 MILOSEVIC TRIAL DISCUSSION ARCHIVE |
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Former Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic is on trial for war crimes in the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia at The Hague. This marks the first time a head of state has been personally prosecuted before an international criminal court.
Is Slobodan Milosevic getting a fair trial?
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- discussion archive
- Tuesday March 25, 2003 at 12:07 am
Today is the fourth anniversary of the first day of that shameful US-led attack against my country. We were the first test rabbits and the invaders got away with their illegality; therefore, they proceeded with more of the same elsewhere. My thoughts and feelings are now with the Iraqis who are being killed, maimed and humiliated as a nation by that same arrogant and ignorant force. Which country will be the next victim? The formal opposition to the attack against us was almost non-existent; in the case of Iraq, some countries did put up some fight; hopefully, the third time around the arrogance would be prevented and restrained from further meddling into the affairs of others and from causing further instability and misery. Being the only superpower requires some brains as well, not only raw strength.There was a noble speaker who remembered those victims from 4 years ago and he did so on 15 March, speaking in front of the flag-covered coffin of the assassinated Serbian Prime Minister, in the St. Sava cathedral, before the coffin was taken to the graveyard. It was the Serbian Orthodox Church Metropolitan Amfilohije who spoke, presumably about the assassinated Prime Minister, but actually about the dead man Djindjic. He pitied his young life. He felt sorry for his family. He didn't praise him shamelessly, as others did. He didn't want to lie and exaggerate. He put this death into recent and not so recent historical prospective. He forgave and understood his sins. He spoke about fratricide and treason and about Karadjordje, betrayed by his own, whose monument was right outside the cathedral. He spoke about those killed by the bombing four years ago (three-year old Milica Rakic, killed by bombs while sitting on her potty in her Belgrade suburb house on 17 April 1999), about those being slain during the civil wars as well as now in Kosovo, about homeless refugees and about the Iraqis whose killings were imminent.
The reaction to this speech by the 'Government' was furious over the last few days: they accused the Metropolitan of 'political grandstanding' (well, it was the Prime Minister killed and not some anonymous citizen) and of 'comparing Djindjic to Karadjordje' (I'm afraid, quite the opposite was the case, he was compared to the Obrenovic, the one who delivered the head to the Turks). They thundered that Amfilohije spoke of his own volition and not representing the Church. Perhaps they feared how the almighty US Ambassador would react to the mentioning of Iraqis, after the 'Government' subserviently obeyed the US circular letter, and expelled 2 Iraqi diplomats together with their families from their Belgrade Embassy? I almost expected them to arrest the Metropolitan and take him in for questioning. Tonight the Church issued the statement, saying that the Metropolitan 'was not speaking of his own volition, but with the full consent of the Patriarch Pavle'. What will the 'Government' do now? Will they fine the Church or even ban it, as they did with some newspapers? In conformity with the stifling of any word of dissent, the speech of the Metropolitan was never to be found in the English version of our media outlets on the net, only the vicious attacks against him were presented there, and not the thing that had caused them. Therefore, here's my translation of the speech of the Metropolitan Amfilohije given at the St. Sava on 15 March 2003 [source of the original: www.novosti.co.yu]. It will help you understand the feelings about those killed four years ago. And perhaps also the split and/or mixed feelings of sadness and resentment for the Prime Minister killed recently. And the 'Government' not letting all those feelings to be expressed freely is sitting on a powder keg. [Note of the translator: I'm not religious myself, so I can only hope I got the church terms right.]
"This world of ours is a tyrant to a tyrant, let alone to a noble soul. These are the words, dear brothers and sad gathering, that surge into our minds here, in front of the catafalque of Zoran Djindjic, the perished Prime Minister of Serbia. These words are surging into our minds all the more so as we are within the temple that has risen from the burned relics and the dust of the martyr who was the greatest educator of the Serbs, Saint Sava. Before Zoran Djindjic, only one was resting in this place, the one who left behind him the message to his and to any other people on earth: 'The kingdom of this earth is short-lived, the heavenly one is for always and forever.' This was the beheaded grand-martyr of Kosovo, Lazar.
We are here today making our farewells to Zoran Djindjic. In the vicinity of the trench and the monument to the Leader Karadjordje, whose head was cut off by the best-man's and brother's hand as well and it dripped away, stuffed with straw, in Istanbul two hundred years ago.
As the folk saying goes: 'Any wound is close to the heart.' And this wound, the wound of Zoran Djindjic - not only for his mother, for his Ruzica, Luka and Jovana, but for all of us and for the whole people - is a wound right in the centre of the heart. And it's not known which one is deeper: this wound of his, opened by the hand of fraternal hatred, or the wound of Milica Rakic, killed in the bombing in 1999, or the wound of Marica Milic from Belo Polje near Pec, whose throat was cut and who was buried on the eve of St. Vitus Day behind the altar of the Patriarchate of Pec, that same year. Or those numerous wounds, unhealed, opened in these our areas, at the times of the madness of the recent civil war and bombardments. All these wounds are illuminated and warmed by the flame of hundreds of Kosovo's shrines, burned down in our days.
Zoran Djindjic, whom we are seeing off today from this holy temple to the everlasting rest, will be remembered by many things. But, primarily by how he stretched out the hand of the brotherly peace and reconciliation towards Europe and the world, at the moment of the deepest humiliation of his people, in the manner of the Obrenovics. The hand, when still hundreds of thousands of his people are exiles from their hearths, in a home without home. In a land without land. In a mother country without mother country.
In the moment when a sword of the Pilat-type justice is standing above the head of his people - Zoran Djindjic has initiated the renewal of the bloodstream of the people's social life. The renewal of the state unity between Serbia and Montenegro, the severed connections with the world. But, he was killed by the fraternal hatred, nearsighted and blind, overlooking the eternal truth - he who lives by the sword, dies by the sword.
And, if the killing of one man - Zoran Djindjic - is such a great evil, how great then is the evil of the death and perishing of so many men in recent wars, here and throughout the world. How much evil and innocent blood spilling awaits the Iraqi people in our days in the war that looms.
The wound of Zoran Djindjic warns and reminds all men and peoples of reason and sense: enough of fraternal hatred, enough of war. Every murder, ever since that one of Kain, is a fratricide. Enough of fratricide in the world. Evil brings no good to anyone. War is no brother to anyone.
In addition, that by what Zoran Djindjic will be remembered and by what this people will remember him - it is his deep desire and care towards the completion of this holy temple of the oath of the Serbian Orthodox people, from which we see him off into the eternity without coasts of the Divine secret.
Zoran knew that without the temple, as the God-man's measure of human dignity, there is not and could not be any real future and complete renewal of life of his own people and of all the peoples on earth. Therefore, here by his own burial rites within the temple of St. Sava, he not only builds himself into his own care, but also he builds himself and his deep wound into this temple. The most precious that a man can build into a shrine.
Therefore we pray to the Lord Christ, the Master of life and death, may His all-encompassing and all-healing wound of the Golgota, which Zoran has managed to touch during his visit to Jerusalem, as I have recently heard, after waiting for several hours to approach the Holy Grave, may that wound of the martyr of the Golgota and of the Saviour Lord of love, heal not only the wound of Zoran, not only the wounds of this people of his, not only the wound of his mother, of his Luka, of Jovana, of his Ruzica, but may it also heal all the wounds of his kin and may the wicked fraternal hatred within all the peoples on earth be healed. And may it illuminate, may the wound of the Golgota illuminate by its eternal love, peace and truth all the peoples on earth.
May the Lord, who is the donor of life and provider of peace, give peace to his ashes. Peace to his people. Peace to all the peoples on earth. And the Lord who takes into His bosom all creatures, may He rest his soul in peace. In the eternal light of His face, now and forever and for the centuries to come. Amen."
Vera Martinovic
Belgrade
Yugoslavia - Tuesday March 25, 2003 at 12:11 am
Walter
You forgot to mention that Iraq, Iran and Libya are also favouring the Euro for their oil in lieu of just US dollars. For those who know a little about economics, this is a slight problem for the US as it limits its monopoly of global finances and control of OPEC. Therefore, Iraq HAS to be taught a lesson as do Libya and Iran in order to restore US control.
What ever happened to free markets and competition? The mighty greenback has to win! That's why the US dollar is declining against the Euro and why N Korea, despite its atomic programs is nowhere near the top of the priority list.
David
Australia - Tuesday March 25, 2003 at 4:18 am
In case you do not know there are some good articles on Iraq on Mother Jones.Com.Gogol writes:
“This very day the infamous, cowardly, illegal and criminal aggression towards Yugoslavia begun in 1999. I will never forget nor forgive. ”
My response:
Me too!...and what about bombing Bosnian Serbs.....I will never forget nor forgive.
Walter writes:
About Hollywood Academy Awards and Michael Moore’s comments about the illegitimate president and the fear of Hollywood in a democracy. My response:
Hollywood does not care much for Michael Moore. He campaigned for Ralph Nader and thus they believe he was in a small way responsible for the illegitimate president we now have.
I hate Hollywood because that blonde (Renee something or other) was “Chicago” and the one with the three names is married to Michael Douglas and unlike Ralph Nader, he is “in” and she got an award for being married to Michael Douglas, not Ralph Nader or Michael Moore.
Jari defends James Rubin, Ugh!
My response:
If Jari has any connections would he please ask Rubin the following:
Who called for the help of the US to bomb Iraq? Was it twenty five Kurds living in the US in luxurious homes?
Back to Serbia.....did Rubin’s breathtakingly beautiful wife (just kidding) who admitted on a national television show that while in Bosnia she never had time for a bath,(yucky) have any prejudices against the Serbs coming from her Iranian half self?
What his wife had to say about the article in the Foreign Affairs magazine quoting a retired air force officer by the name of Boyd as commenting that Amnapour never reported from the Serbian side and ignored massacres against the Serbs.
What the United States received from Saudi Arabia soon after Bosnia was bombed.
Oh, one more thing... ask Rubin what he and Amnapour saw in each other, and was it that no one else would have either one of them?
What Gary Hart Thinks About Foreign Policy:
Gary Hart the individual who ran for president a few years ago and probably would have made it but for a passion for younger women, is thinking of running again.
The republicans have a direct line to God (translated by that fat man called Rev. Falswel)which reads ..lusting for women is forbidden, unless you are a homosexual man.
So that leaves Gary out. I myself ...have nothing against Hart and think he might even know how to read and write. Hart believes our foreign policy should not be made by individuals who come to this country with their sad stories. He did not say “sad stories” but in essence this is what he meant. I agree with Hart on that issue. I am not holding my breath though.... tomorrow he might join the pack and vow to give up women....young and old.
Arandjel for your review and comment:
You can find the article in its entirety on the Serbian Unity Congress Forum:
By: Srdja Trifkovic, Serbia After Djindjic........
