MILOSEVIC TRIAL DISCUSSION ARCHIVE

Is Slobodan Milosevic getting a fair trial?
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• discussion archive

• Friday May 16, 2003 at 5:44 am
  

  Free Slobodan Milosevic! Dissolve NATO?s inquisition tribunal! Stop the persecution of oppositionists and restore elementary democratic rights in Serbia!

  
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Shangri-La

• Friday May 16, 2003 at 7:47 am
  
  Goto www.antiimperialista.com/en/

  Select ‘Search’

  In the ‘Search’ box type “Freedom for Slobodan Milosevic”

  Click on this title returned.

  First stage OR

  Enter the URL:

  www.antiimperialista.com/en/view.shtml?category=10&id=1052747289&keyword=+
  
  HTML Correction
  Hopefully

• Friday May 16, 2003 at 8:55 am
  
  Miss trial: Free Milosevic
  
  HTML Correction
  Hopefully

• Friday May 16, 2003 at 3:11 pm
  P.M.

  beg to differ w/ you regarding the Liberation of Srebrenica, but I certainly agree that there are many who need to come to terms with what happened there.

  At the Krtsic hearings the War Party made no accusation that any civilians were killed. They accused the BSA of killing POW's.

  I agree with you that everyone should be careful to deeply understand exactly what happened during the Liberation of Srebrenica.......

  A couple of hundred BSA soldiers routed 10,000 members of the 28th BiH under Nasir (Naser) Oric's command. During the subsequent retreat of the 28th, the BSA failed miserably in its attempts to annhilate the 28th. In a series of running firefights, the thinly stretched BSA was only able to inflict a 10-20% casulty rate upon the fleeing 28th BiH.

  Exhaustive forensic investigations have borne these facts out. In addition to finding members of the 28th killed in a fair fight, forensic investigators have discovered about 1,200 bodies of unknown identity in the villages where Nasir (Naser) Oric's execution squads operated.

  It is pretty clear that once these bodies are identified there will be many people who will finally have to come to terms with the harsh truth of what their hate mongering leaders force fed them during the 1990's.

  One can only hope that the American people have the courage to face up to what was done in their name. Perhaps, they may even have the courage to bring their fellow citizens responsible to justice.
  
  AP V
  NY
  NY

• Friday May 16, 2003 at 3:15 pm
  Mr.P.M.

  Your arguments about Srebrenica apper to me cogent and rational. Yet I do find it difficult to understand that more accurate proof in not available: no bodies, no eye witnesses of such a massive execution, no list of names.

  The strongest argument you have is that such horrible events are a potent propaganda tools.
  
  D. Jovanovic
  USA

• Friday May 16, 2003 at 5:04 pm
  For some visual inspiration, some of you might enjoy looking at these photos -- I came across this site by chance, but was very glad to have found it. Others here might already know it...

  http://www.focus.co.yu/index.htm
  
  Anna P
  California

• Friday May 16, 2003 at 5:47 pm
  

  otpor equals 36,000 000 US dollars. Film included.
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Shangri-La

• Friday May 16, 2003 at 6:24 pm
  How do you put in spacing?
  
  P. M.
  USA

• Friday May 16, 2003 at 6:29 pm
  D. Jovanovic They have found bodies, several thousands of them, but they are not all identified. I think it is reasonable to say that the majority are Muslims but that many are Serb victims of Oric. What you say about eyewitnesses is true, and that is why the whole Srebrenica affair is so murky. Recently, a mass grave of Muslims in Foca was uncovered because a Serb from Foca felt such a burden to expose the truth that he informed the relevant authorities of the site. So, there will usually be a person who will speak out. I am not talking about general slander and mudslinging that Natasa Kandic and Sonja Biserko perform, but just regular eyewitnesses who are willing to testify about a crime perpetrated by members of their own ethnic group. What is bizarre is that they have not yet found Serb witnesses either in the army, police, civilian authority, or just generally civilians, willing to testify of something. Which probably means that either someone else was involved in the crime (such as the Muslims or Izetbegovic), or that someone is threatening these potential witnesses. In the murkiness of Srebrenica, I think that there probably are very few Serb witnesses to the crime, and even less willing to testify.
  
  P. M.
  USA

• Friday May 16, 2003 at 6:34 pm
  what is that "otpor" reference to + "film"?
  
