 MILOSEVIC TRIAL DISCUSSION ARCHIVE |
| JURIST >> LEGAL NEWS - WORLD LAW >> Discussion >> Milosevic Trial Discussion Archive |
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Former Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic is on trial for war crimes in the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia at The Hague. This marks the first time a head of state has been personally prosecuted before an international criminal court.
Is Slobodan Milosevic getting a fair trial?
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- discussion archive
- Monday November 17, 2003 at 12:14 am
Radovan said that UNPROFOR saved Serbs since they did not allow them to enter Srebrenica sa there would be blood to the knees.(in 1993) Since he assumed at that time that there might be a massive retaliatiaon from the Serbian side for crimes committed by Naser Oric and 28 Bosnian Brigade from Srebrenica.Radovan, nor Milosevic never use a war threat, like Tudjman, Mesic, and Alija did.
Ustashe and Balije please have enough pride to tell honestly what we all know in Yougoslavia; that you never appriciated that state and that you assume Yugoslavia only as a step in your fighting for your complete independence.
I beg you to admit and tell publicly hou many victims did you have build in Yugoslavian state?, and how much you were prepared to sacrifice for Yugoslavia.
How many people you send on Kajmakcalan? Do you know at all where is it, do you know and do you care at all?
Do you know at all what it meant for Yugoslavia? We as Serbs were brokendown by NATO and NWO, in last war and NATO used you. Where do you see pride for yourself in it?
Pero Peric
Canada - Monday November 17, 2003 at 1:22 am
George Szamuely I've admired your work in the NY free press but haven't seen anything by you in that paper in awhile. still writing? if you need any troops for the us section of ICDSM, i'm in nyc
josef crow
new york
ny - Monday November 17, 2003 at 2:20 am
One can never be too careful about one's choice of brothers.
You can choose your family but you can't choose your enemies. They choose you!
Then again, with brothers like that who needs enemies anyway?
David
Oztralia - Monday November 17, 2003 at 6:53 am
‘Justice is what I say it is’: Humpty Dumpty, Carla del Ponte …Danijel Milosevic, 18, was shot dead at noon (yesterday) by unknown gunmen, while ploughing with a tractor in the village of Mogila of Kosovska Vitina district, in southeast Kosovo.
Local Serbs considered the incident had links to the Sunday's Serbian presidential election which was also held in the province. They said, one day before the last year's presidential election, some unknown men also threw bombs at a Serb's house in the center of the district.
Kosovo Serbs condemned the shooting, accusing the UN Administration in Kosovo and the NATO-led multinational peacekeeping force of failing to protect Kosovo Serbs.
Blair and his acolytes’, principally those in the media especially the BBC frequently prompted by Albright and Rubin, still glory in the marvellous “freedom” their “heroic humanitarian attack on Serbia” has brought the people of Kosovo. The realities they do not dare disclose are the ongoing racist murders as above. These are never solved by the police force Blair installed: comprising his chums in the KLA who probably committed most of them. Their ongoing terrorism, accounting for thousands of murders since Nato took control, maintains the ethnic cleansing of this region lauded for its return to “humanitarian” control under Nato.
Do you recall all those Anglo/US media screams of simulated outrage created over the aptly named German hyped propaganda: ‘Operation Horseshit’ in Kosovo? Well here are two actual counter insurgency operations to chew over:
Operation Iron Hammer and Operation Ivy Cyclone currently engaged in Iraq: satellite guided missiles, 2000 pound bombs, C130 Spectre gunships, strike helicopters, tanks, heavy mortars and the obligatory M16 machine gun. Doors of dwellings kicked in and the dwellings damaged or destroyed, women and children insulted and terrified, men physically abused, beaten and carted off to indefinite imprisonment without charges or legal representation. Many innocent civilians being shot on sight on suspicion - no questions asked.
In Kosovo and Iraq security forces - one set legitimate and one not - were/are fighting al-Qaeda aided terror armed with limited weapons.
In Kosovo the legitimate forces were accused of using disproportionate force where their major weapon was the obsolete TUXX tank: in combating acts of terror which murdered some 300 of their policemen and hundreds of Kosovo’s civilians. For this Serbia was bombed for 78 days by the most formidable array of weapons known to man: Disproportionate Force?
Perhaps one day Carla del Ponte, this ICTY paragon of modern justice, will treat us all to a lecture on:
“Justice: Disproportionate Force as used against al-Qaeda aided terror and the supporting population”
Giving examples of why it was so unjust in Kosovo as to warrant the destruction of Serbia but so heroic and noble in Iraq that Anthony Blair - al-Qaeda supporter in Kosovo - is to receive the Congressional Medal of Honor?
Peter Taylor
Herts/UK- Monday November 17, 2003 at 6:56 am
HTML Correction
Hopefully - Monday November 17, 2003 at 6:56 am
- Monday November 17, 2003 at 7:40 am
The Evolution of the Rape Story-A ChronologyThe North American News Analysis Group has traced the paper trail on this specific issue to separate fact from fiction, and sensationalism and propaganda from reality. The chronology of the development of the story follows and shows how sensationalized reports generated by the Governments of Croatia and Bosnia & Hercegovina were picked up by the international community at face value, and acted upon. After more careful examination these allegations were later disqualified and modified to reflect more realistically the rape issue in the Balkan conflict. It is acknowledged, at least in the international organizations that are informed, that rape, systematic or not is being perpetrated by all sides on victims on all sides, Serb, Muslim and Croat.
1992
April, War Breaks out in Bosnia & Hercegovina
April - November, No Reports of Systematic Rape of Muslim Women Thorough research of press reports and international documentation during this period shows complete absence of reports of "systematic rapes" or otherwise greater than average wartime rape numbers. Refugees had been streaming into Croatia and other countries and had been interviewed for months with no indication of such allegations.
