts speaks of a massacre. I am quoting a BBC report not the NIOD report. The BBC report states that “former Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic - on trial at The Hague on a genocide charge citing Srebrenica - is not linked to the killings by the researchers. “

  I think I was quite clear on my view on Srebrenica. One dead person is one too many. A good general, according to some ancient Chinese sage, is the one that wins the battle without causing any casualties on either side. That I think means “NEGOTIATE”. As to what took place at Srebrenica I subscribe that retreating “columns protected by Bosnian Moslem soldiers, who were shooting at the Serbs as they fought their way through the lines at Srebrenica, trying to reach their own enclave” were killed in a process.

  It seems that some people on this post accept pseudonyms on this post and others do not. I personally don’t. If you subscribe to democracy and protection of your constitutional rights to free speech as long as you don’t libel others I am not sure what your fear is. On the other hand there are those societies where freedom of speech is lip service. Dixie Chicks understand this well as do hundreds of others who dare not say anything public that is critical of the powers that be for fear of compromising their livelihood. For this reason I can understand, but not excuse, the use of pseudonyms because your post’s legitimacy is compromised.

  Further more, I am in total agreement with a pseudonym Tarzan however ridiculous when he/she writes “All of this irrefutable evidence serves to support the unavoidable conclusion that in all cases of the past 12 years, the wars in the Balkans were not civil conflicts at all, so much as aggression conducted on the part of foreign powers, in alliance with secessionist Yugoslav proxies, against the SFRJ and its loyalist population, all of which were lumped together, in a deliberate and malicious falsehood of the "genocide" sort already noted, as "Serbs". And to state the obvious, the so-called "humanitarian bombers" were promoting exactly the sort of ethnic and racial hate-politics they were claiming to oppose, and excusing their intervention in the process.” I find it, however, counterproductive to “name call”. Like using pseudonyms, name calling diminishes the substance of the debate.

  Talk about massacres and lies we are witnessing it once more with every bomb and every word from this criminal administration in Washington. Why bomb buildings where one knows full well have been evacuated. I am not sure how many of you saw the continuous target shoot on an Iraqi vessel in the estuary of the Tigris-Euphrates River. It was nothing more than wanton killing.
  
  Walter Trkla
  Kamloops BC
  Canada

• Saturday March 22, 2003 at 12:28 pm
  Arandjel and Jari,

  I don't think that you can accuse Milosevic of "sitting on the truth" regarding Srebrenica. He hasn't had the oppourtunity to present his case on that matter yet.

  I'm sure he does know something because he has said that he knows something. He just hasn't had the chance yet to tell us what he knows, but he has alluded to it, and I think it has to do with what Goran Matic was saying in 2000. Lets just wait and see what he has to say. It does no good to criticize him now, just be patient and wait and see what he says.
  
  Andy Wilcoxson
  Washington, United States

• Saturday March 22, 2003 at 2:31 pm
  Kathryn,

  Please don’t wave the flag in our faces.

  That trite kind of response to persons who complain about this country of reminding them about the ships and planes that daily leave it, what does it mean? Is that a “love it or leave it ultimatum?” Do people not have the right to find objectionable that which is objectionable? And what is so surprising about the fact that people come here for the dollar? This is a country that values the dollar above everything else, yet we should condemn those that follow that lead? I say that if we want foreigners to come here for the culture and the people then, as a country, we have to promote the culture and the people, not the dollar. In the U.S. you will almost invariably get a higher prison sentence for destroying property, or stealing money, than for killing another human being, and why? Because the dollar is valued above human life. The courts prove it. Of course, if you’re a man of wealth and influence with the right friends you probably won’t get punished much for anything.

  The U.S. exports these same values everywhere in the world with its global influence, no, dominance. The outrage critics of the U.S. feel is directly associated with the fact that the U.S. represents itself as one thing but behaves as another. It has, as a country, always had enormous potential to be truly great, but for a hundred years it has not gone down that road; instead it has allowed its leaders to take us down dirty paths, seeking money and power and influence for the sake of obtaining more money and power and influence. It is hard not to resent this neglect of, or lip service only to, supposed American ideals. Yes, there are many good things about the U.S. and there are many good things about other countries, too, and this country has nothing on a lot of them. What it does have is a superiority complex that is passed on in constant, subtle propaganda to all of us from early childhood.

  I would take a guess that you have never spent any substantial time abroad. Believe me, it's enlightening when you get some physical distance on this country. Some of us were born here, some of us were brought here by our immigrant parents, some of us came because of economic hardship in our home countries, some as political refugees, as I was. How dare you suggest that we should love it or leave it? The politics that cause people hardship in many countries from which refugees escape are more often than not a result of U.S. meddling and influence, as you well know. And anyway, even if we came here for political reasons, we were soon turned into economic slaves in this country that allows election of power mongers, those who are all in a big club and looking out for each other, such as the regular annual partakers of the Bohemian Grove, from whence world decisions come, made in secret, by the good ol’ boys network where deals are made in each other’s interests, not the country’s. Instead of pointing out ships and planes that leave here for other places, you would do this country more good iby listening to the complaints and concerns voiced about it. If a foreigner finds something objectionable here, it is because he or she has known something better and knows it can be better - why should they accept a lower standard, whether political or cultural? A common complaint from foreigners is the ignorance and insularity of the American population where only a miniscule minority only has ever gone beyond the borders of its home states and even fewer care about anything beyond their backyards. This contrasts strongly with any people in Europe, for example. Who wouldn’t be irritated when U.S. news broadcasters, knowing their audience, put up a map during the 1999 NATO aggression to show Americans where Yugoslavia is located? Heck, they have to show us where Britain is!

  All this having been said, I, for one, would love to leave and intend to. What prevents me so far? The American global meddling and that has ruined so many places that my options are very few. As a citizen of the U.S., I have a right to be here or to leave, as it should be. I am a better citizen for having critical opinions of that which I see is wrong than others who pound their chest in jingoistic fervor about anything the U.S. does - my country right or wrong! Some of us would like to stay if we could lift this country up to a higher level, one where it actually represents that which it espouses to represent . You, yourself, disagree with American policy of bombing everything to hell as the first solution, but that could not happen if the American population were truly educated and honestly disagreed with that way of doing things, AND if this were the real democracy it lauds itself to be. Instead, Americans are kept on safe leash by the use of poor education, misinformation, and most important, a climate of FEAR. Fear is what makes so many Americans today support the bombing of Iraq. Misinformation had them supporting the NATO bombing of Serbia. Lies, lies and more lies keep them in the dark about what the real motives behind these criminal actions are. I, for one, cannot softly glow about America while things are the way they are.
  
  Anna P
  California

• Saturday March 22, 2003 at 2:41 pm
  those who support the American Action in Iraq, who are blindly nationalistic, WELCOME TO GERMANY 1939. Fortunately, I can see that there are many Americans who are not so blind. To criticize your president is to protect your constitution. Americans who value their constitution are in their thousands in the streets saying IT WILL BE YOU TOMORROW unless we stop this madness today.

  At this moment I am reminded of Haile Selassie’s speech to the league of Nations after Italy so cruelly attacked his country and I quote some excerpts below:

  "I, Haile Selassie I, Emperor of Ethiopia, am here today to claim that justice which is due to my people, and the assistance promised to it eight months ago, when fifty nations asserted that aggression had been committed in violation of international treaties.”

  I pray to Almighty God that He may spare nations the terrible sufferings that have just been inflicted on my people, and of which the chiefs who accompany me here have been the horrified witnesses. It is my duty to inform the Governments assembled in Geneva, responsible as they are for the lives of millions of men, women and children, of the deadly peril which threatens them, by describing to them the fate which has been suffered by Ethiopia. It is not only upon warriors that the Italian Government has made war. It has above all attacked populations far removed from hostilities, in order to terrorize and exterminate them.

  Here Kathryn Love I am also reminded of Martin Niemoller speaking in 1945 about being silent.

  “First they came for the Communists,

  and I didn’t speak up,

  because I wasn’t a Communist.

  Then they came for the Jews,

  and I didn’t speak up,

  because I wasn’t a Jew.

  Then they came for the Catholics,

  and I didn’t speak up,

  because I was a Protestant.

  Then they came for me,

  and by that time there was no one

  left to speak up for me.”

  by Rev. Martin Niemoller, 1945

  
  
  Walter Trkla
  Kamloops BC
  Canada

• Saturday March 22, 2003 at 2:55 pm
  

  Arandjel, I understood you quite well. We have different opinion on the topic of the Report of Republic of Srpska on Srebrenica. I think that the report is band by the New World Order Master. You obviously think that since the report is nowhere to be found it means that it is worthless. I would suggest that you probably trust too much to the leis manufactured by the West. You pointed me quite readily to some critics of the report. Do you agree with them? If you do. How do you know that the critics are right when you have not seen the report yourself? Arandjel you said: " But I didnt say I want him to be convicted for wrong reasons. Of course he should be convicted for right reasons but it will not happen. Forgive me if I am not sad that Milosevic goes down at Hague." My comment: Yes you want Mr. Milosevic convicting for the wrong reasons and that false charges are O.K. Mr. Markovic, Uppssss I am sorry this is not lapsus lingve but "lapsus fingers". I will not make this error again.

  Arandjel I have noticed that the New World Order Masters have quite a power in twisting hands in the name of democracy to achieve their goals "democratically". How about bringing false charges against anybody that they politically do not like in the Balkans even some patriots like Mr. Kostunica? What criteria are you using to decide what false charges by them are O.K. and what false charges are not? How about bringing false charges against your friend that was arrested in Belgrade? Let me suggest your reason may be: "It is O.K. I like this government" or I may say: "It is O.K. I disagree with Arandjel in the discussion at the forum. Arangel's fried is falsely accused not mine. Let them suffer it will teach them a lesson."

  On the humanitarian organizations I think that they are better off if they do their work and live politics to others. In the wars of the Former Yugoslavia they did a lot of politics much less of humanitarian work. When it came to the humanitarian help for the Serbs they have been quite selective and per capita Serbs got much less help than the others. I taught that the Humanitarian organizations are supposed to be fair.

  The truth stays hidden not because of Mr. Milosevic or Seselj but because of the ICTY. Mr. Milosevic and Seselj have a control over a small peace of truth. The ICTY has a control over much more of it. The prosecution brought in many, many witnesses that lied and Mr. Milosevic quite easily proved that using the prosecution's documentation. They are making Mr. Milosevic hero not us that are against the ICTY. Even worse they are making him a martyr. If the New World Order Masters where honest and the ICTY was good intended Mr. Milosevic would be history many Years ago and the wars in the Former Yugoslavia would be less bloody and no Humanitarian organizations would be needed. We would not have NATO in the Balkans and Bondstil in Kosovo. Nobody would be given a chance of self-inflicting occupation by voluntarily bagging to be allowed into the Partnership for Peace or to join the Coalition of the Willing. What a cruel joke and humiliation?

  Americans are less vulnerable to attacks not thanks to Mr. Clinton "clever politics" but thanks to their war machine and financial power. The fact that they are living on a huge Island far, far away from where their bombs are falling. They are currently attacking and teaching lessons to tiny nations with token military capability. On the other hand 9-11 shows that they are not as untouchable as they believed in. And this has not happened since Osama Bin Laden did not like their way of life (What a lie?) but because American polititians have created a MONSTER. I am proposing that the American politicians are very dangerous to their people.

  The truth will stays hidden because Mr. Milosevic will be accused on the false charges. Why do we need that when there are real crimes that he should be charged for? Bringing false charges against people is very much characteristic of dictatorships or "uebermensch" based regimes regardless of how "honorable and humane" are their intentions. And once more: How about bringing false charges against your friend that was arrested in Belgrade? Back to Maquiavel I guess? What about: "Ko drugome jamu kopa sam u nju pada". (What goes around comes around.)

  How about: One who justifies lying will use a lie whenever it suits his goals. Lets not read post by people promoting lies as justifiable means of accepting their goals. They are not trust worthy.
  
  Pera Bora
  Ottawa
  Canada

• Saturday March 22, 2003 at 3:26 pm
  Some are more equal than others... http://www.bilderberg.org/bohos.htm

  http://www.sonic.net/~kerry/bohemian/

  http://www.fair.org/extra/best-of-extra/bohemian-grove.html

  http://www.fsahq.com/bohemian_grove.htm
  
  Anna P
  California

• Saturday March 22, 2003 at 4:18 pm
  Pera Bora Correct me if Im wrong but waste of time does not mean worthless it mean something else. Somehting that written and not read is to me waste of time. That is my opinion. You didnt understand unless you wanted me to mean something else but what I mean and want you want me to say are different.

  Then you tell me that I believe in lens of west. What does that mean? Where is evidence for this? My problem is not to believe west or media here both now and at time of Milosevic. Does that make me propogandaed, no more than anyone else. I use the computer like everyone use, we read same reports and use our brain to take truth out of report to depend on who we trust. It is normal. I do not doubt your view (apart from New Order which I would say is not new at all since imperialism has been going for so long).

  Again you are making asuming (that I lie)something about me when you say that I want Milosevic to be tried on wrong charges. Wrong it does only concern me in term of history the way it looks at Serbs. My own feelings I alredy said it is all the same to me. Its as much care he showed to tens thousands of people he let down here If its wrong to feel this way then that too bad. My only interest in verdict is to see that he is innocent of Genocide, because it will stay with Serbs and it is not true and I dont really believe Greater Serbia plan. If he is found inocent then there should be immediate trial in Serbia when he return. Situation in Serbia (with removal of corrupt public prosecutor) now actually make this likely but then maybe he will again be guilty before he walks in court room. There is no justice in the world and just as little in court room. Does that mean we should let all criminals free? (I say criminal so dont say war criminal since you like to put word in my mouth).

  What is puzzle to me Mr Bora is your angry in my direction. Just what about my opinion so strange? Or did you also get upset about comment addressed to the Greek in US? Yes I have right to opinion that not same as yours.

  Your comment about my friend also is puzzle to me. Are you saying he deserve to be arrested? You are comparing my friend with Milosevic. My friend never made his party members rich from money stolen from people. He did not betrayed tens of thousands of Serbs. He never sent this country down to bottom level. If you dont think this is important and if it makes me not honest then let it be.
  
  Arandjel P V
  Srbija

• Saturday March 22, 2003 at 4:18 pm
  Anna P.,

  It is really appalling to see the incessant slander and abusive language on this board, as exercised by the baord's foremost practitioners. A warning was already issued about how this would lead itself to a loss of prestige, or credibility, but it was ignored. And what can anyone expect from engaging in dialogue with those who use language and posturing closer to that of drunken street brawlers than "defense lawyers"? What are they defending anyhow? So far it appears that it is the criminal propaganda of the aggressors and their chief agents (Morrillion, Ranta, et al). And now it appears that they are denying the total existence of twelve years' long record of international aggression against the state of Yugoslavia, and therefore reality itself.

