 MILOSEVIC TRIAL DISCUSSION ARCHIVE |
| JURIST >> LEGAL NEWS - WORLD LAW >> Discussion >> Milosevic Trial Discussion Archive |
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Former Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic is on trial for war crimes in the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia at The Hague. This marks the first time a head of state has been personally prosecuted before an international criminal court.
Is Slobodan Milosevic getting a fair trial?
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- discussion archive
- Thursday May 01, 2003 at 12:26 am
D.JExactly right
Same problem in the 60's in the US. Uncontrollable mobs protesting Vietnam. Until Kent State and a 'final'of, National Guard 3, Kent State zero. That was the beginning of the end for 60's protestors.
I'm afraid some radical 'Iraqis' are going to have to be convinced that they lost, sooner rather than later.
J P
USA,Wis - Thursday May 01, 2003 at 12:32 am
This idea really hit me last night. Just how EVIL does an Aministration have to be to continue with the trial of Mislosevic? (Please keep in mind TWO Aministrations are involved. bush and Clinton)Neither 'man' is stupid. They both HAVE TO KNOW he is innocent. They also know he is ill. They have to be hoping against hope that something doesn't happen to clue in the majority that this is a farce.
I have been reading "Prison Writings", by Leonard Peltier. It should be required reading for every man, woman, and child, in this country. The 'leaders' of this country are just plain SICK!
I try to tell my friends what is going on. They don't want to hear about it. They don't care that we are leaving this mess for our kids, and their kids???
Rebecka Justice
Portland
OR - Thursday May 01, 2003 at 12:40 am
D. Jovanovic, There was a French film Crew with the Serbian Soldiers, TAPING the entire time. They tried to tell the world that there was a battle between Serbs and KLA and that the 'bodies' of civilians appeared AFTER the Serbs and Film Crew left the area.Course, that didn't fit Walker's 'scenario'.
That wouldn't be the first time Muslims killed their own to gain publicity against the Serbs, because experts stated that the two different Rocket attacks against the Sarejevo Market place, had come from behind MUSLIM lines.
Rebecka Justice
Portland
OR - Thursday May 01, 2003 at 2:43 am
Actually, FR JR from Wisconsin, that was National Guard FOUR, Kent State zero.Related what you say about "radical" Iraqis and to the unnecessary Vietnam "war" (just another brutal US turkey-shoot massacre, really), anyway, that "war" that the Kent Stater's were protesting, the score was US Stormtroopers THREE MILLION, VietCong 58,000 (not enough in my view).
Do you remember who won that one?
Reminds me of a story I heard, a true story, apparently:Someone on tour with a welsh rugby team in Asia (or Australia - not sure), but on the way back home to blightly they had to stop off in Hong Kong.
Anyhow, this was during the late 60's/early 70's and when they arrived in Hong Kong they found a bar and started drinking. A little later on, a big group of American GIs came in, obviously on their way home to the US from Vietnam, they too started drinking.
After a while, both parties were well lashed, one of the GIs, a hillbilly type deepsouth character I've been told, went up to one of the welsh boys and started mouthing off about Britain,
"Why don't you f*****g limeys go into Vietnam" asked the rather drunk GI.
"The VC seem to be doing a good enough job without our help" came the reply from one of the boys on the rugby team.
Cue bar room brawl of wild-west film proportions. The bar was completely trashed come the end of rumble.
Dennis Revell
USA - Thursday May 01, 2003 at 3:42 am
Arandjel,On what video tape did you see Legija with Milosevic?
I'm not sure if Isakov was the name that C-48 gave or not but when the April 29th transcript comes out you can read all about how the chairman of the Novi Sad Independent Media Association gambled away the money and the computers that Soros Foundation and the U.S. Embassy had given him.
Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States - Thursday May 01, 2003 at 5:27 am
JP
You wrote: "I'm afraid some radical 'Iraqis' are going to have to be convinced that they lost, sooner rather than later. "
No problem, and if they don't get it, they'll get it one way or the other, preferably in the neck, eh? Good on you, son... Adolf would have been proud to have you in a brown shirt. Stop sniffing the petrol and smell the coffee, mate.
Dennis
If you don't stop being so negative I'm going to have to tell your ma on you. :-) LOL
Excellent post. I have no idea how Milosevic manages to keep his cool so well. In any event, the "primitive Balkan butcher" leaves May and co way behind when it comes to gentlemanliness, dignity and honourable behaviour. Arandjel
Gee man, stop whingeing whenever someone criticises a point of view you sympathise with. No one's jumped on Rebecka for anything. I for one don't agree with her defence of the military and I'm quite prepared to say so. I think Rebecka might just be stronger than a cream puff, enough not to get offended by that. And in fact she might even change her mind after seeing some alternative viewpoints.
Yes, the two leaders of the free world are rotten enough to continue the show set for them. They're just the front men, like the news anchors who are there to parrot scripts written by someone else. What is really frightening is the degree of indolence the general American population shows towards what's being done in their name. But what is even MORE frightening is the degree of actual IGNORANCE some show as in some of the more fascist type posts above. (No prizes for guessing which ones, LOL)
David
Australia- Thursday May 01, 2003 at 5:33 am
Please disregard previous post, this is the correct one ...JP
You wrote: "I'm afraid some radical 'Iraqis' are going to have to be convinced that they lost, sooner rather than later. "
No problem, and if they don't get it, they'll get it one way or the other, preferably in the neck, eh? Good on you, son... Adolf would have been proud to have you in a brown shirt. Stop sniffing the petrol and smell the coffee, mate.