November, News Blitz of Muslim Rape Victims Sudden reports by major press sources of massive numbers of rapes of Muslim women, without mention of rapes of Serbian women, provided by such partial sources as government sources of Croatia and Bosnia & Hercegovina. Numbers of Muslim rape victims issued by these same sources bounce all over the board, 60,000 to 10,000 casting full doubt on the validity of numbers or reliability of sources. Press and TV stories of 3-month old babies flooding hospitals inundate the media; the war started in earnest in May, 6 months earlier suggesting the rape victims were giving birth at 3 months of pregnancy -- a veritable epidemic of premature births.
December, Edinburgh Summit Declaration (Appendix 12) Based solely on the sensational news reports (and not a single substantiated report) heads of state attending the European Summit in Edinburgh passed a declaration condemning the allegations and authorizing a delegation to investigate requiring that "this delegation must be allowed free and secure access to the places of detention in question" and calling upon the UN to adopt measures to support this mission.
December 14, EC Representatives' Letter to the UN The Permanent Representatives of Belgium, France and the United Kingdom submit a letter including a "Declaration on the treatment of Muslim women in former Yugoslavia" (UN Document S/24960) where in the first paragraph they "condemn these acts of unspeakable brutality, which form part of a deliberate strategy to terrorize the Muslim community in B & H...". Paragraph 4 requests the UN to adopt measures to support this mission. No report on the issue accompanies this declaration as none has yet been completed.
December 18, UN Report on the Rapes of Serbian Women A UN report s/24991 dated December 18, 1992 is available documenting testimonies of Serbian rape victims at the hands of Muslim and Croatian soldiers including brothels of Serbian girls held by Muslim soldiers in Sarajevo. This report is not released until January 5, 1993. It is the only international agency report documenting testimonies of any rape victims available to the UN at that time.
December, UN Resolution 798 and Condemnation Based solely on paragraph 4 of the EC Declaration above (UN Document S/24960, dated December 14, 1992) the UN passed a resolution condemning "these acts of unspeakable brutality.." "of reports of the massive, organized and systematic detention and rape of women, in particular Muslim women, in B&H" and supports the EC delegation. There are still no reports or substantiated evidence of thousands of Muslim women raped nor that it is systematic. The Resolution made no mention of the rapes of Serbian women. (Attachment V)
December, UN Press Release Condemns Rapes of Muslim Women The UN issued a press release on the above resolution, no mention of the only UN report of actual testimonies of rape victims (Serbian women).
1993 December 18-24, EC Delegation Investigation -- Phase I The EC delegation headed by Dame Anne Warburton including Madame Simone Veil (France) and other experts visited Zagreb where they had no direct contact with the victims "because of the lack of interpreters" and where they were not permitted to visit any centers but received instead information from the Croatian Government, and Geneva where they visited some international organizations. In their report the delegation qualified its findings by stating that "The Delegation was also aware, in examining the issue of rape against muslim women, that rape and sexual abuse are neither nationality - nor gender - restricted issues... there are also disturbing reports of rape of Croat and Serbian women..." Furthermore, "in its .. discussions with .. international organizations in Geneva, the Delegation noted "the contrast between the extensive media coverage of the alleged rapes and the lack of supporting documentary evidence in the possession of the organizations concerned".
It further stated, with a major qualifier, that "while a precise figure for the number of victims involved cannot be given... the most reasoned estimate suggested to the Delegation indicated a figure in the region of 20,000 victims." There is no substantiation of this number, nor reference to its source. It is safe to say that the source was not an international organization as they have all stated publicly that it is impossible to make a valid estimate.
January 19-26, EC Delegation Investigation -- Phase II This time the Delegation went to Zagreb and Bosnia-Hercegovina where they met with the leaders of the Catholic and Muslim communities, field staff of the international agencies and representatives of both Croatian and Bosnian governmental and non-governmental organizations. They also conducted "a small number of in-depth interviews with individual victims." The combined findings were compiled in a report. Not the first nor the second delegation ever examined the issue of the rapes committed by Croatian and Muslim soldiers, nor did the Government sources of those two states volunteer such information. Nor did the delegation ever bother to assess the kind of or the validity of the methodology used by any of the sources to project these numbers of Muslim women raped.
1994
January, UN Commission on Human Rights Inquiry (Appendix 10-17) Under the leadership of the Special Rapporteur, Tadeusz Mazowiecki, and pursuant to Commission on Human Rights resolution 1992/S-1/1 and 1992/S/2-1 a second commission of inquiry went to Croatia, Bosnia & Hercegovina and Serbia to investigate the rape reports under the larger umbrella of a general human rights investigation. For that investigation an international team of medical experts was assembled who met with physicians and examined medical records, making this the first attempt by an impartial body to seek actual evidence. Their report was submitted as Annex II of the larger Mazowiecki report, E/CN.4/1993/50 February 10, 1993. Among their conclusions the victims are "said to be mainly Muslim but also Serb and Croat women." ... "Attempts made to locate specific places where women were allegedly detained and raped have proved unsucessful to date. Information provided was often too imprecise. In several cases alleged rape camps were found to be empty when visited by ICRC delegates".
The study based its findings on actual documented evidence of rapes, assumed conservative formulas of what percentage the documented cases represented of the actual cases and concluded that, based on their evidence, approximately 2,400 women, Muslim, Serb and Croat had been raped. This also is an estimate but the only estimate based on any evidence instead of hearsay. Interestingly enough, it is a far cry from the originial claims by the Governments of Croatia and Bosnia & Hercegovina of 60,000 Muslim women raped. Curiously enough, the Director of the Yugoslav Desk at the Foreign Broadcast Information Service, Washington, D.C. observed that there was a virtual absence of any reporting of the rapes of Muslim women in the government controlled Croatian press.