  A word of thanks here is necessary to some of our Greek and other contributors for not engaging in a shouting match with the street brawler who abuses this board for his own personal pleasure; floating hazardous trial balloons up in the air, and then proceeding to attack anybody so foolish as to mistake this for an honest method of soliciting "input", as our resident flag-waver put it. For the street brawler, it is a victory and yet only in his own warped imagination, where notions such as Bulgaria having "more to lose" than EU and NATO member Greece are constantly dreamed up, and of course, posted here immmediately afterward.

  The most recent posts, as those seen here much earlier, admit of a wonton disregard for what others write, and thereby serving as further evidence of the futility of engaging in dialogue with such persons. Our resident Djindjic fan, for example, did not even attempt to challenge the excellent points made by the contributor from PA, but rather brushed them aside while, naturally enough, maliciously distorting the substance of the entire post. Apparently another name was added to his own ICTY-like investigation of persons responsible for the murder of his former Prime Minister, for which he has already accused all correspondents here as responsible. Anna, did you notice the shamelessly half-hearted attempt to excuse his actions, claiming -falsely- this was a an unavoidable reaction after witnessing some correspondents here "rejoiced" in the aftermath of the assassination - something which never happened, and almost all correspondents here would never contemplate. The exception, of course, provided by one particular street brawler who has already gone on record here to applaud the long record of criminal actions on the part of Ataturk and the Turkish Army.

  
  
  Nico Tarzanovic
  CAN

• Saturday March 22, 2003 at 4:46 pm
  
  Sycophancy or just plain sick

  Some 500 people demonstrated in support of US war on Iraq on Friday in the Kosovo capital Pristina.

  Methinks they doth protest too much

  "The war against Iraq is not against the people of Iraq, it is for the freedom of the people of Iraq," said Sadik Halitjaha, president of the Veterans Association of the now dismantled Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA), which organized the demonstration.

  Tell that to the Kurds. The Yanks get over-fly rights in Turkey and the Turkish army marches into Kurdistan: In spite of US protestations.

  Violence is not an appropriate response to political problems as the aftermath of Kosovo and Afghanistan amply demonstrate. As the BBC engage in their third major war in four years I gaze into my - admittedly cracked - crystal ball and see these violent assaults hastening, not forestalling, the day when a pretty little sailing boat harbouring a deadly nuclear mine floats innocently into New York Harbour and the London Docks.

  Oh! I nearly forgot: BBC is a TLA for Blair, Bush and Clinton.

  And TLA is a TLA for Three Letter Acronym.
  
  Peter Taylor
  Herts/UK

• Saturday March 22, 2003 at 4:48 pm
  
  
  HTML Correction
  Hopefully

• Saturday March 22, 2003 at 6:51 pm
  

  Arandjel, I think that you understood me quite well. I was not equating your friend with Mr. Milosevic, as you know. I was just pointing that once when justice based on false accusations is accepted as good enough for some it will be applied to others as well. To be more specific you are qualifying this type of justice as not being ideal. Everybody should be assumed innocent until proven guilty. If prosecution and the police are incapable even criminals have right to walk free. In your post you clearly indicate that you are only partially interested in truth on what happened in Yugoslavia. You are interested in truth that supports your own interest nothing less nothing more. How about as it is accepted in all democratic jurisdictional systems whole truth and nothing but the truth. In the ICTY that you expect to save you from Mr. Milosevic and selected set of lies most of the witnesses look as if there oath was: "I swear on this Bible that I would say whole lie and nothing but the lie, so help me god."

  My comment has nothing to do with your opinion on or post on a Greek in USA, but it has a lot to do with your position that the ICTY is the only means that you have to save you form Mr. Milosevic and your accusations that opponents of the ICTY are supporters of Mr. Milosevic and somehow helped murder of Mr. Djindjic.

  As far as I know Mr. Milosevic is politically defeated in Serbia, so politically he can not get in power any more. My opinion is that an arm rebellion is not possible as well. So how is the ICTY only guarrant of your freedom I do not get it.
  
  Pera Bora
  Ottawa
  Canada

• Saturday March 22, 2003 at 7:37 pm
  AFP, March 22, 2003 Bomb blasts damage two police stations in Kosovo capital PRISTINA, Serbia and Montenegro, (AFP) - Bomb explosions rocked two police stations in Kosovo's capital Pristina late Friday, causing damage to the buildings and vehicles but no casualties, a UN official said. It was not immediately clear who was responsible for the blasts, which took place in different parts of the city within one hour, Al Garcia, spokesman for the UN police in Pristina told AFP. "At around 8:30 pm two explosive devices went off at a police station in central Pristina, followed by another explosion at a different police station in the west of the city," Garcia said. Two police vehicles were damaged and windows were shattered in the police stations and buildings nearby. No injuries were reported. "We have no suspects for the time being. Security has been heightened at other police stations in the city," Garcia said. The police stations were jointly run by the local police force and the more than 4,000-strong UN police force in the UN-administrated province. One of them housed regional specialized units tasked with combating organized crime. Kosovo is part of Serbia and Montenegro, but has been under UN and NATO control since 1999, after the NATO alliance conducted a 78-day bombing campaign to force former Yugoslav president Slobodan Milosevic to end a crackdown on ethnic Albanians in the province.
  
  Dakic Ana
  Serbia

• Saturday March 22, 2003 at 7:40 pm
  AP, March 20, 2003 U.S. official criticizes Croatia's wavering support of U.S-led coalition ZAGREB, Croatia - U.S. Ambassador to Croatia Wednesday criticized the Croatian government for its wavering support for the U.S.-led assault on Iraq. "I am disappointed with the position of the Croatian government," Ambassador Lawrence G. Rossin told the independent weekly Globus. "We are talking about war and peace. However, your government has decided to shirk its responsibility and play a reserved role." Croatia was one of the first transition countries lending outright support for the U.S.-led coalition in disarming Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein, but its support for a military solution to the crisis flagged as the war approached. Prime Minister Ivica Racan said Wednesday that Croatia would not back down from its commitment to open up its airspace and landing bases for refueling of U.S. civilian aircraft. However, he linked further support to a reluctant parliament and U.N. resolutions. Croatia, which recently formally applied for membership into the European Union, has been walking a tight rope between the United States and war-leery European powers, who hold the key to entry into the EU. "I don't see the contradiction," Racan said. "We will not join in military action unless it is approved by the United Nations, but we will offer certain forms of cooperation like France and Germany." Although France and Germany have strongly opposed going to war with Iraq, they have pledged logistical support. Ambassador Rossin warned that Croatia's irresolute stance would have repercussions upon U.S-Croat relations. "I don't know what nature they will be, but there will be (consequences). That is inevitable," Rossin was quoted as saying.
  
  Dakic Ana
  Serbia

• Saturday March 22, 2003 at 8:10 pm
  Well put Pera.

  Arandjel came on as a bleeding heart for Djindjic and his family and accused anyone who supported Milosevic's case, as against supporting Milosevic himself, of cold heartedness. He expressed pity for us.

  Contrast this with his position as regards to whether Milosevic is rightly or wrongly convicted. That doesn't matter as he simply hates Milosevic and doesn't care what happens to him or why, as long as it's something bad.

  Now that's principled thinking!

  It amazes me that people like Arandjel keep missing the point about the ICTY and why it is bad, just as bad for Arandjel as for the rest of us. It amazes me that they do not see the forest for the trees and that his thirst for revenge against Milosevic is so supportive of travesties such as the ICTY.

  I would find it much more acceptable if he expressed his vengeance against Milosevic by not masquerading behind a caring, humane, bleeding heart veneer the likes of with which he entered this discussion.

  Don't cry for me Arandjel-ina. If you really want to clean up YU, do your best and get Milosevic out of the ICTY cesspool of politics. Bring him home, give him a fair trial and get your own hands dirty instead of relying on someone else to keep your hands clean for the wrong reasons.
  
  David
  Australia

• Saturday March 22, 2003 at 8:26 pm
  Allow me to make a following comparison:

  Case I

  In a small country a president of the country was killed by two bullets. This resulted in a massive shock and comments throughout the “civilized world” that this was a criminal act. This was an assassination.

  Case II

  In a much larger country a president was attacked by guided missiles and bombs. Perhaps killed. This was called by a” civilized world” a target of opportunity!

  To me both acts are criminal acts!
  
  D Jovanovic
  USA

• Saturday March 22, 2003 at 8:37 pm
  Mr Jovanovic

  A most worthy comment. It's all on the basis of the "might is right" principle. Presumably, that's what we are fighting against by means of discussions such as this one.
  
  David
  Australia

• Saturday March 22, 2003 at 10:10 pm
  Interesting Russian site dedicated to news re: Invasion of Iraq (daily summary in English, rest in Cyrillic)

  http://www.iraqwar.ru/

  A very different perspective than what one gets from the Pentagon :) :)
  
  AP V
  NY
  NY

• Saturday March 22, 2003 at 11:04 pm
  AP V, thanks for the site.
  
  Pera Bora
  Ottawa
  Canada

• Sunday March 23, 2003 at 1:28 am
  Anna:

  > You imagine that I am a red neck living in a small town in California who never saw the outside world and maybe just fell off the turnip truck? I am at the age where I have seen much, been many places and have learned more than I wanted to know.

  A year and a half ago, I visited Serbia, I was in Belgrade, in the countryside and in Montenegro and then in Greece. I was with an Orthodox priest on a pilgrimage.Not one Serb spoke unkindly to me. In fact, I was very proud of them for their dignity and their very good looks and great posture.

  Just before the war broke out in Kosovo I was in Belgium.While in Belgium I was given a lecture by a driver, about Bosnians causing trouble in Belgium, he also asked a million questions about the US, and then broke into song, imitating Frank Sinatra.

  I was in Germany, England, France, Italy, Switzerland. Not once did anyone say to me that they disliked Americans. In fact most told me they had relatives living in the US. An Italian waiter told me that it is his dream to come to the United States. They may not like the government but they like the people and they want to live here.

  At this time I have a light burning in my window along with a stained glass drawing of the Madonna in coordination with hundreds of thousands across this country in opposition to an unjust war. Hundreds of thousands of Americans have opposed the bombing and are still showing their opposition by protest marches.

  The Greens have been having protest marches every weekend. “Moveon” an American organization has been having protest marches, taking out ads against the war,and signing petitions. Last Saturday there was a protest march in Los Angeles and I was informed of this by Serbian Americans who were participating in the march for peace. I am sorry that the same was not done for the Serbian people, but I am glad they are doing it for Iraq.In my opinion it is a war for oil and Israel.

  Anna in the United States we have freedom of speech and if I want to criticize your constant barrage of hate for the United States that is my prerogative. If you want to live in a country that you find nothing good to say about,then be my guest. Do notice that the Canadians do not say one thing against Canada’s participating in Serbian bashing. You do not have to lecture me on why immigrants come to the United States. I know all about it. I come from a family of immigrants. My father never said he was here for the American dollar but he went to work every day for one thing his paycheck. Without money you cannot survive. Survival is different from greed. All countries are the same when it comes to greed. Why do you think Djindjic sold Milosevic to the Hague? Why do you think so many countries went along with the bombing of Serbia? To say you are living here only for the “American dollar” brings a bad taste to ones mouth.

  I have a friend who as a child spent time in a Japanese camp during the war. Her mother took her back to Japan after the war. My friend returned on her own in 1957 and remained here.

  I have Italian friends who told me their people suffered when Italy was bombed by Americans. They had relatives living in Italy. Italy was on the wrong side but nevertheless these were their relatives. Yet the Italian Americans praise the US as their country.

  Walter, and Nico, sorry but this is my country and if that offends you, so be it. ....but I have not heard either of you admit that Canada was knee deep in dehumanizing the Serbian people.

  I am not happy with Canada either.

  
  
  Kathryn Love
  SJC
  USA

• Sunday March 23, 2003 at 1:37 am
  Just watch what happens after the bombing stops. One by one they will line up behind the United States. How can you respect them?
  
  Kathryn Love
  SJC
  USA

• Sunday March 23, 2003 at 5:51 am
  Unusual student had often strange ideas for people around him.He sauced himself in high school when he expected to be praised for his grounded critic of law which announced Tito life-long president.In following years he was active in student organization(sentenced one year);prof. Micunovic proposed him to come to Germany.The door of the building were closed so he found opened window on the toillete and directly entered cabinet of Jürgen Habermas(NATO bombing was justifiable exception for him).He told Djindjic:"Before more than thousand years Slavs entered Europe in the same way.You will get far(Daleko cete dogurati)".

  Djindjic's character shouldn't be identified with his political pragmatism.People didn't trust him.No one could give concrete proof that he cooperated with or protected criminals.Links were indirect: travelling in airplain of Stanko Subotic-Cane, or, his bestman was D. Markovic whose bestman is Lubisa Buha-Cume from Surcin.Milan Beko ,exminister for privatization and member of YUL was also Djindjic's bestman. Democratic party participated in federal government in nineties. After 117 days of protests in 1996/97 ,crisis ended when Djindjic secretly met Milosevic.

  Djindjic knew that he can't change other people.He was the only one who was able to keep 17 parties together.Some of extremely unpopular ministers, irregularities during privatization, breaking laws more times then Milosevic used to do it, have produced such anger which Djindjic undertook on himself -"I will be lightning conductor" .

  Djindjic despised criticisers and philosophers because he was the one.He was man with strong will who was improving himself every day.He wanted everybody to change themselves.If everyone would take one hour a day things would go "little better and little better" and then "much better and much better". People didn't share his enthusiasm while he was grabbing power and subordinating everything to one aim.He wanted to correct historical "defect" and to bring Serbia into Europe. Naively he believed in European help for showing good intentions, fulfilling all their demands and conducting "reforms" in short time.

  It may be good for David from Australia to know that Djindjic didn't support NATO bombing. Mr Trkla could ask himself who was supposed to be Brankovic when Milos,founder of Serbian state,sent Karadjordje's head to Istambul. In the moment of making concrete agreement some of the worst oposition leaders were speaking about moral and principles.Djindjic rightly proposed: "Who wants moral he should go to church". Ideal for spitting.

  Serbs in diaspora don't know how inteligent and charming Djindjic was. People enjoyed to imitate his gestures and to joke with his metaphors and specific comparisons."If you have to swallow a frog ,don't watch it too long.If you have to swallow several frogs ,swallow the biggest first" - that's how he advised Europeans to start dealing with Kosovo problem. Attending sport matches and rock concerts was part of his promotion in western style. It is hard to find him pair among European politicians today. Very kind man and clean soul.

  Serbia wasn't in shock.Serbia was in deep sorrow.People were crying as for a member of their family.

  For Zoki.
  
  milan masic
  serbia

• Sunday March 23, 2003 at 6:15 am
  David, maybe Ray Davies was on drugs, I don't know. Now can I ask you a question? David, do you still beat your wife?

  I find Tarzan's postings increasingly hard to comprehend. What I gathered from his/her latest post was that he/she doesn't think my questions about Srebrenica worth answering, neither those about Kosovo. What do you like discuss then, O Tarzan?