”In the meantime the atmosphere of fear and physical and legal uncertainty exceeds the darkest times of Milosevic. My usually well informed sources had to resort to temporary e-mail accounts in Internet cafes to communicate what is considered too dangerous to spell out on an open telephone line. Their most intriguing message is that Djindjics killing could have been an inside job. Why was Djindjics usually tight and efficient security detail so lax on the day of the murder, they ask. Why was the entire area overlooking the back yard of the main government building left uncovered? How was it possible for the three assassins to walk in and out of a building directly facing what should be one of the best guarded spots in the land? “
Anna from CA:
You did say something nice about my parents......remember? Only my Mother was born in Pennsylvania, and my German ex friend, thought my Mother “the only decent person in the US.” The idiot had some good thoughts and Anna keep trying you might even begin to like me as I keep my flag(it’s a real small one) tucked in a box along with my old baby dolls.
What is wrong with this picture?: Yesterday, I saw the flag being waved so conspicuously that Anna it would have taken your breath away. A red car with the biggest US flag....the stripes in the back window (the entire window was covered) and the other half , (the stars)displayed through the sun roof.On every tinted window (I thought tinted windows were against the law) big bold white lettering, “Support the troops.” I nearly crashed into a few cars as I observed this spectacle of “freedom is not cheap” and tried to see in the window to admire this individual’s recklessness in driving a vehicle he could not see out of.
The vehicle was a HONDA made in Japan. Well so much for you guys who have lost your jobs in the auto industry in the US, maybe you can get another job in the US Army and you can count on him for support that is if he does not crash his car into a few anti war protestors.
And to all Serbs in the former Yugoslavia,,,,goodnight, God Watch Over Serbia, Bless Her and Keep Evil Spirits Out.
Kathryn Love
sjc
USA - Tuesday March 25, 2003 at 4:39 am
Vera I almost applauded. Metropolitan Amfilohije as I read along.
Kathryn Love
SJC
USA - Tuesday March 25, 2003 at 4:51 am
The trial chamber sat this morning for a little while to talk about witnesses, testimonies, experts, etc, while Mr. Slobodan Milosevic, the defendant, remained sick in his detention cell.
Mr. Nice (NATO) was mercurial and had a fabulous idea regarding the testimony of an expert witness who, or so it seems, does not need to be cross examined: Mr. Milosevic could watch the public TV broadcast of the trial including the testimony while in his detention cell. Magnificent, splendid idea Geoffrey Nice (NATO) never thought of it, Mr. Milosevic could watch his own trail!
Hopefully Frank will fix the audio level since it is really meek.
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangrila - Tuesday March 25, 2003 at 5:01 am
I am glad to learn, thanks to Vera, many, at all levels, in Belgrade don't forget nor forgive
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangrila - Tuesday March 25, 2003 at 7:56 am
beautiful Vera thks
AP V
NY
NY - Tuesday March 25, 2003 at 10:05 am
I hope that we will not go into a session of declaring our fait into democratic system in order to feel free to criticize it. My understanding is that we are focusing on one problem that has developed in the most dominant democratic countries i.e. an emerging attempt to abuse democracy and especially law as a tool of spreading our implementation of democracy throughout the world. We are doing it for the selfish reason of protecting our own future and future of our families and not Somalis, ex Yugoslavs, Iraqis etc. We are protecting democracy and its accomplishments against its abusers and money hungry people that do not know when enough is enough.
Pera Bora
Ottawa
Canada - Tuesday March 25, 2003 at 1:34 pm
Halliburton, company that built the Bondstil base in Kosovo again in the news.
Iraq rebuilding contracts awarded
Halliburton, Stevedoring Services of America get government contracts for early relief work. March 25, 2003: 12:48 PM EST
NEW YORK (CNN/Money) - The first contracts for rebuilding post-war Iraq have been awarded, and Vice President Dick Cheney's old employer, Halliburton Co., says it is one of the early winners.
URL: http://money.cnn.com/2003/03/25/news/companies/war_contracts/index.htm
Pera Bora
Ottawa
Canada - Tuesday March 25, 2003 at 2:12 pm
Kathryn,"...ask Rubin what he and Amnapour saw in each other, and was it that no one else would have either one of them.. "
Haven't you noticed? They're one of those couples where the two parties fall in love with images of themselves - they look alike. In fact, it must be like looking adoringly into a mirror. :-)
By the way, I don't dislike you, nor do I dislike the American people. I agree with David about that. To you I responded a couple of times because of your verbal flag waving (I've seen the real flags on the SUVs, too.) You're the one that gets testy any time I point out something wrong with the Democrats or JFK or such like. Meaning no criticism allowed, or what? Then you bring up this red herring all the time about how you've had a good life in the U.S. So what? I mean, what is that supposed to mean anyway? People have good personal lives all over the globe. I'm not complaining about my personal life in the U.S. or abroad, but I damned sure have some complaints about policy, especially foreign policy, and yes, especially when that policy meddles with Serbia because it's close to my heart. And I'll feel free to mention, as I believe, that contributors of that foreign policy are in the Democratic Party just as much as in the Republican Party, and in Clinton's day more so) and that Bill Clinton, for example, is a piece of drek, although Albright might be a yet bigger piece of drek. Since you are an intelligent contributor here, why do you feel compelled to do this "rah, rah U.S.A." bit every so often? I don't get what you're responding to. Who's saying that everything about the U.S. is bad? I've heard people in my town lately say that we shouldn't complain about the U.S. because other countries are so much worse. Well, you can always find something or somewhere WORSE, so does that mean we should make no effort to improve ourselves, but should wallow self-contentedly in a self-congratulatory pool of "my life is great, so p____ off"? The U.S. had a great potential. I think it still has, but it's hard to tell anymore. I think we should strive for that, nevertheless -- towards true Democracy and government by the people, not by the duped people. The only way I know to help go toward to that potential is for the American people to be educated properly, and informed truthfully, not dummed down and held back by fear of this or that potential threat or this or that lofty but utterly phony humanitarian goal. What keeps Americans dummed down the most is this constant propaganda from cradle to grave that we live "in the best country on earth." A lot of America actually believes this supercilious nonsense. I say, sure it is, but only if you're completely gullible and you've never been anywhere else, OR if you just choose to believe. I'm sure it's comforting for them and it certainly makes foreign policy easy to swallow since, by definition, we must be the good guys in every situation. All part of the typical American ailment, in especially sharp focus in Hollywood, of whatever makes you feel good is good.
Anna P
California - Tuesday March 25, 2003 at 2:31 pm
Vera,The Metropolitan's words are brave and awesome. Thank you for bringing his eulogy of Djindjic to our attention. I will read it at the Novosti site in Serbian now.
Anna P
Califoria - Tuesday March 25, 2003 at 3:28 pm
Thank you Vera, for your dedication and insight.Kathryn; Canadians were stupid in believing US and UK stories of mass rapes and ethnic cleansing in Kosovo. Tune in to CBC's counterspin and you will see how Canadians feel. You will notice both Canada and Mexico support the UN dispite attempted blackmail.
We cannot undo our NATO participation in Kosovo, but the discredited CIA will in future have a much harder time selling its lies.
Pertti Lindroos
Quesnel
BC Canada - Tuesday March 25, 2003 at 4:35 pm
Tank you Ms. Ana Dakic for providing a succinct reply to one Jenny Morningstar.I see that few of our compatriots feel that we should not “ pour the salt on the old wounds”. May I argue the contrary.
For the fifty years after the war under the Tito’s governance the people of Yugoslavia were urged ( compelled) to observe the Brotherhood and Unity philosophy. The crimes of the Croatian Ustashi were mostly swept under the rug. The simplistic explanation was that those crimes were committed by Fashists ( meaning German) and that capitalist forces were responsible. I believe similar explanation was promulgated in East Germany.
Western world hardly knew what had happened in Yugoslavia. Jasenovac was vaguely mentioned. Most Croatians used this pretext to play amnesia to the crimes to which they were responsible either as executioners or passive observers. I believe that by some insidious design of the current demonization of Serbs is largely Croatian doing. This is such a convenient guilt transfer! The Hague kangaroo court was invented to allegedly pacify the civil war hostilities. Quite the contrary- it serves the purpose to demonize the Serbs.
Now there is no claim on my part that the Serbs are innocent lambs. Far from that. We Serbs and the Croats are of the same ethnicity. Same language same makeup. The difference is the religion : Catholic and East Orthodox. ( Much like Protestants and Catholics in Ireland). Thus we both are prone to brutality. However, whereas we Serbs admit that, the Croatian never have. De-nazification of Croatia has never taken place.
This is why Hitler like salute is still practiced by young Croatians at football matches, or demonstrations. ( Just open a BBC page with a picture of a young man doing a Nazi salute).
To conclude, this “salt on old wounds” is necessary. It serves the purpose to enlighten the world about the past and perhaps attempt to de- nazify Croatia.
D. Jovanovic
USA - Tuesday March 25, 2003 at 4:38 pm
Tank you Ms. Ana Dakic for providing a succinct reply to one Jenny Morningstar.I see that few of our compatriots feel that we should not “ pour the salt on the old wounds”. May I argue the contrary.
For the fifty years after the war under the Tito’s governance the people of Yugoslavia were urged ( compelled) to observe the Brotherhood and Unity philosophy. The crimes of the Croatian Ustashi were mostly swept under the rug. The simplistic explanation was that those crimes were committed by Fashists ( meaning German) and that capitalist forces were responsible. I believe similar explanation was promulgated in East Germany.
Western world hardly knew what had happened in Yugoslavia. Jasenovac was vaguely mentioned. Most Croatians used this pretext to play amnesia to the crimes to which they were responsible either as executioners or passive observers. I believe that by some insidious design of the current demonization of Serbs is largely Croatian doing. This is such a convenient guilt transfer! The Hague kangaroo court was invented to allegedly pacify the civil war hostilities. Quite the contrary- it serves the purpose to demonize the Serbs.
Now there is no claim on my part that the Serbs are innocent lambs. Far from that. We Serbs and the Croats are of the same ethnicity. Same language same makeup. The difference is the religion : Catholic and East Orthodox. ( Much like Protestants and Catholics in Ireland). Thus we both are prone to brutality. However, whereas we Serbs admit that, the Croatian never have. De-nazification of Croatia has never taken place.
This is why Hitler like salute is still practiced by young Croatians at football matches, or demonstrations. ( Just open a BBC page with a picture of a young man doing a Nazi salute).
To conclude, this “salt on old wounds” is necessary. It serves the purpose to enlighten the world about the past and perhaps attempt to de- nazify Croatia.
D. Jovanovic
USA - Tuesday March 25, 2003 at 7:26 pm
Blair heading for the ICCAfter only six days of this disgusting attack on Iraq casualties climb into the thousands - well on the way to ten thousand - some one thousand killed and many more injured. As in Serbia women and children too must pay the price for Blair’s convictions. There was another less bloody way of disposing of the tyrant Hussein.