  Anna P
  California

• Friday May 16, 2003 at 6:41 pm
  AP V I remember talking to my great aunt two years ago. She's a rather old woman now. And almost with tears in her eyes (but more so anger in her voice), I think she put it how it was. I think that in the most recent wars, the Serb military and associated structures truly tarnished its name as never before. This is actively being ascribed to the entire nation, which I reject. Nevertheless, it saddens me to realize that in the most recent wars we "brought ourselves down" to the level of our longtime enemies, the Albanians, Croats, and Muslims (also speaking of their militaristic, fascist factions). We stooped to their level. We were no better than the rest. It is very difficult for us Serbs (and many sympathetic foreigners) to accept this or even believe it. We who lived through Austro-Hungarian and Bulgarian terror in WWI, and the death of so many innocents? We who lived through 500 years of Osmanli and Austrian occupation, forced conversion, murder, blood taxes (dersivme), impalement, kuluk, etc.? We who lived through genocide in WWII at the hands of our Yugoslav neighbors, the Croat and Muslim Ustase, Kama, and Handzar? We, who were attacked by all and yet stood up to Hitler and put up the greatest resistance in occupied territory, more than France or Poland? I think it was incoceivable to many of us, then, that we could behave at the same level as the Croats, Muslims, and Albanians. But we did. That's probably why it is so difficult to conceive that Srebrenica could have taken place. While I certainly agree that the media is a party to war crimes and that CNN, BBC, etc. all belong in criminal trials and in prison, it doesn't change the fact that we were a party to the war. And certainly the media distorted whatever events did happen. I don't for one moment conceive of Srebrenica as some sort of herding of 8000 or 11000 innocent men and boys, tying their hands with wire and blindfolding them, raping the women (some have even made claims of that), and then shooting them in cold blood and hiding the evidence with chemicals and bulldozers. That is a fabrication from hell and is designed to totally cover up Oric's monstrous deeds, but certainly some sort of crime did take place at Srebrenica and it should be elucidated impartially and certainly not by Carla and her perverts of justice. I won't give estimates of who did what to whom, and how. Most probably, the Serbs killed and expelled the most, and were killed and expelled the most of all the 4 ethnic groups we're talking about. Which was logical, given that they were the glue that held together Yugoslavia, and that is why they were targetted by revamped fascism and Islamic fundamentalism. But this in no way justifies any of the crimes that followed.
  
  P. M.
  USA

• Friday May 16, 2003 at 6:59 pm
  P.M.

  You're right. And your aunt was right to be angry. I believe it is we Serbs who should dig out the truth in detail and prosecute those responsible, wherever possible. That is the only way to expurgate our people of the war, or at least of this black mark, whether or not it is completely distorted by those who wish to keep Serbs down. We should not be afraid to face ourselves in the mirror.

  On the other hand, I believe a great many Serbs have been disgusted by the exploitation of Srebrenica, with all the associated exagerations cooked up to further demonize Serbs and Serbia, and therefore they have rejected it out of hand. Like you said, "something" happened there. Until Serbs delve deep enough to find the truth, which they should then bring out for all the world to see, this apparition of a Serbian-caused massacre will hang over us. Not facing it doesn't help, it just remains a weight around our ankles.
  
  Anna P
  California

• Friday May 16, 2003 at 7:03 pm
  Couldn't have put it better myself, Anna. Thanks. Again, how do you get spacing?
  
  P. M.
  USA

• Friday May 16, 2003 at 7:10 pm
  

  Anyone trying to solve the events in Srebrenica should take a look at Katyn. The Nazi discovered and blamed on the Red Army. At Nüremberg the Nazi were made responsible for it. In fact if you study the event it is easy to blame even the weather and certainly the birds.

  There was one terrible handicap for all propagandists in 1943: no TV was available and the masses had to rely on the word either spoken by radio or written on newspapers. . .
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Shangri-La

• Friday May 16, 2003 at 7:10 pm
  If you go to this page and go down to the section "Paragraph and Line Breaks" you will see how to do it. Just standard HTML formatting.
  
  Anna P
  California

• Friday May 16, 2003 at 11:42 pm
  P.M. and Anna,

  The ethnic group of the purpetrators is beside the point. The point is who the criminals were working for.

  For such a large scale crime to be carried out there would have to be a motive. What possible motive could Karadzic, Mladic or Milosevic (since he's accused) have to let Oric and his men escape Srebrenica, and then kill only the remaining civilian men? Wouldn't it have made more sense to chase after Oric and try and kill him?

  For that matter why on Earth would Oric and his men leave Srebrenica to begin with? Was it so that the Sarajevo authorities could stage this crime against those Muslims, blame the Serbs for it, and thereby weaken the Serbian position in the peace negotiations?

  It seems to me that Izetbegovic had everything to gain from a "Srebrenica massacre" and the Serbs had everything to loose.
  