  Some people are really hard to please. When I started talking about Macedonia, Pythagoras wanted me to talk about the trial, because that was what he said I did best, and now that I am talking about the trial, I am being lectured by Tarzan on good manners.

  If you, O Tarzan, think it is good that the Greeks don't engage in a shouting match, then what do you think you are doing? Shame on you. Shame. Street brawler. Apeman.

  Talking about slander, I had to pause and think what Tarzan means by anti-Serb propaganda. Is Arandjel and the other voices from Serbia "anti-Serb" too, because they don't realize how brainwashed they are?

  Vera is then paraded as a good Serb. However, I have always found Vera an exceptional individual, in many ways. At least her memory is exceptional, when she can remember so clearly a testimony by a KLA fighter from last June.

  I would also like to dwell on the nature of the conspiracy. Obviously it was thought by some that I couldn't be a Finn, for whatever reason. This suspicion has been stated by Stylianos the Greek (NATO) and Pero the Canadian (NATO) Serb. Then something clicked in Tarzan's head: something to do with Ranta. Tarzan realized I was a Finn. And all of a sudden we had a flurry of conspiracy theories about Finns.

  The lesson: the most subtle conspiracies are those where everybody is telling the truth, because that really gets the subtle minds disoriented. Subtle minds use subtle pseudonyms, like Tarzan. In fact, I realized that my last name could be written Nou-CIA-inen, which must have drawn the conspiracy theorists' attention immediately. Yes, Jagos, I notices the "anus" too.

  Walter and Andy, I thank ye for not descending to a shouting match with the a street brawler. Instead ye had the decency to answer my questions. I can accept Andy's advice to keep patient, but in the meantime let me state clearly what we need to know.

  Where are the corpses of the massacre? Does the NIOD mention that? I think we will have to accept that the Bosnian authorities are right to insist on the massacre, consisting of bodies cut to small pieces. Only, the claim of 8,000 victims seems to be indisputably false.

  The problem with the NIOD report - which reportedly discharged Milosevic - is that Milosevic needs the Dutch to be involved in the coverup too, so obviously their word can't be trusted. True, Goran Matic's report only referred to suspicious behaviour of the Dutch, but obviously the French peacekeepers would have needed the Dutch in the coverup too. Besides, the Muslims have failed to establish the Dutch link, which would be in their interests too.

  Milosevic will have a tough time selling the French connection. Put Arkan side by side with the French peace-keepers. Who do you think is the more likely suspect of a massacre? You can say: the French, for all I care. Just don't keep calling me names, if you do.

  David, refresh my memory. What did the French do in Rwanda? When I think back of aggressive behaviour of the French, I have to think of the Kosovo bombing. That was really something.

  As to Djindjic handing Milosevic to The Hague, one has to remember something. Yugoslavia had just been accepted to the UN as a new member under Kostunica. That made Yugoslavia under Milosevic a non-member. What was Yugoslavia to do? Cooperation with the ICTY was a non-issue under Milosevic, because it had dropped out of the UN anyway, but the post-Milosevic Yugoslavia couldn't neglect its duties. It would have been expelled, and Tarzan doesn't like that.

  As to the civil war and the foreign involvement, which was first: the indendence movement or the foreign support? Was the Croatian and Kosovo independence movements a hoax? I got the impression that the RCMP and CIA were hunting these people until they thought they might just as well give up.
  
  Jari Nousiainen
  Finland

• Sunday March 23, 2003 at 7:35 am
  Peter Bora

  If you like the site......http://www.iraqwar.ru/.......then pass it on to others...they appear to have a English summary every day towards mid-afternoon EST.

  
  
  AP V
  NY
  NY

• Sunday March 23, 2003 at 10:11 am
  Careful Milan you could be accused of being the Djindjic supporter! But then it wont happen to you, these cowards only pick on one or two at time. To the idiots who keep saying that I am, well Milosevic supporter would say that. That right gloves are off as they say.

  Despite my polite request (and in my last post no reference to the character) Tarzanovic decides to pick a fight. Well Tarzanovic is your govenment as cowardly as you are? Tell me do you know what it is like to be bombed or do you pretend to be from down here? It is of interest. Somehow Tarzanovic its easy to hide behind words of outrage. It takes man to actually live in situation and look for rational explanation, not to see conspiracy everywhere.

  But its good to have these accusation against me. Let me see Im a liar, pretending to be somebody else - nothing better to do, maybe retired CIA, hate Milosevic (even though I said its not hate, dislike or just to be indifferent), dont believe in justice (thats right anybody who does lives on some other planet), anybody care to put more things? Its not first time I felt on outside. We Serbs are used to it. That right too many intelectual point put to me for my crazy Serb brain to understand. HOW ABOUT ISSUE PEOPLE?

  Pera you still didnt tell me why so angry with my post before last one. Would like to know truth. You have right to your opinion, but it does not make me angry. As I say truth does interest me and for thousand time. Truth that shows that Serbs were not mass muders. You say that is my truth, then you dont agree with me? I oppose Genocide charge, I do not believe in Greater Serbia theori. You say you were not equating my friend with Milosevic. You must have worse English than me because that is exactly what you did. You made comparison. Why? How are they same? But you did lie Mr Bora, now I see it. You said that I accused opponants of ICTY helped to murder Djindjic. Where? Mr Bora you are are telling lies and you should be careful telling lies here because people will see it and treat you this way. Maybe it was honest mistake but it still show your anger. Again why so angry with me? You owe me answer.

  David yes I do have pity for you. You dont believe my words but you have agenda your own. Only thing is you are not decent enough to talk to me on issues unlike Mr Bora who is (even if he like you put word in my mouth)

  What is your name by the way or do you think you should have advantage over rest of us?

  Jari to try to address more serious point about independence movement. Of course movement came first but movement like Croat diaspora (foreign support or independence movement?)made it all possible.

  Kathryn you are right about those governments supporting US one by one. This Iraq war is so bad. Just to watch war brings all memories. Everyone around is talking how it makes them sick. So much confusion, as somebody who watches I dont know what to feel. On one side want Americans to get killed so that they will all decide to go home but life is not like this. So what, we end up to hope that US takes over Iraq with little casualtys for Iraqis. But It gives signal that US can go anywhere in world. Next Iran? Yes its ok. Then Korea. More military base here and there. But when will US stop? Will it only be when hundreds of bodybags go home or Democratic government in how many years? Look Clinton did same in Yugoslavia. What is answer? Worse that US has no plan. Turkey moving into North Iraq. What a party, Iranians, Iraqs Americans, British, Turkish, Kurdish, Australians. Only anglo saxon on same side the other side who knows? God forgive us we didnt learn anything since second world war.

  Andy I am waiting with interest to see Milosevic explanation of Srebrenica. I think we both agree he knows something.
  
  Arandjel P V
  Srbija

• Sunday March 23, 2003 at 11:18 am
  I have complimented Jari on his intelligence. I do notice that as time goes by he is becoming very hostile. Maybe because some on the forum are doing the same to him.

  Jari said the following about Vera:

  “Vera is then paraded as a good Serb. However, I have always found Vera an exceptional individual, in many ways. At least her memory is exceptional, when she can remember so clearly a testimony by a KLA fighter from last June.”

  Sarcasm about Vera?

  Apparently Jari has never suffered in his lifetime. I know the hurt my Mother suffered who was born in the USA when the Serbs were dehumanized by the media and the governments of the West. I know the hurt that all Serbs suffered when the Serbs were bombed and called a“pariah state.” Vera lived it in Serbia, what do you think she felt? Would she have taken notes when this KLA fighter testified? I am quite sure she did because when a knife is stuck in your chest, it encourages you to remember by one means or another. It takes what seems like forever to get the knife out.

  To the others on the forum, I ask if any of you watch Cspan and have noticed the callers who call in against Muslims in general. Many are angry with the entire Muslim world population.

  Following is from Anti War, Nebojsa Malic

  “In November 2001, Washington Post columnist Richard Cohen proposed to the Bush regime to appease Muslims worldwide - irritated by the "war on terrorism" - by going after Serb leaders accused of genocide against the Bosnian Muslims. Someone must have taken his advice, because efforts to "bag" the military and political leaders of Bosnian Serbs always spike during a major crisis in US-Islamic relations...”

  For the entire article see Anti War.

  Look for more Serb dehumanizing.

  
  
  Kathryn Love
  SJC
  USA

• Sunday March 23, 2003 at 11:24 am
  Arandjel:

  I saw one American woman watching the bombing of Iraq and she was crying.

  We are not seeing the worse part of it.

  I wonder if they will find the weapons of mass destruction? It has become from a War of “he tried to kill my Father” to “responsible for 9/11” to “weaons of mass destruction” and now we are only there to liberate the long suffering people of Iraq.

  
  
  Kathryn Love
  SJC
  USA

• Sunday March 23, 2003 at 11:33 am
  Jari:

  In the United States where the decisions seem to be made and the money is they say the UN is finished. The word is they will become only a humanitarian organization. Serbs should have held on a little longer. They gave up Milosevic for a debunk organization? Remember nothing is forever, all things change.

  Our news media can be independent if it wants but they are always a cheering section for the government. Our news media loves war. If they die in Iraq well at least they are doing what they love.

  
  
  Kathryn Love
  SJC
  USA

• Sunday March 23, 2003 at 11:43 am
  Milan Masic Serbian people always come together in times of sorrow and pay respect to even their enemies. A common bond or common goals, however thin the thread, even Djindjic, is a call to unity. You praise him for promoting the “Western Style” seems to insinuate some sort of backwardness in Yugoslavia. If my memory serves me right the “Western Style” of dress and music was there long time before the arrival of Djindjic. On the other hand if you are talking about democracy than that is a delusion. Most governments in the West are dictatorships of the minority. Oh yes we do vote every four or five years and we get more of the same. In America, Bush was elected by 27% of the people and most claim he stole the elections by manipulating the Florida count. In Canada we are not much better. About 75 % of the people voted and the party in power took 37% of the vote. At least in Yugoslavia you have to get over 50% in order to win??? The politics in the West are incestuous affairs. Just go to the web pages that Anna P provided. If this is what you praise Djindjic for than you might as well praise Al Capone. Djindjic was like a cop entrusted to follow the law but every step of the way he broke it. I call this a bad cop.

  Milan I am not sure what this means “Mr Trkla could ask himself who was supposed to be Brankovic when Milos, founder of Serbian state, sent Karadjordje's head to Istambult”. You seem to insinuate that Djindjic is the founder of Serbian democracy and you state that Milos Obrenovic was the founder of the independent Serbian state. Nether is true. Enough said about Djindjic but it was a pig farmer Karadjordje “the black George” who was the founder of the Serb state. It was Milos the quisling, dressed in a fez with a crescent above his door, who sent Karadjordje’s head to Constantinople. REMIND ME AGAIN WHO SENT MILOSEVIC TO THE HAGUE. I cant get this yelling out of my system even after 50 years of living in Canada..

  Milan you write “Serbs in Diaspora don't know how intelligent and charming Djindjic was.” In the West we call this “Smoke and mirrors” also I personally don’t judge a ‘BOOK BY THE COVER’ and in the same way I judge politicians by their actions not by the way they dress and what they say.

  Kathryn Love writes “Walter, and Nico, sorry but this is my country and if that offends you, so be it.”. I am not offended at all. This action against Iraq and Canada’s action against Yugoslavia are no more nor aby less than the actions of the Nazis in WWII. The German officers in WWII said (my German is not that great) ‘befielt is befielt’ orders are orders and most of the people went along with this. In Kragujevac, where some (1300??) high school students were shot in retaliation for a partisan ambush. Two German soldiers were also shot because they did not follow orders nor did they show their morality by “going to church” they showed it by their deeds and I salute them.

  Kathryn nationalism was the greatest force for evil in the last century it needs to stay there in the last century. Love of country should not be associated with the fear to criticize it should be the opposite since we criticize because we love our country.
  
  Walter Trkla
  Kamloops BC
  Canada

• Sunday March 23, 2003 at 11:50 am
  Maybe I should inform this Forum about the technicalities of mass execution. Some I have witnessed as a young boy, some I have read about.

  Let me begin with Kragujevac.

  Killing is done by a heavy machine gun on a stand manned by two or three soldiers. The victims are lined up in a row. The group is about a hundred. ( Methodical Germans did always make an accurate count.) Why a hundred? Because you can not swing left and right the machine gun at that distance, about 50 yard so much. Second, the victims fall after being hit and soldiers have to make sure that each hit is lethal. Obviously you can not have as many soldiers executioners as there are victims. Even then the aim has to be very precise, otherwise you end up with too many wounded; so much more a job for an officer who finishes off those still moving.

  Total number of killed was 8000. And it lasted three days. Meanwhile somebody had to guard the prisoners who knew that they will be executed and tried to escape.

  Second incident is a mass killing near Neretva river by Ustashe of a trainload of women, children and old men. The Railroad cars stopped near the steep canyon. The victims were clobbered by sticks and axes ( to save ammunition?) and showed down the ravine. The place is about 15 km from Medjugorje. After the war the bones of the victims were covered with concrete and the shore of Neretva was forgotten. Again the killing lasted the whole day; about 800 to 1000 victims.

  Why am I giving you these gruesome details? Because everybody nowadays talks of the massacres not realizing that it is a difficult job. A bomb can kill a hundred, atomic bomb hundreds of thousands, but for rifles or machineguns it is a heavy duty task.

  I think one has to take these circumstances into account when making diagnosis about mass murders and such
  
  D Jovanovic
  USA

• Sunday March 23, 2003 at 1:06 pm
  Kathryn,

  You said to me, //You imagine that I am a red neck living in a small town in California who never saw the outside world and maybe just fell off the turnip truck?" No, I do not. That couldn't be further from truth. But have you lived abroad for any length of time or just been a tourist here and there? There is a big difference. The roomate you sited whom you effectively wanted to tell to "love it or leave it" had come here after spending a larger part of her life somewhere else, and she had another basis/standard to go by -- she had known something else. Why should that be discounted? Other so-called critics of the U.S. here have also evidently immigrated either into the U.S. or Canada and, again, have a deferent meter than someone who was born and bred here. I lived and worked abroad for half my adult life, and I am also of an age where I have had plenty of life experience. I chose to return to this country 12 years ago, but whereas one might think it would be great to "come home," having one's eyes opened can make things harder to take sometimes, not easier. I would be much more content had I less to compare this country to.

  Why do you think it necessary to keep bringing up how much you like the U.S.? What prompts this so regularly? Did it ever cross your mind that you might initate responses to that or is this not a discussion forum? And what have I said that prompts you to categorize me as hating the U.S.? I think it is my responsibility, as well as my right, to criticize what I see as wrong. Would you prefer it if people like me always weighed something good against anything bad? Would you, say, be happier if any time I said, e.g., the Democratic Party is as bad as the Republicans (I challenge anyone to refute it), but on the other hand we have nice parks? How about, e.g., we invade other countries and/or bomb them to hell when they've done nothing to us, but, hey, don't we have a great road system?

