 MILOSEVIC TRIAL DISCUSSION ARCHIVE |
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Former Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic is on trial for war crimes in the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia at The Hague. This marks the first time a head of state has been personally prosecuted before an international criminal court.
Is Slobodan Milosevic getting a fair trial?
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- discussion archive
- Saturday October 04, 2003 at 4:37 am
Letter from the DumaTO THE MINISTER OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS OF THE RUSSIAN FEDERATION
I. S. IVANOV
Dear Igor Sergeyevich,
Already for nearly two years in The Hague a trial is being held against the former President of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, Slobodan Milosevic. In all that time, its extremely expensive efforts notwithstanding, the Prosecution of the International Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia has failed to produce convincing evidence of guilt of the Serbian leader for the crimes attributed to him.
The Prosecution’s case, following a court ruling, should be concluded by the end of 2003 or by the beginning of 2004. After that, the case for the Defendant should begin. As we all know, until now Slobodan Milosevic had the possibility only to participate in the examination of the witnesses for the Prosecution. As far as we know, he intends to present to the Tribunal exceptionally compelling proof of his innocence. However, mounting a defence takes systematic preparations.
The Indictment against Slobodan Milosevic was being prepared for more than four years with the participation of hundreds of the Tribunal’s officials. And Slobodan Milosevic is self-represented. He is entitled to be allotted as much preparation time for his defence as the Tribunal’s Prosecution had to prepare its Indictment. As we all know, the Defendant’s right to have adequate time and necessary conditions for the preparation of his defence is provided for in many international documents, including the European Convention on Human Rights.
The equality of arms between defendants and prosecutors is one of the basic norms of the international law. The violation of that right would serve as a confirmation of numerous allegations that under the mask of a trial at The Hague the political settling up with Slobodan Milosevic is in fact being carried out. At the same time, the persecution of his family is taking place, with the purpose of deepening his isolation.
In this regard, our deep concern has arisen from the recent ruling of the Tribunal to ban visits to Slobodan Milosevic by the representatives of the Socialist Party of Serbia, whose President he is, as well as by the SLOBODA Association, which supports him. We see this ruling as a dangerous act of moral and psychological pressure against a political prisoner and as the additional abridgement of his rights.
In order to make his defence effective (in the sense of gathering documents, communication with witnesses and with his legal assistants), Slobodan Milosevic has to have the possibility to defend himself not from a prison but from freedom. At the same time, he needs to be restored to health, which has been undermined by the prolonged custody and gruelling court proceedings.
In view of certain moral obligations, taken on by the Russian part at the time of well-known events of October 2000, we believe that as a minimum Russia is obligated to make sure that time is allotted and conditions secured to the former President of the friendly Federal Republic of Yugoslavia for an effective defence, as provided for by the international law.
The settling up with Milosevic and his colleagues creates a precedent for analogous actions against the heads of other states, Russia included. As we all know, the preparations for such actions are already under way.
We ask you to make necessary efforts in order to contribute for a purpose of securing the equality of arms in the court proceedings. In view of the scope of the charges (covering multi-year conflicts in Kosovo, Bosnia and Croatia), the trial has to be interrupted for at least two years. Such a solution is fully in compliance with the norms of the international law.
At the same time, in accordance with the principle of the presumption of innocence, Slobodan Milosevic has to be released, which would give him the possibility to get prepared more fully for his defence. Our presupposition is that the international community has the interest to establish all the circumstances related to the aforesaid conflicts. The documents and witnesses that Slobodan Milosevic intends to present could help establishing the truth about the events in Yugoslavia in 1990s.
We also believe that he has to be given the possibility of his returning to Belgrade in order to be given a qualified medical care by his physicians who treated him for many years.
DEPUTIES OF THE STATE DUMA
(LOWER HOUSE OF PARLIAMENT):
Followed by 22 signatures of the deputies representing the absolute majority within Duma, among them the Caucus Chairmen Zyuganov (KPRF - Communist Party of the Russian Federation), Kharitonov (Agroindustrial Faction), Raykov (People’s Deputy Faction - a centrist, pro-presidential faction); the Deputy Speaker of the Duma Romanov; the State Duma Committee Chairmen: General Nikolaev (Defence Committee), Rizhkov (Committee for Yugoslavia), Nikitin (National Debt Committee); as well as the Deputy Chairmen of the Committees on Foreign Affairs, on Security Affairs, on CIS (Commonwealth of Independent States) Affairs and Compatriots, on Defence, on Environment, on Culture, on Energy, on Capital Construction.
visit: http://www.sloboda.org.yu/
(SLOBODA/Freedom association)
(undated letter relayed as received by)
Godfred Louis-Jensen
Copenhagen
D E N M A R K - Saturday October 04, 2003 at 10:47 am
Dont you people at EC and IAC understand? People are not interested in machinations and various goings on with power struggles / tape recordings / who said what to whom and so on.It seems to me that this isnt actually about one side really being agents or something. Its blatant politics. People who want to have the widest possible forum to impress their own political views on others.
I have news to those people. We are not impressed. I can hardly wait for the trial to start up again so we can put this ongoing disunity behind us. However I dont expect the battle for control of ICDSM will stop anytime soon.
I feel depressed about that and I dont believe Im the only one.
Alf Bentley
UK - Saturday October 04, 2003 at 11:29 am
Amen Alf Bentley
Dakic Ana
Serbia - Saturday October 04, 2003 at 12:02 pm
Well I'm sure not impressed with someone who affects to care about the fate of SM saying they "can hardly wait for the trial to start up again" since that runs directly counter to President Milosevic's interests and expressed wishes, and is why he and the committee who actually supports him (through words, deeds and funds, rather than through idle blogs at Jurist)have minimally demanded a stay in proceedings for urgent medical treatment and convalescence and a two-year period for preparing his defence. And we know of these developments in the trial and SM's support campaign thanks to Vlada and ICDSM and www.icdsm.org, and no thanks at all to the Emperor on Whom the Sun Never Sets.Perhaps that's b/c for SM and his actual supporters, this isn't about entertainment - like a rugby or football match where's we're waiting for the dreary half-time commercials to end so Arsenal or Notre Dame can kick butt - but about a political prisoner and the movement attached to him, and the fate of both. Perhaps that makes the case for following facts and examining events, rather than just piously pronouncing a plague on everyone's houses, aggressor and victim.
P WP
Bas Canada - Saturday October 04, 2003 at 12:09 pm
Jared Israel: Listen Vlada, I'm sorry if I put you in an awkward position. I think it's obvious that we're not trying to put you in an awkward position. Not in the least. We're not trying to do that in least. It's disruptive.
A O
Canada - Saturday October 04, 2003 at 12:12 pm
"For a few minutes I forgot to turn on the tape recorder."
A O
Canada - Saturday October 04, 2003 at 12:18 pm
Just rings with sincerity don't it A O? But that's not my favourite Jared quote, though it's certainly hall of fame candidate material from Boston Blimpy. Here's my personal fave quote from Jared:"The assassination of Martin Luther King was a great step forward in the liberation struggle of Black people."
J. Edgar Hoover couldn't have said it better.
P WP
Bas Canada - Saturday October 04, 2003 at 12:24 pm
"For a few minutes I forgot to turn on the tape recorder."come to think of it, J. Edgar couldn't have said that much better either.
