MILOSEVIC TRIAL DISCUSSION ARCHIVE

Is Slobodan Milosevic getting a fair trial?
————————————————————————————
NOTICE: Comments posted to this discussion board are solely the responsibility of individual posters, and not of JURIST, its owner, operators, host or staff. JURIST reserves the right to block or remove posts that are in violation of law or that advocate illegal acts, that are obscene, disruptive, defamatory, threatening, harassing or abusive, that are in breach of intellectual property rights, rights of publicity or rights of privacy, that are advertisements or solicitations, or that are not related to the topic being discussed.
————————————————————————————

• discussion archive

• Sunday October 12, 2003 at 12:26 am
  Number 12 writes “"But the ICDSM is *not* a mass organization”. I remember seeing a list of over 1000 names of PROMINENT individuals from every corner of the world and their submissions opposing the Hague farce. They were members, if I remember correctly, of the ICDSM. If anyone on this forum has access to the list (web page) for our BORG friend (12 of fifteen) would you post it please?
  
  walter trkla
  kamloops bc
  canada

• Sunday October 12, 2003 at 1:09 am
  12 Canada

  What the f*** are you trying to say? Quit posting quotes from other people and try for an intelligent and comprehensible comment for a change. Otherwise save us the space.
  
  David
  Oztralia

• Sunday October 12, 2003 at 3:25 am
  Peter Taylor,

  I am certainly sorry if you are offended. But your point about Cohen, Rubin, and Albright being Jews is totally irrelevant, unless you are claiming the exsistance of some sort of Jewish consperacy, and I don't think you are.

  I can't figure out why you are singleing out the Jews? You can't seriously be saying that Christians, Muslims, Athiests didn't have anything to do with the destruction of Yugoslavia?

  Did some sort of special "Jew blood" pulse through Cohen, Rubin, and Albright's veins and make them do evil things? I know you don't believe that.

  They were offcials in the American Government, they committed their crimes as officials in the American Government, and for your information they were appointed to their positions in the American Government by a Christian Protestant.

  The truth is that people from many different religions took part in the destruction of Yugoslavia. Certainly there were Jews who took part, but it wasn't a Jewish consperacy. Evil people got together and did evil things, and you can find evil people in every religion. Jews are just like everybody else.

  There are even Serbs who were willing to sell-out their own country and their own people. Look at DOS, and organizations like OPTOR. They're a collection of Quislings. Belgrade is infested with NGOs, these people are Serbs by ethnicity, and they're actively trying to destroy everything that is Serbian and everything that is Yugoslav. They destroyed their own state. They're nothing but whores just like Cohen, Rubin, and Albright.

  When I was in Belgrade I saw them cutting the Yugoslav coat of arms down off of the flag poles in front of the federal parliament building, and for days after that the national symbol of Yugoslavia just sat cut up into pieces lying broken on the sidewalk. If nothing else it was a metaphor for the country.
  
  Andy Wilcoxson
  Washington, United States

• Sunday October 12, 2003 at 6:24 am
  From b92: "Lord Owen’s attendance at the trial was requested on September 3, but as B92 unofficially learns, the former diplomat had asked that he appear not as a witness for the prosecution but as a court witness" Is it possible that it is an attempt to quit Milosevic, to send him back home and consequently to save the Clinton's ,Blair'and Co. asses??
  
  serjoe b
  Italy

• Sunday October 12, 2003 at 7:20 am
  They were offcials in the American andy said-Government, they committed their crimes as officials in the American Government, and for your information they were appointed to their positions in the American Government by a Christian Protestant.

  Bill Clinton is a Jesuit chameleon and only professed protestanism for political reasons. How else could he partake in the mass, a rite forbiden to us unclean Baptist.

  You must admit that having Jews in prominent positions lent credibility to the farce that we were preventing a holocaust.

  Evil people indeed Andy, yet me thinks that old whore on seven hills is rearing it's ugly head again. Her methods and Agendas are unmistakable. As history repeats itself, the book "The secret history of the Jesuits" is a must read, and puts much of our current history in perspective.

  By the way Andy, remember that Arafat is an Egyptian Catholic.
  