  Andy Wilcoxson
  Washington, United States

• Saturday May 17, 2003 at 12:13 am
  To everybody,

  Please read and distribute this ICDSM statement regarding Mr. Ramsey Clark's shameful performance on C-SPAN the other night.

  http://www.icdsm.org/more/ramsey1.htm
  
  Andy Wilcoxson
  Washington, United States

• Saturday May 17, 2003 at 5:02 am
  
  Message on creating paragraphs

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  Peter Taylor
  Herts/UK

• Saturday May 17, 2003 at 7:18 am
  

  Ramsey Clark was also asked do you think the state of Israel has the right to exist to which he retorted no doubt about it, but so does Palestine .

  This kind of comment is a no-no in the USA, equally bad for liberals, progressives in fact all across the board.
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Shangri-La

• Saturday May 17, 2003 at 1:05 pm
  To Ramsey
  Israel is is a state, Palistine never was a state. Jordan is 80%+ Palistinians. Maybe disgrunted Palistinians should go to Jordan, their 'motherland'.

  Why create and empower a 'fanatic' state on Israel's border. The same goes for Kosovo and Chechnya.
  
  J P
  USA.Wis

• Saturday May 17, 2003 at 2:53 pm
  How legal is it to subsequently add to the original Indictment, Vera Martinovic rhetorically asks (May 15, 2003 at 9:46 pm). Well, - as a layman in these matters I´d say: What was done in the Milosevic case does not appear to be "legal", - and certainly neither fair nor "expeditious".

  For the same reason I was asking a distinguished Danish lawyer a rather parallel question sometime last spring, - during the initial phase of the "Kosovo part": How could the original ICTY Indictment (against Milosevic et al.) be based on the alleged "massacre" at Racak (15th January 1999), - which was never (properly) investigated (but very crudely presented by mr. Nice)? How does one conduct a "trial" without a (decent) investigation report on the crucial incident, - which was serving as an excuse for the NATO attack (on March 23rd 1999) preceeding any other incidents contained in the Indictment?

  The lawyer answered, to put it briefly, that "one can´t"! Such procedure would certainly not be acceptable in a Danish court of law!

  Now, in my view (which admittedly is still that of a layman!) it did not work at the Hague either: The "Kosovo part" of the ICTY trial against mr. Milosevic is already lost by the Prosecution(making "an inauspicious start with the Kosovo charges" as Gary J. Bass puts it).
  
  Godfred Louis-Jensen
  Copenhagen
  D E N M A R K

• Saturday May 17, 2003 at 4:15 pm
  After "an inauspicious start with the Kosovo charges" (1), "not a scrap of evidence showed Milosevic ordering crimes" (2)...

  ...wouldn´t that be one hell of a status assessment in the socalled trial against mr. Milosevic (considering the general agreement, that "any conviction will have to rest on demonstrating his command responsibility".

  "The prosecutors must prove that he ordered killings, or that he knew about slaughter and chose not to stop it...being not merely the end of the Serb military chain of command, but actively in charge," Gary Bass writes - and on that one particular point the assistant professor from Princeton is quite right.

  Just let me add to this (from remembrance though):

  "NATO demands...that those responsible (for the Racak "massacre") be brought to justice (and) if these steps are not taken, NATO stands ready to take whatever steps necessary including air strikes at targets within FRY territory." (Statement by NATO Secretary General, mr. Javier Solana on January 28th, 1999).

  "Milosevic (personally) is the problem" (there would be several authors to that statement, I believe, - including the Danish Prime Minister at the time of NATOs war on Serbia, mr. Poul Nyrup Rasmussen).

  (1) Gary J. Bass: Milosevic in The Hague. (From Foreign Affairs, May/June 2003).

  http://www.foreignaffairs.org/20030501faessay11221-p10/gary-j-bass/milosevic-in-the-hague.html

  (2) Chris Stephen: Milosevic faces new war crime evidence. (The Observer, May 11, 2003).

  http://www.observer.co.uk/milosevic/story/0,10639,953376,00.html
  
  Godfred Louis-Jensen
  Copenhagen
  D E N M A R K

• Saturday May 17, 2003 at 7:50 pm
  I think that there are two main reasons why the prosecution’s case is disintegrating.

  Number one, they are not providing enough witnesses linking Milosevic to specific crimes. Instead, they have created nebulous constructions regarding some organization, so by pointing out that crimes took place and/or that people were found guilty of crimes (such as Krstic), then they may accuse him of associating with criminal subordinates and thus being a criminal.

  Number two, the charges are largely political. They are attacking the very fact that Serbs in Croatia and Bosnia took part in a war. The charges are not only leveled against crimes perpetrated in the course of war, but there are also references to a “plan.” In other words, they are trying to negate the very rights of the Serbs in defending themselves from Muslim and Croat attacks in Croatia and Bosnia. This is turning out to be a dismal failure, because although many crimes were committed by the Serb side, the Serbs acted only in response to actions of the neonazis in Croatia and the beginning of persecutions in Bosnia (Sarajevo, Sijekovac, etc.). So what can they prove? The only thing they are doing is giving Milosevic forum to read out lists and lists of crimes against Serbs in the beginning of the war, of discrimination and other violence (especially in Croatia), and it is becoming obvious to the public that, generally, Muslims and Croats engaged in provocation and crimes, after which Serbs responded (albeit viciously), and then all three sides engaged in crimes to “purify” desired territories. Absolutely no plan for any so-called “Greater Serbia”.
  
