MILOSEVIC TRIAL DISCUSSION ARCHIVE

Is Slobodan Milosevic getting a fair trial?
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• discussion archive

• Friday November 07, 2003 at 12:21 am
  According to BALKAN newspaper/magazine, Borislav Jovic will be coming to the Hague this month.

  BEGIN QUOTE: Slobodan Milosevic's former sidekick Jovic, and Federal President of Yugoslavia from 1989 to 1991, claims in his memoirs that the plot between Milosevic and army leaders like Kadijevic to dismember Yugoslavia and bring all of the Serb-populated zones of Bosnia and Croatia into a Greater Serbia, had been hatched even before 1990, the year of multi-party elections in Croatia and BiH. He quotes specific conversations with Milosevic and Kadijevic and others to that effect. Students of the conspiracy theory of history will recall that the outlines of the ethnic cleansing programme were allegedly drawn up in a document variously entitled Operation Ram, Rama or Brana, during the nineteen-eighties, e.g. Vladimir Srebrov (interviews 1995,) articles in Delo (Jan.1993) and elsewhere. There is a detailed report on the Jovic memoirs in this week's "Feral Tribune" (Nov. 26), in which columnist Milan Gavrovic wonders why Jovic is choosing the post-Dayton weeks to try and launch his diaries. Gavrovic tells us that the book was withdrawn from sale almost as soon as it hit the book kiosks, but the "Feral" went to press too early to make the connection between Jovic's revelations and his expulsion from Milosevic's ruling party later in the week.

  END QUOTE

  Mr. Jovic stated that he did not want to come and testify, but the prosecution got the Tribunal to order his appearance, so he is not coming willingly.
  
  Dan B
  Canada

• Friday November 07, 2003 at 12:23 am
  The people's delegate of SRS RS Pantelija Damjanovic. Is that you?
  
  Dan B
  Canada

• Friday November 07, 2003 at 9:52 am
  The FreeSerbia.com website (in Serbian) has very important news for President Milosevic.

  FreeSerbia.com states that Carla Del Ponte has asked Belgrade to release documents vital for the prosecution of President Milosevic.

  What is important however is Del Ponte’s admission that the Tribunal will not be able to prove President Milosevic’s guilty of Genocide unless the Belgrade regime supplies this information.

  If FreeSerbia.com correctly quotes Del Ponte, then this is an admission that the Tribunal has so far failed to prove the Genocide charge.

  If the Tribunal is subsequently given this information by the Belgrade regime, and if that leads to a verdict of guilty of Genocide, then President Milosevic’s defences will have been made that much easier.

  He will need only to focus on those documents supplied by Belgrade. The “evidence” presented over the past two years can be ignored (at least as regards the Genocide charge).
  
  Michael Thomas
  London
  UK

• Friday November 07, 2003 at 9:57 am
  

  66 counts are an awfully long number of counts to disregard, one is enough to convict.
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Shangri-La

• Friday November 07, 2003 at 10:33 am
  After much ADO the trial is still conducted by Mr. May who skillfully orders the accused what to say and what not to say. There is not even a semblance of objectivity. Even a kangaroo court would look more legit than this mockery. Who's financing this witch-hunt. Where is the first Albanian accused? Karla has already changed her threats to begging for more documents (from Belgrate) realizing full well that the conviction is unlikely. Whose time and money are we all wasting trying to demonize the Serbs? So what if we succeed demonizing the Serbs? Who benefits? This is by far the biggest mockery of any justice system ever. NO PASARAN
  
  VIVA IRA VIVA ETA
  Mladenovac
  NATO\'s backyard

• Friday November 07, 2003 at 10:38 am
  Just as Stalin (one of Hitler's fiercest opponents) has turned out to be worse than Hitler, so is the NATO (Genocide's fiercest opponent) being the most genocidal instrument on Earth NO PASARAN
  
  VIVA ETA VIVA IRA
  Mladenovac
  NATO backyard

• Friday November 07, 2003 at 3:45 pm
  Andy and Dan
  
  I'm a student, not a politician.
  