Appearing as a witness at the ICTY early in the trial Paddy Ashdown claimed that the principle charge against Milosevic was that he had used disproportionate force in combating the KLA insurgency. He falsely claimed that the British never attacked civilian areas with tanks and artillery.
Those not sickened by this hypocrisy at the time will be so this evening: watching broadcasts of British artillery firing into the centre of Basra a city of some 1.5 million people. There was an excuse of course. We are told that this was to attack Fedayeen fighters because they were brutally quelling an uprising of civilians some of whom they had used as human shields.
‘Do as I say not as I do’: When the Serbs made similar claims for their tank attacks upon KLA positions - because of the KLA’s abduction and murder of Loyal Kosovars - these claims were dismissed.
Blair’s stock, we are told by the BBC, is rising by the day as he slaughters more and more Iraqis in this unnecessary criminal aggression. In today’s press conference this paragon of virtue had the gall to blame the rising cases of leukaemia among Iraqi children on the Baghdad regime as Anglo/US forces spray radioactive munitions around again like confetti - and as they did in Serbia. Cluster bombs too are back on the menu. My how he takes people in with his Oscar winning performances. BTW what is that thing that keeps changing shape and covering patches on the top of his balding head?
There is no limit to the criminality of ‘The Allies of Evil’ How long will it be before Iraqi TV goes the way of the RTS in Belgrade?
Bush has asked for $75 Billion as an interim payment for this illegitimate war. How much will the British have to stump up for warmonger Blair’s third criminal folly? Or maybe he just intends to steal Iraqi oil.
Peter Taylor
Herts/UK - Tuesday March 25, 2003 at 8:41 pm
Why argue with fools and the ignorant who so blissfully wallow in their self-constructed mud pits? Mr. Jovanovic - "Za Dom" is not a Nazi salute as you so hopelessly and stupidly interpret it. It is performed with the arm outstretched and then brought into the body - For God, country and individual and is an expression of pride in Croatia and unity of the Croatian people. I doubt if you have ever seen it in its full entity or you wouldn't be making such ridiculous and embarassing (to you) accusations. You know, when you first wrote your comments and proximity on the Neretva River episode I shared this with my husband he told me this is what I should reply to you. I didn't at the time because I thought it too candid. But now, with your goofy remarks on Croatia and the Ustasha, I believe you've earned it: Nemoj pizditit.
Jenny Morningstar
Babylon
USA - Tuesday March 25, 2003 at 8:59 pm
Elegant statement Ms Morningstar!And you claim you are an American?
Singling out the Nazi salute to dispute the veracity of much heavier accusations!
D. Jovanovic
USA - Tuesday March 25, 2003 at 9:06 pm
Much on the news these days is a complain how difficult is for the troops to distinguish between civilians and armed soldiers dressed in civilian clothes.
How short memory is in our armed forces? Don’t they forget the conflict in Yugoslavia. It was CIVIL war. Most likely KLA did not have uniforms. Same for Muslims and Croatians.
But Shea unabashedly claim “Army shooting at civilians”.
D. Jovanovic
USA - Tuesday March 25, 2003 at 9:54 pm
Jenny, If you are proud of "Za dom - Spremni" salute, and neglecting ustashe salute as a nazi salute You may wanna post it on this site too:JTA
Pero Peric
Canada - Tuesday March 25, 2003 at 10:07 pm
Belgium amends law to avoid war crimes lawsuit against Bush
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangrila - Tuesday March 25, 2003 at 10:10 pm
New UN war crimes court confirms Argentinian as first prosecutor
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangrila - Tuesday March 25, 2003 at 10:11 pm
Jenny, or your post will better contribute here:Textbooks
Pero Peric
Canada - Tuesday March 25, 2003 at 10:13 pm
To Jenny Morningstar:Comment on:
"Why argue with fools and the ignorant who so blissfully wallow in their self-constructed mud pits?"
Let me refer to you to my previous statement: People resolve to insults once they lose arguments. There is no need to insults. As to "ZA DOM" salute, that was used and introduced by ustasa (Croatian Nazi) in WWII. But to tell you the truth, I do not care if you need to use a "Third rock from the sun" salute, to prove yourself you are Croatian and to love Croatia. I think you should love your country of Croatia, your people. What you should not do is hide behind your patriotism to deny genocide. You should not deny fact that in 1991 there were 12.5% Serbs in Croatia and now there are less that 4%. Meanwhile number of Croatians still living in Serbia is the same. These statistics are based on Croatia census from 1991 and 2001. Do not misunderstand me: There were Serbs that committed crime, but not at all at the scale of 600 000 Serbs killed in Jasenovac (according to Simon Wiesenthal Center).
Dakic Ana
Serbia - Tuesday March 25, 2003 at 10:19 pm
To Dakic AnaYou forgot people who declared themselves as Yugoslavians - There is no one in Croatia now, as it is not allowed to declere oneself as Yugoslavian. In one of my previous posts I supplied the link to Croatian census. Please visit it!
Pero Peric
Canada - Tuesday March 25, 2003 at 10:23 pm
Pero, So, what you are saying that all Yugoslavs are now Croatians and no Serbs ever declared as Yugoslav ( I apologize may be I missed the point).
Dakic Ana
Serbia - Tuesday March 25, 2003 at 10:50 pm
Morningstar or Venus was named after the Roman goddess of love and beauty the Greek term heosphoros. In the case of the poster here, this lady from her last comment to Mr. Jovanovic clearly tells us that she represents neither love nor beauty nor any original idea of her own. Her husband, for whom she speaks, has taught her well how to be foul. Her husband who speaks through her spouts politics without principle and knowledge without character.
Walter Trkla
Kamloops BC
Canada - Tuesday March 25, 2003 at 11:13 pm
I am glad Janny that you demonstrated how vulgar you are so fast. The romance is over like on other forums.
Pera Bora
Ottawa
Canada - Tuesday March 25, 2003 at 11:43 pm
AnaYes, you are missing the point.
As I said you are missing the people who declared themselves like Yugoslavs, and “others”
I would not much rely on the census from 1991, as at that time Croatia did not have control over Krajina and I suspect that census was complete, and by the time of census many Serbs already left.
Here is the census from 1981 in Yugoslavia:
Census 1981
Pay attention to Yugoslav and “Others” (Others were mostly from mixed marriages Serbo-Croatian) Above Yugoslavia average there was extremely high number of Yugoslav nationality in Croatia, since most Serbs in Croatia declared themselves as Yugoslavs.However in 1981 there was 11,5 percent of Serbs and 8.24 % of Yugoslavs out of 4,578 million inhabitants in Croatia. Now; census rules in Croatia do not allow input of Yugoslavian nationality. So today there are around 120 thousand Serbs in Croatia and no one Yugoslavian.
Pero Peric
Canada - Tuesday March 25, 2003 at 11:47 pm
Sorry, Anna the Census link does not work, here is it in a plain text: http://www.rand.org/publications/MR/MR1188/MR1188.annex1.pdf
Pero Peric
Canada - Wednesday March 26, 2003 at 1:11 am
Hi guys, long time no see!Scanned the archives a bit. Seems at least someone missed me! Can't remember who now. Thanks anyway. Postulations that I may have been banned. Hey, may be I have been. Guess I'll find out now.
Last thing I remember trying to post was a parting shot about the dreaded FreeRepublic, and one of their supporters. It didn't "stick", so I guess some power that be in this otherwise admirable forum didn't like it. No matter.
So, Djindjic got it in the neck, although not literally as I use to fantasise that he would: dangling at the end of one of the Belgrade lamp-posts left standing by NATO, or a new superior German model built in a "deceased" one's place. With American or German rope, of course, on the presumption that such is no longer manufactured in Serbia, if indeed, anything still is.
I once tried to join CyberYugoslavia, as a CyberYugoslav citizen (only kind left, I guess). They require or ask that you recommend a new Ministry, or some item of policy: genuine democracy and all that. Tongue in cheek, I posited the creation of the "Ministry to Test the Breaking Strain of Belgrade Lamp-posts using Djindjic" (or masses equal thereto). I even went so far as to posit a new CyberYugoslav unit of lamp-post breaking strain: the "Djindjic" (Dj); as in "how many Djs will break one lamp-post?"
;-)
Yes, I know, this is a lightweight contribution. Hey, guys, give me a chance, I'm rusty as hell. Actually I had an interesting thought today about the Iraqi debacle/massacre/incursion/monstrosity/outrage, whatever. I'll post it later, after I've determined the survival qualities of this post.
Best Regards.
Dennis Revell
USA - Wednesday March 26, 2003 at 2:13 am
Ms. Morningstar claims that "Za Dom Spremni" is not a Nazi salute?!Ms. Morningstar take a look at the following website:
http://www.stormfront.org/forum/threadid18372.php
Explain to me, if you will, how come almost every self-professed Nazi on that openly Nazi website closes their post by saying "Za Dom Spremni!"
Why is it that when you put "Za Dom Spremni" into any search engine you get pages back relating to the Ustasha? Could it be because "Za Dom Spremni" is really a Nazi salute and you are simply in denial?
Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States - Wednesday March 26, 2003 at 2:29 am
Pero Peric,The 2001 census in the Republic of Croatia found 201.000 Serbs. The 1991. census found 581,663 Serbs and 106,041 Yugoslavs out of a total population of 4,784,265. It was carried out by the Federal statistics bureau so there was no need for Croatia (at the time not yet independent) to even "have control of the area" which I won't even get into.
Igor Jaramaz
Canada - Wednesday March 26, 2003 at 2:38 am
Re: Ms. Morningstar concerning Medjugorje/Surmanci pit massacre in WW II,The area your husband is from (from what I gather near Grude) is further west from the mass-grave Šurmanci pit. No, today you wouldn't find many Serbs in Grude. The last ones left or were killed in 1992. from that whole area all the way down to Popovo Polje (between Dubrovnik and Trebinje) and all the way to Stolac area where the frontline was. No Serb (except a few who were in mixed marriages but basically began declaring themselves as Croats) was left in the part of Hercegovina outside of present-day Republika Srpska.
And no Croats were killed in the Medjugorje massacre and thrown in the Šurmanci pit. OF those killed, all 614 were Serbs from the majorically-Serb villages (at least in 1941) of Prebilovci, Tasovcici and Klepci Gabela (Bulut, Brnjasic, Ekmecic, Nadazdin, Zdrakanovic, Keso, Krunic, Medan, Medic etc.). In fact they were killed expressely because of their Serb nationality and Orthodox faith and 3000 of their neighbours (some from Medjugorje itself), both Muslim and R. Catholic, took part in this monstruous orgy of killing.
And your husband told you the turh. Indeed there were songs about the event. The Croats for example sung:
Pavelicu, sta cemo od Srba -
Vez` u lance, bacaj u Šurmace...
