MILOSEVIC TRIAL DISCUSSION ARCHIVE

Is Slobodan Milosevic getting a fair trial?
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• discussion archive

• Wednesday November 19, 2003 at 3:16 am
  Josef Crow--Thank you for your interest in the US section of the ICDSM. If you are interested in participating, drop a line to info@icdsm-us.org and someone will get back to you very quickly.

  And this goes for any other contributor to this discussion board. If you want to help in the work of the ICDSM, drop a line to the above address, and you will hear back soon. Thanks very much in advance.
  
  George Szamuely
  New York
  N.Y.

• Wednesday November 19, 2003 at 6:06 am
  Remind me again did Roy Gutman and Andree Kaiser testified in Hague about rape and concentration camps. I guess Carla needs people like them to prove genocide charges. They should put the foot where their mouth is.
  
  Dakic Ana
  Serbia

• Wednesday November 19, 2003 at 6:11 am
  I belive there is one kind of people worse than war profiteers and those are ANTIWAR profiteers. People that profited on books, presentations and appearances by pointing fingers and presenting sensational stories of questionable truthfulness and credibility. People like Amanpour, Carol Off, Eric Margolis, Roy Gutman and Andree Kaiser, Karla de Ponte. But stupidity really stays with people who believe them.
  
  Dakic Ana
  Serbia

• Wednesday November 19, 2003 at 7:44 am
  Mr Wilcoxson, Ms Dakic it isnt just Muslums who hide behind human rights when it suits them. All nations / groups will use what they can to achieve their aims. There isnt a devious / sneaky gene in Muslums like the Nazis thought there was in Jews

  That kind of comment reminds me of the fundamentalist christian right who are anti muslum. Wrong and ignorant.
  
  A C
  US of A

• Wednesday November 19, 2003 at 7:54 am
  Ms Dakic how can the people who benefit from war be worse than those that started it?

  I will answer my own question. Its because there is no clear perpetrator who started the war. Then every Tom Dick and Harry wants to turn their fire on others.

  The bottom line is that who you call 'anti war profiteers' dont go round killing people and you belittle murder, rape, torture by instead of blaming those that started the crime instead blame others. I dont know some of the names you mentioned but it seems to me that the war came first and they came after.
  
  A C
  US of A

• Wednesday November 19, 2003 at 8:04 am
  New York, December 11, 2002-The The Committee to Protect Journalists (CPJ) welcomes today's decision by the United Nations war crimes tribunal on Yugoslavia to limit compelled testimony from war correspondents. The decision, announced this morning at the Appeals Chamber in the International War Crimes Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia in The Hague (ICTY), came in response to the appeal by former Washington Post reporter Jonathan Randal, who had been subpoened to testify in the case of former Bosnian-Serb housing minister Radoslav Brdjanin, who is facing charges of genocide because of his alleged role in the persecution and expulsion of more than 100,000 non-Serbs during the Bosnian war. The subpoena against Randal was set aside, and he is no longer required to testify.
  
  RE Roy
  Gutman

• Wednesday November 19, 2003 at 8:46 am
  Dear A C

  How many more 9/11 needs to happen for you to wake up and smell the coffee. Radical Muslims were ones Serbs were fighting in Bosnia - not like Fikret Abdic who is also a Muslim but allied with Serbs to preserve Yugoslavia. Have you ever heard of charity organizations that collected money and used it finance Bin Laden? And when it comes to who started a war ask your self why did your Congress in Aug 4 1990 a full year before war broke out in Yugoslavia and two years before Croatia and Bosnia were recognized as independent states - issuer a resolution that is shall not deal with Yugoslavia any more but just with constituencies (republic) of Yugoslavia? Why USA did NOT say that it shall only deal with Yugoslavia - is was good for majority of people. Also tell me where self-determination stops? If Croats separated from Yugoslavia - same right does Serbs have to separate from Croatia. Tell me the rules of nation building and please do not change them as you go along. Ask your self who armed first and why? Jovic is giving testimony now, and Lord Owen has testified at the beginning of month. BTW do forgive me - I do consider any religion that force woman to be slaves as evil.
  