Dennis
If you don't stop being so negative I'm going to have to tell your ma on you. :-) LOL
Walter
Excellent post. I have no idea how Milosevic manages to keep his cool so well. In any event, the "primitive Balkan butcher" leaves May and co way behind when it comes to gentlemanliness, dignity and honourable behaviour.
Arandjel
Gee man, stop whingeing whenever someone criticises a point of view you sympathise with. No one's jumped on Rebecka for anything. I for one don't agree with her defence of the military and I'm quite prepared to say so. I think Rebecka might just be stronger than a cream puff, enough not to get offended by that. And in fact she might even change her mind after seeing some alternative viewpoints.
Rebecka
Yes, the two leaders of the free world are rotten enough to continue the show set for them. They're just the front men, like the news anchors who are there to parrot scripts written by someone else. What is really frightening is the degree of indolence the general American population shows towards what's being done in their name. But what is even MORE frightening is the degree of actual IGNORANCE some show as in some of the more fascist type posts above. (No prizes for guessing which ones, LOL)
David
Australia- Thursday May 01, 2003 at 6:37 am
I am glad the killing of at least 15 Iraqis civilians by US Army has not gone unnoticed, of course nobody in the Western media has called it a massacre since democratic armies don't do such nasty little deeds to other peoples of the world. How can any one characterized the Israeli incursion in Gaza today killing another 8 civilians?
Meanwhile International Justice is applied, pretty much in secret, to an elected, democratically elected leader who dared to disagree with the giant and its mignons.
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La- Thursday May 01, 2003 at 6:40 am
Happy May Day to the Working People of the World
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La- Thursday May 01, 2003 at 8:07 am
GogolAmen to that, and Happy May Day to you too.
I'm getting more and more to think that the Commies, despite their colossal mistakes, had it more or less right; well, compared to the "Capies" anyway; and that's a remarkable thing for me to say, never having been a Commie.
... although, not being American, I've never suffered from their visceral response to that word incessantly brainwashed into them since the 1950s. ...
Strikes me the worst thing they did was throw in the towel, second worse their rigid inflexibility leading to insufficient education of their people in some areas, mainly in not distrusting the West enough. I can't think of another reason they tried to pull down the Berlin Wall with the finger-nails, rather than trying to build it higher.
Bet Gorbachev feels like a right schmuck now, falling hook line and sinker for Reagan & Thatcher's patter.
Bring back Mutually Assured Destruction, all is forgiven. ;-)
_____________
David:
Where's me Prozac? ;-)
Dennis Revell
USA- Thursday May 01, 2003 at 8:39 am
It seems that today's witness is so secret that they won't even tell us what his/her pseudonym is.His/her testimony is being given completely in secret. The so-called "trial" was in closed session the entire day today.
P.S. Happy May Day to all!
Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States- Thursday May 01, 2003 at 1:40 pm
Executions: “This is justice”Sergeant Gus Covarrubias of the US army feels able to boast of executing an Iraqi captive by shooting him twice in the back of the head. The circumstances of his killing of a second Iraqi soldier are not clear. During his interview with the La Vegas Review-Journal Covarrubias referred to his execution in these words: “This is justice”.
At the press conference following his most recent Camp David summit, broadcasting to the world, Blair - a self styled paragon of virtue - worked himself up into an hysterical outburst and accused the Iraqi’s of executing two British soldiers. He had no evidence for this claim and the families of the bereaved were advised by the British Army that they had been killed in combat during an ambush.
We are now told that forensic tests, by a British medical team, are being conducted to establish whether or not Blair was correct in claiming executions. Regardless of the outcome of these tests this does not excuse Blair’s outburst, before the facts were known, which could only serve to stir up ethnic hatreds.
Elsewhere: Iraqi civilians are shot down by the score like dogs in the street in at least three incidents by the ?liberating/occupying? British and US forces for protesting, among other things, about the occupation of their property such as schools.
According to today’s Independent 2,500 Iraqi civilians were killed during the Anglo/US assault on Iraq and some10,000 Iraqi soldiers. Including those severely injured we may estimate at least 30,000 casualties. Many of these casualties were the victims of cluster bombs which the Independent claims numbered 50. General Myers claims 1,500 cluster bombs were deployed by aircraft alone!. That is some 375,000 independent bomblets of which at least some 40,000 have yet to explode. The number of bomblets delivered by artillery was not disclosed. The justification for the war the casus belli turned down by the UN as premature - the possession of Weapons of Mass Destruction by Iraq - have yet to be found.
If these WMD’s are never found then all this killing, maiming and destruction directed by Blair and Bush was for no valid reason in spite of Blair’s ‘dodgy dossier’: Fortuitous incidental results being the removal of the Saddam Hussein Regime - cemented in power by the West for so many years - and the fact that the US now controls three quarters of the earth’s oil reserves!
In contrast Milosevic’s legitimate 98/99 campaign in Kosovo to defeat an attempt by Islamic terrorists to annex a province of Serbia resulted in a fraction of the casualties inflicted by Blair and Bush in Iraq and would have been successful: Until the illegitimate intervention by Blair/Clinton on behalf - can you believe it - of Islamic terror? Apart from the initial mayhem in Kosovo itself the bombing of Serbia has caused some third of a million of Kosovo’s minority populations and loyal Kosovars to be displaced and dispossessed, thousands to be murdered and tens of thousands injured.
Slowly but surely Amnesty International begins to change its tune on Kosovo:
Amnesty International has repeatedly expressed concerns about the failure of both the authorities in Kosovo and in Serbia and Montenegro to systematically open investigations into the "disappearances" of over 3,000 ethnic Albanians believed to have been arrested by Serb military or paramilitary forces,(88) and of up to an estimated 1,200 Serbs and Roma believed to have been abducted by the UÇK/KLA or other armed ethnic Albanians, prior to and during the NATO Operation Allied Force, and following the arrival of KFOR and UNMIK in Kosovo.
