 MILOSEVIC TRIAL DISCUSSION ARCHIVE |
| JURIST >> LEGAL NEWS - WORLD LAW >> Discussion >> Milosevic Trial Discussion Archive |
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Former Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic is on trial for war crimes in the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia at The Hague. This marks the first time a head of state has been personally prosecuted before an international criminal court.
Is Slobodan Milosevic getting a fair trial?
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- discussion archive
- Tuesday October 07, 2003 at 12:20 am
Is it just me, or are there others too who are unable to fully download the transcripts for 16 & 17 September?
Seshadri Raghavan
India - Tuesday October 07, 2003 at 4:53 am
Let me just say that Jared Israel's arguments are disingenuous! He claims a right to attack Peter Taylor as an anti Semite (Jew basher in colloquial terms). Jared Israel KNOWS that the OVERWHELMING MAJORITY of Jewish organisations took the anti-Serbian position with respect to Bosnia and Kosovo. Only a very small proportion of Jewish organisations, predominantly in Israel, denied the Holocaust analogy and stood up for the Serbs. To claim otherwise is just a plain outright untruth amongst many, many untruths.Even Wiesenthal got on the Serb bashing bandwagon, not to mention Joseph Liebermann who called the KLA's agenda and struggle a "just one".
Jared Israel, while you have some things right, you're way off the mark on others! Don't whitewash the role the majority of Jewish lobby groups and organisations played in the Bush I and Clinton agendas for the New World Order, if by no other means but by their very silence if not their open support for the Islamists in YU! What were they trying to prove? That they are not anti Islamic? That since they supported the Islamists in YU they have carte blanche to slaughter and deprive Palestinians of their land with total impunity?
Most of those Jewish organisations would know who the Serbs were/are and who Izetbegovic and the KLA were/are. Yet those same organisations still turned the other way! You would have to draw up a pretty stiff argument to convince me that if the majority of those Jewish organisations supported the truth, the Serbs would have had such bad press for so long! Just goes to show that history and truth don't carry much weight when it comes to agendas and business interests.
How is it possible that the radical Islamic terrorists who are such a "threat" to Israel miraculously became FREEDOM FIGHTERS in YU? How is it possible that Milosevic ends up in the Hague and is treated like a criminal while Sharon, fighting the same kind of "evil", is a hero? Why are the same Jewish organisations who were bashing the Serbs at the time keeping silent about Milosevic and the Serbs even NOW when the REAL story is becoming clearer and clearer, at least in Kosovo!? Have they lost their voice in the struggle for truth, justice and humanity?
The Serbs stood up for them against the Nazis. The least those organisations can do is repay them in kind! Why are they still keeping silent?
David
Oztralia - Tuesday October 07, 2003 at 7:26 am
A popular say in some parts of the world:
What does the Grand Rabbi of Warsaw knows about a good f**k, said the Grand Rabbi of Paris!
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La - Tuesday October 07, 2003 at 8:52 am
Could Jared Israel explain to me why he tells Peter Taylor that the Jews do not exist as one block?Can he also explain why he always talks about Serbs as if they are one block?
I usually make no comment on what is going on outside Serbia but I am getting tired to somebody talking about me as if they represent me. Mr Israel neither you or Mr Milosevic today represent me any more than Mr Bush or Clinton represent you. Do you understand that?
I wait for your reply.
Anne Marie for your information the journalist Dulovic you said works for Vreme magazine. He's an older guy quite respected.
Arandjel Pasic
yu - Tuesday October 07, 2003 at 8:53 am
Interesting that Judge May (NATO) agrees with Mr. Milosevic that the new procedure of admitting witnesses statement is unacceptable , but as May (NATO) put it the court has to "obey the appeals court rule"
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La - Tuesday October 07, 2003 at 9:00 am
Peter Taylor,I am certainly not trying to insult you, I just want you to take a look at what you said:
Germans should have dealt with Adolph Hitler.
[...]
Jews should have dealt with Cohen, Albright, Rubin and Clark.Why do you say Jews and not Americans? Cohen, Albright, Rubin and Clark were officials in the AMERICAN government, not in some Jewish organization.
The people you mentioned committed their crimes in their capacity as U.S. Government officials, not in their capacity as Jews, or people of Jewish ancestry.
It is for the American people do deal with these criminals, not just the people who happen to be of the same religion.
Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States - Tuesday October 07, 2003 at 9:36 am
David,I see your point. The anti-Serbian conduct of numerous Jewish organizations has been reprehenceable, especially given the fact that the Serbs saved the lives of hundreds of thousands of Jews (including Madeline Albright's family) durring the holocaust. The Jews who run those organizations can only be described as Quislings for attacking the Serbs who have saved the lives of so many Jews.
However, this is not a problem with the Jews as a group, this is a problem with certain individuals who happen to be Jewish. Just like Albanians aren't a problem as a group, but Albanian terrorists who machine-gun children in a fascist quest for ethnically pure greater-Albania are a problem.
This is why it is important always to call Albanian terrorists "Albanian terrorists" and not just "Albanians," because not all Albanians are terrorists. Likewise, it might be better to call the Jews who support attacking Serbia "Jewish Quislings" as opposed to simply calling them "Jews," the reason being that not all Jews support attacking people who are trying to defend themselves from fascists and Islamist terror groups.
Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States - Tuesday October 07, 2003 at 9:37 am
"In America, Jews can’t do wrong, and whoever thinks otherwise, is branded an anti-Semite."
1 2
Canada - Tuesday October 07, 2003 at 9:48 am
"American Jews have uniformly greeted the Serbian brutality in Kosovo with outrage.""However, this is not a problem with the Jews as a group, this is a problem with certain individuals who happen to be Jewish."
1 2
Canada - Tuesday October 07, 2003 at 10:47 am
I would like to add my plea to the web master of this forum to better control the length of these pages so as to make it accessible to all.
D. Jovanovic
USA - Tuesday October 07, 2003 at 10:52 am
Evoking the holocaust was essential for the Clinton administration in gathering NATO and world support to go to war against Yugoslavia, I repeat Yugoslavia. At one time more that 90 American of Jewish ancestry, ethnicity or religion were in his administration involved in policy making, including the policy against Yugoslavia, a coincidence?
It is argued the war against Yugoslavia was the first step in reshaping the Middle East, oil and energy strategy, and intervention in Central Asia. This policy includes the future and a place under the sun for the State of Israel, does anyone doubts the clout of Zionism in American foreign policy?
And please what does this have to do with anti-semitism and a lot to do with cretinism?
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La - Tuesday October 07, 2003 at 10:54 am
Ana Dakic,
The guy you wrote that article about papal visit, wrote this:
http://emperors-clothes.com/analysis/treas.htm
http://emperors-clothes.com/articles/makara/disgust.htm
But, you of course don't agree with your friend?
I've never seen Seselj's veolunteers kill anyone, but I did hear about it from a lot of different people who wouldn't lie to me. Thats why I wouldnt makje a good witness.
pantelija damjanovic
bh - Tuesday October 07, 2003 at 10:56 am
Andy, How do you call AJC? http://www.ajcongress.org/pages/RELS1999/MAR99REL/mar99_02.htm http://www.ajcongress.org/pages/RELS1999/APR99REL/apr99_01.htm http://www.ajcongress.org/pages/RELS1999/JUN99REL/jun99_05.htm
D. Jovanovic
Canada - Tuesday October 07, 2003 at 11:14 am
D. Jovanovic,Judging from their statements it is obvious that the AJC are Quislings. I think that you will agree that it isn't in the interest of most Jewish people to support terrorists and fascists yet that is exactly what the AJC did.
The AJC should be denounced. Their statements can only be viewed as obscene and offensive by any civilized person.
Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States - Tuesday October 07, 2003 at 11:15 am
Declaring that NATO's victory in Kosovo "restores reassuring life and vitality" to the term "never again," the American Jewish Congress today hailed the allied triumph over Slobodan Milosevich, declaring that the military action "sends forth the powerful message that decent nations will in fact no longer tolerate ethnic cleansing, mass expulsions, wanton killing and widespread rape of a despised minority population. "
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La - Tuesday October 07, 2003 at 11:19 am
The American Jewish Congress, founded in 1918 by Rabbi Stephen S. Wise, Justice Louis D. Brandeis and other distinguished Jews, specializes in combatting all forms of bigotry through law and legislation. Considered the legal voice of the American Jewish Community, it works to safeguard Jewish interests, protect basic freedoms enshrined in the American Bill of Rights and to advance the security of Israel.