February, EC Declaration on the Warburton Mission (Appendix 1) The Declaration acknowldges receipt of the report, and determines that "at a political level, the Community and its member States will approach the parties to the conflict" (assumes all parties) "to impress on them the icontrovertible nature of the evidence and the imperative need to bring these abhorrent practices to an end." (Attachment X)
February 17-18, EC Committee on Women's Rights Hearings The hearings were held in Brussels to be based on the findings of the Warburton EC delegation. Instead, following the reports of both the EC delegation and the subsequent UN Commission on Human Rights Report the hearings resulted in the rejection of a number of the EC Delegation Reports' allegations and in the elimination of the 20,000 number for Muslim rape victims because it was deemed that "this European Community delegation to investigate the rapes of women in former Yugoslavia was neither given a broad enough remit nor sufficient resources and support to carry out its task effectively." The other critical objections as cited in the EC Report (Attachment XI) and notes on the hearings dated February 23, 1993, "Cahiers Schriftenreihe Specials," Nr #11 follow:.
Simone Veil, a high ranking French politician (and a leading critic of Serbs) and a delegate member, objected to the EC Delegation Reports because the delegation had no direct contact with the victims. The report it drew was therefore only based on indirect testimony as reported by Croatian and Muslim government sources, etc., hardly impartial; By its own admission in the Phase II Report, the mandate of the delegation was limited to Muslim women ignoring that other women were also victimized by rape at the hands of Croatian and Muslim soldiers; Ann Howarth of the UN High Commission for Refugees concluded that "there was lack of independent evidence about rapes"; Thierry Germond of the International Red Cross presented the conclusion "that atrocities, including rape, were being committed on all sides"; Helena Harbraken for Amnesty International stated that "based on substantiated information, abuses against women, including rape, have been widespread... and that all sides have committed the abuses"; Fritz Kalshoven, Chairman of the UN Committee on War Crimes said that while "evidence brought forward up till now may be sufficient for political bodies like the European Parliament to make political statements and activate public opinion.. it would not stand up as sound proof in Court". He also stated that "it is difficult to prove that the rapists of Bosnian women are regular Serb soldiers taking orders from their superiors." Moreover, Dame Warburton head of the EC Delegation was conspicuously absent from the hearings. Additionally, the Serbian women who had been invited by the Commission to testify were denied visas by the Belgian Government to attend the hearings. After much criticism by the other participants the Belgian Government granted visas to only two of the invitees from Serbia to the hearings. Instead of the intended resolution citing only Muslim rape victims at the hands of Serbian soldiers, the Committee on Women's Rights drafted a resolution citing rape as a violation against all the women, Serb, Croat and Muslim at the hands of soldiers of each of the three warring groups, Serb, Croat and Muslim.
March 10, EC Votes for Resolution on Rapes The European Parliament adopts the recommended resolution on rapes, which does not single out the Serbian soldiers as the sole perpetrators of rapes, nor Muslim women as the sole victims of the same crime.
January 29, Boutros Ghali Reports on Rapes The Secretary General of the United Nations, Mr. Boutros Boutros Ghali issued a report on the findings of the Commission of Experts investigating war crimes in the former Yugoslavia, A/48/858 (Attachment XIII). In this report he cites that in the summer of 1993 the "Commission of Experts sent a mission to Sarajevo ... to conduct several pilot studies, including one on rape, and to receive the documentation on rape cases that the War Crimes Commission of Bosnia and Herzegovina had promised in April". In previous announcements the Bosnian Government had claimed that they had in their possession files on 15,000 cases of rapes of Muslim women by Serb men. However, the UN report continues, "During the mission, the Commission of Experts obtained from the War Crimes Commission all their information identified as relating to this issue (listing 126 victims, 113 incidents, 252 alleged perpetrators, 73 witnesses and 100 documents)." Thus ALL of the Bosnian Government information included only 126 cases of rape. This is a far cry from the 15,000 to 60,000 claimed by the same Government. To this date there has been NO EVIDENCE or reliable information accepted as legitimate by any international body that substantiates either that rapes of Muslim women by Serb men were the only cases of rape, that they were systematic nor that they were in the tens of thousands as the international political and media communities have so irresponsibly perpetrated.
This report is available in its entirety which includes complete copies of all the international reports cited above. If interested in receiving the report with all the attachments please send your inquiry to: North American News Analysis Group San Francisco, California Phone: (415) 673-6279 Fax: (415) 673-1630
Dakic Ana
Serbia - Monday November 17, 2003 at 7:43 am
However, the UN report continues, "During the mission, the Commission of Experts obtained from the War Crimes Commission all their information identified as relating to this issue (listing 126 victims, 113 incidents, 252 alleged perpetrators, 73 witnesses and 100 documents)." Thus ALL of the Bosnian Government information included only 126 cases of rape. This is a far cry from the 15,000 to 60,000 claimed by the same Government. To this date there has been NO EVIDENCE or reliable information accepted as legitimate by any international body that substantiates either that rapes of Muslim women by Serb men were the only cases of rape, that they were systematic nor that they were in the tens of thousands as the international political and media communities have so irresponsibly perpetrated.So there is no limit to your stupidity Just GO and JUMP of the CLIFF.
Dakic Ana
Serbia - Monday November 17, 2003 at 8:00 am
"Lipa nasa domovina" And it was given for free to nazi Germany and fascist Italy . Honor to the real heroes who fought for their Domovina and eternal shame for the traitors to their race .