P WP
Bas Canada - Saturday October 04, 2003 at 12:40 pm
The liar who hides behind the initials PWP returns for more slanders - since of course the record of my and Krsljanin's conversation proves Nico Varkveisser and I have been telling the truth.
It is an insane lie to say that I think the murder of King helped Black people - obviously it set the stage for the destruction of the Civil Rights movement, in which I participated.
Regarding J. Edgar Hoover and Martin Luther King - an unfortunate choice for a smear.
It was not I but US Attorney General Ramsey Clark who put J. Edgar Hoover, the main suspect for the behind-the-scenes mover in that assassination, in charge of the investigation. Clark's role was so bad he was later criticized by a Congressional committee that invewstigated the assassination. Here is a news report on that subject:
The Associated Press
November 28, 1978, AM cycle LENGTH: 566 words BYLINE: By MIKE SHANAHAN, Associated Press Writer DATELINE: WASHINGTONFormer Attorney General Ramsey Clark said Tuesday the Justice Department did not take control of the investigation of Martin Luther King's assassination because it would have worsened relations between him and J. Edgar Hoover.
He said that although there was a "quality of racism" in the late FBI director's attitude toward the civil rights leader, the FBI investigation of the killing was vigorous and thorough.
"The FBI's reputation was on the line," Clark said. "Failure to perform would have had profound impact on public confidence in the FBI."
Clark acknowledged that except for making suggestions and keeping himself informed, he gave the FBI a free hand in setting the direction of the investigation.
He testified before the House Assassinations Committee which has criticized both the FBI and Justice Department, saying they failed to investigate adequately the possibility of a conspiracy in the April 4, 1968, assassination of King.
Jared Israel
USA - Saturday October 04, 2003 at 12:45 pm
Dear Ms. Laios,
You raise three points/questions which deserve an answer.
First you say the ICDSM is a large organization. Until the recent coup d’etat in ICDSM, nobody tried to create this false impression. Now a flurry of statements have been issued, signed by imaginary national committees, which exist only on paper, Hollywood facades. This tactic - of doing organizational things to prove you are politically powerful so you can get publicity or defeat an opponent, is typical of left wing sects like Ramsey Clark's IAC. More on the relevance of the ICDSM's smallness later.
Second, you say, "I think the man Krsljanin is right. The ICDSM is not there to implement the will of Milosevic. I can't imagine that he wants to run the association anyway. It is supposed to support him!"
Of course, one could form a committee to support Milosevic which was entirely independent of the man. But when Krsljanin asked me to help him organize the ICDSM in the spring of 2001, he presented it to me - and he and I subsequently presented it to everyone else - as a committee which *did* carry out Milosevic's will. When Krsljanin asked me to contact Ramsey Clark to be co-Chairman, I strongly objected. Krsljanin answered *not* that I was wrong but that this was Milosevic's decision. So I had a choice of going along with a decision I considered very dangerous, or dropping out of this work, which I considered very important.
Similarly, when Andy Wilcoxson wrote to Krsljanin in January 2003, saying he thought Ramsey Clark was working for the US government, Krsljanin wrote back to Andy:
Dear Andy,
”thank you very much for the warning. Of course we know even more than you wrote. And we are and will be cautious. President [Milosevic] information (this is what we particularly care about) so that he can make responsible decisions”. [Krsljanin’s comments end here]
Please notice the language. Krsljanin does not defend Ramsey Clark. Quite the contrary - he implies that Ramsey is even worse than Andy believes ( which I think is true ). But, he says, Milosevic is the one who must decide. Later, after Milosevic decided to remove Clark, and Krsljanin defied this decision, Andy challenged Krsljanin in an open letter. Andy wrote:
”You know that President Milosevic personally made the decision to remove Ramsey Clark from the post of ICDSM co-president…. Or is it your claim that President Milosevic suddenly changed his mind?” [Andy Wilcoxson’s comments end here]
Krsljanin did not answer Andy except to publicly accuse him - and me and Varkevisser - of Gangsterism and being agents of NATO, and to say that criticizing Clark is grounds for expulsionf rom ICDSM! But Krsljanin’s close associate Chris Black did answer Andy. Black wrote:
”…The position of President Milosevic has been clear and consistent since the beginning. There cannot be any public criticism of Ramsey Clark. That is his position as expressed to the meeting of the ICDSM at Scheveningen, Holland at the end of June last and it was his position when I met with him. His postion re Ramsey Clark has been consistent throughout. He is to remain and public criticism of him or of any other committee members is to cease.” [[Black’s comments end here]
Notice that Black does *not* say, "We are independent of Milosevic". Quite the opposite, he accepts Andy's assumption that Milosevic has the right to decide issues about the Committee -including the composition of its leadership - but claims that Milosevic took the exact opposite position.So: either Clark is lying or we are lying.
You express sympathy for Krsljanin. But Mr. Krsljanin did not get upset in the phone discussion with me on May 30th because I was rude to him. I was *not* rude. Just listen to the tape . Krsljanin got upset because he had been trapped in his own deceit. And when Krsljanin gets upset he loses his cool. That is why he mistakenly blurted out the truth.
Never before had Krsljanin said to me that the Committee should *not* follow Milosevic’s will. Quite the opposite - he always claimed that Milosevic had agreed with whatever Krsljanin told us to do. But now he was trapped in an impossible situation. We *knew* that Milosevic had told Krsljanin to get rid of Clark. Krsljanin had placated me and Varkevisser earlier that day, promising to act on Milosevic's decision to remove Clark. The truth is, Krsljanin had *never* planned to carry out that decision. But then I sent the email telling Clark he was out. Krsljanin was caught between a rock and a hard place - and blurted the truth: Milosevic is for him a symbol to be used for other purposes. Notice that Krsljanin was not in the least upsetthat he was defying Milosevic. Rather, he was terribly upset - hence the stomach pains - about *seeming* to defy or double-cross Clark because the email I sent was signed by him! He did *not* say, "the important thing is to help Milosevic." He said:
"Vladimir Krsljanin: The most important thing is Ramsey Clark and most important thing is that [so] soon we appear[ed in that email sent to Clark via John Catalinotto] with our three signatures together. I mean, ohhhhhhhhhhh -" [Krsljanin’s comments end here]
Now as to *why* Varkevisser and I (and Andy Wilcoxson, and Colin Meade and others) are opposed to having "the important thing" in the Milosevic support committee be Ramsey Clark - that has to do with two things. Ramsey Clark's previous actions, when he was active in supposedly helping Milosevic from July-Nov. 2001, and Ramsey Clark's attempt to link Milosevic to Islamist terrorism . I will not try to explain all that here, but Nico Varkevisser and I will post a piece providing evidence that Ramsey Clark carried out the Tribunal's agenda when he "helped" Milosevic in the summer-fall of 2001. Then you may judge for yourself whether we have made our case. (We acted in an honorable way concerning Ramsey Clark, giving him the benefit of the doubt, organizing a press conference for him in August 2001 and handling all his arrangements when he was at The Hague. It was Clark's *actions* that convinced us that I had been right in not wanting him to be co-Chairman!)
