 MILOSEVIC TRIAL DISCUSSION ARCHIVE |
| JURIST >> LEGAL NEWS - WORLD LAW >> Discussion >> Milosevic Trial Discussion Archive |
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Former Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic is on trial for war crimes in the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia at The Hague. This marks the first time a head of state has been personally prosecuted before an international criminal court.
Is Slobodan Milosevic getting a fair trial?
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- discussion archive
- Friday November 21, 2003 at 1:29 am
Did they testify? Have they been cross examined and isn't it in the interest of truth to have all facts on the open? Why should Washington Post object and does that mean that his testemony is not crucial - taht seing people eating each others testicals is NOT crucial for ICTY? My head hurts!
Dakic Ana
Serbia - Friday November 21, 2003 at 1:31 am
"who had a live pigeon stuffed into his mouth to stifle the screams as he died in agony..." QUESTION:man or pigeon?
Dakic Ana
Serbia - Friday November 21, 2003 at 1:35 am
The Associated Press Gen. Zivota Panic, who headed the former Yugoslav army in the early years of the Balkan wars, has died, the army said Thursday. He was 70. Panic died Wednesday, according to the army of Serbia-Montenegro - the loose union that replaced Yugoslavia earlier this year. He was army chief of staff in 1992, when the former Yugoslavia broke up in a series of bloody wars. The Yugoslav army sided with Serb rebels in Croatia and Bosnia who took up arms to fight against their republic's independence. At the time, Panic was loyal to then-Serbian President Slobodan Milosevic, who is widely blamed for fomenting the wars. Milosevic is on trial at the U.N. war crimes tribunal in The Hague, Netherlands. Panic was removed from the post following an alleged corruption affair and retired in 1993. The funeral was set for Saturday.Does anybody knows who writes this crap for AP?
Dakic Ana
Serbia - Friday November 21, 2003 at 1:36 am
I find it interesting that Veljko Kadihevic and Panic were NOT indited by Hague. why?
Dakic Ana
Serbia - Friday November 21, 2003 at 2:44 am
Ana: They have not indicted Kadijevic and Panic because they could be useful afterwards.The Babic Principle (that's how I'll call it) is as follows:
1.) Abuse and manipulate the potential witness to give evidence (providing suitable bait, of course).
2.) If the witness complies, reward him with a new identity, job, etc. If he f*cks you, declare him a hostile witness, or try to trip him up in the examination or re-examination.
3.) If a witness has already been indicted, you may implement 1.) and 2.) via plea bargain, the bait being token sentences, such as 5 years for the massacre of 100 men.
4.) Witnesses that f*cked you can be punished in a variety of ways after the evidence is given. One way is to call an underling of the witness (such as a secretary privy to rumors) who will provide contradictory evidence. Another is to call witnesses who will accuse the "difficult" witness of war crimes, thus destroying credibility. And yet a third, and the finest, is to indict the witness for war crimes.
Note: All decisions are made prior to the indictments, the indictments are scripted primarily on the basis of media reports, and investigations follow indictments. If there is not enough evidence based on the original indictment, new ones can be raised, and several indictments can be combined under and overarching thesis formulated by the media and financial backers of the tribunal, years before.
P M
USA - Friday November 21, 2003 at 5:23 am
"The law now records that Penny Marshall and Ian Williams (and myself [Ed Vulliamy], for that matter) did not lie but told the truth when they exposed this crime to the world, and that the lie was that of Living Marxism and its dilettante supporters who sought, in the time-honoured traditions of revisionism, to deny those camps existed."liar, liar, pants on fire........
The law records, my dear fellow, that it could not be proven that your and Penny's fabricated tale was the result of deliberate intent, rather the law seems to have concluded that your fabrication was the result of being a dimwit.....furthermoreP> In the Judge's instructions to the Jury it was made abundently clear that the Judge concluded that you and Penny had lied.
Finally, one should note that ITN was able to provide hundreds of hours of raw footage Penny and you shot during the Bosnian trip........however the un-edited tape for the Omarska Refugee center had been mysteriously misplaced.
Your libel Trial proved only one thing, namely.........that your Omarska tale was fabricated.
Fortunately, there were other film crews there on the same day who were filing the same scenes as you were. That film crew didn't mysteriously misplace their raw footage.
Their unedited tapes are freely available (at www.tenc.net among other places).
Any reasonable person who watches the unedited footage of your and Penny's visit to Omarska will make the same conclusion as the English Judge..........you both lied.
AP V
NY
NY - Friday November 21, 2003 at 6:16 am
"Were I able to get 'one of Nice's cohorts' to expand on his statement?" M. Donne asks (November 19, 2003 at 12:15 pm)Well, not really - as yet! The young lawyer's remark that I "was wrong" (with regard to Milosevic's 'trial') was made in conclusion of our very brief and entirely unpredictable 'meeting' in The Hague on 8. November, 2003. I responded by conceding, that it may well be of course, that I am "wrong", - but 'in that case I am wrong at a high level', I told him.
"Well, - I wonder about that," the lawyer said, walking away from me.