M P
Gatun Locks
Chagres - Monday November 17, 2003 at 8:22 am
Turnout of 38.59 percent - Nikolic leads09:15 BELGRADE , Nov 17 (Tanjug) - According to the processed data from 5,424 polling stations, or 63.21 percent of the total number of polling stations in Serbia, Kosovo and Metohija not included, 2,426,626 voters or 38.59 percent went to the polls at the presidential elections in Serbia on Sunday, the Republican Elections Commission (RIK) Director Zoran Jancic announced on Sunday night.
Candidate of the Serbian Radical Party Tomislav Nikolic won the majority votes - 661,109 or 46.37 percent, Jancic told a news conference at the Serbian Parliament presenting the latest figures.
(end)Elections failed - only 38.3 percent of voters went to polls
21:27 BELGRADE , Nov 16 (Tanjug) - The required one half of voters did not vote at the Sunday Serbian presidential elections, so that the elections could succeed, since the turnout was 38.3 perecent, the Centre for Free Elections and Democracy (CeSID) said late on Sunday.
CeSID announced the first results according to the data acquired on the sample of 304 polling stations from all parts of Serbia, according to which 46.5 voters voted for Serbian Radical Party candidate Tomislav Nikolic, 35 percent for Dragoljub Micunovic (DOS), and 9.5 percent for Velimir Ilic (New Serbia).
(end)It looks like DOS is finished, the Serbian Radical Party (SRS) candidate got more votes than Micunovic and Ilic put together.
The parliamentary elections will finish DOS once and for all. I'm watching Deutsche Welle right now and democracy in Serbia seems to be a distressing prospect for the German state broadcaster.
Hopefully, the SPS and SRS will be smart enough to properly coordinate their activities in the parliamentary elections so as not to unnecessarily split the patriotic bloc's votes against DOS.
Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States - Monday November 17, 2003 at 8:35 am
Ana Dakic: I have heard that Seselj's pathological hatred of Croats and/or Muslims is derived from his being raped while in prison by Muslims/Croats, which led to the end of his first marriage and the traumatization of his son. Have you heard of this allegation in the news, and do you think there is any truth to it?
P M
USA - Monday November 17, 2003 at 10:42 am
I do belive that rapes happened and yesy everybody has its own idiots. Problem is actualy separating what actualy happened or not. Seselj can bark all day long just like KKK (free speech) but at the end it comes to who did what and under whose order. My God you should know a case of the serial kill truck driver that killed at least 50 women - he can remebmer all. Or sniper people in Maryland. Just imagine how hard it is to control or find such people in war.
Dakic Ana
Serbia - Monday November 17, 2003 at 10:50 am
P M USA - To be honest I have never took an interest I Seselj so I can not tell you if that is truth or not.
Dakic Ana
Serbia - Monday November 17, 2003 at 11:27 am
Meira said she assumed he was ordered to rape her. He did not apologize "but said that he had to do it. He said it was better for me that he did it than the followers of Seselj, who rape 10 men to one women."
Seselj Can
Bark - Monday November 17, 2003 at 11:50 am
Does anyone know when Borisav Jovic will testify? According to B92, he arrived at The Hague last week. Thank you.
Matthias Gockel
Germany - Monday November 17, 2003 at 12:00 pm
"Meira said she assumed he was ordered to rape her. He did not apologize "but said that he had to do it. He said it was better for me that he did it than the followers of Seselj, who rape 10 men to one women..." SO 10000 * lets say 5 men per women = 50000 people raping? When did thay have time to fight a war?
Dakic Ana
Serbia - Monday November 17, 2003 at 1:09 pm
Does anyone know when Borisav Jovic will testify? According to B92, he arrived at The Hague last week.
Matthias Gockel
Germany - Monday November 17, 2003 at 2:02 pm
He is testifying today. I think it already started.
Dakic Ana
Serbia - Monday November 17, 2003 at 2:24 pm
Dakic: do not be frustrated by these idiots. In one post, they post a credible source on Foca Partizan sports complex (the other 'rape camp' was at Buk Bijela, btw) which claims that 74 people were held at Partizan, and that most were women and most were raped. That is an entirely possible incident. However, later this same fool posts about "the thousands of women held in the Bosnian rape camp of Foca" - heavy contradictions. So, what is it, 74 or 'thousands'? These liars are disgusting.
P M
USA - Monday November 17, 2003 at 2:43 pm
Thank you M P
Dakic Ana
Serbia - Monday November 17, 2003 at 2:43 pm
The UK Kosovo Triumvirate: Blair, Cook and RobertsonThese guys just can’t help propagandising the world of make-believe they foist on the gullible masses. Blair on preparing Britain’s warm welcome for his new best buddy Bush:
"This is the right moment for us to stand firm with the United States of America in defeating terrorism wherever it is and delivering us safely from what I believe to be the security threat of the 21st century."
Blair five years ago with his new best buddy Clinton was supporting KLA terror in Kosovo: a terror group which included units of Mujahedin and was also backed by bin Laden’s al-Qaeda.
In case like me you are struggling to comprehend let me ask are the words “defeating terrorism wherever it is” and ‘supporting terrorism in Kosovo’ compatible statements and actions? These are the statements and actions I would expect of a scoundrel or a madman such as Adolph Hitler.