  Damjanovic is a very common name, just as jovanovic, milosevic, petrovic etc.
  
  But I must say I'd like to know how do you know about that guy?
  
  pantelija damjanovic
  bosnia and herzegovina

• Friday November 07, 2003 at 9:26 pm
  Pantelija,

  I was just churious what your politics were and so I put your name into google and I got the same thing as Dan B. apparently did.

  I suspected that you weren't a member of the SRS-RS because of your earlier comments about hanging Vojislav Seselj in the main square of the Hague.

  But out of churiosity what do you think of Milosevic? What is your political orientation? What do you think of the case that he is making on behalf of the Bosnian Serbs?

  Is there any way for the people in Republika Srpska to watch the "trial" or listen to it on the radio?
  
  Andy Wilcoxson
  Washington, United States

• Saturday November 08, 2003 at 6:01 am
  Pantelija je peder, Pantelija je peder, Pantelija je peder...
  
  ivko rig
  bottle

• Saturday November 08, 2003 at 12:43 pm
  Ivo, the last thing we need is namecalling. As he stated, he is a students, so those previous comments of yours are out of place with the intent of this board
  
  Dan B
  Canada

• Saturday November 08, 2003 at 12:49 pm
  David Owen may be part of the international conspiracy against Serbs but I think he is much more honest about what happened in Bosnia. I dont recognise why commentators do down his testimony. Mr Owen did immense damage to the prosectuion's case. Is that the actions of an anti Serb or pro NATO position? I dont think so.

  In his opinion Mr Milosevic was not a nationalist and the Serbs were not guilty of genocide. Of the testimony he proved nothing very new about links between the Serbian government and Bosnian Serbs.

  The only blows landed were critcism of Mr Milosevic in preventing / trying those who committed war crimes. In my opinion this is the only part of the indictment where the prosecution has had any success. Relatively speakng though Mr Milosevic did no more and no less than other leaders have in the past concerning this subject so even this success is based upon standards that no army has upheld in the past.

  That is my position anyway
  
  Eric Supple
  Fr

• Saturday November 08, 2003 at 12:56 pm
  Eric, I agree with your statement. I have listened his testimony and I think that Karla is now in the state of shock. That is why she is on offensive charging generals and blaming Serbian government for documents. What do we have to do - falsify documents so she can win the case? They have been in front of Judge May who asked her to give list of documents they need. What they want is unlimited access to Yugoslav archives. I wonder if she has requested same from USA? Also I wonder if the first witness for Slob is going to be Butros Gali.
  
  Dakic Ana
  Serbia

• Saturday November 08, 2003 at 3:55 pm
  In case anyone wonders where Curious gets his MYTH-Reality non sense, you can find it by simple doing a search. I did, and here is the result.

  This whole myth garbage was written by a C. Michael McAdams. C. Michael McAdams is a specialist in Croatian studies and Director of the University of San Francisco's Regional Center in the California state capital of Sacramento. McAdams' book is NOT a serious academic work on Croatia or the conflict in the former Yugoslavia but a pure propaganda piece. At times it crosses the line of what should be allowed to be published when it reduces the Croatian state's genocide in WWII. The only reason why somebody might want to read this book is as an example of the propaganda and lies not to believe. It is NOT a serious work on the region or the country but a part of the propaganda war by the Croatian state and its often extremist sympathisers in the United States and Canada. McAdams' book should only be read by people who want to see the kind of lies and propaganda that were a part of the war in former Yugoslavia.

  It is surprising that anyone would use such a horrible source to poison this board. It is a shocking book based on little academic historical research, but rather manufactured revisionist history. Croatia, which was likely Hitler's greatest Nazi ally and conducted a brutal Holocaust against its Jewish and Serb minorities a mere fifty years ago, is according to McAdam one of the West's greatest allies and victims. McAdam's next "work" will likely be on how Nazi German death camps were actually work and rehabilitation centers for Jews! A shoddy work of little historical substance.