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La - Tuesday October 07, 2003 at 11:22 am
We congratulate President Clinton, Secretaries Albright and Cohen, National Security Advisor Berger and other shapers and practitioners of American policy for having the vision and the fortitude to overcome the doubters. There was much to risk in the war in Kosovo and much to lose. America persevered because of its strong commitment to meet an unmistakable moral challenge.
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La - Tuesday October 07, 2003 at 11:23 am
We congratulate President Clinton, Secretaries Albright and Cohen, National Security Advisor Berger and other shapers and practitioners of American policy for having the vision and the fortitude to overcome the doubters. There was much to risk in the war in Kosovo and much to lose. America persevered because of its strong commitment to meet an unmistakable moral challenge.
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La - Tuesday October 07, 2003 at 11:24 am
D. Jovanovic,Am I delighted to see, that you are still around, - and somehow capable to access the "Milosevic Trial Discussion" forum in spite of its often too lengthy "page".
May I remind you of my "question" to you as to what (in your opinion) mr. Milosevic (or his "trial") has got to do with "Srebrenica"?
(Regrettably I am not able to refer you neither to my own posting nor to its context, - since JURIST seem to have unfortunately entered a policy of scrapping everything rather than keeping a full record in an accessible "discussion archive".
But you were advertising for some comprehensive account of the proceedings concerning "Srebrenica", obtaining I believe merely the information (from Andy Wilcoxson), that but one witness is heard in that connexion. So maybe my question should now be changed to this:
What (in your opinion) has this (single) testimony on "Screbrenica" got to do with mr. Milosevic?
You will have guessed, I trust, that in my own opinion the answer is: Nothing! I do not even agree with the justification for cross-examining the witness as suggested by Andy Wilcoxson, namely that mr. Milosevic has "pledged" to set the "Serb" record straight; in my opinion much too much time and energy is wasted in this "trial" (and in this discussion forum!) on matters only wagely related to mr. Milosevic - or not at all.
Oddly I would only be happy if you could convince me, that "Screbrenica" isn't among these matters? Please).
Godfred Louis-Jensen
Copenhagen
D E N M A R K - Tuesday October 07, 2003 at 11:57 am
Godfred Louis-Jensen,I find your postings of great importance & wish to read every word of them. Unfortunately, in your latest posting, at least on my browser, words were lost at the end of your lines. Could you please shorten your lines so that nothing is lost? Thanks.
M Donne
Canada - Tuesday October 07, 2003 at 12:01 pm
Arandjel Pasic,while waiting for mr. Israel's reply may I put in the suggestion, that while the inhabitants of the Jewish colony of Israel characteristically refer to themselves as "Israelis", the term "Serbs" is correctly used for a "block" of people with Serb passports etc.
We regard them as Serbs, - and so they proudly do themselves believe, - even if they do not conform in all respects.
It just comes to my mind, that when on 25th March, 1999 the war against Yugoslavia got underway the Times ran this headline above the photo of a U.S. B-52:
"NATO pounding the Serbs"
(Times was referring to "NATO" as a block, - but did not imply that ALL Serbs would necessarily be "pounded", I guess).
Godfred Louis-Jensen
Copenhagen
D E N M A R K - Tuesday October 07, 2003 at 12:01 pm
Yikes! The same thing happened to my post. Am keeping this post to <25 spaces as a test.
M Donne
Canada - Tuesday October 07, 2003 at 12:07 pm
You said I said that. For your information(and this again goes to have facts before you speak) Jared asked me on this discussion if he can post my article about Pope and I said sure. First time I posted this article was here on this discussion and Jared just reprinted it. So in your opinion if somebody reprints what I said, I have same opinion as that person. You are attributing somebody else words to me. If this is how you gained your extensive knowledge about Seselj crimes ... boy is Seselj is EVER going to walk.
Dakic Ana
Serbia - Tuesday October 07, 2003 at 12:14 pm
Hearing about crimes from somebody you trust is still, in the court of law, here say. You did not witness it and only thing you can say I have heard it from somebody else. That is NOT an evidence. Even judge Judy would not except it as an evidence because there is no way to cross examine somebody else words. This is why majority of people here are against Hague ICTY because they take here say as evidence.
Dakic Ana
Serbia - Tuesday October 07, 2003 at 1:55 pm
Like many other organizations the AJC has an agenda. The primary goal of the Congress is to promote the interest, primarily the security, of Judaism. Daily we are reminded by the media that the next Holocaust is just around the corner. The JNC promotes this view. Why? What purpose does it serve? First it justifies Israeli policies in the Middle East as well as America’s support of those policies and secondly the vision of the Holocaust exposes those who are racist and helps to promote a common goal of universality of human rights. Unfortunately, I think, the JNC spends more time on the former than on the latter. What does this have to do with Milosevic?JNC’s stand on the Milosevic Trial is hypocritical.because in this case they refuse to expose violations of Human Rights and International Law. JNC must expose Jewish as well as non Jewish victimization in order to have credibility to speak about Human Rights. Milosevic is a victim of an international conspiracy. JNC and the American government constantly shout that Israel has a right to defend itself! America has the right to defend itself! When will the JNC shout that Serbia has the right to defend itself? When will the JNC shout that trial by exhaustion and inquisition does nothing to promote Universal human Rights? When will the JNC shout in support of International Law? The policy of the JNC is “do what I say not what I do” and if what I do is contrary to Human Rights wave the Holocaust banner and that justifies everything.
Srebrenica is related to Milosevic just like the Holocaust banner is related to Israel. The Srebrenica banner justifies NATO’s aggression and excuses the daily shame wrought on English Jurisprudence in Mr. May’s kangaroo court.
Walter Trkla
Kamloops
BC - Tuesday October 07, 2003 at 2:09 pm
Godfred I realise the difference but I dont see that sharing nationality means that you will have same opinions as your countrymen.Mr Israel says things like 'I love Serbs'. What does that mean? I didnt like generalisation that Serbs are bad but I dont like worship either. There are no good or evil nations. 'Serbs' want what everyone else does, just a bit of respect and fair treatment. That has nothing to do with nationality.
A bit more reality and less romantic ideas is always helpful in solving problems. I say this from experience.
It is the same for Milosevic. He was my President even if I did not like him very much. Now he is a private citizen and he does not represent Serbia. Or we also say that Clinton represent all American people for example.
So the question is what makes people to believe that one man represent a whole nation? And what makes people to believe that one nationality can be called a body or put together?
Pantelija please dont say you think Kostunica is a saint. He knew very well about sending Milosevic to Hague.
Arandjel Pasic
yu - Tuesday October 07, 2003 at 2:18 pm
"As it happens, Serbia's treatment of the Jews was not as the Serbs have portrayed it. It's true that Tito's Communist Partisans welcomed Jews into their guerilla units, and it's true that the Serbs were not as terrible as the Croats and Bosnians. But, 1) the Chetniks, who are the direct ancestors of today's Serbian nationalists, were consistently and violently anti-Semitic. (The Chetniks also supported the Nazis for much of the war, and even turned over Jews to them.) 2) The Serbian collaborationist regime cooperated eagerly with the Nazis. 3) Serbia's Jews fared much worse than most European Jews. Nazis exterminated more than 90 percent of Serbia's 15,000 Jews, the women and children at a camp right outside Belgrade. Serbs did not resist or protest this slaughter.""Even so, vestigial sympathy for Serbs remains today in Israel (and, in a much more limited way, in the United States)...Such expressions of solidarity...don't begin to outweigh Israeli sympathy for Kosovars and outrage at Serbs. But God knows they're more than Milosevic and his people deserve."
1 2
Canada - Tuesday October 07, 2003 at 2:20 pm
"During the past decade, Serbia has taken advantage of this version of its World War II history to make common cause with Israel. In the late '80s, with the blessing of Slobodan Milosevic, a group of Serbs organized the Serbian Jewish Friendship Society, which has propagandized endlessly about Serbia's Holocaust decency."