Still biased in its criticism Amnesty International fails to mention the testimony of Bujar Bukoshi, a former ‘Prime Minister’ of Kosovo, that more than 1,000 of the 3,000 ethnic Albanians that ‘disappeared’ were murdered by the KLA. Thus victims of Serb forces including paramilitaries were less than 2,000: far fewer than the victims of the KLA.
In particular, Amnesty International's membership has campaigned to urge UNMIK police to open investigations into the abduction and killings of the estimated 1,200 missing Serbs, Roma and other minority groups.(89) According to the latest Consolidated List of Missing Persons, 4233 persons (3,324 Albanians and 909 minorities) are still considered as missing.(90)
More bias by Amnesty International: Note the arithmetic error above: It is 1,200 missing minorities from a total of 4,233 mispers leaving 3,033 missing Albanians: ‘more than 1,000 of which were victims of the KLA. Earlier in the report we see that some 1,000 have been murdered in Kosovo since Nato took charge in June 1999. Adding these to the more than 1,000 Kosovars murdered by the KLA according to Bujar Bukoshi and the1,200 mentioned above we have a total in excess of 3,200 victims of the KLA and their associates.
To spare Blair’s primus inter pares embarrassment Milosevic is now being forced to take the blame for the results of Nato backed Islamic terror aggression and many of their victims. Being subjected to a three year rigged trial for his life - behind bars - primarily because Blair claims Milosevic used excessive force!.
Some 3,200 KLA executions for which the KLA Leaders are not to be held accountable not to mention the casualties of Nato’s illegal bombing:
This is justice?
Peter Taylor
Herts/UK- Thursday May 01, 2003 at 3:34 pm
David 'Gee'? Seem to me like that aint very Australian. Not sure what your point was about Rebecka. I didnt say anything about Rebecka. The point you make about me being against anyone who does not have my view is wrong. If you read my post I said that I did not agree with Katherine post in whole. What I do not like is way mass acts. Is it not Australian to support underdog? Is it easy and brave to queue with mass to critisise someone? It does not mean person should keep quiet if they dont agree about something but person should think about consequence of action.Anna P You suggest that everyone here has same view right? You say no to this? Then why discussion consist here of to hit imperialism? (or US) Or sympathy to Milosevic. My own belief is that too many people come here to 'hide' from mainstream media to agree with each other. If that is not true then let everyone say something controversy, or do you all really believe same things?
Jari discussed, people made reaction. That was discussion now all we have is same comments over. Im here to learn new things not to listen to same view over again. Arguing with letters from Ku Klux Klan not make discussion, especially since he supports 'sacred' mass position on Milosevic and position on so called 'new' world order. I ask you Anna where is the discussion and difference in opinion? Also is it bad thing if one by one people fall out of discussion because they dont agree with majority view? But of course it is their fault if they dont feel their view is welcome isnt it? Nothing to do with rest of us right?
Andy, the one at Kula. He is definately there and he shakes hands with Sloba. Maybe you can get that Nico guy to correct his story but it is not first time Emperor clothes gets fact wrong.
Isakov by way already been shamed by our media. He negates being with DB but keep quiet about gambling in casino!
Walter sorry but last post was made in hurry. OK it is certain that lines will be cut in any way Hague and DOS can do. There is also something I know I can not say much about. Put it like this I know senior military figure who was helping to assist Milosevic. Way he see that is to make fair fight but he stopped after Djindjic death from his own choice. I just know as you and Andy does (I think) that it will be more difficult now.
I defend right of somebody to have view and not to be shouted by majority one by one. End result is same if person goes away then quality of so called debate goes down.
Calling names of disabled people and others is disgusting if Milosevic or anybody else does it. You might justify it in circumstance but there is little dignity in insults. Your final points we all agree on. But it would be great for thread if you and others could find something to disagree on!
Arandjel P V
Srbija- Thursday May 01, 2003 at 3:53 pm
As I was walking down the stair
I saw a man who wasn't there.
He wasn't there again today,
I wish he'd go away.
Peter Taylor
Herts/UK- Thursday May 01, 2003 at 4:27 pm
//Anna P You suggest that everyone here has same view right?//No. Obviously. I really don't know what you are going on and on and on about.
Peter's got you pegged, I think.
Anna P
California- Thursday May 01, 2003 at 5:41 pm
One find day in the middle of the night
Two dead men got up to fight
Back to back they faced each other
Drew their swords shot each other
( ... methinks, just what the hell is going on ... )
Dennis Revell
USA- Thursday May 01, 2003 at 7:01 pm
Methinks that Arandjel is seeing an invisible man...and wanting to send him away...
Anna P
California- Thursday May 01, 2003 at 10:11 pm
PeterYou forgot to account for Albanians killed by Clinton's bombers.
A reasonable estimate of Albanian civilians killed (murdered ?) by US aircraft is 200-250.
One needs to add to that the 75 - 150 KLA which appear to ha ve been killed by US aircraft.
AP V
NY
NY- Thursday May 01, 2003 at 11:05 pm
Dennis,Nice shot on the VC not needing help. Perhaps if OPEC went to the Euro and Canada fallowed we could help the world. Bankrupt the neocons, so they can't afford the bombs.
JP You have got to be a plant. Jari sent you to us for comic releif. Nobody can be that stupid unless his name is Bush.
Pertti Lindroos
Quesnel
BC Canada- Friday May 02, 2003 at 12:03 am
Arandjel,There is meeting somebody and then there is meeting with somebody. Shaking somebody's hand in passing isn't really a meeting. I doubt that Slobodan Milosevic can even remember all of the hands he shook. He probably shook hands with a million people.