These are quotations from memory, - I didn't carry any other recorder. Just after that a lady, who´d overheard our conversation, was excusing herself saying (in U.S. accent): "I understand that you are an architect, - could you kindly tell me, if the Norwegian architect (the name of whom she then gave me) is still alive?"
I told her that 'xxx' was indeed alive 'the last time I heard of him', - but had to promise her to further investigate the matter. For this reason I gave the lady my e-mail address, - so that she could send further background information. Gratefully she was then informing me, that the young lawyer with whom I just had that brief 'dicussion on the Milosevic trial' was her son-in-law (and - although that was not her expression - indeed he is 'one of Nice's cohorts').
A cool piece of sharp practice?
Well, - as yet I never heard from this lady or her son-in-law. Maybe I should publish the results of my further 'investigations' into the life and/or death of that Norwegian architect on this JURIST website?
Godfred Louis-Jensen
Copenhagen
D E N M A R K - Friday November 21, 2003 at 7:31 am
Ivane"...They are not proud of the war, of how it occurred, and what occurred during it, but they are proud they can be involved in Croatia's future..." There is nothing wrong of being Croatian and if you have been following trial even Melosevic was for idea that if Croatians and Slovens want to leave it should be their right. You go girl. As a Serb I don't give a rats for independent Croatia. But the problem is that occurred illegally, that Croatia expelled up to half a million of its own citizens just because they did not want to be called orthodox Croats but Serbs as they are. They lost their jobs, lives and thy took arms ONLY after Croatian paramilitary attacked first. In 1991 there were 12.5% Serbs in Croatia. Now there are 4% Serbs. That is what the issue is. Are you as a Proud Croatian going to do a right thing and allow those people that have been living on their farms since 16 century to return home and claim theirs property. ONLY after Croatia takes care of its own you can call yourself a proud Croatian.
p.s. People don't not always like a right thing but it should not prevent them from doing a right thing.
Dakic Ana
Serbia - Friday November 21, 2003 at 8:32 am
Ivan your sentiments are admirable. You / they did nothing wrong. However their pride should be tempered by the fact that the establishment of a Croatian state was a heavy price to pay and that Serbs living there paid the heaviest price in the medium and long term. Do you know how many Serbs have been sentanced in absentia for war crimes in Croatia? Too many and whats more it seems more as a tactic to prevent Serbs and others from returning. A little bit of modesty and humility after all the macho crap we have heard in the past decade from all sides is necessary.
M Simonovic
UK - Friday November 21, 2003 at 9:28 am
Old Friends Clash in CourtTHE HAGUE -- Thursday - Slobodan Milosevic and his onetime confidant Borisav Jovic have clashed at the war crimes trial of the former Yugoslav president over claims he exercised “absolute authority”.
During his cross-examination of the witness, Milosevic conceded that he was “the leading personality in Serbia”, but said this did not mean he refused to listen to others.
The former Yugoslav president, on trial at the United Nations tribunal in The Hague, dismissed talk of a personality cult, claiming he had personally asked that people stop carrying his picture, but to no avail. “They’re being carried around in Serbia today, despite the three years I’ve spent in prison”, he commented.
Jovic, who was Serbia’s representative on the presidency of the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, told the court he had enjoyed a more privileged position than most state officials when it came to bending Milosevic’s ear. But even then, he said, the final decision always came down to the will of the president.
The witness, who claims to have once been Milosevic’s closest associate, said that after his dismissal from the Socialist Party of Serbia in 1995 he was systematically isolated. He even claimed his face had been erased from a television report on the celebration of Serbia’s Day of State, which he himself had proclaimed on March 28, 1989.
Jovic had spoken earlier of Milosevic’s controlling influence over the media in Serbia. Milosevic today dismissed this, listing a number of papers, radio and television stations that he said were “in the hands of the oppositions”.
But the exchanges on the whole were cordial, with both men addressing each other in the informal form of “you”. Jovic agreed with the defendant’s version of events in the 1990s, and backed Milosevic’s claim he did not influence the decisions of the collective Presidency or the Yugoslav armed forces.
Defendant and witness agreed that the fall of Yugoslavia was triggered by the secession of Slovenia and Croatia, with the encouragement of Germany and the United States. Serbia, they said, had embraced a market economy long before Slovenia or any of the other former Yugoslav republics.
Jovic said they had both condemned the Serb shelling of Sarajevo and did everything they could to end the war in Bosnia.
M P
Domingo - Friday November 21, 2003 at 9:55 am
Goto:
http://www.emperors-clothes.com/film/judgment.htmGet the tape, and you can see the footage for yourself. You can see the men on the other side of the fence telling Penny Marshall right to her face that they are not in a prison, and that they are being treated well.
You can see the footage from the Omarska and the Trnopolje camps for yourself, and you can clearly see that Penny Marshall there and she's looking around and interviewing people.
I'll tell you though, this talk about human rights abuses during the war is a non-sequitur. These sorts of arguments about who did what to who during a war are a diversion.
Let's be honest about what war is. War is nothing but an attempt to inflict so much pain and suffering on the other side that they give-in and let you have your way. You are either going to force your opposition to change its position by inflicting so much pain on it that it gives in, or else you're going to eliminate your opposition. That is war.