1 2
Canada - Tuesday October 07, 2003 at 2:24 pm
Andy WilcoxsonAmerican Jews: if you insist on Political Correctness
In April of 1999 the Yugoslav ambassador to the United Nations wrote a letter to several Jewish organizations, begging for support. NATO had bombed the Bridge at Novi Sad and the adjacent Memorial Park. "The Bridge and the Park had special significance to Jews and Serbs," wrote the ambassador, because, "a few thousand Jews and Serbs were summarily executed by the Nazis and thrown into the Danube under that bridge" on April 1, 1942. But there was silence; no Jewish organization responded. That silence must be broken.
Peter Taylor
Herts/UK - Tuesday October 07, 2003 at 2:28 pm
Mr. Gogol CharlemagneI just listened to the Ramsey Clark speech and answers to questions at the press club luncheon. It was the address you gave.
I have not heard him mention Milosevic once in all 60 minutes of it.
Did I miss something?
D. Jovanovic
USA - Tuesday October 07, 2003 at 3:54 pm
D. Jovanovic I also listened to it.
Clark got a question that was something like this:
- You have been called the 'war- criminals best fried' Why have you defend war-criminals? Like Milosevic for example. He then avoided Milosevic in his answer and took Sheik Abdel Rahman as an exemple, and said he would represent anyone who couldn't find a lawyer who would.He didn't take the opportunity to say anything about Milosevic or the trial or the ICTY.
But I don't think it is fair to say that he linked Milosevic to Rahman.
Arendjel,
I'm sure both Dulovic and Vreme are very 'respected'.
Why not read the transcripts.
As I said, only the beginning of the testemony on the 16th of October 2002 was in open session. The transcripts of the closed sessions on the 17th and 18th has not been posted at the ICTY-page until now.Read, and you get as much hearsay as you can take. Vukovar, Ovcara, Zvornik, Seselj, Arkan, Yellow Wasps, ..most hearsay. But strangely enough in crossexamination he had not heard the slightest hearsay about other events in those places.
The 'old' testemony from the 16th can of course also be seen in the video archives.
Ann-Marie Laios
Sollentuna
Sweden - Tuesday October 07, 2003 at 3:57 pm
correction
AM L
Sverige - Tuesday October 07, 2003 at 5:11 pm
Drazco,
I don't want to spend 4.95 USD National Public Radio charges for the transcript of Ramsey Clark talk at the National Press Club. NPR used to offer the service free of charge but public interests are now the domain of money as you surely have noticed.
What Clark said to the answer regarding defending Mr. Milosevic was: "... because I am lawyer" and to reinforce his point he expanded on the fact Sheik Abdel Rahman who had been illegally apprehended when in New York City attending a United Nations event, had no lawyer because in the New York City bar nobody wanted to take his case.
Imagine going to a doctor and being refused treatment because you're a Muslim scholar and the attorney's reputation could be tarnished, precisely the point it is made here repeatedly. One can only be pleased to know that people like Ramsey Clark are there ready to give the necessary assistance as a lawyer to people otherwise denied to the protection of the law, as everyone is no matter his creed, race, political ideas, and alleged crime. That is the matter reflected at the tape of the conference.
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La - Tuesday October 07, 2003 at 5:18 pm
Further, he was also asked if in his opinion the State of Israel had the right to exist, to what he answered: "certainly but I don't think it should continue . . 50 years of abuse of the rights of the Palestinian people" and that they also were entitled to their state.
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La - Tuesday October 07, 2003 at 5:59 pm
"Ramsey Clark Poses as Milosevic's Lawyer and then Smears the 'Client' on Nationwide U.S. Television.""The co-chairman title gave him increased leverage with the media. That allowed him to hurt Milosevic."
"I just listened to the Ramsey Clark speech and answers to questions at the press club luncheon...I have not heard him mention Milosevic once in all 60 minutes of it."
1 2
Canada - Tuesday October 07, 2003 at 6:10 pm
1 2 CanadaYou quote the following from somewhere...
"Even so, vestigial sympathy for Serbs remains today in Israel (and, in a much more limited way, in the United States)...Such expressions of solidarity...don't begin to outweigh Israeli sympathy for Kosovars and outrage at Serbs. But God knows they're more than Milosevic and his people deserve."
So the writer suggests that the KLA, the direct descendants of the Fascists in WW2 Kosovo, part of the crowd who directly exterminated Jews in the Holocaust which the Jews are so bitter about even to this day, deserve better than the Serbs? Goes to show what slime some people can get into. I don't know whose quote you are citing but if that is representative of the leadership of modern day Jewry, then I have lost all faith in mankind and decency.
To adapt another quote: "What a piece of work is (that) man, how ignoble in reason, how infinite in fuckulty, in apprehension how like a shit!"
Maybe some of the decent Jewish organisations might like to DISOWN this and similar slime merchants?
David
Oztralia - Tuesday October 07, 2003 at 6:12 pm
And PUBLICLY at that!
David
Oztralia - Tuesday October 07, 2003 at 6:19 pm
"Serbs, Kosovars, Israelis, Palestinians - The bewildering politics of Kosovo in Israel. By David Plotz"http://slate.msn.com/id/25826/
"Even so, vestigial sympathy for Serbs remains today in Israel (and, in a much more limited way, in the United States)."
"Philip Cohen's Serbia's Secret War (click to buy the book) argues that Serbs cooperated with Nazis in the slaughter of Jews and were deeply anti-Semitic. Serbian advocates counter Cohen and reassert Serbia's World War II decency in this response to the book (and this one). Here is a Hebrew University study of anti-Semitism in Serbia since 1991. There's a lot of it."
1 2
Canada - Tuesday October 07, 2003 at 7:41 pm
I Won't even bother to follow the "Semite issue" probably the ones that acuse others of been anti-semites are probably the real ones .
M P
Rep de Panama - Tuesday October 07, 2003 at 8:07 pm
I have different worries like . It is OK for the u.s. to go 180° from Circusfonia to bomb Afghanistan and Irak . Reason terror . It is OK for Israel to bomb and rocket Gaza , Jenin and Siria . Reason terror . It is OK for Russia to bomb Chechnya . Reason terror . It is OK for England to fight IRA . Reason terror . It is OK for Spain to fight ETA . Reason terror . It is OK for Colombia to fight FARC , ELN . Reason terror . It is OK for the Philippines to fight the MORO LIB. FRONT . Reason terror . It is OK FOR Sri Lanka to fight the Tamil Tigers . Reason terror . India , China , Turkey , etc they all have the right to fight terror . NOW , WHY SERBIA HAD TO BE BOMBED IF SHE WAS EXERCISING HER RIGHT TO FIGHT TERROR INSIDE HER BORDERS . WE NEED AN ANSWER TO THIS MATTER AND NOT WASTING TIME AND PATIENCE FIGURING OUT WHO THE FUCK IS ANTI OR PRO SEMITE ,
M P
Rep de Panama - Tuesday October 07, 2003 at 9:18 pm
Covic unmoved by Holbrooke’s support for independence | 20:33 | Beta BELGRADE -- Monday - Belgrade’s Kosovo coordinator has shrugged off Richard Holbrooke’s advocacy of independence for the UN-governed province. “We shouldn’t place too much important in it, since the official stance of the US, EU and other international factors is ‘standards before status’”, said Nebojsa Covic. Holbrooke, the former US ambassador to the UN and the architect of the Dayton peace accord, told a Pristina newspaper today that Serbia had already lost Kosovo. He arrived in Belgrade on Friday where he met Covic to discuss the situation in southern Serbia. Covic said today that Holbrooke had come to Serbia with his mind made up: “He didn’t want to hear anything that was discussed in Belgrade,” he said. “He’s a typical politician who’s been left without a job and has to come to a crisis region to find a new on. Pour more gasoline on fire
Vasile Ianos
NJ - Tuesday October 07, 2003 at 10:16 pm
Today at the Hague...http://www.slobodan-milosevic.org/news/smorg100703.htm
Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States - Tuesday October 07, 2003 at 10:49 pm
Carla¡¡¡ , any word on Ante Gotovina ? , how about some "Panama Red" to help you out on your "quest" for Justice .