  Dakic Ana
  Serbia

• Wednesday November 19, 2003 at 9:05 am
  Let me give you and example of antiwar profiteer. You have in the USA Civil right groups. If the law is in place to protect all citizens and all citizens are equal under the law - what is the point of having Civil right groups? Prime example is Jessie Jackson. He show up on any events that can promote him and by may be not creating a crisis, but by exaggerating crisis he has wheels in motion and is able to promote himself. If there were no crisis what would he do - preach. Same in Bosnia. As Hurst said - you provide pictures and I shall provide a war. And than people write books, sell them get a good jobs in CNN and BBC, build theirs carriers on somebody else misery. At least if somebody is selling arms you know what you are dealing with. These people do it in the name of common good - and the money is rolling (your money).
  
  Dakic Ana
  Serbia

• Wednesday November 19, 2003 at 9:21 am
  Correction:

  On November 5, 1990, a year before the civil wars in Yugoslavia have started, the US Congress passed the 1991 Foreign Operations Appropriation Law 101-513. This bill, without a previous warning, cut all aid, trade, credits and loans to Yugoslavia and then pushed the World Bank and International Monetary Fond to do the same. The bill derecognized the country of Yugoslavia and announced that the U.S. will deal with the constituent republics instead.
  
  Dakic Ana
  Serbia

• Wednesday November 19, 2003 at 9:46 am
  A.C.,

  It is crystal clear who started the wars in Yugoslavia.

  The journalists and Hague prosecutor that Dakic Ana enumerated as "anti-war profiteers" are actively engaged in the protection of the main protagonists of those wars.

  These "antiwar profiteers," are constructing insane consperacy theories (or should I say "joint criminal enterprise" theories). They are reporting rumors as if they were facts, and sometimes they just lie outright.

  By their actions they are endeavoring to obscure the facts about who started the wars, and can therefore be accused of protecting the instegators of those wars.

  As for the term "Muslims" when it is used in the context of the Balkans it generally refers to Bosnian-Muslim followers of Alija Izetbegovic's SDA, and not Muslims as a group.

  Those Muslims that followed Izetbegovic were a scheming and evil bunch. They would fire on the Bosnian Serb army from built-up areas of Sarajevo inorder to draw retaliatory fire onto the civilan who the Muslim authorities held in Sarajevo against their will.

  Two high UN officials who were in Sarajevo (Maj. Thomas from Canada and David Harland) both testified that Muslim forces would fire mortars onto Serb positions from the Kosevo Hospital in Sarajevo in order to draw the Serbs into firing on the hospital in retaliation.

  The Muslims endangered the lives of their own people so that they could present themselves to world as the victims. They had their own people killed and mamed for the sake of war propaganda.
  
  Andy Wilcoxson
  Washington, United States

• Wednesday November 19, 2003 at 10:21 am
  

  Well, it was all true:

  The Hague, 19 November 2003

  GENERAL WESLEY CLARK TO TESTIFY IN THE MILOSEVIC TRIAL ON 15 AND 16 DECEMBER 2003 NO PUBLIC ACCESS ON THOSE DATES

  RECORDING OF TESTIMONY TO BE MADE PUBLIC AFTER 48 HOURS

  On 17 November 2003, Trial Chamber III issued an Order for General Wesley Clark to testify in the Milosevic trial on 15 December 2003 and to be available to complete his testimony the following day.

  The Trial Chamber also made public an earlier confidential Decision, dated 30 October 2003, setting out the conditions under which General Clark is to give his testimony. In this Decision, the Trial Chamber granted the addition of General Clark to the Prosecution’s witness list, as well as extensive protective measures imposed by the Government of the United States of America (US Government) under Rule 70 of the Tribunal’s Rules of Procedure and Evidence (RPE).

  Background:

  The US Government has agreed to allow General Clark to testify in the Milosevic trial pursuant to Rule 70 of the RPE and as such, it is entitled to seek certain protective measures with respect to his testimony. These protective measures were requested through the Office of the Prosecutor.

  The Trial Chamber is bound by an Appeals Chamber Decision (Prosecutor v. Milosevic, "Decision on the Interpretation and Application of Rule 70" of 23 October, 2002) which grants the information provider (US Government) a right to impose certain conditions upon the testimony of a witness provided by it under Rule 70 of the RPE.

  The protective measures requested by the US Government are sought to protect its national interests and the Trial Chamber has granted these protective measures on this basis.