- Monday November 17, 2003 at 4:47 pm
Clark , testifying ? sure¡ . He will be as honest as Olie remember? gi'me a break please¡¡¡¡¡¡ . and if Del Monico is called it will be another "IIII er er don't recall"
M P
Gaillard Cut
Corte Culebra - Monday November 17, 2003 at 4:47 pm
Clark , testifying ? sure¡ . He will be as honest as Olie remember? gi'me a break please¡¡¡¡¡¡ . and if Del Monico is called it will be another "IIII er er don't recall"
M P
Gaillard Cut
Corte Culebra - Monday November 17, 2003 at 6:16 pm
Compaired to 1 MILLION Serbs kiled by ustasa - 43 000 on Kozara alone. WE STILL REMEBER!!! JASENOVAC, GRADISKA, JADOVNO, MEDJUGORJE. ONE THIRD KILLED ONE THIRD CONVERTED ONE THIRD EXPELLED. Show me where did EVER Milosevic stated the same?
Dakic Ana
Serbia - Monday November 17, 2003 at 7:17 pm
Peter Taylor, It's galling what goes on with the press. The ONLY part of the former Yugoslavia that remained multi-ethnic, and not just multi-ethnic, but multi-multi-multi-ethnic, is Serbia. Do we ever get that fact in the news -- of course not! Liars and idiots, that is what we have to choose between in so-called journalists today who never call the bastard world "leaders" like Bush and Blair to task for anything of significance.
Anna P
California - Monday November 17, 2003 at 9:39 pm
Peter, - are you OK?Then could you maybe kindly let us know what mr. Milosevic might make of ret. General Wesley Clark, who stated that after the NATO air attack on 24 March, 1999 the exodus from Kosovo was "predictable", - even "entirely predictable"?
Although I cannot readily find it, I distinctly remember that statement! Wouldn't it lead (you) to questions like: "Then what on earth were you doing, Commander?"
Godfred Louis-Jensen
Copenhagen
D E N MA R K - Monday November 17, 2003 at 10:09 pm
M Donne,- pleased to read you loud and clear (November 16, 2003 at 5:23 pm).
Indeed there is a massive list of war crimes for which the candidate, ret. General Wesley Clark, should be held accountable, - as described maybe first and foremost in the FRY White Book on "NATO Crimes in Yugoslavia" (the first volume of which appeared already during the bombing, with a moving introduction by then FRY Minister of Foreign Affairs, mr. Zivodan Jovanovic).
I am confident, that mr. Milosevic questions Clark about NATO's "reprehensible tactics"...
...but believe, that we (in the JURIST discussion) can and therefore maybe also should contribute towards identifying those questions:
I do not really remember "the NATO bombing of a small bridge, (when) the congregation of a nearby church poured out to help..."
Could you give me a hint, please?
Godfred Louis-Jensen
Copenhagen
D E N M A R K - Monday November 17, 2003 at 11:46 pm
An outline of aims and ideas:On March 27, 1999 U.S.-Nato Commanding General Wesley Clark announced that it was 'entirely predictable' that Serb terror and violence would intensify after the onset of (the NATO) bombing.
On the same day, State Department spokesperson James Rubin said that 'The United States is extremely alarmed by reports of an escalating pattern of Serbian attacks on Kosovar Albanian civilians'. Shortly after, Clark reported again that he was not surprised by the sharp escalation of Serb terror after the bombing: 'The military authorities fully anticipated the vicious approach that Milosevic would adopt, as well as the terrible efficiency with which he would carry it out.'
UK Defence Secretary George Robertson had described NATO's 'clear cut' aim as 'to avert an impending humanitarian catastrophe by disrupting the violent attacks currently being carried out by the Yugoslav security forces against the Kosovar Albanians'. This was directly contradicted by Commanding General Clark when he admitted that the bombing operation 'was not designed [by the political leadership] as a means of blocking Serb ethnic cleansing. There was never any intent to do that. That was not the idea.'
I drew the above from David Cromwell's review of Noam Chomsky's Rogue States: The Rule of Force in World Affairs:
"Chomsky is piercingly clear in his analysis of the US-led bombing," Cromwell writes. "The US precipitated a human rights disaster in the region, with the bombing preceding the massive flows of refugees and leading to a worsening of Serb atrocities - facts which strangely escaped the attentions of a compliant western media." (1).
Well, - excuse me for not having done my homework properly yet, but if:...it was 'entirely predictable' that Serb terror and violence would intensify (and) blocking it was not the idea.'
Then: What was the idea? General?
Eventually NATO didn't 'block' the Kosovo Albanian ethnic cleansing either!
(1) http://www.medialens.org/book_reviews/dc_nc_rogue_states.html
Godfred Louis-Jensen
Copenhagen
D E N M A R K - Monday November 17, 2003 at 11:59 pm
Godfred Louis-Jensen,I saw the piece about the little Serbian town whose residents are suing Germany on TV just last week. There were interviews, & I recall one of a young lady whose closest friend from the congregation had been killed by the second bombing.
I just sort of stumbled upon it & am ashamed to say that I don't have any details re what station was airing it, who was producing it, the exact date it was shown, etc. My apologies -- I will try to track it down.
I might have been a little too hasty with my post, though, because it later occurred to me that cross-examination only allows for questions on topics that were raised in the initial testimony. I'm sure both Clark & the prosecutors will carefully avoid leaving themselves vulnerable. On the other hand, Milosevic can be depended upon to seize any opportunity, to open any small crack they present.
M Donne
Canada - Tuesday November 18, 2003 at 12:48 am
"Serbian Families Sue Germans Over NATO Bombing"The story came up under several URLs, including a BBC one when I entered the keywords: Serbian Germany court.
The stories were too long to post but a subheadline read "35 yugoslavians are suing Germany over a deadly 1999 NATO bombing attack." And the introductory paragraph states "A German court (in Bonn) is slated to make legal history on Wednesday when families of civilians killed and injured in a 1999 NATO bombing attack on the Serbian town of Varvarin press for compensation." It goes on to describe the nature of the return attack. It appears to date back to October 15th, 2003.