When dealing with what happened in the Balkans. The only thing that is important is establishing who instegated the wars. Nothing is ever going to be solved by arguing about who did what to who during the war. Everybody was doing nasty things to everybody. You could spend the next hundred arguing about this and you still wouldn't get anywhere.
The ones who should be punished are the ones who started the wars, because without the war in the first place no atrocities could have been committed against anybody.
As far as warcrimes are concerned the only ones that matter are aggression and crimes against peace. Because all of the bad things that happen in war (murder, looting, rape) flow from the original crime of the war being starting in the first place.
Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States - Friday November 21, 2003 at 10:32 am
Too right AndyNo prize for guessing who has initiated the most wars during the past six years?
But here's a clue: He's a conviction politician who 'believes' passionately in wiping out terrorists and supporing them.
Peter Taylor
Herts/UK - Friday November 21, 2003 at 11:12 am
Or he does it out of humanitarian reasons to stop genocide.
Dakic Ana
Serbia - Friday November 21, 2003 at 11:23 am
In regard to the famous picture from Trnopolje (The Picture That Fooled the World), I think it is fair to say that Ed Vulliamy lied repeatedly about the matter. In fact, he committed perjury in the Hague.On July 17, 1998, he testified in the case against Dr. Kovacevic who died a few months later, due to injuries inflicted on him when he was captured by NATO troops in Bosnia-Herzegovina. His defense lawyer Anthony D'Amato spoke of "torture".
The following is an extract from the cross-examination of Vulliamy. The full text can be found at www.un.org/icty/transe24/980717.htm
[Start of quote, on p. 1140]
"A. I don't remember whether we talked about the actual fencing. The barbed wire was separating the prisoners from us when we first arrived at the camp.
Q. Sir, those words are clear, yet in my opinion are unclear. They were separating you because you were on one side of the fence and they were on the other side; correct?
A. Yeah. We were on one side of the barbed wire fence and they were on the inside of the barbed wire fence.
Q. Sir, isn't it true that you were on the inside of the fence when you took that footage?
A. No. They were the ones who were contained. We had stopped our vans and come from the road.
Q. Now, sir, isn't it true, and are you familiar with criticism that has been attributed to this barbed wire footage that, in fact . . . That the barbed wire, that there was no barbed wire surrounding the Trnopolje camp?
A. The barbed wire did not go all the way around the compound, there was other forms of wire and a wall, but the barbed wire was between them and us when we arrived at the camp . . . You asked me if I was familiar with the criticism. Yes, I am. It's been going on a long time. It is the subject of litigation in my country, and I would be most grateful if I could perhaps give some background to the Court about this or we could proceed with questions at the Court's pleasure.
JUDGE MAY: Well, let me see the point. The issue is whether there was barbed wire around the camp at all; is that what you're suggesting? That there was no barbed wire around the camp.
MR. OSTOJIC: There was no barbed wire surrounding the camp as this man wrote in his book and there was only a section of the centre where there was a barbed wire . . .
JUDGE MAY: So we have the point that this barbed wire was inside the camp and that the photograph was in some way manufactured. That's the essence.
MR. OSTOJIC: Manufactured or distorted.
JUDGE MAY: Or whatever. No doubt the witness can deal with that briefly.
A. Yes, I'll be as brief as I possibly can. This is a theory which was -- which I first heard about as written up by a man called Thomas Deichmann who was a Defence witness [correct: expert witness, M.G.] in the Tadic case, and who somehow got to view ITN material which was disclosed having been given to the Prosecution . . .
This claim that somehow we were inside a compound and that these prisoners were outside a compound first appeared in Britain by Mr. Deichmann in a magazine called Living Marxism which is the journal of a party called the Revolutionary Communist Party.
JUDGE MAY: I'm going to stop you. We're not concerned with -- I'm going to stop you. We are not concerned with Mr. Deichmann. I think what would be most helpful, if you would just to tell us what happened when you arrived where the men were, and how the photographs came to be taken.
A. I would be delighted.
JUDGE MAY: If you would tell us that, please.
A. We were going to Trnopolje from Omarska. We were arriving at the Trnopolje camp. I was in one bus, Penny Marshall's crew was in a mini van just ahead of us, we saw this extraordinary sight of this crowd of men behind a barbed wire fence. Penny's van pulled up. She got out, understandably, she's a television reporter, very quickly and made towards the fence. I followed. Our van obviously pulled up behind. I followed. The conversations that we had with the men, as I've described in my testimony, were through the barbed wire fence. They were in a compound which was enclosed, and there were guards guarding them in the enclosure. Suggestions to the contrary are the subject of what I said defamation proceedings in my country. That is how we came to find the men behind the barbed wire fence."
[end of quote]
He goes on to say that there might have been other wire-fences too and that there was no barbed-wire fence around the camp as a whole, but he insists that the people he interviewed were behind barbed-wire fence.
Given what we know now, this is clearly a case of prejury. I don't see how Vulliamy could claim that he forgot how the scene looked like, especially since he is so certain about the matter.