  I also criticize Serbia and Britain, and other countries I love or am fond of. I think it's very odd how much offense you take at anything said, quite anything, and then have the nerve to call it //spouting hate for this country//. I really respect your immigrant Serbian parents from what you have told us about them -- very much. They are not unlike mine, although I don't know if, like mine, they were political refugees. The Tito regime refused to give my father a passport, so we got out of Yugoslavia by walking at night over the mountains in Slovenia and into Austria when I was a very little girl and my brother a young baby. Then we spent years in an immigration camp in Austria living in one room and cooking on a hotplate on the floor before finally coming to this country where, yes, thank god there is some freedom, so does that mean I should make flag designs on 4th of July cakes and shut up the rest of the time? Allow me to point out, Kathryn, that this ain't your father's U.S.A. (Would that it were... )

  I agree with Walter about nationalism and his remark, //Love of country should not be associated with the fear to criticize it should be the opposite since we criticize because we love our country.//, is right on the mark.

  I am anti-globalization and I want national borders respected. That is a very different thing from nationalism. Flag wavers are suspect in my mind, be they American, French or Serbian. I'll make an exception for Serbs during the bombing or the Iraqis while under this brutal attack, because that is an appropriate time to wave your flag - in defiance.

  Just as you have your right to speak your piece here, so do I, my dear.
  
  Anna Pullinger
  California

• Sunday March 23, 2003 at 1:14 pm
  Kathryn, in case you misinterpret my comment about "not your father's U.S.A." let me clarify that I am saying it is not the U.S.A. to which your father immigrated, the country to which he wanted your first allegiance to be when he told you that you are an American first. It's not the same country, maybe it never was except on the surface, but in those days one was able to believe it was different than now.
  
  Anna P
  California

• Sunday March 23, 2003 at 1:30 pm
  Kathryn I dont know about Jari, maybe he did suffer, we all have sometime, but if you are talking about abuse maybe you understand that my level of anger goes up a little when I have lecture from thousand miles away (from poster who dont have courage to put real or full name) that because my opinion different it means I am programmed by wrong media or lies that Im accused by Mr Peric and Tarzanovic of saying that posters here are responsible for murder of Djindjic. Maybe I have different view from Vera but maybe you can understand how that makes me feel.

  Article written by Malic you talk of was reading yesterday. Problem I have with Malic is his ancient hatred idea. This is argument of right. Argument follows that major world religions can not live with each other. There many cities in world where they live together well. West was mainly to blame for what happened in Bosnia but rest of blame does not lie with Bosnian people but with the leaders (he does say this as well which is true). Way it seem to me is that religious and political leaders are much more to blame than so called darkness in soul of people in Bosnia (or Yugoslavia). It is stange to me that Malic on one side informs us in good way but tells us at same time there is too much hate in Bosnian soul (his soul also). If he is talking about himself how can we believe what he writes?

  What is CSPAN by way? Kable TV? We got a week ago Kable with CNN. The reporting is not really fair. Some one called Aaron Brown particularly support US position. Not good reporting.

  Walter as I say already it was Djindjic who took responsibility for sending Milosevic to Hague but the document sending him was singed by all DOS parties including Kostunica, Batic and Ilic, I include all these 3 because they are the centre right / right 'democrat, patriot' partys. Only parties against were Arkans, SPS, JUL and SRS. They were against course for their own reasons. Djindjic was responsible for sure but the others were as well. Only one was neutral if can remember was Draskovic who didnt know if to support or not.
  
  Arandjel P V
  Srbija

• Sunday March 23, 2003 at 1:31 pm
  Anna P.,

  The most recent scribblings here from our resident street brawler of indicative of a dangerous personality, more inclined to maliciously misrepresent and distort the substance of others posts rather than address them in a respectful and honest manner, and this coupled with the hostile invective and outright slander, remind one of the behaviour of some sort of rural Communist Party appartchik during the time of the Cultural Revolution rather than any "defense lawyer". Apparently that previously admitted "anger" (so frequently observed in his postings) and allegedly towards "the poor professionalism of the prosecution", extends to any and all that so much as address any of his absurd trial balloons - all of which contain hazardous waste but without any of the appropriate labeling, and as required by those EU standards which he and his friend, Helena Ranta, hold so dear.

  And most recently, the resident "neutral" has made repeated demands that those critical of the obviously unethical and propagandistic role played by forensic dentist Helena Ranta, as part of the effort to extrapolate a much desired "smoking gun" by way of the "massacre" (or is that "genocide") in "Racak", must accompany their remarks with a denunciation of the role played by their own "NATO" country! This was thought a sick joke when first observed, but now it's apparent as the actual position of the "neutral", and again indicative of this rural Trotskyite mentality.

  Again thanks to the Greeks and others here who have, while no doubt offended by having hazardous waste thrown at them, for understanding that the response would only come in more of the same.
  
  Nico Tarzanovic
  CAN

• Sunday March 23, 2003 at 1:33 pm
  Mr. Jovanovic,

  I agree with you. Killing /committing massacre does take time. Remember Kraljevo too. October 14, 1941, Kragujevac 21, 1941, and then Gornji Milanovac, Cacak, Terazije. And we can go on. I find it fascinating what is considered massacre. You are right, one life is too much, but I can not understand how and why can Jewish people, congress and Israel allow CNN to redefine what is Genocide and Holocaust? Killing does take time, destroying evidence also takes time. Anybody that saw movie "Conspiracy"? It explains "nicely" why they created concentration camps to "solve" "Problem of Jews". Because it was expedient and because emotionally effects less solders committing a crime. You can NOT order a normal solder to kill a child regardless how brainwashed he is. You can not hide Genocide. Somebody always talks. I waited patiently for the insiders to talk, but I got nothing. Even crimes that have been committed trough Kosovo and Croatia seems nothing else bud sporadic, mafias type killings. I still have to hear what happened in Bosnia. This is the reason why I was for idea that Milosevic stands in front of court. I can not hear "allegations" any more.
  
  Dakic Ana
  Serbia

• Sunday March 23, 2003 at 1:52 pm
  Arandjel, I said what I said because I think so. There are no new issues in your latest post that I haven't addressed. I accept you are right the problem is that my English is worse than yours is. I am well aware that this is public forum and that others will judge everything that I say. Everybody is quite welcomed to do so.
  
  Pera Bora
  Ottawa
  Canada

• Sunday March 23, 2003 at 2:08 pm
  

  The following is the exact copy on what Aranjel said when he joined the discusion.

  Washington, United States

  Wednesday March 12, 2003 at 9:52 am

  Bet all you Milosevic supporters are delighted he's dead.I feel sorry for all of you. Its Milosevic's politics that let this happen. Arandjel Pasic Srbija
  
  Pera Bora
  Ottawa
  Canada

• Sunday March 23, 2003 at 2:12 pm
  Nico,

  I came late into these discussions and am not familiar with what preceded recent antagonistic postings from Jari and you or what his position was previously.

  I have an idea (right or wrong, I don't know) that he is a young student and is having a lot of fun exploring and playing with language, but relies almost exclusively on reading material, and not much life experience.
  
  Anna P
  California

• Sunday March 23, 2003 at 2:35 pm
  Yes and I made clear how I felt at the time. If Mr Bora you had bothered to read Walters post at time you might understand it in intelectual contekst since you obviously dont understand how somebody can feel when their Prime Minister / leader has been assasinated/. Fact that some make so many reference to this instead of making debate only shows lack of argument. No? Now lets go to your claim of what I said:

  '..that opponents of the ICTY are supporters of Mr. Milosevic and somehow helped murder of Mr. Djindjic.' So you stand by the lie that I claim that opponents of ICTY helped murder Mr Djidjic. You should be proud! Yours and mine English may not be perfect but I never accused anybody here of helping murder Djindjic. Either you take back what you said or people will know you have no shame and have been caught making lies. That stands for Tarzanovic who said the same thing. Pathetic little pieces adding to something somebody said in time of emotion. And I bet this was exactly kind of thing you complain about when reporting about Serb position was unfair during war. Pity that you are not above to do this yourself.

  I ask again for all interested in real discussion respectfuly to move on to subject people here are interested in instead of stupid point score excercise.
  
  Arandjel P V
  Srbija

• Sunday March 23, 2003 at 2:45 pm
  D. Jovanovic,

  Thank you for your post.

  What more to say about the fact that entire genocides were ignored by the Nurenberg process, by the same Western powers which installed a Communist regime in Yugoslavia?

  And while Germany committed actions of genocide in the Balkans during two World Wars, she was only held culpable for only the most minute number of them. The prosecution of one Luftwaffe senior commander at Nurenberg was by no means a sincere attempt to address anything so base as justice for the victims in the Balkans. The prevention of which counted for one of the greatest motives on the part of Western powers' in supporting the Yugoslav "Communists", as well as the military dictatorship in Greece. As in the aftermath of the First World War, the Western Powers, and as confirmed by the specatacle of Nurenberg, were never so much interested in justice as dividing the spoils of the allegedly vanquished Reich between them.

  It's surprising that one does not run across more comment here on how the barbaric acts of genocide committed in WWI and WWII reflects on the current conduct of Germany in the Balkan aggression in concert with the Western powers which were aligned against her in two major wars. For we have seen in the past decade Germany not only involved in the organization and execution of this aggression, but also conducting the arrest and even the prosecution of SFRJ citizens, by German courts, for "crimes" committed on their native soil, and while recognizing their status to be little more than that of common foot soldiers or prison guards. All of these actions for which Germany has only won political praise in the propaganda and official statements of the previously hostile Western powers. And all of this too, like so much of the various and myriad other actions perpetrated by the aggressive powers, with Germany among them, demands the immediate revision of so much of the history of so much of the 20th century, including the Nurenberg process, where only the senior leadership of the German military was tried.

  As for the points specifically addressed by your post above, it should be added that a long experience of conversations with former members of the Wehrmacht or Luftwaffe in the Balkans has only revealed one thing: an unabashed willingness to lie and deceive the interviewer. Far from living up to the image of the "honest German", the individuals encountered only convinced that their devotion to the Reich and their Fuhrer was something which they would take with them to their grave. And yet how lying about their role in WWII was doing any more than a disservice to either was not so clear, and in any case, irrelevant, especially in their view.

  And so much of this lying was witnessed many decades after the Nurenberg process as well as the subsequent political rehabilitation of Germany; which made it clear that the actions of these individuals, most of low rank, were never to be subjected to any form of criminal prosecution, never mind the sort of political persecution, and in a foreign state, which the aforementioned citizens of the former SFRJ have been subjected to, and of course which continues to this day.
  
  Nico T
  C

• Sunday March 23, 2003 at 2:51 pm
  Nico T and D Jovanovic,

  Excellent posts from both of you. We need more educational information such as that by persons who know what they are talking about.
  
  Anna P
  CA

• Sunday March 23, 2003 at 3:12 pm
  Anna P.,

  Thanks for your response, and yes, the same might be said of this curious Djindjic supporter who came to this board only to accuse all posters of playing a role in the assassination, only to conduct a campaign of slander and character assassination in post after post.

  Walter, thank you for your post too. I understand that you have some personal contact with representatives of NGOs in the Balkans, and was wondering what they have to say about the environmental conditions in the Balkans. I was wondering not only about the consequences of the criminal use of DU by the American military, but also the dumping of nuclear and other toxic waste in those liberated "Serbfrei" areas of the former Yugoslavia. I was wondering if you know anyone and what they had to say? Do they know of the status, for example, of those barrels of nuclear waste from Slovenia which the depreaved and criminal Sarajevo authorities imported in 1991, dumping them in the parking lot of an old "Famos" warehouse? Are they still there? I just thought of it after witnessing hazardous waste here, and unlabelled in accordance with the "highest" EU standards.

  Pera Bora,

  The US military just accused Iraq of violating the Geneva Convention for showing pictures of captured American p.o.w's. It marks the first time CNN has allowed mention of the Geneva Convention since the war started.
  
  Nico T
  CAN

• Sunday March 23, 2003 at 3:29 pm
  ..accuse all posters of playing a role in the assassination

  Tarzanovic or whatever your real name is you cant read can you?

  But Im glad you repeated your lie since it will focus the minds of those on the thread as to who is honest and who isnt. Ten out of ten!

  By the way I know what you are trying to do but Im not going anywhere. Sorry to disapoint!
  
  Arandjel P V
  Srbija

• Sunday March 23, 2003 at 5:15 pm
  D. Jovanovic,

  As for your specific mention of the outright actions of genocides in the vicinity of Hercegovina, these were some of the most barbaric and anti-human actions seen in recorded history - anywhere. Columns of thousands of women and children were pushed off the cliffs around Medjugorje, with Catholic priests among the most rabid participants in these horrifying murders. How incredible, and yet so typical at the same time, that the Catholic world sees Medjugorje as a holy sight, an object of pilgrimage and baffling superstition, and from which the local clergy (free from the "oppression" of state taxation) milk millions annually. Rather than devote themselves to the study of scripture, the Medjugorje priests pursue a life of paganistic luxury, often engaging in the same rampant pedophilia and other acts of sodomy which so characterize the behaviour of their counterparts in so many other places elsewhere.

  As for the specific evidence, in the form of mass graves of corpses around Medjugorje and the Neretva Valley, and as you mentioned at times covered in cement, let's also not forget the Croat and Muslim nationalist leadership in Bosnia-Hercegovina in 1991-92 not only actively tried to block the discovery and reburial of the victims, but threatened civil war in doing so. These tens of thousands upon tens of thousands of corpses, buried in mass graves which are so much greater than anything seen in any of the conflicts of the past decade, therefore had a greater link to the war in the former Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Hercegovina than the vast majority of Western governments, complicit as they were in the aggression against SFRJ, than almost the entire body of "Western academic scholarship" has ever cared to recognize in its massive writings, more suitably categorized as propaganda, on the subject of the Balkan Wars. For as you will recall, local Serbian civilians and their political leaders in Bosnia-Hercegovina demanded in 1991, following the elections of the post-Communist government, the immmediate discovery of those corpses; their forensic investigation, and their subsequent burial in proper and individual graves, and in the manner wished by their survivors. And this, as they noted, was not something denied them not just by the blackshirt murderers, and the genocidal butchers, but for more than 45 years by the US and British sponsored "Communists", which counted many former Ustashe; SS Handzar and Albanian criminals in their ranks. And which was pointed out time and again, including by none other than the Croatian Archbishop and war criminal Alojzije (Aloysius) Stepinac during his "trial", and who was only a few years ago, in 1998, beatified by that foremost champion of Croatian "independence", Pope John Paul, during a visit to Croatia.
  
  Nico T
  CAN

• Sunday March 23, 2003 at 5:16 pm
  Arandjel

  You're quite correct, I do have an agenda. It's summarised in my response to D Jovanovic several comments prior to this one. I have told you, if you want to get even with Milosevic, drag him out of the ICTY and deal with him in Yugoslavia. In the meantime, by all means, make your points but don't come on here insulting people and spreading swill about your emotional state and how everyone needs to be sympathetic to you because you've lost your prime minister. I couldn't care less about Djindjic, or Milosevic for that matter, but if you read my post to D Jovanovic you might just get a proper inkling of my agenda. Get a hold of yourself and stop whingeing how we're all apologists for Milosevic. By the way, my name is David Dury if it makes any difference to you.