M Donne
Canada - Tuesday November 18, 2003 at 12:53 am
Doen anyone have up to date stats on the nationality of the imprisoned and sentenced prisoners of the Hague psycho-goulagh? Thx
Ozren Vukobrat
Canada - Tuesday November 18, 2003 at 2:01 am
M. Donne, - any small crack?Indeed: 'Like you have a big door revolving on a small hinge', this one statement by ret. General Wesley Clark of what was 'entirely predictable' may well serve to show, that it was all a NATO setup...
You may be right I suppose in that "both Clark & the prosecutors will carefully (seek to) avoid leaving themselves vulnerable." But so did that former 'head' of the Kosovo Verification Mission, expert CIA-man William Walker, when he was testifying - and yet that big door swung wide open during the cross-examination (and - in my humble opinion - even before that during mr. Nice's polite interview)!
Remember? (Trial Transcripts of 12. June, 2002, - I believe).
Now, - 'Varvarin' is fine! Thank you so much!
In conclusion, let me tell you something different - from my own experience: I was in The Hague on November 8th for the protest rally in front of the Scheveningen prison. While well over 200 demonstrators were marching there, well let's say walking, strolling rather from the city centre, I took the opportunity to ask a number of people passing about their views of the 'Milosevic case', - you know: Why it would take 'the court' so long and why they would be so secret about their findings etc. (I remember you reporting the results of a similar question way back in this (now rather curious!) discussion forum).
I had a fairly lengthy chat then with a young man, who finally concluded that I 'was obviously fairly well informed about details, - but wrong' about the matter. He turned out to be a lawyer, - one of mr. Nice's hands at the ICTY (or maybe just a finger?).
That was, - well: Nice! Quite nice at least.
Sometimes I feel that some of us, who were merely playing the modest rôles as 'concerned NATO citizens' and/or humble taxpayers financing the NATO cluster bombs, ballistic missiles, F-16 fighters etc. (as well as the simultaneous soap opera in Bruxelles) should testify!
I would certainly love to answer questions like: How did you feel about your country going to war for the first time in 135 years?
Great?
Godfred Louis-Jensen
Copenhagen
D E N M A R K - Tuesday November 18, 2003 at 2:23 am
M. Donne:Or nice little questions like this:
Did (or do) you believe that in the early morning hours on 15 January 1999, villagers in Racak were shot throughout the village?
Did (or do) you believe that a group of app. 25 men attempting to hide in a building were removed to a nearby hill, where they were shot and killed?
Yes or no? Why not...
Godfred Louis-Jensen
Copenhagen
D E N M A R K - Tuesday November 18, 2003 at 6:04 am
Check out his ex-yu press pages. It's a Goldmine.
Alexei Gorbulski
Brussels
Belgium - Tuesday November 18, 2003 at 6:14 am
See also The New Yorker letting Wesley Clark of the leash over his Kosovo hypocrisy: GENERAL CLARK’S BATTLESThe subject was how the war in Iraq, which Clark calls a “historic blunder,” differed from the 1999 war over Kosovo, which Clark commanded. Clark was welcomed into the campaign by many Democrats as the triumphant commander of Kosovo, and he uses the lessons of Kosovo to explain his criticism of the Iraq war. In a speech at the University of Iowa College of Law, on September 19th, Clark had declared that chief among America’s mistakes was that it had gone to war in Iraq without “the mantle of authority” bestowed by United Nations approval. But hadn’t the Kosovo war also been conducted without the endorsement of the U.N. Security Council? Yes, Clark allowed, and in that regard the Kosovo war was “technically illegal.” He went on, “The Russians and the Chinese said they would both veto it. There was never a chance that it would be authorized.” That situation did not seem entirely dissimilar from the prewar maneuverings regarding Iraq, when France and Germany said that they would oppose any Security Council resolution authorizing an immediate war; Bush bypassed the U.N. and resorted to an alliance with Prime Minister Tony Blair’s Britain and sundry lesser members of the “coalition of the willing.” But there was one more important difference, Clark said: the war against Serbia was waged to stop the imminent threat of ethnic cleansing in the disputed province of Kosovo; the war in Iraq, he said, was waged under false pretenses.
Alexei Gorbulski
Brussels
Belgium - Tuesday November 18, 2003 at 9:58 am
Interested Party,The SPS did not run a candidate in the presidential elections. Therefore no conclusions can be drawn about the SPS on the basis of those elections.
The elections do however prove that DOS is incredibly unpopular.
The SPS has faired much better than the SRS in recent municipal level elections, so it is a mistake to say that the SPS in any way depends on the SRS.
I only suggested that the two parties cooperate inorder to overthrow DOS.
Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States - Tuesday November 18, 2003 at 10:06 am
1992+, Bosnian Moslem forces(later led by Nasis Oric), cleansed Serbs from around Srebrenica and Gorazde, only retreating to those towns when the advantage changed.All Serbs from Mostar and surrounding regions cleansed at beginning of war.
Fikret Abdic, leader of 60,000 moslems, proclaims the "Autonomous Region of Western Bosnia", supported by the Bosnian Serb Army against the Sarajevo moslem government.
Obviously the Media didn't find Croat and Bosnian Moslem camps as "sexy" to report as Bosnian Serb camps. Clearly didn't understand the concept of "civil war".
Just Lurkin\'
Old Europe - Tuesday November 18, 2003 at 11:34 am
This (article) appeared in The New York Times of today:
The plea bargaining, along with a series of changes in the rules, is part of the tribunal's exit strategy, which is being actively promoted by Pierre-Richard Prosper, the Bush administration's ambassador for war crimes issues.
