MILOSEVIC TRIAL DISCUSSION ARCHIVE

Is Slobodan Milosevic getting a fair trial?
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• discussion archive

• Saturday November 23, 2002 at 10:32 am
  

  Milosevic Given Wrong Medicines in the Hague -Paper

  
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Conn. USA

• Saturday November 23, 2002 at 12:31 pm
  Gogol, thanks for the news. Many of us discussed this possibility one way or the other. This explains sudden miraculous recovery of Mr. Milosevic. It explains the motive. Let's make him sick. He will die or we will enforce a defense lawyer on him and see how this works. If this does not work we will deal with Mr. Milosevic later as required. These guys are not as suffocated crooks as I expected them to be.
  
  Pera Bora
  Canada

• Saturday November 23, 2002 at 1:34 pm
  

  Why Yugoslavia was dragged to the execution block without a trial?

  Yugoslavia economically was half-successful communist country. Self-management business system, invented and used in Yugoslavia, was original and had potential to become alternative economic system of the future. It never functioned properly and to its full potential because its inventors, Yugoslav communists, suppressed the laws of economy and their consequences. Yugoslavia had very successful military industry and excellent military schools. Yugoslavia helped many ex colonies of the Western World to liberate. It equipped and trained their armies. Yugoslavia was one of the founders and certanly main moderator and driving force of the Non-alliance Organization. For the country of 20 million people it become too powerful and influential in the World Affairs jungle. In order to achieve the unipolar (UN-popular) New World Order System Yugoslavia had to be destroyed.

  Why The Serbs were chosen to be enemies?

  The Serbs were glue of Yugoslavia. If you want to destroy a country you destroy the glue.

  
  
  Pera Bora
  Canada

• Saturday November 23, 2002 at 2:41 pm
  Pera, thanks for your last post. This theory is very interesting and I am also a supporter of it. Yugoslavia proved there is a third way and after the demise of the communist block it was punished severly for that. Nice analogy with the glue. I like it. Cheers, Ziveli.
  
  Aleks Stajic
  Germany

• Saturday November 23, 2002 at 4:19 pm
  

  Gogol,

  I noticed that a Mr. Christian Chartier appeared in the Reuters report you posted (he was denying that Milosevic had been given the wrong medicine). Mr. Chartier has been involved in some strange things in the past. Such as theso-called "Suicide" of Slavko Dokmanovic.

  I also found theoriginal NRC Handelsblad report, maybe if somebody here speaks Dutch we can get a better idea of what is being said other than just Reuters version of what was said.

  
  
  Andy Wilcoxson
  Washington, United States

• Saturday November 23, 2002 at 4:41 pm
  

  Automtic Translating Web Service

  Dismal results: I guess the "technology" is not there yet!
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Conn. USA

• Saturday November 23, 2002 at 5:01 pm
  ...the old yugoslavia (...my love)was an alternative...to stupidity...an alternative to stupidly bipolarized world (then) - just as all of the human race couldn't make anything better than running under the rule of new god - money , or under the rule of prohibitions and torture...an alternative that had many problems,but gave (not sold!)quite an amount of very human and practical things to its citizens...how about free educational system(on all levels),free health insurance for all....free rehabilitation centrums,quite an amount freedom and independance for an ordinary little man...how about individual financial independance...how about bank credits that were helping -not robbing it's clients...how about admiting that yugoslavia offered more quality life (to an ordinary citizen) than east and west could (and can) offer together...how about working times...how about multietnicity ?...how about the geografical beauty giving by nature ???
  
  milan ciric
  netherlands

• Saturday November 23, 2002 at 8:33 pm
  

  The documentary 'Milosevic - How to be a Dictator' premiered at the International Documentary Festival Amsterdam - IDFA today.

  The 80 mins movie by Leslie Woodhead focusses on Milosevic's strangle-hold on RTS television, his manipulations of other media and the influence of Mira Markovic on his wheelings and dealings.

  Three years ago Woodhead's award-winning documentary on the Srebrenica massacre 'Cry from the Grave' saw its first screening at the IDFA. The program was broadcast by over 100 television stations world-wide; a wide-screen film edition made a tour of cinemas in Bosnia and Croatia.