  Jari

  Do I still beat my wife? Of course. It is an old tradition which I devoutly follow, especially when I'm drunk. LOL

  Kathryn

  Jari just seems to get that way when someone questions some of his premises and the validity of some of his wilder extrapolations. LOL . Still, apart from his comical ramblings about Nico, he's good value and raises some interesting points. I'm quite happy to sift the good from the bad provided he doesn't mention my wife again LOL.
  
  David
  Australia

• Sunday March 23, 2003 at 6:38 pm
  

  US Protests Russian Equipment Sales To Iraq

  
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Conn., USA

• Sunday March 23, 2003 at 9:13 pm
  What A Shame!

  - According to the "strategery" of our CiC IRAQIS were supposed to be disarmed, sloughtered at will for entertainment of the populus of democracies, surrendering en masse but in orderly maner....- Instead THEY are breaking all the "rules of engagement", Geneva convention..... even using weapons of mass production! - Somebody Might get KILLED!

  - SUPPORT OUR TROOP ! that by mistake got into the harms way......
  
  vytas abrutis
  phila,PA
  USA

• Sunday March 23, 2003 at 10:00 pm
  Nico, it is funny the USA has shown the POW of Iraq on the CNN and bragged about the whole division being surrendered. Now when Iraqi's do the same they are calling upon the Geneva Convention. Thanks to the guts of the Iraqis the USA is learning a hard lesson there. It is good for all of them and us as well.
  
  Pera Bora
  Ottawa
  Cabada

• Sunday March 23, 2003 at 10:05 pm
  One last word on Djindjic I promise. Srdja Trifkovic, one of the most articulate and knowledgeable persons that I have had a pleasure to listen to for the past ten years speaks out on Djindjic. Thanks to my friend Mr. Jovanovic (Canada) for this link it is well worth reading http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/News/Trifkovic/NewsST032203.html
  
  Walter Trkla
  Kamloops BC
  Canada

• Sunday March 23, 2003 at 10:27 pm
  Stop crying Arandjel-ina. People cried when Josef Sralin died. People cried when Tito died. When a country or people believes that they depend just on one leader I feel really sorry form them. I was there when Tito died. It was doom and gloom all over the peace. Tomorrow was jus another day. To kill others in grief is unjustifiable. Do not hide behind Walter's post. He is not your Mom. Stand for your self-man. As David is saying, if you want Mr. Milosevic in prison or dead or free drag him home and prosecute him. As I understand you are against Imperialism. The ICTY is the worst tool of theirs. Do not relay on them to solve your problems, and do not blame your problems on the posters on this forum. Take your destiny in your hands get them dirty.
  
  Pera Bora
  Ottawa
  Canada

• Sunday March 23, 2003 at 11:38 pm
  DJINDJIC SENT MILOSEVIC TO THE HAGUE.We all saw how tensed he was those days and later he had to use one of his little lies: it was piece of cake. When small and exausted country is put under enormous pressure to extradite its ex-president contra legem and civilized world is happy about it ,which side deserves to be ashamed?

  Mr Trkla I suggest to judge politicians by their intentions too.It wouldn't be fair to judge someone's character with "criminal puppet" and to forget that Djindjic was exceptional individual with great positive and constructive energy.Can you imagine a government with Sloba,Seselj,Djindjic and Kostunica? We need a state where we can yell all together.

  It wasn't insinuation but proposal for mental exercise: in which extent history repeats itself in this case? Beside that ,can you remember what Karadjordje said when Serbs told him to be a leader?

  Western campaigns and polls don't work in Serbia. People can't vote for politician on the bicycle smiling in the camera.

  Vuk Karadzic was dressing fez too.
  
  milan masic
  serbia

• Sunday March 23, 2003 at 11:42 pm
  Arandjele PV ,don't worry for my reputation and if it is possible don't confuse this already naive and confused company with your amateurism.It makes me nervous. There were some more interesting details in hidden camera this Christmass.

  Pengui.I notices that you and Jagoska have secret plans, but it would be better for you to find someone else because Tony Blair definitely changed my sexual orientation.
  
  milan masic
  serbia

• Monday March 24, 2003 at 12:40 am
  There are no sessions at the Milosevic 'trial' again for few days, due to his poor health; so TV B92 transmitted a bit of the Stakic case, as it happened also in January. Why am I writing about other cases? Because they are all interconnected and are ultimately included in the Milosevic indictment (remember, he is accused of practically everything that happened in the whole area). And by being privileged only from time to time to take a peek into those other cases, one can see all the segments of the Milosevic indictment discussed in detail, with the same sinister tactics applied by the Prosecution to muddle rather than clarify the issues. This, of course, goes for all the Serb indictees; for them the Prosecution has reserved that all-encompassing canvas of the 'joint criminal enterprise', a giant fig-leaf covering the nude truth that their cases lack substance. By following the Milosevic case one is able to see how all those other 'smaller' cases, poorly investigated, full of suppositions and vagueness of the type 'the Chamber is satisfied' are being used later on to substantiate the Milosevic case, serving as the precedents.

  I'm truly sorry that our TV does not transmit the sessions of the trials of all those Croats, Muslims and Albanians that have been indicted so far. They are all at the much lower level of the chain of command in their respective military forces, there are virtually no political leaders of these parties in the conflict indicted and there's no 'joint criminal enterprise' involved, although one might argue these parties joined criminally in an enterprise to dismantle ex-YU, not only among themselves (e.g. the training of the Albanians in 1991 in CRO, a fact on the record) but also with some foreign powers (ditto). But, I'm absolutely positive that the ICTY is unable to provide fair trials for these people either. I base this assessment on what I've managed to read about the Blaskic case from the Croatian sources: being probably one of the most professional and honest military man there, he was sacrificed by Tudjman, who had been forced by the US to help establish the image of the ICTY impartiality. In order to make General Blaskic guilty and to avoid their own responsibility, the Croatian Govt. withheld all the exonerating documents and Blaskic got 45 years. Small sacrifice for letting the Croatian top leaders off the hook and being able to watch practically complete Serbian political leadership in the dock. This is the type of deals the ICTY makes, this is how they make their cases and how they decide who is to be indicted. Is anybody getting a fair trial there? Obviously, no.

  Few days after I saw that piece of the Stakic case (on 22 Jan. 2003) I posted a short description of the testimony of one Milos Jankovic, a witness to the Defence there. There was a very important telegram mentioned, the one actually authorizing and ordering war against the JNA by the authorities of Bosnia & Herzegovina. I promised to watch for the transcript to appear, to verify that telegram and to have it verbatim. Watching the Stakic case again few days ago reminded me to check the transcripts; and the date of 20 Jan. was there, after two full months. So, check the http://www.un.org/icty/ind-e.htm ; Prijedor (Kovacevic-Drljaca-Stakic) ; Transcripts ; 20 January 2003. The events surrounding the telegram are on pages 10667-93, the telegram itself on pages 10688-90.

  Let's try to clear the issues a bit, for a change: the Serbs in B&H, of which Stakic was one local official, the Mayor of Prijedor, only reacted to the belligerent Muslim authorities which usurped the power in the Republic and started the war. This telegram that the stupid Prosecution included in its own documents (again!) is a proof of that. Here's the complete quotation from the transcript.

  "All security services centres, all public security stations, and the Sarajevo SUP must take all necessary measures and actions within their purview to secure implementation of the order by the Commander of the Territorial Defence staff of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina number 02/145-1, dated the 29th of April, 1992. We hereby forward to you the original text. Order on the implementation of the Order by the Presidency of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina number 02-11-327/92. Pursuant to the decision of the Presidency of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina number 02-11-327/92, dated 27th of April, 1992, on the withdrawal of JNA units from the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina territory, and due to a violation of this decision by the Presidency and the incipient looting and plundering of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina by the former JNA, I hereby order:

  1. Carry out complete and massive blocking of all roads throughout the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina where the units of the former JNA are beginning to evacuate technical equipment and material in direct coordination with the MUP.

  2. Block the general region and the military facilities in the general region from which technical equipment and material is being evacuated. The blockade is to be set up with different kinds of formational and natural obstacles, and these should be secured for the units of Territorial Defence of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina and the MUP.

  3. Unannounced columns of units of the former JNA and those unescorted by the MUP must not be allowed to leave their barracks or to travel in the territory of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

  4. Speed up planning and start combat operations throughout the territory of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina . These are to be coordinated with the Territorial Defence staff of the region, district, and the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina. When planning combat operations, plan also comprehensive measures to protect the population and the property and goods owned by citizens of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

  Signed by the Minister for the Interior, Alija Delimustafic."

  The telegram was admitted into evidence under the number D6 (original) and D6B-1 (copy retrieved from the encrypted tape). Another telegram with the identical text, only this time sent by the Ministry of Defence, was sent through the Territorial Defence staff to all its units, signed by the Colonel Hasan Efendic, on that same date; this document was also admitted into evidence as D46B. So, on 29 April 1992 the Presidency of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina issued written order to start the war ('Order on the implementation of the Order by the Presidency of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina').

  And this is what I wrote in my previous post, on 22 Jan. 2003, after I watched Milos Jankovic's testimony. There's no need to change a word of that, so let this be an explanation and a comment to this telegram quoted above.

  [quote my previous post] This Stakic trial, as well as that of General Galic, is already in its defence stage and I managed to see only a small part of the testimony of one Jankovic, who is an engineer of electronics and telecommunications, working for the Prijedor Police Communications Dept. Prijedor is now within the Serbian entity of Bosnia & Herzegovina, and was taken over by the Serbs in 1992 without one single bullet fired.

  This engineer testified extremely to the point and without any frills, as befits his profession. I caught a particularly interesting part of his telling: what lead to that take-over. Again, the Defence used all the documents submitted by the Prosecution and the engineer precisely corrected each and every imprecision and falsity, named all names, organizational units and their connections, as it was when he analysed the organizational structure of the whole police force in B&H, as designed by the Prosecution.

  His story was the following: On 29 April 1992 he came back to the Prijedor Police Station by car with one of his technicians from a repair job on one of their transmitters. There was an urgent meeting organized in their large hall for all the staff, uniformed and non. Those presiding the meeting were the local police top brass, municipality administration officials and politicians, only 1 or 2 Serbs among 8 Muslims. The agenda was the establishing of Prijedor Police Station as a Public Security Centre, and thus to remove it organizationally from the subordination to the Banja Luka Public Security Centre. For those who wander the importance of this, Banja Luka is predominantly Serb municipality. This necessity of independence of Prijedor from Banja Luka and its direct connection to Sarajevo Police instead was explained by better and more rapid salaries distribution and even the increase in salaries for some, by transforming a simple police station into a Centre.

  Local Chief of Police (a Muslim) spoke a lot, others helped him with more wool-gathering, but somehow the rank and file wasn't convinced. They were cops, yes, but they lived among people, knew and understood something big and ugly is being prepared. Yet, as always with simple working class, when you make them interested by talking salaries, you're half way there to convince them of anything.

  Then, the policeman guarding the entrance of the building came to tell our engineer/witness that his technician needs him urgently upstairs (these two men were the only ones on duty and not at this meeting and there was no phone in the hall). The technician at the encrypting machine informed his chief engineer that an urgent telegram has arrived, sent by the Minister of the Interior Affairs of B&H and is to be retransmitted to all other police stations, and the technician was unsure of the correct procedure. The engineer read the telegram and was shocked: it was an order to begin war against the JNA! The Minister quoted a 4-point Resolution of the Presidency of B&H and ordered its implementation. This same Resolution was also sent to the Territorial defence (TO) of B&H, as could be read in the heading of the telegram. The Police is to block the JNA barracks within its territory of authority, to block also all the possible roads of retreat and to launch combat activities, all in co-ordination with the TO.

  The engineer gave technical instructions to his assistant how to retransmit the message, and since the heading read VERY URGENT - to be handed over to the Chief of Police, he took the print of the telegram together with the register of messages and took it to the hall. There he gave all that to the nearest one of his technicians, whose duty was to list each item received and hand it over to the recipient against his signature. The man did so, and the Chief signed the receipt and read the telegram for himself, at the very presiding table. Meanwhile, the engineer asked to speak and bluntly said that the salaries are not the issue here, but this telegram ordering war, which just got into Chief's hands. The cops started yelling they want the telegram to be read aloud and finally it was done by one of the assistants. All hell broke loose! Even the municipal official, who was a Muslim, refused to have anything to do with this and left. After voicing their outrage, the policemen also left the building, disobeying all orders.

  Nothing happened for the next few days, and then all the municipal officials, including Chief of Police, were quietly replaced by the Serbs, without a single bullet fired. The new Chief ordered our engineer to find the telegram; they managed to salvage the encrypted tape, from which a copy could be made, with letters leaning to the right side (the original was also retrieved later on, and submitted among the Prosecution documents - again, the Prosecution even in this case does a poor job in checking its own papers!).

  Ergo, the Muslim Presidency of B&H ordered war, even some local Muslims were outraged by that, and the local Serbs took over in Prijedor just to prevent war. And Milomir Stakic, a young local doctor with a goatee, very urbane-looking for such a small place, accepted to be a Mayor. Now he's accused for all the happenings during the civil war which ensued when Prijedor was attacked. [unquote my previous post]

  To start the war in the first place, that's the ultimate warcrime.

  P.S.: Andy, there seems to be a glitch with your search engine for the transcripts: when you type more than 1 word, you get some references where none of those words appear.
  
  Vera Martinovic
  Belgrade
  Yugoslavia

• Monday March 24, 2003 at 2:17 am
  David: I think Jari is rather comical.I believe he serves his purpose on this forum. The devil‘s advocate.

  Walter:

  You accuse me of not criticizing the United States? Read my posts! I do not like the war against Iraq, or against Serbia. If you want me to rant and rave against the U.S. I am not going to do that.

  Anna I have to thank you because you gave me the incentive to remember my past, all the good things that I should appreciate, the teachers, friends, employers, doctors, and family.You know what I concluded? I have had a pretty good life here.

  As for the German girl I roomed with. After spending Christmas at my parents home, she told me her family in Germany would be appalled that she had Christmas in the house of a Yugoslav. Never grateful.She should have taken one of those planes or ships, maybe she did.

  Arandjel: You were tired of war. Tired of sanctions. You are young and if not married you probably thought you would be unable to marry, have a family and a normal life. You saw nothing but black rain in your future.You were tired of it and I do not blame you.

  You probably thought that Djindjic was your chance for a new future. Maybe you placed too much trust in him.

  One day all will change. It always does. You know what will go down in history books and never will be forgotten is the selling of Milosevic to the Hague. It is a big black mark that will not be erased. Djindjic did this not you.

  I do not blame you for wanting a better life. You are young and deserve it. I am worn out just reading about all the troubles and writing letters.....and believe me I can feel for you and Vera and every Serb in the Balkans.