Slobodan Milosevic shook Legija's hand on that video tape along with a hundred other people. Slobodan Milosevic shaking somebody's hand dosen't prove he was having any meetings with them.
You saw the tape, Slobodan Milosevic was at Kula in his capacity as the president of the republic to attend a ceremony, have a look around, and give a speech. There's nothing sordid about that.
At least we got to see the tape when Milosevic visited Kula. The tape I would like to see is the tape when Zoran Djindjic visited the JSO base in Kula on 11 November 2001.
Why has that tape been censored and why has the media been prohibited from broadcasting it? What did Mr. Djindjic tell Legija and company when he was there?
Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States- Friday May 02, 2003 at 12:06 am
Andy, Do you have any more info on that tapw with the late Djindjic? Anything, cause it is the first time I heard of it.thanks!
Dan B
Canada- Friday May 02, 2003 at 12:50 am
I am glad the killing of at least 15 Iraqis civilians by US Army has not gone unnoticed, of course nobody in the Western media has called it a massacre since democratic armies don't do such nasty little deeds to other peoples of the world. How can any one characterized the Israeli incursion in Gaza today killing another 8 civilians ?Civilians ? In Racak, this thread seems unanimous in characterizing the 'victims' as opposite 'fighters' for the most part. I agree. Why the double standard for Iraq and Palestine?
PL
I see most of you from Ca are from the left coast. It figures. Just heard Rush refer to Norman Mailer, http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,482-662789,00.html, being as kooky as Gore Vidal. And Rush is right 95.7% of the time. Norman is a 'drunk' and writes like one. Vidal has no excuse. Bush fortunately is president of the 'greatest' country ever, and may prove to be the 'greatest' leader ever. Chirac and Cretien are snobs with absolutely no concern for the 'hoveled'.
J P
USA,Wis- Friday May 02, 2003 at 1:44 am
JP,I can attest to the fact that Rush is a fool when it comes to anything to do with the Balkans, so how would he be right on everything else? Did he decide to be an ignoramus just on that one subject?
Anna P
California- Friday May 02, 2003 at 5:12 am
Doctor Patrick Ball (NATO) is back on the witness seat giving more evidence on Kosovo!
William Walker is not giving press conferences in Gaza, one foot on a Palestinian dead head, or is media hiding it?
William Walker is not wetting his finger on Iraqi blood courtesy of the US Marines, or is he?
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La- Friday May 02, 2003 at 6:13 am
OK it is all over with Doctor Ball and his mathematical theories and May (NATO) is happy to go back to his natural environment: close session, after all it was England which invented the revolutionary Water Closet a.k.a. around the world as WC.
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La- Friday May 02, 2003 at 7:22 am
JP, I have a question regarding the 'doublestandard' you mentioned. How can you compare Israeli military actions on occupied Palestinian soil and US military actions on occupied Iraqi soil with Serbian police actions on souvereign Serbian soil?
Aleks Stajic
Germany- Friday May 02, 2003 at 7:27 am
GogolBall's statistical shenanigans are deeply flawed as any first year maths student would conclude. ( It would take a Ph.d. in statistics to point out his methodology is a bit of a joke, but that for later)
Evidently Ball's research discovered that in "99.999999%" of refugee cases there was preceeding Yugoslav military activity. Therefore, Ball concludes a cause and effect; Yugoslav Army = Refugees.
The flaw which any First year maths student will point out is that Ball didn't test his his "99.99999999%" against other phenomenon. For example,
Refugees were also generated every time there was KLA action
Refugees were generated every time there was US bombingBall make the amatuer's error of equating cause and effect of two events which may or may not be related. It is the classic falw know as "Rooster who tells the world his crowing causes the sun to rise each day"
AP V
NY
NY- Friday May 02, 2003 at 8:13 am
Aleks Stajic- That isn't exactly what was compared. He compared the spin that is being put on these conflicts. Why is everyone so quick to believe that in Iraq and the West Bank there are only innocent civilians being killed when your own experience dictates that you should be suspicious of these claims. PS I tend to be suspicous of those who speak of 'occupied territory' as if the 'Palestinians' where somehow conquered by an act of aggression. Their leader is Egyptian and a nephew of a Nazi collaborator who's well known aim is to destroy Israel.
Joel Aksamit
Cleveland
Mo USA- Friday May 02, 2003 at 8:40 am
Dan B.,On the night of 11 November 2001 Zoran Djindjic went to the JSO base at Kula to meet with the leadership of the Red Berets. The Red Berets demanding that Dusan Mihajlovic be fired because he had tricked them into arresting Predrag and Nenad Banovic under false pretences so that they could be extradited illegally to the Hague.
As part of their protest several dozen JSO members blocked the highway near Sava Centre, the left lane which runs from Novi Beograd to Belgrade.
After the 3 hour meeting with Djindjic the Red Berets agreed to end their protest. The JSO even went so far as to thank Djindjic saying in a statement that "he was the only one who understood them."
The Red Berets videotaped this meeting, and I for one would like to know what was said that night. It has been rumored that Legija (who until recently had been the JSO commander) was there. The SPO and the SRS both say that Legija was there and that the video tape would prove it, but the contents of the video are a big secret.
Here is a statement form the SPO:
SPO DEMANDS THAT PROHIBITED TAPE BE SHOWN
Saturday, 17 November 2001
Serbian Renewal Movement demands that the media, without censorship, disclose the contents of a video tape taken by the Special Operations Unit of the State Security Depatment during the visit of prime minister Zoran Djindjic to their center in Kula on 11 November this year.