M P
Rep de Panama - Tuesday October 07, 2003 at 11:55 pm
MP of Panama wrote:I have different worries like . It is OK for the u.s. to go 180° from Circusfonia to bomb Afghanistan and Irak . Reason terror . It is OK for Israel to bomb and rocket Gaza , Jenin and Siria . Reason terror . It is OK for Russia to bomb Chechnya . Reason terror . It is OK for England to fight IRA . Reason terror . It is OK for Spain to fight ETA . Reason terror . It is OK for Colombia to fight FARC , ELN . Reason terror . It is OK for the Philippines to fight the MORO LIB. FRONT . Reason terror . It is OK FOR Sri Lanka to fight the Tamil Tigers . Reason terror . India , China , Turkey , etc they all have the right to fight terror . NOW , WHY SERBIA HAD TO BE BOMBED IF SHE WAS EXERCISING HER RIGHT TO FIGHT TERROR INSIDE HER BORDERS . WE NEED AN ANSWER TO THIS MATTER AND NOT WASTING TIME AND PATIENCE FIGURING OUT WHO THE FUCK IS ANTI OR PRO SEMITE"
Here, here MP. You hit the nail right on the head!
That is precisely why the ICTY is such a farce. That is precisely why Milosevic is not getting a fair trial. Because the Globalists' war is not against Milosevic but against all Serbs for daring to defy the New World Order diktats! Milosevic was their leader and the whole prosecution of Milosevic and leading Serbian political and military figures is a de facto PERSECUTION of, and an ASSAULT on, the Serbs' for their historical and traditional insistence on their independence and freedom. Kosovo and the destruction of YU was simply a vehicle for quashing such aspirations!
The objective is to wipe out any resistance and ensure the current quisling Serbs, like the ones who worked for the Nazis, remain in power and faithful to their foreign masters.
To achieve this, the current Serbs have to be "isolated" and made to cower and feel "shame" in order to ensure compliance towards the New World Order.
That is the objective of the ICTY process! To "LEGALLY" and publicly declare and endorse the need for "shame", "repentance", "atonement" and compliance.
Any Serb who has missed this rationale should think again before condoning the ICTY's lynching of Milosevic and other leading Serbian opponents to the New World Order. After all, as the "Butchers of the Balkans", who is going to stand up for the Serbs if they try to assert even an iota of independence and rights? After all, as "genocidal criminals" the Serbs will need to abrogate their rights to self management and independence and will need to be monitored by foreign troops and authorities! NB Bosnia and Kosovo where the New World Order's viceroys enjoy dictatorial powers irrespective of the peoples' democratic representatives.
And for those who think that as individuals they should not be judged or put in the same basket as the "rogue" Serbs, don't kid yourselves, the script does not provide for your relief and exculpation as individuals except rhetorically.
David
Oztralia - Wednesday October 08, 2003 at 6:47 am
Hear, hear, - David in Oztralia!Isn't it deploring that a Peter Taylor, (who has otherwise been contributing so admirably within this "Milosevic Trial Discussion" forum at the service of JUSTICE!), should feel compelled to state, that "Israel justly claims the right to take whatever steps are necessary to defend itself" - even before the smoke from the criminal Israeli gvt.s attack on Syria has lifted.
Justly? To Hell they don´t!
MODERATOR,
the "discussion archive" hasn't been updated since 1 September, - you are trailing more than a month behind!
c.c. JURIST@law.pitt.edu
Godfred Louis-Jensen
Copenhagen
D E N M A R K - Wednesday October 08, 2003 at 7:48 am
And while we're on the subject of GENOCIDE....Who wiped out ALL the Yugoslavs off the face of the Earth?
Now that's what I call ethnic cleansing, BIG TIME!
David
Oztralia - Wednesday October 08, 2003 at 8:47 am
1 2"...Serbia's Jews fared much worse than most European Jews. Nazis exterminated more than 90 percent of Serbia's 15,000 Jews, the women and children at a camp right outside Belgrade. Serbs did not resist or protest this slaughter..."
Could it be, by any chance, related to the fact that Serbs themselves fared much worse than most Europeans under de German ocupation? Didn't author of your qoute find out number of Serbs killed in the same camp? Hundreds of Serbs where killed by German troops every day all over Serbia. What kind of the protests are possible in such circumstances?
Rade Plecas
Amsterdam
The Netherlands - Wednesday October 08, 2003 at 8:56 am
"When I type "hte" my super smart computer immediatedy corrects my error and inserts the word "the".It would seem that the latest versions of MicroSoft Word have a new function (at least the versions used by journalists):
Whenever they type the word "Srebrenica" their computers invariably add the following:
"the 1995 massacre of thousands of Muslims, - Europe's worst single atrocity since World War II (whence) more than 7,000 Muslim men and boys were summarily executed after Bosnian Serb forces took the UN declared safe area of Srebrenica on July 11, 1995."
I fear that one day we will all be forced to use similar computers...,"
...Michael Thomas wrote (on Tuesday September 02, 2003 at 12:00 pm).
That little warning may since have ended up in the JURIST "Milosevic Trial Discussion" trash bin, - along with, say, the copy of mr. Milosevic's protest against mr. Holthuis' administrative orders forbidding private visits by members of the SDS, the SLOBODAN/Freedom Association or "associated entitities"?
Wonders of modern (computer)science?
Godfred Louis-Jensen
Copenhagen
D E N M A R K - Wednesday October 08, 2003 at 9:10 am
David, you say:"Who wiped out ALL the Yugoslavs off the face of the Earth?"
I want to believe you wanted to say:
"Who wiped out ALL of Yugoslavia off the face of the Earth?"
In which case I agree with you. And think it is the main reason there are more and more Yugoslavs all around the world. Sometimes they call themselves "ANTIGLOBALIST" which I think is completely wrong for most of them because what they are trying to do is fight against GLOBAL INJUSTICE, as far as I see it. Yougoloves are part of them.
LONG LIVE GLOBALISM (global justice, global equality, global fraternity...)
ivko rig
Yougolovia - Wednesday October 08, 2003 at 9:21 am
Rade Plecas, just to add for every killed German 100 Serbs were shot - Kragujevac, Kraljevo, Gornji Milanovac etc. And our Patriarh - leader of our church as a prisoner in Dahau concentration camp. Dr. Gavrilo Dozich was taken as a prisoner of war by the Germans. He was brought to Sarajevo to stand trial before a military tribunal for alleged "war crimes." The patriarch's personal secretary, who was also imprisoned, reported later that the patriarch continued to maintain his dignity, fully consistent with his character. The secretary reports that the patriarch often gave his accusers the opposite of what they wanted and that he often remained silent, even when he was physically assaulted in the courtroom. After using every cruel trick imaginable, the accusers realized that they had failed miserably in their attempt to force the patriarch to acquiesce in their demands. The Germans confined the patriarch to the Vojlovica monastery. In September 1944, the Gestapo arrived at Vojlovica. They transported the patriarch and the well-known Bishop Nikolai to the concentration camp at Dachau, where they remained until the end of the war. Certainly, no head of the church of any other country, nor other bishop of Nikolai's renown, was imprisoned at Dachau.
Dakic Ana
Serbia - Wednesday October 08, 2003 at 11:38 am
GodfredYou really do keep me on my toes but I must dispel your illusion. I did not feel compelled to make the statement you complain of: I really meant it. However I have regretted ever since missing out an important qualification which I overlooked as being needed to be spelled out at the time. What I meant was:
Israel justly claims the right to take whatever LEGITIMATE steps are necessary to defend itself"
It surely does not have to be spelled out that stealing the Palestinian land that is encompassed in the security wall and the bombing of a sovereign state without Security Council authority or the immediate threat of attack by that state are actions which are not legitimate.
I too say amen to MP’s comments. And in contrast it is to be observed that Serbia did not attack Albania even though the KLA used Albania as a base, a source of weapons and manpower. In a nutshell this Kosovo affair is about legitimising the Albanians in stealing Serbian territory. It cannot be legitimate for an ethnic group, simply because they become over time the largest group within a province of a territory, to take it over by means of terror and drive out those who have lived there for centuries. If the Kosovars wanted to live under Albanian laws, flags and customs (and many Kosovars unsurprisingly did not want to) then all they had to do was transfer to Albania a few tens of kilometres away - a territory very badly governed and thus relatively under populated.
What I do now feel compelled to do is to qualify my every statement. Being posed daft questions such as ‘who are people’ as if people did not know their own identity and ‘what is right or wrong’ as if it isn’t obvious I’m getting a severe attack of paranoia. I used to be uncertain but now I’m not so sure.
This being so I must qualify the above by admitting that Nato made a big fuss about attacks that were made in the border area between Serbia and Albania even though Nato’s own missiles finished up in Hungary, Bulgaria or Rumania.