"Pavelic, what should we do with the Serbs? Tie them in chains and throw in the Šurmanci [pit]...
The Serbs they sung another song
Oj, Šurmanci, i u vama jama,
Tu je moja seja i mama...
Oh Šurmanci and your pit, therein lie my sister and mother
Unfortunately, with the arrival of the communists, as the district of Capljina (where Prebilovci is) was majorically Croat and Catholic (some 75 % in 1948 yet the Orthodox made up 37 % in 1931) the Communists of Tito gave the local governing posts to former Ustashi. One of the Joze Jelcic, participated himself in the killings of Serbs and was to preside over the the trials of former ustashi. The Serbs of Prebilovci obviously complained, even sent petitions to Tito himself but to no avail, they were branded as nationalists, trouble makers and liars and had the wrath of the UDB secret service brought upon them all with special agents coming in from Belgrade to resolve the situation. The suffering of the Neretva valley Serbs ended in 1992 when the last villagers had to be evacuated by JNA choppers so as to save them from neo-ustashi mobs of HOS marauders wearing the same outfits, insignia and saluting the exact same way as in 1941...
Igor Jaramaz
Canada - Wednesday March 26, 2003 at 2:52 am
Walter
Yes, the original Venus was a Roman goddess. Just goes to show that even goddesses are not necessarily ladies. Yet, it seems that her descendants have retained something venereal about them.
Pera Bora
Romance is over? Hope you didn't catch anything LOL
Peter Taylor
Iraqi TV has now officially gone off air, part of the hit the command and control strategy. How long before CNN and Fox go off air in retaliation? As for the disproportionate force argument, $75 BILLION dollars and mass destruction and killing to get rid of one man... Hmmmmm... Could Paddy Ashdown please be invited to comment? How many B52s equal a tank, Paddy?
Ana
You seem like a bright girl, but are you seriously trying to reason with deity? There are lots of Croats who have much more to be proud of, but they're a different, more cosmopolitan breed that can read and write. Croatia never existed before Pavelic's NDH. If that and fascist salutes are all that SOME Croats have to be proud of, so be it... "You can take a boy out of the stable, but you can't take the stable out of the boy".
David
Australia - Wednesday March 26, 2003 at 2:52 am
Britain’s shameThe ongoing trial of the former Serbian President, Slobodan Milosevic, can only be seen as a desperate attempt to justify NATO’s criminal actions. It will not succeed. The legacy of Madeline Albright’s war will be the dishonour it has brought to the North Atlantic Treaty Organization. Kosovo was NATO’s fatal error.
Source: http://www.deltax.net/bissett/a-anniversary.htm
For all his slippery spin and “conviction” posturing the truth will eventually catch up with Blair. There is no escaping the truth.
PS Blair desperately wanted an armed land invasion of Serbia - see media articles of four years ago. It will be interesting to see if Blair rues not heeding Milosevic’s warning as he gets his wish in Iraq: ‘Be careful what you wish for’.
Peter Taylor
Herts/UK - Wednesday March 26, 2003 at 2:56 am
Welcome back Dennis.This forum is not the same without Jari. Where is he? Jariiiiiii ! Come on out.
An interesting item.....remember Muhammad Sacirbey, the former Bosnian Ambassador to the UN and also Bosnian Foreign Minister?
Wasn’t he the darling of TV during the Bosnian Civil War? So smooth, so right, so angelic,so loved by cable?
Well anyway Muhammad got a surprise when he was arrested in his New York home. He is being accused of transferring Bosnian public money into a few bank accounts of his own. This left Bosnia short of funds to pay off debts.
I wonder how cable personalities now feel about the Honorable Muhammad or is it “out of sight out of mind”. On to Saddam (the third Hitler.) I just thought of something....how many Hitlers will we have by the year 2010?
--------------------- A little item from the AP comparing Kosovo to what Iraq might do. If you would like to read the entire article, please see Serbian Unity Congress forum.
Excerpt: NATO prevailed by destroying infrastructure and government buildings in Yugoslavia - but it did little real damage to the Yugoslav military in Kosovo. END
Ah hah! Short memory. After the bombing of Kosovo from 15,000 feet General Clark, the perfumed prince, as his men liked to call him, boasted of the deterioration of the Yugo army but look now what the perfumed prince is saying.
Excerpt: He noted that the Yugoslavs had demonstrated great skill at hiding their armour, guns and infantry in towns and villages.
Robert Fisk called General Clark, alias, Perfumed Prince, a liar, when the General or the Prince whatever, boasted of the near destruction of the Yugo military.I guess Fisk feels pretty good about himself right now, cause he got that one right.
Patti? Are you bragging about Canada not taking part in the bombing of Iraq? Tsk, tsk, some will call you a flag waving nationalist. Better stop that. But, Patti....am I right? Did the PM of Canada threaten Serbian Canadians about demonstrating against the illegal bombing of Serbia?
To Barbara Mikulic who is also known as Jennie Morningstar, Tatiana, and Black Ana, and my goodness so many I cannot keep up with them.
My dear when did you learn Croatian or whatever that was you spurted out? My my, I was so impressed.
I remember you from the days when I posted an article on SUC of a Kosovo Serbian invalid woman 70 years of age..strangled, bludgeoned, and then drowned in her apartment by a few upstanding Albanians. They needed her apartment. You then posted “tit for tat.” You used that phrase quite a few times. Even when it was a babyyyyyy that was burned alive. How low can you sink? What was that thing you just said again? Who is coaching you?You did not throw away the paper you read it from did you?You might need it again.
Poor thing has no social life, just a job and a computer. Barbara did you purchase one or are you still using your employers?
Mikulic is that an Albanian name?
To All the Serbs in the former Yugoslavia, Good Night, and may God Bless and Help your dear Serbia, and Keep Out All Evil Spirits.
Kathryn Love
SJC
USA - Wednesday March 26, 2003 at 3:10 am
Please Barbara has no husband.
Kathryn Love
SJC
USA - Wednesday March 26, 2003 at 3:18 am
As far as I know, where the Jews of Yugoslavia are concerned, Za Dom Spremni is of the same significance to them as Heil Hitler. Can any Jewish survivors from Jasenovac please correct me otherwise?
David
Australia - Wednesday March 26, 2003 at 3:39 am
I do so hate getting dragged off topic by erudite commentary such as that of Venus but can anyone please advise what day the prosecution applied for an extra 12 months to present its case? I seem to have missed it. Did they get the extra 12 months?
David
Australia - Wednesday March 26, 2003 at 6:32 am
Good question, I missed the beginning of the session yesterday and the trial will not resume until, tentatively, tomorrow because Mr. Milosevic still is recovering.
An extra year for the criminal prosecution will mean certain death for Mr. Milosevic.
The media as far I can see did not mention a word about yesterday's hearing, conducted mind you, without the accused.
David, how is the mood in Australia about the Yank's war on Iraq?
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangrila - Wednesday March 26, 2003 at 6:36 am
Antiwar web site shut down
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangrila - Wednesday March 26, 2003 at 7:01 am
Gogol
Prior to the first bombs, 70% were against the carnage. Huge demos etc. Now there's been a very slight shift to "supporting our troops", including the Opposition (Labour) which was previously vitriolically against the war. Ever since the US ambassador criticised the Opposition Leader, he's been backtracking somewhat.
I only know of ONE person who is in favour of it. Everyone else I know or have spoken to is against it. Except the media and their jockeys who are of course suddenly more patriotic than the rest of us. In Spain there's over 80% opposition but that did not stop Aznar signing up. Similarly for Berlusconi in Italy. Democracy rules (NOT) so I'm obliged to vote for The Fishing Party here as the two main ones are indistinguishable from each other except in name! We'll see what the Security Council says in its extraordinary meeting to discuss the Arab League's motions.
As for Milosevic's hearing while he is sick, that's of course in the best fascist and totalitarian tradition... trials in absentia, private sessions etc, etc.
Apparently the Hague doctor wants Milosevic to jack up his pills but he doesn't want to because of the side effects. That was presented as though he's INTENTIONALLY refusing because he wants to cause delays, hence the suggestion by Mr Not so Nice to let him watch his own trial on TV, and Mr May's veiled threat that they may have to appoint the amici as his legal representatives.
On the other hand, Milosevic says he's quite happy to continue with the medication prescribed by the Belgrade doctors which is in lower doses than the Hague doctor wants him to take. It seems Mr May had to find that acceptable so the trial may resume sooner than thought.
It remains to be seen if Milosevic makes it to the point where he begins his self defence phase. My view is that it's not very likely as that will cause HUGE problems, too huge to be ignored even by the deaf, blind and mute media.
I don't expect that they will risk it, so it may just be that some of his pills get mixed up, and guess what, with his "genetic disposition" to suicide, it will all be easily explained in the sense that he just could not bear the burden of his guilt and his inevitable conviction.
David
Australia - Wednesday March 26, 2003 at 7:56 am
GogolYea. Potassium chloride on his "Freedom" Fries, rather than sodium chloride.
Easy mistake, anyone could make. >Ta, Kathryn.
Dennis Revell
USA - Wednesday March 26, 2003 at 7:58 am
Oops. Meant David; not Gogol!;-)
Dennis Revell
USA - Wednesday March 26, 2003 at 8:39 am
Igor, are you disputing census from 1981?There was another census in Croatia in 1996, where I found that there was around 120 thousands Serbs in Croatia. I did not read census from 2001 I do not dispute your numbers, however census from 1991 as I already post, by that time many Serbs already left etc.
As for Yugoslavs, I've been told something in these lines: "In this census, you cannot declare yourself as Yugoslav" - So if you want to beleive in 1991 census - be it I said enough.
Pero Peric
Canada - Wednesday March 26, 2003 at 9:37 am
David,I guess I do not understand how can anybody, from any nation, identify its own nationality trough hate of the other. It seems to me that only way Croatians can prove themselves that they are patriots is trough hate of Serbs. Once you take away Serbs from the picture, how and trough what means can they express their Croatianes and if they can find anything else, why can’t they exploit those qualities and stop warring about Serbs. I hope that this makes any sence.
Dakic Ana
Serbia - Wednesday March 26, 2003 at 9:52 am
I understand that the American embassy in Athens has been partly burned by anti war protestors. This was reported by students on midterm break on their arrival home. Is this true anyone?The theme of news reports on TV USA and Canada “Humanitarian Relief” “Rebellion in Basra” “Iraqi Bomb own people in Baghdad” “Coalition Forces” “Iraqis Shoot Americans while surrendering” . Comments from around the world please on what you are seeing on TV?
HOW DO WE GET RID OF KOFI ANNAN? WHAT AN UNCLE TOM.