  An interview with Woodhead and some clips from the documentary are available in RealVideo format on Domovina Net. Audio is in Dutch (narration), English (interview) and Serbian (archive footage).

  Milosevic - How to be a Dictator' is expected to air on BBC and other TV stations early next year.

  
  
  Frank Tiggelaar
  Amsterdam
  Holland

• Saturday November 23, 2002 at 9:43 pm
  Oh Goody! Leslie Woodhead is at it again, she must have gotten some more money from George Soros.

  Manipulating the media is certainly nothing George Soros would try. Soros and USAID give all of that money to B-92/ANEM out of the goodness of their hearts and expect nothing in return.

  
  
  Andy Wilcoxson
  Washington, United States

• Saturday November 23, 2002 at 9:51 pm
  Frank, do your masters think that the amount of spittle was insufficient through all these years? I'm sure that they do, otherwise you wouldn't post this ridiculous propaganda ad here. Whom are you trying to convince? Us who lived under this "dictator"? You don't know the first thing about life in YU, and I dare say neither Woodhead ("the influence of Mira Markovic on his wheelings and dealings"?! This is pathetic! Compare this to NATO bombing of my raped country.)

  But, why do I try explaining anything to you? I just recommend you to go and see this fantastic work of art yourself and enjoy it thoroughly. And then go home and pray to keep your mind small. It is so much easier not to see a big picture.
  
  Vera Martinovic
  Belgrade
  Yugoslavia

• Sunday November 24, 2002 at 12:17 am
  Vera,there is more.When the Boy made a mistake and asked C61 about Milan Babic, Bruce Lee immediately jumped in--you think Milan Martic!
  
  milan masic
  serbia

• Sunday November 24, 2002 at 3:56 am
  Milan Babic was the dentist who took over the Krajina movement from Jovan Raskovic, the psychiatrist. Babic was the one who got along the least with Milosevic, though from a more radical perspective. He was against the compromise of the Vance Plan and was removed from the presidency of the Krajina as a result. He also ran in a presidential election in 1994 against Milan Martic and after round one had about 49% of the vote and was way ahead of Martic. Somehow, he lost round two! Babic ended up as prime minister of the Krajina in 1995, replacing Borislav Mikelic. His appointment was considered an example of the Krajina's moving away from Milosevic and towards Karadzic just before August 1995.

  Babic is the one who was most hostile towards Milosevic, probably blaming him for removing him from the presidency, for stealing him an election, and for selling out the Krajina. Any treasonous testimony of this kind can only be out of spite and hatred for Milosevic.
  
  R. B.
  Canada

• Sunday November 24, 2002 at 4:01 am
  Babic could be seen as someone who saw himself as leading an independent Krajina as opposed to other Krajina leaders regarded by him as stooges of Milosevic. Someone who could want revenge against Milosevic for his interference and for his alleged sell out of Krajina. Thus, he is a likely suspect of being C-061.
  
  R. B.
  Canada

• Sunday November 24, 2002 at 10:10 am
  

  Andy: a few corrections:

  1) Leslie Woodhead is a 'he', not a 'she'

  2) The production of 'Milosevic - How to be a Dictator' was funded by a host of media, including the BBC and Dutch NOS, not by Soros.

  3) Soros pays for the few outlets which offer integral coverage of all trials at the ICTY - among them Domovina Net's Tribunal Live/Bard's archives/FreeSerbia's coverage. Please let me know if any of the above ever asked you for 'anything in return' so I can act.

  
  

  Vera: to see a big picture:

  1) Domovina Net has offered live and archived 24*7 RTS television on Internet during the past 2 1/2 years.

  2) Domovina Net has offered RTS's daily evening Dnevnik on Internet for two years prior to the station being banned from satellite by the EU.

  3) I was in Belgrade three times in the past year alone (and also several times in BiH, HR and FYROM).

  We hold different opinions but your claim that I'm uninformed is baseless.

  A transcript in English of the Dutch TV program I announced yesterday is now also available. No need to credit Soros with it, the 2Vandaag news show is 50/50 financed by commercial messages and Dutch tax-payers' Euro's.

  
  
  Frank Tiggelaar
  Amsterdam
  Holland

• Sunday November 24, 2002 at 11:12 am
  

  Frank,

  The person in charge of Bard's College tapes told me back in March he wished they were the recipient of Sorros largesse, since according to him they were not and their budget was on a shoe string.