  SHAME!
  
  Dan B
  Canada

• Saturday November 08, 2003 at 4:34 pm
  If you are Churious:

  CROATIAN PRESIDENT FRANJO TUDJMAN: The demographic problem should be solved militarily. "One should proceed with the consideration that a military command could be a most effective means for solving the internal needs of the state. Considering the situation we face with the liberation of occupied territories, the demographic situation, it is necessary for military command precisely to become one of the most efficient components of our state policies in solving the demographic situation of Croatia. We have to consolidate Croatianhood in Istria and populate certain parts. … We didn’t accidentally create the Croatian Republic of Herzeg-Bosna [a Croatian wartime self-proclaimed entity in Bosnia] and the Croatian Defense Council (HVO) [the Croat militia in Bosnia]. "We have, as you see, despite everything, despite all the circumstances, created an admired army. Therefore, we will solve that too." It was with these historical words that Tudjman addressed the members of his military establishment on 23 August 1995, after they gathered that morning in the presidential palace at Pantovcak...
  
  r. t.
  Deutchland

• Saturday November 08, 2003 at 4:43 pm
  Kurious, or whatevery your majesty of anonymity may call yourself,

  Feral Tribune, July 18, 2003 Tudjman on Ethnic Cleansing

  http://www.balkanpeace.org/rs/archive/jul03/rs228.shtml

  TUDJMAN: We have the fortunate situation that the liberation demands a distribution of military units that would simultaneously solve the demographical [aspect]." And this is how Tudjman spoke in August of 1995. This transcript--together with hundreds of others located at The Hague--testifies to the fact that the former Croatian authorities carefully planned, prepared, and carried out the ethnic cleansing of Krajina Serbs.

  Kurious, could you please address the quote of MR. TUDJMAN in your reply, and please, instead of just posting quote after quote, can you not use your own brain to state your opinions? Again, mindless jabber from someone who can only use someone else's quotes and texts to frame their own genocide denying opinions.
  
  Dan B
  Canada

• Saturday November 08, 2003 at 5:06 pm
  Again, instead of quoting C Michael McAdams and his article On Serbian Mythology and KosovA, why don't you state your opinions on the Milosevic trial, as this board is intended for this usage. No matter what you have stated, your own quote, or rather the one from Professor John Ranz says it all "The Serbs did not want to surrender. They fought Nazis courageously. In anger, Hitler ordered - no mercy for the Serbs."

  It is widely known that CROATIA was a Nazi supporter and the Jasenovac camp is proof of that. But I am sure that you will find more mindless quotes on this issue and it is pathetic that you have to clogged up this board with quotes of men such as C Michael McAdams.

  As for the baskets, can't they be moved? As far as I know, they can.
  
  Dan B
  Canada

• Saturday November 08, 2003 at 5:10 pm
  Amen Dan B
  
  Dakic Ana
  Serbia

• Saturday November 08, 2003 at 6:51 pm
  Boris Pribich is an Ustasha masquerading as a Serb, and the so-called SDL is his organization. His wife's name is Elaine S. Pribich.

  If you would like to pay him a visit his home address is:

  1090 N CURRIER AVE
  SIMI VALLEY CA 93065

  If you would like to call him his Phone number is: (805) 522-1363

  If you would like to e-mail him:
  pribich@gte.net

  You can see an ariel surveylance photo of his house by:
  CLICKING HERE

  From my information he was personal friends with Andrija Artukovic.
  
  Kontraobavesajna Sluzba
  Beograd
  Srbija

• Sunday November 09, 2003 at 10:17 am
  The NATO aggressors or their camp followers, such as the ICTY, will not be allowed to write the history of the Serbian or other Yugoslav people!

  While two impressive RALLIES were held in the centre of The Hague and in front of the Scheveningen prison on Saturday, November 8, 2003 calling for the release of President Milosevic and for the abolition of the ICTY

  it seems that the JURIST "Trial Discussion" was merely taking the day off?