One final point. You said the ICDSM is large. In the West, the ICDSM *cannot* be large. Why? Because Milosevic has been successfully demonized. Krsljanin wants the ICDSM to be a vehicle for left wing sects. Varkevisser and I and Milosevic want it to be a work organization devoted to combating lies about Yugoslavia and Milosevic and to publicizing Milosevic's work in The Hague. We want it to solicit the help of the Serbian Diaspora, a functional impossibility if it is linked to these weird sects and red-brown types like Ramsey Clark.
You asked, why is it important to listen to this tape? . Shouldn‘t you have raised a similar question when tens of thousands of words were written on this list slandering me and my associates? You publicly object to us defending ourselves, but not to the slanders against us! But I will answer you. It is important because it shows that Krsljanin, Black and their allies have been lying about what happened in the ICDSM. And this is important if one thinks the support work for Milosevic - that is, for the Serbian people - is important. And it is important because the accusation that we are liars, agents of NATO, or whatever, is being made now precisely because an effort is also being made - now - to put forces allied with the Islamists who attacked the Serbs in charge of the public defense of Milosevic. And therefore they want to discredit Emperor’s Clothes, which has been the main non-Serbian voice defending the Serbian people in the West. That is, they want to discredit us because we won’t play the game of betraying our principles. That makes those who *have* betrayed all decency despise us.
Jared Israel
Jared Israel
USA- Saturday October 04, 2003 at 3:41 pm
Your sentiment is not far from my Pantelija and I know some of the cases you talking about.But I should say this, there was a lot of talk about masons during 90's in Serbia particularly by Seselj party but not just them. Some people understood which people masons are referring about as jews. There were groups of skinheads with Seselj as well and yes they were anti semetic, anti gay, anti roma.
Seselj also made publishing of Elders in his newspaper. But so what because the book was on sale in bookshops. If somebody was to blame it was government of Milosevic to let this book be available to buy in first place. To publish for free what is available in shops is not a crime.
Fascist ideology in Radical Party program I did not see. I did not examine the program well but there are not fascist or nazi policys but I could be wrong.
In my opinion Seselj used opportunity that was given to him to try to get support on very right wing. It was the government of Milosevic in this period to decide to prosecute or close him down. They did not do this because he was useful every time support went down for Milosevic he could make coalition with Seselj.
People always look for answer (either Hague or angry Serbs, Croats, Muslums) by saying it was this ideology, that ethnic cleaning, this greater Serbia that caused something.
It was not about that in Serbia. Every tactic used by leaders was just to get to a position of power. There were no nazis, no communists, no democrats, no opposition, (even if I supported the opposition), no greater Serbia. It was all bull. All you have is people who want to sit in power. I suppose it is the same in every country and when you have war you have people on very right wing, you have anti semetism, primativism and so on.
Check what fascism means as theory and I think you will see that Seselj wasnt really fascist but using some tactics that fascist uses. Not same thing.
Alf, Ana I also wish that these guys would cool down little bit.
Arandjel Pasic
Yug- Saturday October 04, 2003 at 4:24 pm
Ramsey Clark Poses as Milosevic's Lawyer and then Smears the "Client" on Nationwide U.S. Television Tammy Lydel: Salon Magazine called you "the war criminal's best friend." Why have you represented the war criminals like Milosevic? Ramsey Clark: Why would I? Tammy Lydel: m-hmmm. Ramsey Clark: Well the real reason is I'm a lawyer.
1 2
Canada- Saturday October 04, 2003 at 4:26 pm
"Exhibit A"
1 2
Canada- Saturday October 04, 2003 at 4:39 pm
"And finally Krsljanin called me, waking me as well.""I was sleeping at my desk when awakened by Krsljanin’s phone call."
[At this point a phone call to Jared interrupts the conversation]
Jared Israel: Well now we've disrupted both [our lives] because that's my girlfriend who I can't talk to.
1 2
Canada- Sunday October 05, 2003 at 5:59 am
Its pretty damn obvious that this PWP character is making up extra identities.You Clark supporting moron! Only Israel and Wilcoxson really support Milosevic.
rupert smith
US- Sunday October 05, 2003 at 7:33 am
Andy and Jared,It should be obvious by now that this forum is infested with a number of trolls, morons and Oprah watching dipshits.
While somewhat aggravating these later two groups are a harmless distractions. One group could not follow an arguement such as this and the other simply isn't interested in it for lack of soap opera appeal. Perhaps if there was an evil twin or some allegations of sexual deviancy they would perk up a bit, but alas until then they will find this discussion irrelevant.
The trolls however are a nasty bunch. They obviously have an agenda and are not going to cry uncle any time soon. Convincing them of what they already know is an act of futility. However for those of us who understand that this debate is of the utmost importance, we (or at least I) certainly appreciate the clearity that you have brought to the situation.
I suggest you ignore those who don't grasp the significance of this struggle, overwhelm the trolls with facts, and let those who may have simply been misguided look to their own hearts for the strength to admit it and apologize for their unwarranted attacks.
Remember that there are those of us who follow these revelations closely although we don't often have time nor see the need to post.
Best regards to the both of you and those who are united in this cause.
Joel Aksamit
USA- Sunday October 05, 2003 at 8:48 am
Ramsey Clark Poses as Milosevic's Lawyer and then Smears the "Client" on Nationwide U.S. TelevisionTammy Lydel: Salon Magazine called you "the war criminal's best friend." Why have you represented the war criminals like Milosevic?
Ramsey Clark: Why would I?
Tammy Lydel: m-hmmm.
Ramsey Clark: Well the real reason is I'm a lawyer.
Exhibit A
1 2
Canada- Sunday October 05, 2003 at 8:55 am
"At the same time, Krsljanin and his associates have vilified us and Emperors Clothes using mass email, website discussion groups and print publications."
1 2
Canada- Sunday October 05, 2003 at 9:07 am
"Only Israel and Wilcoxson really support Milosevic."
1 2
Canada- Sunday October 05, 2003 at 9:57 am
Well those 'revelations' are completely pathetic. How pompous of the infantile Emp Clothes crowd to call their excuse for research 'investigative journalism'.All they are attempting to do is smear those that dont agree with their pro zionist stance and lable anyone who steps outside of this some kind of collaborator of the new order. They make me want to puke.
Jihad Israel should go on a diet before he starts pointing fingers.
2 4
Canada- Sunday October 05, 2003 at 10:30 am
Joel Askamit - no you will not get away with that. Explain what you mean by 'some arent interested in this because of lack of soap opera appeal.'?Precisely the opposite my intellectualy compromised friend. I think this power struggle appeals to those who like soap operas because it features the same rubbish. Somebody said this / did that. Tape recordings / agents for the government. Insults, accusations and counter accusations. Pathetic hysterical comments, things taken out of context. If some of us dont want to hear this trash then there is something wrong with us? NO WAY.
I am livid with this childishness. I urge everybody visiting the Jurist site to state their opinions on the matter.
It must be made clear to these people with their agenda that 'those of us who dont grasp the significance' of two groups vying for control of ICDSM do not give a damn about their petty squabbles. We are here for other reasons.
We object to the trial for a number of reasons. That is the thing that unifies us.
People they are trying to manipulate us. Beware of those who tell us to ignore others. What they really mean is only listen to one point of view.