  P. M.
  USA

• Saturday May 17, 2003 at 10:51 pm
  Anna

  The current Serb administration in Serbia DOES NOT WANT to delve too deeply into Srebrenica because their masters do NOT WANT them to. Justy like they don't want them delving too deeply intyo Racak and Markale massacres. It's a little inconvenient as it would destroy the public and propaganda reasons for their actions. So, as Serbs, you are not going to get very far at this stage. Maybe in 50 years but then it will be far too late for anyone to much care. In the meantime the mud will stick, because it's been well paid for by the US taxpayers and those in the rest of the NATO countries, courtesy of their spineless and/or corrupt leaders and agencies such as Rudder Finn, Soros endowments from the CIA drug deals, etc.
  
  David
  Australia

• Saturday May 17, 2003 at 11:19 pm
  PM

  With respect to your aunt, on what basis does she speak for the Serbian people? Does she have information she's especially privy to or has she just bought the wholesale propaganda. I wouldn't imagine that the Serbs are angels, in fact WW2 stories attest to the fact that they are not, but when you draw parallels with other nationalities, please note that there is no record of extermination by the Serbs as there is with the others (at least I'm unaware of any). Perhaps the propaganda has been too successful in trying to equate the different nationalities and the Serb lack of racial extermination in the past needed to be balanced with the record of the others, especially as the Serbs stood in the way of US/NATO? Sure there would be many crimes, Serb people are not immune to having criminals any more than anyone else, but equating that with systematic extermination and so on is a rather large jump.

  Unfortunately, your post shows how well the mud sticks, on the basis of presumption rather than actual fact and evidence which are deliberately clouded by the US/NATO propaganda in order to achieve their goals. They have torn YU to pieces, they've stolen Kosovo... and THEY NEED SOMEONE TO BLAME! Who better than the "uncooperative" and "belligerent" Serbs? I'd need more hard core facts before I bought your line about the YU military acting dishonourably in general and I do acknowledge the fact that SOME elements in the military were animals or criminals on the basis that such elements exist in any army. How did you decide how many were or were NOT prosecuted for crimes?
  
  David
  Australia

• Saturday May 17, 2003 at 11:34 pm
  David

  When I said that "we" brought ourselves to the level of the Croats, Muslims, and Albanians, I did not mean to compare 1991-1999 with WWII. I totally agree, what happened in WWII was one of the few modern genocides (when I speak of genocide, I’m not just saying mass murder, but mass murder with the intent of total extermination of a people, which is what happened to the Serbs in WWII). When I said that we were at the “same level” I meant to say that in the recent war, all four sides had members which perpetrated despicable acts. Regarding WWII, it is well known that all nations in Yugoslavia had some members who perpetrated crimes, even Jews and Romany. Crimes against Serbs were perpetrated by a great number of parties, including Bulgarians, Hungarians, Germans, Albanians, Italians (rarely), Croats, and Muslims. However, I would only characterize the behavior of the Ustase and the associated Kama and Handzar as a true genocide. On the whole, I think that of the Serbs and Albanians in Kosovo, the Albanians were certainly the worse, but the Serb were no angels either.

  Regarding these crimes, I’m not saying Slobo ordered them, just that some of them did occur. The capacity for evil exists in all of us, irrespective of nation and religion (I use the term religion very loosely here). All of us are universally evil. Some of us stop at the point of lying, cheating, cursing, adultery, lust, etc. Others go on to rape, loot, rob, torture, and murder.

  I mentioned my great aunt because she saw and lived through WWII, but that’s just her opinion. I could mention my grandfather, who is still alive, and actually lived through the 1st and 2nd Balkan wars, WWI, WWII, a communist gulag, and the recent 1991-1999 wars.
  
  P. M.
  USA

• Saturday May 17, 2003 at 11:49 pm
  P.M.

  before making any statements regarding the Liberation of Srebrenica, one should carefully read the Krtsic Transcripts.

  It is clear you haven't spent the necessary time to carefully examine the record.
  