  Joel Aksamit
  USA

• Sunday October 12, 2003 at 12:43 pm
  Walter Trkla -- where did you read that I accuse Jared of being dishonest? Honesty, dishonesty is not the topic. I only accused Jared of being clumsy and provoking the sensibility of a very wounded people. In my opinion, Jared, like yourself perhaps, is wrong to globalize the issue. You are right that it is all part of global policy, but it is also true that each battle has to be carried out locally. Trotsky lost and Stalin won because he understood that internationalism doesn't work; this is what killed Che Guevara as well. Non-Serbs should not bring other issues to the Serbs. If somebody mourns his relative killed in an accident, would you talk about statistics? It is known that Dr. Korchak accompanied children to the gas chamber, telling them that they were going to the countryside -- which they'd never seen because they were urban ghetto children. In a Polish Communist paper there was a critique that you shouldn't lie to children. Somebody sent a letter to the editor: "Should he have talked to the children about Marxism?" Leave global problems to philosophers. As for myself, I'm mostly interested in tactical local solutions. In desperate situations even the most improbable tasks have to be considered. In Polish they say, 'the drowning person will grab at a razor.' For me, the only solution is to awaken the Jewish conscience to what has been done to the Serbs in the name of the Jews. I see Jared as the eventual candidate for this because he is a Jew (especially with a name like 'Israel'' it will look good in a letter in the NYT) and second because he really dedicates his life to the Serbian cause. But to accomplish anything he has to be visible first of all among the Jews. To achieve this, in my opinion, he should look for support among religious Jews. Why? Because in the eyes of even non religious Jews they have moral authority and they are naturally open to moral issues. Anyway, the Zionists are excluded because you can't distract them from their Zionist agenda and because they are in the grip of the main Jewish organizations that dealt the mortal blow to the Serbs.

  Jared shouldn't underscore Serbian bitterness toward the Jews. He has to forget, for an instant, his Jewishness. Only then will he become open to which extent the Balkan and Mediterranean traditions of persisting memory prevail in the region. Only the Jews can heal the indescribable wound created by those who used the Jews.

  May I quote another example. A repenting Hindu man came to Gandhi, crying that he killed the Muslims. Gandhi answered him, "Find a Muslim orphan, adopt him, and raise him as a Muslim."

  The man came to Gandhi with his conscience already awakened. Jewish opinion has to be stirred to understand that being used as instrument of crime makes them a part of the crime and they must do something about it.

  
  
  W. Markiewicz
  Canada

• Sunday October 12, 2003 at 3:14 pm
  "...try for an intelligent and comprehensible comment..."

  "Bill Clinton is a Jesuit chameleon and only professed protestanism for political reasons. How else could he partake in the mass, a rite forbiden to us unclean Baptist."
  
  1 2
  Canada

• Sunday October 12, 2003 at 3:18 pm
  "But the ICDSM is *not* a mass organization." - Jared Israel.

  "I remember seeing a list of over 1000 names of PROMINENT individuals from every corner of the world." - Walter Trkla.

  "I am sure that Jared is well capable of defending his position."

  "Walter Trkla -- where did you read that I accuse Jared of being dishonest?"
  
  1 2
  Canada

• Sunday October 12, 2003 at 3:37 pm
  "...try for an intelligent and comprehensible comment..."

  "Arafat is an Egyptian Catholic."
  
  1 2
  Canada

• Sunday October 12, 2003 at 3:41 pm
  "YASSER Arafat is universally regarded as an Arab nationalist intent on establishing a secular, democratic Palestinian state. But the fact, is he is not. Arafat is a Muslim. And it is his faith that is central to his vision, and drives his cause."
  
  6 8
  Canada

• Sunday October 12, 2003 at 5:26 pm
  On Oct 10th Mr. W. Markiewicz writes that “I don't believe he can succeed but at least an honest try would be welcomed”. By this comment I felt that you were saying that Jared was dishonest by omission. Fredric the Great said that “he who defends everything defends nothing” a parallel can be made with myself as you point out by blaming everyone I blame no one and the battle is lost. I think that I am very specific in identifying who is to blame. The fact that this (Balkans) fit into a global agenda of the Great Powers must be exposed. Who is to blame for the death of civilians when terrorists use them as shields? Who is to blame for the destruction of national monuments during civil strife when these monuments are used as sanctuaries by one side? NATO has blamed the Serbs but international law states that the culpability is with those who use such strategies. It seems to me that looting of the Baghdad museum and the destruction of Iraqi national monuments is OK for America and Israel in Palastine and Russia in Chechnya but not for the Serbs. It is these kinds of inconsistencies that I wish to expose. It is not my desire to muddy the waters by globalizing the issue.

  I am afraid that I don’t agree with your analysis of the Trotsky-Stalin struggle. Once in power Stalin implemented with a vengeance all of Trotsky’s policies. The popularity of Trotsky did not die with the ice pick nor did Trotsky’s ideas. In a similar way it was not internationalism that killed Che but American bullets in hopes of silencing the struggle of the Latinos. That struggle goes on as we write .

  Mr. Markiewicz you write “I'm mostly interested in tactical local solutions”. Good and well but when events such as those in Yugoslavia are imposed from the outside the solution is not local but international. International community is a hostage of the ‘veto’ powers and USA that controls the purse strings that is why they are answerable to no one and their government hated by everyone.