None of this compares with the Israeli crime of bombing a one time refugee camp and now alleged terror base near Damascus the capital of Syria without convincing proof and UN Security Council authority. What are 500,000 Palestinian refugees doing in Syria anyway?
Peter Taylor
Herts/UK - Wednesday October 08, 2003 at 12:19 pm
Dear Peter Taylor, thank you so much for dispelling my illusions!What made me "keep you on your toes" was my vivid recollection of NATOs "Statement" dated 28 January, 1999 (I think), which with reference to a NATO demand that "those responsible" for the socalled "massacre" at Racak a fortnight earlier "be brought to justice" i.a., was threatening that "if these steps are not taken NATO stands ready to take WHATEVER MEASURE NECESSARY (incl. air strikes at targets in FRY territory)."
The then NATO Secretary General, mr. Javier Solana, didn't really bother to "qualify", did he?
I trust that you will overcome any "attack of paranoia" (and take it that someone wiser than myself will respond to your question on "what 500,000 Palestinian refugees are doing in Syria...").
kind regards
Godfred Louis-Jensen
Copenhagen
D E N M A R K - Wednesday October 08, 2003 at 4:21 pm
Dear Peter Taylor,
Sorry if I offended you but I must stand by what I wrote.
You say you described Clinton and Blair in the same way you described Albright and Cohen: as “sinister Serb Bashers.” Not so. Please, read your original text.. The word “sinister” appears only when you talk about Jewish leaders.
Moreover, you completely missed my point which is that you only mention the religion of Serb-bashers if they are Jewish. Thus, while you do attack Clinton, Blair, Cooke, Baker and other protestants, you don’t mention their religion. But you do with people you say are Jews - and you call the fact that they are Jews sinister. Therefore I am justified in responding that you have a fixation on Jews. That fixation is known as anti-Semitism. (That’s the definition - a negative fixation on Jews coupled with the belief that something about them is sinister.)
Moreover you and everyone else persists in saying Albright is Jewish. But as I pointed out, she converted to Catholicism. That is she converted to the religion which in an organized way took part in the slaughter of East European Jews -Albright’s relatives. For her to convert to Catholicism is not the same as, for example, for a Brazilian Jew to do so. It is the same as for a Serb from Croatia to convert to Catholicism. So she converted to the religion of her family’s persecutors and then she turned on the Serbs - who had protected her family. I know from Prof. Sava Bosnitch that her father, Prof. Korbel, was passionately pro-Serb. Thus the one thing we can say about Albright is her behavior in rejecting her Jewishness matches her behavior in betraying those who saved her, the Serbs. Yet you and others persist in describing her as a Jew. Isn’t that remarkable?
When it comes to Jews I do find it macabre that you do not notice the most obvious facts. You say that Kosovo Serbs have been subjected to a reign of Islamic terror. Quite true. You even say that Israel has been subjected to a reign of Islamic terror but then, you forget this true statement when you write: “In contrast Israel steals land - the ‘wall’ carving out huge chunks of land from the West Bank territory of the subjugated Palestinians - arbitrarily murders Palestinian representatives in their own territory and even bombs neighbouring sovereign states: With impunity.”
Israel is not stealing land. Gaza and the West Bank were conquered in a war of survival against states which pledged, as the Egyptian dictator Nasser put it, to enter a land whose sand was drenched in Jewish blood. After that war, the Arabs refused Israel’s offer to return the West Bank to Jordan and Gaza to Egypt in exchange for a pledge of peace. Since that war, the Arab states have supported the most extreme terrorist attacks on Israel, stemming from the West Bank and Gaza.
What state would permit that? These terrorists are organized by the Palestinian Authority, just as NATO set up a terrorist-controlled government in Kosovo? The schools and mosques and mass media , controlled by the PA, teach suicide bombing as the highest good. How can you miss the fact that the wall does not exist for some evil goal of stealing Palestinian land because a) it is territory that Arabs had before 1967 used for terrorist attacks and which they then lost in a war of attempted extermination against the Jews and b) the inhabitants have been mobilized once again in a Nazi-like war of terror where the highest good is killing Jews. The wall is an attempt - probably doomed to failure - to keep the terrorists from infiltrating to blow up pizza parlors or buses full of workers or restaurants. Similarly, the leaders that Israel kills “in their own territories” (your words) are organizers of terrorist attacks. They have made it clear - in the founding documents of their organizations - that their goal is the slaughter of all Jews in Israel and they are acting on that goal. People who live by the sword do die by the sword. You preach legality - but only to one side, the victims of the terrorist attacks.
And what about these “neighboring sovereign states”? What a charming way to describe Syria which openly shelters and even *pays* the people who do exactly what the KLA does - and even worse because they are so fanatical they deliberately kill themselves as long as they can take some Jews with them. The Palestinian representatives whom you say Israel murders are organizers of these terrorist murders. Why do you seem to regret only their shed blood and the sovereignty of states bent on destroying Israeli sovereignty, and murdering all Jews, but never once express sympathy for the murdered Jews?
You claim the issue is subjugation of Palestinians, but that is not so. As Francisco Gil-White wrote:
Itamar Marcus has made a 20-minute film from PNA Television clips.[5] In one of the clips, two young girls are interviewed concerning their views of Shahida, which means dying for Allah or, in this case, dying as a suicide terrorist. The interviewer asks Walla, a child of 11:
"What are better, peace and full rights for the Palestinian people or Shahida?"
And the child, age 11, answers with a delightful smile, "Shahida. I will achieve my rights after becoming a Shahid." To which the interviewer nods, pleased with the reply.
On Palestinian Authority Television, sermons may routinely be seen which exhort "Blessings to whoever put a belt of explosives on his body or on his sons and plunged into the midst of Jews crying: 'Allah Akbar, praise to Allah'." You may see one such video for yourselves here:
http://stream.realimpact.net/rihurl.ram?file=realimpact/memri/memri_fridaysermon_01.rm
If Germany or the US had a population on its borders mobilized by terrorists who had already committed thousands of terrorist murders - would the leaders of the US and Germany treat them kindly? Indeed, would they agree to have negotiations so that these terrorists could have their own official state? Mr. Barak, former PM of Israel, recently called for a unilateral withdrawal of Israeli forces from the lands conquered in 1967. (He’s from the anti-Serb wing of Israeli politics, by the way.) If this were the US or Germany, Barak would be denounced as a traitor, which he is.
Yet you say the Jews are given special treatment. The US does give aid to Israel, but the US also stood by while half the European Jews were slaughtered. And as I noted, now the US joins European states in demanding of Israel what it demands of Serbia and few others states - that it have a terrorist state at its doorstep: a terrorist ‘state’ of Kosovo and a terrorist state of ‘Palestine’. The US and Europeans *sponsor* the Palestinian terrorists - giving them aid and massive CIA “training”. Meanwhile the US uses the aid given to Israel to foster a fifth column - the Israeli labor party and 'peace' movement are the equivalent of the Serbian quislings in DOS. This is not such good treatment especially when linked to the outrageous media lies, providing false justification for Palestinian terror, just as lies were used to justify KLA terror. Both are justified as *revenge*. You can see that that is true with the Serbs but you don’t notice with the Jews. Moreover, there is another idea being pushed, and hinted by you as well: namely the idea that the Jews constitute a sinister conspiracy.
How else am I to take your question about whether my "sensitivity" betrays a hidden agenda? In the real world, when people speak of the “hidden agenda” of Jewish people or refer to this or that supposedly “sinister fact” about Jews - as you do - they are of course appealing to the belief, widely taught in the West and Arab lands, that Jews are an evil conspiracy.
Your statement that I have a hidden agenda would be ludicrous if it did not stem from this image which people have learned about The Jews - it would be ludicrous because my agenda is anything but hidden. TENC has broadcast its agenda concerning anti-Semitism all over the Internet. We have a whole section of the website that deals with it exclusively. We published an article in which we announced why we were establishing that agenda . Could we be any *less* hidden?
Our agenda is: we realized a year ago that a) we were wrong about the Palestinians, that in fact their leaders are vicious racists and tools of the US-led Empire which uses the fabricated image of oppression of Palestinians to spread anti-Semitism *as a useful tool in politically controlling the world.* We realized that the effort to spread anti-Semitism was going on in highly accelerated fashion. We realized that the Empire’s goal was to make anti-Semitism the ideology of its opponents - just as Bush’s grandfather and great grandfather sponsored the Nazis, who also by the way bashed the US.