  Bypassing a series of postings which strike me as peculiar rather than "just curious" (e.g. Saturday November 08, 2003 at 12:04 pm) I notice the following statement attributable I believe to Mr. Srdja Trifkovic :

  "That Milosevic deserves to languish in jail there can be but little doubt" (Thursday November 06, 2003 at 8:24 pm).

  There is no sense at all in this "statement"! Maybe mr. Trifkovic (or D. Jovanovic, who brought it up?) would kindly clarify?

  In the meantime you are kindly referred to the website of the rally organisers, the SLOBODA/Freedom Association at:

  http://www.sloboda.org.yu/
  
  Godfred Louis-Jensen
  Copenhagen
  D E N M A R K

• Sunday November 09, 2003 at 3:47 pm
  Mr. Louis-Jensen,

  I merely posted a quote from Trifkovic as a point of information.

  Mr. Trifkovic was in Karadzic's government at the time of the negotiations of Vance Owen plan. Obviously these are his observations and not mine.

  In fact I expected much worse testimony by Lord Owen than it turned out to be. He indeed helped Milosevic rather than damaging him.

  I do not share Trifkovic opinion inthis matters.
  
  D. Jovanovic, physicist
  USA

• Monday November 10, 2003 at 7:42 pm
  The event in the Hague drew appx. 150-200 people according to the media.
  
  Dan B
  Canada

• Monday November 10, 2003 at 9:34 pm
  d
  
  d d
  d

• Monday November 10, 2003 at 11:22 pm
  Re: Boris Prebich He has a website that anyone can visit and draw their own conclusions. I would hope that the person who posted the information re this man would not be so ignorant as to think any Serbs would do harm to Mr. Prebich because of their allegations.
  
  Kathryn Love
  SJC
  CA

• Monday November 10, 2003 at 11:28 pm
  

  Seems the uS Supreme Court is starting to look at what the US Givt has been doing in Guantanamo. When they're finished with that they can extend their inquiry into the other things it's been doing around the world too.
  
  David
  Oztralia

• Tuesday November 11, 2003 at 12:38 am
  "FOR FREEDOM, TRUTH AND JUSTICE!" Where did you get it? It is the most hypocritical statement. Did you write it for imbeciles? Did Roman Catholic or any other judeo-christian cult or judeo-bolsheviks ever considered such nonsense? So, those tiny judeo-bolsheviks arrested in Hague, terorized and murdered Serbs for last 62 years or more exactly, from 1941. Wherever and whenever any of them ruled tis words were farce. Now World Judeo-Bolsheviks of Hague are "punishing" local judeo-bolsheviks of Balkan. Why they do not punish the other criminals? Because this is the most efficient way towards destruction of Europe and the opening Asiatic avalanche to finish with self destructive degenerated white race! So sorry!
  
  Piros Cardas
  Chicago
  IL/USA

• Tuesday November 11, 2003 at 1:02 am
  Ana, you are still here, despite your promise?
  
  r. t;
  Deutchland

• Tuesday November 11, 2003 at 1:04 am
  Kathryn Love, Greatm after so many months!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!?????
  
  ??????????? !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  Anything

• Tuesday November 11, 2003 at 4:40 am
  Test
  
  Tester Pester
  GB

• Tuesday November 11, 2003 at 6:24 am
  "I am not going to visit this subject again an also I can take this personally like MP and stop visiting this site like many other did..." I stand by my statement, I am not visiting previous subject again and I said that I can (not would) take it personally. I am here to stay an if you RT have nothing better to contribute than to take your fight with me be my guest. I have not yet stepped back from the good fight. I would however preferred to hear your opinion on subject: Does Milosevic have a fair trail.
  