  I am sure that Jared has written his share of letters to the NYT as many of us have to our national news media. Unfortunately we are just blowing in the wind. I saw an interview with Izzy Assper and Alan Dershowitz's , two prominent Jews who support what Israel is doing in the Middle East and yet they were very silent on the injustice at the Hague. Dershowitz supports assassinating world leaders such as Saddam Hussein and Arafat. A lawyer, renowned internationally, supports the idea of summary execution and Wild West justice. What hope does international justice have when people like this are interviewed? Michael Lerner on the other hand, also a Jew, was appalled by Dershowitz's comments. I would like to know how Jared sees Lerner and his position on the Jewish/Palestinian question.

  Mr. M. you want Jared to forget his Jewishness. That is not possible since we are all a product of the culture that we live in. On the other hand, the thing you want Jared to do among the Jews you need to do among the Poles since the Serbs are very bitter with the Polish culpability in the attack on their nation. How do you expect the Jews to be Serbian friends when our brothers the Polish Slavs have been one of the main supporters of NATO policies in the Balkans? The Poles blinded by Catholicism and fear of Russia have become the vanguard of NATO expansion to the East. The German Drang nach Osten has become the Polish mission. Maybe you can awaken the Polish consciousness in the same way you want Jared to awaken the Jewish consciousness and in a small way both of you will serve the cause of international justice.
  
  Walter Trkla
  Kamloops BC
  Canada

• Sunday October 12, 2003 at 6:04 pm
  "I fear you are afflicted with a prejudice that blinds. "The Jews" do not exist as a block."

  "Mr. M. you want Jared to forget his Jewishness. That is not possible since we are all a product of the culture that we live in."

  "It is these kinds of inconsistencies that I wish to expose."
  
  3 7
  Canada

• Sunday October 12, 2003 at 8:20 pm
  "Only the Jews can heal the indescribable wound created by those who used the Jews."

  "With the founding the Serbian-Jewish Friendship Society in 1988 a “functionalization” of Jews-that is, the use of Jews, Jewish symbols, and the Holocaust for political manipulation-took place. The society was established by a group of Serbian nationalistic intellectuals and a few members of the Jewish community. Financially supported directly and indirectly by the government, the society became part of the propaganda machine of the internal wars in Yugoslavia. During propaganda trips to Israel and the United States, an enormous quantity of public statements were made in support of Karadziæ and Serb paramilitary groups in Bosnia and Croatia. Especially in attempts to legitimize Serbian ethno-nationalism, the speakers of the society compared themselves to the Jews in terms of being internationally isolated and enduring sanctions against the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. The society's activities were never supported by any Jewish institution in Serbia. In public appearances between 1991-1995, speakers from the society presented a rosy view of the past, according to which there had never been any antisemitism in Serbia or among the Serbs but only eternal love and a special relationship and friendship between the Serbian nation and Jewish people at all times and everywhere. Speakers for the society made the general impression that support for the Serbian nationalistic agenda was being made in the name of the Jews of Serbia. The targets of SJFS harassment were public figures in Serbia, including some Jewish intellectuals critical of Serbian nationalism and the role played by Serbia in the civil war in Bosnia and Herzegovina."
  
  1 3
  Canada

• Sunday October 12, 2003 at 8:28 pm
  "Moreover you and everyone else persists in saying Albright is Jewish. But as I pointed out, she converted to Catholicism. That is she converted to the religion which in an organized way took part in the slaughter of East European Jews -Albright’s relatives."

  "Not only has the Serbian Patriarch celebrated Holy Mass for the war criminals Ljotic and Nedic, but from time to time Velimirovic 's antisemitism reappears in church publications. For example, in December 1994, Logos, the review of the students of the Serbian Orthodox seminary in Belgrade, published a notorious antisemitic text written by the journal editors. Quoting Bishop Velimirovic and the Protocols, they wrote about “Jewish power” and a “world-wide Jewish conspiracy against Orthodox Christianity, primarily against the Serbian and Russian peoples.” When it became known, there was a very strong public reaction against the article's antisemitism, including a petition signed by leading nationalist and Orthodox intellectuals that was published in the largest daily newspaper, Politika."
  
  7 4
  Canada

• Sunday October 12, 2003 at 8:30 pm
  "In post-communist FR Yugoslavia, the Serbian Orthodox Church actively supports attempts to rehabilitate war criminals like the fascist leader Ljotic, as well as the head of the Serbian administration under the German occupation, General Nedic, and the Chetnik leader General Draza Mihajlovic. All of them, as well as Bishop Velimirovic to different degree, were active antisemites. Ljotic was not only an antisemitic writer, but his troops actively aided the Germans during the Holocaust (as well as in other repressive measures against the Serbian population). The Serbian quisling, Milan Nedic, legitimized deportation of the Jewish population (as well as repression against the Serbs), and helped the Germans to deport Serbian Jewry to German-run camps in 1941-1942. Velimirovic was an antisemitic propagandist, and Chetnik leader Mihajlovic treated Jews as Communist agents. The link between restoration of the old symbols and myths of ethno-nationalism, in which the antisemitism of the “hero” is irrelevant is typical not only of Serbian nationalism but of all recent extreme-Right ethno-nationalisms in Eastern Europe."
  
