MILOSEVIC TRIAL DISCUSSION ARCHIVE

Is Slobodan Milosevic getting a fair trial?
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• discussion archive

• Friday March 28, 2003 at 1:01 am
  My friend the NGO who is in Belgrade writes his observations on shopping and school. Some might find this of interest.

  I went shopping yesterday and, for the first time in three weeks, used my V I S A card. Credit cards are accepted in the large and/or expensive stores. All the grocery accepts Dinars only. The photo film stores which are always connected to a portrait studio have no plastic. I ran into one unusual situation where I went to pay for a book in a book store and they only accepted credit cards on merchandise OTHER than books. One rarely encounters strange things to Western thinking here in Serbia. Usually here everything works, everything makes sense and everything is on time.

  In downtown Belgrade, there are literally dozens of shoe stores and hundreds of clothing stores, mostly women's. There are plenty of Italian and internationally known designer brands.

  The junky stores tend to be Chinese or Indian and you no longer see many Belgrade shoppers in those stores. Clothing is by no means cheap. For a very ordinary pair of shoes you will pay $50.00 Canadian. I saw many men's dress shirts up to $100.00 Canadian. I was in a number of clothing stores that would make Robson Street look like Wall-Mart!! I asked my friends how people afforded to shop in those stores and they said that they couldn't. Can you guess who can? A secondary teacher makes $300.00 Canadian a month and usually holds down two jobs on a shift basis.

  I bought a short sleeved shirt for 560 Dinars . It was fun as the clerk spoke no English. Our conversation went something like this "Dobra Dan, Da, Da, Da, Da, Moja, Dobra, Kwala Kwala" That means Good-Day, Yes, Yes ,Yes, Yes , O.K. Good Thank You" And we both said the same thing. She picked out her favorite color for me in a size 42. I got a lime green with blue and white. I will wear it to Bologna on Sunday. I leave on Sunday at 6:00 A.M. on a second class train. This is a 17 hour ride. I hope to see a football game on Saturday before I go. It is a toss up between that and the National Theatre.

  STUDENTS:

  I have revised my opinion about students. I have now been in a number of secondary classes helping to launch my pilot my program in C.P.P. I also was in a primary classroom today. The students are better behaved than the teachers were at the staff meeting. They are really not undisciplined. I now would use the word "relaxed" . They have a very friendly and informal relationship with the teacher. No-one seems to mind when a student barges into class late and disrupts the entire room. Or nobody seems to mind when a student is presenting a report on the geography of Canada to the class and a number of her classmates never stop talking. Everyone appears to get their work done and the students are highly competitive for marks which range from 1 to 5.

  My school is unique in that it is the only High School of Design in Belgrade and students come from all over town. After they finish grade 12 they may write exams to enter the University of Belgrade.They may also get a job in commercial art but are more likely to be working in a restaurant while they hope to get a job in commercial art.

  There is little money for education here. Gone are the good old days.

  Problems at my school are similar to Kamloops. Litter. graffiti, smoking, tardiness, drugs, buying beer at the local store which is not allowed to sell students beer and so on.

  However all the problems here are less under control. This is because teachers get 400.00 a month and for hat they are not prepared to do any supervision or carry out any duties out of class.

  Parents also seem to have more say than in Kamloops. Like a teacher may say" We at school suspect strongly that your daughter is attending class stoned" Answer from parent " That is not our daughter and you are crazy to think so" End of story'

  There are some problems special to our school. Art teachers here are not the most conforming bunch in the world and their is a bit of a rift between their philosophy and the academic teachers. We have no gymnasium and no playing fields. There are no extra curricular or other activities for the students. There is a student council but they have only met once this year and have no teacher to help them. There are no social functions for students.

  Despite all of this I have been very happy working at the school and both students and teachers have been very kind. Mira is a new Principal following two bad ones. Principals here are elected by their colleagues.

  She only has 770 students so does not qualify for a vice principal. She has one secretary who is really a Lawyer and one typist on half time. Dragan ,who is retired army guards the front door and helps to supervise the entire school. He is paid by the parents. At this point in time C.P.P. is off and running. Bye Now Don
  
  Walter Trkla
  Kamloops BC
  Canada

• Friday March 28, 2003 at 1:57 am
  
  The Facilitator

  Warmonger General to Clinton and Bush in three campaigns in four years Blair demonstrates his lack moral integrity to the world.

  The Iraqis have “executed” two of our soldiers claims Trust-me Tony on the world stage. He wasn’t there so how does he know?

  The British Army, whose men are there, informed parents that they have been “killed instantly in combat”.

  In Kosovo the Blairs complained of Rape Camps and Death Camps which did not exist and referred to the murder of tens of thousands of Kosovars by the Serbs which did not happen.

  Do we detect a pattern here?

  While claiming the moral high ground Blair lies to excite hatred between peoples!

  PS Breaking news: The lights go out for The Prince of Darkness Richard Pearl who led the charge to war in Iraq.
  
  Peter Taylor
  Herts/UK

• Friday March 28, 2003 at 7:42 am
  Peter,

  This Prince of Darkness?

  http://polyconomics.com/showarticle.asp?articleid=1634

  Spelled Perle actually. I seriously hope, against logic really, but nevermind, I seriously hope he and the rest the Defence Policy Board are about to have come-uppance in Iraq of the Biblical proportions the US war-hawks are so fond of citing.

  What's the breaking news? Did he get the boot? Resign?

  Don't get me started on Blair. Grrrrr. Unprintable ... Grrrrr ...

  You reminded me that I'd said in my first post here (I mean first post for a long time) that I'd elaborate on a disturbing thought I had on Iraq in Here it is:-

  ... WHAT IF ... ?

  What if Saddam Hussein does have so-called WMDs, chemical, and perhaps biological and most unlikely, nuclear capability? Personally, I think, so what, so do many other countries, including Israel, and I'm still against the "war" (the slaughter, really). If he does, however, a few questions occurred to me: How would the US know, but not be able to point UNSCOM in the right direction: how could the US be so certain that they're there, and yet not know where they are? Why would there be such a rush to get the "war" over and done with? Why would Colin Powell apparently U-turn from his former position of caution to a position as belligerent as the the most hawkish "Wolfowitz Doctrine" hawks in the US Administration: is it possible that he's not as much the Uncle Tom, or, as the admirable Harry Belafonte described him, the "House Negro" as many of those against the "war" have thought?

  A possible answer? The US has a high-ranking mole in the Iraqi Administration?!? A high-ranker who would KNOW Saddam's presumably clever techniques for concealing "WMDs" - and WHERE they are. What would the likely consequences of this be, and how would it fit in with known facts?

  Such a person would obviously be in great danger. This would be an explanation of the rush to "war". The UN process was merely window-dressing as most realistic people always thought, and which was eventually confirmed. Why would such a person not just "play it safe" and inform the US just where the "WMDs" are? There are several possible scenarios here. Perhaps he HAS, but both he and the US realise that UNSCOM finding one of them would ensure rapid relocation or possible booby-trapped destruction of the rest of them, with Iraq claiming that the one found was a mere administrative oversight, a claim it is alleged they have made before. In addition this would run the risk of exposing "Mr. X" in the Iraqi inner-circle to severe scrutiny - presumably only a very limited number of people would have access to such information. This would explain the US's refusal to give UNSCOM the heads-up on "WMD" locations. Equally likely is that that person wants a place in a new Iraqi Government, perhaps even the leadership, and knowing something of the history of US foreign policy around the world, just doesn't trust them very much (who could blame him.)

  So, basically, he assures the US of his ability to lead the US to the "WMDs", but, despite the danger that such procrastination puts him in, just won't give them any more details until he is absolutely certain that Saddam Hussein has fallen, or is about to fall. This also has advantages for the US, as well as attendant risk. The advantages are obvious. A new Iraqi Government, post-"war", that contains at least one prominent member from the Old Guard, a new ardent and unexpected critic of the old regime, would likely be much more acceptable and saleable to the Iraqi people, as well as some of its currently anti-"war" neighbours. The real slam-dunk for the Americans would be the inevitable nauseous "I told you so"s the World would be hearing from now until Kingdom Come. These are advantages that make the attendant risk probably worthwhile, this risk being that, in one way or another, the mole gets it in the neck before the Americans can get to him and the "WMD" information vital to them. The irony would be if that happened as the result of a stray American bomb. The risk here is that the US would then be reduced to merely claiming that they had a mole who was going to lead them to the "WMDs", but with no way of actually finding them - their stated reason for the "war". That would be a definite really serious PR loss for the US.

  As an aside, speaking of American bombs, I wonder where the US got its intelligence right at the beginning of the "war" concerning the location of Saddam Hussein, when they tried to take him out? Hmmm. Which of the Iraqi heirarchy were and were not around Mr. Hussein's suspected location at that time? Hmmm.

  So, Blair, Bush, and the newly revealed Mr. X end up as brilliant heros; the Germans, French, and the likes of John Pilger, Greg Palast, Michael Moore and others who, as it appears to me anyway, try hard to be thoughtful purveyors of truth-in-detail and wisdom are made to look foolish, at least in the eyes of many more people than is currently the case.

  Moreover, if these admitted speculations are not complete dog-doo, the US will have manipulated its often not exactly undeserved unsavoury World-wide image quite brilliantly. They will have used it to successfully mask their mole, Mr. X: "There go those Americans again," (and Brits. this time, presumably Blair was privy at an early stage to these machinations), "making up fake pretexts, using fake intelligence and other reports to justify belligerence against a smaller country that doesn't fit their desired image. They've done it all before". As, indeed, they have. All purposeful obfuscation to conceal the real situation, an utmostly delicate one from the US's point of view.

  Of course, who really knows what the hell is actually going on in this all smoke-and-mirrors World of ?"ours"?? It could equally be that SOMETHING like the above is going on, but not quite the above. The US itself may be being used by Mr. X in his power bid. Saddam Hussein obviously has excellent security arrangements, perhaps somehow robust enough even against attacks from within his own inner-circle. A Mr. X may have decided on a brilliant plan to dupe the US into believing some fiction about non-existent "WMDs", intending to claim later that Saddam got jittery about them as the "war" progressed, and had them destroyed (or moved). Not ideal for the US, but satisfactory, I would think, as that would still fit in with their hegemonistic desires anyway; and they would still have Mr. X to parade around and claim anything he and they wanted him to on all the major news networks. A darned good second prize, working pretty much as well for the US and their new proxy Mr. X, and not actually carrying with it the pesky requirement for those darned "WMDs" to exist, or have existed. Of course, several permutations of these themes are possible.

  One other scenario, for example, that occurs to me is that the US merely tries to bribe a surviving current member of the old guard to make stories up such as the above (probably as in: "take this bribe, or you'll have an accident"), place him somewhere high up in an eventual US puppet government, thereby getting some more acceptance and "legitimacy" for the new US friendly regime.

  Depending on where precisely those who are anti-"war" stand on this issue, this may fall into the category of wiser men than they thought doing what they had to; or, as is my view, complete and total disaster. Disaster because the fascistic US foreign policy "Wolfowitz Doctrine", and the "Project for the New American Century" destructive ideas of full-spectrum dominance, which I actually regard as TRULY un-american, would receive a terrific and probably unstoppable boost. Far fewer people than usual, and than is healthy, would begin to question deceptive pretexts for belligerent US actions elsewhere that seem likely to follow, and that dangerous unquestioning would likely persist for a long time to come.

  If there's anything to the above speculations, World, look out; and I guess I better had too. ;-)

  I asked earlier on how the above would fit in with the known facts. Disturbingly, it appears to fit in very well. At least there is no instance of mismatch that I can discern.

  ... WHAT IF ... ?

  ___________

  ... See ... if you try it's possible to cheer yourself up ... things could be worse ...

  (GULP)
  
  Dennis Revell
  USA

• Friday March 28, 2003 at 10:51 am
  It is 8:00 am., in California.

  The trial starts on Monday, hopefully Milosevic will be well enough and Vera will be back with her report. I hope Jari will be back with his legal mind and his funny disposition.

  Meantime, David, I hope you realize that you can use the mouse to scroll down. All you have to do is put your finger on it and it will move you to wherever you want to go. No need for you to read sillies that do not interest you.

  For those of you who are interested in the Iraq war and the US take on it if you did not see Daniel Elsburg, and Bill Kristol on Cspan, I will brief you with the little part that I saw. Cspan is on awfully early. If you are not interested just put your finger on the mouse and away you will go.

  Daniel Elsburg (is that a “g” or an “e”)was the one who copied the Pentagon papers and gave a copy to the Congress and later to the press. He was indicted but the case against him was dismissed when Vice President Agnew turned out to have some criminal instincts and Nixon well.....he had his problems and one of them was breaking into Elsburg’s (decided to go with the “u”) psychiatrist’s office.

  I saw very little of this program and it was on for two hours. Cspan is one way of getting both sides of this war.

  Callers were hostile to both. What was brought out by the callers? Bill Kristol was plummeted for smiling on all the media shows while speaking of the war. The caller said this was probably because he had never been in the military himself. That wiped the grin off of Kristol’s face.

  Daniel Elsburg was attacked by some pretty hostile red neck callers. What was brought out by them. They wanted to know if he had himself ever served in the military and had ever been in combat. Elsburg served three years in the US Marines in peacetime. During Vietnam he covered the war while with an army company (I forgot the name of the company) and he carried a gun for protection as he did not want to be a burden on the troops who would feel it necessary if he did not. He hopes he did not kill anyone but he had at times fired his gun.

  Elsburg has been arrested for protesting this war. Bill Kristol is probably one of the fools that started it.

  Compare the record of both of these men, and ask yourself why would anyone support Kristol over Elsburg? 50,000 men were killed in Vietnam. Bill Kristol thinks Vietnam was not a mistake and we could have won it if it were not for this and that and this and that. I knew a twenty one year old innocent who went and I often wonder if he came home okay. Maybe he did but then again did he lose one of his precious legs or arms. If he lost his life or limbs, would Kristol care?Bush and Clinton both managed to stay away from Vietnam. They were rewarded with the highest office in the land. One of Clinton’s people, Donna Shalaya (help me out here, how do you spell her name?) said “well at least we did not send our best.” So the kid with the beautiful blue eyes was not one of “our best.”

  The one from Wisconsin, I am sorry, I do not remember your initials. Do you think the bombs described as being so loud they cause the car alarms to go off in Baghdad, and the noise described by reporters (if that is what you want to call them) as being scary, cause the children emotional problems for the rest of their lives?

  That is if they survive the bombing? Is this what you would call liberating?

  I do not understand people. Sometimes they are such a disappointment.

  Dusom thank you.

  
  
  Kathryn Love
  SJC
  USA

• Friday March 28, 2003 at 11:20 am
  Kathryn

  Kristol is definitely one of the ones that started this current war:-

  http://polyconomics.com/showarticle.asp?articleid=1914

  He's the mouthpiece for the ultra-right wing Defence Policy Review Board (DPRB), formerly chaired (until today?!?) by old Cold-War warrior Richard Perle.

  I think I saw somewhere that the DPRB has full access to US top-secret information. In fact, they probably know more than Bush. Hell, what am I saying, I know more than Bush. Bush does what they tell him to.
  
  Dennis Revell
  USA

• Friday March 28, 2003 at 12:03 pm
  

  Meanwhile in Belgrade and under martial law:

  Serb Police Looking for Milosevic's Wife
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Shangrila

• Friday March 28, 2003 at 12:06 pm
  Igor Jaramaz

  You stated:” I don't even know what this whole discussion is about? I just have the information available to me and though I would help.”

  Well I was referring to Ana’s post since the numbers she provided weren’t complete. And these numbers have a lot to do with Milosevic’s trial. - Serbian rebellion in Croatia or Milosevic caused it.

  You said: ”I have never heard of a census taking place in Croatia in 1996. If you have any such results please share them with me as I collect such data.”
  If you are interested I’ll give you some leads:

  http://www.geocities.com/krajinaforce8/zlocini/37.html
  http://www.caa.org.yu/Arhiva/Srpski/popis.htm
  http://www.aimpress.org/dyn/pubs/archive/data/200207/20701-001-pubs-lju.htm

  You said: “I agree with you that many Serbs left the Soc. Rep. of Croatia not just in the 1981-91 interval but from 1945 onward.”
  I was referring to census from 1991 doubting that it was complete and that many Serbs already left before census 1991. - Referring to greater pressure from Croatian government and only to 1990/91 year.

  I doubted Croatian census from 2001 too: Why, please read this:

  http://www.novine.ca/ARHIVA/2002/21_06_02/bivsa_yu.html

  And read this: You’ll find that not only they did ethnical cleansing but as well that they want to negate it. Blaming downturn trend in population to fall of birth rate, not even referring to the trend in 1980ies.
  http://www.hrz.hr/aktiv/no.htm

  Why did you say:” from 1945 onward”? Do not forget 1914 (you said you are collecting such a data) 1918, rough period from 1929 - 1934, 1937 and formation of “Banovina Hrvatska” and the roughest one in 1941 (Number of killed? Number of Converted? And 300,000 left to Serbia ), and 1941-1945.

  If we do not go into that “far” history from 1914, (as we are always blamed) we can only then refer to census in 1981. And numbers are:

  In 1981 there was 11,5 percent of Serbs and 8.24 % of Yugoslavs, Others (or “neopredeljeni”) 3.61% out of 4,578 million inhabitants in Croatia.

  Then:
  Serbs: 11,5 % out of 4,578,000 = 526, 470;
  Yugoslavs: 8.24% out of 4,578,000 = 377,227;
  Others: 3.61% out of 4,578,000 = 165,265;
  If we assume that half of the Serbs declared themselves as Yugoslavs without “others” That is around 188,000.
  So the number of Serbs in 1981 would be close to:
  526,470 + 188,000 = 714,470;
  If you add to that number average birth rate in Croatia and Slovenia (as lowest one in Yu) during 80ies you got number close to 900,000 Serbs living in Croatia on the beginning of nineties, without “indeterminate“ (neopredeljenih) Wow - did I make up all of that?
  
  Pero Peric
  Canada

• Friday March 28, 2003 at 2:50 pm
  Article on Serbian Unity Congress Forum

  Saddam's bunkers said "impossible" to destroy Tue March 25, 2003 01:38 PM ET By Nedim Dervisbegovic

  SARAJEVO, BOSNIA-HERZEGOVINA (Reuters) - Underground bunkers built for Iraqi President Saddam Hussein can resist massive bombardment and those hiding inside could survive for up to six months, a retired Yugoslav army officer who helped build them said.

  ---------------------------- RUSH TO SAVE THE SQUEALER?........I don‘t think so.

  Clinton and Blair repeatedly bombed Iraq in the no fly zone. When Bush became the illegitimate president of the US, he bombed Baghdad. Why? Who knows? Soon this act was forgotten and Bush went on his way. 9:00 to 5:00 and off to his residency to read the comic books or whatever as he munches on pretzels.Weekends he was off to Camp David or to his ranch in Texas.