  On 30 October 2003 The Trial Chamber ordered as follows:

  1. "General Wesley Clark ("the witness") may be added to the Prosecution witness list;

  2. the witness’s testimony shall be treated as information provided pursuant to and protected by Rule 70 (C) and (D);

  3. two representatives of the US Government may be present in court during the testimony of the witness;

  4. the evidence of the witness shall be given in open session subject to the protective measures set out below;

  5. the evidence contained in paragraphs 61, 62, 63, 65, 66, 67 and 85 of the summary attached to the Motion as ex parte Annex A may be given in private session in order to protect the national interests of the US and request may be made for additional evidence to be so given on the same ground;

  6. the public gallery be closed during the course of the witness’s testimony;

  7. the broadcast of the testimony be delayed for a period of 48 hours to enable the US Government to review the transcript and make representations as to whether evidence given in open session should be redacted in order to protect the national interests of the US, and shall be delayed for a period thereafter to enable the Trial Chamber to consider and determine any redactions requested, and, if ordered, for the redactions to be made to the tape of the testimony prior to its release;

  8. the scope of examination-in-chief and cross-examination of the witness be limited to the content of the summary attached to the Motion as ex parte Annex A;

  9. The Accused or Amici Curiae may seek to have the scope of examination expanded by prior agreement of the US Government (obtained directly from that Government or through the representation of the Office of the Prosecutor), once the summary of the evidence-in-chief to be given is disclosed to them; and

  10. The Prosecution shall disclose the summary contained in ex parte Annex A forthwith".

  Gansters!
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Shangri-La

• Wednesday November 19, 2003 at 12:15 pm
  Godfred Louis-Jensen,

  How cool is it that you got to speak with one of Nice's cohorts! Were you able to get him to expand on his statement that you were wrong?

  Sadly, but not surprisingly, we will not be permitted to watch Wesley squirm, nor witness his cynical smile, nor watch his bareface as he lies, as hoped for by (if I recall correctly) David of Australia. Will his testimony be the 'coup de grace' that Del Ponte needs; a concoction devised to convict via secrecy &redacting all but words that support their case?

  Roy Gutman's book, 'A Witness to Genocide' was even by its title a propaganda piece supported by interviews of only one side of the equation. And re those interviews, as Milosevic said about the wailing Albanian 'victims' seeking publicity: "They must be very good actors". Indeed. Nancy Durham certainly gave credence to that observation. The Pulitzer Prize has been grossly diminished.
  
  M Donne
  Canada

• Wednesday November 19, 2003 at 12:26 pm
  Vera,

  I think the strategy of the Prosecution with Jovic is more wicked than that.

  What they are after is testimony that shows how Milosevic WANTED the break-up of Yugoslavia, in order to achieve "Greater Serbia". Same story as in the infamous book by Little & Silber.

  So, the fact that he did not advocate JNA intervention to prevent the secession of Slovenia does not contradict his alleged evil schemes - which, due to the lack of convincing evidence, are suuposed to have been so secret that not even Milosevic himself knew about it...

  Does that make sense?
  
  Matthias Gockel
  Germany

• Wednesday November 19, 2003 at 5:13 pm
  Matthias Gockel,

  The prosecution didn't get what it wanted. Mr. Nice had to resort to making thinly veiled threats against Jovic, and that didn't work.

  If you're interested in what happened today look at today's synopsis:

  http://www.slobodan-milosevic.org/news/smorg111903.htm

  Bora Jovic blew the prosecution's case to smitherines.
  
  Andy Wilcoxson
  Washington, United States

• Wednesday November 19, 2003 at 7:27 pm
  Ms Dakic you think it better to have a society where community groups are closed down? You believe that all our citizens have the same rights in the USA?

  Although you send from Serbia you sound like you know something about the US. If you do you know what Im talking about.

  yeah there are people making a lot of cash out there. They hide behind one cause or another. Is that reason enough to say the cause isnt just?

  As a tax payer Im not happy that my government uses my money way it does. But if we can give a helping hand to underprivalidged groups at home of in foreign countries shouldnt we try?

  Now I guess people tell me Im not living in the real world? But my world would be a better world.
  
  A C
  US of A

• Wednesday November 19, 2003 at 8:42 pm
  Witness to Lies,

  Excuse my ignorance, but which Lewis do you mean?

  Thanks in advance
  
  M Donne
  Canada

• Thursday November 20, 2003 at 1:18 am
  

  Jovic blew Nice and his case of criminal conspiracy for a Greater Serbia to bits. So did Lilic. In fact so did Owen, once the fog of propaganda was cleared from his eyes. Slobo is safe on that ground.