The fact that broadcasting of the contents of this tape is prohibited shows that Djindjic promised one thing to Legija and SOU members, spoke something else, and did quite a different thing. This shows that he has not visited Kula to solve the problems, but to fabricate new problems and to manipulate, which is his inherent characteristic.
Legija gave an interview to BKTV the night after the Djindjic meeting and said that he supported the Hague Tribunal, but that the Red Berets wanted a law on cooperation before arresting any more indictees.
The same day that Legija talked to BKTV he was infront of a Belgrade District Court judge being questioned along with Branko Djuric over the "assassination attempt" against Vuk Draskovic on the Ibar Highway.
Less than a month later the Belgrade District court called off the investigations against Legija and Branko Djuric.
Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States- Friday May 02, 2003 at 10:16 am
AS
IMO, there was insurection in Iraq, Palistine, and Kosovo,and those responsible for maintaining order were justified in their dealing with it.Milosevic did what he was elected to do, yet NATO/EU twisted the facts to justify demolishing Yugoslavia.
Milosevic 'won' his case in the 1st month and most posting here agree. Jari proved it over and over, with stating how rediculous the 'tribunal' is, But how long can you continue to shadow box, before taking an extended timeout, as Jari apparently has done.
J P
USA.Wis- Friday May 02, 2003 at 11:20 am
There are crimes and all crimes should be treated equally, a justice measure for all.
Now, the debate is what constitutes a crime or so it seems:
Perfectly OK to the western media, the press, authorities etc., to kill 15 Iraqis demonstrating against a well armed US Marines occupying a public school.
Perfectly OK for another organized army, the euphemistically called IDF to spend over 16 hours with tanks, helicopters gun ships, etc., arresting some people in the midst of the kasba and in the process kill more civilians including children. No problem, right?
But if the Yugoslav Armed Forces are engaged in a regular, under international observers, operations against an insurgent, terrorist, foreign armed, equipped, financed and the not neutral at all, William Walker declares there is a massacre the international community of NATO bombs Yugoslavia for 78 days.
Logical? In a twisted mind perhaps.
Now, could also Patrick Ball, conclude with his woo-du math models where the weapons of mass destruction are hidden, or if they exist at all?
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La- Friday May 02, 2003 at 12:49 pm
"I have no need to appoint (a) counsel", Milosevic said, - considering the Tribunal at the Hague to be illegal and the Indictment to be false. From that initial appearance on Tuesday, July 3rd, 2001 the former President of Serbia courageously conducted a defence on his own. (With regard to the alleged "massacre" at the village of Racak in Kosovo on January 15th, 1999 a conflict between the evidence offered (on May 29th and 30th, 2002) by a Canadian general Maisonneuve, who were on that occasion in charge of the OSCEs team on the ground, and that offered a fortnight later, om May 12th by the American Head of the KVM, Ambassador William Walker, always appeared to me as crucial, - but then I am no lawyer). After more than a year, more than a hundred, day-long open sessions later - and with transcripts of the proceedings taking up more than 10.000 pages - on September 11th, 2002, Judge May would say: "Yes, Mr. Milosevic! What is your final comment?" "I have no final comment," Milosevic responded: "All I would like is for you to enable me to hold a press conference. The Prosecutors are constantly giving statements to the press, I can see now that the amicus are making statements to the press, - it would be logical to allow me to hold a press conference likewise." Judge May: "The usual Rules of Detention apply to you. We will adjourn now until the 26th." Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.49 p.m... ...Now, - could someone kindly tell me "untill when"? What is next in the "Kosovo part"? Godfred Louis-Jensen, architect
Godfred Louis-Jensen
Copenhagen
DENMARK- Friday May 02, 2003 at 1:26 pm
David,>Arandjel, No one's jumped on Rebecka for anything. I for one don't agree with her defence of the military and I'm quite prepared to say so. I think Rebecka might just be stronger than a cream puff, enough not to get offended by that. And in fact she might even change her mind after seeing some alternative viewpoints. <
Arandjel hadn't said anything about me???? Seems to be a bit of a subliminal message in there???
No! She definately will NOT change her mind. Stop and think about something. You and several other posters on this Forum have lumped ALL US Soldiers together as "Paid Killers". You get your hands on an item about what a few soldiers did and that automatically PROVES your point???
I have to wonder about your views on Women? Indians? Blacks? Chicanos? In two of those categories I am personally 'involved'.
As a woman in the 60s, 70s, and 80s, I FOUGHT for a place in the Electronics Industry. For instance, as an Engineer at Boeing, Wichita in the 80s, I singlehandedly SAVED the SCAMP Module project. My boss said, "You should be Employee of the Month".
Trouble was, Boeing believed with the rest of the world that women are not as 'good' at Electronics as men. Seven months later, after many other 'considerations on the part of Boeing Management and after I had put in 2 weeks notice, I was awarded, belatedly, Employee of the Month. What a hollow victory.
I am part American Indian. They 'own' a Stereotype also. Most people consider, on the basis of SOME, that ALL Indians are just a bunch of drunks. Not so, There are many, many, Indians who never touch alcohol. A great many of them also have College Degrees.
I remember Sgt. Stone, who was with 2 other GIs captured by the Serbs just prior to the bombing of Kosovo. We were hearing all sorts of horror stories about how those guys were being treated. Stories considered FACT.
Well, those 3 soldiers were released. Sgt. Stone went on Worldwide Media stating, unequivocally, that he had received THE BEST OF TREATMENT FROM THE SERBS. This despite media attempts to MAKE him say something nasty about them.
I have often wondered what happened to Sgt Stone. He had been 'debriefed' and the rest of his statements made it obvious that the Military 'preferred' he NOT make these statements. I have often wondered what happened to him on this account.