N Stamford
Euroland- Sunday October 05, 2003 at 11:11 am
Watch and judge: HERE
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La- Sunday October 05, 2003 at 12:58 pm
There are not *two groups vying for control* of the ICDSM. Rather, an effort that began in the late 1980s to a) demonize the Serbian people and b) sabotage their resistance is continuing in a new form - by putting pro-Islamist forces in control of Milosevic's public image. We have been attacked and supposedly expelled from ICDSM - a tiny group for which Nico Varkevisser and I had done probably most of the work - because we resisted this latest attack on the Serbs.p>
We produced our Ramsey Clark articles because Clark went on TV and demonized the Serbs by linking Milosevic to Clark's support for Islamic terrorists. Clark aided anti-Serb demonization from the vantage point of claiming to be Milosevic’s attorney.
Then Milosevic removed Clark and in response to that, the pro-Clark forces went into high gear. The vicious attacks launched against me and others, with lies of every kind, was made not because two sides are in a power play, or for personal reasons. Until the very end Varkevisser and I labored under a mistaken affection for Mr. Krsljanin, who can be quite charming.
The attacks were launched because Nico Varkevisser and I sent that email discussed in the tape of my conversation with Krsljanin. By informing Clark that he was removed, we showed we would not stop being an obstacle to the attempt to put pro-Islamists in control of the public face of Milosevic's defense.
“N. Stamford,” if that is a real name, says the MP3 audio file of me and Krsljanin talking is like a soap opera. But “N. Stamford” never objected to the mountain of slanders penned by Chris Black and “PWP” and others, including the latest hideous lie, that I, who took part in the Civil Rights movement, including one Freedom Ride, ever said “"The assassination of Martin Luther King was a great step forward in the liberation struggle of Black people.” The point of such truly filthy lies is to create a record of slander on the Internet.
We did not publish the audio file as part of a power play. We published it because it shows we were telling the truth about the attempt of the pro-Clark forces to take over the ICDSM.
It is crucial that people know we have been telling the truth so that they will take our warning seriously: if the Clark/Verges people win, the attempt to tell the truth about the Serbs will be dealt a mortal blow.
Chris Black already got caught lying in one of his slanders of me and had to admit it. But the audio file of me and Krsljanin eposes a much more important set of lies. It shows that a) Milosevic did indeed ask us to remove Ramsey Clark; it shows that Mr. Krsljanin had no intention of doing what Milosevic asked; it shows that Krsljanin felt Ramsey Clark is "the most important thing"; it shows that he is under direct control of the weird and dangerous Workers World sect, which many, including the Greek Left, think is a creation of US intelligence. It shows that Krsljanin was frightened. Listen to the tape. You can hear it.
Of *what* was Krsljanin frightened? Certainly not of me. He was afraid of the reaction of - who? Somebody who might learn of this email informing Clark he was removed, with Krsljanin’s name on it. Who might view Krsljanin’s signature as evidence of a double-crossed. Of whom?
This is not a game! The stakes are immense. President Milosevic is vastly influential in the Slavic world. If the public face of his defense - the part seen by people - can be taken over by pro-Islamists and/or forces linked to anti-Semitism - like Clark’s people and Verges and his supporters, such as the neo-Fascist Luc Michel of the “Francophone ICDSM”, a disciple of the late Mr. Thiriart, a convicted Nazi quisling - if the campaign is controlled by such people it a) makes combating anti-Serb lies nearly impossible in the West and b) sends a message endorsing anti-Semitism and Islamism to the Slavic and Muslim East.People talk about NATO. That is eactly what NATO wants!
The idea that we - TENC - is hungry for power is ludicrous. If we relied on contributions received from our work defending the Serbs we’d starve. The coroner’s report would say: Cause of death - poverty due to Yugoslavia. We don’t assist the Serbs for gain. We do it because they have twice stood up to monsters trying to take over the world. *ALL* of us who loathe fascism are in the Serbs’ debt.
We are doing this because we are obsessed with exposing lies and because we love the Serbs because they stood up to Hitler and NATO, resisting fascism. We will *not* shut up while Ramsey Clark puts Milosevic in a category with Sheikh Rahman and that maniac anti-Semite, Lyndon LaRouche , Clark who says Islam is the hope of the world and smears the Bosnian Serbs as war criminals on CNN.
Jared Israel
USA- Sunday October 05, 2003 at 1:12 pm
The Pillars of Justice: Truth and ImpartialityClinton and his officials Cohen, Albright, Rubin, Clark along with Britain’s Blair, Cook, and Robertson were Serb bashers all: The Serbs being branded genocidal fascist nationalists were prevented from defending themselves from an Islamic terrorist insurgency which indiscriminately murdered policemen, officials and the citizens of Kosovo.
On Truth: None of the above admits that they supported Islamic terror in Kosovo along with bin Laden and al-Qaeda. Even less do they now apologise and compensate for the massive and destructive war crimes committed while subjecting Serbia to an eleven-week bombardment for not submitting to this terror. The truth is a reign of Islamic terror has now been imposed on Serbia’s province of Kosovo.
On Impartiality: In contrast Israel steals land - the ‘wall’ carving out huge chunks of land from the West Bank territory of the subjugated Palestinians - arbitrarily murders Palestinian representatives in their own territory and even bombs neighbouring sovereign states: With impunity.
So what are the credentials of the leaders of this erstwhile cabal: Clinton was impeached for his failure to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. This is what Cook the then Foreign Minister has to say about Blair:
IN EXCERPTS published in the Sunday Times of London, Cook claims Blair admitted privately that Saddam Hussein did not have weapons that posed a “real and present danger.”
What kind of man is it that lies to his fellow countrymen in order to drum up support to prosecute an illegal war? We must add to the usual answer of ‘Adolf Hitler’.
The Serbs and the Jews have suffered a similar fate during the past one hundred years. During WW2 atrocities perpetrated on the Serbs were identical in kind - at least in the Balkans where most of the victims were Serbs - to those suffered by the Jews. The Serbs were even subjected to a double dose of atrocities: in WW2 and WW1.
There is something sinister about the unequal treatment meted out to the Serbs compared to the Jews: Both being subjected to attacks by militant Islamists. The Serbs are bombarded by the West’s self styled arbiters for combating this terror and the Jews are supported. Milosevic is tortured and Sharon is supported.
It is a macabre fact that so many of the senior perpetrators of this injustice against the Serbian people are themselves Cohen, Albright, Rubin, Clark … it is left for the historians to explain these idiosyncrasies: these acts of treachery, of untruthfulness, of lack of impartiality: Of Injustice.
Peter Taylor
Herts/UK- Sunday October 05, 2003 at 2:18 pm
Ana Dakic
No Serb has to go to testify against Seselj, he gave enough material for the prosecution in Hague with his crazy statements and deed to lock him up for the rest of his life.
You haven't said though that those things I mentioned about him were false. So you would back the worst kind of a person in Serbian politics no matter how much he hurt Serbian cause by his insane acts, just because he presents himself as a "nationalist", which he isn't. Did you, Ana, go to any of his rallys? Would you charakterize him as a patriot or as a total nut case?
Anyway, Ana, you're doing fine yourself by smearing the most popular Serbia's politician on that site "Emperor's Clothes" without any credible evidence. By calling Kostunica a traitor and NATO puppet could you call 2/3 of Serbs who voted for him the same? Would you dare? Are the majority of Serbs traitors and NATO pupets? I don't think so.