  AP V
  NY
  NY

• Saturday May 17, 2003 at 11:53 pm
  Also to David:

  Regarding the mudslinging, I TOTALLY agree with you. Many people have been totally duped. Several summers ago, I visited my mother’s family in central Serbia. Now, we are speaking of the Serbian heartland, the part of the country from which the Karadjordjevic kings originated from, and a region with somewhat nationalistic tendencies (not like Montenegro or Hercegovina though!). I was shocked to see the degree of brainwashing these people had undergone from the DOS regime and associated media structures. The talk of the day were the phantom freezer trucks, which it seems half of Serbia had seen, yet had vanished into thin air. My uncle took my mother and me to the Kragujevac memorial, and there, as we visited the site, he said, bitterly, “Well, the Serbs killed 7000 Muslims in Srebrenica, regardless of what Carla is…” I was shocked and disgusted, and it, in a way, polluted my feelings for that site. A few days later, in a talk with my aunt (not great aunt), she made pouting expressions and statements to the effect of “He sent them to kill Albanian children. Don’t you know that there are hundreds of Albanian children in steel mill furnaces in Smederevo?” I asked her “How do you know this?” And she said “People say so and so….” This sort of nonsense was being stated not in Belgrade by some faux human rights “activists”, but in a small village in central Serbia by a peasant and a peasant’s wife. And the worst thing is, that these are not stupid people. They’re actually very intelligent. Just sadly credulous of Djindjic-Western fabrications.

  But anyways, I agree, much mud has been slung and we are most defeated when we are taken in by the very same forgeries designed by those who killed (and aided others in killing) our people.
  
  P. M.
  USA

• Sunday May 18, 2003 at 1:12 am
  PM

  Thanks for clarifying the point. My problem was that despite all the propaganda, the Serbs were the ones who seem to have been steadily expunged from areas where they lived more so than the Moslems, Croats or Albanians. The figures will readily show anyone that fact. And that was quite a systematic project in Croatia, Bosnia and Kosovo. NATO and "the West" do not seem to have any problems with that at all, so one could readily conclude that ethnic cleansing is fine by them as long as it's the right ethnic group that gets cleansed. As for criminal activity, I have yet to see any reasonably convincing evidence who was behind the more notorious cases of massacres so I am keeping an open mind that it could have been any one of the groups who was more than ready to ascribe it to another. That is what is so disappointing watching the ICTY. There seems little interest in delving into the REAL situation. More so there appears to be a CLEAR interest in getting the right "evidence" in order to get the right "judgements". Racak was a major incident big enough to start a war! Does the ICTY or the Prosecution delve into it in any reasonable detail? You bet it doesn't! It's still full of questions and unexplored and unexplained stories. And the case seems to be finished as far as the Prosecution is concerned! The question is why is it so? And the answer must be that they want it so because it suits.

  The stories you mentioned above are the same sorts of stories I heard about re WW2 crimes which I had studied in quite some detail from a legal point of view... "Tom told Frank who told Peter who told John who told Joe who told me = Everyone knows it!"

  That's what I mean when I say that one should avoid buying fairy stories which then become gospel because they're spread in the finest Goebbels tradition. Unfortunately, I guess some of the Serbs are not immune to such manipulation any more than the rest of us.
  
  David
  Australia

• Sunday May 18, 2003 at 1:20 am
  Gogol Charlemagne wrote: "Ramsey Clark was also asked do you think the state of Israel has the right to exist to which he retorted no doubt about it, but so does Palestine. This kind of comment is a no-no in the USA, equally bad for liberals, progressives in fact all across the board." In fact, that is EXACTLY the stance of Bush's 'road map for peace' - i.e., it is the official position of the US. Perhaps in Shangri La nobody can criticxize Israel, but the atmosphere in academia is intensely anti-Israel, with moves to divest Universities from Israel, violence and threatened violence against anybody who challenges the pro-Palestinian-terrorist forces, and so on. As for "progressives," it is common for them to sound exactly like Buchanan and David Duke when it comes to Israel, even to argue that the US invasion of Iraqw was carried out for Israel, as if Israel had fought an 8 year war in the 1980s with Israel (not Iran). A Palestinian state would be run by the worst terrorists in the world - the PLO, child of the Mufti of Jerusalem, whom Serbs have reason to remember well. It would be the cats paw of Iran, Saudi Arabia and the CIA which, as people may not know, has been training the PA people, who are interchangeable with the terrorists, since '94. It is interesting that according to Democrcy Now, "The [Bush] impeachment drive was largely initiated by former U.S. Attorney General Ramsey Clark and University of Illinois Law Professor Francis Boyle." Boyle is a big supporter of both the Palestinian and Bosnian Muslim terrorists. Here is a letter that Boyle sent Carla del Ponte. The part where he calls for getting Slobodan Milosevic is at the end: "Dear Madame Del Ponte: This is to inform you that the Association of Citizens "Women of Srebrenica" headquartered in Tuzla, Bosnia and Herzegovina have appointed me to serve as their Attorney of Record before the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia and its Office of the Prosecutor with full powers to represent their interests. Attached you will find their Letter of Authorization to me. In addition, the Women of Srebrenica have decided to endorse, ratify, and join in the Criminal Complaint filed by the Presidents of the Mothers of Srebrenica and Podrinja Association with you at your office in The Hague on Friday, February 4, 2000 against several officials of the United Nations Organization, their subordinates, and others for the role they played in the fall and genocidal massacre at Srebrenica in July of 1995. The Women of Srebrenica have also endorsed, ratified, and joined in all subsequent submissions to you that were made by me in this matter. I will be certain to take you up on your kind offer to meet with me again about this Complaint that you made at our last meeting in Sarajevo on October 4, 2000 after I have had the opportunity for further consultation and coordination with my clients the Women of Srebrenica as well as the Mothers of Srebrenica and Podrinja. In the meantime, both the Women of Srebrenica and the Mothers of Srebrenica and Podrinja anxiously, expectantly and hopefully look forward to your indictment of Slobodan Milosevic for the crimes he committed in Bosnia and Herzegovina, including and especially the "genocide" at Srebrenica -- the word that you yourself used at our meeting in Sarajevo on October 4, 2000. Please accept, Madame Del Ponte, the assurance of our highest consideration. Yours very truly, Boyle, etc. --------------- So this is Ramsey's chum. And ye shalt know them by the company they keep. Ramsey supports Slobo and the Serbs like a noose around their neck. Can anyone spell Trojan Horse? John Marat
  