Matthias Gockel
Germany - Friday November 21, 2003 at 12:05 pm
When President Milosevic finishes cross exam. It will be for sure "last train to Clarksville" I mean WA. As far as reconciliation you can be surprised how far has gotten , now everybody is suffering from "Yugo-nostalgy" . there will always be radicals and people that had great loses and can't be blamed for their attitude , but at the end intelligence and common sence will prevail for a true reconciliation where events will be remembered , but forgiveness from all sides will overcome the pain and suffering .
M P
The land divided
The world united - Friday November 21, 2003 at 5:53 pm
IMHO, Villiamy's sophistry is paralleled only by his descriptors. For example: "reptilian squint" used to image Milosevic's expression. Have you ever seen a reptile squint? Maybe in a cartoon. Are Villiamy's writings then fodder for the funny papers? Or perhaps -- as succinctly suggested -- the product of a dim wit?BTW, who's going to be left holding the tarbaby when the truth wins? The leading purveyors of the big lie have been very busy protecting themselves via bilateral agreements and so forth. I guess that leaves mostly members of the media who were led to believe there was safety and reward in paving the path, only to find themselves stuck to their own material, almost impossible to now divest, unless they take some preemptive action very quickly; not easily accomplished if one is at one's wit's end.
M Donne
Canada - Friday November 21, 2003 at 7:20 pm
More sophistry. The question was about imprisonment behind a barbed wire fence. The question was not 'was he imprisoned?'
M Donne
Canada - Friday November 21, 2003 at 7:26 pm
There was no barbed-wire fence surrounding Trnopolje camp. It was not a prison, and certainly not a "concentration camp," but a collection center for refugees, many of whom went there seeking safety and could leave again if they wished.
Writes Mr
Deichmann - Friday November 21, 2003 at 7:55 pm
British journalist Edward Vulliamy provided the tribunal with its first look inside the Omarska prison camp...He also showed video from another camp, Trnopolje...The men were forced to run through the camp, then were given one minute to gulp down a meal of watery beans and a piece of bread. Vulliamy said he suspected the meal was staged for the benefit of the visiting journalists because he thought at the time that if the men ate even half that well every day, they wouldn't be as thin as they were.
But Of Course
Fikret Alic Suffered From Tuberculosis - Friday November 21, 2003 at 10:17 pm
On Monday Newsday reported that official laws and decrees gave Milosevic responsibility for the actions of "paramilitary" and army forces in the assault against Bosnia. A classified 1987 army doctrine for a state of emergency and the secret 1989 implementing decree also establish a basis for setting up concentration camps. The doctrine calls for local citizens to "identify and expose ringleaders and operatives of enemy and other destructive operations," and for the security services to arrest "subversives, criminals and the like." It authorizes "political isolation, in combination with other measures and procedures, including physical liquidation." The 1989 implementing decree also gave authority to order a compulsory stay "in a certain place for certain persons." Senior U.S. officials in a recent interview said there is no dispute that Milosevic was in control of the government and the army. In late May, 1992, Milosevic formally withdrew the federal army from Bosnia. Simultaneously, Karadzic and Mladic announced the creation of a Bosnian Serb army. The "withdrawal" after six weeks of open operations in which the army seized two-thirds of Bosnian territory, was a ruse to deflect Western criticism, a top Milosevic aide said recently."We knew that when Bosnia was recognized we'd be seen as the aggressors, because our army was there," said Borisav Jovic, Serbia's representative on the collective presidency at the break-up of Yugosalavia. "Only Milosevic and I were talking about it. We did not consult anybody else. Our conclusion was that we had to act before they did," he said in a recent British Broadcasting Corporation documentary, "The Death of Yugoslavia." Accordingly, Milosevic transferred all Bosnian troops and officers back to Bosnia and withdrew some 13,000 non-Bosnians, leaving behind a trained and well equipped army of 80,000, according to western military experts. Milosevic stayed in control by providing supplies and paying their wages. "We promised to pay their costs," Jovic told the BBC. "They couldn't manage even to pay their officers' wages."
Roy Gutman
Article - Friday November 21, 2003 at 10:29 pm
Hey Roy, a link would be nice!
Peter Varavejke
Belgium - Friday November 21, 2003 at 10:42 pm
Give us some sources on what smells badly as US 'evidence' several weeks before Clark will testify. By the way, tell me more about 1987 and Milosevic!
Peter Varavejke
Belgium - Friday November 21, 2003 at 10:51 pm
The Tadic Appeal Judgment identified three categories of criminal liability pursuant to a joint criminal enterprise. The first category is where all the participants in the joint criminal enterprise share the same criminal intent. The second category is similar but relates to the concentration camp cases... The third category identified by the Tadic Appeal Judgment is distinguishable. It applies where all of the participants share a common intention to carry out particular criminal acts and where the principal offender commits an act which falls outside of the intended joint criminal enterprise but which was nevertheless a “ natural and foreseeable consequence” of effecting the agreed joint criminal enterprise.A person participates in that joint criminal enterprise
...
(iii) by acting in furtherance of a particular system in which the crime is committed by reason of the accused’s position of authority or function, and with knowledge of the nature of that system and intent to further that system.