I think the EC website did more damage for the Serbs than good, because it just seems like CNN propaganda but on Serbian side. The way it idealizies Milosevic and Serbs in general is just a story for kinder garden children. Mr Israel should realize that Milosevic is not a saint, and that Serbs are not all saints, that we too have scum bags like Seselj for instance. I appreciate Mr. Israel's intentions, but he's doing it the wrong way.
The thing about Milosevic's trial is different than the case with Seselj, it is obvious that this is not a trial for Milosevic but for Serbs in general, as it can be seen from the opening word of the prosecution and throughout the process.
As someone from Bosnia I should know that the story of agression from Serbia is total bullshit, I never saw any troops from Serbia, and we in Krajina were surrounded from all sides from march 1st to 27th june 1992. so it couldn't have been any agression from Serbia, since the majority of Serbian teritories didn't have any contact with Serbia itself. Also the stories about atrocites are greatly exaggerated, for instance Manjaca POW camp was declared a "death camp" by American media, and where are the mass graves on Manjaca then? Well, there aren't any. Or in Prijedor they said Serbs killed 20 000 Muslims, 8 years later 500 bodies have been found in Prijedor, mostly scattered around forests.
How could Milosevic be blamed for every individual murderer on Serbian side? It doesn't make sense, because he didn't run things in Bosnia, and even if he could, how could he stop every person with a rifle to commit a crime?
Pantelija Damjanovic
Bosnia and Herzegovina- Sunday October 05, 2003 at 3:38 pm
Mr. Taylor, I fear you are afflicted with a prejudice that blinds. "The Jews" do not exist as a block..
Last week the leading Israeli Zionist website came out for the Serbs and for releasing Milosevic.
But today on BBC Barak attacked Milosevic as a vicious dictator. And - *but* again - this afternoon, I, also Jewish, am writing an answer to Barak.
So tell me - who are “The Jews”?
Albright? Really? She converted to Catholicism. She *discovered* she was Jewish precisely when that discovery was needed to divide Serbs and Jews. Do you call her Jewish because there is some Jewish essence - even though she bows to the Pope? Prhaps this essence is in your eye. Wesley Clark likewise discovered a Jewish ancestor at the right moment.
Why don’t you “discover” that oh-so-sinister-anomaly of history, that Blaire, and Clinton, and Robin-the-bomber-of-Belgrade-Cooke - or Michael-no-electricty-for-the-refrigerator-Short, or Goerge Baker, or George Bush Senior - descendent of the financiers of the Nazis - are all Protestants? Why don’t you discover that strange fact which some day historians will eplain, that “The French” have betrayed Serbia? This new Empire is not led by one ethnic or relgious group or another. It is led by finance capital and it uses religion and ethnicity as weapons, especially to divide the ordinary people.
As for Jews being coddled, sure they are, that's why the US and Britain are demanding they accept a Palestinian terrorist state on their door step - a demand first raised by Mr. Cheney , under George Senior. That’;s why the CIA has been trainaing the PLO terrorists since at least 1994 - if not earlier. And that's why the European media justifies suicide terror against civilians because "what else can the poor Palestinians do." That’s why, when Prince Naif , in charge of the 911 investigation, so-called, in Saudi Arabai, declared that “The Jews” were behind 9-11 the White House refused - refused! - to refute his remarks.
Yes there are quisling Jewish leaders who have attacked the Serbs. It was in order, in some small way, to negate the harm they have done that I started Emperor's Clothes But "the Jews" are not some unified block. So, it is *also* true that it wasthe head rabbi in Belgrade who condemned with the harshest language the US Jewish leaders who attacked the Serbs And even while some scoundrels among Jews were making anti-Serb attacks, the Israeli government was making deals with the Bosnian Serbs, including supplying arms - and a lot more arms than is publicly admitted. When the US/NATO bombed Serbia, Sharon was attacked by US leaders for making pro-Serb statements. After the bombing, when the US leaders and European leaders (99% gentiles) set up a cordone sanitaire around Serbia, locking it out of using news satellites, it was the Israeli Jews who let RTS use Israel's satellite - until the US came down on them like a ton of bricks.
A key strategy of this new Empire is precisely to divide Serbs and Jews for obvious reasons - to demonize Serbs as the New Nazis and to use the Jews to invoke anti-Semitism, which is now being globalized. If Serbs fall for this anti-Semitism, NATO will rejoice.
Jared Israel
USA- Sunday October 05, 2003 at 5:00 pm
Mr IsraelIf you look back through the archives you will see that I have referred to the fact that some Jews fought alongside the Serbs against Islamic terror in Kosovo. I have also praised your own efforts on behalf of the Serbs in these archives. You did not question my “blinding prejudice” at those times. So you tell me - who are “The Serbs”.
I am at loss to understand your attack. These are all my statements about Jews:
“The Serbs and the Jews have suffered a similar fate …”
“During WW2 atrocities perpetrated on the Serbs were identical in kind - at least in the Balkans where most of the victims were Serbs - to those suffered by the Jews.”
“There is something sinister about the unequal treatment meted out to the Serbs compared to the Jews: Both being subjected to attacks by militant Islamists. The Serbs are bombarded by the West’s self styled arbiters for combating this terror and the Jews are supported.”
How do you infer from these statements that I am afflicted with a blinding prejudice against Jews?
Does your sensitivity betray a hidden agenda which some here have claimed?
I have not claimed that Israel has no right to defend itself against Islamic terror but simply asked why, if this is right for Israel, it is not right for Serbia.
I am very well aware that the Jews are not a block that is why I specifically referred to by name those whose actions I object to and fail to comprehend: namely Secretary for Defence Cohen, Secretary of State Albright, Assistant Rubin and General Clark in the Clinton administration.
In answer to your “Why don’t you …” it is plain for all to see that my comments begin by claiming that Clinton … Blair, Cook and Robertson are ‘sinister’ Serb bashers so I believe your request is misplaced.
Peter Taylor
Herts/UK- Sunday October 05, 2003 at 5:30 pm
Mr Jared Israel,Surely you want a broad support for Milosevic? United we stand and divided we fall. All this public quarrel can only hurt the cause.
You say that Ramsey Clark 'attacked' your friend, but that he would never admit it. So it is a matter of interpretation.
You say you have been accused of lying and you offer this telephone conversation of proof. I just wondered why I should listen to a private conversation that doesn't prove anything to me.
Maybe because I don't understand your quarrels. Who the good guys are and who are the bad guys..
But the fact that you all seem to want to expell and remove eachother seems alarming.
You say:´'By informing Clark that he was removed, we showed we would not stop being an obstacle to the attempt to put pro-Islamists in control of the public face of Milosevic's defense.'
I sincerely do not see why being a pro-islamist would disqualify anybody more than being a pro- or anti- anything else. And what is a pro-islamist anyway? Does Ramsey Clark claim to be one?
If you don't separate the issue of defence for Milosevic from other issues, you exclude a lot of people from supporting your committee.
Ann.-Marie Laios
Sollentuna
Sweden- Sunday October 05, 2003 at 6:26 pm
Pantelia DamjanovicEvery human being has a right, responsibility and obligation to testify about any crime he/she is aware of regardless if the human being is Serbian or not and regardless if the court is Hague or not.
Secondly I have NEVER "... smearing the most popular Serbia's politician on that site "Emperor's Clothes" without any credible evidence. By calling Kostunica a traitor and NATO puppet could you call 2/3 of Serbs who voted for him the same? Would you dare? Are the majority of Serbs traitors and NATO puppets? ... Show me the place where I did it. HOW DARE YOU?