  Sorros's trial in Paris I wonder if it would also be transmitted direct by Bard College. Cherged as he is with "finacial intrigues" it should be interesting to follow, to follow the money trail, you never know.
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Conn. USA

• Sunday November 24, 2002 at 11:51 am
  "Milosevic given wrong medication"Immediate question is who is responsiblefor inmates health?How Milosevic could be given wrong medication?Is there "conspiracy" for a honorauble way outof ICTY disaster?Earlier this year it was announced by ICTY that ICTY would prosecute "only major criminals"thus allowing national courts to prosecute others.Apperently ICTY should terminate shortly for various reasons.Is the "Trial of Milosevic" an embarisment for prosecution?Is it "better that Milosevic" passes avay of "natural couses"prior to conclussion of trial?
  
  Carla Berg
  Salzburg
  Austria

• Sunday November 24, 2002 at 1:25 pm
  

  Frank,
  
  You make my case even better than I do.
  
  Mr. Woodhead (sorry for referring to him a woman last time) has received money from Soros in the past. "A Cry From the Grave" was financed by Soros, both Mr. Woodhead and his movie appear on theSoros Documentary Fund website.

  But since 2 state-broadcasters in 2 NATO countries (BBC - Britain  and NOS - Netherlands) are funding this film instead of Soros, who at least has a measure of deniability. There can be no question that this film is anything other than NATO propaganda.

  Follow the money. Don't be naive, propaganda is something everybody does. Sure Serbia did it under Milosevic and they still do it now, Germany, Britain, the United States all do it too. It's just something governments do.

  Propaganda is designed to influence and manipulate, it isn't designed to inform. Consider this example from the United States, 60% of Americans strongly support invading Iraq, but80% can't find Iraq on a map.

  American school children aren't being taught anything about the world around them. I live by the US/Canada border and I saw a poll in a Canadian newspaper that said that 1 out of every 3 American's don't even know that the United States borders Canada!

  Why is it that American's have such strong opinions, but are so completely and thoroughly uninformed? The answer is that they are fed propaganda 24 hours a day and 7 days a week by CNN, FOX News, and MSNBC.

  The American media is nothing more than an "echo chamber" for the American government. They report like lemmings everything the government says. "State Department spokesman says...", "President Bush said in a speech yesterday...", etc...

  American's aren't stupid they're good intelligent people. Americans are just brainwashed by propaganda. Propaganda is done by ALL governments some more effectively than others. The United States probably has the most sophisticated propaganda apparatus in the world. Milosevic's government had a propaganda apparatus too but it wasn't especially effective or sophisticated. Milosevic didn't have anything like the US/Soros-funded the propaganda machine of Zoran Djindjic and Veran Matic.

  I don't think that any rational person could seriously consider Milosevic to have been a dictator. A dictator has absolute and unchallenged power. Slobodan Milosevic never had absolute power, and most of the time that he was in office he required a coalition government. Furthermore, he was constantly challenged by the Serbian opposition media. I've seen the Serbian media reports and, both him and his family were constantly being smeared by the opposition press.

  If part of your film says that Milosevic was being pushed around by his wife that would prove that he wasn't a dictator wouldn't it? If that was true then he didn't even have absolute power over his own house, let alone the whole country.

  If the movie says that he was a dictator because his government disseminated propaganda, then God help us all. We're all living under dictatorships.

  
  
  Andy Wilcoxson
  Washington, United States

• Sunday November 24, 2002 at 3:35 pm
  C-61 testified that he held some meeting with Milosevic and Karadzic in July 1991. Karadzic's Krajina counterpart at that time was Milan Babic. However, if this is Babic, his claims of evil goings on in the Krajina during this time should be self-incriminating and perhaps he should be on trial also. He has been making serious allegations of wrongdoings under Babic's very own presidency. Thus, this suggests the possibility that Babic, as well as a revenge motive, has also been pressured and threatened into testifying, perhaps threatened into lying on the stand.
  
  R. B.
  Canada

• Sunday November 24, 2002 at 3:49 pm
  

  C-61 is testifying with his own defence lawyer present and he is a defendant and in another case: his!