  This Macho Man was not going to waste time working in the White House like some other presidents did. After his strenuous schedule of about 40 hours a week in the Oval Office, Macho Man needed a long vacation. So it was off to his ranch in Texas where he could dig his spurs into something worthwhile like (I do not know what do you dig spurs into, is it a horse, mule, or just dirt?) for one month.Oh it was great to see those reporters sweating from the Texas heat, and inhaling horse manure as they admired their Macho Man president doing nothing but walking around his ranch with that great swagger of his.

  Then look what happened! The Word Trade Center, the Pentagon, and we are told 3,000 civilians all attacked by our own planes, hijacked by terrorists.

  That happened nine months into Macho Man‘s presidency and he was the laid back guy who was being complimented by the media for taking life easy when that other president,(the one I personally do not like) worked night and day like some kind of fool.

  Guess who Macho Man and his right arm men blame. Bill Clinton, even the fat man who calls himself Rev. Falswell says it is Bill Clinton‘s fault and there are quite a few red necks who believe every word fat man Rev. Falswell utters.

  General Powell played good cop to Bushie‘s bad cop. They were playing games and when the protest marches started up the hawks were really upset with the General. He wasted their time and allowed these freaks to protest and put them on the defensive. So, away we go no more time to waste. Weapons of Mass Destruction. Who is going to believe the US, if they do find them. Blair? Remember not too long ago Bush gave us some wrong information using forged documents.

  I believe that out of this entire administration the only one who ever served was Colin Powell. However, I am not a fan of his either.

  WHERE HAVE ALL THE GOOD MEN GONE? To All Serbs in the Former Yugoslavia, You Must Be Living Your Nightmare Over Again. God Bless and Keep You and Keep Out All Evil Spirits.
  
  Kathryn Love
  SJC
  USA

• Friday March 28, 2003 at 3:02 pm
  KL

  Daniel Elsburg worked for you and me on 'secret' studies. He leaked these studies to the press and USSR. I believe he should be in the federal pen.

  Again, Nixon was twice elected, 2nd time by a landslide. His success resulted in his being hounded out of office for a 2 bit insignificant breakin.

  Kristol is self serving to a 'greater' World Order and I'm glad he got dumped from 'This Week' Sunday TV. I get upset to see him so much on 'Fox' Sunday TV.

  'Bombs' on selected targets are noisey and no doubt unsettling. So are the mullah hate lectures these people get 5 times a day. Maybe an attitude adjustment is going on by the 'bombing' and is a positive thing. Over the years, watching their street protests, glorifying anti western violence has hardened me. Either way, like the the Kosovars, they can opt to leave the city to the Republican Guard until this matter is settled. I can't help it, but war is always hell, for both sides. Now that were're committed KL, I hope you support a quick win for the Allies and Iraq's future.
  
  J P
  USA,Wis

• Friday March 28, 2003 at 5:19 pm
  JP:

  ' George Dubya Bush, unelected in the year 2000 is the one who should be in the Federal pen.

  Ellsberg, or someone of his ilk and obvious real courage is the one who should be in the White House.

  This Iraq war - not war, unwarranted slaughter, really, is a War-Crime of massive proportions. Simple sheer Mass Murder. You should go and read some of the links I gave at polyconomics, and follow links from there and search the site to find out what really is going on.

  This web-site is not run by some extreme-left nutcase, nor by a Falwell or Robertson loving ultra-right red-neck dupe, with brains fried by the southern Sun; but by Jude Wanniski, a former Ronald Reagan advisor. (So I guess he could have been a Falwell loving redneck du.. .. etc.

  ;-)

  The next time the US has a figure like John Gotti to go after on its own soil, to avoid the obvious and true accusation of blatant hypocritical double-standards, it ought to bomb the hell out of Brooklyn, if the said John Gotti like figure refuses to go quietly.
  
  Dennis Revell
  USA

• Friday March 28, 2003 at 7:19 pm
  Kathryn & J.P.,
  
  I saw the debate on C-Span between Kristol and Elsburg, and I didn't think much of it at all.
  
  The only disagreement between the two was in how the United States should interject itself into Iraq's internal affairs.
  
  Elsburg wanted to intervene by covert means and Kristol favored the use of overt military invasion. Both men agreed that the United States should have "involved itself in the Balkans sooner." They both agreed that the USA should have "taken steps to remove Milosevic back in 1991."
  
  As hard as it may be for some people to accept the United States is not the world's babysitter. If the president of Iraq abuses the people of Iraq that is too bad, but it isn't a problem that the United States has any business involving itself in.

  The farewell address of the great American President, George Washington should be required reading by every American who considers himself to be a patriot. America was founded on a principle of neutrality and non-involvement in the internal affairs of other nations. George Washington warned the American people against alliances and becoming involved in other people's fights. I dare say that if the American people had heeded George Washington's council the terrorist attacks of September the 11th would never have happened in the first place.
  
  The United States was founded on great principles. A separation of powers is enshrined in the American Constitution, and that should be observed scrupulously. Article 1 Sec. 8 of the Constitution gives the congress the following powers:

  * To define and punish piracies and felonies committed on the high seas, and offenses against the law of nations;

  * To declare war, grant letters of marque and reprisal, and make rules concerning captures on land and water;

  * To raise and support armies, but no appropriation of money to that use shall be for a longer term than two years;

  * To provide and maintain a navy;

  * To make rules for the government and regulation of the land and naval forces;

  * To provide for calling forth the militia to execute the laws of the union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions;

  * To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the United States, reserving to the states respectively, the appointment of the officers, and the authority of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

  The powers of the Executive concerning the U.S. armed forces are very limited, Article 2 Sec. 2 of the Constitution states, "The President shall be commander in chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the militia of the several states, when called into the actual service of the United States" When called into service by who? Obviously, from Article 1 of the Constitution, when called into service by the CONGRESS. The president, as the commander in chief, has absolutely no right under the Constitution to engage the armed forces of the United States in a war without a declaration of war from the congress.

  This war in Iraq and the previous war against Yugoslavia were executed in contravention of the Constitution of the United States. In neither case did the President have a declaration of war issued by the congress.

  The powers granted to the different branches of government are non-transferable under any circumstance except through an amendment of the constitution:

  "If, in the opinion of the people, the distribution or modification of the constitutional powers be in any particular wrong, let it be corrected by an amendment in the way which the Constitution designates. But let there be no change by usurpation; for though this, in one instance, may be the instrument of good, it is the customary weapon by which free governments are destroyed. The precedent must always greatly overbalance in permanent evil any partial or transient benefit, which the use can at any time yield." - George Washington 1796

  Congress has no right to transfer its power to wage war to the executive branch without first amending the constitution. This so-called "authorization to use force" is illegal as it is not a declaration of war but rather is simply a surrender of congressional power to the executive branch. This should be unacceptable to every American who loves his Constitution.

  These so-called "patriots" who wave the great flag of the United States and declare their unconditional support for the president as he violates his sacred oath to "preserve, protect and defend the Constitution" are traitors against the United States. They betray every principle my country was founded on. They are faction builders who have more loyalty and concern for their own party than they've got for the nation itself.

  I also extend that same condemnation to most of the so-called "anti-war" protesters, they take to the streets without a care in the world for this nation or its Constitution. They oppose the war, not because it violates the constitution, but because the man executing the war is in a different political faction than the one they have their allegiance to. Where were these hypocrites when their faction leader, Bill Clinton, was carrying-out an unconstitutional and undeclared war of aggression against Yugoslavia?

  I love America. I am completely devoted to the U.S. Constitution, but so help me God I hate and despise these politicians who have hijacked my country, and endeavor to deceive its people.
  
  Andy Wilcoxson
  Washington, United States

• Friday March 28, 2003 at 7:21 pm
  I don't know whether Bush was legally elected or not, but it hardly matters. The alternative would have been Gore. Is anyone here naive enough to believe he wouldn't have done the same thing after he served that war criminal Clinton without a peep against him?

  In any case, I have read Clinton quoted as saying he agreed with what Bush is doing.

  I am completely against this aggressive, not war, but invasion, of Iraq, but let's not kid ourselves about the elections. In my opinion elections as close as that should have been null and void and we should have started over from the beginning with completely new results. Actually, what I want from any American election (looking back on the last 30 years or so) is a place to check "none of the above." If enough people checked that, we would then have to have new candidates. That's what we really need. Gore -- oh, puhleese.
  
  Anna P
  California

• Saturday March 29, 2003 at 12:30 am
  Dennis
  W was elected, despite massive Democratic national fraud. It was all in the papers.

  Ellsberg was a mental case, he thought he was 'king'.

  What's the problem with Robertson, Falwell and the southern sun? Or a country based on 'western civilization' and Judo-Christianity for that matter? It's what made this country great.

  I just watch 10 1991 immigrants from Iraq being interviewed by Barbara Walters on 20-20. It was a 'nightmare' for them but the upshot was, when you're having a tooth pulled, it may hurt. They, like all of us, sympatize for the people. You can't call it a 'massacre' this time except for the combatants.

  Andy
  Actually, I believe, the last war 'declared' was WWII. And only in response to Germanys' declaration and Japans' bombing of Pearl Harbor. Congress can stop activities, by refusing funding, like they did in Nam and Nicaragua. That may be better seeing that the Congress never had the nerve to face up to Hitler or Tojo. They even balked at foreign aid to England. To this day, the Congress en total is a rotten bunch. You can impeach a President, cut off his funding, try him after his term, but with the Congress you're stuck.

  Sad that we had a 'no character' president in the 90's and a democratic majority that signed on for ths bombing.
  
  J P
  USA,Wis

• Saturday March 29, 2003 at 1:38 am
  J.P.,

  There is a place where the rubber meets the road here.

  As far as war and the United States are concerned its the congress not the president who has the right to declare war. If you disagree with that then you are in disagreement with the constitution. That is the bottom line.

  If you think the constitution is wrong that's fine, you should petition the government to amend it, (bearing in mind that the next president might be named Hillary).

  What is wrong and what I have a problem with is the suggestion that it is acceptable for the constitution to be ignored when it is inconvenient to observe it. It is never acceptable under any circumstance to ignore the constitution.
  
  Andy Wilcoxson
  Washington, United States

• Saturday March 29, 2003 at 2:35 am
  

  Andy,

  If we can ignore the World's Constitution, namely the UN Charter, what's the problem in ignoring a smaller one like the US Constitution? Or anybody else's constitution for that matter?

  Of course, we can always claim the divine right of the right wing moral majority, Falwell and Co, JP of Wisconsin etc.

  God bless the Bible Bashers, for they will surely inherit the earth, in small patches no doubt. The only question is why they are so keen to put the rest of the world ahead of them with their fire and brimstone.

  JP

  If the last war declared was WW2, where does that leave the 40 odd countries the US has bombed since then? Undeclared wars or just crimes? As for Congress... who needs a stupid and meddlesome Congress. Those suckers are meant to represent the people of the USA. Now that's indeed a very vulgar concept.
  
  David
  Australia

• Saturday March 29, 2003 at 2:56 am
  

  Kathryn

  Thanks for the hint about scrolling the mouse. I presume your comment was in response to a comment I made to Anna regarding her repartee with Jenny Venus who was sidetracking things with her vulgarity, axe- grinding and provocation?

  In your case, any comment on media spin about Iraq is as much a part of Milosevic and YU as is the attack on Iraq. One is just the updated version of the other.

  Jari

  Where the hell are you? The board is not the same without you (seriously!). [Come back, Nico's turned sensible and all is forgiven :-) Walter, Milan and I will even shout you a trip to Sombor with us.]
  
  David
  Australia

• Saturday March 29, 2003 at 2:59 am
  David,

  My point is that the US should follow its own laws. The US has a great constitution, the only problem is that it gets ignored. If the US had abided by its own constitution it never would have attacked Yugoslavia, or Iraq, or anybody else since the end of WWII.

  But now back to the Balkans, I see that Ivan Stambolic's body has been found. Can somebody tell me what Ivan Stambolic's political ideology was. Specifically, did he remain a Communist (loyal to Tito) up until the time he disappeared in 2000?

  
  
  Andy Wilcoxson
  Washington, United States

• Saturday March 29, 2003 at 3:18 am
  Andy, I got your point, my comment may have been somewhat more tongue in cheek than I'd intended :-) Sorry.

  As far as I've heard, Ivan Stambolic was Milosevic's predecessor in the Communist League of Serbia. It was under his auspices that the Kosovo situation was ignored in Serbia before Milosevic came on the scene. It is considered by some that Milosevic, as his protege, betrayed him by addressing the Kosovo violence that had preceded Milosevic's rise to power. It is considered by others that Stambolic had betrayed the Serbs by hushing up the Kosovo violence against the Serbs prior to Milosevic's rise to power.

  As for his ideology, it could be summed up as "wishy-washy" or "hanging on to one's cushy leather armchair", a great example of "realpolitik" under the banner of Tito's brotherhood and unity doctrine. Other's no doubt may have heard it differently so I may be convinced otherwise by someone more learned.
  
  David
  Australia

• Saturday March 29, 2003 at 6:12 am
  Stambolic was as David says previous leader of Communist Party. Milosevic outsted him at Communist party congress (it was on film). When people voted Stambolic looked very shocked.

  Milosevic owe his carear to Stambolic. Stambolic gave him his job at Beobanka then into politics into Communist party high level. It was said that Milosevic was thought as ordinary man with no real support. Nobody thought he was leader type and it was surprise.

  His politics were not wishy washy (how David you make assumption without investigation?). He was Communist probably of Gorbacev kind. He might have been good if he stayed longer time but who know?

  He was kidnaped and executed (we knew this long time ago) but state security said they were following him but for 5 minutes when he disapear they lost him. In this time he was kidnaped. Nobody explain why they were folowing him in first place. But reason was that DOS were thinking to put him as candidate for Presidency (which Kostunica took).

  Now after confession of one of Zemun we found his bones. 4 member of Red Berets who were in DB at time are in prison. They will probably have torture but they will tell who made them do it (this is how they found body). The big suspect is Rade Markovic who is serving 7 year sentance for Vuk Draskovic asasination try. Point people make is there was no discipline at all in DB or Markovic know or order assasination of Stambolic because he could beat Milosevic. Mira Markovic was very angry at idea, Rade Markovic was close to her. Mira Markovic is now on run hiding somewhere. Police want to question Mira. But key is now Rade. Will he confess and say if he was given order and who? Now official are given right to contact Milosevic. Milosevic by way blamed Stambolic family for not informing police more quickly and promise Gligorov that he know nothing, nothing at all.

  Serbian public are expecting more 'unsolve' cases to be solve and think why it took so long.

  JSO by way has been closed down after they say the guy who killed Djindjic was deputy leader. Even back 2001 I knew those ones were criminals. What happened was they got reward for loyalty. Many were member of irregular force in Bosnia, Croatia killing civilians. These were same one in 1996 demonstration beating me in ordinary clothes close to Republic Square. They were same ones doing deals selling weapons to enemy of Serbs to make profit on batlefield. (This is documented). They were same ones selling drugs making deal with Albanian drug and women gangs. These one never loved Serbia they only love money, power, to kill.

  They were disease on Serbian society. The worst time was when there was no war because they would all come back to Belgrade causing trouble.

  Of course I do not pretend to be friend of Milosevic but any way you look at Stambolic case from begining make some difficult question about Milosevic smell very bad.
  
  Arandjel P V
  Srbija

• Saturday March 29, 2003 at 10:19 am
  Arandjel I am glad you are back, I was beginning to get worried.

  From Andy: “I love America. I am completely devoted to the U.S. Constitution, but so help me God I hate and despise these politicians who have hijacked my country, and endeavor to deceive its people.” Andy my feelings exactly. That is why I keep saying this is MY country, it does not only belong to the Washington elite it belongs to all of us.

  In my prior post, I did mention that I had seen only a small part of Daniel Elsburg and Bill Kristol on Cspan. Still if I had my “rathers” it would be Elsburg over Kristol. In fact I would take Mussolini over Kristol.

  As for the protesters? Whatever their reason, I thank them. I am one of them and I protested the bombing of Bosnia and Serbia as hard and long as I could. If you happened to see Bill Moyers “Now” on PBS Friday you might have seen the protesters in Portland, Oregon who are protesting the war and one reason for that is the lack of funds for the schools and BIG money for a war that should not be. What about Ramsey Clark? What if there was only silence from everyone and all you heard was the drone of the voices of Retired Generals who as I understand it, most of them have a monetary stake in this war.

  To the initials in Wisconsin:

  You ask if I support the troops? I consider this phrase a cheap shot by those who want war.I want the troops to come home safely. Preferably right now. Send the inspectors in again to search for weapons of mass destruction.

  My family served when called in war time and peace time. The last to go served “eight years” in peace time, and the last in war served two tours of duty in Vietnam. For that reason I am connected to those troops. If you do not share that same experience you would not know what I am talking about. Bill Kristol thought 26 American casualties a drop in the bucket, I on the other hand saw pictures of three of these young men and was saddened for their families ...we are connected..... “the illegitimate president avoided war and these three died for him.”

  A few days ago, a Republican judge ruled that 90,000 retired steel workers could be cut off from their medical previously promised to them for life as one of their benefits by Bethlehem Steel. These corporations will raise and lower their flag for you when you are in combat but then how much do they care afterwards? They move their factories to any country that can promise them a few more dollars. They are in my opinion the very worse of flag wavers.Arianna Huffington has a good name for them.

  You know what Wisconsin? I consider myself the real American, the one George Washington, Abraham Lincoln and John Adams spoke to.

  See Public Integrity.org. for more on the following:

  Special Report Advisors of Influence: Nine Members of the Defense Policy Board Have Ties to Defense Contractors

  (WASHINGTON, March 28, 2003) Richard Perle, who resigned as chairman of a Pentagon advisory group after questions were raised about his work for companies with business before the Defense Dept., is not the only member of the group with potential conflicts of interest. Of the 30 members of the Defense Policy Board, at least nine have ties to companies that have won more than $76 billion in defense contracts in 2001 and 2002. Four members are registered lobbyists, one of whom represents two of the three largest defense contractors. >>
  
  Kathryn Love
  SJC
  USA

• Saturday March 29, 2003 at 10:39 am
  

  "If we define an American fascist as one who in case of conflict puts money and power ahead of human beings, then there are ubdoubtedly several million fascists in the United States, may be encountered in Wall Street, Main Stret, or Tobacco Road"

  Vice-President Wallace, 1944
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Shangrila

• Saturday March 29, 2003 at 10:48 am
  So was I Kathryn but even if nobody miss me somebody should write from Serbia and Milan is not around. Most of time will just read some informative posts. Argument is not of interest to me. Anyway this is connected with 'our' Srebrenica story.

  http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/2895801.stm

  And please nobody try to hang me for posting this BBC site report. I make no comment about report iteslf or if accurate but it talk about something like 600 bodies in grave that are found close to Zvornik. Of course nobody can say now who bodies they are but this will go small distance to explain strange number 'games' that confused us so far
  
  Arandjel P V
  Srbija

• Saturday March 29, 2003 at 11:55 am
  KL
  Bill Moyers is the ultra liberal, and yes I saw his program of 'fat' 12yr old girls marching for money. Well, they ain't getting any of mine.