  59 3
  Canada

• Sunday October 12, 2003 at 8:34 pm
  "the use of Jews, Jewish symbols, and the Holocaust for political manipulation"
  
  65 43
  Canada

• Sunday October 12, 2003 at 8:59 pm
  "Anti-Semitism is a Soviet-style word, an all-purpose accusation, and naturally the Soviet Union declared anti-Semitism a capital crime. Since it defies definition, it can’t be falsified or refuted. In this court, as in a Stalinist show trial, there are no acquittals. Once you’re accused, you’re as good as convicted."
  
  2 1
  Canada

• Sunday October 12, 2003 at 9:22 pm
  1234567890.- I don't give a flying f... for your version of WWII history and for your info Gral.Mihajlovic had a statue erected to his memory in the U.S . And it wasn't because of all the nonsense you are trying to sell. and if you have any problems with semitism (pro or anti) this is not the place to ventilate it , so please stick to the issue "is Milosevic having a fair trial?" , otherwise "ship off" . (A very personal opinion)
  
  M P
  Rep de Panama

• Sunday October 12, 2003 at 11:04 pm
  "ironically a flying fuck seems like quite a committment of energy, & not at all a minimal effort as implied by the idiom"
  
  3 2
  Canada

• Monday October 13, 2003 at 12:53 am
  Moderator, would you kindly delete the nonsense comments by 32, or 12 or whatever it is he/she is calling himself/herself.
  
  Dan B
  Canada

• Monday October 13, 2003 at 3:14 am
  Just as an aside, Draza Mihajlovic and his forces were very decent people. They were demonized after the war by Tito, and lumped together with Nedic (a quisling) and Ljotic (a fascist). Mihajlovic represented the King, and Chetnik is a generic term for fighter.

  However, the manipulation of semantics by Tito, the Hague, and others is nothing new to this part of the world.

  
  
  P M
  USA

• Monday October 13, 2003 at 4:43 am
  I am getting information from Serbia that B-92 has stopped broadcasting the Milosevic "trial."

  B-92 is the only broadcaster in Serbia that broadcasts the trial. Most Serbs don't have the internet, and the Hague Tribunal dosen't publish Serbian-language transcripts.

  This decision means that the "trial" will be practically hidden from the Serbian public.

  From the information I have, the decision was made to discontinue the broadcasts on October 8th.

  I am working on trying to get better information.
  
  Andy Wilcoxson
  Washington, United States

• Monday October 13, 2003 at 7:12 am
  person 59 3 Canada and other numbers he is using - That may be so, but I did not see Pope inpreasoned in Dahau and Serban Patriarh Dr. Gavrilo Dozic was. How dare you saing that Serbian Church is antisemitic???
  
  Dakic Ana
  Serbia

• Monday October 13, 2003 at 7:26 am
  
  Is Judge Richard May biased or just stupid?

  Milosevic is on trial at The Hague accused of ordering his forces to use indiscriminate and disproportionate force in combating a terror campaign by Islamists in the southern province of Kosovo. So indiscriminate and so disproportionate as to warrant charges of serious crimes against humanity.

  This campaign of terror was supported not only by bin Laden’s al-Qaeda including Mujahedin fighters but also by the Anglo/US administrations of those days. Some 1,000 of Kosovo’s minority populations, including hundreds of policemen, were killed in the two years leading up to the Nato attack and some 2,000 Kosovars: It is not clear how many of these Kosovars were murdered by the KLA.

  In combating an insurgency in Iraq Blair’s coalition forces behave as follows:

  The only way to respond, they say, is by following new, merciless rules of engagement stated one night last week by Lt. Peter Katzfey in front of 299 Engineer Battalion soldiers preparing for a night patrol in Tikrit:

  "Shoot to kill. No questions asked."

  Major Robert Isabella, a public affairs officer of the Fourth Infantry Division based in Tikrit, elaborated. "This is war. Someone shoots from a window, we're gonna put 100 rounds in it. Somebody runs a checkpoint, we're gonna fire on that vehicle."

  As a consequence of such instructions hundreds of Iraqi civilians, including women, children and the elderly die every month in Iraq and their properties are destroyed.

  As Blair’s coalition forces daily kick in doors to Iraqi homes as seen of TV and blast away at any resistance real or imaginary these are considered legitimate counter-insurgency measures. When conducted by Serb security forces it is Genocide!

  In neither case may I add is it just. But when faced with terror security forces do bad things: that is the nature of the beast and in the case of the KLA an oft-declared intention.

  This being so how can Blair’s New Labour mate Richard May, presiding Judge at the trial of Milosevic, not see the ridiculous nature of these charges against Milosevic - even supposing they are true.

  And more to the point why is it that the real villains, the Leaders of the KLA terror campaign which continues under Nato control, are not on trial at The Hague?
  