  I can't wait to see Mr. Milosevic breaking his testitmony to pieces in little time and yet the ICTY schedule for this week has his trial for only two days, Monday and Tuesday . . .

  Vacation time yet, or something more ominous?
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  USA

• Sunday November 24, 2002 at 4:17 pm
  

  Regarding the latest test, the psychiatric test I just came across a comment about the way dissent was treated in totalitarian regimes: as mental illness.

  Some article, the type pf article which is pure propaganda said it is clear that since Mr. Milosevic has shown no sign of remorse for his crimes, he must be mad. The article does not mention the psychiatric test ordered by judge May (NATO).

  As the French say : Le plus ça change le plus c'est la même chose
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Conn. USA

• Sunday November 24, 2002 at 7:22 pm
  I translated the NRC article linked to by Andy:The Hague, november, 23. In the Scheveningen prison Slobodan Milosevic was given the wrong medicine, causing his blood pressure to rise very quickly. This was why at the beginning of this month the trial against the former president of Yougoslavia was suspended. Sources within the tribunal have confirmed this. A spokesman of the Tribunal denies that mistakes have been made. He refuses to further discuss the issue. "This is about the privacy of the defendant."It was the fifth time the trial had to be suspended because of Milosevic' illness. Judge Richard May of the ICTY as a result had two new medical investigations ordered. Last monday Milosevic was examined by the cardiologist P. Dijkman and by P. Falke, the doctor of the Scheveningen prison. Apart from that the judges want a psychiatrical report to be produced within a week. 61 year old Milosevic, who is defending himself, suffers from heart troubles and exhaustion. In a previous report Falke observed a 'mental overload' in Milosevic.Because of his bad health the trial is seriously delayed. On the basis of the new reports judge May wants to decide about the further proceedings of the trial. The tribunal could decide to assign a lawyer to Milosevic. Until now Milosevic has strongly resisted this. The trial has been resumed this week.The 'amici curiae' Steven Kay and Branislav Tapuskovic have pleaded to suspend the trial for one year. During this time Milosevic could improve his health, say the 'friends of the court', who have to supervise a fair trial. Prosecutor Carla del Ponte was furious when she heard about this. According to her Milosevic receives all the medical care he needs in the Scheveningen prison.The International Comitee for the Defense of Slobodan Milosevic (ICDSM) has sent a letter to the ICTY this week, in which the comitee demands an independent medical examination. The former president should be examined by the medical specialists of the military medical academy in Belgrade, who have taken care of his health for years.
  
  R M
  Amsterdam

• Sunday November 24, 2002 at 9:44 pm
  RM, THANKS!!!
  
  Andy Wilcoxson
  Washington, United States

• Sunday November 24, 2002 at 10:03 pm
  Frank, visiting few Belgrade hotels and selected offices doesn't make you informed of the country, I'm sorry. ICTY Belgrade Office entourage tends to be one-sided, wouldn't you agree? Some harsher critics might even call them quislings or the "fifth column". I wouldn't go that far; I'll just say they needed a job. So, don't take for granted everything you hear from them.

  Let's both agree on something: I'll admit you're an unbiased, clear-thinking and clear-conscience Westerner after you're able to post here an ad going like this:

  The documentary - 'Blair - How to be a Dictator' [insert the name of your choice: Clinton, Genscher, Chirac…] premiered at the International Documentary Festival Amsterdam today. The 80 mins movie by Johnnie Bonehead focuses on Blair's strangle-hold on BBC television, his manipulations of other media and the influence of Cherie Blair on his wheelings and dealings…" etc. etc. Sounds a little weird? Not more than the version you gave.

  The big picture isn't about showing RTS on your site; it is about understanding the sequence of events leading to the present situation: the demolition of a country from without by supporting/arming/financing/prematurely recognizing secession, in a word - fomenting wars, finally - bombing, and then stand by and preach and act appaled. Your refusal to see it and instead your dealing with isolated, out-of-context events like they happened in a vacuum just show your bias.

  I'm only sorry these schemes that destroyed my country brought people like you here. No, we don't hold different opinions, because I don't see any opinion behind your posts, just the repetition of the mainstream media headlines.
  
  Vera Martinovic
  Belgrade
  Yugoslavia