  Wherever I've lived, public schools were supported by 'local' taxes. Parochial schools are supported by parishioners. This has worked well in that it provides for some separation of 'school' and 'state'. Now that Uncle Sam has his foot in the door , history is being rewritten, PC is replacing common sense and our education system is starting the resemble Mao's China.

  If we can feed and educate ourselves here, the Oregonians can likewise. Reagan was absolutely right in wanting to dump the Department of Education.
  
  J P
  USA.Wis

• Saturday March 29, 2003 at 12:18 pm
  Wisconsin:

  I have to rush.

  Short and sweet

  There is an Ann Tyler novel and I can barely remember exactly what the wording was. The young woman character has a sickly son and he is rushed to the hospital and the nursing staff rushes to assist him. The young woman observing all the rushing around and saving lives thinks, “if Martians were to come down and see all this they might think we were a good caring people but they would know better.” Forgive me because it has been a long time since I read this novel, but your post brought this to mind. ,p> You painted a lovely picture of yourself. For those who read this site and are not living in America, may I say to you, we do not all share the views of Wisconsin. The Martians would be right in some cases.

  Arandjel:

  I am not very fast on the computer, I will find the site and read it, I promise.
  
  Kathryn Love
  SJC
  USA

• Saturday March 29, 2003 at 1:55 pm
  

  Recently it was revealed by daily “Novosti” that shortly before October elections in 2000, Ivan Stambolic traveled secretly to Sofia, Bulgaria. Stambolic was going to attend a meeting called by very important politicians representing NATO countries where strategy to overthrow Milosevic’s government was on agenda. The meeting took place, but according to Serbian sources, even today it’s too sensitive to reveal the names of those people without embarrassing their governments.

  NATO representatives asked Stambolic to announce his candidacy for parliamentary elections in October 2000. Stambolic accepted the offer under one condition: that all DOS leaders anonymously back up his candidacy. He requested from Americans and Europeans to talk with Djindjic, Draskovic and all other opposition members-that-mattered, as he believed that the only way to win was by firmly uniting all opposition.

  What can be said about this? Only one year after bloody war in Yugoslavia ended, here we have an overly ambitious politician committing basically an act of treason. Yugoslavian security agencies probably knew about this. As emotions were still running high due to many civilian causalities and enormous material damage that Serbs sustained, it’s possible that some rouge elements in those agencies decided to act on it’s own.

  My gut feeling based on Slobo’s demeanor at the Hague, is that he personally has nothing to do with that.

  Knowing how strong Djindjic personal ambitions were, another possibility is that backed by Germans, Zoran and his goons hit Stambolic.

  In Balkan's politics, nothing is as it appears to be. Will we ever find out what really happened?

  
  
  Dusom Sarajlija
  USA

• Saturday March 29, 2003 at 2:26 pm
  Yes David, Jari is taking a break, only fair since he has been a prolific contributor on this forum. I didn’t mean that you were a pyromaniac Jari. That comment was directed at Uncle Sam. It would be kind of fun to visit Milan in Sombor as David suggested so Jari come back and lets plan to sing GANGE in Sombor.I will tech you Gange. I still remember some from my childhood. “Druze Tito ljubicice bela tebe voli omladina cela” or we could sing “Drug se Tito u gace polito”

  J.P. you speak of Christian values that as you state “made this country great”. Please explain those values to the African Americans and the Native people, particularly to the Native people, whose population was decimated by the arrival of those values. Howard Zinn in his “Peoples History of the United States “provides evidence that there were close to 100 million natives in the New World when Columbus came and within three hundred years their number was less than a million.

  JP writes that killing Iraqi civilians is like pulling teeth and it may hurt in order to get at the rotten tooth Saddam. The problem here JP is that you must first control the infection and the UN doctor was doing that but the Americans killed the doctor and now the ‘quack’ from the White House is using snake oil, brimstone and fire, and voodoo and the horse and the sparrow economics to rob Iraq of its wealth.

  JP just a bit of a correction re WWII. US declared war on Germany not the other way around. As for aid to the Brits and the French, you seem to forget Cash and Carry and Lend Lease which ended your depression. It seems that this Iraqi adventure is being used to camouflage the ills (mutual fund scams, economic downturn, and manifesto for the 21st century) on the home front.

  JP it was USA that created both the League and the UN. The League was high jacked by the French and the Brits and under the umbrella of collective security they colonized the Middle East so welcome to today’s problems in Iraq. America did not like playing by Br/Fr. rules so they took their ball and went home .The same was true with the UN, Roosevelt’s baby. His vision was that UN would be dominated by the Big Boys, which it has been, but as the third world had too many painful tooth extractions they started to kill the dentists. Welcome to Sep. 11th. So now Uncle Sam wants to redefine the UN as ‘If you are not with us you are against us’. According to Rumsfeld a new set of rules will be drawn up but Uncle Sam and those that want to play may join and those that don’t will get the Iraqi treatment.

  David, JP ignores the wars of American colonialism as he wants us to think ‘americano’ this was anti communism and excusable. What he fails to understand is that the fear of the Soviets was an American creation and if it was not there they would have had to invent it to justify their colonial plunder.

  David the Media in the West is the American army of deception, particularly the CNN which is no different than the Iraqi media. The only difference is that we know the reason for the Iraqi lies and who is behind them. Canadian Media provides coverage in order to defend our supposed non involvement but in a very subtle way they feed us misinformation, For every program that looks neutral they rebroadcast Saddam’s atrocities ten times. Every action by the Americans is qualified by “They are investigating civilian casualties” or “ there is evidence that Iraqis are killing their own people to control them, or every American death ‘Iraqis are not fighting by the rules or the death are caused by accident or friendly fire’.

  posters, I wish you would not use the term ‘communism’ so loosely since communism has NEVER been practiced anywhere in the world ever, other than possibly some Native tribes in early America.

  JP writes about American education as a glowing example of success as he writes “This has worked well”. What nonsense, particularly when the wellness comes from public schools being ‘supported by 'local' taxes”’. This factor has created in America ‘ghetto’ schools that have overcrowded classrooms, caused by a low tax base in poor urban areas while the wealthy urban areas build stadiums for football.
  
  Walter Trkla
  Kamloops BC
  Canada

• Saturday March 29, 2003 at 4:42 pm
  Pasic
  I would agree with David that Stambolic politics were “wish washy”.
  Milosevic came to power because Serbia was in deep constitutional crisis and relations to its provinces who got more power over Serbia than Serbian parliament.

  You are giving to much credit to Stambolic for bringing Milosevic into power. What about Draza Markovic?
  However there was no one person that brought Milosevic into power it was deep crisis that were created by his predecessors.
  If you analyze politics of Milosevic and Stambolic you have to go back at least to 1970 were 31 Professors were dismissed from their posts in University of Belgrade, starting with the dismissal of Milos Zanko..
  
  Pero Peric
  Canada

• Saturday March 29, 2003 at 5:57 pm
  kkskssk
  
  njhnjh kkk
  kkk
  kkkk

• Saturday March 29, 2003 at 6:22 pm
  

  Dusom

  Stambolic wanted the "unknown" representatives of the foreign interests to organise it so that DOS agreed to back him for the presidency (we know who has offices in Sofia and Budapest for the purpose of establishing democracy in YU).Dos didn't agree. It is possible that he may have run without Dos support. The net result is that the Opposition to Milosevic would have been further fractured and in order to avoid further fragmentation he may have been eliminated. Similarly with respect to the Draskovic attempt. After all, Draskovic was proving to be a problem for Dos as well because he pulled a host of votes, all of which favoured Milosevic's position by creating the impression of further disunity in Dos. Consequently, who would have benefitted the most, Milosevic or Dos, if Stambolic and Draskovic went missing and a united front could be presented by Dos? The consolidation of Dos was only enhanced by Stambolic's removal maybe?

  Arandjel

  Re wishy washy politics of Stambolic, Pero Peric sums it up for you rather succinctly. Milosevic came up as a result of the constitutional crisis in Serbia where Serbia could NOT veto a Kosovo regional decision but Kosovo COULD veto a Serbian parliament decision.

  Kathryn

  You're absolutely right. The servants have become the masters and the masters have become the servants. Shades of Animal Farm, eh?

  Walter

  JP could use some more reading material which his education system seems to have limited. He may be interested to know that even in the very early 1900s the US establishment was conducting purges of its institutions and streets by organising posse hunts for "radicals" and "anarchists", specifically of "utopians" (socialists and communists). And the Cold War hadn't even been dreamt about as Lenin just arrived on the scene. Sort of a McCarthy-ist prelude. And speaking of McCarthy, what about the US government banning and publicly burning literature from people like Wilhelm Reich etc in the 1950s. Was that not a somewhat mirror image of Hitler's burning of books maybe? Of course that doesn't make it into the curriculum. Nor do works like Makavejev's "Mysteries of the Organism" which comment critically on the socio-political elements of capitalism and communism.

  As for how the US administration likes to spread democracy, the BBC just broadcast a tit bit about the US sending South Africa a diplomatic note about how unwelcome any comment in the UN against the attack on Iraq would be and that it would be considered as action against the US and its interests, AND would attract its own "consequences". They questioned how many other countries received similar notes which our FREE media didn't tell us about. I wonder how many Americans know of or have heard about the Monroe Doctrine and really understand its implications and what its extension means in a post Cold War world?
  
  David
  Australia

• Saturday March 29, 2003 at 6:48 pm
  WT
  Educational values are explained to all, many opt out, many assimilate. Some in the ghettos think it's too 'whitish' to 'achieve' in school, enough so that their average achievement is in the tank. Native people have it all, they too assimilate, have special 'casino' rights , no taxes etc. If anyone of them prefers sitting on a reservation, that's their choice. Just like 'gypsies' prefer life riding around in cart and others have a preference for 'street' basketball instead of 'homework'.

  IMO there never was a sustained 100 million native population in the 'new world'. Its' population was stagnant for centuries. 'Artifacts' abound indicating human propensities came, and went, over and over. Remember a while back in Switzerland, some ice melted, and they found a 7000 yr old mummified 'hunter', with bow and arrow and skin clothing? Almost exactly what the 'Pilgrims' found at the Plymouth Rock. Just think, in the new world, in 7000 yrs, no books, maybe some hieroglyphics but no measurable progress! It mirrors the Islamists' controllers of the middle east, in 1400 yrs they sat on history, there was none, it's still burkas and donkeys. They call that their golden age, want to take the ME back to it, and attempt to force it on us. No way jose.

  The best thing that ever happened to Native Americans was that 'civilization' was brought to them. Soon the Iraqis will reap the same benefit.
  
  J P
  USA.Wis

• Saturday March 29, 2003 at 6:52 pm
  If George W and Blair are such democrats, what's their beef with Chirac? Is Chirac not following the wishes of the French population? Is that not his job, to represent the will of the French people? Hell, he may be more of a democrat than we are!

  We'd better slap some boycotts/sanctions on such ratbags, or at the least spend some money on making sure they get rid of them or go along with our wishes next time. The same goes for Germany, Russia, China, India, Pakistan, Venezuela, Chile, Argentina, Vietnam, Somalia, Panama, Grenada, Haiti and anybody else who doesn't agree with us. And if that doesn't work, we can always organise another YU or Iraq or any of the dozens of other countries we've organised in the last few decades. If there's one thing I hate is a son of a bitch, unless of course he's my son of a bitch.
  
  David
  Australia

• Saturday March 29, 2003 at 6:59 pm
  You miss the point. Maybe those people didn't want progress! Maybe they were happy the way they were.

  Maybe YOU wanted them to make progress so it was OK to exterminate them? That's like coming into my house and telling me how to arrange my furniture to suit you or else! A touch draconian of you maybe? A touch arrogant of you maybe? A touch racist of you maybe? A touch authoritarian of you maybe?

  Which is it?
  
  David
  Australia

• Saturday March 29, 2003 at 7:03 pm
  Previous point was to JP USA Wis
  
  
  

• Saturday March 29, 2003 at 9:04 pm
  Andy Wilcoxson

  Can't find it with a quick "Google", but George Washington also warned against the tyranny of a rotating "democracy": a tyranny masked by the facade of the rotation in and out of power of always the same two established parties, presumably both backed, as ever, by substantially the same powerful interests, with a much lesser rotation between those interests. Chiquita banana, anyone?

  It appears that this tyranny of rotating "democracy" is precisely what the US has become.

  Can anyone help or confirm such a statement by George Washington? I would like to bookmark a link to the actual statement. I'm pretty sure about it, as I heard it pretty recently I think on an American history program on the PBS University TV channel. Thanks.

  I think your condemnation of the anti-"war" protestors on a simplistic partisan basis is way off the mark. And then some. Sure, that might apply to a few of them, but consigning them all wholesale to that basket is illogical, ill-thought out; probably wishful thinking on your part.

  _____________

  Anna P

  I have no truc for Gore, who as one of those most enthusiastically pushing Clinton into the "war" with Yugoslavia, is just as much, if not more, a War-Criminal. It seems, however, that Bush is trying to prove that each succeeding President must out-do the previous one in their efforts to commit war crimes.

  I think you're assertion that a President Gore would have intitiated the "war" on Iraq is completely wrong. This aggression was wholly a creation of Richard Perle, and his cronies on the DPB, the Wolfowitz Doctrine", and the rest of "Project the for New American Century" bunch of Fascists. In addition of course, as Dubya has reminded us, "Saddam tried to kill my dad". Of course, he doesn't remind us that his dad tried to kill Saddam first.

  The point here is that none of these people would be in their unelected positions if the Supreme Court didn't consist of a prepoderance of partisan gung-ho rightist Republicans and Gore's election win had actually been recognised.

  In relation to the above, the Initials from Wisconsin's assertion that the unelection of Bush was in spite of "massive Democratic fraud" because "it was in the papers" is truly worthy of the dreaded "Free"Republic web-site, and so hardly worthy of comment. Nevertheless, I shall comment. ;-)

  The admirable Greg Palast has documented that the ghoulish Katherine Harris, Jeb Bush, et alia conspired to remove 60,000 primarily black voters from the electoral role in Florida. This was done not just by removing those actually not legally not entitled to vote in certain districts, but also those with similar names, and other various tawdry techniques.

  Moreover, most of those illegally removed from the register then were still not back on for Jeb's later gubanatorial election, and still aren't, as far as I know.

  There was indeed election fraud in Florida, Republican fraud, and it's still ongoing. The current US Administration truly has about as much democratic validity as does that of Saddam Hussein.

  " ... it was in all the papers", Initials says. Oh dear. The NYT? the National Review (Kristol's rag)? the Miami Herald? Give me a break.

  With regard to Initials aptly described cheap-shot exhorting "support for troops", I think one of the things that annoys foreigners is how too many Americans pull together when "their" troops go to "war"; no matter how bad, unwise or just plain immoral the war. Illogical, as Spock would say. I use the double-quote marks sarcastically, as those troops are definitely Bush's, Perle's, Wolfowitz's et alia's play-things, and no more the American people's than Blair's play-things are mine, or the rest of the British peoples', or than Howard's play-things "belong to" the Antipodean Dave.

  Even the anti-"war" people in the US are doing this now: "I support the troops, but I'm against the war". What tosh.

  If they think a war is wrong, can they be that confused about which side they're on, given that the far better alternative of saving lives and letting UNSCOM do its work was impatiently curtailed? Has it always got to be circling the wagons time again, "America right or wrong" or as Bush Snr. once said: "I will never apologize for the United States of America - I don't care what the facts are."? And keep that pesky Michael Moore away from those circled wagons. American first and Human Being second, again? - or can it not sometimes be the other way around? Or is it all just expedient politicking, giving an uncontroversial expected war-time appearance of goose-stepping automaton-like into line? May be that's getting to be the only way to survive in the US? What do I know. For myself, in an equal war I'd take no sides. In an unequal war, however, I have to say favouritism for the aggressed against, more especially if they're looking like the under-dog, and against the aggressor; as I was indeed wholly behind the expulsion of the aggressor Iraqi forces from Kuwait in 1991.

  If the impossible happens, and Iraq actually wins, (which would be a very bloody Vietnam type win - mostly, as then, the blood of those aggressed against), I now feel that they would be fully entitled to take the old colonialist Brit. created artifact of Kuwait (the 19th? Iraqi state) as an undisputable clear and present danger to their national security. The US, ridiculously, makes that claim, on hugely fake pretexts, concerning countries on the opposite side of the World from them!

  Given JP's posts on these topics, his point that Reagan was "right" about wanting to abolish the Dept. of Education is well taken. ;-)

  Back on topic:-

  ;-)

  No doubt the Hague "Court" is lining up to add Stambolic's demise to their long list of charges against Milosevic. I doubt, if there's actually anything to it, that any claims of covert action to suppress a traitor would be looked on too fondly by the ICTY. After all, Milosevic apparently wasn't even allowed the overt actions conventionally followed by leaders of countries, let alone covert cloak-and-dagger stuff. Perish the thought.

  Dave, don't you think Australia would have been a more apt location for the ICTY? Wot with all the Kangaroos you already have down there. ;-)
  
  Dennis Revell
  USA

• Saturday March 29, 2003 at 10:14 pm
  STAMBOLIC AT TIME OF DEATH PRESENTED NO ELECTORAL THREAT TO MILOSEVIC

  As noted by Dusom and others, when Stambolic disappeared at the end of August 2000, Kostunica had already been chosen as the main opposition candidate. Stambolic had previously been considered as an opposition candidate, but at the time of his disappearance / death he had obviously stopped being a potential electoral threat to Milosevic. However, it is irresponsibly reported in parts of the perennially misinformed western mainstream press (and apparently also in the Serbian press as implied by Arandjel) that Milosevic had an interest in Stambolic's removal at the time of the latter's death because he could run as the united opposition candidate. For example, here is a quote from the Guardian (contact: politics.editor@guardianunlimited.co.uk): 'Mr Milosevic is believed to have ordered his removal because of fears that Stambolic might run against him in the Yugoslav presidential elections in October that year.'

  I often write letters to media publishing easily refutable statements such as the above and I suggest to other forum participants to do the same in this case.
  
  Pythagoras C
  Greece

• Saturday March 29, 2003 at 10:58 pm
  a² + b² = c²:-

  Kind of agree about refuting mainstream press and other mainstream media statements. But do you really think it does any good?

  I think even the decent ones have shown that they're more than reluctant to back-track on story-lines they've already heavily invested their reputations in. What kind of responses, if any, have you got?