  Dakic Ana
  Serbia

• Tuesday November 11, 2003 at 6:42 am
  Ana, do you speak for yourself or others?
  
  r. t.
  Deutchland

• Tuesday November 11, 2003 at 7:10 am
  
  ‘Prime Suspect’: Its only a play I hear you say

  Writing about Blair and Bush’s refusal to consider the initially hidden and now recently revealed diplomatic solutions offered by the Taliban in Afghanistan and Saddam Hussein in Iraq George Monbiot, writing in The Guardian, 11 November 2003, has this to say:

  None of this matters to the enthusiasts for war. That these conflicts were unjust and illegal, that they killed or maimed tens of thousands of civilians, is irrelevant, as long as their aims were met. So the hawks should ponder this. Had a peaceful resolution of these disputes been attempted, Bin Laden might now be in custody, Iraq might be a pliant and largely peaceful nation finding its own way to democracy, and the prevailing sentiment within the Muslim world might be sympathy for the United States, rather than anger and resentment.

  He might have added Kosovo: Had Milosevic’s offer of a peaceful resolution of this dispute been attempted, Thaci, Ceku and Haradinaj might now be in custody and all the consequent acts of terror, murders and ethnic cleansing avoided, Serbia might be a pliant and largely peaceful nation finding its own way to democracy, and prevailing sentiment within the Orthodox Christian world might be sympathy for the United States and Britain rather than anger and resentment.

  Britain’s TV continues to cement the lie by pouring out anti-Slav bile by the gallon. During the past two evenings ITV in ‘Prime Suspect VI’ portrayed Serbs, uniquely, as rapists, torturers and murderers of the ‘poor’ Muslim people of Bosnia with special reference to the similarity with Nazi massacres and concentration camps.

  Clearly Blair, Clinton and Bush had secret agendas in all these wars. It is not “Sweet and Proper to die for one’s country” in war especially when wars are based on lies:

  Dulce et Decorum est

  Bent double, like old beggars under sacks,
  Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge,
  Till on the haunting flares we turned out backs,
  And towards our distant rest began to trudge.
  Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots,
  But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame, all blind;
  Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots
  Of gas-shells dropping softly behind.

  Gas! GAS! Quick, boys!--An ecstasy of fumbling
  Fitting the clumsy helmets just in time,
  But someone still was yelling out and stumbling
  And flound'ring like a man in fire or lime.--
  Dim through the misty panes and thick green light,
  As under a green sea, I saw him drowning.

  In all my dreams before my helpless sight
  He plunges at me, guttering, choking, drowning.

  If in some smothering dreams, you too could pace
  Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
  And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
  His hanging face, like a devil's sick of sin,
  If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
  Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs
  Bitter as the cud
  Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,--
  My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
  To children ardent for some desperate glory,
  The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est
  Pro patria mori.

  By Wilfred Owen. British soldier killed in action 1918.
  
  Peter Taylor
  Herts/UK

• Tuesday November 11, 2003 at 7:29 am
  What is your problem RT? Why don't YOU go back into anonymity you came from, since you are a coward to state your own name when picking up debate. What are YOU hiding? And again state your opinion: Does Milosevic have a fair trial?
  
  Dakic Ana
  Serbia

• Tuesday November 11, 2003 at 7:31 am
  

  At the Eleventh HourThe Eleventh Day of the Eleventh Month

  Nov. 11, 1918 Vane sacrifice in the name if GREED all these capitalist, imperialist wars!
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Shangri-La

• Tuesday November 11, 2003 at 10:44 am
  I read that the Serbian Government of Republica Srpska has issued an “amended “ statement regarding Srebrenica. I am aware that Srebrenica “massacre” has nothing to do with Milosevic trial. However I am curious does anybody knows if this is new information?
  
  D. Jovanovic, physicist
  USA

• Tuesday November 11, 2003 at 10:53 am
  Ana:

  "What is your problem RT? Why don't YOU go back into anonymity you came from, since you are a coward to state your own name when picking up debate. What are YOU hiding? And again state your opinion: Does Milosevic have a fair trial?" - No
  
  r. t.
  Deutchland

• Tuesday November 11, 2003 at 11:23 am
  D Jovanovic, physicist

  The RS government produced a Report about the events surrounding the fall of Srebrenica some time ago.