In other words, the US-led Empire wishes to have its opponents led by people who see The Jews - and not the Establishments of the US and Europe - as the problem. If Serbs fall for that, they are falling under the control of the the Empire.
Jared Israel
USA - Wednesday October 08, 2003 at 4:40 pm
"You have a fixation on Jews. That fixation is known as anti-Semitism."
1 2
Canada - Wednesday October 08, 2003 at 4:58 pm
A little bit of political influence
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La - Wednesday October 08, 2003 at 5:04 pm
"Jesus was a Jew"."Albright is not a Jew."
1 2
Canada - Wednesday October 08, 2003 at 5:13 pm
Just a small detail
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La - Wednesday October 08, 2003 at 5:13 pm
The anonymous "Gogol's" whitewash of Ramsey Clark is absurd. Clark went to Egypt and campaigned for Sheikh Rahman by holding press conference at the headquarters of gama'a al islamyaa, the monsters who sliced off ears at Luxor, fought in Afghanistan vs. Russians and Bosnia vs. Serbs. Thus he threw his weight as former Attorney General - this is how he is perceived in Egypt - behind the most vicious (and anti-Serb!) terrorist outfit in Egypt. This has nothing to do with providing free legal services. To argue that he did that because he felt bad because this guy didn't have a laywer, that is, for the same reason hospitals take in the indigent, insults our intelligence. In chosing to boost Rahman, Clark was choosing to a) boost a vicious Islamist who b) had worked with the CIA for years and c) to assist Rahman's fascis-terrorst organization in his homeland. .
Regarding D. Jovanovic's question, I suggest you read our articles on Clark at the National Press Club. As Mr. Krsljanin said in his conversation with me, he agreed that our criticisms of Clark's performance at the press club were correct - though he said (irrelevently) that Clark would never admit it.
Ramsey Clark Poses as Milosevic's Lawyer... ...and then smears the "client" on nationwide U.S. television and
Jared Israel
USA- Wednesday October 08, 2003 at 5:16 pm
OOPS - I put my name in place of the title of the second article, which is:
More on how Ramsey Clark Attacked Milosevic at the National Press Club"
Jared Israel
USA- Wednesday October 08, 2003 at 5:27 pm
"In America, Jews can’t do wrong, and whoever thinks otherwise, is branded an anti-Semite.""You have a fixation on Jews. That fixation is known as anti-Semitism."
"I just listened to the Ramsey Clark speech and answers to questions at the press club luncheon. I have not heard him mention Milosevic once in all 60 minutes of it."
"I suggest you read our articles on Clark at the National Press Club. As Mr. Krsljanin said in his conversation with me..."
1 2
Canada- Wednesday October 08, 2003 at 5:42 pm
"In America, Jews can’t do wrong, and whoever thinks otherwise, is branded an anti-Semite." --Stupidity from the anonymous.
If you say about me, "Jared Israel did wrong," then you may be correct or incorrect. But if you say about me, "That Jew did wrong, and the fact that he is a Jew and did wrong is sinister" then, yes, in the context of OUR WORLD (where we live!) you are indeed expressing anti-Semitism. It may be unwitting; prejudice is rarely known for its wit.
Jared Israel
USA- Wednesday October 08, 2003 at 7:44 pm
This anonymous 1 2 from Canada is obviously trying to proof one of the theses, or both of them, that
The Jews as a whole had an interest in waging war against Serbia,
are in control of the US government and society.
Both of them are nonsensical, the latter being anti-Semite paranoia and the former a lie. Besides of the general fact that The Jews do not exist as a monolithic block, it has also already been pointed out on this list that the Jews did not and still do not have any kind of unified position towards Serbia.
All of us who have been searching for the truth about NATO's war against Yugoslavia know the Ruder Finn campaign and how James Harff described it. They already had the aim to demonize the Serbs, and then tried to get the Jewish organizations on their side by making them believe the invented stories about Serb death camps etc. But this doesn't mean that the opinion of Jewish organizations was authorative in the sense that if the Jews say: Beat the Serbs! all others would say so, too. The simple reason is that many Jews had mistrusted the Bosnian Muslims led by Izetbegovic for understandable reasons and were therefore sympathetic with the Serbs. And claiming that the Serbs were committing a new Holocaust, with Jewish organizations disagreeing, is bad propaganda. So they had to be converted.
So the division of Serbs and Jews was an essential element of anti-Serb propaganda. And reading those anonymous attacks against the Jews on this list, I wonder what purpose they serve. What will be the effect of people spreading hatred against Jews among the supporters of President Milosevic? It will make the lies appear true that have been invented about Serbs. it will be an obstacle to restoration of the traditional unity between these two peoples and lastly to the victory of thruth.
Whether intentionally or not - I'll keep away from any discussions about accusing somebody or another one of being an agent - this anti-Semite campaign is doing great harm to the defence of President Milosevic, especially because he shares non of these views.
Sebastian Bahlo
Germany- Wednesday October 08, 2003 at 7:59 pm
For those who can digest this - I had to visit washroom after thisHello. I am glad to have this opportunity to speak directly to the people of Serbia at this critical time. As you can see, I remember a little Serbian -- albeit with a Czech accent -- from my days in Belgrade as a child. My father was a Czechoslovak diplomat there before the Second World War. When the Nazis invaded Czechoslovakia, my father escaped to Yugoslavia with his wife and baby -- me. I will never forget how we were warmly welcomed as friends in need of help. Americans do not hate Serbs. Like me, they remember that we were allies against Fascism. Like you, Americans want to live in peace with their neighbors and the wider world. Like Serbs, we have no wish to see our children die in battle far from home. And like the Serbs who gave their lives during the Second World War, Americans believe in freedom for all people. That is why we could not sit idly by while security forces were used to commit atrocities against ethnic Albanians in Kosovo. For ten years, the international community has tried to resolve the crisis without military action. For the last six months, Americans, Russians and Europeans worked together to seek a negotiated solution. That process produced the Rambouillet Accords. I believe the Serb people have not been accurately informed about what that plan would mean for them. It would help build democracy and protect the rights of everyone in Kosovo while leaving Kosovo within Serbia. And a NATO-led force would protect both Serb and Albanian civilians. Tragically, Serb leaders rejected the agreement, renewed the campaign of terror in Kosovo, and forced NATO to do what no one in the Alliance wanted to -- which is to begin airstrikes. NATO's objective is not to harm innocent Serbs, but to stop the attacks in Kosovo. We ask Serbia's leaders to do now what they promised last fall -- end the fighting and reduce their military presence. And they must accept a peace settlement based on the Rambouillet Accords, which are the last best hope for preserving a multi-ethnic Serbia in its present borders. The sooner a peace agreement is reached, the sooner your isolation can end -- and the sooner our peoples can work together again to build prosperity, democracy, and above all peace. I wish you well, and pray that your leaders will make it possible for peace to come soon.
Dakic Ana
Serbia- Wednesday October 08, 2003 at 8:03 pm
More on the same subject http://www.srpska-mreza.com/library/facts/Mad.html
Dakic Ana
Serbia- Wednesday October 08, 2003 at 8:21 pm
Terrrorism?
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La- Wednesday October 08, 2003 at 8:21 pm
Jared IsraelWhen one speaks of the "Jews" one does not necessarily speak of every Jew in the world. Just as when one speaks of the Catholics, one does not refer to every Catholic. One simply refers to the LEADERSHIP of the Jews or Catholics, as in the JWC or the Vatican, for instance. Unfortunately, both of these groups are extremely powerful (unless you want to argue the point) and neither appears to be as naive and as benevolent as their precepts would suggest. Yes, the majority of Jews and Catholics for instance are good, decent people. Just as are the majority of Serbs or Croats or Muslims or whatever. Unfortunately these same good and decent people get tainted with the same brush as the manipulative politicians who run such organisations such as the JWC and the Vatican and who profess to speak for their so called "constituencies". A bit like saying the democrats or the republicans are judged by the policies and actions of their leadership. It is an unfortunate problem but one that can only be fixed by the members of those constituencies STANDING UP and TELLING their leaders that they are on the wrong course or to change their directions.
I have yet to see a murmur of dissent on a widespread basis. Pretty much most of the Jewish organisations world-wide have taken an anti-Serb approach. Now why would that be? Who is controlling these organisations? The Jews or the US establishment?