  Where Slobo is not safe is where the US has in its national interest the need to CONCEAL the truth from the world's public. And that is very nicely facilitated by the ICTY rules. Now why would it be in the US interest to conceal the TRUTH, THE WHOLE TRUTH AND NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH?

  Because the truth is not favourable to it, that's why. On the other hand, Serbia has NO NATIONAL INTERESTS as far as this joke of a legal circus is concerned.

  No doubt, an added incentive is that Clark would not want to be put in the unenviable position of having to squirm in public when Slobo starts asking questions. Not to mention that Clark and his other mates like Robertson etc were spewing contradictory stories about their objectives in the military sense in Kosovo. What a chickens***, two bit slug Clark is, only excelled as such by May.

  These two bit jerks lie to our faces in the media bullshit they spin us BUT when the time comes for them to really stand up and face the truth and the people, they slink off behind closed curtains.

  And we, the sheep of the world just accept it lying down without a whimper. No accountability, no democracy!

  The people of YU are OWED the TRUTH and an OPEN investigation by the ICTY! And so is the rest of the world the ICTY purports to represent.

  Enough of this behind the curtains stuff! Demand accountability from these ratbags who represent themselves first and last.
  
  David
  Oztrakia

• Thursday November 20, 2003 at 1:38 am
  

  "Truth and reconciliation" for the people of YU, in secret; behind closed doors!

  That simply kills ANY justification for the existence of the ICTY.

  The trio of clowns in the "trial" chamber, assuming they accept the suppression of Clark's evidence, will contradict and subvert the noble mission they claim to be performing... to facilitate justice and reconciliation for the suffering people of YU.
  
  David
  Oztralia

• Thursday November 20, 2003 at 1:42 am
  On 'Sixty Minutes II' tonight, Weasely Clark actually sprung tears. A practice performance?
  
  M Donne
  Canada

• Thursday November 20, 2003 at 2:06 am
  

  When the people of YU, and the rest of the world for that matter, are to hear the truth, the WHOLE truth and NOTHING but the truth, they are going to hear NOTHING!

  NOTHING but the Iron Curtain of silence!

  And that's considered to be in the national interest of the US?

  I wonder how many US citizens think it's in their interest to be fed mushrooms ad infinitum?

  If the Vietnam excursion, the myriad excursions around the world in the last 100 years and most recently the destruction of Iraq and its people hasn't woken them up, then nothing will!

  At least Germany could write Hitler off on the basis of his totalitarian control. What excuse are the people of "the greatest democracy in history" going to have? ... The iron curtain of SILENCE!
  
  David
  Oztralia

• Thursday November 20, 2003 at 2:16 am
  

  "On 'Sixty Minutes II' tonight, Weasely Clark actually sprung tears. A practice performance?

  "Don't cry for me California..." . Unfortunately we won't get to see him cry on the stand when Milosevic is finished with his cross-examination. Damn!
  
  Dissatisfied Viewer
  The Hague
  No Man\'s Lands

• Thursday November 20, 2003 at 3:17 am
  

  And talking of ana Iron Curtain of Silence at the Hague, note the other curtain of silence in the freedom loving democratic media about Jovic's testimony! Don't believe me, check it out for yourselves... Search for "milosevic trial" in Google...

  http://news.google.com/news?q=milosevic+trial&num=20&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&safe=off&scoring=d

  ...and you'll be unpleasantly surprised that the freedom loving democratic media barely makes scant reference to Jovic at the Hague, except to heap crap on Milosevic and when Jovic's testimony is so clearly in favour of Milosevic's case... They go TOTALLY SILENT

  Now HOW MUCH OF A COINCIDENCE CAN THAT BE, I ask you, especially since the same pattern has been repeated on countless occasions with other witnesses?

  "If you can't smell the coffee, you must have crap for brains", or so the saying goes. Check it out!

  http://news.google.com/news?q=milosevic+trial&num=20&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&safe=off&scoring=d
  
  David
  Oztralia

• Thursday November 20, 2003 at 4:15 am
  You might find this useful chaps and chapesses!

  you can preview your html before you post
  
  It\'s not so Hard
  Earth

• Thursday November 20, 2003 at 6:37 am
  Dear A C

  I have lived in socialist/communist society where everything was done in the name of the people and for the people. Yes I do want better lives for all, but look around. To be fair to US at least nobody is unattainable under the law. Now look an ICTY. who is financing it how it works and who has the least amount of people charged - Muslims. I have seen the picture of cut of human heads in Kosovo. A Serbian caught as a prisoner had his head cut of. Everybody start saying in your mainstream media it is a setup. When Muslim shell its own people to set up Serbs - an this trial showed that over and over again - everything was taken in the face value. It takes Serbs 100 X more effort to proven its case. Why? Because Serbs proven have money like Arabs to finance public opinion. You know what makes it extremely sad? That Croatian immigration from the WWII financed their cause using stolen money - robbed from Serbs during WWII and brought to west using Vatican "rat lines". So forgive me "quite frankly my dear I do not give a damn" for any type of political correctness. p.s Also I do belive that law should come before religion.
  