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La - Tuesday November 18, 2003 at 11:35 am
Big mistake by the Chinese ,if they would've vetoed no Chinese lives would've been lost by"mistake"? . As per Russia Alcoholic stumbling Yeltsin had few billion of dollars loan in jeopardy if he used the veto "and few bottles of vodka with it" . But Serbia has always overcome the hard way this little international "intrigues" .
M P
Pedro Miguel Locks
Chagres - Tuesday November 18, 2003 at 11:57 am
The fact that the Bosnia "Rape Camp" story is an obvious fabrication can be seen from the way the story was broken.The Bosnian civil war started in March 1992, but the rape camp stories did not break until December 1992.
The rape stories held that Bosnian Serbs used rape as part of their "ethnic cleansing" campaign from day one of the war.
Between March and December 1992 tens of thousands of journalists and humanitarian workers travelled through Bosnia.
Had Moslem women been rounded up and taken to "Rape Camps" then this could not have been hidden.
Moslems would have approached journalists and other outsiders and asked them to investigate what has happened to their women.
Questions would certainly have been asked.
But no one asked any questions. There were no news stories about women disappearing.
The Red Cross were present in every POW camp in the Republika Srpska, and they neither saw evidence of rape camps nor did they hear stories of Moslem women disappearing.
The story was preposterous from day 1.
Michael Thomas
London
UK - Tuesday November 18, 2003 at 1:02 pm
Hi GodfredYes I’m OK: I presume your concern relates to England’s 2 - 3 soccer defeat at the hands - feet actually- of the Danes on Sunday? (-: I’ve finished crying in my beer and I console myself with the suspicion that this is due to some Scandinavian plot to have Erickson manage the England team. However worse has come upon us in our beating today: England achieved its second ever lowest score at the hands - actually - of the Sri Lankan cricket team. I look forward with trepidation to next Saturday when the Wallabies threaten to thrash England - with hands and feet - in the World Cup Rugby Final :-)
I can’t tell you what Milosevic might make of General Clark’s comment ‘that the Kosovo exodus following the bombing was entirely predictable’ because I can’t read minds especially not in Serbo-Croat. But I agree with Clark, social scientists and common sense that one quits an area that is being bombed if one has the means to go to a place of safety. It was a phenomenon observed during the WW2 night bombing of London that people with cars and the petrol to use them and no other means of safety would drive out into the country and sleep in their cold uncomfortable cars.
One never hears from the west’s media the fact that many Kosovars fled misguidedly even into Serbia away from both Clark’s bombs and his troops on the ground: the KLA who murdered anyone who got in their way: Misguidedly because Blair and his Nato associates then sanctioned the bombing of civilian targets in Serbia proper: hospitals, schools, housing estates, TV stations, hotels, water supplies, power stations … Why else did Nato’s bombs kill up to 1000 in Kosovo alone: some 400 in just five raids in the early days of the bombing.
I believe Clark knew exactly what he was doing in his alliance with his KLA ground troops: frightening the Kosovars into fleeing Kosovo in order to blame it on the Serbs. But I doubt if he will reveal this fact in open court to Milosevic.
The job of the military is to kill people ‘legitimately’: that surely means only in self-defence from attack. Thus Clark is surely a war criminal on this ground alone. But it is those such as Blair who attack sovereign states without this legality and sanction the bombing of civilian targets that bear the major responsibility.
Contrast the actions of the then Major Radosavljevic at Racak where he was ordered to destroy a KLA terrorist stronghold from which gangs were murdering police and civilians in the area. Del Ponte dare not indict him for the alleged Racak massacre because the evidence shows he had every justification for attacking this fortified area. So we are left with the nonsense of the attack on Serbia being based on a lie: A lie that Milosevic is fighting in The Hague. Contradictions don’t come any more obvious than this. But it makes no difference as our pot-bellied commentator explains below.
Why historians are our only hope
Anonymous posting from another forum that surely reflects the opinions or insouciance of most US citizens and Blair plus his lubricious UK supporters:
I already told you: we don't really care what you have to say about Milosevic; we are Americans and WE RULE THE WORLD, if we say Milosevic is guilty of genocide, than he is guilty of genocide; if we say Milosevic is a nazi, then he is a nazi.
Our military budget is seven times bigger than all the other countries taken together, and our president will increase it even more. Our troops are the best trained troops in the entire universe, the marines, US navy and US air force rule, so MAKE NO MISTAKE ABOUT IT: we decide what's going on in the world.
Who will oppose us? Russians are begging for credits, Europeans need the OIL we control because we are the STRONGEST. We make the policy in the Middle East, we say how much oil will be extracted and if Iraq will have any objections, Iraq will disintegrate the same way Yugoslavia or Afghanistan did; I repeat, who will oppose us?
We live nice comfy lives, our people has cheap gas and full tummies, and also selective hearing (we've been training them for a long time, CNN knows what it does), why would anybody have any objection to our foreign policy? ..and all it remains for you to do is admire us, because otherwise we will go to your place and take you back in time to the Stone Age.
It's human nature, people are like that, if it's not us it's somebody else; but for the time being we rule, so don't waste your breath for nothing: WE WILL DO WHAT WE LIKE FOR AS LONG AS WE LIKE.
That is until two billion Chinese achieve sufficient power to knock some sense into them in a decade or two.
Peter Taylor
Herts/UK - Tuesday November 18, 2003 at 1:38 pm
Peter , please let me add something from my own , to all those whit small children better start thinking on Mandarin as second language . p>Chinese still remember Gengis Khan. p> p>chinese still remember Manchukuo.p> p>Chinese still remember Belgrade Embassy.p>
M P
Miraflores Locks
Chagres - Tuesday November 18, 2003 at 1:40 pm
Have you ever noticed how Muslims hide behind human rights when its sutable for them?