This shows me that a:) you are a liar and b:)you have no clue what you are talking about.
Before you start accusing people be sure you have your fact strait. Only article of mine EVER Jared printed on "Emperor's Clothes" was about papal visit to Bosnia and here is the link to it http://emperors-clothes.com/analysis/pope.htm. However I do agree that Seselj is loud mouth. Does that makes him a war criminal? I have no use for anybody that committed any crime - but I HATE when here say become fact even if it is Seselj. So again get your fact strait and YES do put your foot where your mouth is and become a good witness for prosecutors in Hague. I would not like that Seselj walks when there are people that know about his crimes. BTW have you personalty witnessed any of it or not?
Dakic Ana
Serbia- Sunday October 05, 2003 at 6:45 pm
1) Yes, Ramsey does in practice support Islamic fundemntalist terrorists. For example, as I have said, he did publicity work for the horrific terrorist group, gama'a al islamyaa in Egypt and praised their leader on US TV and his associates helped smuggle Sheikh Rahman's instructions to his terrorist followers when Rahman was jailed. Clark has also boosted nazis. Those are facts.And he has praised his client Sheikh Rahman in the context of a claiming to also be the lawyer for Milosevic.
2) I know this stuff can be confusing, but it was not I who said Ramsey wouldn't admit he attacked Milsoevic; it was Krsljanin. Here are Krsljanin's words:
"Vladimir Krsljanin: OK, but Jared, please. You said he [Clark] attacked him [Milosevic]. And I can agree on that. But you know that he would never admit that he attacked him."
See, Krsljanin says he *agrees* that Clark attacked Milosevic. So in the leadersgip of the ICDSM it was *not* a matter of opinion - we had the *same* opinion. Now, since Krsljanin *agreed* that CLark attacked Milosevic - why was he so upset that we were acting on Milosevic's instruction to remove Clark from the position of -co-chairman?Why should we keep as an at-least-on-paper leader a person who attacks our cause?
You say "united we stand, etc." But the ICDSM is *not* a mass organization. It never had more than a few (very few) *actually functioning* members. Now it has fewer. It was a publicity group. It is *very* important that its leaders express Milosevic's views accurately.
That is something that Ramsey Clark has *not* done. Milosevic is attacked as a racist and a supporter of atrocities. These are lies. He does not support Sheikh Rahman, who is a racist and a supporter of atrocities. But Clark links Milosevic to Sheikh Rahman. Surely you can see the harm this does./p>
Yes, it is true that with my approach we would not gain the support of racist supporters of atrocities. We do not need them.
You say, "But the fact that you all seem to want to expell and remove each other seems alarming." That is entirely unfair. Milosvic told us to remove Clark's *title. Not Clark. Clark *never* functioned for one minute as part of the ICDSM. He just had a title. He never answered our phone calls or emails. Not once. The co-chairman title gave him increased leverage with the media. That allowed him to hurt Miloseivc. We did *not* say remove him as a member - we didn't say to remove anyone. We did *not* remove him from the list of ICDSM mebers - even though he never did anything collectively.
We do not want racists, anti-Semites, Nazis, pro-Nazis, people who are publicly identified with Islic fundamentalis (Islamist) terrorto be *spokespersons* for Milsoevic. But it is only we who were threatened, condemned, and expelled.
Jared Israel
USA- Sunday October 05, 2003 at 7:47 pm
Dear JURIST Moderator,The postings from the period 1 - 13 September 2003 incl. are still missing in the discussion archives!
Kindly supply these in full at your earliest convenience (ref. my posting of Friday September 26, 2003 at 9:34 am).
(I trust that quite a few of us do copy all postings anyway. No doubt it would support however the level and focus of the discussion on the "Milosevic Trial" if all previous postings were readily available for everyone from the archives).
Thanking you in advance,
Godfred Louis-Jensen
Copenhagen
D E N M A R K- Sunday October 05, 2003 at 7:51 pm
"But the ICDSM is *not* a mass organization...We do not want racists, anti-Semites, Nazis, pro-Nazis, people who are publicly identified with Islic fundamentalis (Islamist) terrorto be *spokespersons* for Milsoevic. But it is only we who were threatened, condemned, and expelled."
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Canada- Sunday October 05, 2003 at 8:08 pm
"Report that Milosevic rejected Clark as either his lawyer or advisor starts here.""The court has never asked Milosevic if he wants these two people to be appointed as his advisers."
"Report that Milosevic rejected Clark as either his lawyer or advisor ends here."
--
"But the audio file of me and Krsljanin eposes a much more important set of lies. It shows that a) Milosevic did indeed ask us to remove Ramsey Clark."
"I sent Ramsey Clark an email saying he was no longer Co-Chairman of the ICDSM. And if he wanted to be a member, he should let us know.
"Milosevic told us to remove Clark's *title. Not Clark."
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Ca- Sunday October 05, 2003 at 8:12 pm
Three Years After
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La- Sunday October 05, 2003 at 9:35 pm
Dear JURIST Moderator,Ref. my October 05, 2003 at 7:47 pm
In fact we miss the postings from the period 1 - 23 September 2003 incl.!
Kindly supply these postings to the discussion archives at your earliest convenience.
Still thanking you in advance,
Godfred Louis-Jensen
Copenhagen
D E N M A R K- Monday October 06, 2003 at 2:34 am
Way back, by publishing the U.S. government's transcript of Milosevic's speech delivered at the Kosovo Polje almost ten years earlier, Jared Israel contributed significantly towards providing a fair basis for sharing the outlook of the President of Serbia (and later of the FRY).Drawn from the Emperors Clothes (1) Jared Israel's article emerged in a Danish equivalent of this "Trial Discussion" (2) on 6 March, 2002 - some three weeks after the start of the ICTY proceedings at The Hague. Even then but very few in Denmark knew of the real nature of Milosevic's speech - hence it was useful for us.
There is another important piece of work, which has meant a lot to me in coming to grips with the truth about the illegal and misguided air war waged against the Serbs and President Milosevic in 1999 (with the active participation also of my own little country, I regret to say), namely:
THE COMPLAINT compiled by a group headed by Ramsey Clark, a former U.S. Attorney General, and promoted by his International Action Center (IAC). Dated 31 July, 1999 this documet summarizes in nineteen paragraphs the extent and nature of the NATO warfare.
At the time I came across these documents I knew next to nothing about Jared Israel and Ramsey Clark, or of their associates and organisational backing - and to tell the truth I didn't care too much, really! It was very obvious, that they were valuable, and by translating the contents into Danish (a language spoken only by a minor tribe) I have made as much as possible of both.
I can say with absolute certainty that I never stopped to ponder whether the one were "Jewish", "Islamist" or whatever - neither does it concern me these days except for the fact that valuable time and efforts are obviously being waisted in what may be regarded as mere machinations.
Both of these gentlemen (and their associates and friends) have made other valuable contributions to the cause of mr. Milosevic, - and so have many others (making a total that probably none of us command). It is not my errand here to list or to cite, but merely to suggest that while we are still engaged in an uphill struggle then neither the ICDSM, the SLOBODA/Freedom Association or other "associated entities" can easily afford to engage in deliberations not directly aimed at supporting mr. Milosevic and his fellow indictees.