  I do not know much about Serbians but I know that they pick themselves up by the bootstraps and carry on. They come to the US and in no time at all their children are speaking English in classrooms as though they were born here. They work hard and they succeed. Sure they have their drunks and wierdos but everyone does. You are one hard working, good looking, smart thinking, group of people. Youth is precious take care of it, work to help Serbia. As John Kennedy told us, “Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country.”

  I wish you all the best.God Bless.

  
  
  Kathryn Love
  SJC
  USA

• Monday March 24, 2003 at 2:25 am
  Milane I don’t know what Karadjordje said. Did he say who is going to look after my pigs? Or can I take my pigs to Kragujevac? Or did he say SSSS? Or did he start a quarrel among themselves? I think he started a quarrel???? Tell me Milane what did he say; I left Yu when I was ten years old so I have not had that history lesson. “The smallest good deed is better than the grandest good intention” By the way can I come to Sombor so we can YELL TOGHETHER???
  
  Walter Trkla
  Kamloops BC
  Canada

• Monday March 24, 2003 at 2:50 am
  Kathryn Love I am not criticizing you at all. I am saying that “Love of country should not be associated with the fear to criticize (it) (I meant its policies ) should be the opposite since we criticize because we love our country.
  
  Walter Trkla
  Kamloops BC
  Canada

• Monday March 24, 2003 at 3:19 am
  Walter, I must say that when you finally do hit the nail on the head, you are a smasher. Whatever one's position is, you would have to check it from the opposite side. Devil's Advocate is one way to put it. Those who refuse to have fun would probably like to turn this board into a therapy session, which they are certainly in need of (although these don't have to be mutually exclusive, come to think of it).

  David, I promise I won't mention your wife again. The point was that once Srebrenica is discussed, people would like to "shoot the messenger" rather than talk about it. That is the way I took your question about drugs.

  But even here, there is a point. The drug question works on the same premise as the accusations against Morillon: to take the attention away from the real problem. That in turn undermines your reason to criticize the tribunal due to the false accusations against Milosevic. The accusations that are leveled at Milosevic himself could be a reflex to the false accusations that are leveled at Morillon by Milosevic. Everything depends on your perceptions, of course.

  It has been said that Morillon was pro-Muslim, but in fact those safe areas were designed to protect the Muslims, so obviously Morillon may have only been doing his job. Whatever happened afterwards, it should be clear that the fact that the French and Dutch peace-keepers concluded at the time that there was no massacre isn't enough proof that there was a massacre, although that phoney argument would have served the later Yugoslav version very well. Which brings one again to the question: did the NIOD report prove there was a massacre, or was it only working on that premise?

  One short note of Tarzan. Tarzan sure hates Morillon. At least the official Yugo version concerning Morillon's role would relieve him of having to think for himself. Tarzan also seems to assume that any enemy of his is a friend of mine, which is why he sees these conspiracies everywhere. Conversely, everybody who I criticize must be an enemy of mine. Then he assumes that any enemy of mine is a friend of his. That is why he keeps addressing these people without any response from them. I doubt whether Tarzan's method is working. Actually I don't care. I find him as boring as he is hateful and hard-to-follow.

  However, let us see the Srebrenica massacre one more time. Isn't there something fishy? The Bosnia charges were supposed to be the crown of the prosecution's case. Count. We had about six months for Kosovo, about six months for Croatia, which leaves a little more than a month for Bosnia, even if the Bosnia phase were begun right away.

  If my "extrapolations" are correct, then the prosecution must be as happy as Milosevic himself to ignore Srebrenica. And that is the impression I have at the moment. Some people even on this board are quite happy to leave Srebrenica unaddressed.

  And this makes Andy's expectations a bit too optimistic. He trusts the truth about Srebrenica to come to light later in the trial, but in order to believe that, you have to dismiss my "extrapolations".

  One more thing about Djindjic and the transfer. David said that Djindjic handed him to The Hague even if he knew the accusations were false. One thing to remember, again. The poor professionalism of the prosecution, in so far as one is allowed to criticize it, is evident here too. Djindjic handed Milosevic for the Kosovo indictment only, and Milosevic was one of five persons charged on that indictment.

  Things got derailed only after Milosevic was in The Hague. The Bosnia and Croatia charges were suddenly added out of the blue. Once the trial got started, the Croatia charges have proved a real pain in the neck. So, whatever the story behind the murder of Djindjic, there is something preposterous that it took place during the Croatia part of the prosecution's case.
  
  Jari Nousiainen
  Finland

• Monday March 24, 2003 at 4:02 am
  Jari

  My comment about drugs was to do with the apeman rant you posted. Somewhat unnecessary and ill conceived, at least that was my thought. On the basis of your rather qualitative posts since I joined this discussion, it seemed a considerable aberration which in turn prompted my question.

  I do not recall avoiding the Srebrenica question. In fact I think you'll find a number of posts on it, most of which you haven't addressed in your replies. Perhaps you were too enraged with Nico Tarzanovic and erroneously equated him with me?

  In any event, for the umpteenth time, My point was that I do not buy the official version of the Srebrencia massacre, the one that says Mladic and his Serbs massacred 8000 Muslims. It may well be that there was some kind of massacre, and Milosevic alludes that he knows of a massacre in Srebrenica,sponsored by the French and conducted by Serb renegades.

  I merely asked how you extrapolated from that that he was admitting THE official version of the massacre. I can't wait to see Milosevic's line in the defence phase, provided he makes it that far. As for the Srebrenica massacre, the prosecution doesn't need much proof of it as it has allegedly been established in other cases, and May and co will accept previous judgements as proof. Hence Bosnia is not a problem from the prosecution's point of view.

  Milosevic needs to reopen the question in his defence phase or he runs the risk of the court accepting "facts established in previous hearings".

  By the way, nice to see you get off the apeman nonsense and back on track LOL
  
  David
  Australia

• Monday March 24, 2003 at 4:16 am
  David. By THE official version of the massacre I mean the official Yugo version. I think Andy agreed (I may be mistaken) that when Milosevic talked about the massacre and the French, he was referring to the version given by Goran Matic in the Politika. I think you are avoiding this conclusion, because you say there may have been an aggregation of bodies, whereas the Goran Matic version spoke of the 1,200 slaughtered in the Pilica Farm.

  I find the Goran Matic version difficult to accept in its own right too. We know that the Podrinje Identification Project has about 4,000 bodies, of which 2,800 Serbs. That leaves 1,200 Muslim bodies. However, we know from the Krstic hearings that this is the approximate number of Muslims killed in a fair fight. So where are the "massacred" bodies. In fact, this is the question, even if one dismisses the Goran Matic version outright.

  However, David, I agree with you wholeheartedly on one thing. The Srebrenica massacre will be no problem for the prosecution. It could bypass it altogether and Milosevic would still convicted for Srebrenica. If we are to believe Andy and APV, the massacred bodies were not a problem for the prosecution even in the Krstic trial. And this in turn makes it quite "irrelevant" whether the bodies were aggregated or not.
  
  J N
  Finland

• Monday March 24, 2003 at 4:17 am
  By the way, the Goran Matic official version is the same as the official version according to the Erdemovic judgment.
  
  J N
  Finland

• Monday March 24, 2003 at 4:42 am
  Pera

  Yes, the Geneva convention applies to the Iraqis but does not apply to the Americans. Further evidence is the Afghanistan fiasco where it didn't apply at all. In fact, prisoners are removed to Guantanamo, not even the US, for trial? Hell, they're not even entitled to a trial at all! And they can stay there until someone decides it's too expensive to feed them. Maybe they can then send them to the San Diego zoo where the animals get superior treatment and accommodation.

  Goes to show how the rule of law and civilisation gets changed by those who can get away with it. And who is going to stop this New World Order strategy? Places like the ICTY? The ICC? I won't hold my breath on that.

  
  
  David
  Australia

• Monday March 24, 2003 at 4:47 am
  And this reminds me. Kathryn said that the UN was a thing of the past, so Yugoslavia should have held on a bit longer. But you don't see: if Yugoslavia had held on a bit longer, the UN would have had a mission for the future. You could say the same about Nato.

  Believe it or not, I agree you that it is too easy to criticize the US for everything. I might even admit I agree with James Rubin, who said that we don't know what it's like to be the country which everyone turns to when anything has to be solved in the world.
  
  J N
  Finland

• Monday March 24, 2003 at 7:13 am
  
  I regret that James Rubin is being quoted as a reliable source in this discussion. Rubin certainly knows what it is like to turn requests for help to advantage.

  State Department spokesman James Rubin expressed "grave concern" about the fate of 100,000 men, also referring to them as "unaccounted for," and adding: "Based on past practice, it is chilling to think where those 100,000 men are.”

  Some may have noticed that he is being trotted out each day by the BBC to comment upon the Iraq war. This tells you something about the impartiality of the BBC.

  A post hoc ‘Racak’ in Iraq?

  It will be interesting to hear what Rubin has to say about the ‘embedded’ - in bed with Blair and Bush - reporter from the Jerusalem Post who claims today that a WMD factory has been found in Western Iraq: Although he cannot tell us what chemical weapons it produces! I believe this tells us something about one of the undisclosed purposes of this war.

  Does the prominence of Rubin, Albright, Cohen … and their misinformation at that time also tells us something about a hidden purpose of the Kosovo war?
  
  Peter Taylor
  Herts/UK

• Monday March 24, 2003 at 7:37 am
  Milane

  The details at kristmas are not known here but already talked about them. Veljo Ilic sacrifice was v funny but document signed by Kostunica sending Milosevic to Hague was surprise to all of us.

  On Srebrenica, Commander of Srebrenica V Pandurevic might be able to put light on what really happened there. Does anyone know status of Pandurevic? Hague was said to be in negotiation with him to go to the Hague. Course the problem is that if he gets a deal he might just tell 'Hague' truth.

  You are a liar Bora, worse than that without shame. Your misrepresentation and lies (its there for all to see) about my views have done you no credit. Better to lie than cry ej? Thats good one for you.

  Kathryn yes thats all most younger people wanted / want some kind of future. Most common comment after assasination was 'Im going to leave this place'. Much easier to say than to do but you know tens thousands have left in last ten years. They are all around the world. Other cynical view you hear in Belgrade is 'the best of ours left the country'. I dont want to believe this but there are so many problems now that sometime I think it could be true.

  It is very amuse to hear when Bush talks of how he will prosecute war criminal, how can he stop himself from laughing. Then he talks of Geneva convention very quickly forgetting attitude of US for Afgani prisoners and disgusting treatment on Kuban island.
  
  Arandjel P V
  Srbija

• Monday March 24, 2003 at 9:20 am
  Arandjel,

  I know Bora very well and I can assure you he is one of the most honest persons I have ever met. He is hard working, intelligent, educated and I resent you calling him a liar. How dare you calling people names on this discussion? People start naming others once they lose arguments. I don’t even have to know what is argument about; it is enough for me that you are resolving to names calling. That tells me that you are wrong and Bora is right.
  
  Dakic Ana
  Serbia

• Monday March 24, 2003 at 9:50 am
  US Command Briefing: Iraqis are placing civilians in harms way. USA dropping bombs in civilian areas. KLA did the same thing. Serbs let the people leave the war zone. Who is the guilty party????

  Jari writes “I agree with James Rubin, who said that we don't know what it's like to be the country which everyone turns to when anything has to be solved in the world.” I have read someplace that pyromaniacs come to put out the fire that they started in order to be seen as a Good Samaritan..
  
  Walter Trkla
  Kamloops BC
  Canada

• Monday March 24, 2003 at 10:01 am
  
  The Systematic Destruction of Orthodox Christian Churches and Cemeteries in Kosovo-Metohija and Macedonia

  The UCK targeted Serbian Orthodox priests, nuns, men, women, and children. In a speech on September 16, 1999, Amfilohije noted the murder of a Serbian Orthodox priest by the UCK and the disappearance of another:

  Recently, a hole has been discovered in the vicinity of Istok and in it 40 corpses were found, among which was the body of Father Stefan from Budisavac monastery. Father Hariton is still unaccounted for.

  He described the murder and mutilation of Serbian women by the UCK:

  On the eve of the Vidovdan liturgy…[w]e laid to rest the bodies of Mileva Vujosevic, 50, shot dead with a bullet, her brains in which I stepped on entering her house, strewn and Marica Maric, a retarded girl, who was raped in her poor abode in Belo Polje. We found her on a broken couch, dead, disfigured.

  On December 23, 2002, it was reported that Kosovo Serb Trajan Trifunovic was murdered in Cernica near Gnjilane while tending his sheep near his house. He was murdered merely because he was a Serb. No one was apprehended for his murder. His killers remain “unknown persons” or “Albanian extremists”.

  This is the aftermath of Blair’s HUmanitariaN intervention in Serbia of which he frequently boasts. Look out Afghanistan and post war Iraq.

  Is this trial fair: Is it examining these matters: The answers are crystal clear.
  
  Peter Taylor
  Herts/UK

• Monday March 24, 2003 at 10:10 am
  Night at the Oscars: Michel Moore received an award. I did not expect it. There is hope for justice. The camera did not pan the audience much. When the camera panned the audience some smiles but mostly people looking to see how their neighbor is responding. Even in a so called DEMOCRACY people are afraid to show their true feelings. How sad.
  
  Walter Trkla
  Kamloops BC
  Canada

• Monday March 24, 2003 at 12:09 pm
  
  In spite of Rubin: One day the truth will be known

  As Blair now promotes himself as a champion of the fight against Islamic terror let us never forget that four year ago he championed Islamic terror in Kosovo.

  "The mujahideen established close relations with the key clans from the Drenica area in central Kosovo, the birthplace of the UCK, including Suleyman Selimi, "the Sultan," who comes from this area and is commander in chief of the UCK forces inside Kosovo.

  In these operations the mujahideen have already demonstrated their fearlessness and all-out commitment to the Muslim population. An example of this was the last stand of a mujahideen battalion of some fifty fighters under the command of Sheikh Muhammad al-Adalbi (also known as Abu-al-Abbas} north of the village of Meja. The battalion "was completely martyred following a ferocious battle with Serbian forces deep inside Kosovo" in which the Saudi and Egyptian mujahideen held the line, enabling the UCK to evacuate the Albanian civilians, destroy the local villages in an orderly scorched-earth withdrawal, and then reach Albanian sanctuary.

  The UCK destroyed the villages to alienate and radicalize the population so that they would fight the Serbs and to coerce the civilians to escape into exile so that there can be no normalization and Kosovo Albanian population under the control of the Serbs. This is a classic "revolutionary" strategy that has been implemented in several previous Islamic Liberation struggles such as those in Afghanistan, the Philippines, and Bosnia. A NATO spokesman attributed the emptying and destruction of Meja and surrounding villages to "Serbian ethnic cleansing."

  Is this trial fair: Has del Ponte deducted these Mujahedin martyrs from the few hundred ‘Kosovars’ Milosevic is accused of murdering and accounted for their murderous acts? We know the answer to those questions too!
  