  The Daily Mirror in the UK has been about the best on the Iraq "war" outrage:-

  http://images.icnetwork.co.uk/upl/mirror/jan2003/1/4/000A6517-8CF6-1E37-8BD780BFB6FA0000.jpg

  and some more "Iraq" front pages here:

  http://www.mirror.co.uk/frontpages/

  But ... try to get the Daily Mirror to re-investigate it's 1992 "Belsen 92" front-page headline, accompanied by the obligatory photo' of Fikret Alic in front of the fence at Trnoplje:

  http://www.terravista.pt/guincho/2104/199810/mirror.gif

  Good luck.

  BTW, anybody know of any follow up interviews with Mr. Fikret Alic? How is he now? I'm particularly interested in how fat he may have become. Especially in view of the fact some of his companions at Trnoplje seemed very well fed, if not paunchy. Anybody know?
  
  Dennis Revell
  USA

• Saturday March 29, 2003 at 11:47 pm
  Dennis,

  Of course I know all that about the election. I just can't seem to get worked up about for 2 reasons: (1) I couldn't help but be relieved that the war criminal Gore was not elected (at that time Bush wasn't a war criminal yet) and (2) I think quibbling about that number of votes is absurd in a country with as many voters as the U.S. has. I would think that any presidential election where the results were that close -- even a 100,000 vote difference is miniscule --- should have been declared null and void and we should have to vote until someone gets a very, very clear majority. As far as I'm concerned, Gore did not win -- it was a tie. Neither of them should have been declared the winner without at least one more election day. Discussing this issue is entirely a waste of time, an exercise in futility.

  As for Andy's attitude about the protesters, I think his observations are right on the mark regarding the groundswell of opposition. There are among today's protestors also those who protested the Kosovo (or rather Serbia) attack, but a lot of influence against the war is coming from Hollywood types and we all know their noses have been indellibly died brown from being rubbed against Clinton's behind. I maintain that there would not be this protest now had Clinton (or Gore) started this mess. A lot of the protest is or at least began as a political point of view.
  
  Anna P
  California

• Saturday March 29, 2003 at 11:52 pm
  By the wayy...please, nobody needs to explain the electoral college to me. I just think it stinks.
  
  Anna P
  California

• Sunday March 30, 2003 at 12:13 am
  The most stupid thing is beleive that West would support Stambolic (as old fashioned communist or even progressive communist) against Milosevic as West thought remnant of communisam.

  J.P.
  If somebody takes all of your properties, friends and families lives and your pride would you strive for progress?
  
  Pero Peroc
  Canada

• Sunday March 30, 2003 at 12:36 am
  Dennis,

  The forces of freedom and democracy have rid Bosnia of TB which was part of the biological WMD arsenal of the Serbs. Hence, Fikret Alic has now finally been able to put on some weight.

  The new Pope of Sarajevo, Paddy Ashdown, said that despite Fikret's disproportionate weight, freedom and democracy in Bosnia has managed to "ethically" cleanse him and Bosnia of his ailment. There's plenty of fat cats there right now.

  As for sending the ICTY down under, by all means. The further under the better. We have lots of kangaroos and wombats here. We may as well have a few more dingbats too.
  
  David
  Australia

• Sunday March 30, 2003 at 12:38 am
  PP
  I'm not sure of your point, but I would say yes. It would be hard as in Job, chapter whatever. I don't believe Serbia has lost its pride, certainly not Milosevic.
  
  J P
  USA.Wis

• Sunday March 30, 2003 at 12:42 am
  Pero Peric

  I think you're wrong about the "West" not supporting Stambolic. They'd support my dead grandmother as long as it suited their objectives of getting rid of Milosevic and doing what they like in the Balkans. The precondition is always that the supportee kiss their butts and do as he's told.
  
  David
  Australia

• Sunday March 30, 2003 at 12:50 am
  

  JP USA Wis

  You miss the point. Maybe those people didn't want progress! Maybe they were happy the way they were. Maybe YOU wanted them to make progress so it was OK to exterminate them? That's like coming into my house and telling me how to arrange my furniture to suit you or else! A touch draconian of you maybe? A touch arrogant of you maybe? A touch racist of you maybe? A touch authoritarian of you maybe? Which is it?
  
  David
  Australia

• Sunday March 30, 2003 at 1:22 am
  AP BELGRADE, Serbia-Montenegro (AP) - Serbia intends to make it easier to extradite suspected war criminals to a United Nations tribunal in the Netherlands, Prime Minister Zoran Zivkovic said Saturday.

  AP, Reuters, and everyone else reporting:

  Milosevic‘s wife believed to be hiding in Russia is wanted by the Serb police.

  I would suggest to all Serbs catch the first plane, train, bus or walk to Russia. You may be next.

  ? Well lookie here, Bosnian Serbs are spying.

  ? Reuters: “A top Western official in Bosnia, United Nations High Representative Paddy Ashdown, confirmed that authorities had found evidence of Bosnian Serb intelligence espionage and said it was the gravest violation of the Dayton deal since the end of war.”

  Remember pompous Paddy when Milosevic cross examined him? Well.....sorry but the English... they all come across as slightly pompous, what is it about them?

  Reuters reports:

  “Local media suggested that Ashdown might sack Mirko Sarovic, the Serb chairman of Bosnia's tripartite presidency, who was the top Bosnian Serb official at the time of the illegal exports to Iraq.”

  Did anyone sack Bill Clinton for illegal arms from Iraq to Bosnia via Bin Laden. I should know how to spell that spook’s name, Bin Laden’s not Clinton, but I get mixed up with these characters. Sometimes I just get mixed up when I try to figure out what is going on, bomb here, bomb there.

  Today I purchased a clock that was made in Yugoslavia. Since there is no longer a Yugoslavia, do you think this will increase in value? I also have an old blanket made in “Vukovar, Yugoslavia” and believe me it is a good one. One problem..... it is a Christmas blanket and who uses a Christmas blanket except when it is Christmas.

  That reminds me of a time when I found a real pretty glass bottle of wine. It did not have the regular wine bottle shape, so I looked it over for the beauty of the bottle and low and behold “Made in Yugoslavia.” Now that was a time when “Yugoslavia” was a semi dirty word here, because of the dome shaped churches looking suspiciously like the ones in Russia so I was real surprised to find this jewel. I bought the pretty bottle and brought it home to my Dad. My Dad had a grin from ear to ear not only because it was wine but because it was made in Yugoslavia. We all smiled as he opened the pretty bottle but he made the mistake of opening it in the middle of the kitchen floor and bang, bang, the bottle exploded, there was red wine on the ceiling, on the stove, table, refrigerator, everywhere. I think my Dad said something unkind about you Yugoslavs because he muttered something in Serbian as he looked down at his wine splattered shoes.

  Well we civilized the Indians and initials in Wisconsin thinks it is one of the accomplishments we should be very proud of. Well....it was just the other day that I said to myself, “Those Indians are awfully lucky, look at all the casinos they have, and they are living in a country that allows them to live on parcels of land called “Reservations.” We could have taken it all! Look what they did to poor Custer. (Oh my God, the clock just went off, the shrillest ringing I have ever heard and I cannot stop it....why did it go off? Oh there it is. I hope that does not happen in the middle of the night.) Back to the Indians. They took advantage of a Crazy man those Indians.

  The Martians are looking down on us and I hope they know we are not all like Zoran Zivkovic, or the fat man, who calls himself Rev. Falswell , the illegitimate president and his dwarfs.Remember we have Jimmy Carter, Ramsey Clark,Mandella, Belafonte, Vladi, Kucinich,Jari, millions of protesters around the world,and who else, speak up, well I will list my spouse here even though at times I want to... well never mind... his ethinicty is “Plymouth Rock“ and he likes Indians because they gave us something to celebrate. ....Thanksgiving. So far we are thankful that there is not another superpower around to bomb us for weapons of mass destruction. Damn thankful!

  . Borrowed from an old movie, “Sometimes I think if you ever smile, we will declare it a national holiday.

  TO ALMOST ALL SERBS IN THE FORMER YUGOSLAVIA, THE CIRCLE TURNS, GOODNIGHT, GOD BLESS, AND WATCH OUT FOR EVIL SPIRITS, SOMETIMES, THEY COME OUT AT NIGHT.

  
  
  Kathryn Love
  SJC
  USA

• Sunday March 30, 2003 at 1:28 am
  Moderator:

  Could you give us wider margins.

  Thank you.

  
  
  Kathryn Love
  SJC
  USA

• Sunday March 30, 2003 at 1:48 am
  David

  Uncle Sam came into my house and insisted that my 5 kids go to school. Good idea or not?

  
  
  J P
  USA,Wis

• Sunday March 30, 2003 at 2:23 am
  DR Massive Democratic fraud is par for the party. I'll put it in a couple of nutshells.

  The 'media' falsely, prematurely, called the 'election' for Gore, then later flipped and called it for W. Beautiful Katherine Harris was set to tally all the precincts on a date designated by law.

  The votes weren't there for the Democrats, so they petitioned the court for selected recounts in Democratic precincts. A 10 member, Democratic appointed Florida Supreme Court, illegally inserted itself and granted a couple of extensions.

  In broad daylight, and 3 recounts, with mischievous Democrat counters they still couldn't steal the election and beat W, even when they threw out the military ballots. Upshot is W won.

  The US Supreme Court stepped in and yanked the chain on the rogue Florida courts, rightly so. The constitution says the president will be elected by the electoral congress. One vote, by designees, for each Representative and Senator. And the state legislators can even appoint the electorals.

  KP
  It's a good system, you always have a president on a day certain. If the vote is a tie, I'd be for flipping a coin! I think I've laid out case but there are many more points to make.

  I get a little depressed when contributors to the forum unjustly indict and convict W's election win, yet they want justice for Milo. This 'selected' versus 'elected' BS is right out of the Nice May handbook. Let's be a little consistent.
  
  J P
  USA.Wis

• Sunday March 30, 2003 at 2:25 am
  What happened? Fixed?
  
  J P
  USA.Wis

• Sunday March 30, 2003 at 2:35 am
  When Bill Clinton and George Bush took America into the last two wars the concept of American democracy and the direction of its foreign policy died. Their administration subverted the vision of the American Revolution and The Bill of Rights. He invoked the idea of civic responsibility and with this changed American democracy to serve the interest of those who wanted America in the war. Institutions that were charged with protecting the democratic rights, manipulated the law in order to promote the international goals of big business particularly the oil companies. While those who opposed these goals, particularly the ones whose ideas represent the political left, or those who are anti war are both persecuted and prosecuted by the system which should protect their right of dissent.

  Bush’s vision of an international role for the American government has set a precedent for political and intervention in economics and politics of other nations. This is called pre-emptive strike to end a threat or to control resources. Bringing America into war against Islam, Bush has changed the relationship between the government and the people and at the same time redefined democracy in America. This change will alter the political, economic and cultural life in America. America will live in a century of fear because Bush has created many hostile regimes by this invasion.

  Publicly, Bush stated that America is motivated by the highest level of international justice. As he declared war on Iraq he said “that America was moved by the highest humanitarian motives, her aim being to democratize Iraq.” In order to do this Bush and his predecessors have Prussianized America. A Prussian state is characterized by extreme nationalism and militarism and all its national institutions are mobilized to serve its military interests. The first institution to become a victim of this militarization of America is the justice system. This can be seen in recent arrests and trials of those that look Arab and those accused of supporting the same terrorists that Bush and the CIA supported in the past.

  The cornerstone of democracy is a justice system that is free from political influence. The rule of law, due process, and an independent judiciary are cornerstones of a civilized society. Those who supposedly finance terrorism or oppose American Vision for the Twenty First Century are denied fundamental principles of justice by the courts. They are charged with conspiracy against the state, genocide and other trumped up charges. Tribunals are used for all others but Americans because Americans see themselves above international law.

  Prominent Americans, who speak against the war, are vilified, fired from their jobs and threatened with death. This serves as deterrence to those who opposed this war but fear of losing their livelihood keeps them silent. Shame on you Bush! The state manipulates and uses the media to silence the opposition to war. For example, many Americans who want to be more vocal anti war activists are silenced by the Espionage Act just for writing and speaking against the war. This Act was introduces by Woodrow Wilson, and is still part of American jurisprudence,

  The Espionage Act, which became law in 1917, had as its primary aim to silence the opponent of the war and in the process, break up the socialist and union movement in America. Maximum penalty under this Act was twenty years in jail. One clause in the Act gave broad powers of arrest to the police of anyone who criticized the policies of the government. One of many victims of the Espionage Act was the socialist leader Eugene Debs. He gave one of his impromptu speeches standing on a street corner, after visiting colleagues who was in jail. After criticizing German militarism he said “Wars throughout history have been waged for conquest and plunder … And that is war in a nutshell. The master class has always declared the wars; the subject class has always fought the battles.” He was arrested by the police because draft age men might have been present. This was deemed as obstructing conscription which was against the Espionage Act. Debs spent thirty two months in prison. Many of his supporters, who were not as well known, received the maximum sentence of twenty years. The Espionage Act which the Supreme Court said protected America from ‘clear and present danger’ is still part of American law. Since the Korean War it has been used to silence critics of the Vietnam War as well as force members of the Communists Party of the United States to register as agents of a foreign power. The act was also used to silence the populist press and progressive editors who dared write anti-government material. Progressive newspaper offices were thrashed by government sponsored vigilante groups. The mainstream press, on the other hand, was encouraged to promote government policy.

  While the opposition to the Iraq war is ignored, the mainstream press helps to create an atmosphere of fear for possible opponent of the war. The Mainstream media by its bias reporting encouraged its readers to be patriot and not to question. The government in order to ‘manufacture consent’ “sharply narrowed the range of “acceptable” politics” has started a concerted verbal attack on various anti-war groups, prominent individuals such as the Dixie Chicks, Michel Moore, Susan Sarandon and others, as unpatriotic and un-American. At the same time they have created a coalition with CNN, CBC and ABC who are responsible for dissemination of information favorable to the government, a form of propaganda which we see in action today during national emergencies such as September eleventh, the wars in the Middle East, the Balkans and Afghanistan. The expression of national will through parades, flag waving and mass rallies is used to isolate critics under the guise of patriotism.

  Control of public information and its manipulation does not stop with silencing the Progressive thinkers. The government brings into line the mainstream media to support government policies. The government also extends its influence into the film industry, schools and universities. Professors who opposed government policy are fired while the school children are encouraged to pledge allegiance to the nation. Hollywood producers produce films on war and the Holocaust and are played constantly to justify the American way. Actors are afraid to voice opposition because they know that their next film depends on what they say.

  Fear of terrorism, has led to an organized government campaign against foreigners and internationalists. Police are ordered to raid magazine offices, public houses, mosques and meetings of any liberal or Arab organization in search of subversive evidence. On this evidence, thousands are arrested and deported, even though the Constitution does not permit deportation of aliens.

  Left wing writers see the Iraq War as a capitalist war. Left wing activists write that wars focused people’s attention on an imaginary enemy that was created by the propertied classes. They say, by focusing people’s attention on a foreign enemy they forgot their misery, socialism and revolutionary ideas.

  American participation in the Iraq War is motivated by economic considerations; however, the people of America are told that they were fighting to keep the world safe for democracy. Furthermore, large investments made by American oil companies need to be safeguarded by American control of the Middle East. Bush’s administration used emergency powers to bring into line political dissent even when it is achieved at the expense of democracy in America. Bush as president is a contradiction. He speaks about democracy but he imposes his will on countries of the Middle East. Bush like most politicians spoke idealistically during the election campaigns but when he gained the power of the White House he is showing his true nature. Sophocles said “No man can be truly known, in heart and hope and purpose, until the test of power and government make manifest his nature”. It is clear that George Bush is a political psychopath.
  
  Walter Trkla
  Kamloops BC
  Canada

• Sunday March 30, 2003 at 3:57 am
  Pythagoras C,

  You're right about Stambolic:

  1. Kostunica was chosen as the joint DOS candidate on AUGUST 10, 2000.

  2. Stambolic vanished on AUGUST 25, 2000. 15 days later

  3. Prior to Kostunica's nomination Stambolic was backing Goran Svilanovic as the DOS's joint candidate against Milosevic. It is obvious from the fact that he backed someone else that Stambolic didn't consider himself as a candidate.

  4. Stambolic's wife has denied that he had any intention of running for office.

  It is clear that Stambolic was absolutely no threat to Milosevic in the elections. Milosevic had no reason to have him killed.

  Unfortunately, it is more than just the uninformed Western media that is parroting the lie that Milosevic killed Stambolic because he saw him as a political threat in the elections.

  The Serbian interior minister, Dusan Mihailovic exclaimed at a press conference on March 28, 2003 that "The investigation has established that Stambolic's execution was politically motivated," describing the killing as "the greatest mystery of the former regime".

  He said: "The aim was to remove Stambolic as a possible candidate in the presidential elections and this clearly shows who might have ordered his execution."

  On the basis of this obviously false pretence the Government of Serbia is arresting key members and the leaders of the SPS and the JUL, in other words they are arresting their political opposition based on this obvious lie.
  
  Andy Wilcoxson
  Washington, United States

• Sunday March 30, 2003 at 4:08 am
  
  Another truth test for Trust-me Tony

  The piece of metal is only a foot high, but the numbers on it hold the clue to the latest atrocity in Baghdad … But the missile was guided by computers and that vital shard of fuselage was computer-coded. It can be easily verified and checked by the Americans - if they choose to do so. It reads: 30003-704ASB 7492. The letter "B" is scratched and could be an "H". This is believed to be the serial number. It is followed by a further code which arms manufacturers usually refer to as the weapon's "Lot" number. It reads: MFR 96214 09 … The piece of metal bearing the codings was retrieved only minutes after the missile exploded on Friday evening …

  Did the Iraqis kill their own people as you are trying to suggest Blair or was this an ‘Alliance of the Willing’ weapon?

  From the information above you know immediately. I won’t hold my breath for your reply.

  We have experienced such dissembling before in Serbia when refugee convoys bombed by Blair and Clinton’s forces were first blamed on Serb shells.

  Talking of shells: Evidence presented to the ICTY made great play of the fact that Milosevic used ‘disproportionate force’ in using tanks and artillery to shell KLA positions in towns and villages. Something - according to Ashdown’s evidence - the British would never do.

  The British army, and the US, apart from using a variety of bombs are now shelling Iraqi cities, towns and villages with massive civilian casualties. Milosevic was defending sovereign territory from invading Islamic terrorist forces to protect his people and judging by the outcome with very good reason. What is Blair’s reason?

  Has Judge May noted the invalidity of Ashdown and Naumanns’s testimony on the disproportionate use of force?

  Permanent Source: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/decani/message/74253
  
  Peter Taylor
  Herts/UK

• Sunday March 30, 2003 at 4:31 am
  Bravo Walter! Couldn't have put it better myself

  JP USA Wis

  You asked: Uncle Sam came into my house and insisted that my 5 kids go to school. Good idea or not? Answer: Not if they teach them what you're espousing. But if they teach them that civilisation involves some respect for other people's way of life and that one shouldn't attack others in order to take their possessions and to impose one's own values and make others conform to them, it may just be a good idea.