Unlike mr. Bentley I would expect this "who said what to whom and so on" to graciuosly stop - anytime soon.
(1) URL for Jared Israel's article is http://emperors-clothes.com/milo/milosaid.html
(2) Milosevic's sag. Danish daily INFORMATION, http://information.dk/
Godfred Louis-Jensen
Copenhagen
D E N M A R K- Monday October 06, 2003 at 6:42 am
Godfred .- Absolutamente de acuerdo.
M P
Rep de Panama- Monday October 06, 2003 at 9:32 am
Well, MP - I thought so!In turn I would agree with you (and others!) at least in principle that Justice "has to be administered by the authorities of the place where the alleged crimes were commited!
I've had a brief look at the "Vojislav Seselj case", - and if I am not mistaken, then under the Indictment dated 14 February 2003 mr. Seselj is charged with participation in a "joint criminal enterprise" by:
- organizing and indoctrinating volunteers connected to the Serbian Radical Party (SRS), making inflammatory speeches to these and other Serb forces in Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina,
- encouraging the creation of a homogeneous "Greater Serbia", by violence,
- calling for the expulsion of Croat civilians from parts of the Vojvodina region in Serbia, and participating in the planning, preparation and provision of support for the take-over of villages in (certain areas of) Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina and the subsequent forcible removal of the majority of the non-Serb population from these areas.
NOW, the latest court session appear to have be held on 3 July 2003 (implying, I believe, that the next session is due one of these days, although I have not been able to find confirmation of that).
Looking briefly through the transcript I figured, that the tone and contents of the proceedings differ substantially radically, if I may say so, from those that I have hitherto been studying. Now read on (page 81):
JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Good afternoon to everybody. May we have the appearances, please, for the Prosecution?
MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: For the Prosecution, Hildegard Uertz-Retzlaff, senior trial attorney, and I'm actually expecting Mr. Dan Saxon who I think is on his way already.
JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. For the Defence?
THE ACCUSED: The accused, Dr. Vojislav Seselj in person.
JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. We'll come back to this later. The purpose of a meeting under Rule 65 bis, the so-called Status Conference, is to find out what are the actual problems of this case, how the case's development...and to allow the accused the opportunity to raise issues in relation thereto, including the mental and physical condition of the accused. May I start with the latter point and ask you, are there any special health problems you would have?
THE ACCUSED: Your Honour, I would like to ask that we do not begin with the last point. I do have some health problems, but they are not the most important for me. Could you leave those matters regarding my health condition for the end, as envisaged by the rules?
JUDGE SCHOMBURG: The order of the proceedings are decided by the Judge. May I ask you once again, do you have any health problems?
THE ACCUSED: Yes, I do have serious health problems. My health problems are of a psychological nature. I cautioned you of these problems at the Initial Appearance. I repeated them at the first Status Conference, and now this has developed into very serious mental suffering, and I insist that the Trial Chamber take appropriate measures to diminish or remove that suffering: Your judicial clothing and robes worn by the Prosecution and the Judges cause a great deal of disturbance for me. They cause a great deal of anguish. You promised that something would be done, and this was repeated at the Status Conference, but I still haven't received anything. I insist that you set a team of psychiatric experts who will examine whether your robes which are reminisce sent of the Roman Catholic inquisition whether they really do cause anguish. If the psychiatrists find that is not true --
JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I don't want to hear these arguments another time. You have to accept that in the courtrooms of this world, different gowns are worn by counsel and Judges and so it is also in this Tribunal. You have to accept it and this is no reason. If you would have special health problems, please let us know. And if you have other reasons to believe that you have mental health problems, please let us know. And also, let us know whether they are new ones or whether they already existed at the alleged time when allegedly you, as we can see it in the indictment, and this is the submission by the Prosecution, have committed the crimes listed there. Is it your intention that a research of your mental state be conducted for the actual period of time, or also for the time when the alleged crimes were committed?
THE ACCUSED: No. Never in my life have I had any psychological problems. They arose exclusively for the reasons I have mentioned. I am not denying your right to wear the robes you're wearing. But for me, it is unacceptable that they should be reminiscent of the Roman Catholic inquisition. If you were to wear uniforms of the United Nations, that would not disturb me. If you were to wear judicial robes from Chinese, Japanese, Arabic traditions, I wouldn't mind. But this I find intolerable, and my own problems are linked to this. If I had at least received rules regulating this clothing, then maybe my suffering would have been at least somewhat mitigated.
JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I believe nothing has to be added to the words of the Appeals Chamber calling your submissions frivolous once, and I don't want to enter into any discussion of this problem, as you believe is a problem.
May I then continue with some other issues. The first is related to a minor mistake --
THE ACCUSED: May I, Your Honour --
JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Sorry, I give you the floor when I feel it appropriate. In the first Initial Appearance, I asked you for your name and address and so on. But I omitted to ask you explicitly, is it correct that part of your name is the doctor degree, and can you please tell us when and where you obtained this doctor degree?
THE ACCUSED: The title of "doctor" is part of my name, and I acquired the title of doctor of law when, on the 25th of November, 1979, I defended my doctoral thesis at the law faculty of the university in Belgrade. I am a doctor of sciences. In Germany, that would be a doctorate of second degree. As far as I know, GeInrmans have several levels, or a Ph.D. in among the British and the Americans.
JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you for this clarification...
Well, well, well, - I'll leave to you to draw conclusions, - also with regard to the prudence in taking "councel" in this particular case, dealing with Judge Scumbag...
Godfred Louis-Jensen
Copenhagen
D E N M A R K- Monday October 06, 2003 at 10:24 am
It is quite obvious by now that the greatest eminance grise of world jurisprudence have declined to seat at the Chamber (pots) of the ICTY.
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La- Monday October 06, 2003 at 10:27 am
MODERATOR it is time to allow slow connecting folks to participate: please REDUCE this PAGE LENGTH
Muchas gracias.
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La- Monday October 06, 2003 at 12:18 pm
Gogol,This JURIST Network is directed, I believe, by Professor Bernard J. Hibbitts, University of Pittsburgh School of Law, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, USA, - in consultation with an international Advisory Board...
Would you maybe kindly adress the professor and /or the Board on this problem of "page lenght" - as well as the missing archives (on which I have adressed the Moderator twice already)?
E-mail: JURIST@law.pitt.edu.
Godfred Louis-Jensen
Copenhagen
D E N M A R K- Monday October 06, 2003 at 1:17 pm
Under the ICTY Indictment dated 14 February 2003 dr. Vojislav Seselj in person is charged with participation in a "joint criminal enterprise" by:- organizing and "indoctrinating" volunteers, making "inflammatory" speeches
- "encouraging" the creation of a homogeneous "Greater Serbia", by violence,
- "calling for" the expulsion of civilians with a view to take over their villages, and forcibly remove the majority of the non-Serb population...
Is that so or not?
What does a Jared Israel think of this - out of general "love for the Serbs" (October 05, 2003 at 12:58 pm)?
Godfred Louis-Jensen
Copenhagen
D E N M A R K- Monday October 06, 2003 at 3:48 pm
info:ICTY transcripts of 2002 Oct 17-18 have now been posted in unredacted versions. Journalist JOVAN DULOVIC started testifying on the 16th but due to some threats the following days were in closed session.