The Krnojelac
Judgment - Friday November 21, 2003 at 10:55 pm
Ah Roy, those were the days!Kosovo Concentration Camps Reported
By TONY CZUCZKA Associated Press Writer
BONN, Germany (AP) - Germany said today it has ``serious reports'' that Yugoslav forces have set up concentration camps in Kosovo for ethnic Albanians rounded up in the embattled province.
It was the first time a NATO country has spoken of the possibility of such camps amid a flood of reports that Serb-led forces are conducting a terror campaign to rid Kosovo of its ethnic majority.
German Defense Minister Rudolf Scharping cited growing evidence that Yugoslav soldiers and paramilitary troops were rounding up Kosovo civilians in their villages. Men and teenage boys were being killed or interned in camps, he said.
``We have serious reports that there are concentration camps like there were in Bosnia,'' Scharping told a news conference. He gave no details but indicated NATO was trying to confirm their existence.
Earlier, the Kosovo Albanians' negotiator at failed peace talks with Yugoslavia said there were three ``concentration camps'' in Kosovo.
One camp was the main stadium in Pristina, Kosovo's capital, where 100,000 people were interned, Hashim Thaci said late Tuesday in an interview on German television.
It was unclear whether Scharping had additional evidence of camps.
Scharping said other reports, as yet unconfirmed, that leading ethnic Albanian intellectuals were executed by the Serb ``killing machine'' brought to mind the early phase of the Bosnian war - as well as tactics used by Nazi Germany.
``It's a systematic extermination that recalls in a horrible way what was done in the name of Germany at the beginning of World War II, for example in Poland,'' he said.
In addition, interpreters who worked with an international observer force since withdrawing from Kosovo have been ``systematically'' killed by Serbs, Scharping said.
Scharping said Germany also has received reports that Yugoslav authorities are already resettling Serbs in areas of Kosovo from which the ethnic Albanian population had been cleared.
German Foreign Minister Joschka Fischer accused Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic of directing a campaign of expulsions, rape and killing in Kosovo.
``This is the primitive strategy we're faced with,'' he said.
Fischer has called a meeting of Balkan officials Thursday in Bonn to find ways to speed aid to more than 100,000 Kosovo refugees who have fled to neighboring countries since NATO's air assault began a week ago.
Stressing the urgency, Macedonia's premier met German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder today, saying his country needs Western help to stave off ``economic collapse'' because of the refugee wave.
Macedonia has taken in 35,000 Kosovo refugees and 30,000 more are approaching the border, Ljubco Georgevski said.
http://www.alb-net.com/kcc/index18e.htm#1
Peter Varavejke
Belgium - Friday November 21, 2003 at 10:56 pm
I think that both Penny Marshall and those who deny Trnopolje's (and in some cases Omarska's) existence, have done a great disservice to the truth.Certainly, at the time, in the region of Prijedor, there were three main detention camps. The Omarska camp was the most brutal, with regular killings, and is reported to have been as awful as Celebici. Keraterm comes second. And Trnopolje was a camp primarily for refugees (whereas Omarska was for Muslim and some Croat men, mostly fighters, but also members of the SDA and some people in prominent positions in society). That doesn't mean that conditions in Trnopolje weren't bad. Probably there was serious abuse, beatings, and even torture. I cannot, however, believe that there was substantial evidence for rapes or killings. I find it hard to believe that a camp where people were murdered or raped in great numbers would have a doctor (a Muslim!), and that this doctor would be assigned the task of treating hurt and sick inmates.
However, to claim that no camps existed on the Bosnian Serb side, or that they were all nice refugee camps "for the safety of the refugees," and that there was no inhumanity perpetrated within them, and that the population was free to move about, IS PATENTLY UNTRUE. The statements of inmates while they are in a camp cannot be trusted, whether they be Serbs, Croats, or Muslims. Quite simply, they must make statements that fit with the image their captors are trying to convey - and speaking the truth could lead to very bad consequences - torture, rape, or death.
However, ITN's interpretation and forgery, depicting these DETENTION camps, as places of mass murder and mass rape is also PATENTLY UNTRUE. The comparison to Bergen-Belsen is downright REVOLTING. And I think that some of the inmates later gave false testimony and claimed they were victims of crimes that never happened. One example would be Cigelj, who I believe was never raped. Nevertheless, many people suffered abuse, torture, blackmail, rape, or even died in these detention camps, the worst being Omarska in the Prijedor region.
P M
USA - Friday November 21, 2003 at 10:57 pm
P.S. for those who don't know, Celebici was a Muslim-Croat run camp for Serbs in Konjic in central Bosnia.
P M
USA - Friday November 21, 2003 at 10:59 pm
http://www.cco.caltech.edu/~bosnia/criminal/newsday_2.html
Dan B
Canada - Friday November 21, 2003 at 11:02 pm
Penny Marshall, Ian Williams, and Ed Vulliamy have never called Trnopolje a concentration camp.
Writes Thomas
Deichmann - Friday November 21, 2003 at 11:08 pm
Hey Roy, some intersting reading at:http://www.epic.org/privacy/terrorism/hr3162.html
Peter Varavejke
Belgium - Saturday November 22, 2003 at 12:45 am
Ed, Penny, and co.One notes that you immediately wander over to the Diechman article.