  Dakic Ana
  Serbia

• Thursday November 20, 2003 at 6:42 am
  Also community groups should not come before laws of the country. Otherwise you shal have 1 million law suits that sue Florida for asking woman to uncover her face for driving license. Ant the funny thing is that she is requesting something that is not even in use in Jirda, Egipt, Siria... because there you have to show your face. LAW before Religion or community group.
  
  Dakic Ana
  Serbia

• Thursday November 20, 2003 at 7:49 am
  Ps. I type to fast so forgive me for bad spelling:)
  
  Dakic Ana
  Serbia

• Thursday November 20, 2003 at 9:44 am
  I know something about the law in the US Ms Dakic. I know the way that successive administrations have attempted to place their own judges at top level. The law doesnt take priority in any country, politics does.

  I have looked around thats why I want better lives for all. I dont live in some crystal palace away from urban communities. Where I live I can not and will not pretend that everything is ok in our country. Im not the one to shout 'get a job' at somebody because I'm angry at myself for caring that they are homeless.

  I cant believe you are looking at the tribunal in religious terms. Even the most extreme viewpoint will not try to talk of a conspiracy on behalf of muslums. I can testify to that since I have seen what its like to be a muslum in the US right now. Its rubbish. What, the Europeans and Americans want to screw their own religion in favour of a rival one? And at the same time they are pursuing the war against terror mostly against muslums? I can understand you being angry but your view does not make sense.

  Ms Dakic do you think that muslums in Yugoslavia are so bloodthirsty that despite them being smaller in number than Croats and Serbs that they committed more crimes? I dont believe that. I believe that crimes were largely committed in proportion to populations. Why should you expect then that there should be more or equal muslums as Serbs and Croats. I agree that more ALBANIANS and BOSNIAN MUSLUMS should be prosecuted.

  All sides committed crimes lets be clear about that. Let us not copy the stupidty of those who say one side is to blame.

  By the way if an catholic committs a war crime do you assume that he's a Croat? Using your religious description of war criminals an Albanian catholic doesnt count as Muslum does he?

  Please clarify.
  
  A C
  US of A

• Thursday November 20, 2003 at 10:00 am
  Nancy Durham of the CBC presented a story about a young KLA woman who claimed her 9-year-old sister had been raped & killed by the Serbs in Kosovo. Her documentary about the KlA woman & her sister was widely broadcast and gained wholesale sympathy around the world.

  Ms Durham felt great empathy for the young KLA woman's grief & having become close to her during her interviews, later travelled back to visit her at her home only to find the younger sister alive, happy & well, sitting on a couch watching TV.

  Ms Durham had the integrity to report that she had been dupped, along with the KLA woman's statement that the Kosovar Albanians would use any method they could to further their agenda.

  As far as I can find, any internet item under Nancy Durham's name referencing this story has had the content deleted.

  Only her anti-Serb stories remain.

  
  
  M Donne
  Canada

• Thursday November 20, 2003 at 10:02 am
  Oh, if you're going to try a search for the Nancy Durham story, the young KlA woman's name was Ramonah, & the original documentary included her name -- something like 'Ramonah's Story'.
  
  M Donne
  Canada

• Thursday November 20, 2003 at 10:08 am
  Yikes! My mistake -- the woman's name is Ramondah -- NOT Ramonah.

  Sorry about that.
  
  M Donne
  Canada

• Thursday November 20, 2003 at 10:23 am
  Well, actually I did find the story with the name spelt 'Rajmonda'.

  Guess I got up too early this morning. But, in some cases, the story under the heading was deleted.
  