Walter Trkla
Kamloops BC
Canada - Wednesday March 26, 2003 at 11:02 am
Playwright Harold Pinter presents a powerful case in opposition to NATO bombardment of Serbia By Ann Talbot 7 May 1999Playwright Harold Pinter, an outspoken opponent of NATO's war against Serbia, presented a coherent and well-argued case opposing the military action on BBC 2 television last Tuesday evening. Using news footage and interviews specially recorded for the programme, Pinter showed how the media are being manipulated, and that the humanitarian justification for the war is false.
In a powerful condemnation of the war, Pinter described the NATO onslaught against Serbia as "a bandit action, committed with no serious consideration of the consequences, ill-judged, ill-thought, miscalculated, an act of deplorable machismo".
Pinter was shown questioning British Defence Minister George Robertson at a news conference. The playwright, citing the Geneva Convention outlawing military attacks on civilian targets, demanded to know how the bombing of a Serbian TV station could be described as anything other than murder. "Mr. Pinter has obviously got a new occupation now but I know his views," was the arrogant reply from Robertson. He justified the bombing by claiming that such targets were the "brains behind the brutality", and "part and parcel of the apparatus that is driving ethnic genocide".
Such claims--which have been used repeatedly to justify whatever horrors NATO perpetrates--were challenged in the programme. Former Labour Foreign Secretary Dennis Healey rejected the idea that the expulsion of the Kosovar Albanians was the same as genocide. He pointed out that NATO's actions were contrary to the United Nations charter, which Britain had signed. NATO was bombing a fellow UN member, without UN authority.
Jake Lynch of Sky News explained how the news media are being manipulated to support the aggressive war drive. When NATO bombed a refugee convoy there was a delay of several days before the cockpit video, normally shown at the next daily press conference, was released to the media. This was to enable NATO to cause the maximum confusion, he explained. First NATO claimed there had been two separate incidents. The next day this was amended to one incident, and then later a US Brigadier General cited the figure of two again.
Lynch said this was a graphic exercise in news management. When the video was eventually shown, an audible murmur went round the press conference--"that's a tractor". Lynch pointed out that if it had been shown straight away, without the lavishly composed graphics, the "PR impact would have been much more negative for NATO". Reporters were sent to Brussels to report the war, not to help NATO, yet there was a slippage in journalistic technique. NATO "confirms" things have happened; Belgrade only ever "claims" things.
Pinter gave a detailed account of the bombing of the Serbian television station. He showed the letter in which NATO spokesman Jamie Shea had assured the International Federation of Journalists only days before the bombing that the television station would not be attacked. Philip Knightley, author of The First Casualty--History of Propaganda, explained why the TV station was targeted: "NATO didn't want it revealed that it had bombed a civilian convoy and left to itself would never have revealed it until the war was over. But they were forced to admit to the bombing of the civilian convoy because Serbian TV said that it had happened, then took Western reporters in a bus to show them the results of it."
NATO had rightly described the murder of an anti-Milosevic journalist as a brutal act of repression, Pinter said, yet they have never expressed any regret for the killing of those people who were told they were safe at the TV station. "Both are ugly murders of human beings who propagate words or images that somebody else doesn't like."
Turning to the refugee crisis Pinter showed that there is a direct correlation between the number of refugees and the amount of popular support for NATO bombing. He derided the talk of moral authority, demanding to know "who bestowed it on the NATO countries?... Bombs and power--that's your moral authority." The moral position of the US was highly ambiguous, he went on. "When human rights groups discovered US jets used by the Turkish airforce to bomb Kurdish villages within its own territory the Clinton administration found ways to evade laws requiring suspension of arms deliveries. 1.4 million Kurds fled Turkish repression from 1990 to 1994. Yet Turkey is invited to the top of the table at NATO's birthday party."
The US denied that genocide was taking place in Rwanda--with 800,000 dead--because it was not in the interests of the United States to be part of a UN intervention force. But it calls the Serbian ethnic cleansing "genocide" because it was politically expedient to do so, he continued. He also made clear his disgust for Prime Minister Tony Blair: "Under the rhetoric, Blair's real character has become clear. There's nothing like a missile, there's nothing like power, it was really worth waiting for!"
Pinter revealed the US record of complicity with ethnic cleansing in the former Yugoslavia. The greatest single act of displacement and ethnic cleansing in the entire Yugoslav war was that of 200,000 Serbs from Croatia in 1995. He showed an extract from an interview with the then US Secretary of State, Warren Christopher, who said of this episode, "It always had the prospect of simplifying matters." Pinter explained that the "operation was carried out by officers trained by NPRI, an organisation of US army veteran commanders and was armed with a great deal of US weaponry, in an attack of which the US had full knowledge." Its purpose was "creating convenient ethnically-pure maps without committing US ground forces."
In his memoirs, US Ambassador Holbrook admits to encouraging Croatian assaults on the Serbs, telling the Croatians to hurry up before the Serbs regroup, and then merely rebuking the Croatian leader, Franjo Tudjman, during their cosy chats. Madeline Albright, then US ambassador to the UN, timed the release of aerial photos of mass graves of Muslims killed by Serbs at Srebrenica for the same day as the Croats were expelling the Serbs, in order to divert the world media's attention. These photos had been taken weeks before by a US spy satellite but were held back in order to mask one atrocity with another.
Pinter also showed the cynical way in which the US government deals with the UN. In 1995 the bombing of the Bosnian Serbs needed direct authority from the UN, but Secretary General Boutros Boutros Gali was unwilling to grant it. So Madeline Albright by-passed the secretary general, getting permission from his deputy Kofi Annan, while Boutros Boutros Gali could not be contacted as he was on a commercial flight. Kofi Annan effectively secured himself the secretary general's job that day, Pinter declared. Now, the US did not even bother to contact the UN.
The US had exacerbated the situation in Kosovo, Pinter argued. He pointed out that over the course of 10 years, before the West had begun negotiating with the hard line KLA and despite the fact that war was often raging in other parts of former Yugoslavia, Kosovo saw tension but little bloodshed. In fact, a comparable number of people were killed there as in Northern Ireland. However, once the KLA began their uprising 2,000 died in one year of violence.
Mark Almond of Oxford University, and a writer on Balkan history, was interviewed about the Rambouillet talks. "In a little-noticed annexe to the agreement, NATO insisted that its forces should be allowed to have freedom of movement over the whole of Yugoslavia, not just Kosovo. There was no real constraint over what sort of forces there would be, and, to a great extent, what their activities would be." Pinter explained what this meant: whether "you are a dictator, the prime minister of a democratic country, or even Mrs. Thatcher, and your sovereign territory is going to be occupied, you might as well resist or your time in power is over."
Almond said there was a cynical aspect to the build-up of the crisis, with "deliberate provocation of reprisals by the KLA". He went on, "This aspect has been neglected in the press. It wasn't simply unprovoked and meaningless racial violence on the part of the Serbs--though we've seen quite a lot of that too--but a complex struggle for power over Kosovo, in which the loss of lives of ordinary Kosovo Albanians and others were really treated as pawns."
Showing video footage of crowds on a bridge over the Danube inside Serbia, Pinter commented, "Only two years ago hundreds of thousands of young people were out on the streets against Milosevic. Our blundering policy of bombing now finds them linking hands on bridges waiting to be hit." He warned that if ground troops were sent in, civilian casualties would mount and Kosovo would be made a wasteland. "By the time NATO land forces will have finished their work there will be nothing left to liberate". This was the "crazed logic of escalation," he said.
Pinter brought together academics, politicians and relief workers in condemning the war against Serbia. The programme showed that opposition to it runs deep
Dakic Ana
Serbia - Wednesday March 26, 2003 at 5:34 pm
The ICTY announced:
Please be informed that the proceedings in the Milosevic case are cancelled for the rest of the week due to the ill health of the accused. Proceedings will resume on Monday 31 March 2003 at 9.00a.m. in Courtroom I.
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangrila - Wednesday March 26, 2003 at 6:10 pm
Kofi Anan is an Uncle Tom? That's a mighty kind comment and a massive understatement, Walter. He's a rotten spineless corrupt jellyback. How dare he talk of humanitarian relief without mentioning stopping the war and the fact that it has NOT got UN approval and is therefore illegal! Where is the outrage that a UN member has been attacked by another UN member without UN authority. Where is his plan of action to take corrective measures? Nowhere! He hasn't received those instructions from his white masters. What can one expect from a deputy of Bhoutros Gali who behind the back of his own boss authorised attacks in Bosnia. He sure earns his 30 pieces of silver. Like Mesic in former YU, Anan is playing a similar role in the UN and will be the last Secretary General of the UN.The US administration has now pretty much killed off the UN. If there is no legal international framework it can now do as it likes. I'm sure we can expect more YU and Iraq type attacks and more and more ICTYs for whoever it dislikes or refuses to kiss its ass. And it will have the "international coalition support" of such international luminaries as Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Singapore, Taiwan, South Korea, Guam, Albania, Kosovo, etc, etc to legitimise its actions. Just about every colony whose support it's managed to either buy for a handful of rice or bludgeon into eating a handful of rice a day.
Shame, shame, shame on Anan. He should be tried by the ICC for treason against the UN and humanity.
David
Australia - Wednesday March 26, 2003 at 7:15 pm
Good show, mate!
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangrila - Wednesday March 26, 2003 at 7:40 pm
Please, Please, Please...... all of you.... in the name of humanity...... do not practice, nor preach the foolishness of 'salt on old wounds'..... if you do...you will only be repeating the lines of the past...... one of ante pavelic's famous slogans ...for all croat fascists was 'Na ljutu ranu, ljutu travu'...... ..................do not follow these incoherent ways...... if you do, you lower yourselves to such sickening standards....
ivan kokotovic
australia - Wednesday March 26, 2003 at 8:03 pm
Ivan,We can and will forgive but do not except from us to forget. Serbs remember for a long time.History has tendency to repeat itself if we do forget. The fact that we remember does not mean we hate Croatians (just like we do not hate Tuirks for 600 yerars of janissary). In remembering those who died we are honoring them. As a Serb I forgive Croatians for any harm they did to us. Question is can you forgive yourself?