  Otherwise, you have no choice but to resist. Remember that, despite what Uncle Sam and his corporate media interests tell you, what Uncle Sam does at home is NOT necessarily what Uncle Sam does abroad. He's free to organise his own house as he likes, but when it comes to my house, I just might have something to say.
  
  David
  Australia

• Sunday March 30, 2003 at 6:22 am
  David

  Of course, in the US, people do have the alternate option of home schooling, in any case, attempting to relate that to the most "successful" genocide in known history, that of the North American (primarily US) natives is fatuous and bizarre to say the least.

  Of course it had nothing to do with "civilising" them. The Europeans (as they were then and as those in the US power elite primarily still are, and primarily British at that - who chose to call themselves Americans after 1776), those "Europeans" just wanted their stuff and their land. Full stop (period).

  General Barry McCaffrey, Gulf War I "hero", and current member of the dreadful, despicable, Committee for the Liberation of Iraq (CLI):-

  War Criminal!

  and:

  General Barry McCaffrey, War Criminal?

  CLI shares members with ... no prizes for guessing ... the DPB! No wonder the US doesn't want to touch the ICC.

  Iraq's "Racaq" (sic):-

  This tosh about Iraq trying to procure uranium from Niger was apparently the clincher used to persuade Congress to give Bush authorisation to wage war. As others here have pointed out, this authorisation was illegal. Jari would know the correct latin term for this -- something about not being able to abrogate a right you have even if you wanted to.
  
  Dennis Revell
  USA

• Sunday March 30, 2003 at 6:29 am
  Oh, yeah, forgot, yes, that was very good Walter. It would be hard for it to be shorter and yet convey the same.

  Grrrrr. Told you Peter, don't get me going on Blair. Grrrrrrrrrrr.
  
  Dennis Revell
  USA

• Sunday March 30, 2003 at 6:38 am
  Sorry, folks, trying to be fancy with this html stuff, first link in above messed up (one "http" too many). Try this:-

  Committee for the Liberation of Iraq (CLI)
  
  Dennis Revell
  USA

• Sunday March 30, 2003 at 8:07 am
  "In bed-ed" reporters get the run of the place in Iraq, at least where the US forces have control. Those who are not embedded get run out of places like Iraq, at least where the US forces have control. Now that's an example of a free media for you. Either you do as you're told or you get escorted out at the point of a gun. More of the "if you're not with us, you're against us" philosophy.

  I suppose it might be strategically risky for a reporter to tell the American public that the US and British forces have control of a large part of Iraq territory, mostly uninhabited desert space. But then again, I'm sure the Iraqis already knew that from some of the camels they have out on reconnaisance.

  I can't help thinking that Paddy Ashdown must be disappointed regarding his statement about British tanks etc not shelling civilians. But maybe they don't do that. Maybe they just drop 1000 lb lead confetti from 30,000 ft where it's much safer. And/or maybe they just besiege a city, shut down the electricity and destroy the water and food supply and let the inhabitants die of hunger, thirst and disease. Talk about disproportionality! Makes Paddy's testimony to the ICTY rather tennuous. I wonder whether Mr May might even stretch that to perjury or lying?
  
  David
  Australia

• Sunday March 30, 2003 at 8:21 am
  Hi David.

  Just heard on CNN (forgive me) that there are diputes as to whether the Iraqis have to pay or not for the water "aid"!

  Tanker drivers (presumably driving from the end of the new pipeline from Kuwait - what a bizarre engineering concept, carrying water from a pure salt water area, intrinsically short of water, to one that is normally naturally fed by the freshwater of rivers); anyway, those tanker drivers are asking for payment.

  The British say that's right! Payment is expected! There was somewhat obfuscatory disagreement about this from the American side - but then this is CNN, "the most trusted source in news"; whose motto should more honestly be:-

  "62,400 repetitions makes one truth" (Ack. Aldous Huxley)

  If true, I guess the Brits. are just being cruel to be kind; getting the Iraqis used to a privatised water system; that will no doubt be run by Bechtel Corporation.
  
  Dennis Revell
  USA

• Sunday March 30, 2003 at 8:58 am
  The dates for Kostunica as DOS candidate are correct. Its pity that history written diferently in West media but in Serbian media also which Im afraid I repeated in some way. Truth is so many thing happened in last many years it is easy to get cofused about order of events as citizen. But media should know better than to deceive about dates and order things happen.

  Andy and others on Stambolic. We agree that Kostunica was candidate of DOS at time of Stambolic death but point is that body was found now after questioning and probably beating of former state security men. If we accept that these men did murder or know who did (this is most credible) then only question that is left is who ordered kidnap and killing? Why was state security following Stambolic in first place if he was not threat? Were guys in DB allow to free lance or was it official business? (which make Rade Markovic as boss implicated). They will travel to Hague to ask Milosevic but others in prison in Serbia will know more. It is not so likely that anybody outside ruling circle or former ruling circle (Stanisic) could order DB to do killing but alternative is mafia. But who would pay mafias working for DB to kill Stambolic since Stambolic was not rich man?

  Rade Markovic and Jovica Stanisic know what happen. Stanisic may have lost his job little before but it not impossible that he had involvement but for sure he has information. Bones will be analised to see how long Stambolic lived before he was killed. This will test theory of famous journalist and former advisor to Kostunica and Milosevic, Tijanic. Tijanic by way house is not even clean himself. People say that from time of Tito he was member of secret police. This is why he always close to people in power and have lot of information they say. Other one that know is Legija himself but Legija is gone from Serbia and if he is found he will finish like Siptar and Kum (Godfather, no mistake that he was criminal).Legija like Siptar knows too much.

  The article in English by Tijanic on Stambolic is under. It is really worth to read but to take with pinch of salt.

  http://www.cdsp.neu.edu/info/students/marko/neznov/neznov31.html

  As for never knowing in Balkans as Duso say. Well maybe but in next few months there will be much information coming we did not know before. Problem is to work out what is misinformation and try to keep to facts. My own feeling is that small criminals that did this executions and DB conenction will be proved. The big question is who was in control of them?
  
  Arandjel P V
  Srbija

• Sunday March 30, 2003 at 10:09 am
  US mistakes Slovenia for partner in war

  The United States has mistakenly named Slovenia as a partner in its war against Iraq. Slovenian Prime Minister Anton Rop says the US even offered his country a share of the money budgeted for the conflict. He says when asked for an explanation the US State Department admitted Slovenia was named in a document by mistake. Slovenia now will not get the $7.5 million it was mistakenly offered in the US war budget.

  http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/s819115.htm

  But they added Lichtenstein and San Marino!
  
  D. Jovanovic
  USA

• Sunday March 30, 2003 at 10:32 am
  DJ:

  I heard they did the same thing earlier with Croatia. Anybody confirm?
  
  Dennis Revell
  USA

• Sunday March 30, 2003 at 11:00 am
  Baghdad Market Attack Brings Comparisons

  The Associated Press Thursday, March 27, 2003; 3:48 PM

  The explosion that killed 14 people at a market in Baghdad's Al-Shaab neighborhood evoked memories of an even deadlier attack from the Bosnian war - the shelling of a Sarajevo marketplace that killed 68 people and wounded 200 on Feb. 5, 1994. And just as in Sarajevo, there is a dispute over blame. Iraqi officials said U.S. cruise missiles hit the Al-Shaab market Wednesday. The U.S. military denied it targeted that neighborhood and raised the possibility one of Iraqi anti-aircraft missiles fired at a U.S. air mission over another part of the city fell back to earth and exploded.

  In Sarajevo, it was a mortar shell that slammed into the open-air market. Bosnia's government blamed Bosnian Serb gunners who had been relentlessly shelling the capital from the surrounding hills. Later, a more sinister theory made the rounds: that Sarajevo's Bosnian Muslim defenders fired the shell into the market, or set off a bomb, to create a slaughter that would trigger international outrage and increase pressures on the Serbs to end the war. After the attack, NATO did issue an ultimatum to Serb forces to move heavy weapons away from Sarajevo or risk airstrikes. But the war dragged on until late the next year. The question of responsibility is still debated. The shell's trajectory seems to suggest it was fired from one of the Serb positions, but no one has conclusively ruled out the possibility it came from the Muslim side.

  Jean Daniel, Editor of the magazine "Le Nouvel Obsservateur," in the August 31, 1995 issue under the revealing title, "No more lies about Bosnia," made an unprecedented confession: that the Prime Minister at the time of the market massacre, as well as many other ministers and two French generals, had confirmed to him that Muslims were the true authors of this carnage. The following statement is self-explanatory: 'They (the Muslims) have committed this carnage on their own people?' I explained in consternation. 'Yes,' confirmed the Prime Minister (Eduard Balledur) without hesitation, 'but at least they forced NATO to intervene'."

  It was all there.
  
  D. Jovanovic
  USA

• Sunday March 30, 2003 at 11:24 am
  D Jovanovic

  Slovenia was getting $7.5 million to sign their name in support? Hell, that's not a bad deal. We get to pay $70+ million just to show up! Goes to show what twits our politicians are here down under. We should have sat back and just signed instead of going to the trouble of being there :-( :-(

  I wonder whether YU (Serbia and Montenegro) got the same as Slovenia or whether they finally got the $100 million for Milosevic?
  
  David
  Australia

• Sunday March 30, 2003 at 12:30 pm
  

  David and D.Jovanovic,

  This is FYI:

  Last Update: Friday, March 28, 2003. 7:00pm (AEST)

  http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/s819115.htm

  The United States has mistakenly named Slovenia as a partner in its war against Iraq.

  Slovenian Prime Minister Anton Rop says the US even offered his country a share of the money budgeted for the conflict.

  He says when asked for an explanation the US State Department admitted Slovenia was named in a document by mistake. Slovenia now will not get the $7.5 million it was mistakenly offered in the US war budget.

  
  
  Dusom Sarajlija
  USA

• Sunday March 30, 2003 at 2:54 pm
  Journalists' anti-Serb bias not written in stone

  (prompted by Dennis's response to my Stambolic post)

  Not all journalists are hardcore propagandists like Amanpour, Klarin or Armatta. Many truly believe the garbage they themselves continuously hear from their colleagues and then parrot it. Most journalists (such as the Guardian's Ian Black, whose article I noted above) have not invested their reputations in their Balkan coverage and don't have an obvious professional stake in continuing an anti-Serb bias. A change of attitude would hardly be noticed by their readers. Even editors now have less political incentive to press on their anti-Serb bias, especially at a time of worldwide outrage against the US & Blair's war on Iraq.

  Some Balkan-assigned journalists (even some who owe their reputation to the Balkans) have already gradually changed their tune. Classic is the case of the "Bosnia genocide" advertiser Roy Gutman from NY Newsday, who has been honest and smart enough to expose a revealing case of anti-Serbian terror and propaganda in post-war Kosovo (Momcilovic case).
  Also, worthy of praise is CBC's Nancy Durham, a rare case of open admission of having been a victim of KLA propaganda (Rajmonda story).

  In these days, Balkan-assigned journalists are unlikely to be receiving many letters from readers concerning their articles. A few well-substantiated, firm and polite letters have a small but finite probability of making a difference in the hearts and minds of a honest but previously misinformed influential journalist. I believe, therefore, that it is worth directing thoughts posted here to the mainstream press as well.

  Additional note to Dennis: I don't expect the Daily Mirror to issue a mea culpa over its absurd "Belsen '92" story. I am, however, encouraged by the fact that Mirror hosts John Pilger, one of the most consistent prominent opponents of Angloamerican criminal policies against the people of both Serbia and Iraq.

  Note on Stambolic: The dates tell it all.

  Thanks to Andy for providing valuable info on Stambolic, especially the exact dates for Kostunica's candidacy (Aug.10, 2000) and Stambolic's disappearance (Aug.25, 2000). These dates demonstrate that, in contrast to absurd allegations by various Serb and western sources, Milosevic had no electoral interest in Stambolic's death.

  Certain points are raised by Arandjel and others about individuals and groups who had opportunities and motives to follow and / or kill Stambolic. All these are valid points for discussion. Nevertheless, I believe that what makes the most sense is to concentrate on the most powerful and clear-cut aspect of the story and hit the propagandists where it hurts: the dates showing Milosevic's lack of electoral motive for committing the crime.
  
  Pythagoras C
  Greece

• Sunday March 30, 2003 at 3:17 pm
  Arandjel P V,

  I can't see that there was any indication from Stambolic that he wanted to run for office at all. He backed somebody else and his wife denied that he had any intention of running.

  It is obvious that Mihailovic is lying when he says that Milosevic ordered Stambolic's killing inorder to keep Stambolic from running in the elections.

  Secondly, how do we know that it was the DB who killed Stambolic, because the lying Mihailovic says so?

  All we know is that there was a "suspicious" white van parked in front of Stambolic's house prior to his abduction, we also hear it reported in the media that some unnamed security guard at a restaurant saw Stambolic being forced into a white van at 10AM on Aug. 25, this unnammed man says that the men who abducted Stambolic SAID they were police.

  Saying they were the police (if the kidnappers really said that) does not automatically make them the police, and driving a white van does not automatically make them the police.

  Since it is clear that Mihailovic is lying about the motive, I wouldn't be surprised if he is also lying about the alleged purpetrators.

  My question to you is this: What possible motive could Milosevic have to want Stambolic killed? What would be the point?

  You also said that Stambolic was found only after questioning former state security agents. How do you know that they didn't know about this sooner? If the present authorities killed Stambolic themselves they would have known where he was all along. They may have just found this a convenient time to dig him up.
  
  Andy Wilcoxson
  Washington, United States

• Sunday March 30, 2003 at 3:22 pm
  Pasic

  You will know the thruth in couple months,under State of Emergency where you can hear only official lies?

  Politics which points to somebody elses guilt and kills; is at least suspicious.
  
  Pero Peric
  Canada

• Sunday March 30, 2003 at 4:44 pm
  State of Emergency probably wont last more than 2 weeks more. I hope less.

  Andy. I take the point about Mihajlovic, if you know him like I do then your point about him to lie makes even more sense. He is incapable, not honest and always yes man, before under Milosevic and today under DOS. I also agree that if you are saying that it is not right for police chief to be judge, jury before investiation has really began by making unsubstanted statement. It is in their interest (when I say their it means DOS / western supporting DOS etc) but that does not mean there was not possibility for Milosevic to order it. It is possibility. Lack of obvious motif does not mean innocence.

  If by the way we listen to what Stambolic wife says then we must listen to her theori. She is sure that DB did it under orders of Markovic. Personally dont think its so important what his wife say What we have so far is body after location was given by DB men. Those men are in jail now. You did not refer to this point. At least they knew he was buried there if they did not do it themsevles then they know somebody who did. We should hope for investigation to solve this crime and not exclude possibillities at early stage.

  Its process Andy. There has been much information coming out in Serbia in last few months, much was not during state of emergency. The letter of Surcin boss Buha which is somewhere available in English on net maybe was important. Can you imagine as Buha said same van was used to take Milosevic from Dedinje with Legija taking him? They have van, now there must be chance for genetic test on van. My interest is to see crime solved. Maybe we in Serbia have been so propogandised in last god knows how many years but majority of people felt for long time that DB were involved in many of these unsolve crime. Of course very soon exactly same thing will happen with Curuvija case. (Motif for which you wont argue about like with Stambolic) Again it will be difficult to defend Milosevic position. You know that. For whats worth I dont believe you should continue opposition of Hague to opposition of any possible crime committed by Milosevic. Balkan politics is very dirty business and Milosevic was very sucessful.

  Motif well dont know. But because nobody had motif doesnt mean crime didnt happen. It did so motif is not needed. What is needed is to find killers.

  But where is Milan? I would like to know his opinion on the subject.
  
  Arandjel P V
  Srbija

• Sunday March 30, 2003 at 4:47 pm
  My mistake you did talk about that point Andy about the body.

  Ok so question become why didnt they find body before or dig it up before. How about to do that before the election to try to send Seselj down and Labus up?

  But they didnt do that do they?
  
  Arandjel P V
  Srbija

• Sunday March 30, 2003 at 5:37 pm
  Peter Taylor, I understand that PM Blair received a Gold Congressional Medal while on the recent trip to the colonies. I wonder was this honor for a Churchellian “sweat, blood and tears” or was it for a Lewenskian infatuation with power.
  
  Walter Trkla
  Kamloops BC
  Canada

• Sunday March 30, 2003 at 5:47 pm
  One of the key questions in order to answer a question who have ordered killing of Mr. Stambolic and others is: Who was Mr. Legija working for? Was he working for one boss or several of them, or was he on his own running professional killers for hire agency? It looks to me that some of Mr. Milosevic people were killed too. Has Mr. Legija had any connections with the French secret service or some other secret service? When has started his relationship with the part of the DOS that is currently in power? What kind of jobs he did for them? Another interesting question is emerging. Who killed Mr. Momir Gavrilovic two hours after he met with Mr. Kostunica to tell him who is who in Serbian Mafia and their connections with the government? Why nobody except Mr. Kostunica is pushing for an answer to be found? On that very day Mr. Gavrilovic said to Mr. Kostunica many things that are publicly announced in Serbia after tragic assassination of Mr. Djindjic. Who was sitting on this information doing nothing and why? After this meeting Mr. Kosutnica warned that Mafia has supporters in the new government as well. Instead of being listened to Mr. Kostunica was exposed to a brutal attacked from the currently ruling reminder of DOS. Do not get me wrong I am not saying that Mr. Milosevic has not ordered killing of Mr. Stambolic. I am just pointing out that we should not be jumping to the conclusions. Killing heads of Mafia is not always good solution. They are taking to their grave answers that nobody else can give. I would like Mr. Legija captured not killed.
  
  Pera Bora
  Ottawa
  Canada

• Sunday March 30, 2003 at 6:13 pm
  My friend from Belgrade wrote this a few days ago as an observation by a foreigner who wrote me that he is not met one Serb that he did not like. This is for Arandjel P V. I am sensing that the police in Belgrade are running wild with power considering the situation here. They have closed two newspapers because they claim that the owners were connected with anti-Djindjic criminal activities. I was in a C.D. store yesterday and when I asked the clerk about the location of two other stores she told me that the police had closed them down. You can bet who their owners were.

  They are bulldozing numerous houses down. I see on local T.V. news a huge front end loader that has for days been trying to demolish the walls of a suspected criminals home in Zemun. This is on the New Belgrade side of the river. The government claims to have arrested 8000 suspects.

  On Monday, the seventeenth of March I witnessed the army surround and invade the house of Ceca Decenija.

  (This was not on T,V.) Her husband is said to have been connected with anti-Djindjic activities before he was shot to death. They arrested Ceca and I heard yesterday that she will never get out of prison.(Ceca is Arkan’s widow Walter’s comment)

  I sense a change now in the feelings of the people. They have lived thorough the shock of the assassination and are now reacting in surprise, and I think disappointment and perhaps embarrassment about the control the police have seemingly arbitrarily imposed on the citizens of this city.