People don't need to accept Deichman's words at face value.
They can see the full un-edited footage for themselves.
Anyone who sees the unedited footage shot by the 2nd camara crew that day and compares it with the edited tape Penny and you presented will make the proper conclusion.........
You fabricated a headline grabbing story for self aggrandizment
You also forget to respond to the idea that the Judge accepted that you had lied. His instructions to the jury are very clear on that point.
The Jury was instructed not to decide if Penny & Co. lied as was apparent to the Judge, only to determine if they had deliberately done so with intent to injure.
We do not need to rely on Deichman's written word. We have the raw tape as well as the Judge's instructions.
BTW.........did you ever find that mysteriously missing un-edited tape ? of your Ormaska visit ?
AP V
NY
NY - Saturday November 22, 2003 at 1:11 am
LM's lawyers asked repeatedly, over the course of a year for the missing shots, which showed Fikret Alic in close-up; finally, ITN claimed - amazingly - that the tape was lost!
Not Omarska
Trnopolje - Saturday November 22, 2003 at 4:32 am
For whom it may concern:A remarkable sense of the relationship between architecture and nature gave the Norwegian Sverre Fehn a front-line position in the ranks of postwar architects. With his friend and collegue, equally
Norwegian architect Geir Grung (1926-1989)
Sverre Fehn designed the museum building for the 'Sandvigske Samlinger' at Maihaugen in Lillehammer...
Ref.: November 21, 2003 at 6:16 am
Godfred Louis-Jensen
Copenhagen
D E N M A R K - Saturday November 22, 2003 at 9:58 am
UN warns of war crimes tribunal funding shortfall
One UN diplomat suggested the non-payment could reflect either a loss of interest or loss of confidence, and noted that the Sierra Leone tribunal also faced financial difficulties.
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La - Saturday November 22, 2003 at 12:13 pm
Thank you Moderator:)
Dakic Ana
Serbia - Saturday November 22, 2003 at 9:43 pm
...NOT BEING JUST TO THE WITNESS?"On the 15th (of January, 1999), I did not know that KLA members had been killed (in Racak)!
In fact, I did not know that (any) civilians had been killed either," said the witness, Canadian general Maisonneuve, when on 29 May 2002 he was being cross-examined by mr. Milosevic.
So what did this general, our trusted 'verifier', really know?
"It was (not untill the following morning) on the 16th that we discovered the bodies, and I can tell you, from my observations, that these bodies were civilians," the general told us (Trial Trancripts, Page 5841,19).
Well, - let's go back a bit, doing it again:
MILOSEVIC:...the entire world public has been informed by your boss, the head of (the) KVM, (U.S. Ambassador William) Walker, that there was a massacre in Racak, that civilians were killed. So...why was such an assessment given without the data that you obtained or that you could have obtained...?
WITNESS (appealing to the Judge): Your Honour, that's a question that I can't answer because it was done by -- by Ambassador Walker. That was his assessment!
WITNESS (turning towards mr. Milosevic): Is that what you're asking me, whether -- why was the assessment done?
MILOSEVIC: I'm asking you, mr. Maisonneuve, in view of your obligations as a verifier - and I assume that there is also your obligation to tell the truth - you had to know, on the 15th when you entered Racak that it was KLA members who were killed there. Is that right or is that not right?
WITNESS: On the 15th, I did not know that KLA members had been killed. In fact, I did not know that civilians had been killed either.
It was on the 16th that we discovered the bodies, and I can tell you, from my observations, that these bodies were civilians. In my assessment, they were not members of the KLA, the bodies that we found...
MILOSEVIC: All right...I'm asking you about whether you knew that KLA members had been killed. And since your answer is no, I would like to remind you...that in a document that you authored and that was provided by the Prosecution...the last paragraph...says: "A number of members of the KLA were killed and a few were wounded."
That's what it says here in your document.
WITNESS: This assessment was written on the 16th of January, Mr. Milosevic, not on the 15th.
MILOSEVIC: Well, I assume, since the 16th comes after the 15th, that you did write on the 16th what you established on the 15th?
13 JUDGE MAY: You are not -- you are not being just to the witness. He's told you clearly that on the 15th, he didn't know, but by the 16th, he did...
Sure! But if on the 15th this high-ranking OSCE verifier-in-command did not know that anybody had been killed in Racak, - then were they? Maybe those bodies 'discovered' in the up-hill gully on the following morning were brought there from somewhere else - all in the darkness of the night?
Godfred Louis-Jensen
Copenhagen
D E N M A R K - Saturday November 22, 2003 at 10:32 pm
Leaders of the World Peace Council demandthe release of President Milosevic!
Recognizing SLOBODA/Freedom Association as the only organization in Serbia struggling effectively for peace, sovereignty and equality, the Executive Committee of the World Peace Council in the Meeting held in Athens on 16/17 November, 2003 decided to admit SLOBODA into full membership of the World Peace Council, - one of the oldest and most distinguished non-governmental organizations in the UN system.