You know full well the power of lobby groups on the US political scene. You know full well the power of groups such as the JWC and other Jewish organisations on the US political scene. Are you trying to tell me that the establishment controls these Jewish organisations to their own detriment? Or are you trying to say that these same Jewish organisations have been misled, have had the wool pulled over their eyes and are blindly following the establishment's policies?
Or are you putting the cart before the horse? Or are there other reasons why the Jewish Establishment finds it appropriate to slag on the Serbs?
Maybe you disagree with such Jewish organisations and their approach to the Serbs, but hey!... you seem to be in the minority. In which case one could say that you are a GOOD Jew as opposed to a BAD Jew. And that could put you in the same category as a good citizen and human being or a bad citizen or human being.
Whatever the case, you come out as a Jewish maverick, at least as far as most Jewish organisations are concerned and I empathise with your situation in so much as you are pushing s*** up the hill. Just like the rest of us.
The spokesmen and leaders of the Jewish organisations may be fewer in number than the ordinary Jewish folk but they have the clout. What they do reflects on ALL Jews and could be one of the principal causes of anti-Semitism, among other factors of course.
So how do you fix that? At the grass roots level, I would suggest.
Please explain to me how SO MANY Jewish organisations have managed to get it SO WRONG about Milosevic and the Serb position in YU. Please explain to me where are these organisations when it comes to the ethnic cleansing of Serbs in Croatia, Bosnia or Kosovo? Where are these organisations when it comes to the travesty of justice and the lynching of Serbs at the Hague? Keeping silent like the Vatican... NOW as in the 1930s and 1940s?
Of all the racial, ethnic, religious and political organisations, they would appreciate best what such silence represents!
David
Oztralia- Wednesday October 08, 2003 at 8:30 pm
Australia tells it
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-LA- Wednesday October 08, 2003 at 8:32 pm
Not bad:
Israel has its own special way of recognizing the achievements of its great terrorists-by electing them its prime minister.
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La- Wednesday October 08, 2003 at 8:39 pm
Dear Jared IsraelWe share a common purpose: to expose the criminal actions of those who are responsible for the disaster which has befallen Serbia especially in the province of Kosovo. In this I admire the magnificent work you have done. And I do not condone the loathsome comments your posts here have attracted from some other contributors.
My own view is that the principal villain in all this is Britain’s Prime Minister Blair. Although the Clinton administration had the power it could never have proceeded without Blair’s arm-twisting of the other Nato leaders in Europe.
Your comments about Jews confuse me. My own, no doubt ignorant, understanding of what it is to be Jewish is like a nationality without a territory: at least until Israel was established. But Jews seem to know who they are just like Scots or Serbs. Your comments seem to imply that it is a religion: that I could become a Jew by renouncing my agnosticism and taking up Judaism?
This is counter to my experience. My father’s sister was married to a Jew and he was excommunicated for marrying a Christian but he still regarded himself as Jewish. I have socialised, worked with and for those who claimed to be Jewish of various degrees of faith from fairly strict orthodoxy to agnosticism like myself. As for Albright some of her comments to Jewish audiences refer to Israel as the homeland.
You are wrong in fixing the label Anti-Semite to me and I believe that you, like Godfred from the opposite end of the spectrum, are reading more into my comments than was intended.
We will never agree on the Palestinians’ entitlement to land for I agree with many of your fellow Jews who take a different view and with the many unimplemented UN resolutions attempting to solve the problems there. But I will reply to two of your comments. You appear to be claiming that the Palestinians have no rights to any land: if so that cannot be just. A legitimate implementation of the security wall would be for it to be built along the agreed territorial lines and separately surrounding the settlements: until the legality of the settlements is resolved.
One final point concerning your ultimate comment:
“In other words, the US-led Empire wishes to have its opponents led by people who see The Jews - and not the Establishments of the US and Europe - as the problem.”
But “the US-led Empire” was itself being led during the Clinton administration by American Jews supported by American Jewish Organisations: promoting Islamism in Kosovo and making as you claim “anti-Semitism the ideology of its opponents”.
Now do you understand my incomprehension and thus my quest for answers?
Peter Taylor
Herts/UK- Wednesday October 08, 2003 at 8:41 pm
Dakic AnaMadeleine Albright Korbel so loves the Serbs she can't resist them nor keep her hands off them. When she made a pass at Milosevic, he wasn't too keen on her and the rest is history.
"Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned!"
(Personally, I think he made the right move, I too would rather get life at the Hague than kiss her butt)
Butt Lover
Buttswana- Wednesday October 08, 2003 at 8:58 pm
Appropos the alleged kinship between Serbs and Jews, and Yugoslavia and Israel, the following urls are illuminating:http://www.ictr.org/ENGLISH/factsheets/meron.htm
http://www.b92.net/intervju/eng/2003/meron.php
And here is Milosevic himself speaking at the Hague Tribunal (http://www.un.org/icty/transe54/020926IT.htm):
However, it is quite clear that Rudder Finn was not that successful because, as they had put it, masterfully carried through all these promotion tricks.
What made the efforts of this firm effective is the receptiveness of the Western media. They were going along with the suggestions of those who were making political moves in Washington, Bonn, the Vatican, and they themselves were creating an anti-Serb atmosphere many months before the Rudder Finn campaign.
However, Jewish organisations did not accept this story because they were simply gullible and only because of this masterfully executed job by Rudder Finn; this was also due to the interest they had. They wanted to repel the fury of the Arab states, the Muslim states to anyone, and in this case it was deflected to the Serbs.
And that is how they repaid the Serbs for the protection of Jews in the Second World War, in which in the occupied territories of the Balkans it was only Serbs in Serbia who, at the cost of their own lives, managed to protect them from pogroms.
And they themselves know that. They are ashamed of that, at least those who talked to me. And I hope that some of them are going to testify about this here.
Robert Hessen
Seattle
Washington- Wednesday October 08, 2003 at 9:45 pm
"The anonymous "Gogol's" whitewash of Ramsey Clark is absurd.""Stupidity from the anonymous."
"You idiot"
"In America, Jews can’t do wrong, and whoever thinks otherwise, is branded an anti-Semite or self-hating Jew. By proving the Jewish origin of the alleged faults of Islam, we therefore proved that the Islam-bashers are anti-Semites and probably hidden Holocaust deniers."
Israel Shamir: Maidens and Warriors .
"The Jews as a whole had an interest in waging war against Serbia...Both of them are nonsensical... and the former a lie.
"American Jews have uniformly greeted the Serbian brutality in Kosovo with outrage... They commended NATO for bombing quickly rather than ignoring the brutality as Allied leaders did during the Holocaust. By Daniel Plotz"
"In America, Jews can’t do wrong."
"How can we understand that the Jewish establishment was sucked into the antiSerbian machine so easily? They have nothing to be proud of. Like sheep they accepted Harff's claims, without making the slightest effort to verify the claims. They knew that Harff was paid to do a job. And the rest of the world, like sheep, followed the Jews, as who can be more expert on Nazism than the Jews?"
1 2
Canada- Wednesday October 08, 2003 at 9:52 pm
Robert Hessen
The unity between Serbs and Jews is not only alleged, it is, or at least was real.
What President Milosevic said in his reply to the Prosecution's opening statement regarding the Croatia and Bosnia indictment and what you quoted: They are ashamed of that, at least those who talked to me - matches the point. It was the development of public opinion in which some Jewish organizations played a sad role, but many individual Jews are ashamed of it.
Now, whether a Jew is for or against Serbia, believing or not believing lies, would be of small interest if mankind would consist only of sensible persons. I am not writing my comments with the intention to glorify the Jews. I am writing this in response to people who are obviously trying to condemn the Jews.
As it has been pointed out above on this list, there is a certain problem in saying who is a Jew. The people who consider themselves to be Jews can neither be defined by religion nor by race. They have been defined for at least one century through anti-Semitism.
There is many a 'Jew' who is neither religious nor familiar with Jewish culture, but calls himself Jewish. Why? Because he knows that otherwise he would cowardly escape anti-Semitism without doing anything to solve this problem. If the issue of Jews would only be a religious problem, there would be no need to deal with it here, as we're not dealing with Christianity. But it is an ideological problem, which can be clearly seen, if somebody here refutes anti-Semite lies and is subsequently accused of glorifying the Jews, as happended to some participants.