  Peter Taylor
  Herts/UK

• Monday March 24, 2003 at 12:36 pm
  Walter, you are not fair. You know how hard it is for anyone to agree with James Rubin. I find him the most repulsive politician I know, but since the lesson for me to learn in this discussion is to find something good in everyone, I decided to find something good even in James Rubin.

  Don't miss the point, please. It is easy to throw our hazardous waste foolishly, undeservedly, absurdly and blah-blah-blah to the US. That was the point. I guess I will have to go through the Tarzan treatment again, with James Rubin as the theme this time.

  I suddenly realized that Tarzan really believes the stuff he/she is writing. He actually called me a "dangerous personality". What he says about these conspiracies are true to him/her, and that explains the pseudonym. Come on folks, should we do something?

  Milane, I notices what you said. Say something pungent. Any T.B. here?
  
  J N
  Finland

• Monday March 24, 2003 at 1:28 pm
  Arandjel

  Sorry, I cannot remember where I accused you of anything!
  
  Pero Peric
  Canada

• Monday March 24, 2003 at 3:15 pm
  Consular offices in Pristina may close | 21:17 | Tanjug PRISTINA -- Saturday - Officials are considering closing the US and British representative offices in Pristina, because of the possibility of terrorist attacks, Tanjug reports today. Sources within the offices say the only alternative to closing the offices is the suspension of public services and additional protection by US and British KFOR troops. An Islamic terrorist group is presumed to be behind the bombing of two international police stations in Kosovo overnight as well as a false bomb alert outside university buildings in Pristina. The group had earlier warned of attacks in the event of a US invasion of Iraq.
  
  Pera Bora
  Ottawa
  Canada

• Monday March 24, 2003 at 3:19 pm
  

  China learns from Belgrade history | 14:24 | Reuters

  BEIJING -- Monday -- China has given the United States the address of its embassy in Baghdad in the hope of avoiding a repeat of the deadly 1999 bombing of its mission in Belgrade, diplomatic sources said on Monday.

  China passed on the details of its Iraq mission, at around the time US-led coalition aircraft started dropping bombs in and around Baghdad, to prevent any repeat of the 1999 bombing Washington said happened because of outdated maps, they said.

  A US embassy spokesman in Beijing and the Chinese Foreign Ministry declined to comment.

  On May 7, 1999, an American B-2 stealth bomber dropped satellite-guided bombs on the Chinese embassy in Belgrade during NATO's Kosovo air campaign, killing three Chinese journalists and wounding more than 20 people.

  US officials claimed the bombing was a result of old intelligence and NATO apologised. But the bombing dented Sino-US relations as China's state media and most Chinese were, and remain, convinced it was a deliberate attack.

  After the attack, thousands of angry Chinese staged violent protests near US and other diplomatic missions in China.

  China's Foreign Ministry said last week its embassy in Baghdad had been evacuated, a move diplomats said was designed to eliminate the risk of another mishap that could send Sino-US relations into a nosedive.

  "They changed tack completely from what they had done in Belgrade," one Western diplomat said.

  "It might still be a story if their mission was hit with nobody in there, but they have taken away the big nightmare for them of the Chinese embassy and its employees being buried under the rubble again," he said.

  In Beijing, roads were closed and extra armed guards stationed near key embassies, including those of the United States, Britain, Israel and Spain, shortly before the US-led attack on Iraq began.
  
  Pera Bora
  Ottawa
  Canada

• Monday March 24, 2003 at 4:19 pm
  Mr Gogol Charlemagne,

  Re your post abot Russian sale of jamming equipment to Iraq:

  Read this article. Here is a small excerpt:

  It was the chairman of the radio club of Yugoslavia, Khranislav Milocevic. Valentin Kashinov answered. The Yugoslav described the great destruction and casualties caused by strikes of NATO aircraft, "HARM" air-to-ground missiles, and Tomahawk cruise missiles. Milocevic asked for help in fending off these bombardments. Valentin Vladimirovich immediately inquired if they had any microwave ovens. This was followed by a puzzled silence, and then: "Of course!" Kashinov advised that they get some ordinary microwave ovens and aim them upwards, with doors open, around an installation they wanted to protect, and then turn them on. Khranislav understood at once.

  The fact was that an American HARM missile would home in on any strong source of radio emission in the 400-10,000 MHz range, exactly the range of conventional household microwave ovens. Literally the next day following this conversation, NATO forced bombed their own embassies in Belgrade.

  NATO pilots were fooled, and bombed microwave ovens instead of Serbian tanks for nearly half the time of the air attacks.

  According to a British officer who spent six months in the region and offered his own assessment of bombing damage, the Serbs lured the NATO planes using household microwave ovens to simulate the emissions of armored transport systems.

  Read more at:

  http://globalresearch.ca/articles/BOG211A.html
  
  D. Jovanovic
  USA

• Monday March 24, 2003 at 4:26 pm
  Mr Gogol Charlemagne,

  Re your post abot Russian sale of jamming equipment to Iraq:

  Read this article. Here is a small excerpt:

  It was the chairman of the radio club of Yugoslavia, Khranislav Milocevic. Valentin Kashinov answered. The Yugoslav described the great destruction and casualties caused by strikes of NATO aircraft, "HARM" air-to-ground missiles, and Tomahawk cruise missiles. Milocevic asked for help in fending off these bombardments. Valentin Vladimirovich immediately inquired if they had any microwave ovens. This was followed by a puzzled silence, and then: "Of course!" Kashinov advised that they get some ordinary microwave ovens and aim them upwards, with doors open, around an installation they wanted to protect, and then turn them on. Khranislav understood at once.

  The fact was that an American HARM missile would home in on any strong source of radio emission in the 400-10,000 MHz range, exactly the range of conventional household microwave ovens. Literally the next day following this conversation, NATO forced bombed their own embassies in Belgrade.

  NATO pilots were fooled, and bombed microwave ovens instead of Serbian tanks for nearly half the time of the air attacks.

  According to a British officer who spent six months in the region and offered his own assessment of bombing damage, the Serbs lured the NATO planes using household microwave ovens to simulate the emissions of armored transport systems.

  Read more at:

  http://globalresearch.ca/articles/BOG211A.html
  
  D. Jovanovic
  USA

• Monday March 24, 2003 at 5:26 pm
  

  Drasko,

  Thanks for the link. I am aware and understand perfectly well the techniques used to jam the GPS array of satellites. The components to build such jammers are regular electronic parts for everyone to buy. The circuit diagram are also public knowledge and available in the internet. A google search will give you an idea.

  The HARM system is even easier to . . .well I rather keep quiet.

  I have finally found a place where to defect.
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Shangrilah

• Monday March 24, 2003 at 7:33 pm
  This is for D. Jovanovic and Nico T: I read your comments about mass executions and in particular, the River Neretva episode during World War II. Did you actually witness this massacre? You mentioned that it happened about 10-12 km. from Medjugorje and the reason I am interested is that my husband is from that area, a small village (not even on the maps) called Mamic - I'm not sure I have the correct spelling. It is very close to Grude where my sister-in-law lives. I have been to that area and to my understanding not many Serbs have resided there. However, I did mention this to my husband and a Croatian gentleman who is staying with us and they both said that many Croatians were killed in that massacre so it apparently is not exclusive to Serbs. There also was a sad song that people sang about it so it has not been forgotten. They said the city was Capljina and the cave is called Surmanci. Do you have any other information on this? There were also many other mass executions after the war by the Communists. My husband's older brother was a victim of one such purge.
  
  Jenny Morningstar
  Babylon
  USA

• Monday March 24, 2003 at 8:26 pm
  Jari,

  ''...but since the lesson for me to learn in this discussion is to find something good in everyone..."

  I see you have a sense of humor.
  
  Anna P
  California

• Monday March 24, 2003 at 8:41 pm
  

  This very day the infamous, cowardly, illegal and criminal aggression towards Yugoslavia begun in 1999. I will never forget nor forgive.

  Is the world better today as the perpetrators of this crime promised?
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Shangrilah

• Monday March 24, 2003 at 8:50 pm
  

  Jari

  Are you saying that the ICTY has dropped the former official version of Srebrenica (8000 dead) for the new Matic version?

  Why would they do that? Was their former version unsustainable and a "confession" by the more compliant YU government was the best they could do? Where does that leave the credibility of the indictments?
  
  David
  Australia

• Monday March 24, 2003 at 8:59 pm
  

  Hey Gogol,

  It seems to have become an annual event these days. Bomb a "rogue" nation every year! Let's see... since WW2, approx 40 odd nations have been bombed by the most democratic administrations the world has ever seen.

  By the end of this millenium that should leave us all eating mum's apple pie, Big Macs, Coca Cola and driving GM vehicles. Now that's Shangrila for you! Any bets on who is next year's candidate for a dose of democracy? LOL
  
  David
  Australia

• Monday March 24, 2003 at 9:06 pm
  All right, Arandjele PV.Kostunica sent Sloba to the Hague, if you insist.It has been good chance to see how irresponsible politicians can be found on responsible positions in Serbia.The questions is just how much their word worth.

  Mr Trkla ,you were close.He worried about pigs,he said that he wasn't capable to rule and he said something that could help you to see why he was never quarreling with anyone.He said to his brothers Serbs that because of his awkward temper he wouldn't be able to talk a lot but to immediately kill.'Thats what we want'-we said.

  One street dealer said about Djindjic :' with one look he is catching snake in the air '.If you don't have muscles people will call you as they call Kostunica - 'turtle'. I'd suggest not to judge Milosevic by his results.

  We don't know who assassinated knez Mihailo in 1868.In 1903. after pro-German Obrenovic dinasty king Petar came from France.The truth about 2003. is maybe somewhere in article given above by Robert Hessen. (We won't see it on French TV Arandjele PV)

  Mr Trkla I see that you remember old song about Sombor,place where "women drink wine".We will find them,drink with them and yell with them, and where and how Jagos and Jari will yell together that is not our business.
  
  milan masic
  serbia

• Monday March 24, 2003 at 9:20 pm
  

  Milan

  If such activity hasn't been banned by the emergency state laws maybe I could join you and Walter provided the women are nice, young, blonde and from good families? LOL
  
  David
  Australia

• Monday March 24, 2003 at 9:21 pm
  To Jenny Morningstar

  Let us recap just year 1941. I am sure your friends would be curious to read this.

  1941

  March 24: The Yugoslav government, after weeks of German flattery and threats, joins the Tripartite Pact. Though given assurances they will not be obliged to allow German troops to cross their territory, the primary reason for the Nazi pressure to sign was the use of the Nis-Thessaloniki railway to transport German troops for the invasion of Greece.

  March 26-27: A group of mostly junior officers, led by General Dusan Simovic, carries out a coup d'etat. Regent Prince Paul is deposed and the seventeen year old heir to the throne, King Peter, empowers a new government, including Croat Deputy Prime Minister and head of the Croat Peasant Party, Vladko Macek.

  March 30: Adolf Hitler issues a directive to the German Army (hereafter Wehrmacht) called Operation Enterprise 25, to "destroy Yugoslavia as a military power and sovereign state."

  April 6: The German Luftwaffe attacks Belgrade, killing between 12,000 and 17,000 people. The attacks do not drop a payload on Croatia. Citizens in Zagreb hear the voice of Ustase leader Ante Pavelic broadcasting from Italy, calling for a mutiny. "Croat soldiers, use your weapons against the Serbian soldiers and officers. We are already fighting shoulder to shoulder with our German and Italian allies."

  April 10: German troops occupy Zagreb. Slavko Kvaternik, deputy leader of the Ustase and soon to be named Field Marshal, proclaims the Independent State of Croatia in the name of the Poglavnik Ante Pavelic.

  April 11: Vladko Macek makes a broadcast announcement: "I invite all members of the Peasant Party to recognize the change, to help the new Croatia, and above all, to obey all its laws." Nevertheless his party deputy, governor of Croatia Ivan Subasic, flees with the royal government on April 15, to the Middle East and onward to London.

  April 16: Wearing a black fascist tunic, Ante Pavelic arrives in Zagreb for the first time in twelve years and assumes command of the Independent State of Croatia (hereafter NDH, after its Serbo-Croat acronym). He is greeted by a large congregation of officials, bureaucrats, and church officials, including Archbishop Alojzije Stepinac of Zagreb, head of the Croatian Catholic Church. The Yugoslav Armed Forces have not yet surrendered and are still fighting in the field, particularly to the south in Montenegro and Macedonia and even in Dalmatia. The official surrender came on April 18.

  April 27: A division of the newly-minted Ustase Army attacks Gudovac, a village with an exclusively civilian population. 196 Serbs and Jews are killed.

  April 30: Ante Pavelic issues several Decrees on race in the NDH. Based upon his Principles of the Ustase Movement written almost a decade ago in exile, the Poglavnik calls for the "purification" of Croatia from "alien elements." Jews and Roma are to be liquidated without delay. Serbs will wear armbands on which the letter P (for Pravoslav, or Orthodox Christian) is inscribed. Jews have their own with the letter Z for zidov.

  End of April: Ante Pavelic is granted a private audience with Pope Pius xII.

  May 8: Ustase security chief of the "Ustaska obrana" and Pavelic confidant Vjekoslav "Maks" Luburic leads an Ustase attack on the village of Blagaj.

  May 11: Royal Yugoslav Army Col. Dragoljub "Draza" Mihailovic and several junior officers depart for Ravna Gora, Serbia. Detachments of their "Cetnik" army are formed in Bosnia, Hercegovina, Slavonia and the Krajina largely as a reaction to the Ustase terror.

  May 12: Maks Luburic arrests and supervises the executions of 260 Jews, Serbs and left-wing sympathizers from the village of Prekopa.

  May 18: Italy and Croatia agree on precise borders. Nearly all of Dalmatia is ceded to Italy - an act which shocks many Ustase stalwarts and causes Archbishop Stepinac to weep. The NDH's borders nevertheless include all of "historic" Croatia, including Bosnia, and stretches to Zemun, at the gates of Belgrade itself.

  May 27: Prefect of Western Bosnia Viktor Gutic orders the arrest of the Orthodox Bishop of Banja Luka. His beard is shaved with a knife and his body mutilated before he is set on fire. All told 131 of 577 Orthodox priests (including three bishops) were murdered by the Ustase through the reign of the NDH, and about 60 others killed in fighting.

  Early June: The German Plenipotentiary for the region, General Edmund Glaise von Horstenau, begins a report to Berlin with the following words: "According to reliable reports from countless German military and civilian observers, during the last few weeks, in town and country, the Ustasha have gone raging mad." Dr. Hermann Neubacher, the German Plenipotentiary in SE Europe, refers to the horrifying atrocities meted out to the civilian population of the NDH as "a Croatian crusade of destruction."

  June 4: The German legation in Zagreb and the leaders of the NDH discuss Pavelic's plan to replace a significant part of the Serbian population of the NDH with Slovenes and Croats from lands annexed by Nazi Germany.