  M Donne
  Canada

• Thursday November 20, 2003 at 11:16 am
  What I am saying that ONLY in the case of SERBS ICTY is “GOING TO THE TOP” and with “joint criminal enterprise”. Why were not Hasim Tachi, Agim Ceku and Alija Izedbegovic indited as the commanding officers for crimes their people committed? As for if all Croats are Catholics - 98% yes. If all Albanians are Muslim 98% yes. However only in Yugoslavia during communism you also had Muslim atheist - a Muslims that do not believe in God. I am not naïve - I do know some Serbs did commit horrifying crimes (Arkan) and I do not care if he was hanged together with Bin Laden side by side. However, imagine my suprise when friend of mine (a Muslim) escaped with his family from Bratunac because of Arkan and came to SERBIA to seek refuge. A Muslim running from the Serbs seeking and receiving shelter in Serbia during time when Milosevic was a president of Serbia. So why is he on trial again? Tell me why would 40 000 Albanians running away from Serbian terror in Kosovo chose to hide in Serbia proper? All I am saying is that due to Arab money that is able to finance PR campaign, we have selective justice in Hague. Also I believe that having Milosevic I Hague is the best thing that happened to Serbian people because we now know on what kind of crap whole PR campaign is based on. We now know fact or better yet the lack of them:). As for ICTY I do not believe that is a religious court only - again - that its partiality is heavily influenced by Arab money.
  
  Dakic Ana
  Serbia

• Thursday November 20, 2003 at 12:02 pm
  
  Blair: No Compromise in Dealing with Terrorism

  Voice of America News, 20 November 2003

  British Prime Minister Tony Blair says there will be no compromise and no hesitation when it comes to defeating terrorism.

  But in Kosovo Blair supports terrorism! Terrorism that is also backed by bin Laden’s al-Qaeda: A terrorist KLA army that included units of Mujahedin. Why do so many have faith in men like Blair who spout such contradictory nonsense. Forgive my deliberate tautology: contradictions are nonsense.

  Mr. Blair said the world must confront the hate of terrorists with the calls of democracy and freedom

  .

  Just look at Kosovo four years into Blair’s rule as a principal leader of Nato’s attack upon the Serbs. If Kosovo is an example of his “democracy and freedom” then God help the Iraqis.

  Evidence of horrific crimes by Kosovo’s terrorists supported by Blair are ignored while those who fought this terror are dragged before his corrupt court the ICTY. Unbelievably the presiding judge in the trial of Milosevic is a New Labour associate of Blair. In any civilised system of justice this fact alone would give cause for a mistrial.
  
  Peter Taylor
  Herts/UK

• Thursday November 20, 2003 at 1:19 pm
  Did Alija Lujinovic testify in Hague on Milosevic trial? If not ot does not exist they are just stories like sleeping beauty. Put your foot where your mouth is - say it in court!
  
  Dakic Ana
  Serbia

• Thursday November 20, 2003 at 2:18 pm
  If witnesses are not providing details, that is their problem. Milosevic's vigorous cross-examination is no excuse for people to sling accusations at Serbia and its government and the Serb people in the media, while shutting up during cross-examination "due to fear." This kind of forgery is in the same spirit as the rape stories - just allegations and mud and hatred, but no credible testimonies (nor that many false testimonies, either!) or forensics. Pure garbage.
  
  P M
  USA

• Thursday November 20, 2003 at 2:29 pm
  Answer my question did he testify in Hague? Defendant has right to use ANY AND EVERY means within what court allow to cross - examine witness. Any person that witnessed the event will NOT be confused. Only persons that lied are confused since they can NOT remember details. Example - I saw a car crash and when I gave statement I was able to remember so many details. Imagine how much you remember if your life is in danger.
  
  Dakic Ana
  Serbia

• Thursday November 20, 2003 at 2:33 pm
  And the reason why the cross - examination is so important is to protect person from mob mentality. I can not remember what is the name of the person that was first accused of abducting Elizabeth Smart. Everybody was saying that he is guilty jut to be proven otherwise once he died. That is mob mentality with “I heard that...” not facts.
  
  Dakic Ana
  Serbia

• Thursday November 20, 2003 at 2:36 pm
  What is the name again of the perso that was "telling a truth" - Rajmonda is the word.
  
  Dakic Ana
  Serbia

• Thursday November 20, 2003 at 4:50 pm
  Today at the Hague Tribunal:

  http://www.slobodan-milosevic.org/news/smorg112003.htm

  Jovic finished his testimony.
  
  Andy Wilcoxson
  Washington, United States

• Thursday November 20, 2003 at 4:58 pm
  grinding them into animal feed....

  No shit?