  John Marat
  New York
  USA

• Sunday May 18, 2003 at 1:35 am
  Oops!! I wrote, "as if Israel had fought an 8 year war in the 1980s with Israel (not Iran)." That unintelligible sentence was supposed to read, "as if Israel (not Iran) had fought an 8 year war in the 1980s with Iraq." In other words, despite the fact that both Iran and Iraq have employed violently anti-Israel rhetoric, their real bloodletting was against each another. On balance, Iran and Saudi Arabia were always far graver threats to Israel than Iraq. All the silly arguments that the US attacked Iraq "to help Israel" fall apart when one asks: who gains? The obvious gainers in the destruction of the Baath regime are Iran and Saudi Arabia. So in fact this war was an attack on Israel. And now, Israel must pay for the (highly dubious) favor of the war by allowing a state run by maniacs supported by Iran and Saudi Arabia on her doorstep. And contrary to Gogol, the creation of this state is called for by both Bush and the progressives, such as they are. John Marat
  
  John Marat
  NY
  US

• Sunday May 18, 2003 at 2:47 am
  Whatever happened to the Arabs/Muslims who lived on the present day territory of Israel before the Israelis took over in 1948? Where did they vanish to?
  
  David
  Australia

• Sunday May 18, 2003 at 3:05 am
  

  Hiya JP WIS USA,

  I note that the coalition has done wonders in restoring Afghanistan to its former glory. They've managed to grade about 30km of road in 14 months. Only 240km to go. They've also revitalised the poppy/heroin industry which the Taliban killed off. No doubt so they can send the goods to their KLA buddies in Kosovo for distribution. Someone has to pay for the reconstruction and the pencils for the Afghan kids, right?

  Should do wonders for the US GDP too, now that the oil crisis is over, not to mention a huge boost for more covert operations as in Venezuela, etc.

  BTW, let me know where the WMDs in Iraq are so I can get a picture and post it on the Net. CNN is beginning to run out of material and I'd love to give them a hand. LOL
  