Sebastian Bahlo
Germany- Wednesday October 08, 2003 at 10:02 pm
A bid of reading may help
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La- Wednesday October 08, 2003 at 10:03 pm
A bid of reading may help
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La- Wednesday October 08, 2003 at 10:14 pm
"Karl Marx was not a Jew, unless you believe this has to do with the massive Jewish conspiracy, he was a German."
1 2
Canada- Wednesday October 08, 2003 at 10:27 pm
What Is Meant By The Self-Determination Of Nations?
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La- Wednesday October 08, 2003 at 10:29 pm
"If I weren't a Jew, I might be called an anti-Semite. I have occasionally been critical of Israel."
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Canada- Wednesday October 08, 2003 at 10:29 pm
Mr. Hessen uses a quote from Milosevic to justify his (Hessen's)apparent contention that the kinship between Serbs and Jews is a myth. I will comment on the Milosevic quote in a moment, but note that Hessen amazingly leaves out Milosevic’s last sentence. Commenting on the shame that he says politically aware Jews feel over the role of the American Jewish organizations who condemned the Serbs, Milosevic says: "Precisely because of this enormous help given to the Jews and also this brotherhood between peoples, not states. That was between the Serb people and the Jewish people."
So, as far as Milosevic is concerned this kinship is real. As far as I am concerned too - my experience making a speech to 50,000 people in Belgrade was that when I said I was an American Jew and I wanted to thank the Serbs for what they did for the Jews in world war two, they roared their approval.I never expereienced anything like that in my life. Afterwards literally hundreds of people beseiged me, trying to show me pictures of their relatives who had protected Jews.They even tried to carry me on their shoulders.
In his comments at the Tribunal, Milosevic also said that Jewish organizations in the US had an "interest" in going along with Rudder Finn. "They wanted to repel the fury of the Arab states, the Muslim states to anyone, and in this case it was deflected to the Serbs."
And then he says, "And that is how they repaid the Serbs for the protection of Jews in the Second World War, in which in the occupied territories of the Balkans it was only Serbs in Serbia who, at the cost of their own lives, managed to protect them from pogroms."
Regarding the protection that Serbs gave Jews in World War II, I believe Milosevic is 100% correct.
But Milosevic makes two mistakes here. First, he speaks - in common with so many - as if "The Jews" constitute a homogenous block. First of all, most American Jews know nothing about Yugoslav jews or what the Serbs did to help them in World War II. In fairness, this is partly because the Tito government suppressed the story. I knew about it somewhat from my father, who was an anti-Fascist activist, and found out more from a Yugoslav Jew, a math professor in Vermont, who sent me the letter a Yugoslav Jewish doctor wrote about it in 1942.
Second, American Jewish leaders are not thinking in terms of deflecting Muslim wrath. They are part of the machinery which also includes feminist leaders and liberal Democratic leaders who are not Jewish, and Republican leaders and union leaders - this whole organizational machinery tightly controlled by this Establishment. *ALL* these leaders condemned the Serbs.
The section of Jews who took part in this bashing were *not* the militant defenders of Israel, who might be expected to wish to deflect Muslim wrath. They were the people *who also advocate a Palestinian state.* This is a crucial point. In other words, these people not only betray the Serbs, but they also betray Israel.
It is the hard core defenders of Israel who have also defended the Serbs. They may not have Emperor’s Clothes politics - they rarely have Emperor’s Clothes politics, as this article I shall link to makes clear - but this article on the Zionist Website Arutz Sheva also shows that the hard core zionists tend to be pro-Serb. (Scroll down on their page to "Support Serbia")This can be seen in the work Israel did in support of the Bosnian Serbs - which really does contradict President Milosevic’s point (and by the way the Israelis did more to help the Bosnian Serbs then is commonly believed, or so I was told by people in Serbia who were involved.)
Moreover, when the bombing of Kosovo began it was Sharon who tried to get Israel to be pro-Serb or at least neutral. The US came down on him like a ton of bricks. Again, after the bombing, it was Israel, alone in the world that gave Yugoslavia access to its satellite. Again they were attacked by the US.
The point is, the US Empire has an apparatus. It includes in that apparatus various forces. Among them are Jews of the Peace Now stripe, who are pro-PLO in the Middle East and pro-KLA and Izetbegovic in Yugoslavia. Making the mistake of seeing the Jews as a block, Milosevic, like many other people, fails to see these nuances.
Similar point to Peter Taylor. The US having an immense Jewish educated class, there are indeed many Jews in government. So what? The thing that is striking about them is the extent to which they oppose Israeli interests just as much as their non-Jewish compatriots. For example, Mr. Wolfowitz strongly supports the Roadmap for Peace, which is a prescription for the destruction of Israel. Zionists loathe him. *None* of the Jews in the Bush administration attacked Prince Naif of Saudi Arabia when he blamed “the Jews” for 9-11. These are career Imperialists, not “the jews”.
By the way, I have spent most of my time for the past five years trying to repay the debt that I and all Jews owe to the Serbs. Indeed, that all humans who don’t want to live under German Nazism owe to the Serbs, who stopped the Nazis. I don’t think what Milosevic said was correct in this particular case - he is human, you know, and has a right, like of all of us, to err - but I can certainly understand how the activities of the anti-Serb Jewish leaders have made Serbs, including Milosevic feel. It was a terrible blow for every Serb to see prominent American Jewish organizations associate themselves with the whitewashing of the Bosnian Islamist attack on the Serbs, and the demonization of the Serbs who, once again, stood up to fascism and took the brunt of the assault.
Jared Israel
USA- Wednesday October 08, 2003 at 10:35 pm
The part of the above text which linked to the pro-Serb article disappeared. Here is the relevant paragraph, hopefully inclusive this time.
It is the hard core defenders of Israel who have also defended the Serbs. They may not have Emperor’s Clothes politics - they rarely have Emperor’s Clothes politics, as this article I shall link to makes clear - but this article on the Zionist Website Arutz Sheva also shows that the hard core zionists tend to be pro-Serb. This can be seen in the work Israel did in support of the Bosnian Serbs - which really does contradict President Milosevic’s point. Moreover, when the bombing of Kosovo began it was Sharon who tried to get Israel to be pro-Serb or at least neutral. The US came down on him like a ton of bricks. Again, after the bombing, it was Israel, alone in the world that gave Yugoslavia access to its satellite. Again they were attacked by the US.
Jared Israel
USA- Wednesday October 08, 2003 at 10:35 pm
"It was a publicity group. It is *very* important that its leaders express Milosevic's views accurately.""But Milosevic makes two mistakes here."
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Canada- Wednesday October 08, 2003 at 10:47 pm
"I don’t think what Milosevic said was correct in this particular case."
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Canada- Wednesday October 08, 2003 at 10:50 pm
"Making the mistake of seeing the Jews as a block, Milosevic, like many other people, fails to see these nuances."
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Canada- Wednesday October 08, 2003 at 11:04 pm
"American Jewish leaders are not thinking in terms of deflecting Muslim wrath.""The American Jewish Committee has demonstrated a profound commitment to enhancing relations between Jews and Muslims, a vital part of its fundamental dedication to the promotion of interreligious understanding in the United States and around the world. Rejecting the inevitability of a "clash of civilizations," AJC has instead insisted on the possibility of a "community of civilizations" by encouraging dialogue on the highest levels with like-minded groups committed to fostering tolerance and cooperation."
"A high-level AJC delegation travels to Macedonia at the start of the Kosovar refugee crisis to bear witness and show solidarity and support for Muslims forced to flee their homes."
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Canada- Wednesday October 08, 2003 at 11:45 pm
Jared said:
By the way, I have spent most of my time for the past five years trying to repay the debt that I and all Jews owe to the Serbs.Jared -- You are all right but it is not up to you to make apologies. You know, as a left winger, that one outstanding individual cannot make up for the collective. No matter how great your efforts, or ours, we will change nothing. A Jewish collective apology for letting themselves be used by their unscrupulous and dumb leaders would be a bombshell. They turned the current of History against the Serbs (Re: Ruder Finn), and with the same persuasive power they can reverse the current of world opinion. Why? Because so unexpected. They have no choice but to attempt it if they don't want to lose forever the only friend -- or at least non-enemy -- they had in the world. I'm talking of course about the people not a particular government. The majority of Jews are ignorant of their responsibility for the situation. It's mostly among the Jews you have to shed the light.
Z. S.
Canada - Wednesday October 08, 2003 at 5:16 pm