Dakic Ana
Serbia - Wednesday March 26, 2003 at 8:08 pm
the other thing.....which i might like to inform you of......... ustasa supporters (of whom, most of croat emigres post wwII were/ and a community which i grew up in) have never denied that there were massacres of serbs and jews...... it is a central theme of such support, that one must not look weaker than one's adversary, thus there was as much bravado and machismo in these diaspora.......a boasting of their achievemants in establishing a free state...only to be betrayed by the UK and US at the end of it all...... (don't ask me to explain the logic, i am totally disillusioned with it) ................................................ however...there is one important aspect of croatian denial of the past which has been misrepresented perhaps.................... that is that...many croats were actually communist yugoslavs.....not least for the fact that dalmacija was handed over to the italians...(who themselves carried out brutal suppression of croats in those regions).....thus...many croats who supported NDH, realised that to do so would mean having to leave their way of life and traditions.......they were more willing to fight for the side opposing the italians....that being the communists (being lead afterall by a croat)...................... post war.....many of the ustasa croats (those who weren't eradicated, or who fled) hid behind the veil of communism...refusing the believe their dream of independence was over........ in western nations....these communities were open to their dislike of tito's regime........... the thing is......somewhere in the middle there....perhaps circa late 1960s.....these two strands of croat politics melded.......and we see former fervent communists such as tudjman....joining with outright fascists......., in a bid for more croat autonomy........ the communist croats didn't feel they had any need to feel guilty for the croat atrocities of wwII....., whereas the ustasa croats maintained they only did what they had to for independence...thus a relationship of convenience was formed...... there were the ultra-nationalists of the HSP (stranka prava/ustasa)..and the more "democratic" socialists, who were in fact nationalists...(tudjman..and to a lesser extent mesic)........................ from this we have....not a total denial of the bloody recent past....., this recent croatian state...although not covering itself with democratic glory...was not formed to destroy serbia (and i make the point that no new nation can be formed without a massive under-current of nationalism, it is a necessity) however croats do have a belief that croats have been misrepresented in western media throughout tito's yugoslavia; feeling wronged in other words. in yugoslavia i am not so sure the way croats acted exactly.....just from the major politic and student movements...i beleive that the undercurrent of ustasa remained.....although it was hijacked by popular socialist student and intelectual movements.., most notably in the 1970s............................................ lastly......it is relevant to post wwII issues here.....merely for the reason that it shows just how much croats and serbs don't know about each other and each others history............................ if all were a bit more sensitive to each other's idealogies there wouldn't be so much anger about this current debate..... and we wouldn't get posts on here from certain people, trying to discredit an entire nation, for their own personal satisfaction, and out of some primal need to expose their enemies, as they themselves see them........................ ignorance is the scourge of this world......do not attempt to convey yours upon others!!!!
ivan kokotovic
australia - Wednesday March 26, 2003 at 8:13 pm
...and to J.P from Wisc..... the USA is ignorant...... it is the scourge of the world............ a wide range and and political spectrum of history books are a valuable source of information...... US lead media organisation bias is not
ivan kokotovic
australia - Wednesday March 26, 2003 at 8:23 pm
Yes Ivan I would agree with you if people on this post are speaking out of hate. If it is hate imagine what a force they would be if they channelled that energy into UNDERSTANDING and RECONCILIATION.If on the other hand they are just offering information, as I think most are, the salt should not hurt.Most children are not guilty for the sins of the fathers.
Children learn racism on their mother and father’s knee. You are right the cycle needs to be broken otherwise it will never end. Before that can happen national interests be they Croat, Serb, Muslim or American must come second to JUSTICE.
For me personally I am sickened by what is being done to Iraq as I was sickened by what was done to Yugoslavia. What has happened to the Serbian people and to many Croats and Muslims in Bosnia and Iraq is not Justice it is bloody well murder. Those who are responsible should be punished. How do you apportion responsibility if you don’t talk about it??? Does self-defence justify killing unarmed civilians? Not in Canadian law and yet Canada has aided and abetted the break-up of Yugoslavia and all those things that followed. Are we guilty? You damn right we are.
David that was a great post. Lets hope that Annan’s days are numberd.
Walter Trkla
Kamloops BC
Canada - Wednesday March 26, 2003 at 8:27 pm
This maybe applicable to the Iraq situation right now. But doe anyone hear?Did the NATO intervention bring Milosevic's rule to the end? No, because it was only one year later that Serbia managed to overthrow the dictator's regime without outward assistance and trace its own way towards future. Bombs which fell on Serbian cities, bridges and hospitals will never be considered by its people as a contribution to their freedom. Quite on the contrary, they will remain as a painful reminder that friendly assistance and democracy can never arrive on the wings of bomber aircraft and cruise missiles.
D. Jovanovic
USA - Wednesday March 26, 2003 at 10:13 pm
All This Iraqi adventure is "led" by the ambition of a sick and ignorant man who is manipulated by the team of advisors who clearly are getting a % cut for each smart bomb dropped ($60.000 a pop and each tomahawk missile fired 550.000 a pop........... - So with a dunce like that as CiC the administration is mainly busy looking for defenseless locations, creating enemies and working on excuses, twisting arms of the junior "partners" and building coalitions............and FREE media is doing the cover up as a patriotic duty!.......... and the rest of the world is taking all that crap relatively quietly ........... and i have no idea for how long.........1 thing i know for sure - sooner or later they will miscalculate while pickin a victim and they will fill find quite a bit of misery .............. and The whining of all whinings will descend onto this land ............
vytas abrutis
phila,PA
USA - Wednesday March 26, 2003 at 10:15 pm
Very GOOD Post ! - IVANE!
vytas abrutis
phila,PA
USA - Wednesday March 26, 2003 at 10:43 pm
There were message boards on CNN starting 5 years ago on any hot subject in the world the most popular and the longest lasting was "kosovo" board .. - It started with a clear majority supporting "The humanitarian action"......... I saw many many converts there - i was 1 of them ( took me three days of watching "poor Albanians" and some reading.............For a while towards the end CNN clearly had their staff or somebody from Fort Brag defending the intervention ......... it was getting so miserably obvious who the real perpetrators are that one day they just closed the f...n' thing for good and all the other boards too........
vytas abrutis
phila
USA - Thursday March 27, 2003 at 12:37 am
Jari, you kept this board going from the beginning. I remember you saying it was sad for you to post for a third time in a row.Since then World has changed a little. Do not give up.
Pero Peric
Canada - Thursday March 27, 2003 at 3:25 am
IvanMost sober minded folk distinguish between the Croatian people and the Croatian fascist Ustasa. On the basis of your posts, you seem to fall in the former category. I have the view that it is indeed a great achievement that you as a human being have been able to step out of the Ustasa community upbringing, and I genuinely support and applaud the general thrust of what you have said. You also mention the following in your post:
"ustasa supporters (of whom, most of croat emigres post wwII were/ and a community which i grew up in) have never denied that there were massacres of serbs and jews...... it is a central theme of such support, that one must not look weaker than one's adversary, thus there was as much bravado and machismo in these diaspora.......a boasting of their achievemants in establishing a free state..."
Such bravado and machismo regarding one's own achievements, although moot by civilised standards, prseumably represents a salt in the wound approach, particularly for people like Ana who do seem to be forgiving or are inclined to forgive and maybe even eventually forget. But they may find it difficult to remain forgiving in the face of such brazen bravado, particularly if their family was among the victims?
If the slogan Za Dom Spremni has been resuscitated in Croatia, together with the Ustasa salute and numerous Ustasa insignia, then that must clearly be a provocation to the Serbs to forget about being forgiving. To be sure, the same insignia etc may be of ancient Croatian heritage much preceding the Pavelic NDH, but by the same token the Swastika, I believe a symbol of plenty and fertility, is also much much older than Hitler's Nazis. Still, one can readily assume that the mere sight of the Swastika chills the blood of every Jew on this planet. Similarly for the Serbs when they hear the Ustasa salute. The difference is that the Germans got rid of the Swastika, they didn't revive it on reunification.
You also mention that " croats do have a belief that croats have been misrepresented in western media throughout tito's yugoslavia; feeling wronged in other words". In fact, the Croat emigres who were Ustasa oriented did themselves (and regular Croats in the diaspora) a huge disservice and required little help from Tito's communists. Until anti-racial discrimination laws were introduced in Australia examples abound of signs in their clubs to the effect that dogs and Serbs were not allowed entry. That's more salt in the wound.
From what I have managed to see, and that is admittedly not entirely comprehensive due to language restrictions, the rebirth of fascist insignia, or insignia associated with the fascist Ustasa(and to an extent Chetnik ones too), is the poison of today's generations of Croats and Serbs. The national emblems and slogans of each have been so compromised in the eyes of the other that an exposition of pride in them automatically triggers opposition and conflict. The concept of Yugoslavia was meant to fix that, but that got hijacked and wrecked by the Great Powers of today's "democracies" who helped finance and revive nationalism in YU in order to break it up on a divide and rule basis.
The Serb and Croat people (along with the others in former YU) are forced, yet again, to pay the price of foreign interests. It's time they both woke up to themselves.
David
Australia - Thursday March 27, 2003 at 5:40 am
"Za Dom" is not a Nazi salute as you so hopelessly and stupidly interpret it. It is performed with the arm outstretched and then brought into the body - For God, country and individual and is an expression of pride in Croatia and unity of the Croatian people.Thks for illuminating this situation so perfectly....Ms. Moringstar.
It is people like you who help keep "Oue Lovely Homeland" what it is today. :)
AP V
NY
NY - Thursday March 27, 2003 at 6:33 am
"the communist croats didn't feel they had any need to feel guilty for the croat atrocities of wwII....., whereas the ustasa croats maintained they only did what they had to for independence...thus a relationship of convenience was formed....."Enlighten me, does this means that it is ok to kill and commit genocide to achieve goal? I love your "Catholic" attitude toward this subject. Sure ustasa committed crimes, but that is Serbian fault, but Serbs should repent for not forgetting?!?
PS. The reason thet "the communist croats didn't feel they had any need to feel guilty for the croat atrocities of wwII.....," is because they did something about it. They stood with Serbs and fought back ustasa.
Dakic Ana
Serbia - Thursday March 27, 2003 at 8:34 am
Mr. Kokotovic,Perhaps I do not understand your English. This paragraph below, with many dots inserted in the text is rather unclear.
“................... from this we have....not a total denial of the bloody recent past....., this recent croatian state...although not covering itself with democratic glory...was not formed to destroy serbia (and i make the point that no new nation can be formed without a massive under-current of nationalism, it is a necessity) however croats do have a belief that croats have been misrepresented in western media throughout tito's yugoslavia; feeling wronged in other words. in yugoslavia i am not so sure the way croats acted exactly.....just from the major politic and student movements...i beleive that the undercurrent of ustasa remained.....although it was hijacked by popular socialist student and intelectual movements.., most notably in the 1970s............................................ lastly......it is relevant to post wwII issues here.....merely for the reason that it shows just how much croats and serbs don't know about each other and each others history.................."
For instance”….from this we have…not a total denial of the bloody recent past…” What does it mean? 70,000 killed in Jasenovac rather than 600,000?
Or the last sentence: “Croats and Serbs don’t know about each other and each others history……”
This can not be true. My grandfother was born in Lika, my mother went to highschools in Zagreb, Vinkovci and Osijek. All my relatives on my mothr’e side grew up in Croatia. In 1941 they were killed. Or at least some 30 of them. Do you claim that they were ignorant about Croatian history and Croatian people?
Please, I would prefer a succinct and rational explanation and not rambling.
Only then, some rational forgiveness may be forth coming.