What you and several others on this Forum fail to realize, is that there are a lot of Sgt. Stones in the Military. Instead you rely on the stereotype Lt. Calleys.
NO! I will not change my mind, but you might consider changing your own bias. I will not change my opinion for another reason. It took me a very long time to realize what was going on in this country and how we are being lied to. I am certainly NOT going to fault 18 and 19 year olds for being fooled. Everyone of us has to go by what we know of the truth. Kind of hard to find fault with kids who have been taught a lie all their short lives.
Of course, you need a SCAPEGOAT and the kids are gonna be it. Never mind that large numbers of them have done great service for our country. Bet you didn't even know about the 'Services' they have done.
Fighting Forest Fires? Floods? The list goes on. Now why would 'Paid Killers" do that?
One last point, there is almost always a Commander behind any action of any GIs. Even Lt. Calley had a Commander. The difference was, LT Calley was considered 'expendable'. Commanders are not. After all, someone who can get his unit to do what Lt. Calley's did, is very, very, valuable to the way the US Military sees it's duty. :(
Rebecka Justice
Portland
USA- Friday May 02, 2003 at 3:33 pm
Rebecka,You have voiced, almost to the letter, what I have said in the recent years about Sgt. Stone. It would be VERY interesting to know how he was hushed up. In contrast, recall the guy who parachuted out over Bosnia and laid low for a couple of days or so until he was rescued -- we had no end of appearances by him on TV and he also put out a book, about how he eluded the deadly and horrific Serbs. Who knows what they might have done to him had they caught him!
I wish Sgt. Stone and his commrades would write a book. Fat chance.
Anna P
California- Friday May 02, 2003 at 9:13 pm
Anna, Actually Sgt. Stone was not hushed up. The Media, Militry and Clinton did not get the response from him that they wanted, so NO more Interviews.I wish there were a copy of that Interview. He came right out and said they had TOLD him what to say. Obviously they thought he was going to 'perform', or he wouldn't have been on in the first place.
Every now and then these 'mistakes' find their way into what is published. There was also a Sgt. and several Pvts. with L. Calley who tried to stop the rest of the unit. We heard about them a whole sum total of ONCE.
Just because we don't hear about the 'good' soldiers is no sign there aren't any. It is rather a sign that the powers that be do not want their message bandied about.
There was also an AF General who spoke out against the bombing and REFUSED to participate. I had his story but have lost it and can't remember his name. Anybodys guess as to what happened to him.
Now Sgt. Stone and the Air Force General are just a couple of examples. I wonder how many more were just consigned to the dustbins of History that we will never hear about, because they never got an Interview?
Sorry to carry on like this but it is totally unfair to demonize a whole group of people for the actions of a limited few. To expect these kids to understand that they shouldn't be there in the first place is assinine. They are only acting on what they have been taught their whole lives.
I sincerly believe there are people on this Forum who would be very shocked if they were to learn how many of those kids got their first real taste of 'America' with their first combat.
Read up on some of the guys that served in Vietnam. When they went they were doing what they thought was right. The truth hit them while they were in combat. (I had done a search for War Protesters and came up with Vietnam Veterans for peace.)
Aleks Stajic, I can't believe you of all people would put down the State of Israel, living where you live?? There is a great book that I read a long time ago called "The Haj".
The Muslim people fled the region when Israel declared a State. It was only after the people of israel had reclaimed the swamps etc., that those people decided they wanted the property back.
Kind of difficult not to see that Israel is defending itself against the suicide bombers on their OWN territory. This suicide bombing is taking place IN the State of Israel. Not some arbitrary Palestine.
Rebecka Justice
Portland
OR- Friday May 02, 2003 at 9:18 pm
Anna, Sorry, I forgot. I really think someone would have contacted Sgt. Stone about co-authoring a book long ago, but there really wasn't enough material to write a book about. More logically, someone should compile a book from the Sgt. Stones, Vietnam Veterans, etc. from all of Americas wars. I would buy it. :)
Rebecka Justice
Portland
OR- Friday May 02, 2003 at 10:21 pm
http://www.vibrani.com/Arafat.htmRecently, several months after the outbreak of the "El-Aqsa Intifada," even stout supporters of the Oslo Peace Process have begun to wonder whether Arafat can still be seen as a trustworthy partner in that process. Raising this question shows either real or pretended ignorance about the PLO chieftain who was made Nobel Peace Price Laureate together with the late PM Rabin.
You can trust Arafat fully once you know what he stands for, because he simply does not deviate from his course. To see just what that is, one must look at the entire picture, and not merely at the part of it which seems to fit nicely with dreams of peace.
The term "Arafat" appears in the Koran, Surah "The Cow," 194. It refers to a hill near Mecca, the climbing of which--after visiting the Kaaba--crowns a Muslim's obligatory pilgrimage. In the mid 1960's, this hill's name--Arafat--was adopted as a nom de guerre by Abdul Rauf el-Chodbi el-Husseini, a member of the well-known el-Husseini family which produced the Grand Mufti, Haj Amin el-Husseini.
Haj Amin is the same "Grand Mufti of Palestine" who organized the anti-Jewish riots of 1921/22, 1929, and 1936/38. He started the pro-Nazi revolt in Iraq in 1940, escaped to Germany, where he befriended the Nazi leaders. He raised for them two SS-divisions from the Muslim population of occupied Yugoslavia and southern Russia, and urged the Muslim world to wage a Jihad [Holy War] against Jews. In 1943 he broadcast from Radio Berlin: "Kill the Jews wherever you find them - this is pleasing to Allah. He was arrested in 1945 by the French who released him shortly thereafter.