  Peter Taylor
  Herts/UK

• Monday October 13, 2003 at 8:32 am
  Peter Taylor,

  why take it for granted, that Judge May (or his colleagues) cannot see "the ridiculous nature" of the charges against Milosevic?
  
  Godfred Louis-Jensen
  Copenhagen
  D E N M A R K

• Monday October 13, 2003 at 8:36 am
  "Chetnik leader Mihajlovic treated Jews as Communist agents."

  "the antisemitism of the “hero” is irrelevant"
  
  1 2
  Canada

• Monday October 13, 2003 at 8:39 am
  
  Godfred

  So the answer to my question is that May is biased.

  Either way he is disqualified.
  
  Peter Taylor
  Herts/UK

• Monday October 13, 2003 at 9:05 am
  "Hatred of Muslims is the 1990s' version of the anti-Semitism of the 1930s that led to the extermination of Europe's Jews. Just as many Europeans were overtly or secretly happy during the Nazi era to be rid of the Jews, so today some modern Europeans actively or tacitly support the latest campaign by Serbia's Muslim-hating racist regime to impose a "final solution" to the "problem" of the Balkan Muslims."
  
  1 2
  Canada

• Monday October 13, 2003 at 9:12 am
  "Can't one describe Milosevic as a Führer? They say he is a man fascinated by power, which he identifies with "the Serbian cause." Doesn't that remind you of "the Jewish question"? I'm horrified examples of anti-Albanian propaganda that look exactly like Hitler's anti-Jewish propaganda. When Serbs talk about Kosovo they say: "Yes, we do have nice monuments there, but remember, it's full of dirt and contagion." Why, that's nothing but a slight modification of the slogan: "Jews -- that means dirt, lice and typhus"."
  
  1 2
  Canada

• Monday October 13, 2003 at 9:46 am
  Peter Taylor,

  yes, - indeed we cannot exclude the possibility of Judge May being biased, stupid - or even being both. That I suppose would be one reason why a Presiding Judge has to colleagues to form a trial chamber?

  We have established as a deplorable fact, that on the whole the "trial" against mr. Milosevic is unfair. For one thing it would be preferable of course if the ICTY were staffed entirely with brilliant people, up to the challenge. However should we not discuss the consequences of their work, their conduct, rulings etc. - rather than their (individual) personalities?

  I believe that the crucial hour comes when at the end of the Prosecutions (worse than ridiculously!) long drawnout case the Trial Chamber has to assess, whether or not the Prosecutors have proven their point sufficiently well for the "trial" to proceed.

  Contrary to a number of discussion participants, who (like MP, October 10, 2003 at 8:38 pm) contend that "Milosevic was condemned long time ago", I trust that he may be aquitted from the present charges concerning "Kosovo".

  That remains to be seen of course - but when it happens I would (want to be able to) credit Judge Richard May and his colleagues for their qualifications, - their intelligence and openmindedness.
  
  Godfred Louis-Jensen
  Copenhagen
  D E N M A R K

• Monday October 13, 2003 at 10:16 am
  Some time ago, last October in fact, I had a Danish daily, the JYLLANDSPOSTEN, print a poster or "contents bill" which - complete with the title, logo and all - was announcing that "Milosevic is acquitted" (Milosevic frifundet!).

  May God forgive me for this trick: Exhibiting the bill I made an evening walk of the central part of Copenhagen, discussing the "news" with a number of my countrymen (who briefly speaking appeared to be neither as surprised as one might have expected, nor as well informed (or even interested) as we could have hoped for).

  A recurrent question was this: "Then who committed all the murders? What about the mass graves?"

  And that was not a dream, - I still have the poster hanging on the wall.
  
  Godfred Louis-Jensen
  Copenhagen
  D E N M A R K

• Monday October 13, 2003 at 10:27 am
  
  Godfred

  I stand in shock and awe over your admirable optimism.

  My comment, that May would have to be stupid not to recognise that the Serbian security forces did nothing that other security forces do in the same circumstances, was meant to re-inforce the fact that May is biased. What more evidence do we need other than his association with Blair: Being biased surely is his conduct?

  If Milosevic was going to be acquited May would have dismised the case by now and he has the evidence to do so. At least he would have disqualified himself.

  By the time this trial concludes, if Milosevic has not succumed to his intolerable conditions he will have been locked up for five years!

  What sort of acquital is that?

  BTW: Flattery will get you no where with this lot.
  
  Peter Taylor
  Herts/UK

• Monday October 13, 2003 at 10:35 am
  
  < a href = "http://groups.yahoo.com/group/decani/message/77569"> Nato style ‘Democracy’ for Kosovo

  Todorovic, the only representative of Kosovo's Serb minority, said UN governor Harri Holkeri had told them it would not be correct for any member of the province's government to attend talks if the prime minister himself had decided not to.