During the same meeting, leaders of the World Peace Council and of the the national organizations signed the following
P E T I T I O N
The illegal trial of Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic by the illegal NATO puppet tribunal at The Hague is a tool of warfare against freedom and stability, a mockery of universal judicial and human rights protection principles and an attempted murder!
After the popular resistance prevented in 1999 military occupation of Yugoslavia, the aggression against that country continues by other means. Blackmail, bribery and subversion were the tools of the “regime change” in Belgrade in 2000. The crimes committed in the NATO aggression against Yugoslavia are now to obtain a posteriori justification by the kidnapping and inhuman political trial of the democratically elected President of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, Slobodan Milosevic.
Approaching its end, the two years lasting presentation of the charges by the prosecution, in spite of numerous manipulations, fabrications and false witnesses, brought no evidence whatsoever. On the contrary, already in the cross-examination of the prosecution witnesses, President Milosevic succeeded to say much about the people’s struggle for sovereignty and equality and to present grave charges against the imperialist aggression and colonization of the Balkans, spreading now to many parts of the World.
Unable to defeat President Milosevic in the courtroom, the modern-time inquisitors attempt to silence him. By the lack of medical care and by the inhuman prison and trial conditions, requiring over-human efforts or making impossible defense preparations, President Slobodan Milosevic (62), with malignant hypertension and damaged heart is in the constant threat of infarct or stroke.
Therefore: We demand
the immediate release of President Milosevic.
We call upon all UN members and all concerned UN bodies to review the evidence of unjust, unfair and political character of the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia at The Hague and its grave violations of human rights, discrediting the World Organization and to act towards its abolishment.
We express our solidarity with the people and progressive forces in Serbia and Montenegro in their strive to regain freedom, sovereignty and democracy.
Athens, 17 November 2003
Signed by:
Romesh Chandra, President of Honor of the World Peace Council
Athanasios Pafilis, General Secretary of the Greek Committee for International Detente and Peace, Executive Secretary of the World Peace Council
Nikos Fotiadis, Vice-President of the Greek Committee for International Detente and Peace
Orlando Fundora, President of the Cuban Movement for Peace, Vice-President of the World Peace Council
Arturo Espinosa, Vice-President of the Cuban Movement for Peace
Manuel Yepe, Secretary of the Cuban Movement for Peace
Abdelrahman Merie, General Secretary of the Palestinian Council for Justice and Peace, member of the Secretariat of the World Peace Council
Pham Van-Chuong, Vietnam Peace and Development Foundation
Ta Quoc Tuan, Vietnam Peace and Development Foundation
Pallab Sengupta, All India Peace and Solidarity Organization
Baerbel Schindler-Saefkov, German Peace Council
Manuel Terrazas, President of the Mexican Peace Council
Rina Bertaccini, Movement for Peace, Friendship and Solidarity among Peoples (Argentina)
Stephanos Stephanou, Cyprus Peace Council
Kim Il Bong, Korean National Peace Council
Nela Martinez, Peace and Independence (Ecuador)
Gilberto Calvo, Costa Rican National Peace Council
D. Okombi, African Commission of the World Peace Council
Juan Pablo Acosta, Dominican Union of Journalists for Peace
Emin Cetin, Peace Association (Turkey)
Pol De Vos, President of the Anti-Imperialist League (Belgium)
Vladimir Krsljanin, Freedom Association, Serbia
-----------------------------------
Detailed instructions at: http://www.sloboda.org.yu/pomoc.htm
Visit: http://www.sloboda.org.yu/ (Sloboda/Freedom association)
(relayed as received by)
Godfred Louis-Jensen
Copenhagen
D E N M A R K - Saturday November 22, 2003 at 11:24 pm
...WILLIAM WALKERS OWN CREATION?Prosecutor, mr. NICE: Before we turn from the press statement: The words used, did anybody else contribute to or cause you to use any of the words, or were they your choice?
Witness, Ambassador WALKER: My statement was totally my creation...
(Trial Transcripts, Pages 6804-6805)
Godfred Louis-Jensen
Copenhagen
D E N M A R K - Saturday November 22, 2003 at 11:51 pm
I am amazed at this:"September 15, 2003 - An international colloquium on the breakup of the former Yugoslavia brought the world's leading experts on the subject to the University of Alberta this weekend, and shed new light on contemporary Balkan history."
http://www.sla.purdue.edu/si/
The Scholars’ Initiative: Resolving the Yugoslav Controversies
One wonder's what their results will be!
Dan B
Canada - Sunday November 23, 2003 at 4:55 pm
'Free Milosevic, Jail Bush!'
P WP
(the REAL saboteurs are those who EMBEZZLE funds for the Defence! Show us the money, Jared!)
Bas Canada - Monday November 24, 2003 at 12:59 am
Re: The Scholars’ Initiative: Resolving the Yugoslav Controversies
One only has to look at the sponsors, Soros's crowd, and participants such as slimeball, 5th columnist, mercenary slut Natasha Kandic, to see the results they're going to come up with.
Maybe they're keen to have an "independent" academic ruling on "Serbian crimes" in case the ICTY doesn't come up with the goods on Milosevic?