  David
  Australia

• Sunday May 18, 2003 at 3:29 am
  David wrote: "Whatever happened to the Arabs/Muslims who lived on the present day territory of Israel before the Israelis took over in 1948? Where did they vanish to?" I guess that's irony. It is also irrelevant to what I wrote, but OK. As of 2000, 16.72% of Israel's population was Muslims. These included Muslims who had lived in Israel prior to the Arab attack in 1948 and Muslims who fled to Israel to escape persecution in the surrounding tyrannies. Their standard of living measured by things like infant mortality and life expectancy are way better than ordinary people anywhere in the Muslim world, especially the Arab world. Period. These standards are also much better than in, say, 1950. During the 1948 war, the Arab forces, led in large part by the Mufti of Jerusalem's hard core Nazis, told local Arabs to leave to clear the areas so that the proposed "greatest massacre" could take place unimpeded. Some say *some* Arabs fled because of one or more incidents of war crimes by Israelis. That is contested. What is not contested is that the Arabs always slaughtered everyone they captured. (It's also not much talked about...) Yet Jews did not flee, but Arabs all left - mostly at the urging of Arab leaders (I can back that up...) Why did Jews not flee and Arabs did? Because Arabs did not have a national identification with that particular land. The Arab side was NOT fighting for a Palestinian state. They were fighting to exterminate the Jews - this is exactly what the leaders said. Jordan was the Palestinian state. Arabs living in what became Israel were, in most cases, recent immigrants from other Arab areas and ethnically identical to Arabs in Syria or Jordan or wherever. Many came to the Mandate area because the economy improved with the influx of Jews with modern skills. On the other hand, the Jews had fled slaughter - either in Arab lands (most early Israelis were refugees from Arab lands, not from Europe) or from Europe. The clincher is this: after the war, Israel offered to take the Arabs who had fled back. The Arab countries refused because they did not want Israel to exist. They rejected a UN resolution allowing return at that time. They organized the refugees for terrorist attacks. They also refused to give the refugees citizenship so that they would remain a basis for propaganda against Israel. (Isn't all this reminiscent of the Albanian nationalist boycott of the schools and hospitals in Kosovo in the early 90s, which was then portrayed as an attack by the Serbian state?) If Israel took those people back now they would be nuts. These refugees have been brainwashed to think that killing Jews is the best thing in the world. So apparently have many progressives, so-called. Hitler lives. BTW, half of Israel is either refugees from Arab countries or their kids. That's over 2.5 million people. All their property was stolen, they were driven from their homes in *their* countries, many were killed. But you don't see them because Israel absorbed them. They sure don't vote Labor. Wonder why? Maybe they know something about what it is like to live under Muslim rule. Shame on the Left which has adopted so much from fascism - such as support for Bosnian Muslim fundamentalism, hatred of Jews, demonization of Serbs. It wasn't always that way. At the time of the formation of Israel the left was solidly on the Israeli side. (Russia was the main backer of Israel at the UN...)The time is out of joint. Marat
  
  John Marat
  US

• Sunday May 18, 2003 at 5:33 am
  Assuming that the original question of whether mr. Milosevic is "getting a fair trial" or not is still slightly unresolved, and having (somehow!) been going through the cross-examination of mr. Slobodan Lazarevic, as a matter of detail (and in addition to the excellent comments made by Vera Martinovic) I'd like to point out that mr. Milosevic did NOT say (and hence probably did not mean to suggest?) that "a lot of people see Yugoslav affairs his way," - as assistant professor Gary J Bass of Princeton puts it (in Foreign Affairs).

  What mr. Milosevic did say (according to the trial transcripts of 31 October, 2002 pages 12539-40) was rather that "...the only advantage I have is that I'm telling the truth...What I am saying is something that millions of people know a lot about..."

  Hence it seems to me, that a comment like "This is nonsense (as) Milosevic remains consistently and intensely unpopular at home...." is - at best - besides the point; and in my opinion his statement is not at all fairly met by reference to a 'survey by the International Republican Institute (on) Serbian views of Milosevic' - as suggested by this Princeton fellow.

  I do believe, that it is 'getting more and more difficult for everyone involved to simply follow the case', - even without nonsense like that. I am deeply impressed with the guts and spirit of mr. Milosevic!
  
  Godfred Louis-Jensen
  Copenhagen
  D E N M A R K

• Sunday May 18, 2003 at 12:10 pm
  
  Regarding comments above that the powers that be - the Nato war criminal leaders and their lackeys in the media - do not want to delve too deeply into the facts of Srebrnica: It seems that facts about events in Kosovo share a similar fate:

  Nowicki told the families of missing persons that the Ombudsman cannot influence the search directly, but added that it is in his power to pose the question publicly so as to compel the authorities to address the problem properly, the Beta news agency reported.

  
  
  Peter Taylor
  Herts/UK

• Sunday May 18, 2003 at 12:46 pm
  David

  Hi mate, still up?

  Don't worry about 'poppy', there's umpteen sources. In fact the world is awash with tons of it, and seems you think it's all Uncle Sams' fault.

  The Taliban never killed off the 'poppy', they made the big bucks in its' distribution. If they had killed it off, wherefort how did all the fields suddenly reappear? Hmmm!
  Did you know the 'covert operations' , your words, in Venezuela is about stop the growing of 'poppy'? Uncle Sam is doing his best and yet those that do nothing are the biggest critics.

  Only 240 km of road left to build? They should get on with it and start another one, it would keep them off the streets. I know they can do it, when you consider the Appian Way and the Wall of China.
  
  J P
  USA,Wis

• Sunday May 18, 2003 at 12:54 pm
  Yeah Muslum rule is pure evil isnt it? Maybe you should ask the question about the Christian Fundamentalist Right influencing Bush also. Cant trust those fundamentalists in Bosnia? We are fascistic as well. Have any of those people who spend so much time demonising Bosnian muslums been to Bosnia?