  Once accused of cutting off a Serb soldiers head the Kosovo Albanian Prime Minister Rexhepi, in a fit of petulance or more likely by calculation, decides not to attend an important meeting on the future of Kosovo so the Kosovo Serbs are barred from having any representation although the other Albanian delegates may still attend.

  This is Nato’s Democracy for Kosovo pretty much like its Justice: BIASED

  Thus Holkeri denies the Serbs any representation at this very important meeting concerning the future of Kosovo. This is the sort of political trick the Nazis used to engage in no wonder some call it Nazo.

  The Brits, the Americans, the French, the Germans, the Dutch … and now even the Finns line up to take kicks at the Serbs.

  What the Hell have the Serbs done to deserve such treatment: apart from stand up to Islamic terrorists which the rest of the nations claim to do while actually selectively supporting them!
  
  Peter Taylor
  Herts/UK

• Monday October 13, 2003 at 10:40 am
  
  < a href = "http://groups.yahoo.com/group/decani/message/77569"> Democracy?
  
  Peter Taylor
  Herts/UK

• Monday October 13, 2003 at 11:57 am
  Peter Taylor,

  I certainly appreaciate the logic of your comments - and you may well be right, of course.

  As laymen we can agree that the trial has offered several, even maybe numerous temptations for dismissal. Yet I believe that the Judge must dismiss a case for LACK of evidence (against the accused) - and cannot do so on the basis of any evidence, that he "has" (for, say, the stupidity or ill will of the Prosecutor).

  As far as I recall some months ago the Chief Prosecutor, Carla del Ponte, was loudly announcing, that by October, this October that is, the Prosecution would come up with the decisive proof of Milosevic´s guilt of "genocide" in Bosnia (I have forgotten the date of that announcement, and lost the document but maybe you or someone else could assist here?).

  In any case this evidence, still pending, may be exactly what Judge May is waiting for to be brought up the rear?

  I personally think that the mChamber should have stopped the "trial" by April this year, at the end of the one-year extension of the Prosecutions case (which May clearly granted commenting that "no trial should take any longer than that", remember?).

  But as it were, - what else could the Presiding Judge do but toawait the emergence of Clara del Pontes decisive evidence this October?

  And on the other hand: If this evidence does not emerge now, within a fortnight, - then what else can the Trial Chamber do but dismiss the case altogether?
  
  Godfred Louis-Jensen
  Copenhagen
  D E N M A R K

• Monday October 13, 2003 at 11:57 am
  Peter Taylor,

  I certainly appreaciate the logic of your comments - and you may well be right, of course.

  As laymen we can agree that the trial has offered several, even maybe numerous temptations for dismissal. Yet I believe that the Judge must dismiss a case for LACK of evidence (against the accused) - and cannot do so on the basis of any evidence, that he "has" (for, say, the stupidity or ill will of the Prosecutor).

  As far as I recall some months ago the Chief Prosecutor, Carla del Ponte, was loudly announcing, that by October, this October that is, the Prosecution would come up with the decisive proof of Milosevic´s guilt of "genocide" in Bosnia (I have forgotten the date of that announcement, and lost the document but maybe you or someone else could assist here?).

  In any case this evidence, still pending, may be exactly what Judge May is waiting for to be brought up the rear?

  I personally think that the mChamber should have stopped the "trial" by April this year, at the end of the one-year extension of the Prosecutions case (which May clearly granted commenting that "no trial should take any longer than that", remember?).

  But as it were, - what else could the Presiding Judge do but toawait the emergence of Clara del Pontes decisive evidence this October?

  And on the other hand: If this evidence does not emerge now, within a fortnight, - then what else can the Trial Chamber do but dismiss the case altogether?
  
  Godfred Louis-Jensen
  Copenhagen
  D E N M A R K

• Monday October 13, 2003 at 11:58 am
  Peter Taylor,

  I certainly appreaciate the logic of your comments - and you may well be right, of course.

  As laymen we can agree that the trial has offered several, even maybe numerous temptations for dismissal. Yet I believe that the Judge must dismiss a case for LACK of evidence (against the accused) - and cannot do so on the basis of any evidence, that he "has" (for, say, the stupidity or ill will of the Prosecutor).

  As far as I recall some months ago the Chief Prosecutor, Carla del Ponte, was loudly announcing, that by October, this October that is, the Prosecution would come up with the decisive proof of Milosevic´s guilt of "genocide" in Bosnia (I have forgotten the date of that announcement, and lost the document but maybe you or someone else could assist here?).

  In any case this evidence, still pending, may be exactly what Judge May is waiting for to be brought up the rear?

  I personally think that the mChamber should have stopped the "trial" by April this year, at the end of the one-year extension of the Prosecutions case (which May clearly granted commenting that "no trial should take any longer than that", remember?).

  But as it were, - what else could the Presiding Judge do but toawait the emergence of Clara del Pontes decisive evidence this October?

  And on the other hand: If this evidence does not emerge now, within a fortnight, - then what else can the Trial Chamber do but dismiss the case altogether?
  