Dakic Ana
Serbia - Tuesday November 18, 2003 at 2:33 pm
Dakic Ana,You mean sort of like how they hide behind pseudonyms?
Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States - Tuesday November 18, 2003 at 2:38 pm
Jovic at the Hague Today:http://www.slobodan-milosevic.org/news/smorg111803.htm
Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States - Tuesday November 18, 2003 at 2:44 pm
Yes just like them:)
Dakic Ana
Serbia - Tuesday November 18, 2003 at 2:49 pm
Milosevic unaware of atrocities in Croatia, says former ally | 17:57 | AP THE HAGUE -- Tuesday - Although Slobodan Milosevic's power stretched beyond the borders of Serbia, he had no knowledge of atrocities committed by Serb troops in Croatia, a former associate testified at Milosevic's war crimes trial today. Borisav Jovic was Serbia's representative in the federal Yugoslav government in the run-up to civil war at the start of the 1990s. He has been named in Milosevic's indictments as a potential war crimes suspect, though he has not been indicted. Milosevic "was not a nationalist, he was not a chauvinist, he never agreed with anything being done against someone because he was not a Serb," Jovic said under examination by prosecutor Geoffrey Nice. He said neither he nor Milosevic - as far as he knew - was aware of atrocities committed by federal Yugoslav troops or volunteer paramilitaries from Serbia that fought alongside them. Prosecutors say both men were part of a conspiracy to drive non-Serbs from Serb-dominated areas of Croatia and Bosnia in hopes of creating a "Greater Serbia." Milosevic, the former president of Serbia, is accused of 66 counts of war crimes at the U.N. tribunal, created to try war crimes committed in the former Yugoslavia. To convict Milosevic of war crimes in Bosnia and Croatia in 1991-95, prosecutors must show he had control over Serb troops there, and that he knew or should have known they were committing atrocities and failed to stop them. Milosevic, who is defending himself, did not have time to cross examine Jovic Tuesday, but has always denied having power over events beyond Serbian borders. In Jovic's statement, he described how he and Milosevic pushed Yugoslavia's defence minister, Veljko Kadijevic, to transform the multiethnic federal Yugoslav military into an army controlled by Serbs and used to defend the Serbian minorities in Croatia and Bosnia. Kadijevic gradually warmed to Milosevic's position and in a meeting on Sept. 28, 1991 he "offered to turn the army over to Serbia," Jovic said. "Milosevic then reiterated that personnel changes" to get rid of non-Serbs in high positions in the army "was the number one question," Jovic said. He denied that he or Milosevic had been aware of the massacre of 200 people outside Vukovar in November 1991, or of the shelling of Dubrovnik in the autumn of 1991, which left 34 dead and damaged the town's centre, a World Heritage site. Even after being shown film footage of damaged buildings in Dubrovnik, Jovic denied it was serious or had been done by Yugoslav troops. "I cannot be certain of anything on the basis of this two-minute film," he said. He said they were told by the army that "only two shells came into the old town by accident, and we believed them."
Dakic Ana
Serbia - Tuesday November 18, 2003 at 3:34 pm
Interesting, Babic was just indicted. I guess it doesn't pay to be a OTP whore anymore, unless of course you "play ball". I expect that Jovic, Vasiljevic, Vasiljkovic, Lilic, and Markovic indictments will soon follow.
P M
USA - Tuesday November 18, 2003 at 4:56 pm
Too right MP: the Chinese have very very long memories.I believe the set of three characters you are looking for to start a new paragraph are: <P>
Peter Taylor
Herts/UK - Tuesday November 18, 2003 at 5:29 pm
I have just come to the cybercafe to access the forum. I will then email it to myself because I don't have time to stay here. I emailed the 'feedback' section yesterday. I begged the moderator to please be aware of the length of the forum and of the posters who are heckling here and taking up space. I told them that the discussion diminishes because many of us don't have high speed access. Would somebody else also email the request?
Nikole J
Canada - Tuesday November 18, 2003 at 10:36 pm
THE PROSECUTOR OF THE TRIBUNAL AGAINST DRAGAN GAGOVIC, GOJKO JANKOVIC, JANKO JANJIC, RADOMIR KOVAC, ZORAN VUKOVIC, DRAGAN ZELENOVIC, DRAGOLJUB KUNARAC, RADOVAN STANKOVICA pledge by the new authorities in Belgrade to cooperate with The Hague war crimes tribunal was put to the test again last week. Tribunal Judge Patrick Robinson sent the Yugoslav authorities an order for the arrest of Radovan Stankovic and Dragan Zelenovic, accused of rape and other war crimes in Foca in 1992.
Two of the six - Dragan Gagovic and Janko Janjic - were killed resisting arrest. Three others, Dragoljub Kunarac, Radomir Kovac, and Zoran Vukovic, received prison sentences of 28, 20 and 12 years respectively. Another man on the list, Gojko Jankovic, could not be found.
Future organizers of rape-camps around the world will look at the French refusal to arrest Jankovic, who was indicted by an International Tribunal, whose arrest was mandated, who was surrounded by a massive NATO force, and whose crimes made world news, and realize that if Jankovic can act with impunity under such circumstances, they have no reason to fear consequences of their own behavior or moderate it in any way.
To bring Zelenovic to justice, the United States Government is offering a reward for information...In addition to the reward of up to $5 million, informants may be eligible for protection of their identities and relocation for their families.
On 10 July 2002, the Bosnian Serb, Radovan Stankovic has been arrested by SFOR troops in Trebijina, southeast Bosnia.
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