  Walter’s comment: It did not take Don to long to see that a police state has been established to deal with political opponents. Dictatorship of the minority.
  
  Walter Trkla
  Kamloops BC
  Canada

• Sunday March 30, 2003 at 6:20 pm
  Correction ‘too long’+ Don also wrote about an incident with a student who wrote something on a police car that was handled Gestapo style. I felt that for the protection of those named I should not post it.
  
  Walter Trkla
  Kamloops BC
  Canada

• Sunday March 30, 2003 at 6:30 pm
  When a politician comes up publicly with a gross inconsistency, like the one about Stambolic being a threat to Milosevic because he was going to run as an Opposition candidate I smell a rat! All the way from Belgrade to Australia!

  When a suspect leads the police to a gravesite in the hills and woods and goes directly to that grave (within a metre!) after some 2 1/2 years the stench is unbearable. Did the killers mark the grave with a cross or what? As for the grave being prepared with lime, after all this time, it is curious that so much of the corpse and the jogging equipment is still left in tact. And the identification seemd to be rather quick, no? I thought DNA tests took a few days to do.

  It seems Legija may have been in business for himself. That's not to say Milosevic didn't use his services, but not to say Djindjic or Dos didn't either. The Mafia does not have political alegiances. Still, Stambolic's death served the interests of Dos more than Milosevic. Arandjel is right though about Curuvija being a bigger problem for Milosevic.

  Balkan politics is a quagmire. But those sorts of events have nothing to do with the ICTY, nor does Nice have any business introducing them in the tribunal as the ICTY has to do with War Crimes, not civil or political crimes.

  I wonder why some people so easily confuse the issue in this respect?
  
  David
  Australia

• Sunday March 30, 2003 at 6:39 pm
  pythagoras

  Thanks. And of course, we "little" people can do little else than write letters of correction and complaint. I personally feel dreadful about this "war" (slaughter) in Iraq, and was thinking of writing a letter to Tony Blair (and Claire "the Serbs are Scum" Short - she actually said that) telling them how indescribably apoplectically ashamed I am that "my" (sod it, not mine, I disown it), that "my" country is led by twice-proven War-Criminals and unhesitant Mass Murderers. Not "my" country, the country that I initially found myself in by accident of birth.

  Of course, also to tell them that as the Milosevic case indicates, Command Responsibility goes right to the top.

  Many journalists and mainstream media will be extremely reluctant to do the mea culpa thing, however, as that will make those journalists and media themselves guilty of War-Crimes. Their stories don't exist in a vacuum, and there's no doubt that, as just one example, "Belsen 92" got back to people in Bosnia, perhaps who'd never been to Trnopolje (as in fact, Deichman showed, at least one fake ICTY "witness" had not been); serving to stir the cauldron, and incite more war and atrocity. For the UK, Ed. Vulliamy of the Guardian, and Penny Marshall of ITN spring to mind in this regard. Ditto considerations for Racak.

  One possible motive for Stambolic's murder, of course, could be for the sole purpose of blaming it on Milosevic. The sheer strutting arrogance of those in power would allow this. As we have seen, the more power, the more sheer strutting arrogance. This of course, could equally apply to Milosevic whilst in power, but he is a bit of a too obvious perpetrator, isn't he? Apart from the time-line spoiling it, I mean. I bet the western "Non-Governmental" Organisation paid-for quisling media in Serbia, have hardly been blasting that interesting time-line discussed here over their air-waves.

  I've watched a lot of Milosevic at the Hague, (domovina, bard.edu), and, it's hard to say, of course, he is a politician after all, but he seems a much more analytical than spiteful man. It's hard to imagine that he would wait until someone was not going to be a political opponent to eliminate him - unless he knew he was a traitor, of course, and it was politically unexpedient to expose this, or act on it whilst Stambolic was still in the political competition.

  It's all smoke and mirrors anyway. Even when you think you know, you might not. I guess the guilty party will be whoever the CIA/BND or George Soros, with their untold billions available for bribes and coercion, decide. ;-)

  NO doubt, in due course, they will inform Kostunica who the guilty party is, if they already haven't (Milosevic?) ;-)

  Who killed JFK? ;-)

  Terribly thing to say of course, but it strikes me in some ways how convenient it might have been at this time for all those tanks that Jamie Shea told us had been destroyed to roll back into KosovO right now. Roll back and lay right against the walls of Bondsteel and Monteith. I wonder how many unaccustomed subversives the foreign policy fascism of the UK and the US is creating as I type? Probably not enough.

  On a Brit military briefing on TV, the MOD's web-site was very visible on the podium:- http://www.mod.uk/ (Contacts:- http://www.mod.uk/contacts/contacts.htm). I wonder if it would be useful to bombard (sic) them with E-Mails, perhaps reminding them that whilst the Milosevic case is a reminder that Command Responsibility reaches the very top with regard to War-Crimes, no immunity for those lower down the heirarchy is implied.

  Silly me. What am I saying, that's precisely why the US and UK got themselves considered as "special cases" as far as the ICC is concerned.

  What to do? Rebel or practice genuflection?

  Anyone from Iraq who still miraculously has Internet connection, my deepest apologies, not that that means much; and stomp 'em good.
  
  Dennis Revell
  USA

• Sunday March 30, 2003 at 7:05 pm
  Arandjel,

  Everything that happens in politics is done for the reaction.

  You admit that Milosevic had no obvious motive to want to kill Stambolic. So who did? Who has benefited from Stambolic's killing? You yourself say that the DOS is benefiting from this. As far as I am concerned this makes the DOS regime the leading suspect.

  You also know as well as I do that Dusan Mihailovic is a filthy liar. Yet the only way you know that the DB was involved in the killing is because this same liar, Mihailovic, says they were.

  Since you doubt the claim of Stambolic's wife that he didn't want to run for presodent, lets say for the sake of arguement that Stambolic did run in the 2000 elections. Who would he siphon votes away from, Kostunica or Milosevic? Obviously he would take votes away from Kostunica.

  Stambolic, in his book "Road to Nowhere" blamed every problem that Serbia had on Milosevic. Nobody who would vote for Milosevic would vote for Stambolic, but people who would vote against Milosevic might split their vote between Stambolic and Kostunica.

  We should also consider the possibility that this wasn't a political killing at all. Stambolic was the director of JUBMES until 1997, maybe he got in the way of some money laundering operation that the mafia was running and so they killed him as a sort of "pay-back."
  
  Andy Wilcoxson
  Washington, United States

• Sunday March 30, 2003 at 9:11 pm
  Well, as none of you buggers ;-) deigned to help me out with George Washington's warning concerning the dangers and fakery of alternate domination of one party after another, I hunted some more.

  What I found so far isn't quite what I remember from the PBSU TV program, but may be I didn't remember it correctly, or he said more on this subject that I haven't found; but the following is close:-

  " I have already intimated to you the danger of parties in the State, with particular reference to the founding of them on geographical discriminations. Let me now take a more comprehensive view, and warn you in the most solemn manner against the baneful effects of the spirit of party generally.

  This spirit, unfortunately, is inseparable from our nature, having its root in the strongest passions of the human mind. It exists under different shapes in all governments, more or less stifled, controlled, or repressed; but, in those of the POPULAR form, it is seen in its greatest rankness, and is truly their worst enemy.

  The alternate domination of one faction over another, sharpened by the spirit of revenge, natural to party dissension, which in different ages and countries has perpetrated the most horrid enormities, is itself a frightful DESPOTISM. But this leads at length to a more formal and permanent despotism. The disorders and miseries which result gradually incline the minds of men to seek security and repose in the absolute power of an individual; and sooner or later the chief of some prevailing faction, more able or more fortunate than his competitors, turns this disposition to the purposes of his own elevation, on the ruins of public liberty. "

  Nice try with the Constitution, George, old boy; but what you feared, has, in fact, come to pass.

  That's OK, though, currently, it's the rest of the World suffering from it far more than the US is, as it has been for a long time now.

  Washington obviously wasn't much of a democrat, so I guess he really must have been a Republican. ;-)

  RIP George.
  
  Dennis Revell
  USA

• Sunday March 30, 2003 at 9:21 pm
  And ...

  RIP America, as the "last best hope for Mankind"

  Come back spirit of George W., without the Bush, and save us all from what the USA has become.
  
  Dennis Revell
  USA

• Sunday March 30, 2003 at 11:56 pm
  Don't you get it???? Mr. Jovanovic........there is no truth....... only different preconceptions about the truth..... whatever you may believe will be different from the other side......that is why there needs to be forgetting of 'salt on old wounds'......there will never be an agreeance on what the past is from people like yourself who have been so personally affected by the horrors of the past. ..............the more you agitate that your truth is correct, the more the other side will retaliate...... i personally have left this behind....i avoid the politics my father preaches because it sounds exactly like yours.....except from the other side...... therefore..........if there cannot be agreeance in the near future,hopefully there will be in the distant future.......the only way i see this happening, and the only way it effectively can...is that people respect each others versions of the truth.....otherwise the cycle of violence will not be broken and all too soon, there will be more bloodshed. ...............and before you respond by saying...."but the serbs have been oppressed, and suffered so many atrocities, etc,etc,etc".....think for one second that the other side is thinking exactly the very same thing......your truth does not matter to them, their truth does not matter to you........ this is where there is disagreement...................................... do you think for one minute that the people who to you are the aggressors, the nazis, etc, were not and perhaps still are afraid of you???.....the fear that leads to war comes from this fact that people do not wish to understand how others feel, believing they are correct......... i say, 'leave it.....or die silently with it'......if you forgive then show it, or perhaps bite your tongue,......be the example as i am trying to be.....by not caring about the past.....it might not be easy......but surely it is better than seeing your country folk and perhaps your ancestors fighting more wars.....repeating the mistakes of previous peoples.
  
  ivan kokotovic
  australia

• Monday March 31, 2003 at 12:19 am
  ana...... you must remember the past to learn from it. what you should not remember is 'salt on old wounds', otherwside you have surely learnt the wrong lesson. .........also, yes the croat communists didn't feel guilt, but it does not excuse them aligning with ustasa sympathisers less than 30 years after the war...... although it was more to do with the post-wwII repression upon croats which caused this.......there needed to be a separation of croat politics from the past which concentrated upon the promotion of croat art/culture/religion....within the framework of Yugoslavia....than the demotion of others. ...................................................... another thing Walter..and I am happy you raised it.... the cycle can be broken...but not through JUSTICE...... because JUSTICE is viewed differently by different people.... for there to be JUSTICE there needs to be a conveyance of truth....... however as i have pointed out previously.....there is no real truth.....only preconceptions..... thus.....JUSTICE, rather than providing a fresh start, a new slate, will instead cause greivance to certain people somewhere........................................ and then there will be a new reason to agitate for conflict, and another injustice to avenge in the eyes of the few (which can quickly become the eyes of the majority).......................... do not underestimate the power of nationalism.......it makes peacegivers into murderers and the humble into manipulators.......... i personally don't wanna see it again.....
  
  ivan kokotovic
  australia

• Monday March 31, 2003 at 1:37 am
  Ivan,

  Please don't take offence, but I think it's extremely difficult and, possibly more trouble than some of us would want to take, to try to decipher your rambling postings. I'm interested in what you have to say, but I'd rather not get dizzy trying to read it, so could you kindly write in complete sentences? Substance over style, please, or else the substance gets lost in the style.
  
  Anna P
  California

• Monday March 31, 2003 at 2:37 am
  Arandjel,

  If lack of motive does not mean innocence then what does the presence of motive indicate? The reverse? Is it not clear that the official statements are gered for one thing... to show that Milosevic was the leader of a criminal enterprise against his own people. Don't you think it fits in rather nicely with the Martial Law and the new proposed law on cooperation with the ICTY about indictments of more Serbian figures? And when you add to that the fact that one Batic (?) has publicly stated that the Martial Law will be curtailed the moment the law on cooperation is passed, then you can begin to get the picture about what is really going on and what this sudden, miraculous resolution of the Stambolic show is meant to do. As Zivkovic said, Serbia and Montenegro are the FIRST state in the world to have identified and captured the killers of a head of state! Bravo for truth and justice. The Warren Commission on JFK's death would be so proud of them.

  I know you may need to blame someone for the state of your country and your own personal predicament, but don't for one minute fall into the trap of believing your current politicians as much as others have believed in your former ones. That just leaves the door open for them to do what they like, and you have plenty of examples of that in your own country (and even in our Western "democracies").

  If the Western public were a little more sceptical and critical, its politicians and their financial masters would never have got away with bombing and destroying YU. Politicians are meant to serve the people, NOT the other way around. And they most certainly won't serve you, as long as you allow them not to. As Jari would put it: Caveat emptor! (Buyer Beware!)
  
  David
  Australia

• Monday March 31, 2003 at 2:46 am
  ivan kokotovic

  I'm sure your points are well meant, they're not directed at me, but I shall give a response anyway.

  In the Yugoslav case you miss out the central, vital and intentionally complicating component of foreign interference.

  From earlier times, before the breakup, of effects of IMF policies, which also worked so well in Argentina, whose population by and large now have a healthy contempt for the IMF, to Germany's untastefully immediate recognition of Croatian independence.

  In the IMFs case, and fake providers of so called "aid" (I believe there's really no such thing as foreign aid - the West always extracts more than it puts in) this eventually led to preferential and selective treatment of the various regions of Yugoslavia, which led to heightening of tensions over and above those that existed primarily for non-economic reasons. This, of course, excacerbated feelings of seperation from Belgrade and the central Government, because the "aid", credits, whatever, was seen as no longer being funnelled through Belgrade - so, what use is Belgrade?. If any such organisation of a foreign country tried that with a selected region of the USA, that would most probably be regarded as an act of war - refusing to deal with central authority in preference to regional authority. Of course, for those that were in favour of continuance in some form, of Yugoslavia within the original borders, it was extremely stupid of Belgrade to permit this. Yugoslavia, was, of course, an old 19th century idea, and home-grown at that, created post WW I by mutual agreement and had nothing originally to do with Tito or the communists. How many home-grown ideas are the Balkans splinters permitted now? Let's ask Paddy. (btw, if you want to upset him, you can leave a dead cow and some cherries in his garden; if you really want to upset him, you can also leave a note asking how much he and his old SBS buddies enjoyed training Pol-Pot).

  To think that the IMF and World Bank, who are merely arms of Western, primarily US, foreign policy weren't aware of the likely effects of this would be naive. The idea that the US is uninformed when it comes to foreign countries and foreign policy only applies to the general population, who are indeed depressingly uninformed. The US foreign policy wonks, however, are extremely expert in these matters; albeit that expertise is routinely disastrously coloured by dreaded diasporas and the very narrow interests of Uncle Sam. This is also currently the case with Iraq at the moment, where the cheat and swindler Chalabi, among others, assured the US war-hawks that the Iraqi army would collapse almost immediately, and the population welcome the US's StarShip Troopers with open arms. Chalabi is currently wanted in Jordan after being found guilty in absentia of embezzling $300 million, about one quarter of Jordan's foreign debt. A 22 year jail sentence awaits him.

  There's nothing unusual in the West choosing folks of dubious character to do their dirty work of either undermining countries or, as in the case of the former Yugoslavia, destroying them. Witness the glowing descriptions of Izetbegovic, a Muslim fundamentalist if ever there was one, of Tudjman, a holocaust denyer if ever there was one; both former NAZIs, if I recall correctly. Contrast with the complete misrepresentation of speeches by Milosevic most famously made in 1987 and 1989. Those public utterances of his became famous, at least for those who bothered to find out things for themselves, and dig out the actual words, because Western misrepresentations of them (eg: by the despicable Robin Cook, slavishly repeated Pavlov-dog like by the mainstream press), should "live in infamy".

  Mix in the later internal interferences in the internal affairs of another sovereign nation by the BND, and almost certainly shortly later the CIA, who aren't won't to be left out of such things for long; and the embarassingly instantaneous recognition of Croatian independence by, of of all nations, Germany, their erstwhile mentors in NAZI days followed by fake PR prevarication by the US as to whether it should do the same, US Ambassador Zimmerman's later destructive interference with the Lisbon Agreement, and the pot stirs, and the cauldron boils.

  Analagously to the regional selective methods of the IMF (headed by Michel Camdessus, for most of the relevant time); if Germany had had the temerity to recognise, say Texas, as in independent state, as it did Croatia, the US would definitely have regarded that as an act of war.

  Were there already rifts and cracks before this interference (in my view an interference precisely intended to have the effects it eventually indeed did have)? Sure there were. Largely due to Tito's sweeping under the carpet of burning resentments and hatreds understandably and unavoidably left over from the fratricidal horrors of WW II. No "Peace and Reconciliation Commission" for the immediate post WW II Yugoslavia, unfortuneately. Not even a Nuremberg equivalent. Just a lot of ad-hoc neatly and not so neatly cut throats around the place, until Tito managed to "get a grip".

  It strikes me that you advocating something pretty much along the lines of the Tito approach; which I believe, apart from the machinations of foreign powers, lies at the root of the horrors of the Balkan wars. Surely this is the mistake that history is trying to teach here, not to sweep it all under the carpet again?

  Sure, you can argue that everyone sees their own version of what is the truth and what is not. That sounds like a get-out for from every minor infraction and petty-crime, up to the most horrendous war-crimes. It's the story of post WW II NAZI apologists and holocaust denyers.

  The fact is it is possible in very many cases to pull and tease at the tangled pieces of string and pull them together into a more coherent ball than before. It is actually possible to trace, for example, how western mainstream media treatment of KosovO changed, and hardly subtly, over the last couple of decades. For example, how Ed Vulliamy of the Guardian completely changed his "not good, but not so bad" description of Trnoplje to that of a "fenced in concentration camp" with armed guards and vicious dogs; the former version written a couple of days after his visit, the latter 8 years later. It's a double-miracle. His recollection was better 8 years after his visit than it was 2 days later. Double-miracle? Well his later rendition also fit in ever so well with what other prominent Western "journalist" and "respected" authors had been touting about Trnopolje. He was there. His later versions miraculously matched the preferred "Belsen 92" version, derived from ITN's famous pictures.

  Whatever it is that is eventually established that the Serbs (or Croats, or the different colours of Bosnians, etc), as well as the Western powers-that-be/were, and their media are really guilty of, where that is possible, and that is possible in many cases, then let them answer for it.

  The Serbs, however, nor any other group for that matter, can be expected to live with and accept the wholesale demonisation of themselves as a people, that became the the stock-in-trade of the West and their gigantic media machines, in recent years.

  This media machine, has, of course, now quite successfully infiltrated itself into the former Yugoslav republics in recent years. So it's not looking too hopeful, at the moment anyway. Still, there are zillions of tangled pieces of string all over the World, on people's computers, wherever, so now probably they are indestructible; and always available to be pulled into a ball.