  Godfred Louis-Jensen
  Copenhagen
  D E N M A R K

• Monday October 13, 2003 at 12:45 pm
  
  Want to bet on it Godfred?
  
  Peter Taylor
  Herts/UK

• Monday October 13, 2003 at 12:47 pm
  
  Nato/KLA/KPC terrorists arrested in Serbia.

  This is Blair’s new improved reformulated Kosovo where the police force comprises, at least in part, terrorists. The two KPC members who blew themselves up planting a bomb on a bridge in Kosovo were not an aberration this is the very essence of the KLA/KPC. Can you credit it: four more terrorists discovered to be members of Kosovo’s so-called police force committing murder and placing bombs in public places including schools - in a neighbouring territory.

  When will del Ponte recognise that her failure to indict the leaders of the Kosovo terror campaign leads to more atrocities such as the recent slaughter of innocent civilians: to wit the elderly family chopped to death in their beds and the children attacked with a machine-gun whilst swimming. No culprits have ever been found for crimes such as these and never will be while the policemen themselves are the culprits.

  Is it so difficult for del Ponte to comprehend that if criminals may practice with impunity they will continue to do so. Does she not understand her duties: that there can be no justice until she calls to account those at the head of these criminal activities.
  
  Peter Taylor
  Herts/UK

• Monday October 13, 2003 at 1:54 pm
  Walter Trkla wrote:
  "...the thing you want Jared to do among the Jews you need to do among the Poles since the Serbs are very bitter with the Polish culpability in the attack on their nation. "

  How can you compare Polish involvement with Jewish involvement? Everybody is responsible including the Poles. We all know it, why repeat ourselves? A lot of Poles and others think like you and me; the whole of Greece is on the Serbian side and what difference has it made? None. But if Jews would take the Serbian side in the same way that they started the anti-Serbian havoc -- because they started it, if you remember Harff's statement -- this would make the difference. I want Jewish demonstrations in favour of Serbs; I want a Jewish apology for what happened. I know that Jared has no particular chance of achieving this but somebody has to start somewhere, somehow. All the rest is coffee table talk. We remain prisoners of our peace of mind and comfort.

  In Europe, and not only in Europe, the Serbian cause is mostly popular among right wingers and anti Semites. Why? Because there is an invisible handful like Jared who repent for those who are really guilty. As Martin Luther King said, "I have a dream," let's have a dream that those like Jared multiply.

  My apologies to those who consider that this page should be dedicated only to Milosevic. I have great sympathy and respect for Milosevic and this has put me in conflict with many Serbs. But I deeply believe that Milosevic would approve this discussion as an indirect contribution to his cause.
  
  W. Markiewicz
  Canada

• Monday October 13, 2003 at 2:48 pm
  "All surveys of American Jewry place the Holocaust way ahead of any other factor in Jewish self-identity."
  
  2 3
  Canada

• Monday October 13, 2003 at 2:51 pm
  "For them, Jews are nothing more than a social construct of antisemites, an occasion for the fevered conspiracy theories of Jew-haters."
  
  3 2
  Canada

• Monday October 13, 2003 at 2:55 pm
  "Antisemites, even imagined ones, provide confirmation that one is a proud, loyal Jew, linked to all those other Jews throughout history, who knew too well what real Jew-hatred was."
  
  3 2
  Canada

• Monday October 13, 2003 at 3:41 pm
  I am surprised that nobody here tried to explain the very important news that lord Owen will testify beginning next month at the trial ,not as a witness for the prosecution but for judges.

  Everybody here knows that Milosevic several time recalled the court that he fully accepted the lord Owen's proposal to end the war.

  His testimony should be consequently very favourable to the accused because it is ridicoulus to think that a man who accept a peace solution would than commit genocide.

  It is questionable WHY David Owen has been summoned.

  Could be that the court want to act as Pontio Pilato and pass to lord Owen decisive word and statement about Milosevic's willingness to commit so huge crimes in Bosnia??

  This would release them from the greatest responsability to decide if Milosevic is guilty or innocent of genocide??

  I think that everybody here agrees that a such decision is not so easy even for the most unbiased judge in the view of propaganda and political pressure from outside.

  Or maybe that the chamber got some inputs from somebody close to Nato to finish this trial before Milosevic could expose publicly during his defense the crimes of Clinton,Blair etc..??

  For NATO at this stage would be the best solution.

  Everything would be put again "under carpet".

  As for the trial if it is fair or not, i would say that it is fair because it helps wilingly or not to estabilish the truth.