Joel Aksamit
Cleveland
Mo USA- Saturday May 03, 2003 at 12:21 am
Hmm, finally a skunk in the woodpile? http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/904953/posts
J P
USA.Wis- Saturday May 03, 2003 at 12:56 am
Joel,Here's another article you might like:
http://emperors-clothes.com/gilwhite/Israel.htm
I should point out to any lurkers here that Slobodan Milosevic has so far been neutral on the Israel/Palestine conflict. He isn't on record anywhere giving an opinion on that conflict one way or the other.
Some members of the SPS, SLOBODA and the ICDSM have a pro-Palestinian position, and others have a pro-Israeli position.
In my own personal opinion I favor Israel, in particular I favor the Israeli right-wing.
Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States- Saturday May 03, 2003 at 9:45 am
Rebecka, One does not choose to be a woman, an Indian, a Black, or a Chicano. However, one does choose to be a soldier & one can be held accountable/responsible for choices made.
Marcus Dunne
Canada- Saturday May 03, 2003 at 10:50 am
Marcus, It is so gratifying to learn that you are COMPLETELY WITHOUT any sins at all. That you ALWAYS knew the difference between right and wrong and the lies we are told. :)It is also interesting that you chose to ignore most of my post. What part of the 'few' did you not understand? Or is it just that you have decided EVERYONE in the Military is just plain evil?
Personally, I tend to let GOD decide who is with or without sin. HE has so much more experience.
Rebecka Justice
Portland
OR- Saturday May 03, 2003 at 3:04 pm
Mr. Wicoxson.Your statement:
“In my own personal opinion I favor Israel, in particular I favor the Israeli right-wing.”
strangely approximates my own points of view!
In that conflict what I resent is only the double standard American media have exhibited toward the situation in Kosovo. There the Serbian forces were truly combating an armed terrorism, supported from outside and infiltrating across the border from Albania.
I do not believe that the Palestinians as well as Albanians were mistreated in their habitats, rather the turmoil is instigated by some other interests.
D. Jovanovic
USA- Saturday May 03, 2003 at 3:19 pm
Reading all this hullabaloo about our brave soldiers in the press I am motivated to write a short essay on “bravery” and heroism..I am reminded of a story I was told by Russian soldiers. In a fight somewhere in the steppes of Ukraine a platoon of Russian Red Army soldiers was pinned down by a well fortified German machine gun bunker. The soldiers were all lying down and were being killed one by one. First one tried to come close and when he tried to throw a grenade was killed. Then the second tried. He was killed too. Then, one of them stood up and run straight into the opening of the bunker, right into the machinegun barrel and with his body screen others. THAT IS HEROISM! That is bravery.
In this last conflict in Iraq the quoted casualty numbers are 138 U.S military killed and some 10,000 to 20,000 Iraqi soldiers. The odds were 100:1. Adding to this disproportionate armament capability I would call this a fight of almost shooting the fish in the barrel. Perhaps odds equal in rock climbing a sheer rock face. ( BTW I did that in my youth). But this war was such an uneven conflict that although risky, soldiers knew that the risks were minimal. That is NOT bravery, and that on the whole is not heroism.
D. Jovanovic
USA- Saturday May 03, 2003 at 5:38 pm
If serving in the Military is about defending the nation, this burden if it is one should be shared by all patriots equally and not delegate it to another class, you may as well sell your nation to the highest bidder. This might have already happened.
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La- Saturday May 03, 2003 at 5:41 pm
It must all be another tradition inherited from the English whom in 1914 used to say England will fight until the last drop of blood of the French. No wonder this francophobia resurfaces periodically.
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La- Saturday May 03, 2003 at 5:43 pm
DJDoing the right thing, despite detrators, takes courage, and W has that.
Taking on a world wide enemy network supported by billions of people and millions of petrol dollars, dedicated to yours and the worlds demise is brave. Going into Afghanistan we took a huge risk. The Germans said it could't be done and so did the Russians. But in hindsight it worked out due to all the brave forces from the Northern Alliance, US, English, etc.
If we can continue and do it like 'shooting fish in a barrel', so much the better. Americans are about living, not dying.
J P
USA.Wis- Saturday May 03, 2003 at 5:45 pm
Slobodan Milosevic, Question to Doctor Patrick Ball:
Do you know what homo sapiens means?
Judge May (NATO):
You don't have to answer this question!
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La- Saturday May 03, 2003 at 5:49 pm
The NAZIS were very proud of daring to do things, that included mass murder.
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La- Saturday May 03, 2003 at 6:23 pm
JPI remember General Patton’s words:
“ It is not about dieing for your country, it is making the other s.o.b dieing for his!~ This is being practical and NOT brave. Perhaps you have a broader definition of the word.
Do you really think that Bush had some doubts that we could not win in Iraq?