  Perhaps the Internet will herald the end of victor's "justice".
  
  Dennis Revell
  USA

• Monday March 31, 2003 at 2:47 am
  Darn it, did I mess up the formatting? Italics OFF?
  
  D R
  USA

• Monday March 31, 2003 at 2:48 am
  One more try italics on: , italics off: . Test.
  
  D R
  USA

• Monday March 31, 2003 at 2:49 am
  
  
  HTML Correction
  Hopefully

• Monday March 31, 2003 at 3:00 am
  As for Djindjic, I think he was clever enough to know that it would be impossible for him to pass YET another law on cooperation, assuming he even wanted to, considering the smack in the face he got from the West on surrendering Milosevic and passing the first one.

  But what if Djindjic refused to pass the second law on cooperation? It would have been impossible to conduct a purge as the current administration is doing. What if Djindjic refused to let Kosovo go independent and to Nato? Maybe he redeemed himself and did die as a patriot after all?
  
  David
  Australia

• Monday March 31, 2003 at 3:07 am
  Ivan Justice is what society values at a point in time. It is not static since it changes as values change. It seems to me that you have accepted a new set of values and I am sure you will update those over time as most of us do. Society is like that as well. We collectively hold certain things to be justice. At one time justice was trial by combat, or being tied up and thrown in a pool of water, if you floated the water rejected you and you were seen as guilty since water represented purity, if you sank that meant water accepted you and you were innocent and quickly fetched from the water. We burned witches not to long ago and people saw that as justice. Today we have a set of principles that society accepts as justice what we on this forum would like to see is that those accepted principles are followed be the accused Milosevic or Mother Teresa.

  I am sure the values of justice that we follow now will change over time and a new set of accepted values will be practiced by society until even those are challenged and new ones formulated and accepted. Ivan you seem to have discovered Hegel’s Dialectical which provides one explanation of history.

  Hegel said that Thesis + Antithesis = Synthesis or Present ideas of Justice + New ideas about justice = New accepted norms of Justice. These new norms will be challenged and on and on and on where you have Acceptance + Challenge = New Acceptance.

  When the majority of society feels like you Mr. Kokotovic or like Mr. Jovanovic we will be ready to challenge that consensus. You think that is not possible. I disagree otherwise we would still be practicing witchcraft and carrying hot iron across the room and looking to a Deity to determine whose hand will fester in order to determine guilt or innocence. All Mr. Jovanovic wants is the truth and acceptance of responsibility and that to him I think will be justice.

  Dennis Revell two party politics date back to the 19th century. The fact that America has a system where winner takes all makes it very tough for third parties to get into power. Voters know this so if they vote for a third party they feel that they have wasted their vote. The two parties have made such rules that it is very tough for anyone else to get on the ballot. Small parties in America are not able to neither form coalitions nor ask for concession from larger parties because of separation of powers. Consequently, two parties have no incentive to provide divergent platforms since they are so close and since they raid each other’ s swing vote they seldom provide an alternative platform because they fear mass defection of voters.

  Since influence is vital and pork barreling common, they are both well to the right of centre. As a result those who are to the left of center do not have support they have given up participating.

  The election of 1896 established barriers to left wing parties. The formal rules for new parties as well as intolerance made it impossible for new parties to come into the electoral process. Also, if you can’t stop them you murder them, use the KKK, increase the costs, and make so many hoops for them that they just go away.

  The Populists did well in 1892 but by 1996 populist were divided and under attack in the South. The two established parties exploited this division by providing a compromise candidate. This became the “system of 96’ compromise but never change and in this way they shut out third parties by forcing them to choose the status quo.
  
  Walter Trkla
  Kamloops BC
  Canada

• Monday March 31, 2003 at 3:12 am
  Correction 'The Populists did well in 1892 but by 1896'
  
  Walter Trkla
  Kamloops BC
  Canada

• Monday March 31, 2003 at 3:12 am
  David

  Who knows? May be Djindjic fooled us all and was even getting ready to roll the tanks back into KosovO, at this most "opportune" time? That'd rock the boat!

  Nah, just kidding. That really just isn't him.

  ;-)
  
  Dennis Revell
  USA

• Monday March 31, 2003 at 3:18 am
  Great post Walter.

  That stuff about the populists also rang a bell with me, ref. the PBSU channel, a lot longer ago though.

  OK, so I'm a wannabe four-eyed geek.

  ;-)
  
  Dennis Revell
  USA

• Monday March 31, 2003 at 3:23 am
  Ivan, one should never rub salt into someone else's wound. But it seems to me that Tudjman, in his now historical role as the father of Croatia managed to acquire his status by doing precisely that. He made it A MATTER OF NATIONAL POLICY even. It's a pity because the Croatian people were entitled to their choice of independence on much better grounds than the ones Tudjman presented them with. Building his fatherhood of Croatia on the deliberate resuscitation of fascist linked slogans and insignia may have achieved his own personal, egotistical goals but it did a lot of the good Croatian people a huge disservice. I would like to think that there may have been other ways of becoming a father than at the expense of compromising one's home and children. The Serbs and the Croats are now enjoying the legacy of his strategy. The tit-for-tat philosophy of the Balkans continues. It's a shame it can't rest in peace with Tudjman :-(
  
  David
  Australia

• Monday March 31, 2003 at 3:40 am
  

  Meanwhile at the ICTY the non transmission sign is on. Is Mr. Milosevic fit to stand trial, to resume his trial again or he is watching his trial on TV?

  Why is this instritution of the ICTY run like the Luftwaffe Ministerium?
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Shangrila

• Monday March 31, 2003 at 3:42 am
  

  I get it. Carla must be in Kuwait City!
  
  G C
  Shangrihla

• Monday March 31, 2003 at 3:54 am
  

  You know sometimes I wonder. It seems Walter is suggesting the X Commandments which more or less are accepted universally, are viewed, interpreted in accordance with time. It certainly is the case with a certain cast of characters keeping appearing up in the center stage of history. No much else and certainly not otherwise at the popular level.
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Shangrila

• Monday March 31, 2003 at 4:16 am
  

  First Srebrenica victims to be buried at Bosnian massacre site
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Shangrila

• Monday March 31, 2003 at 4:35 am
  

  Serbia to Clear Handover of New War Crimes Suspects

  White Teror in Belgrade.
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Shangrila

• Monday March 31, 2003 at 4:39 am
  Gogol Try Chamber 3

  http://www.domovina.net/Icty/tribunal_medium.html
  
  David
  Australia

• Monday March 31, 2003 at 5:30 am
  

  Thanks David, the two other chambers are on with their respective cases. I assume Mr. Milosevic is still sick or the chamber went into close session without even bother to announce it. Who knows, and they don't seem to care neither. I am sure the White Terror mob of Belgrade is pleased.
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Shangrila

• Monday March 31, 2003 at 7:16 am
  

  The mad dog chamber run my the English NATO dogs May and Nice were in close session.

  Mr. Milosevic complained, and was cut off, about the impression the court had given during his absence, about he referring to take the recommended medication, It turns out the ICTY medication produced insomnia and drowsiness. May (DOG) barked like a mad English judge, protecting Nice (NATO) from the charges of Mr. Milosevic.

  Before that Mr. Milosevic had asked and May (NATO) evasively refused to deal with it, to be allowed to speak to the press as a way to counter act the effects of the public campaign unleashed by Belgrade against his wife and also the arrest of several of the members of the committee for his defense. I am surprised this has not been denounced here in this very forum where at least one participant claims to be a member of the committee. May (NATO) refused to see any connection between "events in Belgrade" and " this Tribunal" and when Mr. Milosevic tried to continue May (NATO) stopped him.
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Shangrila

• Monday March 31, 2003 at 7:34 am
  Gogol Charlemagne

  I'm surprised the "NATO dogs" and their ... er ... their ... oh, hell, lapdogs, didn't come up with a scheme to shut Milosevic's pipeline from Belgrade a long time ago. Do you think that's what's going on?

  They probably got confused and didn't think of it, as it's not the kind of pipeline you can bomb the crap out of from 40,000 feet in a B-52.

  B-52, B-92: American weapons of mass destruction and mass distraction respectively?

  Where's Shangrila?
  
  Dennis Revell
  USA

• Monday March 31, 2003 at 7:46 am
  Smart cookie, this Markovic:-

  In reaction to the Serbian Interior Ministry’s announcement that it intends to issue a warrant for her arrest, Markovic wrote:

  "Whoever has no words, whose mind is modest, his heart reaches out for violence. Violence is a weapon used by weak and immoral people".

  (OK, I own up, from B92)
  
  Dennis Revell
  USA

• Monday March 31, 2003 at 7:53 am
  Yes, I would agree Mr. Dennis. Is it connected with the request of prosecution to extend their time for one year more? Why all of it happend in February (Prolonged time, Seselj, Mira Markovic)?

  Pasic Is it becomming obvious who profited from Djindjic's death?

  They arrested huge number of people, yet there are Serbian "democrats" who beleive in two weeks 'State of Emergency', or is just DOS expressing their official "truth".
  
  Pero Peric
  Canada

• Monday March 31, 2003 at 8:55 am
  Mr Bora

  I am in agreement with you about wanting Legija alive but he knows too much so dont expect that. He is one of smarter mafias so my idea is that he is already gone from Serbia.

  Far as French involvement with Legija (that is strech I think possible from his Foreign legion connection). Legija was criminal not politican his motif was money. Why did he need to work for foreign government? No there is no evidence for this therori at all.

  Gavrilovic case is interesting. This must also be solved of course. Gavrilovic met with Kostunica 2 times before this. Kostunica should tell us what the talk was about because it is difficult even to talk about motif if we only guess that he was telling about corruption of some DOS party or Djindjic.

  It is documented that relationship between Djindjic and Legija began some days before October 5th. Djindjic in one of those moments when he was in realist / kind of angry and open mood admitted that he reached deal with Legija not to open fire on crowd. Where he was more closed was about what was offered to Legija in return. My feeling is that Djindjic is smart one in this situation and made open (word twist) statement. Who knows what kind of thing he said? Legija thought he had guarantee and Djindjic thought he would slowly make Legija less powerful. In every case he did not want to upset Legija too much in case he went over to Kostunica side. Up to this point Legija was in service of Milosevic as leader of JSO.

  Djindjic did same with most of those guys. Only ones Kostunica had left were army and Rade Markovic. This is why Rade Markovic stayed in government when he should have gone already. Actually Markovic was useful for all parties. He was used by DOS evidence that DSS was dealing with discredited regime. He was supposdly help to destroy files that incriminate SPS / JUL members.

  Walter tell your friend he is right. But in last two / three days it has changed a little. (I see that letter was written about week ago). There are not check points any more in street or I dont see so many. But for prespektive your friend should also be here before. Police always had more influence in Yugoslavia than in West countries. Tactics like beating in streets or jail is not new thing that came during state of emergency. OK sometimes to listen to Ceca music is ok but its not sad to see Ceca be punished for keeping arsenal at her house. She might get less punishment if she can prove it was not left by Legija but Arkan many years ago. It is crime to keep those kind of weapons anywhere. Or maybe in USA you can I dont know?

  David I am in agreement with your post as well (what is going on?). About DNA we have that new lab paid for by West. Lucky us! But dont know that body has been officialy identified. What is sure is that they were his shoes. One point maybe I did not understand is when you say that death of Stambolic served DOS. Maybe that is my English. If you are saying this discoved body serves DOS then I agree but if you are saying that DOS had motif for killing him then it confuses me.

  Andy you are saying motif is everything. It is not. Sometimes motif is not needed. But I dont say that MIlosevic did it. It seems to me that you are arguing he did not so it is up to you to prove that if you claim. All I claim is that JSO / DB were involved. And wrote my belief why this is true. Last night it was put on news that one of these men confessed. Lets see what he has to say. Lets wait to see if van they have was used. The guy said that Legija paid them which is what mafia boss Buha said in letter to media months ago. But if you claim DOS committed crime you must produce evidence or admit that it is based on no evidence at all.

  But let me ask you something if you found out that Milosevic was involved in this or Curuvija murder would you feel different about Milosevic and Hague? It should not make a difference but I have a feeling you are honest guy and would be very disapointed in Milosevic. I say to you do not be surprised if he is and keep Hague and dirty politics in Yugoslavia seprate.

  Your points are right but why did Milosevic make this Mihajlovic liar important politician? Why did Legija do so well under Milosevic? Why did guy who always make such liberal anti crime speech Covic (who we all critisie) work for Milosevic? Answer to all questions is they were of use for him like they are of use for DOS today. It is difficult to criticise without to admit that half of them worked for Milosevic in first place and are same as Legija (without moral go to one with power or money). If you want complete picture of politics in Balkans you must admit to yourself this.

  My opinion of Stambolic is that he could have taken votes from Milosevic. Old style Communist would have rememberd him. Propoganda would have been put on TV that showed how Milosevic put knife in his back. It would have remind people of how when Stambolic was at top there was no war and so on. Stambolic and Kostunica were mirror image. As Kostunica was to right Stambolic was to left. You underestimate reason why people vote for SPS as well. People dont vote just because of leader. There was time here when people voted for SPS because they were afraid of other choice SRS of Seselj. If you like I can also list to you division of DOS between ones support Kostunica and ones who supprt Stambolic.

  By way I didnt doubt claim of Stambolic wife (again I hate it when people make up or add to what I say). I said that she say many things like Stojilkovic and Markovic etc were responsible for husbands death but its not important what she thought about that or maybe you want to make comment on this?

  It comes not as much surprise that JUMBES is mentioned as Tijanic also mention in his article that I posted. Three years is a long time to wait for assasination. Again this is theori that Milosevic government had chance to prove (with the links to mafia) before they lost power. They did not do this. This is this time real motif but again no evidence.
  
  Arandjel P V
  Srbija

• Monday March 31, 2003 at 9:32 am
  Ivan Please define 'salt on old wounds'. If you are telling me that talking about past crimes is a 'salt on old wounds' than you certainly need to re-analyze your approach to this crisis. If you talking about erecting a new monument to Jasenovac, after old was destroyed by HDZ, with encryption to Jews and OTHERS , not even mentioning 600 000 Serbs killed in that concentration camp, than I agree with your definition of 'salt on old wounds'. And Serbian wounds SHALL NOT HEALL as long as people like you continue with ‘there, there’ attitude. And you shall be reminded of that every single opportunity we have. And Croatia shall be reminded of 300 000 Serbs “ethnically cleansed” in 1995. Bottom line: as long as you are denying crimes - it isn’t over yet. As to Croatian oppression - talk to Tito he was Croat, that brought a law that forbid my godfather to return to Kosovo and claim his house after his 4 brothers were killed by Albanians and he and his mother had to flee. Talk to Tito that made “Osma Ofanziva” (eight offensives) possible during witch he expelled Germans from Vojvodina, to have space to settle Serbs from Croatia, to make Croatia ethnically clean. Croatia benefited MOST from Yugoslavia and did NOTHING in return. So stop complaining about 'salt on old wounds' and define in one or two sentences (if you are able to write them grammatically correct, with capital letter and period) what exactly do you mean by 'salt on old wounds’?
  
  Dakic Ana
  Serbia

• Monday March 31, 2003 at 9:32 am
  DOS
  
  DOS DOS
  DOS

• Monday March 31, 2003 at 9:36 am
  
  It is not true that “there is no truth”

  And the truth may be demonstrated in many cases to all reasonable men and women. There are two kinds of truths: Practical or empirical truths and the truths of reason or logic.

  In practical truth statements or propositions are true if they correspond to, that is represent accurately, the events they claim to describe, the facts of the matter.

  For example: When Blair and his ministers claimed that the Serbs had murdered tens of thousands of Kosovars these were false statements: Although most of us were not in a position to determine this at the time. How do we know now that these statements were not true, that these propositions did not correspond to the facts, that the truth is that the Serbs did not murder tens of thousands of Kosovars?

  Here we appeal to logical truth. Practical statements or propositions may form the axioms of logic. Then by means of the rules of inference logical conclusions may be made which are absolutely true - if the axioms or initial propositions are true.

  Continuing with our example: If tens of thousands of Kosovars had been murdered by the Serbs then there would be tens of thousands of bodies but searches over four years have found only some 4,000 and many of these are Serbs or other minorities. Also we have some evidence that more than a thousand Kosovars were murdered by the KLA. Similarly there would be tens of thousands of reports of missing persons but there are not. The conclusion we must draw is that the Serbs did not murder tens of thousands of Kosovars and that Blair and his ministers lied to us and continue to do so. The big question is why?

  It is the object of a true court of justice to establish the truth through such methods. It is the purpose of a political court conducting a show trial to hide the truth. The failure to indict the leaders of the KLA, the apparent acceptance of demonstrably bogus evidence such as that presented by Patrick Ball and the dishonest testimony of many more such as Ashdown and Naumann is palpable. In this lack of impartiality and apparent acceptance of many falsehoods there is a clear inference to be drawn about the fairness or justice of the ICTY’s trial of Milsosevic.
  
  Peter Taylor
  Herts/UK

• Monday March 31, 2003 at 9:59 am
  Or as Zafod Beeblebrox stated, when it had just been revealed to the earthling Arthur Dent that he had, in fact, conspired with the Vogons in blowing up the earth on the fake pretext of making way for a hyperspace by-pass:

  "Truth? What's truth, man?"

  ;-)
  
  Dennis Revell
  USA

• Monday March 31, 2003 at 10:51 am
  Truth is Peter Arnett was fired by NBC for giving a truthful statement to Iraq media. So ......we see why the polls tell us the American people are behind this stupid war with Iraq. We see why the media tells us Hussein cuts out the tongues of those who do not agree with him and leaves them to die on the streets of Baghdad. Why Serbs are not human. Truth is only for fools who care nothing about paying their mortgage, or feeding their children. Peter better join Milosevic’s wife in Russia. Pressure was put on NBC by the illegitimate president .

  “Supporters for the war” in Florida yesterday.How ludicrous. Supporting a war? Coming from a bunch of Cubans who turned Florida into a Banana Republic what would you expect?

  A Cspan caller hit the nail on the head this morning. “For all those out there who say the protesters are “traitors” read your Constitution and if you do not like it pack up your bags and leave.” Boy, do I wish they would. That is right, planes and ships leave everyday.

  An article in the Los Angeles Times about enlisters in the military was very interesting, but then who did not know that most of these young men and women go into the service for security. Security...learning a trade,benefits such as medical, paycheck, and maybe after leaving the military an education and home affordable under the GI Bill.These men and women, with exception of a few, went into the military to better their lives not to shoot and be shot at.BTW folks the GI Bill was made possible by the Democrats. Those who opposed the bill were squeamish about having just anybody go to college...did they mean someone like the “hero.,” or maybe me, or you?