  I guess that means that the tribunal should be looking for those 8,000 men and boys from Srebrenica on the shelves of Serbian pet stores.

  I'm going to do my part, I'll stop feeding my dog "Uncle Arkan" brand kibble.
  
  Andy Wilcoxson
  Washington, United States

• Thursday November 20, 2003 at 5:25 pm
  I don't want to seem calous, but grinding people into animal feed? COME ON! Thats just too stupid to be true. How could anybody be dumb enough to believe a story like that?

  Besides, I have a video tape of the Omarska camp. And the people there don't look like they've been mistreated.

  What's more is ITN's Penny Marshall can be seen on the tape talking to the people at the camp. She went to Omarska on the same day that she went to Trnopolje. So I don't want to hear any B.S. about the Serbs being like the Khmer Rouge and the Iraqi government.
  
  Andy Wilcoxson
  Washington, United States

• Thursday November 20, 2003 at 6:15 pm
  

  Allow me to take my hat of to Jovic for the dignified and credible manner in which he conducted himself. Here we had a guy who wasn't using the "I heard from someone third hand" stories.

  It should be clear now that Croatia and Slovenia set about forming their own SS troops to hit the JNA in order to effect their secession.

  It should be clear that Germany supported this strategy which was ILLEGAL under the YU constitution and every European treaty regarding the borders in Europe.

  It should be clear that onc eGermany had got its way, the US was missing out on influence in the region and decided to get in for its slice of the action, namely to get Bosnia and parts of Serbia. They could expect the Serbs to resist (historically the guys were always a problem for any colonialists) so they went with the crowd who were always happy to accommodate the colonial powers and who could be relied on to fight a proxy war against the Serbs (namely the Bosnian Muslims and the Albanian KLA).

  And it was all done with the full knowledge that it was ILLEGAL under international law!

  And that's it in a nutshell, ladies and gentlemen.

  The ICTY is simply a vehicle for reversing the obvious illegality of what was done to YU and legitimising and legalising it for the sake of history and enabling future takeovers of small nations who are at the mercy of the bloodsuckers of the Empire.

  Corporate raiding on a global and national scale! Those who resist will be punished.

  All in the name of freedom, as George W and Tony Bliar say.

  No wonder so many people are committing more and more suicides throughout the world. The Cold War just seems to have been replaced by an increasingly hotter one. Pretty soon we won't even have a kitchen to get out of!
  
  David
  Oztralia

• Thursday November 20, 2003 at 6:55 pm
  My friends are from Croatia, Dubrovnik to be exact. They don't really like Serb people. Mostly because when they were 13 years or so they were made to flee their homes and were refugees for about 3 years in Sarajevo, then zagreb then slovenia then austria. They know that one afternoon they had to leave because troops from Crna Gora were close to Dubrovnik and that there was gunfire in the hills behind them. Now the point is.......these guys hate war......they've seen it. When they were young they couldn't even contemplate a future where war would exist. Their families were generally Yugoslav, with Croatian background, and they had an easy life renting out some of their property in the holiday seasons and making a lot of money in the process. Generally being very well off. For them, they don't like many Serbs anymore because of the war, and because they have encountered Serbs who still feel bitter about the results of the Balkan Wars. They also don't like many Croatians who talk right wing and act fascist. The thing is, these guys and their like are the future of the region. The way they bring up their families and interact with others is how history will be remembered. Their willingness to accept people as people striving for the best in their lives is what in my hope is the future of the region. Thes guys are neither political nor god-fearing, yet they are proudly Croatian. They are not proud of the war, of how it occurred, and what occurred during it, but they are proud they can be involved in Croatia's future. They had nothing to do with the war starting or how it was played out, yet they and their type will have an important role in the next 50 years. I am a little concerned in that the people who contribute to this discussion board are quite intellectual, yet I am almost positive that on meeting them and finding out about them many of you would call them fascists/ustase....and other slanders would be brought against them, because of the fact they are proud to be Croatians. This has occurred to them in the past, and unfortunately has led these guys to look not too favourably upon many Serbs. My main point is........if you want a future where past wrongs are righted, you need to nurture a friendship with the people who were once your enemies. These guys have no problem in surrendering croatian war criminals, primarily as they are ashamed to be associated with them. Unfortunately, some of the problems still occurring in the balkans, and which will be affecting its future, are witnessed right here on this discussion board. hopefully there are people still willing to live their lives, rather than living other people's.
  
  ivan koko
  sydney
  nsw