The closed sessiom testemony was released to the public 27 february 2003. It only took a little over 7 months to get it posted!
Ann-Marie Laios
Sollentuna
Sweden- Monday October 06, 2003 at 5:32 pm
Peter Taylor,Does your sensitivity betray a hidden agenda which some here have claimed?
Since when has opposing anti-semitism been a hidden agenda for Jared Israel? I would say that his agenda is quite clear and is not hidden in the least. Look at his website. His agenda is there for all to see. It's no mystery.
What's more is that I agree with him. It seems that Jews are being singled out and accused more than they deserve. Anti-Semitism is a problem.
And why should it be a bad thing that Israel defends itself? Just because Serbia was attacked for defending itself dosen't mean that Israel should receive the same fate as Serbia did. What happened to Serbia was awful and shouldn't be done to anybody. Two wrongs don't make a right.
Cohen, Albright, Rubin, and Clark didn't attack Serbia because they were Jews (or because they found out that they had some Jewish ancestors), and if you think that's why they did then you really are an antisemite.
Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States- Monday October 06, 2003 at 6:36 pm
"We won by targeting Jewish audience. Almost immediately there was a clear change of language in the press, with the use of words with high emotional content, such as "ethnic cleansing", "concentration camps", etc. which evoked images of Nazi Germany and the gas chambers of Auschwitz.""Why this fierce Jewish persistence against the Serbs? Never in history until now have the Jews lead a campaign against one particular nation. The Serbs became the Golem for the Jews."
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Canada- Monday October 06, 2003 at 7:23 pm
"Why this fierce Jewish persistence against the Serbs? Never in history until now have the Jews lead a campaign against one particular nation. The Serbs became the Golem for the Jews."The above quote is from an article by William Markiewicz, "GOLEM" (Serbs and Jews)at vagabondpages.com
Nikole J.
Canada- Monday October 06, 2003 at 7:40 pm
My respect & greater trust goes out to Christopher Black whose silence speaks eloquent volumes re his loyalty to the cause of this forum, i.e., demonstrating the draconian & grotesque tactics of the Hague Tribunal, exposing the illegal aggression & war crimes of NATO, & supporting the staunch bravery of Milosevic & other Serbs in defending their country & peoples.I join with others who ask that this forum not be ursurped for other agendas.
It was reported by B92 that the latest Serb Commander to plead guilty did so in exchange for protection for his family. This translates into a threat made to his family if he did not plead guilty, and brings the suspicion that ALL the guilty pleas made by Serbs at the Hague Tribunal were gained under similar coercion.
Are others as disappointed & distressed as myself at the prospect of the Serbian army joining NATO forces in Afganistan? I find it appalling that Serbs soldiers would line up beside the very nations who killed & mutilated thousands of their countrymen, women, & children; line up with an organization which continues to blaspheme, incarcerate, torture, harry, & hunt down like dogs, the very best of their proud & courageous homeland.
There are indications that the credibility of governments is being questioned via the public's growing awareness. Now is the time for every oar to be in the water, pulling hard. With Milosevic at the helm, it is seeming more possible that we can bring this ship of truth & justice safely ashore. Bravo to the oarsmen/women who continuously do a dedicated yeomen's job here, keeping us on track & well informed & do so with unwavering civility.
M Donne
Canada- Monday October 06, 2003 at 8:40 pm
The State Department spokesman was asked by a journalist during a press briefing today if the US government was concerned that the Serb who will commanding the Serb military detachment in Afghanistan was in charge of the Gendarmerie in Kosovo. Reply: a shoulders shrug!
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La- Monday October 06, 2003 at 9:04 pm
M.Donne --
I find it appalling that Serbs soldiers would line up beside the very nations who killed & mutilated thousands of their countrymen, women, & children ..."The Devil leads the ball" (Anquetil, 1925) and the Serbs join the pack of dancers.
Z. S.
Canada- Monday October 06, 2003 at 9:18 pm
Andy WilcoxsonYou wish to close down legitimate areas of debate by deliberately misrepresenting comments and issuing insults.
No comments I have made allow you to label me an anti-Semite: or Mr Israel to claim that I am ‘afflicted with a blinding prejudice against the Jews’: or your declared friend and supporter (5 Oct 2003 at 7:33 am), Troll Aksamit, to label contributors he disagrees with “Trolls, morons and Oprah watching dipshits”.
Clearly you object to my questioning the despicable conduct of a group of people - all the senior relevant positions in the Clinton administration - for covertly supporting Islamic terror in Serbia’s province of Kosovo and when that failed attacking the Serbs directly in support of the KLA: first with lies and then with bombs. The final indignity being to allow the terrorists to drive out - those they did not murder and continue to murder - a quarter of million of Kosovo’s minorities from their centuries old homeland.
Because these facts make some people feel uncomfortable I have to be silenced.
Just as the Jews rightly claim that the Germans should have dealt with Adolph Hitler and his gang so those of us who believe in justice have the right to claim that the Jews should have dealt with Cohen, Albright, Rubin and Clark.
Bar Clinton, who was otherwise engaged, this group of Jews held the most powerful positions on this earth: US Secretary for Defence, the US Secretary of State and her assistant and the US General in charge of the military attack. They supported then and no doubt still do Israel’s fight against Islamism.
While Israel justly claims the right to take whatever steps are necessary to defend itself against Islamic terror it is indefensible and incomprehensible for this powerful group of the Jewish community - and their many supporters in the Jewish community - to have destroyed Serbia in support of Islamic terror.
As in all communities there are many able, courageous and honest people. If some in their community abused their power to Install Islamic terror in the Serbian Province of Kosovo then the Jews surely have the power to destroy this farce at The Hague. May they prevail.
Peter Taylor
Herts/UK- Monday October 06, 2003 at 10:38 pm
"American Jews have uniformly greeted the Serbian brutality in Kosovo with outrage. They identified with the displaced Kosovars, comparing them to the Jews of the Holocaust. They commended NATO for bombing quickly rather than ignoring the brutality as Allied leaders did during the Holocaust. One Jewish organization ran newspaper ads depicting trainloads of bedraggled Kosovars, an echo of Nazi concentration camp trains. American Jews poured cash into half a dozen relief funds established by national Jewish groups, and at least two Jewish agencies sent relief teams to the Balkans."
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Canada- Monday October 06, 2003 at 10:38 pm
“The propagandist's purpose,” wrote Aldous Huxley in 1937, “is to make one set of people forget that certain other sets of people are human.”
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La- Monday October 06, 2003 at 10:54 pm
"General Clark has not discussed his heritage with many people, sharing his belated discovery of his biological father's family and background with only a few close friends and his immediate family. He declined to be interviewed for this article. But in interviews, some of his relatives and friends say that General Clark was inspired by the story of his grandfather's persecution and escape from his native land, and that his determination to defeat Milosevic is fed in part by his empathy for the victims of Serbian ethnic purges."
1 2
Canada- Monday October 06, 2003 at 11:43 pm
1 2Seems unlikely that there could have been a failure to note that where the Nazi trains were transporting victims to concentration camps, the Serbs were transporting everyone they could to safety via the trains pictured. Using such pictures to tell a lie is called propaganda & suggests an ulterior motive.
M Donne
Canada - Saturday October 04, 2003 at 3:41 pm