  Milosevic and the Serbs would have remained otherwise branded in history the only "butchers" and "rapists" of Yugoslavia.
  
  serjoe b
  italy

• Monday October 13, 2003 at 3:58 pm
  "Owen, who got to know Karadzic and his methods well during thirty-two months as the European Union's chief mediator in the Balkans, is not prepared to say whether the Bosnian Serb leader is a war criminal. Such a determination, he believes, is for the International War Crimes Tribunal in The Hague to make." Roger Cohen
  
  1 2
  Canada

• Monday October 13, 2003 at 4:23 pm
  An example as how is BBC still poisoned with antiserbian propaganda:

  Just read the headlines regarding the incoming talks betwen Kosovo and Serbia in Wien:

  A) Kosovo premier (Rexhepi)pulls out of talks.

  B) Serbia threatens talks boycott.

  SHAME ON YOU BBC, once, long time ago a decent boadcasting company.
  
  serjoe b
  Italy

• Monday October 13, 2003 at 4:49 pm
  

  Del Ponte calls for arrests | 22:16 | Beta

  LUXEMBOURG -- Monday - Hague Tribunal Prosecutor Carla Del Ponte reiterated today in Luxembourg that former Bosnian Serb military commander Ratko Mladic is in Serbia while former president Radovan Karadzic is floating between the Republic of Srpska and Montenegro. She also claimed that Croatian fugitive Ante Gotovina is in Croatia “having a pleasant summer vacation on a yacht”. The owner of that yacht, said Del Ponte, is known to her investigators. She told journalists that if Gotovina is not arrested by the spring she would ask the European Union to review Croatia’s membership prospects. The prosecutor underlined the connection between war crimes and organised crime, saying that in many cases organised crime grew out of war crimes. She also claimed that Serbian Prime Minister Zoran Zivkovic had threatened to cut all cooperation with the Tribunal if new indictments were brought, and alleged that the Serbia-Montenegro Foreign Ministry had denied access to archives before 1996. This meant, she said, military archives on the war in Bosnia and Croatia were out of reach, seriously hindering investigations, particularly in the case of Slobodan Milosevic. Del Ponte also announced that new indictments would be raised, including two against former Albanian members of the Kosovo Liberation Army. She added that she regarded this as highly significant and that the gathering of data in these cases was extremely difficult.
  
  Dan B
  Canada

• Monday October 13, 2003 at 8:19 pm
  Carla , again¡ steping on the same stone? deadlines for this deadlines for that , can't you realize you were wrong from the very beginning , you still have time to rectify , be brave , recover the lost respect and besides "un bel fuggir tutta la vita scampa" ciao¡
  
  M P
  Rep de Panama

• Monday October 13, 2003 at 8:38 pm
  

  12

  In your previous post you told us whose qoute you used.

  What's wrong with you?

  Or, do you want us to grasp your intelligent qoutations? In which case you are very naive.

  Or, do you want to be Our Nightmare? In wich case you are far less intelligent than your qoutations.

  Or, are you doing it just for fun? In which case I would like to give you a real name:

  (a) FART (in the) WIND
  
  ivko rig
  Yougolove

• Monday October 13, 2003 at 9:00 pm
  

  Imagination does not seem to be the forte of this forum. Nope!

  Most of quotes are perfectly traceable and in a clear context where they make a lot of sense: persevere!
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Shangri-La

• Monday October 13, 2003 at 10:15 pm
  "Obsenity is the crutch of inarticulate mother fuckers."
  
  2 3
  Canada

• Monday October 13, 2003 at 10:16 pm
  Mr. Godfred Louis-Jensen

  I would have liked to answer sooner but because of my slow link I could not get on the Forum until now.

  Several things have to be cleared: 1) There seem to be two D. Jovanovic’s on this Forum. One lives in Canada whereas I live in Illinois. From now on I will add to my last name ,” Physicist”

  Second you asked of me the question what Srebrenica has to do with Milosevic? Obviously nothing and it is only used to demonize all Serbs. Hence my own interest, for I am a Serb but have lived in US last 50 years.

  I was trying to get some information about parallel trials going on in Hague where two Serb officers are “admitting” to the crimes of Srebrenica, even going so far as to claim that the massacre was planned. Latest New York Times article by Marlise Simons claims that.

  However her article did not report that in the process of plea bargaining the fellow Nikolic admitted that he was lying. This is reported by an article by Institute for War and Peace reports.

  For that reason I thought that some of the people here who may be following the Hague processes may have better information than I who only gets article via Internet.

  Many on this Forum are engaged in only the trial of Slobodan Milosevic. I am interested in the broader picture. Why are the Serbs demonized in the media ? We by now know that Markale , and “bread line massacre” in Sarajevo were fabrication. The rape of Muslim women was fiction. Vukovar has a more rational explanation. The only item left is the “massacre of 7000 Muslim males in Srebrenica. I would like to get to the bottom of it and accept the guilt if that was really true.
  
  D. Jovanovic, physicist
  USA

• Monday October 13, 2003 at 10:31 pm
  

  "Not for the first time, the Secretary-General reminds Israel that the disproportionate use of force in densely populated areas is not compatible with international humanitarian law,"
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Shangri-La