  PM as far as we can see the freezer truck case in Serbia was not phantom and nor were the bodies found. The thing that is suspicious about the case is the way it suddenly came at the time of sending Milosevic to the Hague. But difference is that this case will be solved beyond argument in matter of time unlike other cases like Racak. Even Srebrenica will be solved in time but not for the satisfaction of everyone.

  You know it is something like tradition in Balkans to follow what your leaders say. Majority of Bosnians did it Im sorry to admit. It isnt big surprise that DOS view has now become view of people in Serbia. Milosevic view used to be. Problem is even if one is better than other its still means that people in this space did not learn how to think for themselves. As long as it stays like this there is chance that conflict will happen again.
  
  Srdjan Arnautovic
  Sarajevo

• Sunday May 18, 2003 at 2:01 pm
  Please do not feed or annoy the animals...

  Leese, 19, will next month spend three weeks in the Netherlands, attending tribunals... ...as she distinguishes how the dignities of law contrast with the brutalities of crime.

  Teen plans to study at The Hague. By Albert McKeon, Telegraph Staff. May 18, 2003. http://www.nashuatelegraph.com/Main.asp?SectionID=25&SubSectionID=377&ArticleID=80487

  Drawn from latest Milosevic Trial News (Google News)
  
  Godfred Louis-Jensen
  Copenhagen
  D E N M A R K

• Sunday May 18, 2003 at 2:39 pm
  I'd like to point out that mr. Milosevic did NOT say (and hence probably did not mean to suggest?) that "a lot of people see Yugoslav affairs his way," - as assistant professor Gary J Bass of Princeton puts it (in Foreign Affairs).

  I think Milosevic does have public opinion in his pocket of those that are following the trial. As Bass states that
  Only 16 percent of Serbians say they are following the trial "very closely," with an additional 35 percent saying they are following it "somewhat closely."

  That adds up to 51%. A huge number considering less than that number 'voted' last 2 times around .

  And that is what the 'Bass's' are concerned about. They laid low for over a year and are now trying to pull the wool again using the same tricks. He referred over a over to Eichman and Milosevic as comparisons and referred over and over to Milosevic as a tyrant.

  Gary Bass has to be taken for what he is, an apparent paid hack, and possibly (IMO) a NATO consultant since the 'drafting' of the indictment. Either that or he reads a lot of IWRP. Or if you do a Google on ' princeton, government grants, balkans', there's all kinds of money coming in, from all over.
  
  J P
  USA.Wis

• Sunday May 18, 2003 at 7:34 pm
  Srdjan:

  Everyone knows that most Bosnian Muslims used to be very secular. So were the Bosnian Serbs. Only the Croats held more so to their Catholicism. However, Alija Izetbegovic did invite those fundamentalists to come from the ME. The problem is that the new leaders of the Bosnian Muslims were, in a way, not native Bosnians. They were a bizarre mixture of Communists turned Islamic fundamentalists. As you well know, Silajdzic got his degree from the Islamic University of Tehran in Iran, and Ganic is not even from Bosnia (he's a radical from Sandzak). Alija was part of the Young Muslim's fascists, but then he declared himself to be a Serb (his family originates from Belgrade, but they moved to Bosanski Samac in the previous century), then a communist, and finally an Islamic fundamentalist.

  Regarding freezer trucks, I believe its a pure forgery. The reason being that a Mercedes freezer truck is probably far more expensive than a native non-freezer truck. This is important. If this was a truck meant for dumping in the Danube, is there any reason to refrigerate it? Refrigeration makes sense only if you want to preserve the bodies. If you want to perpetrate a crime and destroy the bodies AND the truck as well, you could, for all intents and purposes, use any truck. And then they come up with fabrications of some sort of freezer truck assembly line and that thousands of bodies were being transported back and forth, all over Serbia.

  Second point, why dump it in the Danube? Isn't it much easier to just burn the bodies, bury them in some "primitive" part of Serbia such as southern Serbia or Sandzak, or, if you insist on freezer trucks, dump the bodies in some smaller river. In other words, why would you take the bodies the capital of Serbia and a large European city, and dump them in the largest river in Europe? And with Romanian border guards on the other side watching? What is the point. It makes no sense.

  Also, Racak is a pure forgery, as is Markale, Operation Horseshoe ("Podkova" is a Croatian word, Serbia is podkovica), the "siege of Gorazde", the "siege of Dubrovnik", and Trnopolje. Omarska was a horrible detention camp; Trnopolje was not. And it wasn't a rape camp or a "death" camp either, as some in the media like to claim.
  
  P. M.
  USA

• Sunday May 18, 2003 at 7:42 pm
  

  I heard Torrquemada has been seen in The Hague. He holds a American passport this time. Men, how things change!
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Shangri-La