D. Jovanovic
USA- Saturday May 03, 2003 at 8:59 pm
That trustworthy witness who claims to have been waiting tables whilst overhearing coherently and comprehensively exposed (for the waiter's ears only) confirmation of the already committed war crimes and the secret plans to perpetrate new war crimes, C-48, was vehemently debunked by no other than one of the numerous Vice-Presidents of the Serbian Government. Why would someone from our group of 'democratic rulers' do such a horrid thing as to destroy a precious witness of the dearly beloved and indispensable ICTY? Well, because that same Vice-President, Miodrag-Mile Isakov, happened to be the one mentioned in the testimony of the said C-48. The transcripts for that particular testimony are not out yet, but you've probably already read somewhere the gist of what was said: apparently, Mile (then a journalist) loved to gamble, was a regular at the Casino Royal in Novi Sad, gambled away even some Soros donations intended for his 'independent' media, and was blackmailed because of his vices into collaborating with the State Security. Mile reacted to this by jocularly admitting to have enjoyed a bit of gambling, but denied everything else - squandered funds and Security links. Alas, the thing just wouldn't die away with that suave, playful denial, so today Mile had to put his foot down seriously. Here's the translation of a small article that appeared in our media [Source: FreeSerbia, 3 May]:[quote] ISAKOV: I SHALL SUE THE HAGUE TRIBUNAL - Novi Sad - The Vice-President of the Serbian Government and the leader of the Vojvodina Reformists Party (Reformisti Vojvodine), Miodrag Isakov, stated that he intended to sue The Hague Tribunal because of the statement given by the protected witness C-48, who alleged that Isakov had been under control of the State Security of Serbia. "If there is the slightest possibility for me to sue The Hague Tribunal, I shall do so. It is illogical that any punk could become a protected witness and spit upon any honourable citizen," Isakov said to the today's "Gradjanski list" [Citizens' Gazette] from Novi Sad. Isakov judged the witness C-48 as "rigged" and added he would insist the identity of this witness to be revealed so that he could sue him then. He announced that he would request all the files of all the secret services to be opened in order to expose those from the present government who worked for them. The protected witness C-48 on the trial against Slobodan Milosevic at The Hague Tribunal said that the Serbian State Security controlled Isakov at the beginning of 1990s due to his gambling debts at the Casino Royal in Novi Sad. [end quote]
Notice the irony: as soon as one of those hundreds of outrageously unbelievable 'witnesses' against Milosevic so much as mentions anybody from our currently 'ruling' group, such witness is immediately pronounced to be a 'punk', 'rigged' and allowed to 'spit upon any honourable citizen'. Well, Mile, I've got the news for you: such witnesses are prevalent throughout the Milosevic 'trial'. Thanks for noticing one of them, but you wouldn't have done that if you had not been at the receiving end of his 'testimony'. It's obviously OK for the vile Milosevic to be convicted with the help of such false witnesses, but not the precious person of Mr Isakov. If he has troubled himself, as a 'democratic politician' and an 'independent journalist' to denounce this falsity before, when it only concerned his hated political opponent, this would have never happened to him. But, he didn't have the guts to speak up, he even gloated at the rigging organized to help the Prosecution's 'case' and now he himself is in trouble. You know that saying describing selfishness: Koga svrbi, taj se cese = The one with the itch scratches himself. Isakov should've scratched the problem of the false Hague witnesses before, when they were not his itch, but as a matter of principle. Now, he has the itch and The Hague witnesses are being portrayed in our obedient media as reliable, revealing, damning. Well, one of them 'revealed' something about Isakov, and therefore must be 'rigged'. How about turning things around? This witness has been rigged (as probably many others), therefore what he revealed about both Isakov and Milosevic is worthless.
A few words about the background of the 'Isakov case'. See how readily Mile judged C-48 as 'rigged' and how he threatened to request all the files of the secret services to be opened to 'expose those from the current government who worked for them'. This is so telling. It shows once more this newly developed post-Djindjic co-operation of our government and the ICTY. Who rigged C-48? Obviously, our government, as they helped write the synopsis for nearly each and every other witness. Why would I think so? Because the style and even the wording of so many of those testimonies (and, what's more, of the indictment itself) is exactly the style and wording of DOS writings while they were in opposition. How did Isakov's name come up in that testimony? Somebody wanted to spite Isakov and added those few lines into the ready-made script. How do I know that? The wrath of Mr Isakov tells me that, when he proclaims C-48 to be rigged and in the same breath threatens to expose others from his own government to be police snitches. Why would the colleagues of Isakov set him up, along with rigging C-48 to accuse Milosevic? All those DOS figures were or are in one way or the other connected with one or the other criminal type. In their efforts to hide it, they quickly place the blame onto other DOS figures, before they place the blame on them. Thus, it has been published that one Dragoslav Gavrancic from another DOS Lilliputian party from Vojvodina distributed to the press a photograph of a well-known drug dealer from Novi Sad linked to the Zemun gang, one Nenad Opacic, together with some of the top DOS leaders, Mile Isakov among them. [Source: FreeSerbia, 16 April] It has been also leaked into the press that some guardsmen from the prison where Dusan Spasojevic was once held (one of the two alleged conspirators in the Djindjic killing who had been conveniently shot dead by the police), came to Isakov recently offering their testimony that Spasojevic had been indeed visited in prison by another Vice-President of the Serbian Government, Cedomir Jovanovic, the thing hotly denied by the latter. [Source: DAN, 25 April] So, Isakov was not only publicly linked with mobsters, he is potentially a very inconvenient witness himself for the wrongdoings of the same type against his pals from the Government. Therefore, it was most convenient that he should be 'incidentally' mentioned in a testimony of a witness at that holy-cow institution which is ICTY and thus smeared and politically destroyed.
And that's that. This whole thing is just one more sign of relentless internal fight that's been raging among DOS leaders over the last 10 years and that has come to a head after the assassination of Djindjic. The most outstanding cases in point so far are the Covic-Jovanovic and Canak-Veselinov ruthless verbal matches, these people being all members of the same Serbian Government, but at each others throats. They all mistrust and despise each other profoundly and now the final battle among them became open, so much so that some even risk to jeopardize the sacred NATO cause of condemning Milosevic for everything under the sun. My guess is that Isakov has crossed the line and would have to be sacrificed. You just don't call the ICTY witnesses 'rigged' (although they are) if you are a member of a government that has been rigged as well by the same puppeteers.
Vera Martinovic
Belgrade
Yugoslavia- Saturday May 03, 2003 at 11:59 pm
your guess is likely to be correct........and I'll venture Montegomory is being sounded out right now..........
AP V
NY
NY - Thursday May 01, 2003 at 5:33 am