D. Jovanovic
USA - Thursday March 27, 2003 at 8:42 am
D. JovanovicIt strikes me you've been listening to that now World reviled US mainstream media too much. Quite rightly World reviled too.
As far as I recall Milosevic was democratically elected 3 times, last time as President of Yugoslavia. Neither the US nor any other wonderful denizen of Western "democracy" made any legal or other objection or complaint agbout these elections at the time, not that, as Florida showed, the US is any kind of expert in free and fair elections, or, one has to wonder, free and fair anything.
Yet you describe Milosevic as a dictator. I guess the two words would just tend to trip of the tongue if the only source of your information was the mainstream media, or Ruderless Feign.
As a matter of fact, Milosevic would also have won a fourth election, but for the $100,000,000 of CIA money (US taspayers' money, really) ferried to the Yugoslav "opposition" over the border in suitcases.
It appears to me that the word "dictator" is becoming the code-word for any country's leader who is reluctant to to everything the US tells him to. That's not what my dictionary says, but then I don't have the CIA code book to give me the correct meaning.
Dennis Revell
USA - Thursday March 27, 2003 at 10:30 am
Cheyenne called Custer ‘Son of the Morning Star”. When he was killed two Cheyenne women punctured his ear drums so that he would listen better in the afterlife since he did not listen in the life that he just lost. Maybe our Morningstar needs to know that most people tell small lies but when they are grossly inaccurate others will call them to task
Walter Trkla
Kamloops BC
Canada - Thursday March 27, 2003 at 11:09 am
I would like to point out that Milosevic was not a dictator. What? According to whom? According to me:) and Veton Surroi, an Albanian from Kosovo and one of Milosevic’s fieriest political opponent.“[…] Relations between the Albanian majority and the Serb minority in Kosovo depend on the fundamental issue of status, or relations between Kosovo and Serbia. […] the conflict between Kosovo and Serbia is a structural one, no matter who is in power in Belgrade. Serbian politics of the past decade reflected a nationalist consensus in which the then opposition participated fully. Milosevic was not a dictator, but a consensual autocrat, someone whose iron fist was accorded to him by the will of the majority of the people of Serbia. […]”
Couldn't we say that GW is not a dictator, but a consensual autocrat, someone whose iron fist was accorded to him by the will of the majority of the people of the US.:)
The National Endowment for Democracy (and propaganda:)) (NED) presented its annual Democracy Award for year 2000 to Veton Surroi, the editor and publisher of Koha Ditore, the most widely read Albanian language daily in Kosovo.
Dusom Sarajlija
USA - Thursday March 27, 2003 at 11:12 am
Michael Moore speaks out about his Oscar night. See the Los Angeles Times, “I’d Like to Thank the Vatican...”You can get his website at Michael Moore.Com. His website gets up to 20 million hits a day, more than the White House.
His “Stupid White Men” still on No. 1 on bestseller for 53 weeks. “Bowling for Columbine” broke all box office records for a documentary.
He received a couple of awards before the Oscar and gave the same speech.
The night of the Oscar the booing started immediately from where the stage hands were. The balcony started booing the booers.No one in the audience in front booed. The orchestra had to stop the chaos and later some of the orchestra people apologized to him.
You will find this article very interesting. I think he was set up when the Republicans knew he had previously given the speech they were ready for him with plants.
Jennie Morningstar real name Barbara
I have known this woman, who is probably about 60 years of age, through the forums, Serbian Unity and the Serbian Cafe. I have studied each of her posts, and they were many.
I have tried to warn you to ignore her. You fall right into her trap when you respond to her garbage.
She knows absolutely nothing about the Balkan wars. Her posts have always been trite and done only to provoke.
Why would a Croat say, the Bosnian Muslims suffered more than the Croats and Serbs in the Bosnian Civil war? Doesn’t that ring a bell? Not too long ago she defended their “bravely fought war for independence in Bosnia and they should celebrate.”
Her last post be it disgusting had more information in it than Barbara has ever submitted on the other forums.
She receives the information when she needs it. I doubt that she is married. Her story changes, once he is a Croat, and next she is a Croat.
I have never in my life met an Albanian or a Muslim. I have met Croats and I like them. Do not let this woman who is disliked by many people upset the forum. This is what she wants. Pit the Serbs against the Croats.
Kathryn Love
SJC
USA - Thursday March 27, 2003 at 11:13 am
Correction: Veton Surroi http://www.dgap.org/english/tip/tip0102/surroi.html
Dusom Sarajlija
USA - Thursday March 27, 2003 at 1:00 pm
Dusom SarajlijaYou can't be serious. Well, I guess for purposes of argument, I have to assume you are. In that case you are astonishingly uninformed. Hazarding a guess, perhaps your current residency in the USA may partly explain that. I also currently reside in the US, but along with most other posters here do take some care to self-inform from a wide variety of sources.
Any sentence that contains the word "democracy at least TWICE including in the phrase: "National Endowment for Democracy" is in almost all cases a tautology; unless also accompanied by the word: DESTROYS:-
http://members.aol.com/superogue/ned.htm
A quote from this:-
" Allen Weinstein, who helped draft the legislation establishing NED, was quite candid when he said in 1991: "A lot of what we do today was done covertly 25 years ago by the CIA." In effect, the CIA has been laundering money through NED. "
I know this is just one web-site, and there's a lot of junk out there, but I have little doubt that a "Google" on NED, or it's fuller form, or any part of Weinstein's quote above will return a whole host of deprecatory pages on that wholly unwholesome US Government paid-for "Non" Govermental Organisation.
The NED was created as a fake and "more respectable" front (but not really more respectable: just nice words) to do many of the unpleasant and dark things overtly, such as undermining foreign Governments, that the CIA used to get flak for when it was discovered (occasionally, though probably not often enough), when it was discovered that the CIA was doing those exact same things covertly.
The link you give to Surroi doesn't work. If Mr. Surroi's credentials are as impressive as Albanian-American Terrorist-In-Chief Joe DioGuardi's, however, and if you find the latter as impressive as the former, then you're probably wasting your time trying to convince me by anything that Mr. Surroi has to say.
Greater Serbia? Nonsense. KosovO was always about Greater Albania, as the opening graphic to DioGuardi's web-site hardly tries to conceal:-
http://www.aacl.com/graphics/aacl.gif
Watch out Greece and Southern Montenegro! we already know how Macedonia's been screwed by extremist Albanians (with the help of the CIA's favourite "plausible deniability" partner, MPRI), and the shinnanegans in southern Serbia.
If KosovO-Albanians chose not to vote, whether by choice, or co-erced not to by other more nationalistic extremist Albanians, that was their problem. The same if they chose not to participate and benefit from Yugoslav-state provided facilities by boycotting them. I understand they were more reluctant to boycott Yugoslav-state provide pensions and other monetary benefits; and so did take advantage of the fact that KosovO was probably the most subsidised region of Yugoslavia.
A useful site on "When KosovO was not famous" is:-
http://members.tripod.com/~sarant_2/ksm.html
Many mainstream articles here are less than flattering about extremist KosovO Albanian behaviour before KosovO actually did become famous. My, how their tune changed when it did, to slaveringly fit in with the wishes of their political masters.
Finally, relating the "National Endowment for Democracy" to actual democracy is about as accurate as relating "Radio Free Europe" to actual free speech.
Dennis Revell
USA - Thursday March 27, 2003 at 1:03 pm
Oops. Left italics turned on.
Dennis Revell
USA - Thursday March 27, 2003 at 1:05 pm
Darn it. Turn off will you, darned italics.Test
Dennis Revell
USA - Thursday March 27, 2003 at 1:47 pm
Mr. Denis Revel,My apologies. I borrowed this quote mostly because it p[ertains to the current situation in Iraq.
These were not my words or thoughts. I have no first hand opinion about Milosevic. I have not lived there for 50 years. All I know that many of my friends did not like him mostly because he represented the remnants of communism. But in my mind the court in Hague is a charade.
D. Jovanovic
USA - Thursday March 27, 2003 at 1:56 pm
Test
D a
S- Thursday March 27, 2003 at 5:40 pm
Dennis Revell,I appreciate your comment that’s been very critical of my post, …, and guess what? I agree 100% with your critique of National Endowment for Democracy and the whole situation with cangaroo court in the Hague.
My post was supposed to be a spoof about Milosevic’s enemies, his opposition (Surroi), and NED.
Was it my sense for humor that betrayed me today, or I just jump-started you before you could have thought out what I tried to say, I don’t know. I’ll let others judge my post. After all, I might have screwed up. But I’ve got a good laugh out of this.
I haven’t noticed any of your previous postings. I really commend you for this one. If you just joined the forum, you are more then welcome. Otherwise, welcome back.
I used to post as D S USA, but on advice from Kathryn who I respect a lot, I now post under Dusom Sarajlija.
By the way, you've missed correction for Surroi's link. It's there, in my next post.
Dusom Sarajlija
USA- Thursday March 27, 2003 at 6:24 pm
Maybe Milosevic was a dictator, maybe he wasn't. Maybe he rigged the elections, maybe he didn't. The point is that when it comes to the Albanians complaining about Milosevic, let it be clearly said that HAD THEY WANTED TO GET RID OF MILOSEVIC THEY COULD HAVE JOINED THE SERB OPPOSITION AND THE VOTES AGAINST MILOSEVIC WOULD HAVE BEEN IN NO DOUBT!They refused to vote against Milosevic because they had a different agenda. To them, it didn't matter whether Mother Theresa was in power in Belgrade, as long as their secession project was on target. And they had the support of the blessed Bob Dole and Clinton and whoever else money could buy, including the sexually deprived Madeline Allbright who was receiving remedial therapy from Thaci. The project was hatched and started LONG before Milosevic even heard of what was going on in Kosovo. Those who doubt this, check the US media in the 70s and 80s BEFORE Milosevic came to prominence.
The fact that the Federal sphere was dominated by Slovene and Croat politicians (check the Who's Who in YU for the same period) only served to quiet the Serb communist politicians like Stambolic who pretended nothing was going on in order to stay in power. The fact that Croat and Slovene politicians were busy supporting the Albanians in Kosovo, prior to Milosevic, only reveals that the strategy of breaking up YU was started BEFORE Milosevic.
The most fervent nationalists were people like Draskovic who threatened to "cut off the hand" of any Serb who shook hands with an Albanian. Then he suddenly became a dove and a darling of the US, no doubt influenced by donations from NED and other sources in order to remove Milosevic and rise to power himself. Milosevic was a problem, he clearly saw the retention of YU as the best option for the Serbs and was determined to preserve it as his speech in Gazemestan reveals, EXACTLY the opposite of what the prosecution says it reveals!