  The NATO Powers were not happy with the original Report since it apparently differed entirely from their version of events.

  Paddy Ashdown apparently "threatened" the RS government and demanded that they re-write their history to bring it in line with NATO Truth.

  This week ATV (a NATO sponsored TV station in Banja Luka) reported that it had seen the a new version of the original RS Report and announced that the RS government has “admitted” that Serbs committed a massacre in Srebrenica.

  ATV, however, may have jumped the gun. The new RS Report apparently states that some prisoners were executed, but it gives no numbers. And also that some graves were moved.

  No one in the Republika Srpska denies that some executions took place, perhaps a few dozen prisoners were shot by grieving Serbs in revenge for the terror Nasser Oric and his henchmen brought to neighbouring Serbian villages.

  As to the moving of graves, this was explained to me by a serving Bosnian Serbian soldier. He said that soon after a battle they would bury the dead where they fell, this was done for reasons of hygiene. However, later they would return to move the bodies to proper burial grounds.

  If the government of Republika Srpska had really accepted NATO Truth, then why didn’t Paddy Ashdown simply publish their Report instead of trying to spin its conclusions.
  
  Michael Thomas
  London
  UK

• Tuesday November 11, 2003 at 2:00 pm
  To show how desperate the Hague supporters are, I would suggest readings this article. It was written by our friend Judith Armatta.

  (http://www.cij.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=viewReport&reportID=454&tribunalID=1&languageID=1_

  "While casual trial observers have been heard to criticize Judge May for being too harsh on Milosevic and interrupting his cross examination, in fact, Judge May has allowed him extraordinary leeway."

  AS FAR AS I REMEMBER, most here are NOT CASUAL observers as Madame Armatta wants us to believe. If you would like to share your opinion with her, her email is Jarmatta@cij.org
  
  Dan B
  Canada

• Tuesday November 11, 2003 at 2:32 pm
  Michael Thomas - well yeah they do. That is some people in Republika Srpska deny that executions took place.

  Should you not wait for the report to be published until you judge it?
  
  Ern Vincent
  USA

• Tuesday November 11, 2003 at 2:51 pm
  World Socialist Web Site:

  The Milosevic Trial: Last prime minister of Yugoslavia breaks 12-year silence

  By Paul Mitchell

  11 November 2003

  The last prime minister of Yugoslavia has broken his 12-year long silence to speak in public about events during the breakup of his country in the 1990s.

  Ante Markovic was prime minister of the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (SFRY) between March 1989 and December 1991. He recently appeared as a prosecution witness in the trial of former Serbian President Slobodan Milosevic at the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia (ICTY) at The Hague. For the last two years, Milosevic has been on trial on charges of war crimes and genocide in Kosovo, Bosnia and Croatia.

  Markovic was the latest in a line of former Yugoslav leaders to appear at the ICTY, all of whom have denied any responsibility for the civil wars that erupted as the former Yugoslavia disintegrated. They all blame Milosevic entirely. Of all those who have appeared at The Hague so far to absolve themselves, Markovic could be truly said to have laid the seeds for the break up of Yugoslavia.

  CONTINUED: http://www.wsws.org/articles/2003/nov2003/milo-n11.shtml
  
  Dan B
  Canada

• Tuesday November 11, 2003 at 5:03 pm
  Today at Den Haag:

  http://www.slobodan-milosevic.org/news/smorg111103.htm
  
  Andy Wilcoxson
  Washington, United States

• Tuesday November 11, 2003 at 11:41 pm
  George Soros comes again!

  NEW YORK -- George Soros, one of the world's richest men, has given away nearly $5 billion to promote democracy in the former Soviet bloc, Africa and Asia. Now he has a new project: defeating President Bush.

  
  
  Dan B
  Canada