They obviously don't have too much faith in the prosecution's case. On the basis of the evidence and the proceedings so far they are ABSOLUTELY right in their scepticism.
David
Oztralia - Monday November 24, 2003 at 1:07 am
More on the Scolars' Initiative ... "At the same time, we are committed to integrating as many younger scholars as possible as a necessary investment in the region’s future by helping to establish the reputation of a new generation of scholars who can break with the national chauvinism of so many of the academic profession’s senior figures".
In other words we are looking for the "finest scholars" money can buy (to write history the way we like it)!
David
Oztralia - Monday November 24, 2003 at 1:25 am
Re Weasley Clark's testimony by order of the Chamber: ... "the scope of examination-in-chief and cross-examination of the witness be limited to the content of the summary attached to the Motion as ex parte Annex A;...."
As Mr May siad: YOU WILL ASK THE QUESTIONS WE WANT YOU TO ASK! YOU CANNOT ASK ANYTHING WE DO NOT WANT YOU TO ASK! PERIOD!
And if we, or our sponsors, the US government, don't like the answers to the questions you ask, or if we do not consider them to be in our or our sponsors' interests, we will have them redacted because it's none of anyone else's business or interest!
Go democracy! Welcome to the Brave New World (Order)!
David
Oztralia - Monday November 24, 2003 at 7:39 am
TO PUT IT SIMPLE:NATO was using the incident at Racak in Kosovo on 15th January, 1999 as a CASUS BELLI, - its excuse for air attacks within the territory of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. The misrepresentation of the event as a deliberate 'massacre' gave support for a series of agressive NATO initiatives leading eventually to its armed agression two months later, subsequent to which the indictment issued against President Milosevic and other members of the FRY leadership on 23. May, 1999 included 'Racak' as the one and only charge concerning 'Kosovo' dated prior to the start of NATO's war.
During an outrageously protracted Prosecution's case a whole series of eyewitnesses and others have exposed this charge for 'Murder' as a fabrication by NATO. If in fact the incident at Racak were a 'mass killing' committed by the accused for the purpose of expelling a substantial portion of the population from the territory of the Province of Kosovo, then even all the fabrications might have served the Prosecutor well as evidence, - but they have come up with nothing. ICTY's charges have come to nothing but to confirm, that NATOs unscrupulous aggression began with an abominable lie!
NATO was deliberately misrepresenting the facts in order to cover up for its actions in preparation for war against the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia; and the ICTY Prosecution has worked to the best of its ability to cover up for NATO.
Godfred Louis-Jensen
Copenhagen
D E N M A R K - Monday November 24, 2003 at 8:54 am
How about this "Think wrong and you'll guess" .- You help us in the collapse of the soviet system , and we can help you out with lets say , Croatia and Slovenia by pressing the desintegration of Yugoslavia , Countries that you will be the first to recognize , establishing a "moral" precedent . Vatican , Germany , US "axis of dominance"
M P
The Isthmus - Monday November 24, 2003 at 2:38 pm
Today at the Hague:http://www.slobodan-milosevic.org/news/smorg112403.htm
Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States - Monday November 24, 2003 at 8:02 pm
Blair and the MayorWe all witnessed Blair’s ‘passionate’ declaration of determination last week ‘to wipe out terrorism wherever it occurred’ demon eyes flashing as he looks forward to his sixth war in as many years.
Equally we observe that he supported Islamic terror in Kosovo also backed by bin Laden’s al-Qaeda which included units of Mujahedin: Blair engaging in not a little terror of his own. At least tacitly Blair still supports terror in Kosovo. Since Blair’s Nato commander General Jackson occupied the place and incorporated the KLA as Kosovo’s police force there have been some three thousand murders with practically no apprehensions. More than a hundred Christian churches have been destroyed and a quarter of a million of Kosovo’s minority populations have been unable to return safely to their homes.
Today witnessed the second murder of a UNMIK police officer: several more heaving been injured over the years. The first murder was pinned falsely on the Serbs just as was the recent murder of a young Kosovo Serb farmer.
Am I mistaken in believing that Kosovo exists in “wherever”?
But Blair is not the only charlatan in this black comedy being played out by the west’s leaders. Today 24 November Mayor Bloomberg of New York flew to Pristina, the capital of Kosovo to lay a wreath at the statue of Mother Theresa. Bloomberg voiced similar sentiments to Blair about terror in the USA before his visit.
"Terrorism can't be limited to the other guys' backyard. It hurts all of us," Bloomberg said. "When you see terrorism elsewhere, they are going to strike at you eventually, so you have to be part of the fight against terrorism."
While in Kosovo, drawing parallels between the peacekeeping mission and America's war on terrorism, Bloomberg handed the commander of U.S. troops in Kosovo a piece of charred steel left over from the terrorist attack on the World Trade Center.
How do these masters of irony keep such straight faces?
Tis our fate to have such leaders
They treat us all like suckers
A cabal of clever pleaders
And gaggle of feather pluckersGreat lies tolled in our ears do ring
Their words no man relies on
They never say a foolish thing
Nor ever do a wise oneWith reference to John Wilmot’s observation on Charles II
Peter Taylor
Herts/UK