  I want these troops to come home now, Mr. Illegitimate President. I want them home safe and sound.No more killing on either side. The troops I do not have any regard for are the ones who are in the peacekeeping business and abuse the citizens of the countries they are supposed to be keeping the peace for.I once read about Bosnia and the peacekeeper who was riding a Serb as a horse as the PK smoked a cigarette and of course the other PKs with their guns watched the spectacle. That is something that made my blood pressure go way.... way up. I am not proud of this fool!

  Quoting Walter, “There are weeds in every garden..”

  Jari this is the last time I will ask you to come out. Are you sick? Just let us know if you are okay. We miss your brilliant brain and your funny disposition.

  
  
  Kathryn Love
  SJC
  USA

• Monday March 31, 2003 at 10:55 am
  
  More on truth and lies

  On March 24, 1999, the NATO alliance of 19 countries launched an undeclared and illegal war on Serbia, a small country whose people and politicians had been obstinately demonized for years.

  The overwhelming majority of the American opinion makers that form the punditocracy was actively advocating and supporting the conflict and regurgitating the crass disinformation fed by the powers that be.

  On or about the time Thomas Friedman of The New York Times wrote his ignominious words -- "...Let's at least have a real war . . . It should be lights out in Belgrade: every power grid, water pipe, bridge, road and war-related factory has to be targeted . . . the stakes have to be clear: Every week you [Serbs] ravage Kosovo is another decade we will set your country back by pulverizing you. You want 1950? We can do 1950. You want 1389? We can do 1389 too . . . Give war a chance..." (NYT, April 23, 1999)

  I felt compelled to reach out to a small, hard-to-read book, La Trahison des Clercs (The Treason of the Intellectuals), written in 1927 by a relatively obscure thinker, Julien Benda.

  By Gilles d’Aymery of Swans 31 March 2003
  
  Peter Taylor
  Herts/UK

• Monday March 31, 2003 at 11:01 am
  Arandjel P V

  You said (among other things):

  " OK sometimes to listen to Ceca music is ok but its not sad to see Ceca be punished for keeping arsenal at her house. She might get less punishment if she can prove it was not left by Legija but Arkan many years ago. It is crime to keep those kind of weapons anywhere. Or maybe in USA you can I dont know? "

  Yes, indeed, many Americans consider it a "God" given right to arm themselves to the teeth.

  To the extent that more than 30,000 Americans end up shot to death each year; and, of course, many more injured and maimed.

  I'd guestimate about 250,000 gun-shot dead Americans over the 10 years between 1990 and 2000, approximately the period of the breakup of the former Yugoslavia. Anyone got a figure for those years for all types of violent deaths in the former Yugoslavia, Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia ... ?

  That's the American way, which they're so keen to extol the virtues of World-wide. May be the US should bomb itself into gun-control. The gun-culture is seeing off more than ten 9/11s worth of lives/annum off into the wide blue-yonder, and they're bombing ... Iraq ... ! They'd be better off re-setting their GPS guided missiles to the National Rifle Association's HQ (NRA: a hugely powerful US pro-gun "rights" lobbying group).
  
  Dennis Revell
  USA

• Monday March 31, 2003 at 11:14 am
  Oh hell, Kathryn, you've only got to watch CNN for 10 minutes "to see why the polls tell us the American people are behind this stupid war with Iraq".

  And Fox is worse!

  Talk about incessant war-drum beating. They are shames to humanity. War criminals themselves, as the media also showed themselves to be capable of being in the Balkans.

  Give me the detachment of Iraqi TV anyday.

  ;-)
  
  Dennis Revell
  USA

• Monday March 31, 2003 at 11:28 am
  Why do I have a feeling that Djindjic murder may be compared to burning of the Reichstag Fire?

  February 27, 1933

  The German Parliament (Reichstag) burns down. A dazed Dutch Communist named Marinus van der Lubbe is found at the scene and charged with arson. [He is later found guilty and executed].

  February 28, 1933

  President Hindenburg and Chancellor Hitler invoke Article 48 of the Weimar Constitution, which permits the suspension of civil liberties in time of national emergency. This Decree of the Reich President for the Protection of the People and State abrogates the following constitutional protections:

  Free expression of opinion

  Freedom of the press

  Right of assembly and association

  Right to privacy of postal and electronic communications

  Protection against unlawful searches and seizures

  Individual property rights

  States' right of self-government

  Dose anybody else have same feeling? Dose anybody else have same feeling?
  
  Dakic Ana
  Serbia

• Monday March 31, 2003 at 11:39 am
  Yea, and not just in Serbia.

  Any anti-war protests there, or are they now stamped on there?
  
  Dennis Revell
  USA

• Monday March 31, 2003 at 12:08 pm
  Yes, Ana I do.
  
  Pero Peric
  Canada

• Monday March 31, 2003 at 12:33 pm
  

  Milosevic Suffers Blood Pressure Drug Effects

  Dennis,

  Shangrila, where I have defected at the beginning of the Iraqi war is a country of lost horizons
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Shangrila

• Monday March 31, 2003 at 12:35 pm
  Dennis it was disapointment that there is no anti war protests in Belgrade but we dont want to think about war any more. Although everyone is disgustd by it. Our media was at least good like this. Everyone they ask are shocked, so shocked they cant talk about it. They know what we saw is nothing to what poor Iraqis have now.

  Ana, believe me I feel it more than you know but Im high risk but reason why I seem almost supportive here of state of emergency is realistic. People do support it. If I argue people look at me strange and ask dont I want criminals arrested. It has changed in last few days believe me but there is no justifytion for it now. They can continue to look for Legija under old laws or even stop to restrict media, right to protest and so. But again when I hear SRS talk of civil rights here - sorry they never talked about that before.

  Problem is that as you know we never really had these rights before anyway. And correct me if Im wrong but many Western countries dont have it also. (I seen Europe and N Africa but not US).
  
  Arandjel P V
  Srbija

• Monday March 31, 2003 at 12:40 pm
  Legija seeks a deal | 18:18 | Beta

  BELGRADE, THE HAGUE -- Monday - The man believed to be behind the Djindjic assassination has sought protection from the Hague Tribunal in exchange for supplying information on Bosnian Serb leaders Radovan Karadzic and Ratko Mladic, Beta reports, quoting anonymous diplomatic sources. Milorad “Legija” Lukovic, the former commander of the now-disbanded police Special Operations Unit, is being actively sought by Serbian police in connection with the murder of the Serbian prime minister. Beta’s sources say that Legija, who is known to have close ties with Karadzic and Mladic, has offered to provide information on the whereabouts of The Hague’s two most wanted suspects, in exchange for protection and a new identity. Hague Prosecution press officer Florence Hartmann declined to comment on the reports, saying that the issue was too sensitive.

  This is hard to believe but not impossible... Whatever next in this country?
  
  Arandjel P V
  Srbija

• Monday March 31, 2003 at 12:52 pm
  

  Some decent people.
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Shangri-La

• Monday March 31, 2003 at 12:56 pm
  As I have pointed out several times and as David said Mr. Legija is criminal entrepreneur working for him self and only him self. Now we see that he wants to work for the ICTY. It looks that the ICTY is interested. Who after this can still believe that the ICTY is in the business of saving Serbia? The customers of Mr. Legija must be numerous. His business is not only focused on the countries of the Former Yugoslavia, but also, as we see, offered worldwide. As I said to the highest bidder.
  
  Pera Bora
  Ottawa
  Canada

• Monday March 31, 2003 at 1:16 pm
  Yes Arandjel, it sounds really funny when radicals talk about “freedom of speech” and “civil liberties”. I do understand why people want Mafia gone and I support government in that effort. But what I am afraid that this is turning out to be is fight against opposition. No matter if we like or dislike SRS, SPS and JUL and other parties, they do have fundamental right to organize and run at the election. This is the root of democracy. My God, in Germany recently court decided against Chancelor Gerhard Shreder‘s request, to make nazi illegal party. Everybody has the right to speak. I will fight your arguments, you will fight mine. But you do not use state of emergency to get rid of political opponents. Even Milosevic did not do that during the war and that time could have been perfect to do so.
  
  Dakic Ana
  Serbia

• Monday March 31, 2003 at 1:18 pm
  Gogol, the article that you have pointed too has an interesting omission. It fails to say that Mr. Milosevic has asked the ICTY to permit investigators from Belgrade to interview him in The Hague on the charges that he or members of his family are involved in the crimes currently under investigation in Serbia. This omission and Mr. Milosevic request may speak volumes themselves.
  
  Pera Bora
  Ottawa
  Canada

• Monday March 31, 2003 at 1:28 pm
  

  Pera,

  It also fails to say Mr. Milosevic wants the right to address the public thru the media, that he accuses the tribunal of distorting the truth by saying he refused to take his medication making his trial last longer. The media is like the cheer leaders for this choreography of the trial or for the present war, waged by the same interests against the interests of the people of a sovereign nation, be it Yugoslavia be it Irak. No wonder Peter Arnnet was sacked once again.
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Shangri-La

• Monday March 31, 2003 at 1:32 pm
  Few weeks ago I was speculating that a secret tape on the Red Beret ceremony presented at the Trial during testimony of Captain Dragan may have been sent to The Hague by the very commanders of the unit. I was hinting that the whole tape was a set up since Captain Dragan and Mr. Milosevic agreed that many actions mention on the tape never happened and that the unit was formed after BH war and not during it. I was speculating that Mr. Franki was trying to get a deal from the ICTY. I always said that this is pretty wild speculation, but today it looks more credible.
  
  Pera Bora
  Ottawa
  Canada

• Monday March 31, 2003 at 1:39 pm
  

  Check the ICTY transcripts, they are up date to March 18.HERE
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Shangri-La

• Monday March 31, 2003 at 1:51 pm
  Gogol, I am not as good as Jari is on the rules of the ICTY. A month ago I have run into the rule that states that one of the purposed of the ICTY is to enable an accused to be heard and to be able to provide his version of the events. Mr. Milosevic is not only denied this by the media but by the Judges, as well. Mr. May is so proud when he turns off Mr. Milosevic microphone. Since this is the trial that deals with command responsibility, and since command responsibility is based on the political decisions I think that Mr. Milosevic should be allowed to give political statements. The prosecution and his accusers and witnesses are never denied this opportunity or had their microphones turned off. I find this practice repulsive and specially designed means to humiliate and harass Mr. Milosevic as much as possible.
  
  Pera Bora
  Ottawa
  Canada

• Monday March 31, 2003 at 2:05 pm
  I find this practice of frequent changes of the drags given to Mr. Milosevic quit puzzling and disturbing. My parents are on drugs used to suppress high blood pressure. It took their cardiologist a number of months, much less then a year, to determine their proper therapy. Once when it was established it has not been changed for years. Here a change of therapy coincides with a renewal of requests to disallow Mr. Milosevic to defend him self and to extend this trial far longer that the amount of days lost till now.
  
  Pera Bora
  Ottawa
  Canada

• Monday March 31, 2003 at 4:27 pm
  

  I always thought that most of the people are working for foreign secret services for money. I never associated any ideology with Mr. Legija. As far as I know Mr. Legija started in the Former Yugoslavia as a thief. Then joined French Legion as many criminal starters do. What he brought back with him to Serbia is more of the French Legion culture than something that he could have learned in Serbia. I look at The Legion as group of highly trained thugs, which has nothing to do with any ideology or French culture, but work for money for the French government and the most dirtiest work gets done.

  It seams to me that every one in Serbia for years new that Zemun and Surcin clans were criminal organizations. Mr. Djindjic was openly using services of the Surcin clan, until he was warned by opposition that since every one knows that the Surcin clan is a criminal organization this can be politically detrimental for him politically.

  Mr. Dindjic and people around him consistently avoided to make changes to the laws and ruled using executive orders. When warned by Mr. Kostunica that this is unconstitutional and something that was stile of the Mr. Milosevic government they said that they have no time to change the laws. The executive orders are more efficient Mr. Djindjic used to say. What a position for a "democrat"?

  It is interesting that Mr. Gavrilovic choose to go to Mr. Kostunica with information about Mafia and it's links with government and not to Mr. Djindjic. He knew about Mafia and its links with a government. As far as I remember he worked for the police. He had tons of internal information and he has chosen to confine to Mr. Kostunica not Mr. Djindjic. Why this choice when Mr. Djindjic had executive power in Serbia?

  Work of the government anti corruption commission was blocked by the government and legislature. Many members of the commission resigned. Some of them complained that the government has good relations with ex-regime people and that they do not want to loose them, additionally it looks that the new government is corruptible too.

  I have heard many times from the supporters of Mr. Djindjic that after the 5th October they wanted to execute many former communists and that Mr. Kostunica never allowed this to happen. I am really glad that Serbia and Montenegro had him as a had of state at that time. These days everybody in the West will be saying that the Serbs are bloodthirsty and that change of the government in the Serbia can only happen in a pool of blood.

  It seams that Serbia of Mr. Djindjic followers is a rare country that needs state of emergency to fight criminals.

  We only know what we are told about contacts of Mr. Djindjic and Mr. Legija by Mr. Djindjic not by some other independent investigation.

  Actions of Mr. Kostunica were systematically sabotaged and he was even prevented to become the President of Serbia by expedient tricks of Mr. Djindjic and his followers
  
  Pera Bora
  Ottawa
  Canada

• Monday March 31, 2003 at 6:17 pm
  Mr. Kokotovic,

  To continue our personal discussion on this Forum would be clearly pointless. However many other participants have chosen to answer your arguments thoughtfully and non-emotionaly. I hope you would read them carefully. Particularly one by Mr. Denis Revell.

  These were the opinions of non-Serbs and presumably you would trust these better than mine.

  Lady and Gentlemen,

  Ms. Dakic, Mr. Revell, Mr. Trkla, Mr. David from Australia and Mr. Taylor. I thank you all for thoughtful and considerate reply to Mr. Kokotovic. I will spare the Forum of my personal discussion in the future. I understand that this is Forum established to discuss legal matters in conjunction of the trial of Mr. Milosevic.

  I allowed myself to engage in such a discussion because the process in recess.
  
  D. Jovanovic
  USA

• Monday March 31, 2003 at 6:27 pm
  Has the time for Milosevic's defence case come too close? Are there lots of people in YU who know too much and can blow the lid off what Dos memebers such as Djindjic and Co were/are doing and on whose behalf and in whose interests? What would have happened when Milosevic started calling his witnesses? Shock and awe maybe?

  Maybe they need a State of Emergency to ensure that their opponents are cleaned up, maybe they need to make sure Milosevic doesn't get any more information because he's doing too well in the ICTY? Maybe they need to cut off Milosevic's information flow and get rid of some witnesses or intimidate some potential witnesses so Milosevic doesn't blow the lid off what is really going on? Maybe they just can't risk the backlash from passing a new law on cooperation because the people may not have accepted it?

  We will see. One thing seems certain, many people will "sell" their "evidence" to the highest bidder in exchange for "immunity". In the meantime, the TRIALS by media and political statements from Dos leaders go on.

  As for May saying that what's going on in YU at the moment has nothing to do with the ICTY, that is a despicably corrupt and cynical lie! It may be more so that he really thinks that the ICTY has a lot to do with what's going on in YU. A rat by any other name is still a rat, no matter from which side you look at it.
  
  David
  Australia

• Monday March 31, 2003 at 6:44 pm
  And what about the Dos leadership asking the EC for a moratorium on the death penalty issue. Does that not sound like someone is a little too keen to "get rid of" some people, helter skelter?

  Having some people in jail may just be a little inconvenient if you actually need a purge to consolidate your position, especially if they're unrepentant. It's a pity YU doesn't have a Guantanamo. That would enable it to maintain its newly found democracy without affecting its EC application. Where was that Goli Otok again? Damn, it's in Croatia now. What a loss for the "democrats"!
  
  David
  Australia

• Monday March 31, 2003 at 7:05 pm
  

  Please read a new BBC version on events in Srebrenica at the following URL:

  http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/675945.stm

  Two contradictory quotes are following :

  "Serb forces began shelling Srebrenica. Bosnian Muslim fighters in the town asked for the return of weapons they had surrendered to the peacekeepers but their request was refused."

  "One peacekeeper was fatally wounded when Bosnian Muslims fired on retreating Dutch troops." How they fired with out weapons bits me? Where Dutch troops were retreating while they were asking for the air strikes?

  Another interesting quote:

  "About 15,000 Bosnian Muslim fighters had attempted to escape from Srebrenica overnight and were shelled as they fled through the mountains." When these people were recaptured to be massacred and how did they brake loose, in the first place?

  How any one can be prosecuted on Srebrenica charge when the story is changing all the time. Obviously no proper investigation has been done yet.
  
  Pera Bora
  Ottawa
  Canada

• Monday March 31, 2003 at 7:23 pm
  

  BBC Iraq latest: At-a-glance

  Monday, 31 March

  2108: Seven Iraqi civilians - all women or children - are killed by US troops firing on their vehicle after it refused to stop at a check point near Najaf.

  1945: President Bush says US will not relent "until Iraq is free".

  How many people in Iraq are freed from their lives daily? How many of them will survice till the bitter end.
  
  Pera Bora
  Ottawa
  Canada

• Monday March 31, 2003 at 7:24 pm
  

  Pera Bora,

  Given that the ICTY is the UN's child, and given that it was established to determine the "truth" about things like Srebrenica, why has it classified and embargoed information and UN reports on Srebrenica? It allegedly wants the "truth" but it refuses to release information which is relevant to its discovery.

  Who in the UN is stopping the information from being released? Which countries voted to block the information? I doubt that it was YU who could block it.

  When we get the answers to such questions then we might start seeing some light on the whole YU issue and who is really behind it. The same questions and issues relate to the Sarajevo marketplace massacres!

  Why is the UN not "cooperating" with the ICTY? Why is the UN not "cooperating" with itself in its search for truth and justice?

  It makes the ICTY's position quite clear. IT'S NOT MEANT TO REACH THE TRUTH! So how is it ever going to reach any justice?

  In the meantime, reports such as the BBC ones will have to do. Justice goes to the highest bidder, or "advertiser" as far as the media are concerned.
  
  David
  Australia

• Monday March 31, 2003 at 8:14 pm
  

  David excellent questions. I am just hoping that Mr. Milosevic will ask the ICTY to put the same pressure on the UN, NATO and NATO governments to release the relevant information under threat of sanctions. Am I naive? Yes I am, but this is an additional good question. Mr. Milosevic has nothing to loose to ask it and challenge the ICTY masters that this is something that they have to do in order to make his trial fair.

  This should go to the Security Council. The Serbian/Montenegro government can do this. Unfortunately they will not do it. If even such request reaches the Security Council I am afraid that Russians and Chines are not interested in it. I am very disappointed that they are behaving more as accomplices of the ICTY than its opponents. Well they voted for it to be established and they remained pretty silent all the time.

  I think that the Russian and Chinese government are too passive in the UN and that they are as guilty for its distraction as British and American government. I hold them accountable for what has happened in Yugoslavia and what is happening in Iraq.
  
  Pera Bora
  Ottawa
  Canada