It's only an uneducated guess, but it seems to me that when Milosevic realised that the "West" was indeed determined to break up YU, he may have been realistic enough to know that when the Germans and the Vatican and the US recognised the breakaway republics, YU was gone and the best that could be achieved was some compromise like Dayton. But when the West also wanted to break Serbia up, along the same lines as Tito broke it up by severing Kosovo, it seems he drew the line. And we all know what happens when a two bit politician from a two bit country stands in the way of global objectives.
Milosevic could either take their money and run or stay and fight. I think he is smart enough to know that after so many years his term in office and his power was coming to an end and maybe he was indeed mad to stay and fight as he could not possibly "steal" enough money from the YU treasury as he would have got to run off to the Riviera with his family.
Perhaps Western morality still hasn't cottoned on to the concept that the mighty greenback does not make the world go round for some people. And then again, perhaps the above possible scenario is just plainly wrong. When it comes to politicians, you can never be sure.
David
Australia- Thursday March 27, 2003 at 6:56 pm
testing take off
Kathryn Love
Sjc
USA- Thursday March 27, 2003 at 7:02 pm
d
- Thursday March 27, 2003 at 7:24 pm
God save us from the media, please! Fox has taken to calling the Iraqi fighters as "terrorists". CNN and BBC are calling the "fighters loyal to Saddam". Note how they are not Iraqi fighters or soldiers or whatever. Note how they are distiguished from the "ordinary Iraqi people".How long must we tolerate this brainwashing by the media and their blind obedience to the US and British administrations in the name of "patriotism".
Shades of Kosovo? You bet! The same propaganda, the same cliches, the same humanitarian crisis and concerns, the same aggressors and "belligerents", the same switching off of electricty, the same switching off of water supplies, the same destruction of infrastructure, etc, etc.
All for the benefit of the suffering Iraqi people. One thing is certain, no matter what a bastard Saddam may be, the Iraqi people can't survive without water. Switch the power and water supply back on, George and Tony, before you kill any more Iraqis for their own good.
David
Australia- Thursday March 27, 2003 at 8:04 pm
D. JovanovicVery fair points. Indeed your post that irked me could equally well be interpreted as a spoof, just as you say.
I think I must have programmed myself (from a not completely uninformed position, I hasten to add) to "ignite" when I see things , that at least on the face of it, seem to extol organisations like NED as actually having anything to do with democracy, and being anything other than arms of self-centered US foreign policy.
;-)
Same thing happens to me when it appears people are trying to seriously relate George Soros and his "Open" Society Institutes to human rights and free speech. They're really only interested in the free speech as understood by most Americans: The "God" & Ashcroft (can anyone tell the difference?) given right to uncritically repeat what CNN and Fox tells them:-
== George Soros ==
Billionaire (currency speculator - broke the bank of England, Portugal, Malaysia, and apparently wherever the hell he wants to)
Humanitarian
Philanthropist
Leading Luminary of the Helsinki Human Rights Groups
b Total Bastard
Good spoof, Dusom, you got me fair and square.
;-)
_________________
Great posts David, all that blood pooling at the top of your head certainly hasn't affected your critical thinking abilities.
On the other hand, from your geographical point of view the tendency of the blood to pool in the feet of Bush and Blair and many in the Northern hemisphere, causing oxygen deprivation of the brain might explain a lot.
;-)
Silly me, what am I saying; you've got John Howard. Ughhhhhhhh. ;-)
As you intimate, who the hell really knows what's going on in this all smoke'n'mirrors World of "ours"?
Vive la France!
Dennis Revell
USA- Thursday March 27, 2003 at 8:52 pm
Pero Peric,I am not disputing the 1981 census, I don't even know what this whole discussion is about? I just have the information available to me and though I would help.
I have never heard of a census taking place in Croatia in 1996. If you have any such results please share them with me as I collect such data.
I agree with you that many Serbs left the Soc. Rep. of Croatia not just in the 1981-91 interval but from 1945 onward. They were also recorded in censa, I believe that in 1981 some 150,000 Serbs living in the SR of Serbia were born on the territory of SR of Croatia. No, this does not include those who declared themselves Yugoslavs I agree, there were many Serbs among them. However not all Yugoslavs from 1981 can be counted as Serbs, some were from mixed-marriages others opted for the regional option in 1991 (Istrians et al.)
Igor Jaramaz
Canada- Thursday March 27, 2003 at 9:07 pm
Dennis
Given how everything is turned upside down these days, I guess it may pay to think with one's ass instead of one's head, in which case we're blessed with a great geostrategic advantage down here. LOL
David
Australia- Thursday March 27, 2003 at 9:35 pm
More media brainwashing! Al Jazeera has been banned from Nasdaq because of its "irresponsible reporting". Those low down filthy rotten subversive psychotic anti- democratic fundamentalists simply refuse to sanitise the Iraq attack.How dare they show pictures of what's going on? It's simply uncivilised and un-American media.
Jamie Shea and NATO showed them how it was done in Kosovo. Some people never learn. The least they could do is take a leaf from Bob Dylan's Wicked Messenger... "If you don't got good news, then don't bring any", a la the Milosevic hearing.
Seems like we just have to keep bombing until they all see the light through infra red night vision goggles.
David
Australia- Thursday March 27, 2003 at 9:38 pm
Mr. JovanovicIt was very different 50 years ago in Yugoslavia. At that time Yugoslavia was under embargo from East and West, country was undeveloped, and the outcomes of WWII were devastating, people lived under iron fist communist rule, proletariat dictatorship.
All means of production were state property.
Yugoslavian League of Communist believed that market economy is the means of exploiting people, and that only planned economy can ensure social equality and cooperative relations in production (meaning, production, commerce, distribution and consumption).
However very soon in 1961 Political leadership realized that economy boom during fifties is staling and Bakaric announced in Rome that Yugoslavia will look to implement a market economy. I guess at that time, nor West nor East wanted that.
Anyhow after 1974 Yugoslavia fully abandoned planned economy, all state property in a long process from 1950 was converted into common property, and from completely internationally isolated country in 1950 Yugoslavia become the most internationally recognized country in seventies having consular representations in over 120 countries over the world. At that time there were three things that any country will have a problem achieving it: Social security, health care and education system. Country became highly technologically developed and more than successfully competed with West for the Middle East, East-European and Far-East market.
The problem at that time was that social property was considered as everybody’s or nobody’s property. Considering the problem, political leadership came out with new ideological category “social self-protection” and brought new law considering protection of a common property - “Social self-protection law” - listing all parties and their duties in the protection of common property.
On the beginning of eighties On the beginning of eighties Yugoslavia faced problem of slowing GDP growth, foreign debt and lack of common property protection. In 1984 political leadership realized that Social self-protection failed, and it was concluded that in order to continue returning interests and installment on foreign debt the only way is to became fully integrated in World market and sharpen competition. For that reason private production was further liberalized. The remaining question stayed “How to distribute common property?” (As I posted in one of my previous posts; it was recorded on companies’ records who and how much contributed to common property)
The only justify way was to distribute common properties shares to whom they belonged according Yugoslavian Constitution and according to “Cumulative work law”, from 1976. All shares (Companies, health care, pension funds, residences, education etc) belonged to employed and retired workers.In Yugoslavia there was very, very small part of state’s property.
Mr Jovanovic, Milosevic distributed residences and returned partially land to its previous owners already, there was enough of sign that he is planning to distribute shares to entitled owners, that his approach was different from what West planned to do with Yugoslavian common property.
With a right solution of property, self-management model, health care, education system, social security, developed business behavior, already established business connections, already taken huge market share on the Middle East and Russia, with several high technology products Yugoslavia was ideologically real threat to West.
West used, as it is using now in the Middle east, emigrants, and different nationalistic groups to dissolve Yugoslavian model, and to take away Yugoslavian property, as it plans to take oil from other nations.
I bet Mr. Jovanovic that your friends did not know that in Iraq in eighties US (as Iraq ally then) competed with Yu construction companies, and weapon producers including tanks and they lost, as theirs products were inferior.
Mr. Jovanovic Milosevic was not communist remnant - all of these questions were already solved.
Dictator does not have a parliament, or goes against parliament decisions or does not care for public opinion.
Pero Peric
Canada- Thursday March 27, 2003 at 10:24 pm
Well, for one, "your" Prime Minister seems to be taking full advantage of that geostrategic advantage.Where's the British Crown when it's needed to dissolve an Australian Government? That's what I say.
It's also well beyond time that the British Crown revived its old tradition of dissolving a British Government. That would even make me think of becoming a Royalist; though never a loyalist, methinks.
;-)
Just heard on US TV (ughhh) a US military spokeman double-speaking about them not targetting the Iraqi TV system, but that the Iraqi TV communications nodes were also being used for command and control.
So perhaps we'll be spared the Orwellian spectacle of watching the Director of Iraqi TV being dragged in front of a Kangaroo Court accused of the war-crime of letting his own people die through the bombs dropped by others.
That should work, as most people will have forgotten that similar fate of the manager of Yugoslavian TV; not that most dumb schlucks around the World ever knew what that was.
_____________
Pero:
I think Mr. Jovanovic may have been talking tongue-in-cheek. Caught me out though.
Excellent analysis otherwise. Follow the money. That's what it's all about. I'm a bit rusty, anyone know who's running the Trepca mines right now?
Dennis Revell
USA- Thursday March 27, 2003 at 10:26 pm
Oops. Last message above divider line intended for the Antipodean David.
Dennis Revell
USA- Thursday March 27, 2003 at 10:30 pm
Pero
Excellent post. Serb nationalist diaspora were brainwashed that Milosevic was a communist. That played straight into the hands of the West's divide and conquer strategy. The facts, as you outlined them, clearly reveal that his actions were not those of an old style Communist. Further, it could readily be argued that Milosevic was the one who actually brought old style communism down in Yugoslavia.
If Iraq had paid back its debt to YU at the time, YU would not have had the foreign debt it had. But Iraq was encouraged into a war against Iran, guess by whom and for what reason?
Iraq defaulted on payments to YU and YU in turn defaulted on its own loans. Two birds killed with one stone! Brilliant.
The Eleventh Commandment is:
"Thou shalt not be independent, pursue independent policies or independently conduct trade unless We shall authorise the same. May the Seven Plagues of Sanctions be upon you for any breach. And if they don't work, may you be struck by bombs and lightning from the sky. And if that doesn't work may you be struck by the sword of justice and the full wrath of the Law (ICTY)".
David
Australia- Thursday March 27, 2003 at 10:38 pm
Dennis,My cousin is running the Trepca mine, under license of course. He's a mate of Dick Chaney's mate who is a mate of the CEO of Haliburton who's also a mate of Dick Chaney who has a mate who is the father of Condaleeza and George through two distinct and separate matings. Let me know if you need a reference for any of the forthcoming contracts in Iraq. LOL
David
Australia- Thursday March 27, 2003 at 11:00 pm
;-)
Dennis Revell
USA - Thursday March 27, 2003 at 5:40 pm