  June 6: Ante Pavelic meets with Adolf Hitler, who signs off on the population resettlement plan. Hitler counsels Pavelic to pursue "a fifty year plan of intolerance, because too much tolerance on such issues can only do harm."

  June 22: Germany attacks the Soviet Union.

  June 23: The Ustase kill 164 Serbs from Popovo Polje and execute them by throwing them into a gorge at Kotez.

  June 25: Massacre by Ustase units in the district of Stolac. 260 people killed.

  June 26: A speech by Doglavnik (Deputy Leader) Mile Budak is printed in the official newspaper Hrvatski List, which for the first time elucidates the Ustase goal of "killing a third, expelling a third, and converting a third" of the Serbian population of the NDH.

  June 28: Maks Luburic supervises the execution of 260 Serbs from the village of Prekopa. Nearly 4,000 Serbs are expelled from the district of Virovitica altogether.

  June 29: A Ustase unit captures 94 Serbs from Prisoje and throws them into a gorge on Mount Grabovica

  June 30: Ustase aided by Franciscan priests kill about 90 Serbs from Capljina near the Humac monastery.

  July 1: The village of Suvaja is burned by the Ustase, killing nearly 300.

  July 13: Beginning of the uprising by Cetniks and Communist-led Partizans in Montenegro, later known as "The People's Uprising." It is the first wide-scale insurrection in Occupied Europe.

  July 24: The Ustase begin a massive retaliation for a rebel ambush, executing more than 1,200 people from the vicinity of Grabovac over the next two days.

  July 28: In simultaneous attacks, Ustase units kill 248 civilians near Duvno, 80 people in Primisalj and Slunj, and 180 people at Ivanovic Jarak.

  July 29: Massacres in Livno (160 killed), Gracac (500), and an attack on a church in Glina (unknown), where worshippers are burned alive inside.

  July 31-August 4: Massacres in the vicinity of Bosanska Krupa. 1,000 people are killed over the next five days.

  August 2: A company of the Zagreb Ustasa battalion executes 800 hostages in Sanski Most.

  August 3: 700 Serbian men, women and children in Prijedor executed.

  August 4: A unit of the Ustase arrested 102 Serbs and threw them into a ravine at Bivolje Brdo.

  August 5: Venezia Division arrives in Montenegro and puts down the People's Uprising.

  August 6: 347 Serbs are taken from Kosinj near Perisic for conversion to Catholicism. Instead they are led to Kosa where they are executed.

  August 17: Beginning of the operation to "purify" Mostar. The city's Jewish population is arrested, and Serbs driven to the nearby villages.

  Early September: Approved by Interior Minister Andrija Artukovic and designed byMaks Luburic, the sprawling concentration camp of Jasenovac opens about 60 miles south of Zagreb. Among the guards and executioners are six Franciscan priests, including Zvonko Brekalo and the notorious Father Miroslav Filipovic Majstorovic, known as Fra Sotona (Brother Devil) for his cruelty.

  September 3: The Crna Legija (Black Legion) formed in Sarajevo. This was exclusively a terror unit, infamous for their brutality.

  September 5: In response to the Ustase massacres, the Italian army begins to reoccupy Hercegovina, offering their protection to the local Serbian and Jewish population. On the island of Pag they discover the bodies of 4,500 Serbs and 2,500 Jews.

  September 7: Italian General Vittorio Ambrosia gives his word of honor to protect the Jews in areas under his command.

  Late Autumn: Peasant Party leader Vladko Macek is released from Jasenovac to serve under house arrest until the conclusion of the war. His memoirs include his description of Jasenovac.

  December 12: The NDH declares war on the United States and Britain, following the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor and similar declarations by Nazi Germany and Italy.
  
  Dakic Ana
  Serbia

• Monday March 24, 2003 at 9:36 pm
  To Jenny Morningstar And about Medjugorje

  During the spring and early summer of 1941, the Ustasha, a Croatian fascist group which means “insurgent,” had created a short-lived but ferocious independent Croatian state by allying themselves with the Nazis. Local Ustashe did a little informal geological research of their own in the area between Medjugorje and the Neredva River, taking note of the largest jamas, the ones most suitable to their future purpose. Then in June of 1941 roughly two months after the creation of the NDH on April 10, armed Ustasha functionaries showed up at the predominantly Serbian village of Prebilovci on the eastern side of the Neredva and other Serb enclaves and announced to the villagers that they were all going to be deported to Belgrade. The Serbs were told they were going to be reunited with the Serbian fatherland, a prospect that took the edge off their anger and anxiety. So the Serbs showed up in their best clothes as they marched off to the train station, to become one more dislocated group in a Europe that seemed full of dislocation and people who went off in trains and never came back. The Serbs of Prebilovci were herded together with other Serbs from the western part of Herzegovina and eventually six carloads of them were sent off on a train that was supposedly to take them back to Belgrade. The train ride was much shorter than expected, at least as expected by the Serb passengers, who were ordered out of the six cars they occupied at a town called Surmanci, on the west bank of the Neredva, and marched off into the hills never to return.

  Roughly three months later, Bishop Zanic’s predecessor, Aloysije Misic, ordinary of Mostar, the ornate Ottoman town a few train stations upstream from Surmanci, wrote to Cardinal Stepinac, primate of the once and future Yugoslavia, a man who would end up in prison at the hands of Tito’s revolutionary justice, and told him of disquieting reports of atrocities perpetrated against the Serbs in his diocese. “Men are captured like animals,” Misic wrote, “they are slaughtered, murdered; living men are thrown off cliffs....From Mostar and from Capljina a train took six carloads of mothers, young girls, and children...to Surmanci....They were led up the mountains and...thrown alive off the precipices....In...Mostar itself they have been found by the hundreds, taken in wagons outside the town and then shot down like animals.”

  Eventually around 600 Serbs, including priests, women, and children, were thrown into the pit above Surmanci and then, after throwing hand grenades in on top of them, the Ustashe thugs buried them, most probably still alive. Parris writes: “At Prebilovci and Surmanci, in Herzegovina, 559 Serbs, all of them old men, women and children, were led to a deep crevice called Golubinka, massacred and then thrown into space. And to do the job more thoroughly, hand grenades were hurled down upon the dying bodies.” Parris then goes on to list the names of the perpetrators, a list which includes names like Ostojic and Ivankovic, names which are common enough in the area-names, in fact, of people still living in Medjugorje. Brian Hall wonders in his book on the break-up of Yugoslavia whether the Ostojic he stayed with while in Medjugorje was the Ostojic accused of the Surmanci atrocity.

  
  
  Dakic Ana
  Serbia

• Monday March 24, 2003 at 9:41 pm
  

  Ana Dakic and Jenny Morningstar

  Your posts have nothing to do with the Milosevic Trial or the Sombor issue.

  Could you please stay on topic?
  
  David
  Australia

• Monday March 24, 2003 at 9:43 pm
  Link to Surmanci and Medjugorje

  http://www.culturewars.com/CultureWars/Archives/cw_feb98/surmanci.html
  
  Dakic Ana
  Serbia

• Monday March 24, 2003 at 9:50 pm
  You are right David and yet not right. This does take space on the page and I apologize for it. However, denial of genocide is the root of the fear from Serbs from Croatia, and it does concerned trial, especially Croatia phase. I am somewhat angry that person like Tudjman, person that denied Holocaust was invited to opening of the holocaust museum.
  
  Dakic Ana
  Serbia

• Monday March 24, 2003 at 10:01 pm
  

  Relax Ana. I was only kidding. I just hope Sombor is nowhere near NDH because that could throw a spanner in my agenda. LOL
  
  David
  Australia

• Monday March 24, 2003 at 10:07 pm
  You are so right, I should "chill" a little. But I guess politics for Serbs is what bear for Irish, Soccer for Italians and driving for Chinese.
  
  Dakic Ana
  Serbia

• Monday March 24, 2003 at 10:20 pm
  And this is a link to one of the New Serbian Martyr

  http://www.spc.org.yu/News/novomucenici/georgije_e.html
  
  Dakic Ana
  Serbia

• Monday March 24, 2003 at 10:21 pm
  Gogol, we have to forgive,forget and fight.
  
  milan masic
  serbia

• Monday March 24, 2003 at 10:22 pm
  Gogol, we have to forgive,forget and fight.
  
  milan masic
  serbia

• Monday March 24, 2003 at 10:52 pm
  David

  If not for a few 'big' ones dropped on, 'rogue' Japan, Australia would today be another 'Okinawa'. As I recall they were shivering in their boots at the time.

  But the next best candidates deserving attention is the 'administrations' of N. Korea, the country that hijacked the USS Pueblo and incarcerated the crew, and kidnapped a dozen Japanese citizens for 'interpreters'. Then Saudi Arabia, the country that gave us the WTC 'pilots'. Followed by Libya's Kadafe. The guy responsible for planting a 'radio' bomb in our passenger jet. With those nuts around, I don't know what was the logic of bombing Serbia.

  I think you get carried away senselessly bashing the USA. In the last 40 years the 'democracies' gave the world Snowmobiles, cell phones, air travel and computers.

  BTW, the only thing I remember from Australia was Crocodile Dundee, a sweater, a concertina and 3 versus of Waltzing Matilda. But to their credit they are one of our better consistent allies.
  
  J P
  USA.Wis

• Monday March 24, 2003 at 11:44 pm
  Milane I am not sure what my wife would say about your plan but it sounds interesting the wine I mean. I am starting to lose my hearing so you and David do the yelling. You know I would like Jari to join us to see what Serbian hospitality is all about, but I am sure he knows. Milane I am quite sure that Karadjordje and others quarreled because the Turks came back and clobbered us. Nothing has changed???? You are OK Milane I think I would like to go to Sombor and sing the old songs. Let’s also invite Peter he loves poetry and he loves his country, rebukes it and does not excuse its sins. We should all be like that

  My NGO friend tells me he has not found one Serb that he does not like. As a school teacher (Tarzan this is silly use another name) he does not deal with environmental problems. So Tarzan I can’t help you with your question. However, DU or U 238 uranium waste from power plants has found a method of disposal that being the weapons industry. Heavy metals are part of this weapon where plutonium is a major component with a life span of 4.5 billion years. Cancers are a result of exposure.

  Just a few points about Iraq because I am sickened by this war and the people who see themselves as representing justice by committing crimes against humanity. Those that know the history of Iraq stop right here.

  At the end of WWI promises for independence for Iraq broken by Britain and France.

  In 1920 oil discovered. Rebellions in Iraq lead Churchill to use chlorine and mustard gas against “tribesmen”.

  In 1928 Britain separates Kuwait from Iraq and gives it to the Saba family. Maintains control over oil.

  Post WWI period new Arab leaders want status quo to change. Nasser nationalizes Suez and Musaddiq of Iran in 1951 nationalizes oil operations in Iran. Iraq becomes a friend and in time American friend the Shaw of Iran is placed in power.

  In Iraq Cassam (My spelling) nationalizes oil reserves is labeled a communist by USA. Saddam replaces him with USA help.

  In 1972 OPEC raises price of oil from $3 per barrel to $22. Saddam nationalizes oil branded a terrorist by USA.

  Ayatollah Hominy expels the Shaw of Iran and starts to spread fundamentalism, Sadam is armed by USA and Brits to stop Iran. Ten years war with Iran using weapons provided by USA including chemicals. Iraq is in debt 40 billion US and wants to maximize oil prices.

  Kuwait exceed OPEC quota, contrary to agreement, and depresses oil prices and Iraq loses 30% of its oil revenue. US tell Iraq that they would not defend Kuwait. US suckers Iraq to invade Kuwait. USA freezes Iraqi assets and convinces Saudi Arabia with false photos that they were next on the Iraqi invasion plan. Saudis let USA enter and establish a base in Saudi Arabia. Kissinger states “Oil is too important to be left to the Arabs”. Saudi Arabis becomes American base for control of Middle East oil. America brings in over a half million men to Arabia. Saddam is told by Bush Sr, that he had 48 hours to leave Kuwait.

  In 1991 110 thousand sorties kill 200000 Iraqis. Homes, water system, telephone, electricity, transport bombed into the Stone Age.

  On Feb. 23 1991 ground forces enter Iraq and face bands of poorly trained nomads that according to one American soldiers, mosquitoes and flies took a bigger bite than the Iraqi troops.

  Large portion of 250,000 Iraqi troops did not enter Kuwait (Schwarzkopf). Iraqi people start to revolt against the regime. Busch Sr. supports Sadam who defeats his enemies.

  Sanctions are placed on Iraq and as a result close to ½ million Iraqi children die. This is the lower estimate some suggest that death toll was one and a half million.

  UN sanction and inspectors monitor Iraq. Ritter (US monitor with the UN) states that all the weapons were destroyed but US refused to lift sanctions. One of the US inspectors, according to Ritter, is a CIA agent, who provides reports to the US government and it’s military. USA establishes No fly Zones to intimidate Iraq as the UN directive said nothing about fly Zones. Albright states “Half million Iraqi children is a small price to pay to get Saddam out.

  The price for this folly runs into the billions, Iraqi economy devastated, 183 000 US servicemen apply for disability, 10,000 die. Thousands of Iraqi children die fromU238. Iraq is back in the Stone Age. Massive weapons sales by USA

  Every intervention in this region has been because of OIL. The power base in Iraq revolves around Saddam just the way it revolves around Time -Warner, Bush, and Wolfowitz..The truth shall make us free.
  
  Walter Trkla
  Kamloops BC
  Canada

• Monday March 24, 2003 at 11:57 pm
  JP

  I like to distingusih between the American people and the various administrations which drag them into all these adventures throughout the world in the name of "democracy".

  I don't think I get "carried away" at all, nor do I feel I'm bashing the USA senselessly as I do not consider EVERY USA intervention unjustified. Only the ones which are dictated by policies such as the Monroe Doctrine which it seems has been expanded from Latin America to the entire world now that the Cold War is over.

  As for Australia being another Okinawa, it may be that Japan may not have acted the way it did if it hadn't been subjected to a decade long blockade by the USA. Still, it's imperialist objectives were what they were and were a result of its belief that it could achieve them. Maybe they thought they were in a position similar to the position the USA is in now.

  EVERY great military or economic power in history has had expansionist ideas and has acted on them, spreading its values and ideals, imposing them on smaller nations and powers (even the noble Christian missionaries spread civilisation and enlightenment wherever they went, at the point of a sword or gun, whenever they could or considered it worthwhile). Show me a SINGLE example where that was not the case. Sure it was always couched in noble, humanistic ideals, after all, they could hardly expect the ordinary people to support, and die for, the economic or political goals of the ruling elites.

  Therefore, I'm not at all surprised that the generally idealistic and well intentioned people of the USA are such easy fodder for the spin doctors when it comes to foreign policy. By way of example, given your scant knowledge of Australia, if Australia were attacked by the USA for whatever reason, I'm sure they could easily sell you the line that it was a job well worth doing. I'll certainly breathe a sigh of relief when I see the American people become more cynical towards their politicians' machinations and foreign policy aspirations.

  Apart from that, you are right, America has given the world a lot of great things.
  
  David
  Australia